It is finished.
I wonder how many of our Catholic friends have heard of the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215? This is the event where many of their important dogmas were codified, including the ideas of Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, that the Eucharist was the sacrament that only properly ordained priests of the Catholic church could give, and that the Jews were a pariah people, who could hold no public office, had to pay a special Jew tax for their right to exist, and were required to wear special clothing to distinguish them from Christians. The yellow badge marking the Juden was not an invention of the Nazis, but a decree by faithful Catholics in the Middle Ages. That’s an interesting juxtaposition, that a symbol of Christian exceptionalism was formalized at the same time that they formally decreed the Jews to be inferior, and a target of hatred.
That combination was useful, too. Declare something cheap, disposable, and common to be imbued with magic by the words of a priest, and the trivial becomes a powerful token to inflame the mob — why, all you have to do is declare a bit of bread to be the most powerful and desirable object in the world, and even if it isn’t, you can pretend that the evil other is scheming to deprive the faithful of it. Now you could invent stories of Jews and witches taking the communion host to torture, to make Jesus suffer even more, and good Catholics would of course rise in horror to defend their salvation. None of the stories were true, of course — Jews and infidels see no power at all in those little crackers, and the idea that they were obsessing over obtaining a non-sacred, powerless, pointless relic is ludicrous — but heck, it’s a cheap excuse to make accusations illustrated by cheesy woodcuts of hook-nosed Jews hammering nails into communion wafers and lurid tales of blood-spurting crackers and hosts that pulsed like and beating heart, and thereby providing a pretext to encourage massacres.
The first recorded accusation was made in 1243 at Berlitz, near Berlin. As a consequence all the Jews of Berlitz were burned on the spot, which was subsequently called Judenberg. Another famous case that took place in 1290, in Paris, was commemorated in the Church of the Rue des Billettes and in a local confraternity. In 1370 in Brussels, the charge of host desecration, long celebrated in a special fest and depicted in artistic relics in the Church of St. Gudule, led to the extermination of the Jews of the city. The case of 1337, at Deggendorf, still celebrated locally as “Deggendorf Gnad”, led to a series of massacres across the region. In 1510, at Knoblauch, near Berlin, 38 Jews were executed and more expelled from Brandenburg. The alleged host desecration in 1410, at Segovia, was said to have brought about an earthquake, and as a result, the local synagogue was confiscated and leading Jews were executed; the event continues to be celebrated as a local feast of Corpus Christi. Similar accusations, resulting in extensive persecution of Jews, were brought forward in 1294, at Laa, Austria; 1298, at Röttingen, near Würzburg, and at Korneuburg, near Vienna; 1299, at Ratisbon; 1306, at St. Pölten; 1325, at Cracow; 1330, at Güstrow; 1338, at Pulkau; 1388, at Prague; 1399, at Posen; 1401, at Glogau; 1420, at Ems; 1453, at Breslau; 1478, at Passau; 1492, at Sternberg, in Mecklenburg-Schwerin; 1514, at Mittelberg, in Alsace; 1558, at Sochaczew, in Poland. The last Jew burned for stealing a host died in 1631, according to Jacques Basnage, quoting from Manasseh b. Israel. Casimir IV. of Poland (1447).
That is the true power of the cracker, this silly symbol of superstition. Fortunately, Catholicism has mellowed with age — the last time a Catholic nation rose up to slaughter its non-Christian citizenry was a whole 70 years ago, after all — but the sentiment still lingers. Catholicism has been actively poisoning the minds of its practitioners with the most amazing bullshit for years, and until recently, I had no idea that a significant number of people actually believed this nonsense, or that the hatred was still simmering there, waiting for an opportunity to rise up in misplaced defense of absurdity.
All of the regular readers have seen it — thousands of mindless comments by Catholics, demanding that no harm come to a cracker. My email is melting down with swarms of insults, threats, pleas, and promises of prayers because I
Mark Sutton is representative of the majority of my email. No threats, at least, but instead he simply takes for granted an astonishing piece of insanity.
Professor Myers,
I was saddened to hear of your plans to harm our Lord Jesus Christ.
It obviously isn’t the first time and it won’t be the last.
I know you do not believe, but what if it truly is Jesus that you are attempting to hurt?
You are in my prayers.
You would not believe how many people are writing to me, insisting that these horrible little crackers (they look like flattened bits of styrofoam) are literally pieces of their god, and that this omnipotent being who created the universe can actually be seriously harmed by some third-rate liberal intellectual at a third-rate university (the diminution of my vast powers is also a common theme).
Jim Nicholson cranks up the crazy even more. Not many accused me of being a freemason — I’ve got lots that call me a Jew, which is illuminating given the history of this issue — and I cringe at the thought of a circumcised heart. But yeah, this kind of angry rant is fairly common, too.
You must be the devil himself as even he knows the power in the Holy Eucharist (don’t you dare disparage the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by calling Him Who died for you a cracker!). You must be a freemason, or just a very sick man who needs healing and believe me, I will pray for your conversion. Pray you live to see that day so you can ask Him to forgive you and your uncircumcised heart. Just the mere thought of desecrating the Holy Eucharist is enough to get one into hell, but, maybe that is, for now, the horrible place you are aiming for. I dare you to read about Our Lady of Fatima and the accounts of hell as the three children saw, then, maybe you will change you sick mind. God forgive you. However, it was great that you got many people praying for your conversion since you showed the world how sick you are, and maybe God will convert your hard heart. Pity you. From a lay evangelist who prays for you and the rest of this sick world of secular humanists.
Another common theme has been the attempt to turn away the desecration of a Catholic symbol into the desecration of an Islamic symbol. Obviously, it’s not desecration they find disagreeable — it’s the idea that someone would offend their weird sectarian sensibilities. Here’s one from Jack Isaacks that fits the mold.
Dear Professor Meyers,
If you REALLY want to do a courageous, revolutionary act, defecate publicly on a copy of the Quran.
Or do you have the cojones?
Christians won’t attack you for desecrating a host, but will those wonderful cuddly peace-loving Muslims be as forbearing if you used their book for a toilet?
Well, how brave are you?
