Last night, Larry King Live (without Larry King, who was off getting his internal organs stuffed into canopic jars or something) was all about life after death, and guess who they brought on? Deepak Chopra, new age nutcase; Dinesh D’Souza, dithering moron; and Sanjay Gupta, their usual token MD, who was completely ineffectual and didn’t say one word to criticize the pair of loons sharing the screen with him. They did bring out Michael Shermer in the middle of the show to say a few words, but again, he was too busy being nice to actually hammer on the Chopra/D’Souza BS.
They have a poll. I’d be curious to know if your answer would change after seeing (or reading the transcript) of that ghastly show. I suspect knowing what Chopra and D’Souza had to say could only increase the frequency of “no” answers.
Do you believe in life after death?
Yes 80%
No 20%
81% yes, now, even after my vote. Time to mobilize the pharynguloid horde!
This poll needs a lot of work, it’s 81-19 now.
It’s now
81% (1,297)
19% (311)
Definitely needs pharyngulating.
The poll results are not a surprise, even non-xtians and a lot of ordinary non-religious folks believe in some sort of life after death. The “undiscovered country” seems to be the last, big fear for most people.
I tried to read the transcript, but the person shouting, “What utter nonsense and bullshit!”, distracted me. Oh, wait, that was me shouting.
Overall, I prefer life before death. I cannot say with a 100% certainty that there is nothing after death since I have not made the trip. However, I will be real surprised if there is another plane beyond this one. I think I will just enjoy my friends and family while I am alive and not expect anything later.
Ciao y’all
What’s weird is that I just voted and got the same numbers lorshipmayhem.
Of course, as they nicely tell you, “this is not a scientific poll.”
Also – the canopic jars parenthetical = one of the funniest things I’ve read in a while.
#5: if you think “canopic jars” was funny, try dangling a Tanis Leaf in front of Larry’s face.
“Life after death” is a consequence of people dreaming about dead relatives.
It’s really a natural mistaken belief that does not require a bunch of cultural baggage such as gods or theories of karma and reincarnation.
That sounds disappointing, but then I read part of the transcript.
Let the presuppositions begin!
Voted and the numbers did not change.
“This is not a scientific poll”
Wow, I wouldn’t tell…
and, I’m sorry, but I just realized that . . . a. a dude from . . . survivor . . . is a qualified fill-in for Larry King? and b. this is on CNN?
What’s great is that the exchanges in the transcript totally read like the first day of an intro to philosophy class, where you get the unadulterated fallacies and where the kids think they’ve just discovered the mind/body problem and the Heap paradoxes.
(as in, congratulations Dr. Gupta, you’ve realized that there are fuzzy distinctions between alive and not alive, HOWEVER just because you can’t say which hair on the head you lose switches you from being not-bald to bald, doesn’t mean that you’re never bald)
Hmm. I don’t see the answer I would choose. “Yes, for certain values of death.” Sometimes people really are just stunned, and good medical intervention can help.
Gah! Larry King was staring at me!
Voting didn’t appear to work for me.
No, at 32%.
There’s a big difference between the questions “Do you believe in life after death?”, and “Is there life after death?”
I think it would be more honest if the poll asked “do you want to believe in life after death?” Or, more succinctly, “are you scared of death?”
Er, let’s see how this whole canopic jar thing works out for Larry King before we commit ourselves. That may be the next Big Thing.
Do you believe in life after death?
Yes 63% 1335
No 37% 792
Total Votes: 2127
According to the transcript, Dr. Gupta says “being skeptical is bad for the heart.” CNN is the USA Today of network news; all puff, fluff, and snuff. I visit the New York Times for smarts but CNN for idiocy.
I happened upon this last night and watched as long as I could stand, which was about 3 mins.
They had a little kid on there that claimed he was the reincarnation of a WWII pilot. And his parents where supporting that as fact.
shame
I actually read through a good part of the transcript. The panelists just regurgitated as many new-age apologetics for an afterlife as they could in the time allotted them.
I’m glad I ate breakfast before reading, otherwise I’d be too nauseous for my Eggo.
“You’re a skeptic. In fact, we’re just going to refer to you as the skeptic.”
Anyone else hit the roof at this point? “The M.D.”, “The book author”, “the woo-meister” and “the token believer” all get the respect of actual names, but not the sacrificial skeptic? And the token moderator lets one side trample the other and laughs about how he’s not needed? What is this, middle school?
