1. says

    Favorite holiday movies:
    A Nightmare before Christmas, maybe? Is that one a Christmas/winter holiday movie or is it a Halloween movie? Mostly I hate Christmas movies with a fiery passion. I can’t watch Lethal Weapon anymore since ol’ Mel decided to air some of his very dirty laundry in public, and I can’t see his face these days without the raving wingnut overlay. I think I’ll like Hogfather, but I still haven’t come by a copy; or rather I did, but then ex-Roommate made off with it before I had a chance to watch it, so now I need another one.

    Hugs and happy wishes to all for any holidays you may celebrate. I’m killing time ’til L and Roomate get up, and waiting for Mom and Brother later this afternoon (everyone else canceled/had other plans, so small and quiet this year).

  2. opposablethumbs says

    Just caught a few seconds of the TV news through the open door of the other room – seems our resident top-ranking cat-lick in the UK has chosen today to complain some more about government moves to legalise gay marriage.

    Yay, nothing says “christian” like trying to stop people – who have absolutely nothing to do with you – who love one another and want to get married from getting married …

  3. Beatrice says


    Top-ranking catlicks over here are using Christmas to rail against health education in schools. Would you like your child to learn in school that homosexuality is completely normal? *shock horror*

  4. opposablethumbs says

    Yay for partners/spouses (I wish the plural could be spice) like FossilFishy and Improbable Joe. That’s a really nice thing to do.

    Kind of like (to take an extreme example) a friend of mine who recently got home from hospital (major surgery) to find her spouse and a sibling had made a whole completely new bedroom (that she’d wanted for ages) so she would have a pleasant place to rest while recuperating.
    When it’s so blindingly obvious that non-[whatever religion] decent people are a million times better human beings than the pontificators in stupid hats and all their most rabid followers, it beggars belief that anyone would seriously argue religion has some kind of a correlation with, let alone a lock on, goodness and morality (well, except a negative correlation of course).

  5. opposablethumbs says

    Hey Beatrice. Yes, because that would be sooooo shocking!!!!!!!!!!11elebenty!!!!!!!!!!!

    One of the Heads of Department (now moved on to even bigger and better things, sadly for us) at my kids’ school is gay; his partner used to come to some of the big school events sometimes that teachers would bring their partners and kids to. I always thought the positive role model this gave all the kids (and their parents) was kid of like this great bonus he generously offered us just by being there. Because all too often kids in school get no positive gay role models at all.

  6. Beatrice says

    I hope there will be more of a crowd on New Year’s Eve. You’re supposed to be my entertainment and company for the evening.

    My family isn’t exactly capable of peacefully socializing for an evening and I’m not going out.

  7. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Well I have to work New Years Eve. The resort apparently has a big bash and people drink a lot (or alot). Doubt I will be on much that day.

  8. says

    Hey peoples!

    Well… my grand decorating scheme fell through, because all of the picture-mounting hardware is in the car, with my wife, at her job. Gick. So instead I unloaded the rest of the trailer, set up the furniture in the guest bedroom, moved some boxes out of the garage and to the rooms where they’ll be unpacked, and I’m busy washing and scrubbing and such in the kitchen so that I can prepare and serve my wife a Christmas dinner at our sort-of table(I bought a tablecloth) on our new plates. Tamales that someone at my wife’s job made for us with green chile sauce that I’m about to make, refried beans and rice, and bacon.

  9. carlie says

    Tony – wait, so you did get a job? I thought you were between them at the moment – I must have missed it, congrats !

  10. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Sauce sounds good. I like to make ad hoc white sauce. : )

    Today has been better, thank you. I like your substitiuton of phrase.

    Oh, and I hope that you’ll keep us posted on the progression of The Plan. :D

    Good luck getting things arranged, that’s really sweet. I adore tamales. Hope they’re yummy.

    Sorry to have left you hanging! If you’re still up, hope your day was ok.


    The day has been alright for me, in spite of Santa bringing me a semi-migraine (semigraine?). Went to brother’s house and my dad and his gf had already left, so that was a relief. I do feel a bit guilty for not seeing my dad on Christmas, but…oh well.

    The birthday niece was ecstatic about her presents, enthusiastic and sweet. Her older half-brother and sister showed up early afternoon and we got to visit with them a bit. Those two are 17 and 18. The 18 year old brother has until very recently had a strong aversion to any affection (typical of many teenage boys, it’s not macho!) but he gave unsolicited hugs goodbye and even told my mom he loves her. Very heartwarming.

    How’s everyone’s day been, for those around?

  11. rq says

    I hate Christmas with my parents. I love my parents, but I hate Christmas with them.
    “It’s Jesus’ birthday!”

    I’m pretty sure I’ll be asked soon why I’m not telling the kids about such wonderful things as the birth of Jesus. And frankly, I didn’t have the guts to tell my dad to stop it with the Jesus’ birthday stuff every time the kids asked about presents or wanting to sing Jingle Bells instead of a religious carol (mostly because they know Jingle Bells and can both half-way sing it).

    Sorry, that was a bit ‘rupt. :(

  12. Nutmeg says

    Merry Squidmas, Hordelings! I hope you’re all surviving your family gatherings/lack thereof!

  13. carlie says

    Oh no, joe, cooking accident?

    If anyone needs to blow off steam, Yo, is this racist? is doing Merry Dissmas posts. It’s basically people writing in with long lists of everyone and everything that can just fuck right off. Cathartic reading.

  14. says


    No, unloading/unpacking accidents. Plural. And the cats are fighting, AND the dog is being a pain in the ass. I’m getting too old for this shit. The cooking is going OK though… my green chile sauce smells awesome! Just letting it simmer away for another 45 minutes or so, and then I’m going to steam the tamales and make some rice.

  15. chigau (違う) says

    I think I linked it while you were in the midst of your own move.
    I expect it’s a bit funnier if you aren’t living it.

  16. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Ham and Chateau Potatoes in the oven, and Brussels sprouts ready to steam. Getting there.

  17. FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker) says

    You know, the cleaning of all things is a sort of gift to Mrs. Fishy, but is shouldn’t be.

    I’ve been living alone for a week now so any and all maintenance is fully my responsibility. The notion that it’s a gift is in part predicated on an expectation that I wouldn’t do any cleaning while she’s away. And yes, I’m a slob with a horribly high tolerance for the stepping over of things that are not in their place and an even higher willful blindness to the grottyness of uncleaned sinks and the like. And yes, I did all the cleaning in one day rather than sensibly keeping up as I went along. So that expectation isn’t unwarranted. And the fact that I am that way in part because there is no societal pressure on me to be otherwise is no excuse.

    An understanding of my privilege is one of the great gifts that Pharygula has given me,. The realisation that no one will ever judge me on the state of the house, no matter how long I’ve been left to my own devices has had a tangible benefit to me. I no longer loath housework the way I once did because fuck society and its subversion of my desire to be a good person, to be a fair person.

    This understanding has also benefited Mrs. Fishy, not just in the fact that I now put more effort into doing my fair share, but also in that I no longer expect a cookie for doing that work. Yeah, I’m ashamed to admit that is was that guy.

    Anyway, she will see the love inherent in my effort. She’ll thank me. And I in turn will thank her for the work that she puts in every day, and we’ll both feel awkward and slightly embarrassed. And almost unnoticed in that interaction a few more grams of the stupid gender baggage will drop away. And thusly, drip by drip by tiny drip things get better.

  18. says


    What’s funny is that you and I got mentioned as “good mates” for doing stuff around the house, and we come at it from opposite directions. I carry no gender baggage about housework, because my parents split the housework and raised three boys in the ways of household chores like scrubbing toilets and folding laundry. One of my very earliest memories is of being 8-9 years old on Sundays and helping my dad walk sacks of laundry around the corner to the laundromat, and grabbing hot coffee and a huge loaf of fresh-baked Italian bread on the way back.

    If anything, I still have an odd sort of macho bias against women and what is considered “women’s work” on account of my time in the Marines. I got so good at cleaning things that my last few months in the Corps they put me in charge of the weekly barracks inspection. And a woman’s place? The hell out of my kitchen, that’s where!(that’s just me being a smartass) It annoys my wife because she’d sometimes like to help, but she simply can’t meet my exacting cleaning standards, or match my skills in the kitchen… :) It has been an adjustment for her, because her help is often unnecessary and even unwanted, but on the other hand her contribution to the cleaning is scooping the occasional litter-box and really not much else. I do wish she’d relax about the cooking, but she’s so afraid of screwing it up… whatever that means. I am a good cook but not a particularly picky eater. If it isn’t raw, burned, or so over-seasoned as to be inedible, I’m fine.

  19. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Who else wants to move in with the FossilFishys?

    *raises hand*

  20. says

    Happy Monkey, everyone!

    Joe, I know how you feel about the kitchen. MrsG and I have managed to work it out pretty well by dividing the meals. One of us will take point, the other will play sous chef. I do always get knife duty, ’cause she’s kinda scary with a knife (and slow, too). It seems to work well for us. Plus the smoker (named Alice) is all mine. For Xmas, she got me supplies to build a cold smoker. I need to think of a name for that bit of kit.

  21. cicely says

    Happy Axial-Tilt-Related Holiday, everyone!

    *pouncehug* for Ing.

    Pizza and presents and Hogfather with Son and D(still)IL.

    And then my mother calls to poke her nose around, looking (in vain) for the sordid details of Son’s divorce. Not her business. Can’t imagine why she thought I’d tell her.

    I should be here most of New Years Day; no pizza, no family, no Hogfather.

    I may drink some wine.

    *hug* for Joe. Unpacking-related pains? Ah; I see that it is so. You have my sympathies.

    Who else wants to move in with the FossilFishys?

    One day, come the Commune, we all will!

  22. FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker) says

    That’s interesting Joe. It’s a reversal of the forces that produce learned helplessness in men. Also, I wouldn’t have lasted 5 minutes in the Marines. ;)

    Uhm, I do believe that Fishy Estates, including The Ghost Train Villa (TM), will be at the very least a satellite of the Phayrngula Commune. All are welcome, but because GTV is going to be a tiny house indeed it’s highly recommended that new arrivals bring their own accommodation. And ammunition for the trebuchet. And it would be advisable for those with tents to bring something to feed the moat crocs. But the more the merrier I say!

    Now personally I want to go live in Joe and the Boss Nurse’s place. I can take orders real well, especially when they say that I’m forbidden to clean or cook.

  23. Socio-gen, something something... says

    Wow, what a day. I just got home a short time ago, when originally I thought I’d spend maybe two or three hours with the cousins — have dinner around 1, chat a bit, head home. As usual, we all got talking and laughing and time flew by. I am just so lucky to have them in my life because they are the people with whom I can always be my real self, without even thinking about it — and they make it more than obvious that they like that person.
    — —
    As far as I know, I’ll be here all New Year’s Eve and Day. Not sure how entertaining I’ll be, but I can try…

    Improbable Joe:
    Mmmm…your dinner sounds yummy! So sorry you’re in pain though!

    Portia and rq:
    The Plan has been put into motion! I did the Great Round of Calls this morning — calling every family member to wish them a happy holiday, because if I don’t, I’ll be accused of forgetting I have a family. When it was the bro and SIL’s turn, she asked (as she always does) what I was doing for New Year’s. I told her that it depended on whether FWB had all his stuff moved in, then very quickly, said, “Don’t tell Mom I told you that!” She agreed, but we both know she’s going to tell, probably at the family party on Saturday when she can get maximum mileage out of my “bad sheep” status.

    I expect to hear from my mother after church on Sunday. If she follows the usual dance, she’ll express disapproval and mention she’s talked with the pastor about it, then go silent for about a week. Then, probably around the 7th or 8th she’ll call and tell me she can’t stay with me and condone my sin. I’ll agree and tell her the Marriott is nearby and on the bus route, so she can easily tour the area on her own. Another couple days of silence, but some passive-aggressive postings on Facebook, and she should call to tell me something’s come up and she won’t be able to come out for my birthday after all.


    Who else wants to move in with the FossilFishys?

