A student, Brandon Creasy, submitted an opinion piece on evolution to the school news magazine. The principal, Kevin Bezy, rejected it and has held up publication of the magazine until it is revised. Bezy explains himself, and it’s the usual kind of weasely nonsense that makes me very snarly in the morning.
When asked his opinion of evolution and how that may have factored into the situation, Bezy declined to discuss his feelings on the theory. He said he considers that irrelevant to the matter, believing it important to remain unbiased when making decisions.
I don’t give a good greasy squirt of slimy spit for Mr Bezy’s “feelings” about evolution. He is supposed to be a professional educator, and the unbiased status of the theory is that it is the only legitimate explanation for life’s diversity; no other explanation, including the page and a half of poetic metaphor and myth included in the book of Genesis, is even close. When censoring well-supported scientific ideas, hiding behind a false objectivity is not an option.
“The law gives the principal the responsibility to edit publications of the school,” Bezy said. “It is an important responsibility because the principal has to look out for the rights and sensitivities of all students, especially in a diverse and multicultural area.”
Man, this guy sounds like a pompous gasbag. All this talk about sensitivities and multiculturalism isn’t being used to promote a diversity of ideas: he’s using it to squelch the expression of any opinions that differ from the flavorless, mealy pablum to which he wants the cultural environment of the school reduced. A “diverse and multicultural area” should be one where there is an outspoken clash of ideas, not one where disagreement is silenced.
Continuing, he said of the piece: “It didn’t present the theory with a sensitivity for those who hold other theories. The teacher of the student was asked to take out language that stated his theory is the only theory.”
Other theories? Like what? Name some, Mr Bezy. Show us the courage of your convictions that these other ideas are worth abusing science for. Does it include young earth creationism, the claim that the universe didn’t exist prior to the time a few Hebrew patriarchs started scribbling down notes about how to control their tribes? Or perhaps you are thinking of Intelligent Design creationism, a fatuous pretense to scientific thinking that has no evidence, no research program, and no rationale other than that they want to put a false front over some silly old myths?
So far, evolution is the only theory deserving of the name … unless Bezy is confusing the scientific meaning of the word “theory” with the colloquial, and thinks it is equivalent to “brain fart”. It is not the business of a public school to inundate students with a variety of brain farts — they get enough of those in church on Sunday — but to provide a disciplined introduction to the best scholarly ideas. Which of those two alternatives is the mission of the Gereau Center?
Faith > Reason
If I was Brandon I would add an addendum to the piece, introducing it as the article that the principal found too shocking to allow students to read, then photocopy it and hand it out himself. The spice of controversy would probably make more people read it than otherwise normally would have.
Im more and more inclined to think that the problem with educating people,and esp children,in your country,is the educators…
Your teachers are not up to the job,they do not have enough backup,not enough knowledge of the topic theyre meant to teach,they have to constantly defend themselves against christofascist parents,the whole teaching experience seems to be like treading in a minefield…
And this sensitivity for other theories bullshit,of course always only ever applies to the christofascists,never the other way round..
*Sigh*
Oh no. Not again.
The essay is available to read at http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/187410
There is nothing even remotely offensive in Brandons article. Its fine. Its a nice little essay.
Unless you are a Creationist.
It’s an OPINION piece. The principal shouldn’t be concerned about bias when someone is expressing their personal views which are biased by definition.
Oh, and:
Faith = No Reason
Hmmm … and a few days back I was reading how the US is still trailing behind many nations in science and math education. I guess we can thank Mr Bezy for his contribution. What an asshole.
The sip of coffee at the very moment of reading that line was not very pleasant.
I wonder what his take on opinion pieces on Germ Theory and Heliocentrism would be handled?
Ahhhh! It is this sort of sentiment that drives me the most crazy. I know I’m sick of being told to be ‘nice and corteous’ to those who believe in magical fairies and a young earth, when it’s clear that they are just sorely misinformed. I feel for this kid. At his age especially he should not be having his freedom of expression and his obviously intelligent mind squashed like this. Brain farts indeed, PZ. That seems to be all they’re serving up these days.
It’s the old “Politically Correct” game. Yammer on and on about your own point of view. Then when someone else speaks up, declare him “uncivil” or “confrontational” or “inappropriate for the audience” and shut him down.
Best not to argue a case by its merits when you’ve got the political muscle to crush him on the bylaws.
What’s the old lawyer’s saw?
If the law is on your side, pound on the law.
If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts.
If neither is on your side, pound on the table.
That table is getting a beating.
When I was teaching outdoor education, taking kids on nature hikes, I had my supervisor ask me if I “could tone it down with the evolution”.
Weak-kneed fool had gotten some complaints…
Of course the answer was NO, nothing else, just no.
GIL: Faith is the abandonment of reason, voluntary blindness.
I’ve never been a fan of the “politically correct” movement, since it can used as above to keep science out of discussions because “somebody might feel bad” if faced with the evidence. The schools and the teachers seem to worry more about political correctness that in teaching their subjects. They need to reverse that.
If people choose faith over reason – what business is it of others to impose their reason over faith in others?
Wait! wait! wait!!
Yes, we are teaching the First Amendment by censoring the article. Tool.
I’m glad he’s resubmitting it without changes. Wow if it was me, I would have posted the article online then made a stinging rebuttal on the principal’s actions and let it spread like wild fire.
He’s got a point. I’m still in therapy because my eighth grade science teacher wasn’t sensitive enough to my AngelsPushingThingsDownianity when talking about gravity.
Ahh, I see your problem. You have a bias in favour of things that are true. Mr. Bezy is clearly practising Oprahism and rejects inquiries into the truth of statements as rude and discriminatory. It is a deeply held conviction of Oprahists that the only the valid basis to judge statements is whether people feel good about them. How dare you be so intolerant as to criticise him for this.
The above was not meant sincerely.
This is sad. A high school principal who is within few hours drive of many great universities…Virginia Tech, UVA for example…is spouting this nonsense. I guess he doesn’t want his students to attend these universities, but instead send them to Bob Jones.
As a HS Biology teacher, I have to deal with this type of BS all the time. Unfortunately, there are a number of religiofascists that have made their way in education and try to bring in religion in subtle ways. Even more common, is all the teachers and admin that never want to ‘offend’ especially the religious. It’s education that is losing.
I think it’s worth noting that the opinion piece itself is very impressive for a high school student. Most college seniors couldn’t do as well.
GIL, faith without evidence is delusion, mental illness. People with delusions must give way to those who use reason. After all reason >>>>>>>>>>delusions
When can we arrange for your stoning? I’m sure your have broken one of your loving imaginary deity’s laws. So you need to be punished.
GodIsLove, you’ve already been outed as a parodist. You are therefore no longer funny. So stop it.
Damned activist judges stopped them teaching this. At least teachers have the freedom to teach the entirely different theory of intelligent falling in it’s place
This needs a letter-writing campaign. Science isn’t fucking democratic.
What sort of school is this anyway? A google search found it easily, but none of the information I found on the Gereau Center’s web site provided a clear statement that it was part of the public education system. I did find links to the VA state dept. of education but nothing definitive. If someone else wants to give it a try take a look at Gereau Center and see what you can figure out.
As far as I can tell it looks like it’s part of the public school system in which case the principal needs to find another job as he has failed to demonstrate rudimentary understanding of basic concepts in Science.
You were at all nerdy as a kid and grew up with any doubt about this? O.o
If you go to the link in #5, not only can you read the essay, but you can comment on it, too!
The essay is good, but not great. For a HS newspaper, I suppose that’s good enough.
If the principal had said “Eveolution is the only theory that we should be teaching, but I am trying to find a way to get this published without a bunch of parents making my life a living hell” I might have some sympathy for him if not respect. But it doesn’t seem that way. I think he is one of them. How do these people get in this position anyway?
Atheism kills:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=81459
It is an important responsibility because the principal has to look out for the rights and sensitivities of all students,
Lets remove any discussion of the holocaust and moon landings, we wouldn’t want to upset any of those deniers.
Geography has to go, there maybe a few flatlanders in the class.
Pi being 3.14 contradicts with the bible, so no arithmetic
You know what……everyone just put their heads on their desks. Lets just sit here quietly for 12 years.
Um.
…Roll-a-Toke College,… (Sorry – couldn’t resist.)
ahh the hypocrisy and irony. IDiots love to talk about how their academic freedom is surpressed, but when given the chance, they gladly censor others’ opinions
Good question. In Austria they’re political appointees; they need to be teachers, but that’s it with the qualifications. On average, they’re bad…
godislove
Christianity kills, ever hear of Salem, or the inquisition, or the crusades?
Reason leads to 20 July, 1969.
Faith leads to 11 September, 2001.
That’s why it is the business of everyone to impose reason over faith.
I have faith that you’ll be able to reason out a few business reasons.
“The cook book says to add two eggs and a cup of flower.”
“But I have FAITH in three eggs!”
“The doctor said to take your insulin shot twice a day.”
“But I have FAITH that I’ll get better.”
“Shouldn’t you buckle your seatbelt?”
“Nah. I’ve got FAITH. Never been in a car accident yet, and my Guardian Angel will always protect me.”
“You shouldn’t beat your wife.”
“WHY ARE YOU INFRINGING ON MY RELIGION!”
:-p
LOL! Exactly. :-D
What a bozo. :-D
This sounds a lot like the high schools my husband and I went to in Louisiana. The principal at my husband’s high school was apparently a deacon at this huge crazy baptist church in the town where my husband grew up. They taught evolution by saying it was a take home chapter that they could read if they wanted to, but weren’t required to. (I later student taught at this school and they had a church sponsered rally that was totally shoving religion down the throats of the students. I had to leave since I didn’t want to be party to that nonsense).
My biology teacher said she wasn’t going to teach evolution because she didn’t believe in it. This inspired both me and my husband to read about it on our own since no one was going to teach it to us. As a result, we are both persuing our PhDs now in the evolutionary sciences. So, hopefully this unfortunate situation might make kids at this school curious and read about evolution and we might have future scientists come out of it. But, this may all be wishful thinking.
No one died converting from atheism to Christianity.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=81459
the entirely different theory of intelligent falling
That’s just a heretical political hack! IFists are as bad as gravitists, muslims, and Girl Scouts! They will all burn when pushed deep into the Lake of Nawties!
What about Brandon’s Constititional right to free speech and the Constititional right to freedom of the press? The principal is saying that a school newspaper does not participate in the latter right. No where does the Constitution extend a right to the protection of one’s “sensitivities”!
As a former editor of the science section in my university paper, I would have edited the piece because it’s got some issues. It’s not really opinion (because it is about a fact), it’s not really news (because it’s nothing new), and it’s written terribly colloquially. It’s more of an casual essay (or blog post) than a newspaper article. It would be really improved by some sort of topical lead in (“High school principal censors evolution article…now here’s why that’s wrong).
That being said, obviously the principal is way out of line here. That poor kid will hopefully learn that someday, he’ll write for someone that actually protects their writers.
Well folks,,,
I used to work for Kevin Bezy in Franklin County, Virginia. I like Kevin Bezy and I know exactly what decision he was forced to make. By allowing this student to publish this well written and well thought opinion, he was going to become the point man for every creationist wing nut in the county. There are many.
By all accounts, my interactions teaching Biology under Kevin’s supervision, never ever resulted in any kind of censorship or discussion about topics I approached in my classroom. If a kid wouldn’t learn the content, he backed me up.
I will have to say, there’s a certain amount self-censorship involved here.I always pulled my punches in biology instruction because I knew I just didn’t have the stomach to constantly fight with the community. Kevin should have let the kid publish his work and told anyone with a beef that it was the kid’s right to publish it. No doubt the rest of the year he’ll be dealing with the fall out from both sides..
I will be sure to let him know exactly where this is going.
How is that even possible!?! Was it a private school?
ugh
so tiring.
‘No one died converting from atheism to Christianity.’
Maybe not physically…but mentally tis a lethal mistake…
Posted by: Mike | December 12, 2008 9:41 AM
If I was Brandon I would add an addendum to the piece, introducing it as the article that the principal found too shocking to allow students to read, then photocopy it and hand it out himself. The spice of controversy would probably make more people read it than otherwise normally would have.
Since the fateful Hazelwood decision in the ’80s, and contrary to the famous dictum proclaimed from the Supreme Court bench only two generations prior, civil rights have indeed been construed to end at the school-house door…For such insubordination and insolence, the student would likely have found himself suspended, perhaps even expelled if the administrator was indeed as much a dick as he seems. Schooling in Murka is a matter of instilling in students the attitudes of subservience, helplessness, and obedience commensurate with consumerism; forget any critical apprehension of the world.
Freedom of religion means you are free to believe any stupid crap you can imagine with regard to the origins of life, the universe, and everything. It does NOT mean that your ‘faith,’ if expressed aloud to advance or buttress claims of legitimacy–and especially if they are expressed as ‘facts’ to be considered in a school curriculum–cannot or should not be doubted, or rebutted, or rebuked, or attacked when what it proposes fails to meet universal standards of rational thought, study, evaluation and evidence.
strangest brew: Anthony Flew would disagree with you.
“It didn’t present the theory with a sensitivity for those who hold other theories.”
He must mean the other hypotheses, guesses, and assorted mental ejaculations. The only “sensitivity” that should be displayed is a sensitivity for the volume and quality of the evidence supporting or refuting any of them.
BTW, still suffering the “damaging” effects of my undergrad biology prof’s failure to be sensitive to spontaneous generation theory. It was an outrage, I tell you, an OUTRAGE…
Also loved the principal’s Orwellian doublespeak…whose rights would have been violated by publishing the article? There is no Constitutional right to not be exposed to scientific theories that oppose your religious beliefs. Free speech, however, is a right…except maybe in high schools with fundie principals.
