I confess to some mixed feelings about this one. Several schools in Wisconsin hold their graduation ceremonies in local churches, and Americans United is threatening litigation to block them. One the one hand, I am all for secularizing ‘sacred’ spaces — let’s take them all over and do something useful with them for a change. On the other, I don’t think that’s what this particular situation is all about, since it looks like the schools are using the churches to pollute what should be a secular ceremony with religious smog.
There is a poll, so you can weigh in on the topic…and like all online polls, I’m sure this one will be incredibly influential.
Should public schools be allowed to hold graduation in a church building?
Yes (79%)
No (21%)
Yes Master, I have voted
I see no reason to treat churches differently than other buildings. No matter what goes on in there.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
Um, OT, but vax oriented
It’s great to have a court of law decide scientific issues, isn’t it? At least they got this one correct:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090212/ap_on_go_ot/autism_ruling
Point taken, PZ, but we’ve got to vote No, haven’t we? Well, I’ve already done so.
Done and done, nothing like poll crashing first thing in the morning!
This kind of reminds me of people complaining about voting or polling being held in churches. I don’t really see that it matters what the building is normally for; it’s got the indoor and parking space needed for another purpose, so you might as well use it.
Wow, this is happening right in my backyard. Not only is it in my state, but according to the article, the schools in question are in my county as well. (Waukesha County)
Well it all depends. If they’re just using the buildings, because they happen to be the most appropriate spaces that are available, what the heck. But if either:
a) They have religious mumbo jumbo going on during the ceremony or
b) It’s a sneaky way to throw the church some cash
then it’s a problem.
Yes, let’s secularize those insane, er, sacred places by turning them into much needed public restrooms or storage depots.
I have no problem with using church space for graduation if 1) there aren’t any other large venues available and 2) the ceremony is kept strictly secular.
I already know, however, that my second condition is untenable. So fuck ’em.
Instead of crashing a poll, which is a waste of both time and effort, send a buck to Americans United. At least you will have done something meaningful (and hopefully influential).
Ah, the article does talk about the church putting up inappropriate banners and handing out pamphlets.
I’m not sure that I’d be okay with this even if everything seemed to be on the up and up. It’s still obviously a building dedicated to Christianity, and it’s going to make some non-Christian students uncomfortable. To turn it around, what would the reaction be to holding an entirely secular graduation ceremony in a mosque?
Having a number of family members that attend this Elmbrook church I can confirm it is a cauldron of bat-shit crazy, a perfect stereotype of the far right evangelicals
Waukesha much resembles Chernobyl, but with more mutants
Sorry PZ… I voted “yes.”
My baccalaureate was in a church hall.
There was no mumbo-jumbo involved.
We had many rock concerts in the associated church.
However, this was in Canada, people aren’t as crazy…
I say we repurpose them into something like bookstores, something that is antithetical to what the church stood for back when it was useless.
I just heard that idiot uri geller has paid £30,000 for a shoal of rocks off east coast of scotLand.
Apparently they are roughly in orion belt / pyramids formation.
Idiot inspired by a book called scotonomicron, written by rab c nesbitt.
phramed!
A much more important poll, at least for Wisconsinites, is the one listed just below the one on graduations held in churches. Has Brett Favre played his final NFL game?
Stogoe – you beat me to it
No! No! and Hell No!
If the ‘church’ gets to be used for secular purposes, then it needs to pay taxes as a secular enterprise.
fair is fair.
Well, this is another one with poor wording. “Be allowed to” vs “should they”. I think they should have the freedom to be able to if need be, but I really can’t see why they would need to. What’s wrong with the school building?
TonyC brings up a good point: if churches are being used for secular purposes, should they then have to pay their taxes? If they are receiving any type of compensation (if they are renting it to them, like any other hall) then most definitely, yes. And saying that any cash exchanged is a “donation” is only playing with words. That would be a compensation, therefore a payment.
eddie, re Scotinomicron
that is epic!
I needs to buy me a copy!
[rab]
Oh, a miss ma wee rab, so a dae! av goat some a series wan that a played tae some American pals – they jist didnae get it! Thur glaiket expressions made Jamesy look smert, so they did!
[/rab]
That church is so big and they spent so many millions on their gold plated roof or whatever… funny thing, I’ve produced radio in their studios.
Keep ’em separate I sez.