    *raises hand* Alternatively, what with my whole fear of flying thing, Joe and BossNurse.

    FossilFishy and Joe:
    You are both good people. It would be, for both of you, so much easier to just go with the status quo and not really think about doing any different, but you don’t. More than that, whenever you speak about your wives, the respect and admiration you have for them (and other women) as human beings and as equals just shines through. And I really admire that.

  24. chigau (違う) says

    Improbable Joe and BossNurse

    tough call
    perhaps we could exploit something like L-space
    all nice places connected…

  25. says

    FossilFishy, I’ll put you to work… I’m not sure which is worse, making you listen to me play guitar, or forcing you to deal with the landscaping. :)

    MikeG: you named your smoker. You win.

    cicely and Socio-gen: Pain is temporary, unpacking lasts at least until the end of the lease.

    Socio-gen: I don’t know how good I am, but I know I try to be better because my wife deserves better. I know it sounds cliche, but it is true. For instance, I’m really good at reading my wife… I try to use that to sneak up on her with surprise cool things that she will appreciate, rather than to manipulate her to get shit I want. It could go either way, I’m certainly capable of being a terrible shithead.

  26. Socio-gen, something something... says

    The point is, you try.

    And, certainly, I don’t want to imply you two are the only ones here at FtB whom I admire for this. Just that your words in this thread really hit a sweet spot in my heart. I’m constantly being blown away by the amount of support, encouragement, and education that I find in nearly every thread here at Pharyngula that makes me feel safe and supported.

    Even if y’all don’t always do it perfectly every single time, you are trying — and succeeding more often than not. And it really makes a huge difference, when I have to leave my house and face a world that isn’t like that, to know all of you are out there.

    Having had a bit too much wine through the day, I might be a bit maudlin and possibly incoherent tonight. But the thoughts are sincere, if not well expressed.

  27. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Holiday Dinner was a success, with the Redhead too stuffed after the main course and a piece of stollen to eat any plum pudding.

    I’m beginning to suspect I’m having some ergonomic problems with the counter level in the kitchen. The level is slightly lower than I am used to in the lab, and whenever I do a lot of work there like today, I get a pain in the mid-back region. Time for a naproxin.

  28. says


    Glad I contribute in some small way. Often I don’t feel worth much around here… a feeling that I realize is pretty fucking common, come to think about it. My guess is that we’re all sort of optimists at heart, and expect a whole lot out of the world, and out of ourselves too. We’re always disappointed at the world, and at ourselves… but we need to probably cut ourselves some fucking slack, right? We’re not perfect, but we’re better than what we face elsewhere.

  29. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Ok! So the Pharyngula Commune will be located on the 40 acres of land behind the FossilFishyFarm!
    When is the move in date?

  30. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Don’t we need a summer vacation place? Split time at the Fishy’s and the Improbables

    I would like to second Socio-gen’s comment about appreciating Joe and FossilFishy. Two awesome people who value their spouses as equals and treat them-and women in general-with respect and humanity.

  31. chigau (違う) says

    I’d like to offer Minnie the Finn’s summer place.
    Do you think we should consult her?

  32. says

    @ chigau

    Do you think we should consult her?

    {pan to image showing a tardigrade laboriously peddling it’s unicycle along the Great Silk Road in the general direction of Helsinki.}

    No, we better not!

  33. chigau (違う) says

    Everyone needs to watch The Magic Christian.
    Yul Brynner in drag singing Mad About the Boy.

  34. says

    Hope everyone enjoyed their Xmas!

    Just home from Boxing Day day shift, there is lots of Norovirus around in Melbourne, and I was on gastro duty today. Not my most glamorous 10 hours, but there you go, copped one for the team.

  35. says

    Mine was delightfully peaceful. Some skyping with one family & phone with the other, but mostly peace and quiet and too much food and drink. Today is even quieter, with much less food & drink. Looking forward to Dr Who Xmas special tonight.

  36. FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker) says

    Uhm, Tony? We only have two acres.

    Those forty acres behind our place are owned by farmers. Farmers with guns. Farmers with guns and a demonstrated willingness to use them. Farmers with guns who, after demonstrating their willingness to use them on trespassing animals, then used the very same guns to threaten the owners of said dead animals. We kinda avoid them in the same way one avoids snakes.

    Besides, those 40 acres are subject to inundation in a rather major sorta way. Unless the commune is going to be building arks we’d better stick to the high ground. Across the highway is a pine plantation. I hear that the margin in pine has dropped to the point where they’re probably willing to sell cheap. Or in the event of an apocalypse they’re not likely to do anything about defending that land.

  37. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Sooo, remember that profile message I wrote for a dating site (last thread)? I had somone message me specifically because it was thought provoking and gave a window into who I am. He lives in South Dakota currently, but moves back to Pensacola next month. We chatted a few times on the phone and the conversation had a great flow between us. Only thing I have never dealt with–religion. I haven’t dated anyone long enough since I became an atheist, feminist SJ advocate, so my beliefs haven’t conflicted with anothers’. This guy is a recent convert to Islam (although strangely he has already rationalized his homosexuality with his religion, which is not friendly towards homosexuals ) on a journey to develop himself spiritually and fight the sins of the flesh (paraphrasing him). He hasn’t proselytized or anything, but given my anti theistic beliefs, I almost anticipate some tense conversations. My roomie, E, said I should just respect his beliefs, to which I said I respect people, but not stupid beliefs (adding that I would mock someone claiming to have an invisible pink dragon in their garage every bit as much as I mock silly superstitious religious beliefs).

  38. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Ok, so first order of business is to simply inform your neighbors that we shall be relocating them. I am sure they will understand.
    Secondly, this is the Pharyngula Commune. We don’t do arks. Patheos does arks. we do self sustained private ecosystems built by Nerd and theophontes*.

    Theophontes, if you are reading, when I tried to get my ‘speak to text’ to type your nym, it came out ‘feel fine tease’.

  39. chigau (違う) says

    re: relationship with a ‘recent convert to…’
    Please proceed with extreme caution.

  40. FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker) says

    And speaking of Chez Fishy:


    Why yes, watching concrete dry is exactly as exciting as it sounds, thanks for asking.

    Mind you, it is possible that I will come home to find a shed in some stage of completion on the other slab. T he builder showed up at the back door this morning to collect a box of shed bits that we’d been storing.

  41. says

    @ FossilFishy

    watching concrete dry

    EEEEEeeeeeepppPPPP!!! Don’t let that happen ever!

    (Concrete should set, not dry. It is a chemical reaction very much dependent on there being water about. Hose it down, hose it down!)

  42. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Uh oh.
    FossilFishy, can you elaborate? I am looking for some advice/guidance.

  43. chigau (違う) says

    Just generic.
    Your commitment to rationality would make it difficult to start a relationship with someone who has recently abandoned rationality.

  44. chigau (違う) says

    I’m sorry.
    My internet connection is fucking-up.
    I’ll be back tomorrow.
    ie about 8 hours
    *hugs to all*

  45. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Well, after all the lies and threats and blustering and grandstanding and whining and general bullshit, I finally have proof that my scumbag ex is still drinking.

    Merry fucking Christmas. >.>

  46. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    True. That said, while I haven’t pried-much-I didn’t get the impression he recently abandoned rationality, so much as he traded one irrational system of beliefs for another. Point taken though.

  47. Beatrice says


    Don’t worry, I was just being a demanding whinger. :)
    I went to bed early.


    I hope you’re not in pain any more by the time you’re reading this.


    You won’t get a cookie for cleaning, then, but you’ll get one for sounding sort of brilliant in general.


    Good luck with the plan! May your sil and mother be predictable, and your birthday peaceful and fun.


    This guy is a recent convert to Islam…. fight the sins of the flesh (paraphrasing him).

    He may have rationalized his homosexuality in the “no, I don’t deserve to die because of this” way, but it doesn’t sound like he’s exactly at peace with his desires.

    I’m certainly not a relationship expert, but I third the advice to proceed with extreme caution if at all.


  48. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    It is so much fun playing with the felines. First it was the laser pointer. Then I broke out the catnip. Then I hit upon the idea of hiding cat treats like Easter eggs. What fun.
    now watching Blade.

  49. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    In our chats, I got no indication of self hatred for being gay. I should have mentioned that the sins he said he’s fighting against were explicitly stated as being drinking and drug use. He said he fell in bad with the wrong crowd and went to South Dakota to get away from them. When we talked about Islam and homosexuality, he said that he believes in the end that Allah will not judge him for loving a man if he lives a good life.

  50. Beatrice says


    I misunderstood then, since people usually include sex into sins of the flesh. Especially when it comes to non-impregnating kinds of sex.

  51. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Yeah, I was unclear in my initial details. The sex thing is one area I likely do not have to worry about. He has been quite explicit about his desires.
    I also do not think he has fully embraced Islam. He has made comments about searching for himself and trying to find his place. I get the feeling he’s going through what many of us have and has partially embraced Islam as a way of figuring out what he wants out of life and himself.

  52. says

    @ Azkyroth

    *more hugs*

    @ Tony

    IIRC, although Mohammad was straight (if one can believe the tales), this was not the case with many of his followers at the time. Not much was made of it then – perhaps in order to not upset the choir.

  53. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Speaking of non impregnating sex, I had a conversation at work with a guy who’s GF is pregnant with their child. He also said he wants more kids but no time soon. When I mentioned that he shoyld wear a condom if he wants to prevent that, he said he doesn’t like using them. He said they don’t feel as good as skin to skin. He then asked me if I used condoms. To which I deadpanned “I don’t have to worry about pregnancy”. And walked off. It took a few seconds before the light bulb went off and he and two others busted out laughing. A minute later I came back and added that condoms also help prevent STIs.

  54. says

    although Mohammad was straight (if one can believe the tales)

    Well he was straight and his wife raked in the money, acording to the tales.

    Speaking of non impregnating sex, I had a conversation at work with a guy who’s GF is pregnant with their child.

    Lesbian couple one of which is a Consultant at my work just had their second surrogate child, one each now. It’s very sweet, and nothing weird about it afaiac.

  55. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    I was speaking of gay male sex as being non impregnating in a matter of fact way. Not in a weird one.

  56. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    ” A petition to deport CNN host Piers Morgan over his heated comments on gun control has reached more than 62,000 signatures in just 4 days, far exceeding the threshold required for a White House response. A petition must get 25,000 signatures in 30 days in order to elicit a response.

    In the wake of the elementary school shooting in Connecticut that left 27 dead, Morgan has become a vocal advocate for tighter gun regulations. Specifically, he is calling for a ban on high-capacity magazines and assault weapons, as well as strict background checks on gun sales.”

  57. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Now maybe I can fucking DO something about it.

    On the other hand, I NOW realize I should have called the cops when she drove off. Fuck. :(

  58. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Fuck. Fuck fuck fuck fuck. I suppose there’s little chance she’d be pulled over but if she finally got caught DUI…


  59. says

    So, I had a thought this morning.

    What if sex-positivity was the way of the world? What if it weren’t so bad being sexual? What if people were more open to what they wanted and more willing to discuss and communicate? All within bounds of safety, consent, and communication.

  60. says

    @ Kitty

    What if sex-positivity was the way of the world? What if it weren’t so bad being sexual? What if people were more open to what they wanted and more willing to discuss and communicate?

    You will find that prudery is more the exception than the rule throughout human history. (Hell, even in very stuck up cultures, where it just goes underground.)

  61. says


    Well we’ve got a pretty damned prudish society here in the US (I know, US centric thought.) Can’t even show a nipple for two seconds without people going all insane… it’s a nipple for Pete’s sake.

    (On a side note, who the heck is Pete?)

  62. says

    (I know, US centric thought.)

    No, there is a lot of that going about.

    Sexuality used to be seen as divine, now (for too many) it is seen as just the opposite. Which really makes no sense at all.

    You will be pleased to know that all the good old ways are alive and well in Asia. (Though perhaps not quite to the extent of Khajuraho!)

  63. vaiyt says

    Well we’ve got a pretty damned prudish society here in the US (I know, US centric thought.)

