Ho hum. Another purportedly rational forum that thinks rape is a joke.
Would it be immoral to rape a Skepchick?
Post by Pappa » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:46 am
Not for sexual gratification or power or anything like that, just because they’re so annoying.
I’m really torn on this one. :dunno:
You know what’s really funny? The guy posting that crap apparently has some admin role there, and every one of his posts has this little postscript:
For information on ways to help support Rationalia financially, see our funding page.
Because professional fundraisers everywhere like to encourage people to contribute by joking about how they want to rape someone.
oh fun. let’s throw ableism onto the pile of harmful shit. because why not. [/sarc]
and it’s pretty obvious that we understand humor a lot better than Pappa does, at least in terms of the cultural work it performs.
anyway, yeah. so much for “he’s such a nice guy, I’m sure he’ll realize his error and take it all back”
Aaand the tiny little spark of hope that maybe, just maybe, Pappa would rummage in the lint-filled pockets of his soul and emerge with a fragment of humanity gets a few gallons of cold water poured upon it.
Ah, well. At least you all have given him and his merry band of dumbfucks a well-deserved and thorough drubbing. This is why I will take the Pharyngula commetariat over any group of commenters anywhere (aside from my own, of course, but then there’s this giant overlap): you lot do not put up with this shit. You restore my flagging hope in humanity.
Thank you for that. All my love to all of you!
@ hotshoe
I tried to get commenting rights while they were up and running. No luck, so I’ll post here for what it is worth:
……………………………
@
You don’t know? In the meantime, substitute “a person, like you or me.” (Try that in the OP. Is that funny?)
@
Like “Pappa”, you are not funny. And you are going off topic. This is not all about how courageous you are for standing up for your right to be as ass.
So-called “jokes” about rape are simply not funny to people who have had to deal with such matters personally. They are hurtful. They should not be funny to anyone who claims to care for other people.
@
Why not call out nasty, pointless and hurtful comments made in the OP? Freedom of speech? Hardly, if one is remaining silent. Why support internet bullies?
@
FIFY:
… the Pharygula folk care deeply about the feelings of everyone who doesn’t like rape jokes
except for the other posters here.……………………………..
I see that Stephanie Zahn has a similar idea to my first comment.
………………………………
I see in their own regulations:
My emphasis. From registration agreement on rationalia.
Jadehawk, pretty obviously, an ego has been pricked, thus the contumacy and indignant bluster.
(This is a so-called “nice guy”)
—
Recap:
Hyperbole is an exaggeration of something, and that rather unpleasant something is (for sure) there.
Oops, one more thing.
One of the decent replies to Pappa was from Robert_S, then he seemed a little disappointed that he didn’t see his words at pharyngula. (Well, of course not! No one is going to copy 300 comment of a mostly-shit thread from there to here).
But it’s true, Robert_S is one of the decent commenters, and this is what he said:
I’d be happy to see Robert_S show up here, based on what I”ve seen so far.
If he does, please give him the full benefit of the three-post rule, or maybe a dozen-post rule.
@Jadehawk
The moment they started in with the “b-bu-but he’s so nice!, I figured we’d soon see evidence to the contrary. Hoped I was wrong, but when a band of people who condone and defend rape jokes assure us of the niceness of someone, that’s a sure sign we’re dealing with people whose ability to assess the quality of other people is, shall we say, suspect.
And no one here fell for it. Let that be a cautionary tale for the next band of dumbfucks who drop in attempting to tell us that someone who did something abhorrent is really nice: no one here is that bloody stupid.
Wow. This guy is impressive. How to respond?
Double dumbass on you!
As long as we’re all into reasoned discourse.
A guy who thinks he’s funny should not resort to “retarded” twice in the same sentence. Or at all, really.
Let’s just review here:
Sorry. I guess I just don’t get the joke. It’s funny because…rape?
Hack.
hotshoe quotes from the site in question (not that I can check, they’re too cowardly to go public):
What’s the supposed joke? I don’t see one.
[meta]
No. I’ll comment to anyone as I would to anyone.
(Your appeal has been noted and given the weight it deserves)
Can you even call something like this a joke when the intention was to make people feel badly?
I don’t doubt it was insincere as far as threats of rape go but it certainly isn’t helpful with regards to the issue of rape culture. Furthermore, the intention of the remark was clearly to make the Skepchicks feel badly by encouraging others to chuckle over the idea of their suffering. That’s bullying, not the lulz. It’s only lulzy to those who want the targets of these jokes to shut up or be hurt.
Erista: AWESOME comment. Hugs if you want them.
marinerachel,
Quoting you because this is so bleedingly obvious and because your sarcastic understatement should not go un-noted.
—
Best as I can make it, this putative joke relies on rape being some sort of merited response to people under certain circumstances, the which boil down to how much they annoy someone.
(That this Pappa specimen is apparently respected over there tells me much about the place)
Explaining a joke always kills it, but it is possible.
How telling that no defenders of this so-called “joke” can explain where exactly the humor springs from.
If they did they’d have to admit it’s just sadism.
@ Jadehawk and Caine
Something just snapped. I felt it go when the original quote about sweetness and fluff came up. You two have come really close to nailing it as far as I am concerned, but what is absolutely making me grind my molars to dust is this constant onslaught from “the chill girls” and “the real menz” who tell so many women how to behave. They say, “You are too [practically any character trait whatsoever] and you ought to [agree with me and admit I’m super awesome].”
I have had it. I have totally had it. Because I have a vagina and don’t agree with you, then I AM PERSONALLY DEFECTIVE. That is sort of a ground-level-background-radiation species of harassment I just despise. They don’t say,”The idea is wrong, your data is dated, your logic is at fault.” Nope. YOU are not acceptable and YOU have to do as I think correct. Otherwise YOU are annoying, and we all have just been told where that ends up.
Because the laws of the land strongly prohibit what I want to do to people who spew this crap, I will try to cool down now.
Instinct guides me:
<snicker>
It’s the misrepresentation that’s really pissing me off in this case.
“ZOMG, they all think Pappa is going to come rape them in the night!” No, I (we?) do not. I have not seen such a sentiment expressed. I see a “joke” that is a problem in and of it’s self. If you only see it as problematic if the speaker is going to act on their words, you are blind. The fact “Pappa’s not ACTUALLY being rapey” is being used to dismiss the concerns of people such as myself is making me angry. It completely misses the actual issue – utilising rape “humour” because someone annoys you and won’t stop talking (HOW DARE WOMEN BE DISAGREEABLE!) can be emotionally devestating to individuals and perpetuates dangerous cultural trends. It’s not OK!
Those words used as weapons are harmful. It doesn’t matter whether a sincere rape threat was uttered as that is not what Pappa is being taken to task for. “Pappa isn’t a rapist” does not refute the issue people are pushing back over. It just demonstrates a lack of understanding or intentional ignorrance.
Listen to me, shreiking like a harridan! I’m completely out of control, with my disagreement and words! I best shut up before someone finds me annoying and thinks it appropriate to joke amongst friends about whether it’s OK to rape me or not.
[meta]
marinerachel, relax.
This. Is. Pharyngula!
—
(Don’t shut up, please)
Pappa:
Seriously, since you think talking about raping someone is okay, after all, it’s just irony, hyperbole and irreverent humour, then it’s perfectly okay to start indulging in the irony, hyperbole and irreverent humour about your wife being raped, right? I mean, hey, you’re an ignorant, annoying douchecake, so, hey, anyone is fair game, including your wife. It’s just a joke, dude.
In the remote possibility that might have sunk in a tad, the larger problem surrounding you actually talking about raping another human being* is that you are shoring up rape culture. You are enabling it and encouraging it.
*I would have hoped you were a decent enough person to realize that was bad enough, but no.
@ John Morales
Actually there were several commenters there that were critical of the OP ¹. They seemed a lot more careful about giving offense than the , of which there are many.
Calling people out on their is the real crime over there. More is the pity … it is not that a lot of them don’t get it. They just hold this type of (here misogynist) “free expression” above their otherwise humanist inclinations.
¹ Now that they have shut down, I cannot even prove there is some good in there (if well hidden.) Own goal. Oy Vey!
John:
Shut up, John. Do not tell marinerachel or any other woman to relax. I don’t give a shit about your intent, either. It’s not magic.
You fucking hypocrite. From your twitter:
“pzmyers: Heading off to Dark Knight. Cover me, boys, I’m going in!”
So, you making a sick joke out of a very tragedy in which 12 people including a 6 year old child was shot and killed in cold blood, thats perfectly acceptable. Other people making a sick joke about rape, oh no thats not ok. They’re supposed to be rationalists!
I think it was a facetious, sarcastic “relax”, fully aware of how fucking dismissive and condescending it is to tell women who become upset for very legitimate reasons that they need to chill.
amiright?
theophontes,
You dispute that the Pappa specimen is apparently respected there on this basis, then? :)
Probably, but keep in mind that Caine, being a survivor, is on a bit of a hair trigger. We all are, after the months and months of exactly this sort of abuse being aimed at us. I also believe that John meant no ill by it, but it’s still useful advice.
marinerachel:
Possibly, but John sometimes missteps here and there. At any rate, regardless of intent, I’m in no mood for any take on the “relax!/calm down!/lighten up!” slant.
Caine,
Sorry.
People will have their back here when they speak out, is what I meant — if they can vent anywhere, here is that place.
you do that, honeycakes. and while you’re at it, sue every single one of us too. I hear the slimepit has a lawyer who had the same idea, I’m sure she’ll help you out.
Thank you, John.
marinerachel, you read me aright, and it was my way to welcome here and try to reassure you.
(Caine has damn good reason to be twitchy, and I don’t mind being called out)
I’m still in an unhealthy space as I just gave up trying to reason with atheism’s merry band of misogynists. I’ve been trying for a year now. I must have really believed that if I were to behave in a super duper understanding, laid-back fashion, the turdlets who were spewing disproportionate often unwarranted vitriol at teh uppity wimminz and “pussy begging manginas” would come be invlined to hear and take to heart what I had to say.
You know what? It didn’t work.
B
I’m in an unhealthy space as I just gave up trying to reason with atheism’s merry band of misogynists. I’ve been trying for a year. I must have really believed that if I were to behave in a super duper understanding, laid-back fashion, the turdlets, who were spewing disproportionate, often unwarranted vitriol at teh uppity wimminz and “pussy begging manginas”, would be inclined to hear and take to heart what I had to say.
You know what? It didn’t work.
@
On the subject of hypocrisy:
Pappa’s own rules. (Link here.)
Don’t troll reasonabel, if you want to pick bones here, bring your evidence and arguments.
@ John Morales
I think it is fair to say that many commenters took offence to the post. Yes, he did cross a line for several people. It is good that they noticed, sad that they did not call it out more vehemently. According to Pappa’s own rules, he should be censured for his nasty attempt at a “joke”. (Do they banhammer people there?)
Goddamnit, I’m really not dumb. I just lack the technical skills required to post here without looking like a derpynoob. Please don’t use my incompetance as an excuse to invalidate my thoughts and feelings. *cries*
My understand of Rationalia is their epitome of punishment is a time-out. Perhaps why Seth likes it there so well…
Why is okay for PZ to make light of a very real and recent situation in which lots of innocent people actually fucking died but its not ok for other people to make light of a hypothetical situation they put themselves in?
The evidence is in PZMyers Twitter Timeline, but i’ve screen capped it in case it disappears. The only rationale I can see here is “do as I say, not as I do”. Massive hypocrisy.
Theophontes:
You seem to have missed the “another member” part. Those rules aren’t intended to apply outside the members of that forum and while a decent human being would still consider talking about raping a person to cause widespread offense, it seems, given Pappa’s stance, he’s not a decent human being. He also seemed to be fairly certain it wouldn’t cause widespread offense.
theophontes:
Q: “You dispute that the Pappa specimen is apparently respected there on this basis, then?”
A:
Fine, say that, if you care to — noting that ‘many’ was not a majority (or so I gather, since the thread is now firewalled).
On to the subject at hand: care to answer the question I asked?
marinerachel:
So…they treat each other like toddlers? That explains a lot.
[OT + meta]
Specimen using the nym “reasonabel”:
Leaving aside that even had your claim any merit whatsoever, it would still represent a tu quoque, you entirely misrepresent PZ’s post on the issue, to your shame had you any capacity for such.
Stupid reasoning.
I think the way the “joke” is supposed to work is as a social norm enforcer. Like jokes about how we want an anvil to fall out of the sky on those jerks with the cellphone at the theatre, and those assholes who parked in the disabled zone, and on all libertarians. Or for a god to smite them, or they be exiled to Somalia. It can be funny, if told well, because the supposed punishment is so silly, implausible and disproportionate, and also because we collectively agree that the perpetrator does,in fact, deserve punishment. That’s how it can be (as claimed) hyperbole.
So for it to work as a joke, we need to presume that everyone in the community agrees that:
1) Amy, Rebecca, Heina, Maria, Bug_girl and all the others are “annoying” and therefore deserve punishment (WRONG!)
2) rape is a totally unbelievable punishment that basically doesn’t ever happen to anyone in reality (WRONG, WRONG, WRONGITY WRONG MEGAWRONG!)
Or, in other words, it’s not the format that sucks, it’s the content.
@ Jadehawk
Wahahaha, you mean ? He is forever trotting out his tired legal terminology whenever someone critisises him. Always the same empty threats.
In my opinion he is a buffoon.
I was actually thinking of bluharmony (who said something about being a lawyer or having a law degree, don’t remember which), but I wouldn’t be surprised if there were several instances of that particular silliness
Should we start a fund to buy these idiots dictionaries?
@John Morales
Oh, where have I said “you’re a hypocrite and therefore wrong about the other people”. I’ve just called him a hypocrite, simple as that.
Oh, shit. Did that collection go bad again? I tell you, I’m sending one mean note to my formaldehyde supplier. You know what that stuff costs?
Oh shit, reasonlessmoniker, you got PZ.
Or maybe not.
PZ’s was a dark joke with him as the target. Poppa was complaining about how a woman was annoying and deserved, perhaps to be raped. I dunno.
Rape is a hypothetical situation that women place themselves in? Poor choice of words. That rape is hypothetical? That women put themselves in the situation?
Just a bit dismissive.
Also, reasonfuck, PZ is not in the habit of deleting comments. But it must be oh so nice to make the charge that your opponent is underhanded.
marinerachel, you don’t need to apologise. e-Hugs if you want them. And welcome: your posts are excellent, and I have much love for all Harpies, Harridans, Hyenas, Harlots and other H-word women.
Specimen using the nym “reasonabel”:
So PZ is not wrong, then.
(Nice admission)
@ Caine
I think that you may be right, sadly. It does not take too many people like Pappa to poison the well. (We saw how ERV became toxic in a hurry. Essentially over a single issue.)
I hope more reasonable minds are currently at work behind the newly closed doors. (The Internet is “widespread”.)
@ John Morales
He does have both supporters and detractors. (You want a black/white solution to a grey area? That he has any support, at all, in this matter is offensive in itself – I shall at least grant you that.)
Well I’ve certainly been dressed down. Not the first time on this blog.
I’d like to apologize for my joke, I thought it was funny,(attempting some irony) but I’ll take yall’s word that it was offensive, and I’ll extend that apology to Skepchicks.
And throw this in.
I’ve been in far-left media for years, and we’ve been having this debate since the early sixties.
Even in the most well-meaning progressive environments, old white males like myself seem to get more traction than people of color, women, and young folks.
I learned a lot about white male privilege in this struggle. I’ve done many atheist programs on KPFT, and when approaching the Houston Atheists for voices I have asked for:
1. young people
2. women
3. people of color
3. white guys
In that descending order, and had some great results. Not because I’m a fucking saint, I’ve just managed to figure it out. You cannot expand a movement without a sense of aggressive inclusion.
Case in point.
Many anti-war and justice activists lament the lack of black folks at their protests. This is a deep misunderstanding of institutional racism. The police will wade through three rows of white protestors to get to the black guy and beat the shit out of him to make their point and establish their authority. Assuming the black guy is the least likely to afford a lawyer.
This is where we live.
The battle you have chosen to fight for the dignity of women is righteous, I applaud and respect your passion.
My wife was on the board of directors of Pacifica Radio Foundation, and the misogynist bullshit she endured was frightening, but didn’t compare to what Rebecca Watson has described, nor the piggish outburst that is the subject of this thread.
In my defense, my wife’s protection might have been due to the fact that she is married to a hot-head product of your correctional system, biker-thug, prone to violence, and has been arrested more times than he remembers, twice since he was fifty, most recently asked a Fox News Reporter at the Astrodome/Katrina scene to give me oral sex. IT WAS NOT A RAPE THREAT, I asked nice. Then got the shit beat out of me by the police as usual.
Not every woman has the advantage of being married to a lunatic.
So there you go.
I hope you accept my apology, but please don’t insist that I’m new to this struggle, or call me out, or tell me to STFU, or chew gum in my elevator. I get more death threats a week than anybody here but PZ.
They fire AK 47 rounds into our radio station.
Seriously: http://acksisofevil.org/audio/inner149.mp3
theophontes:
Or to close the thread to the public, obviously.
(But he’s allegedly a “nice guy”, right?)
Yes, that is bluharmony. MK Gray is just a random wanker with a sense of entitlement, judging from his actions in the last 12 months.
This “Pappa” fellow and the bunch of humor-impaired and poorly adapted troglodytes who did not speak up and tear him a new one over this appalling post over on Rationalia are beyond pathetic.
Hey “reasonabel”, got an axe to grind with PZ ? Why don’t you send him an email, I dont think anyone here cares for the ludicrous interpretations of your surveillance of his Twitter messages.
@John Morales
His point was that the jokes were not actually funny and were pretty inappropriate… so yeah I agree.
reasonabel:
Yeah, but the thing is, you agree with a misperception: the actual quote is: “Another purportedly rational forum that thinks rape is a joke.”
(The clear implication is that the contention entails that rape is not a joke; the corollary is that it was no joke)
I see all the Louis CK apologism (and in a lot of cases Louis CK doesn’t actually support them as much as they think he does) and raise you a Stewart Lee.
@John Morales
Saying “they think rape is a joke” is a different thing entirely from “they think rape can be joked about”. So I think he’s wrong, unless he’s got some evidence of these people committing a clockwork orange style brutality.
Specimen:
1. Such attempted sophistry!
(Noted nonetheless it is that you don’t dispute that rape is no joke)
2. Yeah, but on what basis? Care to attempt to adduce any such?
3. You seriously mean to imply that unless PZ has got some evidence of these people committing a clockwork orange style brutality he must be wrong?
(Upon what claim of PZ’s do you base this ridiculous contention?)
@ John Morales
I take it that was rhetorical.
(Alternatively, that not being the case: The “nice guy” argument in defence of Pappa, by commentors on that blog, seems rather puerile in context of his OP and comments thereafter.)
@John
You have to be trolling.
[meta]
specimen using the nym ‘reasonabel’, I precisely paraphrased you.
(Your evasiveness is futile)
Wow, it’s amazing to me that people are willing to defend this kind of bullshit.
It makes me sick to my stomach for people to think that obnoxiously going out of your way to offend people you disagree with is a valid means of expressing your concerns.
Yes John I believe in the concept of “innocent until proven guilty” over wild accusations that can be made by anyone, even bloggers. Even if those bloggers eventually turn out to be right. You’ve got me there clever-clogs.
[meta]
reasonabel:
You had nothing but intent, I got you to admit it.
(If not I, then another. Pharyngula, this is)
reasonabel outed itself elsewhere as coming here to deliberately troll.
Just saying… so that you don’t expect any honest attempts at discussion.
@John
So now you’ve got a scenario in which PZ is actually accusing these people of committing or planning to commit rape on the skepchicks. I still doubt thats what he meant, but hey its your argument. You’ve got me to admit that if that were the case then PZs claim isn’t necessarily false just because he’s provided no evidence for it.
This is great skepticism here. Its the “you can’t prove god doesn’t exist, therefore he does” argument in case you hadn’t noticed.
atkins,
You badly misrepresent the intent of commenters here by suggesting they want to merely express concern or offend people. We disagree with the notion that rape ever lends itself to joking, and we have noted the reaction of many commenters on the Rationalia forum to be lacking in empathy or agreeing with the notion that the skepchicks should be subjected to rape because some guy feels annoyed by them.
