This is Thunderdome, the unmoderated open thread on Pharyngula. Say what you want, how you want.
Status: UNMODERATED; Previous thread
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
This is Thunderdome, the unmoderated open thread on Pharyngula. Say what you want, how you want.
Status: UNMODERATED; Previous thread
joey
It seems you can’t imagine right now how and why couples are subject to social priming to split child caring and income earning responsibilities in the way that all the people in your group have “freely chosen” to do. What if you’d grown up in an environment where it was entirely possible, natural and socially acceptable to do otherwise.
Have a read of this article. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/9909545 Then think back to before the first child arrived on the scene – whether for your own or for another family you know. If such a scheme had been well known and operating successfully for a decade or more, are you quite sure that every single family you know who lives much as you do would have made exactly the same choices if they had these options available? If not, why not? If yes, why is that?
I guess there’s one thing I could correct and one thing I could clarify about that comment.
Correction: I did not, in fact, write ‘argument from consequences’ in Latin.
Clarification: an argument from consequences is one type of appeal to emotion. That’s the connection betwen the part SS pulled and the part she left out.
Given what goes on on 99.999% of the internet, I’m glad to be part of the laughing stock.
Which parts are misquoted? Either of these
?
Or this
Which of these are misquoted?
If you are going to lie, at least aim for something that is a little harder to check (like reading the actual quotes in comments).
Abear, why don’t you spend some time telling rape victims that they are responsible for their rapes. I fucking dare you!
Oh, the abuse that he suffered, being told that not only was he wrong. He was continuing the harm done to these people.
How brave of you to stand up for those truly abused.
*spits venom*
*snicker* Slander, by definition, excludes statements of opinion. Crack open a (legal) dictionary, troll.
Is “Pharyngula has become the laughingstock of the Internet” the fall-back position for someone who has no actual argument these days?
So boring.
Parrowing
Thank you for sharing your story. I am deeply sympathetic that you have had to deal with two such assholes.
Would you consider telling the asshole who contacts you to “Fuck off, rapist! Never contact me again.” and threaten to report them? Sad but true, abusive people fear having their abuse exposed far more than they care about not being abusive.
——
On a related note, I too have been raped. I have not reported it. For many years I did not even consider it a rape because I stopped trying to escape when he carried me into the bedroom and locked the door.
(also because I was wearing a short skirt, and had alcohol in my bloodstream)
I cannot express my gratitude to the horde for opening my eyes to rape culture, and giving me a voice to say that what happened to me was rape…and was in no way my fault.
Unfortunately this does not erase the shame I feel at having been raped. I wish there was a way to silence that evil blame demon once and for all. I know that I am not to blame, but when people like PaulW start in with the apologia, the demon is fed and I will spend days trying to wrestle it back into its cage.
So I wonder, if rape victims could report their rapes without fear of being further traumatized, and with an assurance that justice would be done, would it prevent us from developing PTSD, or make recovering from PTSD easier?
Tethys:
Safe hugs to you.
Thank you to everyone for the hugs and kindness.
On the bright side, if there is one, the ex-boyfriend who raped me never for a second denied exactly the nature of what he had done. At least not to me. That was huge in me believing that what he did was rape and that I was, in fact, guiltless in it.
…yet I’m still getting tightness and pain in my chest from thinking about it. I might hide out in the Lounge for a while.
Tethys
*hugs* and clenched survivor-solidarity tentacles.
I keep having a real approach/avoidance thing with threads that go down this road. I feel like I can be of help* but it can hurt so damn much.
* for an unusual definition of help, anyway.
Abear:
Did you even read the NYT thread? Do you know why people were criticising Paul? Do you understand victim blaming? Do you have any concept how horrible rape is? Do you care at all about people having to struggle for the rest of their lives trying to cope with being raped? Do you have citations on how Pharyngula is a laughing stock of the Internet?
I could go on, but seriously, you come here making bold assertions, defending a rape culture apologist (rather than showing one ounce of concern for the people who have actually been harmed-poor Paul got such a raw deal, what with people criticising him…::eyeroll::). What the fuck is wrong with you? Take your Bizarro World empathy and shove it.
hugs and clenched tentacles right back atcha Og and Portia
Caine has it right. We are legion. Its so fucking depressing.
Tethys, Portia, Parrowing, Caine, Pteryxx:
Thank you all for sharing your stories with us. I am so sorry for what you all went through. Whether it is hugs you need or an ear to just listen, I am here. I care.
It is a damned good thing that you are here and is intellelectually honest enough to parse out Paul W’s word and point out just how mistaken we all are.
Fuck off, troll.
Then learn how to read and comprehend material. It was nothing but victim blaming. Or, you can acknowledge your illiteracy.
Abear:
You have decided for all of us that Paul’s comments were not victim blaming. Based on what? What is your understanding of the concept, and how the fuck does it trump anyone else’s? There are people in this thread who have experience with victim blaming . What do you have to offer? Detached philosophical musings ala Paul?
Fuck you too buddy.
Oh yeah, abear?
::spits venom::
Fucking insensitive douchebag
Fuck you and your ‘bitchez be hysterical’ bullshit abear! Where the fuck do you get off telling Janine to calm down? You patronizing scumbag. Damn. Where did you learn how to act like a human?
abear
Fuckety fuck fuck fuck!! Did you read anything in that thread except Paul’s mental masturbation? It’s been explained dozens of times by many people exactly how what Paul (and you) is doing is victim-blaming rape apologia. I even distilled it down to a simple syllogism 22 post back, bottom of the last thread. I don’t know how it can be made clearer than that. Given this, I can arrive at no conclusion but that you are here as a rape apologist who is deliberately trying to continue the harm that Paul was doing. Fuck off and never come back, scumbag.
Actually, yes… IIRC there’s some evidence that recovery from PTSD is correlated with emotional support and validation. again IIRC (because when I get triggered, my brain shuts down) PTSD recovery’s aided by formal reporting support (in the military) or by the availability of supportive counseling (partner abuse). There’s cites buried somewhere, probably.
Thanks for the hugs, and the load-sharing, legion and allies.
shorter abear: apologize to your betters, bitches! how dare you disagree with an All-Knowing Penis! Pay attention to ME! warable garble raowooedfaf.
abear:
So if I ignore my emotions, cancel my personal history, pretend that nothing happened, I will understand that Paul’s argument in which he claimed that one’s actions are a ’cause’ of one’s rape, that I will accept that yes, I really was to blame for my rape? Fuck you. I do not need, nor do I want, some non-emotional Vulcan telling me that I need to look at my rape clinically, without emotion, intellectually. I was raped by my cub scout leader for over two years. Oral rape. Anal rape. Child pornography. He used me as a tool to hurt others, including a girl who was, maybe, four or five or six years old. He used alcohol, peer pressure, guilt, coercion, violence and instruction to keep me, and other scouts, silent. Don’t tell me that I should not react emotionally to what happened. Don’t you dare tell me, or any other victim, that if we look at our rape dispassionately, we will understand that our decisions were part of the cause of that rape. Paul engaged in victim blaming. I do not need him to help pile on guilt, self-loathing, and anxiety (I can do that quite well on my own).
So why did I never tell? Why did I force this into the back of my brain for more than thirty years? What have I been fighting for the past year and a half as the memories came back? I’ve been fighting the idea that it was my fault because I joined the scouts. It was my fault because, some of it, I enjoyed. It was my fault because I didn’t quit scouts, or report him, or run away. I knew that I would never be believed, or would be blamed, because of the rape culture that I had already absorbed at 8, 9, 10 years old. The same rape culture that you, and, though he may not have intended to do so, Paul W. are supporting.
So fuck you. Please leave.
abear, do you come here often to drop your shit on the carpet? This isn’t the woods, you know, decent people hang out here.
abear, Paul was actually treated with kid gloves and quite leniently (too much, in fact), all things considered, because he has a past history of good commenting here.
You are not Paul.
Ogvorbis
Damn, it looks like I can’t blockquote or preview today. The second paragraph is mine.
And this is THUNDERDOME!!
*Breaks two liquor bottles and brandishes the jagged necks.*
I WILL cut you abear, you stupid fucking troll.
Lofty, this is not the first time that abear left shit here.
abear,
You are hurting people. You may not care about these people you are hurting, but I do. Please, shut the fuck up. Leave. Or are you going to keep consciously causing harm?
I get that trolls do their thing for shits and giggles, but there has to be a point when it’s enough. Where you cross some line of decency that even you can’t ignore and realize that there are real actual people hurting because of you. Do you consider that fun?
Janine
I thought I’d seen that nym around before, and not in a good way, but I’m terrible with names even when I have faces to connect them to.
Backing what Carlie said; most of the long timers were very surprised with this thing with Paul W. He has been seen as being one of the most insightful persons here. And speaking only for myself, hopefully he can understand the reaction to what he was saying. But this episode is extremely regrettable.
And a known troll demands that people apologize for the abuses that Paul W recieved.
*spits venom*
(And don’t you fucking dare tell me to calm down. I am quite calm, fuck you very much.)
mildlymagnificent:
Thank you for the link. If the US government was willing to pay fathers 240 days of paternity leave, then I would have taken advantage of that benefit ALL FOUR times. Why? Simple answer. Because I value the happiness and well-being of my family much more than my career, not to mention that there would be little financial impact on the family for me to stay home those 240 days. Absolute no-brain decision for me. I think only an uncaring buffoon of a husband/father would NOT take advantage of such a generous benefit.
I fail to see the point you’re trying to make. In fact, the link and my answer helps reinforce my point. My decision to take advantage of paternity leave every time would be made despite any “societal pressures” on men. But men don’t have the same societal pressures to stay home as women, you might object. Well, yes. In fact, one can even argue that the societal pressures on men are the exact opposite; that the pressures are on men to remain at work. Yet, I would make the decision to take paternity leave all four times, DESPITE these pressures. Simply because I value my family over what society thinks. Same goes for those Swedish fathers in that article.
So, abear
Do you get a fucking powertrip from triggering and hurting rape survivors?
Apparently, which makes you a shitty asshole.
You are scum.
You obviously don’t have enough brains and skills and treats in real life that would give you any kind of recognition so you go on the internet to prey on people when they are vulnerable.
Pathetic.
Who the fuck are you to ignore society and claim the only values for your family, and then attempt to apply those values to society with your wanking here? EGO. Your ego is bigger than your intellect.
Nerd:
What are you talking about?
I think it is obvious abear wants to “challenge the Pharyngula orthodoxy”, but doesn’t want to be called what he is when he does so, especially in the offensive manner he engages us. He is always free to say “this is what I think, and this (link) is the evidence to back it up”, but in his case he knows there is no evidence. Hence his attitude.
God damn. Joey buy a clue. Shit buy an entire warehouse of them. Go read up on patriarchy and gender essentialism. You are not some special snowflake who can miraculously detach himself from the insidious SUBTLE AND PERVASIVE social gender roles. Especially since you do not even understand the concept. You keep acting like this is something you can just say no to. In many ways it is like being indoctrinated into a religion from birth. You are steeped in it. Your wife is. I am. It is all around us. Much of it is unspoken.
It is commercials with women caring for children or doing the cleaning at home.
It is images of men and hunting.
It is advertisements for cars using scantily clad women.
It is the assumption that women are natural caregivers.
It is the continuation of the trope of men as ‘unemotional’.
It is the expectation that women will take the last name of their husband.
The influences of patriarchy in our society run deep. For fucks sake, educate yourself. Al you are doing is displaying your ignorance and unwillingness to learn.
Janine @532, yeah, I know, just if a troll has such an obvious nym I can’t help myself sometimes.
(back to lurking)
Tony:
And I have never denied this.
Let’s turn the discussion on its head. Let’s instead focus on the women who refuse to stay home and instead choose to go to work after having children.
Now, don’t you think these women freely chose to go to work despite all the patriarchal pressures of society?
joey: why do you think there wasn’t paternity leave available for you, when other places have it (and many men want it and would use it)?
Do you think social pressures might have something to do with whether companies or countries offer paternity leave in the first place?
Well, until you back up your OPINION with evidence, it is still and will be victim blaming.
Gee, haven’t you figured out that it never, ever, goes away? Which is why one should never even imply that the rape victim was in any way at fault for what happened to them. Which is what Paul said.
But remember, it was Paul W who was abused here.
*spits venom*
Oh FFS, who cares what you believe? How stupid can abear be to (supposedly) have read the entire thread, yet manage to miss Pauls repeated victim blaming?
Ogvorbis:
And I have yours, Ogvorbis. Always. One of the reasons I was so upset was that I was feeling terribly guilty that Paul got the chance to stomp all over people again and set off triggers all over the damn place.
::takes a break beating his head against the brick wall that is joey::
abear: despite the well desrerved stream of invective I have thrown your way, I also posed some questions I notice you have not answered.
Key among them: do you know what victim blaming means?
Here is a good illustration (several actually):
TRIGGER
WARNING
http://socialistworker.org/2013/01/07/victim-blaming-system-excuses-rape
(In case anyone wonders, no I do not think abear will learn anything, but perhaps there are lurkers who will)
atroll
That’s nice. I don’t believe that gravity affects me. Mind, I still accelerate towards the earth’s surface at a constant 9.80665 m/s sq. Whether or not you believe something has no bearing on whether it’s true. Do you understand what the term victim-blaming refers to? Are you really this unable to learn, or are you just an asshole? /rhetorical question
Tony:
I think that you presented a very important concept. The audience for a post consists of more than the person you are addressing. The addressee’s have often stopped (or never started) listening and are preaching something, usually presuppositional nonsense, mindlessly. The audience also consists of those who just read the threads without contributing, and are looking to learn something. I see nothing wrong with addressing them directly, like a theatrical aside.
