Comments

  1. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    The Sailor ungraciously refuses to acknowledge that I bring up science more often, even after he implied otherwise.

    The Sailor further implies that I have ever claimed philosophy was science; The Sailor is lying.

  4. Dhorvath, OM says

    Ah hell, I was talking about the video. I am not getting in the middle of that argument.

  6. A. R says

    I just found out how wonderful a cup of Earl Grey is for stress induced headaches. In other news, I’ve finally sourced a moderately good, inexpensive black Darjeeling.

  7. nms says

    In Canada when they taught us about the War of 1812, it was framed rather differently.

    I seem to remember something about our brave redcoats standing valiantly against the rampaging republican hordes.

    It strikes me that the War of 1812 was an incredibly silly one that is only at all interesting as an aspect of aboriginal history. Which is ignored, of course.

  9. says

    Dhorvath – “He does re-enactments and history days for educational purposes all the time. ”

    How awesome! My second favorite part of sailing on Lake Erie is the obelisk/museum on Middle Bass Island! Put In Bay is my <strike3rd 4th 5th one of my favorite ports in the world.
    ++++++++++++++++++
    Nutmeg, I just shed my socks, the 1st time since winter. (Not the same socks, silly, I just wear socks 24/7 cause my feetsies get chilled.)

  11. Dhorvath, OM says

    Sailor,
    I know, eh! He is always telling me about Metis Council this and battle of Fort Erie that. It’s great, every weekend from March through October and a good portion of the winter too. Oh, and he is the ship’s carpenter, so he is busy resurrecting a boat or two for this endeavour too.

  12. changeable moniker says

    @pelamun (and Ogvorbis): “it was the “forgotten war” because it didn’t end in a win, or maybe it was perceived as a Pyrrhic victory”

    By contrast, the upcoming bicentennial of the War of 1812 has barely penetrated the public consciousness. To give you the full sense of just how little it has penetrated, I was half way through writing my book about that war before it even occurred to me that there was a notable anniversary coming.

    Many wars have been called “the forgotten war.” The War of 1812 is more like the obliterated war. Or, the war chiefly remembered as the setup for one of Groucho Marx’s “Who was buried in Grant’s tomb?” joke questions. Or, to the slightly more erudite, the war best known for its major battle having been fought after it was over.

    Except …

    http://budiansky.blogspot.com/2011/01/why-1812.html

  13. robro says

    The War of 1812 is arguably the US’s first major war of imperialist expansion, excluding the on going Indian conflicts. Canada was seen by some as a natural extension of the US. The “legitimate” basis for starting the war…British impressment, trade restrictions, arming and supporting Native Americans, border disputes, etc…being somewhat up for interpretation. About as noble as any of the others, of course, and brought to us by James Madison, no less. A dark side to one of the pillars of the liberal, Democratic party mythos.

  14. changeable moniker says

    You are easily impressed. Stay away from harbors if the English need sailors.

    You’re the one pouring grog in USB ports. Just sayin’.

    —

    In the back of my newly-finished copy of Jon Ronson, The Psychopath Test, this: “Adam Curtis and Rebecca Watson were brilliantly clever sounding boards”. World gets smaller.

    —

    1. WTF are you all on?
    2. Can I have some?

    At that point? Hardy’s Crest Cabernet-Shiraz. There’s a bottle over there *points* *fetches glass*. Help yourself. ;)

    (To understand the later comments, stronger spirits will be required.)

  15. crowepps says

    This is just wonderful. They did a great job of reproducing Gaga’s video while at the same time hitting every highlight of the sufferage fight from forced feeding to Harry’s letter from his Mom.

  16. says

    are any pharyngulites plnning on going to the Women in Secularism conference? I need to know whether to schedule my trip to the East Coast around it or not.

    I also would like to know if any pharyngulites living between Boston and DC would like to meet up while I’m there (end of may or beginning of june, probably)…

  20. says

    robro, having another country stop your trade on the high seas and kidnap your citizens is one of the few good reasons to go to war.

    to all; As I recall, both countries declared victory and stopped fucking with each other. An excellent way to end a war.

    Now we’re 2 countries separated by a common language.

  22. changeable moniker says

    Stewing is also […] highly recommended

    Fricassee or ragout. It’s the only way to go.

  23. Ogvorbis: Now With 98% Less Intellectual Curiousity! says

    You’re the one pouring grog in USB ports. Just sayin’.

    Nay. I poured Scotch (single malt island Scotch, at that). Not grog.

    Now we’re 2 countries separated by a common language.

    But we do not have to be impressed by the English anymore!*

    * Would some one please laugh, or groan, at that pun so I don’t have to keep repeating it?

  24. A. R says

    All of this 1812 talk has me wondering if every war has to have a sequel. Think about it:

    1. All the English vs. French business (several hundred years of that)
    2. Revolutionary War – 1812
    3. WWI – WWII
    4. Gulf War I and II

  27. Rip Steakface says

    I actually saw another video in the same vein as the one in the OP done by another person in my history class last year. However, instead of Bad Romance and women’s suffrage, it was Bad Romance and the French Revolution.

    Since I severely dislike pop music, and the video wasn’t very funny (or as informative as I’d like), I didn’t end up really liking that day in class. Note that history is one of my favorite subjects and my history teacher last year was especially good.

  28. says

    Bought Exes and Ohs for a friend, for $8 on iTunes. Anyone seen it? What’s up with season 2?

    HHC sighting on Crommunist…

    The second area of disagreement seems to be over the question of leadership. We at the HCP do believe there is a role for professional leadership in the Humanist Community. This is not such a controversial idea: the AHA, AA, the CfI etc. all have professional, trained leaders. We think local Humanist Communities could benefit from paid, professional leadership, just like regional CfI offices do. We don’t think there is anything inherently “authoritarian” or “religious” about that – we simply think it is strategically wise to have dedicated, skillful leaders who want and can grow communities and our movement. Obviously such people would be employed by their community and have no ultimate authority over that community. But we think, as Humanist Communities grow, it will become necessary to train and hire leaders.

    I want to puke…

  29. cicely ("Intriguingly Odd") says

    But on another note, how in hell do you all keep up with these long threads??

    Open up a window for each thread that you’re interested in following, and set other screens to WordPad, as needed. Hit “Refresh” on the various threads as the circumstances of your day allow, composing responses in the WordPad screen/s. Copy&Paste where necessary.
    –
    –

    But we do not have to be impressed by the English anymore!*
    * Would some one please laugh, or groan, at that pun so I don’t have to keep repeating it?

    Rest assured that your punmanship has made an impression.
    :)
    –

  30. dianne says

    Just sent an ACLU sponsored letter to the gov of Kansas about the lie to patients and get away with it bill. My “personal message” added was a longer version of “If you pass this, your medical schools and hospitals will go down the tubes so fast we’ll hear the sucking noise on the eastern seaboard and no one from Kansas will ever get a job in medicine again.”

    The thing is, I’m not lying or bluffing. I wouldn’t and most people wouldn’t hire a doctor who they know has been trained to lie to patients and treat lying to patients as a good thing. In any other state, that’s a malpractice magnet. They’re out of their minds and setting themselves up to be a weird sort of science backwater.

    Of course, this is the state that tried to outlaw teaching of the big bang, so why am I surprised?

  31. says

    Canada remembers the War of 1812 (and the Fenian raids of the 1790s) for the land battles, which we won–Lyons Creek, Lundy’s Lane, Stoney Creek, and so on. The U.S. remembers them for their exploits in massing together small fleets of ships to chase lone British ships on the Great Lakes. Except for the Nancy, of course, which put the Americans to rout and escaped to fight another day.

  32. says

    You know, when Americans say that the border is a pesky nuisance, wouldn’t it be nice to do away with it and I suggest petitioning for admittance to the Dominion as the Province of Lower Saskatchewan, there’s always a long pause.

  33. dianne says

    petitioning for admittance to the Dominion as the Province of Lower Saskatchewan, there’s always a long pause.

    While the Americans try to think through whether they want to be known as Saskatchewans for the rest of their lives or while the Canadians try to think of a polite way to withdraw the offer without saying outright, “We don’t want you anymore”?

  38. carlie says

    I have to say, I’ve been sick all day from that stupid Georgia story; something about it just tipped the balance, was the straw breaking the back, etc. But then I watched that video, and was surprised at how well it was done. Then I showed it to my son, who I know did women’s suffrage in school just a couple of months ago, and he sat there and told me all about it as he watched it, how this part refers to how the leader of the movement had gone on a hunger strike and gotten force-fed, and how the guys voting on it wore red or yellow flowers on whether they were for it or against it, and how the guy was about to change his vote because of the note from his mother… he was all excited telling me all the parts he recognized and what it all meant. Faith in humanity restored.

  39. Dhorvath, OM says

    Sailor,
    That whole pretend to be hip so we can proselytize schtick is wretched, I often think that any school presentation should be vetted and derailed if it deviates from the agreed script.

  40. Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferret says

    So, I finally read to the end of the Kent Hovind thread. I was so excited!

    And then it ENDED.

    WHAT.

    In other news, Morgan has found new toy (yes, that is exactly what it looks like). I am perturbed.

  41. Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferret says

    When I say “found,” I mean “dragged out of the hamper.”
    If I’d left it on the floor, I could understand.

  44. Dhorvath, OM says

    Oh, your Morgan black and white kitty looks just like mine about five years ago. Very cute.

  45. Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferret says

    Oh, what is your kitty’s name, Dhorvath?

    META: I just groked your ‘nym. All this time I was thinking that it is D-vor-hath, but it is D-hor-vath! o_O I made a spoonerism!

  46. says

    Dianne:

    “If you pass this, your medical schools and hospitals will go down the tubes so fast we’ll hear the sucking noise on the eastern seaboard and no one from Kansas will ever get a job in medicine again.”

    I realize I have become horrendously pessimistic about this shit, even in the face of so many women and male allies taking action (and I’ve taken action as well), but the response from fundies would simply be to set up more “medical” schools along the lines of Regent or Patrick Henry or Liberty “Universities.” No respectable hospital or medical practice would employ their “graduates,” but plenty of fundie ones would.

    Also, a friend of mine in the Wichita area would tell you that the noise you mention can already be heard on the Eastern seaboard, because Kansas actually sucks that hard.

  47. Dhorvath, OM says

    Esteleth,
    We have a Joey. Very similar looking to your kitty. No problem on the nym, if it was easy I would likely have tired of it sooner.

  48. Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferret says

    Does Joey pull stuff out of your laundry hampers and play with it, Dhorvath?
    I reckon many kitties do.
    My Morgan is 3. How old is Joey?

  49. says

    Esteleth, is Morgan disembowelling a towel?

    My cats sometimes have epic battles with scatter rugs, especially if I have sprinkled catnip under them. They also pull themselves madly along the foot of the bed, on the floor, on their backs.

  50. dianne says

    Also, a friend of mine in the Wichita area would tell you that the noise you mention can already be heard on the Eastern seaboard, because Kansas actually sucks that hard.

    Oh, that’s Kansas? I’d always assumed it was Oklahoma (which apparently has already passed a similar law.)

  51. says

    I’d always assumed it was Oklahoma (which apparently has already passed a similar law.)

    There’s 9 of them already. And in Arizona a similar bill has passed their Senate and is going to the House next.

  52. Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferret says

    Markita, that is one of my ladylump holders.

    Morgan crawls upside down under my bed as well. She’s yet to get inside the box spring, but I think it is only a matter of time.

  54. Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferret says

    Rorschach, the AZ law is worse than that. It allows doctors to lie to women about the presence of fetal defects.

  55. dianne says

    @51: So…how’s the weather and the abortion legislation in Australia anyway? Not, to be honest, that I’d hire a physician from the US at this point…never know what they’ve been taught.

  56. janine says

    Rorschach, the AZ law is worse than that. It allows doctors to lie to women about the presence of fetal defects.

    Because the big sky daddy would not put a women through a situation that she cannot handle.

  57. Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferret says

    Right, Janine.

    And heaven forbid a woman decide that no, carrying a fetus with anencephaly to to term is not for her.

    Damn sluts! How long they have unprotected sex with their own husbands in an effort to get pregnant and then learn – heartbreakingly – that their wanted child is not to be?

    Better that they receive that grief at full term when they watch their child die (or miscarry, or have a stillbirth), like GAWD intended!

  58. says

    It allows doctors to lie to women about the presence of fetal defects.

    Well, I read the pdf of the bill. It allows doctors and for example ultrasonographers to lie if they think the information would make it more likely for the woman to decide to have an abortion.

  59. Nutmeg says

    It allows doctors to lie to women

    I really can’t leave Canada to do my Ph.D., can I? Everywhere but the US is too far away, and every week I hear something new about some new batch of states that makes me never want to live there. I should probably start making a spreadsheet.

  60. dianne says

    And heaven forbid a woman decide that no, carrying a fetus with anencephaly to to term is not for her.

    You know what anencephalic infants are called after birth, right? Potential organ donors. They are considered legally and effectively stillborn because of their lack of functional brain. Sacred little whatsit in the uterus, recyclable cadaver outside. How can this not be about hatred of women?

  61. Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferret says

    How can this not be about hatred of women?

    Easy!
    Since the only purpose and value of women is babymaking, any person who denies this and helps women to do something other than make babies, then that person (and the something else) are in denial of women’s true function.
    They hate women’s true function, which means they hate women.

    /insane troll logic

    I need a drink.

  62. A. R says

    dianne: As a person with a fundie friend or two, they see it as serving their God. Of course, that god is a misogynistic spleenweasel.

  63. says

    Open up a window for each thread that you’re interested in following, and set other screens to WordPad, as needed. Hit “Refresh” on the various threads as the circumstances of your day allow, composing responses in the WordPad screen/s. Copy&Paste where necessary.

    Thank you, Cicely!

  64. A. R says

    Esteleth:

    I need a drink.

    Tea? If so, go with a post-fermented tea, very relaxing and de-trolldirectedangerifying.

    Otherwise, go straight to absinthe or Scotch.

  65. says

    I have to say, I’ve been sick all day from that stupid Georgia story; something about it just tipped the balance, was the straw breaking the back, etc. But then I watched that video, and was surprised at how well it was done. Then I showed it to my son, who I know did women’s suffrage in school just a couple of months ago, and he sat there and told me all about it as he watched it, how this part refers to how the leader of the movement had gone on a hunger strike and gotten force-fed, and how the guys voting on it wore red or yellow flowers on whether they were for it or against it, and how the guy was about to change his vote because of the note from his mother… he was all excited telling me all the parts he recognized and what it all meant. Faith in humanity restored.

    …and another internet person’s day made as well! THanks!

  66. Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferret says

    No thanks, A.R. I’m going to down a nightcap and head to bed. It is late for me.

  67. says

    Since the only purpose and value of women is babymaking, any person who denies this and helps women to do something other than make babies, then that person (and the something else) are in denial of women’s true function.

    They hate women’s true function, which means they hate women.

    Well, there’s also the fact that suffering is preshus unto jeeeeeeezzzussssss. Meaning that the woman and her babby will be that much more welcome into Hebbun.

  69. Dhorvath, OM says

    Esteleth,
    If I catch you pre bedtime, Joey would have, but now he is old and stately. His favourite toy ever was a fine knitted sweater from Ireland my parents gave me.

  70. says

    Sigh

    ME3 has reminded me of the joys of multiplayer

    Completely ruins my fun being called a cunt for 40 minutes before being screamed at for being a dumb cunt and refused aid. But you know…if you’re going to then throw a tantrum about the Geth being too hard maybe you shouldn’t have called the player who can brainwash them into friendly units a cunt and let them die.

    Fuck people

  72. says

    Someone linked last thread to the Santorum cocktail.

    SHAVE THE BEST FOR LAST: The Santorum features chocolate shavings, representing, well, forget it.

    Pfft, I think the bartender should garnish it with a kernel of corn.

    On the same topic, Chris Hallquist seems enamored of ev-psy. Reginald Selkirk points out in the comments to Part 1:

    I should like to point out that the among the leading critics of Evo Psych are those with the best knowledge of biology and evolution. I am thinking of Jerry Coyne, PZ Myers and Larry Moran.

  73. says

    Hi Thread! I was getting way too cranky over what was clearly a miscommunication so I gave myself a timeout. Hugs to Pelamun & Ms Daisy Cutter!

    So, is Ariaflame here? I am going to Perth in May so surely drinkies must be an option. I have gmail and my nym there is cajela, and I’m also on the FB TET group.

  75. Part-Time Insomniac, Zombie Porcupine Nox Arcana Fan says

    Downloading Coralnie (relax, I’ll get the actual DVD as soon as possible, maybe even put it on my Wish List, if I can find an edition that’s not 3D.)

    *ping*

    Oh cool, it’s done!
    ——————————————–

    You know . . . all these crazy bills that are being pushed through are REALLY making me wonder if it’ll be safe to live in the US one day. I’m hoping CT will be the partypooper and say nay, but with the way things are going? Er, well . . .

    Spokesgay, is it super expensive to live in Vermont in general, or just depends on what part you go to?

  76. Dhorvath, OM says

    I quite enjoyed Coraline, both the feel and the fairy tale. A good combination.

  77. A. R says

    Ing: Yeah, I got the same feeling. No hard feelings.

    Ms. Daisy:

    Pfft, I think the bartender should garnish it with a kernel of corn.

    One sniny internet for you. Also, you owe me a tea-free keyboard.

  78. Part-Time Insomniac, Zombie Porcupine Nox Arcana Fan says

    Pfft, I think the bartender should garnish it with a kernel of corn.

    Ewwwww! Did not need that visual.
    ———————-

    I first saw Coraline when visiting my friend in Rochester, Dhorvath. So much fun, although the presence of so many buttons had me cringing by the end. I commented that the Belle Dame looked an awful lot like Teri Hatcher in real life – bear in mind that I haven’t paid attention to celeb news much for a while so I was going by the last pic of her I remembered seeing. My friend confirmed that yes, Belle Dame did look like her. Not what you want to hear before going to bed, heh.

  79. Pteryxx says

    random link: Anyone still read Scienceblogs? This is Astyk on draconian requirements for pet adoption.

    http://scienceblogs.com/casaubonsbook/2012/03/scenes_from_the_shelter.php

    We ran into some pet-rescue craziness after Rufus, our first working farmcollie died. We wanted a livestock guardian breed of dog, and ideally, we wanted to adopt a dog that needed a home. So we went looking on all the usual rescue sites – and found a deep and abiding prejudice against letting working dogs work – or even do the things that they are bred for.

    Our first attempt was with a young Maremma who had been used as a livestock guardian – that is, he was trained and brought up to live among sheep, and had a hard time adjusting to the 4×6 kennel he was now kept in – his previous territory had been measured in tens of acres. We approached the shelter about adopting him.

    Yes, we had a warm barn for him to sleep in at night. Yes, there would be plenty of human contact. Yes, he would be out with sheep and goats.

    No, we couldn’t have him. He has to be a house dog, and they didn’t want him to be with livestock. Why? Because then he wouldn’t be being socialized to humans – he was very anxious in a house with humans and they felt he needed to be there constantly. When I pointed out his entire genetics were designed to live in open spaces, and his youth had been spent among livestock in those spaces, that this was trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, they argued that he’d eventually be a perfect house pet – a 110lb, territorial guard dog would make a great living room ornament.

  83. theophontes 777 says

    @ pelamun #585 (previous)

    [Al Jazeera vs BBC] But are they so much better on religion

    In my experience, watching Al Jazeera, I have noticed they do promote muslim culture. I regard this as a feature and not a bug though as it brings a bit of balance to the equation. They are certainly not (to my mind) as pro-religion as the BBC. It is almost like the Beeb had a whole lot of (especially catholic) goddists shoved up it’s proverbial.

    @ Brogg #23

    But we do not have to be impressed by the English anymore!

    *groan*

  84. Menyambal -- damned dirty ape says

    David Marjanović,

    You posted some links to the Microraptor, back on the last Endless, along with a few corrections to the artwork. I’ve been thinking about what you said, from an aeronautics point of view, and I agree completely that the lower legs, feathers and all, should be pointed down at the ground.

    If the upper legs are carried pointing back, as would be the case right after a leaping start, with the feathered lower legs pointing downward, the lower legs would serve as vertical stabilizers and as rudders, both of which are needed for stable flight. (Stabilizers don’t move, rudders do move for steering.)

    Further, the leg motion to cause a turn in the air would be exactly the same as the motion used to turn on the ground. (To see what I mean, stand on one foot and use that foot to twist your body so you can look over a shoulder–your lower leg twists. If it had feathers and was behind you in the air, it would turn the you the same way. (If bird feet and legs don’t twist like that, my premise goes only partly out the window–it’s still a good passive stabilizer.))

    Modern birds use their tails to as rudders. To do so, they need to twist the tail from flat to vertical, then move it side-to-side. It is a complicated move, requiring many muscles. The tail of the Microraptor simply can’t do all that, and hasn’t the feathers it needs, but could easily evolve into it over time.

    In short, the Microraptor, with your corrections to the artwork, is exactly what I’d expect of a “training” bird. It’s ideal for a creature transitioning from ground to air.

    A lot of creationists like to ask, “What use is half a wing?” (And the truth is that there are many uses for half a wing.) A better question would be, “How can you fly without a highly developed tail?” Well, your version of Microraptor is how.

    So it isn’t just the fact that no modern birds hold their legs as shown, it’s the fact that no bird of any time could fly like that.

  86. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    I always figured the ‘flying squirrel’ pose reconstructions of microraptor looked thoroughly ridiculous. Almost like some of those hypothetical ‘bird ancestor’ things you see in old dinosaur books from before the days when Birds-as-dinosaurs became widely accepted.

  87. Ariaflame, BSc, BF, PhD says

    Hi Alethea, have emailed you.

    Is the FB Pharyngula TET the Pharyngula group?

  88. says

    It allows doctors and for example ultrasonographers to lie if they think the information would make it more likely for the woman to decide to have an abortion.

    “Nah, ma’m, you ain’t pregnant. Yeah, I know, looks mightily like a fetus but that’s just a smudge on the screen. Whatdaya mean it just moved. Hey lady, who’s the doc here?”
    Do they actually notice that such laws also make it less likely for fetuses to get treatment that would make their survival more likely and increase their quality of life if born?

  89. Woo_Monster says

    My cat won’t shut up D:

    He did the same thing last night. He just keeps screaming and there’s not much I can do to make him stop.

    You must appease your master. Fresh food, water, and litter. Then, you must smother hir in attention, brush hir, and build a new cat-house for hir.

  90. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    So!
    Since I apparently can’t do elementary arithmetic, I failed to realize I had a hugely important presentation tomorrow (I thought it was Friday)! I haven’t started preparing yet!
    Also, my German meeting (also hugely important) was five hours long instead of the expected-by-me two!
    Fuck!

  91. says

    FB PET is a sooper-sekrit hidden group. You have to message an admin for access, I think. Who are, umm, I forget. I’ll see what I can do over thataway.

  92. keenacat says

    Regarding evil misogynist bullshit laws:

    Massive lulz going on at facebook and I missed them. But here is a write-up:
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/03/13/1074013/-Hilarious-VA-Right-Wingnut-Sen-Ryan-McDougle-Gets-a-Taste-of-His-Own-Transvaginal-Medicine-

    I wish it would be plain lulz and not sullied by the fact that actual assholes get actual bills passed that actually hurt women.

    On a unrelated note, the hairdresser did magical things to my curls today, I got a complimentary tall Caffé Latte a the evil coffeeplace with a S and my little sister is touring New Zealand with her best friend and being massively relaxed and happy, which in turn makes me super happy.
    Also, tonight is another radiology webinar to prepare me for my exams and I’m so looking forward I can barely contain myself. After 2 1/2 months of plain ole reading and online exercises an actual lecture with a lecturer talking is a treat.

  93. Therrin says

    But on another note, how in hell do you all keep up with these long threads??

    I dedicate one browser window to Pharyngula tabs, and periodically do a refresh all tabs. When a thread doesn’t get a response for a day or two, I close it. I’ve tried a few different methods, this one has so far worked the best for me.