Slightly On Topic but the question presupposes there should be religious buildings. The correct answer follows.
Matthew Pickard
Did they let you do that for free, or did you need to pay, as if you were using a commercial studio?
there would have to be a very good reason. such as, hail storm (maybe fire and brimstone) destroys school building. Bad weather continues and so outside ceremony is untenable, and the only building big enough is a church building.
I fail to follow the logic of folks saying if the church building is used by tax payers (I assume for free) for an even that normally would cost tax payer dollars (electric bills at minimum) why would church have to pay taxes?
If the town hall burns down and if the church is composed of a group indivuals are are civic minded decide to write a check from church funds, should they then have to pay taxes in the future?
I always wonder how these polls would go if they changed the word “church” to the word “mosque?”
Do you think people would still be as accepting of secular institutions using religious buildings?
For those with no life…the poll stands at 50% v 50%
Currently at 50/50 (with 1183 votes (so I suspect some rounding)).
I got my Master’s while attending a small extension campus in Tulsa, Oklahoma. The campus did not have the facilities for commencement, so I wasn’t surprised to hear it would be held someplace else. I was surprised to hear tha “someplace else” was Oral Roberts University.
I attended at my wife’s insistence. Three years of classes, she was damn well going to get a picture of me in a dress. I offered her an exclusive photo op. She refused. So off to ORU we went.
Nobody proselytized, nobody sermonized, nobody distributed tracts. (Some of the Wisconsin churches should take notes.) Still, just walking across campus puts you in physical danger: even if you’re not blinded by the glare from all the gold-plated architecture, you’re tempted to rip your eyeballs out just to relieve the pain caused by its sheer ugliness. I thnk if I had been a Muslim or a Jew my comfort level may have been even more sharply reduced. Enough to stay away? Some did.
Was there no place else in Tulsa that could accommodate us? I don’t know, maybe free parking was a criterion. I understand the need for adequate facilities and it shouldn’t matter how the space is used Sunday morning. But I’m pretty sure that there are cases where the religious setting is a first resort when it should be the last one.
rb
1) you are assuming it is for free – I personally doubt that very much, but it is not mentioned.
2) If the building is not religious, it is secular. If it is secular it should pay taxes. If it is NOT secular it should STILL pay taxes (IMNVHO)
I grew up in a small town in Waukesha County. And when it came time to attend college, I was happy to get the hell out of there. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed the local forests, state parks, and lakes, but Waukesha County is highly conservative, and highly religious. Naturally, this also means it’s a place devoid of any real culture.
I can only imagine how the local talk radio personalities are going to respond to this. The outrage will be palatable.
I’d have to say “it depends.” The church might have the best acoustics and parking. Many churches have attached halls that are used for all kinds of community activities. What I’d want to say is that school graduations shouldn’t be turned into church services.
OT
Ray Comfort & Dr. David Loye of “The Darwin Project” will be on Thom Hartmann’s show on Air America radio this afternoon.
Why is it phrased “a national organization that advocates separation of church and state” rather than “a national organization seeking to uphold the constitution of the United States”?
This was a few years ago, but if I recall correctly we at least paid for the engineer. I don’t think we paid a dime for the studio though. We may have. I was just there to co-direct the production. The choice of Elmbrook was not mine – it was my CD.
The agency I worked for is a private entity, and we were not using taxpayer money for our half day production.
That should be sufficiently annoying. No offense to Dr. Loye, but Comfort can ruin anything. He’ll spend half the show dodging and the other half quoting scripture and the other half running down the list of logical fallacies, especially appeal to consequences.
Wait that’s three halves.
Is the space free? I don’t think so. If there is money changing hands then no. Why support silliness.
Our HS used to do them on the football field. After an outrageous event at my graduation*, they moved to a Jai Alai fronton. I felt it was a much better choice, as it could facilitate betting on the outcome.
*In a field behind the dais, where the officiants could not see but the audience could, a van appeared, and drove around a baseball diamond a few times. Then it started doing donuts in the dirt/grass. While a speaker was up, the audience went “OoooooohhYEEEAAAAH” as the van went up on two wheels and then over onto its’ side. The cops showed up a little while later and found 3 minors and a keg of brew inside. Melbourne (FL) HS, 1980.
