They’re dangerous and destructive, and erode the mission of our soldiers — and they also seem to be remarkably stupid. In the latest incident, people in Afghanistan are unhappy with the Christian evangelism that accompanies the US military. I can’t blame them.
In one recorded sermon, Lieutenant-Colonel Gary Hensley, the chief of the US military chaplains in Afghanistan, tells soldiers that, as followers of Jesus Christ, they all have a responsibility “to be witnesses for him”.
“The special forces guys – they hunt men basically. We do the same things as Christians, we hunt people for Jesus. We do, we hunt them down,” he says.
“Get the hound of heaven after them, so we get them into the kingdom. That’s what we do, that’s our business.”
I think it’s the business of the secular officer corps to hound these vermin with courts-martial.
The military and fundamentalism require a similar level of blind obedience so it is no surprise that fundies would find ripe pickings in the military.
Cue someone freaking out about the source of PZ’s link in 3…2…
Dream on, the officer corps is 100% behind this kind of behaviour. The Bushites turned the armed forces into their fifth column before they got booted out. If Texas actually were to secede, expect the Texas National Guard to fight against the evil atheist-liberal-fascist-communist guv’mint in DC.
Egads! While we’ve seen this kind of thing before, it scares me to see such a misuse of the human brain – the blind obedience to fairy tales in someone over the age of 7…
The hound of heaven? Wow.
BTW,
http://www.secular.org/issues/chaplains/?view=summary
It must be awkward to mix 2 religions that are bound by their tenets to convert non-believers.
“Why do we even have chaplains in the military?”
So that people who are shooting others and being shot can feel that what they are doing isn’t incredibly stupid?
So that people who are shooting others and being shot can feel more special?
So that people who are shooting others and being shot can take solace in an imaginary afterlife in which guns go bye-bye?
These types make Lt. Gordon Klingenschmitt happy.
What caliber bullets would Jesus use?
I’m confused. Don’t the Afghans go to heaven and get a buttload of virgins for killing US soldiers? I don’t think Xians get virgins for converting anyone.
Absolutely ridiculous. They have also caused suicides with their behavior. I can’t stand the military mindset anyways, but add jebus into the mix… Horrible.
At first i said ‘holy crap’ ! But, after I read what the afgan fundamentalist said
I came to conclusion that a little of religious diversity ( even when introduced by illegal means and by equally evil fundamentalists ) would serve them well.
Proselytizers are such a pain in the ass. They have no sense of decency or propriety. I guess that’s the way it is with people who know the “truth” and the “truth” has set them free to be a nuisance to others.
I recently sat through a memorial service for a colleague. My late colleague was a man of faith and his service was at his church. Fine. I understand that. His pastor, however, could not resist the impulse to turn his late congregant’s memorial service into a save-the-unsaved opportunity, no doubt relishing the bumper crop of academic unbelievers sitting in his pews. But exactly why did the preacher think it was persuasive to declare that “No thinking person can deny deep inside himself the reality of a transcendent God!” The atheist caucus met afterward in the church lobby for a good laugh. We agreed that the preacher was just trying to do his job — at the expense of the deceased man whom we had gathered to honor.
I am down on hospital chaplains as well. I had to travel to Houston to have surgery for a rare problem I couldn’t find treatment for in my own state. The forms included sections about my religion (none) and my desire for a hospital chaplain during my stay (also none). On the jittery day of surgery, I was visited by a chaplain who wanted to pray with me. I was livid. I specifically told her that I was an atheist and that I had requested no chaplain and I meant it. She just smiled in a Stepford Wife manner and said that was all right, she would just wish blessings upon me. I wasn’t really dressed to get up and take her on so I just gave her my best disgusted look and shut up so as to get her to go away faster. I wrote an angry note to the hospital when they solicited comments on my hospital stay. No one apologized, and everyone I’ve told about it says, “Well, that’s Texas.”, like it’s a good reason. It’s not.
Why do we even have chaplains in the military?
To waste taxpayers money.
If a soldier is so childish he needs a liar-for-jeebus to get thru the day, he should change careers.
@bobxxxx
That’s not necessarily true — a strong constituency of mental health specialists and counselors would be a boon to any active-combat military.
Of course, that’s not what we have, so you’re generally right anyway.
Celeste, Christians aren’t too good at taking hints, so perhaps next time you could say to the worthless hospital chaplain “go fuck yourself god-soaked asshole.”
@#3
Agreed, this type of behavior definitely comes from the top. As this is the military, the people in the bottom have no say.
GI Jebus.
Hey, let’s stop talking about the Crusades, that was a long time ago, not in accordance with Christianity, and Christians will never commit something like that today.
oh wait…
Ok, so none of these people are Christians. Is that right? Apparently Christians are always the people behind your back when you look at atrocities, abuse and greed. When you turn really quickly, they will still be the people you’re not looking at, and you’re lucky if you ever hear them make a sound.
Somehow that does not comfort me.
Our evil public health care hospitals don’t have chaplains. I had never heard of those things existing. Apart from a census form, I’ve never filled a form which asked for my religion. If you want religious services in a hospital here, your priest has to move his butt over to your room.
We do have volunteers serving water, juice and cookies though.
Did this guy actually compare proselytising with predatory behavior, with stalking and murdering ?
How revealing. How accurate.
Wait…I’m sorry…did you say murdering?
Well if I was stuck in Afghanistan I’d go right up to that chaplain and tell him I needed to be reassigned to California so I could go to Calexico and see the Virgin Mary in-the-griddle for myself so I could be converted too!
The hound of heaven? Wow.
The “hound of heaven” thing gets passed around Christian circles. It’s based on a terrible poem.
I remember the first time I was exposed to it was at a church retreat when I was in junior high. I thought the poem was utter garbage then. Sadly, I still agreed with the sentiment.
What is being done to protect any of the locals they convert? Funny they didn’t mention the harsh penalty for dissing Allah & Muhammed by converting.
Religion, all religion, rots the brain. From the article:
“Ahmed Shah Ahmedzai told Al Jazeera from Kabul on Monday: “This is a complete deviation from what they [the US military] are supposed to be doing.
“I don’t think even the US constitution would allow what they are doing … it is completely against all regulations.”
You’re doing good, Ahmed. Now, make us care…
“This is very damaging for diplomatic relations between the two counties … “
Yes, talk about our interests, good. Good.
“…everyone knows people are very conservative here, very faithful to Islam. They will never accept any other religion.”
Careful, Ahmed, remember your audience. Careful….
“Someone who leaves Islam is sentenced very severely – the death penalty [is imposed].
Abort! Abort! Abort!
Aw, you totally fucked it all to hell, Ahmed. Let’s see, who will the American people root for? The Red-blooded Americans only trying to spread the Word of Jeeeeesus, the Loving God (TM)? Or the madmen who think there is no correlation between the fact(?) that everyone is “very faithful to Islam” and that to become an Apostate is deserving of the death penalty?