    What you have is a society where a lot of people want to APPEAR chaste. The debauchery happens behind the scene.

  64. says

    Argh! I hate when I hear a song and realize I’ve heard it somewhere before, but can’t figure out WHERE I heard it before!

    Helena Beat by Foster the People. I’ve heard this song before I heard it on Pandora, and I don’t remember from where…

  65. says


    IIRC, although Mohammad was straight (if one can believe the tales), this was not the case with many of his followers at the time. Not much was made of it then – perhaps in order to not upset the choir.

    Indeed, Muslim nations were extremely tolerant of homosexuality (relative to Europe anyway) until around the 1700s IIRC, when the more fundamentalist strains started to dominate.


  66. says


    Supernatural beings don’t have human sexy-bits. They’re jealous.

    At least that’s in my stories they don’t have human sexy-bits, since they’re either spirits that travel between human bodies or pure magical energy that sometimes takes on human form.

  67. says


    I guess not.

    (Though again, story-related, none of my deities are omnipotent and they’re only immortal by definition of being undying – the elementals are made of energy that is dragged up out of the leylines into people and objects and when said objects are destroyed or people die the energy circulates to the earth, the gods are an eternal spirit that will forever hop between the bodies of people, who die, a lot.)

  68. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    I had a discussion a few days ago with a guy if he was talking about oral sex. he mentioned that 1 girl he was previously with frequently used teeth during oral sex, which made him cringe. I asked him if he talked to her about it, but he didn’t. I explained to him that if you’re open and honest with the person you’re having sex with, you should be free to discuss the things you like and the things you don’t like. If you don’t talk about your sexual activities,you cannot expect people to get better.

  69. says

    Christmas seriously fucking ended about 20 minutes ago. Thank goodness.


    Well we’ve got a pretty damned prudish society here in the US (I know, US centric thought.)

    As a European, I say yes.
    Seriously, US sex scenes (her still wearing her bra because of tits, the L-shaped sheets that cover him to the hip and her to the chin) and the frequent uproar when there was a suggestion of female nipple somewhere are the running joke over here. Not saying we’re all wonderfully sex-positive and fine and dandy, but more relaxed.

  70. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    I think I became more sex positive years before I heard the term, simply because I stopped treating sexual activity as something hush hush. I started discussing things with any partners (at least more often). In conversations at work-restaurants are notorious for sex talk-I would try go drop ‘communicating with your partner’ into the chit chat. I also became fairly blunt when heterosexual men would ask me sexual questions.

  71. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    I were a giant I would open a restaurant called Fe Fi Phô Fum and only serve phô made with British ex-rock stars

  72. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    It still amazes me the uproar over Janet Jackson’s boob falling out , because yo boobs are bad. And that was during halftime show for an extremely violent American sport. Americans are more comfortable with violence than sex, but how big is the porn industry…?

  73. rq says

    I think Pete = St. Peter, but I can’t back it up at the moment.
    As for prudish societies, I had a similar thought today while changing for the concert. We’re an all-voices choir, and yet we always get the one changeroom, and everyone changes in front of everyone else, without the slightest bit of shame at a bit of flesh, men or women.
    It’s a situation that would never have been allowed in Canad.a

  74. rq says

    That’s not to say it’s a particularly sex-positive society. Just not prudish in the sense of nakedness = bad because nakedness = sex.

  75. Beatrice says


    Everything went well with the family gathering?

    I never understood parents who let their children watch movies with people chopping each other’s limbs off, but wouldn’t let them catch even a glimpse of sex (even the “sheets moving in a vaguely meaningful way” kind).

  76. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says


    Patheos does arks

    Ha! Gold star.

    You didn’t think of it because it’s hard to think of the right thing at the right moment, especially when that moment is a stressful one.


    I have strawberry-cupcakes, apple-cheesecake and brownies…

    Om nom nom nom


    Supernatural beings don’t have human sexy-bits. They’re jealous.

    Tell that to Zeus :D

    Whinging is okay, as long as I am correct in that I understand it to be somewhat similar to whining. I whine all the time. : )

  77. says

    My issue being sex positive is that my partners I’ve had so far don’t listen, my few times having sex have turned out the same. I like exploration of bodies, trying to find out what where feels good when you do that thing. Me touching them, them touching me, and when we’ve got ourselves worked up to the point of explosion – then we can have sex.

    Both of my partners have been straight to the sex. I told them – “I like when you explore my body” – and they maybe do it a few seconds at most before right to sex. And it’s disappointing (although exhilarating) that they both chose to enjoy me the same way. Blow/hand job. I hate that part of my body. They knew I was trans, but still.

    Not to say I didn’t enjoy it – I may hate it, but it still feels good.

  78. says

    Yep, everything went well, everybody behaved themselves, cake was yummie.
    BUt now I’m seriously glad this is over.
    Christmas eve we were at my parents’, the my in-laws’, then at home, yesterday we were at Mr.’s aunt and uncle for the big family reunion, which is actually very nice but exhausting and today everybody came here.
    What is really nice is that my brother in law’s boyfriend has become a no-brainer to everybody the way I always was.

    I never understood parents who let their children watch movies with people chopping each other’s limbs off, but wouldn’t let them catch even a glimpse of sex (even the “sheets moving in a vaguely meaningful way” kind).

    How did my friend always say?
    Slice up a woman in a movie, show in graphic detail how her intestines are removed and fry her up and the movie is PG12. Make that tit naked and it’s X-rated.

  79. cicely (Co-co-Prophet of the Equine Apocalypse) says

    perhaps we could exploit something like L-space
    all nice places connected…

    I like this plan. I endorse this plan heartily. And not just because I could winter over in one of the nice places in the other hemisphere.

    Tony: Cafeteria Islam???

    *hug* for Azkyroth. Majorly sucks.

  80. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says


    Both of my partners have been straight to the sex. I told them – “I like when you explore my body” – and they maybe do it a few seconds at most before right to sex. And it’s disappointing (although exhilarating) that they both chose to enjoy me the same way. Blow/hand job. I hate that part of my body. They knew I was trans, but still.

    Sorry you have had such crap experience with partners : ( Hopefully you can find someone someday who really listens and is more compatible with you in that way. Maybe with practice you can be more specific about what it is you want and find someone who cares enough to find out what that is.

  81. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    My 616 comes off sort of blaming you for your bad experiences, I’m sorry. I meant that communication about sex is difficult, because we are all-too-often conditioned to be abstract and vague about what we want. Shedding the training takes practice and work, is what I meant. It also takes a receptive partner who is trying to get free of the cultural expectations of demureness as well.

  82. Janine: Hallucinating Liar says

    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!

    The day after Labor Day, just as campaign season was entering its final frenzy, FreedomWorks, the Washington-based tea party organization, went into free fall.

    Richard K. Armey, the group’s chairman and a former House majority leader, walked into the group’s Capitol Hill offices with his wife, Susan, and an aide holstering a handgun at his waist. The aim was to seize control of the group and expel Armey’s enemies: The gun-wielding assistant escorted FreedomWorks’ top two employees off the premises, while Armey suspended several others who broke down in sobs at the news.

    The coup lasted all of six days. By Sept. 10, Armey was gone — with a promise of $8 million — and the five ousted employees were back. The force behind their return was Richard J. Stephenson, a reclusive Illinois millionaire who has exerted increasing control over one of Washington’s most influential conservative grass-roots organizations.

    Stephenson, the founder of the for-profit Cancer Treatment Centers of America and a director on the FreedomWorks board, agreed to commit $400,000 per year over 20 years in exchange for Armey’s agreement to leave the group.

    Dick Armey attempted an armed coup of a Tea Party group and gets paid off for his efforts. Grass roots, my fucking ass.

    And he is being paid off by the man who owns Cancer Treatment Centers For America.

  83. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    what that what? Literally an armed coup. I can’t fathom it…who are these megalomaniacs and why are we giving them any shred of credibility in our political discourse?

  84. Janine: Hallucinating Liar says

    Should not Dick Armey, Susan Armey and the unnamed armed muscle be charged instead of being paid off.

    The fucking Mafia must be looking on with envy.

  85. Socio-gen, something something... says

    May I just say… FUCKKKKKK! I made a cup of tea this morning, walked out of the kitchen and tripped over the …board thing between two rooms (?) … and flung my cup of tea in the direction of my coffee table before crashing to the floor. I’m fine, though there are probably bruises forming but the worst? I splashed my laptop!! Luckily the mug itself missed everything important and just shattered on the floor.

    I unplugged it super-quick, but I don’t have the right screwdriver to open the back, so hopefully, just lying on a towel (keyboard down) near the heater for a couple days will be enough to dry it out and keep anything horrible from happening.

    So, now I’ve dragged the ancient and pitiful Averatec out and it is soooo slow. It’s like the old days of dial-up – I might as well bring a book to pass the time while each page loads. Forget opening more than one tab or *sad face watching Netflix. And that’s if the wireless adapter can hold the connection for more than ten minutes. Argh!

    On the bright side (yes, I’m desperate to find one), I’ll have more time to read.
    — —

    It sounds like he’s in the “I need to believe in something because otherwise I’ll go back to where I was” stage. I think a lot of people go through this, having had “You’re a terrible terrible sinner” pounded into them, often from childhood. It’s hard to overcome that and believe that although you made mistakes in the past, you are a different person now who doesn’t need a god to keep you from repeating them.

    Since he believes he won’t be judged for his orientation as long as he lives a good life, it might be that, as your relationship progresses, he can begin to see that living a good life doesn’t require gods.


    My mum has developed a healthy skin tone -for Marge Simpson…

    Oh..dear. Hope the visit with the grannies went well. Or at least wasn’t completely horrid.

    I found it rather amazing just how much better my sex life got when I was finally comfortable enough to tell my partners what I liked and what I didn’t and what I wouldn’t even try. A few were of the “oh you’ll like it when I do it” variety, but the best ones (including FWB) listened and were (I think) more comfortable telling me what they liked, didn’t, wouldn’t try as a result.

    Yep. The idea that sex is some horrific thing that will scar children forever, but hey, here’s SAW XXIII, is just fucked up.

  86. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    I did that with tea to my laptop a few weeks ago. Your exact solution fixed my laptop right up pretty quickly. Once everything has drained there’s not much more to be done. You should be netflixing again soon : )

    Speaking of which, I am loving Kerry Washington in Scandal.

  87. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Ok, this is over a month old, and may have been covered, but what the heck, it still raises my ire:
    (Short wall o text):
    ” For eight years James Finley went to work for VCU’s women’s volleyball team. For eight years he pouredhis heart and soul into his team of women. And on Monday November 19th, James Finley was fired. Finley says the reasons for his contract termination are simple. It wasn’t his winning record. It wasn’t his personal commitment to the team. It wasn’t the move to a tougher competing conference his team earned under his guidance. According to Finley, it was because he was openly gay.

    People picked the Rams to take 6th place. Instead they took 3rd, with a final record of 25-6 overall in the regularseason – theygot as far as the semi finals – a solid standing for a team in their first A10 championship.

    On Nov. 19th, the Monday after they returned from the championships, Coach Finley had a message waiting for him from AD McLaughlin’s secretary. “They wanted a confidential meeting,” said Finley. He figured it was to discuss his contract renewal -most VCU coaches are on year-to-year contracts, and at the end of seasons, coaches and administration get together to discuss their future together.

    But when Finley met with McLaughlin this time, the conversation was different. “He said they wanted to go in a different direction,” said Finley. The new direction did not includeFinley as the head coach of his team. It did not include Finley on staff at all. [T]here were several red flags that popped up throughout the season leading up to this moment.

    “From the beginning he interacted with other coaches, staffs, other teams. He participated [with them], and with ours he didn’t… At booster events, he avoided me whenever I was there. [I’d be] having a conversation with him and he’d walk away when I was trying to talk to him. I’d say ‘Hi’ and he’d look up at me, and put his head back down and not acknowledge me.”

    Finley didn’t think much of the issue as the season passed, but on Oct. 5th, when Pat Stauffer, a 30-year-veteran of VCU athletics and an open lesbian, was demoted from Senior Women’s Administrator to Sr. Associate AD for Sports Administration. It was too much for Finley, it was another red flag.”

