This is not one of those fake church signs: it’s the real thing, taken in Arkansas.
This looks like an irreconcilable difference to me.
We aren’t going to kiss and make up, sorry
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
Have to respect the honesty even if I do not respect the idea. And I will respectfully keep my distance from these nut jobs.
Sign on a local church here: “The Big Bang, You Gotta Be Kidding.”
Worse yet, sign advertising upcoming 4H Club meeting: “Intelligent Design Discussion”
No venue left untouched.
Wholly Smoke! That ought to drive every reasoning being away in all due haste, compartmentalized thinking or not! I’m not sure Dawkins could have said it better.
Isn’t that a Martin Luther quote?
For some reason, I have this feeling that whomever put that sign up was feeling rather smug about themselves… pity that it just shows how delusional they really are. Epic fail.
Well, there’s one thing we can agree on. There is a church sign on my way to work that says, “To ignore god is the height of selfishness.” I wish there was some way to reply to that non-sense. At least this sign would make me grin a little.
Lynna, you do realize what makes that sign really funny? Georges Lemaître, the person who first purposed what became known as “The Big Bang” was a Roman Catholic priest. “You gotta be kidding?”
It’s a Martin Luther quote, PZ.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Martin_Luther
Religious retards are the greatest enemy America has.
The walk among us.
Yeah, PZ, I thought for sure this was from http://www.churchsigngenerator.com/ but they don’t have that template, and don’t allow you to put lettering on the stanchion. Hmm, the fact that it’s a Martin Luther quote makes it more interesting than it should be.
It’s actually scary how many religious people would see no problem with this. Many of the followers who I know tout the importance of putting faith before anything.
it being a ML quote actually makes it worse: it’s not even original or honest, it’s just more rote memorization, and from such a vile source no less
Love the additional info, Janine. The sign here was on a Baptist church — so they’d just consider that more evidence of the “whore of Babylon” fucking up everything.
The 4H Club, like many social organizations here, is an extension of the LDS Church. Rotary Club, Boy Scouts…
It is saddening to see such a quote anywhere. Regardless of where it came from.
As an armchair philosopher that is particularly annoying.
They’re really kind of cute when they play with words, aren’t they?
Back in the 70’s I knew this Jewish woman. She used to say “Reason is the greatest gift God gave to man”. I wonder if the christers got that message? Apparently NOT. Dumbasses. Couldn’t read their way to comprehension of much of anything.
Uniquely interesting is the fact that we developed the power to reason on our own. No god needed.
Catholic grammar school:
Number of times the nuns talked about faith: thousands.
Number of times they talked about reason: zero.
At last! A church makes a statement with which I can unreservedly agree. Amen!
AlexS: Yes, Martin Luther said something very like it. The quote is “Reason … is the greatest whore that the devil has.” I quote it in both German and English here.
I’m surprised it wasn’t recognized sooner as a Martin Luther quote. I thought all us evil secularists were aware of Martin Luther’s stance on reason. It is, after all, the Devil’s whore.
Wait..wouldn’t other faiths be more of a threat than reason? I mean other faiths cater to the same ideals of bowing before some deity. While reason would imply a completely different course of actions. So reason is the greatest enemy but other faiths are more dangerous.
Look into PZ’s quote list: there are dozens of Luther quotes to that effect.
“To ignore the tooth fairy is the height of selfishness”…
Thanks to Zeno @18: Great quote from Martin Luther. Captures the attitude perfectly — and illustrates the amount of Scary that seethes below the surface of the Church-goer’s attitude. Holy Buckets!
Maybe it’s a reference to that Randist magazine…
Ummm…yah…thanks for the warning, but I kind of knew that already…
Perhaps, created in the image of God, we have both a conscious humor and an unconscious humor (neither fully developed as that of the Real Image). So being human we are mostly unaware of the unconscious humor, therefore we speak silliness when our conscious intentions are seriousness, and too, speak seriousness when we think it humor. So I image that many a theologian thinks one when doing the other, and vis versa.
Maybe in heaven we all will discover that the Catholic Encyclopedia is actually a Book of Humor!
You guys are scaring me. PZ, is this really such a prevalent problem? I mean, I know you are actively looking for these things but I’ve got to wonder if this is evidence of an epidemic of truly stupid Americans, or just a high level of exceptions to a reasonably intelligent population.
I sure hope it’s the latter. Frankly you have me a bit scared for the future of science. I don’t want to battle fundies all my life.
Um….. wow!
they aren’t even being covert with their deliberate ignorance. It’s like proudly exclaiming “I failed third grade math 7 times!” proudly as if it were an achievement.
Interesting to see photos of Georges Lemaître, wearing his clerical colloar, standing next to Einstein. Georges Lemaître was a great mathematician, so his brain must not have been too damaged by cognitive dissonance.
if you think that reason is the greatest enemy of your faith, then you ought stop all reasoning right now, and be officially declared insane/ demented. (you already are most likely anyway )
That’s supposed to be “collar” in post 28. Can’t proofread on Saturdays, apparently.
Zeno @18: It’s from his book table talk.
Although the quote you used is nice too. Especially when it says that doctors, kings, and emperors can’t help against reason.