Screw them both.
You seem to have a bit of a perspective problem here. We can fight the chaplains in the military once we’ve cut the military to about a tenth of it’s size.
As long as the US military is an oversized behemoth, far beyond any rational defensive need, it’s going to continue driving an imperialist policy (which is why anything beyond a tiny standing army is actually unconstitutional under the original understanding). And of course an imperialist policy requires a messianic evangelism as part of its propaganda mechanism.
The chaplains are the least of our problems.
If you do, you will have completely different problems than military chaplains. Like cina invading thaiwan, north korea south korea, russia ukraine and EU, somalia iraq and afganistan turning into totalitarian nightmares, pakistan under taliban controll nuking your ass off, etc…
Ah finally a topic that’s remotely connected to the following article i found few days ago on the AiG Worldwide blog:
http://tinyurl.com/dehbxo
I wonder if the UN is happy to have its infrastructure misused as a tool for witnessing…
When I applied for my conscientious objector status (Viet Nam war, not the current ones), I had to have the chaplain sign off on my request. Not a very fruitful meeting…
I personally have no problems with chaplains in the military – as long as they stick to what they are there for: spiritual counselling and guidance.
As soon as they expand on that to start evangelising and seeking converts, they’ve crossed the First Amendment line (in the US, at least – us Aussies have our own rules on this)
yep. To kill another human in cold blood – murdering.
I don’t subscribe to the euphemisms of war. However necessary those acts may be, however justified, we should not change the name or meaning of the act. It’s part of the very high price that soldiers pay for their country, and we shouldn’t forget or lessen it.
There should be no problem with a chaplain as a concept: Soldiers have a frightening, mentally hard and morally ambiguous job to perform, and they deserve whatever sort of spiritual guru they want. There should be no evangelism by the government time. Not any. Not some. None. I am bothered by the stories of Jesus huggers proselytizing at point of bayonet, either the conquered or their mates.
I also fear for any U.S. solder who thinks he does his lord’s work. His lord should be the Constitution in his service, as he swore before–maybe even before his god.
Post #34 is mine. I got ahead of myself.
Okay. I was predicting you’d take it in a different direction, which is why my question had the flavor of challenge written into it. But actually, we’re on pretty much the same sheet of music. In fact, I would have written that last sentence of yours almost exactly the same way that you did. Ultimately, I was hoping that you’d explain the comment in a little more detail, which you did. Thanks.
Really good (and terribly disturbing) related article in the May issue of Harpers called, “Jesus killed Mohammed:
The crusade for a Christian military.”
Tweak Hensley’s comments just a hair and you’re talking the crusades all over again. As far as we know, his conversion techniques don’t include the rack or the stake.
Yet.
Do you really want an answer?
Well, originally, we didn’t. The Chaplains’ Corps wasn’t added until the Civil War. Before that, if troops wanted to pray they had to get down on their knees and do it themselves.
The real question is: May we have military chaplains, constitutionally speaking? It is certainly unconstitutional for the government to pay a priest (whether his official title is Priest, Minister, Reverend, Rabbi, Imam or any other) to minister to anyone; that violates the separation of church and state mandated by the First Amendment.
However, it has been determined to be equally unconstitutional to deploy troops away from home without “religious guidance.” You just can’t say to soldiers: “You’re going to be deployed for a long, long time, and you won’t be able to attend services at all”; that violates the soldiers’ rights under the First Amendment. And that’s the real answer to your question: we have military chaplains so we can deploy troops for long periods of time.
Of course, there are constitutionally mandated limits; no member of the military, chaplain or otherwise, is allowed to prosteletize anyone while on duty or in any variety of uniform; when you’re deployed, you’re considered always to be on duty (or so they kept telling us). Thus, I conclude that what we really need here is enforcement, and maybe a restructuring of the Chaplain’s Corps.
Personally, while in the military, I always appreciated having the chaplains around, even though I only ever met the Christian ones (I kept hearing rumors of nonChristian chaplains, though). If you really need to talk to someone and you don’t want it getting back to your chain of command, the chaplains are the way to go. Theoretically, even a congressional order signed by the President is insufficent to get a chaplain to reveal what he was told in confidence. And that is the official answer to your question: we have military chaplains for the morale boost.
I don’t know if this has been discussed, an Atheist Chaplain (link).
This seems to me to be a step in the wrong direction, compounding the problem, in a strangely satisfying way, without solving it.
Granting that the proselytization is annoying, the very people complaining about makes it look positively wonderful by comparison to the vileness of Islamic government:
Gee, they’ll never leave Islam. So faithful. And they’d only be killed for it if they did.
Islam remains one of the nastiest blights on humanity in existence today.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
Egads, some of you people scare the crap out of me. It’s not a vast right-wing conspiracy, it’s not about spreading Christianity to heathens or any of that crap. The reason the military has chaplains is very simple, really: to bring comfort to the soldiers. Being in the military can be a very stressful time in someone’s life, especially when stationed overseas and/or in a combat zone.
You can tell a chaplain ANYTHING, and you can be sure he won’t go telling your chain of command unless it’s life-threatening. There’s a serious morale boost in being able to just talk to someone without feeling like just another faceless Private.
And for those who are religiously inclinded, the chaplains are always there to offer a prayer for you and your family. It’s really not something anyone should be freaking out about.
If some chaplains are trying to bring their version of God to someone who doesn’t want to be preached to, then yes, that should stop. But stop blowing this out of proportion as some ridiculous conspiracy for “brain-washed baby killers” and all that stupid bullshit that seems to pop up when something like this comes to light.
The 1st Amendment can be read to require religious accomodation for our soldiers: If our government sends soldiers to war, then it should provide worship opportunities for those who want them. So I have no real issue with providing chaplains or rabbis or warlocks or what-have-you.
But this fellow really crossed a line when he more-or-less imposed the additional mission objective of converting the Afgans to jeebus. The soldiers have more than enough to worry about with this kook trying to get the warriors to “save souls.” Sheesh!
He needs to be reassigned and reminded of exactly why he is stationed in a war zone.
So you finally got around to Jeff Sharlet’s Harper’s piece?
Wow. For a blog dedicated to rational thought, some of the comments have a pretty fanciful idea of foreign policy. Warfare is inherently stupid (@6)? Stalking and murdering (@22)? No standing armies (@28)? Damn.
The good news is that there are lots of atheists in foxholes. In the Special Operations unit I was in from ’00 to ’04, maybe one in fifty went to church. Probably one or two more believed in God in some disorganized way. The rest of us took a decidedly practical approach to the problems we faced.
We had a battalion chaplain, it’s true, but he was very ecumenical, and functioned basically as a social worker for those men who had families. Of course his salary would have been better spent on a mental health/counseling professional.
I think the best possible thing to do here would be to get rid is the useless god-botherers and send in a lot of trained mental-health professionals.
Kemist, I agree with your assessment.