    Note that clicking the the (date/)timestamp on a post will make it easier to keep track where you are.

    (Writing replies in a different program is also a must.)
    —
    The book Coraline was excellent, movie is on my list. Here’s a lesser known work of Gaiman, at least I haven’t heard it mentioned very often.

  95. says

    Up to episode 15 of the BBT season 4. Way to spend a day. The day was of course doomed ever since I got up at 7am to have beers with watching the football. Never mind any ideas of productivity. Ive got season 3 ready to go, too.

  96. Gen Fury, Still Desolate and Deviant #1 says

    Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferret
    LOL, your Morgan is just adorable! And clearly of the feline persuasion. We have a little girl cat, Isis (or Kitty, as she’s more used to being called) She’s just over a year old and she’ll play with *anything*. Including the older lady cat, who is a Siamese and elderly and wants the playful young kitten to just get the eff off her lawn, already. So then her tail starts twitching in irritation at the youngun’s antics and boy, that twitching tail! MUST ATTACK AND POUNCE NAO, apparently. Kitty can’t resist it and gets smacked every time.

    Cats are so awesomely entertaining.

    ***

    Niel Gaiman
    Fuck yeah. Love him to bits. Not always crazy about his books (Neverwhere was kind of meh for me, sadly), but love his graphic novels and I’ve always experienced him as very feminist. There was something last year with the concert tour he was doing with Amanda Palmer and he said something really, really profound and feminist and I was like FUCK YEAH! But of course now I have no clue what he said or what it was about, other than that it was a tweet. So there goes precious minutes you’ll never get back, I guess.

    ***

    Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), 90
    Good luck and don’t burn out!

    ***

    Keenacat, 92
    Thank you for that. It was ORSUM, and I agree with you that it would have been so much funnier if this wasn’t a real thing.

    ***

    Older Stuffe
    Ing, I am so happy that your grandmother won her case, thanks for updating us.
    Starstuff, many congrats on your superior grafts!

  97. says

    My cat is a total asshole. He was in bed next to me until I was about to fall asleep. That’s when he left the room and started meowing again.

    If he’s not in the bedroom, he’s meowing. If he is in the bedroom, he’s playing in the damned vertical blinds. I think he’s getting revenge on us for giving him a bath last week.

  98. A. R says

    It’s supposed to be 73 F here today. But only 37 right now. I am debating between winter and summer weight worsteds.

  99. birgerjohansson says

    Re. comment 72:
    Does “The Santorum” depict a schlong or depict body waste?

    -Have you had an opportunity to view Jupiter and Venus in close (apparent) proximity?

  101. says

    Some news:

    NAACP chairman in Geneva, protesting voter registration laws in the US at the UN. Good to raise awareness internationally, but not sure how much it’ll help domestically. Question: could those laws fall under the purview of the DOJ? IIRC, several southern states are still under observation as per the Civil Rights Act.

    Child abuse case in the German Lutheran church: Church musician, instantly fired after the accusations became known. The Lutheran Church has had problems with insufficiently investigating such accusations in the past (the first female bishop the German Lutheran Church ever had did resign over such an issue), but it seems they have learnt from past mistakes, unlike *cough, cough* their competition. (Also I’ve never heard of bishops from the competition resigning over the fact that they did not act on such allegations)

  102. Ogvorbis: Now With 98% Less Intellectual Curiousity! says

    But on another note, how in hell do you all keep up with these long threads??

    I open each thread I am following as a separate tab and keep the Pharyngula home page up but scrolled down so the recent comments show. I keep refreshing all the tabs and glance at the recent comments to see what is active, or where a troll has surfaced (sudden activity on an older thread is usually a good clue (even for the clueless like me)).

    Do they actually notice that such laws also make it less likely for fetuses to get treatment that would make their survival more likely and increase their quality of life if born?

    But that would cost more money. See, spending money on women who are doing what women are designed by gods to do is stupid. And, if the foetus could benefit from prenatal treatment, that would be spending money on a non-taxpayer (you know, a parasite?). If the pregnancy comes to term and a child is born with severe physical disabilities, then spending money on the baby would be wrong because it is already a sould for jeebus and it would cost money that could go to keeping rich white men alive longer.

    Damn but this whole anti-woman shit is getting me down.

    It’s supposed to be 73 F here today. But only 37 right now. I am debating between winter and summer weight worsteds.

    It was 39F when I drove to work this morning, heading for a high of about 60F. I love what this is doing to my heating bill, but, oh, shit, this is gonna be a bad summer — for the Northeast US, long term forcasts show above average temperatures and below average precipitation for the next six to nine months.

    On the positive side, though, Rita’s Italian Ice opened. I got a cherry gelati last night. Mmmm. Empty calories. Mmmm.

  103. says

    “FB PET is a sooper-sekrit hidden group. You have to message an admin for access, I think. Who are, umm, I forget. I’ll see what I can do over thataway.”

    I was around for the original Facebook TeT group – was it when PZ was in hospital? Unfortunately the only person that I can remember being an original member was Walton, and he’s scarcer than hen’s teeth. I ditched my Fecesbook account after the eleventy-hundredth privacy infraction otherwise I would check in and get you an invite.

    Speaking of changing communication alliances, I have changed my email and wanted to update that email address change here at FtB, but when I click the link in the FtB update email, I get this message:

    You attempted to access the “Freethought Blogs” dashboard, but you do not currently have privileges on this site. If you believe you should be able to access the “Freethought Blogs” dashboard, please contact your network administrator.

    I don’t have anything blocked on my Firefox regarding FtB or WordPress, so what the heck does a person have to do to get around this?

  104. says

    Also the big political news today in Germany: the minority government in the most populous state will ask for immediate elections as they cannot get a majority for their budget.

    Originally only Schleswig-Holstein was scheduled to go to the polls (and earlier than planned due to an unconstitutional voting law), now after the Saarland, Northrhine-Westphalia follows.

    Note to people not interested in the minutiae of German politics:

    It is widely expected that Merkel’s junior partner, the Liberal Democrats, will lose badly at all three. If this happens, it might destabilise her coalition, forcing her to call early elections or switch partners, i.e. the Social Democrats.

    Merkel’s leadership in EU has been shall we say mixed. A new government might change things (might, not will, nothing is certain in politics, unfortunately). The two big parties did show during the 2008 crisis that they could work together…

  105. says

    Originally only Schleswig-Holstein was scheduled to go to the polls this year (and earlier than planned due to an unconstitutional voting law), now after the Saarland, Northrhine-Westphalia follows.

    (Note: in Germany state and local elections are not synchronised with federal elections or with each other, they all follow different election cycles. Last year was the so-called “Super Election Year” because there were quite a number of state elections and local elections. This already led to a leadership change in the Lib Dem Party, but the new leadership has not made a big impression so far)

  106. carlie says

    But on another note, how in hell do you all keep up with these long threads??

    I don’t so well anymore. I sometimes do what was mentioned already – keep a tab open and refresh whenever I get the chance, so I’m reading small chunks a few times a day. Otherwise I just go in and scroll back up to the time stamp of the last time I was in and skim/read down from there. Too often lately it’s just been a matter of “eh, I’ll just pick up from here and get what I missed later”.

  107. dianne says

    Do they actually notice that such laws also make it less likely for fetuses to get treatment that would make their survival more likely and increase their quality of life if born?

    The question is “Do they care?” The answer is “no, not even a little”. It’s pretty clear that the “pro-life” movement is not about saving lives, not even if you believe the argument that fetuses/embryos/zygotes are the equivalent of babies. Offer a pro-lifer the opportunity to save babies’ lives by, say, having a government funded prenatal program for poor women, and most will run screaming.

  108. dianne says

    There seems to be santorum spreading all over the south. Funny, I thought they had laws against that sort of thing.

  109. says

    Thank you Therrin, Ogvorbis and Carlie – I’ll do those things and I’m sure with practice I’ll soon be able to keep up!

    60 here in the upper midwest at 8:30 AM going for a high of 78!! I may get out in the garden today! This is thrilling!

    There is nothing like a bit of sunshine, fresh air and earth damp and still cold from winter to help ease the stress of recent political shenanigans!

  110. ChasCPeterson says

    those with the best knowledge of biology and evolution. I am thinking of Jerry Coyne, PZ Myers and Larry Moran.

    lol.
    Nope, no agenda in that list.
    Did youi know that there’s a Real World that exists outside of the blogosphere? It’s true!

  111. Dhorvath, OM says

    McCthulu,
    I don’t quite understand how you are trying to change your email address, for me I click on my nym directly above the comment box I am typing into right now. Then click on profile on the side tab and a field for email is in the middle of the screen somewhere. I do remember getting the notification that you mention when I tried something else a while back, but have forgotten how that played out.

  112. Dhorvath, OM says

    niftyatheist,
    I see that others have given you some good advice. My netbook was never all that comfortable with multiple tabs here so I would just use the history function to periodically surf the FtB pages I had opened most recently, say in the past day or so, and gradually end up with a list of familiar titles. As for keeping up, I never really keep up, at most I am on top of one long thread and TET on any given day, lately even that has not been the case (although I seem to be finding a new balance.)

  113. onion girl, OM; social workers do it with paperwork says

    (dear Horde, please forgive me for posting this frequently, I want to make sure I get everyone!)

    If you are going to the REASON RALLY, and have not already filled out the poll please go here to do so; we’re starting to finalize plans for the meet-up and I need to get an idea of numbers to make reservations.

    Email me with questions!

    ps: The Facebook PET group (Pharyngula Endless Thread) moderators are me, mattir, Katrina & Audley Darkheart.

  114. says

    Hugs back atcha, Alethea.

    A.R:

    Also, you owe me a tea-free keyboard.

    /gets out keyboard-shaped stamp, adds yet another stamp to side of desk

    Pteryxx, there’s no doubt that some animal rescuers are unrealistic, overtly misanthropic, and therefore not doing the best they possibly can by their charges. That said, they see a lot of awful shit done to animals by people, and they have no idea whether any person who walks in will be a savior or a torturer. Literally.

    I wish the prevailing sentiment in the U.S. were that a cat, dog, or other pet were not just something you get for your own amusement and discard when you’re tired of it, but a member of the household who should not be given away or put down except under the most dire of circumstances. If the circumstances can be ameliorated by some training or some attention to the pet’s needs, they’re not “dire.”

    As for keeping up with TET and other long threads, it really depends on how busy I am. When I was unemployed, I could keep up. If it’s slow as shit at work, I can keep up. But there are also times of threadrupcy.

  116. chigau (√-1) says

    Back in the old days my morning curiosities would have had almost every volume of the encyclopedia open.
    Now it’s just 17 open tabs.

  117. itto says

    A. R:
    A few days ago, you were asking about elderflower cordial. Just dug out my recipe, and I hope it helps.

    30 Elderflower heads
    2 Lemons
    2 oz Citric Acid
    70 oz White Sugar
    50 fl oz boiling water

    Put elderflower heads into a large bowl (I use a large enamel cake tin with lid). Don’t wash the elderflowers.
    Slice lemons thinly, add to bowl along with citric acid and sugar.
    Pour the boiling water over everything, and stir to dissolve the sugar.
    Cover to keep bugs out, and leave for 5 days, stirring daily.
    The citric acid should make sure all the sugar is completely dissolved by then.
    Put a double layer of muslin over another large bowl and strain the liquid through. Pour into a screwtop bottle.
    Keeps refrigerated for 3 months. Keeps even longer if you freeze it. A squeeze of fresh lemon juice perks it up nicely.
    Dilute to taste. Great with gin!

  118. A. R says

    itto: Thanks! I was indeed planning on using it to replace the tonic water in a Gin and Tonic. It’s also quite good with Champagne.

  119. A. R says

    Found this cocktail recipe:

    Ingredients:

    3 oz Champagne
    2 oz elderflower cordial
    club soda or soda water
    lemon twist for garnish

    Preparation:

    Pour cordial and Champagne over ice in a chilled glass.
    Fill to top with club soda, stir and garnish with a lemon twist or lime slice.

  121. magic pants, celestial slacker says

    Ms. Daisy Cutter: I wish the prevailing sentiment in the U.S. were that a cat, dog, or other pet were not just something you get for your own amusement and discard when you’re tired of it, but a member of the household who should not be given away or put down except under the most dire of circumstances. If the circumstances can be ameliorated by some training or some attention to the pet’s needs, they’re not “dire.”

    I couldn’t find the comment you were writing in response to, but I have a pet issue for which I could use some outside opinions. My neighbors have gone apeshit about barking in the neighborhood and have contacted the landlords of a few of us dog owners within a several-block radius. I have two catahoulas, Charles and Agnes, and must make them stay quiet while I’m at work all day. Charles is an avid fence-climber and is often running around the front yard when I come home. He is also an eager face-licker, which apparently doesn’t come across in a positive light to strangers passing by. What is the most humane thing to do to keep them happy and quiet within my backyard?

  123. says

    Magic Pants, I’ve never owned a dog, and I had to google on “catahoula,” so I wouldn’t be the one with the best advice. There seems to be a lot of material on Google about training your dogs not to bark, and presumably there is also material on training them not to jump on strangers. Again, though, I can’t vet (no pun intended) any particular source on canine training. Maybe ask the dog owners around here? I know there are a few.

  125. carlie says

    I’m a morning person, but an odd type of morning person; I like to get up early, but I have to ease myself into the day, so I’m not really capable of getting up and getting straight to work. Consequently, I’ve always had something to fill my “it takes me |—–this long—-| to become functional” time.

    What I used to do with that time was read the daily newspaper (I’m SO OLD). Then it shifted to frantically taking care of tiny people, and now it’s internet. So I try to get most of my thread-reading done then. At lunch I catch up a bit, and then in the evenings when I have free time and when I’m unwinding right before going to bed. I’ve been consciously trying to spend less time on the computer at home, though, (hi, family!) and at work I’m trying to cut down on my bad habit of running through all my tabs when I get bored for a minute or two. I’ve become horribly distractable over the last few years and it’s really bothering me.

  127. A. R says

    Magic Pants: I’ve found that is really depends on the demeanor of the dog. I have a Lab who never barks, a Springer Spaniel who I’ve tried and failed to train not to bark, and a King Charles Spaniel who I’ve trained not to bark.

  128. keenacat says

    Giliell,

    try to steam them first and then using them für bakery, that should take care of the issue (if you know you can eat them if cooked properly).

  129. says

    Dhorvath, thanks – I can see already that I will be lucky to be able to keep up with even one thread, too. I have a couple of tabs open now, but am in and out of the house, so we will see how that goes! If this horde would just stop being so damn interesting!!!

  131. says

    I’ve been consciously trying to spend less time on the computer at home, though, (hi, family!) and at work I’m trying to cut down on my bad habit of running through all my tabs when I get bored for a minute or two. I’ve become horribly distractable over the last few years and it’s really bothering me.

    Carlie, this is so like me – and yes, what is up with this increased distractibility? I have more trouble focusing now than ever before in my life! Could it be that after raising the small Nifty ones, the sudden quiet and relative inactivity make the brain start jumping? IDK, but it is annoying!

  132. cicely ("Intriguingly Odd") says

    Damn, but I’m really coming to hate the sound of Bruno Mars’ voice.
    –

    Q. Why doesn’t Texas fall into the Gulf of Mexico?
    A. Because Oklahoma sucks.

    Q. Why is it so windy in Oklahoma?
    A. Because Texas sucks, and Kansas blows.
    –

  133. Ariaflame, BSc, BF, PhD says

    I saw something about the email changing in a recent thread. Not sure which one now. Sorry. Something about the setup being tricky and you might have to manually insert a /user/ in the URL.

    I await word from the moderators of the supersekritgroup.

  134. says

    I stayed home from work today because my apartment is a fucking mess and I couldn’t stand it anymore. And now I can’t breathe cause I dusted myself – ick….

    But my apartment is mostly clean now, except for some clothes on the floor which will be remedied shortly since I’m running another load of laundry.

  135. magic pants, celestial slacker says

    Thanks for the responses. Unfortunately I had no choice but to buy “corrective” collars for my poor muppets. They didn’t wimper or whine and seemed to have learned right away. Charles also has to be tethered to the play structure in the middle of the yard. :(
    I’m going to have to give them even more bones, walks, and dog park trips to feel less like a monster. I don’t know how I’m going to hate my neighbors less.

  136. says

    Today at 5 there is a rally at our state capitol to convince the governor to veto the anti-sex ed/don’t say gay bill (also called HB 363). I’m fairly worried. Our governor had previously said he felt our “abstinence plus” system was working fine, but he’s hardly the type to stand up to the legislature on a conservative ideological issue.

  137. Tualha says

    Sigh. Woman being coerced, held down on a table, and force-fed, or force-medicated, can’t tell which.

    Trigger warning, PZ? Come on, you know better.

  142. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Magic Pants, I’ve never owned a dog, and I had to google on “catahoula,” so I wouldn’t be the one with the best advice. There seems to be a lot of material on Google about training your dogs not to bark, and presumably there is also material on training them not to jump on strangers. Again, though, I can’t vet (no pun intended) any particular source on canine training. Maybe ask the dog owners around here? I know there are a few.

    I have used two techniques to teach my dogs not to jump up on people.

    Technique one: When the dog jumps up on you, hold on to hir forepaws and waltz around the room for a while. At first the dog will think it’s some new game, then the dog will get a bit uncomfortable, and then they usually start mouthing your hand to try to get you to let go.

    Some people also knee the dog in the belly a bit when it jumps up, but I don’t like that. The animal is, after all, expressing his joy at seeing you.

    The basic point is to make jumping up uncomfortable for the dog.

    Technique two, which I used on the cattle dog: Teach them to do it on command! Then it becomes like an on-off switch almost.

    I realize most of these techniques are for preventing the dog from jumping up on YOU, and might not be too effective for what the dog does with other people.

    In my experience, the earlier your start training a dog, the better. For my cattle dog, it began the very instant I paid for her. I think she was about 8 weeks old. Right from when she was an adorable little puppy, I was teaching her ‘come’ ‘sit’ ‘stay’ ‘heel’ and ‘SQUIRRELS!’ I’m no expert, but I have a feeling that since I never let her get away with nonsense or tomfoolery with me right from the start, she’s never tried it on anyone else.

    BTW, to whoever has them: Catahoulas are gorgeous dogs, though I don’t think there are many where I live.

  143. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    One more thing: Don’t feel mean about training your dog up all hardcore. A thoroughly trained dog is a happier dog, because it’s a dog that knows what’s expected of it and knows what to expect in turn. The world makes more sense to a well-trained dog.

  147. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    a Mr. Gale comments:

    Why does the person who ‘hears’ the words get to decide?

    My dad was an amazing kind and accepting person. He never meet a person he didn’t like or wish the best for. Yet, my dad used the word ‘colored’ when he spoke of African-Americans until the day he died.

    If a young black male heard my dad say that word he may be offended, but does that mean my father meant to offend?

    If the intention of the speaker is to harm, then it doesn’t matter what words are used.

    It’s not what the ‘victim’ hears. It’s what the speaker meant.

    I respond

    No, Henry Gale, you’re obviously wrong about that. Luckily, it’s easy to see just where your error arises.

    You’re approaching communication as a matter of “how do I avoid being blamed?” And the least involved approach is to simply say whatever the fuck you please, and afterwards repeat ad nauseum that you meant no offense and the other person is to blame.

    But there is another possible approach, which takes as its baseline “how do I communicate to this other person that I respect their basic human dignity?” In this approach, you have to consider how to signal respect so that it is understood, and you have to admit the possibility that you are capable of making a mistake. Admitting the possibility of failure is scarier. But the benefits are worth it.

    I have this habit of speaking to mixed-gender groups as “you guys.” Occasionally a woman will explicitly object that “we’re not all guys.” Somewhat more often a woman will turn to another and repeat my phrasing in gentle mockery, with pointed emphasis on “guys.”

    At these moments I realize I am not effectively signaling respect — for the whole point of signaling is to have one’s signal understood — and if I continue with my usual address then I’m actually signaling a lack of respect, that I don’t even respect this person enough to address them as they’d prefer. If I don’t change my speech, then I can’t honestly blame the other person for inferring that I don’t respect them when I’m failing to signal respect.

    Your father, unless he was too senile, must have noticed the changing norms. If he was unwilling to change his behavior, then he was signaling that other people’s preferences did not matter to him. And in the example you give, that behavior was a little bit racist.

    Thoughts? From anyone who I haven’t called racist in the past week?

  149. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Pitbull: I can see the defense of the grandpa, because some old people genuinely ARE clueless: My grandmother, who I can assure you is not an intentional racist, ever, recently got in trouble with a native family for referring to their kid as a ‘cute little injun’. She honestly didn’t know any better. This is not to excuse what she said, because that kind of unintentional racism is both horrifying and embarassing, just to say that some old people genuinely don’t know any better.

    But I’m not about to defend what my grandmother said, it was absolutely cringe inducing and a complete faux-pas on her part. And I’m sure as fuck not about to use my grandmother’s faux-pas to justify that kind of lack of respect for people.

    My grandmother is a warm wonderful person who always tries to help the poor and needy, and I’m sure this guy’s dad was a good guy deep down too, but that still doesn’t make it alright.

  150. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    The Endless Thread topic is now “Flamingos”

    The bird is the word.

  151. says

    But I’ve also gotten into discussions in Germany with people who insisted on using Neger (“negro”) because that’s how they grew up with and they didn’t mean it in a bad way.

    So I would be on the side of “intent is not magic”

    Also, even if the father was unaware of it, why didn’t the poster confront him about it? It doesn’t sound like the poster didn’t know it was bad or was estranged from the father?

  152. says

    Honestly, I question whether the deference to Old People and their silly ways is actually ageism. It sometimes seems that we treat them as children or automatons unable to change opinions or actions. Sometimes it might be making excuses for someone’s actions, others it might be laziness and wanting to avoid having to try to explain something to someone we see as mentally feeble due to elderhood or generation gap, or a benign paternalism that we figure they’re old and can just be sheltered against negative input so they can enjoy their senior years.

  155. says

    I have an idea (bear with me here, this is rare)…

    Shit non-skeptics say to skeptics:

    “You’re a skeptic? I’m skeptical of that! LOLOLOL”
    [What they’re thinking: I’m so clever and funny!]
    [What I’m thinking: If I hear that lame “joke” one more time, I will break something!]

    “But my [insert relative/ friend here] has done it, and he/she says it worked for him/her!”
    [What they’re thinking: Ha! I got you with my anecdotal evidence!]
    [What I’m thinking: Anecdotes from relatives do not prove anything other than the fact that your relatives are probably just as gullible as most people.]

    “Science can’t explain everything! It can’t explain love!”
    [What they’re thinking: Spirituality is an important part of life! You can’t see it, but I feel it.]
    [What I’m thinking: Ow, my brain is trying to escape this conversation by beating itself against the side of my skull.]

    “You’re just too close minded.”
    [What they’re thinking: You should be more like me and believe what I read on a website this one time. I shared it on facebook and everything!]
    [What I’m thinking: And you’re so “open minded” that your brain has fallen out.]

    That was my idea.
    Any additions? Comments?

  156. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    He says nothing of cluelessness, though. I won’t assume that without some indication.

    (Checks thread.)

    A reply of no substance from the younger Gale:

    I took the time to write a nice reply furthering my point, but then I decided, why bother.

    Oh well.

  158. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Honestly, I question whether the deference to Old People and their silly ways is actually ageism. It sometimes seems that we treat them as children or automatons unable to change opinions or actions. Sometimes it might be making excuses for someone’s actions, others it might be laziness and wanting to avoid having to try to explain something to someone we see as mentally feeble due to elderhood or generation gap, or a benign paternalism that we figure they’re old and can just be sheltered against negative input so they can enjoy their senior years.

    WRT my grandmother, I’d tell her to her face that words like that generally don’t fly, I just never exactly got the chance. I’d do it in the most gentle of ways of course, but I’d still do it. I still might, if I can find an effective way to bring it up.