Yeah, right. Catholics won’t attack me, but Muslims will. Never mind that the Catholic League demands that I be fired, thousands of Catholics write to me demanding I be kicked out of the university immediately, and that they send me death threats, both the explicit kind and the vaguely menacing kind. Let’s not forget Webster Cook, who started this all by simply walking back to his seat with a cracker, and now faces censure and possible expulsion from his university. Oh, those Catholics sure are forbearing and tolerant.
And since I mentioned yesterday that I was taking my oldest son to the movies, these good Catholics have leapt to the opportunity. Since I’m not demonstrating any fear over their threats against me, well hey, let’s try a new target! KJ Atkins of Bellarmine University thinks cowardly warnings against my family might be effective.
You fool, the vengeance for your sacrilege will not be . exhausted against you, but it will be carried out on your child. Wait and see.
Oh, I’m sorry, KJ. I’m only impressed by significant material concerns, and yours and other slanders against my family (I’m looking at you, Miki Tracy, the despicable person who thinks making up lies about my father might be persuasive) are not going to convince me of anything other than that religion breeds the most disgustingly vile haters in our country, and that Catholicism fits right in with the rest. I will note, however, that since Bill Donohue tried to get CAIR to join him in his crusade, I have gotten no email from outraged Muslims, over a span of time in which I’ve received thousands of Catholic hate mail messages.
If you want to see the deep danger of religion, you have to read this comment from Isaac.
As a Christian it is an insult for anyone to call my beliefs stupid shit. I have respected every religion and every idea for years.
Ah, what a beautiful illustration of the complete open mind — utterly undiscriminating, lacking any criteria for acceptance, simply blissfully and uncritically according every idea his full respect. Although, of course, it’s also a lie: Isaac does not regard every idea as equally deserving, since he clearly considers the atheist idea that the sacraments of his faith are empty foolishness to be an outrage. Rather, what he loves is the idea that everyone else must respect his beliefs, no matter what they are, and that any disagreement is an insult. This is exactly the kind of uncritical, unskeptical, nonjudgmental idiocy all religions seek to promulgate, because they all know that if we tore off the blinders of tradition and artificiality and mindless etiquette, we’d see right through their lies. Respect every idea! Especially mine! And if you find the idea that this cracker is a god stupid, why, you must be disrespectful and no gentleman!
For even deeper inanity, let’s not forget the Catholic blogs! We’re talking some serious derangement there: look at Mark Shea’s reaction.
I won’t mince words. Myers is an evil man. And as evil men, particularly evil intellectuals, tend to be, he is also a mad man as are most of his acolytes and followers.
Myers and Co. are enmeshed in these lies because they have chosen evil. It is evil–archetypally evil–to desecrate the Eucharist. It’s the sort of stuff archetypal bad guys in the movies do. It’s completely unnecessary gratuitous evil.
To the Mark Shea’s of the world, I would say…it’s just a cracker.
I think if I were truly evil, I would have to demand that all of my acolytes be celibate, but would turn a blind eye to any sexual depravities they might commit. If I wanted to be an evil hypocrite, I’d drape myself in expensive jeweled robes and live in an ornate palace while telling all my followers that poverty is a virtue. If I wanted to commit world-class evil, I’d undermine efforts at family planning by the poor, especially if I could simultaneously enable the spread of deadly diseases. And if I wanted to be so evil that I would commit a devastating crime against the whole of the human race, twisting the minds of children into ignorance and hatred, I would be promoting the indoctrination of religion in children’s upbringing, and fomenting hatred against anyone who dared speak out in defiance.
I’m sorry to say that I only aspire to be a teeny-tiny bit evil, and my target is a handful of virtually inedible crackers in my possession. It’s not much, and all I can say in my defense is…it’s a start. A very small start. I’m going to need lots and lots of people to rise up and follow suit, subjecting old, dishonest institutions of hardened dogma to our chief weapon of ridicule and deris…our two weapons of ridicule, derision and laughter…no, three weapons of ridicule, derision, laughter, and skeptici…oh, never mind. You know what I mean. Get to work.
OK, time for the anticlimax. I know some of you have proposed intricate plans for how to do horrible things to these crackers, but I repeat…it’s just a cracker. I wasn’t going to make any major investment of time, money, or effort in treating these dabs of unpleasantness as they deserve, because all they deserve is casual disposal. However, inspired by an old woodcut of Jews stabbing the host, I thought of a simple, quick thing to do: I pierced it with a rusty nail (I hope Jesus’s tetanus shots are up to date). And then I simply threw it in the trash, followed by the classic, decorative items of trash cans everywhere, old coffeegrounds and a banana peel. My apologies to those who hoped for more, but the worst I can do is show my unconcerned contempt.
By the way, I didn’t want to single out just the cracker, so I nailed it to a few ripped-out pages from the Qur’an and The God Delusion. They are just paper. Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything. God is not great, Jesus is not your lord, you are not disciples of any charismatic prophet. You are all human beings who must make your way through your life by thinking and learning, and you have the job of advancing humanity’s knowledge by winnowing out the errors of past generations and finding deeper understanding of reality. You will not find wisdom in rituals and sacraments and dogma, which build only self-satisfied ignorance, but you can find truth by looking at your world with fresh eyes and a questioning mind.
GREAT POST, PZ!
It has no comedic value what-so-ever. Completely spot on and well written. In a perfect world this would be a great thought and debate generator. I unfortunately know (not on faith) that this won’t be the case. I hope you can increase your server capacity geometrically, you’re gonna need it!
I’d like to thank all the religionists for coming out in true, hypocritical style (as always). Looking forward to reading more wackaloonery (sort of). Let’s hope they remember, according to their books, that GOD is to be the judge.
I will continue to be a loyal reader, evolutionist, free thinker and good writing/blog supporter (especially for Pharyngula).
PZ, you have the support of many. The hate that this may bring you from others will only grow your voice louder and grant you the ability to reach more people.
Best wishes and total support,
Rob from Calgary, Alberta, Canada
P.S. This was a missed opportunity for a positive environmental impact. You should have recycled everything or at least recycled the nail and added the paper, coffee, banana, etc. to your back yard composter. If you don’t have one, get one. Great for the garden and environment.