I was horrified the other day at the hospital when I was updating my information, and they seemed very insistent that I have to have my religion in their files. Apparently the chaplains keep their own database? I was just too startled and blurted out something to the effect of “none, thankfully!”. It was just so bizarre.
@Kemist:
To call killing in war “murder” is in fact to change the word’s meaning. There are lots of ways of killing people – euthanasia, manslaughter, murder, in combat, collaterally, etc. Only one is done “unlawfully with malice aforethought”.
Killing in war takes a psychological toll on soldiers, and I respect your intentions in trying to call attention to that. The psychological toll is much higher, however, if people try to call what we do “murder” or (in the extreme) “baby-killing”.
As long as we have people who are religious, and are in circumstances that prevent them from seeking out religious worship or pastoral care on their own (e.g., military postings or confinement in hospitals), I think providing chaplains is a reasonable accommodation.
However, chaplains’s services should be provided on a strict opt-in basis: Nobody should be prayed over unless they’ve specfically requested it; nobody should be encouraged or pushed to attend worship services (not even in the polite, self-effacing manner of the sainted Father Mulcahy), much less proselytized. Aside from simple, strictly informational notices that religious services are available, no “marketing” of chaplains’ services should be countenanced.
If I were Galactic Emperor, proselytizing by military chaplains within the military would be grounds for dishonorable discharge; proselytizing of foreign nationals outside the military would be a serious offense against national security, punishable by court martial and prison time. In nonmilitary institutions such as hospitals and prisons, proselytizing (or any pushing of religious services on anyone who hadn’t specifically requested them) would be grounds for summary dismissal.
Stories like Zeno’s (@13) and Celeste’s (@14) are horrific. I think many people who are casually secular (by which I mean nonreligious, but not actively antitheist) think pushy ministers are “trying to do the right thing” even though we don’t agree with them. On the contrary, though, I think it’s high time we (as a society, I mean, not just Pharyngulistas) recognize that shoving religion at people is not benevolent, even if the people doing the shoving think of it as well-meaning.
?Posted by: Dave | May 4, 2009 10:17 AM
What is being done to protect any of the locals they convert? Funny they didn’t mention the harsh penalty for dissing Allah & Muhammed by converting.
doesn’t matter.
they become martyr-fodder.
Every fundie/fucktard wants to bve a martyr, innit? Instantly in the lap of the lord, and shit like that?
They got no complaint comin’…
James Madison addresses the issue of chaplains (and other government and religion entanglements) in his Detached Memoranda.
Take a guess how he felt
It’s not only abusive and annoying to the locals where the military is placed – there are a lot of accounts of atheist or “other”-religioned soldiers getting pretty shitty treatment from chaplains when they don’t toe the line. (Don’t want to come to chapel service Sunday morning? Great, you’re on latrine duty! Need that recommendation for promotion? Sorry, you don’t have the “correct moral standing” for the job.)
Correction – I shouldn’t have said the bad treatment comes from chaplains, it comes from commanding officers who are just as zealous.
Hmmm.
Why didn’t this come up in WWII? Were the other side already Christians?
I took up this argument with a friend of mine, captain of a vessel in the US Navy. He politely told me, that the Military has problems with this issue. The Navy however, requires that all chaplains go through a thorough training course where they learn (a) basic tenets of all faiths, so that they can assist everyone on board ship (b) psychology, so that they can really assist everyone on ship, not just spout nonsense from ancient texts. The chaplain on my friend’s ship had degrees in both theology and psychology.
I still think they could be more secular, but at least they require the psychology training. Within the school though, their biggest fear is probably promoting one version of Christ-inanity above the others. Still, religion is a nice tool for controlling the minds of your soldiers; As hard-line atheist as I am, I don’t think I would ignore that utility.
Josh (@36):
Having not served in combat (nor in the military at all), I defer to your feelings on this, and I salute your willingness (all too rare on teh intertoobz) to back down from a challenge once your correspondent has explained further… but I stand with Anonymous (@47) in defense of clear language: We can talk about whether war is moral, or whether a particular war is moral, and of course murder can take place in a military context, just as in any other, but I think it’s confusing, inflammatory, and incorrect to refer to the killing of one combatant by another in the context of (and in accordance with the recognized norms of) an acknowledged military conflict as murder.
You’re quite correct (if I’m interpreting your comments correctly) that we should never minimize or sugarcoat the act of killing another person… but whether you think it’s a moral act or not, killing in combat is a substantively different act than what law and common usage call murder. As Anonymous hints, calling soldiers “murderers” is an inherently political act, and one whose (to borrow a phrase from all those TV courtroom shows I watch) “probitive value is outweighed by its inflammatory and prejudicial nature.”
Or so it seems to this civilian liberal.
I don’t have a problem with the idea of military chaplains. I was going to explain (my viewpoint about) the reasons they’re appropriate, perhaps even necessary, but several other commenters beat me to it, and probably said it better than I would have. The fact that one particular chaplain said something wrong and stupid doesn’t change the rationale.
But why the frak does *Congress* need chaplains? Surely there’s no shortage of churches in DC; are Senators and Representatives really so isolated that they need to have preachers shipped in? Why should what should be one of the most secular jobs in the world need to be opened with a prayer?
I’m sure the real reason is that any Senator or Representative who voted to fire the chaplains would be committing political suicide — and that’s the real problem.
You should enjoy this article that ran in the Ottawa Citizen recently:
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Padre+doesn+need+religion/1556053/story.html
Wowbagger, OM asks:
What caliber bullets would Jesus use?
Since god is known for his collateral damage, I’m guessing he uses fuel/air explosives.
No, fundamentalism is. The fundies here would be just as happy to use the same means to enforce their view of the world, if they could get away with it.
I believe it is the same in Canada. Certainly to get out of paying union dues in a union shop, one must produce a document signed by an official of a religion that does not permit the paying of union dues. And even then, you have to pay the dues to a charity instead of the union.
Objecting to unions on moral and ethical ground is insufficient.
When I was in the Canadian Forces (ending 17 yrs ago) I was told point-blank that being an atheist was an impediment to my career as an officer. I can only imagine that in the USA it is much, much worse.
Indeed. In my early years of service, when we could be COMPELLED to attend religious services under pain of punishment, I visited the Protestant chaplain regularly. I explained my atheism, and he was helpful in getting the religious references removed from my documents.
(When I was recruited, I was not permitted to put “no religion” or “atheist” so I put “anglican”, which I had been years before).
Since church parade was still obligatory (atheists had to choose which church to go to… a bizarre concept), I tended to work as a server in the Protestant service since I had experience with that in the past.
In effect, for 4 years, Protestant attendees were served their Sunday jiggery-pokery by a flaming atheist – a fact that still makes me giggle after 20 years.
Once in a while I’d pop in to see the Catholics when the Protestant padre would warn me that his sermon was going to be particularly long. I always thought that was nice of him.
Evolving Squid links to the “padre does not need religion” article which contains this gem:
Eline studied “God science” for four years at university.
