Boys, close your eyes. This is Secret Knowledge.
(Episode CCCXLIII: Yay, Jamie Kilstein!)
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
Boys, close your eyes. This is Secret Knowledge.
(Episode CCCXLIII: Yay, Jamie Kilstein!)
Janine – Thanks for the song! I missed the okra lyric, dang it.
We are having some hog for the birthday BBQ.
that happened on December 16, 1773
Thomathy, Talisma’s stance is not an uncommon one within feminism, and her argument with Greta is a common one within feminism.
Rey:
Yep. Everyone should have a day like that.
Ammoknight! I remember that. I wasn’t commenting then. NG has restored the 13 comments on that post. They have little ‘report abuse’ links on each comment. http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/04/03/ammoknight/
If anyone remembers my experience at Chili’s a few weeks back, I got a response to my email (from the area director). I’m rather surprised.
Apologies were issued from the gentlemen. He said he had spoken to the general manager of that location, and that they’re taking ‘appropriate action’ with the team members involved. He also mentioned that passes would be sent to my home (likely free meals)*.
I can’t decide if I should follow up with the area director or not.
*I wanted to include ‘please do not send passes’ in my email, but there was no room. I wanted to differentiate this issue from the email complaints that are preposterous.
On what topics do I find her narrow-minded? Her topics dealing with porn and sex work. I was quite clear about that. Did you read the post I wrote? If you want a breakdown, go read the threads, people have done the work of explaining just how very fucking wrong she is already. I needn’t repeat it in detail here; I want to have a discussion about some particular things.
I’m well aware she writes about other topics. I’m not talking about the other topics she writes about. Is that not obvious? I’m addressing, specifically, her stance on porn and sex work. She is narrow-minded on those topics and, as I read, immensely naive.
There’s no doubt that her experience has given her particular insight into one aspect of porn and sex work, but her sweeping generalisations, outright lies and misrepresentations as well as her, perhaps not intentional and certainly unhelpful, exclusion of the experiences of non-stereotyped, cis-gendered heterosexuals all indicate naivete.
She talks, without caveat, about women as being a collective, about patriarchy without any indication that she has a deep, nuanced understanding and, worst of all for me, as though there exists a strict gender and gender performance binary.
I’m sure as I read more of her blog, I’ll discover stuff that I really do like, on these topics, however, she has earned my ire. I don’t think I’m the only one disgustedly enraged. Actually, I know I’m not.
And now I think you’re being disingenuous with your questions. Have you not read any of those posts, the threads or paid any attention to everything that’s happened in between her first gaff and now? How can you possibly ask me with any sincerity on what topics I find her narrow-minded or in what way I find her naive considering the comments made by others, which I believe you can infer from my post I agree with? You’ve wasted my time, haven’t you? That’s upsetting.
Tony’s Theme
Sorry, Tony. I am just in that mood today.
Oh wait. That wasn’t when I started reading Pharyngula. I started before Scienceblogs. I must remember that because I told Ursula about it or something. Hmm. Then I guess I don’t know how I found Pharyngula.
Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain, I realise that it’s a common argument, but I didn’t realise that it’s not an uncommon stance. Fringe, I could accept. It’s so bloody fucking wrong after all.
That’s the split ‘sex-negative’ faction of second wave feminism, if my memory of the history serves? That’s some scary stupid shit.
jamescasterlin and Tony, one thing that also occurred to me was that atheist “commentary” in the workplace could well be considered harassment. For the lulz, I dug up my (US) employer’s policy (as applicable here in the UK), which defines it as:
[my emphasis] … and goes on to note that it:
[their emphasis]
So (this is Tony):
… is rather borderline (“but their brains hear” vs. “feels to the recipient”), and (this is james):
… very likely (especially if done repeatedly!) crosses it. :-/
Thomathy:
For those who have been involved in that as commenters who participate here in TET, what’s your overall impression of the ‘discussion’ so far? Is it anywhere close to being resolved? And is anyone aware of Taslima giving over any ground on her stance to reason of any sort?
I’m pretty much of the same opinion you are about Taslima. I’ve tried three separate times to engage her with criticism, yet she doesn’t really have any substantial response (when she actually *does* respond)
To be honest, I see a lack of freethinking in her blogs. She educated on the topics she speaks on, but it’s a very narrow education. Her tendency to think her experiences translate into objective truths is massively aggravating. I really don’t see why she’s here at FtB.
For someone with likely a better explanation, Ms. Daisy might be one to ask.
Oh, I know. I just couldn’t resist the urge to bring it up. (Tea is something we Brits take terribly seriously.)
or maybe I missed Walton’s subtle humor.
Thomathy, it is a common stance and argument. And yes, it is connected to the sex-negative faction of the second wave, but that is not its only source, or its only connection.
Also, I’m going to point out that a lot – not all – of the rhetoric is not only not fringe within feminism (broadly defined) but in fact the dominant viewpoint.
Talisma’s view is, I agree, limited by where she’s lived and what she’s seen – she has never seen positive prostitution. Porn, in her experience is always about male domination of women. From that perspective, a demand for nuance is not only wrong, it is offensively wrong.
That doesn’t mean that Greta (et al) do not also have a point – but like I said, the two camps are more in agreement than they disagree.
ay-yep
Red Eyed And Blue>
Patricia:
I will plod through eventually.
I wasn’t raised in a strong religious household, so I’ve never read the Bible in its entirety. I started last year and took a break because it was tedious.
I’m fairly certain it had to do with Ursula Vernon though.
Shame that she seems to be caught in the children’s lit ghetto these days. I mean, I’m sure she writes/illustrates great kid books, but I always hate it when people say about artists with whimsical/nonoffensive styles that they should do kid stuff. No, I want to keep them to my grown-up self!