Asshole.
I don’t comment on these threads (not fast enough, if nothing else), but I always read them and they have provided me with an amazing education about privilege and admiration for the strong souls that keep fighting back against misogyny, despite the fact that it seems such an endless tide.
I felt compelled to comment, though, by the searing, eloquence of Erista’s plea (sorry, didn’t note the number – late 400s). That was astonishing and powerful and, I don’t know how to word it – perspective-widening to a huge degree. To the depths, perhaps, of pain that thoughtless, careless words can create. I don’t know – I’ve just read it and I’m still assimilating it and I don’t know how to explain how much it affected me.
But I felt that I had to say thank you, Erista.
Wait! You mean there’s another blog/forum dedicating itself to opposing people at Pharyngula and elsewhere calling out the utter unthinking fuckwittery of poorly constructed rape humour and various apologia?
I literally has a shocked.
Louis
P.S. Khantron, THANK YOU. That Stewart Lee clip hits every nail on the head. Especially the ending.
P.P.S. More important thanks go to people like Erista and Marinerachel (and of course the usual heavy lifters like Ixchel, Josh, Ing, Cipher, and Caine to name but a few) for explaining the reasoning and situation ever so fucking clearly.
Don’t thank me. Thank ShitRedditSays. Though I suspect they’d just send you one further down the chain. But it’s a great clip to bring up to people who seem to think comedians are the ultimate authority on everything.
Specimen adopting ‘reasonabel’ as hir nym:
Heh. I see any semblance of plausibility goes by the wayside when you’re shown for what you are.
(Desperate bullshit is desperate)
Care to try to quote me arguing thus, bullshitter? :)
Nah, I got you to admit you have nothing but malice, and that you have nothing to adduce in support of your bullshit.
It takes no skepticism to know you’re a bullshitter bullshitting, O specimen; you merit not even that much.
Just caught up. People may note my hugely delayed response to some comments.
@ Erista
Thank you for talking about that terrible part of your life. I know it is not really over in the sense that you are “just fine”, but reading what you said says to me strong woman, intrepid, moving ahead. Your ability to speak out is a precious gift to anyone capable of reading it for the truth and the justice. This is a place where so many can.
When survivors refuse to be silenced or refuse to pretend that there is no pain, I believe this helps everyone else to find a tiny fraction of your and their courage, and try to speak up themselves. To push towards a better place. It’s frightening to speak up when you have never experienced anything so devastating yourself. If you remain silent, you are making two mistakes. What you will experience for speaking up is really nothing. Letting loud mouthed dorks add to the pain of survivors is reprehensible and therefore others must speak up.
You really are not alone here in Pharyngula. I’ve only been around a little while, but have found so much from reading as often as I can and trying to speak up.
Thank you, Erista, with all my heart.
Just thinking about that failure over in the other place makes me think about ‘triggering’ experiences from adolescence.
Such as the hot feeling of shame washing through your body when you didn’t know what to do when bullies got stuck into whoever was the selected victim of the month. And if you didn’t feel it then, many feel it a couple of years later when they have a bit of maturity and a bit of distance between themselves and the social hothouse of school. Either way it’s shameful passivity in the face of vileness. (Of course, I may just have spent too much of my life dealing with adolescents.)
The ‘never be a bystander’ rule for bullying works just as well for this rubbish.
Dear Rationalia People and sundry Apologists,
Hi, I’ve likely never met you before, nor frequented your forum. As you can probably guess I’m fairly heavily on the side of “even though this comment was intended as humour, the nature of it and consequences of it are anything but humorous”.
Just to clear a few things up quickly for you: I am not in favour of “dropping people’s documents” as a general principle, I think it’s pretty poor form unless absolutely warranted (campaign of harrassment etc) but other people will draw a different line in the sand, and that’s their call. Personally I condemn the ease of use of “doc dropping” etc, I think it’s a silencing tactic more often than not. I don’t doubt my relative privilege contributes to my relative dislike of this practise, nor do I doubt my relative vulnerability does either. I’m also sure that Pappa and all of you are lovely people really, I’m sure you help old people across the street whether they want to be helped or not, give your mothers flowers and kiss babies in an entirely appropriate manner. Really. Please don’t straw man this.
Given my generally sunny disposition towards you, and indeed all of humanity (I’ve just got back from holiday, I predict this will last until about Wednesday, enjoy it), I hope you will indulge me when I ask you to engage your imaginations and consider this small paraphrase:
[TRIGGER FOR RACISM AND VIOLENCE]
Put yourself in a Southern USA state around 1910-ish, imagine that we had the interwebs back then. I know, I know, it’s a stretch, hence why I asked for imagination.
I realise not all Southern US states are/were populated solely by lynch happy racists, I’m just trying to use a commonly referenced trope and a historical fact (i.e. that lynchings was a practise that particularly targeted African Americans, particularly in the South and particularly during a specific period of history. By no means would I ever claim this to be exclusively the case. It wasn’t).
All I did was substitute four terms for similar racially themed terms in the quote, “lynch” for “rape”, “Black Skeptic” for “Skepchick”, “Masta” for “Pappa” and “prejudicial” for “sexual”.
Two things to clarify:
1) Black Skeptics is a blog here at FtB, I’m using it as an identifiably racial substitute for the identifiably feminist/female blog of Skepchick.
2) I have substituted Pappa’s name for Masta for two reasons, firstly, I don’t want to accidentally attribute views to him that he is unlikely to have, and secondly from a certain angle the name “Pappa” could be seen to have patriarchal overtones just like “Masta” could be seen to have racial overtones, although obviously it ain’t necessarily so. This is a play on words, not a claim about Pappa.
Given all this, do you defenders of Pappa’s rape joke think the above paraphrase is a racist joke? Do you think it is less ambiguously problematic than Pappa’s rape joke? Please give reasons. Would you defend it? After all, in form and function it is an identical “joke”.
Here’s why I ask: I have a dog in the hunt, I’m brown enough, foreign looking enough, to have been called “nigger”, “paki” etc etc etc on occasion throughout my life. Charming isn’t it? Happily, we’ve largely moved on socially regarding racism, and such behaviour is shocking enough to have most people either avoid it utterly, or call it out when it’s observed. If my avatar was my real photo and someone here disagreed with me and referred to me as “too dumb a nigger to lynch” (Rebecca Watson has been referred to as “too ugly to rape”) I think that the enormous majority of people would go batshit in a desire to condemn the racist fucker who posted it. Yourselves very much included.
I find it curious then, to note that comments of this exact form, in a cultural context that is demonstrably anti-woman in many facets (often times violently so), similar prejudice goes not merely uncorrected, but is actively defended.
Not every woman gets acid thrown in her face. Not every woman gets raped. Not every woman is beaten by her spouse. Not every woman is dismissed as stupid due to the simple fact of her femininity. But a fuck of a lot of women are. Not every black person was lynched. But a fuck of a lot of people were. We all (presumably) unreservedly regard racially motivated lynching, the attitudes and politics that tolerated it, permitted it and even encouraged it, as a moral bad. Why the double standard when it comes to similar mistreatments of women? Rape jokes about women are funny but lynching jokes about black people are (presumably) not?
I’m not saying you are fans of rape, of course you’re not. Just as you are also not fans of lynching.
However, there are cultural ideas and institutions that prop up a culture where rape is prevalent, even tolerated.* More than that, there are cultural ideas and institutions that prop up a culture where women are not considered fully human (and thus where, to some extremists, things like throwing acid on them is deemed justified), where femininity is used as an insult (don’t be such a girl), where even the simple request for an unambiguous anti-harassment policy is treated as some prudish request for No Sex Please We’re Feminists or oppression of men by feminists.
Come on folks, think about it. You think no one told a racist joke back in 1910? You think a culture where virulently racist jokes were tolerated didn’t contribute to the treatment of black people as less than fully human in that time and place? Do I have to draw you a fucking diagram?
Louis
* Think that the silencing of rape victims, the blaming of them for their rape (short skirt, drunk etc), the derision with which they are often treated is not effective cultural tolerance of rape? Think again. This crap happens FAR too much.
I can’t reconcile good guy with that kind of dehumanizing joke that presents rape-as-punishment as acceptable.
Other than that, I’ll second Erista’s very well-written comment on the previous page. Because I can’t reiterate the sentiment better than Erista already did, I’ll say this: I’m allowed to be pissed off about my experiences, I’m allowed to be hurt or upset by comments that bring those experiences up in my mind, and I’m allowed to be pissed off at someone trivializing my experiences. Anyone who says, implies, or acts otherwise can expect nothing nicer than withering scorn from me.
Louis,
Thanks for posting that “diagram.” That was exactly the same idea I had and was going to post it on the Rationalia forum. I tried to register but it didn’t get OKed before I went to bed last night. As of this morning I am still unregistered.
Of course, you “drew” it so much better than I could have.
Incidentally, I had a tab open on page 6 of the post under discussion at Rationalia. I can can no longer read any further pages without registration. I can still see all pages up to and including page 6 (presumably they are cached in my browser.) It appears that the powers that be at Rationalia have actually pulled that post as it is no longer visible in their sub-forum.
IMHO, it isn’t.
The joke was in poor taste, and I wish PZ hadn’t made it.
He’s not perfect.
Of course, as has been noted, there are substantial differences – the implied target (himself rather than others), and the fact that that type of shooting is wildly uncommon, while rape is hugely commonplace. Also the fact that I doubt that making jokes about spree shooting substantially increases the incidence, while a pervasive rape culture (such as that spread by rape jokes, right?) has been shown to do so.
So, yeah, not really actually the same thing at all, when you get down to it.
But I bet it felt good to say it, so…
I don’t think they have pulled it, but rather hidden it from anyone who is not registered. So it would seem they are aware that it makes them look bad, but they not decent enough people to remove the thread entirely and offer an apology.
#496: Oh. So comeatmebro was completely wrong on that matter, too: “Pappa” didn’t apologize for joking about raping my friends after all. Somehow, it’s what I expected.
And now they’ve hidden away the whole thread from outsider’s eyes. At least someone has a tiny, feeble sense of shame.
comeatmebro @ 209
I should have been clearer…yes, outing someone’s identity is a bad thing (I’ve had it done to me), but so is rape. In fact, I’d say rape is worse.
Also this: comment by Louis should be required reading…
*hugs* for Erista
—
Looking at the tweet reasonabel mentions, I agree with Anri. It was a bad joke, I don’t think PZ should have made it, but it’s not comparable.
And now reasonabel goes back into the killfile.
I was just about to write exactly what anri said.
In poor taste? Yeah. But I’m much more concerned about “jokes” that contribute to the culture in which women not only get raped and then blamed for their own rape, but also routinely treated in ways like being put in jail for discussing her own rape with a longer sentence than her rapists than I am about jokes that are just a little unsavory.
Anri,
I’ll second you on that. To my mind that comment from PZ on Twitter is a pretty tasteless joke, though no worse than many I’ve told over the years to my eternal shame I confess, and yes, IMO, best left unsaid even though it is of different tenor to rape jokes etc.
I like black humour, but tastes vary, I wouldn’t have made the joke, I’m disappointed PZ did (I rather suspect he’ll get over that), and yeah I think it unintentionally trivialises a recent tragedy.
I think this illustrates a problem the Rationalia folks here represented (as the latest in a long line of apologists for sexism and rape culture) have though: taste and offence.
Speaking purely for myself, I’m not disagreeing with Pappa’s rape joke and its defence because they offend me or because I find they distasteful. I don’t think PZ is (or the majority of people here are) either, whilst some people might find it distasteful or offensive it’s because it is part of a system of ideas that are demonstrably harmful that we are by and large objecting. Sexism and sexist ideas hurt women and men to varying degrees the world over, just like racist ideas do.
Sure the rape joke is possibly tasteless, sure it is also possibly offensive, nowt wrong with that in and of itself, I am often quite deliberately tasteless and offensive, sometimes it’s a good thing (sometimes it ain’t though and boy howdy is that a hard line to walk sometimes!). But it’s so much more than merely potentially tasteless/offensive, and to act as though that is not the case is at best intensely wrong, and at worst deliberately dishonest.
The issue of taste is not the problem here, PZ’s joke doesn’t map in terms of the most important aspect onto Pappa’s rape joke: harm.
I can see how PZ’s joke might be harmful, it could reach the eyes/ears of a relative of one of the victims for example, Twitter is after all a global, public, medium, and in those circumstances I have no doubt it would cause very real hurt and harm. I think that hurt and harm is genuinely different in scale than the hurt and harm potentially caused by rape jokes. Not to the individuals of course, but as a whole, considered over society. We might all be shocked and appalled by the recent events in Aurora but the number of us directly affected by it, immediately affected by it, is likely to be comparatively tiny. That’s not to dismiss the very real and tragic pain those close to such an event must be suffering. I can only imagine the horror.
But it’s not roughly 1 in every 8 people, roughly 1 in every 4 women. As far as I know, I know no one in Aurora. But I know a lot of women. I know/am related to a few women who have been raped, I’ve “online met” a few more here in these threads. I know the majority of the women of my acquaintance have been hurt or harmed in some fashion, even if it is only as trivial as the occasional dismissive remark, by a pervasive cultural sexism that can extend to the tolerance of rape. The potential for harm that these rape jokes have is orders of magnitude greater.
That’s not to excuse PZ’s joke or to defend PZ, as I said I think his joke is potentially harmful and from my perspective, in poor taste, but it’s not in the same ballpark of harm as rape humour. Even though both jokes could offend.
Louis
P.S. I am a joker. I tell MANY jokes that are more than close to the knuckle and offend and appal people, and I’ve been taken out the back for a damned good thrashing more than the once. I’m not always worried about offending people, and I will fight my ground, but hurting people? Nah. THAT I do not want to do ever, as far as is possible. I’m sure I inadvertently do, but I have had to learn the hard way that jokes disguise ugly things on occasion and some topics are best avoided, even ironically, unless one is absolutely certain of one’s audience.
[meta + OT]
Louis:
Read this that you yourself wrote, O youth, and fucking grow up.
(No excuse, this is)
John,
I has made an fuckety up?
Be of greater explicitness if you please. I see many potential flaws.
Louis
I’ve just read through this thread. I have nothing to add, just that it’s reassuring to know that this place exists. I’m only a lurker (with minor lapses), but I’m proud to call Pharyngula home.
Mushy lurkerisms aside, I noticed someone complaining that Jadehawk’s links (provided by SG upthread), led to paywalls. I don’t think the person complaining was doing so in good faith, but nonetheless I tried to find pdfs of the articles. I figured other people might be interested too. So these are the first two articles (there was an existing link for the last and I couldn’t find the third):
The Enjoyment of Sexist Humor, Rape Attitudes, and Relationship Aggression in College Students: https://anonfiles.com/file/ab8daabae72b75f1a0aa5db81131353e
Effects of Exposure to Sexist Humor on Perceptions of Normative Tolerance of Sexism: https://anonfiles.com/file/0fd3009bcb482838688f32f200d6b997
BTW John, I didn’t mean I tell sexist/racist jokes or anything like them. I meant jokes that merely offend or are in poor taste (like the odd dick joke) not jokes that actively or severely harm (for there is nothing on this earth without some potential for harm). Matters of taste are tricky. After all, making jokes about the ideas of religious people can offend them, and I’m not really worried about that too often. It’s about context.
Louis
[meta]
Louis, nah, you’ve not fucked-up and quite possibly are ahead of me.
I too could grow up some.
(Self-justifications make me twitchy, but)
John,
Meh, if none of us ever fucked up then where would our SIWOTI syndrome get their fodder? ;-)
Louis
[meta]
Hooloovoo, your contribution goes not unnoticed.
(And it’s duly appreciated, probably not just by me)
Also, addendum the umpteenth:
My point with the above, because I failed to emphasise it correctly, is that I think “offence” and “taste” can (not are but merely can) be used as red herrings, as distractions and as means of silencing. They are subsets of “civility/politeness”. They can be useful, as in a civil, polite discussion where people are not going out of their way to offend each other can be useful. However, just managing to not to say “willy”, or not to offend someone during a conversation is a low bar. It’s the “negative peace” of dialogue.
Sure, not every discussion has to devolve to vitriol, but that’s not the antithesis of “civil” discussion or the absence of overt offence. Dishonesty in discussion offends me, whoever does it. More than the occasional “fuck” ever could. Not merely because of the lack of regard for any discussant that it shows, that’s the offensive part and really the minor bit, but because it is profoundly harmful, it is inimical to discourse.
Louis
If I may say, Louis, I think your humor focuses mostly on either self-deprecation or punching up or mockery or some combination that actually make your posts enjoyable to read. Maybe Pappa and the rest of his fans can take notes on how to tell a joke from them.
Yes, we get it. You want to be as disgusting and hateful as possible online but never ever have anybody in meatspace now what a shitty little hater you actally are.
Here’s the thing: If what you’Re doing is hateful and dumb online it is so offline, and if the only thing that keeps you from saying them offline is that you’d get the appropriate reaction like your girlfriend leaving you, it makes you a dishonest, cowardly shitty little hater.
Yeah, that’s because they never annoyed him enough so he’d contemplate raping them to shut them up. Seriously, the “nice person” defense? We heard that too often about actual rapists. No, somebody actively and happily perpetuating rape culture is NOT a nice person.
That term doesn’t mean what you think it means
Fucking bullshit.
Lots of people here know each other personally, too, and they call each other out on shit all the time. Actually, people who consider themselves “friends” would be the first to call such a thing out, because they wouldn’t want their friend to look like an utter asshole if they believed that there was something wrong with that behaviour. That they cheer him on only shows that they agree with him.
It would make me lock the bedroom door.
So, has he apologized and retracted the shit or does he still think that his annoyance is much more important than the wellbeing of rape-survivors and the sense of safety of his own fucking wife?
So, it’s completey OK to trigger rape-survivors and make them feel unsafe ’cause, hey, I’m having fun here.
Oh dear, you really know nothing, do you?
Many people don’t “genuinly condone rape”. The problem is that they all have a pretty strange definition what “rape” actually is and find all kinds of excuses as to why it wasn’t really rape and why the victim is to blame. That’s called rape-culture and your dear Pappa is deep into it.
For fucks sake, learn how collective nouns and such work.
The statement “The USA are a military agressive superpower and hold their ability to blow up the earth in high respect” does not say that every single US American thinks so and does not deny that there are many people actively working against that.
The forum you are part of can at the moment be characterized by a high tolerance for rape jokey threats and lack of condemnation thereof, which is pretty clear for anybody who reads the thread. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t a few decent people there who don’t. (which doesn’t mean that you’re included in that list)
Only that your pals over there seem to disagree with you and find it totes OK
Yeah, it’s like saying that if gays can get married, people can get married to their parrots. Seriously stupid. You know, people who have to rely on punching down for their jokes are shitty assholes who are punching down. But somehow they all get terribly upset when somebody calls them out on their bigotry.
PZ wrote:
QFFT
peterhearn
Like, ages before you posted for the first time. Thing is, regulars here know that shit already.
Proper?
You actually said “proper”?
Like you’Re telling women and rape-victims how they’re allowed to respond?
Oh, and yes, it is good, just like public outrage is a good response towards racism.
But tell us, why do you find it so much more important to tell the victims of such behaviour how to react “properly” than telling the perpetrators to stop it?
Caine
No, but that would be because somebody unlawfully used his property and damaged it.
Erista
Didn’t you know that asking for evidence is bullying?
But, but, but FREEDOM OF SPEECH and everytthing!
NOw I’m officially prosecuted because I can’t access some posts on some folks’ network anymore ELEBENTY!!!!
Caine and Erista
I’m so sorry. You know I have girls that age and the very thought of somebody breaking and hurting them like that makes me cry.
++++
Translation:
Yeah, I’m going to call you an idiot, but I have to do so weasely because of the rules. I’m clearly demonstrating again that I don’t understand why things are good or bad but only that I will get a slap on the wrist if if I’m caught with my hand in the cookie jar.