Matthew Pickard
that is irrelevant. What is relevant is if the church facilities are used commercially to gain revenue, competing against other commercial enterprises, in a secular marketplace. If so, those enterprises, and that income, should be fully taxable as regular businesses. The facilities should not be considered ‘tax exempt’ since commercial enterprises do not (generally) satisfy the tax code requirements for exemption.
Graduation ceremonies are stupid and boring. I never went to any of mine. You can pick up your diploma from the appropriate office at your convenience, and you don’t have to dress up like Severus Snape to do it.
I don’t have a problem with using the building, or even the cross (because let’s face it, a 30-foot cross sounds like a fairly permanent fixture). One thing nice about renting church space for a graduation – most come with an organ for playing ‘pomp and circumstance.’
However, both the church and the school should be trying to minimize the religion as much as practical. School personnel should be taking down any regular religious banners before they use the place (and then replacing everything nicely when they are done). And the church should not be hanging religious banners specifically for the occasion or handing out pamphlets. That seems a clear case of using their status as landlord to impose religion on a leasee.
Baudi is right. If you asked the xians to have their graduation in a mosque the place would be fire-bombed. For those trying to be “reasonable” you must understand the nature of the subtle (and obviously not-so-subtle) proselytizing that is part and parcel to this type of “compromise”. No unbelieving child or parent should have to cross a church door in order to receive that which is rightfully theirs (nor agnostics,Jews,Muslims,or pagans for that matter). Freedom of religion is freedom from religion!
Given the phrasing of the question and the options available, I voted “yes”, although I would really vote “yes, with some caveats”, more or less the ones PZ mentioned.
Allowed? I don’t see why not. Infesting the proceedings with religious babble – more questionable.
It’s a long time since I was one for ceremonies, myself, so I’d not be likle to attend (and in the unlikely case that I did, I might put on shorts and a Hawai’i shirt (sorry for the lack of ‘okina)).
But. The only place I have experience with is Bath (though I didn’t watch the proceedings there either). The uni really is the most ugly thing ever – “a cross between an aircraftcarrier and a crematorium” – so the Abbey really does make for a nicer setting.
Presumably they have some sorta prayer to see things off. I know they do for concerts when the Abbey is the setting, thanking God for the gift of music, yaddah yaddah. I’ve bowed my head and played along since I figure it’s their house, so they make the rules. And they really do have a very nice organ.
So, yeah, Iono …
FYI
The poll now stands at
Yes (39%)
No (61%)
Total Responses: 1704
Pharyngulated
I’m kind of on the fence on this one.
My college graduation was held in the Baptist church across the street from my school. We were a small, but growing private college, and we simply did not have the space for the ceremony. The church was a short walk away and had ample space for us to exploit.
The church was not involved in the graduation at all. There was no mention of god or anything remotely religious during the ceremony. The only thing I didn’t particularly care for was the gigantic cross behind everyone in the class photo. But five minutes and Photoshop took care of that little problem for me.
I guess it’s ok as long as the school keeps the ceremony completely secular. After all, it’s just a building.
Depends on the church. The Elmbrook church in the article with its 30 foot cross and Jesus banners is clearly inappropriate. My son, however, graduated from public HS in the beautiful historic church building of the liberal Fountain Street Church which includes stained glass images of Plato, Leonardo da Vinci, Desiderius Erasmus, Louis Pasteur, Charles Darwin, Roger Williams, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln along with Christian images.
I have no problem with that.
All of you thinking independently and arguing it’s ok, don’t you know that Pharyngula commenters are a cult, slavishly hanging on PZ’s every command. The high RWA fundies turn up often enough to remind us of the fact.
But Matt, even the great PZ waffled on this issue. Doesn’t that mean that must as well?
Here is proof of divine intervention and miracles as an answer to prayer – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToQQorOYDy4&NR=1
I didn’t realize we were having an argument. Settle down.
I remember the first time I been in a church. It was a school activity….
…it was a symphonic concert and they were playing cool songs like the Star Trek theme. It was SOOOOO AWESOME. Some churches are really great for music shows.
That poll is a bad one. Schools should be allowed to use the church…. Very often it’s the best room there is in some small towns for big events. But the whole “ceremony” should be secular.
You’re quite right Charlie. I, for one, have exactly the same mixed feelings in exactly the same proportions as PZ.
Nausicaa @ 30
Nausicaa Of the Valley Of the Wind? Hayao Miyazaki!