I suppose with some styles and subject matter, you can’t keep the damn kids away anyway. Like how all those clueless parents took their kids to see Watchmen.
Esteleth:
And yet, when I offered up gay porn, she remained silent.
Thanks, Tony. It’s my impression as well. Though, I don’t question her presence on FTB at all -yet. If her focus is narrow, that’s fine if her narrow focus is rational. I haven’t got a fully formed or informed opinion on that yet.
Oh, trust me, it’s Ms. Daisy’s opinion on the matter that I’m actually most interested in. Of course, I couldn’t be outright about that, so foot meets mouth. SallyStrange, I’m pretty sure, could add considerable insight. I’ll have to wait.
It’s a struggle to get through it all, too. This is months old in the making and new stuff is coming up along the way. I have lots of reading to do still, even though I’m mostly through Taslima’s blogging on that matter.
Happy Birthday, Patricia!
———————————
God I feel like a lazy slob. Slept late so have been waiting for the worst of the heat to pass so I can make up for the morning run. On the upside, homemade nachos topped with shredded chicken for lunch! Dinner is TBD.
cm:
I see what you mean (even though part of me is still shouting “but it’s all make believe”)
Red White And Blue
Fuck, I can’t find one of the present’s for #1 anymore.
It’s just the peppermints and the card, but fuck.
I remember handing the bag thinking “I should put it away” and that’s where the memory stops
Patricia
It’s not fair on #1 (OK, I think she won’t realize that my grandma is missing because grandma is old and sick and hardly leaves the house) and it’s not fair on grandma. :(
Good night everybody
Thomathy: Well, there are plenty of leading feminist scholars and activists – Catherine Mackinnon, for example – who share Taslima Nasreen’s negative view of porn and sex work. But of course it’s very much in dispute.
Relatedly, Aziza Ahmed’s article on the disagreements among feminists about sex work, and the consequences thereof for sex workers in the developing world, is well worth reading.
cm:
oops forgot to add…
I was trying to understand the mindset of a believer when they hear “I don’t believe in God”.
It feels like (to me) when believers hear that, what they really hear is “God is a fucking fairy tale”. I wasn’t arguing that anyone should *say* that, just that perhaps that is what a believer hears. I was trying to wrap my brain around how that could be offensive or could constitute harassment.
Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain, I’m distressed to hear that it’s the dominant view in mainstream feminism. I always thought that the feminism I was raised in was the most common, but then I’ve not only been surrounded by it my whole life, I have happened into communities where it is the norm -like here. Also, I’m gay. I think it’s probably impossible for me to agree with Taslima’s feminism.
As for where there’s more agreement than disagreement, I wish Taslima thought so. That’s not evident.
and I think we can expect nuance. I appreciate her experience, but that’s hardly an excuse for irrationality and ignorance. she’s educated and she’s certainly not stupid. Maybe it is offensive and I’m unfeeling, but that really gives me pause.
As for what Tony said, well, I can’t argue. I’ve read the exchanges. She flatly ignores valid perspectives that contradict her own. It’s one thing to have a pet theory but it’s another to continue to defend it in the face of plain contradiction. She can’t have it both ways, speaking, as she does, in sweeping generalities. I find that offensive.
Freedom’s just an other word for nothing left to lose.
Thomathy, I am not saying that sex-negativity is dominant. I am saying that the beliefs that create sex-negativity, i.e. an understanding of how prevalent violence against women, rape, etc., are dominant. The sex-positive feminists take the tack that all of that stuff is true, but that this doesn’t negate their arguments.
If you’re saying that being gay makes you incapable of not being a feminist, then, uh, I really have to disagree with you. If you’re saying that being raised to respect women makes you incapable of not being a feminist, then again, I must disagree with you. Because seriously, no.
*hums* Nothin’, and that’s all that Bobby left me.
Thanks, Walton. I’m afraid I may not be as well versed in this aspect of feminism as I ought to be. I knew it wasn’t all daisy’s and sunshine, but I just didn’t appreciate how much it wasn’t. I mean, I’ve been brought up on Margaret Atwood and Sue Johanson and my mother, and women like them. My education in the subject is informal and informed by, what I’m sadly learning, is rational, but not majority, among feminists.
Time for me to help with the truck loading. The hillbillies are headed for the Columbia River to BBQ, fly kites, set off legal in Washington fireworks, and play hillbilly music.
I get to open my gifts, of which half will be not suitable to open in the company of children or the religious. *smirk*
See y’ll later, happy spanking day!!!
Dammit! I missed it when porco dio got a banhammering!
Ok, never mind, I misread you.
Look, feminism is very broad. There are lots of strains in it. Talisma is of a large strain, and I think you are mistaken to assign her beliefs to stupidity or lack of education.
Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain, I appreciate your clarification.
Now, for clarification of my own. I’m not saying either of those things, thankfully. I mean exactly that I don’t think I could buy into the kind of feminism that Taslima buys into, the beliefs that lead to sex-negativity as you say, because I’m gay. And even that is a bit hyperbolic, because there must exist sex-negative gays (I mean, it’d be weird if there weren’t considering the state of beliefs about sex in general – yes, I realise that the world, largely, is not sex-positive and that I live in a very peculiar bubble). I try to refrain from hyperbole, but sometimes, without thinking, some things seem so absurd from my perspective that I glance into it. Like sex-negative gays. I’m not sorry, that is a very weird thought to me, to the point that it elicits laughter -and I know they must exist!
…Thomathy, do you even know what sex-negative feminism is about? Because you seem to be laboring under some misapprehensions on the topic.
Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain, wait, you’ve misread me again, then. I don’t think it’s lack of education or stupidity. I said I know she’s not either of those things and so I’m questioning what her excuse could possibly be. I’m inferring that she must be dogmatic, I suppose. I’m saying exactly that she isn’t stupid or lacks education.