Translation: You and me, you and me, just like you, PZ Myers of Pharyngula were almost in my ballpark.
Translates:
Damn rule about cookie-jar again. Decorated with a bit of ableism.
So, no apology?
Oooohhh I haz sad.
+++++
reasonabel
Now, let’s see, if we hypothetically agreed that PZ’s tweet were the same as the rape jokey threat, would that make the rape threat right?
If not, what’s your point?
How much time did you spend opposing the rape joke compared to hunting for something bad PZ said?
Louis and Anri
How dare you disagree with PZ?
Uhm, yeah, definetly bad taste I think.
That sounds word for word like the NALT Christians who get so offended at being lumped in with the Fundies.
Yet spend more time complaining about Atheists pointing it out, instead of working on solving the Fundie problem.
Sorta like the Courtiers’ Reply.
Hooloovoo,
Awesome! Thank you!
Try holding your breath for it. It makes you feel like you have some impact and gives you hope and we get to look at the pretty colors
Wow, just got caught up after unlurking last night. I don’t like to condone psychic behaviour but I had some sort of inkling that:
1) the thread would be hidden away from public view
B) Pappa would respond the way he did, fuelling his infernal tunneling machine with defence of his “jokes”.
Just expressing my own flabberghastedness.
@Elisa, your multiple comments leading up to your big important one were how I felt, though being a man (whom hasn’t encountered such horribleness in his own personal life) I can’t even come close to your own experiences. All the while I was hoping that Pappa would see the error of his ways. Please let there be hope…..! Alas.
Just… thanks everyone. My girlfriend has had to put up with alot of her own shit in this vein in the past; I cannot wish such horrors on my worst enemy.
Also @PZ, I winced a bit at the twitter comment, though the only victim in that particular sentance was yourself, still in poor taste. Not on the same level as Mr Smurf over there, but yeah…
I knew that too. Clearly we share the same powers of AMAZING CLAIRVOYANCE!Y
I got up to page 5 saved with screengrabs yesterday evening. Hopefully someone with an account there is still saving the rest for…posterity.
I had hoped for a nice surprise! I guess I’ll settle for our shared amazing clairvoyance. I wouldn’t be too startled if others here also share similar powers.
Hurp. :<
http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2012/07/23/would-it-be-immoral-to-rape-my-friends/#comment-100749
Congards on being the first rape comment for a young girl. You must be very very proud Papa Smurf.
Thank you to everyone who had kind words for me. I really, really, really appreciate all the support, so much so that I’m not quite sure how to put that gratitude into words. So I’ll just say “thank you.”
For anyone from Rationalia, I guess I have something else to say to you.
As I said before, I was sexually abused as a child. Because I had always been abused, I didn’t recognize the abuse for what it was; for me it was simply normal. I knew that it made me feel bad, I knew that I didn’t like it, but I didn’t understand how very wrong that it was.
For this reason, it did not occur to me to report what was going on. I believed that some people would not think my sister and I were not “mature” enough to handle what was going, but I thought we were mature enough. I knew that some of the RESULTS of the abuse (my sister’s and my overly sexualized play, our inability to figure out where normal boundaries were so as to not freak out other kids, etc) were bad and would likely horrify people, but I didn’t understand that it was my abuse that was causing this issues. In short, I didn’t understand that it was my abuse WAS abuse and that it was simply wrong and harmful on its face. So I said nothing and the abuse continued.
This all resulted in a lot of stress for me, stress that I didn’t know was abnormal. This meant that I was constantly having stress induced feelings of illness but not having anything to indicate actual illness (no fever, no runny nose, etc). When I tried to tell people how sick I felt, they brushed me off as “liking to whine, faking it, too sensitive to feeling sick” and so on. This was all a lesson in realizing that some people didn’t care if I was hurting or if they were hurting me. My father got mad if I ever rebuffed him, the other adults got mad if I told them I was ill. The only thing that really mattered to these people was the fact that my inability to cope with the stress was unpleasant and burdensome for them. It wasn’t about the fact that I was having trouble, it was about the fact that they didn’t want to be bothered with my trouble.
However, this lesson has always been hard for me to process, and there’s always been this part of me that wants to believe that if I can just explain it right, people will care about my abuse and how things that relate to my abuse impact me. This part of me wants to believe that I’m important enough for people to give a damn how I’m doing. There are times that this little piece of me is basically starved to death and doesn’t speak to me, but there are times that it emerges and becomes healthy enough to stop cowering in a corner. Recently, this part of me has kind of reemerged, and has been fed both by the commentors at Pharyngula and some of the other blogs at FtB (among other people); I’ve kind of been spoiled and gotten used to people caring, so I’d forgotten on a gut level that it can be really hit or miss as to whether or not people will care.
But the fact remains that a lot of people don’t care, even if I have momentarily forgotten that. I suppose that the commentors on Rationalia who support rape jokes deserve some manner of congratulations for reminding me of this fact.
So, congratulations, rape jokers of Rationalia: you’ve reminded me that some people just want me to shut up and stop whining so that I’m not spoiling their day.
And for the commentors of Pharyngula who have been so great to me and are still reading this far, thank you again. It’s really nice to be able to forget, even for a short time, that some people don’t care, and it’s nice to be reminded that even though some don’t care, others do. It makes me feel less despair, and it gives me hope that it’s possible to surround oneself with people who care.
“Pappa” joked about raping women that he finds annoying. He makes a point of mentioning that the rapes would not be a reflection of sexual gratification (because they’re not fuckable?) or power (because they’re not worthy of being controlled?) but would be a punishment for being annoying. (Although how that’s not power, I don’t know. I think “Pappa” needs to get a dictionary for Christmas, along with a new personality.)
Ergo, “Pappa” is a misogynist who lacks any self-awareness.
This statement is so self-evident, I can’t believe anyone would argue against it.
Woman not girl*
Correction got eate-ed
(trying this comment again so it doesn’t go to spamtrap)
Jadehawk,
She’s probably still friends with Jstcr and some others, but pornlysis ran her off. She hasn’t participated in the pit itself in a long time afaik. Too unpleasant for her.
Erista @102
And that is essentially what needs to be said everytime a privileged jerk claims that “it’s just a joke!”
Maybe it is a joke, but the victims of a horrific crime are the punchline of your joke and if you can’t see the trouble with that, then your parents failed you and the world egregiously.
Snicker
I have an account over there and I just checked in. Jesus Christ. Jesus H. Christ. It actually made me start crying (yeah, weak stupid emotional effeminate faggotry-patheticz!!?/?1) so I left. But not before noticing two things:
1. Someone I used to know and really, really liked, maiforpeace, is blinded by her friendship with Pappa. It’s like a punch in the gut. Why mai?
2. A commenter is now deriding skepchicks for being so pathetic as to feel suicidal by mere words online (like what Pappa wrote).
God I hate people.
She should have been more chill
But it’s not pathetic to feel enraged by them?
You know to suggest raping them because said words are so annoying.
Why do these idiots think the internet is magic?
Yes, because women being raped wasn’t funny enough; it needed to be made EVEN MORE FUNNY by sneering at people who kill themselves out of pain and despair.
Ho ho ho ho ho!
I think this has gotten to the point where words have lost their true meaning, and their impact. I’m not even talking about the word “rape” – we all know that word is used in the most trivial and off-handed ways, or used to hyperbolize an unpleasant experience that isn’t actually, you know, sexually violent in nature.
No, I’m talking about words like “Skepchick”. This word has lost its meaning. It doesn’t mean “people who belong to this group called Skepchicks”. It doesn’t mean people who are passionate about their work and their causes, who devote time and money to those causes. It means The Enemy. The Killers of Fun. The Over-reactors. The Can’t Take a Joke-ers. The Uppity Bitches. The Word and Thought Police. Untrustworthy. Unwanted. Un-valued.
“Rebecca Watson” is the same. Those two words used together don’t mean a person anymore. They mean the same things that “Skepchick” now means, only more focused. Worse.
This is what these kinds of “jokes” do. They remove the meaning from words. They remove the personhood of people. They de-humanize human beings. Skepchicks aren’t real people – they are a collective entity, the opposition, that which must be fought. Horrible things that can be done to people are less horrible when done to them.
Stephanie Zvan’s post re-humanized these people. I hope that Pappa and posters that agreed with him at Rationalia read it, and change their thinking.
I can’t understand this as anything but schadenfreude at her being targeted by a misogynist’s cruelty. How is this not victim-blaming?
What’s more to understand? She still defends that sort of crap and promotes it. No she shouldn’t be targeted
porn-alysis’s degree of misogyny? No, she never has defended that.
How you square this:
with this:
eh you’re right.
I’m pretty sure Ing is mocking the “She should have been more chill” attitude. You know, mocking the whole, “When it happens to you, you should be more chill, when it happens to me, it’s bad” mentality (a mentality that I think is very worthy of mocking).
But maybe I’m misreading, and I don’t know this woman or her situation at all, so I don’t know what level of misogyny she is receiving vs the level of misogyny she supports.
Josh,
Haha because haha someone who haha has haha suffered a terrible trauma haha like a rape haha can sometimes haha (although by no means necessarily or universally so) haha be haha in a haha vulnerable psychological state haha where haha sometimes things that are haha insignificant to haha others cause them to ruminate haha on their trauma haha. It’s not like such haha negative ruminations are a haha well recognised aspect of haha clinical depression, haha various anxiety disorders, or PTS haha D is it now? Haha.
Oh and haha the other day I saw a guy in a haha wheelchair haha. I don’t haha know if he’d broken haha his leg or haha was haha like some haha other type of haha disabled (permanent or temporary) but I haha danced around his chair and him haha making V signs and haha laughing at his state.
Hoho.
Louis
And honestly I’m struggling to see how
is at all relevant.
Assuming it was true that she did defend the kinds of things porn-alysis said,
therefore what?
Missed #116.
Alright, anyway, for the record I am still looking forward to the day when she breaks her side of the bargain so we put her wiki page back up. I dislike her immensely.
But it’s not pathetic to feel enraged by them?
Of course not. Rage is a positive, masculine emotion that leads to good things like shooting up a movie theater full of people rather than a bad, feminine emotion that leads people to cry and politely ask someone to change their t-shirt. (/snark, just in case it’s not obvious.)
@ Erista (aka Eris)
*hugz* I don’t know what to say, other than I am very happy you feel safe and empowered on Pharyngula.
@ Josh
I have tried to get access today but failed. It seems they have become a sealed discourse, a world unto themselves. So much for their vaunted “freedom of expression”.
I don’t know what they are going to do in the long run. Stop all new commentors forever? They will not only get called out on that particular thread.
…………………….
(Just an idea – I realise it is a lot to ask – if anyone with access wants to copypasta the whole thread?)
zarron
You’ve already said you don’t give too much of a fuck about what actual women go through in porn because you like the “abstract concept” enough to defend it. What the fuck do you want anti-porn feminists to say? Our feminism is about actual women in the real world not some utopian dream that maybe could exist one day. Our feminism is about a world where rape porn outnumbers feminist porn 1,000 to 1 (at least). Our feminism is about women being raped & taped, knowing that countless dudes jack off to their rape on the internet, all while other douchebags have polite discussions about how maybe amateur porn is the answer to the problem of degrading misogynistic pornography. Excuse my fucking anger at what those women go through in the name of an abstract concept.
There might be a comparison to be made between discussions of porn and discussions of rape jokes-a lot of people are talking about telling rape jokes as if we live in a society of equals where a joke about one topic is as harmful as any other. They are trying to discuss rape jokes in a world that doesn’t exist. The discussion would look entirely different if women didn’t live in the real world, where rape happens routinely and society in general does not take it seriously.
Looks like we bullied another poor, innocent group of amateur comedians off the internet.
It’s a shame. Now there’s nowhere to go for trite, formulaic, low-hanging fruit jokes about rape. (Except everygoddamnwhere else on the internet.)
Now communism and the terrorists will win.
theophontes (坏蛋) @122
Copypasta’s probably too extreme for a thread that someone said was over 15 pages now. But I repeat my hope that someone with an account is getting screengrabs.
Brownian @124:
Just like the Nazis did!
Oh Brownian, there you are.
I want to ask, can I put your comments from this thread up on the wiki? This means CC BY-SA 3.0 licensing of those two comments, as that’s what Wikia requires.
The “Ghosthunter Gary” thing, I love it.
LOl so another group of nonskeptics, who like to claim the label, outs themselves are multi-level bigots and then hides.
What rationality! What logic!
Bigots are uniformly cowards, aren’t they.
And, AS USUAL, Unreasonbel is completely wrong. PZ making a joke about his potential to be a shooting victim in a psychotic country where this is an actual problem is in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM even vaguely equivolent to rapist-cheerleader Pappa and his corrective rape fantasies.
Gallows humor about potentially being a victim isn’t even slightly the same fucking thing as rape threats couched in “it’s just a joke!”.
It gets worse. From Pappa:
Ha.
Ha.
Ha.
*hugs if you want them, USB chocolate*
Erista, thank you for what you’ve posted today and last night.
Except that the Nazis targeted people with a demonstrable value to society.
I don’t see that with a group of self-important fuckheads whose only distinguishing feature is knowing the Latin names for a few logical fallacies while obliviously committing them themselves.
Ask yourselves this: if the entire skeptical movement disappeared overnight—and I’m only counting self-identified members of the skeptical movement, not the masses of public health specialists who combat anti-vaxxerism, not the doctors who fight against alternative medicine, not the lawyers of the ACLU, not the myriad people who practice skepticism in specific ways in their jobs and lives, every day—would anything of real value to anybody not a member of this egotistical, privileged group be lost?
Or, to put it in a way that that the rectal polyps doing the thinking for certain Australian skeptics can understand, is there any evidence that skeptics qua self-described skeptics are improving the world?
Sounds like pappa should stay hidden in his close knit community of rape cheerleaders. He’s completetely fucking worthless.
Ha! I pretty much reiterated the sentiment in those comments in comment 131(500+), only to see your comment after I posted.
I’m humbled and honoured. Please, feel welcome.
Dudebros cannot understand that rape culture isn’t trivial internet drama, and no we can’t all just be friends after disagreeing about the seriousness of it.
TF thought that he was persecuted over a small disagreement about feminism too.
Their unstated assumptions scream “women aren’t important” and they get mad when other people give a shit. fucking typical.
Bingo. They don’t give a fuck about women, at least not the ones they don’t personally own, and they get angry when other people do care.
I pity his wife. How often does she have to take a back seat to the more important things in his tiny cowardly world?
131 brownian
Yes absolutely. Many people “wake up” from their false beliefs because of skeptics and have better lives as a result. I would say that most of the people I’ve encountered either believed something outrageous or had a family member who did and got into skepticism as a result. Scam artists would prefer that skeptics dissapear off the face of the earth so that they could more easily get to their marks.
While I don’t doubt that’s true, the question is whether or not skeptics as the skeptical community are actually doing anything that isn’t already being done by others. Scientists and the peer-review process of publishing, for instance. The researchers and doctors who practice Evidence-based medicine. These are all skeptical endeavours practised by people who may or may not be skeptical in other aspects of their lives.
Just like ‘skeptics’ are(n’t). (As evidence, I cite every one of the Rationalia defenders who popped in here with decidedly unskeptical apologetics like “PZ does it too” and “But Pappa is a nice guy in real life” and “you’re all killjoys”.)
Sylvia Browne is still around. I’d like to see some evidence that the skeptical community as the skeptical community has reduced the instance of such scam artists.
What I suspect is that the self-labelling of the skeptical movement actually results in less skeptical behaviour by self-described skeptics. They’re right about vaccines and ghosts, therefore how can they be wrong about sexism? And their response isn’t a skeptical “look, I’d be willing to accept your claim if you could provide some evidence”, it’s a non-skeptical “you should be raped, you hysterical bandwagoning feminazis!”
My hypothesis is that it’s a form of moral balancing (AKA “compensatory ethics”). “Skeptical balancing” maybe?
Thus spake Pappa:
Seriously, Pappa, are you not able to understand concepts like what a fucking entitled, misogynist, moronic arsehole you are?
I should be clear that my use of the term ‘hypothesis’ in the above is unscientific. I should be clear that at this point, it’s more of a germ of an idea than a hypothesis.
Poor Pappa. He’s stuck at the “I WAS MAKING A JOKE” part of the argument, and the rest of us have moved on.
Better than you, fuckhead. What, you think you invented ironic -ism?
I fucking hate skeptics, the fucking morons. If you’re a skeptic in IT, STFU and fix my work email already. If you’re a skeptic who’s not, just STFU.
Brownian, thanks! I was already working on a “skepticism” article so I knew where it would go:
http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Skepticism
Hehehe.
We did that to you on purpose. ;)
And I was mostly kidding. I don’t really want my work email back.
(One more try then I give up)
@Josh (129):
Fuck fuck fuck fuck.
Now I’m triggered.
Thanks, Pappa. You’ve just created collateral damage! Triggering a transwoman, bet you weren’t out there trying to do that.
Asshole.
I’ve moved a thought about the scope of skepticism over to TZT, since if it causes much discussion it’d be off-topic for this thread.
What I hear is a primate pounding on his chest.
What I see is a neon sign arching overhead. The letters spell out this cry – I a m a v i c t i m i z e r! I c a n n o t b e t h e v i c t i m i z e e!
I mean that the posturing aggressiveness seems defensive in subconscious intent. (Yeah, yeah, I accept his disclaimer that he’s not literally, physically aggressive. Just, you know, verbally aggressive and threatening in a sort of faux way.)
I suppose you’ve all heard the expression,”You’ve every right to be offended” before. It’s true, you do. You also have every right to rant about it online if that’s what floats your boat, but really many of you need to get some perspective and stop seeing the world in such black and white ways. If any one of you have ever laughed at a sick joke of any kind, then you’re hypocrites. If you really care about rape, stop posting shouty replies on some blog and go out and do something about it in the real world. Responding to blog posts and getting all worked up in the process is about as effective as praying.
I don’t know what’s wrong with the supposed “community” that spans a load of atheist/sceptic/rationalist sites, but you don’t half waste an absurd amount of time arguing amongst yourselves and getting really angry and self-righteous in the process. I like PZ and follow his blog from time to time, but even PZ seems to engage his fingers quite a lot without much rational thought… and I’ve seen Dawkins do the same quite a few times too. That’s pretty lame considering most of these people involved proclaim themselves to be rational minded people.
Before you turn that round to suggest I’m a hypocrite, “Rationalia” has never claimed to be a hub of reason and rationalism, as anyone who’s spent any time there can verify. It’s a hangout for (mostly) atheists/rationalist/sceptics who used to spend their free time in the Off Topic section of RDF, plus a load of fresh blood who just like the relaxed atmosphere.
Oh set phasers to “fun”!
Wait, I need beer and popcorn. Don’t do anything yet. I sense piss taking ahead.
Louis
What you said was loathsome, pappa, especially given the context of endemic misogyny and the horrific way Rebecca, Amy, Elyse, and all the rest have been treated for a year.
Good. Fucking. God. Man. Don’t you have it in you to stop, admit it was wrong and can’t be excused, and just try to do better in the future? Just a little bit?
You just call it…Rationalia. OK. Right. Got it.
And if you really cared about rape, you’d stop trivializing it and making it a gotcha game you play with other sites, like Skepchick.
I can do both and I can absolutely be effective at doing both. Shouting down rape culture on the internet is just one part of activism. If it’s acceptable here it sure as hell is acceptable in the real world. The internet is not an island unto itself. People have views that they share on the internet and they are usually the same as in the real world.
Would you really tell that cashier at the local supermarket you want them to be raped because they’re just -so- annoying when they ring up your purchases? Then why say it online. The internet doesn’t make the person you’re wanting to rape any less real.
Dishonest asshole, please fucking explain why this is an either/or proposition. What makes you think that people who have been condemning your words has done nothing in real life.
Also, while you are here, please explain why you think it is funny to speculate about raping a person. Do not say it was funny of engaging in a sick joke.
Why do you think it is a good idea to say that annoying women should be raped by you.