#1 (and a few others): “I do not respect the idea”
You DON’T????
I do! Wholeheartedly!
They are absolutely right!
Reason IS the ultimate enemy of faith. No doubt about it.
And that’s exactly why we should keep promoting reason!
And no, we shouldn’t allow them to call themselves anti-reason. They’re UN-reasonable!
The people who erected this sign are self-addmittedly UN-reasonable!
myself @31… maybe calling it a book of his was an over statement. I’m still looking into what it was exactly, but I’m gathering his table talks were collected into book form at one point.
My all-time favorite real church sign , from Terre Haute, IN:
RESISTANCE IS FUTILE
YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED
WE ARE NOT BORGS
WE ARE SOUTHERN BAPTIST
[sic]
I really look forward to the time when we can ridicule them and be in the majority. It’s signs like this and the fact that a lot of people are going to be agreeing with this over on the faith side make me loathe humanity more and more.
Virus with shoes indeed.
I also would LOVE to ask the people who put up this sign:
“What’s the reason you put up that sign?”
The only correct (to them) answer would be “No reason whatsoever” (which would be an obvious lie).
Any other answer would of course, per (their) definition be rather un-faithful! Or at least an attack on their own faith.
Say what you will, at least they are being honest. Stupid but hinest would be a step up for Dumski and Co.
Odd how many theists attempt to witness atheists and other non-believers through ‘reason.’ “God must exist because X, Y, or Z” is a statement based upon reason, right?
The link in PZ’s post leading to “an irreconcilable difference” led me to an article by Natalie Angier that I hadn’t read before at
http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/angier02.htm
It’s well-worth a look.
Absolutely true, and reason kicks faith’s sorry ass every time.
“Reason is the greatest enenmy faith has”
Translation: “Faith is unreasonable”
(I wish they’d used the word ‘rationality’ rather than ‘reason’)
DJ @ 26 asks:
Yes, this is due to a high level of ignorance and intolerance in America.
Read the recent book (2008):
“The Age of American Unreason” By Susan Jacoby
She writes about anti-intellectualism, anti-rationality and evangelical fundamentalism and where they originated in America.
Well, that’s probably true. Reason and Faith have bickered since grade school.
Still, it makes me want to go and hit the pastor over the head with my copy of Phantom Tollbooth. :)
Complete, undisguised honesty? Is this a new tactic or did they just get confused for a moment?
The bible is actually very down on smart people in general. It actually counsels congregants to be like little children.
I remember reading an account of a Catholic priest in one of Shadia Drury’s books, talking about wrestling with the “Devil and temptation”, but when you read between the lines of his account you realized that his real struggle was between his own innate rational mind and his desire (and convoluted moral compunction) to “have faith”, i.e. wishful & magical thinking. It was profoundly sad to read about this.
I trust that it’s fair to say that the converse is also true.
What I find particularly ironic is that this statement is attempting to give a reason for not using reason.
To follow the instruction and not use reason would mean not following the reasoning used in the instruction, which would mean you should use reason and therefore follow the instruction and therefore not and therefore do and therefore not and oh no I’ve gone cross-eyed.
Thanks, chrisj. Yours is a better match.
I think people often misquote Martin Luther on this. Luther distinguished between 2 uses of reason (ministerial vs. magisterial) that people take.
The former is a reasonable position to take , the latter is tantamount to cognitive idolatry.
More here
http://books.google.com/books?id=-x7VzUxbmGYC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=ministerial+magisterial+reason&source=bl&ots=S9NqJeEG26&sig=Z7JqdQPb2h362QqUdxSz-bWZzLQ&hl=en&ei=_GHOSdCdDY_ItgfS5enhCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA37,M1
…and truth and honesty are the greatest enemies of the religious, and vice versa.
That sign is absolutely right. I just don’t think they realize how silly it makes them look.
Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has: it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but–more frequently than not –struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.
This, too, is true. Rather ironic, coming from Martin Luther, who came up with about 95 reasons why Mother Church was full of shit.
facilis, the Martin Luther apologist. not really surprising, but pathetic nonetheless
Real church sign: Religion is just like a part-time job, it won’t support you.
I know they meant something different(probably implying a personal relationship with Jesus is necessary)but of course since I’m an evil, godless, secularist, liberal, communist, hippie I deliberately misconstrued the meaning.
As for the Arkansas idiots, sadly it seems to be an epidemic not limited to one goegraphic region. Yes, schools should teach critical thinking skills and reasoning, but the emphasis gets placed on teaching to the standards test and rote memorization. For those that were taught those skills in school then I would say you had an exceptional teacher that didn’t bow to the pressures of those that say they want kids to think, but secretly hope they don’t.
Imagine if kids were able to reason and think critically! Then that stupid(but accurate)sign might take on the aura of prophecy.
Reason debunks faith, shows how silly faith can be I prefer trust my reason over ay faith
A few years ago, there was church sign that read; “Don’t make me hunt you down. God” I wish I would have taken a picture of that.
“Cognitive idolatry” is a lovely expression, mostly because it should be thought of as a bad thing, I surmise.
Besides, am I the only one to think that Mr. Luther often sounded like a mental case?