(oh, and typing out my full nym is not really necessary. “Esteleth” works fine.)
Her “excuse,” is growing up in an intensely patriarchal society and seeing how bad it can actually get.
Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain, well, it’s obvious that I’m not being precise, isn’t it? As I’ve explained to Walton, I have lots to learn. So, no, I may not actually know exactly what it is. I’m probably using the term incorrectly when I ought to be using other language, but, really, I’m not academic when it comes to this.
*is seeking knowledge* …Hence my initial post. *smiles*
Oh, I copy and past your whole nym, Esteleth. Thanks for letting me know, though. I’m terribly afraid I’ll spell it wrong otherwise and it’s easy to grab the whole thing. I’ll amend my practice henceforth.
The beliefs and knowledge that feed into sex-negativity (and like I said, these beliefs are not controversial within feminism, only the interpretation of them with regards to sex is) are things about the nature of the patriarchy (that it largely exists to subordinate and control women) and that rape is a tool that the patriarchy uses to control women. A lot of sex – what is defined as sex, what is defined as neat-but-optional, what is taboo (and yes, this includes same-sex sexualities) – is also heavily regulated in order to emphasize the dominance of men.
That stuff is non-controversial within feminism. What is controversial within feminism is what to do with this knowledge and how to best dismantle this system.
Do we (1) work to destigmatize female pleasure and desires and work to create modes of expressing sexuality that are not predicated on female submission and lack of control, or do we (2) focus on denying the rights of men to women’s bodies and sexualities by stigmatizing it.
You’ll notice that the goal is the same. This is what I mean that the two camps are mostly in agreement. The disagreement is about the best way to work.
My own belief is that both methods are needed, simultaneously. Some disagree with this, saying that only one tack will work (for example, some people who advocate method (2) say that any attempt at providing non-woman hating methods of sexuality is premature so long as the patriarchy exists in any form), others say that both are necessary but our attention should be focused on one method or the other, and the other will naturally follow.
Expanding on this, some of the reasons that some people argue this is because of the differences in power between men and women in a patriarchal society as well as the disproportionate risk both physically and socially a woman is faced with during heterosexual intercourse. It’s not a matter of hating sex or men, but of finding this sort of interaction problematic because of the disparity in experiences. Implicit threat interferes with informed consent.
This viewpoint isn’t synonymous with “all heterosexual sex is rape”, but it has been mischaracterized as such.
@ Thomathy:
For your information: yes, I was being sincere in my question, and no, you weren’t as clear in your original post as you thought you were.
I also find disturbing too that you would jump to the worse possible conclusion about me so quickly!
Cicely, thanks for the hugs and chocolate.
Caine, I’m sorry to hear about the runt. :(
Happy birthday, Patricia!
Pelamun, it’s good to see you back.
Thomathy, yeah, Taslima Nasreen’s blog is awful. She’s got a very narrow kind of second-wave outlook, complete with femme-shaming. I’m embarrassed to say that I have not noticed how cis/heteronormative it is before, but you are correct in that it is.
I’m spending the Fourth lazing around, all the windows shut and blinds closed against the heat and humidity. Also burning some CDs for a road trip this weekend. Enjoy a little Hayes Carll: “If I ever find Jesus, I’m kicking his ass.”
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard that. My father used to spout that belief adamantly… until 12 years ago (almost to the day, in fact), when he was in an accident at work and ended up with a full-leg amputation (right leg, hip disarticulation). Once he finally came out from under all the drugs and was told about the amputation (and could process it intellectually), his attitude changed to “At least I’m alive.”
His struggles with learning to live after such a drastic injury have taught me a lot. I don’t let small workplace safety issues slide anymore; I regularly chew out people who leave things lying on the floor/don’t lower forklift forks/don’t clean up after themselves. I’ve seen, firsthand, how ignoring *small* safety rules can lead to devastating consequences. I don’t let people at work ignore access rules (no, you can’t block the handicap parking space with pallets; no, you can’t squeeze extra product in there and block the aisle). And I *most certainly* don’t allow my coworkers to make fun of people with disabilities anywhere near me. Not. Cool.
So many people need to realize that becoming disabled isn’t the end of your life. It means that you have to change how you do things, but it doesn’t mean you have to stop *living*. My father will never walk unaided (full leg amputation, partial amputation of muscle in left leg), but he *can walk* (prosthetics have come a looooong way; when he originally left the hospital, full-leg prosthetics were just becoming a reality). He can navigate stairs, drive a car, launch a boat–all with one leg. He and my mother (also disabled!) have flown to and toured Australia and New Zealand–after becoming disabled.
My parents are currently puttering around the (American) Southwest in their RV. So anyone who thinks people with disabilities *shouldn’t* be courted as an audience–or that trying to accommodate people with disabilities–is an ignorant fuck who needs to pull their head out of their ass.
/my 50 cents
July 4th is not a holiday over here, but if the business about the Higgs particle is confirmed it is certainly a cause for celebration.
In a couple of centuries, people may not know what USA was but they will know about the Higgs particle, rather like Greek drama surviving ancient Athens.
— — — — —
Some Swedish divers have found a big slab of unknown nature on the bottom of the Baltic. Naturally the nutters are going wild with speculation. Personally I would vote for a fossilized Cthonian.
This blogpost is so damn true that I frightened Morgan by cheering and shouting at my computer.
MisEla:
Ooooh, yes! This, so much.
It’s something that you also encounter in fiction, and it’s ruined some books for me, e.g. the classic sci-fi novel The Triffids, which shows one of the most awful examples of the disability-as-end-of-life meme you can find in literature. (Here, blindness.)
Would it be correct to argue that there are also sex-negative and sex-positive aspects of patriarchy?
