Isn’t it obvious? It’s all the atheist’s fault! Some goober named David Lebedoff has an article in the Strib that claims that the whole source of the problem is all those amoral, atheistic people who don’t believe in an afterlife.
If you only go around once, then the main thing is to have fun. If you start by admitting that from cradle to tomb it isn’t that long of a stay, then life is a cabaret, old chum, and so, by the way, is Wall Street. There is a bumper sticker favored by some of the recently rich that proclaims “he who dies with the most toys wins.” This is indeed the moral philosophy of those who believe that death is the final closing bell. Materialism, hedonism and Stairmasters are what people do until the clock stops ticking.
I had no idea that Wall Street was run by atheists, or that the government was run by atheists, or that Christians and Jews and Moslems were never, ever interested in material possessions (I just knew that whole Prosperity Gospel thing was a weird confabulation of my imagination).
But, speaking as a fairly strong atheist, I have to protest. The absence of an afterlife means that this life is all I’ve got, and I’d like to live it well — there are no do-overs or second chances. I don’t have the excuse that “God would never allow harm to come to the planet” or “Jesus will forgive my sins and let me live in paradise”. If I screw up now, that’s all there is. I also share normal concerns that even after I die, I want my kids (and grandkids, if such should happen, although I’m much too young for that yet) and friends to live good lives. Not believing in a magical afterlife doesn’t change that, and actually tends to make things like preparing for the future, being a good steward of my resources, educating future generations, etc., even more important.
Mr Lebedoff is a victim of a failure of comprehension. He doesn’t understand atheists at all, and he imagines in his simple-minded way that we’re all mindless hedonists rushing to burn out fast.
By the way, that phrase, “he who dies with the most toys wins”, makes no sense to most atheists. He who dies is dead, full stop. Toys don’t matter at that point.
What a blowhard.
comprehension fail. “he who dies with the most toys wins” is sarcasm. or was originally sarcasm, who knows if some rich idiots haven’t adopted it, also because of comprehension fail
Holy crap! I can’t believe that was an actual column and not a letter-to-the-editor.
Exactly. We love our children and therefore cannot wait for some sky daddy to make things all better at some nebulous point in the future. If we want a better life for our children, then WE have to make it so in the here and now and plan for it in the future.
What a maroon.
OMFG, seriously?! what universe does this fucker live in?!
Obviously, the next thing for Mr Lebedoff to do is to commit suicide immediately so he can go on to his after-life rewards.
He should also convince all the fundies to do it too, so we no longer have to listen to their whining and their delusions.
Don’t let the door hit you on the ass on the way out, Mr Lebedoff!
I am a hedonist.
I take extreme pleasure in reading philosophy, watching cinema, contemplating the universe. I am also a writer, I write about nihilism and the moral catastrophes of people who have absolute certainty in their minds.
I also take extreme pleasure in studying architecture, which I intend to use as a means to better the world. 50% of all CO2 emissions are the result of the construction industry and home usage. By making better and more sustainable buildings I provide for a better future, a better world for the just and the unjust alike, for the believers and the non-believers.
I am also aware that this is my one and only life and this is the the real thing that makes me love humanity so much, even though it all too often deserves contempt.
“Man must deny God defiantly in order to pour upon humanity all his loving solicitude”
~ Albert Camus
…Damn, I like collecting toys. You should see my video game figurine collection. And my friend? He has something like 912 Transformers figurines. I’m not kidding. He’s keeping the count.
Bloody useless? ABSOLUTELY. Materialism at its best? TOTALLY. Proud of it? Fuck yea I am.
I work to get money so I can live AND give myself a few freebies. And I don’t feel guilty about it. I’m not thinking I’ll have my fun in the magical land of afterlife. I’m just gonna get my fun RIGHT NOW!
I am seriously proud of all the things atheists are responsible for – and we’re so influential too!
PZ, you’re absolutely correct. It is religious folks who believe this life is less important than the next, who believe they have a second chance…many, in fact, who will tell you that this life really doesn’t matter much at all, as it is but a prelude to the real deal.
Atheists like us, however, have exactly one chance.
How about a golf analogy. Imagine you have to sink a 3-foot put, and if you miss, Dick Cheney will shoot you in the face with a shotgun and you die. You’ll put pretty carefully, no doubt (much to Cheney’s chagrin). But if you get two tries, you’ll still be nervous on your first put, but not nearly as nervous.
The Madoff fiasco proves that, doesn’t it?
Oh shit, it’s the rabbi preferring the greedy bastard of his tribe (and religion, I believe, if a more liberal version) because of some (most likely) insincere lip service to the pieties of religion.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
All those bank directors, the Cheney and bush family, boards of directors of the big companies.
Those are the guys that filled their pockets over the backs of everybody.
What religion do they have?
Take a guess.. i dare you.
Jadehawk @#2, you sure about that? I remember the mid-eighties pretty well when that slogan was popular. Lots of jocks and similar ilk with that decorating their bumpers, no whiff of sarcasm to be found. And of course it pre-dated our hyper-aware Era of Irony so I doubt it originated as some joke on the above crowd either.
Considering his knowledge of Orwell, I really want to see Hitchens tear that guy a new one.
Someone actually paid Mr. Lebedoff real money for this EPIC FAIL? Man, I’m in the wrong line of business.
I blame theists.
