Let’s smash this silly poll about the status of the US.
Offended – America is still a Christian nation – 78.4%
Agree – No one religion is more important – 10.0%
Agree – Our country is not based on religious beliefs – 9.3%
Don’t care – 2.3%
Crazy. There’s something these people need to understand: that the nation and its government are secular does not mean that individuals cannot be religious. Similarly, this is not an atheist country, but that doesn’t mean a citizen can’t be an atheist.
Wow, they actually have an answer I like.
i love how the only option for disagree is that we are a Christian nation… so if you think its a jewish nation you dont get to vote
Nice one, they put in a couple of spoilers to split the opposition vote. An important demonstration of why tranferable voting is more democratic than any other form of balloting.
The Offeneds are still up 76.7%
I expect that to change shortly.
But seriously, how indoctrinated does one have to be to get offended by that statement of fact? It boggles the mind.
The second response (“No one religion is more important”) is incorrect as far as the United States is concerned because Christianity’s traditional but fading dominance has long given it pride of place as the most influential religion in the country (putting aside the fact that Christianity is splintered into thousands of sects). The statement is true in theory but not in practice (though we may be getting there).
I voted for “Our country is not based on religious beliefs”, which is badly lagging at the moment but will undoubtedly get a good push from PZ’s godless minions.
uh oh… is Diebold counting these votes? since i have multiple personalities i thought i should get 2 votes… so when voted 1st time it said total votes 956… but i just voted again with my phone (afterwards) and it says total votes 940… something fishy (do you like fishsticks?) is going on
That’s how all these polls are. I would consider ~20% voting some form of agree (before the poll gets PZ’d) in the mountain Kentucky area as a success for us.
Updated:
Offended – America is still a Christian nation – 55.0%
Agree – No one religion is more important – 7.9%
Agree – Our country is not based on religious beliefs – 35.4%
Don’t care – 1.8%
Total Responses – 1120
Voted, and it’s starting to landslide. Go minions!
UPDATE #2: (almost in the lead)
Offended – America is still a Christian nation – 47.3%
Agree – No one religion is more important – 7.6%
Agree – Our country is not based on religious beliefs – 43.6%
Don’t care – 1.5%
Total Responses – 1303
UPDATE #3:(in the lead)
Offended – America is still a Christian nation – 44.1%
Agree – No one religion is more important – 7.4%
Agree – Our country is not based on religious beliefs – 47.0%
Don’t care – 1.4%
Total Responses – 1396
I have “not based on religious beliefs” now at 46.4% to 44.6 for “Offended”! We’re in the plurality…
It seems to me that claiming America is a christian nation is the same thing as saying America is a white nation. right?
Offended – America is still a Christian nation – 44.3%
Agree – No one religion is more important – 7.5%
Agree – Our country is not based on religious beliefs – 46.7%
Don’t care – 1.4%
Total Responses – 1389
Proud to be part of the 46.7%!
Is this a Kentucky news station? That may explain why the Offendeds started out at 78.4%… if it’s mainly Kentucky citizens voting. It would probably be around the same here in Oklahoma where I’m from.
Gotta love crashing a poll in a rural area. Makes things a bit easier,eh? It looks like rationality is still in the lead.
This comes up a lot, but how can someone vote “don’t care”? If you vote, you care, right? Thank goodness my brain can handle dissonance without asplodin’.
Note the VERY CLEVAR poll manipulation where they give a single “Offended” response but two “Agree” responses, so that Offended could still claim plurality even if the actual response was close to 50/50.
Fortunately, Pharyngulite poll crashing negates such silly attempts at skewing the results.
Offended – America is still a Christian nation – 37.4%
Agree – No one religion is more important – 6.8%
Agree – Our country is not based on religious beliefs – 54.5%
Don’t care – 1.2%
Total Responses – 1652
woo hoo! Nice work!
Offended – America is still a Christian nation – 36.5%
Agree – No one religion is more important – 6.8%
Agree – Our country is not based on religious beliefs – 55.5%
Don’t care – 1.2%
Offended – America is still a Christian nation – 36.3%
Agree – No one religion is more important – 6.7%
Agree – Our country is not based on religious beliefs – 55.8%
Don’t care – 1.2%
Total Responses – 1706
Wow. Back-to-back votes with David M, OM. Sorry for the duplicate numbers posted simultaneously.
“There’s something these people need to understand: that the nation and its government are secular does not mean that individuals cannot be religious.”
But in many cases it goes beyond that. Certain fundies feel that it is their right to live in a theocratic state based on thier own religion, and imagine the US to be just that. They mythologize the framers as religious nuts of thier own persuasion, and proclaim the separation of church and state a liberal fiction.
Where’s the option that says America was created by the FSM’s noodly appendage?
They also say the bible is a work of NON-fiction. Perhaps a wee bit of confusion exists when it comes to the distinction between fiction and non-fiction?
Offended – America is still a Christian nation – 32.7%
Agree – No one religion is more important – 6.4%
Agree – Our country is not based on religious beliefs – 59.8%
Don’t care – 1.1%
Total Responses – 1894
The earlier result, Offended – America is still a Christian nation – 78.4%, is disgusting. Christian retards need to understand not all Americans are as insane as they are.