Also, fuckface, questioning your embrace of rape culture is one small way of stopping rape. Please, keep in mind, I am not calling you a rapist. But what you are saying is this, .
Also, thank you for confirming your status as a .
I feel stupid calling anyone Papa…can we call him something that doesn’t make me feel like I’m talking down to an elderly russian man? How about Pepe?
Quoted for pointing and laughing value.
I have laughed at terrible jokes in the past. I changed. Because I recognized how wrong I was, and how horribly I needed some perspective and some empathy. That doesn’t make me a hypocrite. It makes me a mature person capable of seeing my own mistakes and flawed thinking and changing my views. You know, like a skeptic!
Unlike some. Apparently.
It’s not about offense. It’s about harm. 1 in 5 women in the USA experience sexual assault in their lifetime. Among men it’s 1 in 33.
PTSD is a real thing.
In order to avoid doing harm, avoid triggering PTSD among rape survivors, who are literally all over the damn place.
You’re not obligated by anything except a sense of conscience and moral decency to avoid causing harm to survivors.
But you haven’t got that. You’ve made that clear.
@Pappa:
Your latest post that Josh above posted advocated anal rape as a method of dismissal and a silencing tactic.
I was almost anally raped by my ex-boyfriend. I had to scream at him to stop, and when he did, his response was to make me feel like I was at fault. That I should’ve let him do what he wanted. He made me feel ashamed for wanting to not be hurt by him.
Do you see why we’re upset with you?
Where is the humor in threatenting rape?
What makes you think that a blog — or other online forum — is not part of the real world, or has no impact on the real world?
Your hypocritical false equivalence is noted.
If a stranger make a comment about raping you, or someone you care about, you would stay calm and indifferent?
Are you actually indifferent to reason and rationalism?
One of the things that I do, because I care about rape, is sharing the story of what happened to me and working to create an environment where other survivors can feel supported.
Which, yes, happens online.
Are you always this obtuse, or is this just what it looks like when someone challenges your views and you can’t handle it?
The doofuses are beating their chests — but *in private* dontchaknow, not that they’re *ashamed* or anything, but they can’t have the inner working of the He-Man Wommum-Haterz Club exposed. Following are a couple of samples from the thread
First, a song parody!
Let’s see . . . Skepchicks: “I disagree with you.”
Rationalia: “EEEeeeek! Nazis! The Wimminz will take us away!! EEEee!!”
What a bunch of fucking 1) Liars and 2) Cowards. I have much more respect for straight-up assholes who stand behind their bigotry, than for snivelling whiners who rush into their rooms and slam the door, then call us Nazis and cry that we’ll lock them up.
Ah, the argument from purity, also known as tu quoque.
You’re a fucking hypocrite for using the name Rationalia, you dumb fucking twit.
works for me. Or Fuckface. Or Assclown.
And yeah, just for formality’s sake, I’ll issue another request for an explanation of what’s funny about speculating about whether it would be within the bounds of morality to rape an especially annoying woman.
“If you really care about rape, stop posting shouty replies on some blog and go out and do something about it in the real world. Responding to blog posts and getting all worked up in the process is about as effective as praying. ”
Fuck you.
Just fuck you, you ignorant waste of space. It’s obvious you haven’t read this thread or you would know that not only have many commentators here had personal experience with rape, but quite a few have also done work with rape survivors. Making a difference in the real world is not mutually exclusive with calling sick fucks like you on their bullshit; it is because I have worked with rape survivors that dismissive, sick “jokes” like yours make my blood boil.
Tl;dr: FUCK YOU!
I am not offended, I am contemptous.
As a lurker, I would like to take this post to once again thank all the wonderful people here for having the strength to put themselves out there and share their experiences. I’ve tried arguing with these people but it makes me too angry, so I am quite thankful to everyone here who can rebut them again and again. I mean it. Thank you. You make this a safe space I am glad to visit.
And here is a wonderful specimen, lordpasternak:
TRIGGER WARNING!!! TRIGGER WARNING!!
END TRIGGER WARNING
My my, aren’t we all *courageous* free-speechers, huh?
You are a disgusting piece of shit, Pappa. Fuck you.
Shouty blog posts, and passionate comments in the threads, made me aware of rape-culture and is responsible for me calling out rape-enablers IRL*.
*in addition to on the internet**
**stuff that is said on the internet still has an effect, asshole.
Jesus Christ. You seemed smarter when you stopped at the rape joke.
@pappa #148
I’m trying to parse your meaning in this. Do you mean that you think of yourself as God? As a god? As a powerful, omniscient being?
Or are you saying that you don’t exist?
Vos curtus , proinde vos es.
Either that or I realized how much jokes like that can hurt and have changed.
I am a man. I was raped when I was a cub scout. Do you see how making a joke about punishing someone through anal rape could be more than just a little upsetting? What, you don’t think I’m punishing myself enough, you gotta go there?
Jesus that was weak as shit.
Pappa, #148,
Hi. Brave of you…if it is you. Good work.
I’ll only respond to two bits, in no particular order (you could do me a favour and read my #(5)73 on this page. I’ve even been nice):
1)
You’re right, and I do. Thanks.
Do you need a list of my activities for your approval, duly notarised and with accompanying evidence of course, or is my word on this sufficient?
You’re also wrong. Opinions and ideas change around dinner tables, on blogs, in pubs, at work etc. They change by being rubbed up against different ideas and opinions and more importantly, evidence. There is a tiny, non-zero, positive value to dialogue. Even vitriolic dialogue. You might want to reflect on that.
It’s not the be all and end all, but it’s not zero. In fact it encourages people to get off there arses and act, I know it did for me.
2)
You’re right. And I am a hypocrite in more ways than I can comfortably count. So what? Do my failings excuse yours or vice versa? I’ll tell you one thing about me, when some generous feminist had hammered through my thick skull that my enjoying/retelling certain subsets of sick jokes were part of the problem, I stopped. No one expects you (or I) to be perfect angels of wonderment and loveliness, but you, hopefully, like me are a sceptic. Someone swayed by the evidence, reason and logic, right? This next bit is italicised for importance, please don’t ignore it in the rush.
Imagine this hypothetical scenario: what if the telling of sexist jokes, the telling of rape jokes demonstrably contributed, in a measurable way, to measurable harm to a large number of women? Would you reconsider then?
I’m going to bet that you are not a rape fan of any stripe. I bet you think rape is a disgusting crime. I bet you are smart enough to know that generally what a man can do so can a woman in most fields of life and vice versa (yes yes we all know about the extremes and unique abilities, I’m talking about the big bit, the OVERLAP). I bet you are the decent bloke that some of your defenders have bothered to paint you as. I bet you would be horrified to contribute even a tiny bit to the trauma of a rape.
Have you ever read “Going Postal” by Terry Pratchett? I hope so, it’s very good. There’s a bit where Moist Von Lipwig protests to Mr Pump that he has never even so much as drawn a sword in anger (Moist is an accomplished fraudster), let alone murdered someone. Mr Pump (his parole officer effectively) replies that he has effectively killed X number of people because his actions have lead to suicides, starvations etc etc. He points out that you don’t need to wield the knife to cause damage. You can commit micromuders! We all do. Henry Rollins once funnily said something similar, the person that slows him down on the airport walkway is murdering him just a tiny bit, he’s taking precious seconds of his life away.
These are humorous, and frivolous, illustrations of a more real concept: we don’t exist absent of context.
You and I both have told sick jokes, I’ve told thousands, I’m terrible for it. As a less enlightened and much younger person (~13) I told racist jokes…me…a genuine bona fide Victim™ of Racism. Stupid eh? Hypocritical eh? But here’s the cool thing: I learned. So I stopped. Tah dah!
Let’s watch closely what happens next. You are going to get a variety of replies, some nicer than mine, some nastier, some useful, some not. It’s going to be tough to engage that cacophony of posts at all, let alone carefully and intelligently, there will be too many and too much variety. You have a choice how to respond, try acting as a sceptic. Ask for evidence (I’m not the best person when it comes to sociology etc, not my field, ask Jadehawk or SC or Skeptifem Ixchel or one of the many others who appear to have this great stuff lying around…I really should make a link farm for it one day..), consider that evidence as objectively as you can, and perhaps you’ll come to a different conclusion to the one you currently have.
I know I did.
Louis
pappa:
Depends on what the joke is. There are a lot of sick jokes that don’t involve threatening a specific group with rape.
Logic fail much?
That’s kind of funny, considering your post was all about raping those annoying Skepchicks. It’s kind of funny that you find Skepchicks annoying, really. Is it because they say things like, “Guys, don’t do that?”
You seem to get worked up at least to the point of annoyance by posts on the web.
, don’t do that.
Am I annoying yet?
And no, Pappa. It doesn’t fucking matter if you follow up your horrible statement with a “not literally.” You’re still using it as an effective silencing tactic. You’re using the threat of brutal violence to make someone think otherwise about responding to you in a way that disagrees with you.
Yawn, sexist bullying rape apologists sound all the same. Dumb, dumber, and approaching true dumbness like pappa above. Not one iota of rational thought to be seen. After all, reational thought requires an apology to those offended, actual learning by pappa not to do such idiocy in the future, much less defend it, and changing (or actually enforcing) the policy at the blog policies to prevent a repeat by anybody.
Nope, not seeing an intelligent adn reational response.
The assholes don’t know when to stop, Pappa specifically included. Look at the exchange below:
Pappa replied very quickly:
Seriously, has Pappa suffered a stroke and lost his short-term memory? Remember, Pappa, saying THIS:
Would it be immoral to rape a Skepchick?
Postby Pappa » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:46 am
Not for sexual gratification or power or anything like that, just because they’re so annoying.
I’m really torn on this one.
The suggestion is very clear. P
Also, too, it’s a little-known secret, one we don’t just tell everyone, so I ‘m gonna have to swear you to secrecy, pappa, but:
The internet is part of the real world, fuckwit.
Don’t go telling everyone, OK?
Also, I know someone has mentioned in a different thread (maybe the Jim Jefferies thread at B&W), that laughing at a joke and calling it out for being harmful are not mutually exclusive. A harmful joke, said with the right tone and timing, combined with the effects of crowd-dynamics and expectations, could make someone laugh*, even though that same person objects strenuously to the content of the joke, or even is personally harmed by it.
IOW, you can’t always control your immediate reaction. One might laugh, and then have the content of the joke sink in, and then be horrified. That doesn’t make them a hypocrite.
No. You need to get some perspective. You think we all don’t understand the perspective of privileged misogynists? Of course we do, it’s shoved in our faces every day. But you, on the other hand, need to broaden your perspective beyond that, to understand the perspective of the people your “joke” actively harms.
Oh for fuck’s sake! I specifically said in #149 not to do anything before I got back. I go away, get the beer and popcorn and make a quick post and it’s #171.
#171 isn’t immediately after #149 now is it? WHEN WILL YOU PEOPLE LEARN I AM LORD OF THE INTERNET!!!!?
I am going for a sulk.
{Holds breath}
WHAT DO YOU MEAN THIS THREAD IS NOT ALL ABOUT ME?
Oh there’s gonna be some piss taking the-neet.
{Stretches}
Shamon, motherfuckers, grease me up a sexist, I’mma going in.
Louis
*clears throat delicately*
Might I suggest here?
We’re done here, folks. Shut down the JREF fora, the Rationalia, the Skepchicks, and the FtBs.
Everyone grab some fresh air and do some real work.
Rev BDC, #170,
Word.
Louis
Dang, many offerings to Tpyos today. Reational (rational) is especially bad.
Cipher,
Far be it from me to note that that page has a 404 not found but erm…
..Either way, I am suitably embarrassed, I clearly has an ignorant and a stupid. I shall of course cut my cock off in femishame, and hand in to the Head Feminist Controller of Mangina Cock until She deems me fit to be allowed it back.
Louis
Well, that’s just… just… because I’m bad at linking!
*facepalm*
Maybe I should get off the internet before I somehow manage to divide it by zero or crash it into a tree or something.
(Secretly, I just wanted to link it again. I’m way excited about its existence)
poppa seems pretty fond of the phrase, “As you seem to be so fond of black and white thinking…,” as if he’s super-nuanced in his thinking. As if making lame-assed rape jokes about how annoying Skepchicks are is edgy, and is the pinnacle of Deep Thought™.
Is this another manifestation of the Dunning-Kruger effect?
Omg.
I give up. I quit.
See you all when I’ve had a suitable quantity of alcohols and/or caffeines.
Would you consider doing something, like turning down the violence in your jokes?
nigelTheBold,
He also seems fond of the phrase, “engage his fingers.
For example,
I think he is Dunning-ed up the Kruger without a paddle.
Fuckface, has it ever occurred to you that ‘rational’ isn’t just a word you say, but actually means making arguments unlike the ones you made in 148?
I’m a little fuzzy on the whole non-black-and-white-thinking business, myself…
So in between and “rape is always bad!”, there’s room for ?
Is that the point?
Seriously?
What an asshole.
Yeah, Owlmirror. You got to free up your mind, and supress your negative knee-jerk reaction to rape. Nothing’s black-and-white, amirite?
[/sarcasm]
Cipher,
Thank you. I will send you compensatory caffeine and alcohol for allowing me to bookmark your resource.
Louis
I had that happen to me in the summer of ’07. It took a team of surgeons thirteen days of constant shifts to remove it, but eventually I developed a clue.
;-)
Louis
This is addressed to Mozg the Chill Girl, if you’re still reading.
Scroll up and look at the comment by lordpasternak, quoted by Hairhead at #165.
In my experience, men who make those kinds of “jokes” have serious issues with misogyny. Specifically, they do not respect women’s boundaries, and they demonstrate this in a variety of ways. Sometimes, too often, it’s rape. Sometimes it’s things that you would likely never pick up on your own (and would dismiss as beneath your notice were they pointed out to you). But those boundary violations exist on a spectrum.
Such men tell “jokes” like those to obtain validation from other men and from Chill Girls, and to assert the privilege they are given in a rape culture to violate women’s boundaries. IOW, those “jokes” are red flags.
By the way? When Lordpasternak talks about women, he means you, too. Not just all the “sweet and fluffy” ones you hold in contempt because they’re not as awesome as you think you are.
He, Pappa, and the other woman-haters on Rationalia tolerate you because you suck up to them. But, if you were alone with one or more of them and they chose to sexually assault you, that crowd would turn on you in an instant if you tried to pursue justice. “Bros before hos,” after all.
If that ever happened, we’d have your back. Not because we like you. We don’t. But because that’s not as important to us as fighting the attitudes that enable rape.
Louis:
I would take that bet. I wouldn’t take it with all men who made a rape joke, but with this shitnozzle? Absolutely.
Owlmirror: I think the thought might be, “Rape is not cool, but using the threat of rape is funny if you are annoyed by the target of the joke.”
Never mind that the joke requires being annoyed by Skepchicks right now. I mean, they are so damned annoying, with their pointing out that not everyone likes being hit on and treated as a sexual object. I mean, that’s the joke! Get it? If they don’t like being treated like sexual objects, it’s funny to threaten to force them into being sexual objects. Using violence!
Ah, non-black-and-white humor. It’s just so funny.*
* Not a factual statement
[do not disclose personal, private information here. Try it again and you will be banned. –pzm]
Bad fucking form, lingotastic. Expect that to be deleted.
Ms Daisy Cutter,
Oh you’re probably right. You know you’re probably right. I know you’re probably right. We all know you’re probably right.
But please allow me this one tiny sliver of optimism. This one scintilla of vain hope that Pappa, or someone very much like him, will read what I wrote and think Cipher’s links are a really good thing to read and learn.
I need it!
Louis
Lingotastic,
That is fucking outrageously disgusting. Fuck you for being a doc dropping arsehole.
I hope PZ sees it and deletes it immediately. In fact, let me just go and email him.
Louis
It’s not as if he’s trying to hide his identity. His name and address is in the public whois record for rationalia.com.
@lingotastic
That was unnecessary and stupid. I hope that PZ takes that down right quick, and that nobody uses that information to hurt anybody.
That was a really stupid thing to do.
Don’t care. You’re an asshole. Get the fuck out of here.
Okay, somebody-else’s-pappa –
Go ahead and explain the joke. I’m waiting to hear how funny it is.
http://boroarts.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/willy-wonka-wilder-300×300.jpg
lingotastic, dude, did you not see where everyone said DON’T DO THAT? You don’t fight violation of boundaries by violating more boundaries. Hopefully that will be deleted soon.
Thank you, lingotastic for ignoring the arguments of the horde from earlier in this thread.
Also, as you pointed out, anyone who wanted to find out who he is could do so. What is to say that those who want to know don’t already know.
Assclam.
I, for one, have emailed PZ. (I don’t usually do that because I figure it’s probably annoying, but this seemed above and beyond. Sorry PZ.) Hopefully he catches it soon.
Yeah, I mean, he’s practically asking for it, amiright?
Doc-dropping is stupid shit. Don’t fucking do it.
Lingotastic,
I don’t give a shit. There’s a world of difference between someone going and finding it and someone then posting it elsewhere on the web.
What do you expect anyone to do with that information anyway? Phone him up and say “naughty boy, no rape jokes!”? Fuck off. Fuck directly off. That is a total piece of shit move, you have violated his privacy very clearly. He didn’t chose to identify himself even if he has been (perhaps naively) lax about protecting his security.
Whilst it’s not a similar level of crime to a sexual violation by any stretch of the imagination, think about your vile excuse for your actions: “heyyyyyyy he was asking for it. He was wearing a poorly disguised website.” No he fucking wasn’t. You are a fucking violating piece of shit. Fuck off.
Whatever this rape joker does is his own problem, he hasn’t chosen to reveal his identity obviously and overtly (at worst he’s incompetent, at best he doesn’t care), you made that choice for him not knowing if he was incompetent or not. Arsehole move. To repeat because you seem morally bereft and fucking stupid: fuck off most directly with a large degree of off fucking.
Louis
Oh hey it’s gone.
Thanks, PZ!
PZ has spoken. I did not see that action coming.
Also –
Considering you started this kerfuffle by joking about whether it was morally feasible to rape members of this community, you have a hell of a lot of chutzpah coming down on anyone for “wast[ing] an absurd amount of time arguing amongst [our]selves.”
You struck first and in a way intended to provoke. What exactly did you think would happen? Your inability to suss cause and effect certainly degrades your self-assessment as a “rational thinker.”
I’m also confused about how “whatever I said, before I’ve even heard the critiques, is justified” could be anything other than black and white thinking.
Introspection! So easy even a theist can do it. (But not you?)
Cipher, #209,
Ditto.
I fucking hate this kind of pettiness. It is so easily misused.
Let’s imagine a circumstance where some self-righteous misogynist publishes the address of some female internet commenter he doesn’t like. I wonder if anyone would find that as innocent as this…oh wait, it’s exactly the same amount of innocent: not at-fucking-all.
Louis
Thanks PZ. Sorry to have disturbed you during your work day.
Louis
Just remember that it means “potatoe” in Spanish
Fuckface, this is the real world.
What’s up with idiots like you who seem to think that the internet was this magical thing disconnected from anything where people are totally not who they actually are and say things that have no meaning and most importantly no impact.
I’ve been living on the interwebs for a while. I met my BFF on the WWW. I’ve seen marriages start and end here, I’ve seen children grow here.
And I’ve met lots of people in meatspace who I only met on the internet before.
You know what I’ve never seen? People actually being different people in meatspace than online. Sure, sometimes I imagined their hair to be a bit darker.
So, given that so far the only reason you’ve given for not doing something is that there are some rules and you could be punished for doing it (you know, unlike thinking it to be wrong) I have zero doubt that your the same charming asshole in real life with a very thin coatimg of forced civility because you are aware that people might actually disapprove of you threatening your annoying coworker with rape.
lingotastic
Not cool, seriously not.
Did you read anything here?
I can’t stand this!
I was reading this thread until after 2 this morning (Pacific Coast time zone); I shut it down just after someone – I forget who, and I’m not going to go look it up – posted the anti-apology from Pappa.
Then I went to bed, after a long time, drifted off to sleep. And had the old rape nightmare again. Different place, different situation; same guy. Always the same guy.