After all if the Magical Sky Fairie can create the Universe in 6 days and a Man out of dirt, then HE can make more oil, coal and other things so HIS people never need to go without.
Unless they’re lazy and refuse to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
In my experience, one of the few differences between atheists and what the “goober named David Lebedoff” assumes are model christians – aside from belief and disbelief – is that those christians feel ever so smug about their own materialism, hedonism and Stairmasters. That and their glaring propensity to pass judgment on all who don’t believe as they believe.
Having had the chance to live in the rarefied strata of the “He Who Has the Most Toys Wins” crowd, I’d like to clarify where that comes from. Hot young kid, hardly out of school, making more money than one knows how to spend. Money doesn’t seem to really matter. Most of those who pass through the “He WHo Has the Most Toys Wins” phase, graduate to the “Money is How you Keep Score” phase, which has a far more interesting meaning. What’s the score we’re keeping? Who can make the most meaningful contribution to mankind, of course. The translation of “Money is How you Keep Score”: it’s not about the money, it’s about the difference you’ve made.
From Lebedoff:
Well, that may or may not be. It’s often recognized that lack of ethics, at least, is disastrous for the practice of capitalism.
But Orwell was the one whose preachers in Animal Farm were crows, telling pious lies to the poor suffering animals. To be sure, the “liberators” were seen as so similar to the previous oppressors that the people wanted their lying crows back, but that was seen as one of the curses of the pigs’ oppression of the other animals.
The idea that Orwell had anything but contempt for religion, implied in the column, is just the kind of dishonesty that one might suspect could cause the downfall of capitalism. IOW, the lack of morality of this bozo is part and parcel of what he’s condemning.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
Cue Bowie:
T-T-T-T-Tarded
(Turn and face the tard)
T-T-Tarded
Don’t want to be teh stupid man
T-T-T-T-Tarded
(Turn and face the tard)
T-T-Tarded
Just gonna have to be teh smarter man
Tards may hate me
But I can’t change tards
I think he mistook Satanists for atheists. Though I don’t think even all of them are total hedonists.
Given, I imagine he doesn’t understand that Satanists aren’t Satan-worshipers.
matt, I always knew it as a social commentary ON the 70’s and 80’s by it’s fringe cultures, but I don’t doubt that even if it started that way it was probably adopted by those it was meant to mock. the 80’s weren’t the most self-reflective period in human history
Jesus kebab, I love these n00bs. The way the come out with these chestnuts as if nobody’d ever thought of them before. I presume he wrote this in crayons and got his mummy to post if for him.
Nothing says “fun” like a Stairmaster.
“We are in this sorry state because those managing our production and our wealth are in many cases free from moral constraint,” he says, but dismisses the idea of legal restraints.
Does it strike anyone as strange that in US politics the belief that only fear of punishment keeps us all from lying and stealing goes right alongside the desire for an unregulated market?
Michelle R.
I work to get money so I can live AND give myself a few freebies.
If you need money, it ain’t a “freebie”.
Just teasing, I know what you mean.
I fear that Lebedoff is making the common mistake of mixing nihilists with atheists. It goes well in one way but very foul in the other direction ;-) All nihilists may be atheists, but not all atheists are nihilists. Fortunately ;-)
Moral and decency has in my eyes more to do with absolute pragmatic and rational behaviour when navigating in a society build on close co-habitation of humans – there may be some superficial cultural differences but at the core most benevolent relations are based on empathising with others and respecting differences.
The fact that many religions and beliefs has incorporated this is not the same as saying they have invented it (nor that they have embraced the concept of empathy!!!). Again just because religions often claim to have a concept of moral and decency doesn’t mean that you can’t have moral and decency without a religious belief. On the contrary – moral and decency is the logical product of rational behavior as I see it.
And a moral concept is in my eyes nullified when dogmatized without empathy and most often transforms to become a standard of judgement to distinguish between “us & them” which is usually the case with religious moral concepts – and I guess – why they tend to become malevolent instead …
Sorry for the long rant!
Søren
Now, I don’t pretend that I understand talk of securities and the like any better than I understand, say, the Oshiwambo language, but there are few very interesting ideas in this column.
For example, quoting from page two of the article
That is, we didn’t have this problem until recently because, up until we heathens came along, we knew that obeying the law was not, actually, the bare minimum we had to do. Of course, this conveniently glosses over various Republican deregulatory hijinks that repealed (or stifled the modernization of) existing regulatory frameworks.
Mr. Ledeboff also goes on to claim that “belief in life after death helped keep us from being completely selfish and shortsighted.” This seems possible, but I should like to hear more from Mr. Ledeboff about all the atheists who engaged in too much market speculation back in 1929.
However, I think the most important thing to point out here is his contention that associated with atheism is a live-for-today, spend-now mindset. It does not need to be pointed out that we are in a very serious recession. A major problem in recessions, and what prevents recovery, is reluctance to spend money; it’s known as the paradox of thrift. Consumer fears are a major obstacle to our recovery and, conceding to Mr. Lebedoff that we atheists are all hedonists who live only for today, it seems clear to me that we will not get money flowing and commerce moving again until vast swathes of the nation de-convert. Perhaps we can ask him, or the Star Tribune generally, to help our economy by running a column next week arguing against the existence of God.