Is there a positive correlation between misunderstanding the bible and misunderstanding the US Constitution?
I’d vote for a Pastafarian nation.
It is the one true way.
It is worth remembering that the US Treaty with Tripoli of 1796, Act 11 clearly states: As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;….
That was the official position taken by the founders as a matter of law at the time
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html
Thy bidding has been done, O Squid Master.
How may I be of additional service?
5 minutes and already flipped the other direction lol
“There’s something these people need to understand: that the nation and its government are secular does not mean that individuals cannot be religious.”
Secular?
Declaration of Independence: “Endowed by his CREATOR with inalienable rights…” What kind of CREATOR do you think they had in mind? Evolution?
Our money: “In GOD we trust” What kind of God are we trusting? The Federal Reserve? The U.S. Treasury?
Our Congress: Every session is opened by a prayer by a Religious Chaplain. Who are they praying to? Genetics?
Our Courts: To tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you GOD? Who are they swearing to under the penalty of perjury? The sun or the moon?
And you say “there’s something these people need to understand”. What would lead them to this new understanding? Certainly not a government that exempts all religious organization from taxation.
Secular? You’re living in a fool’s paradise.
I clicked the third option, which is now at……….wait for it……………..66.6%!!!!
Muuwahahahahaha!!!!
Right-wing extremist Christianists always gravitate to the “Offended” option. They don’t know much about history, science, or politics, but they do know umbrage.
They do understand the difference, PZ. It’s just that they like to lie. It’s a habit than can’t break and don’t want to.
You are aware that was put on the money in the 50’s to differentiate us from teh “godless pinko commies”, right?
Which creator SF? Point to me exactly what is meant by that. Then show me something other than that nebulous term than proves the government is non-secular as visioned and established by the founding fathers.
The rest of your post is worthless and exposes the fact you don’t understand what is relevant to this discussion as well as having an extremely myopic and broadly ignorant view of history.
When did in god we trust become an official motto?
What else was going on during that time.
The fools being people such as yourself who continue to propagate this idiocy and are largely left unchecked.
Of course America is a Christian nation, it even says so on the money: “In God We Trust”.
*ducks*
Agree: 68.2% of 2498 responses ^_^
Offended: a mere 24.9%
Here’s another one of their polls from a year ago:
http://www.wkyt.com/polls?pollID=17746229
I’m beginning to sense a theme here.
@ #32 I’ve served in a court. You do not have to say so help you god. You swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Same with the military; you swear or affirm to serve to the best of your ability and god is not required.
Our original currency had no reference to god. That is a more modern imposition of the religious creotards first imposed on us by the Treasury. This bit comes from their web site.
Re: my #38
I thought that should be said for hilarity value, since I never thought anyone, other than an dribbling imbecile far too stupid to operate a computer, would seriously present it.
See #32.
Priceless.
This is a community that when asked
Should jails use pink jumpsuits for inmates?
Overwhelmingly voted (63.2%) Yes.
http://www.wkyt.com/polls?pollID=41569772
Don’t they know the imates will all catch gay if they do that?
“You are aware that was put on the money in the 50’s to differentiate us from the “godless pinko commies”, right?”
I also know that the government of this country spends millions of your tax dollars today funding “FAITH-based communities. I also know that whatever charitable work these communities do is based on their FAITH and not on some form of secular altruism.
The question remains: what would lead one to believe that this is a secular country?
#42 Emmet the oracle
Hahaha
@Silver Fox
Swearing in court is not mandatory. You can affirm you are going to tell the truth. Various religious groups have trouble swearing oaths.
Reread Matthew.
WOW… this is surprising though
Results: Should prayer and the Ten Commandments be allowed in schools?
Poll Results:
Yes – 41.0%
No – 58.7%
Undecided – 0.2%
Total Responses – 2009
http://www.wkyt.com/polls?pollID=23697249
did this poll get Pharynulated in July 5, 2008?
doesn’t look like enough votes for that…
Are you really this fucking stupid?
The government also gives money to secular organizations.
The question remains: what would lead one to believe that this is a christian country?
“Agree” is up to 70.5% now.
Time to deliver a little history lesson to Silver Fox, who is old enough to know better, but doesn’t:
1) Jefferson, like many founding fathers, was a deist. The modern equivalent of Universal Unitarianism. Jefferson’s point was about equality, not creationism. The theory of evolution wouldn’t be postulated until long after Jefferson’s death. Had he ever heard of the TOE, he would have embraced it wholeheartedly.
2) In God We Trust, perhaps the most blasephemous words that could be stamped on currency (you serve one lord or the other, right?) during the Civil War (or War of Northern Aggression), was added during a period of great upheaval, turmoil, and an evangelical reawakening movement. Nothing to do with the founding fathers, just more lip service to the godbots, and a little bit of trying to curry favor with the almighty to help your side win.
3) I’m surprised you didn’t toss out “Under God” in the pledge as an example, but I guess you might know the history of that one, having probably lived through that time period, if not actively supporting the whole Red Scare douchebaggery..
4) In court, you have the option to swear (to a higher being) or to affirm (on one’s honor). You are also permitted to swear to Allah, but it doesn’t happen often for fear of the christofacist backlash. These people prefer to be re-elected, and they’ll suck the metaphorical teat of any group that will support them.