    I’m sorry if I gave the impression that I’m saying we should just ‘indulge’ the elderly and not tell them that shit like that isn’t acceptable anymore, and I guess I kinda did. What I mean is, a lot of the time is they honestly DON’T mean any harm.

    Intent is not magic, of course, and I have a feeling anyone who truly didn’t want to cause harm would probably appreciate being told that something they’re doing is causing unintentional harm.

  159. says

    @Pteryxx, I’m sincerely hopeful that since this move is vastly unpopular among Utah’s conservative parents* the governor may weigh that when deciding. I’m just too cynical to think it will give him enough reason to fight the legislature.

    * Utah’s current abstinence “centered” curriculum in opt-in only. All that conservative parents need to do to keep their kids ignorant is just not sign the permission slips. Yet more than 97% of Utah parents go through the trouble to opt their kids in ever year.

  160. says

    Ing of the who?

    You can’t expect to wield supreme executive power just ’cause some watery turtle lover lobbed invective at you!

  161. keenacat says

    My grandmother is a warm wonderful person who always tries to help the poor and needy, and I’m sure this guy’s dad was a good guy deep down too, but that still doesn’t make it alright.

    Also, a caring and kind person would not want to hurt other people and respond to a correction.
    I’m all for kindly explaining to a person if they are unintentionally overstepping boundaries, but then I consider the ball in the other persons field. And I’m not fond of making excuses for the elderly, since this is in itself ageist, making the assumption that an elderly person is unable to change their behaviour.
    I’ve had a massive fight just a few weeks ago when we (inhabitants of a medical student forum) were discussing how to approach patients who automatically assume every female person working on a ward is a nurse and every male person working on a ward is a doc. I was arguing that yes, this is sexist and we should kindly let a patient know when he is engaging in unacceptable behaviour like, well, sexism. Since, baring obvious obstacles like dementia, even a very old person needs to adapt to the fact that his caregivers sex has no bearing on his role anymore.
    Most patients react like a decent person would, by adapting the way they approach personnel on the wards – but some start being obnoxious.
    Female MDs hat patients demand that “the real doc” come in already, because a “Mädchen” (meaning a girl child) surely can’t be trusted with medicine.
    Some people were actually arguing we should just accept that and get a male MD. The fuck?
    Accomodation of -ist assholes needs to stop NOW.

  162. says

    life is like a pitbull with lipstick: I think you let him off too easy. Neither Gale nor his old man appear only “a little bit racist”. Loved your responses, btw. Right goddamn on.

  163. Pteryxx says

    I’m just too cynical to think it will give him enough reason to fight the legislature.

    …What really scared the fuck out of me when I researched the Phelps family (Westboro Baptist Church) was how they used threats of lawsuits and outing to control legislators and police. The WBC’s noisy and obvious, but I have to assume that a LOT of legislators and other public officials are supporting institutionalized misogyny because of direct pressure behind the scenes. How can we fight that, except by publicly showing the public’s disapproval to be a bigger threat?

  164. says

    I’m sorry if I gave the impression that I’m saying we should just ‘indulge’ the elderly and not tell them that shit like that isn’t acceptable anymore, and I guess I kinda did. What I mean is, a lot of the time is they honestly DON’T mean any harm.

    Intent is not magic, of course, and I have a feeling anyone who truly didn’t want to cause harm would probably appreciate being told that something they’re doing is causing unintentional harm.

    Oh no I’m just saying society itself may be influencing us through ageism either in dismissing the agency of the elderly, presuming their opinions and manners are now locked in, or patronizing them by avoiding unpleasantness for them.

  165. Owlmirror says

    Speaking of changing communication alliances, I have changed my email and wanted to update that email address change here at FtB, but when I click the link in the FtB update email, I get this message:

    You attempted to access the “Freethought Blogs” dashboard, but you do not currently have privileges on this site. If you believe you should be able to access the “Freethought Blogs” dashboard, please contact your network administrator.

    This came up just a few subthreads ago.

    I wrote:

    Yes, I think there’s a WordPress misconfiguration somewhere in FreeThoughtBlogs.
    I faintly remember seeing something like that myself. I think I manually edited the link.
    Did you get something like this?
      freethoughtblogs.com/wp-admin/profile.php?newuseremail=[a hex string]
    I think I may have changed that to:

      freethoughtblogs.com/wp-admin/user/profile.php?newuseremail=[a hex string]

    And later on, the original questioner responded:

    @owlmirror: Thanks a million – that worked perfectly. Problem solved.

    So I guess that missing “user/” is the problem, and the manual editing workaround works.

  166. Ogvorbis: Now With 98% Less Intellectual Curiousity! says

    The Endless Thread topic is now “Flamingos”

    Fantastic. Though I cannot dance the flamingo, or play it, I really enjoy flamingo-style guitar.

    Um also Flamingos agree with me.

    No, they don’t.

    You can’t expect to wield supreme executive power just ’cause some watery turtle lover lobbed invective at you!

    I wonder if Invective Lobbing is a competitive sport? I mean Crashed Ice is a sport, so why not?

    ====

    No, I really have nothing of substance to add. I just went through a two-hour conference call about redoing the agency website and it could have been done in 15 minutes. So I’ll lob humours at all of you.

  167. A. R says

    So I’ll lob humours at all of you

    What kind? Vitreous? Aqueous? Yellow Bile? Black Bile? Blood? Phlegm?

  168. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    Eh, I don’t feel like anything would likely have been gained by being meaner to him. That was approximately (just slightly harsher than) the level of confrontation that I have the best luck with in once-off encounters. Sometimes it works.

  170. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    OK, I got a sciency question about flamingos for the biologically inclined here:

    Ignoring everything except heads and skulls, just how convergent ARE flamingos and baleen whales, anyways?

  173. A. R says

    TLC: Eh, a bit, but remember, flamingos swing their heads from side to side in the water IIRC, and whales fill their mouths, then empty them through the baleen.

  174. chigau (√-1) says

    Ogvorbis

    I just went through a two-hour conference call about redoing the agency website…

    Shoulda done it by email.

  175. says

    Good evening
    Gnocchi a la panna *nomnom*

    pelamun
    You might look a bit deeper into the Giordano Bruno Stiftung’s position towards muslims and islamophobia.
    And I will not even try to look for the gender thingy….

    ++++

    And the least involved approach is to simply say whatever the fuck you please, and afterwards repeat ad nauseum that you meant no offense and the other person is to blame.

    May I remark how, for very personal reasons, fucking tired I am of that shit (not your position, sg, the action).

    In medical professions the appropriate reaction is complicated because it also depends on your position.
    If you’re a doc in a hospital, it’s not possible to let the patient die, but I would have a handy little printout ready:
    I, [name of patient] refused to get treated by Dr. X, who is fully qualified to do the job simply because she’s a woman. I will patiently wait until a male doctor has time to look after me and accept that negative consequences due to the delay are my responsibility.
    Signed:

    But my sister works in geriatric care, doing home-service. Their patients are their customers and therefore “the boss”. If you tell them to take it or leave it they’ll call an different agency that will cater for their whims.
    Especially with plumbing, many patients (men and women alike) will refuse the male nurses.

  176. chigau (√-1) says

    For the first time this year, I put the laundry on the line outside to dry.
    It appears to be working.

  177. Ogvorbis: Now With 98% Less Intellectual Curiousity! says

    What kind? Vitreous? Aqueous? Yellow Bile? Black Bile? Blood? Phlegm?

    Almost funny.

    Ignoring everything except heads and skulls, just how convergent ARE flamingos and baleen whales, anyways?

    For feeding, quite. For locomotion, breeding strategies, musculo-skeletal, not much.

    How’s that for no help at all?

    And even for feeding, the baleen whales use a gulp and forced filter to trap the krill, while flamingos, because their mouth parts are rather inflexible, (if I recall correctly) will basically take a ‘bite’ of water, just closing the jaw, and then use the tongue to force the water out through the filters. They can do this very quickly (I have seen spoonbills doing it, and the small waves set up around the bill look like they are produced by a moderate frequency vibration).

    Keep in mind this is from a history major, so take it with 65mg of NaCl.

  178. says

    Eh, a bit, but remember, flamingos swing their heads from side to side in the water IIRC, and whales fill their mouths, then empty them through the baleen.

    Is there an actual metric for measuring convergence?

    Or can we use an example like is it closer to Mammal and Bird wings or closer to Vertebrate wings and insect wings?

  179. Pteryxx says

    “how convergent”? Is there a measure of general convergency somewhere?

    IIRC, flamingos have ridgy beak plates that act as filters, and a big tongue to push mouthfuls of water out past said ridges. Other birds have filter-feeding tricks, like spoonbills, or even pelicans (they filter out whole fish, but still).

    Internet sez flamingo tongues were a delicacy:

    http://www.stanford.edu/group/stanfordbirds/text/essays/Flamingo_Feeding.html

    Humpbacks and other baleen whales have the big mouth and big tongue to pump water out, but the filter is baleen plates hanging off the jaw, baleen being its own structure (composed of keratin like claws/hair).

  181. Ogvorbis: Now With 98% Less Intellectual Curiousity! says

    Shoulda done it by email.

    The emails have been flying fast and heavy since early November for the February 1st release of the reskin. Now April 1st. We hope.

  182. A. R says

    Ing: I should imagine that you would hit the ball easily, but accuracy would be difficult considering the bumpiness of a whales head.

  183. says

    I am now dictating a change in topic to Trollz!

    Random question: Do rightwing sites get left wing trolls? Do people honestly go to places like Stormfront and GOPproud to post incitful messages of caring and tolerance? Or is the practice of “saying outrageous offensive shit” limited to attacking weak people or the vulnerable?

  184. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, purveyor of candy and lies says

    chigau:

    For the first time this year, I put the laundry on the line outside to dry.
    It appears to be working.

    I have opened the windows in my kitchen, which has made my kittehs cah-razy. :)

    Even though we had an incredibly mild winter here, I still ♥ spring. :)

  185. keenacat says

    Or is the practice of “saying outrageous offensive shit” limited to attacking weak people or the vulnerable?

    How outrageous can it even get?
    Image that, business as usual on Stormfront when suddenly, somebody under the moniker “swastikasucks” pops in to proclaim how turks are actually people, and ZOMG hilarity ensues!

  186. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    Random question: Do rightwing sites get left wing trolls?

    Yes! Some right-wing libertarian sites get me. And on any large site, I always see others.

    Do people honestly go to places like Stormfront and GOPproud to post incitful messages of caring and tolerance?

    I don’t read GOProud, but Stormfront has a dedicated subforum for anti-racists. It’s been a few months since last I checked, but the most active antis at that time were a couple of black women.

  187. chigau (√-1) says

    Where did this Ing is King thing happen?
    —-
    hmmm
    trolling fundy sites might be fun…

  188. says

    So I’ll lob humours at all of you.

    Oggie, I found it humerus, but my tibia objected.
    ++++++++++++++++++++
    Flamingo courting dance. I once edited and set this to The Sabre Dance, but it was in iMovie, so no mashup for you.
    ++++++++++++++++++++
    PS Flamingos krill to be pink.

  189. A. R says

    chigau: Conservapædia was for a time (and may still be) regularly trolled. But trolling other fundy sites could indeed be hilarious.

  190. says

    Stormfront has a dedicated subforum for anti-racists. It’s been a few months since last I checked, but the most active antis at that time were a couple of black women.

    This kind of blew my mind.

  191. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, purveyor of candy and lies says

    life etc:

    Some right-wing libertarian sites get me.

    Ha! Oh, this made me smile!

    :)

  192. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, purveyor of candy and lies says

    Gah, I am just all full of the smilies today. Must be the nice weather.

    Anyway, how’s everyone?

  195. Pteryxx says

    Or is the practice of “saying outrageous offensive shit” limited to attacking weak people or the vulnerable?

    There’s a classic rock radio station out here that I mentally call Hate Speech Radio. Almost everything the DJs say, even the station ID spots, are some form of misogyny, racism, homophobia, violence etc. (For example: “Every time you change the station, God kills a hooker.”) Their schtick is “outrageous offensive radio” and “Nobody tells us what to do!”

    I keep wanting to challenge them “Oh, you’re not afraid to offend ANYBODY, you say? Let’s see you support rape victims then. Cowards.”

  197. cicely ("Intriguingly Odd") says

    Plus, whales on sticks in your yard gives it a surreal touch that flamingos just can’t compete with.
    –

  198. Woo_Monster says

    The wonderful weather brought out the godbots and proselytizers today. I had an enjoyable time laughing at their preachings. Anyone else in the Madison (Wi) area who is looking for a nice confrontation with idiocy (I know I always am), come join me later for some more heckling of the liars-for-christ.

    The most coherent argument that was made was that preachers themselves are proof of god. Because, you know, if someone really believes something is true, then it must be. I was asked why the preacher would be out there proselytizing if god wasn’t real. I only had a one word response, “delusion”.

    I happened to be wearing my Hail Carl Sagan shirt, so I recommended Demon Haunted World as a nice place to start if one wanted to get serious about thinking critically, and examining if one’s beliefs are actually true.

  199. Mattir says

    Flamingoes are a beautiful pink color which I am attempting to replicate via a massive natural dye sample project this afternoon. Which is why I have maple bark simmering on the stove – earlier it was kamala powder, cedar needles, Christmas fern, and daffodils.

    The FB group is not intended to be a Super Sekrit thing and was made unsearchable only because we had some troll infestation problems related to someone with a 3 digit IQ. We mostly use meatspace names, which is also a reason to make it non-public. It started when PZ went on strike, flared back into life during the health scare, and has been ticking along nicely ever since.

    I am in a blissfully-grateful-for-the-Horde mood. Kaessa has been talking via FB with SonSpawn for upwards of 6 months, helping him learn about building a gaming computer. Sunday afternoon we are building the thing with webcam consultation. All homeschool families should have the blessings of the Horde – among other things, it would probably cut down on the fundamentalist homeschooling problems. It would also increase the chances that one’s teenager would respond to friends’ woo or stupid opinions with “Citation Fucking Needed”, along with a helpful list of the logical fallacies involved.

  200. says

    pelamun
    No, sorry, not really.

    +++++++
    Argh, just reading the first 50something comments on the “pro-life culture” thread makes me sick.
    It’s the same fucking stupid bullshit as usually: It’s a joke, it’s the internet, it’s…
    It doesn’t fucking matter if the subject is misogyny, homophobia or racism. It’s the fucking same stupid shit.

    ++++++
    Oh, and it reminds me of the nompliment (not a compliment) I got last Saturday when we picked up our caravan which usually stands in a fenced and protected estate.
    We had to pull it onto the road and then Mr. drove backwards towards the towbar and I directed him, as usually.
    The guy who runs the estate complimented me on being “the first woman he’s ever seen who can do that right”.
    Yeah, if a guy does it badly he just sucks. If a woman does it badly it’s proof that the entire sex is unable to do it…

  202. chigau (√-1) says

    Giliell #200
    I hope you gave Caravan Park Dude a big smile and a “Bless your heart, Cupcake!”

  204. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    I am truly jealous of those having warm springlike weather. Truly.

    Yesterday, we started with cloud, then snow, then rain, then hail, then brief sun again followed by more rain.

    Today it’s more consistent: FUCKING SNOW. You lied to me, Crocuses.

  208. says

    It’s hard to blame the crocuses, they get lied to every year, and yet they still keep coming back.
    +++++++++++++++++
    FY DST! I still wake up at the same time but the clock tells me I’m late for work.

    I got even today, I made up for being an hour late by leaving an hour early. (That’s how DST works, right?)

  210. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Slignot:

    Crocuses are all liars, TLC.

    The Sailor:

    It’s hard to blame the crocuses, they get lied to every year, and yet they still keep coming back.

    You’re both right. I should have paid more attention to the Snowdrops, for they spoke truth.

  211. onion girl, OM; social workers do it with paperwork says

    Ariaflame, email me re: the PET facebook group. :) Starstuff, email heading your way regarding same.

  212. opposablethumbs, que le pouce enragé mette les pouces says

    It is important to note that whale heads are almost completely useless for croquet. So on that metric they are not convergent at all.

    <3 <3 <3 <3

  213. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    BTW, very interesting about how flamingos feed.

    So many strange and wonderful adaptations have happened with dinosaurs since the extinction event.

    That’s what I like about herons. They hunt with a spear- except the spear is their head and neck!

    Yesterday, the fields were full of swans, presumably grounded by the christless shit-weather we were having. Big lumbering swans. I submit that the swan is very much like a bipedal scaled-down brachiosaur. That can fly.

  214. A. R says

    Out of curiosity, when one joins FB PET, does it show up as a “Like” on your profile?

  215. says

    Eh, I don’t feel like anything would likely have been gained by being meaner to him. That was approximately (just slightly harsher than) the level of confrontation that I have the best luck with in once-off encounters. Sometimes it works.

    Oh quite so! Sorry my wording wasn’t very clear there – I did not mean to sound critical of your reply, I meant (in response to your “Thoughts?” query) that I thought your reply was excellent and not at all too strong – if anything, I thought you let him off more easily than I was in my own head, do you see what I mean?

    You all start too early in the evenings for me! lol IT’s CT here, and supper needs to be made!

  217. Richard Austin says

    A.R.

    Out of curiosity, when one joins FB PET, does it show up as a “Like” on your profile?

    To my knowledge, it doesn’t show up anywhere on your profile as it’s a “secret group”.

    “Only members see this group, who’s in it, and what members post.”

  218. A. R says

    Oh, that’s quite good. I’ve been trying to figure out a way to share some of my research here without identifying myself.

  219. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    Deus or Darwin: Randomness and belief in theories about the origin of life; Bastiaan T. Rutjens, Joop van der Pligt, Frenk van Harreveld; doi 10.1016/j.jesp.2010.07.009

    The field of social and personality psychology is currently witnessing an increased interest in religious belief (see Sedikides, 2010). Perhaps one of the most striking findings related to this topic is that belief in God and other supernatural agents can increase as a result of psychological threats such as existential uncertainty (Norenzayan & Hansen, 2006) and lack of control (Kay, Gaucher, McGregor, & Nash, 2010). Several theories argue that the need to perceive and imbue order and meaning in the universe lies at the heart of this phenomenon, see for example terror management theory (see Greenberg, Solomon & Pyszczynski, 1997) but particularly the recently proposed model of compensatory control (Kay, Gaucher, Napier, Callan & Laurin, 2008; Kay, Gaucher, et al., 2010). Belief in God as a controlling agent thwarts notions of randomness in the universe and provides order.

    Some worldviews acknowledge that the controllability of life’s outcomes is limited and allow for uncertainty and randomness. Darwin’s Theory of Evolution is an example. Given the fact that confrontations with randomness are generally seen as aversive (Kay, Moscovitch, & Laurin, 2010) it is not surprising that controversy still surrounds Darwin’s theory. Interestingly, however, a recently introduced version of evolutionary theory emphasizes that evolution is actually an orderly and predictable process (Conway-Morris, 2005). This alternative view on evolution should be less threatening due to its emphasis on order and predictability, which enables us to address the question what needs are fulfilled by different theories and beliefs about life on this planet. More specifically, what determines their attractiveness when personal control is threatened, the notion of a supernatural agent (i.e., God) or the mere affirmation of an orderly world and universe? If the latter is the case, people should be less in need of God when order in the world is affirmed, for example by offering an orderly perspective on evolution. In other words, even a highly secular and scientific worldview (see Preston & Epley, 2009) should be capable of protecting the person from the aversive experience of randomness, rendering belief in a controlling God superfluous.

    Thus, we hypothesize that a threat to personal control (which poses a threat to perceiving the world as orderly and structured, see Kay et al., 2008; Kay, Gaucher, et al., 2010) only increases belief in an external agent (i.e., God) when no notion of an orderly world is available. To test this idea, we conducted an experiment in which control was manipulated and participants indicated their preference for different perspectives on the world and the evolution of life. These included Darwin’s Theory of Evolution (TE; randomness, no agent), Intelligent Design (ID; order, agent), and a slightly modified version of TE developed by Conway-Morris (2005), which states that evolution is not a random process but is orderly and predictable (CMTE; order, no agent).

    Not random? Maybe, for certain values of random.

    Though I suppose making really really really really sure that students understand natural selection is not random wouldn’t be controversial.

  220. says

    So I’m hoping attendance at today’s rally (speaking of which…time flies) on abstinence bill will help people realize we should stop anyone from taking Gayle Ruzicka seriously.

    Why is she still regarded with any respect? She has been fighting against women and progress with Utah’s Eagle Forum since 1972 and the ERA.

  221. says

    Dinner was toasted wheat bread with slices of avocado & cream cheese with a side salad of greens.

    Dessert is chocolate ice cream with chocolate chips topped by chocolate syrup.

  223. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    if anything, I thought you let him off more easily than I was in my own head, do you see what I mean?

    Ah, I think so.

  224. says

    Dinner was toasted wheat bread with slices of avocado & cream cheese with a side salad of greens.

    Dessert is chocolate ice cream with chocolate chips topped by chocolate syrup.

    What?! No pi? ( 3.14 ;-))

  225. David Marjanović says

    …when will I catch up beyond comment 100 or with the previous subthread…

    Entanglement Is Not That Magic

    I also would like to know if any pharyngulites living between Boston and DC would like to meet up while I’m there (end of may or beginning of june, probably)…

    So, right during the conference in Germany?

    BTW, do you already know when exactly your summer courses will be?

    1. All the English vs. French business (several hundred years of that)
    2. Revolutionary War – 1812
    3. WWI – WWII
    4. Gulf War I and II

    WWI was supposed to be “the war to end all wars”, but ended with “the peace to end all peace”…

    But WWI was itself a sequel to the war between Prussia/Germany and France in 1870/71, and that was a sequel to Napoleon and Louis XIV.

    I suppose WWII would “normally” have had a sequel, but the nukes averted that trope except in Korea, Vietnam and Grenada.

    Also, a friend of mine in the Wichita area would tell you that the noise you mention can already be heard on the Eastern seaboard, because Kansas actually sucks that hard.

    That’s a FOUL LIE! Why does the wind go from north to south in Oklahoma? Because Texas sucks and Kansas blows!

    Humanist Communities

    They’re doing it wrong!

    They urgently need to find a way to lengthen that term so it can finally have Three Capital Letters.

    I really can’t leave Canada to do my Ph.D., can I? Everywhere but the US is too far away

    Why?

    You posted some links to the Microraptor, back on the last Endless, along with a few corrections to the artwork. I’ve been thinking about what you said, from an aeronautics point of view, and I agree completely that the lower legs, feathers and all, should be pointed down at the ground.

    That’s good, but I’m not talking about aeronautics at all. I’m purely talking about anatomy. First we need to know what the animal was physically capable of; then we can use that knowledge to figure out how it might have used its abilities. We cannot, as some people have done in the published literature, assume it was any particular kind of flier/glider/whatever and then ask what features would help it in that lifestyle before even finding out whether it had those features.

    Further, the leg motion to cause a turn in the air would be exactly the same as the motion used to turn on the ground. (To see what I mean, stand on one foot and use that foot to twist your body so you can look over a shoulder–your lower leg twists. If it had feathers and was behind you in the air, it would turn the you the same way. (If bird feet and legs don’t twist like that, my premise goes only partly out the window–it’s still a good passive stabilizer.))

    They don’t, and neither do those of any other dinosaur – but you can just replace that twist by a twist in the hip. That works (to some extent). :-)

    Modern birds use their tails to as rudders. To do so, they need to twist the tail from flat to vertical, then move it side-to-side. It is a complicated move, requiring many muscles. The tail of the Microraptor simply can’t do all that, and hasn’t the feathers it needs, but could easily evolve into it over time.

    In short, the Microraptor, with your corrections to the artwork, is exactly what I’d expect of a “training” bird. It’s ideal for a creature transitioning from ground to air.

    A lot of creationists like to ask, “What use is half a wing?” (And the truth is that there are many uses for half a wing.) A better question would be, “How can you fly without a highly developed tail?” Well, your version of Microraptor is how.