Sex-negative =⇒ Vows of chastity for women & men are “good”; homosexuals should abstain rather than give into “depraved” desires, blah blah
Sex-positive =⇒ Family values; lots of sex within marriage, blah blah
Hm. There’s also stuff where I have no idea what the perspective is on sex, except that it’s weird and confused.
Sex-WTF? =⇒ Kids shouldn’t have sex-education; they should learn about it by watching farm animals mate.
So fucking true.
Whoops, I should have read the newest comments before commenting about Taslima. Thanks for the compliment, Tony (and I’m glad you got a good response from Chili’s).
Thomathy, I agree with Esteleth that Taslima’s opinions on feminism are shaped by her experience in a brutally patriarchal society. She likely does not pay attention to GLBT issues because she is straight and cissexual and, to some degree, she is a product of her society.
And, yeah, there are sex-negative gays. Anthony McCarthy, best known in these parts as an anti-atheist kook, also promotes the canard that anal sex is dangerous. And he’s gay.
Esteleth, Taslima’s background doesn’t excuse her from what I see as a willful refusal to consider that society can be much more complex along the lines of gender and sexuality than the one she grew up in.
Owlmirror, there’s nothing sex-positive about harnessing sex to marriage and reproduction. People who believe it should be so harnessed consider it an evil necessary to propagating the species.
Daisy:
Thank you. I think we get to consider ourselves lucky here, as the rest are very healthy indeed.
Daisy:
Motherfuckin’ truth. I’ve been told to my face, more than once, that I should never have been allowed to marry (because I’m childfree) by religious and non-religious people.
Sex=reproduction beliefs do a great deal of harm.
(OT)
“Government unveils plan for Muppet House of Lords” http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/government-unveils-plans-for-muppet-house-of-lords-2012062832243
You know, not to single out the US of A among the league of potentially forgotten countries, but this might actually be true…
Okay, maybe their other products are better, but I just tried Tofurky bratwursts, and they were…not good. The texture was like soggy cardboard, and the taste, like the spices, was just…odd. I think I should stick with Boca/Garden burgers for fake-meat products.
I discovered Pharyngula at about frackin’ cracker time. Maybe a little sooner, but it wouldn’t be much.
Oh, wait. Was Expelled earlier than Crackergate? If so, then thenabouts.
–
Happy birthday, Patricia! *cake* and *ice cream* and *booze*
Oh, and *fireworks*. Safer here than in meatspace, where the grass is Extra Crispy.
–
Ogvorbis:
We are in violent disagreement.
–
…and are completely uninterested in the collateral damage.
–
In my household, “I put it somewhere where it would be safe” has become synonymous with “It’s irretrievably lost”.
–
cicely, we are in violent agreement!
Happy birthday, Patricia.
((((Billy)))) and OurDeadSelves were both here when I started, so I’m “younger” than them.
http://gawker.com/5923363/chic-cest-la-vie-france-legalizes-gay-marriage-and-adoption
Woooooooooo!!
Caine: I completely missed it about the runt not making it. So sorry to hear. Was Esme upset?
——————————————-
Oh come on, rain if you’re gonna rain! Sheesh, enough with this on and off business. Leave the lightning out, though, I don’t think we need it.
——————————————-
Proper way to store a down blanket/comforter? Mine is currently sitting in a heap on a chair. I can’t help thinking that I’d feel less stifled in this heat if it weren’t taking up space in my room. Just looking at the damn thing makes me feel like I’m roasting.
——————————————–
Ah finally, a proper rain. Maybe it’ll cool things down a bit. And hey, no more fireworks! Ahhhh, so soothing…
Awe! *pinches cheek!*
‘Sfunny, I thought you were “older” than I am, chigau. *shrugs* The ol’ memory factory just ain’t what it used to be.
PTI:
Didn’t seem to be.
Happy birthday to Patricia. Oh, and happy birthday to me, as well.
Spent day with daughter eating pizza and watching The 7 Faces of Dr. Lao. A good day.
I’m 53 (!!!!!). It’s a prime number, which I choose to pretend means something. It’s also a 4n+1 prime, whereas my last prime birthday was a 4n-1. And that year kind of sucked. I’m hoping for a better.
Of course it’s also the birthday of the bestest country ever, Murka. Happy birthday! We all chipped in and bought you some more missiles and shit. Yay!
*reminded* Patricia, as an English, I am congenitally-prevented from wishing strangers a happy birthday. However, if there are any cake-crumbs left, good manners suggest one should chuck them in the direction of the Patrol™.
And retire, sharpish. ;)
It’s 98F outside, 83F inside and I choose today to do some canning.
Happy birthday, feralboy!
*sparklers and cake for the birthday peeps!*
feralboy:
I’m 54! Heh. All too soon to be 55 (late November). Happy Birthday, Feral Boy, I hope it’s a great one. :D
It’s been a brain-fog type of day today. I keep forgetting what I’m saying halfway through sentences, forgetting words like “paper towel,” forgetting what I’m supposed to be doing, not understanding what people are saying to me…
:(
Happy birthday, feralboy!
TET moves fast as always. I was eating yummy dinner food.
Esteleth, thanks for the concise summary. I can see where I was mistaken now in using or thinking about the term as I was.
Thanks, Ms. Daisy Cutter. That Anthony McCarthy guy is a piece of work. Ugh.
Irenedelse, I’m sorry to have drawn the conclusion I did. Of course, it was contingent on your answer. I apparently wasn’t clear for you, but I hope I provided the clarity you needed. Don’t be anymore disturbed at my negative cynicality than I was upset at the thought of your disingenuity. I forgot to give you the benefit of the doubt. I’ve been getting unhealthily cynical lately.
Way threadrupt and loving it.
I’m sorta meandering to get to Convergence tomorrow (never mind the parental whining). Lots of iron in the Iron Ranges, it seems.