#10 Markb: wow! that’s great!
“There is a church sign on my way to work that says, “To ignore god is the height of selfishness.”
Sometimes people warning against selfishness are being sincere and helpful, but most of the time, I’d say keep an eye out for any hands in your pocket.
I made my sign:
http://pauillac.inria.fr/~ddr/images/churchsign.jpg
God lives in the bathroom of my parent’s house. Every morning my dad would beat on the bathroom door and yell: “God, are you still in there?”
My church sign:
“Easter is canceled. They found the body.”
Um, how, exactly, did they reason their way to that conclusion? If there was no reasoning, then they are taking it on faith, but taking it from whom?
In Kurt Vonnegut’s brilliantly mordant novel “Mother Night,” there’s a funeral for a dead Klansman. Campbell is asked to give the eulogy. Cambpell, who finds the Klansmen ridiculous but has no other friends, states that the dead Klansman’s life was a testament to those who think with their hearts instead of their heads and gets a nice round of applause for his effort.
In one way, the joke’s on Vonnegut who probably thought he was exaggerating.
If the creationists eventually win a majority, I wonder how long it would take for the United States to become a third world power, dependent on other countries for basic science research? Not to mention, how long would it take before we couldn’t fix our own machines?
Another stray thought: People who don’t believe in science should not use tools and technologies that developed out of scientific research. For them to use cell phones, computers, etc., is extremely hypocritical.
Real Huh? Real Scary is more like it. I am going to poach this image.
This is precisely the sort of quote that should send thinking people running from houses of worship. On the other hand, thinking people are a small minority, and given the results of idiots applying their “reason” to scientific matters, it would appear that for most people, the reason of the common man is only the friend of comedy.
that is the ministerial use of reason facilis wrote about.
Using reasoning and products of reason to destroy reason in the name of faith.
Here was an other joke that sadly backfired. In Slaughterhouse Five, Billy Pilgrim had a ‘Ronald Reagan For President’ bumper sticker.
ouch.
Of course, the religious don’t have the least problem with being hypocritical.
Some other nice quotes:
“But the Jews are so hardened that they listen to nothing; though overcome by testimonies they yield not an inch. It is a pernicious race, oppressing all men by their usury and rapine. If they give a prince or magistrate a thousand florins, they extort twenty thousand from the subjects in payment. We must ever keep on guard against them. ” – Table Talk, pg863
“Idiots, the lame, the blind, the dumb, are men in whom the devils have established themselves: and all the physicians who heal these infirmities, as though they proceeded from natural causes, are ignorant blockheads.”
“If [women] become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth–that is why they are there.”
“Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and … know nothing but the word of God.”
Yep, this Martin Luther fellow was a real pleasant fellow.
That’s comedy gold…. there was one recently at a Baptist church near my home that read, “Fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom”…. at that SAME church last week, a youth pastor was jailed for raping a 15 year old in his care. praise jeebus.
At least they’re honest about it. sigh…
Seen on a church sign…
“Your Sunday will be better if you come.”
Well, DUH!
As a former Arkansan (left with much fanfare at the age of 21 in 1991), I can affirm that sign sums up the majority view nicely. It does not make a gross generalization. I recall the minister of Open Door Baptist Church in Harrison, Arkansas stating that he believed English had been the original language, pre-Tower-of-Babel. WOW!
Slightly OT, we had one of those “Hell House” plays come to town. I was probably 14 y/o, way in touch with my gay side and already waging my war of reason with Xtianity. Yet I went out of curiosity. The point where a woman who had once had an abortion was thrown screaming into a fiery pit while her god-fearing mother was rewarded with a resurrected fetus/baby and the bitch smiles made me emotionally upset and sick to my stomach, but for reasons other than they intended. (She smiles at the baby in her arms???? Screw her daughter burning newly burning in hell I guess.) I can only imagine the effect it had on the true believer. Disgusting in the extreme. Great, now I need another xanax. Oh the memories…
WTF?
I’ll join you in a xanax but I will up you 2 scotch on ice… any takers? what’s your ante?
Well, that sign does speak for itself. I must say that it is a pleasure to have found your website. Good to see evidence of intelligent life on our planet. All too often I feel like a Star Trek character observing that “There are no intelligent life forms on this planet”. Speak out against creationism. Speak up for evolutionary fact – step out of the closet as it were. Hopefully, there are more of us than meets the eye. Of course, we are vastly outnumbered, but we must take a stand. We are threatened – all of us – by zealots – zealots of all flavors. Though believers are threatened by reason, believers threaten civilization itself (think dark ages then multiply by religion and finally add nuclear weapons). I’ve always been of the opinion that the voice of God exists in believers heads. How must it feel to have God speak from within your head and for him/her/it to say “Its lonely in here.” His voice echoes throughout the emptiness of their skulls – Hollow-be-thy-name. Again, happy to have found this place.
This makes me feel ashamed to be an Arkansan.
I don’t see it as a difference at all. I agree one hundred percent. People with reason have no faith in superstition. People who have faith in superstition have no reason.
The Fundies got this one right. Even a broken clock is accurate twice a day.