There’s a 4 year university program on “god science”?? Holy crap!!! (so to speak) What’s the textbook? Written on the back of a postage stamp? Do they teach complex god physics like:
Q: If I have one triune god and you subtract the holy ghost, what do I have left?
A: god!
Q: Assume a dual god loses an electron, what do I have left?
A: god!
All that scientific study-time wasted; she could have gotten a degree in homeopathy or animal communication, instead. You know, a real science.
I want to see this project continue. I think it’s great that Christians in Afghanistan are pushing their faith shamelessly. I want to see Christianity present its self as a mob of arrogant bastards who overstep their bounds. I want to see the media admonish them for it, but for the military to do nothing about the problem. Letting protestant hicks behave as is their way, is the best way of exposing their nature. I believe in reverse rolls, muslims would be doing the same thing. Let the religious mistreat each other, and leave atheists on the side lines. Let atheists set up NGO’s as relief organizations without preaching a word. This sort of thing will help atheists become recognized as ridiculously peaceful for being, “militant”
-Philosophos
When I was in the army (1983) we had the choice of either going to sunday prayers or staying back at the barracks and cleaning. Nice, huh? Once again, religion becomes an IQ test: are there atheists on latrine duty? They had no option for “atheist” as a ‘religion’ so my dog tag reads “no preference.” When I asked the Sgt about that, he said “we’re not gonna bury you under a white stone zero.” The military cemetaries do look awful fine, don’t they? Shame to ruin them.
Unfortunately that translates as The United States presenting itself as a mob of arrogant bastards who overstep their bounds to many outside of the US.
A charge not always in the wrong. I’d rather us diminish that view of the US in those people’s minds. This would be a good place to try.
Having chaplains in the military only enforces the abject absurdity of religion. When an indiscriminate bullet rips into a soldier and he is lying there slowly dying, how poignant it is to have a moron of the sackcloth tell the soldier that it is his god’s doing for an early call to paradise and that he is indeed fortunate to forsake this vale of tears and woe. If ever there was an instance when religion should be sloughed off with the refuse of life, it is in time of war, when the faithful along with the rational are felled by a human made object of death. And yet this is not the case. Blind faith rules over the abject wastefulness and reality of war. Incredible.
I agree; let the view of the US diminish. The US can’t have an atheist leader by way of the public refusing to vote for one quite blatantly. Let the theistic elements fail out in the eye of the global community, maybe even push it to the point that some countries start threatening embargo. The reputation of the US can be rebuilt if it throws aside its problems. It seems like the US gets a new try every 10-20 years anyhow, after a bad president fades from memory a bit.
-FST (I love it when I sign with alt ID’s)
I could envision a 4-year “God Science” program.
If I were to create one, it would substantially simliar to a psychology program, but would have concentrations in the study of mass hysteria, delusions, persuasions and cults of personality. Physical, chemical, biological, and ethical refutations of major religious works would be taught in the more senior years.
Electives would be primarily literary and philosophical in nature.
The resulting degree would be a BSc in Psychology, perhaps with a minor in philosophy.
Of course, I highly doubt her God Science program was anythign like that.
We had a Jewish chaplain over here in Naples for a while. The only times I ever saw him “at work” were for benedictions at social events. (Sometimes known as state-sponsored prayer). He always kept his benedictions vague enough that he could have been praying to anyone.
Sadly, he’s transferred now, and we have a Southern Baptist chaplain. I try to avoid him as much as I can. He seems very friendly, but I just don’t want to “go there.”
My husband and I were married by a Navy chaplain back in 1990. He was Methodist, and his surname was “Pope.” He was pretty cool, too.
Living overseas, I can see where Navy personnel and their dependents would want the services of a chaplain. I object to the arbitrary benedictions at command-sponsored events, but otherwise they’re generally pretty harmless over here.
What gets me are the homeschoolers, but that’s OT for this thread.
For more discussion about evangelical Christian infiltration into the armed services, go to this website:
Military Religious Freedom Foundation
http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/
@ Marcus Ranum:
Good thing times have changed with the VA. There’s an official atheist symbol for military headstones now. Scroll down to number 16
I’ve heard anecdotes and incidents about pro-religious discrimination, mostly in the air force, and I can only speak to experience with the Navy, but I’ve never seen firsthand or heard any of our friends complain about some pro-fundy conspiracy in the Navy. I think it would be impossible to pull off, and most of the people complaining about that possibility (here included) seem to have little or no military experience.
In my experience, officers and enlisted sailors are one of the most diverse (in many senses of that word) groups I’ve ever been around, better educated and more skilled in their fields than most of the civilians, and regardless of beliefs, most adhere to the maxim “Live and let live.” They mostly don’t care who you’re worshipping or sleeping with or what you’re reading or watching in your off-time as long as it doesn’t affect your work.
Certainly there are fundies in the ranks, but their numbers and behavior are similar to my experience in the civilian world, rarely moving beyond unwelcome invitations to church.
And no officer I’ve known has ranked their sailors by religious criteria when evaluation time comes along, or been privy to such behavior — and there are factors outside their control that affect who gets promoted in any case. Evaluations go through a chain of NCOs and officers who all have personal experience with these sailors and were mostly work together through random chance, and not for more than a couple years at a time — so a conspiracy to promote only the faithful would be difficult to impossible to pull off without someone noticing that the better sailors were being graded below the slackers.
If you get a chaplain thrust on you, ask for a Unitarian-Universalist. Probably the least annoying.
If some chaplains are trying to bring their version of God to someone who doesn’t want to be preached to, then yes, that should stop.
The problem, as the Harper’s article referred to above makes plain, is that the chaplain corps, in keeping with the trend in the US military overall, now disproportionately represents a sectarian, fundamentalist Christianity. And these fuckers aren’t really there to provide ecumenical spiritual counsel to frightened and morally confused young men and women in harsh circumstances (i.e., to do their job), they’re there to promote their narrow evangelical view. This is institutional. It is not a matter of a few bad eggs.
Worse, the officer corps is stuffed with these godbotherers too, and they’re forming little “Armies of God” within the military proper, in places like the Air Force Academy.
‘Vermin’, PZ? The voice of reason, as ever.
Katrina @ 61
Thanks for the link. The good old atomic nucleus, our coat of arms when I was still a member of American Atheists.
I’m with #34/35 – for better or worse, some soldiers believe in a god. That is their right, and I am all for their expressing that right for themselves.
But OUR ARMY IS NOT AN ARMY OF god. It is an army that fights for the welfare of our country, and those values we hold. Spreading the dogma of one particular religion or one particular god is WRONG.
I was disgusted when I read of the evangelical bulls**t at the Air Force Academy a couple of years ago. (I’m sure after getting my emails my Congressman and Senators have instituted a foul language filter…. Never write your representatives after even 2 beers). This is equally offensive.