After a few searches, it appears that David Lebedoff is a 60’s liberal gone over to the conservative side. Apparently he lost his ability to think when switching sides. (Or this is why he switched sides.)
He wrote a book called “The Uncivil War, How a New Elite Is Destroying Our Democracy” in which he proclaims that an elite minority (elite: code word for LIBERAL) is taking over the country.
I also found another David Lebedoff (who lives in Wayata and is 28 years old). Don’t know if there is a relationship, but Lebedoff the younger graduated from the University of Minnesota, Morris in 2004! Maybe PZ taught this nincompoop’s son! (Probably not, as he was a history major.)
What it appears to come down to for me is that the religiotards can’t figure out whether we’re supposed to be liberal free-love hippies in communes, or radical communist Soviet spies, or capitalist pigs consuming with both hands and a wide-open mouth.
What they really hate us for is that we have something they don’t. Freedom of thought. They confuse it with freedom of action, and misunderstand that to boot.
He’s right, just last week I put up a statue with the inscription
“Look upon my works ye mighty, and despair”
Heaven is abandonment from this world, not valuing this one.
i can’t believe i apostrophized a possessive “its” *blush*
I’ve been really, really, really wanting you to talk about this today:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=102647672
That’s so cool. That’s one toy I’d collect.
I’ve been telling my wife, I have a Campagnolo bike and a Shimano bike, and in order to complete my collection, I need a SRAM bike. You know, for evaluation purposes. So I can see which one I like best. Right now, I like both Campy and Shimano, but I don’t know which is best… And I really need to.
By the way, that sticker was popular when I was in college… 25+ years ago. I think I had one. I was Catholic at the time. Glad I got over that fogstorm.
Yeah, can you imagine the amount of concentration it must have taken to write “new” instead of “liberal”? And of course “democracy” is a code word for “when people vote the same way that I do”.
David Horowitz Lite?
I like how the columnist, the commenter alkaline, and every other non-atheist in the world thinks they know more about atheism than I do. They tell me what I think, what I believe and why my life is a failure. They must have access to some information about atheism that I’ve never seen.
Wait a minute! That’s why I never got the secret _Atheist’s_Manual_! Somebody sent it off to the damn Christians! I’m muddling through life, and those bastards are reading my instruction manual and telling me what I should be doing.
No wonder the economy is a mess. Us evil ones don’t know how to get enough money into the hands of Satan. It all winds up in the churches, and just stagnates.
Bastards.
Wow, I went back to the MySpace.com page for the younger David Lebedoff and guess what: He identifies as an athiest!
Bwahahahahaha!
So what’s he got against stairmaster? Or I guess if God wanted you fit he’d keep you fit despite lounging around on your bum all day :P
stop thinking so much, you’re ruining it!!!
actually, that’s just because the U.S. has only 2 parties, the one with the most influence in the last 30 years being the one made up of part “capitalist pig” and part religiotard. and both parts pretend that the faults of the other part are actually “liberal” faults. somehow.
I do not quite understand what is so bad about Stairmasters – did David Lebedoff try using one once and decided that he only got more unfit by using them?
Oh come on now…
Did anyone else read this entire article? I think everyone here is being a little too hard on it, it does raise some interesting ideas. Replacing religious “morals” with hedonist morals probably helped put us in this mess. How did those in power develop these hedonist morals? My best guess is one of these two things:
A) They think of themselves as a good christians, and since the bible does not expressly say anything about predatory lending as being bad they are able to convince themselves that they are doing nothing that is morally objectionable.(Despite the fact that they are clearly hosing down people)
B) They became an atheist most likely due to jumping on a bandwagon. They did not reach the conclusion themselves and did not spend enough time questioning themselves. As a result they became an atheist with hedonist morals instead of an atheist with humanist morals.
I think it is fair to say that not all atheists are humanists. If all of the shmucks on wall-street had become humanists, we probably would not have a problem. However the popularity of atheism enticed some people who were not mentally adept enough to get the big picture(No god, one shot at life, so don’t be an asshole). The interesting(and fucking scary) thing to think about is that there are actually people whose only reason for being moral is due to a fear of god.
Can you imagine taking a group of flaming crazy fundamentalists and removing the fear of god from them? They have never sought another form of morality or actually questioned what is moral. Most of them have no actual idea of what compassion is other than a buzzword from Jesus. Their “morality” has always just been crammed down their throats. I think you would end up with a whole bowl full of crazy.
Of course this is all anecdotal from my imagination and gut reaction soooo… FROSTEDBUTTS!
Ain’t nothing that can fuck up a reasonable human brain like religion. The more crazy the religion, the better.
The people who use
religionfear to control the public know this all too well. The crazier the public, the easier it is for them to believe anything, and get the results you want.They talk about god’s love in one breath, and spew fear, hatred, and mistrust with the next. Divide and conquer. The whole point of religion is to break reason, and to control. It always was, and it always will be… and all of these “holy” people know this.
If anything is evil in this world, religion is it. They’ve made you buy into their bullshit, you give them money, and then agree with their decisions, no matter how retarded. If the panic and hysteria of 9-11 didn’t show the world what evil people ( ie. the Bushies.. not the fanatics, the fanatics are following what they’ve been taught by religion) can do to take advantage of group think.
It was, it is, and it will always be.
“If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. ‘Cause that’s all there is. What we do, now, today…. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.”
Epiphany, Angel the Series.