@LeeLee,
If I continue to dwell on that backward, self-righteous cesspool known as Arkansas it will take more than the off label combination of xanax and Scotch. I’ll be heading post-haste to Barnes-Jewish Hospital for a megadose of Haldol with a Lithium chaser. Ha!
#81/CRS – LOL! Ok you may not be a fellow “PsyD” but you still think like one! love your humor!
and ps
keep up the humor – all may be in desperate need
Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Martin Luther
This church is simply echoing what Luther said in the 1500’s and Tertullian said in the 3rd century. Early church fathers knew that faith and reason were irreconcilable.
Sorry, I should explain perhaps. I am “drowning” in the the current “great plains 2009 flood” (which includes limited battery time – writing pt notes by hand only to re-dictate when we have a working system). Yes, I join you in the recognition of Arkansas (I spent a spell there for my internship). There is a reason I said NO to AS and TX when I was done.
Whatever became of “Come now, let us reason together, saith the Lord”? (Isaiah 1:18 KJV) Or “be always ready to give … a reason of the hope that is in you …”? (I Peter 3:15 KJV)
… Nah. Actually reading the Bible and thinking is a bit too much to ask, isn’t it?
Priceless! :-)
Accurate too.
Interesting that when our local Grace Baptist church renovated and expanded (much to my dismay), they dropped the word “Baptist” from their big ass lighted sign in front of the building. Now it’s just “Grace Church”.
Is this happening anywhere else? I’m hoping it’s the Baptist ministries trying to divert attention from the fact that they are Baptists…
In today’s reasoning society, such quotations are surely turning more and more people non-religious.
Martin Luther’s full quote: ““Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but – more frequently than not – struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God””
True.
SO?
“Reason … is the greatest whore that the devil has.”
That is unreasonable.
Lip service: people may SAY that but in daily life they don’t ACT like it. They don’t get into their car and pray; they turn the key. They don’t act as if God is watching unless they’re in church. In fact, that might be one of the unsung purposes of church: to keep God out of our daily lives.
It’s right up there with “Farming is the backbone of the nation’s economy; and I want my children to have a better job.”
@Susannah
“Whatever became of “Come now, let us reason together, saith the Lord”? (Isaiah 1:18 KJV) Or “be always ready to give … a reason of the hope that is in you …”? (I Peter 3:15 KJV)”
I agree we should use reason. Martin Luther agrees.
“so it is with human reason, which strives not against faith, when enlightened, but rather furthers and advances it.”
-On Justification CCXCIV
It goes back to what I was talking about ministerial and magisterial use of reason. You can’t use reason against God and for the devil because that is idolatry.
This month, the church sign next to my apartments reads:
“Welcome to the Jesus Church”
Thank you for the clarification!
Yeah, and his distinction was crap. To say that “magisterial” use of reason is illegitimate is nonsense. And that argument is doing exactly what everyone here is criticizing these quotes for: it’s an attempt to artificially limit the use of reason, to “block off” faith from reason. For obvious reasons.
Feel free to remind folks that 4H is a government-sponsored organization, normally a part of the local land-grant university’s extension program and that they don’t get to sell their preferred religion in those circumstances.
I grew up LC-MS, then WELS, so Luther’s insanity was pretty much part of Sunday mornings. I have to agree with him, reason is an enemy to faith, at least if the faith refuses to take reality into account. The difference, of course, is that I don’t see how that’s a problem. Faith which ignores reality is foolish.
Former Facilis [49], so it’s reason as a propaganda tool, like science in service of Big Business and not business in service of Science? Gotcha.
When Martin Luther wrote, there was no Germ Theory, no psychiatry, no science of economics. Governments forbade Jews to own land and then cursed them for going into commerce. Kings routinely borrowed staggering sums of money from the Jewish community and then fomented persecution to kill them or drive them away instead of paying them. Anti-Semitism was a tool of the powerful and Martin Luther fell for it hook, line, and sinker.
Please, Facilis, explain to us how we misunderstand Luther’s hatred of Jews just like we misunderstand Luther’s hatred of reason. I can use the laughs.
Facilis #92:
Sort of contradicting himself, wasn’t he?
Whereas I Peter speaks of a reason for faith, Luther writes of reason as a “Me, too!” device. That’s apologetics, not reasoning.
Idolatry = worship of other “Gods”. Are you saying that the devil is a god?
And why would you imagine that reason can be against God and still be for the devil? One is just a mirror image of the other. If no god exists, neither does the devil.
What annoys me is that church signs and billboards like this are commonplace yet when Atheists answer back, it becomes big news and there’s massive outrage.
There may be other publications, but Vol. 54 of Luther’s Works, the cooperative translation of everything* Luther wrote by the American publishing arms of the various Lutheran bodies, has Table Talks in it.
* The first 55 volumes apparently were only about a third of what Luther wrote, so Concordia Publishing House has decided to do some more. They would like you to subscribe to the next 20 volumes. Isaac Asimov, eat your heart out.
But you must use reason against those who claim to speak in the name of God and tell us things that are false.
Reason destroys erroneous faith. The problem is that so many religious folks have faith in things that are known not to be true.