Well PZ, from the looks of this crowd and your actions, your creating a great world for your son to live in- you should be a proud father- quite the role model you are- bravo
Very easy to use profanity to mock what you do not understand and not consider any other perspective. It just doesn’t show you to be a person of good will. Our creator wishes all humanity to be people of good will.
As for your comment “If I wanted to be an evil hypocrite, I’d drape myself in expensive jeweled robes and live in an ornate palace while telling all my followers that poverty is a virtue. “, you should consider another perspective:
http://www.rev-know-it-all.com/2008/2008—01-13.html
1000GET
Great picture. Can we have a high-res image if we want to make it our desktop?
Now if I only hold out for a few minutes, I might be post #1000…
Boy is my arm tired from playing WHACK-A-TROLL and GOD-BOP-IT.
How about a Jesus joke to lighten things up?
Q: What’s the difference between Jesus and a painting?
A: It only takes one nail to hang a painting.
“Here’s a better one. How did he get that nail through the “cracker’ without it fragmenting? The communion hots are very brittle as anyone familiar with them knows.”
From what I remember (long time ago), they’re actually somewhat pliable. When I put one in my mouth and bit down with my molars*, it wouldn’t shear in two, at least not without being forced by the tongue. I think if you had a decently sharp nail and used a twisting motion, you could get a hole in there. But I suppose YWMV.
I also wish PZ had put the wafer against the coffee grounds so that it would stand out more. I had to look a couple times before I found it.
* I was never taught not to chew it as some other commenters here have attested, if I had been, I think I may have found atheism even sooner.
I just like to say here that in the thread “Fresh thread” I hoped he desecrated the god delusion…
Quite predictable, in the end. Too bad it was though, I could use James Randi’s 1.000.000 dollars.
Warren,
He said “must”. That word is the imperative. The question is: an imperative for who? and why?
How can you have an imperative when you deny a source for imperatives?
Nothing must be held sacred is a creed. It’s a religious statement. But he can’t have it both ways… Religious screeds against religion are inherently hypocritical…
1215 was the year that set up all the massacres and expulsions in the centuries that followed.
And despite the fact that “people have gotten much more civilized over the centuries”, Catholics are STILL ACTING CRAZY OVER A CRACKER. YOU are doing it RIGHT NOW.
Randy Stimpson, “Even evolution ???”
Of course, and if you are honest, the exceptional and massive level of evidence will persuade you that evolution did, is, and will continue to occur.
—–
In after Dawkins and 1000 get
Thy will be done!
1Nil.
Have perused 300+ comments re: this thread and have not seen this suggestion (forgive if it has already been made):
Slugs just LOVE banana peels and coffee grounds in any good organic garden. Prefer these foodstuffs over your ripening tomatoes on the vines above. Not knowing their liking for “crackers”, let’s do an experiment in the best tradition of Chas. Darwin:
go out tonight and collect several slugs (the slimey kind, not the lead kind) and put em in with the accumulated items in the trash can. See what is left after, say, 24 hours or so. Do they prefer godly flesh, or not? Do they get transfigured? Resurrected?
Who knows, there might be a phD project in here someplace.
“By the way, here’s an FYI for those who blame AIDS on the Catholic Church – if everyone in the world followed Catholic teaching on chastity, AIDS would not exist. So if you want to put an end to AIDS, just convince everyone in the world to convert to Catholicism, and get all of the liberal Catholics to return to orthodoxy.”
Seriously?!?!? I call Poe. I can’t tell if it’s real…
My brain asploded. I’m getting off this thread and doing some real science. Seriously.
In other words, PZ’s little gesture is utterly empty, meaningless, and ineffectual, right? No harm done to God and/or Jesus, correct? We all agree on this, yes?
So what the hell are all of you Catholics so up in arms over, then?
JRQ 980 actually the Catholic opposition to what you mention in your post is the moral highground.
“opposition to birth control, divorce, abortion, stem cell research, all of which are irrational, deeply immoral, and DO materially affect me?”
I cannot believe you would have the sinful unholiness to desecrate a copy of the majestic writings of Professor Richard Dawkins, may Google watch over him and keep him informed forever.
We’re gonna come after you, boy. You don’t mess with atheists.
We’re gonna swing around there to your house, phoning first to see if you’re home or entertaining company. We’re gonna walk right up to your door and ring your doorbell. Twice. Maybe three times, if we think that maybe you were out back and didn’t hear it the first couple of times. A knocking might be deemed appropriate.
When you answer that door, if you dare, we’re going to direct strongly toned words at you. We’re going to be stern. We’re going to invite you to a debate on the issue.
That’s right.
A debate.
We’ll go there.
And then afterward if you are not very convincing we will sit around having ice cream and coffee discussing how silly you are and you will not be invited!!!
So watch it, buddy. Watch it.
Remember: Love the theist, hate the theism!
Well done, PZ! (Just adding my 2 cents to the chorus of cheers)
Hitler may have first come for the communists, and finished with the Jews, but in America, in the west,they are starting with anyone who stands against the emerging Culture of Death, and quit frankly….only the Catholic church truly stands against them.
“First they came for the crackers, and I said nothing since I was not a cracker…” How ironic, since the Catholic Church said nothing against Hitler when he came for the Jews, Communists, trade unionists, gays…
Hey PZ- this is how it works- you push the rock over the ledge and let everyone else deal with the damage. You just sit back and read huh? COWARD-
Feel free to tear up a bit of the God Delusion. Just don’t mess with the Origin of the Species. The book of Origin is sacred. Hallowed are the Ori.
I think one of the interesting consequences of the hierarchical attribution of culpability for wrongdoing is that it engenders such pointless disputes over the religiosity of a handful of people in the 20th century.
Whether Hitler was a follower of a zombie, Thor, or rather disavowed the supernatural altogether does little to place responsibility for genocide on materialism. Even if the whole exercise wasn’t motivated by some weak appeal to the consequence of belief, Hitler himself didn’t commit the Holocaust: it was an effort by innumerable inhabitants from multiple nations with different backgrounds, the majority of which were superstitious people.
I suppose it is inconvenient for the mages among us that the very defects of human cognition that permit them to make appeals to popularity when justifying their cantrips, are the same defects that warrant no surprise when it is realized that activities that require a large number of participants are made up of the same sort.