Ha. The whole segment was about 5 minutes but I think Comfort got in all three halves. Mostly it came down to “evolution is just a bunch of crazy talk” and “it’s completely outside of my ability to understand” ranting.
jimmyraybob, I’ll admit I just listened.
holy shit it was bad.
Oh yeah, Comfort also went to the Paris Museum of Natural History and didn’t find the transition fossils on display.
Absolutely not. If you’re holding the ceremony in a building decorated with crucifixes, worshipful paintings, etc., then it’s already non-secular, regardless of what the actual words spoken may be.
Yes that was pure stupidity.
Unfortunately Thom was flailing about as well.
I wish he would have had Dr. Loye on to smash the Banana man.
Thank the FSM it was short. As Hartmann said, a creationist clogging up his show. One lesson I learned though, don’t let the creationist control the discussion – put up or shut up, start the 60-second timer and don’t be shy to cut it a bit short when cuckoo crazy land is reached.
Yeah Thom did well with that. Sounds like he hung up on Comfort, that or Comfort hung up on him. There was no good byes or anything.
Good. Fuck Ray.
Yeah, I guess it’s one thing to intellectually understand what running into the crazy wall is and another thing to actually run into it. Must be jarring.
I attended my twin nephews’ graduation from Brookfield Central High School back in 2002 at Elmbrook, the church that is the focus of this threatened legal action. I found it odd, uncomfortable, and an inappropriate mixing of church and state. The justification is that it is the only public space in the area large enough to accommodate the crowd. Attending the ceremony felt icky, like I needed to take a shower when it was over.
I don’t really have a problem with the building itself being used to host a purely secular event, there’s nothing inherently religious about the four walls and a ceiling that would preclude it from being used, perhaps for the only worthwhile thing that goes on there all week, but I do agree that using a church building in order to inject religion into what is supposed to be an entirely secular event is a bad idea.
I rather doubt you’d get support from the Christian parents if the school were using a Muslim Mosque or the Scientology Center for the event.
I would see nothing wrong with it, provided the church first removed all death-cult imagery, so that there would be little difference between that and a school auditorium.
But, of course, that would defeat the point of the church suckering in a flock of marks.
The Always Fearful Americans have a deep and meaningful poll, too: What’s the primary reason that some TV stations are refusing to air Speechless: Silencing the Christians?
And don’t miss the Darwin Day story linked just below the poll:
As some have pointed out the church may be the only place big enough in the town so if the ceremony and trappings are non-religious (which does not seem to be the case here) it should be ok (note however that some religions prohibit their members from entering the sacred spaces of other religions). Using a football field or other outside space is really only viable if you can trust the weather.
As for payment, the church is certainly entitled to be paid to cover the cost of using the space (e.g., cleaning it up, paying the organist) as well as a little over as long as it doesn’t go for purposes that are not allowed under the tax laws. As the school itself is considered non-profit there is no use of the church’s property for taxable commercial purposes (renting the space so a local business could sell stuff would be problematic). Don’t mix up religious versus secular with commercial versus non-profit.
We totally take that poll at 65.
My son graduated this year in the same building I graduated in (me 1972). It is the auditorium of the local Catholic College err now University. In this area, it is the largest capacity and most accessible venue in the county (great handicap access). Other than having a couple of small wall hangings of some Jew in obvious pain in a couple of the small meeting rooms, there weren’t any other evident overtones. All of the high schools use this place for graduation. They line them up for a week Monday 7 PM one high school, Tuesday 7 PM another – Saturday 12N, then a 3 PM performance, then a 7 PM for a third school that day.
I don’t know the financial arrangements though. They rent the facility out to all kinds of secular activities like job fairs, RV/Boat sellathons etc. They do seem to make an effort to be part of the community. I haven’t heard anything about where they have barred anyone or any group from renting the factlity including the state Airstreamers convention. It seems that if you got the money, they have the building/time.
They have held rock shows there. In the late 60’s and early 70’s some of the smaller acts played there since it was a college – Buddy Miles, Electric Flag, and lots of local bands. The cops stayed outside and everything went fine. There have been only a few the last couple of years or so. I think the rock scene has gotten a little too weird for the monks on the hill that run the college. Or maybe it is the other way around?
@ #65:
They should have the option “Because AFA is a bunch of homophobic dumbfucks” and I would SO participate.