Facilis, #92 – you may be a “survivor” but you are still one dumb fuck. And that is not meant in the nice way either. (Sorry to everyone – I quote from an anonymous source)
Considering Asimov’s official bibliography is 515 books, still a ways to go. Still, that is prolific writing.
“Please, Facilis, explain to us how we misunderstand Luther’s hatred of Jews just like we misunderstand Luther’s hatred of reason. I can use the laughs.”
Because he says so, of course.
Because he says so, of course.
A few years ago, when my folks lived in Lubbock, TX, the church down the block from them had the following on their marquis at one point:
“You can’t be broad-minded on the narrow way”
(I have a photo of it around here, somewhere). We all got a good laugh about it, and concluded that if that were the case, we didn’t want to be on the “narrow way.”
I am not religious (nor do I believe — I’m agnostic), but I respect the idea of believing, of faith, although I’ve never experienced it. There IS such thing as a knowledge beyond knowing, a “knowing” in your bones that defys logic/ration/reason/explanation. I haven’t experienced this, but my own seeking and asking questions of intelligent, educated believers who have has convinced me that they’ve experienced something real (or beyond real, even) and legitimate (and worthy of worship) that does indeed warrant disregarding “logic” (WHICH IS A TOOL, DEVISED BY MAN’S PERPETUALLY LIMITED RANGE OF KNOWLEDGE AND LIMITED EXPERIENCE… also continuously disproved throughout the ages, therefore the validity of its foundings is bound by it context — ie, not immortal/undeniable/infinitely true and wise).
Don’t ever forget that logic is just as guilty of idolization as a Christian/other god. Hubristic science can be more dangerous than worshiping God.
Without reason there would be no automobiles, no airplanes, no television, no medicine, no law, no justice, and no hope. Prayer can only get you so far it doesn’t put food on the table and it doesn’t purify water.
Aren’t they just reiterating what we’ve been saying all along? So it’s agreed, then!
Blair Talbot-CAPS LOCK IS NOT A SUITABLE REPLACEMENT FOR PROFUNDITY
god, I’m fuckin sick of that.
Try harder, Blair.
Let the WOO begin. And I don’t mean that politely. If it can’t be measured, it can be a delusion.
Interestingly, I grew up about 50 miles from there. Had a friend from high school get married and move to that exact town. Wouldn’t surprise me if she goes to that church — it’s a town of only a couple thousand people, which in rural Arkansas, narrows the possible Baptist churches down to no more than about 900.
For whatever it’s worth, people there who knew of my atheism back then didn’t chase me around with pitchforks, but I’m sure how welcome I’d be there if they didn’t know me as the kid they grew up with before knowing me as the godless heathen.
Concern trolls are seriously concerned again….
and, if reason is what set us apart from animals, then, what is a christian to say about it? that really is faith what set us apart? but, doesn’t we need of reason to develop the concept of faith?
indeed, reason is the greatest enemy CHRISTANS has.
Ugh. I just saw on CNN that the army is paying a chaplain in Afghanistan $7,000 to
preachteach soldiers about financial management. It was preaching, honestly. A chaplain? A chaplain?The talking head said it was “amazing” that more people attended the lecture than Sunday worship. Maybe that should tell the chaplain and the army something.
Then I know beyond knowing that you owe me 1000000 €.
At least they are being honest about it.
the pastor chris fox debacle and the following debate on his bad actions has clarified a lot of questions for me. i am solidly on the side of the atheists of the world after hearing statements very similar to the above used to try to defend the wayward pastor. there are things in the world that can’t be explained yet (if ever) but such things have nothing to do with religion.
The troll known as Facilis, you need to pull your gawd out of a hat because you can’t find him through reason.
Or are you a better Christian than Martin Luther?
Reflexive OT CNN comment #2:
Wolff Blitzer, in discussing Obama’s Budgetzilla(tm), referred to criticism from “economist Ben Stein.”
I’m still wiping Coke Zero from my cat Leo and the laptop screen.
Blair, I’d refer you to Dan Barker’s book “Godless”. As a former pentecostal preachers, he describes, not only did he used to have those same feelings, he can generate them at will if he decides even as an atheist. They mean absolutely nothing, other than that your mind can play tricks on you.
When people claim they KNOW something beyond reason/evidence,we have a word for that. We call them delusional.
By the way what is “hubristic science” anyway? Did you coin that phrase?
It is absolutely true – reason is the greatest enemy of faith (religion, not trust) because religion is a lie. At least the churches are making it obvious that reason is their enemy and they want mindless drones.
For me it is Booker’s small batch bourbon, six drops of water and three poundings of my head upon the desk.
A knowing in your bones, eh? Please explain where the synaptic connections are that facilitate this process. Yes, I know it’s just an expression, but that’s my point. You cant do any better than an expression, leaving all the details fuzzy. Why is that? Oh, right, it can’t be explained, the greatest cop-out an argument can have.
Example:
There IS such a thing as a perpetual motion machine, a font of infinite energy that defies logic/reason/etc.etc.
How does it work? Don’t question me, it’s beyond knowing.
Where is it? Its location is inscrutable.
Can we see it? NO! Well, not unless you already believe, first.