Your whole argument is the “Appeal to Tradition” logical fallacy, and as such it fails as a logical argument.
If you’re so fucking unhappy in a secular state, go live under Taliban rule you fucking GodNazi.
Power hungry ideologues with an insatiable desire to foist their dogma onto the masses?
I wonder how many people would be offended if the question had to do with America being a white country.
HA! That’s my wife’s hometown station. She’ll get a kick out of this.
Good point AJ.
Our Congress: Every session is opened by a prayer by a Religious Chaplain.
ORLY? Is it one denomination or do they rotate? I’m just wondering if they’d accept a cthulhu-cult chant. I have some friends who do a really good job with the glottal gurgles; we could grab our robes and obsidian knives and be in DC in a few hours. I bet they’d have a sudden change of heart about the whole prayer thing.
Well there was this one time…
Agree – Our country is not based on religious beliefs – 73.2%
At 12:34 PM EST (or is it EDT?), I think this poll has been officially Pharyngulated.
Disagree: 21.3%
Agree A: <6%
Agree B: ~72%
I think its interesting that ‘Agree A’ (no one religion is more important) is getting badly trounced by even ‘Disagree.
America is a Secular Nation. We refuse to take your religious beliefs into account when demanding your loyalty.
Just voted. Results:
Offended – America is still a Christian nation – 20.2%
Agree – No one religion is more important – 5.5%
Agree – Our country is not based on religious beliefs – 73.4%
Don’t care – 0.8%
“The question remains: what would lead one to believe that this is a secular country?”
er….The US Constitution? Jeez, I’m not even a US citizen and I know that.
The two “Agree” categoies are up to a total of just under 80%.
The Jeebofascists talk about “Freedom of Religion” but they mean “Freedom of THEIR Religion”, and all others take a distant back seat, as Rev. BigDumbChimp so ably points out.
I wonder how many would be offended if Obama had only said, “We do not consider ourselves a theocracy”…. simply because they wouldn’t have understood the meaning of such a big, scary, elitist, polysyllabic word. However, I’m quite glad he singled out the big three monotheistic religions, just to make sure they were listening.
It amazes me that such a high percentage of conservatives who blather on about learning from the past (and are afraid of the future) don’t actually know anything about it.
The Constitution was roundly derided as being overtly secular when it was written. It’s a secular document. How can anyone who has read it see otherwise?
You heathen Americans even have shops open on Sundays! And on Good Friday! And you dare call yourself a Christian Nation(TM)? In god-fearing Germany (and Austria), in contrast, you cannot go shopping on such a holy day. Which is particularly nice for the Netherlands, Belgium and France which got overwhelmed by an influx of German shoppers today.
Offended – America is still a Christian nation – 18.8%
Agree – No one religion is more important – 5.3%
Agree – Our country is not based on religious beliefs – 75.1%
Don’t care – 0.8%
Well in fairness, until recently you could not buy alcohol on Sunday in a large parts of the country.
That’s changed some, you can now buy beer and wine, but no liquor and not before noon on Sunday*.
*laws vary by location
Being Jewish (of the non-religious variety, who barely remembered what to say at the Seder that I was forced to attend), I always start looking for an exit strategy from the country when loudmouths proclaim that we’re a Christian nation (whatever that means).
BTW, I seriously enjoy watching us mess up those polls. This is fun!
Dahan, these people aren’t really “conservatives”. That label has been hijacked by regressive fabulists wishing for a past that exists only in imagination.
For sure, that’s why they generally like to refer to the Declaration of Independence as our “national” founding document. They just love the “endowed by their Creator” reference. They are miserable, deluded, and dishonest.
Chimp,
The only thing I miss about the Blue Laws of my native PA are that they protected a lot of mom & pop shops that got to take Sunday off and not have to hire employees to compete. It was a serious blow for them and may have caused some to close. However Wal-Mart was a much bigger blow – sort of like a backhoe as compared to a trowel against the little guys but … oh, well.
Question: Are you [SF] really this fucking stupid?
Answer: Yes indeedy! And eager to spout nonsense, to boot.
Any other questions?
You are aware that was put on the money in the 50’s to differentiate us from teh “godless pinko commies”, right?
You are thinking of when (and why) “under God” was stuck in the Pledge of Allegiance. “In God We Trust” has been on the currency much longer (as others have already pointed out)
Yep. I run into people all the time that claim the DoI as law.
There is no requirement that it be a xian. Sometimes it is a Rabbi. Once it was a Hindu priest and the xians bigots tried to disrupt it and got arrested.
So much for that nonreasoning.
It seems to me that people don’t understand very well (or make no attempt at) differentiating a belief in a god from a belief in a religion. To believe in a religion means you believe in incongruous and infantile anecdotes that defy the laws of physics. To believe in a god means simply to believe in an Absolute, whether personal or not. I’m sure a Pantheist’s definition of god is different from a pig-ignorant Christian’s definition of god. The Creator mentioned in the Dec. of Independence makes no claim to the Christian god and neither does the mentioning of god on currency.
In any case, to me, faith is a conscious sacking of human intellect and individual worth – an egotistical, vindictive, boorish, and pathetic discharge of empty, candidly despicable reasoning.