And any bozo (with apologies to the real Bozo the Clown) who comes back and states that “the Constitution requires that there be no official US religion – it does not prevent us from evangelizing those heathens” should just take 10 minutes away from reading their skewed version of their bible and read the Constitution, or the Federalist Papers, or any other non-fiction document about how things really work.
Zeno–the exact same thing happened to me. I (and my officemates) attended a funeral of my supervisor’s son. The kid had depression and after breaking up with a girlfriend, he committed suicide. The funeral was at a church, and yep, the preacher went off talking about converting the heathens to the brand of Christianity he was peddling. I was thisclose to walking out–the event was to commemorate tragic death of a 23 years old. Not about fattening his @#$% church.
The Chaplains that behave like the one described above? Vermin seems appropriate to me.
Or are you just one of those drive by trolls who comes in and drops a load they think is witty and then flys off?
Cowgull.
Pragmatically, I think I’d almost like for the Xtian proselytizers to succeed. I’d much rather have a bunch of Xtian nations in the MidEast than the current Sharia-controlled mess currently there. Islam is dangerous, way moreso than the Xtian schill we deal with here. We get upset that they try to stop us teaching evolution? Try getting stoned to death for…nearly anything the imams don’t like.
Ideally, I agree with the rest of the sentiment here that all the proselytizing shouldn’t be done with U.S. money and in my name. But a little part of me would be happy if those chaplains’ teachings stuck and started to spread. And hey, maybe some folks would even question all belief in the supernatural and become atheists? (A guy can dream anyways…)
Re the earlier “chaplain in the hospital” anecdote.
I come from a Southern Baptist family, but it all seemed like a load of crap to me even as a kid (too much interest in science in general and paleontology and astronomy in specific for it to stick.) After my mother died at 60, my grandmother, in her early 80s, became an “unofficial” atheist- she saw how all her prayers for my mother failed, and pretty much just abandoned the God Hypothesis.
So– a year or so later she is in the hospital (a Catholic-based one, no less) and the Chaplain comes to visit. Her name was McDonald– my Grandmother says something about that name sounding familiar. I tell her that she is thinking about OLD McDonald (the one with the farm). We made small talk with the Chaplain. Pretty much ignored any hints dropped towards prayer or religion. She was polite while she was there, and never showed up again. :-)
Based on a well documented pack of lies , they (the USA gov’t) subjected a country to a massively gratuitous bombing campaign called”Shock and Awe”
Thousands died in those few nights alone.
They were innocent people who had never even threatened the USA and would permit the weapons inspectors to go anywhere at anytime.
It was premeditated and they were innocent.
How is that not murder….At least by the leaders.?
hank, if the fundies had their way, we’d be living in the equivalent of sharia law right now. it’s not the religion that keeps the US less violent, it’s that we have a (mostly) secular government that is based more on reason that on religious nonsense.
And remember , all the “guilty” Iraqis were safe in bunkers for the most part.
Hang on a second.
As a member of the OTC here in the UK, I’ve known two British Army padres. The old one was completely useless and hardly turned up to our unit at all. But the new one is a good guy. I’ve virtually never heard him talk about religion at all, and he certainly isn’t there to proselytise; his role is primarily to provide welfare support to members of the unit. Although all chaplains (in the British military) are ordained ministers, they’re very much required to be nonsectarian and to support all soldiers, regardless of religious belief or lack of it.
I will say that, in my (limited) experience, it seems like Army padres (in Britain, at any rate) are fairly autonomous from the chain of command and can more-or-less carve out their own role. So some of them do really good work, and others are a waste of space.
It’s rather like college chaplains in Oxford colleges – again, our college chaplain’s primary duties, aside from presiding at services, is to provide secular welfare support and pastoral care. When I went to speak to her last year, she told me that the vast majority of her work has nothing to do with religion; most of the time, students aren’t there to talk about God but about their personal issues.
Yes, it’s largely for traditional reasons that we have military and college chaplains, and they might seem anachronistic. But, like so many traditional institutions, they’ve adapted to serve a purpose in a modern, secular society.
Obviously, my experience applies only to the UK and I have no idea what the situation is like in the US.
Posted by: Katrina @71:
In my opinion a real atheist would not want his or her body buried. We’re just animals. We don’t bury dead squirrels. Why bury dead apes? Just cremate the corpse and throw the ashes in the garbage. Let the Christian morons waste their money on dead worthless bodies.
Just to get back on topic, it’s disgusting there’s Christians who want to convert Muslims from one idiotic religion to another idiotic religion. These idiots are just asking for another 9/11 attack.
For many the”Bush Doctrine” is considered criminal.
To seek out folks who “might be a threat ” to you at some point in the future, and “hunt them down” and kill them does sound a lot like murder.
bobxxxx:
IMHO, funeral customs aren’t really about religion, nor really about what the dead person wanted: They’re really about giving the surviving loved ones some comfort and a sense of closure.
And no, that’s not woo: You don’t have to believe anything superstitious to feel bereaved, and you don’t have to believe the deceased has gone anywhere to know that s/he is gone. Pronouncements about what a “real atheist” would do make me itch; I think a real human would want whatever sort of funeral would give his/her surviving loved ones the greatest comfort.
Personally, I like to imagine my ashes being launched on a rocket (‘cuz I think rockets are really cool)… but I don’t consider my wishes binding on whoever might be mourning me when the time comes. It has nothing to do with whether or not I’m a “real atheist.”
Of course we do. Not all of them (I’m not scouring the woods for dead squirrels), but it’s a whole lot better than letting the things stink and produce maggots, for instance, when it’s dead in your yard.
Burial is first and foremost a way of dealing with something gross and awful. Heraclitus said, rightly, that a corpse is more worthy to be thrown out than is dung. But you have to do more than just throw them in the back yard.
Sure, you can cremate, let the birds eat you up, or presumably, jackals and coyotes might do. Now there are composting methods.
Burial works just fine, and to finally tip my hat to sentiment, people do often like to have a little place in which to remember a dead relative/friend. Either way, you certainly have to do something more than let the dead body lie in the street–or swing rotting away from the gallows, as medieval punishment often did.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
Bill Dauphin:
I’m with you, to a point. Obviously, once I’m dead, I won’t care what happens to my body. However, I am allowed to make decisions while alive about what legacy I leave after me. Part of that is allowing my family whatever comfort they need, and part of that is not putting a mass of noxious chemicals in the ground in a metal box. I think I get some say in the matter. If it will comfort them to bury me, fine. Just put me, unpreserved, in a wooden box.
“I’d much rather have a bunch of Xtian nations in the MidEast than the current Sharia-controlled mess currently there. Islam is dangerous, way moreso than the Xtian schill we deal with here.”
If the US had the middle east’s poverty, instability and easy access to Ak-47s you wouldnt be able to tell the difference between them. Its just that American fundies have more to lose and have no reason to blow shit up when one of the two parties bends over backwards for them.
I’m sorry, PZ, but your post speaks of military chaplains in general, and I find them simply to be irrelevant (to me); this is neither dangerous nor destructive, nor does it erode the mission.