  88. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Odd. I put everything within italics, and it showed up in preview correctly. Huh.

  89. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    I had this one guy who liked to spank and scratch during sex…both of which turn me off. During the sex I didn’t say anything (this was around the time I was learning how to become more comfortable talking about what turned me on and what doesn’t). The next morning, I told him and from then on and he was very receptive. He never did either again, and it made the sex soooo much better.

  90. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Frustration of the day: trying to do my annual attorney registration and the damn bank closed my trust account. Without telling me. Because there was no balance. After they withdrew the amount they told me to deposit for paying for the checks. The whole point of the account is that it sits empty until I have client money to put in it. Arg. I would love to not be the one to have to deal with this anymore, that “regular job” is looking better all the time.

    Happy of the day: my newest client is an adopted baby. I was asked to serve as a guardian ad litem in an adoption. I’m tempted to ask to meet with the client, so I can squee in person. : D

  91. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Have a pastry, on me and hugs for the bummer part.

    Now have a chocolate covered, lightly powdered sugar topped pastry for the squee!

  92. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Thanks, Tony. :D *scarf*

    And so as not to get too meta, I will take my bow over here for my miniscule contribution to the feminism thread : )

  93. rq says

    The Feminism thread is still alive? I’ll have to go look for your addition!
    Also: the Family went out for a walk today. As we crossed the parking lot, a black Porsche pulled out of a spot, and I though to myself, That car is totally the wrong colour.
    Also, congrats on the new client! :)

    I’m still not very good at articulating what I want, but I keep getting better at it – mostly because rare is the person with whom I feel fully capable of expressing myself without the fear of being ridiculed or being told that that’s not actually what I want. Two factors have helped me: 1) the Husband being who he is; 2) this guy I saw years ago who had a very open and communicative attitude towards sex – the kind you’re supposed to have, and it was a huge revelation that people like that actually existed. Didn’t see him for very long, but a lot of what he said has stuck with me (in a good way).

  94. dianne says

    Happy of the day: my newest client is an adopted baby. I was asked to serve as a guardian ad litem in an adoption. I’m tempted to ask to meet with the client, so I can squee in person. : D

    Shouldn’t you meet the client, to ensure that s/he is being treated well and in good health (with extra bonus squee if all is well)?

    Sorry, but my view of adoption is a little dark.

  95. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Thanks rq

    You’re right. However, I’m told the Chinese end of the adoption is totally formalized (I’ll be getting the paperwork in a few days) and this step in the process is just to have the American courts recognize the adoption. From what I’ve heard and read, Chinese authorities are pretty strict about the adoption process. Not that any of this means I don’t have responsibilities to the child by virtue of my accepting the case.

  96. dianne says

    And he is being paid off by the man who owns Cancer Treatment Centers For America.

    Interesting. I always instinctively felt that CTCA must be evil but now I’ve got solid evidence. Beyond anecdotes of dumped patients, of course.

  97. Socio-gen, something something... says

    The real turning point for me was realizing I had to speak up because certain things really trigger my memories of past abuse. A playful tap or holding my head or hands in a certain way, for example, not only kills the mood in an instant, they can sometimes turn me into a sobbing puddle. Which, because I’d never said anything, left my partners utterly bewildered and made things worse each time afterward as we were trying to avoid repeats without ever discussing why it happened. And, in my experience, absolutely no one believes, “It’s not you…” :)

    WTF? They’re a bank…how can they not understand how a trust account works? If they can’t handle something as relatively simple as this, I don’t know that I’d trust them with my retirement or any kind of complex financial planning.

  98. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    That’s exactly why SO doesn’t even playfully hold my arms to tickle me or something like that. He knows it will result in hyperventilating, ha. He’s been great at believing “it’s not you” for the most part : )

    Bank: yeah, I’m extremely peeved. I think it might have been one incompetent employee. But damn. Still. Quite the oversight.

    Another item in the list of ways taking the “regular job” would be a good thing: I would no longer be in a position where I’m leveraged as a bargaining chip because of my alleged attractiveness. The attorney I’m subcontracting for literally told me he believes he can use having me around as a way to get what he wants because “attractive women can get whatever they want.” I feel dirty. And worthless. And like I stepped into Mad Men and I can’t figure out how to get out.

  99. rq says

    Eh. Was going through the Once again the Lord… thread of PZ’s, read this comment and was immediately reminded of this oldie. I think it was the use of the (non)word bannanage in association with horrible, terrible slimy things. Posting here because doesn’t seem relevant to that thread.


    Feel free to ignore the following.
    Sometimes I don’t know what I’m doing here. I mean, y’all are great and all, but some days, like today, there’s just this huge disconnect between how much I like this place and the whole purpose of me being here. Or something. I just… you know, like I shouldn’t be here because I can’t keep up? Or something. Not articulating well right now.
    Sorry for more emotional-dumping. It’s been a terrible holiday season (but not in any specific way) and I can’t quite put my finger on why (but it has something to do with yesterday at the parents’ and all that Jesus’-birthday crap, and also being generally exhausted in all kinds of ways over the past couple of weeks). Also, I realize a lot of you out there are having a much worse time of everything in all kinds of ways, so I feel bad for putting this here, but I don’t know where else to do it.

  100. Beatrice says

    And like I stepped into Mad Men and I can’t figure out how to get out.

    Only a couple of days in the workplace and I’ve already been met with that curious kind of sexism where I’m supposed to be treated “like a lady”. Had to act all stealthy while helping a coworker move some boxes so that the (woman) boss doesn’t notice and reprimand him.

    Also, the “marry a rich man so that you don’t have to worry about money” jokes. Because I’m young, that kind of joking is absolutely appropriate, right?

    Some kind of sexism is everywhere.

  101. Beatrice says


    I like that you’re here.

    If it helps any, I’m feeling out of place here often too. Especially lately. I used to comment in other threads more often, but I can’t find anything intelligent to say on any given topic any more, so I mostly babble here or in Thunderdome.

    I hope you’ll manage to rest a bit and that the remaining holidays won’t be too stressful.

  102. Tethys says

    /utterly threadrupt.

    Hey horde, guess what? My DIL has filmed a show for TLC. It premiers on the 27th and it is called Wives with Beehives

    *watches clips but DIL is only on screen for 2 seconds*


    /begin sad ranting and run-on sentence
    I was hoping they focused on the ‘enthusiastic collector of cool vintage stuff aspect, but it features some ridiculous “backstory” of women who want nothing more than to stay home to cook and clean and perhaps have some babbys while big strong hubby works all day and every aspect of her daily life revolves around serving him and is hollywood BS and arrghhhhhh………….

    /end rant

    I hope someone here at FtB can watch it and do a horde style critique, or use it as a case study in media in pop culture. Maybe it isn’t as bad as the previews lead me to believe?
    *crosses tentacles*

    I hope everyone had a lovely monkey, and now I’m going to scan through the monster feminist thread and see if there is any good troll chomping to be had.

  103. Socio-gen, something something... says

    One of the things I really loved about the FWB* from the first was that he didn’t just listen, but affirmed that he understood why those things were a problem and even asked questions to make sure he got it right. When we finally started becoming intimate, he went slowly, asking at each incremental step if what he was doing was okay, was I okay. And, on the very rare occasion when something isn’t right, he does believe “it isn’t you” and he’s okay with backing off until I’m ready to try again, whether that’s a few minutes or a few days (which is rare now).

    *I feel like I should find another name for him, because he’s much more than just a friend I use for sex. We have a really close relationship, and I trust and respect him more than any other man I’ve been with, mostly because he makes it clear that he respects me and my opinions/values. We just like having our own spaces and using FWB makes that more understandable to others.

    Gee, nothing like being valued for your appearance instead of your skills and abilities. What a jerk!

    I feel that way too, sometimes, especially when school’s in session and I’m lucky if I have time to read the OPs. I mostly stick to the Lounge because (especially in the contentious threads) the regulars say everything a hundred times better than I could and they do so long before I get there. Plus, it takes me awhile to write out any sort of thoughtful response, so the whole conversation has moved to another point before I post. But when I haven’t been around the Lounge much, I feel awkward about coming in because I have no idea what’s been going on, and haven’t got time to read through and catch up.

    For what it’s worth, I love that you’re here and I always look forward to reading your comments.


    That sounds…hmm…interesting (not really). It being on TLC does not give me a good feeling.

    No good trolls, sadly. Just the same pitiful non-evidenced opinions. “Dworkin! MacKinnon!” was the latest “gotcha feminists!” card to be played (again) when last I looked.

  104. rq says

    Thanks. I think I’m just too tired to feel useful, and I’m hoping a return to a more ordinary schedule in the New Year will solve most of these issues.
    In the meantime, I feel your pain about the job and the sexism (haha, funny, that joke again :P). Many *hugs* for you too.
    Personal share on the topic: When we’re out in the country, I make it a point not to let any of the guys carry heavy pails for me. I’ve had actual tug-of-wars with Husband’s younger brother about these things (I win because he doesn’t want to spill and I’m more stubborn), and I know they mean well, but it’s just so annoying. If I need help, I’ll ask for it, thanks.
    Yeah, Mad Men are alive and well. Everywhere. :(

  105. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    When I first started reading here, I lurked a while. Once I worked up the courage to post, I stayed mostly here (TET back in the day). I still lurked across FtB, but didn’t know enough to join any conversations. For a while I felt bad for only chatting in the Lounge/TET. Then I started asking myself what I was doing here. I realized that this space is a safe zone with genuinely compassionate people where I can be myself and share in the laghs and tears and successes and occassional failures. More importantly, I realized that there is nothing wrong with not helping out in other threads. I had felt guilty reading some of the regulars taking on creationists or MRAs or general anti skeptical thinking while I just sat back and watched. It was like I felt there was some obligation to post ‘in the threads that mattered’. Once I realized there is no such obligation…that I am free to post or not post wherever, it really freed me. Thats when I started clicking on links people provided as well as exploring various subjects. It’s like once I realized I didn’t HAVE to make a contribution, I realized I wanted to…if that makes sense.

    So please do not think that you are obligated to post anything. You are not obligated to defend sexism. You do not have to say anything about the latest WLC stupidity. Just continue doing what you like and feel comfortable with. If and when that changes, then you make the decision.

    No pressure.
    No requirements.
    No obligations.

  106. rq says

    And thanks, Socio-gen. :) I feel reassured in a strange way – I have nothing to contribute, but I don’t need to contribute…

  107. Beatrice says


    Everyone is being so damn nice to me, it’s hard to resent them anything. I’m hoping these are all just misguided efforts to make the new worker feel welcome.

    off to bed, might check the Lounge in the morning if I get up in time

  108. rq says

    Good night, Beatrice!

    Thanks for that.
    I guess I do somehow feel that I should help in the defence because I’m here, but I know how much time it would take, and I don’t have it… I also know I don’t have any obligations, but sometimes, when it feels like everyone is putting in so much effort and I’m running around doing a bunch of other stuff (even though I know the internet can’t take over my life because I have obligations), it just feels… odd.
    Don’t worry, though. In another 18 years or so the kids will all be grown and legally sendable-out-into-the-world, and I can engage fully. :) I’ll stick around and be useless/-ful here to the best of my ability.

  109. opposablethumbs says

    Huh. I chucked in a couple of little comments on the feminism thread a couple of hours ago, and I’m ashamed to realise that I didn’t pick up on the latest MRA-alike markneil’s unfounded demonisation of Dworkin but just allowed that to slide while I tried to pick up on other aspects of his dishonesty.

    I have so much to learn.

  110. Socio-gen, something something... says

    Realizing that I can just hang out and chat and don’t have an obligation to do more was such a relief because I feel like I have a long way to go before I’m as knowledgeable or as articulate as the regulars when it comes to discussing most subjects. Especially when it comes to skewering the trolls and MRAs.


    Oh that makes it tough. I find it easier to deal with sexism from jerks than sexism from genuinely nice people. *crossed tentacles* that it’s just welcoming gestures.