    So it isn’t just the fact that no modern birds hold their legs as shown, it’s the fact that no bird of any time could fly like that.

    All seconded!

    I found a picture of how the Microraptor should fly. Look at http://jarelaircraftdesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/ICON-Flying-Wing1.jpg and imagine it upside down.

    That’s probably it. :-)

    I always figured the ‘flying squirrel’ pose reconstructions of microraptor looked thoroughly ridiculous. Almost like some of those hypothetical ‘bird ancestor’ things you see in old dinosaur books from before the days when Birds-as-dinosaurs became widely accepted.

    Well, not almost. It goes like this:

    1) C. William Beebe proposes, on largely theoretical grounds, that there was a “tetrapteryx stage” (his term) in the ancestry of birds – a gliding animal with wing feathers on arms and legs. A bit more text, and an illustration, here.
    2) Gerhard Heilmann discusses that hypothesis in his very influential 1925/6/7* book and rejects it for lack of evidence; Beebe keeps promoting it till at least the late 40s, but other people mostly ignore that.
    3) People find wing feathers on the legs of Microraptor in 2001 and more clearly (better preserved) in 2003. They know about the tetrapteryx hypothesis, are immediately reminded of it, and excitedly reconstruct Microraptor to fit it. Even though its hip sockets, illustrated at high resolution in a 2002 paper**, simply don’t allow it.

    * Danish original 1925; English translation 1926; American edition 1927. The 1926 date is most commonly given.
    ** Open access! I can look for the link later this week.

    Thoughts? From anyone who I haven’t called racist in the past week?

    You’re right on the money. Jadehawk, thanks for alerting me to the xkcd – it’s one of the “yes, this!!!” ones.

  226. says

    Haiku:

       Mussels in my lunch.
       No dental floss at my desk.
       I has an annoyed.
     
    Unrelatedly, this (mildly NSFW; text only) may not be the best thing ever but it’s a reasonable approximation.

    Giliell: “Especially with plumbing, many patients (men and women alike) will refuse the male nurses.”

    I would make an exception for patients who do so because of sexual trauma, but I suspect that is not why most of the patients in question refuse the male nurses.

    Ing: “Do rightwing sites get left wing trolls?” Of course they do. Not all the comments are “caring and tolerant,” of course; some are pure abuse, while others are stealthily reeling in the gullible. But, yes, all sorts of people across the political spectrum troll.

    The Sailor:

    No, it’s more off-white, and there’s a fuckton of it.

    I thought those were the sperm whales….

    Woo_Monster: What god is Ted Haggard proof of?

  229. John Morales says

    I have problems with some people’s names; Eddie Lizzard and Eric Banana are two of those.

    (Also with names of fictional characters: Padmé Amygdala comes to mind; and who can forget Dr. Phibes’ assistant, Vulvania?)

  230. carlie says

    Mussels in my lunch.

    I had mussels in my mail. Damned good thing too, or we wouldn’t have had anything to do for lab today. Darned things got here less than two hours before class started.

    I’ve been annoyed by this story all day.

    High school students in Dunkerton, Iowa were expecting an assembly about bullying and making good choices. What they got instead was the Christian rap/hard rock band called Junkyard Prophet delivering an anti-gay and anti-abortion rant.

    According to the La Crosse Tribune, after the band performed, they separated the girls, boys, and teachers into three breakout groups. “They told my daughter, the girls, that they were going to have mud on their wedding dresses if they weren’t virgins,” said Jennifer Littlefield, whose 16-year-old daughter, Alivia called her in tears after the event. Reportedly, one of the band members led the girls in a chant pledging purity and encouraged them to be submissive to their husbands after marriage.

    The boys were shown images of musicians who died of drug overdoses. A video of the event shows a band member criticizing Elton John and Lady Gaga for encouraging “sexual deviancy” and supporting laws outlawing homosexuality.

    This should be pretty cut-and-dried, right? Principal and school apologize profusely, agree to vet performers more carefully in the future. Yeah.

    After the event, Superintendent Jim Stanton reportedly addressed the student body and reiterated the band’s positive “anti-violence, anti-drug, anti-alcohol” message.

  231. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    While I think it’s not too excessively cute that Rutjens et al are using Conway-Morris to show that God is unnecessary, I don’t entirely trust that Conway-Morris has gotten his facts straight.

    But what other arguments could take the place of his? As noted, Dawkins explains how natural selection is not random; Dennett does a good job of explaining attractors, and doesn’t Vic Stenger have an argument that the fundamental constants might be dependent on each other?

  232. Just_A_Lurker says

    Ok, I know I’m late about hearing about this but seriously WTF?

    http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/05/local/la-me-0906-banks-20110906

    I’m channel surfing because I can’t sleep and stop on ID Discovery. The show is about this case where a student killed another student in school in front of everyone. The fucking framing on this shit is ridiculous. Who gives a shit if the perpetrator was a skin head planning it out or a “crime of passion by a troubled, frustrated teenage boy embarrassed beyond reason by another boy’s unwanted romantic attentions”?

    On what planet does the second description become a fucking issue to get deadlocked over?

    Oh no, he’s young, never been in trouble let him get away with a fucking murder because he can’t handle the fact that gay people exist.

    What about the victim? Why doesn’t someone care about him?

    GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

  233. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    JAL: Wait, so it’s OK for me to kill someone, as long as they make me REALLY REALLY REALLY frustrated and/or embarassed first?

    How embarassed do I have to be before I’m ’embarassed beyond reason’? Do they have a test for that kind of thing?

  234. Pteryxx says

    TLC: it only works if you’re embarrassed beyond privileged-white-male reason. Other-emotions don’t count…

  236. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    On what planet does the second description become a fucking issue to get deadlocked over?

    On a planet where we differentiate between murder and manslaughter, and ask juries to determine which crime occurred.

    Oh no, he’s young, never been in trouble let him get away with a fucking murder because he can’t handle the fact that gay people exist.

    What are you talking about? He’s going to be in jail for 21 years.

    +++++
    You know what we also don’t need?

    Reactionaries who can’t even be bothered to comprehend that a mistrial doesn’t automatically mean the perp walks free.

    Pteryxx, TLC, JAL, this shit is embarrassing. Do your homework.

  237. John Morales says

    ॐ,

    On a planet where we differentiate between murder and manslaughter, and ask juries to determine which crime occurred.

    Intent is not an irrelevance.

  238. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    Racist troll John Morales, we’ve discussed this before, and I have never disputed that jurisprudence considers intent. I have instead always advocated consequentialism and I have proposed alterations to jurisprudence that could account for such matters.

    You are a piece of shit troll and I look forward to your obituary. How old are you, and do you have any heart disease in your family? I’m just trying to estimate how much longer I have to put up with you.

  239. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Pteryxx, TLC, JAL, this shit is embarrassing. Do your homework.

    I have no defense to this. I didn’t read the link.

    Derp.

  240. John Morales says

    ॐ, let it be noted that you don’t dispute me.

    (Hey, I don’t remember Cato Fong being appalled by Clouseau’s ego!)

  241. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    ॐ, let it be noted that you don’t dispute me.

    And in return you won’t even help me work out your actuarial tables?

    Ingrate.

  242. John Morales says

    ॐ, ingrate?

    Hm, you may have a point.

    My ego thanks you for being my very own enemy.

    (Hey, you think you might be my arch-nemesis?

    That would be cool!)

  243. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    is it just me or is this argument starting to get kinda…

    silly?

    I’m not really sure what point is even being argued anymore.

  244. A. R says

    How old are you, and do you have any heart disease in your family? I’m just trying to estimate how much longer I have to put up with you

    That was a little out of line, even for Pharyngula.

  245. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, purveyor of candy and lies says

    TLC:

    is it just me or is this argument starting to get kinda…

    silly?

    That’s usually how it goes.

    *sigh* I was having a good time hanging out here on a crappy day, but I can see that sg is back in rare form. I think I’ll just skip whatever happens next and finish Mass Effect, instead.

  246. Pteryxx says

    I wasn’t responding to the specifics of the case in the article, but to the framing of the article.

    The fucking framing on this shit is ridiculous. Who gives a shit if the perpetrator was a skin head planning it out or a “crime of passion by a troubled, frustrated teenage boy embarrassed beyond reason by another boy’s unwanted romantic attentions”?

    I don’t need to know how the sentencing turned out to have a problem with “embarrassed beyond reason” being floated as relevant to killing.

  247. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    that too, A.R. I kinda unconciously assumed wishing death upon each other was kinda up there with gendered insults and such around these parts.

  248. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    I’m already juggling several arch-nemeses who aren’t supposed to know about each other.

    Besides, you’re too old for me. Where would I be left when you’re gone? No, it’s best if I just hate you casually.

  249. Loud says

    Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart #245

    I think I’ll just skip whatever happens next and finish Mass Effect, instead.

    Oooh, Audley, you could tell me how awesome ME3 is, as I’ve yet to buy it.

    I know, I know, but I’m still playing FFXIII-2!

  250. John Morales says

    ॐ:

    Besides, you’re too old for me.

    Didn’t you just ask how old I was? :)

    No, it’s best if I just hate you casually.

    <pouts>

    Ah well, I take what I can get.

    —

    (Dammit, I’ve made it all about myself again, haven’t I?)

  251. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, purveyor of candy and lies says

    Loud,
    Oh, trust me, Mass Effect 3 is fucking awesome.

    I’ve just about completed it (assuming that it works the same way that 2 did– whereas when you choose to embark on the last mission, there ain’t no turnin’ back).

    Without being too spoiler-y, I’m really happy that Bioware has changed the entire tone for this one. Remember how in 1 and 2, Shepard was all, “pffft, whatever. I got this” no matter what? Yeah, in 3, not so much.

    They’re staring at the end of everything and Shepard has seen a lot of death and destruction– it’s good to have that reflected in both the character and the storyline, you know?

  252. cicely ("Intriguingly Odd") says

    How old are you, and do you have any heart disease in your family? I’m just trying to estimate how much longer I have to put up with you.

    What the????

    Look, you don’t have to put up with John Morales an instant longer than you want to; I understand that killfiling is fast, easy, painless, and doesn’t even stain your hands, and since he doesn’t morph his name, is without even the aggravation of needing periodic tweaking.

    And there’s always the scroll-bar.
    –

  254. A. R says

    OK, so I’m very happy to announce that my new research work officially begins tomorrow when we start preparing the vectors. We should have the gene in about three weeks, and after that, the flies in a month or two.

  255. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, purveyor of candy and lies says

    John,
    Um, thanks. I think.

    (I’m tired and sore and I’m trying not to think about having to go into work tomorrow feeling like this. That’s not saying that I would have used the correct word in the first place, but that I just don’t really care at the moment. Catch me when I’m feeling better, okay?)

  258. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    Pteryxx,

    I don’t need to know how the sentencing turned out to have a problem with “embarrassed beyond reason” being floated as relevant to killing.

    Yeah? Any state of extreme emotion is going to affect the degree of a murder case.

    The defense alleges that the victim had been sexually harassing the defendant. Whether or not that particular allegation is true, the courts take an interest in what the defendant’s state of mind is. Consider an analogous case where a woman kills a man who she alleges was sexually harassing her; if the harassment did occur, and caused her severe emotional disturbance such that she could not completely think straight, that would not be a prima facie absurd defense against the crime of murder and in favor of the manslaughter charge instead.

    So before you decide about this case, consider that your “problem” applied more broadly could mean that sexual harassment generally could be completely ignored as an extenuating circumstance in murder trials, even when the harassment did in fact occur.

    And as for this:

    it only works if you’re embarrassed beyond privileged-white-male reason. Other-emotions don’t count…

    Do you really believe that no one but white men have ever been able to successfully argue for a lesser charge or lesser sentence due to severe emotional disturbance?

    +++++
    John,

    Didn’t you just ask how old I was? :)

    I have a general idea, and it’s old enough that I feel hopeful in asking for the specifics

  259. cicely ("Intriguingly Odd") says

    By the way, am I the only one missing Walton?

    No. And I remain concerned over the continuing absence of blf.
    –

  260. Loud says

    Audley

    I can’t wait to play it! It kinda snuck up on me, in that suddenly it was in the shops and everyone on my friends list seemed to be playing it, except me. Although I do really want to finish Final Fantasy.

    I’m glad they’ve gone with the epic finale feel, and what sounds like a darker tone. Thanks for the review!

    P.S. Sorry to hear you’re not feeling too good :(

  261. cm's changeable moniker says

    Ohhhhkayyyyy.

    sgbm/LM/newthing: “I don’t entirely trust that Conway-Morris has gotten his facts straight.”

    I think he’s being provocative. In the sense of “If there’s hydrogen and oxygen, there’ll be water. If there’s DNA, there’ll be life.”

    In related news:

    Interstellar ices were simulated by condensing and UV irradiating molecules such as H2O, CH3OH, and NH3 at 80 K. Multidimensional gas chromatography analyses allowed for the identification of 26 amino and diamino acids. The results support the suggestion that potentially prebiotic molecules originating from the photochemistry of interstellar ices could have been incorporated in cometary dust and delivered to the early Earth.

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cplu.201100048/abstract

  263. Part-Time Insomniac, Zombie Porcupine Nox Arcana Fan says

    Another vote for missing blf and Walton. I hope neither of them is a ton of pandemonium and not sharing.
    —————————————–

    I was fortunate enough to receive fantastic news from my friend M. Her husband, and my buddy, K, has been cleared for permanent residence in the US! His interview was the 1tth, and I’m guessing M got word last night or possibly early this morning. No idea when he’s leaving Wales, but this news has had me so happy that I’ve actually missed my usual DDO time from playing happy songs and dancing like a dork.
    ——————————————-

    Aaaaaaand then I saw carlie’s post @203. I think my computer almost exploded from the sudden switch between happy music and heavy metal at that. *sigh* I’m going to go kill pixels now, looks like another late shower for me.

  264. Part-Time Insomniac, Zombie Porcupine Nox Arcana Fan says

    Akc, that should read, “is causing a ton of pandemonium”.

  265. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, purveyor of candy and lies says

    Loud:

    I’m glad they’ve gone with the epic finale feel, and what sounds like a darker tone. Thanks for the review!

    No problem.

    Really, if you loved ME2 like I loved ME2*, you aren’t going to be disappointed with the third game. It is definitely a fitting end to the series.

    P.S. Sorry to hear you’re not feeling too good :(

    Thanks. :)

    I’ll be okay– it’s nothing permanent or life-threatening or anything. Just feel like poo at the moment.

    *Don’t get me wrong, I really liked 1, but 2 was just so mind-blowingly good in comparison, you know?

  266. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    I think he’s being provocative. In the sense of “If there’s hydrogen and oxygen, there’ll be water. If there’s DNA, there’ll be life.”

    Is that all? Okay. I just got a weird religious vibe froma book review.

    +++++
    John, thanks. A bit less hopeful now, but oh well.

  267. Mattir says

    I was having a pleasant dinner with the fambilly when I got a call from the yarn store where I teach – I had a class waiting for me. The Spawns turned the car around in the driveway, collected my computer/phone/spinning bag/purse and tossed it into the car while I changed, and handed me $40 “just in case” as I ran out the door. I never knew I could make it from home to the store in 22 minutes (15 miles, including some suburban traffic light hell), but I did, and I didn’t even drive super aggressively. (Perhaps a tad assertive, but that’s all I’ll admit to.) The amazing thing about spinning is that 10 minutes into teaching the students how to go from sheep fur to yarn, I was totally valium calm, even without the nice valium, the students were happily making yarn, and we’d agreed to do a bonus class as atonement for my calendar snafu.

    I’ll be at Reason Rally – I’ll be the crazy blissed out lady with the drop spindle and a slew of teens…

  268. Mattir says

    Also, Walton appeared alive and well when he had dinner with some of the DC Horde on Sunday night. Perhaps a tad exhausted from school, but otherwise well.

  269. Loud says

    Audley #265

    Really, if you loved ME2 like I loved ME2*, you aren’t going to be disappointed with the third game. It is definitely a fitting end to the series.

    I prefered it to the original, too. I played it straight through, twice, the last time on Insanity difficulty; the fight at the end was tough!

    Glad it’s nothing serious :)

    I need to sleep now, otherwise I’ll feel terrible tomorrow; it’s gone 2am.

    Night all!

  270. Pteryxx says

    ॐ, if you weren’t trying to push “embarrassment” into equality with “sexual harassment” and “severe emotional disturbance” then you might have a point. To the extent the article conflates sexual harassment with being “embarrassed beyond reason” then it’s diminishing sexual harassment at the same time it’s eliding homophobia.

  273. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    Pteryxx, I have an obvious point right here which you’re too committed to your ignorance to even notice:

    It only works if you’re embarrassed beyond privileged-white-male reason. Other-emotions don’t count…

    Do you really believe that no one but white men have ever been able to successfully argue for a lesser charge or lesser sentence due to severe emotional disturbance?

    You made an erroneous statement which you now won’t acknowledge. That should embarrass you.

    ॐ, if you weren’t trying to push “embarrassment” into equality with “sexual harassment” and “severe emotional disturbance” then you might have a point.

    I’m not doing that. Those are the records of the case. The defense did what any decent defense will do in hard cases, proposing any and all possible extenuating circumstances.

    To the extent the article conflates sexual harassment with being “embarrassed beyond reason” then it’s diminishing sexual harassment at the same time it’s eliding homophobia.

    It’s not a conflation; it’s a component.

    The defense alleges sexual harassment, and that this caused the defendant a severe emotional disturbance, manifesting several ways, incuding thought-clouding embarrassment. So, do you deny that sexual harassment can cause embarrassment? Do you deny that it can interfere with rational decision making?

    If a woman in an analogous situation reported that at the time of the killing she experienced a variety of emotions but the most overwhelming was embarrassment, would that make the defense prima facie absurd as opposed to if she said the most overwhelming was anger or disgust?

  274. says

    Cicely:

    Plus, whales on sticks in your yard gives it a surreal touch that flamingos just can’t compete with.

    They can’t compete with these, which I saw en route to Josh’s a few weeks ago.

    Carlie: A friend to whom I emailed the Iowa story, noting that one of the “prophets” referred to the “10 commandments” of the U.S. Constitution, described a bar game he likes to play: “Ask a bunch of people to list the 10 Commandments. Nobody can do it, and somebody always argues that adultery is not in there.”

    That blew my mind, that someone would argue the absence of adultery in the 10 Commandments. Especially as he lives in a heavily fundie state.

  275. cm's changeable moniker says

    sgbm/LM/cantkeepup:

    “Is that all? Okay. I just got a weird religious vibe from a book review.”

    He’s cool.

    (Also one of my university lecturers. Fact and opinion are related.)

    —

    Mussels in my lunch.
    No dental floss at my desk.
    I has an annoyed.

    No, no, no! :)

    Mussels disappear,
    but traces linger. Worried,
    now want dental floss.

    —

    And if I’m going to mention seafood, this is teh awesome:

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2010/04/07/gut-bacteria-in-japanese-people-borrowed-sushi-digesting-genes-from-ocean-bacteria/

  276. Pteryxx says

    ॐ: *yawn*

    Without making an exhaustive search of the legal literature, yeah I’m willing to believe that privileged white males are WAY more likely to have a claim of “embarrassment” taken as serious justification for whatever it is they did than a woman, POC, or other marginalized person would.

    Past that, I’m not interested in feeding your fact-claim fetish.

  278. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    yeah I’m willing to believe that privileged white males are WAY more likely to have a claim of “embarrassment” taken as serious justification

    Oh for fuck’s sake. That’s not even what you said:

    TLC: it only works if you’re embarrassed beyond privileged-white-male reason. Other-emotions don’t count…

    As though nobody else’s emotions of any kind have ever mattered in a court of law. Silly shit.

    Now, embarrassment? Okay, one of the reasons we’re talking about it is because it’s a rare component of a defense. But if you reject the very premise of it, which you were doing a moment ago, then the precedent you’d set up is that:

    if a woman in an analogous situation reported that at the time of the killing she experienced a variety of emotions but the most overwhelming was embarrassment, that would make the defense prima facie absurd as opposed to if she said the most overwhelming was anger or disgust.

    And yet I don’t think it’s implausible that someone could report of sexual harassment, regardless of whether it resulted in retaliation, that “I was angry and disgusted, but embarrassed more than anything”, do you?

    Past that, I’m not interested in feeding your fact-claim fetish.

    Yeah, FSM forbid that anyone even consider how the justice system actually worked in any particular instance. It’s better that someone should simply assert they “let him get away with a fucking murder” even though he’ll be in prison for the next 21 years since he pled guilty.

  280. says

    My pet meadow voel just died. Her water bottle was hung wrong and she may not have been able to reach it, but I fixed it about 11 hours before she died and saw her drinking immediately afterward. I wouldn’t think it would have that kind of delayed effect. On the other hand, she was fine about 48 hours ago and I’d think old age or injuries from when the cat got her a couple weeks ago wouldn’t have such a sudden onset.

  282. says

    I’ve lived in Iowa 23 years and never heard of Dunkerton. Apparently, it’s less than an hour away. It’s a tiny town of about 750 people. They really are not going to want a lawsuit, especially since Iowa judges aren’t elected and don’t have to worry so much about what the public thinks of there verdict.

  284. theophontes 777 says

    @ Ace of Sevens

    What chigau said. These little critters have very high metabolisms and do not last very long in nature. It is quite normal for them to not last more than a few months, so if you had yours for 6 months, that is pretty good going. I hope it helps to think that you probably gave your vole a longer and happier life than it would otherwise have had.

  285. says

    Good morning
    I’m sorry to inform you that James Bond failed and the world is gone.
    At least when I look out of my windows. Nothing but a soft white.

    Ace of Sevens
    Sorry about your loss

    ++++++
    I know I’m going to regret this….

    Who gives a shit if the perpetrator was a skin head planning it out or a “crime of passion by a troubled, frustrated teenage boy embarrassed beyond reason by another boy’s unwanted romantic attentions”?

    Well, I for one give a shit that the killer was just 14 at that time.
    14 years old.
    Not supposed mature enough to drive a car, not mature enough to be able to make a sensible decission about buying a beer.
    14 year olds don’t start shooting gay kids (btw, am I the only person who got the impression that the victim might not even have been gay but a straight transwoman?) because they’re evil.
    They don’t have the fucking ability to make rational decissions the way adults make them, and even with the best education are less able to handle intense emotions.
    That’s why you fucking all some behaviour in adults immature.
    The situation at the school also seems to be that most teachers did not support the victim and didn’t work on an environment that would make the school a safe place.
    When a teacher reported that she’d heard that kids talk about beating the boy up, the door was slammed in her face.
    And we don’t even know about the boy’s home. Maybe his parents are among those who send those lovely Twitter messages about killing their own kid if gay.
    Or where on earth the gun came from.
    That’s the environment in which this horrible crime happened.
    Focussing on how long the kid needs to go to prison is doing shit about all those things but makes people feel good.
    It’s the same fucking mistake that lies at basis of the US law and order culture. That approach doesn’t suddenly start to work because you have extreme sympathy for the victim and are abhorred by this particular crime.

  286. Therrin says

    Oh, trust me, Mass Effect 3 is fucking awesome.

    A friend of mine finished it yesterday, and said that while the game was great, the ending was meh. I’m curious as to your (plural) reactions. (I don’t have it yet myself, will someday but not in a hurry.)

  287. says

    I think there’s no way a 14-year-old should have been charged as an adult. This may superficially resemble a typical gay panic bullshit case, but it isn’t.

  288. says

    Actually, starting to think I mis-IDed her. I caught her in my house in Cedar Rapids, IA. She was dark grayish on top and bottom, but light gray around the mouth. I’d think southern bog lemming, but her poops weren’t green and my understanding is lemmings are not normally a household pest. Here’s a photo of another animal of the same species I caught last year if that helps.

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=623149686589&set=a.606439638659.2136945.71804321

    Note the tiny eyes and ears so small that the fur hides them. Can anyone definitively ID?