Nerd:
I took a leaf out of your book to be honest. I meant to thank you a while back for bringing this idea to my attention.
Parrowing, *hugs & empathy*
Yes, that was rape. It’s never easy to deal with it, even when we stuff it away and build all kinds of walls around it. Rape culture is so normalized that a whole lot of men never think or question their sense of entitlement, they simply take what they want at the expense of other people.
As it has been noted many times, intent is not fucking magic. And once a dozen or so comments are made, and a commenter still defends his position and how it’s not meant to hurt anyone over people telling him he is hurting them… well then the good intentions are brought into question.
I wanted to install killfile, but it’s not working! *pout* I get an error message when I try to run it. Blah.
abear:
*headdesk* *headdesk* *headdesk*
Let’s try that again…
What was wrong about the place, abear? Try and explain what was wrong about it. The place, that is.
Sally:
Holler at SG – last time mine wouldn’t work, he got me to a script which did.
abear:
Once again…scratch that.
You DO NOT UNDERSTAND VICTIM BLAMING.
Paul’s talk about causation, i.e. being in the wrong place is one of the textbook examples of victim blaming.
Fuck, I think I am going back to arguing with joey. At least he isn’t engaging in hurtful, triggering bullshit.
Pteryxx:
I guess all those people sexually assaulted in their OWN HOMES were in the wrong place too, huh (using abear and Paul’s contorted version of logic)?
Ibis’s relating the argument she had with a rape apologist last night brought up an incident which happened to me when I was 18. It was one of those that I classified as “not rape” in my head, especially given what had happened when I was 16 – in comparison, it was “not so bad”. It might help Parrowing a bit, too, given I was in a situation with full consent, yada, yada, yada.
However, I won’t go into detail as long as that know troll ‘abear’ is here. I’m in no mood to listen to rivers of shit over any particular experience of mine, I’m in no mood to hear how it was all my fault, I’m in no mood for a pathetic, twisted assclam who gets their jollies by attempting to degrade those who have been raped. Yes, it’s a great silencing tactic and unfortunately, it works. Perhaps I should work on Legion today.
Thank you, Caine ♥
Gods of Mount Olympus, make his stupidity stop.
YES, THAT FUCKING IS VICTIM BLAMING.
When you place any responsibility for the rape in the hands of the victim, rather than completely in the rapists’ you are blaming them.
What about children that are raped at home? Wrong place?
Or maybe those women shouldn’t have worn revealing attire around that family member?
Or those women who are attacked walking to their car? Should they have ridden the bus? What about women assaulted on the bus? Should they have walked? There is no safe place or safe time or safe clothe that will prevent sexual assault. What will prevent it is people (usually men) NOT FUCKING RAPING. Nothing else.
Abear, see that word “because” in there?
That’s nothing like your analogy about driving. If a driver ran you off the road, would anyone seriously say it was “because” you chose to use the road that day?
Seriously, read that paragraph instead. Look at that word “because”. Think about what it means.
Tony: totally. I was raped in my own bed. Guess I should’ve slept on the roof.
And yeah, abear hasn’t got the faintest clue, and I shouldn’t be encouraging them.
Fuck you abear.
Fuck you to infinity and beyond.
This is supposed to be a safe place. An area where people can open up and talk about important issues without facing discrimination, bigotry, or dehumanization.
Thanks to YOU, Caine has chosen not to share her story. You have silenced her.
God, you are making me so fucking pissed off right now I am crying.
Caine, I am sorry this fuckwitted shit for brains has silenced you.
Yes is does.
By the choice of the victim. You failed to parse that, and it does blame the victim. All the causation is on the rapist. Period, end of story. Paul never admitted that truth with the verbiage he used, nor can you apparently. Making you less intelligent than us.
Yup. Only problem is, Paul was wrong. There’s no analogous relationship being doing X and getting raped as there is to driving a car and getting in an accident. There is, unfortunately, various states of being over which people generally have little or no control that increase the risk of being raped. Those include:
-being young
-being developmentally disabled or physically handicapped
-having darker than average skin
-living on a reservation
-being gay or lesbian or bisexual
-being transgender
-being a sex worker
-being elderly
Rapists prefer to target people who either won’t report or won’t be believed if they report. If you’re born with a female body, you’ve already increased your chance of getting raped, relative to being born with a male body, several times over. Whoops. Sucks to be you.
Not to mention, the whole “what can potential victims do to avoid being raped” question is merely asking, “how can we make sure the rapist picks someone else.” Which is, frankly, sociopathic. It’s shocking and dismaying that Paul couldn’t see that.
Oh yeah, I forgot a really important condition in which to exist which increases chances of rape: being the spouse or girlfriend or boyfriend of a rapist. Because people hardly EVER believe that rapists rape their own partners. To prevent rape, we should all live alone without talking to anybody ever.
That is blaming the victims, especially if they really didn’t have control over the choices. But then, we don’t expect you to do anything other than blame the victim. When you finally get it, all the blame is on the rapist and the society that doesn’t treat rape as severely as it should. But then, that is too much to expect from a troll.
Thanks, Caine.
And I’m sorry you’re feeling discouraged. All the hugs for you. I’ve been distracted lately.
If anyone sees SGBM, point him this way please!
Tony:
Heard variations of it, actually. Or that I was a bad kid. Or that I seduced him with my sexy, sexy eight year old ways. Also that I’m responsible for any other victims because I didn’t turn him in after everyone dismissed my first attempt to get help.
There are reasons I don’t talk about my childhood. I have a lot respect for Ogvorbis for having the guts to talk about it like he does.
Mentally ill. That’s another thing to avoid being if you want to decrease your chance of being raped. Oh, you don’t have a choice about that? Who cares? Not Paul W. and abear!
What’s the error message?
Tony:
*Squeezes Tony in hug* It’s okay, Tony. Well, it’s not, but I’ll get around to relating that particular story another time. It’s more to the point that the apologia spewed by Paul, abear and way too many others is not only victim blaming, it’s a particularly effective way to keep those who have been raped in the closet, even more afraid to speak up, because they already get the standard blaming, as well as the guilt track going around and around in their own brain, and there is a point reached where you simply feel you can’t reasonably take on any more abuse.
That’s simply one more reason we all have to speak up, scream, yell, whatever we have to do to refute these slime filled douchebags who think it’s all fine and dandy to keep piling on to those who have been raped. Normally, I’d relate my story and troll be damned, but after the marathon with Paul and dealing with the guilt for sharing responsibility for his being able to hurt people again, I’m not feeling strong enough right now.
abear:
Let’s see.
Of course, the effect we’re talking about here is rape, and the producer is the victim. When you say a person caused their own rape, you say they produced that effect. We have another word which we use to ascribe responsibility to the producer of an effect – you probably know it. It’s “blame”.
You might not like that word; you might not like that the actual effect of your attitude is to blame the victims of rape, but in a very real sense, that is what you’re doing. And when you do it – or when you defend people who do it – you harm people. You’re harming them now. Please stop.
SGBM – it says:
Line: 138
Char: 11
Error: Expected [some sort of symbol or something. Kinda looks like a quote mark with a colon in between the apostrophes.]
Code: 800A03ED
MM:
Do I ever understand that. I suppose I was terribly sexy and seductive when I was three years old. I don’t remember being seductive, but I must have been. Why else would I have been raped?
What browser are you using?
Using Chrome.
abear,
And of course language and communication are not subject to interpretation nor do they play off the mental states of those reading. There is no luxury of dispassionate deconstruction of words when things that people know at an intellectual level aren’t their fault still resonate through their lives with shit like “Why didn’t I do this?” and “How did I come to deserve that?” Rape is about control of victims, stop trying to control the responses of survivors.
abear
Yup, that’d be true.
Unfortunately for you, the thing makes you stupid is your constant, willful surrender to your confirmation bias.
The thing that makes you evil is your willingness to do demonstrable personal harm to by triggeringthe rape victims in this thread over and over again in your pursuit of an agreement that you damn well know isn’t going to come.
Good people upon hearing that they’re doing harm stop what they are doing and question their actions. Evil people keep on regardless.
Fuck you you stupid, evil piece of shit.
Caine
You are not at fault for giving Paul a way to save face. Please try to absolve yourself of any guilt for trying to be understanding and educating in the face of blatant silencing/apologia.
I couldn’t do much more than sputter with rage, and I am always grateful (and more than a bit in awe) that others can somehow push past that rage to make coherent comments.
Also, joey:
Like Tony, I’m tired of banging my head against a brick wall trying to explain some very elementary ideas to you. If I’m charitable, I’d say you have a very naïve idea of the way that individuals and society interact.
Ah. It’s only written with Firefox in mind. Some Greasemonkey scripts work automatically in Chrome, but this one needs a little help. There’s some chatter at http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Greasemonkey but I haven’t tried any of these methods.
I can only report what I think I remember — IIRC, Tampermonkey is the method that most people have used to get it working in Chrome. All I can say is go find Tampermonkey and try it. Sorry.
Thank you for repeating this Sally. I didn’t get a chance to put my oar in at the exactly right moment, but I recall Paul talking about a rape victim being “responsible” (or some such word) for keeping an eye on a bloke serving or fetching a drink for her. Otherwise we move into “cause” territory.
Nuh, uh. No, we don’t. Expressed correctly, this situation should read “Every woman who might possibly be served a drink by this man has to watch his every move.” Which gets us right back to this woman avoiding rape this time.
Tethys:
I know, I know. I don’t have to tell you how much intellectual knowledge counts, though. Shit still runs around in your head and it takes a little time to deal with it all. It would be easier to deal with if a stupid, slimy troll didn’t decide to be Paul’s standard bearer just for the fun of it, but that too will pass, eventually. Perhaps some rage-cleaning, a la Athyco would be the ticket for now – my studio is a mess.
Thank you. ♥
@joey:
Get the hint, dipshit: this is not about the personal snowflakitude of women. They’re doing the best they can with the choices they’re given – the problem is that they don’t have much of a choice to begin with. You illustrate perfectly why you’re part of the problem – elevating the self-sacrifice of women, and only of women, as a virtue, you contribute to the pressure they feel to choose childcare over personal aspirations.
You think we revile housewives; that’s just stupid – it would be like reviling poor people for not having the choice to eat three meals a day.
Or, I might be remembering wrong. If Tampermonkey doesn’t work then you can try opening up the script in a text editor (you should look for the way to do this from inside Chrome, that way you’ll edit the copy of the script that Chrome is using), and then paste this script (but not the “// ==UserScript==” and “// ==/UserScript==” lines or anything in between them) inside the killfile script, at the beginning, after the killfile’s “// ==/UserScript==” line.
Easy! ;)
Do we know that for sure? abear reads an awful lot like a sock-puppet to me, but I’m new to Thunderdome. Does he have a commenting history here, or did he just suddenly show up out of the blue to defend Paul’s “honor”?
Whoever you are, abear, GTFO with you and your hurtful victim-blaming already!
I know you don’t know me – I’ve been reading awhile and commenting in other threads, but not here. But I still want to offer Jedi hugs to Caine, Ogvorbis, and anyone else who needs them, if desired. I’m fortunate enough to have not yet been raped or assaulted (well, depends on your definition), but this bs still upsets me enough to motivate me to comment.
[relurks]
No worries, SG. I’ll give it a try. Thanks for the advice.
Viajera:
Yes, we do. ‘abear’ is a known troll; Paul W. is a long-term regular and an OM.
Well, he posted some idiocy a week or so ago, and wisely left for a while. Typical shit stirrer without anything cogent to say, even he pretends it is cogent with attitude. Typical of MRA fuckwits and their apologists…
Oh, I didn’t see this when I posted.
My brain hurts. :-P
abear has been engaging in FTBullies rage-faps for some months now, it would seem.
Welcome to the fray, Viajera. Don’t be afraid to speak up, your voice is as valuable as anyone else’s. As for definition: if it happened without your express and enthusiastic consent, it fits.
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22abear%22+site%3Afreethoughtblogs.com
Try Tampermonkey first though.
Chris:
Oh yes. They’ve been around for a while, engaging in nothing more than shit stirring.
@abear:
In the context of rape? Yes, it is.
You see, going in a dark alley causes rape as much as waking up in the morning or being born causes rape. Those “causes” aren’t really meaningful. People get raped in all sorts of situations, all sorts of times and all sorts of locations – the only thing in common between them being THE RAPIST.
Paul W was doing nothing but add noise to the discussion – noise that specifically turns away the discussion towards the attitudes of the victims. WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT EVERY OTHER RAPE APOLOGIST WHO’S EVER BEEN HERE DOES. He’s contributing to the odious culture that responsibilizes the victims with the prevention of their own rape, and by extension blames rape victims for their own suffering.
And that’s why he was being a rape apologist.
Oh abear and Paul are distinct people. The latter, from what I have heard was a well respected commenter with strongs chops in the rhetoric department. Abear…not so much.
Feel free to unlurk from time to time. The more voices speaking out against rape culture, the better. As well, those who have been at this or some time occassionally need the emotional show of support.
Well, you know, abear, if you hadn’t been in the wrong place at the wrong time, you wouldn’t have had to read what Tethys (who is not male) wrote.
Reading Pharyngula is like driving a car. You run risks.
Which is why we call them accidents, and a car accident is not analogous to being raped.
Stop ignoring the agency part of causation. Victim’s do not have agency.
Faping in public
Very uncouth
Yawn.
I’m not counting either, but you haven’t addressed my comment, fuckface.
Is that because you’re a coward, or a liar?