  111. carlie says

    Anyone a Les Mis fan? I have an irrationally strong fondness for it, given that it is all about redemption in a religious sense, because it was the first big professional musical I ever saw performed live (and hey, the music is catchy and there’s that number about loving a guy who doesn’t know you exist and when you hear it as a teenager OMG IT IS ALL ABOUT ME). Just saw the movie.

    Thoughts, in random order:

    Holy crap, but poor Russell Crowe should not have been cast in this movie. There are people who can act and sing at the same time and make it work, and there are people who can’t. He can’t.

    In a similar vein, you can definitely tell which actors are screen actors and which have theater experience, particularly musical theater experience. It’s quite obviously more natural looking for the ones who know how to do it. Anne Hathaway has gotten a lot of acclaim for being able to cross the boundary, but I thought she still wasn’t as believable as some of the other characters.

    The opening sequence was totally meh. That’s the part that’s supposed to grab your right in, and maybe it was the lower volume at this theater, but eh. Bland. And then the scenes where Valjean goes trekking off looked straight out of LOTR CGI.

    It did a very good job of clarifying the parts that are confusing and poorly explained in the musical. I was happy that the storyline was a lot more understandable.

    There were several musical/lyrical changes, and I was surprisingly fine with all of them. Some were even improvements.

    So I’m glad I saw it, and there are things that a movie can do better than a stage production and they took full advantage of that, but I still like the renewed stage version better.

  112. chigau (違う) says

    The Lounge could be Dagobah and you’re all like Luke in training to battle TheDarkSide…
    but then where (or who) is Yoda?

  113. Nepenthe says


    I will forever be a fan after playing in a pit orchestra for a production of it. This might be Stockholm Syndrome though, because I’ve probably seen the whole thing 30 times*.

    *It was a high school production, not a professional one where you do two run throughs and then the show.

  114. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    We all of us have much to learn.
    For my part, I want to learn more about various logical fallacies and how to detect and counter them. Several of the regulars are excellent at that.
    I stick to what I know and feel comfy with.
    For instance in the feminism thread, currently markneil is arguing over defining terms. I may not know how to argue as well as others, so I approach him from where I feel comfortable.

    Ok, you are trying to bog us down in definitions. Why? Here is your definition. Why are you still stuck on this? What is your definition if you’re dissatisfied with ours? Keep your eye on the ball. What is the challenge PZ posted? Are you meeting that challenge or just wanking in the locker room? .

    I love watching consciousness razor or nick gotts, or sgbm or john morales or sastra or janine verbally eviscerate someone with strong arguments. I ain’t as skilled at that, so I go with what works.

  115. Socio-gen, something something... says

    I ran into something …different. I follow Guerrilla Feminism on Facebook and today they posted a warning to their commenters to stop with the transphobic comments (which I was glad to hear because some of it was rather vile.) I go to read the comments and see this:

    Seriously. I am currently transitioning from a white male to a female of color and this is not why I come to this page.

    Several commenters have questioned the person who made that statement, expressing the same confusion I have: how do you transition from one race to another? Maybe it’s a real thing about which I’m uneducated, but it seems like, after some 3-4 years of reading Pharyngula, this is something that, in the context of so many previous discussions, might have come up at some point.

    I’m willing to be wrong, but this just rubs me the wrong way.

  116. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    I am baffled. Would be curious to know if/how that is possible.

  117. says

    I feel the same way, a lot of the time. It takes a lot of my mental energy just to psyche myself up to post at all, and frankly I get a lot better kind of feedback here than I do in most of the other threads. When it’s on a topic I’m particularly interested in, and I feel like an argument, (since that often results), I’ll post on another thread, but honestly lately I’ve been dealing with enough stuff in my personal life that I hardly have the energy to even read most of the posts/threads anymore. I’d like to again sometime, but I don’t know when that will be.

    Pretty ‘rupt and have things I need to do, will talk more later.

  118. says


    The Lounge could be Dagobah and you’re all like Luke in training to battle TheDarkSide…
    but then where (or who) is Yoda?

    I think we’re all Luke AND Yoda, depending on the needs of the moment. Except for Tony, who occasionally gets to be Lando in a snazzy hat. :)

  119. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Can I be Chewie?
    I’m pretty strong, don’t betray my friends and am quite loyal…

  120. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says


    I’ll try to find a link, but I’ve read progressive POC bloggers who view that sort of thing as huge bullshit. (Transitioning races, not genders, obviously). There are also people who claim they are victimized by society because they are non-human animals stuck in human bodies. They claim oppression par with POC and other marginalized grroups.

  121. chigau (違う) says

    If we’re all Luke AND Yoda, we’re probably all Spartacus, too.
    and maybe even perfect cherry-blossoms.
    and we should all get hats.

  122. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Funny how we all deal with stress differently. Sometimes I have the same reaction as you. Other times, I like diving into a post that pisses me off enough to distract from my stress.

  123. carlie says

    Nepenthe – the guy who’s been Valjean the most times has almost 2000 performances, not counting rehearsals. I can’t imagine coping with that much repetition.

    Hope everyone’s coming off the holiday bump ok.

  124. carlie says

    I guess it *could* be someone who’s biracial and passing white, but then they’ve gotten a lifetime of white privilege and that’s how people initially react to them, so finally broadcasting their status wouldn’t really change a whole lot.

  125. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Thanks for that link. I am with that blogger. “Trans ethnic”, “trans fat”, that is a huge slap in the face to trans* people everwhere who are discriminated against.
    How does one arrive at the “realization” that they should be 700 lbs, or disabled, or a wolf in human form?

  126. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Oh and demisexual:
    ” Demisexual

    A demisexual is a person who does not experience sexual attraction unless they form a strong emotional connection with someone. It’s more commonly seen in but by no means confined to romantic relationships. The term demisexual comes from the orientation being “halfway between” sexual and asexual. Nevertheless, this term does not mean that demisexuals have an incomplete or half-sexuality, nor does it mean that sexual attraction without emotional connection is required for a complete sexuality. In general, demisexuals are not sexually attracted to anyone of any gender; however, when a demisexual is emotionally connected to someone else (whether the feelings are romantic love or deep friendship), the demisexual experiences sexual attraction and desire, but only towards the specific partner or partners. “

    Does anyone have any exerience with this concept?

  127. Socio-gen, something something... says

    Erm…so the left is simultaneously trying to destroy marriage by demanding equal rights for the LGBT community while protesting funerals because God hates the LGBT community?

    I’m sure that makes sense in whatever alternate universe Fox inhabits.

    Well, it turns out it was a troll who did a really good job of derailing. He was just plausible enough to confuse the hell out of me. One thing he did point out was how quickly those who questioned him (almost all people of color) were jumped on by those who accepted what he said unquestioningly.

    Google tells me there are people who use the term “transethnic”* to describe themselves as having been born into the wrong race/ethnicity. Almost all are white and choosing to adopt the identity of an oppressed group. Because, of course, they have that option, unlike people of color. An example.

    *It is an actual term, but is normally (appropriately?) used to describe adopted children who internalize their adoptive parents’ racial identity.

  128. John Morales says


    Does anyone have any [experience] with this [demisexual] concept?

    No, but it seems used as a label for a particular position in the gradient (on the sexual attraction axis) from asexuality to hyper-sexuality, i.e. jargon when discussing certain concepts but not an ordinary word.

  129. Socio-gen, something something... says

    Stupid ancient laptop and crummy wireless adapter!

    Thanks for that link! My first reaction to that person’s claim on GF was “Appropriation!” But then I second-guessed myself by thinking perhaps this was an area of bias on my part, so I should at least consider it, even if it didn’t sound right. Which is why I asked about it here. If it was real, folks would let me know in no uncertain terms.

    That’s exactly what I thought of as well. But then, it’s not as if President Obama (for example) could suddenly announce he was now white. The only people who could “successfully” transition to a different race are those who (appear) to be members of the dominant group — and they’ll still benefit from privilege because they’ll be perceived by others as members of the dominant group.

  130. vaiyt says

    I don’t want to be a Jedi. In fact, I hate all the major players in Star Wars. They’re all agents of destruction, decay or stagnation. The Galaxy needs more healers and builders.

  131. John Morales says

    I don’t want to be a Jedi, either. I wanna be Yoda.

    (Hmm — trying to restrain my Yoda-speak, I’ve been)

  132. carlie says

    The Weather Channel just had a headline “deadly snow marches east”.
    Being a Doctor Who fan, I laughed.

  133. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    vaiyt: they are *all* agents of destruction?
    Certainly many of them have caused chaos and death, but like humanity, they have also done much good (here I speak of the Jedi).
    I guess when I think of an agent of destruction, I think their primary focus and actions are centered on causing destruction.
    A case can certainly be made for the characters trying to maintain the status quo, but more than that seems like overstatement.

  134. says

    Star Wars is deeply sexist, classist and otherwise hierarchical – which does trouble me. Many works of fantasy are, though, so I’m not quite sure that’s why I dislike it. I’m used to glossing over that kind of thing. I thought the original trilogy was ok, and I am mildly fond of it, but Lucas’ horrific prequels – AUGH!

  135. cicely (Co-co-Prophet of the Equine Apocalypse) says

    *hugs* for rq
    You do so belong here! And you “keep up” much better than I do. If you don’t belong here, then I don’t belong here, and I refuse to go!
    *tentacles wrapped and locked*

    And that goes for you, too, Beatrice. All of it.

    Also Socio-gen.

    Also, listen to Tony.

    And Dalillama.

    Possibly the whole socially-hesitant portion of the Horde?

  136. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Did you know that The Ikettes including Tina Turner sand the backup on Overnight Sensation (Frank Zappa)?

  137. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    I’ve been watching the British remake of Sherlock Holmes, Sherlock.

    Benadict Cumberbatch is fucking amazing, and has the most amazing British name ever.

  138. Janine: Hallucinating Liar says

    I’ve been watching the British remake of Sherlock Holmes, Sherlock.

    I wonder how that will work, making Holmes British. Strange twist.

  139. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Howard the Duck is a hilarious cult classic.
    I just watched the american Godzilla from the 50s and Alien vs Predator. I know, two extremes of movie quality.
    I tried watching the first ep of Sherlock, but got bored and didnt finish it.
    Is this season of Waehouse 13 good?
    I got a job tending bar at a resort here on Pensacola Beach…at exactly the wrong time, since tourist season ended back in October. I am really struggling right now. Assurances that things will get better in March do not help me now. The bartenders bank in tourist season, making anywhere from $1200-$2000 a week, but tight now I am not making $300 a week.

  140. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Rev: I really like that version, myself. Especially how they work in things like texting into the plot to emphasize the modernization.


    Just watched a bunch of silly rom coms with Mom. It was nice. Should go to sleep now. But I probably won’t.

  141. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Going on my fourth night of sleeping alone, and I tell ya what, I am *over* it.

  142. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Actually, I switched gears. Forgot I saw that installment of the Bourne series recently. When I recalled it, I decided to watch Peter Jackson’s King Kong.

  143. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Yeah I’m not really one for rewatching movies very much. The main exception is Princess Bride.

  144. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Belatedly, for rq when she wakes up:

    Big hugs, and I’m so glad you’re here. I feel silly hiding out in the Lounge sometimes, too, but everybody does what they can, when they can.

  145. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    I am so accustomed to sleeping alone that I don’t know what I would do if I had someone consistent to sleep with.
    Speaking of which, I spent some time today chatting with Mr recent convert, W. We have fun conversations and cover many subjects. Tonight we got on the subject of his beliefs. I have opted not to mention my atheism, bc I don’t want to color his perception of me. My profile gave him a taste of my values and I have dropped into our talks more things I value. I have chosen also to approach some things he says with subtle doubt and questioning. Tonight for instancd he mentioned that he cannot eat pork. I mentioned how odd I thought it was that his god would focus so much on unclean foods, especially if W thinks Allah will ignore his sexuality (provided he lives a good life). He also spoke of Jesus casting demons out of people and into pigs, which accounts for some of their unclean nature. To which I asked how he knows that is a true version of events and not a metaphor.
    Thus far, I feel more comfy merely asking questions if the subject comes up. I want to get to know him, not deconvert him. But I also cannot let the idiocies of religious belief go unchallenged. Boy, this new territory for me. Especially since I will not get to meet him t he moves back down here next month.