Agree up to 77.3
Enjoy.
Never really thought about that side of it.
Uhm, Chimp we’re actually always a bit apprehensive when the Germans decide to visit us an masse. :P
Actually, most shop in NL are closed on sundays too.
Regards,
Rhysz
I like the way TJ spelled it “Hindoo.”
That makes me grin.
Feels like being a Sentinel.
1:13 PM
16.8% offended
05.3% no imnportant religion
77.2% US not based on religious beliefs
00.7% don’t care
3741 total votes.
While true, “In God We Trust” was not made the official national motto until 1956.
It was not mandatory on currency until 55 and did not appear on paper until 57, though as you said first appeared on currency in the mid/late 1800’s.
And another thing about this god word that maybe I don’t get. The word god is a job title, not a name. Saying “I believe in God”, or “One Nation Under God” isn’t grammatically correct is it? Is it not like saying “I believe in Lawyer”, or “One Nation Under Janitor”? Certainly people can believe in a god, or many gods, or ever the god named yahweh. I guess it just bugs me how the religious have co-opted the language to artificially bolster and lend credibility to their insane ideas about reality.
ever = even
Well it’s commonly posited that God is “his” name and god is “his” title.
Understood Rev., it just doesn’t make sense to me, and it bothers me how they twist language and logic to prop up their world view. Since they have no hard evidence (and mountains of evidence against them), they’re faced with manufacturing the truth behind their ideas about reality. Over the centuries they’ve become expert at linguistic hand-waving and pirouettes.
@Alex:
The fun part is if you combine that with article XI from the Treaty with Tripoli. Then, the Creator referenced in the DoI is NOT the Christian God. :)
Hulk crush tiny poll!
It’s very telling that they chose to split the vote among one side of the poll results. While the concept of using polls to reflect any meaningful cross-section of the populous is indeed vacuous, the results are further skewed because they can report whichever “Agree” vote count is lowest when describing the results in the future
(e.g. “78.4% of those polled said they were offended, while 10.0% felt that no religion is more important.”)
Big Dumb:
“Which creator SF? Point to me exactly what is meant by that. Then show me something other than that nebulous term than proves the government is non-secular as visioned and established by the founding fathers.”
John Adams and John Hancock:
“We recognize no sovereign but GOD, and no King but JESUS.”
April 18, 1775
“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity.”
John Adams
God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid?
Benjamin Franklin [Portrait of Benjamin Franklin].
Hamilton worked with the Christian Constitutional Society to spread two ideas which he thought made America great:
1) Christianity
2) A Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitution Society,its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States” Alexander Hamilton.
“The Constitution was made only for a moral AND religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other”. John Adams, October 11, 1798.
Still, the question remains what would lead one to believe this is other than a Christian nation?
How close is this station to Ken Sham’s Cretinist Museum?
Update:
Offended – America is still a Christian nation – 14.1%
Agree – No one religion is more important – 5.5%
Agree – Our country is not based on religious beliefs – 79.8%
Don’t care – 0.6%
Total Responses – 4532
Offended – America is still a Christian nation – 14.4%
Agree – No one religion is more important – 5.4%
Agree – Our country is not based on religious beliefs – 79.5%
Don’t care – 0.7%
Total Responses – 4399
This station WYMT is about 3-4 hours or so from the Creationist Museum. I live in NC now but I grew up in Kentucky watching this station. Funny it should appear on here. The other station mentioned WKYT is located in Lexingotn and is quite a bit closer maybe an hour away.
@78: My local grocery store closes on Sundays. It used to just rope off the liquor aisle and refuse to sell alcoholic drinks on the holy day, but now it closes. In small communities that might work…fewer people to be inconvenienced. The store also advertises an annual stock-up-for-the-end-times sale. You can phone in your order ahead of time and they will put your goodies on a pallet, shrink wrap the whole deal and then load it into the back of your truck with a fork lift.
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
It’s at 80.3% now for the 3rd option.
I love this game! When can we play again?!
The fact that you believe it is the case. You are the well meaning fool, that we ask your opinion on a topic, in order to invert it so that it approximates reality. SF, the well meaning fool. We are a secular nation and always have been. To say other means you are deluded. Which we already know.
Here’s one that will interest you.
“The Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen.”
John Adams’ letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 25, 1813
Hah! Slashdot can crow all it wants, but wymtnews.com just got “Pharyngulahed!”
The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?
— John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815
God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.
— John Adams, “this awful blashpemy” that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D Cardiff, What Great Men Think of Religion, quoted from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief
It’s easy to cherry-pick quotes to suit your purposes.
So if someone finds a quote where one of the founders said “Don Quixote” was their favourite book would it mean the US was now a windmilling fighting nation?
And SF, that has nothing to do with the price of beans in Chicago on Tuesday. You godbots are so stupid. Personal opinion is not equal to official government policy. That is even worse than your “god is perfect” idiocy. I you are as smart as you think you are, you would just stop posting such tripe.
If we’re going to keep quoting at each other, these are some personal favorites of mine:
“Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.”
— Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814, responding to the claim that Chritianity was part of the Common Law of England, as the United States Constitution defaults to the Common Law regarding matters that it does not address. This argument is still used today by “Christian Nation” revisionists who do not admit to having read Thomas Jefferson’s thorough research of this matter.