  289. Gen Fury, Still Desolate and Deviant #1 says

    Totally threadrupt, but I thought Teh Horde would get a kick out of this:

    Judges ordered to attend Christian course

    That didn’t go too well, though:

    Mogoeng’s spokesperson, Lulama Luti told the newspaper that none of the justices invited had attended the conference.

    I <3 u, South Africa.

  291. says

    That does look similar, but she lived for six months on Kay-tee mouse chow and table scraps like potato peels and bits of bread. I didn’t think shrews could do that.

  292. says

    I’ll add that at first I fed her two pieces a day, and she didn’t eat all of them and just buried food around her cage, so I went to about one and a half. A search of her cage post-mortem showed she had eaten all food except what I had given her in the last 12 hours or so of her life. I hope I didn’t malnourish her by feeding her a diet aimed at the wrong animal. I hope I didn’t starve or malnourish her.

  293. says

    Ahhh, the world is back and it brought spring with it.
    On our short walk to the kindergarten we could hear and watch various singing birds, jays, a rabbit, a squirrel and a bald-headed eagle. The little one claims that she also saw flamingos, giraffes and elephants (white, black, green and blue) but I doubt that.

  294. says

    Oh, wonderful, just what PP needs right now.

    Some details from the Lubbock Online article:

    Sgt. Jonathan Stewart, Lubbock Police Department spokesman, said he didn’t know whether children were in the area when Thornton was in the park or how many people were present.

    Stewart said he had no other details to release to the public about the incident.

    The police report lists a 43-year-old male as the alleged victim.

    State law defines a victim of indecent exposure as a person who is present and offended during someone’s public exposure of genitals, Stewart said.

    Here’s a comment from Fark:

    I grew up around Amarillo, which ran Planned Parenthood out of town. Literally. We used to have a PP in Amarillo that did NOT do abortions (we’ve NEVER had an abortion provider in Amarillo – not at least for the past 20 years). They ran them out, and a local organization took over the facility and re-named it. Then that went downhill and somebody ELSE took it over & renamed it. Lubbock is where you go for an abortion if you live in the Texas panhandle, southeast New Mexico, or anywhere in the nearby areas.

    I just can’t shake the feeling that this is all a little too “neat”, you know? The idea of the CEO of this evil abortion agency whipping his willy out IN A PARK around small children? Just feels a little too forced…

  295. says

    Passing this on with regards to the upcoming GAC :

    Dear Gala Dinner ticket holders,

    This is a final reminder to send in your requests for seating at the Gala Dinner! If you wish to sit with friends, please let us know via dinner@atheistconvention.org.au by the 4th of April.

    Any requests after this time will not be accepted.

    And sorry, but we are not accepting requests to sit with a specific speaker. But you knew that anyway. :o)

    Tables can accommodate up to 10 people each. To reduce emails, please nominate one person per group to coordinate organisation of the table(s). If there is a specific group that you wish to sit with, i.e. AFA forum users, you must contact the nominated coordinator. The dinner committee are not able to do that for you. The coordinator of the group needs to send in the following for each member of the group:

    – Name
    – Dietary requirements
    – Confirmation number (found at the top of your receipt email)

    If any Aussies want to sit together, let me know before then, otherwise we just do it lottery style, and gravitate towards each other after we’ve had enough of wine.

  297. says

    You are a piece of shit troll and I look forward to your obituary. How old are you, and do you have any heart disease in your family? I’m just trying to estimate how much longer I have to put up with you.

    SGBM, that wasn’t very nice really, even by your standards.

  298. says

    Not me. So, who’s going to the alternative Paupers’ dinner?

    I’ve paid my 150.- already now. The costs of living in Australia clearly have exploded since we had the last GAC dinner for 40.- 2 years ago. Or did the Atheist Foundation just get greedy ? It couldn’t be.

  300. says

    Ace of Sevens,

    Mak is right on it being some kind of shrew. I don’t know enough about species outside of Europe to be able to tell you what species it could be exactly, but short-tailed shrew is certainly a possibility.

  301. says

    Apropos of nothing,

    I recently told my cousin I was an atheist. She was surprised, saying “I thought you were a Buddhist, like your [non-western born parent]”. But her approach to religion seems to be “because it’s normal”, nothing going deep.

    So this illustrates both my relief (widespread secularisation in society) and frustration (institutional religion retains tons of privileges, and is default status) with the state of affairs of religion in western Europe.

  302. Ogvorbis: Now With 98% Less Intellectual Curiousity! says

    Happy Ides of March!

    A holiday created by Julius Caesar in order to celebrate the existance of different ideologies in the political sphere. He put his all into the celebration, I might add.

  303. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    btw, am I the only person who got the impression that the victim might not even have been gay but a straight transwoman?

    Well, he self-identified as gay. That might have changed later, or not. Some gay guys just like crossdressing.

  305. says

    Well, he self-identified as gay. That might have changed later, or not. Some gay guys just like crossdressing.

    Or probably never really heard about transsexuality and that it’s different from gay.
    It’s something lots of adults don’t understand and we’re talking about kids here. I remember that Natalie told that she also started identifying as gay because she apparently fancied men and still thought she was one. I’m not going to second-guess this any further, but it struck me as noteworthy.

  306. Ogvorbis: Now With 98% Less Intellectual Curiousity! says

    Oggie, I found it humerus, but my tibia objected.

    Well, at least it gives me a leg up on the competition.

    Plus, whales on sticks in your yard gives it a surreal touch that flamingos just can’t compete with.

    A Seisicle?

    For most of my life, we had an escaped flamingo living out at the Great Salt Lake, but he hasn’t been spotted for a few years.

    When I was young, I lived for three years at Death Valley. As my dad drove down to the Visitor Center one morning, he noticed a couple of cars parked along the road by the sewage pond. Odd, but not really all that unusual — good place to watch for birds.

    That afternoon, there were five cars. He stopped to find out what was going on and discovered that a pink flamingo had been blown off course by a storm and was now inhabiting the park sewage pond.

    The next morning, there were more than 50 cars and they had the road to the residential area cut down to one lane. He stopped in at the headquarters building and they assigned a couple of rangers to help park the cars (it is the Park Service after all) and direct traffic. The traffic jam lasted for about a week. Amazing how many birders will stand by the side of a road staring at a sewage pond for a chance to add a pink flamingo to their list.

    How much is that doggie in the window…

    Which one? The one with the waggly tail?

    By the way, am I the only one missing Walton?

    No, you are not.

    The amazing thing about spinning is that 10 minutes into teaching the students how to go from sheep fur to yarn, I was totally valium calm, even without the nice valium,

    I find that, even when I am tired, am having a shitty day, having panic attacks, just got four days worth of work dumped on me which needs to be done yesterday, the moment I begin a programme or a tour for visitors, I am totally calm, relaxed, happy, and content. I wish I could bottle whatever it is in my brain that gives me that feeling.

    That blew my mind, that someone would argue the absence of adultery in the 10 Commandments. Especially as he lives in a heavily fundie state.

    Well, fundies are just as famous for cherry picking the bible as liberal Christians, they are just less honest about it. If they admit that adultery is forbidden, they are left with only familial abuse and internet porn for entertainment.

    A few weeks ago, I saw a man in the grocery store with a large tattoo on his shoulder proclaiming: “Leviticus 18:22! Obey God!”

    I laughed. Hard and long.

  307. janine says

    Well, fundies are just as famous for cherry picking the bible as liberal Christians, they are just less honest about it.

    You have forgotten this canard; Man is fallible but God’s grace covers for that. How dare you judge a christian, only the big sky daddy can do that.

  310. says

    According to the Iowa DNR, the only Shrews that live in Iowa are masked shrews, pygmy shrews and short-tailed shrews. I was familiar with the other two species, which both have a long snout. They look like each other, but not like the ones I caught. The Iowa mammal guide is rather under-illustrated. Weird she survived so long on such an atypical diet (grain and greens with a bit of fruit). She didn’t eat nearly as much as I understand shrews are supposed to, either. I thought they eat several times their weight each day, but she ate about as much as a comparably-sized mouse. Now I feel bad as she was probably malnourished. If I catch another, I will supplement with whatever bugs are easily available.

    I was also led to believe shrews are vicious. She tames fairly easily and would come out of hiding when I opened the cage to take food from my hands. I didn’t try picking her up much, but she didn’t bite when I saved her from the cat.

  311. says

    Argh, there’s nothing like a large pill being stuck in your throat sideways and being moved towards the stomach by mucle-power alone.

    pelamun
    One of my best friends doesn’t believe in god but would never ever leave the catholic church. She would also have any children baptized catholic because that’s what you do

  312. carlie says

    I have also been missing Walton, but hoping he’s focusing on school and such.

    I try to stay out of other people’s arguments, but in the interest of doing what I’ve just been arguing for on the English thread, I’ll butt in and say that comments insinuating the wish of death on the people you’re talking to are comments that I’m not at all happy to see here. There are lots of ways to insult and voice displeasure and condemnation on people, and pretty much all of them are ok, but hoping for someone’s death crosses a line for me.

  313. birgerjohansson says

    “Leviticus 18:22! Obey God!”

    The one banning tattoos?
    — — — —
    “The most coherent argument that was made was that preachers themselves are proof of god”

    WTF ???

  314. Ogvorbis: Now With 98% Less Intellectual Curiousity! says

    Argh, there’s nothing like a large pill being stuck in your throat sideways and being moved towards the stomach by mucle-power alone.

    I once got a small pill, Prozac, stuck up the back of my nose when I sneezed during an attempted swallow. I’ve had the large pill wedged in the throat experience too, but the pill disolving in your sinuses experience is, to me, worse.

    The one banning tattoos?

    No. Lev. 18:22 is “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”

    The one banning tattoos is Lev. 19:28.

  315. Predator Handshake says

    Ace of Sevens @299: Based on what I had read of them, I knew they were probably going to be pretty bad. I was not expecting nu-metal complete with what appear to be Christianity-themed Affliction shirts. I don’t have external speakers on my work computer, so I can’t speak on much of the music. All I can say is that guy rapping sounds like he time-traveled from the 90s (to be expected from a band still trying to do that rap-metal thing) and the drums sound AWFUL.

    Even disregarding for a moment the inappropriate preachiness of it all, I’m flabbergasted that someone thought it would be a good idea to have a band like that perform in front of high school students in 2012.

  316. keenacat says

    One of my best friends doesn’t believe in god but would never ever leave the catholic church. She would also have any children baptized catholic because that’s what you do

    Quite common and even more people do believe in god (or “a higher power” as a friend recently put it, some won’t even claim the god label anymore), abhor the catholic churches actions re gays and child abuse and still stay there because they totes want to marry in a church and omg your babies wont be baptized otherwise!!!11elebenty
    In my profession (medicine) quite a few also stay in the church since neither the Diakonisches Werk (lutheran) nor the Caritas (catholic) will employ people who left the church. Those two organisations own almost 40% of german hospitals besides gawd knows how many child care facilities and a variety of social service institutions.
    The church is a so-called “Tendenzbetrieb”, meaning they can officially discriminate against people on grounds of religious differences. They will, however, usually take muslims, hindus, jews or whatever, but nobody who left the church.
    They are also exempt from (usually compulsory) employee rights like going on strike or having a workers council.
    There were several instances where church-run employers fired unwanted personnel for divorcing, remarrying or even marrying a muslim.
    I personally put off leaving the catholic church for several years as I was employed as a nurse help by the Caritas and they’d have fired me for leaving church.
    I left after I stopped working for them two years ago, meaning I will not be employed by 40% of german hospitals in the future.
    In my current hometown there are 3 hospitals. Two of them won’t employ me.
    There is a campaign aimed at revoking discriminatory legislation favoring the church: http://www.gerdia.de/

  318. says

    keenacat

    I have a lesbian friend who used to work for the RCC in the Rhineland. And while she was studying to become a religious education teacher, she was held up as a model to the other students because she lived with a female roommate and not in sin (which presumably might get you fired from a teaching position, or rather would cause the church to rescind your teaching permit, effectively barring the state from employing you as a religion teacher). Little did they know that the so-called roommate was her girlfriend.

    The church is a so-called “Tendenzbetrieb”, meaning they can officially discriminate against people on grounds of religious differences. They will, however, usually take muslims, hindus, jews or whatever, but nobody who left the church.

    This is what really drives me insane. I’ve been wanting to write more about this on my blog which (in theory) is dedicated to document religious privilege in Europe. Any chance I can get you to write a guest blog (at any point in time, of course)?

  319. keenacat says

    Uh, I guess I could do that. I’m not the most skilled writer, but if you give me an outline I’ll see what I can do.

  321. Mattir says

    This is cross posted from Love Joy Feminism, but I thought it might be of some interest here as well.

    Mattir says:
    March 15, 2012 at 10:29 am
    I think one of the things homeschooling does best is teach people to value education. So for those of you with gaps in your education, I offer the Mattir Family Homeschool motto:

    If you’re not learning, you’re probably dead.

    If you feel like your education in literature, science, math, art history, music, or typing skills was lacking, procure a good intro-level college textbooks on the topic and have at it. I see so many kids in my work as a naturalist who have checked out of education by the time they’re nine or ten years old, and it’s appallingly sad. It’s made me add some corrective philosophy to my summer camp programs – I talk about the above motto and tell the kids that learning is, bar none, the single most pleasurable thing that humans do, and slide some decent modeling of curiosity and “I don’t know, let’s find out” into my discussions with the kids.

    I never read Crime and Punishment in school, or had a grasp of the elegance of arithmetic patterns, or knew anything at all about art history. I didn’t learn to yodel. I didn’t know much about geology or paleontology. I’ve learned about all of these things in the last 10 years.

    Sometimes I think that homeschooling is inherently subversive of the authoritarian message parents are trying to convey by homeschooling. You’re teaching kids, in extreme violation of societal norms, that they can learn without formal schools. Even if you don’t teach them about evolution or the history of the nude in art, or whatever, you are teaching them that societal norms can and should be challenged, and it’s impossible to prevent people from extending this to the norms of the evangelical world – I certainly know plenty of adults who were homeschooled (including you, Katherine!) who seem to have acquired fantastic insight into the power of cultural norms and the ability of the individual to resist them.

    Also, for the record, there are plenty of people who should not homeschool their kids, but generally the issue is the quality of the parent-child relationship, NOT the educational program per se. My parents homeschooled my younger brother, and he’s never recovered. I recently reamed out an older neighbor who said she thought about reporting my parents for neglect and “felt terrible” about what was done to him – I did not make said neighbor feel any better about her nagging guilt. But I homeschool my kids, in the same physical location, even, and my kids are completely different from my brother – happy, curious, not beaten or neglected or (I suspect) molested by neighbors, able to go to Reason Rally or Skepticon and hold their own, arm wrestle with JT Eberhard in a bar late at night, talk with PZ Myers without babbling, ask interesting questions, and generally thrive. The difference is that I’ve done a boatload of work on learning to be a good parent and a sane adult, and I view homeschooling as a job rather than something that just happens.

    So go out and learn something today, Hordlings!

  324. keenacat says

    E-Mail interview sounds pretty nice to me. I think I’ll schedule this for after my exams, does second half of may sound good to you?

  325. says

    keenacat,

    of course. I may or may not be in Cologne, if you are going to be there, we might do it there. Though still need to sort out some financial and accommodational issues.

    Also, I need to get done with my entry on Joachim Gauck before he is elected president, GAH..

  326. says

    Sometimes I think that homeschooling is inherently subversive of the authoritarian message parents are trying to convey by homeschooling. You’re teaching kids, in extreme violation of societal norms, that they can learn without formal schools. Even if you don’t teach them about evolution or the history of the nude in art, or whatever, you are teaching them that societal norms can and should be challenged, and it’s impossible to prevent people from extending this to the norms of the evangelical world – I certainly know plenty of adults who were homeschooled (including you, Katherine!) who seem to have acquired fantastic insight into the power of cultural norms and the ability of the individual to resist them.

    Mattir, what an intriguing thought!

    Although, I would guess that the power of parental disapproval is still very influential in how far many children allow their thinking to stray from the “correct” kind of resistance to the norms society supposedly sets out. Still, it is a hopeful idea that homeschooling might also be laying the groundwork for real independent thinking, in spite of many parents’ intentions.

  327. Ogvorbis: Now With 98% Less Intellectual Curiousity! says

    You’re teaching kids, in extreme violation of societal norms, that they can learn without formal schools.

    Which, I might add, you can also do with children in public school. I think having a large home library, with no limits on which books may be perused, had a lot to do with it. We didn’t think about it that way at the time but, in retrospect, that’s how it worked out.

  328. A. R says

    I can vouch for the educational benefits of unlimited access to books. In fact, reading had me doubting religion at age 10, explaining evolution to my teachers at age five, and doing kitchen chemistry (and basement biology) at age three. There is no better educational tool than unlimited access to knowledge at an early age, when kids are still curious beyond belief (yeah there’s a pun there if you think about it)

  329. ChasCPeterson says

    the pix in #280 and #288 are, I believe, of different species. 288 is definitely a short-tailed shrew, but the animal in question (280) is a vole of some kind.
    If you have the carcass, check for giant rodent incisors. Voles are rodents, shrews aren’t.

  331. carlie says

    The sad thing about Twitter is how it turns interesting celebrities into just more people who say dumb shit.

    From Alton Brown (the last two in response to comments resulting from the first two:

    Sex, pizza, BBQ potato chips, brownies…all good even when they’re bad.

    And yes…I realize that this is a man’s point of view…and there’s not one single man out there who would disagree…not a real one anyway

    Political correctness and media culture has, by and large, neutered us all.

    I have removed the offending line of tweets and will from now on remember my place. Just cook the freakin’ food. Fine. Biscuits it is.

  332. says

    Well, I for one give a shit that the killer was just 14 at that time.
    14 years old.

    I don’t.

    Not supposed mature enough to drive a car, not mature enough to be able to make a sensible decission about buying a beer.

    Driving, and being able to handle one’s liquor, both require skills that advance with brain development.

    Knowing that you shouldn’t murder people in cold blood is a matter of right and wrong that most children above the age of… oh, I dunno, eight? can grasp.

    When a teenager posts a photo of himself or herself on Facebook smoking dope, mooning the camera, etc., that’s “poor judgment.”

    When a teenage boy murders another teenager for threatening his masculinity, that goes considerably beyond poor judgment.

    I’m persuadable that adult charges were not the right approach in this case, and obviously some psychiatric intervention is called for, but the idea that a cold-blooded killer — and a cold-blooded killer whose victim was blamed and despised by many just for who he was, at that — should not be locked up for a long time because he’s 14 rather than 18, quite frankly, brings on a serious case of red mist.

    I don’t want that kid on the street.

  334. magic pants, celestial slacker says

    The smiling white geezer suit and tie bible squad is at my campus handing out bibles. I thought of standing next to them and handing out buckets of stones and saying, “here, you’ll need these – see Leviticus”.

  335. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Carlie: Alton Brown has become a real asshole since losing a lot of weight. The fatphobia is really offputting. Fatphobia being connected with misogyny and other nasty prejudices, that tweet doesn’t shock me.

    I saw those tweets too.

    You realize that Alton Brown is a born again Christian? Right?

  336. A. R says

    Magic pants: Yes, I do rather dislike it when the fundies denigrate suits like that. I wear one everyday, and occasionally get mistaken for a fundy.

  338. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Well honestly I didn’t give a shit about his religious leanings as long as it didn’t interfere with the show. Which it didn’t.

    His tweeting, well that’s something else.

  340. janine says

    It is good that the Whirled Nut Daily is defending The Lost Cause.

    Scalawag Pervert Lie Center

    They hate Jesus Christ and they hate the South.

    That is all you need to know.

    That logo should read “Made In The CSA”.

    And just so you know, the link goes to WND.

  341. Ogvorbis: Now With 98% Less Intellectual Curiousity! says

    Saw a bumper sticker in the parking lot (on a large pickup truck with Texas plates): “Keep Clowns in the Circus! Vote Democrat!”

  342. Ariaflame, BSc, BF, PhD says

    Some one I know who works as a doctor, ER stuff that I remember, once said something along the lines of ‘if you pretend that teenagers are like someone who has had a particular type of brain damage then suddenly their actions make a lot more sense.’. There is a lot of brain rewriting etc going on during puberty, and while this does not excuse bad behaviour and stupid decisions, expecting them to be fully sane and mature adults may be asking a bit much.

  343. A. R says

    Sex, pizza, BBQ potato chips, brownies…all good even when they’re bad.

    And yes…I realize that this is a man’s point of view…and there’s not one single man out there who would disagree…not a real one anyway

    Political correctness and media culture has, by and large, neutered us all.

    Wow. I actually expected better from him. Then again, I didn’t know about the born-again bit.

  344. says

    What a nice afternoon.
    The weather was gorgeous and I decided to take the kids to the Zoo.
    Our Zoo is small, it’s actually the broom-cupboard of European Zoos where they park their animals, so it’s totally right for a sunny afternoon out.
    Now they’re both asleep and I need to wake them for dinner

    keenancat

    In my profession (medicine) quite a few also stay in the church since neither the Diakonisches Werk (lutheran) nor the Caritas (catholic) will employ people who left the church.

    Well, depends how urgently they need them. My sister who was never a member of a church works for a mobile care centre that is owned by Caritas and Diakonie jointly.
    The European Court has continously slapped them in the past and I have quite some hopes that within the next two decades they’ll have to limit their discrimination to parts that directly affect their core business.

    +++++

    Driving, and being able to handle one’s liquor, both require skills that advance with brain development.

    Knowing that you shouldn’t murder people in cold blood is a matter of right and wrong that most children above the age of… oh, I dunno, eight? can grasp.

    Yes, and I have hardly ever met anybody who says that murder is OK. Problem is that many people are OK with killing as long as it’s not murder.

    When a teenager posts a photo of himself or herself on Facebook smoking dope, mooning the camera, etc., that’s “poor judgment.”

    So, you agree that they’re not fully able to fully grasp the consequences of their actions.
    But you obviously only do so when it comes to trivial actions.
    When it comes to serious actions you act as if they’re just short adults with the cognitive, mental, social, emotional and logical skills of an adult.
    Not to mention the liberty of adults.

    I’m persuadable that adult charges were not the right approach in this case, and obviously some psychiatric intervention is called for, but the idea that a cold-blooded killer — and a cold-blooded killer whose victim was blamed and despised by many just for who he was, at that — should not be locked up for a long time because he’s 14 rather than 18, quite frankly, brings on a serious case of red mist.

    That’s the thing: you see him as a cold-blooded killer, judging him from what you fucking know from a newspaper article. You have no clue what went on in his head.
    And dehumanizing him just the same way he dehumanized his victim means that now you’re justified in screaming for locking him up for a long time. Only that you’re probably against death penalty.

    I don’t want that kid on the street.

    Neither do I. I want him in the care of compassionate and dedicated adults who work with him on his more than obvious issues so that he can one day integrate into society again. Only that I have not much hope that this will happen.
    He’ll be locked away, raped, broken and when he gets out he’ll probably spend the rest of his life hurting more people and being hurt more. But yeah, justice will be served.

  347. magic pants, celestial slacker says

    A.R., I look like a graying undergraduate, as I’ve never figured out what “postdoc attire” should mean.

    Something about Alton was always slightly off-putting to me. My favorite show is “Chopped” and I like the host, Ted Allen. I am guessing all of you fellow foodies saw his video on the onion?

  348. says

    So, you agree that they’re not fully able to fully grasp the consequences of their actions.

    But you obviously only do so when it comes to trivial actions.

    Gosh, it couldn’t be that certain serious actions tend to be black-and-white enough that even young children can grasp their severity, could it?

    And dehumanizing him

    Yeah, no. “Cold-blooded killer” describes what McInerney did quite accurately.

    On the morning of February 12, 2008, McInerney was witnessed repeatedly looking at King during a class in a computer laboratory. At approximately 8:15 a.m local time, McInerney withdrew from his backpack a .22-caliber revolver belonging to relatives and shot King twice in the back of the head.[13][14][15] Following the shooting, McInerney tossed the handgun on the floor and walked from the classroom. He was apprehended by police about seven minutes later and five blocks away from the school campus.[1][11]

    Sorry if I don’t use the proper euphemisms to describe Ickle Widdle Pweshus Chyldrun™ who, you know, thuggishly kill other kids.