  146. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    I admire your restraint When I start talking to someone about their religious beliefs…I rend to get aggressive pretty quickly. Or I avoid the discussion altogether to avoid getting aggressive. I’ve told SO I think his parents are funding a despicable rape-enabling misgynistic death cult with their tithes to the RCC.

    But really, I’m glad for you that you are exploring the idea of getting to know someone new, and that you are doing so well treading relatively lightly. Sometimes it’s interesting in an almost anthropological sense to probe a person’s religious beliefs I’m excited for when you get to meet him, and see what he’s like in person. (Perhaps by next month he’ll have decided Islam isn’t for him…)

    I think I really will crash out now. Hopefully I’ll catch you tomorrow!

  147. ChasCPeterson says

    I don’t want to be a Jedi, either. I wanna be Yoda.

    then…you want to be a (particular) Jedi.

    If gender and race are merely social constructs, then anybody ought to be able to transition to whatever the hell they want. It’s all just self-identify. Right?

    Going on my fourth night of sleeping alone

    four whole nights?
    rough life.

  148. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    So the 20s setting for King Kong has some nice visual elements. I like some of the period piece sets but gaaaaaaaaaaah! I cannot enjoy anything without having my sexism filter in place. Cis, white female has alluring charms that can soothe the savage [man] beast and prevent his rages. Said man goes wildly head over heels for her, is massively protective of her, and yet often treats her like property. Yeah I know Kong is a big ape, but he is more an unrepressed animalistic, primitive man who needs the loving, nurturing female to ground him and keep him centered.

    For the love of all that is unholy–this somewhat sucks. Just as I can no longer shut off my critical eye when watching 1980s cartoons, I can no longer NOT see the sexism and gender stereotypes at play in movies.

  149. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    This is the Lounge, so I cannot say to you what I really want to, but your insensitive comment @703 pisses me off.
    Unlike Chas, I understand where you are coming from and hopefully you will have a fuller bed soon.

  150. says

    Tonight for instancd he mentioned that he cannot eat pork. I mentioned how odd I thought it was that his god would focus so much on unclean foods

    Well, technically, that was Yahweh’s idea 1500 years earlier, and Mohammed just stole it, like with most of the rest of the Koran.

  151. says

    When is the Koran said to have been written?

    That question is not so easy to answer. Mohammed received his “revelations” between 610 and 632 AD I think, but since god had chosen someone illiterate to receive his messages, they had to be written down by someone else, and so the texts were not assembled into a formal canon until the 8th or 9th century or so.

  152. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    If gender and race are merely social constructs, then anybody ought to be able to transition to whatever the hell they want. It’s all just self-identify. Right?

    Of course not, the same way an object can’t generally exert a force on itself.

  153. rq says

    Good morning!

    The Expendables – bad film; Sherlock with Benedict Cumberbatch – excellent series (if returning to cliches in later series – also, for lovers of BC’s voice, check this trailer out (I may have posted this before); Star Wars – childhood favourite, but it can’t be the Lounge because lack of strong female characters (and I’m sorry, I will not be Jabba the Hutt or Princess Leia – although she’s ok in the first book; also, Yoda is a Jedi, he’s like the most bad-ass Jedi of all time); the Bourne series – I’m just a Matt Damon fan, but I find those movies quite enjoyable overall (unlike the Mission Impossibles because I cannot stand Tom Cruise or his face; The Princess Bride is an awesome movie, but for re-watchable-ness, I love: Gladiator, the Battlestar Galactica intro mini-series, Music and Lyrics, Amelie, The Black Stallion and RED. Sometimes North by Northwest. Haven’t seen any version of King Kong.


    Major hugs for your empty bed (fill it with peas!), and an extra comment for comment #703. But good for being over it. :)

    I’m glad you’re moving forward and having lots of discussions, and also that you seem to be countering some of his religious claims with at least questions for him to think about – I just hope he really does think about them, instead of presenting the straight, pat answers to them, because if he becomes even more entrenched in his religion, it’ll be even more difficult for you to come out as atheist to him… For the moment, though, I believe it’s a good approach.
    I should also mention that I am extremely excited for you to be at the start of a relationship. It fills me with eeeeees on the inside, and I sincerely hope that the religious aspect works out to the massive, amazing benefit to the both of you!!

  154. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    If you can, watch the original, 1933 King Kong. A very good movie. The 2004 update was enjoyable, but a bit too long and scattered. I haven’t watched the 1975 Kurt Russell version in some time.

  155. rq says

    That god, so smart! He just knew Mohammed would remember everything correctly and that it would only take him 200 years to learn to read and write, thus transcribing everything perfectly!

  156. rq says

    Noted! I have a few so-called classics on which to catch up, and this old one is now, in fact, on my list (like the 1938 Robin Hood was, that’s a fun movie with lots of green tights…).

  157. says

    Good morning
    So, yesterday my car decided to turn into real estate.
    Need to call the dealer and hope they can fix it. Somehow the handbreak doesn’t open. The handle can be moved but the brakes stay shut…

    Hey, welcome to the place for people who feel slightly out of place

    communication and sex again
    Paying some conscious attention to the communication going on during sex, I was afraid about the kind of sex all those people who claim that “enthusiastic consent/communication is hard” are having.
    Now, two big caveats:
    Triggers and cultural conditioning
    The former obviously need to be communicated beforehand, the latter must be overcome in order to be able to communicate your likes at all.
    But: Everything was communication. You make a move, your partner reacts. Depending on that reaction you go on or stop it. And then one says something like “I really (don’t) like this” and you fucking pay attention and remember that.


    Does anyone have any exerience with this concept?

    Sounds a lot like “I’m a Saint who’d never ever have as much as sexual thought about anybody who is not my romantic partner” to me.
    It’s like they want a cookie and sympathy at the same time.

    I’m also wondering, what would the otherkin do if we could offer them the same kind of treatment we can give transmen and women? I guess there would be a lot of Very Good Reasons™ as to why they actually couldn’t become a dog or cat…

  158. rq says

    re: Les Miserables
    I do, actually, love the musical play, and I enjoyed the book (even though it seemed long and rambling at times), but I’m not sure about the movies – I saw the old(er) one with Liam Neeson, and wasn’t particularly impressed, but that was years ago. I should re-watch it.
    The main thing for me is the character of Javert. He’s been my favourite character probably since forever because I feel sorry for him – he goes through the whole story with this one goal in mind – that Valjean is a bad person who should be put away – and once he realizes that he’s wrong, he just can’t reconcile this revelation (that someone once bad isn’t always bad) with his world-view (that bad people are always bad) and become an awesome person himself. I don’t know why, but I always felt a deep connection to that way of thinking.
    I’ll probably see the new movie and like it despite its shortcomings (I do enjoy my Russell Crowe, mostly…).

  159. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Out of curiosity I did a search for “King Kong and sexism”. One site I came upon opened my eyes to more problems than sexism–
    ” King Kong is a movie about a group of civilized European white males venturing into the wilderness (lower civilization) to capture a savaged monster lurking in the wild to bring back to civilization for profits by a ship. This is obviously a metaphor for the slave trade, where white people undertake a journey into Africa to exploit and bring back blacks to become slaves.

    In various scenes of the film, King Kong was displayed as being violently abused for the amusement of the upper class white males. First, they capture him via chains, kept him captive in a (slave) ship, and then brought him back to New York for display and profitable entertainment without any concerns for his physical and psychological well-being
    I don’t know if the creators used racist and sexist ideas deliberately or not but the end result has strong sexist and racist undertones, which is in keeping with a society where racism and sexism permeate the culture .

  160. birgerjohansson says

    (Please notice that Norway and Denmark have swapped shirts)
    — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
    Speaking of re-reading classics, I just re-read “Wormwood, Gentleman Corpse”
    and found this line: “Who knew you could do that with butter and a yak?”
    — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
    “the texts were not assembled into a formal canon until the 8th or 9th century or so”
    and a lot of the companions of Muhammed were killed in the wars of succession, the survivors who contributed to the canon would have belonged to the winning side.

    There were many versions of the quran but a religious boss simply picked one as “correct” and had the others burned, much like the Christians did.
    Which did not prevent a plethora of different versions from cropping up afterwards.
    And every ve rsion is as full of inherent contradictions as the bible.
    And there are four different versions of the religious laws.

  161. says

    Ah, Jean Kazez apparently. Dr Jean Kazez. Talking about a panel discussion she did not attend. I see.

    (And hey Jean, I would have interrupted too, like you claim Rebecca did, on the panel she was, you know, on, had it not been for the fact that I didnt get the mic, so I just spoke to Rebecca about how to best address this lunacy, and she said she was going to mention it at the next panel discussion, which she did).

  162. Socio-gen, something something... says

    Popping in quick to say hi and I hate this freaking ancient laptop! I’m trying to be patient and let the good (newish) one dry out in its own time, but, holy hell, am I frustrated with having internet only for 5-10 minute bursts (which is about how long it takes a page to completely load!) followed by two hours of downtime — although there is the occasional rare hour or so where I can read, post, and re-load without being disconnected.
    — —
    Star Wars
    Not sure if I should admit this or not, but I don’t like Star Wars. I saw the first film as a kid and just…meh. Never worked up enough interest to watch any of the others.

    Rev. BDC:
    I like the new version of Sherlock. I just wish there were more episodes.

    I enjoyed this season of Warehouse 13. It’s bit darker than previous ones, though not hugely so until the last couple eps.

    I like your approach with W. By asking questions as you are, he has to think about his beliefs rather than reflexively defending them.

    *hugs* Sleeping alone when you don’t want to be sucks.

    There are very few movies I’d watch more than once, which is why my entire DVD collection is a 5-disc Live Aid collector’s edition boxed set, The Princess Bride, and The Breakfast Club.

    If you like Benedict Cumberbatch’s voice, you should check out Into the Universe with Stephen Hawking, if you haven’t seen it. He does the majority of the narration, speaking as Steven Hawking. (The transitions between the Hawking’s synthesized voice and BC’s are smooth enough that you never feel as though you’ve switched over to a narrator. You’re in Hawking’s mind the whole time.) The computer animation is incredible and Hawking’s work is presented in a way that anyone can understand.

    I also cannot stand watching any Tom Cruise movies. He has three facial expressions but doesn’t seem to know quite how to use them.

    Hope the car is soon moving again!

  163. birgerjohansson says

    “New study challenges old (zinc-related) views about evolution of early life”
    The comment thread includes some pre-emptive strikes against creationists inevitably claiming this disproves evolution. Also a fascinating comment about how we now can date Earth with an astonishing accuracy (+- 100.000 years) considering the age is ca. 4.5 Gy.
    — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
    “Zinn’s influential history textbook has problems, says Stanford education expert”
    Since Zinn merely intended his book to be a supplement to existing textbooks the quoted inaccuracies do not seem damning.
    I am also irritated over the claim that Zinn was writing from a “far left” perspective.
    From a European perspective, Zinn’s history is hardly shocking. Europeans are by now well aware that their own ancestors were bastards, wether you are talking about the slave-trading and colonial eras or more recent history. As I wrote in the comment thread “exceptionalism does not survive contact with reality”.

  164. birgerjohansson says

    Superheroes of Mammalia: “Did learning to fly give bats super-immunity?
    “What we’re hoping is bats can do something better than humans can, and maybe we can strive to reproduce it”
    — — — — — — — — — — — — —
    Supercomet to outshine the moon November 2013?
    — — — — — — — — — — — — —
    Cadaver stem cells offer new hope of “life after death”.
    — — — — — — — — — — — — —
    MRI can screen patients for Alzheimer’s disease or frontotemporal lobar degeneration

  165. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    I concur with and appreciate the respective parts of your 705 : )

    Good morning! Thanks for understanding my whining. Peas, hehe.

    I’m excited to see Star Trek with Benedict.