Yup. That pretty much sums it up for me. Pop culture FTW.
In total, Lebedoff is a victim of brain rot by religion. When he dies he loses everything, toys, brains, and his imaginary god. Moron.
Once again, it says something about the theists that, for them, if it wasn’t for fear of what their magical daddy would do to them for being naughty, then all bets would be off and they’d deliberately do their worst, whether it’s to themselves or to each other. They’re like 4-year-olds who would eat ice cream for dinner if only they had their way.
There’s nothing quite religion for keeping people as perpetual children in their own lives.
I was at a Minnesota Atheist book club meeting in Little Canada, Minnesota, yesterday afternoon (the book was “The Atheist’s Way,” which most people didn’t care for but a few people, includng me, really liked) and no fewer than three book club members brought that commentary in. We took it apart. It is wrong in every way it’s possible to be wrong. For one very simple thing, geez, look at the world. The most secular nations on earth are NOT known for their wild hedonism. Who thinks “Mardi Gras” when they think “Norway”? No one, that’s who.
We concluded, we literate atheist types, that it’s a good thing when garbage like that gets into the press. It’s important to know the precise brand of crazy we’re opposing.
Actually the quote should have been: “He who dies with the most toys – still dies”.
I am a off and on reader of this forum and usually like to read “you guys” comments.
I do have a question to all of you, and PZ Myers, Why does not anyone point out to these people that the most secular nations are the best?
The most advanced, safest and “good” people are the MOST secular. This is statistics. The complete opposite is of religious ones, the more religious, the more Hateful violent and dangerous country you get.
Scandinavian nations are an example of wonderful nations, the U.S, Iraq, Afghanistan etc is a perfect example of horrible nations where hatred and ignorance is celebrated.
Canada is a good example of what United States could be. Why dont anyone point this out to the cretins writing this blogs and articles that PZ quotes? Dont they know?`I know americans are ignorant, but comeone, We created Internet for you guys, is reality censured in United States? You cant check internet or foreign (none U.S based sites) for facts?
Is CNN and FOX americans “truth”? The channels saying that the U.S is the “best country in the world”…… Do they really believe this?
Why does no one Point out the TRUTH to them? Give them the WORLD STATISTICS showing they are wrong? Guys? PZ? Anyone?….
Kent?
Gee, the way he puts it sounds like the atheists are just having tons of fun and the believers are suffering while waiting for death. Every atheist I know lives life carefully because we only have one shot. Like raising kids. You get one chance, you screw it up there is no do-over. Believers are the ones that think they can lie, steal, kill, cheat and still get a reprieve because some demi-god dude in the Middle East died for them. So they can fuck up their whole lives and then in their last breath get a whole new chance! What a deal! My birth father is one of those guys. Every few years he gets broke, wanders into a church, cries all over the pews and they feel sorry for him. They give him money, he gets a new wife (the grateful type) then he is back on his merry way. Once the wife leaves, the funds dry up and he cant afford his whiskey and pot he finds a new church. He milked the Catholic church in his hometown three times! They loved the drama of the Prodigal Son’s return. They still give that grifter money!
Hang on- I thought Atheist = Liberal = Socialist
Obama’s attempts to clean up the mess is Socialist.
He is an anathema to the Free Market.
It was the Free Market that got us into this mess- You don’t need regulation because Capitalism will ensure the failures go to the wall (unless failing would mean collapsing the banking system, when it is your right to be given lots of that Gubmint money to bail you out).
YET Jesus makes overtly anti-rich statements.
Any chance of the Religeous Right coming up with something approaching coherency?
I am a off and on reader of this forum and usually like to read “you guys” comments.
I do have a question to all of you, and PZ Myers, Why does not anyone point out to these people that the most secular nations are the best?
The most advanced, safest and “good” people are the MOST secular. This is statistics. The complete opposite is of religious ones, the more religious, the more Hateful violent and dangerous country you get.
Scandinavian nations are an example of wonderful nations, the U.S, Iraq, Afghanistan etc is a perfect example of horrible nations where hatred and ignorance is celebrated.
Canada is a good example of what United States could be. Why dont anyone point this out to the cretins writing this blogs and articles that PZ quotes? Dont they know?`I know americans are ignorant, but comeone, We created Internet for you guys, is reality censured in United States? You cant check internet or foreign (none U.S based sites) for facts?
Is CNN and FOX americans “truth”? The channels saying that the U.S is the “best country in the world”…… Do they really believe this?
Why does no one Point out the TRUTH to them? Give them the WORLD STATISTICS showing they are wrong? Guys? PZ? Anyone?….
Kent?
Hang on, he can’t come up with anything significantly more excessive and gratuitous than a piece of gym equipment?
@#40 Tyler Hutchison
“Did anyone else read this entire article? I think everyone here is being a little too hard on it, it does raise some interesting ideas. Replacing religious ‘morals’ with hedonist morals probably helped put us in this mess. How did those in power develop these hedonist morals?”
… How do you know that Wall Street is run by atheists in the first place?
That “he who dies with the most toys wins” is such a waste… I mean, if you still HAVE the toys when you win, they you obviously didn’t wear them out when you were alive. WHAT A WASTE!
It should be “he who dies having completely exhausted/destroyed by use/worn out his toys wins”.