“… the common law existed while the Anglo-Saxons were yet pagans, at a time when they had never yet heard the name of Christ pronounced or knew that such a character existed.”
— Thomas Jefferson, letter to Major John Cartwright, June 5, 1824 (see Positive Atheism’s Historical section)
EMU@96
“It’s at 80.3% now for the 3rd option.
I love this game! When can we play again?!”
The next time PZ tells you to.
couldn’t the pz hoard spread them selves out a little. I mean there are two agree options.
@ SilverFox (#90)
You need to provide sources for those quotes. They seem very suspicious.
For example, a search for “The Constitution was made only for a moral AND religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other”. returns only 2 hits, one is an article from 2003 by some god-botherer, ant the other a facebook post referencing that article.
Silver Fox,
Well for starters how about examples of said values instead of quotes? All you have is quotes about how this country was founded on the principles of christianity, but you offer no proof.
For example, christianity demands everyone be christian. It’s their first commandment. But in this country there’s freedom of religion and non-establishment of religion. That goes directly against the christian principle of making others be christian. Our freedom of religion is clearly anti-christian.
Another example is democracy. It existed at the time christianity was invented but where is in mentioned in the christian bible? It isn’t! How many other pre-US christian nations were democracies? None! Democracy is ant-christian.
Trial by jury, no cruel and unusual punishment, confronting your accusers, petitioning your government, no unwarranted search/seizures, balance of power, etc are all anti-christian because those values go against the values christianity demands.
The only christian value that helped create our nation was slavery and that was outlawed over a century ago.
Without examples, all your quotes are meaningless.
Again, show me in the law.
It’s no doubt that there were Christian founding fathers, but they were smart enough to know better than to limit us to being a Christian nation or to be under the thumb of faith as well as submitting faith to the rule of law.
Your first John Adams quote was a response from him and Hamilton to a British major ordered them and those with them to disperse in the name of George the sovereign King of England
The Franklin quote “God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid?”
Here’s what Ed has to say about that
Seems to me you’ve probably been reading too much David Barton SF that or partaking in this.
Here are some real quotes. I can provide more if you’d like.
———–
Madison -Letter to Robert Walsh, March 2, 1819
Madison -From the “Memorial and Remonstrance,” 1785
Madison -Letter to F.L. Schaeffer, Dec. 3, 1821
Madison -“Detached Memoranda,” date of authorship unknown, estimated between 1817 and 1832
Madison -Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822
Madison -Letter to Jasper Adams, 1832-1833 (date uncertain)
Thomas Jefferson to Jeremiah Moor, 1800.
Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, 1813. ME 14:21
Thomas Jefferson to N. G. Dufief, 1814. ME 14:128
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” (1787-88)
John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” (1787-88<
According to the great mathematician, Paul Erdos, God is the “Supreme Fascist,” or “SF” for short. It gives these references to Silver Fox as “SF” an extra boost of irony, which I find so funny in my nerdy little way.
Have I somehow missed a reference to PZ as a recent guest the Reasonable Doubts podcast? (http://doubtreligion.blogspot.com) I’m still downloading it now, but I’m sure it’ll be a good listen.
If it’s a xtian nation, the people who wrote the Constitution really goofed up. These are the first 10 words of the Bill of Rights:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…”
And when one reads that entire document, not one mention of god, bible, xtian, jebus, cross, resurrection, or salvation.
Ooops!
Silver Fox said: Our money: “In GOD we trust” What kind of God are we trusting? The Federal Reserve? The U.S. Treasury?
Your God may be awesome but my God can bail out AIG. Tremble before the POWER of thy LORD The Federal Reserve.
That’s actually a good slogan for them. The Federal Reserve: More money than God.
Which says exactly zero about what Adams thought about the nation being a Christian one.
You know what else he said about the bible?
Letter to John Calder, Augt. 21. 1784
John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, November 4, 1816
A note in John Disney’s Memoirs (1785)
John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, Nov. 14, 1813.
Offended – America is still a Christian nation – 12.4%
Agree – Our country is not based on religious beliefs – 81.6%
Everyone is jumping all over Silver Fox but I have to say that I wasn’t at all in disagreement with his (or is it her?) original statement. As much as I dislike the situation, if I were a new visitor to “My Hometown”(tm) it wouldn’t take long for me to assume that this is a Christian country. As I drive around I pass *hundreds* of Christian churches. I have seen 1 mosque and maybe 2 or 3 Jewish centers and 1 Scientology headquarters. If I scan the radio dial I find 3 or 4 Christian stations and none of any other religion. Same for local TV. The Government is closed on Sunday as are many infrastructure businesses. There are Christian book stores, Christian schools, Bible this, Jesus that, a church on every street corner. I don’t want this to be a Christian nation, it shouldn’t be a Christian nation, but you’d be hard put to convince a visitor that it isn’t.
Hell, that’s pretty much why we’re all here at PZ’s house. Seeking refuge from the rampant Christianity running wild in our country. Is this a Christian nation? I voted NO out of sentiment and desire not out of (apparant) reality.