Compared to you rape apologist, who needs to personally apologize to every rape victim in this country who did nothing to “cause” their rapes. Which is all of them…
Get back to us when you are done apologizing for being a judgmental asshole….
abear:
People are offended because Paul W. – and now you – insist on wilfully harming people by pursuing, despite numerous requests to stop, a pointless line of mental masturbation whose only purpose was to minimise the substantive causes of rape, and to put the spotlight on the behaviour of victims. And now I’m offended because you claim that Tethys’s blatant hyperbole is somehow worse than that.
Would you go away, or at least shut up?
Oh, and abear?
If Tethys does cut you, I’ll be sure to tell whatever skin-wastes who care about you that you were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Now apologise to me, abear.
Tigger_the_Wing:
You’ve been reading Peopleware, haven’t you. ;-)
p225
abear has one tiny germ of a point there.
I wasn’t comfortable reading that violent talk but stayed silent. I shouldn’t have.
Tethys:
Could you please avoid talk like that in the future?
****
With that out of the way, abear how do you know Tethys’ gender?
Will you continue your fuckwitted dismissal of what victim blaming means?
It’s true that tribalism is contributing to my lack of concern about Tethys’ comment. Coming from someone else, I wouldn’t give it a pass.
*wishes he’d said “blatant (but still problematic) hyperbole” in #612*
TBH, I was more concerned that the liquor bottles might not have been emptied before being broken.
I don’t want to see good grog wasted on stupid commenters.
That’s probably true.
Given comments like mykeru’s in the ‘pit, I’d just say that’s just how True Skeptics™ talk.
SallyStrange:
Thats probably why I gave it a pass. Tethys has-IMO-tremendous capital built up.
That said we do occassionally get people whinging about how we try to take a moral high ground, but allow certain comments by regulars go uncriticised. Who was it that made a gendered insult a few months back (IIRC calling someone a dick). I recall a troll throwing that back at us.
Eh, I gave it a pass because it was so clearly right in the trope of a stereotypical cowboy movie bar fight. YMMV.
You’re the one who brought it up.
I do not regret that abear found my comment offensive. I find abear offensive.
I do regret that others have found it offensive, and retract the violent sentiment.
It was clearly a joke. It was the kind of joke I’d have chided a person for in a moderated thread, because there’s always a chance a person would either be a) triggered by references to violence or b) too dimwitted (or acting in insufficient good faith) to comprehend that it’s a joke. And then those people a) get hurt or b) create work for the moderator.
But unless you have the kind of Internet connection where people can stick their arms through your monitor and brandish things, which either do not really exist or someone owes me a backlog of tentacle hugs, then I’d suggest you take it as possibly ill-advised hyperbole.
I’d also suggest that whatever you do, you don’t
throw me into the briar patchcome and leave a comment on this thread, where we’re talking about a side issue of no importance to you even though I kick it off with a quote from Paul.Do you?
Do you really feel troubled, you fucking liar?
abear:
You made it relevant by assuming it. The egalitarian thing to do would be not to assume that every person you meet on the internet is automatically male.
Tony:
Oh, that’s easy. Only men are aggressive and use terms of violence.
I’ll add my voice to the “no violent rhetoric, please” chorus. I sure as hell understand it, though, especially when the frustration builds as someone like Paul or abear is allowed to cause actual harm and damage and are allowed to do it for as long as they care to keep it up. Especially when it’s quite unlikely that Tethys (or anyone else) is going to be showing up on their doorstep.
Agreed. Even when it’s clearly a joke.
And I’ve been guilty of that sort of thing far too often myself.
Also, I’m always ever so unimpressed by how rape apologists turn into whiny babes at strong language directed their way. It’s always a one-way street: “Haw haw, look at me, I can hurt you!” Insert strong language here and “Waaaaaaaaaaaaah! How dare you talk about hurting me!”
Caine – yeah, it reminds me of how marginalised people have to express themselves neutrally and dispassionately lest they get branded overemotional and hysterical, and therefore unsuited to civilised discourse.
It’s OK to say hateful and hurtful things as long as you say them politely.
Fuck that.
Now this search on abear at the Slymepit is interesting.
Ah yes, an appeal to hypocrisy, favourite go-to of the troll with a paucity of arguments. You realise of course abear, that you cannot claim the moral high-ground in a thread where you’ve demonstrably caused harm?
Theyths: That comment bothered me too.
Casus fortuitus:
Oh yes, fuck that. Fuck that very much. It starts out worse when the discussion is sexism or feminism, as the default assumption tends to be bitchez be crazy, all hysterical and stuff and when the discussion is rape, it’s worse than that, as the thousands of years of default rape culture is the default assumption, then you get into the “emotional/hysterical” territory.
Isn’t it fascinating, abear, how we react to your criticism? Clearly we are a dogmatic hivemind around here. And hypocritical to a
manperson.Chris:
Oh, he’s a pit pod. Well, someone should tell PZ, I suppose, ‘pitters get their pit star (bannination) automatically.
Ah, general internet troll who should be reviled and banhammered…What an abject loser is abear.
Sounds like he’s considered too stupid for full membership over there.
Look! Abear created his own victim card. Bless his heart.
Chris:
I didn’t go delving, I’m not…liked in those quarters. (What a surprise, eh?) I think the ‘pitters are being a tad careful at the moment, because they had someone showing up advocating killing Amanda Marcotte* – it seems that post was actually edited at the so-called bastion of freeze peach. It seems that scared them just a little.
*Per Stephanie Zvan’s recent posts.
Given that it’s PZ’s express and blanket policy to ban ‘pitizens, I saved him the work in this case since I was here and all.
Chris:
Thank you very much.
Dang, I clicked on CC’s Slymepit search. Now I need to decontaminate before I get dinner ready…
Thanks, Chris.
So if I had not been a cub scout, I would not have been raped but it still is not my fault. But you are not blaming me. Got it.
So my being in scouts put me a dangerous or Wrong circumstance which led to me being raped but it still isn’t my fault. Got it.
I know that this may sound like a really radical idea, but do you think it possible that it was not my decision to join cub scouts that caused my rape, but the decisions of an experienced predator who put himself in a position in which he could pick and choose which boys he wanted to rape? Or is blaming the actual perpetrator just too fucking scary for you?
=========
Hugs to Mellow Monkey.
Hugs to Caine. And no, you are not to blame, in any way, shape or form, for the shit that Paul and abear are smearing all over the place.
Jesus, they really do hang on our every word, don’t they?
The slymies are going over this with a fine toothed comb. As well as condemning oolon’s and Aratina Cage’s newly announced bot blocker for Twitter because people are too weak to face dissenting opinions.
Chris, you are now the hippy. Thought you would like to know.
So.
(paraphrased, obvs)
Fuck.
Fuck, no.
The difference between car accidents and acts of violence like rape is that car accidents are accidents.
If, during the investigation of a car accident, evidence suggesting that one of the drivers acted with deliberation, it is officially classed as a non-accident. And the driver is charged with vehicular homicide (or whatever). Note that this is different from driver X being cited for “failure to yield” or whatnot in conjunction with an accident – that’s a bit of legalese indicating that driver X didn’t obey the traffic law saying that driver Y had the right-of-way, and thus an accident happened. But usually, such citations are punishable by being issued a ticket. Traffic tickets are not violent crimes. They are usually misdemeanors. Evidence that a driver acted with deliberation moves it away from that territory.
As for the “if you hadn’t been [wherever], you wouldn’t have been victimized” crap, I say fuck you.
I’ve hesitated a bit about this, but:
I have never been raped. I was, however, systematically (non-sexually) abused as a child.
My abuser? Another resident of the house.
So, what was I supposed to do? At the time it started, I was nine. I’m not certain that what I went through was legally actionable (in fact, I rather doubt it).
“If you hadn’t been in that house with that person, you wouldn’t have been abused,” may be literally true.
But that is (1) singularly unhelpful, (2) bizarrely fixes agency on a nine-year-old, and (3) seems to pretend that I could have stopped it by leaving. Or having been born to a different family. Or something.
Yes, Anthony K, they do.
[Somewhat random]
A few days ago, I recommended Margaret Atwood’s The Blind Assassin.
And, having done so, went to re-read it …
Shit, but it’s really good, even when you know in advance the twists and surprises.
*Re-recommended*
Okay, back to my story. This is one I’ve never told anyone, including Mister. I still don’t really want to relate this, but it ties in directly to the reasoning used by the rape apologist Ibis was arguing with and Parrowing (as well as many others) who put incidences of rape in the “not rape” box.
When I was 18.5 or so, there was going to be a weekend house party in Long Beach attended by pretty much everyone I knew. I set up a ‘travel to and from’ with an acquaintance, I’ll call him X. Okay. X was a nice enough guy, and he did want to date me, but I hadn’t said anything about dating him one way or the other. We got to our destination, had a good time, all that stuff, then finally I wanted to crash. I was lucky and got a couch (good score for a house party!) and got some blankets, slept in my t-shirt and underwear.
Cut to early morning. I found myself waking up to find X’s fingers in my vagina. After sitting up, pulling back and yelling “what in the fuck do you think you are doing?!”, I got to hear things like “I thought it would be a nice way to wake up!” “You took your pants off!” and similar. This is the one I put in the “not rape” box. After all, it wasn’t remotely like the rape and attempted murder 2.5 years earlier. It didn’t involve a penis. He stopped after I was conscious and yelling. Yada, yada, yada. I told myself for years that really wasn’t a major deal at all.
Here’s the thing: it is a major deal. It is assault. And it should never, ever be in a person’s thoughts that it isn’t a major deal and that it isn’t assault. It’s yet another symptom of rape culture and the extent into which we ourselves buy into it. For many of us, we do, at least at one point in our lives, believe that men are entitled and that’s a bad place to be.
Jebus, Caine.
I’m sorry. :(
*hugs offered*
That’s not what Reap said, but that may have been a misunderstanding due to his illiteracy.
Jesus Christ, Caine.
I’m sorry.
Caine, the fact that it took you years to call it what it really was says a lot, none good, about our conditioning.
Am I the only one thinking that “forcing yourself on someone you know has a history of being sexually abused is extra-shitty”?
I mean, forcing yourself on someone is shitty enough. But I cannot help but think that violating the bodily integrity of someone who you know has been so violated before is an additional cherry on the shit sundae.
Esteleth:
Thank you. That one is the tough one for me. That’s the one where I really thought I was “asking for it”. It’s awful, the things we do to ourselves.
How creative of them.
I want to be as brave as Caine when I grow up.
Damn, Caine. I’m so sorry. More hugs.
Wow, Caine, that is pretty much exactly what happened to me too. That is why I say I got off sort of lightly. It was two guys, but there was no penis, and they stopped when I said stop. They didn’t stop when I woke up. So but so many people experienced so much worse! It took me a long time to call it sexual assault.
The worst part was telling my then-boyfriend and having him mad at me because I cheated on him.
Bah. Sorry. Brain is acting up.
I don’t talk about it much. One reason why is because I get a lot of “that doesn’t count” messages. It doesn’t count because it wasn’t sexual. It doesn’t count because it fails to rise to the level of being legally actionable. It doesn’t count because she is female. It doesn’t count because she was also a minor when it started. It doesn’t count because at the time she was suffering from an undiagnosed and untreated mental condition. It doesn’t count because at the time I was suffering from an undiagnosed and untreated mental condition. It doesn’t count because years later, she reached out to me and apologized. It doesn’t count because I accepted her apology and we get along decently now.
Bah.
Bad brain.
Janine:
Yeah, it does. You know what it was that got to me? The “you took your pants off”. That’s the one. I really thought that by taking my pants off to sleep, I was giving a green light for him to do whatever he wanted. I felt like I had somehow ignored a ‘rule’, therefor, my fault. And that is such a seriously fucked up way to think, it really is.
Chris, the reason you are now the hippie is because of your action yesterday, when you linked to an over four year old Pharyngula thread that you said was full of “punch the hippie”.
I guess that slymies do not much care for environmentalists.
Dammit, Sallystrange! How dare to smudge his honor in such a wanton way!
People who actually have some effect on the world are mortifying to the pathologically ineffectual.
Sally:
It’s not getting off lightly though and it’s definitely assault.
! Oh for…yeah, I’m sure that really helped.
Esteleth, of course it counts! I know you know that, but it helps to hear it when the bad brain gets going. *hugs*
And for a moment, goodness and light permeated even throughout the Thunderdome, and a wave of hugs spread ever outward.
When I broke up with him, he was consumed with guilt. So much guilt that he joined the 12 Tribes Christian cult.
*hugs* for everyone!
(well, not the doucebuckets)
Had to look that one up. Lovely group of people.
“Blessed are the cheese makers…”
Sally:
Wow. That was one hell of a reaction.
I find it very telling that abear managed to ignore every substantive point I made, and all the pain of the horde, but had no problem whingeing about being the subject of violent rhetoric.
Its as if the only important feelings are abears feelings.
Par for the course
Well, c’mon, Tethys, abear was so very, very polite while he twisted the rhetorical knife. Besides, this was all about him and his pit cred, right? We were just tools for him. Bleah.
Caine, Esteleth, I read of your experiences and my brain jumps up and starts running around. “Must fix this, must fix this, must fix THIS!” it screams until it runs headlong into the walls of reality. I can’t change the past, I can’t even substantively relieve the pain that such things visits upon its victims.
But there’s one thing I can do: stomp on the attitudes that allow that sort of self-doubt to not just exist, but to be prevalent in society.
Fuck the cries of “Dog-pilling!!!!1!!11!!”, fuck the cries of “Group-think!!!1!1!”, fuck the cries of “Tribalism!!1!1!!” this is too important to be silent about.
Thank you both, and all the others, for having the courage to share your experiences. You are being heard and it is making a difference.