On my blog I discuss the nature of the problem the mainstream media has in trying to interrogate the religious.
http://airbagmoments.wordpress.com/2009/12/19/personal-miracles-my-behind/
I’d love to know what you think.
I think it was Tolstoy who said “Happy skeptics are all alike; every unhappy woo-ist is unhappy in its own way”.
Chopra, D’Souza, Gupta….all Indians!
Sometimes it really hurts to call myself one.
No is at 52% now! Keep going, we’re winning!
There IS life after death. Just not for the deceased.
The score is now 48% yes 52% no.
So far:
Do you believe in life after death?
Yes 48% 1383
No 52% 1473
Total Votes: 2856
So it looks like its being pleasantly pharyngulated.
As to the others who couldn’t take anymore then a couple of minutes, your not alone. Yet I really could care less, because anyone who can listen to those three horsemen of the idioticalypes and see anything remotely worth listening to is preparing themselves for a Darwin award. I really wish I could handle more of the tripe, but I have a limit to the amount of bullshit I can absorb in the morning.
No Gods, No Masters
Cameron
Just in time for Jesus’ special day, a discussion of life-after-death. What fun!
Yes 46%
No 54%
We will bury you!
I think it’s important to remind Christians (and their friends the Muslim terrorists) that their belief in heaven is an extremely cowardly belief. Everyone, especially young people before they are permanently brainwashed, needs to understand that only gullible brain-dead childish cowardly people, believe in a life after death, which is of course the most idiotic idea ever invented.
Yes 46% 1400
No 54% 1630
Total Votes: 3030
You’d be a coward too if the other alternative is eternal torture.
@pankajsingh
Yeah I would feel that way too, reading the truck loada nonsense from these guys. However, India has a large community of skeptics too. like the folk @ Nirmukta. We also have a bunch of atheist cabinet ministers, unthinkable in most other places.
Kooks are just everywhere irrespective of nationality. That said, I’m not proud of these 3,but I bet a lot of Indians who watched that episode of Larry King were brimming with national pride as the morons blabbered on. An Indian scientist on the other hand would get no recognition until he wins the Nobel prize.
Except they made that bit up, too.
Do people here hack these polls, or does PZ just have that many loyal readers?
WOW!!!
Deepak Chopra and Dinesh D’Souza together! That is awesome! I am suprised that spacetime didn’t rupture.
I voted No in the spirit of the poll. Eternal fluffy cloud heaven is a long way from waking up in a hospital bed wondering why someone let a herd of elephants tapdance on my ribcage, until they broke the news I’d died on the operating table and had to be repeatedly pummled/zapped/generally beaten about to bring me back.
Hell, I don’t even believe in life after WORK anymore. It’s 3.17am and I’m sitting in a nearly empty office waiting for the phone to ring with some luser whose forgotten their password acting like it’s my fault. And it’s my birthday, dammit!
I want a cake and candles, or at least a goat on fire!
#8:
Umm… no. Dead is dead. Those people who’ve “been there” and came back? They were what is technically known as “not dead yet”.
I’m puzzled why the conventionally religious take any comfort from these “near death” stories. Do they think their god is so incompetent as to let people into the afterlife before they’re properly dead?
I actually do believe in life after death. Just not my life after my death.
“Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There’s a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there’s usually only one thing you can do. Go through his clothes and look for loose change.”
Yes, there is life after death, as in flowers growing from the compost that once was you or me, or in the maggots that eat us if we’re not cremated.
For the believers though, there is not much life even before death.
Somebody made it up.
Do you believe in life after death?
Yes 38% 1475
No 62% 2374
Total Votes: 3849
This is not a scientific poll
No no hacking going on just lots of loyal readers.
Yes 38% 1475
No 62% 2374
Total Votes: 3849
This Probst guy apparently thinks “host” means “join the woo-meisters in making fun of the guy talking sense.” I threw up in my mouth a little.
yes 38%
no 64%
Ive got a youtube version of this ghastly spectacle on my site
http://sneerreview.blogspot.com/2009/12/is-there-life-after-woo.html
It occurred to me recently what an absurd word game is being played by the “life after death” concept. The religious are great at misusing language for their propaganda.
Shouldn’t it be called “life after life”? Oh wait, that’s just about as nuts as saying that when someone dies, they really don’t die, even though they’re dead, they’re alive somehow, err…yeah.
So why even bother with the words life and death? They lose their meaning altogether.
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[There are no fans of Deepak Chopra on this blog. –pzm]
*Siiiiigh*
The big one.