Seems that he’s failing to uphold his duties as an educator. Yes I can only assume that it would have brought the morons out of the woodwork but so what? Those positions are always dealing with outraged parents for one reason or another. Why do the creationists get a pass?
Well being a deacon is pretty much a weekend hobby, right? There’s probably no law against secretaries of stamp-collecting clubs being principals either.
My father was a public-school superintendent for several decades.* His philosophy was that an administrator’s job was to make schools a place where “teachers can teach and students can learn.” This meant acting as a facilitator – not usurping the teacher’s role or interfering with the educational process.
Well, its (semi-)’hidden curriculum’ is certainly preparing them for today’s workplace.;)
*In my region, at least, these are not political appointees but professionals with higher degrees (for supts, usually PhDs – though for some older people these are from EdD diploma mills) in educational administration and several years of experience as teachers and administrators. In the case of this school, I have no idea.
I have faith that when I jump off a tall building, angels shall carry me gently to the ground. So you all can keep your THEORY of “gravity” and your “reason” based on observation and sound, time proven methods. My faith is greater than your reason and so I have a tall building to go jump off of.
If I never post a comment here again, it won’t be because I’m a stain on the ground. I just want to make that clear right now. And any future news articles mentioning me and a deadly plummet will only be because of the bias of the liberal elite “gotcha” media.
Interesting link.
First off, I have to say that if, by reading a single book, a person commits suicide, then they were already a ticking bomb waiting to go off. It was just a matter of how or when.
There is a VERY interesting quote in that article though…
So this guy is admitting, then, that Christians should be held responsible for a good many suicides of homosexuals, and for their persecution… Let’s face it here, the Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwells have been pretty clear over the last 30 years.
Godislove
I know I shouldn’t feed the trolls so this will be my last reply.
People DO NOT kill themselves because of stuff like that. People kill themselves because of chemical imbalances.
I love the fact that when I start to read articles like this, the great PZ gets to explode in a manner so viciously eloquent that it manages to deflate my own anger.
Take comfort in the fact that when this Creasy chap eventually gets fired that his prospective employers will Google him and discover PZ’s opinion “Man, this guy sounds like a pompous gasbag” and hopefully send him packing.
Streisand Effect, anyone?
The Roanoke Times features the full text of Brendan’s essay — so instead of stifling the publication of the essay, it has been bumped to be read by a much larger audience.
Way to go Bezy.
Scientologist trolls in 10, 9…
So, can we have all the Trinitarians insist that math classes be altered to respect the deeply held belief that 1 is 3? Just because your cold, hard-heated, inhuman, mechanical _arithmetic_ insists that 1=1, that’s no reason to infringe on our right to believe whatever we want regardless of fact, reason or truth!
Not a bad piece for a school student. I can see it’s phrased to flush creationists out of the undergrowth. But why not? Start a debate in a school mag – debating was a nice learning exercise when I was a kid.
I hope the kid’s grades don’t suffer.
O/T
If you’re going to fraud, do it for an amount that’s worth it : how about $50 billion, like Bernard Madoff !
@43
How is turning the whole thing into a media event a better way to go for him? He should have just published it and it would have been done. The guy needs to get some balls. BTW I think it is part of his job as an educator to fight against the community backlash as I am sure the community at large is not qualified to teach dick and shouldn’t be making decisions about what can be published in a damn school newspaper.
“The Roanoke Times features the full text of Brendan’s essay”
Oops. Looks like Bezy is going to get far more heat than the heat he was trying to avoid.
So Mike Scott,
You are saying Bezy violated a student’s rights (and maybe the school newspaper’s rights) in a short-sighted attempt to minimize his work stress?
(I understand you are not condoning his actions.)
I love this part:
I doubt that was part of his plan. :)
Posted by: GodIsLove | December 12, 2008 10:18 AM
No one died converting from atheism to Christianity.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com….
Home schooled much? Ever hear of the Inquisition? Well, they did’t die from converting. They died from the fire and the rack, and the pincers, or on the points of spears or swords. Mainly for NOT converting to Xianity.
as for the kid who killed himself? he had ptsd. he’d been in iraq, was prob’ly a baby-killer (you gotta steel yourself to that; look at John McCain), and got no help on his return and, when presented with evidence–not dreams, not epiphanies, not commandments, but evidence–of his own credulousness, couldn’t handle the dissonance.
You KNOW he wasn’t gonna get any help in the matter from his father who now complains that “atheism” killed his son.
48*
“strangest brew: Anthony Flew would disagree with you.”
Anthony Flew ended up disagreeing with himself…after admitting he got mislead by a god bot with an agenda about spurious concerns about Evolution…
Flew is used as an example by every ID/Creationist clone …pity being they did not and do not read the whole story about the debacle..
Flew has defended himself against this criticism by releasing a statement through his publisher and more recently in a letter to UCCF in June 2008, reconfirming the truth of the statement released in 2005 by his publisher.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Flew..
“Those rumours…(that I am now theist) speak false. I remain still what I have been now for over fifty years, a negative atheist
Tomás de Torquemada would like to have a word with you.
GIL: Perhaps you’ve never been to Iran. Conversion to Christianity there can earn you a death sentence, most especially if you are converting from Islam.
I love the second sentence in the students essay:
Feed that one to a creotard and watch their eyes cross! :D
In response,,, do I think he did to reduce work stress…YES. and he will soon realize the irony in that decision. Franklin County’s claim to fame is being the moonshine capital of the world. Every morning that I drove to school to teach, I met a car with a bumper sticker that said “Evolution is a Lie”.
In late 2006, Flew joined 11 other academics in urging the British government to teach intelligent design in the state schools.
GIL, you mean the theory of religious origins? Which should only be in a comparative religion or mythology class.
Science should be the only subject taught in science class. You know that. The only scientific theories for origins is abiogenesis and evolution.
By the way, student freedom of expression isn’t exactly secure in New England schools, either. This is from just last year:
“Play About Iraq War Divides a Connecticut Town”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/24/nyregion/24drama.html
Posted by: GodIsLove | December 12, 2008 10:56 AM
In late 2006, Flew joined 11 other academics in urging the British government to teach intelligent design in the state schools.
Yeah, an George Bush just renounced the literalist interpretation of your bible. What’s your point?
PS. Somebody wanna tell me which html codes DO work?
Abiogenesis is not a theory Nerd, its a belief system which actively denies God’s role in creation.
must. resist.
George Bush is an atheist. He believes in money and getting into power.
as I mentioned in a comment somewhere above, since the Hazelwood decision by the SCOTUS in (1984?), the former claim that civil rights do not end at the schoolhouse door has been rescinded. It’s a nation-wide and universal problem.
OK GIL, then cite the scientific literature to show another theory of origin.
By the way, you are way behind in presenting your physical evidence for your imaginary deity that can pass muster with scientists, magicians, and professional debunkers. Time the get started. We are eagerly awaiting your evidence so we can believe. Until then, you are a liar and bullshitter. Welcome to science.
Ken Ham is an atheist. He believes in money and getting into power.
FACT: There will NEVER be a scientific theory on the origin of life. It was a supernatural event. Thats why the atheists cant find anything.
Better trolls please.
PZ:
This, I think, is the whole point. Those poeple who would seek to hang a Christian identity on our nation – most prevalently the religious right – are the first to speak out against how ineffective government programs like education are, though their inefficiency is largely due to idiots of their own ilk sabotagiong it from the inside.
It’s kind of like their “government is the problem” line, especially considering how they’ve treated the country they were trusted with running for the last eight years.
It looks to me a bit too much like a deliberate dilution of public systems, be they education or some other social system supported by the government, in order to influence and/or force us as a nation to depend upon the private sector for those services. (Markets that, coincidentally, are usually dominated by their campaign contributors and other friends.) And we all see how great that worked out for the financial markets, right?
This country seriously needs to rescue its education system, but not from the religious right, or even shitty teachers like this one. It needs to be saved from the corrosive attitude this country has taken in the past decade – driven mostly by Rovian political scare tactics and the demonization of the “elite” in politics. It is an attitude that follows quite closely the “jock” mentality from back in high school, and one that shuns anything and anyone that abandons the party line as defined by the White House.
Until we as a country (and I mean individual Americans) realize that the opinion of the majority cannot be allowed to overrule proven science, we will make no progress in the whole evolution/creation debate. Yes, this is a democracy. No, that does not mean that scientific standards should be tailored to the local electorate. It might make some people feel a little less empowered to know that you can’t vote God back into the kind of sway he once held over the nations of the world, but not liking that fact doesn’t make it any less true. Until modern religion finds a way to break its tradition of inflexibility and claimed infallibility, it will continue to kick, scream, and lose ground to science until the dam finally does break.
Because if there is one thing that is generally true about the human race as a whole, it is that we are a pragmatic race. Someone may honestly, genuinely believe that the bible is true, but when it comes time for major surgery, it isn’t very hard to convince them that science can help them. And as our civilization goes on (if we don’t manage to end it violently somehow before this can happen), I think that science will eventually prevail over superstition. To me, it’s simple math. We have had organized religion for thousands of years now, and it has been the largest roadblock to our search for our origins because it already had the answer. It effectively stifled or controlled all scientific knowledge in Europe until only a few hundred years ago, but in that short time, we’ve figured out so much that it has allowed us to explore every planet in the solar system, put in orbit myriad satellites that perform innumerable tasks to make our life easier on a day-to-day basis, and even send a spacecraft completely out of our entire solar system.
If we can do all that in a few hundred years, with religion starting out holding all the reins, I think we’ll be just fine in the future. Though getting there does seem to be quite a pain in the ass – I mean, fighting the good fight is noble and wonderful and everything, but do so many people really have to make us drag them into the new century?
“In late 2006, Flew joined 11 other academics in urging the British government to teach intelligent design in the state schools.”
This year the Royal Society sacked its education director, Professor Michael Reiss. The call, backed by other senior Royal Society fellows.
It follows Reiss’s controversial claim that creationism be taught in schools’ science classes.
You see senior Scientists realise that Science and religion will not an homogeneous mix do make…
Live with it!
So…Flew is a confused and rather dazzled old fart…he got tricked by a so called friend…and made a fool of himself…he has basically recanted on his recantation…
At the moment he is Atheist…next week he might be an Aristotelian Deist…that is what old age does…makes you forget where you left your teeth!
I wonder how the principal would feel if we tried to get some other “theories” published. Let’s give him the origin stories from the Eddas, or the Popal Vuh. Or the FSM. Why not teach that this Jesus fellow rose from the dead to prey upon the living as a vampire (a zombie would rise faster, a vampire has to transform over a few days). It would explain how he could roll away the stone and get into locked rooms, as well as the fetish for drinking blood. Heck, aren’t all these god-stories only theories, and we must be senstive to those with alternative theories, right pastor-I mean-principal?
FACT, GIL, you god doesn’t exist. It is in your imagination only. Just between your ears. The bible is a terrible book written by fallible men and is not holy, just old.
Science will help mankind progress. Religion holds mankind back. Go back to your cave. The world will progress without religion.
There is a petition to “save” the school magazine that published the article, if you want some fun. It only takes a minute and they need lots more signatures…..
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/help-us-save-in-the-groove-news-magazine
FACT: There will NEVER be a religious theory on the origin of life. They hypothesize a supernatural event. Thats why theists can’t find anything.
OK GIL, then cite the scientific literature to show another theory of origin.
Better yet, show us an article that states that abiogensis isn’t a theory. You don’t get to tell us how to do our jobs.
If you and I are having a conversation about the Bible, I don’t get to assert that Bartholomew wasn’t an apostle. At least not if I expect you to take anything I subsequently have to say seriously. If I produce a piece of biblical scholarship that calls Bartholomew into question, that’s one thing. But a simple assertion without basis? Come on… You’re just going to dismiss me as silly.
Similarly, you don’t get to redefine OUR theories for us unless you produce some actual work to back it up. An assertion from an AIG webpage or something like that isn’t going to cut it.
Sorry, woody – I had missed your post. I really wanted, first, to give the Wilton kids/story some publicity, and, second, to counter preemptively any notion that I’m painting New England as some sort of educational utopia (although it is often strange to read these attacks on the “American” educational system, as though this were monolithic – challenges to evolution in New England public schools would be highly unusual, indeed).
Funny how we both also talked about the hidden curriculum. :)
“Hmmmm,” I thought, “maybe Mr. Bezy has some valid concerns. I mean, perhaps this essay got too in-your-face about religion or something. So let’s read it and see.”
[essay read]
“Hmmmm,” I thought, “that didn’t seem terribly confrontational. But then, I tend to speed-read sometimes. Maybe I missed some key words that could offend others. Let me do a search on his essay, and see if I get a hit on some keywords.”
Search for “religion” — result: no hits
Search for “Christ” — result: no hits
Search for “Jew” — result: no hits
Search for “Muslim” — result: no hits
Search for “Hindu” — result: no hits
Search for “church” — result: no hits
“Mr. Bezy,” I concluded, “you are an arrogant, self-righteous pusbag. I hope you lose your job.”
‘FACT: There will NEVER be a scientific theory on the origin of life. It was a supernatural event. Thats why the atheists cant find anything.’
There already is numb nuts…it is called abiogenesis…it is a theory…some support it some don’t so what…
‘It was a supernatural event’
Evidence please?
‘Thats why the atheists cant find anything.’
Atheists cannot be bothered to look for mythological gobblygook…but they might be persuaded to look for likely precursors to life…
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081016141411.htm
Posted by: Josh | December 12, 2008 11:19 AM
But that violates the Single Standard fallacy of Creationist logic! You’re expecting him to live up to his own expectations of evidentiary proof? That’s just crazy…
Do us all a favor, and act like you really think like that next time you get and infection.