Of course the point of the exercise itself is misguided, because such high-level activities as the eradication of subpopulations of humanity do not follow from materialism, and even if they did, it would not change nature. As if we could stare down an abyss if we wanted to!
The whole enterprise serves to obfuscate societal defects with some inane cosmic scoreboard. As if we shouldn’t expect ever-higher death tolls in the presence of orders of magnitude differences in populations when the same barbaric tribalism plays itself out in subsequent generation that have populations orders of magnitude larger–populations that are dependent upon elaborate technologies to even maintain. If some bumbling materialists or bumbling supernaturalists disrupt the precarious infrastructure that enables billions of humans to coexist on this planet with a grand plan for homogeneity, you can expect your scorecard to jump drastically in one direction or other, and with the number of you with imaginary friends outnumbering those without, I would not want to be playing at such games.
However it is the readiness to bestow great powers and authority on the mythical hero and villain that finds us constantly arguing over minutiae to divine the true thoughts of one or two people, who ultimately serve as little more than icons. You shouldn’t care if Hitler talked to voices in his head, but rather why we humans are such conformist dipshits eager to be ruled over by kings; imaginary or otherwise.
I find it hilarious that the religionutters continue to claim that their crazy ideas should be given respect and reverence when they accord any ideas not their own (and those that hold them) with hatred, violence and derision. Yet they claim to be unbiased, unbigoted and caring for all people. Ah the bigotry and malice of the religious fanatic, a wonder to behold for the sheer irrationality of it.
Kudos PZ, I think it’s about time that people in America stopped walking on eggshells to preserve the opinions of those that hate anyone that does not subscribe to their own ignominious cult.
I’ve always found it profoundly disappointing that so many people are unwilling to have the courage and personal integrity to distance themselves from such hateful, violent cults, and instead embrace the much more difficult path of wonder that lies in exploring the vast and innumerable intricacies of the natural world (accessible only by reasoned and intelligent thought, rather than pathetic ancient mythologies).
Incredibly amusing is the fact that most of them fundamentally do not understand anything about ethics, or would immediately distance themselves from inherently unethical organizations such as the Catholic Church and other such cults.
Up till now, I think I had the idea in the back of my mind that most Catholics regarded the transubstantiation doctrine as just one of those silly things that the church teaches, that they don’t really believe but they go along with it so as not to offend their grandmother. And maybe most of them do feel that way, I don’t know. But here we have supposedly adult people claiming with a presumably straight face that they actually believe “as a Catholic” that the wafer really is somehow transformed into the Body of Our Lord by some Mystery that they can only Accept On Faith and therefore it is up to the rest of us to respect that belief. How the heck am I supposed to respect such a ludicrous belief? The best I can hope to do is keep my mouth shut when I am around Catholics on their own turf, and stay out of their churches. (I have no plan to join the teeming throngs of thousands of atheists who are going to descend upon every Mass to desecrate their Holy Objects.) Hopefully that’s all they ask.
But if I catch anyone being rude to a Cheez-it there will be hell to pay!
Rayven Alandria@972,
Very well said.
Nicole @1015
No, it’s real. I went to a very, very conservative Catholic school and that is exactly what I was taught. See, if every one followed the teachings of the catholic church, the world would be a happy place with rainbows and butterflies and unicorns prancing all around.
There once was a silly old cracker
That had some Catholic backers
It symbolized flesh
Until PZ got fresh
Now it’s munched on by atheist snackers.
I have hope in spite of your actions. Us crazy cracker worshipping freaks and others like us are just going to continue outbreeding your ilk. So go ahead and spew your hatred and your desire that we hold nothing sacred. But we will continue to do so. And we will soon outnumber your kind.
Rayven Alandria!!!! Long time no see! Sorry to see MajorBytes sell atheists.com to the Turkish hackers…but I’m working on something to fill the gap. Look to the old yahoo atheistsdotcom group to get my email addy and send me a line and I’ll pass along what I’m up to.
Not a single outraged Christian has so much as attempted to address the points laid out in PZ’s essay, which pretty much makes their outrage impotent. Catholics: you have not been persecuted. You are not the victim of a hate crime. You have had your religion criticized; both verbally and in symbolic action, intelligently and with due consideration, and you have not responded with anything approaching a rational argument.
It’s “salt of the Earth” sheep like you that have always been responsible for the greatest ruin. Even if Hitler was secretly an atheist, it was good Christian folk who carried out his orders. I hope you all take your false outrage, bruised vanity, substanceless whining, false piety, and medieval ignorance and seriously grow the fuck up. Learn to think for yourselves instead of feeling so sorry for yourselves. Have the strength to abandon superstition and stop confusing ignorance with knowledge. Ah, wasted words. If you had any salvageable sense you wouldn’t be the ignorant masses that you are. The fact that you can’t see you are deluded is what makes you so deluded.
#972 Some of us even hate each other.
You seem to pretty much have the hate thing down
Posted by: chicago | July 24, 2008 6:07 PM
_________________________________________
Yep, and some of us are quite honest about it. I don’t run around claiming to love people and spout passive agressive shit like “I’ll pray for you”, when in truth I can’t stand them.
I am full of hatred towards certain kinds of people. I don’t see that as a negative trait. I respect your right to feel that it is a negative trait though. The world won’t end if we disagree.
Thus spake Fr. J:
Yes, indeed. For a holocaust revisionist like you, I’d recommend Betrayal: German Churches and the Holocaust, by Ericksen and Heschel, and Hitler’s Priests, by Kevin Spicer.
I enjoy Fr. J’s posts simply for the irony of reading a lecture about blasphemy from a man impersonating a priest.
BobC, when are you going to throw away your atheism because of what Mao did? Or do you deny that Mao was an atheist, just like the absurd claims that Hitler was a Catholic? Everyone remembers that Hitler murdered 6 million Jews, but everyone seems to forget about his 3 million Polish Catholic victims. Whoops?
To John L. @ 998
You said: In reality, Hitler was “raised Catholic” but rejected the vast majority of the teachings of the faith as he got older.
I say: Which teachings? Hitler professing Catholicism and Christianity to the end of his days.
You said: Huh, just like many atheists! Fancy that.