    Thanks. And sorry you’re still having computer trouble! Boo.

    If you like Benedict Cumberbatch’s voice, you should check out Into the Universe with Stephen Hawking, if you haven’t seen it.

    …and into the queueueue it goes.

    Hope the car is operational again soon. : / hugs and chocolate?

  166. says

    Oh, and I was meaning to ask:

    As far as this whole Greg Laden/Justin Griffith feud that seems to have grown to include Jason Thibeault and Stephanie Zvan… can I just call both of those people assholes and cross my fingers that they create some sort of bullshit black hole that eats both of them whole?

  167. says

    Sleeping alone can indeed suck; so much so that Roommate is prone to sleeping in our bed with us(She’s prone to dreadful night terrors, else)

    “What we’re hoping is bats can do something better than humans can, and maybe we can strive to reproduce it”.

    Fly? Just saying.

    “Zinn’s influential history textbook has problems, says Stanford education expert

    Because of course the usual history textbooks used in the U.S. are flawless exemplars of accuracy, completeness, and precision, right?


    they are *all* agents of destruction?

    Vaiys said ‘destruction, decay, of stagnation. The REpublic was, according to Lucas’ timeline, stuck the way it appeared in the first prequel for tens or hundreds of thousands of years, due to the Jedi Council. And the Republic was basically like the UN in that all the member planets seem to have their own laws and whatnot (including all kinds of heinous civil rights abuses on various planets), and the Jedi keep it that way;They’re actively preventing anyone from trying to fix that. Not really the good guys, in my book.


    There’s probably more I wanted to respond to, but it’ll have to wait. Ans also I know I’ve seen someone (possibly John Morales?) talk about making line breaks recently, but hell if I can find it right now.

    Xmas was not a disaster, although Brother got kind of straight white cis dood at L. Roommate was depressed and anxious anyway, and company drove her into the back of the apartment, from whence she did not emerge until they’d left. But dinner was very nice.

  168. dianne says

    I feel kind of guilty saying this, given the number of people who had horrible holiday experiences, but…I quite enjoyed Christmas. Made dinner for and hung out with relatives out of law on Christmas eve, went to work for a couple of hours on Christmas, then hung out with the nuclear family for the rest of the day. Came out at the end thinking we should do this more often.

  169. dianne says

    Joe, any time you want to move in and make sure I never besmirch the manly art of housekeeping by practicing it again, feel free. But be prepared for a challenge: I am not the world’s most naturally tidy person. And we’ll have to negotiate on this cooking thing. I like cooking. It allows me to live out my fantasies of being a 19th century mad chemist and yet also get something practical done at the same time.

  170. Beatrice says

    I read some comments at work, but wanted to respond when I got home. Now, I have no idea what I wanted to say to whom.

    So, to everyone: I’m really really happy I found this place because you people are awesome.

  171. opposablethumbs says

    I don’t think you should feel guilty for a second, dianne – on the contrary, I’m happy to know that some of the lovely Horders have had a good holiday! FSM knows you all deserve one! :-D

  172. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Does anyone have any exerience with this concept?

    Not directly. It seems plausible and could be unpleasant and marginalizing, both in the broader culture particularly for men who are SUPPOSED TO BE READY TO GO ANY TIME ANYWHERE WITH ANY SPECIES WHAT ARE YOU A FAG OR SOMETHING, and even in relatively enlightened spaces where people are more likely to erase those reported experiences rather than overtly attack them, but not comparable to transgender experiences.

  173. Socio-gen, something something... says

    Um, are they tinkering backstage, or is it just my computer doing a little freakout? The main page looks kind of like a mobile site — plain white background, no pictures, no ads, no banner, no sidebar.

    I’m only seeing it if I go to the main page from the Lounge. Once I click on a headline, or if I go from an OP to the main page, *poof* the regular site design is there.

  174. Socio-gen, something something... says

    Okay. I’m going to assume the problem is on my end….which it probably is. :)

  175. ImaginesABeach says

    I’m happy to hear (read?) that I’m not the only one who keeps getting the mobile site. I don’t have a smart phone, so it took me a while to figure out what it was that I was seeing. It happens sometimes, and other times I get the regular site. And clicking “Full Site” at the bottom doesn’t do anything.

  176. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    For the third day, I have a headache. I wish it would go away. Sigh. Oh well, I’m cozied up in quilts at my mom’s house.

    Dalillama, I’m glad I don’t have that much trouble sleeping alone. Poor Roommate. Yeesh.

    Dianne, glad you had a good Christmas. I agree, don’t feel guilty for a minute. : )

  177. says

    dianne, you’re funny but I doubt my wife would approve… unless you paid me, in which case? Who knows… my wife’s got her eye on the whole Coach bag display again. :)

  178. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Me too.
    I have Pharyngula bookmarked on my phone, so it opens fine, but when I click on any other blogs, I get the mobile view.
    Speaking of other blogs, you all should go check out Dispatches. Ed Brayton has weighed in on the anti FtB rhetoric in the wake of Al Steganelli’s video. I am not spoiling much by saying he takes the uncontoversial position on feminism that PZ, Greta, Jen, Stephanie, Ophelia, et al take.

  179. says

    I had a nice Christmas, too, although it was a lot of stress, so I’m glasd it’s over and I can finally start on making the christmas presents…

    If you want my take, Laden’s an arrogant asshole who can’t run a blog, but the shit he’s getting isn’t because of that but because he’s a feminist. Those who target him generally have no problem with behaviour like his, but they’re happy to go after him because they know he gets little support on accounts of being an asshole.
    Justin Griffith, otoh is just a hypocritical asshole who still wails over the “kick your ass” comment while happily tweeting about what to do to Laden.
    All in all, most of this should never have left the backchannel.

  180. rq says

    I’m very happy to hear you had a good Christmas. Mine was just bad because (a) increased parental religiosity (or at least heightened perception thereof) and (b) too much running around and not enough sitting still in one place, hence exhaustion, hence a vague unease, hence dislike of everything happening around me.

    I will definitely put Into the Universe on my list as well, but only because of Benedict Cumberbatch’s voice… I’m not interested in the science. ;)

    I hope the headache goes away soon! Here’s some home-remedy fennel tea. My dad swears it does all kinds of wonders; I have yet to see any, but it’s certainly a soothing taste, with honey (mild licorice without the sharpness?).

    You are awesome, too!!

    Improbable Joe
    What is this feud that’s been going on, or is it better not gotten into here? (I just know the vague back-story but if it’s spreading throughout FtB – is it worth knowing about?)

    You have to admit that the Jedi, as an obscure religious sect-gone-secular with strings in every government and a finger in every pie, don’t look all clean and shiny all the time. Not that the Empire’s any better, with the invisible long-distance choke-hold and general dislike of human rights and freedoms.
    I still like the movies, though. The old ones, not the new ones. But there are too many menfolk for my taste (yeah, I’m straight (Han Solo, anyone?), but you know how much I love strong women characters… :) ).

  181. rq says

    Ah, I have now read Giliell’s take on the Laden-Griffith story.
    Yeah, not going to catch up on that kind of crap.

  182. Nakkustoppeli says

    Socio-gen, I’ve had the problem with mobile layout/normal layout for some time now (approximately since the new layout was introduced), most of the time I get the normal layout, but often mobile.

  183. says

    I don’t know where else to ask this since I can’t find any links for tech support.

    Sudddenly today I started getting email notifications about new comments in a thread I’d posted in. I could find no place to disable this in the WordPress Dashboard, nor any relevant link on FTB, but finally noticed that there was a “manage subscriptions” link at the bottom of the emails. When I went there and deleted the subscription to the thread I was then sent “manage subscription” emails for every blog on FTB regardless of whether or not I’ve ever read them.

    What’s up with this and how do I disable it?

    I really don’t want any email notifications ever.

    (Note: I have not checked any boxes about notification below the message form, but I do notice that the “Preview” button is greyed out for me, so there may be a problem with the form submission.)

  184. cicely (The Lessor of Two Weevils) says

    Eris Caffee, I had that happen to me, a few months back. I think I ended up having to go into each of the blogs and turn ’em off. It was tedious and annoying.

  185. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    rq and others:
    I don’t mean to imply I think the Jedi are squeaky clean, they are a force to maintain a specific status quo. I think they do more good than religious organizations.

  186. Socio-gen, something something... says

    So glad I’m not the only one experiencing the site weirdness!

    Sorry about the headache. Hope it leaves soon! My grandmother used to swear by cutting a small onion in half and placing each half over an eye.

    My theory is that the onion vapor hurts your eyes and nose so much that you’re grateful for the headache.

    I’m avoiding reading any more of it than I have already (which was one post by Stephanie Zvan).

    Watch for the animation too! (Seriously, it’s as beautiful as BC’s voice.)

  187. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    I have that problem too. I clicked the email notification for Pharyngula and Dispatches, but I noticed that every FtB blog I go to shows the same box checked. Sometimes I even get email updates too.
    I subscribe to The Lounge and want to get updates on my phone, but even when I click the second box, I don’t always get updates. It’s erratic.

  188. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    That tea sounds lovely, thanks! I may have to hunt some down in meatspace to try it. Very soothing sounding.

    Thanks for they sympathy. Your grandma’s remedy makes me laugh. I’ve heard a theory that the nervous system can only process so many sensations at once, which is why sex is supposed to be helpful for migraine sufferers. *cough*

    I’m feeling marginally better for a moment, which is good, because I have cousin plans tonight. I’m going to start on knitting my fourth hat this week. Finally now that Christmas is over I’ll make one for myself.

  189. rq says

    Of course I will! ;) I watch science for the science imagery, and have been known to sit through some terrible narration just for the science. But if Benedict Cumberbatch ever narrates a creationist video, I’d probably watch that, too.

    Pfft. You just saved yourself.
    (I do agree they do more good than religious organizations, but I think a factor in that is the fact that they’re a mostly extinct cult and they need to get their good name back – I don’t believe they were nearly exterminated as quickly as the three new movies would have us believe; I think they were already in steady decline before the Senator Emperor got his hands on some real political power. Because it was too easy to leave Luke as the last Jedi, as Obi-Wan and To(a)daYoda would have us believe. Also, at any one time, there are only two evil Sith Lords? I don’t believe that. That is a complete unbalance in the Force, unless the Dark Side really is that much more powerful than the Light Side…)

  190. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Once, when I was being processed in the ER, they asked my religion. I told them Jediism. Jedism? Whatever.

  191. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Nothing odd about you liking strong female characters. I long ago realized thst I liked strong female characters in movies, tv or in comic books. In fact, I ptetty much gravitate towards female characters: Buffy, Faith, Willow on BtVS; Sidney Bristow on Alias;Claire on Heroes; Ripley in the Alien movies.

  192. rq says

    I know. That was a poor attempt at bad humour, above. :) Of course there’s nothing wrong.

    Some insist it’s an acquired taste – but if you like anise or fennel root (you can buy it as a vegetable gere, don’t know about there), or licorice, you’ll probably like fennel tea, too. It’s a very mild licorice taste, though, which is what I like about it. (I’ve always been partial to black jelly-beans – nobody else ever liked them, and I don’t like that some varieties now have some strange fruit flavour instead of the original licorice.)

  193. Socio-gen, something something... says

    I’ve never heard that one. When I get a migraine, I just curl up in the fetal position under the covers in a darkened room and make pitiful moaning noises. Often while battling nausea. So not the right time for sexytimes.

    Let’s hope he never uses his powers for evil because…yeah, I’d watch him narrate a creationist video or talk about numerology and Anti-christs in pop music videos. :)

  194. says

    Sex is often good for tension headaches, not migraines. However, many people (especially people who have the former but not the latter) fail to understand the distinction between them, and refer to all severe headaches as migraines.

  195. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Doctors have always told me mine are migraines. Friends of mine with diagnosed migraines have also reported the effectiveness of migraines. *shrug* (Anecdotal evidence, aren’t you convinced now?) Doctors never do a lot of investigation, though, so I don’t know what’s that’s worth. I have battled through the pain for the reward of actually eventually enjoying myself during migraine-time, as weird as that sounds

    Chalk up another “pro” for “regular job”…health insurance with which I could potentially see a doctor and get a new prescription for migraine meds. (The only thing that has ever worked with consistency, and trust me, I’ve tried everything).