Or better yet, try praying your posts into blogs instead of typing them on your computer, which is a product of reason.
FACT: There will NEVER be a scientific theory on the origin of life. It was a supernatural event. Thats why the atheists cant find anything.
A. The atheists aren’t looking; scientists are. Do try to distinguish between the two.
B. See previous comment.
C. Have any evidence for your assertion that it was supernatural? We’ll settle for just ONE piece. Got one?
There are other theories though … They have all been thoroughly discredited by the evidence, but that doesn’t mean that they loos their status does it. Just like an ex president is still mister president a dead theory is still a theory.
Interesting.
I just finished reading the student’s piece. It isn’t exactly a great article (too loose and without a proper line in its writing), but decent. And yes, it sounds like an opinionated piece. But, unlike other cases where people cannot back up their opinions, in this case, the student can.
Which makes the article itself more a list of facts than an opinion.
So yeah, no doubt he will offend the creationists in his area, but tough luck: he is stating the facts and the truth can be hard. Bezy is definitely wrong here.
The student might have done a better piece though by mentioning some of the ‘alternatives’ and then explaining why these aren’t alternatives at all, but that’s just me.
If that > sign is supposed to represent an open mouth, then I concur. Reason eats faith.
Brendan White
Actually, yes, it does… scientifically, once a theory is thoroughly discredited or proven false, it is no longer considered a valid scientific theory.
Theories are not ex-presidents.
I can live with that. I don’t know if you can.
Andrés Diplotti@:#100
NOM NOM NOM NOM nOM
Since I assume you are an organism born on this planet, and that you are a human being, rather than some clone…
Yow! Huge slam on clones. Perhaps the principle thought he might be offending the parthanogeneticly inclined by claiming they’re not human beings?
Folks, GIL is quoting World Net Daily. That automatically disqualifies his argument, just as if he were quoting Weekly World News. Do not feed the troll.
This is in Roanoak Virginia. It’s not West Virginia but it is geographically and spiritually close. This is where Borat sang at the rodeo folks. It is an Application town built on railway and highway conjunctions.
There are many modern people living there with the full range of opinion on the origin of life and there are some who “cling to their guns and religion” We could safely say the majority there cling to their guns and religion. Those are angry and confused and scared from the most recent elections.
I’ve read letters to the editor in Roanoke that are the opposite of this kids piece. Less intelligent and more insulting, and arguing for biblical literalism being the only way to understand the world. We all know there is usually a belligerent threat of violence behind so many declarations of faith like that. A dare to try and prove the author wrong. They are seen as fit for the opinion page there.
If the principal’s first job is to protect his students physical safety I can actually agree with this principal’s decision. This student is going against the mainstream of thought in the area. Many who would defend the mainstream opinion believe in it to the point of violence, especially if it concerns education. The school book violence in Charleston WV is only a 100 or so miles away and 35 years ago. The pious used dynamite, shotguns, rifles, and pistols against the schools and the children in them in that conflagration of stupid.
Sadly I’m not sure if the principal did this for his student’s physical safety. In the end of the article they turn this into a civics lesson but I worry about that lesson. Does teaching “…so that they understand that a principal has the authority to pull any magazine article from a school publication.” sound too much like the authoritarian line that the principle -should- have the power and we should never be questioned on it?
That said I read the student’s essay and I agree with it. It does need to be said and said directly to the people who can’t seem understand it. He had a good point and a good way to explain it with the variations anyone can see in their own family. The kid just needs to watch his back very carefully.
When I read PZ’s comments, my first thought was which hick state is this school in. I looked it up. The school is in the hick state of Virginia, not far from the hick state of North Carolina.
The principal, Kevin Bezy, needs to be publicly ridiculed, he needs to be fired, and he must never be allowed to come anywhere near any school ever again.
I believe that God doesn’t exist. Why? It’s pretty obvious. Satan wrote the Bible as a prank to torment all of mankind. He wants all of us to live in discord, and it appears to be working. GodIsLove, if you have proof that I’m wrong, please share, because I hate being duped by Satan. He’s a crafty bastard. I mean, come on, why else would he put so many contradictions and inconsistencies in there? To make us fight amongst ourselves, that’s why. Why would he fill it with weird stuff, like people who live to be nine hundred years old, a talking snake, a great flood, etc. etc. Very tricky of ol’ Satan. But I’m on to him.
What about Brandon’s Constititional right to free speech and the Constititional right to freedom of the press? The principal is saying that a school newspaper does not participate in the latter right. No where does the Constitution extend a right to the protection of one’s “sensitivities”!
Let me start this by saying I disagree with the administrator 100%, I also think that, for a 10th grade student, the opinion piece is quite well written and should be published, as is.
The administrator does have the legal right to approve the content of a publication that is part of the educational process. If it isn’t an open forum, but instead a publication created as part of a class that is seen as the school presenting and supporting the points of view presented in the publication, then he does have the duty and right to approve of the content.
Again, I completely disagree with his abuse of that power, but it is legal (assuming this isn’t an open forum).
From the article, “Bezy told him ‘the article sounded angry with the church…'”
Huh? There was one reference to god and none to any church.
Idiot.
Wow–that’s terrible!
I think the biggest problem here in the US is that we have a culture of disrepect. Teachers have so much disrespect to deal with in class that they can’t do their job. Placing blame soley or mostly in Christian parents is bigotry.
The second problem in tenure.
I’m starting to think there should be a fund to which people can contribute to support young people bravely expressing views that are pro-science, atheistic, anti-religion, or secular and are being threatened, harassed, censored, etc. – lacygogreen18 or whatever, the kid who put the cracker-desecration videos on YouTube, Webster Cooke, this student,… Or perhaps just an informational site that can get out information about kids who need support. Does such a thing exist?
I’ll note that the organization that has been consistently fighting for students’ religious rights in the schools is the eeeeevil ACLU (see their “Freedom Files”).
Since when is it the job of an educator to protect students from being shown they are wrong?
*nodding head in sad acknoweldgement*
Airborne…
Do us all a favor, and act like you really think like that next time you get and infection.
Infection, hell. How about the next time it gets hungry? Hey, don’t worry about eating, just have faith that it’ll be taken care of.
GodIsLove wrote Faith > Reason
Perhaps not every religious person wants to throw out reason, but they all think faith is a virtue. Even the most moderate god nut believes there’s nothing wrong with believing in an idea that has no evidence, no matter how idiotic and impossible the idea is.
Of course faith is a mental illness, not a virtue. Faith makes some people dangerous, some people insane, and some people ignorant, or all of the above.
Faith also makes some people more stupid than a dog, which is godislove’s problem.
GodisLove, is your god fairy the same god who would throw anyone who doesn’t believe in it into hell?
GodIsLove, your stupidity and insanity is obvious. I also think you’re a stupid asshole, because you probably do think your invisible friend tortures anyone who isn’t as insane as you are.
@#44 and to agree with #51
It was a public school. The problem is that the guy allowed his weekend hobby to play a big part in his policies at a PUBLIC school. The teachers were pretty much not allowed to teach evolution. Besides, half of them wouldn’t because the majority of them belonged to the same crazy church that he did. The rally I saw while I was student teaching there was sponsered by the big crazy church talking about how Christ’s love can save everyone. I told my supervising teacher I wasn’t going to be party to something that was totally illegal considering it was a PUBLIC school.
Come to think of it now, this school just went into an independent school district that tried to draw the district lines to exclude the poor black neighborhood in the areas. Christianity and it’s love is really shining thru. SO glad I got out of Louisiana.
Matt Heath #17 wrote:
I had to laugh at this, because it so accurately reflects the mindset of people I know who are, not religious, but “spiritual.” A couple days ago we all got into a discussion on religion, and one of my friends was explaining to me that her understanding of God wasn’t “religious” at all: there was nothing human-like about it. God is a Being of Love.
When I tried to explain that, no, that was still both anthropomorphic and literal, and making a category error, she replied with a flowery speech to the effect that we were really in agreement, and there was no conflict at all. It all came down to feelings, and all beliefs on God are right for that person. So neither one of us was wrong, and neither one of us was trying to say the other one was wrong, either.
I said “Well, actually, yes I am. I am trying to say you’re wrong. You’re wrong.”
Laughter ensued. Fortunately. Yes, I was being funny, but oh I am such a badass. Among the Oprahists (I like that term, though I don’t think any of them watch Oprah), what I said was the ultimate taboo. Worse than the “f” word.
I daresay they would be extremely sympathetic to the principal’s appeal to being “sensitive” when dealing with a “diverse and multicultural” group of children: he’s pushing the right liberal-weenie buttons. They have a horror of “dogmatism” — thinking only one way is right. And they have a lamentable tendency to blur the distinction between “allowing” people to believe what they want, and “allowing” people to believe what they want without rebuttal, criticism, or trying to change their mind. They think the second is necessary for the first.
You make it sound as if those are the only two problems, as you’ve defined them.
IMO, you are close with your first paragraph. But you are coming at it from an ass backwards viewpoint. See, the problem is that too many people, many of them parents of school aged children, can’t tell the difference between a legitimate difference of opinion, and disrespect.
Skimming your blog, you appear to be one of them.
The problem isn’t ‘disrespect’ per se, as you imply. People need to learn to disagree with someone respectfully (students, listen up!!), and just as importantly, people need to learn to accept disagreement respectfully (teachers, listen up!!).
As for tenure, it’s not a problem in and of itself. It’s only a problem when you get to a point where the teachers are so burned out from a system that over works, under pays, and treats them like shit, but now they can’t be fired…. Reaping the proverbial whirlwind.
Universities have a tenure systems, and it works fairly well at that level, so clearly the problem is not inherent to tenure.
yawn
States can’t be hicks. Some or even most of their residents can be hicks but entire populations of states or regions of the country are not. Making geographical generalizations shows a lack of critical thinking skills.
I think the biggest problem here in the US is that we have a culture of disrepect. Teachers have so much disrespect to deal with in class that they can’t do their job.
I agree with you here.
Placing blame soley or mostly in Christian parents is bigotry.
I disagree with you here, at least where evolution is concerned. I think it’s accurate to say that certain Christian parents are a huge part of the problem with evolution education in this country. I don’t see how calling them on it is being a bigot. This isn’t about being intolerant of other’s opinions and views. Evolution isn’t an opinion any more than gravity is; continuing to assert that it is just makes people look foolish. The Christian parents who are advocating the teaching of IDC or C in schools as science are acting in a way that hurts American schoolkids and hurts America in general. Not calling them on it is to act against the interests of the greater good.
Godis
lovenon-existent,I suspect this is already an internet law, but in case it isn’t:
Anyone who links to World Net Daily, for any purpose either than ridicule and/or scorn, immediately has lost all credibility and the argument at hand. Their sole role in any further discussion is to be the butt of jokes.
It’s my first time visiting your blog and usually, I don’t comment on blogs that I don’t frequent, however, I couldn’t help from expressing my own opinion on this matter so let me make this an exception and let me apologize in advance if my opinion offends anybody.
If there was any lesson to be learned here, it’s that life isn’t fair and one will just have to deal with it. Though I seriously doubt that an educational institution would want to say that to the press.
In a real newspaper, the exact same thing can happen. Like for example, a writer, working for a certain newspaper, writes an article that would severely damage the said newspapers’ parent company and only major source of income. The editors might be compelled to quell the article. And don’t tell me that if they do, they’re going against the tenets of journalism which is objectivity and neutrality. Given the fact that the article itself involves them or someone closely tied with them means they can’t be neutral about the article. And that only means they can’t touch the article with a 10 foot pole to begin with. And yes, it might not be fair that the said writer will have to find a new job if he wants the said article to be published but that’s how it is.
I have to confess though, the choice of example was quite deliberate. I think there might be another reason behind Bezy’s decision that meets the eye. I have this feeling that Bezy just doesn’t want to publish Creasy’s article because he thinks it sucks in the first place and he doesn’t have the heart to say so. And publishing a bad article on their paper reflects very badly on the school’s ability to teach proper writing and that does make neutrality impossible for Bezy.
At the risk of swerving off topic, let me explain why I think Bezy’s article is bad. To be honest, I’m appalled that Campbell thinks Creasy’s article is even considered worthy of being published in a school’s paper and that Bezy considered it unfit for publication for a different reason altogether. For one, it is highly disorganized and proper structure is one of the first lessons in writing. And also– wait… that isn’t my job, it’s Campbell’s. I agree with what clinteas said in his comment that there’s a serious lack in competent educators in the US. Things like this issue just proves me right unfortunately. Now that’s definitely digression.
Anyway, I do agree that Bezy shouldn’t have the right to suppress opinion, but I think he has very little power to do so in the first place. Sure, he is able to prevent any article from showing up on their school’s paper, but Creasy could simply choose other channels of public expression. Of course, a sub-par piece like Creasy’s wouldn’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell at getting published by a reputable outfit but that Creasy’s problem. Creasy can still try, say, a blog for example. ;) No offense intended to Mr. Myers or to bloggers in general, but you do have to admit, the web is a great way of publishing things nobody else would.
Don’t get me wrong here. I consider censorship to be a big issue, especially when you’re talking about censoring radical views attempting to challenge popular opinion in the pursuit of the truth. And even more so when they’re encapsulated in a work of art. However, Creasy’s essay is far from either and its lack of quality simply makes the act of censorship a moot point. Oh geez. I’ve wasted waaay too much time on this already.
The he should have given the reason for not publishing it that the paper sucked.
He didn’t, and he could have avoided ALL of this publicity.
speaking of sucking, my grammar and sentence structure.
yikes
#121, By hick state I mean any state with a larger than average population of hicks. I define a hick to be anyone who is stupid enough to believe in magical creation. Of course I was not implying the entire population is uneducated, and of course you probably knew I didn’t mean that, but perhaps you enjoy nitpicking and giving people a hard time.