FossilFishy:
Right on. The more voices the better.
Oh dear maude, I’m sorry to hear it Caine. And SallyStrange, and everyone else. Seriously, where do these d-bags get the idea that it’s okay to assault someone in their sleep (or awake, or wev) like that?
Oh, right. From people spouting the same victim-blaming rhetoric Paul and abear are spouting here. And look how well it works, too! Here we sit doubting ourselves for too long, instead of calling this crap out. No more.
Thanks for sharing your stories, I’m sure they’re going to help others who come along and think, hmmm, wait a minute.
And to expand a bit on The more voices the better, the voices of men in particular. I’m almost done with Manhood in America, and one thing is very, very clear. Men evaluate their sense of themselves, their masculinity against and with other men. Fair or not, right or not, men will listen to other men more readily. It’s why men speaking up is so crucial.
One point needs to be corrected. Chris’ link was not proof that abear is a slymie. It was proof of slymies commenting about abear’s interactions at FtB. (Some were about a comment at Crommunist’s blog.) And about half were about Tethys’ bottle breaking comments.
This will be used by the slymies to show just how hypocritical the baboons are. How dare we complain about rape imagery when we tolerate such violence on our side. Typical pitshit.
Heading off to bed.
The last two days have been tough. But I keep telling myself that it is worth doing.
Hugs to all who continue to bear witness to the evil, the banal evil, that infests our world. Be safe.
Hugs back at you, Ogvorbis. Take care of yourself.
Caine
Loads of *hugs.* You know, I’ve read up on rape culture, I know there’s all these memes floating around in our culture, but I still can’t understand a perspective where X would think that was an ok thing to do. I just don’t get what’s going on in his mind, especially with those half-assed efforts at excuses he made. I essentially cannot, in my head, characterize that as an ‘innocent mistake’ on his part, and those sound to me like the justifications of someone who knew damn well that he’d been caught doing something wrong.
When you were describing it, I got to this line, and I thought “THAT”S your excuse, asshole?! She took her pants off? Is that how you behave at a swimming pool, shithead? No? Do you just wait until you think no one else is watching? What the fuck.” The fucking things these people think fucking think justify them just make my fucking blood boil.
SallyStrange
*lots of hugs* and the above goes here too. Also:
< facepalm > What a total douchcake. Somehow I’m not surprised where he ended up.
Esteleth
Same kind of victim-blaming occurs with other types of abuse, yup. *hugs*
Mellow Monkey
*hugs* as well. I lost track of who I’d mentioned before I posted.
Hugs back, Ogvorbis. I hope your rest is restful and yes, what you’re doing is worth it.
Dalillama:
I can’t answer for Caine, and I don’t know nearly as much from an academic perspective, but here’s this bit from Caine that sheds some light:
The flip side of this is that I think “masculine culture” gives rapists permission in a thousand little ways. For instance, when a man jokes about violating a woman’s boundaries, or taking by force what a woman isn’t interested in sharing voluntarily, or any of the objectification that goes on, it is seen as men giving other men permission to think those thoughts and even act on them. Not all men, or even most men, but if you’re in a room with 10 men telling a rape joke odds are one of the men is taking it more seriously than you might think, or that the man telling the joke isn’t joking as much as looking for approval. So men telling rape jokes or laughing at them, either way it seems to me to be giving an implied “thumbs up” whether or not people intend it or realize it.
huggiest damn Thunderdome I ever seen.
*hugs Chas*
Hug off, Chas.
(Damn. I do not even engage in this internet hug bit.)
Caine, I don’t know how to say thank you for going through the pain of sharing that story so that people reading will understand how pervasive this shit is. But thank you. And Esteleth, and everyone else who has shared too.
IJoe, yes, that’s a huge part of it all.
Carlie, thank you. ♥
And HUGSES to you both, in Chas’s name.
Also de-lurking to add my voice to the comments about how disgusting the victim-blaming was from Paul W. and abear, although maybe I’m a little late. I am learning it’s important to speak up against this kind of thing wherever it turns up.
It seems like Paul W. felt like he had license to say all the things he said because he was constantly punctuating his comments with “The victim is of course 100% blameless, it TOTALLY wasn’t her fault at all, I’m not saying that, I absolutely agree it is entirely the rapist’s fault” (paraphrased). But that doesn’t work when your next comment is (and I kind of feel this needs a trigger warning, it’s that awful):
Why should it be okay to say that? What does it add? Paul accepted that there’s no way that you can use any of these ‘facts’ to help avoid a future rape, because there’s no useful correlation between any of the factors mentioned above and the occurrence of a rape. In fact, as many others have pointed out, the range of factors that crop up in relation to rape is so vast as to be entirely meaningless. You’re effectively saying: those things “caused” (ugh) that rape that time, but next time they might not “cause” a rape, or a set of entirely different things might “cause” a rape.
[Spock mode]
Now, assume I’m doing a scientific study, and I want to establish what variables affect a certain outcome. So I change around the variables in lots of different combinations and I discover no apparent relation to whether or not the outcome occurs. In fact, sometimes I use the exact same combination and I get different results every time. From an UNEMOTIONAL and LOGICAL and SCIENTIFIC viewpoint (those apparently being the superior approaches) I can only conclude one thing: none of those variables has any bearing on that outcome. In fact, some outside variable that I haven’t considered is probably causing the outcome. Moreover, if I then try and write a paper claiming that my solution changed colour because it was a Tuesday and I was playing Queen on the radio, despite having evidence that next Tuesday it stubbornly refused to change colour during Bohemian Rhapsody I would get laughed out of peer review. It’s useless information.
So why is it suddenly different with rape?
[end Spock mode]
So again I wonder what this achieves, this conversation that Paul is so intent on having? It obviously doesn’t have any practical advantage to preventing rape. It doesn’t educate people on what might cause rape.
On the other hand, it is telling that so many of us here interpreted Paul’s remarks as victim-blaming, despite his continued insistence that he definitely wasn’t blaming the victim. So it’s not an outrageous assumption to assume that most other people will also get a similar impression from that conversation. Rapists read that conversation and they read that it’s the women who ’cause’ their rapes. Potential jurors read that conversation and they read that the women’s actions might have been a contributing factor in the rape. Police officers read that conversation and they read that if the women hadn’t done these things, they wouldn’t have been raped. Rape survivors read that conversation and they read that their actions lead to their rape.
So what has that conversation achieved? It’s allowed rapists to deny responsibility for the rapes they commit. It’s enabled jurors to argue that maybe the woman’s actions lead to the rape and the rapist should be given the benefit of the doubt. It’s persuaded police officers that they shouldn’t waste their time with someone who should have made some effort to take precautions. It’s told rape survivors that it was their fault.
So why have the conversation, Paul? Why is it so important to say what you said, when it only causes harm? It doesn’t matter how careful you think you’re being. Someone, somewhere is going to use it as a justification for something that has no justification. Whether you like it or not, that discussion that was so important for you to have, has helped them do it.
Damn right you should apologise.
Hello, Have A Balloon and welcome in. (What a cheerful nym.)
It would seem that Paul felt the word ’cause’ required a serious defense. See here and here.
Thank you, Have A Balloon. That was just gloriously beautiful with sparkles on top!
o.0
So…when you were all telling Paul that his words were causing harm, what he heard was:
“the presence of your words and ideas happened, in this particular confluence of events, to correlate with some of us being harmed, but rest assured that we are not blaming your words or ideas in any way – they are 100% innocent in the matter, and should be free to continue being splatted on this thread however they choose. Additionally, the next time you express these ideas using these words, they might harm no-one, because there is nothing to suggest that the words and ideas themselves will always lead to harm in every situation, or that there is anything the words and ideas can do to stop producing harm, because that would be victim-blaming, and we’re not doing that.”
That…explains a lot.
and rather than listen, Paul chose to be a martyr for his… cause.
For what it’s worth, I agree that there were no pit posts there by abear. But it was clear he’s of that crowd. Enough for me given his conduct.
I can’t be arsed to spend more time thinking about the slymepit than backing up my friends absolutely requires. Fuck ’em. Tiny fish fighting pathetically to keep people from enlarging their pond.
Pteryxx:
Have I told you I love you recently?
Chris, I won’t be shedding any crocodile tears over abear’s absence. They were here to troll, nothing else.
Sparkles :D
Thanks for the welcome Caine, and thanks for the laugh Pterryx :)
Also another vote in the ‘really glad that abear is gone’ column.
Have a Balloon? Don’t mind if I do! Balloons are awesome.
Yes, yes they are. BALLOONS FOR EVERYBODY.
~~~~~O
Do ya suppose that Chas would be better with offering balloons rather than hugs?
Hey Chas! Have a balloon!
This reminds me of a disgusting trial I watched during law school. The skeeviest defense lawyer in town (seriously, it’s that one lawyer that everyone wishes would just…move to the Arctic) got an acquittal in a gang rape case. How did he do? He focused almost exclusively on how the young woman was at a party, and she “drank regularly” and she was at someone’s house she didn’t know, and also “ISN’T IT TRUE THAT YOUR FRIEND IS A PORN ACTRESS?” Never mind that the judge had excluded the evidence of her friend (a witness) appearing in some girlsgonewild-esque video, that didn’t stop him from theatrically waving around a DVD in front of the jury while the poor young woman squirmed on the stand. He also managed to ask a question about her working at Hooters, because, ya know, sluts lie.
Trigger warning
In order to acquit this defendant, the jury chose to believe that instead of reaching out for help while she was semi-conscious and being currently raped in a dark basement, this asshole thought she was reaching for his penis to put it in her mouth. And the jury bought it.
End TW
The jury bought it because assholes like abear and his peers spread shit like this. And the world keeps believing that some women deserve what they get.
*takes deep breath*
*joins hug circle*
Wait, wait!
[palms screwdriver]
Can I has balloon?
[bats eyes all innocent like]
Portia:
That is just one in a long line of stories that cannot be unheard. It makes me sick that we have to hear so many like that, Steubenville being the most recent, while so many rape-apologists go about their business totally oblivious that anything like that ever happens. And when we try and tell them, they refuse to listen, or just don’t care.
No balloons for them.
FossilFishy:
I will sell you a balloon for the low low price of one screwdriver.
casus:
No, I simply think our value systems are very different.
————————–
vaiyt:
Why do you say I value the self-sacrifice of “only women”? You have no evidence for that.
But other than that, yes…I do elevate the self-sacrifice of parents (both mother and father). And yes, I do think of self-sacrifice as a virtue. If you think that’s a “problem”, then I guess I am “part of the problem”…and I’m okay with that.
I’d rather say that I would like to see parents do what is best for the happiness and well-being of the family over anything else, even personal aspirations. But all families are different. For some families the best thing is for one parent to stay home, and for some the best thing is for both to earn income. Not all family dynamics are made equal, not to mention the financial situations for each family can vary greatly.
Basically, I believe the well-being of the family >> personal aspirations (of both parents), whereas it seems that many here feel that personal aspirations are paramount. This is fundamentally where our disagreements lie.
Portia, unfortunately, a skeevy lawyer isn’t necessary for such jury decisions. Juries are stuffed full of every day people who swim in the same sexism we do, they swim in the same rape culture we do. They look for ways to blame the victim and will grab onto any excuse to do so, because it’s the norm and it’s a comfortable way of thinking. It’s othering. Everyone can think to themselves (men): wow, what a slut, look at all the things she was doing! (women): wow, what a slut! That’s what happens to bad girls. Good thing I’m not like that.
Magical thinking at its finest, courtesy of how we are taught and conditioned.
You want victim-blaming? Try this
For those who want the shortened version, the headline is WOMAN DENIES KISSING FOOTBALLERS
It’s disgusting. The entire tone of the article makes it sound like the woman is on trial. And you know what. SHE IS.
Not a fan of balloons, at least the helium-filled-and-released variety.
Hugs I enjoy from people I like.
but…but…this is THUNDERDOME!!!!!!
Chas:
Oh, okay. Hey, Chas! Have a sword! Have three! Here’s a spear for good measure, man.
joey:
It has nothing to do with value systems. You still do not understand how rigid gender roles affect people on conscious *AND* subconscious levels. You think it is easy to discount both. The former can be done somewhat easily. Which is what you and your wife have done. You made that conscious decision. What you failed to comprehend is that the choices you made were influenced by the subtle influence of the patriarchy. The patriarchy that says “women stay at home”, “women, your role is babymaker“, “women defer to men” and more. These gender roles are at play all throughout society and they aren’t enforced like speed limits. The system was created long ago, and is self perpetuating. Until you become aware of sexist gender roles and work to consciously fight against them, you help to continue the oppressive system that predominately benefits men (though, as any regular reader of this blog will know Patriarchy hurts men too).
Oh yeah…*ahem* From hell’s heart I stab at thee!
Damn, they really are obsessed with everything about Pharyngula. It is bizarre in a twisted, disturbing kind of way. I mean, if none of them ever ventured here or bothered anyone at FtB, I doubt we’d have any reason to talk about them. PZ has plenty to talk about, and the Horde has plenty going on in our lives that we have no needs (or desire) to hang on every word of anyone from the Pit. If I didn’t despise those scum sucking shartheads so much, I *might* feel pity for them. >.< that much.
(I just clicked Chris' link to the 'Pit)
Caine @653:
My heart goes out to you.
The strength it took to share that with us…
I once again wish I had something tangible to offer other than hugs…
I will say this-your voice is an inspiration to me.
Tony, there is a reason why I call the slymies dull. Their existence provides the textbook example of “reactionary”.