I say: Actually, many atheists rejected fewer of the teachings of the church than did Hitler; atheist community activists, atheists donating to the poor, atheists protectng the freedom of speech (a lot of times, the speech of religious persons). Fact is, you can’t find any atheist who proclaims that his/her atheism allows mass murder and atrocity. You can’t.
You said: By the way, here’s an FYI for those who blame AIDS on the Catholic Church – if everyone in the world followed Catholic teaching on chastity, AIDS would not exist. So if you want to put an end to AIDS, just convince everyone in the world to convert to Catholicism, and get all of the liberal Catholics to return to orthodoxy.
I say: If we all became Catholic, the thousands of buggering priests would continue to be protected by the hierarchy of the Church, and would spread AIDS to both male and female children.
John, I am the son of a minister, and your tone is hateful, your analogies specious, and your view of human nature far uglier than anything I have found promulgated by atheists.
But don’t stop talking, whatever you do! Smarmy, self-righteous, lying religionists such as you do more for atheism than Harris, Dawkins, or Myers.
Yeah, have fun with that, or whatever. However, I doubt any reasonable court in the land would buy your claim that my calling you a ‘prick’ strengthened your support for a genocidal institution. The strength of your ‘faith’ is on your own head.
But I wouldn’t go gloating about how clean my language is if I were you; after all, you do wash it out with your own blood-stained hands, do you not?
I used to think stunts like this were cool. Then, I turned 12 and started to grow up. I think this is simply a childish fit and is unbecoming of a professor.
No one can know, with absolute certainty, whether or not God exists. Christians, Catholics, and Muslims take it on faith that he does. Atheists take it on faith that he doesn’t exist and yet ridicule the faith of believers.
I agree that some have overreacted, but that is human nature. The death threats, if they have really been made, are uncalled for but then again, so was this stunt.
Holy crap, don’t you people work?! I’m sitting at my lab bench just doing my PCR, and look what happens! Over 1000 posts already and I’ve just noticed the post. Such a responsible grad student like myself has no hope of ever posting in a recognizable position on such an important and highly anticipated thread. Hum, maybe one day :)
Anyways, PZ, I am very impressed with your manner of desecration. I was really hoping you would throw in a copy/ page of the Origin of Species, or the God Delusion like you did. You made the perfect statement. I also found the banana peels quite fitting. You’re a good man, and hopefully this will all be over for you soon enough!
Nicole, do you atheists not value your intelligence? Then think about it.
-The Catholic Church teaches that nobody should ever have sex outside of marriage.
-AIDS became a pandemic because of promiscuous sexual behavior. Infected needles and blood transfusions were secondary causes of HIV infections which came about later on.
-Therefore, if nobody in the world was promiscuous, AIDS would only have claimed a tiny number of lives before finding itself without a human host and disappearing from the world.
Help fight AIDS – convert to Catholicism.
Evil Nicole( ;)) says “It DOES make a difference to people who are on the fence with losing their faith. It does make them sit up and say, “wait, I believed what? Hmm, maybe that is a bit silly.” Having been in that situation myself once, such an example would have been helpful in looking at things rationally, rather than being morally torn between tradition and reason.”
I say: Conversely, Mister Meyers might have turned a few people towards Christianity just because they now think all atheists behave so monstrously towards anyone that lacks the same sense of ‘there-is-no-god.’
When I showed my atheistic friends (and believe me I have them…living in the SF Bay Area, you can’t throw a rock without hitting one) this blog, some said ‘awesome,’ while others still seemed disgusted by it all.
I mean okay, I get it. PZ believes it’s all a crock of shit. Good on him but… why not just dismiss Christianity/Catholicism out of hand and go on about his atheistic day? Who exactly is he trying to convince, here? Is he even trying to convince anyone? If not, what is the purpose of it all other than exercising his right of free speech? For that matter, why is this getting so much press?
To all my fellow Catholics/Christians… I think we should choose our battles wisely. Hitting brick walls have never served to do any more than bloody your knuckles. Actually, that goes for Mister Meyers as well. If you even read this far, as a fellow human being, I advise that you choose your battles wisely.
Ah crud, this turned out to be much longer than I anticipated.
Evil Nicole also says: “BTW, if you are Catholic, and I am atheist, does that make me Evil Nicole? And if so, do I have to grow a goatee?”
I say: Can you sprout a goatee on demand? That’d be pretty wicked (pun intended!)…though you might wanna be careful – your growing of a full-on goatee might constitute a miracle. ;)
The Church does not help AIDS epidemic at all, and abstinence-only does not work. Sexuality is hardwired in everyone.
Look at teen pregnancy rates in abstinence-only public curriculum states.
Look at pedophile priests.
A person who has never masturbated (which is condemned by most religions) is either lying or has psychological or physiological damage. You most likely have committed this sin as well.
Sandi @964
“If we follow your analogy, any non-Christians (including atheists) who committed brutal acts in the year 1215 or otherwise should be punished today–in 2008”
Sorry, but isn’t that actually basic to Christianity? The punishment of everyone living for the sins of someone in the distant, mythological past?
Or, wait, is it the part about the human sacrifice 2000 years ago that secured eternal forgiveness for everyone everywhere for the sins of that original sinner?
But then, if that was the case, I don’t see what fuss is being made, since if one believes that, then God has already pre-emptively forgiven everyone for everything, including any host desecration.
But that does complicate the idea of the eternal punishment in fire said to be awaiting almost everyone, despite the eternal forgiveness by human sacrifice for the sins of the originator and any and all others.
And of course, the part where the dead sacrifice came back to life, and will return to kill everyone in vengeance for it, which maybe explains why the sacrifice didn’t take.
I’m a bit confused now. Should everyone be held responsible for their own actions or should some people be able to have another person punished to escape such responsibility?
I’m leaning to the first position, myself.
And by the way, if you can find anyone around who committed any crimes in 1215, best drive a stake through their hearts.
Hitler was baptised Catholic, took communion, and was confirmed. You believe those three “sacraments” left an indelible mark on his soul. By your own standard, he was a Catholic. Deal with it.
PZ handled this brilliantly, much better than I would have.
Adding the God Delusion was the perfect coda, and really drove home the point.