I must say that Silver Fox provides some excellent entertainment. Rarely have I seen such excellent cherry picking. He comes in with a small handful of quotes from one man out of many, quotes that may or may not support the notion of the US as a Christian country, and then act as if the matter is settled.
Of course we can pull up any number of quotes from founding fathers and other early, leading political figures that say the exact opposite. Even I, as a non-American, know a few (my favorite being the classic from the treaty of Tripoli, which has an article beginning with “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion” and was ratified by an unanimous vote in the senate) and I suspect that SF knows a few damning quotes too. But the art of cherry-picking is strong in him, so that apparently doesn’t matter. It’s quite amusing.
And of course I have to repeat the question that has been on everyone’s lips: Are there any American laws clearly founded in Christianity? Doesn’t it seem odd that almost all ten commandments are directly contradicted by American laws, if the laws were based on the bible?
And to Die Anyway, #114: I see your point, but there is a very big difference between a Christian nation and a nation with a lot of Christians. As previously mentioned, America is a nation with a lot of white people, but it’s not a white nation.
@Silver Fox: “In GOD we trust” What kind of God are we trusting? The Federal Reserve? The U.S. Treasury?
Clearly, that god would be Mammon, who seems to have accumulated more adherents than any other deity.
As for swearing in witnesses in court, I’ve been practicing law for more than 25 years and haven’t heard the “under god” phrase used more than a few times, whether in Federal or state court. People expect to hear that phrase, though, because they’ve heard it in the movies and on tv so many times.
Some state court systems and venues may still be invoking the deity against their citizens in court, but that’s a practice sure to offend highly observant members of certain religions as much or more than it offends nonbelievers.
Standard practice in the venues where I practice is to use the phrase “under penalty of perjury pursuant to the laws of the United States.” And let me add that people really startle to attention when they hear that phrase. They also take it a lot more seriously than “so help me god.” Their god might forgive a few lies, but the courts are not so generous.
“As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] … it is declared … that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries….
“The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation.”
— Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams (the original language is by Joel Barlow, US Consul)
Big difference between “is” and “contains a lot of”.
Silver Faux, failing to understand history AND religion in one fell swoop:
“Still, the question remains what would lead one to believe this is other than a Christian nation?”
I dunno, dumbass, how about 300+ years of protracted genocide of the indigenous peoples? Sound christian to you asshole? Don’t hand me any bullshit about how there’s more Cherokee now than in 1800, either. Several tribes were eradicated, period. That’s genocide. Unfortunately, Christians commit genocide with terrifying frequency. So, yeah, I guess the US IS a Xian nation. Murdering, bigoted, racist, and utterly inhumane. You know, REAL Christians.
Thank the lord! :-)
From one of their news videos (State officials arrest people for trading coyotes): “and now those charged are facing charges.”
In honor of Silver Fox, I left some comments in this thread here:
http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/04/10/beliefnet_easter/comment-page-2/#comment-1297342
“the real meaning of easter”
For each and every godbot let there be an equal and opposite reaction.
In God We Trust, all others pay cash. :)
“The Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more
philosophyhorseshit than all thelibrariesmanure piles I have seen.”I think I fixed it.
SF:
You are aware that the Declaration of Independence was a political document, not a legal one.
I love crashing polls.
UPDATE
Offended–America is still a Christian nation- 11.1%
Agree–No one religion is more important – 5.3%
Agree– not based on religious beliefs – 83.0%
Don’t care – 0.6%
Total Responses – 6160
I don’t want to get too far into this godbotting business or PZ will once again be throwing people into the dungeon.I would like to keep this interchange at an intellectual level that preserves a basic sense of civility.
You want to see examples of religious influence on laws. Well there are laws that says we will use taxpayer money to support faith-based communities which do charitable work based on their expression of their FAITH. That’s your money in the service of FAITH.
There are laws saying that religious organizations are exempt from taxes solely on the fact that they are religious as distinguished from other non-profits.
We have laws against prostitution and crime against nature. These are usually referred to as victimless crimes, so they would not ordinarily be expected to attract the attention of the minions of the law, but they do, because they violate religious tenets.
The point to be made is that the laws, customs and over all ethos of this nation is riddled with Christian nuances that would not lead one to believe that he is living in a secular society which is the opposite of what PZ implied at the head of this thread. All the protestations that followed these simple observations are ideological knee-jerks by individuals with a non-religious agenda because I claimed that those seeing themselves as living in a “secular” nation or dealing in wishful thinking or living in a fool’s paradise.
@128 Silver Fox: An excellent list.
Excellent in that it shows that to the extent the U.S. fails to be a secular nation, it becomes senselessly authoritarian and preferential towards a bunch of stupid religious notions which have no basis in fact.
To the extent the U.S. is a “christian nation,” it is an abominable one.
Ok you really are that stupid and myopic.
The reason these laws exist is precisely because of the Separation of Church and state.
You fucking fucking fucking idiot.
That ranks up there with the Barb
comment.
Ok that settles it. I’m off to the liquor store.
another update cause i was bored and had a calculator, this is about how many votes each one has received out of 6258
Votes Percentage
off 682 10.90%
agr 325 5.19%
agr 5209 83.24%
don 42 0.67%
Silver Fox: Not all of the things on your list are desirable in a truly secular state, that is true. But at most your list shows that America’s government has more respect for religion than it should have, to some extent and in some ways.