Tony:
Thank you. Thank you very much. ♥
You know, it’s incredibly silly, and wrong, that it’s that assault that I have such a difficult time with, rather than the violent rape. I know why that is, though, it’s because of how we are conditioned from the time we are very young and that conditioning has effectively kept me quiet about it for decades. I still have a lot to learn myself.
Ugh, disgusting apologetics from abear, and pitizens hoggling over a hyperbolic threat made to him — it’s like a rerun of Wally Smith and his lies about Pharyngula over at The Intersection or You’re Not Helping. The SPit is the logical successor of Wally’s sock-puppet menagerie, with the disadvantage that it’s a hundred times larger.
“Oh, okay. Hey, Chas! Have a sword! Have three! Here’s a spear for good measure, man.”
I’ll just leave this image of a spear carrier here, for reference… *flees*
SallyStrange:
Do WHAT??!!
Fuck that.
Sorry you were assaulted and sorry your then-boyfriend was an insensitive ass.
(12 Tribes Christian cult? I don’t want to look that up, do I?)
****
FossilFishy:
I hear that. I understand that. I have wanted the same thing so many times.
I don’t remember what incident it was last year, but after some discussion at Pharyngula about rape and sexual assault, I finally started thinking about *my* loved ones. I thought about my mother and sister immediately. But this isn’t a topic you just *ask* someone. It is incredibly personal. Incredibly traumatic. I remember talking to my mother about stuff here. We discussed my growing awareness of rape culture and the incidence of rape in American society. I told her that I hope that my sister hadn’t been faced with anything.
After a short pause, I said “mom, have you…?”
After another short pause, she said “yes. I was assaulted when I was a teenager.” I think she said she was 17.
Even as I type this, it fills me with incredible anger…with tremendous sorrow. I want to hug my mother. I want to hit her attacker. I am not violent. I have never been in a fight. I avoid violent rhetoric. Even earlier today, as mad as I was, I just wanted to break things. Not hit people. But hearing my mother say that, it tore me the fuck up.
I didn’t ask anything else. I felt shitty just asking what little I did. I said I was sorry she went through that. She said she hadn’t even told her husband/my father. That made me even angrier. She shared such a deeply personal incident with me, but not her own husband. I just didn’t know how to even react. I didn’t know what to say other than “I’m sorry”.
Getting back to your comment, FossilFishy–I wanted to fix things for my mother. I just wanted to reach back in time and take away her pain. I want to do the same to Caine. And Tethys. And Pteryxx. And Portia. And Esteleth. And every. Single. Person. Who has been sexually assaulted. I know I can’t. It doesn’t change the fact that I want to. I may not be able to change what has occured in the past, but I’ll be damned if I sit back and stay silent when rape apologists spew their fucking bullshit.
No one should ever have their bodily integrity violated. Ever!
Oh, Tony. Oh. I am so sorry. So very sorry.
QFT.
So I went down to the bar, had a few IPAs and a Guinness, and my favorite bartender slips me a brownie on a little paper party plate. You could smell it from feet away; people sniffed and looked; it was one of those magical ones and I mean holy shit. So very stoned–in a good way–and therefore reposting these vids to share and offer and shit.
GD movie animation
Drinking out of cups
Dock Ellis
Think of it as a weird sort of hug.
I just wanted to say that reading this thread has made me determined to be much more proactive in speaking out against rape apologetics. To everyone who shared their experiences, I offer you some safe net hugs. You’re all so strong, though I dearly wish you never had to be.
Chas:
Weird sort of hugs are good too. Thanks for the vids.
Oops! From fifty years ago, a poster from the birthplace of jazz.
UnknownEric:
That is great.
Every voice speaking out against rape culture is a welcome, necessary one.
I wish I had a *special* brownie right now. It has been a while since I was high. Hope they were good Chas.
Chas
*hugs*
mwaahahhaahhhaahhha
Heh. I’m cooking some *special* butter for use in cookies which will go in a care package for my sweetie.
Cheers everyone.
Butter? Laced with special stuff? Where have I been all my life?
Tony:
Since you’re obviously ignorant of the Commenting Rules, I here quote the relevant section:
Melanin enriched Aussie ABC media presenter Jeremy Fernandez subjected to racist rant see :
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-08/abc-presenter-fernandez-subjected-to-15-minute-racist-rant/4508538
& in his own words :
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-08/fernandez-why-i-didnt-give-up-my-seat/4508686
Not all Aussies are racist but some, sadly, very much are and I reject and oppose (& will shame) their racist mindset.
Of course, other nations (& humans generally) also have their historical and even present day issues with racism too as this clip :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE7IID-aZko
Involving heroic Challenger astronaut Ronald McNair very well shows. Well worth watching -even if you dislike me as many do here I know.
abear:
I do not think ‘parse’ means what you apparently think it means.
(Such incompetence!)
Aw, good for you, StevoR. Here you go.
StevoR, WTF?
Are you drunk, or is your grammatical incompetence always with you?
@ old td 486. pelamun, the Linguist of Doom on the 20th of January 2013 at 2:42 am :
I’m no fan of Pauline Hanson either, think she’s a horrible person and certainly doesn’t speak for me or most Aussies.
Have you seen this :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDwsBv-jjQU
Satirical clip for example mocking her?
PS. Haven’t yet read any of the comments here. Apologies if someone has already posted the info / links at #735. Cricket on again now so going offline after this and for the rest of the night.
“Melanin enriched”?
<snicker>
(What, he has a suntan?)
John:
I’ve read the rules. Thank you.
I stand by my comment. Despite the fact that PZ emphasizes The Lounge as the safe space, I think it is important that those of us who choose to do so condemn people like abear wherever we find them. I want people like him to be pushed to the fringes. I want them shamed. I want them ostracized. Their odious mentality is toxic and not welcome. All that is to say that I think even the Thunderdome should be free of their bullshit. It may not be through any action on PZ’s part (and I take no issue with that), but nothing says the commentariat cannot shame those fuckers.
Melanin enriched??
Paul posts and leaves.
Abear replaces him and is banned.
Now SteveoR is back.
As the Shit Churns…
Tony, there is always shit. It is how we deal with it that tell us who we are.
Caine:
I did that once, and duly paid for it.
(And not from the usual suspects, either :|)
Hasn’t and won’t stop me from speaking up, but, well: “once bitten twice shy”.
Janine:
Very true.
It’s just that sometimes the shit is thick.
Tony:
And I stand by mine, and it is you who is wrong.
Blindly and stupidly wrong, even.
Tell me, what part of “Like it says: open brawling permitted and encouraged. Say what you want, be as vicious and personal as you want, make people bleed metaphorically.” makes you imagine it’s supposed to be a safe space?
(My emphasis)
John:
Tony isn’t ignorant of the rules. It’s obvious you chose to go all pedantic when I’m pretty sure you knew damn well what Tony meant. It’s an unpleasant thing to do, given the context of what has been going on here in the angry dome lately. It’s not as though you’re unaware of it, either.
If you must point blame, point it at me. I’m the one who stated I didn’t feel safe in posting a relevant story as long as there was a rape apologist present and active. I certainly know the rules and I know the angry dome isn’t the designated safe spot, however, the discussion happened here, and when the discussion involves people who have been assaulted and abused, I don’t much give a shit if it’s outside the designated safe spot – this is Pharyngula, where we make a concentrated effort to make people feel safe and alright.
John:
In the mood to hurt, I see. Have a cookie, John.
John:
I’m rather shocked at your response. To the extent that I find myself unsure what to say…
I note the Fernandez piece to which StevoR linked includes this statement: “Fernandez described the incident as “my own Rosa Parks moment” and said he wished his two-year-old girl had not been there.
“I thought, ‘Oh my God, this is the introduction of a lifetime of her understanding what hate is about’.””
Tony:
Don’t bother. This is one of the times to ignore the goad.
Aaaw. It’s a downright shame you don’t reject your own racism and bigoted mindset.
Looking back, I can see where I misspoke. No, THIS PLACE, the Thunderdomen isn’t meant to be a safe space. I think I was treating the Dome as an aspect of Pharyngula in general, which I consider to be a safe space. While I recognize that the Thunderdome is unmoderated, given how many regulars participate here and continue to fight against sexism, racism, patriarchy, homophobia, and the rest, the spirit of equality not only exists here, but is and should be fought for (by those willing to do so).
In my entire time posting here, I don’t believe I have actually had my feelings hurt. Certainly I’ve been irate. I’ve gotten so mad at MRAs and rape apologists. To the point that I’ve been crying in anger. But I don’t think I’ve actually had my feelings hurt. What makes it worse is that this has been done by someone I considered an ally. A comrade in arms of a sort.
I think I’m done for the night.
Bye all.
Tony:
Well, you could try to answer my direct and explicit question.
—
Caine:
Not particularly, no.
This is who I am, or have I never mentioned how I never have to try to do that, rather I routinely must make an effort not to upset people when I comment?
This place (O glorious Thunderdome!) is the last virgin vestige of the old Pharyngula that was.
(I hardly comment on the Lounge due to how sickly nicey-nicey it is)
Tony (in crosspost):
No worries.
Well, I’d dispute that, did I but care to; but I grant you that the Lounge really and truly is explicitly declared a “safe space”.
—
* PS if your feeling were hurt, consider that saying “that’s a X comment” does not entail that its author is X.
Goodnight, Tony. Don’t you stop doing what you do. It’s important. You are important. Illegitimi non carborundum.
John:
Fuck that and go fuck yourself while you’re at it. Tdome is basically TET and TET was considered a safe space, in spite of the fact that outright brawling and nastiness was allowed. You went out of your way to hurt Tony, then offered up a most weak notpology. Give yourself a virginal vestige asshole medal.
Caine:
I think that, if only you could perceive your disbelief about my claim from my perspective, you probably wouldn’t have written that without feeling like a hypocrite.
I tell you for the last time: I did not go out of my way one iota to hurt Tony. What I did is reveal Thunderdome for what it is.
(And no, that was in no way intended to be apologetic. At all.
I make it explicit: I hereby repudiate any claim that I intended that to be in any way apologetic)
abear
Like going to work, being at home, walking home after dark alone, walking home with a “friend” after dark, having a drink, not having a drink, being straight, being gay, being a child, being an adult, having a vagina, not having a vagina…
All those stupid thing women do all the time.
Hey, another idiot who thinks that rape is an accident that happens to good and caring people who don’t pay attention for a second.
And, btw, it’s still stupid to say that about a car accident. My husband didn’t cause the other driver to rear-end him. Sure, if he hadn’t been there she wouldn’t have rear-ended him. Maybe she would just have rear-ended somebody else.
And also I don’t remember the police asking him what he was doing there, if he had provoked her before and what the hell he was thinking driving a black family-van on that part of the Autobahn at that time of the day…
Sally Strange
I have been thinking about that.
It was only in the 1990’s that marital rape actually became a crime. And I was thinking what, hypothetically, because I think that after all these years I know Mr. enough to fully trust him, would happen if he raped me and I reported it? There’s no fucking chance that I would get justice. People would say I was making shit up because I wanted to keep the children from him (yeah, because I’m going to leave my daughters with a rapist). And the fact that I bruise so easily that walking past a corner without touching it makes me bruise would be used against me. The handcuffs I ordered would be used against me. My kinks would be used against me. My internet history would be used against me. All in all, short of ending up in the hospital with serious wounds I would be the accused and run the risk of losing the children. Yeah, as if I would report in such a situation.
MM
I’m so sorry. That victim blaming bullshit really know no end.
+++
QFMFT
Until we’re down to the most vulnerable, marginalized person there is. A child, a disabled person, a sex-worker, an illegal immigrant…
+++
Caine
Damn, I’m sorry.
Hugs
And the worst thing is that he will probably have forgotten it, and if he remembers then as “the time you yelled at him even though he was just being nice”
Sally
Hugs to you, too
HI Have a Balloon
I have seen you around before
The “last vestige of the old Pharyngula that was,” aside from PZ’s writing and the presence of a couple of regular commenters, ended shortly after the move to ScienceBlogs. At pharyngula.org betrween 2003-2006 we treated one another mainly with kindness, though we did tar and feather the occasional Christer or racist atheist. And PZ and Chris Mooney were pals.
What was your point again?
Chris:
All this consciousness raising has ruined the Great Pharyngula and people have to walk on eggshells, dammit! Now the wondrous pit of nastiness, Thunderdome, is cracking under the weight of social consciousness!
Shorter: the sky be falling.
http://blondesmakemoney.blogspot.com.au/2011/07/sky-is-falling.html
Chris Clarke:
Well, it’s not not that I’m hoary, but you’re even hoarier; rather, it’s once Pharyngula was a pretty rumbustious place, and it suited my predilections perfectly.
(And this is the only remnant of that time)
—
… and therefore the move to ScienceBlogs is hardly to be called “the old days”, because there was an even earlier time?
FUCKITY FUCK I am tired of this. Maybe a creationist came into the ‘Dome today, I thought. Maybe they invoked the Second Law of Thermodynamics and I can test out my brand-new splainin’ skillz, I thought. But no. More of this: “See, you’re just being too EMOTIONAL. If only you would disconnect yourself from your lived traumatic experience you would understand that just because you caused said trauma to occur, that doesn’t mean you’re to blame for it. Goddamn bitchez and their hormones, amirite? Also, WAHHHHH you said something mean to meeeeee!”
You know, back during the Stefanelli split, I went to the ‘pit to understand what all the fuss was about. I didn’t think they were so bad, and I told them so. I was wrong, and I’m sorry.
Ogvorbis, you’re probably sleeping now, and I don’t think we’ve directly interacted, but I’ve got your back. I’ve got all of your backs, Horde. It maybe doesn’t mean anything. I’m not anybody special. But there it is.