@GodIsLove
Thanks for the link at #28 and #39. What a great article!
I think they missed the point though – the guy was so distraught because everyone he knows had been lying to him all of this life, and his whole sense of self-worth depended on that lie.
When he figured out none of it was true he lost his center. To him the only reason for not killing someone became the social consequences – but that’s because he had been taught his whole life that killing is wrong because the bible says it is wrong, rather than that it is morally wrong in nearly all situations.
This poor guy was so screwed up by religion that when he lost that he was seriously broken. The blame on this is squarely on his family and church for lying to him all of these years, not on Dawkin’s book for revealing the lie.
Feynmaniac at #123:
What gets me about WorldNetDaily is that every time I access the site, I get an ad which is always something to do with weight loss/digestive health. It used to be “Do You Need To Flush 15 Pounds Of Undigested Waste From Your Colon?” This time it came up with an ad for a BMI calculator which was clearly trying to sell “burn fat fast” products. (I put my own height and weight in; it came up with 21.5, which is comfortably within the normal range, though I’d like it to be a bit lower.)
It makes me wonder… do WorldNetDaily expect their readers to be more obese and unhealthy than average?
Btw, by “great article” (#128) I mean it was really interesting to me, not that it was particularly well researched or written. :)
#124
Except that Creasy’s paper is included in that link, and by pre-college standards it’s pretty good. Of course Creasy isn’t going to get published in Discovery Magazine or what have you, but to say that the real reason Creasy’s paper was rejected is because it sucked is Oh So Much wishful thinking on your part. While it may have been rejected because it would have reflected “badly” on the school, the reason is Content not Style.
Walton #129 wrote:
Well, the “Do You Need To Flush 15 Pounds Of Undigested Waste From Your Colon?” ad suggests they might think their readers, like their writers, are really, really full of shit.
No, just more insecure and gullible than average.
Making geographical generalizations shows a lack of critical thinking skills.
Even ones about France?
Damn. *pouts, ears even droopier than usual*
[blockquote]No one died converting from atheism to Christianity.[/blockquote]
botched baptism drownings??
jaybz #124 wrote:
Not very plausible. Teachers and principals are seldom shy or hesitant to tell students that their work is not up to standard. That’s their job, and they do it all the time. Nor are they usually at a loss on specific suggestions for improvement. The principal is not Creasy’s grandmother, mindful of a duty to dish out the unconditional love.
Apparently, the principal told the student what he needed to do to “fix” the opinion piece. According to the article, “The teacher of the student was asked to take out language that stated his theory is the only theory.”
No I don’t enjoy nitpicking (I do however enjoy giving people a hard time). This is not nitpicking, it’s correcting an incorrect stereotype. You can defend that stance by claiming what you did if it makes you feel better but it’s still an ignorant and uninformed stance to take. I get annoyed by the constant repetition of the idea that if you live in the south that you are a sister marrying, moonshine making, assbackwards, bible-beating redneck who wouldn’t know a science book if your sister-wife smacked you up side the head with it.
Then you’ll probably need to call every state a hick state if that is the factor from which you determine hickness.
If you want to call Creationists wrong because of what the believe then fine, I’m right there with you. reinforcing false stereotypes does nothing but hurt your argument.
Whatever Kevin Bezy himself believes, he is indeed surrounded by an impressive backwater of 19th-century chic. I have cousins in Roanoke, and I remember when one of them took a trip with his mother-in-law to a place in Franklin County the MIL had just inherited from her mother. Cleaning out the attic for purposes of putting the house on the market, the MIL discovered what must have been her own father’s Klan outfit. She had never known.
Of course, that activity would have been a little before 2008, but I used to live in Roanoke and recall trips through Franklin County being remarkably Jesus-soaked (Roanoke itself is a city of 250,000 and thus something of a buffer against raw faithcrap, in my experience).
I really feel bad for this kid. It’s an educational crime to have this thing held up. It’s hard enough to get kids to actually put effort into essays they write–I’ve taught hgh-school English and most kids just try to fulfill the minimum word count with arrant bullshit. Here we have one with passion, and he’s being rewarded with a slap in the face thanks to the pernicious yokelry of his environment.
The problem is tenure? WTF?
jaybz, I hardly think you’re qualified to judge the quality of written work.
Walton @ #129: Yeah, that’s the problem with WND – the ads. *rolls eyes*
Actually I consider all of America to be a hick country. I assume you’ve seen the poll that compared the United States to all of Europe and Japan. We have the largest percentage of morons in the Western world, except for Muslim Turkey.
Another poll shows that only 14% of Americans accept evolution without invoking a fairy to guide it. I think it’s fair to say 86% of Americans are idiots.
Nowdays there are quite a few northern transplants in the south. My inlaws, who grew up in Michigan, moved to SC when my FIL changed careers about the time the Redhead and I got married. They bought a house in the country then, and are retired now. Their next door neighbor fits some of the stereotypes though.
Patricia, their next door neighbor also keeps chickens, and they are able to fly enough to roost in the trees overnight.
Speaking of evolution vs. myth:
Does anyone know why Talk Origins website is down for over a day? Are they under attack by more creationists trying to demonstrate their patriotism and religious conviction by suppressing science and truth?
“that’s how it is”: refuge of cretins.
This reminds me of the time one of my classmates informed our teacher that I was reading The Satanic Bible at lunch. That teacher then thought it prudent to sit me down and make sure I didn’t believe in what it said. I told her that I didn’t (which was true) but left out that I thought her beliefs were just as ridiculous. I was incredibly pissed off and disheartened after that and kept my beliefs to myself as I had been shown that all that would come from being open would be lecturing.
P.S.
I am in no way encouraging the reading of The Satanic Bible. It is a very silly book which consists mainly of a long rant followed by self-admittedly bogus “magick” rituals.
I was wondering that yesterday. I wanted to provide a troll/Poe with a link to the Index of Creationist Claims, but couldn’t get it to open. What is going on?
to woody @ 67
Ever hear of the Inquisition? Well, they did’t die from converting. They died from the fire and the rack, and the pincers, or on the points of spears or swords. Mainly for NOT converting to Xianity.
sorry.. just correcting a common mistake.
The inquisition did not have authority over non catholics. they only could go after a catholic that tried to change his mind ( for heressy, or for having beliefs from other religions, curiously they had little interest in witches), but they could not go after a non catholic. Also they did not have power to carry executions, that was the task of the goverment.
In Spain, it was the task of the goverment to assure that only chatholics live there. So to live in spain you had to pretend you were a catholic (this is why jews and muslins living in Spain had to deal with the inquisition)
Of course, this is a bit academic… the fear inspired by the inquisition was enough. Laws were done on it, Atheism in the old europe,was considered a worst civil offence than being from other religion.
They’re constantly under attack.
I just emailed the Gereau PR dept. to let them know that their principal was getting his Asshat Award at Pharyngula. I want them to know that their idiotic principal is being publicly excoriated. The Dumbass!
Joshua BA @ 144
I am in no way encouraging the reading of The Satanic Bible.
Well, i actually recomend it… It is an amusing book, but more important, they accept their rituals had no value, except to impress outsiders.
I Actually remember a comment on their web site, which was something like this:
“Do you want to go after the dark lord?. Have you find a satanic church that promisses orgies, black mass, and black magic… ?
Be carefull. Probably they are only after your money”
(english is not my language, so probalby i am changing something )
So even satanism in not was it was use to be…. ;)
Ooh, flashback time! I was the copy editor on my high school’s literary magazine, called, oddly enough, Seed. The publication in question here sounds like a slightly different animal: quarterly, instead of annual, and slanted towards news instead of poetry ‘n stuff. We did, however, deal with the same problem of scissor-happy administrators. In our case, the vice-principal in charge of such affairs preferred to snip bits out of the pieces we chose, prior to printing, rather than eject them outright. Still, it’s the same mentality at work: blandness at all costs.
The kid needs an editor, not a censor.
I read the article, and I have to say, it’s very impressive work for a high school student. I thought, maybe, it was going to have a bunch of snarky Christian-bashing in it. But I could only find two slightly negative sentences, and they aren’t even directed at any group in particular:
The rest of it is a very solid argument that explains away some of the common misconceptions about evolution. I didn’t see anything non-factual or misleading. In fact, it’s so well written, I’m a little curious if he plagiarized it :o)
If there was any lesson to be learned here, it’s that life isn’t fair and one will just have to deal with it. – jaybz
It’s odd, but I find that people who make this kind of observation are almost always among those who have done pretty well out of “life’s” unfairness, and intend to keep it that way.
I have this feeling that Bezy just doesn’t want to publish Creasy’s article because he thinks it sucks in the first place and he doesn’t have the heart to say so. – jaybz
Come off it. This is a school principal we’re talking about. None of those I encountered ever had any problem in saying that a student’s work was poor, and pointing out why. Creasy’s essay, in any case, is not poor: for a short summary, it’s pretty good, with only one misconception that I could see – that the fact you differ from your parents illustrates evolution.
There might be some call for “sensitivity,” since that would be demanded by most editors.
By contrast, when even the egregious Phillip Johnson admits that evolution has an advantage for at least having a theory (coupled with some gratuitous insults of it, of course), while ID does not (“yet”–haha Johnson, like that could ever happen) have a theory, there certainly is no call for striking out the well-established fact that evolution is the only theory dealing with its issues.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
I think public school administrators are the real enemy
Some of us have been saying that for decades.
#151
I decided to check. Some indeed seems to be taken from this essay which is apparently from 2007.
http://www.interaktv.com/DARWIN/Evolution.html
#155
Damn, I was mostly joking. But you’re right. He took whole paragraphs from that piece.
WHAT!!! I never heard of the “Charleston WV assault on the schools before. Did the fundies have a good old fashioned book burning? They can be so cute when they try to think.
Book burnings have become rare. The last ones I heard of were a few years ago when Harry Potter books were burned in a few places.
Yeah, lies and violence are always just below the surface of fundies. Because xianity is a religion of peace, enlightenment, tolerance and jesus loves you.
I, too, was once a high school English teacher, and have read hundreds of essays. You would be amazed at the number of 16 year-olds who can’t even write a comprehensible sentence, much less a unified paragraph. By high school standards, this essay was more than decent, it was pretty damn good. If I were grading it as an 11th grade essay, it definitely would have received a A from me. Now if it had been submitted by a college sophomore, I would have expected a good deal more, but would have still have given it a C. So there.
Folks – do look at the link in comment #155. It appears Creasy plagiarized another essay. Damn – I hate it when someone you want to defend turns out to have an ethics deficiency.
Merciful FSM, he plagiarized.
That explains the tone of the article.
If the principal had been savvy enough to use search engines, this whole thing could have been avoided.
My bad. I taught before the age of the internet, and never even considered plagiarism. Is it THAT rampant now?
Yeah. That’s lame. Lame on all accounts.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead | December 12, 2008
Nowdays there are quite a few northern transplants in the south. My inlaws, who grew up in Michigan, moved to SC…
Initials are funny things. I started picturing your in laws living on SC, OM. I am sure this hinders SC quite a bit.
Now we’ve got a real reason why that essay should be stricken.
But for the ignorant Bezy, I want to include the actual quote of Phillip Johnson stating that ID has no theory, to which I referred in #153:
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
@155 – Ugh. Looks like Creasy did indeed plagiarise. That doesn’t excuse the principal’s censorship, but I hope Creasy gets it in the neck.
Well OK, to be exact Johnson says that there is no “comparable” ID theory, allowing that there could be an ID theory.
If you knew what a theory was and were intellectually honest, Johnson, you wouldn’t use the weasel words.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
Man, it takes some chutzpah to RESUBMIT a plagiarized article.
Janine, I see how you can picture them living with SC, OM. One of those DOH moments when you mentioned it.
What kind of idiot would make a public fuss over the censorship of a plagiarized article?
If this is the state of plagiarism in the South,…;)
PZ, maybe Skatje has been out of school too long, but you should realize that K-12 public schools have no conception of Constitutional rights. Why do you think you constantly have the Gideons trying to distribute Bibles there, even though they’ve gotten shot down by courts every single time?
It’s so bad I dread “Constitution Day” at the school, because I worry about the teachers trying to create some “classroom bill of rights” that essentially consists of, “do whatever the teacher says, and she won’t punish you”.
You do know that in many states corporal punishment is still practiced in the schools? Things we’re not allowed to do to felons are perpetrated on schoolchildren daily. Do you want to guess what the due process is before levying such punishment? That’s right, nothing. Pretty much no due process at all, not the right to confront witnesses against them, not the right to appeal, and the teacher accusing can be the same one judging and levying the punishment.
And you expect them to know anything about freedom of speech? Feh.
Stuff like this is partly why I hated school. Many teachers and principals (certainly not all) treat school as a place to program automatons to meet certain acceptable parameters, rather than as a place to teach students to think for themselves. Unfortunately, if you merely shut up and do what you’re told you can succeed. That’s not really a great lesson to be teaching.
In a class on world religions I submitted essays which directly argued against some of the positions my teacher advocated in class. When I got them back the marks were always less than stellar. Then, as an experiment, I wrote a fluff piece in which the arguments were ones which I figured my teacher would make. I actually felt dirty writing it because I didn’t agree with a word of it. It got an +A and the remark ‘Your writing has improved’.
#169: I assume Creasy thought the article he plagerized was important enough that he thought it should be published anyway. I wish he would have at least had integrity enough to paraphrase it. Still, it does take balls to try to get a Evolution article published in a WV school.
WHY I OUGHT TA….