So I spent the rest of the night awake, trying to forget. (As if.)
And I come back here over lunch, and find Pappa here. On Pharyngula. Crap.
I’m going to go hide under the desk now.
I’m so sorry, Susannah.
:(
Tak, your view on this is too .
On a less sarcastic note, at least you were in a position to help a person. Good for you.
There are a huge amount of assumptions being made about me here. I am not misogynistic, sexist or woman-hating in any way. I support equality in all its forms and have done for my whole adult life. I have posted uncountable times online about my support for equality of sex, race and sexuality. Just a few days before the Skepchick thread I started I posted a “Stop Rape” poster on FB, I am vocally supportive of gay rights and gay marriage both online and off. At no point did I say I think Skepchicks should be raped, or that I wanted that to happen. I posted a ridiculous parody thread asking a “moral” question because I’ve been so sick of the ridiculous irrationally conducted “debate” ever since Elevatorgate I felt it should be ridiculed.
Something you all need to understand is that while I am 100% supportive of matters of equality, I also absolutely support the right of free speech, even when it is extremely distasteful.
I didn’t post that thread naively. On Rationalia in the past we’ve had long, heated discussions on the topic of offensive humour, stemming from unpleasant jokes made about disabled children, jokes that appeared right after Michael Jackson died, jokes about Madeline McCann, etc.. Some of which I found very distasteful, others I did not. I happen to have an irreverent sense of humour, and believe it or not but there are lots of other people who also have irreverent senses of humour who are fully capable of understanding the seriousness of the topics involved, people who are morally upstanding and who’s thoughts and actions are good. Honestly, I’m one of those people. I understand that many people are unable to see the funny side of humour that entails rape, death, baby eating, etc., but that doesn’t mean that anyone who does is ethically and morally corrupt. Plus, one thread of sarcastic ridicule is not all of who I am. Anyone who took the time to find out, rather than condemning me blindly on some blog would quickly realise.
Tak, Hideous New Girl,
I’m horrified at what you witnessed, and glad you had the chance to testify in court and send that representative of the less-than-six-per-cent-of-rapists-who-actually-get-convicted to jail.
But it’s the Rationalia fuckheads who need to hear you. It may not have occurred to you, because the mere thought of Rationalia is probably literally sickening to you, but what do you think about posting your story in the rape-thread on their site?
I have an account there, and could post it for you. And then I am sure my account would be quickly deleted.
Anyway, I’m 95% sure you wouldn’t want it done, but if you do, give me the go ahead and I’ll do it and report on the responses.
Pappa @148: Stop defending yourself!
Well that makes it all better.
Seriously, pappa, stop trying to defend the indefensible. Just go hide in a hole somewhere until this all blows over. Which it will. But if you keep saying stupid things it’ll take longer.
@pappa #222
Silly pappa, didn’t you know that posting something on FB isn’t “go[ing] out and do[ing] something about it in the real world”?
Do you think that making jokes about rape helps to stop it? Or do you think that it reinforces the mentality among boundary-pushers that their behavior is socially sanctioned?
Pappa, #222,
That’s nice. If you look at my #73 and #171, you’ll see that I did not make those assumptions about you. In fact I have made, and am happy to make, the very opposite assumptions about you.
It would be nice if you could focus on that rather than on pretending it isn’t there.
Also, in my #171 section 2) there is a bold, italicised question. If the rest of the post is too long or dull, very likely it is, please just answer that part if you don’t mind.
Thanks.
Louis
Unfortunately, people who make rape jokes – rape jokes in particular – are doing harm, both to individuals and to society. We have provided evidence in this thread of that. You seem completely oblivious to the fact that not everything is about your Very! Important! Right! to make weak-ass jokes.
@Pappa:
It. Doesn’t. Fucking. Matter.
You used the (hypothetical) threat of rape as a silencing tactic towards a) women (and at least one man) you found “annoying” and b) people who disagreed with you.
That is HIDEOUS. And yet you’re here waffling about trying to score points in your favor. Ain’t going to happen. Since I saw Josh’s post, I’ve been shivering and nauseous. It was your decision to come out with that statement and yours alone. The fault lies with you. Not with people who don’t get the supposed humor in your statements.
Rape is a hideous, dismissive, silencing tactic, and you used it.
Now apologize or get the fuck out of here.
You have not explained why you think it is funny that annoying women might need a good corrective rape.
And you are a fucking liar. There is nothing truthful in this post.
Go to sleep in a bed of decaying porcupines.
someone-else’s-pappa (sorry, but I am not going to call you my pappa) –
I, and others, made assumptions about you based on what you said.
You posed a question: whether it was moral to rape very specific women who annoyed you. Those women, all have names, by the way. They’ve also endured countless months of rape threats, etc., etc.
If you were trying a bit of satire, to make fun of those who might ask such questions, you failed. If that was your intent, you didn’t display the requisite skill to pull such a thing off.
For evidence of this, look at the responses to your post.
If you are honest you know that many, if not most (if not all) people did not read it in the way that you intended. If you are honest you also know that you identified specific women in your “joke”. These women were not in on the joke. They were your punch
ing bagsline.Also not in the joke: people who have been sexually assaulted or are close to people who have or fear it on a regular basis. After all, their attackers all had reasons for why it was morally okay to do.
Also not in the joke: people who really and truly think this way. Which is a lot of people. As an anti-rape advocate, who has no doubt seen some of the research, you should know this. Other people have posted links about sexist jokes affirm sexist behavior.
Lastly, I suppose this bears repeating, but humor is a highly variable skill with practitioners running the gamut from Steven Colbert to your two your old nephew. What you claim you tried to do is advanced stuff. You don’t have the chops. If you won’t apologize for the rest, you should at least apologize for that.
Here’s the thing, Pappa – you can make all the stupid rape jokes you want. You can cry about us being mean all you want. But when you make those jokes, you WILL be criticized, and you WILL be marginalized, and sooner or later you and everyone like you will be sequestered in your own little corner of the internet, sniggering to one another without anyone else listening in, knowing that no one will take you seriously on anything. That’s what really scares you, isn’t it? That people will stop listening to you? That maybe, just maybe, people will decide your opinions aren’t worth shit and you won’t be able to get any attention any more? Because that is what will happen. The momentum on this is growing. Your little fit on your own little web site has been featured on at least three other blogs already, and now your site is known by hundreds, if not thousands, of people who didn’t know anything about it before, and what they know is that all that work you did on that site resulted in a big pile of steaming crap. Hiding your thread doesn’t help you out at all. In fact, it helps us out, because by hiding it you’ve contributed to your own marginalization.
Oh, we are. We’re marginalizing people who think rape is funny enough to joke about. See, I don’t give a shit what you think. I don’t even give a shit if you change your mind or not, ever. What I care about is making fucking sure that you are held up as an example of what not to do. I want to make it normal in society to look at people who make rape jokes and say “Are you out of your fucking mind?” I want rape survivors to not have to see and listen to people yukking it up about rape everywhere and not being called on it. I want the attitude you have to be driven out of decent society. And you apparently agree, since you’ve hidden your thread. Nice work.
If that’s actually true (which, as Janine points out, is not particularly compatible with thinking that rape as punishment is funny), I posted something at 149 that pertains to you.
FUCK YOU. You’re no one’s ally until you stop making “jokes” about whether it’s OK to sexually torture some bitchez you find annoying.
Jesus Christ—Would you find it funny to say “It is immoral to beat the Mayberry Queer Alliance guys and leave them tied to a barbed wire fence”? Especially if the guys had spent a year being taunted by people who thought Matthew Shephard’s death was funny?
You fucking vile piece of shit. I hate guys like you. Hate. Hate. I don’t need to make any assumptions about you; your actions are crystal clear. You’re a fucker and you give oxygen to people who really would rape a skepchick or bash a fag.
Fuck you.
Fuck you.
FUCK YOU.
pappa: You don’t get to just bribe your way out of this one with nice-guy points. It wouldn’t matter if you single-handedly ended war and instituted universal health care; joking about corrective rape would STILL be reprehensible and you should STILL be called out for it. No special pleading allowed.
Has anyone ever noticed how many fuckheads called out on their misogyny like to cite how much they’ve “done” for women’s rights? Which typically boils down to some boilerplate statements, guaranteed not to challenge too many people, that they’ve made on Facebook or whatnot.
Pappa, why don’t you fucking engage with the rape victims here who have told you how your “jokes” have affected them? You know, instead of simply going on and on about what a moral paragon you are?
But this would be an act of empathy and would dull that dark, cutting edge humor that they so highly prize.
Ha. I wrote my comment before seeing that one. Thanks for making my point for me. You can make all the free speech you want. But we can say “we’re not listening to you”, and we can say “you’re full of shit”.
Speaking of which, if you support free speech so much, why did you hide your thread? If you support it so much, stand the fuck behind it.
pappa:
Nope.
But it’s part of who you are.
Also part of who you are: someone who cannot recognize when you’ve done something stupid and offensive, and is able to admit wrongdoing and offer an apology to those harmed.
Pappa,
At NO POINT has anyone here said you should be censored. NO. NOT ONE PERSON.
What is being done is that you are being CENSURED. Your despicable behaviour and attitudes are being pointed out, analyzed, fisked, deconstructed, and criticized. Because we are . . . . SURPRISE!!!! . . . using the same freedom of speech which you use.
What has been pointed out is that your joke, however jocularly, condoned and promoted the rape of identifiable persons, further, those are identifiable persons who have been under abuse and threat for over a year.
What has been pointed out is that your joke supports and helps maintain a misogynistic rape culture which currently exists. This point in particular has been supported by cites and links to studies, making it a matter of fact, not of opinion.
What has been pointed out is that many of the responses on the Rationalia forum to your joke have directly abusive of Skepchicks, both collectively and individually, and maintain and exacerbate the sexist abuse to which they are subject.
What has been pointed out is that a number of the responses on the Rationalia forum to your joke is further jocular remarks about rape, remarks which both support rape culture, and which “trigger” male and female rape victims who read the blog.
What has been pointed out is that if you were to replace “Skepchicks” in your joke with “Blacks”, or “BlackSkeptics” or “Faggots”, the joke resulting would have you the object of complete contempt in the atheist/humanist community and far beyond. That it is acceptable to place women in that joke, moreover, very specific women, demonstrates very clearly the rape culture that you tolerate and support.
I guess some women are less equal than others.
@Pappa
You’re still an asshole. Actually you’re even more of an asshole for bringing “free speech” into this.
@Hairhead
You do have my permission to post it. It probably won’t do any good. These are people that are severely lacking in empathy and will probably say that they don’t believe my story.
I forgot to mention the was convicted and was sentenced to 12 years in prison.
1) I find face punching funny.
2) I want to laugh.
3) I punch someone in the face.
4) I laugh.
5) The punchee does not laugh.
6) Clearly the punchee does not understand my freedom of action and edgy humour.
7) Stop oppressing me by allowing me to punch you in the face and laugh.
Louis
P.S. Hello people who do not think the above is a good analogy. Real people are really traumatised by rape jokes. Even on the internet. You have no idea where your words are going, especially on a global, public medium like Twitter (see why I thought PZ’s joke was poorly thought out above).
Psychological trauma is every bit as real as physical trauma. I’ve broken many a bone, dislocated this and that, and generally scraped the fuck out of myself over the years. Not a single inch of it was as painful or debilitating as the things I have seen people with clinical depression or bipolar disorder or PTSD or borderline personality disorder go through (through work I have come into contact with people with these diseases and more). For starters my “war wounds” were badges of honour, not subjects of stigma that would all but exclude me from society.
Not all rape victims suffer such psychological trauma to an easily triggerable degree, but many do. Certain speech can be, for the right person in the right psychological state, worse than any punch to the face. I know what I’d rather have, clinical depression or a broken leg. It’s the leg every time.
Your right to free speech is not in any way impaired by people asking you to grow the fuck up and consider the impact of your speech.
And by perspective, this douchtastic colostomy bag means “laugh at rape and wish it on other people, like me!”
Because, of course, Mr. Douchtasic Colostomy Bag doesn’t need perspective. His is perfect! Because penis! It’s only rape victims who need perspective . … to mock rape victims and wish it on other women.
I’m just a blatant liar who mocks rape victims, doubles down, then tells rape victims to ‘get some perspective’. Totally not a misogynist, oh no!
Nah, you just thought it would be HILARIOUS to suggest that there’s nothing wrong with raping them. You know, cuz they annoy YOU. But it’s not about putting bitches in their place or anything. No misogyny there!
Even if everything you claim you’ve done is true, you negate all of your good works by supporting rape culture, mocking and dismissing the crime, then telling victims to “get some perspective” as if this isn’t about your hurt feefees.
You pout that other people are making assumptions about you. We work with what you give us. Get some perspective, you rape-cheerleading-and-then-lying-about-it douche.
Your unrenounced joke is prima facie evidence that this statement is a lie. Welcome to reality, where your actions are judged as the misogyny they are, not how you wish to be seen.
More prima facie evidence you lie through your teeth. That wan’t a parody of anything. It was simple misogynist bullying, put out there by a sexist bully to intimidate. Here’s your chance to show us otherwise. Renounce the joke, aoplogize to the women, stop doing such bullshit, and take to task menz who do.
But it is prima facie evidence of your misogyny and hatred toward women. Not one iota of respect seen. Renounce your joke, or shut the fuck up. You have outed yourself for what you are. A person with a tainted moral core.
Hey Peepee
Did you decide whether it’s ok to rape yet or not?
Misogyny is as misogyny does. Why the fuck can’t you people understand there’s no such thing as a Through and Through Truly Essentially Platonically Pure Misogynist/Bigot? That when you perform a misogynistic act you are committing misogyny?
I’m going to pretend, Pappa, that the reason you haven’t engaged with the actual arguments or evidence that underlie our objecting to your bullshit attempt at a joke isn’t that you’re an oblivious asshole who doesn’t care to learn new things if they’d be uncomfortable for him to know. I’m going to pretend that because people who are ignorant, but aren’t as willfully ignorant as you are, might be reading this thread. Here are two links that would help you understand where we’re coming from. They are pretty accessible, so you really have no excuse.
Link 1
Link 2
You forget it’s OUR free speech to denounce you for being a misogynist rape apologist for telling an unfunny rape joke. Or are you one of those assholes who forget that free speech goes more than one way?
People generally don’t blame dead people for being dead.
People don’t generally tell babies they’re lying when babies get eaten.
People don’t support baby eaters and murderers.
Seriously, how hard is it for you to get the fucking point?
Thank you, Cipher (#220)
You can scream that until you’re blue in the face, but we’ve seen evidence to the contrary.
Pretty is who pretty does and you’re ugly
Oh that’s an easy one. He’s a fucking coward. Rape is funny to him because it’s academic to him. He’s not under any threat. He doesn’t have to think about it, except to imagine the totally manly Death-wish-style revenge he’d exact on anyone who did to HIS
propertywoman.But talking to people who’ve gone through what he thinks is so funny? That would harsh his buzz, man! That might make him feel slightly bad for being such an incredibly huge asshole.
And, we can’t have that! Self-reflection is for pussies!
Besides, he’s no misogynist. He posted “Stop Rape” on FACEBOOK for god’s sake! That changes everything!
What is a little jokey corrective rape when who is ?
Dingos.
Pappa @ #222:
And yet you think that rape is something you can joke about. Not just rape, but rape as a silencing tactic. The fact that you don’t understand how morally bankrupt that is demonstrate that regardless of how you see yourself, you are acting in misogynistic, sexist, woman-hating ways. The fact that you seem unable to see that merely shows that you also have a fuckton of unexamined privilege.
But I thought doing stuff online didn’t count, since it isn’t “real life”?
No, you merely asked if it was appropriate to rape someone for being annoying. Again, suggesting the use of rape as a silencing tool, which is not original, or intelligent, or funny. It’s fucking disgusting.
And you chose to ridicule this debate by “asking” whether rape as a silencing tool would be a valid idea? Where is your ridicule of the other side of the debate? Did you suggest that Abby Smith should also be raped for being annoying? Did you mused about the morality of lynching DJ Groethe for being gay?
Fuck you.
And guess what. Extremely distasteful free speech will receive reactions, precisely because it’s distasteful. In case you’re not aware, the right to free speech doesn’t make you immune from criticism when you use your right to free speech to perpetuate toxic memes that reinforce systemic oppression.
I’m not sure if you know this, but claiming that a morally bankrupt question was meant as “homor” doesn’t make the morally bankrupt question any less morally bankrupt. Furthermore, from what little I’ve seen of the thread, if you aimed at sparkling some sort of discussion on the appropriateness of distasteful humor, you failed miserably. You did succeed at bringing to attention how many fucked up, morally bankrupt misogynists feel at home and welcome in Rationalia, however. So good job?
Let me try to explain something to you.
If you think that suggesting the use of rape as a silencing tool is funny, you are not a good person and you are not morally upstanding. Furthermore, the fact that you think this is something morally upstanding people do means you have no fucking clue what morality entails.
Since I appear to be one of those “many people,” care to explain what is funny about your original statement? Where is the joke in this:
It may not be all of who you are, but it definitely shows enough of what you are.
It’s corrective rape done in a gentle, humorous, affectionate, pokey-funny kinda way with star sprinkles! Which you’d get if you weren’t a stupid bitch.
@ Josh —
Your comment reminded me of this.
http://www.illdoctrine.com/2008/07/how_to_tell_people_they_sound.html
Pappa said,
There are a huge amount of assumptions being made about me here. I am not misogynistic, sexist or woman-hating in any way. I support equality in all its forms and have done for my whole adult life.
Except for Skepchicks, of course.
FOAD
Sorry about the HTML fail.
Damn.
But it was a woman who gave the report, so, you know, bitchez be lying and all.
Did you see the news last week that it was true after all?
Josh,
But haha I’m only haha joking when haha I say haha that haha women haha who annoy me haha need a good fixing haha via the medium of haha a cheery corrective haha rape haha.
Because it’s funny and it’s free speech. Haha.
All you prudish motherfuckers and feminazis can eat my free speech shit.
Hoho.
Louis
P.S. Is it getting funnier with the laugh track? ;-)
There are a huge amount of conclusions being drawn here from you making a comment with an implicit rape threat, and then doubling-down when called on it.
Your own posted words belie this.
Perhaps, in your mind, this is true. But your own posted words belie this.
Not in those precise words, but by implication:
If someone is annoying, they maybe deserve to be raped.
If an action actually isn’t immoral, then maybe it should happen.
Do you think rape threats are always ridiculous parody?
If you think that the misogynists and sexists are ridiculous and irrational, why didn’t you say so?
If you think that feminists are “ridiculous” and “irrational”, then you’re a misogynist.
Unless, of course, it’s feminists being “annoying” to you. Then you want the right to make rape threats.
I’m not so sure about that.
You seem to be very naive about what rape and rape culture actually means.
Ah. So intentions are sparkly fluffy magic that make everything said OK?
Let’s take it as granted, for the moment and for the sake of argument, that you have never committed rape yourself.
You are still trivializing rape to those who have been raped, and to those who are inclined to commit rape.
Do you think that rapists think of themselves as being “ethically and morally corrupt”? No. They think that the rape they commit is or was “justified”, often because their victim “deserved” it — just as in your own words, the notional Skepchick implicitly “deserves” it because she’s “annoying”.
But apparently a Skepchick being annoying is all of who she is, before you start judging her of being “deserving” of rape.
Did you take the time to find out that the Skepchicks are actually people before blindly condemning them to maybe deserving being raped?
Oh, goodie. The Hank Williams, Jr., defense.
I’ve followed this entire thread, and I don’t recall anyone insisting that you be arrested and thrown in prison. That’s what your right to free speech grants you; it doesn’t grant you immunity from criticism.
One person suggested you be outed, your real name & location be made public, and was vehemently disagreed with. Then someone posted your real name, and it was removed within minutes. We have respected your rights to free speech and privacy.
Since you’re so into irreverent humor and hyperbole, I guess you won’t mind if, next time you post a rape joke, I pop in and go Andy Kaufman on you, and fill 27 screens with “Ha ha ha ha. Hee hee hee. Ho ho. Ha ha ha ha ha. Hee. Ha ha. Ho ho ho ho.”