And lots of open pits filled with water.
Thomathy: cynicism, not cynicality. ;)
</pedantry>
(Coyotes are natural cynics)
Happy Birthday feralboy.
I was 3×19 in April.
Thunk – are you exploring Minnesota’s Iron Range? Did you get to go to Soudan Underground Mine State Park? Did you see the MINOS neutrino detector?
Beach; Yes, yes, and no, respectively.
You’re right; I have no idea what I was thinking.
The closest to a “sex-positive” side of the patriarchy is the “whore” side; the one that PUAs want.
Sinfest.
John Morales, you know, I thought there was something strange about that word. Like when you spell ‘the’ and think, ‘Damn, but that’s a weird word, it can’t possibly be spelled that way!’ and so I passed it over. Besides, the rhyming seemed good.
RahXephon The original Tofurkey roast is actually pretty good. It’s not turkey, but it does the same job with plenty of gravy, potatoes, and stuffing. There are some good veggie sausages out there but I can’t think of any brand names off the top of my head and I don’t know what’s available in your area. Most of the Morningstar Farms mock meats are pretty good (the bbq riblet is almost indistinguishable from a McRib), but they tend more towards the junk food end of the spectrum. Yves veggie corn dogs and pepperoni fall in the same category. I mostly stick to tofu and tempeh though.
Thunk,
Well, at least you picked the right time of year to visit Minnesota. It gets a bit cool up there on the range in January.
Have a good time at Convergence. I’ve been giving some thought to checking it out, but can’t deal with the thought of thousands of people.
Beach; thanks. Just briefly hanging around there. South to the Twin Cities tomorrow morn.
Some of the less-than stellar Cracked articles:
http://www.cracked.com/article/111_8-insane-ways-parents-are-politically-brainwashing-children/
The balance fallacy; i.e. Camp Quest is as bad as rabid conservativism.
I think this is honestly one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard. Justicar claims Richard Dawkins was silenced “because his dear muslima post is gone.”
I told him that all of that post’s comments are gone because archived Pharyngula comments are down since NatGeo took over; PZ’s blogged about this multiple times.
His response?
Wow. So, it doesn’t matter why the comment isn’t there, just that it isn’t. Again: wow.
LOL.
RahXephon, yeah, it’s a shame they still haven’t restored comments over there.
(That’s an assumption, I haven’t bothered to even try checking for weeks now)
@Thunk
Cracked does that all the fuck time
Ing;
I do know that.
Can someone please point me to the post where PZ has talked about old Sb Pharyngula comments are broken? I can’t find it.
RahXephon: because J refuses to stop lying without evidence? Yeah, good luck with that.
I’ll say it myself. NatGeo’s script to import comments blew up when it tried to manage the millions of Pharyngula comments. They said they’d try to fix it and bring them in eventually, but I haven’t seen much progress.
I should probably nag them again, but not now … got a full weekend ahead of me.
Rah-engaging with the J is pointless. His goal is to perpetuate a narrative and factual contradiction is not going to change that. He’ll just move the goalposts.
Is there a backup of the actual post and comment database anywhere that you have access to?
Come to think of it, do you have a backup of your 2002-2005 blog posts+comments at pharyngula.org?
Bah, poopyhead.
Yes, it is about Justicar (Hi, Justicar! What’s up, buddy?).
We were talking about men not being allowed to speak, and he referenced Dear Muslima. I told him RD was never silenced and his comment still exists, and he thinks he’s cute because Dear Muslima (and all the old comments) aren’t showing up because the website’s busted.
And yes, Justi, I hope you’re reading this, because what you did was goalpost shift. We were talking about purposeful silencing. Not “silencing” six months or a year later because the website broke. That makes you a disingenuous piece of shit.
WAAAH! All my comments on Elevatorgate disappeared! PZ is silencing feminism!
In other news: water found to be wet; 3 comes after 2, and not before.
John:
I went looking today and I gotta wonder– is NatGeo using (or going to use) a naughty word filter*? Maybe we just broke it with all of our “fucks”. :p
*I’ve scanned through the most recent posts, but damn, there’s next to no comments there.
Somewhere on my lab computer I have the MySQL database backup for the original Pharyngula. It’s all Expression Engine stuff, though, & it would take a bit of tinkering to extract it.
I do not have a backup of the Sb stuff. The movable type backup utility never worked for me.. It would download an itty bitty fragment of Pharyngula and then claim to have done it all. I’m relying on natgeo to restore it.
No, there is no content filter on natgeo’s restore script. ERV made it through, after all.
Oh ugh. I really, really hope the Woman Problem discussion thread isn’t gone forever.
RahXephon #86: Someone over at Crommunist’s was defending the slimepit, and I noticed the same thing about them.
These people don’t treat logic like a way to make sense, they treat it like a hockey puck, They’re trying to score goals and stack up points, thinking that they can be “right” by amassing some amount of unanswered questions or unaccounted-for situations no matter how small and inane and repeatedly-answered they may be. And every single thing that we don’t answer — even if we’re just refusing to deal with it — counts as a goal for them.
How the fuck do we deal with that?
Went to fireworks. Was nice. Am now dissolving into bucket of sweat.
Have to go to work in 2 hours, and then again in in 8.
Fucking time course experiments.
*facepalm!* Quite right.
I had some good shit over there. Let’s hope NatGeo doesn’t fuck this up.
Apparently if someone cites a source to Justicar and it’s broken, he doesn’t ask why it’s not there. It’s just gone, and now it’s time to rant about how wrongity-wrong you are.
My SB Pharyngula backup is riddled with holes. Some posts are there, but eg not “Titanoboa”. I only have about 15 or so posts with comments (in .php format) for each month, don’t know what happened there.
RahXephon #106: As I said, scoring points not making sense.