*applause*
Look, it’s easy to prove that PZ Meyers did not, in fact, do this. The (offensive!) logic is as follows:
* PZ showed that he’d ripped out pages out of some books. This is book desecration. You know how else liked to desecrate books? Nazis! Ergo: PZ is a Nazi!
* Nazis forced Jews to wear special identification, as required as a result of the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215. Ergo: Nazis are good Catholics. Ergo: PZ is a good Catholic.
* No good Catholic would desecrate the Host in any way other than the church-approved method of mastication followed by exposure to digestive acids. Ergo: PZ did not actually desecrate the Host!
See? Simple logic. ;)
TG
The only thing worse than being a troll is being a boring one.
++++++++++++
I am doing what the good scientist does – demanding empirical evidence that (in this case PZ’s) claim is true, and evaluating what is put forward.
So far, it all looks like a huge fake. At least, that’s the indication from the paucity of evidence – a suspicious photo and a YouTube video posted by some guy apparently in Britain who writes that “The cracker will be kept wrapped in a condom until the Catholic Church recognises the legitimacy of the Golden Rule.” That’s the guy PZ claims he got the “consecrated communion wafer” from. Somebody has no credibility in that pair, you’d agree.
No doubt that is boring to a true disciple willing to accept anything that is said by his authority.
You know you can still be infected with HIV through male to child oral and anal sex, right? Because obviously, converting to Catholicism has done nothing to stop that.
I agree, Tony, sexuality is definitely hard-wired into people. Good thing that the Catholic church isn’t anti-sex!
It’s just anti-fornication.
Help fight AIDS – convert to Catholicism.
@brownian
zing.
Dear PZ,
Now, I’m pretty sure you’ll never see this post as the thread approaches 1000, and that you’ll likely be too busy to answer this question (no problem, if so!), but I was wondering if, as you performed the “desecration” of these unremarkable inanimate objects, what I call “my little angel of childish superstition” fretted impotently from some little corner of your mind about your act?
I don’t mean that you had any qualms about this, but rather that a little bit of you actually still, childishly, “hoped to see the magic” – as if, as Richard Dawkins recalls in avoiding stepping on cracks while walking home from school as a child, important things depended solely upon your casual actions.
Just wondering.
Bravo, Mr Myers. You have done entirely the right thing. Crackers are evil anyway – cookies are the one true biscuit of salvation! Chocolate chip only, of course – the others are all evil.
Love the adding of The God Delusion to the pile. Thoroughly enjoyed reading it, but it’s still, like the Koran (and probably the cracker too) only paper.
Brownian, raping children is against Catholic teaching. I said that the liberal Catholics would have to return to orthodoxy, didn’t I?
Help fight AIDS – convert to (orthodox) Catholicism
Well done!
So sad— I arrived when there were 997 comments, but by the time I finished reading the entry it was faaaar after that. I hoped to get the #1000
This definitely increased web viewers to Pharyngula!
Or if everyone practiced safe sex outside of monogamous relationships and were tested regularly, AIDS wouldn’t be nearly as big a problem. See my solution works without magic and ignorance.
I think this is very sad. I cannot understand why someone who cares so little about a religion would have to take such drastic measures. You must be very hurt and angry but lucky for us Our Lord is all good and mercy. I will pray for your protection as I am sure that the evil one rejoices in you desecrating this eucharist. So may the heavenly angels surround you and yours at this time. Jesus pour your precious blood upon all those involved Amen!
Damn PZ, you are a good writer. By the time I got to the end I was giggling with anticipation.
Now, what was it that the Anti-Christ was supposed to do in his spare time???
This and associated threads should be in the running for some sort of participation award!
Anybody checked for fulminations from the Catholic League site yet?
if everyone in the world followed Catholic teaching on chastity, AIDS would not exist. So if you want to put an end to AIDS, just convince everyone in the world to convert to Catholicism, and get all of the liberal Catholics to return to orthodoxy.
Jesus fucking Christ, you’re dumb.
You could have gotten a consecrated cracker and an unconsecrated cracker and nailed both of them. That would have driven the zealots even more insane. Which one is Jesus and which is just a cracker? If someone “rescued” the crackers from your trash, they would have to consecrate both just to be safe, then do whatever is done with consecrated crackers. But what happens when you try to turn the Body of Christ into the Body of Christ again? Bad things, I’ll bet, bad things.
John #965:
Visit Morris in winter and PZ will gladly demonstrate his walking on water mad skillz for you. Be sure to wrap up warm.
Martin
PZ, this is absolutely brilliant and it’s so much better than I was hoping. It was classy, intelligent, and sincere. Bravo.
#1056, I honestly can’t tell if that’s sarcasm or not…
Yawn. What about Ganeesh? Shiva? Zeus? Thor? Triglav? Unkulunkulu? Anybody know, with absolute certainty, whether or not they exist?
And they take it on faith that Ganeesh, Shiva, Zeus, Thor, Triglav, and Unkulunkulu don’t.
Christians and Muslims have persecuted, tortured and murdered thousands of believers in Ganeesh, Shiva, Zeus, Thor, Triglav, and Unkulunkulu.
Boy, us atheists are real assholes in comparison, aren’t we?
I don’t want his blood poured on me, thats gross.
Yay! I thought you were going to eat the crackers with peanut butter and a banana to give them some character and flavor which they desperately need, and that it would be all done on the open Quran/Koran/whatever.
Its funny. the religious pay so much attention to the fate of some shitty cracker, and abandon everyone else. Just like their god, they’re bark is far far worse than their bite. Little yapping poodles.
My father also reared me to be a skeptic, to have the confidence to investigate the world and learn from my mistakes, and to treat everyone as the human being I would also want in reciprocal.
Atheism is the first step, while empiricism, science, learning provide the paths to true fulfillment in our short evolutionary live.
Ice Farmer @1001,
“You should have recycled everything or at least recycled the nail and added the paper, coffee, banana, etc. to your back yard composter.”
I think not. That would have been an invitation to every RC marauder around to invade his back yard to “rescue” the cracker to give it a decent burial.
Absolutely Briliant!! The intelligence in this argument is astounding; awe inspiring!! The Catholics might as well pack up and move along, as they don’t have a hope in fairy kingdom, or where ever it is they think they go, to compete with that on a level playing field. Judging by their replies, they’ve clearly accepted as much as have digressed further still into childish banter, threats and name calling.