Let me get right to the point: if there is a such thing as an eternal Hell, then nothing, NOTHING, matters at all except keeping out of said Hell.
This goes a long way toward explaining why Christians and Muslims act the way they do, especially the ones who really believe (which I would submit is a FAR lower number than people who label themselves either).
But the flip side of this is, and Ingersoll among others have mentioned this, is that real, fully-understood, true belief in Hell can only have two effects: it can make you completely coldhearted, or it can make you insane.
As an aside, I rather think Calvinism, horrible as it is, is a *defense mechanism* when faced with the idea that Hell exists. It’s the ultimate “leave it to God.” Calvinism is actually very honest: it says “Yes, God is an arbitrary prick and we can’t change who goes to Hell, so why worry?” They’ll never admit that, but that is what it boils down to. I know.
Interestingly, Chopra and others of his ilk seem to be claiming something that much more matches Buddhist, Hindu, and various “new-age” ideas of the soul and afterlife. This is…bizarre, frankly. It makes me wonder why Christians support them, since it’s so counter to their own dogma. Maybe it’s an enemy-of-my-enemy thing?
@49:
What’s with the dropped vowels…?
It’s a disemvowelling
neon-elf.myopenid.com @ 38,
Not to be a party pooper or nuthin but right now I happen to know quite a few people who would be happy to have any job at all. Including yours!
So Happy birthday and when you get off work go volunteer at a homeless shelter or the emergency room of your local hospital…
Wow, poor Michael didn’t get a chance. Everything he said was more or less ridiculed by host and guest alike.
The thing that bothers me is the whole ‘I saw a tunnel, and light, and talked to my dead relatives’ thing. If everyone who’s ‘died’ sees this same thing, then the explanation is… religion is right?
Er, well, step back a moment. Religion could be right, or science could be right. It could be a chemical process, or it could be your spirit physically ascending to an eternal rest.
Also – with reincarnation, why is everyone who claims reincarnation the returned spirit of something noble and magnanamous – like a prince or general or something like that – if reincarnation was real, then the numbers should fit.
There are only so many people who’ve ever been the ruler of a country or the leader of an army, the majority of reincarnated persons should have memories of being impoverished, dying young, and being downtrodden. You wouldn’t want to be reincarnated because chances are you’re going to be cleaning up someone’s poo in your next life.
I watched a show on the Science channel last night that I taped earlier this week called “Science of Cold”. It was mainly about the study of hypothermia. However, it told the interesting story of a Swedish woman who fell while skiing. She slid into icy cold water head first. She died. She was dead for 3 hours. No heartbeat, no breathing, no brainwaves. Her core temp was 15 degrees Celsius. It took the rescuers an hour to free her from the ice and another 2 hours at the hospital to reheat her body and her blood. Her heart eventually started to beat on it’s own. She doesn’t remember anything about her death or what happened afterwards. She only has a vague memory of what she did at work earlier in the day. My point is her consciousness died with her body. It did not live on after her body died. She has no recollections of angels, god, white light, etc. Dying will be the same as being put under for surgery except you don’t wake up (even though she did). I am now even MORE convinced there is no afterlife.
I feel a little foolish for admitting this but honestly thought that Deepak Chopra and Dinesh D’Souza were the same guy
Most people are already fearful of dying. They can’t and/or won’t accept that this is the only life they get. So religion takes advantage of this fear by exaggerating what happens to them after they die (threats of hell, eternal torture by demons, etc.) Then religion gives them a way out by proving a plan of salvation that will “save” them from going to hell and from death itself. And if they follow this plan (set of beliefs and laws) they will get eternal life in heaven. So the initial fear of death is relieved. It’s the perfect con. The whole point of religion is to control people, to get them to do what the religion wants them to do while here on earth. And since there is no way of proving that there is no heaven or hell because people don’t come back after being dead (accept for the case of the Swedish lady I posted about), religion continually thrives generation after generation.
Of course, biased Christians who may have seen that show would have said that God brought the Swedish lady back to life and it was not in his plan for her to die. So we can’t win.
I couldn’t get through the whole transcript, just to ridiculous. Shermer was being way too nice.
The thing is, I am afraid of death. Not always, but sometimes. Many of the ways people die are unpleasant, and I like being alive.
That doesn’t mean I think it’s not going to happen, or that there’s life after death.
Where’s the poll, and where is Shermer??
Happy Birthday, neon-elf!