…
The fuck is it with these guys and scoring?
Ah!
How to Import an ExpressionEngine Blog into WordPress
/just sayin’ is all.
Do you have a backup of freethoughtblogs/pharyngula posts and comments, BTW?
*Huge frowny face*
Can you get natgeo to provide you with such a backup/DB dump? It should fit on a DVD or two, at most. I think.
Actually, can they tell you how large the DB (and/or associated backups) are?
I blame the perverse html antics of certain regulars.
Oh my god. I got him to admit that the post is still there, it’s just not showing, but now he “doesn’t believe PZ”, and the Sb posts being gone, and PZ’s posts weeks ago about them disappearing, I guess were a ruse so “Dear Muslima” would go down the tubes.
Jesus Jones. I really should’ve listened to you all about him. I need a drink.
Did someone say . . . Titanoboa! . . . ?
Pfft, “Dear Muslima” was cited with extensive quoting lots of places, most notably Skepchick, back in 2011. It hasn’t even disappeared effectively.
Hehe, nice….
LOL.
I can’t even.
4th of July: I’ve never really gotten in to the whole Independence Day thing. My ancestors were Loyalists anyway.
@Giliell, Jadzia626:
Thanks for responding. I’ll read the recommended book as soon as I find it as well as the study.
@RahXephon #86
It’s not stupid. It’s a lie. He knows exactly what he’s doing.
Ya know, I pointed that out, but he said…
See, in the context of the conversation, I said Richard Dawkin’s post wasn’t deleted when it was relevant, i.e. soon after it was posted. No, it disappeared, what, a couple weeks ago, along with thousands (a million?) of other comments, so he wasn’t silenced.
But oops! He thought my claim was time-independent, meaning the post has to be there now and in perpetuity, otherwise I’m a liar. Guess it’s all my fault, like everything else!
By the way, heavy, heavy sarcasm in my last post.
(tangent) Best FTBullies tweet ever (IMHO):
See, I get it now. I made a claim that could actually be checked, and the source was broken. Justicar side-steps all that by making vague claims without citations that can’t even be researched (“PZ lies from time to time for whatever reasons”). How clever.
Shitbag.
People must have missed where I linked to the Ammoknight post @Sciblogs in ’06. (post #4 this page) There were only 13 comments, they were restored, but each one has a ‘report abuse’ link in it.
RahXephon #122, the only way to win is not to play. Even if it did work, he’d still try to find some other excuse to dismiss you.
These little “rules” are seemingly ad hoc creations. He’s not trying to make sense, he’s trying to score goals, and he also thinks he can set the rules of the game.
The most fucking infuriating part is the inability to tell if there’s any malice or not, or even if they actually believe this shit, because of the way they seemingly intentionally mutilate discussion and bully their opponents into a position that makes them look better.
@Setar
This is why I’m really hoping for that “Anatomy of a Pitizen” post that puts all these ideas together into a coherent profile of pitoethnography.
Does ‘for the lurkers’ even apply over Twitter? It’s pretty damn obvious that J’s not interested in the actual original post.
Wait, did I meant ethnography or ethology?
RahXephon, I’m hoping for the same damn thing. I spent close to five years watching a tiny few reasonable voices get drowned out by a slew of these pseudo-reasonable assholes backed up by a few people who got some things and thus looked somewhat smart.
I dealt with assholes just like that, who just…do everything they can to win, including declaring it unfair to not allow them to frame all the terms, viewpoints and rules for debate. Then I came here and found a community that was actually willing to not tolerate these assholes with their centrism and perpetually
soylentsilent majority.Lately, though, I’ve been noticing that assholes like these appear to be everywhere in public discourse. They call themselves “conservatives”, except for the ones who claim to be “independent” but always complain about liberals.
Reading the NYTimes, I found an analogy that made me laugh out loud:
Found here, eleventh paragraph.
There will be no brown M&Ms present in the Senate cloak room after passage of this bill.
ah..
Esteleth… lol.
Oh Rah. Well thank you for engaging anyway. I didn’t have it in me anymore. What a dishonest douchebiscuit.
…I’ve just been riding my bike around watching fireworks, and drinking rum. I’m a bit tipsy. :)
My niece’s birthday party was great, but, more importantly, Strange-Ex and I are on the mend. Is that really more important?
Also, Gina Torres is on “Suits.” That makes me want to watch it despite not knowing a damn thing about the series.
To start work on that post, I’ve identified a few issues:
1. Accusations of bad faith: I cited a source which he found to be broken. Now, if this happened between two honest people, one would say “Hey, your link is broken, what happened?” and the other would say “Oh, sorry. I forgot about the server change glitch.” and it would be accepted.
To the Pitizen, such a mistake is an indication of Skepticism Failure on the part of the claimant and (laudable) Hyperskepticism on their part: “they didn’t check their sources up to the minute the way I do, so they’re either incompetent or malicious.” Notice the projection: they assume others act the way they do, or even the way they claim they do. Making a mistake or a lack of hypervigilance is seen as unacceptable, and even admitting the mistake and explaining it doesn’t stop the Gloating Procedure.
2. Skepticism Failure/Hyperskepticism: For this post’s purposes, “Skepticism Failure” means not only lacking skepticism, but making mistakes, failing to check or cite sources whenever the Pitizen demands, and even citing sources the Pitizen doesn’t like.
Hyperskepticism means what it usually means: being overly demanding in evidence for even offhand or tangential claims, whether they make a difference to your argument or not. The purpose of such hyperskepticism is to appeal to your sense of honesty, waste your time, wear you down, and attempt to win the argument through technical faults rather than grappling with substantive points.