Let me ask you something. If this knowledge is so resistant to scrutiny and reason, how exactly do you know it exists? Do you feel it? Because everything that we can feel, can be explained, physically. Do you know that other people experience it? How do you distinguish it from other perfectly explainable processes in your head, unless you’ve actually done brain scans to try to account for it? And if so, wouldn’t the process that demonstrated its existence render it..uh..subject to explanation?
I will not deny that people can have hunches, and feelings about things without any evidence. But even these times, when you feel like there is no evidence, you are usually going off of subtle cues.
How many libertarians does it take to change a lightbulb?
No need for change. The market will make it work.
I’ve never seen a truer church sign.
That church is for real all right. It even has a review.
From http://www.insiderpages.com/b/3709670980
Holy Spirit Filled Church-Beryl Baptist Church
By Michelle C.
“I love this church, have been attending there for 17 years and have grown closer to the Lord each year. We have a new pastor, John Lindsey and he is fired up for Jesus. Very inspirational and motivating friend and brother in Christ. We welcome all whom want to attend. God Bless You”
If the chruch likes that one, I’ve a few more they might try:
“An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred”
“A broad mind lacks focus”
“Tolerance is a sign of weakness”
“A small mind is a tidy mind”
“Ignorance is a virtue”
Poe’s law seems to extend to science fiction as well.
Last year the local (Silver City, NM) Harvest Fellowship overlooked the alternative meaning:
ARE YOU THIRSTY
FOR GOD COME
DRINK OF THE
LIVING WATER
I wonder if Ray Comfort would appreciate that slogan?
http://normdoering.blogspot.com/2009/03/ray-comforts-continuing-sex-problems.html
“Reason is the Devil’s whore.”
C’mon PZ if you’re goin’ to talk about fundies — the least you should know is that Luther said it better 500 years ago: “Reason is the Devil’s whore.”
And where did Luther get “permission” to damn reason? Why from old Justification Paul . . . read on:
For 2,000 years one vile hallmark of xianity has remained its hatred of natural science (world) and of skeptical philosophy (reason). The Stoics and Epicureans of Athens laughed at Paul of Tarsus when he spoke to them (50-60 CE). Paul’s anti-intellectual rejoinder is still holy writ:
20-Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21-For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22-Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23-but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles . . . . 1Cor1 20-23 NIV
In short, Paul and his fellow slum dwellers created a god glorifying their nihilistic valuations.
27-But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28-He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are . . . . 1Cor1:26-28 NIV
Xianity still appeals to those who believe themselves mistreated. To those in whom resentment surges. To those who must punish their guilty selves.
“Xianity is the practice of nihilism.” — Nietzsche. Directed inward, hatred of self. Directed outward, hatred of others and of nature.
Unquenchable hatred arises not from some peripheral ideological source — it spews from Paul’s life-negating worldview, tarted up as the religion of “love”.
anti-supernaturalist
Who among us does not enjoy attacking and ridiculing people whose beliefs differ from ours?
Phil in Santa Cruz:
Me, and I suspect most commenters here.
What I enjoy is ridiculing ridiculous beliefs. That they’re different is incidental.
As for attacking beliefs, I only attack those I consider pernicious; whether they’re different or not is not a consideration.
Phil in Santa Cruz said:
Ridiculous beliefs are worthy of ridicule.
And, of course, all beliefs are not equally valid, or worthy of respect.
Hard to convince someone they are incorrect, if they deny reason, hehe.
My favorite: Jesus is coming! Wear a raincoat.
The sign is sad and scary. I consider myself a person who has spiritual beliefs. Beliefs that don’t have any proof. However, I do not close my mind to the possibility that I am wrong. It is the “don’t confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up” kind of people that seem so pervasive in this country that frighten me. Unreasonable people are dangerous. People who refuse to accept overwhelming evidence that evolution is true, that the Bible (or Koran, or Torah) is the only book of worthwhile knowledge – these people choose ignorance. I don’t understand how anyone can be proud of stupidity. How do the rest of us keep them from making policy in our society?
I saw this…unfortunate stenciled message on a car as I was driving up to Charlotte last weekend: “Jesus…I’m Coming Soon.”
Here is one more from Psalms
Psalm 119:66
The goodness of reason and knowledge teach me, For in Thy commands I have believed.
Like I’ve previously stated. They don’t even know their way around their own book. How can they be trusted?
I don’t enjoy attacking people but I sure do like attacking their faulty beliefs. Especially when there is a scientific component that can be used to prove that they are wrong.
Speaking as a Christian: Bullshit.
Recovering Catholic: I don’t know whether you’re Grace Community Church in Houston, but I will point out that many Baptist megachurches in the Houston area breakaways from the liberal-leaning Texas Baptist Convention which has a woman president and has loosened its ties to the Southern Babtest Convention.
And yes, reason is indeed the enemy of faith. And reason tells us that we will not be free until we who reason gain the power to trample the faithful under our boots. We will exercise this power with more mercy and respect than they have shown us because we are better than them, but we must never forget what they have done and would do again if they had the chance.
It’s a real church, all right. You wouldn’t know it if you looked for it where its address is placed on Google Maps, though.