PZ, you are my personal hero sir! Encour Encour Encour! BRAVO! BRAVO! *CHEERING*
Dear PZ,
As this is the 819th comment, I wonder whether you’ll read it, but I hope you will, because I’d really like to hear your response.
I’m a skeptic & an atheist & a big fan of yours. It goes without saying that Cook’s actions were overreacted to. He was physically assaulted, he was the subject of widespread public ire, he received death threats, and there’s a campaign to get him expelled. All this for what can at worst (at WORST) be described as a mean-spirited prank. I think you, and I, and even the vast majority of Catholics in the world would agree with that. The ones sending you smug prayers and vicious threats represent an extremist minority – every Catholic I’ve spoken to about it thinks Cook was being an idiot, but none of them condone the torrent of hate he’s been handed as a result of his actions.
My question is, in criticizing the overreaction, do we really need to overlook the nastiness of what Cook did? Don’t you agree that it’s nasty to go into a place where people are performing a ritual and screw with it? Don’t you agree that it’s wrong to, without provocation, misrepresent yourself and participate, in bad faith (no pun intended), in something that matters to other people, with the sole intention of messing with something they don’t want you to mess with? Can we just please agree that, the silliness of the belief aside, it’s at best a stupid thing to do, and at worst a pretty mean-hearted thing to do? I’m all for showing no respect to the belief itself (and I know you agree with me there), but I can’t see any reason not to respect the people who believe it.
I guess, most importantly, I don’t think that their overreaction is any justification whatsoever for repeating, and expanding on, Cook’s actions. It’s second-grade ethics: Do unto others as you would have done unto you. Maybe that one doesn’t ring true if your position is, “I would have others disabuse me of irrational beliefs,” but what if you thought of it differently: “I would have others respect my right to privately practice my religion (or lack thereof) the way I see fit, and not go out of their way to interfere with it.” Maybe a more apropos basic tenet of human morality would be “Two wrongs don’t make a right”.
Your post today is 95% wonderful. The history of the Eucharist is something that needed to be told. You make a succession of really excellent points with which I wholeheartedly agree. But that picture! (and, to a somewhat lesser extent, the suggestion in your initial post…) It doesn’t ADD anything. You said it all. You managed to be critical of a stupid belief, you were snarky and funny and yet informative, and you made better arguments than anyone on the other side ever has or will. You represented the idiots as the idiots they are, and did so in the best way possible, by simply reprinting their own words. It’s a masterwork of skeptical criticism and it’s an informative, entertaining read! What does a picture of a crucified wafer add to your argument? What purpose is possibly served, other than showing a stubborn refusal to be dissuaded? Couldn’t it be that by going to all this trouble, and facing all this anger and resentment in order to crucify a cracker, that you’re actually giving it just as much importance as the Catholics?
Your words make me proud, PZ, but your actions in this case make me sad. We’re better than them. We don’t need to stoop to childish bullshit to compete with them. We win on the basis of our ideas.
I remain a fan, but I’d really love to know your response to my questions.
Thanks,
Aleksei
Brooklyn, NY
No one cares what you think TG
Not to mention the fact that it does not matter if it is real or not.
#1060, is that like Jesus turducken?
@#962 – Sandi
Sandi, you ignorant s…. wait, that’s already been used on this blog.
Anyway, you completely missed the point. PZ is not a bigot. He thinks that religion is stupid and doesn’t believe in it. Is this not his constitutional right? What about freedom of speech and expression? The issue with the Eucharist was one of PZ making a point about what happened in Florida. A person is more important than a symbol. The analogies you made are overblown and don’t correlate to what’s been done. PZ has never taught hate. Just because he disagrees with you doesn’t mean he hates you. You should perhaps do your research and figure out exactly what has led PZ to do this before you light the torches and go on a witch hunt. You get the picture, now pull you head out of your ass and start thinking.
BTW, MY LAST POST WAS #1001! SWEET! How long will the thread get?
Lewandowski has the right idea, but isn’t really exploiting the broad range of social degeneracies which are cured through Catholicism. I’ll help him out:
Help fight heliocentrism – convert to (orthodox) Catholicism.
Help fight literacy – convert to (orthodox) Catholicism.
Help fight liberalism – convert to (orthodox) Catholicism.
Help fight modern medicine – convert to (orthodox) Catholicism.
Help fight free speech – convert to (orthodox) Catholicism.
Help fight heresy – convert to (orthodox) Catholicism.
Help fight the theory of the circulatory system – convert to (orthodox) Catholicism.
Your final paragraph should be a slap the face of the daft buggers that constitute the Catholic faith. So it’s a terrible shame they’ll be frothing at the mouth so hard after the first couple and never make it to the end!
“Isaac does not regard every idea as equally deserving, since he clearly considers the atheist idea that the sacraments of his faith are empty foolishness to be an outrage. Rather, what he loves is the idea that everyone else must respect his beliefs, no matter what they are, and that any disagreement is an insult” – HOW VERY VERY CORRECT YOU ARE PROF. MYERS
And as for the paragraph that begins “I think if I were truly evil…” that is the very definition of hitting the nail (rusty, tetanus laced) on the head.
Kindest Regards
Jamie
Digg this blog post:
http://digg.com/general_sciences/Pharyngula_The_Great_Desecration
Let’s get it on the front page.
Nothing must be held sacred.
Including, it would seem, basic common standards of courtesy and human decency.
Any angry muslims yet?
Good on you, P.Z. The Whore of Rome wants to bring back the Inquisition, but unfortunately for the Vatican, it’s not the 15th Century any more. (I got cured of any attraction towards organized religion thanks to seeing Oral Roberts and his charades on all three Tulsa TV stations on Sunday mornings when I was a child.) My non-theism hasn’t prevented me from getting married and being a parent and grandparent, as well as being a reponsible member of my community. Keep up the good work. (If I had a “consecrated” wafer, I’d let the neighbor’s cat have it.)
[sarcasm]Wow … there must be a whole set of movies out there with cracker abusing bad-guys that I am missing out on. I’ll be sure to check out the “Saltines” rack next time I go to Blockbuster.[/sarcasm]
Will there be video at 11 (or whenever the late evening news comes on in your area)???