;-P
(but seriously – I agree with PZ)
it is, every day. When your “truth” begins with talking snakes, reality doesn’t hold sway.
@#50 MeMeMe
“Why does no one Point out the TRUTH to them? Give them the WORLD STATISTICS showing they are wrong? Guys? PZ? Anyone?….”
There was a blog post on Pharyngula earlier about how the newspaper Christianity Today reacted to a book that pointed out how the Scandinavian countries are better economically & cetera. They said that while they had good stuff, that they had lost their “soul.”
See:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/02/beer_or_souls.php
shouldn’t you be doing something scientific?
Hang on, he can’t come up with anything significantly more excessive and gratuitous than a piece of gym equipment?
@#52 http://www.10ch.org
I have absolutely no idea who is running wall-street. But for the sake of playing Devil’s advocate I was giving David the benefit of the doubt. Note that I did not say atheists I said people with hedonist morals. David on the other hand makes a broad swoop and claims it is due to atheism, clearly he is an idiot and is probably trying to blame atheism for the fall of the economy. But I felt that the article did spark an interesting point regardless of if he intended it or not: What happens when the FOG (fear of god) is lifted from the uneducated huddled masses?
Also
There are a lot of tired and bad ideas in that article: people with imaginary friends are moral, people in previous generations were better-behaved, the purpose of life is either to seek reward in death or to have fun at all costs, selfishness can be tempered by selfishness, and whatever else was in there.
The major problem that David Lebedoff faces, though, is that nothing about the idea of an afterlife necessitates good works, so even among the audience he seeks to appeal to he can’t win: all sorts of magical thinkers believe they will be rewarded with an eternal paradise for ruthlessly exploiting the stupidity of others to maximize their material gain. So at best they will shake their fists at greed and evil secularists, and then go back to screwing everyone over in exchange for immediate gratification.
@#50, TH:
“A) They think of themselves as a good christians, and since the bible does not expressly say anything about predatory lending as being bad they are able to convince themselves that they are doing nothing that is morally objectionable.(Despite the fact that they are clearly hosing down people)”
Then obviously using a “whatever isn’t forbidden is permitted” filter in your interpretation of the Bible is a flawed approach for developing your moral framework. In fact, if it leads to exploiting already disadvantaged sections of society and increasing their relative poverty, you might say that this framework has led these nameless Wall Street sharks to evil. At least, I think that is what any atheist with non-religious morals might say, which is ironic in the circumstances.
So when do I get all the sex, drugs, and rock & roll?
I think I sorta did point out that secular nations are more “moral” in the sense that the op-ed means the term.
I was glad to see the “Angel” quote. First thing that I thought, of, too. Another good take on the idea is from atheist author Phil Pullman. It’s too long to quote in any way that would do it justice, so here’s a link:
http://www.hbook.com/magazine/articles/2001/nov01_pullman.asp
I suspect Mr Lebedoff bases his opinions about atheists
on what he would be like without external restraint by
an imagined god and I am really happy that he has his
beliefs. Otherwise we might have a crazed ax murderer
here in Minneapolis.
As atheists, we look at deeds, not prayers, and the distinction between the deeds of Madoff and Sullenberger are so stark that Rabbi Shafran’s perspective seems incomprehensible.
Religion poisons everything. It prioritizes a pious attitude above what you actually do:
I think he is weaseling around the topic even more than that. The only time in the article that he even uses the word ‘atheist’ is when referencing Orwell. According to him, all the problems are caused by people who don’t believe in heaven or hell. He also doesn’t specifically mention Christians or even religion. He just states that only people who believe in heaven (for reward) and hell (for punishment) will behave, because they fear what will happen when they die.
@#60 Thrift
I totally agree. But I fear this is how many religious people create their own moral frameworks. The bible is so contradictory about what is morally right and wrong. One minute it is telling you to stone everyone who is wearing polyester the next minute it is telling you to love and forgive everyone. So then people decide to just pick and choose and if something is not expressly forbidden, then you may as well do it. :(
If only some brilliant critical thinker had gone through the bible and removed all of the nonsense. That way people could have a moral framework that is easy to understand
Not a bit. Why do you ask?
After all, the closer they get to an unregulated market, the more lying and stealing they do.
Hey, who says atheists have no belief in an “afterlife”? Maybe not in the ordinary sense of the word.
I’m an atheist, but what I know about time as a dimension leads me to think of our experience of time as a phenomenom of entropy (it’s a chaos theory thing).
The “you” of your birth is still as real as the “you” of now, and the “you” you will be at your death. That you won’t experience “you” after your death in the common timeline doesn’t preclude your existence in the 4 dimensional universe. Note that this is not a grand scale “Groundhog Day” movie though.
Life and time is just the experience of “you” passing through the fourth dimension. You are a big n dimensional slug, The 4 principal dimensions look like one long “you”, with baby “you” at one end, and dead “you” at the other. You may prefer a loaf of bread to a slug, especially if you’re vegetarian :)
The goober lobby is not gonna be happy with this insinuation.
And what, supposedly, motivates the religious wingnuts not to screw everything up? They believe that the world is going to end anyway in the “end times” so why would they do anything to preserve what god is just going to annihilate anyway?
Plus, they can “sin” (totally fuck things up and screw over people) all they want and just “really mean it” when they repent before they die.
So to say that being religious and/or believing in god is going to somehow make some positive difference in this world is a load of crap.