It’s a couple of blocks west along the highway. Here is a street view of it.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/Beryl-Baptist-Church-AR
There was a different message on the board when the camera car went by. Wish I could make it out, in case it was as profound. This one is insightful beyond the imagining of the fired up John Lindsey II.
AMEN
Yep, that’s Martin Luther. Here’s another one of his gems.
“All the articles of our Christian faith, which God has revealed to us in His Word, are in presence of reason sheerly impossible, absurd, and false.”
Well, reason kills faith. It’s true. Faith does not need reason, and indeed, reason removes faith.
.. which is why it’s possible to have both, just as long as you don’t apply reason to your faith or faith to your reason.
.. but that requires duality. Some people can’t really maintain that.
Wouldn’t want to exclude Catholics, and that I link to it I hope prevents this being a quote-mine: Vatican exorcist Amorth speaks on Satan’s smoke.
* Father Gabriele Amorth, founder and honorary president of the International Association of Exorcists
If not staggeringly stupid, then literally insane – the mind is fundamentally nothing but a reasoning device, albeit one that’s a great less than 100% reliable. Without reason, there is no conscious thought at all, just dumb animal instinct and pavlovian induction.
Even the moron who put up that sign was trying (and, evidently, failing) to apply reason when he wrote the damn thing! What possible thought process, other than reason, could produce such an argument? When such a person gives a sermon, and tries to explain how we should emulate Jesus’ alleged goodness or whatever, they’re attempting to use reason!
I think it would have been more accurately put that faith is the greatest enemy of reason. Thats why children put on explosive vests and set them off in street markets. Faith is pure laziness and an excuse to blame a God when our plans fall apart.
@ 131,
Not many here,I would assume.
We ridicule ridiculous religious beliefs and obvious insanity.
A lot of atheists or commenters here,say,disagree on a lot of topics all the time,but then we debate,and ridicule has no place in a serious discussion between parties that disagree on an issue.
Project much?
It surely is long way from “reason can probably not explain everything”. Although it (reason) seems to cover enough if you take the trouble to test it. I think a main test of spirituality (if that word should mean anything reasonable) is to know your own limits, and the test for priesthood seems to be close to the opposite.
Good ol’ Martin of Worms was pretty stuck with his text-collection and religious perspectives, but those were the days and he did the most of it. I can admire him for that, but I don’t admire people of today who believe his ideas are still foolproof.
There are some odd rooms of reality that I wouldn’t dream about explaining. I know that if I try pushing hard enough Insanity is just through that wall. But reason tells me I better enjoy what I have and get out in the fresh air as often as possible.
I don’t laugh of people who struggle. Like all real clowns, I cry.
Arrgh! This is the second time I have stumbled across your site. Surprise! It still sucks. Not commenting on the sign, I agree with you it is ignorant, if real.
You, however, do not make informed comments. Your attempt at logic is sad and you foster simplifications and generalizations that are harmful to having any intelligent debate on any issues.
I truly believe you are doing more harm to atheism discussion than good. Pardon my grade school understanding of psychology here, but it seems as though you have some need to feed off the negative comments about the other side. You show yourself to be a small man. Don’t be so juvenile where does the anger/hate come from? Judging your photo you look to be in your 50’s so grow up. You could use and moderate your site as a real informative and sensible tool. What is empty inside you? Have you given though to the creature you are feeding? Ha ha, look at them. They is stupid!, seems to be the best you can come up with. With just A LITTLE thought I am sure you could make persuasive and logical arguments for atheism/evolution. Good luck to you. I wish you all the best.
I’m a church goer and I even disagree with this. (Albiet my church is much more liberal, and I use it more for a moral base and an institution that lets me do good things for my community more than anything else.)
Seriously…no matter what your perspective on religion is, you have to agree that this sign is really a kind of oxymoron…if you believe in God, and He didn’t intend for us to use reason, then… why do we have the ability to reason? (And don’t tell me it is because Adam and Eve ate the apple from the tree of knowledge. The first five books of the bible are bullshit and everyone, including the church, knows it. They’re called the “Mythological” books for a reason.)
In conclusion, this church would scare me, too.
Shorter dave:
BAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWW
Well, thank God for that!
I have seen this exact phrase on the sign of a church near my sisters home in Pittsburgh PA. As of last week the sign read “If you are too open minded your brains will fall out”
*smacks forehead and sighs*
Ding-dang-dong it… “here’s your sign…”
Goyishe types sure are allergic to paradox and multiple truths, aren’t ya? *grin*
pax
ZB
Dave,
Your concern is noted.
I respect this on truth-in-advertising principles.
Heh, truth-in-advertising is completely fine by me.
I find this to be hilarious though, is that bad?
– Rodney, Government Grants Consultant/Rep
What a great picture. I guess we can call it even on the whole “Darwin was wrong” cover debacle now.
I think the sign should read “Darwinian reasoning in the Anti-Christ”
Jeremiah 10:23
I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.