I baked cookies today. White chocolate macadamia nut. Would anyone like some cookies?
Caine:
Why is all your nonsense explainable by the fundamental attribution error?
No, the plain fact is that I like it like this place, it’s an environment where I can relax somewhat.
—
Do you seriously imagine I cannot adapt, I who thrived in Dan Fincke’s blog where so many here failed to make the grade?
<snicker>
(Your theory of mind is weak, when it comes to me)
Oh Chris, you are so wicked. Seriously so.
My point, such as it is, John:
Despite our slightly rough start a few months back, I’ve grown to like your presence here. And to appreciate the way you approach things.
In that spirit, I think you need to dial it back a scoche here WRT Tony. The analytical is getting in the way of the humane.
evilisgood:
If you want an excellent overview of what the ‘pit is all about, I highly recommend reading Stephanie Zvan’s recent post http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2013/02/02/what-is-more-important-than-peace-nsfw/ – it’s quite enlightening as to recent events.
[Addendum]
“Well, it’s not not that I’m hoary, but you’re even hoarier”… and PZ is hoariest.
Chris, thanks.
(Also, believe it or not, that’s precisely what I did at #755)
—
Caine, Tony — you should know that none of my above comments reflect any diminution of my respect and affection for you.
John:
Yes, yes, John, get all that insulting out of your system. This is one of those times you are being an asshole for assholery’s sake and you know it. You seem to need to do this on a fairly regular basis. I like you, John, I always have, however, I don’t much care for you when you decide your need to be an asshole overrides everything and everyone else.
I remember times you have been genuinely hurt and how difficult it was for you to say as much, but when you did, people immediately backed off and gave you support. It’s a bit difficult to remember that you’re a person capable of being hurt when you go on one of your asshole sprees, apparently not giving a damn about hurting people.
So, you decided to pick on Tony, one of the most compassionate and kind people here, a person it is very easy to hurt, and doing it just once wasn’t good enough, you had to twist the knife.
Now you’re going back to your earlier lament of how Pharyngula has changed. The same comfort you provided to Paul W. Most impressive, and not in a good way.
Caine @719:
You know what? That’s where I thought Paul was going with the idea of talking very carefully about “cause.” I wanted to let him know that although he was using the devastatingly victim-blamey ones that affect so few of us (hugs, hugs, hugs, Caine), most of us have heard them so damned often that even if our rapes or assaults are nothing like that, we still pull in that guilt. On top of that, society has worked so obviously hard to say that “some” women are to blame–alone at night, dressed just so (never really specific, that), not watching the drinks…or the shadows…or the car..or or or–while simultaneously finding other reasons to deny the rapes and assaults of the rest with special little reasons once they dig into the details.
At first, I thought he had an idea, a suggestion, a plan that was going to follow his initial foray so that he’d be able to discard it once the clamor arose. There’d be apologies and then his reveal of something that would turn victim-blaming on its head. I don’t know what. Maybe realigning the concept of object permanence underpinning an inability to shift gears from “But he’s my friend…isn’t he?” to an ability to growl, immediately and guilt free, “Get away, assclam.” (And anyone trained in this way would recognize their trespass and not try to argue about being nice or feeling entitled.)
But he didn’t have a plan for fostering that ability. Fuck it. I’ll see what I can do about it. I’d already learned here what Step 1 is. ALWAYS ridicule victim causation.
At this point, Step 2 is either rage cleaning or balloons. I choose to throw the steel wool and wire brush at John’s feet and have a balloon!
Louis,
Please do me the favor of articulating your specific objections to the wiki page about Phil. I don’t recall that you ever voiced any at the time. I ask because the only reason it’s down is that Phil has not been a subject of much interest to us — my plan has always been that if he becomes relevant again, I will undelete the page.
Wow, that’s pretty fucked up, Caine. What I don’t get is why they are so obsessed with FTB. They have threads for other things, but those don’t get nearly as much traffic. It’s getting kind of weird. That’s probably an understatement.
Why don’t they just let it lie? Lulz are one thing, but this goes far beyond lulz.
Also, John, your deliberate strikes at Tony were just a method of silencing, to get him and others to get the fuck out of your precious bastion of virginal vestige of what you remember to be Pharyngula, so that “your” space isn’t tainted. It doesn’t much matter whether you see it that way, either. What matters if the effect you have on Tony and other people about speaking up in “your” space.
Athyco:
Yes, always. Because it never matters where a person thinks they might be going with causation, it always ends up at the same old place.
And I want a balloon too. I want a whole bunch of balloons!
Caine:
Something is only knowledge when it is actually true, no matter how justified it is.
You lack knowledge.
evilisgood:
And let all the uppity feminazi cunts and manginas ruin the splendors of atheoskepticism? Never!
:eyeroll:
PS Caine:
See, that’s your problem.
(You know Orac’s dictum?)
StevoR,
Were you a racist when you said that? Was it a racist comment?
Seeing the abear hits on the search Chris did, I found curiosity getting the better of me.
I have one hit with a Freeze Page on the ‘pit, and it’s not even from Pharyngula. Is that sad, or what?
Caine:
Maybe it’s good that I don’t understand. It’s like what Vigil says to Shepard in Mass Effect. “In the end, what does it matter? Your survival depends on stopping them, not understanding them.”
No, the ‘pit are not the Reapers. I just enjoy alluding to Mass Effect at every opportunity.
Wait, atheoskepticism contains splendors? How would one obtain these splendors? Is there a card or something for discounts on splendors? Being newish to the community, must I run a gauntlet? Fill out an application? Aside from the cookies I baked, my day has been relatively splendor-free, and I would like to remedy this post-haste.
evilisgood:
You must be a white male or a self-professed chill girl, you must claim that equality has already been achieved, and for goodness sake, women already have many more benefits than men, you must staunchly defend your right to call people bitches and cunts, you must insist that banning or blocking people from your sites or feeds is tantamount to a terrible crime and an offense against freeze peach, you must agree that the dictionary definition of atheism is the only correct one and that skepticism should only concern itself with certain subjects.
Once you do all that, you’re in!
Okay, the “chill girl” thing. Whenever I’ve seen it used it’s in reference to a woman who expresses sexist ideas about women. Usually the woman who expresses these ideas is then accused of doing so specifically for male approval. Is this correct? Isn’t this also kind of a horrible stereotype? I’m asking because I think I used to be like that.
Addendum: I didn’t think at the time that I thought these things for male approval. I think it was more like I was just steeped in these ideas, in thousands of years of this weird culture we’ve all come up in.
One last time before I go to bed (if I can, as this is bothering me a bit).
John:
Whether you intended to do so or not, the end result of your words has hurt my feelings. I do not have any desire to see the Thunderdome change from its rough and tumble nature. However, as an extension of Pharyngula-even an unmoderated one-this _can_ aspire to be a safe space. Not in the kumbaya sense. Not in the “reasons I don’t like the Lounge sense”…rather, in the sense that rape apologetics, MRAs, homophobes, and other bigoted people will be vocally eviscerated. This happens here already. It happened today. This is no more a safe haven for those unsavory elements of society than any other thread. Yes, they are free to spout their crap, but they still face opposition. That opposition, among other things, is a constant reminder of the values here. Granted, we can be much more creative and harsh in our verbal slapdowns, but that doesn’t mean the quest for equality should stop at the entrance to the Thunderdome.
Tony, I respectfully disagree with that compound proposition. Here’s how I see it:
1. I entirely agree.
2. I entirely disagree.
There is no “should’ except under a set of moral codes, a set that excludes mine.
(And what’s this talk of “quests”, anyway? I’m on no such quest, yet here I am)
evilisgood:
Most women have had a chill girl phase. When you’re a chill girl, you accept internalized and external sexism, you consider it the norm, therefor you “side” with the guys. There was an excellent thread which addressed this, but it’s lost to NatGeo. Basically, we’re all still raised with the notion that men=human being, so we seek to be men, so to speak, by accepting their outlook as the right one.
A chill girl is one who would, frinst., indulge in slut shaming, considering it right to do. Not that long ago, in the douchebag thread, we had Renee Hendricks show up, she’s a classic chill girl and ‘pitter. She took up with another person who was decrying women in the military – she declared that there were jobs in the military women were not suited for at all, and she should know, because she had one of those jobs in the military. Ah, there it is, starts about here.
John:
What do you actually disagree with in the second proposition? Surely it’s true that verbal slapdowns can be more creative and harsher in the Thunderdome than in moderated comments on Pharyngula. And it would be a non sequitur to say that more creative and harsher verbal slapdowns mean that any particular quest (whether or not you’re on it, and as long as the quest isn’t one to reduce the frequency of relatively harsh and creative verbal slapdowns) “should” stop at the entrance to the Thunderdome.
casus, what part of “There is no “should’ except under a set of moral codes, a set that excludes mine.” is confusing to you?
(I do not subscribe to deontology)
If anything goes, that means it’s ok to yell at people for being mean too, right? “Anything goes” doesn’t mean “everybody is mean all the time”. So it’s perfectly as ok here to yell at John for being insensitive as it is for him to be insensitive in the first place. Wait, that means…
HUGS FOR EVERYONE HUGS ARE OK IN THUNDERDOME TOO *runs after Chas*
*pause, realizes no one’s hugged John yet, changes course…*
<eek!>
Carlie:
Pssst…take balloons and music videos!
John, I’m not confused by your quoted sentence. I’m confused by why you think it’s necessarily in disagreement with what Tony said.
I understood him to be saying, effectively, that there’s no “should” here, also. Given that some people are on a quest (whether or not you are), there’s nothing in the unmoderated nature of Thunderdome that means it should be abandoned. Tony’s not saying, as far as I can see, that as a result of the unmoderated nature of Thunderdome, the quest should not be abandoned.
Would you explain what I’m missing?
Perhaps PZ should start yet another open thread, Vulcanland, with a sign posted on the clubhouse door: no icky emotions allowed.
Caine, thank you, so much, for sharing your story. You’re right; it did help me. And you’re also right when you say it is a big deal. So again, thank you.
And yet, all your examples so far have been women.
And I’d rather point out that “what is best for the happiness and well-being of the family” tends to fall in the pattern of “wife gives her personal aspirations up to stay at home”; pretending you’re one of the “good ones” doesn’t help one bit.
Tony
I’m so sorry.
It’s that fucking paralyzing fear you get once you see it, once you know it. Even if it doesn’t happen to me, what about the girls? I know my sister is a victim of domestic violence (and she’s still married to that idiot). I don’t know if he sexually assaulted her, too.
When she was 15 or 16 she was grounded. She ran away and because she didn’t want to be seen on the street by family members, she took the way over the meadows.
A guy assaulted her, threw her on the ground and started to cut her face with a razorblade (thankfully not very deep). He was on her when he noticed that she wasn’t the woman he wanted to assault so he let her run away (she remembered him calling her by a name that was not hers).
Fucking wrong place at the fucking wrong time? You bet.
But she didn’t fucking cause this assault. A guy decided to assault his (ex-)girlfriend, I suppose. He armed himself, he waited in a place where he thought she would pass through, he wanted to cut her with a razorblade and I guess he wanted to rape her.
Of course, afterwards people asked my sister what she had been doing there. Had she stayed grounded, it wouldn’t have happened. Had she stayed on the street, it woudn’t have happened.
Fuck, it would have happened. It would have happened to the woman he was targeting and it is pretty likely that much worse would have happened.
But nobody would say that my sister prevented a rape or even worse a murder by being there.
But people like Paul and abear would say she caused her own assault by being there.
As an adendum: Shit how deep all that stuff is burried, how I haven’t thought about it in years, how I pushed those things apart, so everything was isolated rare incedences…
John
Here, have some Freeze Peach.
It’s on the house.
evilisgood
I would rather think of it as a feedback-loop. They express those ideas and they get approval. They get approval form society in general (which is, of course, male dominated), they get approval from guys, and they get approval from each other.
There’s an interesting discussion in Germany at the moment because one woman, a journalist who was supposed to be one of those “chill girls”, one of the “alpha girls”* spoke up against casual sexism and objectification by a politician. This was new and it gave thousands of women the courage to speak up, too. Because before it was only us fat or ugly or old hags who just hadn’t what it takes to be successful and were whining instead.
*Dunno how much that term is prevalent in English. In German “Alfamädchen” stands for the type of young women, between 25-35, well-educated, having a career, not seeing discrimination, just brushing off the sexist shit… until something really terrible happens or they suddenly notice that they still have to decide between kids and a career and that their window is closing.
Caine
Hey, there’s coffee on my screen now.
Butbutbut, when I googled Vulcanland, what I got was Vulkanland, a region of Austria noted for its fine food and wine. I’d go there, dunno about the discussions though. Probably all about Schinkenmanufactur…
/sorry!
CB:
<sigh>
Yes: Tony’s claim is true on the most literal level, and if I imagined I was on some sort of quest for equality, it might have some relevance.
So, I disagree that this claim is of relevance, since you insist on specificity.
Nor did I claim he has; point is this is only relevant if one partakes of such a quest.
(Apparently, he imagine
sd I do so, else why such a contention?)Sure.
What you miss is that the fact that though such a quest is not forbidden by the commenting rules, it is not required, either. And I partake of no such quests.
(Can you follow the implication?)
Parrowing, I’m glad it helped. ♥
Giliell:
It’s self protection. If we don’t do things like that, we’d all be a ball of neuroses, hiding in a closet.
Anybody else here go through a phase of obsession with black metal? Not enjoyment of black metal, but sort of obsessive curiosity?
What the fuck is up with black metal, in other words?
Also, Chas has made me desirous of majikal brownies, which as far as I can tell is the opposite of obsession with black metal. However, as I was the target of a sting* in November, I just can’t be fucking with the ganj.