Perhaps this has some relevance here. Either way, I want to share it. A few weeks ago as I was on the way to work, a fancy new sports sedan quickly zipped up on my tail. I suppose I wasn’t moving fast enough, so the driver passed me at the first opportunity. The woman driving this shiny new Jaguar was chatting away on her cell phone, all coiffed and manicured. Every visible part of her was adorned with jewelry – gaudy rings, huge earrings, gold watch, etc. Of course it all made sense when I saw her tag – CLERGY. Couldn’t help but laugh to myself. Ahhh the piety and self-sacrifice of an austere life…
SantaCruzOM, what’s the story with your nym?
I have a friend whose wife ran up a credit card debt of more than $20,000 because she believed the rapture was imminent and would not have to repay.
What’s truly nihilistic is the freakazoid abdication of personal responsibility.
“God told me to do it” reached its catastrophic apogee in George W. Bush, who actually admitted believing that because he believed in “god” that “god” would never let him do anything wrong and therefore everything he did was what “god” wanted.
That, alone, was enough to justify amending the Constitution to bar freakazoids from public office at least, and preferably from citizenship at all.
Here in Kentucky I see it every day, the xian “morality” that justifies every kind of hateful, vicious, abusive behavior. How dare you criticize me for beating my gay teenager half to death? God told me to do it!
It is the epitome of selfish, anti-social irresponsibility, and it is unique to the freakazoids.
Why does hedonism get such a bad rap? Hedonism simply means that what you value morally is pleasure and the absence of pain. Utilitarianism is a hedonistic theory: it states that the right moral decision is the one which maximizes the pleasure and minimizes the pain for the most people possible. I frankly can’t see what could be more important, ethically, than that. Obviously some religious folks disagree with me, or else the Pope wouldn’t be trying to give millions of people AIDS to spare their immortal souls, but I reject the idea that calling someone a hedonist is an automatic insult.
#72 – It’s the make and model of my guitar.
And as a recovered born-again, I can assure you that the promise of life after death is the biggest racket ever.
Get this: once you’re “saved,” you’re saved FOREVER. No matter what horrific crimes you may commit after you are saved, your heavenly seat next to the Big Guy is guaranteed. You don’t even have to find a priest to give you the last rites before you die – the fix is in the moment you let Jayzus into your life.
And in case anyone hasn’t mentioned it yet, the prisons are overwhelmingly populated with deeply sincere christians.
Conservatives really need to make up their mind and point to one group of liberals who are responsible for this economic crisis.
First it was the “liberal” Democrats in congress who magically ran the economy into the ground through legislation they didn’t pass while they weren’t in control of congress.
Then it was the “Obama recession” [thanks Rush] despite the fact that it began a year before he was elected, let alone entered office.
Then it was “inner city homeowners” [code for blacks] who, through Fannie, Freddie, and ACORN managed to collapse the housing market despite the fact that every single minority homeowner would have to have been foreclosed for this to even be a possibility and WSJ reported in 2006 that over 60% of the sub-prime mortgages were being issued to investment buyers who qualified for standard mortgages.
Now it is immoral atheists. This despite the fact that atheists make up perhaps 5% of the total population with non-religious folks bumping the number up to 20%. On the other hand, atheists and non-religious people make up less than 1% of the people in prison. Obvious proof that they’re the real leaders of the criminal element. [rolls eyes]
Personally I’m willing to give him this one, Atheists can be responsible for 20% of the economic collapse, as long as he agrees that Christians are responsible for the remaining 80%.
I always thought the all purpose demonic cause was hippies smoking marijuana. Oh wait, that was the recessions in the 70’s and 80’s.
God will handle it in his customary fashion. The grandchildren and pets of atheists will all die in plane crashes into graveyards. That will perk the old economy right up.
SantaCruzOM: ah, I see. Beautiful axe.
Just asked because there’s a regular commenter here called SC, and since she won the local commenter’s award she’s been posting as SC,OM.
So, kind of similar. Carry on!
Actually, it is obvious that the economic collapse is a christofascist product. The Theothuglicans controlled the country for 8 years and nearly destroyed it. The pointless war in Iraq didn’t help either. While costing close to a trillion bucks, all we got out of it was piles of bodies, mostly Iraqi, some American.
Another of an infinite series of examples of xian mental and moral bankruptcy.
Bushco was in power for 8 years. The economy started collapsing in mid summer 2007. Obama took power in January 2009 and has been president for 3 months. And the severe recession is all his fault.
The reality: Obama was elected as part of the clean up squad.
It’s all the atheist’s fault!
The Apostrophe Police will be looking for one (1) atheist, then.
Hrmm, as Rorschach said. If you were looking for the atheist, in America, who would you start with?
No wonder there’s a position opening up at UM Morris.
raven @ # 79: I always thought the all purpose demonic cause was hippies smoking marijuana.
The Problem has mutated since then, now being attributed to Teenage Immigrant Welfare Mothers on Drugs.
Bushco was in power for 8 years. The economy started collapsing in mid summer 2007. Obama took power in January 2009 and has been president for 3 months. And the severe recession is all his fault.
Don’t you get it? It’s never their fault. That’s really what they think. It was Clinton’s fault when the WTC was bombed about a month after he took office, but it wasn’t Dubya’s fault when it was demolished 9 months into his term. That was Clinton’s fault, too. Just ask ’em.