And so on.
Fuck, you are thick.
Kalliope-As usual, Jay Smooth is totally right. And soooooooooooooooooooooooo sexeh.
I am genuinely sorry that some people who have been affected by rape have been caused some further hurt by reading my thread. But I can’t renounce my joke for the simple reason that if rape jokes are verboten then by the same logic, so must dead baby jokes be so. Real people have had to live through the torment of a baby dying and must unfortunately also deal with the hurt of sometimes hearing or seeing dead baby jokes. People who have had children vanish without trace must unfortunately also deal with the hurt of sometimes hearing or seeing Madeline McCann jokes. People whose family have been murdered must unfortunately also deal with the hurt of sometimes hearing or seeing jokes about mass shootings or terrorism.
FIFY
Fuck off and die. Seriously. You’re even scarier than I thought; a full-on narcissistic fuck who cares more about his abstract humor affectations than he does about real people.
I pity your wife.
Pappa, #267,
Strawman.
Nobody said the jokes were verboten.
People said the joke had effects beyond those you considered and that those effects were not consonant with your claim to being not a misogynist etc. Now, to repeat:
If you look at my #73 and #171, you’ll see that I did not make nasty assumptions about you. In fact I have made, and am happy to make, the very opposite assumptions about you.
It would be nice if you could focus on that, and the fact that I have asked you a polite, logical question about what you did rather than on pretending it isn’t there.
Also, in my #171 section 2) there is a bold, italicised question. If the rest of the post is too long or dull, very likely it is, please just answer that part if you don’t mind.
Thanks.
Louis
Translation: I’m a misogynist rape apologist and proud of it. And bitchez ain’t shit! And I hope your baby dies! So there! NYAHHH!!!1!
The passive voice: First and last refuge of the douche.
Josh,
OOOOH CAN I DO A WIFE JOKE? THEY SO EDGY!
Louis
@pappa #267
I would love to see you cite some studies that show that jokes about dead babies contributes to the number of dead babies. I would love to see you cite studies that show that jokes about murder contributes to the number of murders.
People here have cited studies, and linked to them in comments in this thread and directed at you, that show that sexist jokes (and joking about the questionable morality of raping someone you disagree with IS sexist) contributes to the amount of sexism that people face. It’s definitely not a stretch to say that making jokes about rape provides cover for people who would, or have, commit such a crime.
Free speech, free speech, blah blah blah don’t ban rape jokes.
Show some fucking responsibility.
So, despite your lipservice to sympathy, you’re still okay with being the guy that causes that harm.
I call bullshit on your sympathy.
(And apparently you’ve missed the entire part about, you know, rape culture.)
Oh Pappa you’re such a martyr!
First they came for the rape jokes and I did not say anything because I did not approve of rape jokes.
Next they came for the dead baby jokes and I did not say anything because I did not approve of dead baby jokes.
Next they came for the Madeline McCann jokes and I did not say anything because I did not approve of Madeline McCann jokes.
Then there were no more jokes because I suck at being funny.
Didja make any Aurora jokes yet Pappa?
@267: “Pappa”, seriously, I’ve never seen anyone be this stupid and still be able to breathe spontaneously. How do you manage to type without a functioning cerebral cortex? Apologize-really apologize, not a stupid non-apology, and try to stop being such an impossibly stupid asshole in the future. You’re getting a lot of negative feedback because you’re doing something immoral. Stop it!
Your attempts at seizing the “free speech” moral high ground aren’t working. No one is trying to censor you. Unlike you, no one here is attempting to silence you with threats of violence. We’re simply trying to get you to think to the extent that you are physically capable of doing such at thing, and change your actions based on what you learn. Do try to develop a superego some day. It’s quite useful, even if it gets in the way of your “humor” once in a while.
Oh, this is rich. One rationalia member in that thread:
Rules-lawyers. Formality fetishists.
Blech.
Dear lord.
The jokes aren’t verboten. They’re just better left unsaid for the sake of common decency.
Sex isn’t verboten, but that doesn’t mean I blow my boyfriend at a children’s birthday party.
And if you really cannot see the difference between a rape joke and a dead baby joke (neither of which I would tell because I’m actually trained in comedy and so avoid telling unfunny jokes), then there’s nothing more to say.
You don’t get it. You don’t get it.
I would like to ask this one last question of you:
How is that you have absolute right to freedom of speech, yet the women of Skepchick have their freedom of speech met with queries about whether it is morally acceptable to rape them for exercising that right?
Are you quite as vitriolic about the avalanche of death and rape threats which followed Rebecca Watson’s exercise of her freedom of speech (AKA, “guys, don’t do that.”)?
These are questions to ask yourself. And you’re not going to like what you learn about yourself. But that’s okay, because you will feel much better once you’ve realized that you’re the kind of person who can ask those hard questions, challenge himself and grow.
So challenge yourself.
Dianne:
It’s a cry for help.
Terminalpalliative sedation is really the only merciful path.Let see what happens.
Yes, this fits in so fucking well in all of the tropes about eating dead babies.
, I am not sure which is your greatst problem; that you are dishonest, you are blind to your shortcomings or that you are stupid.
What ever the truth is, you are fucking unpleasant.
Go to sleep in a bed of decaying porcupines.
Kalliope, #279,
{Gasp}
PRUDE!!!!!!
HOW DARE YOU RISK HURTING MAN FEE FEES (IMPORTANT!) BY NOT PLAYING THE PEEPEE IN MOUTH GAME!!!!!!
For shame!
Louis
Oh, I laugh at dark humour, all of it clever and witty. I don’t laugh at hateful remarks about raping real people when they’re intended to hurt the people being referenced. That’s what this was.
Insincerity does not a joke make. The fact the dudebros get a chuckle out of it doesn’t make it lulzy. There was nothing remotely thoughtful or humorous about asking whether it was appropriate to rape certain women because they annoy you. The only people it served to humour are those who strongly dislike the Skepchicks and want to see them ridiculed and/or shut up. This was mean spiritedness in the worst of taste, not humour.
If you can’t tell a twisted joke without hurting someone, keep it to yourself. If all you’ve got is an insincere remark about rape and people you personally dislike, you don’t have a joke anyhow. You’re just being awful.
And anyone who isn’t extraordinarily careful about who they tell dead baby jokes around is a jerkwad.
Ah, use of “verboten”, the “implicit Godwin”: always worth a try if you’ve said something truly vile and been called on it. As has been said, no one is forbidding any kind of joke, but you can still be called a shithead for what you say, whether you label it a “joke” or not. Oh, and if a rape joke is like a dead baby joke, then a “joking” threat to rape is like a “joking” threat to kill someone’s baby. Is wondering whether it would be moral to kill Skepchicks’ babies – because they’re so annoying – lined up for you’re next post?
The thing about rape is that it’s really a hate crime against women and non-gender-conforming men.
It’s equivalent to lynching and gay-bashing and trans*-bashing that way.
Which is why analogizing rape jokes to murder and baby-eating jokes fails as an argument.
Yes! We live in a ! It is just as bad as the rape culture.
And then, the terrorists win.
They aren’t verboten, but they something to be ashamed of and renounced/apologized for when used like you did to bully women. Bullying/silencing women was the net effect of your joke, and that is why you need to apologize for it.
This isn’t a free speech issue, which is a red hering. It is an issue of your responsibility as an adult to behave like an adult. Which means you don’t do rape jokes when you are trying to silence disussion, which you were, and you know that. Only a moral coward can’t apologize uner these circumstances. You have no excuse not to apologize, and every reason to do so.
Which part of the rape threat was supposed to be funny?
Incidentally, it’s not the same logic. Although it may depend on the dead baby joke.
Do you tell jokes that involve implicit threats to the babies of strangers?
If those jokes could be proven to lead to more infanticide; more kidnapping; more spree-shootings; and/or more terrorism, would you stop telling them?
If the answer is “no”, then you care more about free speech than you care about other human beings.
Oh no…
What will the world do without dead baby jokes…
Random point that could be used to support any side at all: Terrorist jokes are forbidden under certain circumstances. Tell a funny joke about the bomb you have in your underwear while going through airport security and see how well they take it. This was also true, incidentally, pre-911 and TSA. Somehow this has not led to the politically correct dystopia right wingers and misogynists are so fond of masturbating to fantasies of.
Pappa, the only reason you can’t apologize is your over inflated ego is in the way. You simply can’t acknowledge you were wrong, because if you are wrong about that, what else are you wrong about? Typical of small minded people who are bullies. Cowards at heart.
Yeah, honestly I haven’t heard or told a dead baby joke since I was 12. Not sure if I ever did tell one.
Guess that’s why I’m a humorless feminist.
So, you’re a fucking asshole who doesn’t actually care about actual people because self-restricting yourself on the vile shit you utter publicly is much, much worse than people curling up and crying.
Also, cupcake, dead babies happen remarkably seldomly. And if they happen, anybody who makes a dead baby joke in the presence of the mourning parents would be a fucking absolute asshole and justly cast out of the social relations.
Rape, clueless idiot, is not rare. 1 in 5 women will be victims of attempted or completed rape, many more of them will have escaped it narrowly. If there are 5 women and 33 men reading what you’ve written then you’re almost certainly in the presence of a rape-survivor. Yeah, and we cast you out. We loudly criticise you. We tell you that we would not want to have anything to do with you.
Louis –
I offered one yesterday, after my poor BF threw his PS3 controller across the coffee table after dying at the hands of a particularly pernicious boss. And I was declined!
Obviously, I’m spoiling him.
@SallyStrange:
The only dead baby jokes I laugh at are the “atheists eat babies” type of jokes. But they’re not dead baby jokes, they’re jokes about atheists eating babies.
Re dead baby jokes: I definitively outgrew those at age 10 or 11. Most people do, I think. They’re not actually funny, except when you’re a pre-adolescent looking for something to shock the adults with. Most people grow out of that stage. Others, evidently…not so much.
Pappa –
I’m mostly a lurker and have been lurking for quite a while. Seeing social issues like feminism/racism/homophobia/transphobia encouraged me to look more critically at my various privileges and those of society at large. I’m sure there are others like me who don’t participate much but come away with a lot of food for thought and that has some. Not enough, but every bit helps.
You seem to be defining “rational” as “Free from emotion, passion or typical human responses”. This is an incorrect definition.
You ask here for understanding, but as far as I can see you have made little effort to understand the concerns of the posters here, which are legitimate and backed up by numerous sociological studies. Your concern about free speech is erroneous as no-one here has the legal authority to censor you.
I apologise for having to be the one to tell you this, but you are not Jonathan Swift and your thread is not “A modest proposal”. You lack the skill and apparently the empathy necessary for black humour.
FINALLY coming out of lurkdom after many years to say this to the great commenters here:
What you do here does in fact have an effect in the real world. I am a rape survivor. I was a child when I was molested repeatedly and raped. There was also an adult who knew and looked the other way. I was a messed up bundle of fear and distrust for many years. The abuse affected me profoundly for decades. It still affects me, such as when one of my abusers (a family member) called me up and told me what a horrible bitch I am. It affects me when I see people making jokes about raping someone, joking about the experience I and so many, many others have suffered through. I see stuff like that and I shake with anger and fear, with disgust. But reading the comments on Pharngula has a very positive effect on me. Even though I just lurk, it’s still like a support group.
You people here make me feel like someone really has my back, emotionally. When one of my abusers called me and screamed at me, I didn’t have much support at all. I heard a lot of people say “That’s just how he is”, told me I need to grow up and move on, etc. The commenters here are a breath of fresh air for someone like me–someone that has had those messages pounded into her head for so long. It can make you feel like you’re going crazy when people tell you that you need to just get over it, that it’s no big deal. I KNEW it was a big deal, but hardly anyone would validate that for me. But the commenters here confirm for me that I’m not crazy, that what was done to me was in fact so horrible that it’s not okay to even joke about doing it to someone.
Thank you everyone for doing what you do, saying what you say and how you say it. I NEED to see rapists and their apologists get smacked down here. You ARE acting in the real world, you DO help rape survivors. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
BTW, sorry if this post rambles, I’m not used to commenting, I have a lot going on today, and my emotions are all over the place.
Well, it is much harder to come up with a new joke than repeat a stale one. So, I suppose ‘funny’ dudebros will have to learn to be creative.
I can understand why the thought frightens Pappa YouDontKnowMe.
elltee –
You are not alone.
You are not alone.
You are not alone.
You are not alone.
You are not alone.
You are not to blame.
You are not to blame.
You are not to blame.
You are not to blame.
You did not deserve it then and you don’t deserve what it does to you now.
You did not deserve it then and you don’t deserve what it does to you now.
You did not deserve it then and you don’t deserve what it does to you now.
You did not deserve it then and you don’t deserve what it does to you now.
You did not deserve it then and you don’t deserve what it does to you now.
Elltee, that is breathtaking, as in my chest being crushed between two heavy objects.
Is there anyway to cut that person out of your life?
Please, no apologies. You exposed yourself and made yourself vulnerable by revealing your emotional response and your trauma. We should be thanking you. And I do. Thank you sincerely and profoundly. And I’m immensely gratified to know that what we do here contributes to an atmosphere where you feel that at least some people in the world have your back against the abusers, the rapists, the harassers.
You know? EVERY THREAD. Pretty much EVERY time we have one of these long drawn-out discussions, someone like you, or someone like coleopteron, comes out to share how it has affected them. Sometimes, like today, we get both. Survivors as well as non-survivors telling their tale of enlightenment and change. For the better. Putting the lie to Pappa’s claims that none of this is real, it’s all abstract, and it has no effect.
So thank you both, from the bottom of my heart. Truly.
elltee: I’m sorry! Also seconding what Kalliope said. You do not deserve what happened or what it does to you.
PS: Your comment was not in the least rambling. It was remarkable well organized, especially given the situation. Pull up a keyboard and stay a while, if you feel like it. (TET is usually much more friendly and is less likely to contain triggers, if you’re looking for something more escapist some time.)
I hate to say it, but you’re not alone in being criticised and blamed by family for having been raped either. I know I’m not the only person who, into adulthood, still gets asked “Well, why DID you let them do that to you?”
Thank you, elltee, for letting us know that beating our heads against the wall is not pointless.
What kind of cookies do you like? We have oatmeal raisin and chocolate chip.
Getting blamed for my sexual assault was definitely THE most traumatic thing about it, so seeing people promote these attitudes that encourage men to think that some women deserve to get raped, because they are so annoying or whatever, contributes directly to what hurt me the most about being assaulted.
Oh jeez, I harbour no ill will towards my parents for the fact sexual assault occurred. It was holding the victim responsible in the aftermath that was soul destroying. That, I can’t forgive. I can’t get beyond that.
Pappa, the regulars of Pharyngula can do one thing you can’t do. That is to shut the fuck up and listen to the stories like those presented here this afternoon. And listen to them with empathy toward the victims.
That is how we know why EG was totally out of line with his proposition a year ago. Just like we have trouble understanding why there was the totally out of line response from peole like you to a very mild and deserved rebuke by RW for the incident. Listening with empathy is hard, but it can be learned.
Thank you for sharing elltee, and I’m sorry that you had to go through this.
I cannot understand why anybody would want to criticise Rationalia or its illustrious leader, Pappa. They are all way out of my league and most of yours too. I myself voluntarily stopped contributing to Rationalia when I realised I would need a full lobotomy in order to participate there fully, as an equal. I have been searching for a brain surgeon to carry out the procedure ever since, but all so far have refused – which proves brain surgeons must all be Christians bent on preventing rational discussion.
One day I will get my way, and then I too will be able to command PZ Myers’s attention for a full 2 minutes like Pappa did. Well done Pappa. You are an example to the rest of us
-Exi5 xxx
Thanks for sharing Elltee and Marinerachel, and hot damn I am fucking sorry you had to experience that shit.
There are moments when pacifism comes very hard, reading stories like yours are high among them. I want to lay about me with a heavy object (as if it will do any good). I cannot imagine how you feel.
Louis
Pteryxx, we have at least one male rape victim here who has spoken up, too.
Poopoo:
Your fauxpology is noted.
I’m sorry, but I must have missed all the news headlines of people keeping parents “in line” by threatening to kill their babies. Or, when babies are murdered by people other than their parents, the cops telling the parents, “Well, you must have asked for it” and declining to investigate.
I must have also missed the news headlines about victims of terrorism not being believed.
You can’t your because your ego is more important to you than anything else.
Tak, #276, LOL. And welcome.
Giliell:
I apologize for the derail, but this is becoming less and less true in the U.S., due to poverty and regressive policy.
I realize that not everybody is able to cut ties with family, for financial or other reasons, but…. Elltee and Marinerachel, you are not morally obliged by shared DNA to put up with that kind of shit. If you can cut such individuals out of your lives, do so.
Oh, wait. Then why did you write to me demanding that I remove that comment that disclosed your name and address*, under threat of taking legal action against me? I don’t think that word “absolutely” means what you seem to think it means.
*Which I did before I saw your email, by the way, at the behest of other commenters here, and because I would have done so as soon as I saw it anyway.
Q: How many skeptics does it take to change a light bulb?
A: At least seven:
One to explain that you can’t judge the light bulb for this one instance of being out and that if you knew it in real life you’d know that it supports the concept of light 100%;
One to blame ‘illuminazis’ for wanting to censor darkness;
One to claim that the person wanting to change the bulb is guilty of argumentum ad darkenum and ‘strawbulbing’;
One to smugly quote parts of Hitchens’ positive review of Darkness at Noon;
One to ask who decides if something is ‘out’, and if it’s left up to the FtB Hivemind and PZ’s minions, we won’t be able to play baseball, homosexuals will have to stay in the closet, and no one will be able to leave their homes at all;
One to blame Rebecca Watson for darkmongering;
One to decide that both sides are just as bad and that there’s no problem because Diablo III is fucking awesome when played in the dark.
Wait, I fucked up that joke. The set up should be “How many skeptics does it take to completely ignore a burnt out lightbulb and instead pat themselves on the back for being able to explain why ESP most likely does not exist?”
Ms Daisy Cutter, you’re right… I was trying to riff off of sir-not-a-misogynist toxic-masculinity there. (Now I wonder if he’d also joke about corrective rape of gay guys, being a believer in equality and all. Bleargh…)
Oh, and hey, what about this?
Your commitment to that absolute right to free speech seems to be a bit, you know, elastic.
Yes. Absolutely, indeedy. Thank you.
And I appreciate how difficult it can be to be so open in front of strangers. You are brave.
One to smugly quote parts of Hitchens’ positive review of Darkness at Noon;
I find this part of the joke oddly hilarious.
buah-buah-buah-ha-ha-ha
So that was Pappa’s joke!
@315: I think what Pappa meant to say was “I absolutely support the right to freedom of speech…except when it’s inconvenient for me.”
You can’t. I am not funny. We know this because I don’t think rape jokes are the absolute pinnacle of humour.
I shouldn’t have clicked on that link – and I didn’t read the comments here – cause now I’m all stomping mad. However, if you didn’t notice (though I am sure many did) their lawyer posted somewhere on page 31 a bizarrely unprofessional and threatening comment. Here are two excerpts:
I’m going to avoid getting into this thread, but I thought I’d share that observation.
The only way you could be any unfunnier would be if you were a woman.
Oh, buuuuuuurn. Not so free-speech when it affects you, huh, pappa?
Respecting-personal-space-hugs and virtual fudge (nut-free) and plushies to everyone who’s had a hard time with this thread, and everyone who’s spoken up about their own traumas. I’m extremely lucky (and randomly so, not through any actions of my own) to not have serious trauma in my past, and the constant barrage of the last few months has taxed me to no end. I can’t imagine how much fortitude you all have within you to deal with it. My only hope is that this is the big lancing of the festering sore, and that eventually the pus will all be drained and at some point it will trickle to nothingness.
I’d change my handle to “Ms. Daisy Cutter, Illuminazi” but I’d probably get a ration of shit from Orac over it.