Another poll on the Speechless video:
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Poll.aspx?ekfrm=418556
What’s the primary reason that some TV stations are refusing to air ‘Speechless: Silencing the Christians’?
They fear reaction from homosexual activists – 42.41%
They fear potential loss of ad revenue – 19.15%
They do not like programs from a Christian perspective – 33.61%
They feel their viewers will not be interested – 2.48%
Other – 2.35%
TonyC wrote, “What is relevant is if the church facilities are used commercially to gain revenue, competing against other commercial enterprises, in a secular marketplace. If so, those enterprises, and that income, should be fully taxable as regular businesses. The facilities should not be considered ‘tax exempt’ since commercial enterprises do not (generally) satisfy the tax code requirements for exemption.”
And that is already covered by the tax code.
A church, or any other 501(c)(3) tax-exempt entity, must pay taxes on income which is not related to its primary mission. See http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=123293,00.html
Whether churches do file is a different question which I cannot answer.
However, my experience is that most churches do not charge for civic functions like this, they consider it part of their community out-reach (and probably don’t want to worry about filing any revenue with the IRS). Whether that means that other businesses are hurt because a church offers a free venue is yet a different social question.
“…because it’s the only place big enough.”
There’s a need to address the historic injustice. Looks like they’ve been abusing their privelege to stifle competition.
“…because it’s the biggest venue around.”
Ditto the above. And maybe you should demolish it until something else is biggest.
Well, as long as they keep trying to pray in our schools, then we might as well go ahead and think in their churches.
Flex – thanks for the link to IRS. (I was too lazy to go find it) regarding
I have two comments
1) if a church charges for the space at all, then it should be treating that rental as commercial – regardless if the recipient is non-profit orfor-profit (per tax code as you linked).
2) if the church is providing the space for free, is that provision affecting the local commercial landscape? Does it provide equal access? Does it’s provision of access to SOME organizations for free cause an imbalance in the viability of local organizations with antagonistic viewpoints? (i.e would they happily provide free access to the local atheist freethinkers society?)
(sorry for rambling #2 but it’s all connected)
The school is in the wrong here for polluting the ceremony, but I voted yes on the poll. Churches often have BIG spaces, and sometimes they really are the best venues available, especially in small communities.
Senator Randy Brogdon is the guy who filed the Academic Freedom Act.
Are we scared yet?
And I thought the creationists on the Texas Board of Education were pieces of work. Not scared? Follow the first link. Unless you are too young to remember the society that hosts that page you will be.
In many cases, a church may be the only building in town large enough for a graduation ceremony. At my high school, the biggest open space was the gym, and it was barely large enough for the student body, much less all the family and friends that attend a graduation ceremony. We had to use the multi-purpose “pavilion” at a local Catholic college (Jorge, are you from Lacey, WA?). And we were still only given a small number of tickets.
So I have no problem with using religious facilities for a public school event. The problem is whether or not the event is kept secular, and in this case they seem to be crossing that line by putting up religious banners and handing out pamphlets.
a lurker
followed the links -whoa!
and this was my favorite page 1 bio:
My university does matriculation/graduation in a Norman Cathedral… you really aren’t many secular buildings in the country which beat it for size, grandeur and history.
A town of forty thousand people doesn’t have a community center or a school with a gymnasium? The local “Sharon Lynne Wilson Center for the Arts” is a secular institution and seems to have several indoor auditoriums and 350 parking spots with a “grassy overflow lot on the northwest side of the building available when the main lot is full.”
I voted no for the obvious reasons, but there is another issue at stake here. Why would a high school lack a building suitable for large gatherings? They don’t have a gymnasium? Why not?
The people of this town, state and country need to carefully consider why the basic infrastructure of their society is so deficient, and demand change.
“Unfortunately Thom was flailing about as well.”
Thom Hartmann is a christian, and on one show he “debated” an atheist, and he used the same old idiotic arguments to claim that atheism makes no sense, is a “rejection” of god rather than simply a lack of belief in one, etc.
Don’t expect him to reliably be on the side of reason when it comes to woo.
Reference #77 JSug
Not a bad guess at all. Even as large as the Pavillion is, it was packed to the gills for all the gradutions I have been to in it.
Did you ever go to one of the “Music Events” that they used to have there? I grew up about 10 blocks from he place, so we could walk there and not worry about driving. At the time the LPD was a friendly small town police force. I don’t live there anymore, so I don’t know if the police attitude has changed. I lived down the street from a guy who eventually became a Police Chief – he was a real right winger type. When I grew up there, it was a great place to grow up.