One is a New Age liberal bullshit-artist; the other is a conservative Christian bullshit-artist. There isn’t all that much difference in reality, of course.
@pankajsingh:
I hear ye, brother! But what MadBull said is true. Kooks and crazies abound in all nationalities. The fact that the spotlight is currently on a few of them from India points to the Religious, Woo-ly American obsession with Eastern mysticism. There was a nice NY Times article on that recently.
@MadBull:
Sadly, yes. But then, if you line up twenty Indian scientists (including one working in the Biological Sciences), you’d find at least sixteen of them wearing rings with various precious and semi-precious stones, prescribed by various astrologers for warding off ‘evil influences’ of various planetary bodies and stars, and at least nineteen of them would have the images of various deities and/or godmen in their office and residences. Woo is strong in the Indian psyche.
The usual tripe from the woo crew, and Shermer getting lost in the noise. I was hoping to hear more about the Tucker character from UVA- he was the only person on the program with a scintilla on intrigue.
of intrigue. Damn insubordinate fingers.
My cousin Walter had a near death experience once. True story. He was in a tunnel and saw a light at the end. It was coming closer to him. And then he heard this sound: “choo-choo-choo”.
As stated above near death experiences would indicate that god is not very good at monitoring who is to die – if people are allowed to briefly sneak into the afterlife. If this is a deliberate action by god then like miracles it runs contrary to the whole claim that regarding the importance of faith and free will.
So called Near death experiences, NDEs, have good scientific explanations – do a google search for NDE and neuroscience etc….
In fact NDE got me started on the road to skepticism in the 6th grade. I went to a Catholic school and a priest fascinated our class with his claim of a NDE. This was his answer to us as to why he is certain there is an afterlife and god. This was around 1976 and I remember finding and reading a book by a Dr. Moody regarding NDE. If nothing else this spurred my interest in neuroscience and psychology so I am gratefull to Father Constantine.
On one episode of Penn & Teller’s Bullshit they demonstrated how approximtely 20% of pilots subjected to high G force training and who pass out experience many of the elements of NDEs.
Posted by: tsg @ 41 ” … “Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead…”
:) First thing I thought of too. Love that movie!
I got there too late to vote.
Anyhow, I used to believe reincarnation might be possible. I had a very vivid dream of being a man somewhere in Europe in the middle ages. I was infiltrating a fort to murder/assassinate someone. I felt supremely confident of success because I was in the right, so my cause could not fail. I was carrying a very big sword that didn’t feel heavy at all and wearing mail and a surcoat/tabard thingy with a coat of arms on it that I couldn’t see clearly and I had black hair. I found him and I saw his face go white with shock and horror as he watched his death walk toward him … and it felt terrific! I was exultant … then I woke up. Which I’m pleased about actually, ’cause I don’t think I’d have been so pleased with the experience at the time if it included the murder with those feelings attached.
These days I think I may have just read a few too many fantasy novels.
Regards,
Katkinkate
azumahazuki:”It makes me wonder why Christians support them, since it’s so counter to their own dogma.”
It’s the faitheist thing — belief in belief.
Most believers don’t actually care about their religion’s dogma, or even know what it is. It’s the same with most denialists — whether they’re denying evolution or AGW or the Holocaust or modern medicine or a plane flying into the pentagon or, in this case, their own death, they don’t care about the details of what they are asserting, only what they are denying.
So Sir Chandrasekhara Venkata Raman, Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar (uncle and nephew) and Hargobind Khorana are the only Indian scientists of note.
@Rev. #21
We have a station over here in Ireland called ‘Zone Reality’ (John Edward features on it regularly. Big irony there). About 2 months ago on a Saturday, IIRC, I was waiting for my coffee to brew and I watched about 15 mins (I have a *really old* coffee brewer) of that programme about the kid who thought he was a reincarnated German WWII pilot.
Of course, the anecdotal evidence was mightily well-presented, and I was nearly convinced… but then my coffee was finished brewing, and I retired upstairs to read a bit of the BA or PZ. Methinks the kid has been clandestinely watching too much TV (of course, the parents swore up and down that he never watched any TV), or they conveniently forgot about that set of Encyclopedia Britannica they bought him a while ago to slake his inquisitive little mind.
Now this is getting way too weird. The programme I saw was *definitely* referring to a kid who thought he was a reincarnated *German* pilot. Definitely. All the talk was about him flying Messerschmitts of some description and crashing in a battle over Germany.