If rape as a joke is bad,
how bad is rape as a sport:
I have a glorious deal to propose to you:
When people stop legitimizing rape culture and working to upset women by joking about raping women on the internet, I will stop posting responses about people legitimizing rape culture and working to upset women by joking about raping women on the internet.
Deal?
Someone who is this DOES NOT MAKE RAPE JOKES.
Someone who is this DOES NOT MAKE RAPE JOKES WHERE THE PUNCHLINE IS ABOUT SILENCING VOCAL WOMEN WITH THE THREAT OF RAPE.
Someone who is this DOES NOT DEFEND THE MAKING OF RAPE JOKES WHEN CALLED OUT ON IT MY ACTUAL VICTIMS OF RAPE.
Someone who is this IS NOT PAPPA.
Nah. Orac doesn’t care anymore.
And Hell, if he complains, it’ll be an excellent opportunity to point him elsewhere.
Man, I’m having a tough time deciding this one. On one hand, we lose all those terrific, side-splitting dead baby jokes; on the other, we get to keep all those heartwarming, cheery jokes where we threaten to rape people we know.
I don’t know what to decide.
Also, another little factor here. Dead baby jokes have a very specific form, rather like a knock-knock joke. They sort of signal their unreal nature from a long way off (but you still wouldn’t say one to a person who’d lost a child. Or to an audience where someone might have lost a child. Hmm, there aren’t many places where it is appropriate, are there?)
What “pappa” wants is his right to talk about some specific child who is, for instance, crying obnoxiously (or even, not — just existing in a way he disapproves of), and say: “Would it be immoral to strangle that baby? Not because I’m a serial killer or anything like that, just because they’re so annoying.”
Because that joke is hilarious.
And so clever!
And I support religion and telephone psychics 100%.
What?
YOU DON’T KNOW ME!
Someone who is this DOES NOT MAKE RAPE JOKES WHERE THE PUNCHLINE IS ABOUT SILENCING A VOCAL WOMAN OR GROUP OF WOMEN USING THE THREAT OF RAPE.
There is a difference between supporting extremely distasteful free speech, and ABUSING that freedom to ENGAGE in extremely distasteful free speech in a transparently and deliberately hurtful manner.
Because the right of free speech also includes the right to choose to remain silent if one so wishes, for the sake of compassion and decency.
But instead, Pappa, you have chosen, freely, to exercise your right to behave like a misogynistic jerk, and in doing so have revealed yourself to BE misogynistic jerk.
And now I am exercising MY absolute right to free speech to tell you to fuck off, you pathetic shitheaded fapwit.
I’m feeling overwhelmed with all the supportive responses, it really means a lot to me. Just to clarify–yes, the abusers are now out of my life. At the time when one of them called me, I was just getting to the point in my recovery where I was finally getting strong enough to break off contact. Now I’ve just got my husband and my kids, but that’s okay–ridding my life of my abusers and their enablers/apologists has been the most healthy thing I’ve ever done!
Wish I could say more, but it’s gotta wait–groceries and dinner prep are waiting! I would love to join in TET sometime, thanks for suggesting it Dianne.
‘Tis Himself, I would love the oatmeal raisin, if the raisins are soaked in rum!
*sigh*
Alright, Pappa, I have a question for you. When someone kills a baby, how many people insist that maybe it was the baby’s fault? How many people insist that the baby should have done something different? How many people argue that, well, maybe intentionally killing a baby isn’t MURDER because maybe that baby just overwhelmed the parents by inducing a wild desire to kill in said parents? How many declare that we shouldn’t punish the baby killer because it would ruin his/her life? How many argue that it isn’t that bad because the baby killer is a really nice guy? How many say that we can disregard all physical evidence that someone killed a baby because said someone has done a lot for the community and clearly wouldn’t do such a thing? How many people kill multiple babies, have their place of employment (oh, like a University) cover it up, and then have hundreds of people RIOT when someone who helped cover up the baby killing is fired from said place of employment? How many examples do we have of the Vatican covering up mass killings of babies by moving the baby killer and not warning anyone that the killer had killed babies? How many people post pictures of killing babies and get off with only probation? How many people fight to keep statues on their campus that are of baby killers?
When you’ve answered those, I can come up with more, or we can agree that rape and baby killing do not occupy the same place within our societal consciousness, and that this difference makes then not comparable.
I has very sad. I made nice with Pappa, I didn’t call him a misogynisms. I did not insinuate he fucks goats. I asks nice question. I gets nothing.
I am going now to contemplate free speech and waft scented oils over my man parts.
I AM DISAPPOINT! BRING NEW SEXIST PLEASE! THIS ONE WAS SHIT!
Louis
Arse-licker.
Never on a first date.
Louis
Papa, here’s my take on why you really are a misogynistic, sexist, woman hater. Your ‘joke’ about raping Skepchicks says flat out that some people deserve to be raped, that rape is a punsishment. I would bet dollars to donuts that you think that someone being raped in prison is a hoot because they deserve it.
So who gets to decide who is derserving of rape and who is not? For prison, or the death penalty, or even fines, we have a legal system set up to determine, first off, who gets punished and, second, how great that punishment should be. Whether it is depriving someone of his or her life or telling them they need to pay $50 and pick up the garbage, there is a system in place for this.
You have stated that Skepchicks deserve to be raped because they are annoying. You have decided (well, to be fair, you are still in a ‘dunno’ phase on this) that rape is an acceptable punishment and that you are the ‘legal system’ that gets to determine who is deserving of rape.
Does this mean that every single woman (or man, or child) who is raped deserved it? Who got to make that decision? The rapist?
Get this through your thick misogynistic sexist head: RAPE IS NOT A PUNISHMENT AND NO ONE, EVER, DESERVES TO BE RAPED NO MATTER WHAT! Is that clear enough for you? Didn’t think so. But I had to try.
I was raped at the age of 9 and 10. Did I deserve it? Others here, men and women, have been raped. Did they deserve it? If your answer to those questions is no, then you should understand why your ‘rape humour’ has been met with resistance. If you answer yes to either one, then you need to explain how you arrived at that decision and if you can’t do that, it shows you have no clue what the fuck you are talking about.
See, here’s the thing: I could accept that you made an attempt at parody which went horribly wrong if you’d then done the decent thing and apologised, and maybe removed the post. But nope, you followed it up with a not-pology and some bleating about “free speech”, which apparently only applies to you and not the many people who were hurt by your “joke”.
*sniff sniff*
I smell Peepee
Okay, so here’s what’s happened so far.
After much deliberate, not naive at all thought, Pappa decided to threaten a group of women with rape because they annoyed him. And there was much rejoicing at Rationalia over Pappa being so funny and putting those bitches in their place.
Pharyngula hears about Pappa’s rape joke and are distinctly unimpressed with both him and his joke. Pappa’s bestest buddy comeatmebro comes by to tell us that Pappa is a good guy and as soon as he knows The Joke is “inappropriate” he will abjectly apologize and retract The Joke. Oh yes, comeatmebro chastises us for lacking senses of humor and the folks at Rationalia are also good guys who will condemn The Joke as soon as they stop laughing. When evidence is presented that the majority of Rationalia folks commenting on The Joke aren’t condemning it, comeatmebro gets all huffy and accuses us of being prudes or closet Republicans or something equally nasty. PZ gets tired of comeatmebro’s apologetics and tells hir to disappear until after Pappa has apologized. comeatmebro accuses PZ of banning hir because xe disagrees and PZ bans hir for not following directions.
Just before the turn of the thread, it’s reported that Pappa is doubling down, saying that PZ is a good guy who should STFU about misogyny and rape apologetics and The Horde™ are a bunch of retarded retards who wouldn’t recognize a funny joke if it raped them.
The commentariat does not take this well. Also the Rationalia thread is quarantined so we won’t know the sooper sekret discussion going on there about The Joke. But since members of The Horde™ are also members of Rationalia, this tactic is worse than useless. As a bit of comic relief, known troll reasonabel shows up for a bit of trolling.
Pappa shows up at post 148 (648) to denounce us as literal minded killjoys who do nothing in “the real world” to combat rape. Also we’re spending too much time decrying rape and misogyny and not enough time doing something else not defined. Besides despite the name Rationalia isn’t actually a rational place, it’s where the dudebros can get together and tell rape jokes.
The commentariat does not take this well. At post 222 (722) Pappa returns to tell us he’s a good guy who tells people on Facebook not to rape. He’s an absolute supporter of free speech, as long as it’s him doing the speaking. Also there’s other tasteless jokes so lighten up.
The commentariat really does not take this well. Finally at post 267 (767) Pappa apologizes for The Joke except he retracts the apology because then he couldn’t tell dead baby jokes.
The saga continues.
Ah, the Bravest of the Brave continue to troll down in Rationalia-land. Here’s the latest — I wouldn’t say for amusement, but I would say for edification: (I added the bold myself)
So it’s yet another variation of “Can’t take a joke bitches? Bitches, SHUT UP!”
Honestly, they get it even less than four-year-olds. I mean that, seriously! Four-year-olds understand, “He yelled at you and called you a poopyhead because you screamed at him diaperface.” Child giggles. “If you don’t scream and call him diaperface, he won’t yell at you and call you poopyhead.” Realization dawns on face of four-year-old. He runs off to practice what he has learned.
Yes, they have less sense of the consequences of their actions than four-year-olds.
Fucked up my HTML. Here it is with appropriate bolding.
Ah, the Bravest of the Brave continue to troll down in Rationalia-land. Here’s the latest — I wouldn’t say for amusement, but I would say for edification: (I added the bold myself)
So it’s yet another variation of “Can’t take a joke bitches? Bitches, SHUT UP!”
Honestly, they get it even less than four-year-olds. I mean that, seriously! Four-year-olds understand, “He yelled at you and called you a poopyhead because you screamed at him diaperface.” Child giggles. “If you don’t scream and call him diaperface, he won’t yell at you and call you poopyhead.” Realization dawns on face of four-year-old. He runs off to practice what he has learned.
Yes, they have less sense of the consequences of their actions than four-year-olds.
Thank you for posting that, eltee. You make it worth while to fight on.
You obviously don’t know one thing about rape, fuckwit. I’ve been raped. Not only for six years a child, but when I was 16, a serial rapist and murderer got a hold of me. I’m lucky to have survived. I was in the hospital for two months and faced two years of trials.
I spent years counseling and acting as an advocate. What in the fuck have you done, “Pappa”, besides muse on raping a woman for the crime of being annoying to you? Don’t you fucking dare show up here to play self-righteous, you ignorant pisscake.
I’d like an answer to an earlier question – is it okay for us all to muse on whether or not it would be okay to rape your wife?
You must have very low self-esteem. Pappa is an egotistical fool who vastly overestimates his intelligence, and the others that have posted here show similar lack of cogency and intelligence. They are not our peers except in the loosest sense, as they lack empathy.
Pappa did that by being stupid, misogynic, and unintelligent. You appear to be already there too.
Ah yes, the time honored tradition of slapping around shrill bitches.
People keep telling me Rebecca Watson portraying conferences as gropefests is the reason women aren’t attending them. In actuality, the reason I, a woman, don’t want to attend said conferences is people who make jokes like “Would it be immoral to rape a Skepchick” and many more who will defend such behaviour might be there.
Just gotta put those uppity bitchez in their place, eh? What better way than using rape to do it. And you idiots don’t see a problem with that. :shakes head:
Nerd, xe was kidding.
Don’t know what ‘Tis soaks his raisins in (he sails, so rum isn’t out of the question), but we at the Pharyngula Saloon and Spanking Parlor use 5-day-old grog, and let them soak two days. Any longer, and they catch fire when baked.
Nerd, xe was kidding. It’s getting so hard to tell! Things I previously thought only a troll would say are being said by real people under their own names! And the unnamed people are saying even more extreme things. Waaah, such madness! O_O
Blockquote faaaaaail!
Ah yes, such a truly noble goal.
elltee, ♥ {hugses}
I agree with Ing! Who could possibly question a man who makes jokes about raping women so as “to slap [those women] around?” Surely any creature that opposed using rape jokes as a method of upsetting women has no place in civil society!
Unfortunately, Jon Campbell’s “Tanqueray Martini-Oh” is not on YouTube.
Incidentally, I’m a scotch drinker.
Oh! Well! If only we’d known!
*rolleyes*
But in all seriousness, look at that fucking wording. Christ.
Of course, as soon as I posted #361, I found
.
Isn’t “slapping the skepchick” a euphemism for…you know…self-thingy?
Did I miss a memo?
Louis
No, Louis. Slapping the Skepchicks is punishment for saying “guys don’t do that.” That’s really annoying to people making anti-rape postings on Facebook and posting uncountable times online about their support for equality of sex, race and sexuality. Just ask Pappa, he’ll explain how the Skepchicks are totes destroying his pro-feminist buzz.
The argument from it’s-only-the-internet is not only bullshit, it’s a massive technology fail.
Do these people imagine that the computer turns all people (except them) into robots? That everyone else stops being real people with feelings and emotions and all, just because they’re using a computer to communicate? It’s as if your mother is not your mother when you are emailing her, rather than joining her for Sunday lunch.
Partly paraphrased from here .
* Huh. I see others have made this point already. But the link is worth sharing. No major triggers, some discussion of on-line bullying.
Yeah, I realized that after posting. Too late then.
J.A.I.N.
Yes yes I wasn’t sexist or anything. I just was using rape to shut those fucking uppity bitches up. Is that so wrong!?
So, being “shrill”, “hypocritical” and “annoying” means someone deserves to be “slapped around”. No, no problem there. Not at all. /sarcasm
‘Tis, #365,
Oh you make it sound as though what Pappa and chums are doing isn’t masturbation.
;-)
Louis
[meta]
Himself @345, a skilful and succinct synopsis, but the gratifying delurkings are worth noting.
You’re right, John. I should have included those.
Sorry Pappa, not buying your excuses. You made a deliberate, direct attack on a group of women using the violent, hateful imagery of rape as a vehicle. You may have every right to do that, but the rest of us have every right to point out how vile and stupid it was to do that.
Apologizing for the hurt you caused isn’t the end of free speech, or even the end of bad jokes. It’s just something decent, thinking, rational human beings do when they realize they’ve gone too far and hurt someone.
Grow up.
Here I go, venturing into Slime Pit II – ugh! Let’s see what I come up with . . . . ah! Perfect! (mild trigger warning)
Oh, I MUST post this! We are . . . . (gasp) unfair! To! Poor! Pappa!!
People he doesn’t know on the internet said bad things about him. That’s what he’s been “subjected to”. Besides, I thought everything on the internet was meaningless? That’s the line those people have been taking.
So, it all comes back to my failing to make my cooter available to every Tom, Dick and Harry who might like access to it. I knew it!
Oh, that stupid comparison with dead baby jokes. Already dealt with:
This is not to say that dead baby jokes are always appropriate. But this is why they are qualitatively different from rape jokes.
If Pappa can’t understand this demonstrable qualitative difference, then he is not very smart. But here’s some links again.
Oh and Erista said it more comprehensively. Pappa, be sure you read that.
Q: How many dead babies does it take to lynch a lightbulb?
A: Rebecca Watson.
If anyone doesn’t get that joke or realise how funny it is then that is because they lack my sophistimacated sense of edgy free speech humour. That joke is not the totality of who I am. I’m totally the new Frankie Boyle.
Edgy.
Louis
Oh for the love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Pappa is entitled to joke about raping the Skepchicks and they/we are not supposed to be offended (it’s just the internet!), but Pharyngula is not allowed to express disgust with Pappa making jokes about raping Skepchicks because he shouldn’t have to deal with all the negative attention?
What. The. Fuck. If Pappa didn’t want to deal with negative attention, perhaps Pappa could have considered that the Skepchicks and the rest of us didn’t want to deal with him making jokes about raping Skepchick.
so you didn’t read the research papers. your willful ignorance about the real consequences of your actions are noted, and consequently everything else you may have to say on the topic will be ignored as equivalent to the ramblings of a creationist until you remedy your willful ignorance by acknowledging and addressing the research.
your luddism and reality-denial have also been noted. FYI, since both the internet and the people on it a real, your comment is self-evidently incorrect.
There are a huge amount of assumptions being made about me here. I am not misogynistic, sexist or woman-hating in any way. I support equality in all its forms and have done for my whole adult life.1)intent is not magic; 2)since you’re refusing to read the papers on the effects of bigoted humor, and have doubled down on doing harmful things, the evidence at hand suggests that what you care is your self-image as someone who supports equality, rather than actual support for equality.
1)taste is irrelevant; this is about harm 2)”free speech” does not mean the right to say harmful things without getting your ass handed to you verbally; 3)your free speech rights aren’t being threatened, since no one is trying to get the government on your ass.
Dunning-Kruger. Read the goddamn research.
irrelevant.
such capability would have to include the ability to read relevant research and then stop supporting rape culture after reading the research. Therefore, neither you nor those who supported you on Rationalia have the capability (or willingness) to understand the seriousness of the topics involved.
it means you’re objectively harmful. And because you’ve doubled down after the research has been made available to you, it means you’re harmful on purpose, which absolutely means on this topic, your ethics are fucking broken.
it’s maybe not all you are, but it is part of who you are; the rape-culture supporting, willfully ignorant, willfully harm-causing part. if you don’t like this part of yourself, change it.
no you’re not. sorrow is a feeling that would cause you to try to minimize whatever was the source of it. so what I might believe you feel sorry about is being called out on your contribution to rape culture. You’re sorry you were caught.
read the research you ignorant, arrogant twerp. Until you do, your opinion on this subject is as worthless as that of creationists on the topic of evolutionary biology.
– – – – – –
he’s one of those specimens who think that “rational” means “without feeling or accounting for emotion”, where anger is only an emotion if experienced by women or minorities.
QFT. Harm has not “been caused”. Pappa caused harm.
holy crap, I’d forgotten about that. “I support free speech” my ass. What pappa actually meant was “I insist on the unique right to say what I feel like without anyone criticizing me”
– – – – – – –
Elltee, thank you so much for delurking. I’m very glad that you find use in what we do.
fucking blockquote fail.
1)intent is not magic; 2)since you’re refusing to read the papers on the effects of bigoted humor, and have doubled down on doing harmful things, the evidence at hand suggests that what you care is your self-image as someone who supports equality, rather than actual support for equality.
PordFrefect(? hard to tell who’s saying what), via Hairhead:
Oh! Sorry, it seemed like naming the forum “Rationalia” was meant as some sort of indication of having interest in rationality and skepticism. I didn’t realize that this was completely false advertising; the intellectual equivalent of a codpiece on a eunuch.
I guess he’s not interested in rationality, skepticism, or honesty.
Paappaappaappa: As a suggestion, rename your site something like “Dudebrolia” or “BoysClubForMenz”, or like that, just to make it clear what your real values are.
Or, don’t. I can’t compel you to be honest.
I’d just like to shout out a quick thank you for all of the lurkers who have delurked for the first time to speak to us all!
Also, thank you to everyone who has shared their painful experiences. I know it was hard, but I agree with Elltee about how incredibly healing it can be to come to a place that doesn’t put up with blaming, shaming, judging, or dismissing. It can be really hard to find such a place.
I’m not a violent person, I’m a complete pacifist. I only punched that fucker because he was annoying. How annoying was he? He was lecturing me on not punching people! The nerve!
Louis @#381:
That is easily the most edgy, nay, irreverent joke I have ever read.
And so sophisticatedly nuanced!
Hearty congratulations.
The downside to this place being populated so many awesome smart people is that there are times when there’s absolutely no point commenting because it’s pretty much everything that needs saying has been said already.
‘Pappa’, seriously. You fucked up. You fucked up big time. Own it, admit it, learn from it.
Oh, and you have a serious douchebag assole problem amongst the commenters on your site. Perhaps you should look into doing something about it.
@Wowbagger
Oh sure there is. The constant barrage of voices really really annoys people like Pepe
Oh, and all hail Tpyos…
“colonizing”, eh?
one way you know that consciousness-raising on a particular aspect of social justice is starting to get through is when the defenders of the status-quo start using social-justice terminology in their defenses of the status-quo.
I promise to stop migrating to and settling in Pappa
. . . What?
When I read the word “colonising”, I needed to look up the spelling.