In their demented little minds Democrats can do no right and Republicans can do no wrong. Clinton could have cured cancer by himself, and he would have been called a liar. Reagan could have farted and they would have lined up at his asshole to see who could get the most stink on them.
Bush could tell lie after lie and say increasingly stupid shit with each passing day, but our late-night comedians were still telling Clinton sex jokes long after it was funny or even relevant. We had a fucking inbred Texas-raised imbecile licking lint off the Oval Office carpet, potentially a comedy gold mine, and Leno had a regular Clinton impersonator to be the butt of his lame-jokes as late as 2006 or so.
Any mistake that Obama makes will be blown way out of proportion by these tools. I count on it.
“I don’t want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying.” — Woody Allen
It has already happened. In his time King Tut had the most toys with him. For 3000 years and now they are scattered all over. He who dies with the most debt, wins. Die owing millions and you have taken it with you. Bernie Maddof will win this one.
Am I the only one who noticed that he compared working out with hedonism and materialism?
Guess I don’t have to work out tonight…because that’s what dirty yuppie hedonists do. Us moral Jesus lovin’ folk who are paying for your sins with our jawbs. We likes some PARKAY with our lard, thanks! I’m going to go exercise my finger on the clicker.
Also, king tut was a fairly minor king. He did have the bonus of living during Egypt’s equivalent of the rococo period, but we can assume that more important kings with bigger empires, like Rameses II and Thutmose III definitely had more bling in the end. That king tut…he was barely upper middle class.
Argument from final consequences! Saying Atheism is false because atheists can do bad things without fear of hell is like saying fire could be used to burn down a house, therefore fire must not exist.
Jadehawk @#2, you sure about that? I remember the mid-eighties pretty well when that slogan was popular.
I have to agree with Matt here about the slogan he who dies with the most toys wins.
It was a popular saying in the mid-80s, and most people thought it represented something good. One of the few times I heard it used properly at all anywhere in the culture was in the movie Falcon and the Snowman, where Sean Penn’s character says it to justify his criminal behavior. It’s clearly used in that context to represent the wrong attitude to have in life.
I think the popularity of the phrase does come from that movie, since it came out in 1985, and the line was used in trailers. A lot of people would have seen a trailer, thought the phrase was “cool” during the money-grubbing 80s, and not gotten the context at all. The people who spouted that kind of crap un-ironically weren’t the type to watch a movie that didn’t have a lot of tits and car chases in it.
Letter I sent to the editor:
DAVID LEBEDOFF attributes the economic crisis to rising levels of atheism, citing the sarcastic mottos “He who dies with the most toys wins” and “Greed is good” (While forgetting that the figure who made that argument was in fact, the villain of that story) which were mainly popular during the 1980’s.
Now, the factual issue here is that there is precisely 1 agnostic in the US’ congress. Due to America’s political beliefs regarding religion it is widely acknowledged as being almost impossible for an atheist to gain high political office, in fact President Obama’s mother’s atheism was considered a negative.
GHW Bush, is famously said to have claimed that atheists are neither citizens nor patriots, and to have gone on to win the US presidency. Ronald Reagan was the guy who originally went after the religious right as his constituency. Bill Clinton, though not a perfect Christian, was still a Christian, and GW Bush once claimed that God told him to invade Iraq. The current president has been noted for having proclaimed his religion repeatedly during his campaign.
Texas was marked by a Republican accusing a Democrat of being an atheist because she attended a meeting by an atheist organisation which was raising money for her campaign, and the Democrat responded not by defending atheists as citizens, but by proclaiming her Christianity. The implacation being, that if you are an atheist, you aren’t going to be represented by either major political party.
So what this column amounts to is blaming atheists for a crisis which they were in no position to do anything about. It is blaming atheists for policies in a country where they essentially had no political power, the nearest we come to political power is that they can use the law as it stands written by members of various religious demonitations, to defend their basic rights.
While there are powerful atheist figures in business like Bill Gates, one could equally claim that Bernard Madoff, former chairman of the American Jewish Congress, was in fact Jewish. It is no fairer a reflection on atheists, than it is on Jews to proclaim that because some atheists are rich, they are responsible for this crisis.
Indeed, the article appears to be attempting to capitalise on America’s unease with the faithless in much the same way that editorials during Hitler’s rise to power capitalised on the Germans’ unease with Judaism, and this is unfortunate.
To seek a convenient scapegoat in such a crisis, in which people are desperate and afraid, losing their jobs and their homes, where the banking system is tottering and the automotive industry is in crisis, to try to single out an “acceptable target” minority to demonise over this, that speaks no of honest analysis, but border-line hatemongering.
I agree with the sentiment, Taleisan. I realize you’re on our side, but seriously, someone has to tell you before you hurt yourself.
GODWIN.
You can express yourself very eloquently and powerfully without bringing hitler into it. :)
“If you only go around once, then the main thing is to have fun.”
WTF? I don’t remember Christians, or either of the other desert dogmas, subscribing to the concept of reincarnation. Not only that, but regardless of what they do, they think they know that they have their heaven waiting for them. In short, they are FAR more likely to try to screw people over in this world, because hey, it is not like they are going to stick around on this planet forever.