*both hilariously fruitless and sad
Not really a phase but I did read up a bunch on it a while back after watching this.
Thank you for your patience, John, I get the sense I’m quite taxing.
So when you said this:
you didn’t really mean that you entirely disagree? You only disagree that it was relevant?
I think this is where we part ways. I didn’t understand Tony to be saying that you were necessarily on the putative quest, only that some people are and, insofar as those people are, the fact that Thunderdome is unmoderated is not a reason for those people to abandon the quest. That might not be relevant to you, but it’s relevant to those people who are on the quest, and it’s obvious that those are the people that Tony was talking about.
(It’s not all about you.)
StevoR even when you are trying to not be racist…
ah nevermind.
I think I’d like to have that poster and hang it next to my framed hand screened James Brown concert flier.
Rev. BDC:
He’s more racist than ever! It’s quite the tell and it’s rather amazing that StevoR claims to not understand that. He just cannot bring himself to treat, um, “melanin enhanced” people as people. Perhaps I’m unfair though, and the next time StevoRacist posts about someone, they will be “melanin deficient”.
RBDC: that’s the documentary that launched this whole obsession. The superimposition of these really transgressive ideologies on the legoland backdrop or like, IKEA world is disorienting, and not just a feature of the documentary as I found out, but more for realzies in the Bergen metal underworld.
I haz a massive brainhurting confuse.
Yeah that was an interesting watch. Varg Vikernes is an obviously intelligent but massively fucked up individual.
You know that The Lillehammer hate killer Bård Guldvik “Faust” Eithun* only served nine years and Is free and actively recording.
*easily as fucked up as Vikernes…or maybe that The crime for which he was sentenced was maybe even more fucked up.
Caine
That is the fucking truth. There are moments when I briefly glimmer how fragile my safety and the safety of those I love is and the rising horror of it is just about debilitating. It’s not the PTSD either. This is separate. It’s simply being able to understand on an intellectual and emotional level that there’s nothing you can truly do to keep safe. One moment you’re living your life, and the next you’re meat to a predator. ::shiver::
I understand the impulse to try to justify things and shield our minds from the fact that we can’t control everything. We try to seek out control in some way. Unfortunately, it’s a lie and one that causes horrific damage.
Those balloons upthread better not be filled with helium.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert_peak_theory#Helium
Dysomniak, as they are virtual balloons, I wouldn’t worry.
Vikernes is free now too.
Paroled in 2009
I don’t know whether Eithun or Vikernes is a “worse” person, though “Faust’s” hate crime is perhaps more disturbing than Varg’s killing of Euronymous which might be interpreted as a tragic accident resulting from a mutual altercation over creative differences or contractual issues (depending on which account you believe, but of course we’ll never really know). But for my money Vikernes’ particular blend of Ayn Randian social darwinism and Odinist white supremacism is far more disturbing than knee-jerk homophobia.
The whole thing gives me the googly eyes. The most freaktifying element (to me) is that these transgressive* ideologies are not limited to a small group of musicians**, but are kind of widespread and are just sort of bult into that kind of music. IDK.
*like, really transgressive, and largely incoherent and not resembling anything, even the most extreme form of Randian type shit, or scientology-like LaVeyan pseudosatanic libertarianism, that I am even remotely familiar with. They seems to only cohere in the desire to cause harm.
**or nominally musicians…and I’m not trying to marginalize black metal as a form of music, but for many, the music seems to be kind of beside the point
I hope everyone has a … day.
I’m having two days apparently.
Well, I had a hell of a night, so a day will be . . . good?
friend just pointed out to me, more shit news.
A shooter in DC pleaded guilty after he attacked the Family Research Council back in August, armed with a handgun and a stack of Chick-Fil-A sandwiches.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/06/justice/dc-family-research-council-shooting/index.html
Not helping, dude. Not. Helping.
Of course it’s the SPLC’s fault:
Never mind how many gay folks suffer and die because of unreasoning hatred and lies. Never mind how many shootings RIGHT wing rhetoric helps to inspire. Gotta blame the folks who point shit out, who are the reeeeeal oppressors of those honest souls who just can’t leave others to live their damn lives in peace.
fuck I totally overslept…
there were dreams…I was asleep in the dream but people kept trying to hug me…finally I woke up, batted away the damn balloons and said “no! I do not want to be hugged while I am sleeping and don’t know who’s hugging!’ but they all just laughed at me and said it was my fault for sleeping all loglike while wearing that soft huggable furshirt…I look down and I’m covered in soft silky fur that wasn’t my fault! Then suddenly everybody had spears and pikes and broadswords and they were angry at me for saying something–it didn’t seem to be about the fur–and I recognized Dock Ellis and Jack Lambert in the angry mob…there was excrutiatingly loud germanic metal cranking and you could hear howls and people screaming “THUNDERDOOME”…I couldn’t even find my fucking slippers and the only way out led directly into a pit of slimy slime; things looked bad until Chris Clarke and what I somehow knew to be 100 of his fattest friends showed up on motorized shopping carts full of peas and bisonburgers, I assumed to save my ass but no, they were pissed at me about something else and chased me into the Mojave creosote flats where there is noplace to hide…I was thirsty but suddenly remembered that cold beer I had in a pocket or whatever and was looking around for a rock or something to open it with (some decent IPA, no screwcap) but what I found was Charlie Wagner’s Mensa card and I realized I had gone back in time to the olden days…comments were few on the ground but most of them linked to the commenters’ own blogs and so I was able to hyperlink myself back to bed and to my relief the fur was gone and replaced by a ‘Quest for Fire’ t-shirt that (wait) I no longer own…then it occured to me that it was still 2005 and in 2005 my bed was in Pennsylvania and I had a 9am class across the river in Jersey…looked at the clock and it was already 10. Then I woke up for real and it really was 10.
weird one.
*one eyebrow up*
It would be a fascinating experiment.
(my prediction: implosion from disputes about policing)
No, it would be an inhuman and delusional one.
You might as well have a thread in which communication can only take place using pheromones for all the relevance and utility it would have to actual humans.
What you’d get is a bunch of people denying emotions while arguing squarely from within them—wait, I’ve just described the old-school skeptical movement, haven’t I?
You’re welcome.
I usually try and stay away from posting in rape threads specifically because I feel like I’d have nothing to add other than seething rage or detached philosophical musings. The later is unhelpful, and the former feels repetitive. I want to add my voice as a man who specifically looks to create more friendly, less hostile work environments for women and more hostile environments for rape culture. This shit is horrible and will only change when people act to change it.
SallyStrange:
I think I have a complimentary perspective to add. I grew up in a very liberal environment. My mother is more educated than my father, my highschool directly covered topics like objectification and feminism in a very progressive light. Even coming from that environment, it has been hard moving away from the kind of possessive attitude your then-boyfriend displayed in his reaction.
As boys growing up, we’re surrounded by language that suggests than men should possess women. Men are breadwinners, heads-of-households. Men take responsibility and ownership of the environment around them. Men have duties, responsibilities to provide and protect. These seem like very positive archetypes, things to actively aspire to, but of course the way they are put forward implies that women do not have these qualities.
Men are protectors, so women must be protected. Men are breadwinners, so women must be provided for. Men take ownership, so women are owned. Even as a man who consciously wants a world where women are equal, these views are hard to shake.
They lead to a feeling a failure if the woman I’m with is assaulted or harmed, a feeling that I failed even though the assault or harm is firmly the perpetrator’s fault. It leads to the need to shift blame, to blame her for *something* so that I’m off the hook. It’s stupid, and it comes from what appear to be positive ideals.
but fascinating.
@Evilisgood #783
I believe there is some sort of ceremony involving a blindfold and some paddling while someone takes pictures up your skirt to post on a Redditt thread. Unless you’re a white heterosexual middle class male, of course, in which case you just have to be willing to say something nasty about religion. Then you get all the Atheoskeptic splendors of calling anyone you like a cunt because freeze peach and dictionaries, that’s why.
Of your link Chas, I can only say this: of all the souls I have encountered in my travels, his was the
most…[voice breaks] human.
man, I just remembered something else: Judy Collins was singling ‘Kumbayah’…weird. I think it was during the hugging thing.
@Dobbshead #828
Chrsit, you’re right you know. We’re under pressure to conform to the stereotype “manliness” and are actively made to feel ashamed if we don’t I can totally see how that leads to some people lashing out when they fail to meet the standard, thus consolidating misogyny. Huh, I was aware of the societal pressure to be “manly” but I’d never thought of it that way before. Another new idea thanks to Pharyngula. Thank you :)
Saw this in my Twitter feed and thought I should share. It is from Jessica Valenti.
Day In The Life Of A Feminist Inbox
Have a Balloon
and Caine
So true. Two days ago I extricated myself from the association I had with that Sexist Attorney I’ve mentioned before. I off-hand mentioned once that I could do criminal defense, but not sex crimes. Told him that’s where I drew the line in case he ever ran across one he wanted t o refer to me. He started going on about how great I would be at it, though, as a young woman. So if a person very likely to be raped is defending a rapist, they’re more likely to be acquitted. It’s sick, but it makes sense. Yuck.
Tony
I’m so so sorry to hear that about your mother. She is so lucky to have such a compassionate son. *hugs*
Chas that is the funniest thing I’ve heard this year.
Portia,
Yuck, indeed.
—-
My admiration and sympathy go to everyone who wrote about their abuse, and to those who are maybe still unsure about what they have gone through, or for some reason don’t want to share their stories with us.
—-
Have a Balloon, I remember you. Hello!
Whatever happened to Davescot?
Is he still lurking around the ID universe?
vaiyt:
If both parents agree that the mother staying home is what is best for the family, then what is your point?
Is it never the case that the mother staying home is what’s best for the happiness and well-being of the family? Or maybe it’s only the case when the father stays home? Or maybe it’s never a good thing if either parent decides to stay home? What do you feel?
If I believe doing what is best for the happiness and well-being of the family is something for every parent to strive for, then I do think I’m one of the “good ones”. I’m curious to find out what you feel fits the description of a “good one”?
I don’t know if it’s appropriate to share this incredibly sad story here.
Either way: TRIGGER WARNING for rape, suicide and victim-blaming.
Joey, continuing to argue dishonestly:
Why do you keep avoiding the main point everyone else is talking about, joey? Why are you so afraid of actually talking about the elephant in the room? Does it scare you that much?
Since no one has said that, you are dishonest for trying to make the the center of your argument. Amongst other things.
Maybe I can help make it clear, Joey, because it’s painful watching you be so close and still just missing it.
My wife and I want to have children, and we’re going to eventually. When we do there will be some consequences. I’m going to divide these consequences into two categories: 1) direct results from the condition of pregnancy and 2) Social issues stemming from pregnancy.
1) She’s a clinical laboratory scientist, and a lot of things you need to work with in a clinical setting are dangerous to a fetus’ development. PCR chemicals, for example, can cause pretty bad birth defects. As a consequence, she won’t be able to do that kind of work. She’ll also get bigger, which will limit her mobility and working ability. At the end of the pregnancy, she suffer a traumatic medical operation in which her pelvis will literally come undone or she’ll be cut open. That will take time to recover from. On top of that, she’ll be the only one of us who can feed the newborn at first. This will all necessitate some time off work. These are all examples of necessary consequences of human biology, and not examples of the patriarchy (as far as I understand it).
2) I will most likely have a job that does not provide paternity leave. Even if I did, most employers frown on taking paternity leave. Her career will already be set back by her mandatory leave of absence (see the aforementioned pelvic/abdominal trauma). In that context, it would be a rational decision for her to be the person who stays at home at takes care of the kids until they can be put into day-care. This decision will be sexist not because it isn’t rational or even the optimal choice for the financial health of our family, but because the social context in which it is made is sexist. Her career is by necessity damaged and the optimal course is for us to neglect it.
Now we can add more overt social pressures. 1) women are paid less than men on average and this still holds up even if you account for time off for pregnancy, 2) social archetypes for men emphasize breadwinning &c 3) social archetypes for women emphasize caregiving, 4) failing to meet social expectations is a source of stress. Now the pressure for women to stay home is even clearer. It is not possible to make this decision without being influenced our patriarchal society, because it is that very society which set the terms for how we judge ourselves and for how we feed ourselves.
I’m not going to blame anybody for giving in to the pressures I outlined above, hell my wife and I (feminist as we are) might give in to some degree. It is easier, and often financially beneficial, to give in and make one partner (usually the woman) the primary caregiver for the children. However, the society that makes doing that the path of least resistance is fucked up and should be changed.
…
She was cross-examined with “utter fantasy” and “complete pack of lies” accusations, and she SAID IN COURT:
“This is why cases don’t come to court. This happened.”
It’s horrible, and absolutely classic. This is why. This is why. This is why victim-blaming is a cancer upon society.
Background: she was brought into the case because someone else reported, and even though she had chosen not to report (and tried, but failed, to remain anonymous, IIRC) she testified anyway.
Caine:
Gah! Blockquote fail! Let me try again.
Caine said:
She took up with another person who was decrying women in the military – she declared that there were jobs in the military women were not suited for at all, and she should know, because she had one of those jobs in the military.
And I reply:
Poor woman. Phyllis Schlafly Syndrome (PSS) destroys lives.
Giliell said:
I would rather think of it as a feedback-loop. They express those ideas and they get approval. They get approval form society in general (which is, of course, male dominated), they get approval from guys, and they get approval from each other.
And I reply:
Thanks very much for this. It’s a good explanation, and it makes a lot of sense. I’ve never heard the term, but Alfamädchen is now going in my vocabulary. Is it pronounced “may-chen” or “may-ken?”