Pitizens in a discussion with a non-pitizen exist in a dichotomy of Skepticism Failure and Hyperskepticism, and this dichotomy shifts depending on who is making a claim. I made a claim that Justicar technically refuted; insisting I am incompetent and never do research, even for an off-handed claim, marks me as guilty of Skepticism Failure, and Justicar as Hyperskeptic since he “always checks his sources”, presumably even seconds before linking or referencing them, for any kind of claim.
However, when Justicar makes a claim, such as “PZ lies from time to time for whatever reasons”, he cites no sources nor even makes a claim that can be researched. Making a vague, unresearchable claim without sources allows him to accuse me of engaging in Hyperskepticism. After all, I’m asking him for evidence he claims he can’t provide.
3. Conspiracy theories: Pitizens claim to be rational above all else, but repeatedly show instances of logic failures reminiscent of conspiracy theorists.
In this case, Justicar went to Sb Pharyngula and saw Dear Muslima, along with all the other comments were gone. Rather than ask for clarification about why they’re gone, or consider any explanations for himself, he accuses PZ (via me) of purposefully erasing the comments, and any claims by PZ that the comment wipe had nothing to do with him are ignored because PZ “lies” and cannot be trusted.
These lies are never substantiated, nor is a motive even provided for the behavior; PZ lies “for whatever reasons”, indicating that the reasons aren’t considered or even matter to Justicar, it’s just the way things are. And again, the air of plausible deniability is maintained: he doesn’t say “PZ wanted all the comments deleted!”, he says “How do you know PZ didn’t want all the comments deleted? It’s possible? How can you know if all you have is PZ’s word? Why do you trust him?”
It is 1 am, and I am off to work.
And no, I do not work nights. I’m just going to work at 1 am, because SCIENCE.
What I’m trying to do in my post there is how I pictured a post about pitizen behavior can be organized: we can identify and explain specific behaviors and cite examples.
Happy birthday, feralboy. :)
–
Caine, I followed the link, and it is as you report…but the significance escaped me. Spell it out for me, maybe, using small words, and pictures?
–
Cicely, I hadn’t seen PZ’s post before I posted mine. My basic point was that it seems NG is serious about tone, with the ‘report abuse’ link in each comment. I don’t think they were prepared for the sheer amount of comments at Pharyngula, however.
My experience with sites that have ‘report’ links for every comment tend to be low level on the amount of comments, which makes importing/exporting the whole mess easier. Shorter words: I don’t think the NG people thought this through.
Aha; I see. Thank you!
–
Oh man, I am so tired. I should just pass out, but of course I don’t want to. I hate that! So I will stay up way too late, trying to read various blogs but really unable to focus.
SamStrange:
Also, Gina Torres is on “Suits.” That makes me want to watch it despite not knowing a damn thing about the series.
My first intro to Gina was S4 of Angel, when she played Jasmine. She played that goddess well and she had a definite ‘presence’.
New Ratlets Pic. Looks like Havelock is the daddy. Yay!
These new “efforts” by the government to encourage employment of young people with no work experience are such bullshit.
Employers hire a person with no work experience for a year, for training without employment. They don’t pay the person, but that year goes into work experience and person gets some peanuts (a bit less than 280$ a month) from the unemployment bureau.
So, suddenly, every asshole who needs an errand
boyperson(?) is into this. And it counts as “training” for some future employment. My ass.Also, I went over the rules and the person employed has no security. It sounds like someone was taking notes from the US system – no days off, even sick leave (it goes out of your “salary”, meager as it is), no upper limit for work hours, no rights at all since one is not really employed. It’s begging for abuse.
I have, of course, applied for one position where my profile fits. Like many others, I have no better choice. (And bastards haven’t even called me back)
Oh, and if one finds a real job while working that way, they have to pay back all the money the received, with interest (how high the interest? not mentioned anywhere)
Is this common in other European countries? I mean, maybe I have just lived a very sheltered life, but this whole thing looks very wrong.
I mean, I’m fairly privileged, in that I live with my parents and they can support me financially, but not everyone has that.
I guess this great opportunity is just for those who can afford it.
And either intentionally or unintentionally, it’s gaslighting…
The Government here in the UK keeps trying to introduce similar schemes, but I think the maximum time of any such scheme is 3 months. One scheme which was aimed at the under 25s has more or less collapsed because many of the companies that were taking part have withdrawn due to adverse publicity.
I think there is difference between a scheme there is a job at the end for those who’s performance is satisfactory and one that is said to be about giving the person experience with no promise of a job. Given the work being done on the UK scheme was stuff like shelf-stacking, the idea it is about experience and training is simply not credible.
I posted this one Twitter, but I think it should be reiterated: credibility should be inversely proportional to how many times one shouts “I’M BEING SILENCED!”
If you get to do it a lot in many venues, apparently you’re not being silenced! Perhaps we should change “I’M BEING SILENCED!” to “PEOPLE AREN’T AGREEING WITH ME AND MY GOOGLE DOC!!!”
Happy (belated) birthday, feralboy12, hope you had a good one! (cm’s changeable moniker, we don’t do that, really? Or does this only apply to proper Englishers, not rag-tag Brits of miscellaneous ancestry in general?)
Beatrice, ugh. Which country are you in again? (memory like a sieve, me)
Not read much
Very busy
Happy Birthday, #1!
beatrice
*hugs*
Well, they all fullfill two significant tasks:
A) give companies cheap labour
B) give the government a fig leaf
Ooh, and happy birthday to #1, Giliell! Cake! Confetti! Collations! Cuddles! (delivered by appropriate person, e.g. you :-) )
It seems like this has existed here for a while, but it has only recently started being widely implemented, so it’s still unclear how it’s going to work.
I’m not sure how much shelf-stacking there’s going to be, since the measure is mostly targeting people with master’s of bachelor’s degree, but nothing would surprise me. There seems to be an awful lot of ads which are pretty obviously searching for someone to do the errands for free, but are looking for people with master’s in economics or law. I’m sure some have good intentions, but I wish they were screened more thoroughly so that those that don’t can’t abuse the law and young people searching for work.