But now I just headed over to the JREF, and the story there seems to be about an *American* pilot who was shot down by the *Japenese* (here’s the related article on Skeptico):
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2005/07/reincarnation_a.html
And that’s probably the one the Rev. was referring to. Oh, come on. So now the woo merchants are ripping each other off with their bullshit anecdotal stories?!
The Stupid, It Burns :-
Aha. Tracked it down. This is the one I saw the ‘documentary’ about:
http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=51018&sid=37c208a8eab6aa7a4fe2c58b72501dc5
Scroll down a few posts there, and read the entry about ‘Carl Edon’. Fascinating stuff, but just youth with fertile imaginations to be sure…
#41:
“You rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles.” Hey, maybe God is rushed? After all, he never counted on coping with 6 billion.
#42:
I got a new perspective on death from reading Mary Roach’s Stiff: The Curious Lives of Human Cadavers. She writes rather touchingly of the excellent work done by many of the post-alive community, some of whom have contributed to our knowledge in various important ways, while others have saved lives in a very direct manner. I was already a registered organ donor before I read it, but it was a stirring reminder that there are more productive and less selfish ways of spending your post-mortem years than strumming a harp on a cloud.
#60:
Dying, or being dead? Having watched both my parents die, I’m really not keen on the process, which can be horrible. I’m comforted by the thought that there are painless methods of suicide. But afterwards? Non-existence really doesn’t bother me. I don’t agonise about not existing in 1900 – why should I get upset about not existing in 2100?
PZ: ~ “They did bring out Michael Shermer in the middle of the show to say a few words, but again, he was too busy being nice to actually hammer on the Chopra/D’Souza BS.”
I’m not to sure of that one. In fact it appears simply wrong.
A read of the transcripts may help, at least to where they finally bring on Michael.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0912/22/lkl.01.html
NeonElf, happy birthday! (while it’s still the 23rd here)
At least you can read (and Pharyngulate) on the job. And you’re not getting rained on. (oh-oh. I’m At-leasting. Better get to bed.) G’night!
Actually, it was a dead animal, and the hordes of flies that emerged from its carcase, that made me realize how precious organic carbon is. The flies had to wait until something died before they could recycle its carbon into fly bodies.
Did you ever hear about The Quest for Bridey Murphy? http://www.skepdic.com/bridey.html This was an abso-bleedin-lutely huge WooFest back about 50 years or so ago about a woman called Virginia Tighe who was Hypnotically Regressed and started telling stories about an earlier incarnation as an Irish woman from the 19th C. When speaking as Bridey, she had an Irish accent and told stories about life in Ireland which sounded authentic. She really had everyone going until a reporter for the Chicago Tribune tracked down an Irishwoman called Bridie Murphey Corkell who had lived across the street from Tighe when she was little. She was the source of the stories.
#79 chicagomolly.wordpress.com
The frightening aspect is that Virginia Tighe probably had NO idea she was confabulating a real life experience (of meeting Bridey as a child) and the persona she created under hypnotism.
Our minds capacity to deceive us is scary. Dreams that seem real; poor memories of past events (that make eyewitness accounts so tenuous); delusions brought on by drugs, alcohol, fatigue or wishful thinking……
Many years ago, I suffered postpartum depression and went on anti-depressants for several months. I was hearing a voice in my head – a staccato of whisperings telling me that I had to do this & that (like clean the dishes, do the laundry… nothing exciting). A day after I went on the anti-depressants, the voice stopped, never to be heard again. Because I wasn’t crazy, I KNEW the voice was me. (If I had been crazy, I would have believed that it was God or a dog named Sam.)
CHOPRA: Well, I have to say of Michael that he is very superstitious. He’s addicted to the superstition of materialism.
Boy, there’s just nothing like the cool, clear arguments of a highly-evolved-spiritual-type person with an Expanded Consciousness.
I can feel the love!
“The secret of attraction is to love yourself. Attractive people judge neither themselves nor others. They are open to gestures of love. They think about love, and express their love in every action. They know that love is not a mere sentiment, but the ultimate truth at the heart of the universe.” — Deepak Chopra
[There are no fans of Deepak Chopra on this blog. –pzm]
Amen, brother! Tell it! :->
(Andreas Johansson here, TypePad is acting up again.)
Moggie wrote:
Those questions are not equivalent. I’m afraid of dying alright, but what I would want to believe is that I won’t die.
prostock69 wrote:
Cite? Between “dead for 3 hours” and it being on the Science Channel, it’s hard to believe it’s true.