Should combat chaplains be evangelizing? Absolutely fucking NOT. Those people are the ones that I tend to agree with you on. But combat chaplains in general? In wartime, if it improves morale (and doesn’t harm those who don’t wish to be witnessed to), then it’s not only justified but useful.
I’m guessing you might find this to be silly yet justified, too, but maybe I’m wrong.
?
That’s REALLY FUCKING SCARY.
>”We don’t bury dead squirrels. Why bury dead apes?”
Well, Glen beat me to it. My answer was: fertilizer. And of course keeping it from smelling up the local environment.
I told my wife that I want to be buried in the literal ‘pine box’. Cremating just wastes fuel and adds noxious gasses to the atmosphere. Some of the latest caskets could probably double as a space capsule… another waste of material and energy. A pine box or even cardboard box ought to do just fine and quickly let the fungi, worms, bacteria and plant roots do their job.
BTW, up until a few years ago ‘Atheist’ was not an available choice under Religious Preference when registering for Veterans Administration health care. Within the last couple of years it was added, along with a whole slew of other choices. Of course atheism is not a religion but in the context of ‘religious preference’ it’s nice to at least have that choice. Previously the best choice was ‘None’ but to me that could imply “I don’t have a *preference*, I’ll accept any chaplain of any faith.” which is not what I would have meant by None. And why does the VA Hospital system need to know your religion? For the same reason as mentioned about civilian hospitals. So they can send the appropriate chaplain to visit you.
I still don’t see what purpose a chaplain serves that a therapist wouldn’t serve just as well, aside from offering prayers and possibly acting as an intercessory for God. I don’t see the First Amendment as endorsing military chaplains–perhaps if a draft were enforced, but when we have an all-volunteer army, soldiers know what they are getting into and what they are sacrificing, including officially supervised services. Not having chaplains is not infringing on their right to free exercise: they are still perfectly free to exercise whatever religion they want.
I feel like if chaplains do the job they are supposed to do: pray with soldiers who ask for it, give comfort and counciling when soldiers need it. Then they are a useful and valuable part of the military. Let’s face it, many people need their religion and while pushing religion on others is wrong it’s equally wrong to deprive people of it as well. Being a soldier is a tough job, we shouldn’t make it harder.
That said, the military needs to reform the chaplaincy. Crack down on those violating the code of conduct (which these chaplains are and that’s a bad example for other soldiers). Make them do their jobs and stop jeopardizing other soldiers and the military’s reputation.
(Can you tell I family in the military?)
@72 mentioned the US Navy as apparently less full of proselytizing chaplains. Some evangelicals seem to be aware of this as they have lawsuits wending their way through the courts claiming they are discriminated against in the Navy (e.g., Larsen vs. US Navy, see http://chaplainreform.com/ for the plaintiffs views). Note also it was the Navy that got rid of Klingenschmitt.
My own view is that military chaplains as social workers do serve a useful role; however, their tenure should not be dependent on affiliation with a particular religion (e.g., a chaplain who loses the endorsement of his religion should not be fired simply for that) and that non-religious chaplains should be allowed.
Ever since I was a kid I wanted to be buried in a peat bog or something similar so that thousands of years from now anthropologists could find me… :)
Bill–Yeah, I agree that we shouldn’t be referring to soldiers as murderers, at the very least for the reasons you detail in #55. And I’m not inclined to do that. I wrote comment #36 the way I did specifically because of the way Kemist wrote that last sentence in #33.
I guess the comment just struck a note with me. I know the words have very different meanings, and need to, but down range, in the mud and the blood and the broken bodies of little kids, well… Well, I guess I don’t know what to say, except that the parents don’t seem to care where we draw the line and neither do the widows, and I’ve got a pretty good idea of how the newspaper editorials would be referring to the “invaders” if this were happening in Boston rather than Baghdad. Anyway, the comment just struck a note with me. Sometimes the distinction seems a little hard to justify.
But this is getting OT. To topicize this comment, let me just report that you can have anything you bloody well want in the religion section of your dogtags. You can have them say “one shot; one kill” if you want.
Thanks for the apologies Tom Woolf. One of my Dad’s uncles was a local Bozo back in the days before satalites and every station had their own Bozo.
Anonymous:
First, Kemist’s original use of the word murder was in a context that suggested the normal mission of Special Forces soldiers — and, I infer, soldiers generally — were inherently “murderers,” and Kemist’s subsequent exchange with Josh suggested that the use of the word was intended to remind readers that the taking of a human life is Serious Business™. That’s what I was (politely, I hope) pushing back against: Not the question of whether any particular war or battle was moral, but whether soldiers doing what soldiers do is always and inherently murder.
I’m not a pacifist, and do not believe that every instance of military combat is immoral, and so I do not believe that killing in the context of military combat is necessarily murder.
Second, even when the war is immoral (as I believe the Iraq invasion to have been), I think it’s useful to maintain a distinction between murder and war crimes: If Private Jones kills Private Smith in their tent because Smith said something nasty about Jones’ girlfriend back home, that’s murder; if Smith and Jones set fire to a cottage full of noncombatant women and children, that’s a war crime; if Smith and Jones kill uniformed enemy soldiers who are trying to kill them, it’s arguably neither (even if the war their battle is part of is, in some larger sense, not just).
I insist on the distinction between murder and war crimes not because I want to whitewash the latter, but because I think war crimes are even more reprehensible (if such a thing is possible): When we give people (e.g., soldiers, but also cops) the provisional right to use deadly force, it becomes (IMHO) vastly more important that said use of force conforms to moral and legal boundaries. If you kill your neighbor because you’re pissed off, or because you want to take your neighbor’s stuff, that’s horrific… but it’s primarily a crime against one person; if you commit a war crime, it’s a crime against all of humanity, in that it attacks not only the people you kill, but the very fabric of our understanding of the limits on human behavior. Similarly, a cop who abuses the authority we’ve provisionally given him/her victimizes not only the proximate victims of his/her acts, but all of society.
So if an act of war is also criminal, calling it murder is to let it off easy. IMHO, of course.
Most chaplains aren’t that stupid. They can get court martialed for proselytizing.
“Why do we even have chaplains in the military?”
Why, to stand tall against the Godless Commies and….oh wait.
Never mind, wrong war.
Carry on.
That chaplin must have listened to Ann Coulter too long. Remember the “invade the countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity” remark?
Bill @101 is spot-on. We delegate most of the violence a society (regrettably) needs to the government, which in turn delegates most of it to police and military forces. These forces have a special responsibility not to abuse their charge. As a result, killing in combat is less morally problematic than murder, which is less morally problematic than war crimes.
They can get court martialed for proselytizing.