Keep pulling my hair on the playground. Just like Randolph.:)
(BTW, when I hear “hinder,” all I can think of is racquetball.)
MP2K (#155):
Oh, that’s priceless. Tickets for the FAIL boat all around!
Seriously, the kid deserves to fail the class this assignment was written for, and the principal needs a remedial science education.
And, of course, random blog-readers on the Internet are doing the job which teachers and journalists should have done first. Film at 11.
Um, no. This is a disingenuous fantasy put out by the church in a ludicrous attempt to keep blood off its hands. The real truth is that the “government,” wherever it was, was a tool of the church and ALWAYS did its bidding. And where did you get that nonsense about the church having little interest in witches? Have you never read the Malleus Mallificarum? I have. And yes, it was written by two official inquisitors. It seems you have drunk of the kool-aid.
Oh, you can find the essay (or at least parts of it) at a site called CheatHouse.com, which bills itself as “The ultimate essay reference library”.
Holy shit. Describing this as plagiarism is too kind. He basically just copied and pasted the thing.
FastLane said:
I am not talking about a difference of opinion. Nor am I offend by people whose opinion is different than mine. What I am talking about is kids listening to ipods, sending text messages, or carrying on private conversations while in the class room … or worse.
Consider this example from my own teenage life. In the 8th grade my homeroom class was held in a portable. I used to sit at the back of the class near a window which was open when it was hot. Sometimes I would sit on the windowsill with my feet on the chair as a way of challenging my teacher to do something. He didn’t. So a few times I jumped out the window and walked back into the class room through the front door. That is disrespect.
I ran into this teacher 6 years later at a Jack-in-a-Box. He had quit his job and moved on. He was happy to see that I had straighted out and gone to collge though.
However, this essay at coursework.info (“inspiration in an instant”) is a closer match.
Only sometimes?
When faced with school censorship in the 9th grade, I did what any free thinking kid did in the late 60’s – I started an anonymous underground newspaper.
All went well for about 8 weeks until I was caught in the teachers work room using the schools mimeograph machine.
Dog, I still love the odor of mimeographs.
Oooooh! Story: I once started a class on, let’s say, paranormal anthropology. I thought it would be interesting in terms of studying the roots of and social responses to alleged paranormal experiences (and it was, to an extent – one book, I think it was called The History of Witchcraft, was, as I recall, a solid history of the persecution of people who were labeled as witches and the reasons for this persecution). The regular assignment, though, was to write a paper discussing some paranormal phenomenon, pro and con. The first one I did was about “The Amazing Randi” and his exposing of (I think) Russian psychics who were bilking poor people out of their money. I wrote that he was right and that the important thing was to show people the evidence. I got a C, with a comment that I hadn’t given the other side’s view. Aside from the fact that a C is not a grade I had ever gotten (A or F – for failure to appear – it had always been), I had no idea what the other side’s argument was. After a witch came to the class and talked about casting spells over her vacuum cleaner while burning incense (which made me pass out), I dropped the class. I still have no idea what the other side’s argument was, and could not attempt to formulate it in any intellectually-honest way.
I do have one comment about people saying the principal violated the student’s or the newspaper’s rights. School newspapers are funded by the school district. Just like in the real world, the owners of the paper have final say over content. The publishers of the New York Times, for example, are not obligated to print everything their editors want to print.
So while the principal was being a douchebag, he wasn’t violating anyone’s free speech or free press rights – he was exercising his rights as the publisher of the newspaper.
That said, the principal of the high school I went to chose never to interfere in the school newspaper in the time I was there.
@149
Not that I thought you were implying otherwise but just to be clear, I don’t recommend it because I don’t think it’s a very good book, not because I think reading it would be a bad thing to do.
Folks – do look at the link in comment #155. It appears Creasy plagiarized another essay. Damn – I hate it when someone you want to defend turns out to have an ethics deficiency.
Well, that’s just super. Creotards coming in and yelling “SEE! Darwinists(TM) always LIE!” (and missing the point as completely as they do when they try to use Piltdown against us) in 3, 2, 1…
Not at all surprised that an administrator would do that. I was hauled into the office the other day (I teach high school biology) and told I teach too much evolution and that I need to present other ideas, like Intelligent Design. He told me “he read a book that said that it was a valid scientific theory”. I told him he was incorrect and he told me not to fight on this one because teachers always lose.
The whole issue came from a single parent complaint about an assignment that asked students to identify misconceptions about evolution and correct them and write why it is appropriate to teach evolution in a biology class.
After being yelled at by the administrator I had 5 other parents demand their student didn’t have to do the assignment. This is in Arizona where evolution is prominent in the state standards.
So an administrator covering his ass and pushing his backwards ideas is not at all a shock.
Original content copyright 1995-2007 Robert B. Hole, Jr. All Rights Reserved
I suppose Principal Bezy can redirect his criticism towards this gentleman now.
Shame on student Brandon Creasy for this. Yes, he has an excellent cause on the censorship and ‘sensitivity’ issue, and our points regarding that still stand on principle. But it’s clear plagiarism. Since he had to know this himself, why did he allow it to become a cause celebre? Youth, but still…
It’s flip side, but it does remind me a bit of that Intelligent Design paper which made it into a science journal, and was pulled, not for lack of merit, but because parts of it were discovered to be plagiarized. Bit of a cop-out. Was that Proteomics? I think one of the commenters on Pharyngula (sili) got credit for busting that in the NCSE Reports.
And Pharyngula Comments section strikes a blow for truth yet again — even when we’d rather it was elsewise. Kudos for MP2K #155.
Posted by: SC, OM | December 12, 2008
The regular assignment, though, was to write a paper discussing some paranormal phenomenon, pro and con. The first one I did was about “The Amazing Randi” and his exposing of (I think) Russian psychics who were bilking poor people out of their money. I wrote that he was right and that the important thing was to show people the evidence. I got a C, with a comment that I hadn’t given the other side’s view.
You really should have thought of the people being bilked. Did you stop to think that their good feelings that they had after dealing with the psychics was worth the money spent. And did you stop to think that the psychics believe they have special powers and should be allowed to get paid for using them. You were just being hurtful and mean.
Thankfully, I never had to deal with a woo addled professor.
The post-rejection charge of plagiarism is irrelevant to the issue of censorship. The administrator was unaware the essay was plagiarized and rejected the essay for, apparently, religious reasons that may not necessarily be his personal religious reasons.
Glad I read all the comments here first.
My first reaction was to agree with #131 that this was a very well-written journalistic piece for a high school student. Of course it’s not an academic article – it is meant to engage and inform non-experts (ie: his fellow students) on an issue. This piece successfully accomplished that, and other than an erroneous apostrophe (“it’s” instead of “its”), there was nothing that leapt out at me that made this a “bad” paper.
However, the plagiarism trumps everything, and the article should not be published for that reason. It doesn’t excuse the principal at all, however; it just shows why letting your emotional opinions lead you in your duties leads to gross errors in judgment. If he hadn’t been so wrapped up in the “evolution is teh eevil” idea and been smart, he would have acknowledged that the paper was well written and done some checking to make sure it was the students’ writing. If he had done so, he would have had an incredibly easy out (and had fodder to claim that “ZOMG Secular Evolutionists plagiarize!!!”) that wouldn’t have landed this in the media. Instead, he looks like both a zealot and an incompetent academic administrator. The teacher also failed in his duties, by the way.
Now I am sad that the piece was plagiarized and amused that the principal looks like a total doofus.
I think LeVoy just wrote that to make some money. He was a struggling lounge musician before that. And they are pretty heavy into copyright protection.
L. Ron Hubbard did the same thing with more success.
As most know, the position of the church of satan is that he doesn’t exist, along with all the other gods and supernatural beings.
Kyle, you should point them to this
Concerning Kyle’s comment at #187, is it possible to bring that administrator under fire for not doing that person’s job?
@Kyle #187
The teacher’s union’s contract for the district where I live has language in there to deal with stuff like that. The school board has, in the past, tried to force teaching of creationism and related religious bullshit and so the teachers made sure that they would be able to tell the students the truth without fear of retribution from administration.
completely OT, but could some of you sciency guys point me to some good science articles about DDT? Some idiot on another forum is claiming that scientists are responsible for genocide for banning DDT, because it eradicated Malaria in the US (true, according to the CDC) and could do the same in Africa
I can’t find anything good to counter this. Help?!
@ 184: I do have one comment about people saying the principal violated the student’s or the newspaper’s rights. School newspapers are funded by the school district. Just like in the real world, the owners of the paper have final say over content. The publishers of the New York Times, for example, are not obligated to print everything their editors want to print.
So while the principal was being a douchebag, he wasn’t violating anyone’s free speech or free press rights – he was exercising his rights as the publisher of the newspaper.
I don’t see the principal’s power to censor the school newspaper as a right, but as a duty s/he has in the role of head administrator of an institution for education of minors. That power exists for the purpose of running a school well and protecting the well-being of the students within it, not as a way for the principal to exercise personal opinions unrelated to the job. In this context, the principal failed… unless he was truly afraid that the local community would burn down the school or lynch the student. I doubt that was the case.
Kyle wrote: I told him he was incorrect and he told me not to fight on this one because teachers always lose.
Did you happen to mention to him that he may want to keep up with current events? He’s skating on some rather thin legal ice here.
The best I could shortly describe CoS Satanism is that it is a sort of atheistic anti-Humanism.
I’m sure that person is at least in part blaming it on Rachel Carson’s Silent Spring.
Bah hit submit to early…
It’s the classic right winger tactic to blame environmentalists for the “genocide” caused by Malaria. Blaming just scientists is frankly stupid as scientists are the ones who created DDT and are now creating other ways to eradicate Malaria.
…[PZ quoting the opinion piece] “The law gives the principal the responsibility to edit publications of the school,” Bezy said. “It is an important responsibility because the principal has to look out for the rights and sensitivities of all students, especially in a diverse and multicultural area.”
Man, this guy sounds like a pompous gasbag…
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Or like a politician.
Oh, wait, maybe I’m being redundant (“gasbag” and “politician” arguably being synonymous).
Anyhow, it seems to me that “look[ing] out for the rights and sensitivities of all students” by insulating students from reality as presently disclosed by empirical science is a totally screwball way to try to educate them and prepare them for adult life in the real world.
For the myths propagated about Rachel Carson and DDT, start here.
I still love the odor of mimeographs.
In Soviet Russia, mimeographs still love the odor of you.
Please kill me.
After being yelled at by the administrator I had 5 other parents demand their student didn’t have to do the assignment.
Wow. A high school biology teacher yelled at for doing his job. Definitely the administrator should be fired, and the five idiot parents need to read Arizona’s public school science standards.
Kyle, you might not be interested in risking your job, but for the sake of your students I hope you fight this. You might want to read about this Georgia teacher who had the exact same problem you have. She showed her administrators the science standards and she threatened them with legal action. She won her battle, but unfortunately was fed up enough to retire early.
My contempt for Christian assholes grows every day. That death cult must be eradicated. Christian retards must not be allowed to destroy science education.
Congratulations to MP2K on #155 and catching something the teacher, the principal, and the newspaper missed.
Is that so? I’m not familiar with such denominations.
But anyway, what about the separation of church and state?
Really? Surprising.
However, a disproven theory is still a theory. The phlogiston theory of combustion, for example.
Certainly.
(And a lot more gullible than average. 15 pounds of undigested waste? Like what, 7 1/2 kg?!? Holy crap indeed. You’d look pregnant. Not to mention the fact that your colon would be blocked, so you wouldn’t have been able to shit for months. TSIB!!!)
SC, OM #183 wrote:
Well, I know what the other side’s argument is, and, if you’d done some research, you could have met the criteria set out for the paper, which was that it must be pro and con.
The other side’s view is that dealing with paranormal phenomena like this is a delicate business, because it’s extremely sensitive to emotional conditions. Sometimes the mere presence of a skeptic is enough to change results, or block the psychic energy fields.
Also, the fact that some psychics are caught cheating doesn’t mean they always cheat. When you know that your abilities are revealing something very important — and when those abilities are erratic –it is very tempting to cheat. Psychics have a deep sense of responsibility to the Powers they have tapped into — and they know that these Powers exist — and that enthusiasm and commitment can over-ride their judgment. Additionally, psychics are often are very empathetic, warm-hearted individuals, who care about people, and don’t want them to be disappointed.
For those psychics who really are phonies — well, that doesn’t mean they’re all phonies. Randi deliberately picks weak subjects. There were other Russian psychics which he didn’t get around to testing — perhaps for good reason.
And, last but not least, the issue of whether or not the abilities are real is beside the point. Does believing that the abilities are real fulfill a need for people? If so, then exposing frauds does more harm than good, because people need faith, and dreams, and a belief in something higher than themselves, more than they need their money.
The above rationalizations are, of course, bullshit. But, those are the arguments on the other side. The fact that they can be shot down doesn’t mean they don’t deserve consideration. Or that they don’t exist.
I’m mean. I’d have given you a C, too. More likely, B-, since it was probably written well. But as for the rest of your story, it sounds like the teacher may have been pro-woo, and a bit of an ass.
Man, what a disappoinment, plagerism!
I wish that kid could be made to read this thread, so he could see himself go from hero to ethically deficient in 155 moves.
You need to do penance, kid, go sit through a church service.
GIL said: No one died converting from atheism to Christianity.
You know, that is entirely true. However, a great many people have died for refusing to convert to Christianity….
Exactly. You’d think that if you knew you’d plagiarized something you’d let the fight go pretty quickly. That’s why this makes me wonder if this is an indication that ‘kids these days’ maybe don’t generally have a solid concept of what plagiarism means. I mean, it’s so easy to get anything you need on the internet these days, that I often wonder if alot of kids don’t even realize that they’re doing something wrong by copying text from somewhere else. Or even if they know it’s wrong, perhaps they don’t realize how grave of an offense it is anymore. Any high school teachers with some insight on this?