But the question was from the start “Is it a Christian nation?” and none of what you say points towards any particular religion. I’m pretty certain that Jews and Muslims and whatever can reap the same benefits as the Christians when it comes to those things, which of course is a sign of a secular nation. Not one based on any particular religion.
And honestly? You think that we couldn’t come up with any reasons to have regulations about things like prostitution without religious books?
And I’m still wondering… If you do believe that American laws are based on religious tenets, and that the US is a Christian nation, why are then American laws incompatible with the ten commandments?
Silver Fox, if you post again with such nonsense you will be the first to go with another session of Survivor Pharyngula. And just for the record, every tax break allowed for a xian church, is also allowed for mosques and synagogues, and even Scientologists. So the law doesn’t imply xian at all, just religious in any form. And to get the tax break, the church is supposed to stay out of politics (which some churches do anyway, and for that they should be taxed). Score another big idiocy for one of our prime godbotting idiots.
Here’s a hint on how to not appear stupid. Keep your mouth shut.
They changed the poll. Think they realize that they have been pharyngulazed.
Well done people, both with the poll and with wasting the foolishness of SF.
I am so tired of people posting those same, tired old misrepresented or plain false quotes by the ff without reading the actual documents. SF, do your homework, most of the actual quotes of the ff’s are available from reputable and unbiased sources. When taking something from myspace or facebook, consider the source. If it only appears once or twice onthe entire www, doubt it.
Actually I suppose the FB reference was probably your FB page wasn’t it.
therev
Final Count from the “Recent Poll” section
Offended – America is still a Christian nation – 10.8%
Agree – No one religion is more important – 5.2%
Agree – Our country is not based on religious beliefs – 83.2%
Don’t care – 0.7%
Total Responses – 6388
Nerd:
“And to get the tax break, the church is supposed to stay out of politics”
Fat chance. If you took the time to go to church you would know that that is a fiction. They could post campaign posters on the front door of the church and no one would take away any tax exemptions and you know that.
“The reason these laws exist is precisely because of the Separation of Church and state.”
The Separation Clause is a “separation of Church and State?”
Fat chance. That clause prohibits the State from interfering with religious practice. It does not in any way preclude the Church (congregations) from interfering with the government when the government interferes with their beliefs. There are too many examples of that to list, e.g. abortion, stem cell research, creationism in public schools, etc. etc. A devout Christian cannot separate himself into a political person and a person of faith.
“every tax break allowed for a xian church, is also allowed for mosques and synagogues, and even Scientologists. So the law doesn’t imply xian at all, just religious in any form”
The Christian organizations get the bulk of the tax benefits. Christians are fair and just people so if some of the benefits go to others, that’s just fine.
Silver Fox #128
Your post has a lot of flaws. First xity isn’t the only religion that’s against prostitution or “laws against nature”. Islam also forbids those things and I doubt you’d claim this was an Islamic nation.
Second the taxpayer money to support faith-based communities and tax exemptions apply to any religious group, not just the xian ones. If this was a xian nation as you insist, then there would only be xian groups getting our tax money.
You have not listed anything specific to christianity that is not shared by other religions.
Silver Fox #137
So what you’re saying is that if xians do something illegal (like violate their tax exempt status), it’s OK. They think about “interfering with the government when the government interferes with their beliefs” and think it’s their right to MAKE the government interfere with the beliefs of OTHER religions. Not being held to the law doesn’t make what you do moral.
“Christians are fair and just people” you’re kidding right? If that were even remotely true, they wouldn’t be insisting on special rights and they would acknowledge that we are a secular nation. They do not acknowledge the right of people NOT to be christian. The fact that the only way they could get tax money is to share it with others (otherwise it would establish a religion) is not an act of charity, but greed. If they could keep all the money for themselves, they would.
Ummm no. Wrong. The IRS has taken action. Read all about it here.
Well Duh. The majority of tax exempt entities are Xian churches. Just look around they are everywhere.
Solution to the budget deficit , tax churches. And if Xians really are as giving as they make out to be they shouldn’t have any objection to this.
You really are an idiot.
The Separation is there to protect both the meddling of the State in church affairs and the church from meddling in State affairs. That’s why when churches try and politic against or for specific candidates from the pulpit they can lose their 501c3 status. They can also lose it under certain rules of lobbying. Granted this isn’t enforced as much as it should be, but that is the law. Yes the Church can try and interfere but it risks losing its tax exempt status. EXACTLY WHAT THE FUCK WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE BECAUSE YOU BROUGHT IT UP.
Individuals can act or campaign as they please. 501c3 has nothing to do with the individual members of the church.
The fact you make imply that it does once again exposes your idiocy.
And regardless of you’re ignorance or misunderstanding of the subject, that law is there specifically for the protection of both church and state.
http://www.wkyt.com/polls?pollID=42699407
Agree – Our country is not based on religious beliefs – 83.3%
And in case SF you are too lazy to read through the first few paragraphs, I’ll make it easy for you. Click here for examples that did lose their tax exempt status.