Jafafa Hots @ 82 says, “Thom Hartmann is a christian, …”
I’ve wondered about that but thought that he might be infested with some varieties of woo instead. Maybe a potluck of his own making.
What leads you to conclude Christianity?
I found an image of the Darwin window at the Fountain Street Church. Their secular windows were installed in 1924, I think.
Happy monkey!
he admitted it during the Ray interview today.
i knew nothing of Thom pre-today. I wasn’t impressed other than he did a good job not letting Ray take over the interview with a full on bullshitfilobuster.
Thom however made plenty of comments that revealed he had a thin grasp on the arguments he was supposedly taking the side of.
Our atheist group meets in a church. (Laugh all you like, but the Unitarians rent us the space.) Also, in our small town, the church was often the only building capable of handling a large crowd. So long as the school handles the remainder of the graduation properly, and the building is selected for reasons OTHER than its normal function, I don’t see a problem.
Our local chapter of Americans United for Separation of Church and state meets in a Church Gymnasium
“I’ve wondered about that but thought that he might be infested with some varieties of woo instead. Maybe a potluck of his own making.
What leads you to conclude Christianity? “
He has regularly said he’s a christian. I knew that beforehand, but I was so disgusted with his attack on atheists that my respect for him plummeted.
If AU is involved then there must be something sinister going on – after all, a large number of members are very religious and probably wouldn’t complain if a religious institution were merely providing a place to meet.
Off topic but this is worth a look. Trickery in religion and trickery in explanation. Oh, those cleaver christians.
Yes (23%)
No (77%)
Total Responses: 4595
You need to update this article with the current results of the poll.
Two comments:
1) What do you expect out of the most Republican county in the country? I’m sure they believe that if the majority of students are Christian, then Christianity should be allowed in public education. It’s that damn tricky Constitution that protects minorities from majoritarian rule. Who needs it. (I’m from a suburb of Milwaukee, and live right on the border of Waukesha. It’s nothing but Christians and Republicans. I’m not surprised one bit that they wouldn’t see a problem with having public ceremonies in church. I hope Americans United cleans house).
2) “One the one hand, I am all for secularizing ‘sacred’ spaces — let’s take them all over and do something useful with them for a change.”
I agree. Let’s take over churches and do something useful with them. Who cares if private individuals want a place to get together to practice their private beliefs? They’re not doing anything useful. Same goes for private businesses that produce useless stuff. Let’s take them over and make them do useful things. Public confiscation of private holdings has a phenomenal track record, right?
(Note: I’m not endorsing churches or religion. I’m endorsing the right of individuals or groups to voluntarily do whatever the hell they want. Without tax-exempt status, of course. That should be repealed ASAP.)
Apparently, a lot of have been voting! The tally currently stands at:
Yes (25%)
No (75%)
Total Responses: 5056
02/15/2009 @ 5:37 PST
But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them,”Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.” Mark 10:14
With that being said I will assure all of you we will never give up. We won’t stand down and we will stay strong in our faith. We will not hide the young from the truth as you are determined to pursue such a radical idea. We will continue to make his word known and we will express our strong belief that he is the one the only God and that all must beleive to receive the gift of eternal life and escape eternal burning in hell. Stifle yourself foolish men or behold the wrath of God upon you!
Hmmm… what’s the phrase? ummmm.
Oh yeah.
Fuck you Sadie.
Sadie which one is the one true god?
No one is talking about depriving children of the truth, only your religious shite. Even then, no one is going to deprive you of your right to educate your own children in your religion. We simply intend to enforce the constitutional principle that no religion has the right to use the power of the state to push their beliefs. Do you understand the difference?
If you don’t think it’s wrong to preach to other people’s children without their parents’ consent, would you be equally accepting of an atheist trying to convince your children that God is imaginary?
Jebus, a godbot with an imaginary deity thinks quoting the ficion bible means anything to us. What an ignoramous.