Ooh, be careful in assigning penance. Far too many church services (not all, naturally) teach, via subtext, that any form of dishonesty will do in the pursuit of a “righteous cause.”
We’d rather have him learn ethics from the ethical.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
“We’d rather have him learn ethics from the ethical.”
Good point.
Methinks I’ve just been drubbed.
Stuff like this is why my mom home-schooled me for a few years. Granted, all the other home-schooled kids thought it was for “moral reasons” like in their families, and that led to some awkward conversations.
As much as the fundie home-schooling phenomena scares me, I’m glad I got the oppertunity to go and learn uninhibited by idiots like this.
@ #196 Jadehawk
Great article to counter with is Agricultural production and malaria resurgence in Central America and India Georganne Chapin & Robert Wasserstrom, Nature 293 181-185 (17 September 1981)
The relative effectiveness of DDT versus other malaria control techniques ( bednets, anti-malarial drugs) varies greatly and is highly dependent on local conditions. Yes – DDT worked well for eliminating malaria in the US. It has not been so successful in Africa. In fact, better malaria control has generally been achieved with pyrethroids than with DDT. http://ipmworld.umn.edu/chapters/curtiscf.htm
Vector control uses of DDT – not banned – and indoor residual spraying still results in the use 4-5,000 tonnes of DDT per year in countries where malaria is a serious health issue. The less persistent, and more expensive, alternative insecticides have mostly replaced DDT in use.
So you can tell these DDT-whingers to stuff it.
You’re shitting us.
Wow. Too bad you didn’t tell the teacher that… or did you?
That was about the Spanish Inquisition, not the RCC in general.
English fails me. I have to resort to Spanish: GOR GOL GLOUUC ¡GROJFF!
eh, i don’t know how to quote, and i’m now short on time so i’m gonna skip that part instead. and seeing the link from #155 kinda changes things, but let me just explain to people who seems to have misunderstood my post.
oh and let me first say, Nick, i hope i don’t misunderstand but it’s a rather unfair generalization for you to imply that the people who say “life is unfair, just deal with it” has “done pretty well”. and that they want to keep it that way by telling people to just deal with it. but then again, all generalizations are unfair anyway because there are always exceptions to the rule. plus, that life is unfair line is normally spoken with a tone of bitterness (probably not the right word, but i hope you get the point) so i suppose it’s easy to come to a generalization. but think of this: isn’t it possible that a good number of people who have done pretty well because when life is unfair, instead of complaining, they move on from the incident and continue trying? if you don’t, well, then let’s agree just to disagree. that’s beside the point anyway, and frankly, that’s a very difficult debate topic as it is very hard to come by facts for it that you can confirm.
and now for my clarification. i said “i have a feeling” about Bezy’s intentions because it’s just that, a gut feeling. there’s nothing to even hint at that possibility, so i can’t really assume that with any degree of certainty. however, let me be clear on the matter. i don’t think Bezy intending to protect Creasy’s feelings or anything by not telling him the truth. Bezy’s a school administator and i believe he knows that protecting Bezy like that is actually not good for him or his job. the thing is, from what i have read, it appears that Campbell thinks the essay is good enough for the paper and that Bezy did not publicly say the real reason for Campbell’s benefit. also, i just thought of this as i was typing this in, and i think it’s rather far fetched, but it could also be a sort of a politics thing. it’s easier to get to an administrative position if you have some degree of political skills in your repertoire. eh but like i said, gut feeling.
now, let me get to the biggest point of my first comment. i guess i did not this put this plainly enough but what i’m saying is that the essay isn’t publication material. i didn’t say it was poorly written even for a 16 year old. in fact, i believe the general idea was presented in a somewhat fashion that makes you go “hmm yeah that’s right!”. and yeah, a lot of 16 year olds do a lot much worse than that. but style-wise, it needs editing before it can be published, specially in the school paper because the other students will have access to it. this essay, if i were to grade it, will get the kid a score of B or B+. A- at best just because grammar is good, though correct me if i’m wrong, but i think grammar was taught before 10th grade and that at this point, it’s the whole composition that should be graded, and not each individual sentence. some might consider this too much perfectionism, but if you got past 1st grade, you should have already mastered or at least have a good grasp of what was taught in 1st grade and so on. and if you didn’t, you shouldn’t have passed in the first place. what you need to put in a school paper is an A+. you don’t want to teach children that mediocre is good enough and just a little bit above that will already get you places. or at least i don’t. maybe i have relatively high standards on published material from students, but if students see an article that their school endorses, the students will most likely use that article as a measuring stick. and if teachers really settle for that kind of quality, then there’s no wonder why the US educational system is as bad as it is. on the other hand, i didn’t think of this right away, but what if that is the best they got? but that’s rather sadder than i expected. and it’s even worse if you take the plagiarism into account. maybe they should close the paper.
oh and wait, SC, OM i hardly think you’re qualified to make that judgement you made, but hey, i hardly know you so what do i know? ohhhh wait, YOU hardly know ME…. hhmmmm… and you have the gall to attack me at a personal level? let me see. i heard it’s best to ignore people like that. let me try that and see if it works.
The mosquitos were becoming resistant to DDT. Had its use continued, it would have become completely useless within a few years. And still killed everything else further up the food chain.
There was a bit of rhetoric on my part in saying that I don’t know the arguments on the other side. Of course I know what they say – it’s just total garbage. When I said “I still have no idea what the other side’s argument was,” I meant non-bullshit argument – that’s why I added “and could not attempt to formulate it in any intellectually-honest way.” A bullshit argument is not an argument. Any professor who makes students spout bullshit or take it overly seriously to get a decent grade is a Grade-A ass and a shame to the profession. (In my defense, I did mention several of the points you raise; I then proceeded to shoot them down. In your defense, I didn’t spell that out in my post. The professor has no defense.)
Next to nothing, clearly.
I had read your post.
Please.
yes
scientists got blamed specifically because this was originally a thread on AGW (the woo on that one is being effectively refuted). This particular moron said that AGW is a money-making scheme from the same scientists who are responsible for the “genocide” in Africa due to banning DDT
Diagoras @ 215: thanks for the link
yeah, I did mention resistance and the poisoning of the environment. he didn’t believe me, so I was hoping for something mroe authoritative than my opinion, preferable an actual research paper or something similar… you know, actually smacking him in the face with facts and evidence.
I think Bezy is hiding behind the school’s “6 pillars of character.”
http://gereau.frco.k12.va.us/PILLARS.htm
Under respect it reads: “Treat others with respect; follow The Golden Rule ~ Be tolerant of differences ~ Use good manners, not bad languages ~ Be considerate of the feelings of others ~ Don’t threaten, hit or hurt anyone ~ Deal peacefully with anger, insults and disagreements”
http://abigfatbaloneysandwich.blogspot.com/2008/12/evolution-offends-principles.html
Evidently evolution offends Bezy’s religious sensitivities.
I’m not a highschool teacher, but I’ll tell you what I do know. The notion of plagiarism is highly cultural. To illustrate this point (from experience in two third-level institutions with a large number of Chinese undergraduates in two European countries) Chinese students seem to have no concept of intellectual work “belonging” to someone else, and will stare at you blankly in utter bewilderment if you suggest that they shouldn’t have copied an assignment from their friend or the Internet. The rules and expectations have to be explained to them very carefully on day one so they don’t run afoul of them.
When I was in school, “cogging” (as it was called) — copying from another student — was widely done. We didn’t consider it a great moral crime, it was just something you did occasionally when you hadn’t done your homework/assignment. I suppose that kids nowadays view copying stuff off the Internet similarly — as a rather trivial misdemeanour rather than as a capital crime — and operate according to the 11th Commandment, “Thou shalt not get caught”.
Even teachers tacitly accept a certain level of plagiarism in practice. I’ve corrected assignments where I knew that two or more assignments were way too similar to have been done independently, but actually proving to the “beyond reasonable doubt” standard of evidence (required in the institution I worked in) was next to impossible, and “winding up” the weighty formal plagiarism procedures for every suspected case was simply impractical. What I often did in practice, where there was a good case, was challenge the students involved, explain the formal procedure that I was supposed to initiate, and offer them the opportunity to withdraw the assignment and accept a grade of zero for failure to submit. They fessed up and accepted that option every time.
@ #221, Jadehawk
Mosquito resistance research –
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10697882
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16161701
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14651656
If you need more – let me know.
In your defense, I didn’t spell that out in my post.
I just read it again, and I really didn’t. Sorry. The professor wanted us not merely to present the pro arguments without any attention to their lack of empirical support (or to the need for them to be supported), but to consider them equally valid. I should have known when I saw the “pro and con” assignment and heard some of the lectures, but I was young and assumed it was like other classes in which I could make a critical argument if I supported it.
It was unfortunate as I’d started a paper about Vodoun and politics in Haiti that I was excited about.
@ #221, Jadehawk
Here’s a good one on the cost-effectiveness of DDT v. treated mosquito nets: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118999367/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
*bows before the awesomeness of Diagoras*
thanks, this will be very very useful :-)
Thanks for your response Emmet. Yes, I have heard quite a bit recently about how very different the notion of plagiarism is in different cultures. As one example, we had a research ethics day at my grad. school recently and one talk was on the subject of plagiarism. One student stood up and told us that she had finished her MSc at a school in the Middle East and that her supervisor had taken her thesis and submitted it as a paper, which has since been published, without including her as an author. No one at her previous institution is willing to help her or even recognize it as a major problem. It was terrible to hear. Since I sit on a faculty wide meeting as a student representative, I have also heard of numerous examples of foreign trained students being caught plagiarising and having very little concept that they’ve done anything wrong.
#227 Jadehawk –
Curious, now, where you’re arguing. *does the dance of curiosity*
SC, OM #225:
Sounds like your teacher bought into the “all views are valid because people matter” sort of approach beloved of those with poorly supported views.
Emmett Caulfield #223 wrote:
But this was a little different. It wasn’t an assignment for a teacher. Brandon Creasy presented the work as his own, to be published in a magazine whose primary readership would be his friends and family. “What a wonderful article, Brandon. Wow, you’re a great writer.”
“Thanks, it was nothing, really.”
Really.
Lee Picton @#176
As i said.. it is a little academic and i am not trying to defend the inquisition… but we have to be careful with the facts.
So, yes it is true. The inquisition was formed specially to fight heresy and they only had jurisdiction over Catholics. They could not go after a Jew or a Muslim. Unless… they had taken baptism, they they were officially Catholics.
Very bureaucratic indeed.
And sorry, I repeat:
“The Spanish inquisition had little interest in witches”-
Since 1260, the pope Alejandro IV order not to go after witches, unless there was a denounce, eventually the inquisition would condemn also the witch hunts.
That was because, they considered heresy more important, and maybe more relevant, Since the expenses of the trial were paid by the acussed. And witches were poor, ussually they did not were very interested in witches, in Spain and in latinamerica there are very few executions about witchcraft, in Mexico there were about 65 cases in 300 years. They were usually after rich people, of jews or Muslims ancestry, who could paid well.
The Spanish inquisition has a very good filing system, they wrote down until the last scream of their victims. So we know how they liked rich people. Specially since rich families, sometimes were ordered to pay the trial over several generations. Of course authorities and the king, had their part. Sometimes the accusations were a mean from the king of Spain to get political opposition out of his way.
The “Malleus Maleficarum” was a book FORBIDDEN by the catholic church. Heinrich Kramer one of the authors was taken to the inquisition, because it´s demonology was considered heretic.
The “Malleus Maleficarum” was popular between those who did not care which books were forbitten by the catholic church, mainly protestants and anglicans. The histeria of the witch hunt was mainly in germany and england, while the catholic hysteria were the heretics.
I we have to fight against religious nonsense, we must be careful with our facts. At least we are intelligent enough to check our facts.
Thanks for the support and the comments!
The admin. called me into the office for another reason and then went to town on me about evolution without warning, if I had of known what I was walking into I would have made sure that I had the Kitzmiller case printed out for him, as it was I did bring it up and it was clear he had never heard of it.
I wish we had a union that could support me, but no such luck in my district.
I do keep teaching evolution and bring it up when ever relevant (the main evolution unit is over, I will revisit it when I get into genetics). So it hasn’t changed my teaching just pissed me off.
at “work”, so to speak. it’s an internal forum on a stock photography site, don’t think it’s accessible without registering as a contributor.
Which, of course, was a choice made in complete freedom.
http://www.pbs.org/inquisition/
LisaJ,
You just pushed my Patriarchy is Evil button. I want to speculate that her supervisor is male. Then, since females are of little import and anything they do well is to the honour of their responsible male supervisors, what else could he do? Besides, the otherwise good research would have been ignored with a woman’s name on it, right?
/prejudiced rant.
Can someone explain to my why plagiarism is supposedly immoral? I mean a real reason not just a rewording of the same act (i.e. “Because taking someone else’s work is wrong”).
The idea that I could own an idea or an expression thereof is strange to me. I am not deprived of anything if someone uses my ideas for their own. If the point is that you should be able to take credit for your own work then there are many different ways you can show that you are the original author (getting a copy notarized before you turn it in for instance).
As far as school work goes, the only time I really cared if someone copied my work was when I thought I would get caught (I may not think it’s wrong but the teacher sure did), when the person was very annoying, or when the person didn’t understand the work (in which case I would show them how to do it rather than just give them the answer). If they knew the stuff but just didn’t finish the work, I had no problem letting them copy (and if I was in the same situation they would reciprocate).
#230 Sastra,
I was trying to offer some kind of answer to LisaJ’s question, which I quoted, rather than a defence of Creasy. I construed LisaJ’s question as more general than the specific context of this article.