  350. carlie says

    I didn’t know about Alton’s Christianity. It isn’t that big a surprise to me, as most people in this country are at least nominal Christians. Just a little disappointing. Not quite as disappointing as Rick Warren officiating at Bill Nye’s wedding.

  351. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    There is a lot of brain rewriting etc going on during puberty, and while this does not excuse bad behaviour and stupid decisions, expecting them to be fully sane and mature adults may be asking a bit much.

    I don’t know that expecting them not to kill people is the same as “expecting them to be fully sane and mature adults.”

  353. janine says

    Not quite as disappointing as Rick Warren officiating at Bill Nye’s wedding.

    What? Really?

    Looks it up.

    Old news. And it seems that the marriage was never legal. And filled with problems.

  356. Mattir says

    Daisy Cutter – teens have diminished abilities to delay gratification and control impulses – that is basic neuroscience, not Cutesy Widdle Snookums™ logic. The problem, as I see it, is the different emotional responses that we have to words like “murder” or “manslaughter” or “homicide” – no one is saying that a kid who kills another kid shouldn’t be confined, but insisting that they get treated the same as an adult and go into the adult prison system is ridiculous. The labeling of something as muder or manslaughter does not speak to the seriousness of the act, but to the mental factors that went into the perpetrator’s decision to kill and to the government’s response to the crime. Until VERY recently, the United States KILLED children who committed homicide.

    Also, don’t you suspect that there might be a wee bit of, um, trauma and severely bad parenting in the history of someone who would kill another person because they suggested a sexual act? Are you really saying that if I respond to a sexually aggressive person violently because I was molested as a child, I deserve the same punishment as someone without such a history who planned the violence ahead of time without any such emotional provocation and then carried out the attack?

    For the record, I think that the same factors should be taken into consideration with adult defendents – we should not kill people (or imprison them for decades) without weighing the history that led up to the crime along with the need to protect society from criminal attacks.

  357. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    I imagine McInerney could understand the consequences of his actions, but I also think it’s much less likely that he would have reacted this way if the two of them were 24 and 25 instead of 14 and 15.

    A 24 year old is typically much more able to work through their emotions and rationally assess just what is really worth going to prison for.

    Anyway I seriously doubt the utility of holding anyone past age 30 for a crime they committed at age 14, and 30 is the high end of what I consider reasonable. I think if this kid was going to be locked up until he was 25 instead of 35, I’d feel a lot more comfortable about it.

  359. Mattir says

    I would like to point out that I am STRONGLY agreeing with SG, just for what it’s worth.

    I had a criminal law professor who advocated that the “not guilty by reason of insanity” verdict should be replaced with “guilty but mentally ill”, so as to remove the knee-jerk reaction that we have to the phrase “not guilty”. “Guilty but…” would allow consideration of intent and other non-magical factors during the sentencing phase, which is, IMO, where it belongs, since that’s where the “keeping society safe” and “punishment” issues should belong.

  360. keenacat says

    Well, depends how urgently they need them. My sister who was never a member of a church works for a mobile care centre that is owned by Caritas and Diakonie jointly.

    That’s a different situation. People who did never belong to a church in the first place will generally be treated like somebody who is a muslim, for instance.
    This is what the woman at human resources told me when I started working at the Diakonie hospital:
    They would not particularly care if I was catholic or lutheran and would employ people who’d never been in a church or were adherents of the other major religions. But if I would leave the church they’d have to fire me and would not reemploy me until I got back into the church.

    Given the current job market situation for medical professionals (a severe lack of competent nurses and doctors) they can’t be too picky. But having left the church is the one religious decision that almost no church facility will tolerate, even if they can’t get anyone else to do the job.

    Divorce, homosexuality or remarrying will only concern the catholics but they usually reserve firing for this reason to people they absolutely want to get rid of.

  361. Dhorvath, OM says

    It may be that I could see things on that level Mattir and SG, although I tend to see things a step further: who is in jail? What effects greater change in a person, the public ordeal of a trial, or the new society they are thrust into by way of incarceration? I have little doubt that prison is a punishment, but I doubt the person who committed the crime is actually available to be punished. Once we start talking about a teen, where it is even more arguable that they are changing rapidly in terms of outlook, motivation, and restraint, I am not at all convinced about the utility of long term incarceration regardless of the environment in which they are held.
    ___

    (Yes, thanks for the reminder, I have read and am absorbing.)

  364. says

    I had a criminal law professor who advocated that the “not guilty by reason of insanity” verdict should be replaced with “guilty but mentally ill”, so as to remove the knee-jerk reaction that we have to the phrase “not guilty”. “Guilty but…” would allow consideration of intent and other non-magical factors during the sentencing phase, which is, IMO, where it belongs, since that’s where the “keeping society safe” and “punishment” issues should belong.

    I think that rhetorically that’s a horribly idea. Would further stigmatization of the mentally ill and prompt legislation to imprison patients upon discharge because now they’re sane enough to be punished. I think we should remove the language of the verdicts and just change it to “Finds against defendant” and “Does not find against defendant”

  366. A. R says

    Ing: I’m not certain, but there is a Dispatches thread he posted on today. I mentioned to him that we miss him.

  367. Mattir says

    Yeah, but the system we have right now makes it virtually impossible for a defendent to assert mental illness as a mitigating factor, even in the punishment phases of a trial. Guilty but (or guilty and) would change some of the hostility provoked by the “not guilty” phrasing. Also, I’m not sure that increasing prejudice against mental illness is actually possible short of reinstating witch burning for disorganized schizophrenia or something, and the NGRI plea already does a fine job of convincing some people that mental illness is simply a way to “get away” with committing crimes.

    But yes, “finds for” and “finds against” would be even nicer phrasing of the same idea.

  368. chigau (√-1) says

    It wouldn’t need to be “guilty but mentally ill”,
    it could be “guilty but in need of …”
    (I was going to say “reeducation” (wants a better word))

  371. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    http://www.thestate.com/2012/03/06/2179432/laurens-county-gop-oks-purity.html

    A resolution by the Laurens County Republican Party is raising eyebrows – and questions – about what it means to be a Republican in South Carolina.
    At issue is a “purity” pledge – quickly rejected as illegal by the state GOP – that the Upstate county’s party approved Feb. 28, requiring those who file to run in the June 12 Republican primary to promise they did not have premarital sex, will be faithful to their spouses and will not watch porn while also fighting to protect gun rights.
    The 28-point pledge also requires candidates to:
    Today’s news video

    • Oppose abortion, in any circumstances
    • Endorse the ideas of balanced state and federal budgets
    • Hold a high regard for U.S. sovereignty and be committed to peace through “strength in foreign policy”
    • Not favor any government action to allow civil unions by same-sex couples
    “The purpose of the resolution was to try to ensure that candidates who wish to file to run on the ticket simply support the party’s platform,” said Bobby Smith, chairman of the Laurens County Republican Party, adding the county party also hopes to interview potential candidates. “Our party has had much success over the past few years, and we want to make sure they uphold the party’s principles if running on the party’s ticket.”

  372. Mattir says

    OK, I understand community outreach, but why the fuck is the Department of Justice and the FBI sponsoring an event to discuss female modesty in various religious traditions?

    The Howard University School of Divinity, Masjid Muhammad, the Muslim Public Affairs Council, the United States Attorney’s Office for the District of Columbia, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation-Washington Field Office are hosting a program entitled, “The Modesty We Share: A Women’s Interfaith Dialogue” during Women’s History Month.

    To respond to discrimination against our Muslim neighbors, the purpose of this symposium is to emphasize commonalities between the Muslim community and the broader D.C. community. One such commonalty is the religious practice of modesty in dress and head covering, a practice that unites women across many religious communities. We are hoping that when people realize that these practices, in varying degrees, are shared by a variety religious traditions, it will bring greater understanding towards the Islamic tradition of wearing a burqa and hijab. We will explore these issues in a panel discussion consisting of women from various faiths who will discuss the significance of modest dress or head covering in their religious practice. The event will be held on March 19, 2012 at Howard University School of Divinity from 6:30 p.m. to 8:30 p.m. This panel promises to be an informative and community-building event!

    Here’s the flyer.

  375. Dhorvath, OM says

    A.R.
    Walton is his own person, let him do what he feels comfortable doing. Trying to get him to come back is not an idea that I can support despite enjoying his presence.

  377. Sili says

    Sorry if I don’t use the proper euphemisms to describe Ickle Widdle Pweshus Chyldrun™ who, you know, thuggishly kill other kids.

    Thuggishly killing other kids might have something to do with ready access to more than scrunched up balls of paper.

    It must be a sign of my getting old, that I’m surprised anyone could not know about the Bulger killing.

  378. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    A friend brought over some of his grandmother’s five year old homemade saskatoon berry wine for a ‘tasting’ last night-

    Now I know why they spit it out into a bucket at wine tastings! ugh. But don’t feel sorry for me, I did it to myself.

  379. Mattir says

    Sili, stuff like the Bulger case happens regularly, it’s just that the Bulger case was a photogenic toddler (white even), and the event was caught on camera. Young sociopaths are rare, but not that rare.

  380. says

    Starstuff
    Shit. I hope they are not too badly hurt. Stay safe.

    ++++++

    On the morning of February 12, 2008, McInerney was witnessed repeatedly looking at King during a class in a computer laboratory. At approximately 8:15 a.m local time, McInerney withdrew from his backpack a .22-caliber revolver belonging to relatives and shot King twice in the back of the head.[13][14][15] Following the shooting, McInerney tossed the handgun on the floor and walked from the classroom. He was apprehended by police about seven minutes later and five blocks away from the school campus.[1][11]

    Yes, that absolutely fits the definition of cold-blooded killer: throws away the gun and walks away slowly without hiding so the police can get them.
    Hollywood needs to seriously rewrite their scripts.
    Your posts are full of desire for revenge, but they seriously lack education in neuroscience and psychology, especially child/adolescent psychology.
    People here are not making shit up about diminished ability to make decissions/ forsee consequences, those are well established facts.And yes, you keep ignoring the fact that although most people agree that murder is wrong, in order to recognize that “this is wrong and I’m doing it anyway”, the killer needs to view his deed as murder.
    Almost everybody has some ideas about “justified killing”. Most people would put it in the self-defense/defense of others department.
    Other people’s ideas are different and teenagers typically don’t have a well thought out moral compass that goes beyond black and white.
    So, yes, if you just want to yell, it’s easy.
    Question is who is helped by that.

  381. Sili says

    Ah. My privilege is showing. I remember Bulger because of all the hullabaloo (like the girl who disappeared on a holiday some years ago – Madeleine Something, I think).

    But I never notice all the others.

    We had a similar story in Denmark in the 60es: Cute photogenic girl taken from her pram – lossa interest in the press. Tearful reünion after a while.

    Baby boy with less cute name: never found. Never much talked about.

    Haven’t watched the latest Melissa Harris-Perrys, but wasn’t one of the segments about how black people’s disappearances are underreported?

  382. says

    There was talk on this thread of “guilty but mentally ill” as a better replacement for “not guilty by reason of insanity” in murder trials, so I was surprised to run across a verdict that is exactly that in Georgia concerning Hemy Neuman who shot someone outside a daycare center in 2010 (link to CNN’s report).

    The report states:

    The DeKalb County jury had three options, after beginning deliberations Tuesday: to find Neuman guilty of murder, to find him guilty but mentally ill or to find him not guilty by reason of insanity, as he’d pleaded.

    [The second option] mandates that Neuman be evaluated in prison for mental illness. He would then be treated while being incarcerated, should he be found to be mentally ill.

  383. KG says

    You know, when Americans say that the border is a pesky nuisance, wouldn’t it be nice to do away with it and I suggest petitioning for admittance to the Dominion as the Province of Lower Saskatchewan, there’s always a long pause. – Markita Lynda

    It’s amusing that the possibility of the border disappearing is so often raised, since it must be one of the most stable international frontiers in the world – the main border dates from 1846 (between the USA and British North America), and the Alaskan border has been unchanged since the American purchase from Russia in 1867. There aren’t very many borders in Europe that old.

  386. says

    He would then be treated while being incarcerated, should he be found to be mentally ill.

    Except that doesn’t happen. Many mental illnesses will just confirm why someone should be paranoid, sociopath, &c.

    This does not help society or the individual.

    People under 18 should NEVER be tried as adults, I don’t care how heinous the crime is. Modify the juvenile system, don’t fucking throw sheep to the wolves.

  387. David Marjanović says

    Only caught up till comment 300.

    ░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░

    Brazilian police recruit Batman to lower city’s crime rate.

    Slovak town has Batman, too, and he probably does more good than the real one or at least less collateral damage!

    ░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░

    “You’re a skeptic? I’m skeptical of that! LOLOLOL”
    [What they’re thinking: I’m so clever and funny!]
    [What I’m thinking: If I hear that lame “joke” one more time, I will break something!]

    You can simply provide evidence of your skepticism. That’s how skepticism works!

    Then you can go all fancy and call yourself a postpositivist.

    What I’m thinking: Ow, my brain is trying to escape this conversation by beating itself against the side of my skull.

    :-D

    Utah’s current abstinence “centered” curriculum in opt-in only. All that conservative parents need to do to keep their kids ignorant is just not sign the permission slips. Yet more than 97% of Utah parents go through the trouble to opt their kids in ever year.

    :-o Awesome! Almost restores my faith in humanity and stuff!

    Is there an actual metric for measuring convergence?

    No.

    baleen being its own structure (composed of keratin like claws/hair)

    BTW, baleen seems to have originated as triangular plates that functioned as extra teeth between the more and more widely spaced real teeth. The snouts got longer and longer, and the baleen whales never discovered the trick of how to get out of the placental* tooth formula.

    * Well, no, boreo(eu)therian, because at least hyraxes and sea cows do retain five premolars instead of just four.

    nompliment (not a compliment)

    *steal* :-)

    I submit that the swan is very much like a bipedal scaled-down brachiosaur. That can fly.

    + 1

    Interestingly, however, a recently introduced version of evolutionary theory emphasizes that evolution is actually an orderly and predictable process (Conway-Morris, 2005).

    Yeah. It’s also wrong.

    Closely related or otherwise similar animals exposed to the same selection pressures will converge a lot. Different animals exposed to the same selection pressures can end up with wildly different forms. Saber-toothed mammals are a dime a dozen, but there has never been a saber-toothed theropod dinosaur, or one with so much as any canine-like teeth unless you count the entire upper jaw as a caniniform region. Crocodiles and tuataras are big on the caniniform teeth, having solid skulls like mammals; squamates (“lizards”, snakes) always lack them (unless we count the poison-injecting teeth of some snakes; they’re the only teeth in the entire upper jaw!), probably because they have mobile skulls.

    Though I suppose making really really really really sure that students understand natural selection is not random wouldn’t be controversial.

    …Yeah.

    May 15th – August 3rd (yes, I will be doing class-work during my vacation; again)

    Thank you, that’s the question I’ve been asking you for about 2 months now. :-)

    So the university year begins on August 6th?

    and doesn’t Vic Stenger have an argument that the fundamental constants might be dependent on each other?

    They all might, but the argument he’s famous for (AFAIK) is that he did computer simulations of modifying more than one fundamental constant at once. If you mess with two at the same time, no less than 21 % of the resulting universes are habitable for Life As We Know It.

    Another vote for missing blf and Walton. I hope neither of them is [causing] a ton of pandemonium and not sharing.

    Seconded.

    Is that all? Okay. I just got a weird religious vibe froma book review.

    He does give off that ever-so-slightly religious vibe even in person (I’ve heard him give a talk twice, and even got to ask questions).

    I’ll be at Reason Rally – I’ll be the crazy blissed out lady with the drop spindle and a slew of teens…

    ^_^ You know, I really should have organized a transatlantic trip just to see that.

    That blew my mind, that someone would argue the absence of adultery in the 10 Commandments. Especially as he lives in a heavily fundie state.

    It certainly blows mine!

    And if I’m going to mention seafood, this is teh awesome:

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2010/04/07/gut-bacteria-in-japanese-people-borrowed-sushi-digesting-genes-from-ocean-bacteria/

    QFT!

    Are you a slut?

    Check this out.

    Warning: they define “slut” as a state of mind. By that definition, even I am one. Any more questions?

    …On the other hand… maybe I should add “the Virgin Slut” to my name tomorrow. Hmmmm.

    *scratching head*

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=623149686589&set=a.606439638659.2136945.71804321

    :-o Obvious shrew. Totally pointed snout, like a mole. There’s not even really space for gnawing incisors!

    Did you ever see her teeth?

    Good morning
    I’m sorry to inform you that James Bond failed and the world is gone.
    At least when I look out of my windows. Nothing but a soft white.

    That’s awesome. Over here, it’s a soft gray.

    When a teacher reported that she’d heard that kids talk about beating the boy up, the door was slammed in her face.

    *facepalm*

    Or where on earth the gun came from.

    Yeah. Isn’t it quite literally criminal, even in the USA, to let a 14-year-old have access to a gun?

  388. says

    I have questions on two separate issues.

    – Punishment. The literature seems mixed on its effectiveness, depending on method and circumstances. Do people here disdain it entirely? Those who say yes, does that mean you would never advocate for it at all, for anything, ranging from revoking certain privileges from children for various infractions (when reinforcement has failed), to life imprisonment for crimes against humanity?

    – Assuming for the sake of argument that money and political will are no objects, and that therefore we can temporarily sequester people who have committed atrocities from the general public and put them through a humane and supposedly effective course of treatment to unfuck-up their heads, what is to be done with the people who cannot be trusted not to harm others once this period of sequestration and treatment is over?

    For those who were unfamiliar with the Bulger case and did not read A.R’s link, the two 10-year-old murderers seem to have been given very humane and comprehensive treatment during their childhood incarcerations. (I am not saying they should have been treated abusively, mind you.) One of them, Jon Venables, was sent back to prison in early adulthood for sexually predatory behavior toward children.

    As Mattir wrote, neglectful and/or abusive parenting is often the cause of antisocial behavior (although some sociopaths were not abused). Once we bring about Pharyngutopia, no child will ever be abused again. In the meantime, what do we do with violent sociopaths or psychopaths when the state-of-the-art methods for making them safe to roam the streets have failed?

    I abhor such human-rights abuses as prison rape, chain gangs, the lash, solitary confinement, and torture. I am not convinced that the alleged inhumanity of separating a dangerous person from society per se outweighs the protection it affords to others.

    On a side note, while empathy should not be a zero-sum game between an assailant and a victim, that is always the way it seems to play out. This seems especially true when the assailant is more privileged than the victim. During the Hugo Schwyzer incident, to which I refer because it is very recent, I could not get away even on certain feminist blogs from people eager to bandy about concepts of transformative justice in order to derail conversations about protecting women from predators. It was more important for them to continue to be able to see the assailant in some kind of positive light than it was for them to ascertain that the assailant would not offend again.

    So, yes, I am on my guard during conversations about centering the humanity of someone of whatever age who commits rape, torture, or murder. I am confident that the Horde, or at least the majority of it, can avoid falling into the zero-sum trap. I am not at all confident that everybody involved in the justice system can.

  389. says

    David M.:

    Isn’t it quite literally criminal, even in the USA, to let a 14-year-old have access to a gun?

    Not if they have parental permission. I do not know which states, if any, also mandate safety classes.

    It used to be fairly common, I’ve heard, for boys in rural areas to bring their guns to school during hunting season. The guns were typically confiscated during the school day and returned to the boys after school.

  390. David Marjanović says

    People under 18 should NEVER be tried as adults, I don’t care how heinous the crime is.

    Seconded.

  391. says

    Looks like our junior christian apologist is back on my Freethinkers group’s FB page. This is what he had to say about abortion (in response to someone else) [emphasis mine]:

    “They did not deny him the use of their body to the detriment of their health, mobility, and well-being for nine months.”

    So? The case is analogous in that there was an obligation for a person to devote his own time and resources to care for someone who he didn’t consent to. He had an obligation to devote his time, his property, his resources, and his labor to care for the individual. That one happens to be in the body and another outside is not relevant.

    ” No one has the right to use your body to maintain itself [sic?] without your consent.”

    1) Consent to sex is consent to pregnancy, since reproduction is the purpose of sex. So even if I were to grant your point, it extends only to cases of rape.

    2) This assumes that moral obligations are all voluntary, but this ignores child support laws, in which the father is obligated to support his child precisely because of his relationship to the child — regardless of whether or not he consented. By analogy, the same applies to the mother, regardless of whether or not she consented. This ignores special family obligations that arise out of the parent-child relationship.

    3) Even if the unborn do not have a claim to the mother’s body, this does not imply that we can ill them. That it is permissible for the mother to remove the child from her body does not mean that she can also kill it. This confuses killing with letting die. So again, even if I were to grant this, it does not follow that abortion is justified.

    I’m pretty much beyond trying to actually address any of his points, so I said this:

    ‎Tim, this is my advice to you: Go have some fucking (consensual) sex with someone (anyone; any kind of sex). Seriously, you might change your mind about it being “only for reproduction” if you had some more sex. In the meantime, the rest of us will continue to enjoy safe, fun, pregnancy-free, consensual sex.

    BTW, this guy really does not like me. I seem to make him sad and uncomfortable and everyone else hates him. Yet he still continues to comment on our FB page. I think he just likes the attention.

  393. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    I concur with Miss Daisy Cutter. Guy sounds fucking creepy.

  394. says

    David M: “If you mess with two at the same time, no less than 21 % of the resulting universes are habitable for Life As We Know It.”

    and yet no matter how many variables you add the universe as we know it still comes up p=1. ;-)
    +++++++++++++++++++

    “- Punishment. The literature seems mixed on its effectiveness, depending on method and circumstances.”

    Citation needed.

    I’m of the camp that incarceration is supposed to be rehabilitative, not punitive. Here in America we lost our way long ago, but there have been attempts to make it a more just world.
    +++++++++++++++++++
    Ing, you stomped on Walton, he stuck the flounce landing.

    I miss blf.

  395. says

    This is not someone I would want to be around IRL. The paragraph of yours I quoted sends up red flags for me.

    Oh, no one does. I actually got this message after the first time of dealing with him on our FB page:

    I’ve seen whats been going on over at the Freethinkers page and I’d like to send my condolences. We’ve had the same problem with them for a while over at the Undergraduate Philosophy Association page (They just post stuff about how same sex marriage is wrong and metaphysically impossible and [very bad] proofs of God’s existence), and trust me I understand your frustration as I have debated with them on moral and other philosophical issues several times. They’re just pig-headed apologists looking to piss off liberals, atheists and other groups they disagree with (hell, they’ve personally called me an immoral person simply by virtue of my agnostic atheism). My only advice in the future to avoid headaches is that you just ignore them and don’t feed them whenever they make comments (and tell others on the page to do the same) and they’ll eventually go away (otherwise they will NOT stop). I just wanted to message you to express my condolences as I’ve gone through the exact same thing and understand your frustration

    I actually told him that no one likes him when he was volunteering with the GAP (those anti-abortion people I protested a few weeks ago)… I’m not a nice person to idiots, bigots, or assholes.

  396. janine says

    Consent to sex is consent to pregnancy, since reproduction is the purpose of sex.

    I really hate this line. The lives that we now lead is so very different to what our ancestors lived, we do things with our bodies that have nothing to do with what they did in order to survive.

    Inform this joker that his hands were not made for typing and he should get off the computer right now.

  400. says

    Hi,

    I’m threadrupt (by which I mean I’m still following it, but just can’t reply to all the things I’d like to).

    Giliell, I sent you an email. Just in case it landed in a spam folder.

    PET, I’ve been wanting to join too. Can I join with a brandnew Facebook account?

  402. says

    Is Walton confirming that or just you?

    Everything I write is just me.

    Go back and look at the timeline of when Walton left.

    I drew a conclusion. Draw your own.