“What it appears to come down to for me is that the religiotards can’t figure out whether we’re supposed to be liberal free-love hippies in communes, or radical communist Soviet spies, or capitalist pigs consuming with both hands and a wide-open mouth.”
I’d say it’s more a case of conveniently ladling society’s colective ills on us godless scum – when it’s someone else’s fault (especially someone as allegedly raving, uncivilised and uncivilisable as an atheist), why go to the effort of fixing things?
The Westboro Baptist Asylum would disagree – it’s all those homosexuals to blame. If you talk to the not-so-accustomed-to-thinking guys who are losing their jobs at the moment, they’ll blame the Chinese, Mexicans, and maybe even the neighbor’s dog. I say there’s nothing like good old-fashioned greed to really screw up your day – that’s one thing even the bible gets right!
he who dies with the most toys wins
I was under the impression that this was the philosophy of the Ancient Egyptians who believed you could keep all your shit in the afterlife as long as you were entombed with it. They sure as hell weren’t godless heathens.
Ugh. I just saw a show on TV in which company directors plead about how they and company CEOs really deserve all that money. Disgusting. It’s like watching a creationist talk about “teaching controversy in science”. What’s scary is that there are a lot of stupid people who actually fall for the nonsense that the directors spout. Fortunately there are also intelligent people who argue quite well that those people aren’t worth gazillions. No one wants to take my proof seriously though: whack those people with a bus and if the company goes under then you may have made a mistake, but in the vast majority of cases you’ll see the company still runs just as well as with the bozo in charge.
#44
I had icecream for dinner today. The way I see it, there have to be some advantages to being grown up.
Speaking of toys, I want a working copy of the Antikythera Mechanism before I die. Can anybody here make that happen? I reckon there could be a lucrative market for replicas.
I really miss the days of economic prosperity in the Middle Ages when there were no atheists.
Actually, I don’t think anyone has yet asked the obvious question – The one with the most toys wins… what, exactly?
Put like that, it’s as ridiculous as claiming “First post” – it’s a null achievement and only makes the person making the claim look childish.
I think it should be changed to “The one with the most friends, admirers and well-wishers wins”. I want genuine mourners at my funeral, not gold diggers.
Ladies and gentlemen, today’s Philosophy Quote of the Day
Proof enough that those who deny a creator god are obsessed with possessions. I mean he’s saying this as a good thing right? Just like that Karl Marx and his fetishizing of commodities.
Try fiddling with petrocarpus Indicus and let me know what you get , is it a god compound or just benzoin chain in it?
Woo I gave you a lead,
The StarTribune has been a bible-thumping godbotting rag for years. I quit giving them money when they hired Katherine Kersten to provide “balanced” (read: conservative nutbag) editorials. It is a newspaper dedicated to stupidity and turning the national discourse to the right. You wouldn’t believe how many stupid letters they print bitching about how “left-wing” their coverage is, when it’s obvious they are toeing the line for big-bank capitalism and conspicuous consumption.
The StarTribune can disappear none too soon for my tastes. Then maybe we’ll get something that could be called a NEWSpaper in this city.
And don’t forget they’re the ones who trumpet the “new ballpark” mantra over and over. We had barely built the Metrodome (thanks to their propaganda) when they decided we needed an outdoor baseball park. Walton would have loved that: tax the citizens to built a playground for a bunch of rich sociopaths, yeah that’s what government’s for!
I really hate the StarTribune.
Since I don’t feel like registering there, I’ll comment here. Assuming he’s right for argument’s sake, and people used to be more ethical when they were more likely to believe in an afterlife, then what incentive was there to try at all beyond that? Maybe that’s why they all lived in filth and material progress had to wait until secularism.
Sounds strangely like my local paper.
Well, that “stop worrying and enjoy your life” part on the Atheist Bus is not exactly helping to remove the hedonistic prejudice.
Roberto Aguirre, yeah enjoying one’s life could only possibly mean the sort of shallow, acquisitive hedonism of “he who dies with the most toys wins.”
/snark
yeah enjoying one’s life could only possibly mean the sort of shallow, acquisitive hedonism of “he who dies with the most toys wins.”
I would have prefered a message in the like of “There’s probably no god. Start worrying, your life is in your hands.”
I’m with Roberto. Yes, the original slogan can be interpreted as “shallow, acquisitive hedonism” if you choose to – and we all know who will choose to. It’s never a good idea to hand your enemy the opportunity to twist your own words to suit their purposes.
Some years ago, I read an article very similar to the claims of the column. That article blamed all of Wall Street’s woes on anti-anxiety drugs. Apparently, half of the stock-traders are blissed-out on various calming meds, and don’t give a rip for the consequences of their actions.
My medical consultant thinks that is very unlikely, by the way, but the similarity was interesting.
Idiots and charlatans like Lebedouch are of little consequence. The real problems are the Faldwells (good ridance!) and the Pat Robertsons. They have massive followings and have vast organizations.
And that’s the problem with us atheists. We are not organized, we have no unified front. We don’t even have political representation.
We keep getting kicked in the teeth by the religious bullies of the world.
16%! What are we gonna do about it?
R.
Hey, if Paul Nelson views all metazoans as developments of the Oval of Infinite Potential, maybe we should refer him to Stuart Pivar, world-renowned expert in balloon animal morphology!
That joke was so awesome it achieved sentience and posted itself in the wrong thread.