And no, there is no guarantee of future employment. It’s been made clear that the measure exists solely to give people that first year of work experience and after that they are on their own. But the next year, aren’t they going to just take on new trainees again?
I wouldn’t be so suspicious if the measure made it a bit clearer what the responsibilities of the employers were. It just made it clear that the employee has virtually no rights.
—-
opposablethumbs,
Croatia
RahXephon:
A rather context-limited heuristic, that, and hardly a general truth.
(Vague sweeping generalisations are not that useful)
Giliell,
Happy birthday to #1!
—-
I haven’t made that cake from yesterday yet, but I probably will during the weekend. It looks from the recipe like it should be delicious.
—
Since government itself is taking trainees, it’s also giving itself cheap labor. Not very surprisingly, ads looking for new government employees with experience have been scarce since they’ve started putting out ads for training. Not to mention that this payment is half of what government used to pay to new workers with degree and no experience. Saving money.
YouTube, Thunderfoot, New Fail.
That’s all I need to say.
Louis
Arrghh!! Stupid mergers!!
Trustwave acquired M86. M86 used to have this simply awesome Spam Statistics tracker that told which botnet was spitting out the most spam in a given week.
It’s gone. Trustwave deleted the page and it redirects to a portal. I NEEDED that stats tracker for work!
Argghh! Why do you delete the best things that a company does when you merge with them? Keep their awesome stuff please!
So, Louis, on you advice (?) I watched the first minute of the new video. I saw TF’s assertion that the more words like misogynist and bigots are used, the less persuasive the argument is. He used a graph, with no labels on the axes, no indication that this was actual data, it was just a meaningless graph-like picture, dressed up to look sciencey. WTF!!??!!! He used to decry this back in the day.
CAINE!
RATLETS!
TOO CUTE!
*DIES!*
Ok. This is the first time I’m watching a Thunderfoot’s video (probably the last too).
I had to pause at lynching, because the picture of a mob with torches and what might be pitchforks (I’m not sure about those, but there are shotguns there for sure) and caption Consensus: the old ways work the best is just too much.
It’s amazing how many things Mr. will find to do to delay doing what I asked him to do hoping that I will do it in the meantime. But since he’s working hard it’s just amusing, not frustrating :)
@echidna:
Here is a graph that clearly shows that my point is correct. It’s very sciency and whatnot. So therefore, I should be given accolades, cookies, and chocolates. Maybe an otter.
IOKITFDI (it’s OK if Thunderfoot does it)
Audley:
Hee. Oh, I’ve caved, they’ll all stay with us. I’m in love with them already, it would kill me to dump them for sale. I am so glad Havelock is the sire, he has a wonderful temperament.
Sili,
good news from France, but like the UK, I’d like to wait until it actually happens. We also need reforms/modification of the concept of parenthood to happen at the same time.
Beatrice,
I’m not aware of schemes where the beneficiary has to pay back the money. But there are of course a lot of schemes meant to push people to do work, even which is unsuitable for them.
Ms. Daisy Cutter,
thanks!
Yay ratlets! Looks like five or so would be mostly solid (black or brown, can’t tell yet) with the rest hooded, except for one that looks to be a solid lighter color? I wonder what that one will be? So exciting! (Yes I’m a rat geek, heh.)
I hope a few are brown-agouti hooded, I adore those.
TF doesn’t know what ‘freethought’ means either.
That ought to be something you have to know before being allowed to blog here, I’d think.
oh, yeah, and he was ‘lynched’
ffs
Pteryxx:
It is exciting! It all happens so fast.
*repeats mantra*
Never read youtube comments
Never read youtube comments
Never ever again read youtube comments
….
Also yay Havelock and (probably) sweet-tempered offspring. Esme’s extremely social and friendly too, IIRC.
Caine: I hesitate to be a bit of a wet blanket here, but you could change your mind about keeping them all. Sixteen adult rats, even mostly sweet-tempered ones, is an awful lot to socialize with and allow to free-range; not to mention if segregation fails even once before the mass spays, you could end up with *another* oops litter. I’d suggest not committing either way until the ratlets are running about and exploring in another couple of weeks. Just my 2c.
Pteryxx, don’t worry, I’m open to homing some of them if necessary. It will be 15, btw. I know people who have twice that number. It’s daunting, to be sure. We’ll see how it goes. If there is a fail, there will be a termination. This won’t be happening again.
*correction: FIFTEEN adult rats. mathing, I haz it! *rolleyes*
Caine: I trust you, thanks. I just err on the side of opening my yap.
Oh, and about this:
They won’t be running about and exploring until the mass spay. They’ll be kept in the Rat Condo, segregated of course, once they are 5 weeks. They will be able to come out, in groups for limited play in the studio (restricted area and all that), but otherwise, I’m afraid fairly strict control is going to be in place for a while.
Is TF decrying the lack of ‘academic freedom’ on an internet blog network?
because that seems a little unclear on the concept…
RahXephon, re slimer notions of integrity – have you been watching the Auspicious Beginning thread at Stephanie’s? This is Andrew on allowing commenters an edit function in their new Slyme forum:
…
…I’ve been on forums with comment editing and the software generally flags the comment as edited, by whom, and with a timestamp. I get the impression from the above comment that as dishonestly as this bunch plays, they EXPECT everyone else to be as dishonest as they are. I just don’t see comment editing as a huge ethical issue, at least not in any venue that *doesn’t* specialize in attacking people over any tiny good-faith error.
re ratlets:
…I just wrote in my calendar to keep a closer eye on TET in a month’s time so I don’t miss any news or pictures of the cuteness. <_<
NEW THREAD!