Well,the sign is almost correct. It should read something like, “Reason is the greatest enemy blind faith has.”. I have faith that an object will fall to the ground when I drop from where I am standing. This is “faith” based on experience, years of rigorous experiments, and a solid theoretical framework (though really, common experience here is sufficient for this case). But faith without any such evidential backing, such as an incarnated god being killed and resurrected 2000 years ago, well, that’s just kind of silly. A small amount of reason does handily dismiss it.
im a christian ..just not a scientific illiterate
. just what i needed, to be associated with ignorant f**kwits ….some theists in this country are incredibly stupid ..they just don’t think at all
sorry, if reason says that faith is wrong, i go with reason
the creationist pastor right across the street from me wonders why i’ll say hello in the street, get into long friendly conversations with him and his wife, and NEVER go to his church …..it’s unthinking idiotic stuff like this that i try to keep away from . and i REFUSE to support it by giving money
#9 and all others so inclined… please stop using that word. Would you call someone a white n****r?
http://www.r-word.org/
Regarding #150: OOOHHH the humanist of the year upset a guy named Dave. yeah, that’s really going to make waves and make PZ beat his chest and regret everything he’s ever said.
At least this church understands that its wrong, even if it doesn’t believe that it is. :|
Thinking Not Allowed
Morons Only
Here’s one I saw the other day:
IF GOD IS YOUR CO-PILOT
SWITCH SEATS
yeah, I’ll drive, thanks just the same.
Of course it’s true. It perfectly highlights how mindless they’ve become. “Faith” to them is a is a nice shiny word, and they give it some vague positive associations. They don’t know why.
As they will be the first to volunteer, they don’t have to know why, and assert it with a senseless pride. All that matters is that it is to be mindlessly defended against attack by bad things like “reason”. (And a host of other push-button ‘bad words’ like ‘liberals’ and ‘atheists’).
They are so void of reason and devoted to its antithesis that they don’t know how irrational they are. They just don’t understand you need reason to properly understand anything. It doesn’t matter to them. It’s “all a matter of faith” and they don’t need to think about it. Thinking is too tough. They have faith that God takes care of all the thinking for them…
It’s curious how fundamentalists will throw a fit when confronted with the suggestion that humans are thoughtful animals, when their faith does such a good job of turning them into the equivalent of mindless worms. Worms don’t need reason either. God does their thinking for them, just as He does for the other sort.
Res ipsa loquitor
Fun fact: 40% of Americans are incapable of using logic.
They’re stuck in the concrete operational stage.
I’m not kidding.
Hey, religiobots – here’s your sign.
I saw the same quote on an Alabama Baptist Church about a year ago. I started to take a picture of it, but decided it wasn’t worth turning around. I guess I should have. As others have pointed out, you rarely find a profound truth on a church sign.
As a small-town Alabamian, I pass hundreds of churches on a drive of any length. You notice that the same messages are appearing on different churches as if there is some kind of rotation. There has to be a booklet, or a ministerial email forward of quotes going around. It’s as if the only marketing tool they have left is the (occasionally) witty one-liner.
Are there any churches left without a storefront sign with changeable letters? 20 years ago the signs in front of churches simply stated times of worship and the pastor’s name.
So how delusional does one have to be in order to say something like that, and feel good about it?
Scary.
3 out of every 10 Americans can not find Canada on a map.
4 out of every 10 Americans refuse to believe that I’m actually joking about the previous statistic.
Another 3 out of every 10 Americans believe that the annexation of Canada as the 53rd state is inevitable.
Recent conversation with Christian uncle: “Two of my five kids have lost their Faith. I blame public school.”
My response in my head: “Yup.”
My response out loud: “Hmmm.”
Go Chicago-area public schools!
fyi, not all Christians are as dumb, or as hypocritical as the more outspoken make us seem. Some of the loud ones give us a bad name by comdeming others for faults of their own. We are all sinners, and many of them forget that they are too. (I believe that many of them have forgotten John 3:17 “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.”) Just know that there are some intellegent, caring, non-hypocritcal Christians out there who realise that they fall short. We are called to love, not to condemn, some people forget that.
Yes it is. I fail to see any negativity towards reason.
I grew up right down the road from Beryl :D Weird! I’m surprised to see most of the comments are degrading to religion, as opposed to my home state ^_^ I thought for sure I’d see the words “inbred” and “rednecks”.
The hostility against religion is stupid. Individuals should be blamed for their actions. Blaming Christianity for violence or narrow-mindedness is like blaming GTA for school shootings. Besides, as long as there are humans there will be religion, its just how human nature works. Most Christians aren’t bad people, they’re just misled like everyone else is. Let’s face it, as a species we’ve been kind of laugh out loud stupid since the get go, there are no superior groups.
epic analogy failure
and your concern anon, it has been noted.
You could say I am an agnostic strictly speaking, but an atheist because it’s the most reasonable position, even if untenable epistemologically. But before I’m either of the two I am a rationalist.
So, I think comments like “I can use the laughs” are useless, and demerit the rationalist position. Historical perspective is needed to explain why and exactly how wrong Luther’s take on reason was. Let facilis point out history. What we can use afterwards is serious unbiased analysis, not cheap sarcasm.
But it has its bad points, too. :-)
how about
To ignore selfishness is the height of god.
Blgs r s nfrmtv whr w gt lts f nfrmtn n ny tpc. Nc jb kp t p!!