  406. says

    Ing: “someone had said later that he was just very busy with studies”
    “Well don’t speak for other people.”

    You get the irony, right?

    It’s not like you said you wished he would die, and wondered how soon that would be, like some folks here.

  410. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    while I agree that wishing death upon other commenters is unacceptable, I’m not sure what it has to do with Ing and Walton.

  411. says

    Ing, and all I did was point out to you your own words and the timeline.

    You did stomp on Walton, and he said he was outta here, and hasn’t been back since.

    And I didn’t do a damn thing but point that out.

  415. cicely ("Intriguingly Odd") says

    1) Consent to sex is consent to pregnancy, since reproduction is the purpose of sex.

    And yet, somehow, the logical reciprocal half of this—Consent to sex is consent to support any resulting child/ren to adulthood, and pay half of all pre-natal medical costs during pregnancy and delivery costs—never seems to get any traction with these guys. They want consequences-free sex—for them. IOW, to paraphrase something-or-other*, “My extra-marital sex is the only moral extra-marital sex”.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    *(And I think most of us here know what that something-or-other is….)
    –

  416. says

    Correlation is not necessarily causation Sailor.

    And being busy and not wanting to spend time here anymore are not mutually exclusive.

  421. says

    Yeah, it’s that Tim guy on my Freethinkers group’s facebook page. Total asshat. I’ve asked my group members to not seriously respond to them anymore. If you starve the trolls of attention, they’ll leave. Also, I’ve been very, very mean to them.

  422. A. R says

    StarStuff: Oh, ok. I was really looking forward to tearing into an MRA after the Pure Evil thread.

  425. says

    I could point the trolls over here if you’re really desperate, but I doubt anyone wants that kind of infestation. But, you can live vicariously through me. This was my final response to them:

    Tim and Czar, this is the end of your attention seeking on this facebook page. I’ve warned you before that this is not the place for you self-absorbed behavior.

    No one here will give you the attention you so clearly desire (because apparently you guys get off on this or something) from now on. You might just want to save yourself the effort and stop trying (maybe just leave the group).

    You both are pseudo-intellectual, attention seeking assholes that no one likes. You are not right, righteous, intellectually superior, morally superior, or better, smarter, or more rational than anyone here in any way. Quite frankly, you both can fuck off now, because like I said before, no one here has any obligation to respond to you (despite why your privileged existence might have previously indicated). This group is not for you. Read our description (closely please, as it seems likely to me that your reading comprehension probably isn’t that great): it does not say that we’re here to entertain idiotic, amateur christian apologists.

    This is my last serious response to either of you on this facebook page. Please don’t take this as an invitation to start another tedious debate focused on you, because it’s not.

    Now, this is for any group members reading this:
    Do not respond to these asshats any more. All they want is attention, and if we don’t give it to them, they’ll go away.

  428. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Starstuff: I think you were at the perfect meanness level.

  429. Ariaflame, BSc, BF, PhD says

    And being busy and not wanting to spend time here anymore are not mutually exclusive.

    This is true. And the only person who can actually say why they aren’t here is the Walton.

  430. says

    One of my group members came into the thread and fucking tried to apologize for the group. He’s a fucking self-righteous, condescending ass. I would very much like to kick him in his stupid fucking face. The asshole doesn’t even come to meetings, hardly ever posts to the FB page, and generally contributes nothing to the group. And he has the fucking nerve to come into this thread and apologize for my behavior. As if he can speak for the group. This group that he’s done nothing for, and I’ve put pretty much all of myself into. He acts as if I’m not a good leader? I’m the fucking reason this group is as big and organized as it is right now (we had so many people at the last meeting that we had to take chairs from other rooms, and even then people had to sit on the floor!). It was dying before the current president and I came alone. And then he just comes in after saying nothing for months and acts like he knows better than everyone else.

    I’m so angry that I might break something.

  431. SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant says

    Cross-posted from PET:

    Hey folks

    So… I need to ask the Horde’s help. My unemployment benefits were denied. I am appealing the decision, but it’s totally unknown whether I’ll be successful, and it’s highly unlikely it’ll happen before next weekend. I have been planning to go to the Reason Rally for months, counting on that income source. Now my plans are in jeopardy, also putting Bridget Donovan’s ride from Schenectady to DC at risk (she already booked the tickets). I’m hoping the Horde can pull a smaller version of the financial rescue y’all did back in December. I actually have found a bit of work, but it won’t start for a few weeks, and my expenses are much reduced these days. I only need about $200 to cover gas & food. If 20 people can send me $10 each, I’ll be in the clear. I’ve updated my Paypal account, it’s associated with the email sally lichtenstein 303 (all one word there) at yahoo dot com. Or, if you prefer to use snail mail, just message me and I’ll give you my new physical address.

    I hope this is the last time I have to ask you all for help. I hope I get to be the one helping out next time. Thanks!

  432. SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant says

    Update: the goal has been met and surpassed! Woot Pharyngula Horde! I’m going to meet so many of you, THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!

  434. chigau (√-1) says

    SallyStrange #433
    *cute overload*
    Teach your Mom to type, already!
    (that’s you on the right, right?)

  435. Hekuni Cat says

    SallyStrange,

    I just saw your post and was about to ask for your address before I read further. If you need additional funds, please give a holler.* I’m excited to know you are coming to Reason Rally and very much looking forward to meeting you.

    *But posting is probably more effective since I’m in Virginia and you’re not.

  437. amblebury says

    Also, Echidna, joining up for dinner at the GAC. I need to contact Wowbagger – will you be joining him?

    I’m probably heading out for dinner with Alethea and drbunsen, but my partner and two of our progeny will be attending. I think they’d like to hitch up with someone.

    How do we contact each other? I’m finding the forums to be a bit of a dog’s breakfast, to be honest.

    It might take me a while to reply, someone’s having a birthday ‘n shit.

  438. A. R says

    amblebury: I’m surprised to hear that the tears of small children and AIDS victims aren’t in there.

  439. SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant says

    Oh Chigau! You’re funny. The behbeh is my niece. No, I didn’t spawn while you weren’t paying attention.

    Kind of loving my non-breeding body (which is pretty fit since I’ve been running a lot since I moved) along with the fun times of taking care of the little one. Being an allomother is great!

  440. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    A.R: Didn’t the link say that the maker wouldn’t reveal the full list of ingredients?

    I’d frankly be shocked if they weren’t in there.

  441. A. R says

    Night horde! I probably won’t be on much over the weekend, as I’ve decided to lock myself in my lab.

  442. says

    Also, Echidna, joining up for dinner at the GAC. I need to contact Wowbagger – will you be joining him?

    She will, so can you please contact me asap before I put in for table thanks.

  444. Wowbagger, Madman of Insleyfarne says

    Yes, as Rorschach has noted, I’ll be at the dinner; not sure who else will be there, though – I thought Althea was coming to that? It doesn’t help that I’m losing track of who’s who in meatspace…

  447. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    I finished my paper and handed it in! Then I slept. A lot. Now I just woke up and it’s eleven. I don’t really know what to do with that. I have another paper due on Monday, which I haven’t started because I’ve been so wrapped up in this one. Eesh.

  452. Wowbagger, Madman of Insleyfarne says

    Err, my mistake, that one, I confused her with echidna lol…

    Why can’t you all have sensible, practical nyms like me!?

  454. says

    Good morning
    Woke up with a baaaad headache, but on the bright side it seems like one of those days my kids get dressed all by themself without me even asking.

    David M.

    …On the other hand… maybe I should add “the Virgin Slut” to my name tomorrow. Hmmmm.

    Sounds also like the most tasty non-alcoholic cocktail ever.

    ++++

    – Punishment. The literature seems mixed on its effectiveness, depending on method and circumstances. Do people here disdain it entirely?

    It depends.
    For most cases I prefer the concept of consequences, although I admit that this may sometimes be moot point about framing.
    “Punishment” is grounded on the principle that we make the wrongdoer hurt because we’re more powerfull than they are.
    If you think about the most basic spanking you’re getting exactly what I mean.
    Consequences is about making people see that their actions have indeed consequences. With children this usually means something related to the “crime”.
    I think the concept of serious consequences in society works best on people who aren’t actually criminals in areas that aren’t usually seen as crime.
    Driving in Switzerland is a pleasure. They have Draconian laws for speeding and frequent controls, therefore people really do obey the traffic rules.
    Driving in Germany is horrible. Fines are low, controls rare and people feel about their cars like Americans about their guns.
    But the idea of punishment is never going to deter a criminal from crime.

    what is to be done with the people who cannot be trusted not to harm others once this period of sequestration and treatment is over?

    Keep them confined in a humane institution. At this point society’s need outweighs theirs. Problem is that you can hardly say for a first offender. After an uproar about teens beating somebody to death (again) in a train station, there was (again) a huge debate about punishing first offenders harder and more quickly, because those who end up killing people are usually not first offenders. I read an interview with a criminologist at that point who said:
    Listen, of all those kids we see in court, 90% we never see again. Even after repeated offences there’s still a huge amount who then manages to break the cycle. Only a very small minority is going to end up commiting a serious crime. Problem is that we can’t tell who that is going to be.

    So, yes, I am on my guard during conversations about centering the humanity of someone of whatever age who commits rape, torture, or murder.

    Well, there’s a place and time for everything. Sometimes the conversation has to centre around the humanity of the criminal, especially when it is about their human rights and a fair trial and such.
    And sometimes it’s a dereailing tactic, like with Schwytzer, because he absolutely did not come off as somebody who “got the message”.
    Let me conclude this with an example about kids:
    Most kids will at some point hurt other kids
    Punishment makes them afraid of being caught again. It doesn’t teach them why hurting other kids is bad.
    Excessive punishment makes them a victim. It also doesn’t teach them taht hurting others is wrong. In fact it teaches them that hurting others is a question of power.
    The goal must be that they stop hurting other kids. If you can reliably predict that they got the message because you talked to them and such, why withhold dessert?
    And if the kid just doesn’t get the message, it’s absolutely justified to seperate them from the others.

    +++++++

    Consent to sex is consent to pregnancy, since reproduction is the purpose of sex.

    One of the most interesting and never to be answered questions to me is when and how our ancestors figured out that sex leads to pregnancies.
    And I’m absolutely convinced that that was the day they started to think about contraception.

    +++
    pelamun
    Got it. Was stuck in Spam indeed.

    Sally Strange
    Cuuuuute!.
    I need some friends to procreate cute little babies….
    (and before anybody starts yelling at me, I’m kidding)

  455. John Morales says

    Giliell,

    For most cases I prefer the concept of consequences, although I admit that this may sometimes be moot point about framing.
    “Punishment” is grounded on the principle that we make the wrongdoer hurt because we’re more powerfull than they are.

    I see the distinction.

    Driving in Switzerland is a pleasure. They have Draconian laws for speeding and frequent controls, therefore people really do obey the traffic rules.

    I don’t see the distinction between penalties enforced for breaching Draconian laws and punishment other than (possibly) that the penalties for non-compliance are specified ahead of time.

    (Sure, it’s financial, not physical punishment. Mostly.)

    Care to clarify?

  456. says

    I don’t see the distinction between penalties enforced for breaching Draconian laws and punishment other than (possibly) that the penalties for non-compliance are specified ahead of time.

    That’s why I said that although I generally prefer consequences, I don’t see punishment as “useless in all cases”. I probably didn’t make myself clear enough at this point.
    Sure, you can say that losing your driving license and 2 salaries is a consequence, but it’s also a punishment.
    Those things work best when embedded in a larger context, one that educated and shifts society’s perception of those things.
    Hardly anybody thinks that speeding is a crime. That’s why good people do it all the time.
    30 years ago hardly anybody considered drunk-driving a crime and people did it all the time. Outlawing it, screening for it, enforcing the law was part of a concerned attempt not only to protect people, but also to shift the moral window. Nowadays most people consider drunk-driving a crime. You don’t get sympathy for being caught.

  460. Gen Fury, Still Desolate and Deviant #1 says

    Thanks so much for the link to The Border House!

    Speaking of technology and our deficient little ladee brainz, can anyone recommend a good MMO, RPG part optional, to play that’s not infested by homophobic, sexist racists? Oh also, it must be free to play although I’ll shell out moneyz to buy the game if needed.

    I just can NOT take WOW’s community any more.

  461. Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferret says

    Arglebarglebargle

    Have been thread bankrupt for … 3 days? … something.

    Work work work work work

    In other news, ImageJ (despite its WTF name) is an amazing program. I’ve been making lots of pretties.

    ____
    When it comes to minors who commit offenses, I think it is EXTREMELY important to consider their home life. A kid who acts out on another kid the beatings he sees his father give his mother should not be treated the same as a kid who delivers an identical beating but doesn’t come from an abusive home.
    I also completely agree with those that have pointed out that the risk/benefit calculator in the brain of an adolescent isn’t fully developed, leading to skewed analyses, and the point that 90% of juvenile offenders never re-offend.
    The best way to make a juvenile offender re-offend is to put them into a prison, deny them education, brutalize them, have their records chase them for the rest of their lives, and deny them good role models.
    FWIW, my views on adults who commit crimes are not that different from kids. Background, home life and other circumstances must be considered (this should not be optional!) – the punitive bent of the American criminal justice system is horrific.

    ____
    I’ve mentioned this before, but: I’m heading west this evening, heading towards NE Ohio. I’ll be going through NW New York and NW Pennsylvania along 90, and then back again on Sunday afternoon/evening. Anyone who wants to meet up for coffee/etc, please drop me a line.

    ___
    Sally, I’m glad you got what you need! This here – the community of the Horde – is (IMO) the solution to the pernicious ability of religious groups to survive. Churches provide the social base of communities, help out those in need, etc, which is why many people who don’t have faith find it so hard – if not impossible – to leave. Replicating the model of community is absolutely necessary for freeing minds from the church’s clutches. That we’ve built something here, as small as it is, warms the cockles of my heart.

  462. walton says

    I only just saw this, since I haven’t been reading TET for quite a while.

    Ing: Don’t worry. It certainly wasn’t because of you that I left! I’m really sorry if I gave that impression. It wasn’t your fault at all. I just needed to take some time out from controversy.

    FWIW, I’m sorry for yelling at you. I was having something of a breakdown at the time. (And have since been diagnosed with a bipolar spectrum disorder, which explains a lot about my life thus far. I’m now on a new medication which seems to be working much better. I visited DC last weekend and met with several Pharyngulites, and they can confirm that I’m doing ok at the moment.)

  463. birgerjohansson says

    Drive-by postings:

    “Amina Filali, Morocco Rape Victim, Commits Suicide After Forced Marriage To Rapist”
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/14/amina-filali-morocco-rape_n_1345171.html My comment: RAGE!
    — — — — —
    Environmental crunch ‘worse than thought’: OECD http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-03-environmental-crunch-worse-thought-oecd.html
    — — — — — —

    “Swedish church’s new recruitment ploy: wine” http://www.thelocal.se/39712/20120316/ “We have no special events for people in their forties and so we thought that it was a good opportunity” -Looks fairly harmless to me. Plus, it goes against the Islamic brand of fundamentalism.
    — — —
    Near-miss asteroid will return next year http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-03-near-miss-asteroid-year.html Damn! Ctulhu still hasn’t got it right!
    — — — — —
    Cancer paradigm shift: Biomarker links clinical outcome with new model of lethal tumor metabolism http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-03-cancer-paradigm-shift-biomarker-links.html
    — — — — — — —
    Taking another shot at RAGE to tame Alzheimer’s http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-03-shot-rage-alzheimer.html “…Several [compounds] show promise, with one in particular, FPS-ZM1, especially robust at blocking RAGE. Crucially, it’s a very small molecule that crosses the blood-brain barrier and gets into the brain, where it’s needed.”

  465. Louis says

    Hi Walton,

    Good to see you, good to read you are doing okay despite/because of the diagnosis. (depending on how you feel about it!). I hope that getting more appropriate treatment helps you.

    Louis

  467. A. R says

    Walton: Good to see you back. You missed a discussion about prisons earlier. I’m also very happy to have a fellow monarchist back on TET.

  468. Pteryxx says

    Heya Walton, glad to hear you’re doing well.

    I’m also very happy to have a fellow monarchist back on TET.

    …

    …NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooo……………

  469. Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferret says

    Walton! Great to see you back.

    I was reminiscing recently about how when I was a kid I memorized all of the monarchs of England and its successor kingdoms, in order, from as far back as “England” was a thing (that is, from Alfred the Great) on. I thought that was hella cool at the time (people told me I was a nerd).
    I think that some of the nicknames of monarchs from Way Back are hilarious. I mean, I know
    why Æthelred II is known as “the Unready,” but I still think its funny that that is his sobriquet. I mean, they could easily have gone with “Æthelred Who Fucked It All Up” or “Æthelred the Dumbass,” but no. Unready it is.

    Anyway! Hang in there with the diagnosis. I’m glad getting it has made you understand yourself better, and I hope your meds work out well.

  470. says

    Starstuff:

    You both are pseudo-intellectual, attention seeking assholes that no one likes. You are not right, righteous, intellectually superior, morally superior, or better, smarter, or more rational than anyone here in any way. Quite frankly, you both can fuck off now, because like I said before, no one here has any obligation to respond to you (despite why your privileged existence might have previously indicated). This group is not for you. Read our description (closely please, as it seems likely to me that your reading comprehension probably isn’t that great): it does not say that we’re here to entertain idiotic, amateur christian apologists.

    This is the correct approach. Well, actually, banning them would be even better, but I don’t know if that’s possible.

    One of my group members came into the thread and fucking tried to apologize for the group.

    Oh, joy, you have your very own Chris Stedman!

    This group that he’s done nothing for, and I’ve put pretty much all of myself into. He acts as if I’m not a good leader?

    Well, you know, you’re just a 19-year-old GUUURRRLLL.

    Sally: Cute photo!

    A.R, re the official papal stench:

    I’m surprised to hear that the tears of small children and AIDS victims aren’t in there.

    Consider my debt to you for a new keyboard cancelled out.

    Giliell: My sense is that the difference between “punishment” and “consequences” is, indeed, framing. At least when you’re talking about non-violent punishment. I would agree with John’s point about “financial punishment” unless it is reframed as restitution, to either the taxpayers or (in some cases) to the victim.

    I agree with you w/r/t shifts in morality.

    Kitty: The comments on that extremely reasonable Ars Technica article demonstrate the sheer irrationality of self-described “Rashunul D00dz.” Mansplaining, ev-psy, “women have a choice and they choose pink,” screaming about “political correctness,” an accusation of “trying to remove gender from the world,” and this gem:

    While I think women might be more exploitable by advertising (see for example how female suffrage basically created a huge welfare system)…

    When this idiot is yelled at, he whines about “PC ‘cultural’ marxism.”

    The same idiot, when told that men in East Asia often wear pink, offers up this hypothesis:

    Perhaps attraction to color is based off testosterone/estrogen ratios? East Asian men are fairly feminine/hairless, so it wouldn’t surprise me that they would wear pink.

    When rightly called “racist,” he comes back with this:

    Ok, then tell me this, why are there so many blacks and whites in the NBA but only 1 Asian-American? Again, your PC blinders pretty much prevent you from seeing it how it is under the guise of equality. All ethnic groups are uniquely gifted in their own ways, isn’t that what you people call diversity?

    As for the question of why I looked at the comments, let alone posted a few here? Because I have Trainwreck Syndrome, and, goddamnit, if I have to suffer, so do the rest of you.

    Gen Fury: You’re welcome. There are other geek feminist sites out there, too, but that was the one which came to mind specifically w/r/t gaming.

  472. chigau (√-1) says

    Waaaay back in elementary school (in Canada), we all had the same kind of straightedge ruler.
    They were made of wood with a strip of metal embedded in the edge (wtf were they thinking?).
    On the back was printed a list of all the monarchs of Britain, starting with Arthur.
    After a few years most of us could recite that list.

  473. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Walton, watch out! I think the Pullet Patrol is out for a group hug to welcome you back. Have some grog.

  474. walton says

    Walton, watch out! I think the Pullet Patrol is out for a group hug to welcome you back. Have some grog.

    *hugs* Awww, thanks, Nerd. And thanks to Esteleth, Pteryxx, A.R., Louis and Chigau.

  475. says

    Don’t worry. It certainly wasn’t because of you that I left! I’m really sorry if I gave that impression. It wasn’t your fault at all. I just needed to take some time out from controversy.

    FWIW, I’m sorry for yelling at you. I was having something of a breakdown at the time. (And have since been diagnosed with a bipolar spectrum disorder, which explains a lot about my life thus far. I’m now on a new medication which seems to be working much better. I visited DC last weekend and met with several Pharyngulites, and they can confirm that I’m doing ok at the moment.)

    Whew. I did give an apology for snapping at you so bluntly if you missed it.

    Perhaps attraction to color is based off testosterone/estrogen ratios? East Asian men are fairly feminine/hairless, so it wouldn’t surprise me that they would wear pink.

    Such an example of the hairless feminine girly asian men

    Ok, then tell me this, why are there so many blacks and whites in the NBA but only 1 Asian-American? Again, your PC blinders pretty much prevent you from seeing it how it is under the guise of equality. All ethnic groups are uniquely gifted in their own ways, isn’t that what you people call diversity?

    Yes white people get business, money and politics and black people get music and basket ball. totally uniquely “gifted”

  476. says

    @Daisy Cutter:

    At least there are a few reasonable people in the comments threads in Ars Technica. The site tends to be a little more swung towards the liberal-progressive side of the whole arrangement, or at least a bit more evidence-based-rationality side, but there are the idiots who populate the site sometimes.

    @Ing:

    Genghis Khan, so much ♥ for that guy. I’d let him conquer my land any day.

    Wat? Stop looking at me like that!

  477. janine says

    I’m also very happy to have a fellow monarchist back on TET.

    Don’t make me rip the intestine out of a deacon in order to string you up.

    (I know the imagery is rather violent but please indulge me. I am playing with an old anti-monarchical and anti-clerical trope.)

  479. says

    Esteleth, ImageJ (ImageJava) is an awesome open source program. We use it extensively, along with some very hand plugins dedicated to OCT images.
    +++++++++++++++
    Hi Walton!

  480. janine says

    The same idiot, when told that men in East Asia often wear pink, offers up this hypothesis:

    That brainstem would have been quite confused by children’s fashions in the US and western Europe in the Nineteenth Century. Perhaps he would start babbling that modern men have more testosterone.

  481. says

    I have to question what the vaguely defined “Asian” race has to do to get respect and break the “weak willed girl men” racial trope. Clearly giving us both Genghis Khan and Attila “Scourge of God” the Hun didn’t work.

    I would suggest making loud, fuel-inefficient vehicles and picking another race and questions their masculinity all the time.

  483. Richard Austin says

    A bit late to the party – I was laid up sick yesterday. However…

    Ms. Daisy Cutter:

    – Punishment. The literature seems mixed on its effectiveness, depending on method and circumstances. Do people here disdain it entirely? Those who say yes, does that mean you would never advocate for it at all, for anything, ranging from revoking certain privileges from children for various infractions (when reinforcement has failed), to life imprisonment for crimes against humanity?

    The goal, as I see it, has two aspects.

    First, we need to (if possible) provide remuneration if it’s a crime of property (assuming that’s possible). E.g., if someone destroys my car, I deserve to be supplied one of equal value somehow. Ideally, this should (again, if reasonable) be paid by the person(s) who committed the crime against property, either through direct payment or through work programs or wage garnishment (without being prohibitive to living). Now, I don’t think that someone who destroys, say, a million dollar one-of-a-kind car would be expected to pay back a million dollars if said person was working at McDonald’s. Various circumstances should come into play. The basic concept, though, is something I think that wouldn’t be unreasonable.

    The second aspect is the desire of society to prevent future crime from taking place: i.e., remove the threat the individual posed. This is the tricky part. In victimless crimes, there isn’t necessarily such a threat; consequence might be a judge saying, “Don’t do that.” For property crimes, the above remuneration would likely be sufficient in most situations.