If plagiarism has become so acceptable that this kid’s behaviour is not absolutely extraordinary in it’s bare-faced chutzpah, then education is really in trouble.
Yeah, I checked it out. In most protestant denominations a deacon is a layperson (almost definitely with baptists).
What about church and state? I don’t think there is a country in the world where “separation of church and state” means that people who volunteer at a church (or even clergy) are banned from government employment. Certainly not the United States where several preachers have run for president.
My own #237,¶2: s/it’s/its/
*blush*
Joshau BA #236 wrote:
I think you’re looking at this the wrong way: plagiarism as a kind of theft that hurts the victim. The more significant category is “misrepresentation.” The student is misrepresenting someone else’s work as their own; lying.
Teachers don’t assign homework because they really want to read those little pieces of paper. The purpose is for the student to practice and learn, and the grades are supposed to be earned.
Well bravo for you then, Kyle. Keep up the good work, and keep your head down.
Interesting – the Roanake Times website has taken down the Comments to the article. I wonder why…?
As the nerd guy in post # 13 pointed out, this is exactly the justification the PC/identity politics crowd have used to stifle debate that challenges liberal delusion. It’s discouraging how few people seem to be against this sort of thing regardless of which side is perpetuating it. Liberals only seem to get excited when conservatives pull this crap and conservatives only seem to get excited when liberals pull this crap. I say it’s crap crap crap.
Reality is often profoundly unpleasant. A real adult at least tries to deal with it honestly, although we all come up short.
Emmet,
It is my understanding that it is now policy for many professors in North American colleges and universities to submit all essays to one of the plagiarism services. For a fee, I suppose, these companies store an ever expanding database of articles and run each new submission against it. The student also must sign off to permit the use of the essay in the database.
The mind boggles.
looks like a clitoris to me
@236 Joshua BA
Society has a set of rules – and now, using the words of someone else, without acknowledging their contribution to your effort is considered wrong. In Ancient Greece, however, no one owned ideas, so using wholesale the words of someone else was considered completely fair game.
Copyright protection of your work is considered a societal good because it encourages people to create work – because they have a stake in the endeavor. As an author, you have control of and profit from your works for a finite period. Because society feels the creation of intellectual works is a “good” – plagiarism is considered an “ill” since it interferes with this right.
In Greek times, dissemination of ideas was limited, so it was a “good” to get ideas out by any means. Now, in the modern era with various forms to quickly communicate ideas – it is an ill not to give credit to the “owner” of the idea.
@ Sastra #240
How is it theft to use an idea? Why should it be wrong to use the words of someone else to express yourself? (these are for general plagiarism not necessarily schoolwork)
As for the classwork part, its goal should be to ensure comprehension of the subject, not providing work for the sake of work. Why then, if you have comprehension of the subject matter, and can prove it if required, would it be a problem to not waste energy on busywork? If you copy the answers from someone else and then can’t show that you comprehend the subject on demand then you should get in trouble, not for using the resources available to you, but for lying about your own abilities.
The CBC interview with the creator of “The Secret Files of the Inquisition” here (22 minutes long) is good:
http://www.inquisitionproductions.com/creator.html
David @ 216
Nope. Here’s an article from August about it; 21 states still legalize smacking schoolchildren.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/20/corporal.punishment/
School administrators and teachers typically have a very limited understanding of the law, and what they do know isn’t often related to student rights. Try asking an elementary schoolteacher what FERPA is.
Re ads in WND: Preachers and snake-oil salesmen have always worked together.
Oh, I’d add this quote from the article — though reading the list of states allowing it you can likely guess:
FERPA, by the way, is the Family Education Rights and Privacy Act, and prohibits teachers from doing things like posting grades up publicly. Teachers violate it regularly, and last time I was on a schoolteacher forum less than half knew what it was.
@Diagoras #246
So spreading ideas is good when it’s hard to do but bad when it’s not? How does that work? What about ideas themselves have changed to allow for this moral change? What good is an idea created by someone just because they are able to own it to a world that doesn’t get to freely use it precisely because it is owned by someone else? Further, what justification other than greed could there possibly be for the owning of something that does not diminish, and in fact increases, in value when the most people can use it freely?
Posted by: wrpd | December 12, 2008
Re ads in WND: Preachers and snake-oil salesmen have always worked together.
Can you say “Marjoe”?
This really is Us VS Them. Zombies vs Rational. They’ve infiltrated our schools, universities, and homes…They must be stopped because the future of the human race is at stake.
I really am pessimistic about our continued existence. The religious virus must be stopped. I’m serious-
A quick Ctrl-F shows that this sentiment has been uttered at least three times already, but what the hell:
“Sometimes, I think public school administrators are the real enemy”
I’ve known that since junior high.
SC, OM @ 234
Which, of course, was a choice made in complete freedom.
Well, of course there were some choices… In Spain, they could decide to leave, with all their posesions behind… or pretend to be a catholic.
The Rothschild were proud that some of their ancerstors were “marranos” (pigs)… that is jews that pretend to be catholic… a very dangeours thing indeed…
And of course there were some forced conversion
In Mexico, the priest were proud because the could convert “thousands” natives in a day.. (of doubth they knew they had been converted).
But those ocupations were not (ussually) part of the duties of the inquisition.
The inquisition had all the single track mentality of a bureocracy. And it had the same inhumanity…
In Mexico, the two liberal priests (Hidalgo and Morelos) that started the independence, were judged by the inquisition, but it was the spanish goverment who was in charge of their execution.
It’s not. That’s why we have quotation indicators.
Putting what you have learned into your own words is how you demonstrate that you comprehend the subject matter. It’s not busywork; it’s the entire point of the exercise.
Joshua BA #247 wrote:
No, I was arguing that the main issue in student plagiarism shouldn’t be framed as ‘theft.’
Part of what’s involved in comprehending a subject is learning the skills to study, formulate, and organize its ideas on your own. Tests aren’t the only way to measure knowledge or ability.
Lee Picton @ 176
from the wikipedia.
In 2000 Pope John Paul II called for an “Inquisition Symposium” and opened the Vatican to 30 external historians. Their findings called into question certain long-held beliefs. It emerged that more women accused of witchcraft died in the Protestant countries than under the Inquisition. For example, the Inquisition burned 59 women in Spain, 36 in Italy and four in Portugal, while in Europe civil justice put to trial close to 100,000 women and burned 50,000 of them.[11][12] Some 26,000 persons condemned as witches died in Germany.
@Sastra
I apologize, I misread this line “I think you’re looking at this the wrong way: plagiarism as a kind of theft that hurts the victim.”
I saw the “as” as an “is”.
you DO get to use it, but you must give credit where credit is due. what harm is done by giving proper citations/credit?
the proprietary craze caused by Copyright as practiced by for-profit groups (limiting how, when and where something can be used) is something else than the right of a person to be credited with original ideas. there’s alternative ways of protecting intellectual property by giving credit where credit is due. Copyleft licenses are a good example of people voluntarily freeing their work from limitations, and the simple rule of providing citations does in NO way constrict the flow of information, either. citations actually increase the flow of information, the same way linking to articles does
I noticed this censorship myself. It would be interesting to know what their problem is.
Which was precisely my point. Your suggestion that it didn’t deal with Jews but only with Catholics or those who had converted was disingenuous, as the case of the Spanish Jewish woman discussed in the interview I linked to @ #248 and featured in the film makes clear.
This statement is essentially meaningless. The dialogue in the docudrama I linked to was taken entirely from the archives of the Inquisition. A bureaucracy is an organizational form of which Inquisitorial bodies had some features*. But the ends of any organization are determined by people.
*There are five central elements of a bureaucracy. I’d be happy to discuss them and their implications for morality as these have been proposed by historians and social scientists. But I will warn you that I do not believe that the crimes of the Inquisition (or those of the Nazis) can be laid on the doorstep of bureaucracy (if this is indeed your contention). These were crimes driven by religious and political-religious ideology.
So, if I understand this correctly, the moral problem with plagiarism is not that it harm the original creator, not that it is dishonest (though that can be a problem in certain specific situations), but something else entirely. The problem is that by not attributing the idea you are depriving the people you are conveying the idea to the opportunity to learn more?
If so (and even if not, I’m gonna use that as my reasoning anyway :)), I think I must change my stance on plagiarism not being morally wrong. It is not right to keep people in the dark and so it must be wrong to do so if the way to prevent it is as simple as adding quotes, an asterisk, and a footnote.
Thanks for the education.
Kyle:
Your students are fortunate to have an excellent teacher. My biology teacher (1964-1965) never mentioned the word evolution, and this was suppose to be one of the best high schools in America, in a wealthy Chicago suburb.
I wouldn’t take anything I read on Wikipedia about Catholicism or its history at face value. It seemed to me when I was reading the pages about some of the aspects of the Galileo affair that there were Catholics working to have information presented in a way biased in their direction. (I recall, for example, one statement about Bellarmino’s case being supported by the fact that Galileo didn’t have irrefutable evidence but wanted his ideas “to be taught,” as though he was in charge of some sort of national science standards. It was completely misleading. Since then I’ve suspected that there’s an organized effort by the Vatican on the Wikipedia front. I’m not saying I don’t think any information there is necessarily false, but I’m very skeptical.
I only read 30 comments before posting, so pardon me if this point has been made:
Mr. Bezy is the best kind of enemy the evolution camp can have. I wonder if he grasps the delicious irony that the brouhaha he made over this simple piece has resulted in many more thousands of people in Virginia seeing it. I suspect a few score, or hundreds, might have seen it in a high school magazine. Now both it and his idiocy on on display for the world forever.
Kudos to the Roanoke Times for publishing the kid’s essay.
and in addition, it is far more difficult to misrepresent something (quote-mining comes to mind) when the source is easily available. so the lack of citations/footnotes is a good sign of misinformation. but only as long as respect for providing the source is instilled in people in the first place.
Actually, it’s more a mixture of clumsy liberals who don’t understand what their doing and what conservative folks THINK the left wing practices as identity politics (and, of course, the right wing practices their own brand of identity politics).
I have just e-mailed Mr. Bezy to ask him and Brandon Creasy for permission to copy the article to show to my adult ed. class. We have just covered evolution and the article is much better than any of my students could have managed. Partly I want to give them something to aim towards.
I’m curious as to what the response will be.
Kyle in Arizona:
Keep up the good fight. You said your principal wasn’t aware of Dover? Please tell him, you Supt., the Asst. Supt. for (science) curriculum–if you have such a creature, and your school board members that they each have a professional obligation to familiarize themselves with the Kitzmiller case and read Judge Jones’ decision. Remind them that the Dover School dist. had to spend $1-million defending their own inanity.
Try to get some back-up from the Profs at Arizona, Arizona State, Northern Arizona, etc. They should care about the education of the students coming to them from your school.
After teaching physics 25 years,I was a vice-principal and principal for nearly 10. It is really painful to see the level of ignorance and venality exhibited by school administrators across the country.
nana huatzin #259
Sorry , I do not know how to post links but this is from the Mallaeus Malificarum website
I say again, you are taking an apologetic approach to the crimes of the church, using their own apologetics.
Richard Simons #270 wrote:
I take it you haven’t read the rest of the thread — you don’t need their permission, because Creasy plagiarized the paper. Post #155 has a link to the source, though there seems to be other places he may have stolen it from.
I don’t know if the principal has figured this out yet.
A bit harsh, Nick.
We are dealing with a 16 year old writing a little piece, and he has to be told about plagiarism, – the most common way to finish an essay in time when in high school and the essay is due in (usually) a matter of hours.
Never been there? Then you’re more disciplined than I ever was!
And it was MUCH easier before the days of the internet.
At later stages you just remembered to reference what you pinched, and not to use way too much of the stuff.
Well, if he answers the email, we’ll soon know, won’t we?;)
Posted by: shonny #274:
Me too. There were a couple of times I heard a teacher scold somebody for plagiarism; a college instructor warned her class that plagiarizers could get in serious trouble at work; but there was never any real punishment in the school environment.
Fortunately for the rest of the world, the rot is only in countries where religio-fascism flourish, i.e. USA, most Muslim ones, and a few other stragglers.
The rest of us, so far, are still on the side of rationalism.
We’ll do our bit to retain public sanity, but you have a helluva lot of work cut out for you.
So be fucking thankful for P.Z. and his minions, – the beacons of mental sanity in a sea of inanity.
I can’t say anything about wikipedia’s RCC entries. But fundie Liars for jesus constantly vandalize wikipedia entries about their various crimes and idiocy. The article on Xian Terrorists used to be OK but got sabotaged to the point where they claimed bomber-killer Eric Rudolph was an atheist instead of a Catholic. Some of the negative info about Phillip Johnson, Father of ID, was simply erased.
The article on Giordano Bruno was pretty good if short. They even linked to the Vatican archives which had a translation of his indictment.
Wikipedia is great but like any tool you have to know its strengths and weaknesses. If an article gets trashed too bad, sometimes they lock it.
shonny #274 wrote:
This wasn’t just a homework assignment. The 16 year old evidently submitted an “opinion” article to the school magazine, signed his own name to it, and claimed he wrote it. It wasn’t going to be graded and discarded, it was going to be read, discussed, and shown off by friends and family in the community. No, I’m guessing most of us have not “been there” for that kind of thing.
Am I wrong or isn’t there an apparant inverse relationship between corporal punishment in the US and academic achievement?
Sastra: you are right, I had not read the rest of the thread before asking Bezy if I could use the article. I’ve just sent off another e-mail in which I said I’d discovered it was largely copied from a web-page (I gave the link) and that, although I know it is acceptable in many high schools, amongst scientists it is considered highly improper unless the source is clearly given.