Aitheism is a religion and is preached everyday in the schools. In that they present Evolution as a fact that is designed to disproove the bible. They don’t just present it they inforce it. Children look up to their teachers and when the state tells teachers they have to state their corriculum as true( even though when examined closely Evolution has no actual fact in it. Where did the big bang come from? How did that one cell come to be? There is no beginning in evolution because the ones who invented it don’t like beginnings because they knwo the beginning was God. Just because scientists state it as true doesn’t make it so. Start thinking with reason instead of fear you foolish athiest. Remember the Science Revolution where people started looking at what scientists say objectivly and thinking about it for themselves.) kids are going to believe them inevitably. So yes you are in favor of removing God becuase you are ok with the state using power to inforce the deniance of the facts of the bible using a fancy lie called Evolution that young children will believe because their teachers told them so.
Aitheism is a religion and is preached everyday in the schools. In that they present Evolution as a fact that is designed to disproove the bible. They don’t just present it they inforce it. Children look up to their teachers and when the state tells teachers they have to state their corriculum as true( even though when examined closely Evolution has no actual fact in it. Where did the big bang come from? How did that one cell come to be? There is no beginning in evolution because the ones who invented it don’t like beginnings because they knwo the beginning was God. Just because scientists state it as true doesn’t make it so. Start thinking with reason instead of fear you foolish athiest. Remember the Science Revolution where people started looking at what scientists say objectivly and thinking about it for themselves.) kids are going to believe them inevitably. So yes you are in favor of removing God becuase you are ok with the state using power to inforce the deniance of the facts of the bible using a fancy lie called Evolution that young children will believe because their teachers told them so.
You only need to post each response once, you know.
Horseshit. What are atheism’s holy texts? Where is the clergy? What are its holidays? What do they worship?
Seriously, by what twisted definition of “religion” does atheism qualify but not, say, football.
Dear, evolution is a fact, but it’s not designed to disprove the Bible any more than heliocentrism. Many Christians accept both evolution and the Bible.
I might add, though, that the Bible does quite a decent job of discrediting itself all on its own.
Oh really? Just what is the extent of your scientific education? How do you explain the Robertsonian fusion in chromosome 2? How do you explain the ERVs we share with apes? How do you explain the morphological and genetic nested heirarchies?
That’s the Big Bang theory, not evolution. The origins of the Big Bang are not taught in high school, because that’s a question on the very edge of theoretical physics.
Theories of abiogenesis, again, are on the cutting edge of biological science. Great strides have been made on understanding the origin of biological chirality. We have also been able to create synthetic viruses and simple self-replicators in the lab. All this is light-years ahead of any religious explanation, none of which have yielded any applications or avenues of research in their multi-thousand-year histories.
However, you need to understand that evolution would be valid even if some god or other literally miracled the first cells into existence. It would remain the most valid, most strongly evidenced explanation for the diversity of life on earth.
Actually, questions like the beginning of life and the beginning of the universe don’t have firm scientific answers because they’re fucking hard questions. You’ve got it completely backwards- invoking God is the cop-out; it helps ignorant or intellectually lazy people like you feel like they have it all figured out without having to do all the heavy lifting.
Of course not. 150 years of multiple lines of converging evidence make it so. I suggest you familiarize yourself with it before you go arguing with your betters.
Does that mean that I’m athier than athy, or does it just mean you’re dyslexic?
No, I don’t remember the Science Revolution, where people everywhere suddenly started thinking objectively about science for themselves. You must be reading some rather “different” history books. When did this supposedly take place?
I’m in favour of barring the state from enforcing religion. So is our constitution. I don’t believe it’s possible to remove God from schools any more than it’s possible to remove dragons and unicorns. You, on the other hand, favour pushing religion in schools because no Abrahamic religion I know of would seriously worry about any mortal expelling God from any place whatsoever.
I am not at all opposed to teaching the facts of the Bible, insofar as they are facts. What you’re probably talking about, though, are ridiculous religious dogmas at odds with what is known about the natural world.
Again, if evolution is a lie, perhaps you’d like to explain the new species we’ve observed evolving both in the field and in the lab?
Sadie. Please shut the hell up. You’re lying and you’re ignorant. Plus your spelling is horrible.Keep your superstions out of public school. Your bullshit hell doesn’t impress anyone here. We have no intention of letting your mythology poison young minds. Your mind is a good example of what a toxic cesspool religion can turn a mind into.
All that remains now is for Sadie to reveal that she “was once an atheist”.
Sadie, that screed of painfully ignorant nonsense you are obviously regurgitating from your pastor only needed to be posted once to get your message of ignorance across.