CB:
1. For certain values of taxing, I suppose so.
2. Yes, entirely.
3. More to the point, it’s not a reason why this is purportedly supposed to be a “safe space”, the which is the contention in dispute. Again, and from the horse’s mouth: “Like it says: open brawling permitted and encouraged. Say what you want, be as vicious and personal as you want, make people bleed metaphorically”.
3a. Granted, we can be much more creative and harsh in our verbal slapdowns, but that doesn’t mean the quest for pointless argumentation should stop at the entrance to the Thunderdome. :)
4. It’s not all about Tony, either.
evilisgood, preview is your friend.
John,
1. I was going for “wearingly burdensome”.
2. OK. I think.
3. I think that Tony had conceded he’d conflated Thunderdome with the rest of Pharyngula, and I understood him to be arguing a slightly different point – that those on the quest could fight to make Thunderdome safe from certain types of danger, notwithstanding the admitted Thunderdome’s admitted lawlessness.
3a. I completely agree.
4. Fair enough.
Thanks for humouring me, John, I’ll leave you alone now. :)
It seems that preview is also my friend. I admitted a bit too much in my previous.
Preview is a friend to all.
Preview is my friend too, but sometimes they get really drunk.
my
. T’ain’t
o’
Preview is no friend of URLs, that’s for sure.
Well, I’ve met that Url character and he’s an asshole.
And what if pregnancy and birth itself makes all this taking care of the family stuff impossible for a woman anyway. When I had my children we’d planned on me staying home with #1 for six months before returning to work and then a year to 18 months when #2 arrived. #1 turned out to be a sickly baby and I stayed off work for a year to care for her. Then #2. And this pregnancy enhanced all the issues that arose for me with pregnancy. So I had to spend several weeks in hospital before she was born. Then with all the joints in my body between the shoulders and the knees completely and utterly wrecked I wanted to care for a newborn and a toddler. Couldn’t bath the baby, couldn’t lift the toddler. By which time my husband had exhausted his 2 weeks paternity leave after the birth of the baby – and we were in a non-hospital residential support unit for those 2 weeks anyway, and he’d exhausted both his other leave entitlements and the good will of his workplace while trying to manage the toddler with a bit of help from my family and hospital visits for a couple of months before that birth.
We arranged a mother/babycare volunteer to come and bath the baby, and I managed the best I could with the 2 of them during the day until mrmagnificent could come home and cook a meal and let me lie down for a while – and this was after he’d done the get up, change baby do breakfast for all of us and go to work early routine. Day in, day out. So I went back to work after a mere 6 months because sitting at a desk was more doable than baby and toddler care. But there was no way then for my husband to take leave for childcare and keep his job. I didn’t earn as much as him, but it could have kept us going for a year or so.
If we had more sensible, or at least flexible, leave arrangements we might have done things very differently.
Chas:
That was one helluva brownie.
.
.
.
*jealous.
John Morales writes:
Ha! :)
Chas, have you tried using one of these?
The irony of the complaints of privacy invasion of the Bush family is making me enjoy this beer much more than I normally would.
I don’t smoke but a couple buddies of mine swear by theirs.
Just got one. Love it.
I tried an e-cig a while ago for vaping glycerol based cannabis tincture. It worked alright but I prefer my portable oil pipe.
Dobbshead:
All these issues are covered in depth in Manhood in America: a cultural history by Michael Kimmel. While I have a *much* better understanding of the issues involved in perceptions of manliness and masculinity, it still comes down to homosociality and men evaluating themselves via other men – this is why it’s so damn important that men speak up. The more men that speak up, on and offline, the more other men will listen.
AK: nope.
John,
You say you don’t like deontology. I tell you again that other ethical systems besides deontology also have shoulds.
Also, Chas, your dream post was one of the best and funniest ones I have read in a long time. A breathtaking summation dipped in silliness.
Heh. A couple of wandering JW’s have finally extricated themselves from my company. Shame, I was in the mood for chatting.
(“We’ve taken enough of your time” was their polite excuse)
John Morales
What were you wearing?
Do JW’s ever stop wandering?
And if they had already found Jesus, why would they keep milling about everywhere? Do they want another one?
chigau, ?
Underpants, jeans, a daggy T-shirt and my spectacles; also stubble, since I don’t work on Saturdays.
For my $ the brownie is hard to beat. You don’t really ever know what’s going to happen until its really too late to reign it back in.
Plus walnuts and chocolate and crispy edges.
John Morales
My favorite talking-to-the-doorstep-preachers story involves a male friend (who is short, rotund and covered in bright red hair) answering the door whilst naked.
I’ve always wanted to try it but the response would probably be an offer of food.
Chigau, a lot of people have done that – did it myself when I was around 15 or so. They stopped showing up after that.
My mom inadvertently pulled one of the greatest pranks on the preacher-recruiter types.
First off, she is the type who would take any literature from JW’s or any other group. Not tthat she would read them, she just did not want to be rude. And she would talk.
It was summertime and one church was recruiting kids for their vacation bible school. And for a couple of weeks, one of the recruiters kept coming to our house, my mom would talk and there was potentially eight kids to drag in. (I come from a large family.) Finally the first day of bible school has come and the church sent their van to pick their newest recruits. When they were at the door waiting for us to file out, my mom sked us if anyone wanted to go. None of us did. She apologized to them.
The look of shocked disappointment on their faces was priceless!
John Morales #870
My favorite talking-to-the-doorstep-preachers story involves a male friend (who is short, rotund and covered in bright red hair) answering the door whilst naked.
I’ve always wanted to try it but the response would probably be an offer of food.
—
jeez
I went walkabout half-an-hour ago without hitting submit
ok
so I did submit
I am puzzled
Just downloaded Guyland by Michael Kimmel.
I have had a revelation that will probably be news to exactly no one here.
So, the pitters go on about “free speech” and how banning them is a violation of this. Other (frequently conservative-types) do this as well. Never mind that the First Amendment (many seem to assume that everyone is in the US…) applies to government action. They don’t seem to get “you have the right to speak as you please” does not equal “you have the right to a platform.”
Then, it hit me.
When the Founders in the eighteenth century talked about freedom of speech and freedom of the press, they were talking about being free of hooligans breaking into private meetings and beating them up for calling George III a poopyhead. Or being arrested for such language. Or gangs being hired to break into their workshops and smashing their printing presses. That is what those phrases meant then.
These selfsame Framers wouldn’t dream of (for example) passing out free printing presses and paper stock. That’s not what “freedom” meant to them.
Also, y’know, the libertarian “any rules = oppression” argument is utter crap.
And, FWIW, I’ll point out that “no rules” all-so-frequently = “the one who is strongest/loudest/has the biggest posse wins.”
Gilliel, Beatrice, hello again!
Gilliel – those thoughts that you get, speculating about what would happen if your husband/partner assaulted you? I’ve had those. The environment I work/socialise in is extremely male-dominated – in fact, my last good female friend went off to work in London last year, so all my friends now are men. I’m very close to some of them. I think back to the number of times that I went alone to a male friend’s room, or they came to mine, and we hung out playing video games, or chatting. I think of the times I’ve spent alone with a boyfriend. I think how lucky I am that whenever I said ‘stop’, they stopped. They weren’t rapists, but they could have been.
I have been in numerous situations, alone with a man, when the only thing stopping them from raping me was them choosing not to do it. It would have been the perfect crime. People would have seen us together. If I wasn’t going out with the guy in question, there would probably be rumours that I was. No witnesses, nothing. It wouldn’t even be likely to go to court, if I did report it. I still end up in those situations, because the alternative is not spending time with my friends, ever. And occasionally I’ll be hanging out with a friend in my room, and there won’t be anyone else in the house, and I think “you could assault me right now, and completely get away with it”. And even though I trust these people completely, it still scares me.
Casus fortuitous – yeah, I saw that news article. It was appalling. But I can’t say that it wasn’t the right decision for her – only she could know what was best. I just wish I lived in a world where rape victims didn’t so regularly decide that this was their best choice. Whenever I hear of a rape victim committing suicide, it reminds me of why we often use the phrase ‘rape survivor’ – it’s because a lot of people don’t survive their rapes. This woman survived her rape, for a time. But eventually it killed her.
Sad face.
None of the Libertarians I have met would last until morning coffee.
Evilisgood, re: gauntlet.
Step 1: Go to Lounge/Thunderdome (I only tried this in the Lounge)
Step 2: Talk a lot about peas.
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit!
It worked for me :D
Just ate a one of the neighborhood Italian joint. They have one of my favorite beers in the world. Mrs BDC suggested eating there because she knows I love it.
I love her.
Rev. BDC:
Aaaaw. That’s so sweet. How was the food?
Bucatini with guanciale was excellent. The gnocchi was good, sauce not so much.
I once thought that gnocchi was a strange and exotic Eyetalian thing.
Then we made some.
D:
Oy Vey! Thunderdome has turned into a runaway thread like the Lounge. I am conflicted now, it is number one on FTB, but its getting harder to keep up.
{starts reading backwards}
Bucatini all amatriciana leftovers are calling me
Chas, I was just riffing on your dream. (And plugging my new purchase.)
I hope you didn’t think I was insulting you. If you did, I apologise.
[Mondo tokage paranoia.]
Are there any other MMA fans hanging around the ‘dome?* I’m pretty fucking excited about the upcoming Rousey V Carmouche fight. It’s the main event at UFC 157 and the first ever women’s bout in the octagon.
*Yeah, more lounge talk maybe. I’ve just always felt more comfortable back here in the alley, with the bad kids and the smokers.
Hi there
evilisgood
Oh, that is hard to explain in English.
The Ä is like in “may”but without “i” sound. The ch like “China” without the plossive “t” sound.
Have a Balloon
And it’s actually how it should be.
I fully, totally, 150% trust my husband. One of the scarier things that happened to me during the misogyny wars was that I became suddenly carefull around him, aware of my actual state.
It git better when I recalled to whom I am actually married, what my experiences with him are and that I am pretty justified in trusting him.
And it’s the stupid christian and libertarian view of people: beasts only reigned by the terror of being punished, not humans with empathy and rationality who can actually tell right from wrong.
But power corrupts. Men who are aware of the power they have over women and who are socialized to see us as the Other are not “limited” by such things.
? Not at all. Just never been in the same room with one is all.
I’m pretty old school.
myeck waters:
I’m not avoiding anything. If you’re referring to the real societal pressures on women to stay home, did you not see my blatant admission to rowanvt here?
I’m not sure you’ve been following the discussion from the start, but it essentially started with me claiming that there are actually women out there (such as my wife) who willingly and freely choose to stay home. My assertion was met with such incredulity by numerous posters. Taking the position that these particular women “don’t actually have a real choice” or “don’t have much of a choice” debases/cheapens these women’s real sacrifices for the betterment of the family. It basically insults them, and I am offended for these women. Not to mention it’s also wrong to shame women (or men) to think it’s “foolish” and “stupid” to stay home while the other is the lone income earner.
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dobbshead:
I appreciate you volunteering your personal situation into the discussion.
If you and your wife plan to put your kids in daycare, I don’t see what point you’re trying to make. It appears that your wife has already made the choice not to stay home any longer than what is necessary (from the “necessary consequences of human biology”, as you described). Yes, I realize there do exist patriarchal pressures, and the lack of paternity leave does suck and such a benefit would be very beneficial to the family, but the decision (as of right now) has already been made for your wife to go back to work.
Let me ask you this. Does your wife experience any feminist societal pressures that urge her to work after having children? These societal pressures can exist as well, correct? Two sides of the same coin.
joey:
From what background information do they agree? From what I’ve gathered from yours, it is based on the family farm. Father goes out and works all day. Mother stays in and works all day. His work brings in the big-ticket items that can be bartered or sold for other big ticket items. Her work, if it doesn’t all go to the family, can be bartered or sold for other small ticket items (e.g. egg money).
But when the father dies or becomes disabled? Well, there’s your Lifetime movie of strong woman doing a man’s work while agonizing over her children’s abbreviated childhood, huh? *strings swell as mother is silhouetted in the sunset and…fade to black*
By your choices, your wife is currently disadvantaged in the workplace, joey. You have the higher degree; you have no employment gap; you have added years of on-the-job experience to your resume. She’s falling behind month after month on Social Security so that she’ll get less when she’s eligible. She’s dependent upon you for health insurance. By how much can your salary be cut to maintain your family if you could not work, and she must? Would her current degree, with the detraction of employment gap, less experience, and society’s expectation of the work reliability/capability of a mother of four make it happen?
If you die or leave or become disabled, the situation, which will be hard in the first place, is one that your choices as a couple will make recognizably harder. Your children, rather than being able to turn their work/education entirely to their own independence and growing families, will have to help their mother.
If you’re able to have a close, loving relationship with your children even though you’re out of the home for the workday, then your wife can, too. Why would you risk damaging the family?
No, dammit, that’s only a portion of the argument.
The part you keep ignoring is the fact that the very values you and your wife (and all of us) are using in making our decisions are formed largely by constant indoctrination by the culture we live in, starting literally the day we were born. Starting with pink or blue booties and continuing through the toys were are given, the ads that are directed at boys vs. the ads directed at girls, subtle and not-subtle pressures from school, from other kids, from relatives, from the pulpit, etc.
This stuff lives BENEATH our rational mind. When a couple makes their oh-so-rational decision on which of them will be the one to stay home, part of that decision is based on the unconscious biases that have been programmed in. We all have them, and they tend to be heavily slanted toward what the society we were raised in viewed as “normal”.
Our “free will” decisions lie on a base of social conditioning.
NEW THREAD.