Maybe technically. But it’s not going to happen. This is institutional. Evangelicals are seriously trying to if not take over the military, then form a shadow military within a military, and they’re massively over-represented in the chaplain corps. I would imagine how they deal with any potential accusations of proselytizing is first by intimidation by fundie officers, and then the defense that if you take away the belligerent us vs. them rhetoric, “the only way to the father is through me,” there’s nothing left of evangelicalism in this form. It’s all they do; to them it’s conselling. Really.
“They’re dangerous and destructive, and erode the mission of our soldiers”
That’s great, since the mission of your soldiers is to oppress and kill people. Erode away.
Salty:
That’s your experience with the military.
That’s not everyone’s, nor the experience others have in every branch.
The Air Force was making the turn to funde lunacy while I was in.
I had an evaluating official rate me down because I didn’t have any community activities associated with a church, or could show that I “attended” church.
Certainly there are fundies in the ranks, but their numbers and behavior are similar to my experience in the civilian world, rarely moving beyond unwelcome invitations to church.
You needed to get out of the squids for a while, then.
More than the usual were fundies in my AF unit–and this was electronics, usually the more “live and let live” of the enlisted AF. One of these relgitards did more than ask people to go to church. He would go on long Jebus rant freaks about things like, oh, how God said women needed to be at home, serving their husbands–a rant he made against an “uppity” female (me) in a unit that was 30% female. He did this all the time. I spoke to my superiors, and they told me to “lighten up.” So I finally spoke to our EEO office, “Social Actions.”
Only then did something get done. But you can bet my “career” wasn’t going anywhere after that..
“Why do we even have chaplains in the military?”
Because wherever there is a hightened prospect of violent death, both delivered and sustained, there must needs be some consolation dispensed by those who believe they are best equipped to deliver it…
And turn the anguish into insanity.
In my opinion a real atheist would not want his or her body buried. We’re just animals.
As Bill Dauphin said upstairs, funerals aren’t for us, but for our loved ones.
Besides, the military has set aside a plot for me. Might as well use it, even if it’s only to put my ashes in.
The surviving loved ones might be more comforted if they didn’t give away their hard earned money to a worthless undertaker. The idea of spending money on a stinking corpse is repulsive to me. Dispose of it in the cheapest possible way and be done with it. Any decent person would want his relatives to do that, instead of wasting money for nothing.
This subject bugs me because I have seen poor people blow what little life savings they had to buy an expensive coffin, expensive funeral, etc, on what is really nothing more than a piece of garbage.
Atheists should know better. There is absolutely no difference between a dead cockroach and a dead human ape, no matter how successful and wonderful that person may have been when alive.
Instead of funeral (what an awful religious word that is), people can, if they want, have a couple of beers somewhere. Since when is having a funeral going to do anyone any good? Do people have fun at funerals? No, of course not. I’ve never seen so many miserable people as I have at a funeral.
I keep telling the Redhead to have me cremated, and then make sure my urn is put into her coffin under her hand. That way, I will be under her her thumb for a long time…
PZ,
Occasionally a military chaplain has stepped in to restrain the religious excesses of other military chaplains and non-chaplain line officers:
Critic of evangelicals relieved of Air Force post
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/05/14/critic_of_evangelicals_relieved_of_air_force_post/
The Lutheran chaplain who acted as a whistle-blower against Evangelical excesses was fired.
Chaplain Morton (who was fired) made the following observation in the article:
Morton said the cadet wing at the Air Force Academy is about 90 percent Christian. She said that group is about one- third Catholic, one-third mainstream Protestant, and one-third evangelical. But the evangelicals have a much bigger voice among the chaplains, she said.
”The predominance of evangelical Christians reflects the chaplain corps of the Air Force overall,” Morton said. ”The major mainstream Protestant divinity schools are no longer sending many graduates into the armed forces. And so the concentration of evangelicals among chaplains is strong through the whole service.”
I found having a good cry at my grandma’s funeral made me feel a bit better. Gave some closure, too — some sort of establishment that she had been alive and now she wasn’t. Granted there was lots of singing and drinking and telling stories the weekend beforehand, which pretty much happens any time you get the family under one roof.
The wake, however, made me wish I was my autistic brother, who is allowed to get away with bringing his game player and finding somewhere quiet to hole up. Not so much miserable as boring.
There was a story about some Marine in Vietnam getting into trouble with a chaplain for telling him that what they needed was a Satanist chaplain, not a Christian chaplain. Supposedly the Marine said “God’s supposed to be the good guy who watches out for you while Satan is the evil guy who’ll screw you over. Therefore we need someone to propitiate Satan and get him in a good mood.” Apparently the chaplain was not amused.
He blesses the boys as they stand in line.
The Smell of gun grease and their bayonettes they shine.
He’s there to help them all that he can.
To make them feel wanted he’s a good holy man.
Why do we even have chaplains in the military? That is a good question. Another good question — Why do we, in this day and age, have theology departments at major, reputable universities?
Are these seemingly disparate questions related? If you think about it, they are.
Rev. BigDumbChimp,
Since vermin as a term has a history of being used to dehumanise others I don’t think you have to be a troll to object to it. Vermin implies the desirability of extermination.
Personally, I think fucktard is more apt! (Possibly “traitor” if you believe in the concept, since they are directly undermining the military and the US constitution)
There is an iraq war mini-series, and in it is an intersting scene where a soldier goes off on how the chaplain is just another logistic nightmare because he has to be 1. transported 2. supplied 3. all in a war zone 4. and he won’t even pick up a gun (which he claims even ‘rolling stone’ would do if it came down to it, referring to the reporter that tags along on missions.)
Its a hard mini-series to watch (the name escapes me). It might be a little soon. I can’t turn away from band of brothers whenever its on, but this I couldn’t finish cause it was kinda hard. My friend told me about some stuff that his friend went through over there just after I bought it though (coincidentally it’s about his squad leader or his squad leader was in it or consulted on it. I never followed up on what it was exacetly he did.)
Still, I think one place I draw the line is with the military. The evangelicizing is not illegal, its only going to worsen relationships between the US and muslims. I do think if a chaplain helps soldiers get through it, then I’m ok with it. Those young men are living in a nightmare. Anything that can provide comfort I would hesitate taking away.
I know thats a very naive mindset to have, and I would very easily concede I am probably wrong, but I could never imagine what they go through is like.
Because “Theology,” strictly speaking, is about what people believe(d) about gods and why they believe(d) it. It’s a legitimate (and interesting) course of study.
Believing it is optional.
I can’t speak to the american military, but in our own armed forces the position of chaplain exists to minister to the soldiers spirituality. This is not so much due to the army being inherently religious but rather recognition of the fact that many soldiers are. Many chaplains act more often as counsilers rather than as priests, as such chaplains in the NZ military recieve training to that effect. I realise that most of us here are athiests and have significant problems with religion in general but i can’t help but feel that there is no more danger presented by a chaplain than you are likely to find in any religious person. As long as the military recrutes religious people it is only right that they should provide chaplains just so long as they also provide psychological care and do not descriminate or allow descrimination.