I should add that in the original e-mail I wrote a short paragraph to the effect that since discovering the arguments of IDers/creationists I’d been amazed at their ignorance and dishonesty, and that there is no viable alternative to the theory of evolution.
Richard Simons:
Nicely done. And now Principal Bezy most certainly knows the essay was plagiarized. I’m guessing that he sorely wishes he had checked for that before he became the poster child for anti-science scullduggery.
Aaron #57
I thought it was called the “McLibel” effect from the trial of the century in the UK in which MacDonald’s sued two activists for passing out leaflets in front a MacD’s in London. The leaflet ended up on the web and read by many millions (or billions?) than would ever have seen it otherwise. MacDonld’s “won” but the defendants had no assets to seize and had about $200 in their bank accounts between them. (Bloom County‘s Steve Dallas’ first rule of law” never, ever, ever, sue poor people”).
Anyway, po-tay-to, po-tah-to.
Dawn @18:
This is sad. A high school principal who is within few hours drive of many great universities…Virginia Tech, UVA for example…is spouting this nonsense. I guess he doesn’t want his students to attend these universities, but instead send them to Bob Jones.
They don’t have to go that far. Unfortunately also a short drive from Roanoke there is Liberty University.
George
@GodisLove and the nonsense of no one ever having died by converting to Christianity.
1.) Faith healers. If someone forgoes medical treatment in favor of someone in a big tent – there’s one.
2.) Christian Scientists and Jehovah’s Witnesses: one refuses medical treatment entirely and the other refuses blood transfusions.
3.) Holy Ghost people. This bunch throws poisonous snakes to each other at revival meetings in order to show their faith and trust in God™ to keep them safe.
4.) Apocalyptics. All of us remain at risk due to these lunatics’ desire to end the world. They think they can bring about the apocalypse by supporting/encouraging what they think are signs from revelations in world politics. Some see environmental catastrophe as such a sign. And apocalyptic people have held powerful positions within the government (although we hope Pres. elect Obama will put a stop to that. For your reference try reading: The Road to Environmental Apocalypse. To paraphrase Tommy Lee Jones (from a rather bad movie I’m afraid): “This operation will be deemed a failure if we all die!!“
Getting a little heavy here, so to introduce a light note: re post 146– The muslins have good reason to fear the torch.
Bob
Lee Picton @ 272
Please, do not missundertand me. I am not taking any crimes of the catholic church out, nor doing an apology on it.
I am just insists on blaming it of the correct crimes.
The main point is… the inquisition was formed to go after heretics, not witches. Along it´s cruel history, the inquisition ussually did not went after them.
The official position of the cahtolic church, has been to denied that witchcraft has real power, that was one of the reasons that “Malleus Maleficarum” was not aproved by the catholic church. Although it was very popular.
In the files of the inquisition, you will find that witches ussually received corporal punishment and were order to pray but the inquisitors only went further if the witch had any heretical belief.
Unfortunatelly you will not find any complete edition of the “index” in the web. There seems a french site that haves it, but i have not been able to enter.
http://www.union-fin.fr/~bcourcel/LivresInterdits.html
I know that wikipedia is not always trusthworty in some areas. There is really an error in the date in which the books was supossed to be banned, and since everybody only links to the wikipedia article, there seems nothing online to resolve it, but so far this is no my concern. since history of religion is one of my hobbies, so i have sources not available in internet like this book i have:
“Historia de los heterodoxos españoles” by Marcelino Menendez, published in 1880. This books really is an apology to the work of the inquisition… and details all the ideas that should be prosecuted… and not a word about witchcraft.
On the other hand, you should also read the disclaimer at the site you posted:
http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/
Neither Wicasta or Christie claim to be experts on the subject of the Malleus Maleficarum, and have never presented themselves as such.
The consensus between scholar really is that the malleus maleficarum was forbiden by the catholic church and not used OFICIALLY.
Search and read about the actitudes of the catholic church about witchcraft, it is an interesting reading.
If I found a source that would satisfy you i would put it on this thread.
Bob Carroll:
Getting a little heavy here, so to introduce a light note: re post 146– The muslins have good reason to fear the torch.
That’s what Flamort is for.
I have also heard of numerous examples of foreign trained students being caught plagiarising and having very little concept that they’ve done anything wrong. – LisaJ
Well, said they didn’t, anyway. When you’re caught, then if outright denial won’t work, surely “I didn’t realise it was wrong” is going to be the next line of defence.
In my stint as a university lecturer, by far the worst experience was dealing with plagiarism – by about 1/3 of a first-year class. The crazy thing is that this was for a course that wouldn’t even count toward the final degree assessment. The point of the assignment was to discover who had understood the material, and what misunderstandings there were among the rest, so these could be remedied. The plagiarism wasn’t even well done (at least, among those I detected). Almost all the students were British, and I got the “didn’t realise it was wrong” crap from them.
I’m amazed that a few people here don’t seem to see systematic dishonesty in an academic context as a problem. And no, I’ve never plagiarised anything.
Nick Gotts,
True, this could definitely be part of the problem.
That is crazy! That’s a big percentage – pretty disheartening. I’ve never plagiarised either. It’s something I’ve always known to steer clear away from and be really careful with. Yes, I also don’t understand how one has a hard time seeing what the problem is with this type of academic fraud.
as someone mentioned above, hazelwood v. kuhlmeier (1988) rather specifically grants the principal of a public school the right to censor publications that have the school’s name on them. over, i might add, anything. that particular case involved articles that would have related to sex-ed.
sadly, students do not have the right to publish whatever they wish in the school newspaper, regardless of the accuracy of the questioned article. the principal is entirely within his rights to censor student publications because of the public image they might present. even if the particular concern is a rather retarded and counter-legal concern.
students, however, are also within their rights to make their voices heard on the matter in other ways. the case itself is primarily concerned with publications that appear to bear the stamp of approval of the school. other forms of student speech, that are not sponsored by the school, and that are non-disruptive to class are entirely protected.
@291, so the principle can censor material which is required by the standards. It gives the people the impression that we are teaching them what is required to be taught to them. Hrmph!
I am not deprived of anything if someone uses my ideas for their own.
That’s another way of saying your ideas haven’t been worth anything.
Speaking as someone who once casually tossed an idea out, and saw someone else make $24 million off it, you’re so wrong you can’t even see wrong from where you are.
@292: yes. i agree, it’s rather stupid. but the principal can censor anything, for any reason, when the schools name or logo is displayed atop of the publication. including stuff that’s actually in the school cirriculum.
MP2K:
Out of curiosity, I checked the Web Archive, and I see that a version of that page, in slightly different format, has been up on that site since at least 1997, with a 1996 copyright.
Re: plagiarism in general: One of the previous times that plagiarism came up (possibly about the Han and Warda paper in Proteomics), someone said that Chinese were so accustomed to commit plagiarism because of the strong respect for ancestral scholars (or words to that effect); they didn’t want to change the words that those elder sages had chosen.
And my response was (and still is), how the hell is it respectful to exactly copy someone else’s words without any attribution whatsoever?
And I think that the basic integrity of providing attribution applies to the ancient world, as well as now; I disagree with temporal relativism in this regard. Yes, now we have things like quotation marks and footnotes and so on, but even back then, honest scholars did indeed provide attribution; I’ve seen plenty of translations that state things like : (Scholar) X (of Y) said Z. If they hadn’t been scrupulous about attribution whenever they knew it, at least some part of the time, there are a lot of scholars’ names that we would not otherwise know. And I think even back then, they would have agreed that it was fundamentally dishonest to put your name on someone else’s work, and pass it off as your own.
@… well… some large number of professors, etc. commenting on plagiarism:
Perhaps if our schools ceased requiring that students regurgitate, verbatim, those things which they are taught, it might be easier for them to produce original material when called upon. Exactly how does the educational system foster original writing/research when an educator can frequently require more pages of sourcing than they do content? If you demonstrate to your student that you wish to see nothing new, they’re going to provide you with precisely that.
It might also help if we’d cease asking them to rephrase ideas which have been discussed for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. There are only so many ways one can re-write material from a given pool of sources – unless the student is adding something to the literature, there are numerous other, more effective methods of encouraging them to learn.
This is in no way an *excuse* for plagiarism (for the modern definition of “excuse”), but rather a possible explanation as to WHY students plagiarise the works of others. They’re exhausted from a courseload requiring more classes than hours in a day (lest they remain in college for even one more ridiculously expensive term) and are frequently burned out long before graduation – why, exactly, are educators incapable of seeing the forest?
This will all go away if we pay more taxes. It’ll improve even more if the people taxed are rich!
Ironically, this simplistic jingo (with revisions) sums up the Libertarian argument perfectly!
OK, everyone, Hatfield chiming in again. Apparently, quite a few people in Roanoke, Virginia fail to realize the debt that they owe to science bloggers in uncovering plagirarism.
With that in mind, there have been developments on that front, which you can read about here
Posted by: GodIsLove | December 12, 2008 11:05 AM
Abiogenesis is not a theory Nerd, its a belief system which actively denies God’s role in creation.
*buzzer sound* WRONG!
First, “nerd” is not capitalized. That is not a proper noun, or is it at the beginning of a sentence. Epic fail on grammar.
Second, you need to figure out what a theory is. A theory is different from a belief. A theory has been scientifically proven in a number of cases. Hence, the Theory of Electromagnetism, the Quantum Theory, the THEORY OF GRAVITY… etc. Get a clue. And a dictionary. Epic fail, again.
Third, abiogenesis is not a “belief” system. Ascribing to “god” is a belief system. Experiments have shown that with the right combination of proteins, enzymes, and other chemicals in a primordial pool, with a good ol’ zap of lightning, you can recreate the chemical necessary to start producing more complex molecules that eventually lead to cells, and from cells, to complex organisms (or simple-minded organisms, like yourself). All of these were found on life shortly after it formed. It’s not a question of if life formed this way – it’s a question of how early it formed this way. But try not to let the facts stand in the way of your blather, k? God forbid you think with your own brain and your own ideas, and live with us here in the empirical world, rather than off somewhere in Oz. Or, better yet, if you’re going to live there, STAY there. Epic fail, AGAIN.
TheEngima32, quite so – except you missed that Nerd is a proper noun referring to Nerd of Redhead, one of the regular commenters. (He’s a scientist, the Redhead is his SO).
Oops! Sorry, my bad. No ill feelings or ruffled feathers, I hope.
Problems of School Teachers Print, Read and Circulate
New methods of teaching imposed by politicians are good for traumatised pupils but cannot be used with pupils having high self esteem.
Theory of play /bridging the gap in pedagogy leads to chaotic situation in many classrooms
Group work in the classroom not adapted to individual evaluation of pupils at exams level. Group work also leads to copying and later gang formation.
Noise from pupils in the classroom on teacher’s mental health .
No psychological unit to help in teacher’s mental health
In some schools teachers must buy white board markers from their salary
No remuneration for Classroom Pedagogical Work done at home (correction of exercise books, preparation of teaching aids, daily lessons notes, research work, etc ).
No distance allowance for teachers who always work far from their home while some always works in schools around their houses
With the concept of performance management those teachers who works around their houses are deemed to be more performant than those who works far from their houses, what about those teachers who works with difficult hyperactive pupils
In some schools teachers are not allowed to use school computers to type continuous evaluation questionnaires and to do research work.
Indiscipline of pupils in the classroom (The problem No 1 of Education which many deny)
Verbal abuse, insults from pupils, parents, Assaults from pupils and parents on teachers.
Teachers are blamed for misbehaviour of pupils (some say bad classroom management)???
Teachers are blamed for bad exams result.
Teachers should be provided with Mobile Camera Phone to gather evidence of some pupil’s misbehaviour before confrontation with parents who never blame their kids.
Teachers are blamed as having bad classroom management after reporting indiscipline pupils.
Teachers can also be sued for damage by parents if they report indiscipline pupils at school without evidence (same for CPE exams Invigilation).
Absence of Legal Support for teachers from Ministry of Education in police case.
Refusal of vacation leave for teachers due to exigencies of service.
High Teacher / Pupil ratio and no assistant teacher like in other countries despite a similar pedagogy imposed by politicians.
Internal fight with colleagues to get upper primary classrooms to benefit private tuition in Mauritius.
Abuse from hierarchy on young teachers to help in cognate duties which are never recorded in the young teacher’s file.
Though remunerated civil servants Teachers in Mauritius must give private tuition using cramming pedagogy methods to get good exams result. Why not allow the same cramming method used in private tuition in formal school hours??
Music in schools will create discotheques addicts in the future .
Teachers are still using Corporal Punishment and Shouting (verbal abuse) for the intellectual benefit of pupils despite severe laws. Are they Fools??? why are they jeopardising their career for kids.
The Ministry of Education of Mauritius wants teachers to work as professionals, So let us all teachers work like the over qualify professionals teachers of America, Europe, etc and so whatever be the RESULT on EXAMS and on society.
Teachers and Parent Teachers Association must Beg for sponsors in order to please the imposed activities of the Ministry of Education new pedagogy.
Note in many countries despite their full time psychological help in school, their school are in a chaotic situation, may be politicians want the same .
From Mr Christian Yow Sang and others
A primary school teacher since 1991 with
Addr 105 Ligne Berthaud Vacoas Mauritius Island mob 230 7543073 230 7756330
E-Mail cyowsang@gmail.com
The new pedagogy wants your child to become Hyperactive and later you become dependant on psychologists
TYPE ‘’christian yow sang’’ and search on the Internet PRINT , READ and CIRCULATE
Pls send above in all Internet Links
Education is the only field where despite more money is put in yearly, there is a downfall in the result obtained and noone wants to see the solution which is the use of the stick on pupils and the use of old methods of teachings