I never really noticed the the “colon” in “colonize”.
Oh, oh, I didn’t either! I was all “What do colons have to do with anything? Is this the punctuation or the organ?”
While it would be humorous to imagine us planting a squidy flag right up Papa’s napa, we have no plans for colonizing. NOt until we hammer out a firm contract with the East Pharyngula Trade Company.
I would just like to point out that it is completely untrue that Pappa “absolutely supports the right of free speech”, even when it is extremely distasteful to him. I can attest that Pappa himself gave me a written warning in Rationalia Forum last year when I proposed a democratizing amendment to Rationalia’s Constitution. I had better just say I was polite throughout, and will remain so, which is more than I can say for quite a few other people over there.
By all means people can disagree with me – it was a majority who disagreed with me at Rationalia – but my own freedom of speech was definitely not something Pappa was very interested in defending. Indeed as I remember he was very keen to justify the written warning I was given which was intended to shut me up, and succeeded, to general jubilation, (and not a small amount of subsequent dissent, I might add, where a number of people grasped what was going on and left the site for a better one.)
Pappa was definitely unsupportive to the point of destructiveness of my right of free speech then. Either he has forgotten the incident or he is hoping it isn’t brought up here. Either way his claim to support freedom of speech is demonstrably insincere, which is ironic really given that is what he was accusing me of last year. Glass houses, I suppose.
I think there are genuine problems to do with sex and abuse at Rationalia. I believe that what they call “light sexual banter” (the title of one of their subforums) is always kept active there because it can so quickly be deployed as verbal sexualized abuse when there is a need to discipline any members who genuinely step out of line. That’s why there is so much dissent here, and not there. This place is more balanced, because of free speech, Rationalia is more distorted – people get intimidated off the site if they rock the boat too much.
It is a pity they did not take up the opportunity to introduce a few checks and balances when we were discussing some of the issues last year, but they seemed to be more interested in putting me in my place with various levels of rudeness, macho language and sexual abuse – all in the interests of their freedom of speech, you understand, which I fully support. It’s just a pity they don’t support anyone else’s freedom of speech, and instead prefer to suppress free speech by dishing out warnings about moderator action, especially when someone might make a difference to the cultural norm there, which is essentially male-dominated, hierarchical and abusive.
Hardly “absolute support”, Pappa.
the way “colonized” works in discussions of racism is a bit like this:
in places like the US or Australia, racism works on two large subgroups: voluntary immigrants and colonized people (AKA natives and imported slaves). For various reasons, racism fucks the latter up more than the former, so it’s a relevant distinction. “colonized” people have historically be the main target of racism both as an idea and as actions, and so they carry deeper scars from it.
by extension, to “colonize” someone’s mind has come to mean making someone belonging to a conquered race/nation/ethnicgroup/whatnot think in a way beneficial to the invading/conquering power.
so to say that someone “colonizing” someone elseis to say the former are a dominant, invasive culture who’s oppressing and “brainwashing” the other side whose territory they’ve conquered into a self-oppressing mindset for the benefit of the dominant culture.
Apparently, we’re now the Pharynguline Empire on a relentless, brutal Internet-conquest campaign and we’ve just subjugated Rationalia and are trying to brainwash them into self-oppression by telling them that rape-jokes support rape culture
Ohnoo
Is my colon shaped like a colon?
Seriously though, how the FUCK does rationalia.com get away with supporting RAPE? Who are their sponsors? Do they want to be associated with criminality and rapist bloggers?
Should law enforcement start auditing rationalia? Obviously, there are people there who intend to commit criminal acts and, people being what they are, will brag about it with their friends.
This may become a legal matter.
moshiachone, stop trolling. you are contributing to a worldwide straw shortage
exi5tentialist #397
Your story is not surprising. Pappa has made it obvious the only free speech he’s concerned about is his. He objects to criticism because he sees it not as somebody else’s free speech but rather as an attempt to stifle his free speech.
Yes, moshiachone, because FtB should be more like the magnificent Pappa and steadfastly refuse to bring up the possibility of involving the law! Yes, if only we were more like Rationalia, we would understand the true meaning of not trying to legally punish free speech!
Quick, everyone, hoist the Rationalia flag! For FREEDOM!
‘Tis Himself #402
Exactly. I mean “absolute” support for free speech is a pretty ridiculous statement for anybody to support to the hilt. I can understand a bit of debate around the peripheries of free speech – hoax alarm calls, personally abusive language etc – but in my case there was none of that.
I was simply silenced at Rationalia – by Pappa – for making democratic proposals. No swearing, no rudeness, nothing but motions to be put to the vote.
I bear Pappa no ill will and I do wish him and his forum well – but I do not think they should go to other forums and misrepresent themselves. They are very much against free speech, as can be demonstrated in their history.
From the fuck-brain “pappa” on rationalia:
Its ludicrousness speaks for itself and its rape apologetics. I quote it in toto because I don’t want that MANSPLAINING shit wad to claim I quoted him out of context!
Erista, moshiachone isn’t an immigrant from Rationalia. He’s an anti-feminist troll. Don’t let him derail, just point out he’s trolling and strawmanning, lest anyone over at Rationalia uses his comments as “evidence” for how we’re really trying to stifle their precious, precious free speech.
Is there a term for this error? We see it a lot.
It’s like a misunderstanding of
VoltaireEvelyn Beatrice Hall:“I will not only defend to the death your right to say it, I will approve of what you say, because freedom.“
Ooh, thanks for the heads-up, Jadehawk!
And, in the interest of trying to keep people from Rationalia from saying he speaks for people like me, let me go on record as saying, “Trooooooooooll.”
moshiachone
You are embarrassing yourself.
You should stop.
@ Louis # 73
Epic post. My consciousness was raised by this post (and others on this thread).
Thanks.
Making light of rape is way off the charts.
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/posting.php?mode=quote&f=30&p=1049572
oh great. and now we got brainless Christianist trolls in this thread, too.
(isn’t Lion IRC banned? or did he get pardoned during the move to FTB?)
@Lion IRC I can’t read that because I don’t have an account?
I was just about to put up a link to the Justin Bieber anal rape with a barb wire dildo part of an appalling thread.
Ah, the old “free speech” strawman. Reminds me of liberturds, who forget that with freedom comes responsibility to share and not go out of your way to unnecessarily offend/step on others. Likewise, “free speech” does not mean the content of your speech will go unchallenged. Thinking you shouldn’t be criticized under the banner of “free speech” is irrational, juvenile, and irresponsible.
Rationalia doesn’t do free speech. They do irresponsible and hurtful speech, typical of those who aren’t full integrated into mature and reasonably polite society.
These people are not skeptics, nor are they rationalists. Reality – it’s this whole thing. It exists, and if your worldview doesn’t correspond with it, the problem is with you, not reality, nor with those pointing it out.
If there were as much evidence for the existence of Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster as there is for rape culture – and its harms – one would be forced to conclude that they do in fact exist – and take steps to ameliorate those harms.
Really, this should be about as credible in the “skeptic” community as global warming denial.
He’s a minor if I’m not mistaken
anyhow, we already know that RatSkep is infested with vile sexists. see comment #8 on the 1st page of comments in this thread.
Still no conclusive physical evidence for your imaginary deity lyin’ Lion…
Pappa @ 222: Dude, you could have saved a lot of keystrokes, and made a marginally better impression, if, instead of that lengthy self-serving whine, you’d simply said, “I’m sorry, I was wrong.”
I feel so out of the loop; I’ve never heard of Rational Skeptics before.
Also, WHO is a minor?
I just took a look at Slime Pit II. They’re up to 650 posts.
And now they’re demanding the PZ and others in various FTB forums apologize to Pappa.
I know I shouldn’t but I can’t help myself — what wieners!
For people who advocate having thick skins, they sure have bible-paper thin skins themselves.
Who is Lion IRC?
(the old Dungeon is still in the ether)
he’s not, but that’s not relevant. If it’s true that someone on RatSkep is saying Bieber should be raped, then that someone(and their defenders) are responsible for maintaining, supporting, and propagating rape culture.
what’s your fucking point, Irksome Lion?
subject-verb agreement, how does it work?
uber-persistent, boring, vacuous Christian. Apparently been pringing up the same arguments with atheists since usenet days (I believe bastionofsass was the one who has had to deal with him all the way back then)
I also am going to go on record as saying I don’t think rape jokes involving Bieber or any man are acceptable.
Jadehawk, Lion has not been banned on this site(yet). I think he is just intelligent enough to know his limits.
But still fucking stupid enough to think that rape fantasies from an other site can be tied in here and in the process, show how we are complicit.
For all of the new people, Lion is a smug little christianist. Play with him, he is toothless. But do not expect much.
fucking clowns. I will not apologize for making people uncomfortable about their support for rape culture.
Jadehawk, that is because you are
*snort*
Do they say what it is PZ should apologize for?
I’m genuinely curious about whether they’ve managed to even formulate their objection.
oh yeah? well, it’s my sacred to be annoying and to make rape culture supporters uncomfortable. so there.
Oh fuck you. All of you—Lion piece of shit, rationalia scumbags. Fuck you all. You filthy up every goddamn place on the Internet, you intimidate people for the sheer fun of it, and you delight in the suffering of others.
The world would be a much better place without you. Much.
Jadehawk, you are the wrong gender to have this sacred right of freedom of speech. You should just chill, girl.
(I am sorry. I had to do that.)
Oh, rationalia is now having trouble loading? Or is just me?
Justin Bieber rape with a barbwire dildo? Seriously? FFS do you think anyone here wants to see that sort of sick bullshit after everything thats been posted so far?
Jezus, I’ve forgotten how conscious dead these damned christians really are.
not just you. rationalia.com isn’t loading for me, either.
Is not just you.
Patricia, I still have not forgiven Lion for how he spoke to you a few years ago. I guess I cannot until Lion changes his ways.
I did say “an appalling thread”
Lion, you have a history with most of the old timers here. And most of here will not jump simply because you say so.
Go to sleep in a bed of decaying porcupines.
Still no conclusive physical evidence for your imaginary deity lyin’ lion. No courage to look at the lack of evidence. Typical presuppositional liar and bullshitter. You may as well leave until you can provide us with the equivalent of the eternally burning bush. Your word is considered the same as a manure pile.
Go die, Lion.
Hi exi5tentialist! I remember you from when I was still posting on Rationalia, but I think I left long before you did, so you may not remember me. I just kind of got busy and distracted, but it sounds like you had a very good reason for leaving.
As if….
I see what you did there.
Freethought?
You just ‘dissed’ a lot of free thinkers.
Looks like the Anonymous and Mysterious Vigilantes of Freethought Kharmic Justice have done away with rationalia, and more power to them!
Jadehawk:
Nor will I. It’s amazing just how little it takes for these idiots to start crying, when they yell “free speech!” over every fucked up thing they say. They only want that whole free speech business to work in one direction. Everyone else is supposed to shut up, especially the uppity bitches. Now I want a button that reads “Uppity, Annoying and Proud of It.”
Seriously? Hiding the thread wasn’t enough, now rationalia has to cloak the whole site?
Does that mean we win?
Can we make them sign a treaty and pay reparations to the allies?
Can we award Medals of Honor to the brave people here who bared their souls to try to educate those stupid fucks?
Or did their server crash from all the folks stopping by to see what assholes look like? Yeah, it was probably that.
I know this is too hard for your Christianist brain to understand, but tribalism like you practice it is not a hallmark of freethinking.
if we defended the rape culture supporting assholes just because we share some identity with them, then we wouldn’t be freethinkers.
go back to the wading pool, lion. you’re way in over your head here, and it’s obvious you can’t swim.
Lion IRC #446:
Fuck you. No one has the freedom to bully others.
me too! me too!
Josh #129:
There are not enough desks in the whole world for the headdesking this deserves.
(emphasis mine)
What a feeble attempt at a .
Guess what, you foolish flea-bitten feline; just because a person is a “freethinker” does not mean that I have to respect that person.
Smug little shitstain.
there are other possible explanations: coincidental technical difficulties, DDOS attack, whoever hosts the site/server shutting them down for contract violations, who knows.
Seriously. Please die. I mean that. I’m really eager for you and the bigots of your generation to take a dirt nap; it’s the most effective way for marginalized people to have one damned bit of breathing room without looking over their shoulders wondering who’s going to rape them, beat them, get them fired, and then gloat to the boss that “they had it coming.”
You can’t imagine the satisfaction I get watching your cohort succumb to attrition. Every one of you who dies is one fewer voter who can push through legislation legalizing forced pregnancy, consequence-free rape, and socially approved queer bashing.
Age early and often.
@Jadehawk
I was actually wondering if someone was laying on with the DDOS. That’s no fun. Just means people are being assholes to the assholes. Which isn’t quite right.
As I understand it, amnesty was/is extended to all not in the current (then-current) dungeon on FreeThoughtBlogs.
Nevertheless:
======
======
Lion, you’re remembered for having many negative qualities. You might want to make an effort to improve yourself.
Or not.
There’s also TZT, which is sort-of open thread. You can comment more freely there, but be warned: While PZ is more lenient about commenters in that thread, you can still get yourself banned if you ignore PZ’s warnings that you’re overdoing the stupidity/insipidity/godbotting there.
And Pappa wades in up to his neck @148.
Hello? Desks’r’Us? I’d like to place an order please.
Pappa: go read this, if you haven’t already. If that doesn’t speak to some lingering humanity and compassion within you, there is more wrong here than just your shitty sense of “humor”.
(comment #478, p.1 of this thread, by Erista (aka Eris), in case the link borks)
indeed. it would be a completely useless way to go about this issue, and it would actually give the clowns over there something real to complain about (I won’t go so far as to say it would give them the moral high-ground, since they defended pappa, while we’d neither defend nor encourage DDOS’ing them)
Would it be immoral to beat the everliving shit out of Pappa? Not for personal gratification or power or anything like that, just because he’s so annoying.
What? I’m only JOKING!! Except that making threats like this is illegal. So if it’s totally not cool to threaten to kick the shit out of someone for being annoying, even if they don’t actually mean it, why is it OK to threaten someone with rape?
Josh, Official SpokesGay
Which “generation” are you addressing?
Pappa: Then read Louis’ #73 on this page. Seriously, if you read nothing else on this thread, please read those two.
@Lion
I haven’t followed Pharyngula enough to have any memory of you, but I’m already bored.
Put some effort in to your trolling. You’re an embarrassment.
Eurosid, Lion has been doing this for years. It does not get any better.
Well then I fully support threatening to beat the crap out of misogynists and then laughing in their faces and then using the very same arguments they bring up here against them.
But only to illustrate how stupid said arguments are. I don’t actually condone violence. I was like totally joking. The violence is the funny part getit?
Voxrat, drown in a pool of your own vomit.
Obviously the fuckwits who are statistically more likely to be 60 or older. Fact. Not insult.
And don’t pull some wounded “but I’m not like that” shit with me. I already know what, as you should well know if you read what I said:
So really, don’t pull that weak shit with me. You know damned well it’s true that the older a person is in this country, the more likely they are to be a bigot. You also know that I recognize age is not diagnostic of bigotry, which is why I wrote, “the bigots of your generation,” and not “your generation.”
So just don’t.
PZ
I, for one, would have no problem if you simply disappeared voxrat’s comment.
And voxrat.
Voxrat: The voice of rats. Not very impressive to make up blatant lies… Like I could say that you were born with an unfortunate condition that makes every human who looks at your poor unfortunate visage run in sheer terror far far away. And that included your mother.
Now you’re forced to troll internet forums for any sort of attention you could get. And since you’ve never had any positive attention, negative attention is all you know.
Sad really…
Lying is fun!
Social justice progresses, sadly but truly, with the death of older generations that can’t wrap their mind around anything but their own selfish desires. That doesn’t mean that Old People Are Invariably Bigots ™. It does mean that that a higher proportion of older, wealthier, and influential citizens in that age bracket work to hold back social change. Every generation does it. My own generation is doing it right now with people 20 years younger.
We should all strive to be better than that, and not to take pride in being calcified ornery old fucks who stand in the way of progress. Some of us, like you, Chigau, do do better than that.
But please stop attaching your ego to your generational pals and getting pissy at me for pointing out obvious things.
Seconded. Deleting any comments that quote it would be welcome too, because that is some outrageous stupid.
. . . and then there’s the real assholes.
“just don’t” back at you.
I am not in “your country”.
The people in “my country” who are the worst offenders for religious bigotry are of your generation. Not mine.
Just before the site disappeared I noticed on of the members had expressed her dislike of the rape joke; got piled on for being “thin skinned” and consequently posted her disappointment in the response to her concerns and basically washed her hands of the place, saying she probably wouldn’t be back.
Now they are demanding that SHE apologize to PAPPA!
Amazing…
Pappa: You might also want to take note of Susanna’s #218, this page, and Katherine Lorraine’s #145 and #157.
Congratulations, dipshit.
That’s surprising. What part of the world is this?
I’m sorry to have seemed to impugn you (yeah, I know that sounds like a not-pology, but I really didn’t castigate an entire generation without qualification and it’s irritating that you won’t acknowledge that). Do you still believe I was indiscriminately labeling all people of a certain generation? Even after I pointed out the qualifications? If so, why? Honestly I don’t get it.
*smell of burning bridges*
Josh, go fuck yourself.
Shorter Pappa #222:
Desks’r’Us? Sorry, your last shipment, while numerous, was wholly insufficient structurally. Have you anything in say, steel?
Yikes. I don’t actually want to burn bridges with you:(
Oh, you think we didn’t see what you tried to do there? It’s called deflecting, you quivering pile of duck squirt.
Thanks for reminding me who this vacuous excuse for a True Christian is – Janine my queen.
I’m sorry to see that apparently none of the pilers-on have the fortitude to actually read this thread for comprehension.
Well, it’s probably for the best.
For what, exactly?
Just out of curiosity, do you recall what pappa posted there after his last post here @3:51pm CDT?
Josh
We are derailing.
TZT?
Sure, but I’ll probably have to be reminded because I’m fading. Not out of a desire to shirk my duty, but because I’m nodding off and it’s coming up on my bedtime:)
Dayum. My computer doesn’t even tell me what generation people commenting are from.
Is that a Safari thing?
I’m still interested to find out why the human beings posting at SkepChicks are so in the first place.
I say leave Voxrats comment up as an example of how slimepitters refute arguments and claims.
Oh for fucking fucks sake! Voxrats shitfestered comment on PZ and Skatje is so beyond the pale – it’s krakken time.
eltee #299: *hugs* and thanks for sharing. What happened to you was sickeningly awful, and I’m glad you found the courage to speak up here. You post just fine, no apology necessary. Poast moar.
Pappa: add that one to your required reading list. Your shitty “joke” didn’t occur in a vacuum.
I guess, maybe, if we lived in a world where rape didn’t happen, rape ‘jokes’ might be funny. Does ‘Pappa’ think we live in that world?
Jadehawk, #393, very slight nitpick if I may:
True. I would posit a third group, refugees fleeing oppression and violence, who probably should be considered involuntary immigrants. At least hear in Australia, that group is subjected to a fuckload of racist hate, part of which consists of characterizing them as voluntary immigrants who are gaming the system.
Hi, Pappa! So nice of you to drop by to defend the threats you made against me. Maybe your buddies know it’s not to be taken literally, but I don’t know you, and I’m one of the people about whom you make that sick excuse of a “joke.”
My contact information is plastered all over Skepchick. You name the time and the video chat platform. State your “dilemma” while looking right at me. You’re welcome to stand by your joke and defend your freedom of speech, but it’s hypocritical for you to do so while not letting me engage in mine.
Arse. That should be #398 in my #493 above. Also, s/hear/here.
494:
I call impersonator:
Actual Heina comment:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2012/07/23/would-it-be-immoral-to-rape-my-friends/#comment-100995
You would be incorrect. That’s Heina’s Facebook account.
And yes, I do know this for a fact.
466 voxrat:
No.
Find a sandtrap, and dig in deep.
Do not come back.
Flewellyn:
Oh whoops.
Sorry about that. Retract my claim.
That’s what I get for leaping to conclusions.
Voxrat– citation or GTFO!