  196. rq says

    I’m with Socio-gen on this one… Sex while migraining? No thanks. :P Ugh. Usually feeling puky and please, no external stimuli, while migraining.
    I’ve heard that taking a 10-second, freezing cold shower every morning can prevent migraines – funny, though, because extreme hot-cold contrasts is one of my migraine triggers (or just insufficient body heat – but I can get that back by extreme snuggling, not the actual active-sex part…).


    I have never seen the Alien movies. At least, not in their entirety, and certainly not all of them. I’m not sure why.

  197. rq says

    I get both, but yes, there is a distinction that people seem to miss. I know I have a migraine when nothing works to stave off the in-coming pain – there’s usually a fair amount of advance warning (strange peripheral glitter, too much contrast even in low light, increased sound sensitivity, a halt in the digestive processes usually involving vomit, although this can also come later, with the pain). Tension headaches usually pass with wool scarf + wool hat + lie-down + leaving the computer, and some time. And paracetamol, that works on those. Usually by the time sexy-time rolls around, the headache is manageable enough for the fun. And, of course, by the end, it’s all gone and cured.
    Not migraines, though. Any stimulus (smells, tastes, etc.) with migraines is just… *shudder*

    And yes, I did get an official migraine diagnosis after a rather quick consultation with the university doctor in the walk-in clinic.

  198. rq says

    Also, Socio-gen, if Benedict Cumberbatch ever does go over to the Dark Side, I might just have to follow him his voice. Kind of like the Pied Piper of Hamelin, but better. And knowingly.

  199. says


    The Alien films are all so very different movies, it is weird watching them one right after another. The first one is a slow-build “haunted house in space” movie almost in the realm of “Amityville Horror” in that both are in no small part economic horror films. The second is rip-roaring monster action with a horror element, in the same realm as the first two “Terminator” movies. The third is a gorgeous failure, a serious horror film hampered by budget and studio interference… David Fincher’s first feature film if I recall correctly, and he wound up walking away in disgust. The fourth is kind of a weird trainwreck of a movie, but actually not terrible if not actively compared to the other films; it feels like a really cool TV movie with a nice big budget.

  200. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Yeah, if I’m nauseous sexytimes are not appealing. Luckily, that doesn’t happen as often as it used to with my migraines. But if we can make the room dark, then I can usually play through the pain, ha. More often, SO just keeps me supplied with fresh ice packs and saltines and tea.

  201. says


    strange peripheral glitter, too much contrast even in low light, increased sound sensitivity,

    And these right here are the distinguishin marks of the true migraine. Common a variants include visual halos, extreme light sensitivity, auditory hallucinations, and in some cases partial paralysis. Tension headaches produce none of these, although sometimes they will be accompanied by nausea, caused by some combination of simple pain and muscle tension pulling the stomach around.

  202. rq says

    Nah, I’m usually in the dark corner by the closet, moaning under 5 blankets or under no blankets, cursing the children who are already as quiet as little mice for making too much noise, and telling Husband to turn the darkness off and to stop shaking the floors so much. It’s an intense experience, and I can laugh about it while not experiencing it, but when I’m in the middle of it, I honestly believe I’m going to die.
    Waking up in the morning, completely pain-free (usually) is such a lovely surprise, which usually induces a strange elation, a post-migraine hangover, if you will, where everything seems lighter and easier and brighter than usual.
    It’s genetic in the family, though – my sister gets migraines (with one-eye blindness as advance warning, woo-hoo driving!), and my dad gets/got them, and his mother did, too. The only time I know I won’t have any is while pregnant (apparently something to do with blood pressure).

    Yup, listing those things was what made the doctor come right out and say, Yes, you have migraines. Apparently she’d often have people come in saying they had migraines, but in the end having the wrong self-diagnosis.

  203. Socio-gen, something something... says

    Ahh…that makes sense. I can usually get rid of a tension headache by getting a neck and shoulder massage from the FWB or using the chair massager, so redirecting the tension elsewhere should do the trick.

    I shall have to conduct some experiments during the next one. Yay science!

    I’ve found some relief by putting ice-packs on my neck and forehead during the migraine. Supposedly it constricts the blood vessels or something. I figure it just numbs the nearest parts of my brain.

    And yes, I’d follow that voice wherever it led.

    Yeah, my migraines are easily identified because my vision starts getting glittery at the edges like bright sunlight reflecting on waves. As the glitter starts to fill my field of vision, my sense of smell goes offline (I’ll start smelling chlorine, as if I’m in a heated pool). If I can get into the dark with my ice-packs before the weird smell starts, I can break the migraine with a couple hours of sleep. Otherwise, it’s going to be hours (or days, on a few rare occasions).

  204. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Mine usually start with pain in the back of my head, on one side or the other, with lots of muscle pain As it gets worse, the light and sound sensitivity kick in, and I start to feel like there’s a knitting needle stabbing into my temple and on one side of the back of my head. They are always right side or left side. It’s really unpredictable whether they will last a few hours or a few days. Sometimes sleeping helps, sometimes it makes it worse. Sometimes hydrating helps, sometimes it’s neutral. Sometimes Excedrin helps. Usually not. I do use the icepacks for temporary relief at the very least. Falling asleep on an ice pack under my neck can be good (I know, you’re supposed to take them off after 20 minutes).

    Lately, I have found that sleeping face down can help, propping my chest up with my folded arms and my forehead up with a pillow, so I can breathe.

  205. Socio-gen, something something... says

    *hugs* Joe. Sorry again about misreading your comment in the Problem-solving thread! I think I’ve gotten too sensitized by all the “you don’t have it as bad as women in Saudi Arabia so why are you whining about sexism here” that I’m seeing that kind of thing everywhere, even where it doesn’t exist.

  206. rq says

    *hugs* Joe!

    Portia, Socio-gen
    I’ll haev to try the ice-packs next time warning signs appear. I usually steer away from the cold because it’s been a trigger in the past, but maybe… maybe… I mean, it can’t make it any worse, can it? Since the whole heating thing doesn’t seem to work…

  207. Ing Blarg says

    Yeah so tried to comment again. Either something is broke or my old account is banned or put into instant mod on FTB. So…bye I guess

  208. Ing Blarg says

    I attempted to comment on the MRA child support thread and Ed’s blog and all comments seem to be eateded from old user. sent PZ e-mail asking if it’s a glitch or if I’m banned and won’t say anymore until I find out so it’s clear I’m not trying to morph or anything.

  209. Gnumann+, something borrowed, something gnu... says

    I attempted to comment on the MRA child support thread and Ed’s blog and all comments seem to be eateded from old user. sent PZ e-mail asking if it’s a glitch or if I’m banned and won’t say anymore until I find out so it’s clear I’m not trying to morph or anything.

    AFAIK – banhammer is blog-specific, so both troubles here and at Ed’s point to technical issue. So does your name not being on the dungeon page.

  210. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    My 91 year old grandfather is in the next room bemoaning the state of the nation to my cousin. He says he is “concerned” and “feels sorry” for the people of the younger generation because “it’ll never be better than it is now” …this is the Fox News watching, Rush Limbaugh loving, asshat I call my grandfather. The one who told me Obama isn’t a good Christian, he’s a Muslim. Puke.

  211. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Testing. PZ addressed the issue. Apparently some others are having it as well and it might be linked to the layout change

  212. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    well now I feel silly doing all that to get back the privilege to bang my head against a wall of stupid. That that it wasn’t appreciated

  213. says

    RE: migraines

    Mine start with nausea and a “snow” effect (rather like a poorly-tuned antennaed television). Then my right eye goes a bit weird, like I can feel the lack of vision.

    I usually end up popping the migraine pills and some benadryl, smoke a bowl (if available), and take a nap. I’m woozy-but-functional upon waking.

  214. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    I’m on day shift this week. What is this odd bright star that seems to be bleaching out the sky?

  215. cicely (The Lessor of Two Weevils) says

    Tony: Nothing to tell—I have two lice, and I lease them out. Reasonable rates. It’s the coming thing in the World of Business—I would go so far as to say, it’s a whole new paradigm! Get in on the ground floor!
    Actually, it was a sideways jump from “the lesser of two evils”; it just suddenly occurred to me last night, and I was amused. (See previously-used epithet.) It so desperately wants to be the punchline of one of those bad pun jokes, along the lines of “If the foo shits, wear it”.

  216. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Beatrice @743:
    so now I’m curious..I’m very happy you found this place too, but now I wonder how did you find this place?
    For that matter the question is open to everyone. How did you discover the lounge or T ET ?

  217. cicely (The Lessor of Two Weevils) says

    I found Pharyngula back in Crackergate days…or possibly in connection with Ben Stein’s Epic Movie…which ever came first.

  218. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    So if I’m back for time being…

    *Partner has passed drivers exam
    *Grandmother still in danger of losing house to Rapist Grandfather Jerk
    *Decided to cut strained relationship with father to no relationship or distant one
    *Doctor Who X-mas Special: Thoughts? Mine were that I’m disappointed Ozy is companion over Strax and Co. She was the weak link of the episode which was a shame cause I feel bad for the actor as she’s doing well, it’s just that the character feels like so much of what we’ve already gotten before. She was totally over shadowed by Victorian Lizard Detectives and Potato Coachmen

  219. cicely (The Lessor of Two Weevils) says

    *Partner has passed drivers exam


    *Grandmother still in danger of losing house to Rapist Grandfather Jerk


    *Decided to cut strained relationship with father to no relationship or distant one


    *Doctor Who X-mas Special: Thoughts?

    Recorded, but not yet watched.

  220. shala says

    *Grandmother still in danger of losing house to Rapist Grandfather Jerk

    That sounds like an awful situation. Yeah, I know, it’s not much for me to say. My best wishes go out to your grandmother, and hopefully the grandfather stops and realizes how much of a jerk he’s being (given what I’ve read so far of him though…). :/

  221. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says


    Grandmother is going to offer a few thousand in a settlement to make him go away. He still owes *counts on fingers* all the child support but not like a court will do shit about that! Best hope is that he dies suddenly (given his reported health not a remote possibility) removing the problem.

  222. Nutmeg says

    Headaches: I get frequent tension headaches, 2-3x per week. They started happening occasionally at puberty and have become more common over time. For some reason, my body thinks that being even an hour short of sleep is an excellent reason to have an afternoon headache. Since I’m a grad student and I don’t remember the last time I had a regular sleep cycle, this is a problem. Fortunately 400mg ibuprofen almost always fixes the headaches. But I’m not thrilled with this level of ibuprofen consumption. I should probably look into some kind of long-term preventative, if such a thing exists for tension headaches.

    When I’m not taking good care of myself, I get weird other headaches. Bilateral with no aura, but with light and motion sensitivity and mild nausea, and sometimes sinus pain. I got them checked out in high school, and the pediatrician said they “may or may not be migraines”. Helpful, eh? But he gave me a list of common migraine triggers, which has been useful even though those headaches might not be migraines. If I don’t get too far behind on my sleep and I minimize my consumption of caffeine, nuts, and sulfites, I only get tension headaches.

  223. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    So what thread is seeing the action at Pharyngula tonight?
    For a change, I’ve been following Ed’s feminist thread most of today, which is complete with its own antiFeminist nitwit.

  224. says

    Welcome back, here’s hoping a swift yet unpleasant death befalls your grandfather soon. The other news from your end is good, though.

    Looks like the MRA thread is hopping.
    I found the TET awhile after I found Pharyngula (don’t recall how, or indeed when, that was). I dropped in periodically, was confused, and then read the articles some more. Eventually, I realized what was going on, and someone said something about a topic that interested me, so I chimed in,

    I don’t know what the hell that pediatrician was thinking. Granted, I’m not a doctor, but identifying migraines was one that was focused on pretty heavily in massage school (massage can help tension headaches, but not migraines. It is therefore very useful to know the difference), and I don’t know of anything else that has those symptoms.