I do agree that people like Hensley should be run out in front of the courts martial. He is dangerous.
I enjoyed Bill’s post – #101. Its fantastic to read cogent, able minds.
I worked in the Air Force Chaplaincy for nearly 21 years, my career as a younger man. My experience was that evangelical chaplains almost always ended up retiring early, or missing promotion because they did not meet required standards. From my vantage point as an enlisted person I saw this as someone who would walk into your office and lambast you for being ‘sinful’ – listening to ‘rock’ music, or uttering some off-color comments in the staff meeting that they thought would not meet holy standards. Shortly before I retired a S. Baptist came into my office, closed the door, and began telling me about hell if I didn’t change my ways. I sat and smiled through his rant and thanked him for his ideas.
I also saw a serious need for chaplains in my time there. They were often the ONLY objective people around who would listen and there were many, many smart ones. They were important, especially at smaller deployments and bases, serving a purpose that kept people going in the worst of times. They proved themselves as an incredibly valuable resource for a commander to rely upon – a veritible ear to the ground concerning moral as one on the side of the troops themselves. Yet others were solid ass-kissers of the commanders. It wasn’t hard to tell who was who. Bottem line for me is, if the military can keep the wacko proseletizers out, as they’ve been successful doing in the past, I don’t see the chaplaincy as a bad thing. No doubt PZ’s post is just a sad reminder that a few slip through as they do in any professional position.
What secular officer corps?
About hospital chaplains; I actually kind of have a soft spot for them. A friend of mine had a stroke at 25, and the chaplain who tended to him was not only quite accepting of his atheism, but was kind of smokin’ hot. I’d actually think about going to any church she was at.
More interesting; my father recently told me that he was once a hospital chaplain, and actually really enjoyed speaking to sick/dying folk and making them feel better. However, he felt bad about having to give them so much bullshit; he became an atheist a couple years after starting seminary and quit to teach philosophy.
“What caliber bullets would Jesus use?”
— Wowbagger
Jesus doesn’t use bullets. He uses kung-fu. http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/421199
Not a wise strategy.
Sat down at a Blackjack table against intuition because of the smoking hot dealer last night,didnt do me any good financially,trust me.
I’m over here in the desert right now, with the Army, and I have to agree with the question posed in this post. These irritating, pontificating ignorants are hindering our mission to some degree, even in the office environment that I work in.
We get to firstly see them generally lounging around not doing much, while the rest of us work. I mean do real work that isn’t so out of line with our Bill of Rights. Though they aren’t always Christian (there are supposed to be chaplains for all faiths), that is pretty much all you find in most places, at least those that I’ve been to.
I’ve heard some of the more reprehensible stories of what goes on in some areas of Iraq and Afghanistan with these idiots, but so far all I’ve really seen is low level proselytizing, and even comments (these are very rare) such as, “we don’t want to make it seem like we are only here for one particular faith group (Xtians), and so we do not discriminate against anyone for their faith, EVEN NON-BELIEVERS”. If you knew how rare this kind of statement was, like me, you might even start to think that the military had started caring a bit about one of my favorite divides: separation of fantasy and state.
I still feel overly bitter being a part of something (Army)that I believe is important for the defense of a set of ideals (Costitution), and then to see it so regularly trampled on.
Matt – we appreciate your commitment, and knowing that people like you are still in there and holding firm is one of the few things that keep me hopeful about the state of our country.
Matt – we appreciate your commitment, and knowing that people like you are still in there and holding firm is one of the few things that keep me hopeful about the state of our country.
Argh. Double the comment means double the sentiment?
If you do [cut the Us military to 1/10 its current size), you will have completely different problems than military chaplains. Like cina invading thaiwan, north korea south korea, russia ukraine and EU, somalia iraq and afganistan turning into totalitarian nightmares, pakistan under taliban controll nuking your ass off, etc…– T_U_T
cina invading thaiwan? To get their “h” back, perhaps? China is not going to invade Taiwan unless the latter rashly declares independence, in which case China will do so, and the US will not prevent it. None of the Taiwanese I talked to when visiting a few years ago disagreed with this obvious analysis. You might have a case with North and South Korea, but more probably, China would restrain the North. Russia lacks the capacity to invade Ukraine, let alone the EU, even if it had the motivation, which it doesn’t. If it wanted to bring about Ukraine’s collapse it could easily do so, by turning off the gas tap – and that would also cause severe problems for the EU. Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan? You may not have noticed, but Somalia is a “failed state” and a base for piracy, in Iraq al-Maliki is well on the way to establishing himself as dictator, and in Afghanistan Karzai has just named a notorious warlord as one of his vice-presidential running mates. Pakistan: the Us military is making a sterling contribution to the advance of the Taliban by killing civilians with drones; all polls show the vast majority of Pakistanis are both anti-Taliban and anti-American.
Somalia? What Somalia? There is no Somalia. There is no state east of Ethiopia. It’s a hole in the political landscape of the world. Libertarian paradise: no taxes! (…Only protection money for religious gangs, I suppose, but probably even that not everywhere.)
Doesn’t his name mean “the royal one”?
How has US interference helped Somalia so far?
While not trying to sound too much on the other side, I am an atheist but this used to explain a great deal;
This more or less gives hope to those in the hell of war that there might be something better even thought there is no evidence for it.
Branedy, can you reprhase your comment? I had trouble following it, especially since:
isn’t true.
To: Celeste #14
I too ran into a County Hospital Chaplain after a near fatal accident. He came to visit me after I was able to speak. Up until then, to the best of my awareness, my treatment had been fine. After politely telling him “Please get out of my room, I don’t need or believe any of that mumbo-jumbo”, he left. So did my care. The next nine days were a nightmare I will never forget. He was a very popular man around the hospital. I became a pariah.
Pissing of a man of God in a hospital is like pissing off the chef who is about to cook your dinner. You are gonna eat spit.
They are, after all, just people… only the worst sort. One needs to tiptoe gingerly around them, for they do wield power and will use it when they can.
KG:
C’mon, now… visiting a place and talking to its people? That’s cheating, don’t you know? You’re supposed to just talk out of your ass here on teh intertoobz! ;^)
…in Afghanistan Karzai has just named a notorious warlord as one of his vice-presidential running mates.
Apparently the US military has come up with a new tactic though, apologizing quickly for civilian deaths. After what, almost eight years?
PZ this must be a rhetorical question for you. Simple answer if this was a serious question. Why Military Chaplains? Because the free exercise clause damn near mandates it and because the military has a responsibility to welfare of its service members to support their spiritual needs no matter how absurd they may seem to a casual observer. It is not the fault of the military as a whole that a draft-dodging, dry-drunk Jesus freak decided to make the military in his image. It is our fault for letting five Republican justices foist the idiot man-child on us in the first place.
somalia iraq and afganistan turning into totalitarian nightmares
That was one of the funniest things I’ve seen all day. Turning into? I suggest you read the news.
Josh, when you last in a Foxhole :-)