As an alleged old feller, you must realize that just because you speak with authority doesn’t mean you are excused from providing reliable evidence to back up your assertions. Take your finger-wagging certitude and stuff it.
you’reyourOh how the uninformed tend to act so haughty. Arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand.
Hey SF, you know, the information that we use here against you god bots is really hard to find….but I’ll let you in on a little secret. You can usually find it hidden in these things called books, and if you’re really a technophile, instead of using the interwebs to spout your ignorant crap, you might start using it to actually learn.
Silver Fox is proof that with age does not come Wisdom and that you just can’t fix plain old stupid.
“Arnold Facepalmer”
Sweetwater IPA>nose>monitor
SF, I said you were the poster boy for banning. Your idiotic post did nothing to diminish you idiocy, but enhanced it greatly. The advice I gave you, STFU, still holds. The less you post, the less likely you will be plonked. The fact that it hasn’t gotten through your godbesoaked head speaks volumes about your lack of comprehension. Do yourself a favor and go away. A few months will be necessary for your level of stupidity to be forgotten by a good chunk of the people. I have a good memory, and Max Verkat couldn’t prove his imaginary god either.
Reverend Chimp
I apologize for making you waste such a fine brew.
I live in Canada. Anything, other than the North East U.S., I refer to as, JESUS LAND.
Well goody for you.
@151: Perhaps you’d like a cookie?
SF the deluded liar and moron vomited:
We have laws against prostitution and crime against nature. These are usually referred to as victimless crimes, so they would not ordinarily be expected to attract the attention of the minions of the law, but they do, because they violate religious tenets.
EPIC FAIL.
In the United States, laws against prostitution are a relatively modern development. It was Victorian era morality that brought them about. At the beginning of the 19th century, prostitutes were no big deal. That started changing around 1840, until they became pariahs by 1900. You’d know that if you ever read a fucking history book, you worthless dipshit.
Now I think everyone understands why I kept voting for this godbotting moron to be fed to the sharks. He isn’t just stupid–he lies, and his lies are stupid.
Argh. I thought I included this part, but didn’t:
Some of the most vocal opponents of prostitution in the beginning weren’t the religious, but femiminsts like Elizabeth Cady Stanton. They used religion to get support for their position. It was a tactical decision and it worked, because all you have to do is get preachers to tell the flock to bleat, and they do
Hey, Rev…before you indulge in another swig of Sweetwater, check out the name on this:
(from the projectfairplay.org linked by Alex above.)
Floyd Flake???
Big Dumb:
“That’s why when churches try and politic AGAINST OR FOR SPECIFIC CANDIDATES from the pulpit they can lose their 501c3 status.”
How about this: Silver Fox in the pulpit of his church: “No member of this congregation can in good conscience vote for a candidate who says he is going to repeal the FOCA Act, or who has a clear record of being pro-choice. This would be sinful and such a member should not present himself or herself for any sacramental rites until they have repented and done penance.”
In reference to the recent Presidential election, have I endorsed a specific candidate. As a Christian Pastor it is my solemn obligation to address those ISSUES. I can even speak about the corruption of a particular POLITICAL PARTY. Just don’t name the CANDIDATE.
Have you never heard of 501c3 before tonight?
Here, I’m done doing your homework for you.
There are a few important sections addressing your rantings above. I’ll hold judgment on if you can figure out which ones they are.
Tell me, Pastor Fox, how Jesus could die if He was God when God is, by definition, immortal?
My most charitable reading of Silver Fox is that he’s saying yes, that would be illegal, but the chances of actually getting caught are slim to none.
Shhh don’t bother him. He’s doing his homework. He’s already failing and if he falls behind me may never catch up.
That is stupid. Both parties always run xian candidates.
The majority of people who voted for Obama were xians, including about 1/3 of the evangelicals.
SF is so dim he doesn’t even realize that xians disagree among themselves quite a lot. They fought bloody wars with each other until the secular authorities took away their armies and heavy weapons. These days they just hate each other and call each other Fake Xians(tm).
I wonder if SF has finished his homework
Silver Fox. You’re late on turning in your homework. I’ll be gone today and tonight, please have it prepared for tomorrow.
No change in >24hrs. Now…
Offended – America is still a Christian nation – 10.8%
Agree – No one religion is more important – 5.2%
Agree – Our country is not based on religious beliefs – 83.3%
Don’t care – 0.7%
Total Responses – 6391
OK SF you fail. But I’ll give you the opportunity to make it up if you can tell me exactly all the places you were wrong.
FAIL
i totally disregard everything president obama says (as should you) because hes an idiot and apparently he needs to research our country’s history a little more and he will find that our nation was founed under God(duh)thats why its in the pledge of alligence! for crying out loud!
None of your business, if you did a little research, you would know that “Under God” was added in 1954. It was not part of the original pledge. And that was written in 1892.
Duh! fits you to a T.
“…And that was written in 1892.”
By a socialist.
Looks like “none of your business” is going to be in remedial American History and Social Sciences classes with Silver Fox.
Where oh where did that little fox go. Oh where oh where could he be.
I hope he’s studying up.
See dumbass?
Nothing after my post #159.
Read that and then tell my what parts address your idiocy in posts 128, 137, 157.
Silver Fox… yoooo hoooo
You ran off again after getting spanked and you still haven’t completed your assignment.