    For other crimes, though, it gets more complex. If we can determine the root cause (or proximate causes) of the criminal behavior and can remove those causes (such as through psychotherapy or such), then that should be sufficient. If we can’t determine the cause, or we can’t provide sufficient treatment to prevent further criminal behavior (even with extensive monitoring), then we have to accept than an individual may need to be sequestered from society (from partially to totally).

    To me, the idea of “punishment” is useless, though as others have stated the perception of the difference may be limited.

    I should state that my above position is an ideal I’m not sure we can achieve. Insert quotes about how humanity’s reach should exceed its grasp if you will.

  484. janine says

    I have to question what the vaguely defined “Asian” race has to do to get respect and break the “weak willed girl men” racial trope. Clearly giving us both Genghis Khan and Attila “Scourge of God” the Hun didn’t work.

    Even without those two examples, just a basic knowledge of history would show that trope to be a lie. Chinese history is filled with wars, massive armies and powerful warlords. Japan had one of the most martial classes in existence, and that code was pushed onto all classes when the elite needed a massive military.

  485. dianne says

    Wat? Stop looking at me like that!

    That’s no way to talk about your great(^n)-grandfather. (If you’re at least partly European or Asian, anyway.)

  486. Richard Austin says

    Just read this: apparently a key vote in a committee in the EU Parliament potentially succeeded because of three votes that were illegally cast, and no one’s doing anything about it.

    There’s a problem with this. There are 24 seats in the committee, and one group (non-inscrits) was absent, lacking deputies to fill that person’s vote. So, there should have been 23 votes at the most. But we just counted 12 votes for reform and 14 against. That’s 26.

    Yes, your reactions are correct here – that means that voter turnout on this copyright reform issue was 113%. Also, if there were 12 reform-friendly people with actual voting rights, then there would necessarily have been 11 against – causing reform to prevail, and the copyright monopoly to be substantially weakened in the European Union in favor of preserving our cultural heritage.

    This rather embarrassing issue was pointed out to the committee, the fact that there were three votes too many, and that these three votes determined the outcome. When this was done, along with formally requesting a re-vote, that re-vote on the points in question was denied.[Emphasis in original]

    What’s worse is that the committee this happened in is responsible for “safeguarding the integrity and trustworthiness of the legal framework as a whole in Europe”.

  488. says

    Hi all, I’m getting ready for a road trip and won’t be near a computer until late tonight. If anyone has a moment and would not mind giving me a little feedback, would you read my blog post titled “Triggers”? I’d appreciate some visits from the horde after the blood sweat and tears (mostly tears) it took to get that out there.
    Please don’t read if talk of psychological distress PTSD, rape and misogyny are triggers. I don’t want to ask people to go read it without warning. Thanks everyone. Wishing a good day to all! I hope to check in much later tonight, if I can. Nifty.

  489. says

    Hi there

    Walton
    Good to see you
    I’m sorry that you have to deal with bipolar, but I’m glad you’re getting the help you need
    *hugs if you want them*

    Ms. Daisy Cutter

    My sense is that the difference between “punishment” and “consequences” is, indeed, framing.

    Well, not exactly.
    To give you an example with children:
    Consequences arise immediately and are directly related to the “crime”. Making a mess with your dinner all over the table means that you’re not hungry and your dinner is over (this has to be anounced before). That’s a consequence.
    When you hurt other kids playing, you have to go and play somewhere else alone because you’re not save to have around.
    That’s a consequence.
    No good-night story and no TV are punishment.

  490. David Marjanović says

    …Oh. Yeah. This is a rodent.

    ░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░

    It’s well known that cats can’t taste sweet – the gene for the receptor is broken. Such a mutation happened at least seven more times within Carnivora; even the mutations in sea lions and seals aren’t the same (the former have a broken start codon, the latter a premature stop codon). The gene in question “also is known to be pseudogenized in chicken, tongueless Western clawed frogs, and vampire bats”. Sea lions further lack the umami receptor, presumably because they swallow all their food whole. Bottlenose dolphins (who aren’t carnivorans) “may also lack functional bitter receptors” (no intact ones were detected), presumably for the same reason. Interestingly, “the giant panda lacks a functional umami taste receptor gene” despite not being purely vegan. Finally, perhaps because they can’t taste sweet, Asian small-clawed otters show avoidance of saccharin in experiments – for us, the sweet part of its taste largely masks the rest of its taste. However, spectacled bears, who taste sweet just fine, dislike aspartame and don’t seem to notice neotame or sodium cyclamate (nasty stuff in higher concentrations). – Best sentence from the paper: “Furthermore, dolphins detected only elevated levels of quinine (bitter), and a California sea lion showed no response to quinine sulfate but did respond to elevated levels of quinine monohydrochloride dihyd[r]ate (0.40 parts per trillion; from 3 to ∼4 orders [of magnitude?] above human detection threshold) (33, 34).” – German news feature.

    If we don’t diminish our greenhouse gas emissions, the ice shield of Greenland will be gone in 2,000 years, raising the sea level by 7 m, IIRC. If we contain the warming to 2 °C, it’ll take 50,000 years, which happens to be when the next ice age is scheduled to begin (but we’re probably preventing it right now). Paper, German news feature.

    Quite common and even more people do believe in god (or “a higher power” as a friend recently put it, some won’t even claim the god label anymore), abhor the catholic churches actions re gays and child abuse and still stay there because they totes want to marry in a church and omg your babies wont be baptized otherwise!!!11elebenty

    Sounds very familiar.

    The difference is that I’ve done a boatload of work on learning to be a good parent and a sane adult, and I view homeschooling as a job rather than something that just happens.

    *pounce* *hug* ^_^

    I can vouch for the educational benefits of unlimited access to books. […] There is no better educational tool than unlimited access to knowledge at an early age

    Seconded!!! We went to the library every 2 weeks for years and years.

    Gosh, it couldn’t be that certain serious actions tend to be black-and-white enough that even young children can grasp their severity, could it?

    Depends on their upbringing. If they’ve grown up with seeing things like honor as black-&-white, they’ll believe killing people is just what you have to do sometimes.

    “Cold-blooded killer” describes what McInerney did quite accurately.

    You act as if that were a symptom of legal sanity, of culpability.

    Quite the opposite. A murderer who just shoots, drops the gun and walks away, all of that in public, clearly hasn’t grasped much of the world in general.

    I had a criminal law professor who advocated that the “not guilty by reason of insanity” verdict should be replaced with “guilty but mentally ill”, so as to remove the knee-jerk reaction that we have to the phrase “not guilty”.

    How about simply “not culpable” – “not able to be guilty”?

    Austria has “institutions for mentally abnormal lawbreakers” distinct from prisons (“justice performance institutions”).

    OK, I understand community outreach, but why the fuck is the Department of Justice and the FBI sponsoring an event to discuss female modesty in various religious traditions?

    o.O

    Looks like our junior christian apologist is back on my Freethinkers group’s FB page. This is what he had to say about abortion (in response to someone else) […]:

    Junior? How junior? Pubertary or younger? Because that would explain why he can’t seem to imagine recreational sex. Otherwise, perhaps he’s asexual and hasn’t noticed almost everyone else isn’t?*

    Keep in mind what a sheltered upbringing looks like. The only evidence I have that my parents have ever had sex is my own existence, that of my 3 siblings, and the fact that my dad told me something like 2 years ago that my mom used to be on the pill. (He told me because he worried about potential effects of messing with your hormone levels over decades. I hadn’t noticed because she made no secret of occasionally using tampons – probably I had just seen that the last time around the time the baby sister was conceived…)

    * Sounds absurd, perhaps, but Alan “Crazification Factor” Keyes, Rick “Santorum” Santorum, and apparently Fred “Fred Phelps” Phelps still haven’t understood that not every man is gay.

    BTW, this guy really does not like me. I seem to make him sad and uncomfortable

    Because you destroy his theory of the world again and again and again, by doing little more than showing some presence.

    Unrelatedly, today’s dose of impeccable taste. (Read the comments; they’re short but great.)

    One click away is today’s dose of empirical-approach-to-math awesomeness. You can’t calculate the shortest network between a couple of points? Let slime mold grow on them.

    BTW, the article says slime mold is “a single-celled organism”. It’s a horde of single-celled organisms.

    Consent to sex is consent to pregnancy, since reproduction is the purpose of sex.

    I really hate this line. The lives that we now lead is so very different to what our ancestors lived, we do things with our bodies that have nothing to do with what they did in order to survive.

    And so did our ancestors, if bonobos are any guide.

    If you starve the trolls of attention, they’ll leave.

    Would surprise me. But I agree your response was at the perfect meanness level and might actually end up driving them away for good.

    Update: the goal has been met and surpassed! Woot Pharyngula Horde! I’m going to meet so many of you, THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!

    …that… …went… …fast. :-o

    SallyStrange #433
    *cute overload*
    Teach your Mom to type, already!
    (that’s you on the right, right?)

    :-D :-D :-D

    I don’t know. They both look kinda young…

    *hides under desk*

    I finished my paper and handed it in! Then I slept. A lot. Now I just woke up and it’s eleven. I don’t really know what to do with that. I have another paper due on Monday, which I haven’t started because I’ve been so wrapped up in this one. Eesh.

    :-) One thing after another. :-)

    …On the other hand… maybe I should add “the Virgin Slut” to my name tomorrow. Hmmmm.

    Sounds also like the most tasty non-alcoholic cocktail ever.

    Ooh, that fits! I don’t drink alcohol! :-) I’ll definitely put it in my name come the next thread with Morally Repugnant Assholes.

    (…Not any earlier. I’m a coward. :-) )

    One of the most interesting and never to be answered questions to me is when and how our ancestors figured out that sex leads to pregnancies.
    And I’m absolutely convinced that that was the day they started to think about contraception.

    No, later.

    There are tribes in the Amazon, for instance, who hadn’t figured it out before Western contact (from the east). I don’t quite remember if the Yanomamö (with their sex-positive and rape-heavy culture) are one of them. This does not preclude saying about a plant “if a woman eats that, she’ll never have children anymore”.

    I don’t see the distinction between penalties enforced for breaching Draconian laws and punishment other than (possibly) that the penalties for non-compliance are specified ahead of time.

    The actual deterrence are the frequent controls. The penalties just put some weight behind the controls, that’s all.

    As far as I can tell, crimes are committed by 3 types of people: those who are sure they’re planned everything carefully enough that they won’t be caught (or at least won’t be convicted because of their connections); those who don’t think about such things at all because they just see red mist; and those who believe it must be done.

  492. David Marjanović says

    I was too stupid to count the links. Next try… Part 1 of 2:

    ░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░

    …Oh. Yeah. This is a rodent.

    ░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░

    It’s well known that cats can’t taste sweet – the gene for the receptor is broken. Such a mutation happened at least seven more times within Carnivora; even the mutations in sea lions and seals aren’t the same (the former have a broken start codon, the latter a premature stop codon). The gene in question “also is known to be pseudogenized in chicken, tongueless Western clawed frogs, and vampire bats”. Sea lions further lack the umami receptor, presumably because they swallow all their food whole. Bottlenose dolphins (who aren’t carnivorans) “may also lack functional bitter receptors” (no intact ones were detected), presumably for the same reason. Interestingly, “the giant panda lacks a functional umami taste receptor gene” despite not being purely vegan. Finally, perhaps because they can’t taste sweet, Asian small-clawed otters show avoidance of saccharin in experiments – for us, the sweet part of its taste largely masks the rest of its taste. However, spectacled bears, who taste sweet just fine, dislike aspartame and don’t seem to notice neotame or sodium cyclamate (nasty stuff in higher concentrations). – Best sentence from the paper: “Furthermore, dolphins detected only elevated levels of quinine (bitter), and a California sea lion showed no response to quinine sulfate but did respond to elevated levels of quinine monohydrochloride dihyd[r]ate (0.40 parts per trillion; from 3 to ∼4 orders [of magnitude?] above human detection threshold) (33, 34).” – German news feature.

    If we don’t diminish our greenhouse gas emissions, the ice shield of Greenland will be gone in 2,000 years, raising the sea level by 7 m, IIRC. If we contain the warming to 2 °C, it’ll take 50,000 years, which happens to be when the next ice age is scheduled to begin (but we’re probably preventing it right now). Paper, German news feature.

    ░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░

    Quite common and even more people do believe in god (or “a higher power” as a friend recently put it, some won’t even claim the god label anymore), abhor the catholic churches actions re gays and child abuse and still stay there because they totes want to marry in a church and omg your babies wont be baptized otherwise!!!11elebenty

    Sounds very familiar.

    The difference is that I’ve done a boatload of work on learning to be a good parent and a sane adult, and I view homeschooling as a job rather than something that just happens.

    *pounce* *hug* ^_^

    I can vouch for the educational benefits of unlimited access to books. […] There is no better educational tool than unlimited access to knowledge at an early age

    Seconded!!! We went to the library every 2 weeks for years and years.

    Gosh, it couldn’t be that certain serious actions tend to be black-and-white enough that even young children can grasp their severity, could it?

    Depends on their upbringing. If they’ve grown up with seeing things like honor as black-&-white, they’ll believe killing people is just what you have to do sometimes.

    “Cold-blooded killer” describes what McInerney did quite accurately.

    You act as if that were a symptom of legal sanity, of culpability.

    Quite the opposite. A murderer who just shoots, drops the gun and walks away, all of that in public, clearly hasn’t grasped much of the world in general.

    I had a criminal law professor who advocated that the “not guilty by reason of insanity” verdict should be replaced with “guilty but mentally ill”, so as to remove the knee-jerk reaction that we have to the phrase “not guilty”.

    How about simply “not culpable” – “not able to be guilty”?

    Austria has “institutions for mentally abnormal lawbreakers” distinct from prisons (“justice performance institutions”).

    OK, I understand community outreach, but why the fuck is the Department of Justice and the FBI sponsoring an event to discuss female modesty in various religious traditions?

    o.O

    Looks like our junior christian apologist is back on my Freethinkers group’s FB page. This is what he had to say about abortion (in response to someone else) […]:

    Junior? How junior? Pubertary or younger? Because that would explain why he can’t seem to imagine recreational sex. Otherwise, perhaps he’s asexual and hasn’t noticed almost everyone else isn’t?*

    Keep in mind what a sheltered upbringing looks like. The only evidence I have that my parents have ever had sex is my own existence, that of my 3 siblings, and the fact that my dad told me something like 2 years ago that my mom used to be on the pill. (He told me because he worried about potential effects of messing with your hormone levels over decades. I hadn’t noticed because she made no secret of occasionally using tampons – probably I had just seen that the last time around the time the baby sister was conceived…)

    * Sounds absurd, perhaps, but Alan “Crazification Factor” Keyes, Rick “Santorum” Santorum, and apparently Fred “Fred Phelps” Phelps still haven’t understood that not every man is gay.

    BTW, this guy really does not like me. I seem to make him sad and uncomfortable

    Because you destroy his theory of the world again and again and again, by doing little more than showing some presence.

    Unrelatedly, today’s dose of impeccable taste. (Read the comments; they’re short but great.)

    One click away is today’s dose of empirical-approach-to-math awesomeness. You can’t calculate the shortest network between a couple of points? Let slime mold grow on them.

    BTW, the article says slime mold is “a single-celled organism”. It’s a horde of single-celled organisms.

  493. David Marjanović says

    I was too stupid to count the links. Next try… Part 1 of 3:

    ░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░

    …Oh. Yeah. This is a rodent.

    ░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░

    It’s well known that cats can’t taste sweet – the gene for the receptor is broken. Such a mutation happened at least seven more times within Carnivora; even the mutations in sea lions and seals aren’t the same (the former have a broken start codon, the latter a premature stop codon). The gene in question “also is known to be pseudogenized in chicken, tongueless Western clawed frogs, and vampire bats”. Sea lions further lack the umami receptor, presumably because they swallow all their food whole. Bottlenose dolphins (who aren’t carnivorans) “may also lack functional bitter receptors” (no intact ones were detected), presumably for the same reason. Interestingly, “the giant panda lacks a functional umami taste receptor gene” despite not being purely vegan. Finally, perhaps because they can’t taste sweet, Asian small-clawed otters show avoidance of saccharin in experiments – for us, the sweet part of its taste largely masks the rest of its taste. However, spectacled bears, who taste sweet just fine, dislike aspartame and don’t seem to notice neotame or sodium cyclamate (nasty stuff in higher concentrations). – Best sentence from the paper: “Furthermore, dolphins detected only elevated levels of quinine (bitter), and a California sea lion showed no response to quinine sulfate but did respond to elevated levels of quinine monohydrochloride dihyd[r]ate (0.40 parts per trillion; from 3 to ∼4 orders [of magnitude?] above human detection threshold) (33, 34).” – German news feature.

    If we don’t diminish our greenhouse gas emissions, the ice shield of Greenland will be gone in 2,000 years, raising the sea level by 7 m, IIRC. If we contain the warming to 2 °C, it’ll take 50,000 years, which happens to be when the next ice age is scheduled to begin (but we’re probably preventing it right now). Paper, German news feature.

  494. David Marjanović says

    Part 2 of 3:

    Quite common and even more people do believe in god (or “a higher power” as a friend recently put it, some won’t even claim the god label anymore), abhor the catholic churches actions re gays and child abuse and still stay there because they totes want to marry in a church and omg your babies wont be baptized otherwise!!!11elebenty

    Sounds very familiar.

    The difference is that I’ve done a boatload of work on learning to be a good parent and a sane adult, and I view homeschooling as a job rather than something that just happens.

    *pounce* *hug* ^_^

    I can vouch for the educational benefits of unlimited access to books. […] There is no better educational tool than unlimited access to knowledge at an early age

    Seconded!!! We went to the library every 2 weeks for years and years.

    Gosh, it couldn’t be that certain serious actions tend to be black-and-white enough that even young children can grasp their severity, could it?

    Depends on their upbringing. If they’ve grown up with seeing things like honor as black-&-white, they’ll believe killing people is just what you have to do sometimes.

    “Cold-blooded killer” describes what McInerney did quite accurately.

    You act as if that were a symptom of legal sanity, of culpability.

    Quite the opposite. A murderer who just shoots, drops the gun and walks away, all of that in public, clearly hasn’t grasped much of the world in general.

    I had a criminal law professor who advocated that the “not guilty by reason of insanity” verdict should be replaced with “guilty but mentally ill”, so as to remove the knee-jerk reaction that we have to the phrase “not guilty”.

    How about simply “not culpable” – “not able to be guilty”?

    Austria has “institutions for mentally abnormal lawbreakers” distinct from prisons (“justice performance institutions”).

    OK, I understand community outreach, but why the fuck is the Department of Justice and the FBI sponsoring an event to discuss female modesty in various religious traditions?

    o.O

    Looks like our junior christian apologist is back on my Freethinkers group’s FB page. This is what he had to say about abortion (in response to someone else) […]:

    Junior? How junior? Pubertary or younger? Because that would explain why he can’t seem to imagine recreational sex. Otherwise, perhaps he’s asexual and hasn’t noticed almost everyone else isn’t?*

    Keep in mind what a sheltered upbringing looks like. The only evidence I have that my parents have ever had sex is my own existence, that of my 3 siblings, and the fact that my dad told me something like 2 years ago that my mom used to be on the pill. (He told me because he worried about potential effects of messing with your hormone levels over decades. I hadn’t noticed because she made no secret of occasionally using tampons – probably I had just seen that the last time around the time the baby sister was conceived…)

    * Sounds absurd, perhaps, but Alan “Crazification Factor” Keyes, Rick “Santorum” Santorum, and apparently Fred “Fred Phelps” Phelps still haven’t understood that not every man is gay.

    BTW, this guy really does not like me. I seem to make him sad and uncomfortable

    Because you destroy his theory of the world again and again and again, by doing little more than showing some presence.

    Unrelatedly, today’s dose of impeccable taste. (Read the comments; they’re short but great.)

    One click away is today’s dose of empirical-approach-to-math awesomeness. You can’t calculate the shortest network between a couple of points? Let slime mold grow on them.

    BTW, the article says slime mold is “a single-celled organism”. It’s a horde of single-celled organisms.

  495. David Marjanović says

    Part 3 of 3:

    Consent to sex is consent to pregnancy, since reproduction is the purpose of sex.

    I really hate this line. The lives that we now lead is so very different to what our ancestors lived, we do things with our bodies that have nothing to do with what they did in order to survive.

    And so did our ancestors, if bonobos are any guide.

    If you starve the trolls of attention, they’ll leave.

    Would surprise me. But I agree your response was at the perfect meanness level and might actually end up driving them away for good.

    Update: the goal has been met and surpassed! Woot Pharyngula Horde! I’m going to meet so many of you, THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!

    …that… …went… …fast. :-o

    SallyStrange #433
    *cute overload*
    Teach your Mom to type, already!
    (that’s you on the right, right?)

    :-D :-D :-D

    I don’t know. They both look kinda young…

    *hides under desk*

    I finished my paper and handed it in! Then I slept. A lot. Now I just woke up and it’s eleven. I don’t really know what to do with that. I have another paper due on Monday, which I haven’t started because I’ve been so wrapped up in this one. Eesh.

    :-) One thing after another. :-)

    …On the other hand… maybe I should add “the Virgin Slut” to my name tomorrow. Hmmmm.

    Sounds also like the most tasty non-alcoholic cocktail ever.

    Ooh, that fits! I don’t drink alcohol! :-) I’ll definitely put it in my name come the next thread with Morally Repugnant Assholes.

    (…Not any earlier. I’m a coward. :-) )

    One of the most interesting and never to be answered questions to me is when and how our ancestors figured out that sex leads to pregnancies.
    And I’m absolutely convinced that that was the day they started to think about contraception.

    No, later.

    There are tribes in the Amazon, for instance, who hadn’t figured it out before Western contact (from the east). I don’t quite remember if the Yanomamö (with their sex-positive and rape-heavy culture) are one of them. This does not preclude saying about a plant “if a woman eats that, she’ll never have children anymore”.

    I don’t see the distinction between penalties enforced for breaching Draconian laws and punishment other than (possibly) that the penalties for non-compliance are specified ahead of time.

    The actual deterrence are the frequent controls. The penalties just put some weight behind the controls, that’s all.

    As far as I can tell, crimes are committed by 3 types of people: those who are sure they’re planned everything carefully enough that they won’t be caught (or at least won’t be convicted because of their connections); those who don’t think about such things at all because they just see red mist; and those who believe it must be done.

    Heya Walton, glad to hear you’re doing well.

    I’m also very happy to have a fellow monarchist back on TET.

    …

    …NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooo……………

    All seconded. :-)

    I mean, I know why Æthelred II is known as “the Unready,” but I still think its funny that that is his sobriquet.

    It’s simply lost in translation. “The clueless” or “the one without advice” would have been better…

  497. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    𝔊𝔯𝔢𝔞𝔰𝔢𝔪𝔬𝔫𝔨𝔢𝔶 𝔉𝔯𝔞𝔨𝔱𝔲𝔯 𝔰𝔠𝔯𝔦𝔭𝔱 𝔦𝔰 𝔯𝔢𝔞𝔡𝔶 𝔫𝔬𝔴, 𝔞𝔫𝔡 𝔞𝔳𝔞𝔦𝔩𝔞𝔟𝔩𝔢 𝔞𝔱 𝔱𝔥𝔢 𝔲𝔰𝔲𝔞𝔩 𝔭𝔩𝔞𝔠𝔢. ℑ𝔱 𝔰𝔥𝔬𝔲𝔩𝔡 𝔭𝔩𝔞𝔶 𝔫𝔦𝔠𝔢 𝔴𝔦𝔱𝔥 ℌ𝔗𝔐𝔏 𝔱𝔞𝔤𝔰.

    +++++
    *waves* to Walton

    I haven’t posted that Perry thing yet, since I haven’t checked email.

  498. AndrewD says

    janine @477,

    Don’t make me rip the intestine out of a deacon in order to string you up.

    What have I done to upset you?
    Sob,Sob…
    Andrew Deacon