Forget YouTube—Donahue has probably already had it banned over there….
If Prof. Myers lost his job over this, it would be as meaningless as everything else in the universe.
So what? Seriously, what real difference does it make?
That’s the whole point. Look at how these people are going out of their fucking minds, with, as you point out, absolutely no concrete proof that PZ actually desecrated anything.
It’s a thing of beauty, like a room full of dominoes. You know what’s going to happen when you knock the first one over, but it’s mesmerizing nonetheless.
Brandon said: “Jesus fucking Christ, you’re dumb.”
Please show me the flaw in my argument. If everyone practiced chastity outside of marriage, we wouldn’t have AIDS. This is undeniably true!
You could argue (as some have) that it is IMPOSSIBLE for human beings to wait until marriage to have sex, and then, it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to not cheat on their spouses… but that kind of argumentation doesn’t speak very highly of the human race. I doubt an atheist – a “humanist” – would say that humans CANNOT control themselves any more than animals can. That would be an anti-humanistic thing to say.
This was an amazing read, thanks!
Totally Photoshopped.
I eagerly await Dawkins’ fatwa.
Its too late for me.
Now that the religious have shown a desire to subjugate democracy in favor of their totalitarian theocracy, or even to place religion next to science in the classroom, they will forever be ridiculed by me personally and criticized in public and in the harshest manner I can objectively muster.
Religion ought to be chased right out of every town and country with our superior powers of irony and sarcasm, and ridicule.
PZ,
How do we know that the host that you just nailed was consecrated? Do you have a verification slip and where did you get it from?
I think that you need an exorcism – your body must be flooded with legions of fallen angels, you are truly an evil bigot who is fallen due to pride.
Vade Retro Satana, Ipse Venena Bibas!!!
Lux,
St. Michael
My respects PZ.
You are the man!
Translation:
Abridged version:
If I follow your “logic” correctly, the Catholic Church did a few things you didn’t like in the year 1215, so you feel justified today in desecrating Catholic property and intentionally baiting Catholics? Sandi, #964
First, I think it was the Catholic Church giving that kid in Florida hell for saving a wafer for show-and-tell that Dr. Myers didn’t like. I didn’t much care for it either. Second, am I to understand that Sandi thinks the Catholic church owns Jesus Christ? Or is it just all communion wafers in the world?
From Bro. Bill over at the Catholic League:
Thursday July 24, 2008
MYERS DESECRATES THE EUCHARIST
July 24, 2008
University of Minnesota professor Paul Z. Myers made good on his pledge to desecrate the Eucharist today. According to his statement on the subject, “I pierced it [the Host] with a rusty nail (I hope Jesus’s tetanus shots are up to date). And then I simply threw it in the trash.”
Saying he did not want to “single out just the cracker,” Myers also tore pages from the Koran along with a few pages from Richard Dawkins’ The God Delusion and nailed them to the Host. He then said, “They are just paper. Nothing must be held sacred. (His emphasis.) Question everything. God is not great, Jesus is not your lord, you are not disciples of any charismatic prophet.”
Catholic League president Bill Donohue responded as follows:
“A formal complaint against Myers has already been made. What he did–in both word and deed–constitutes a bias incident, as defined by the University of Minnesota. The policy says that ‘Expressions of disrespectful bias, hate, harassment or hostility against an individual, group or their property because of the individual or group’s actual or perceived race, color, creed, religion…can be forms of discrimination. Expressions vary, and can be in the form of language, words, signs, symbols, threats, or actions that could potentially cause alarm, anger, fear, or resentment in others…even when presented as a joke.’
“The University must now take action and apply the appropriate sanction. We are contacting the president, Board of Regents and the Equal Opportunity and Affirmative Action Office at the school, as well as Minnesota’s governor and both houses of the state legislature; the Catholic community in Minnesota is also being contacted. Moreover, we are also contacting Muslim groups nationwide.
“It is important for Catholics to know that the University of Minnesota will not tolerate the deliberate destruction of the Eucharist by one of its faculty. Just as African Americans would not tolerate the burning of a cross, and Jews would not tolerate the display of swastikas, Catholics will not tolerate the desecration of the Eucharist.”
Contact Myers at myersp@morris.umn.edu
Contact President Robert Bruininks at bruin001@umn.edu
@ #1077 (Martha)
Here, here. That’s exactly my point.
Dustin, it’s sad to see that you and your fellow atheists seem to be incapable of questioning the idea that condoms are the only solution to AIDS. Apparently you can question our sacred cows, but not your own.
Aleksei@1070,
Nothing I have read of the Webster Cook incident indicates that he went into the Mass with any bad intent. It looks as if he made a mistake, simply intending to show the cracker to his friend, then things escalated. He may have been ignorant, and he probably responded poorly, but when trivial errors are met with extremist responses, escalation is pretty much what you’d expect. In any case, he returned the host, apologized, and his apology was reportedly accepted by church in question. His continued persecution appears to be at the hand of people who have inserted themselves into the problem for their own selfish reasons.
I really like the image of the wafer in the trash, along with the Qur’an. To really make a point, though, you should also have had an American flag in the trash can, too. People love to worship at the alter of nationalistic jingoism as much as anything else. It would go along with your statement “Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything.” Desecrating a piece of cloth with some specific colors & patterns on it is no different than something like a holy book or religious symbol. They all represent a belief in a imaginary set of ideals that some think should be worshiped and given allegiance to.
There are two flaws.
1) Trying to apply something to everyone DOES NOT WORK (cf Vaccines and recurrence of polio, and people refusing the genital wart vaccine)
2) You further it with “Therefore convert”. Conversion is not sufficient, nor is it necessary. As I’ve mentioned before, the only partner that cheated on me was the devout Christian, never an atheist.
The only damage to date is one woman who was fired from her job with 1-800-flowers. She was fired because her husband used her work email account to send PZ an unambiguous death threat.That’s the husband’s fault, not PZ’s.
I think this is very sad. I cannot understand why someone who cares so little about a religion would have to take such drastic measures.
Dude. He put some stuff in the garbage.
Says the man who calls himself Saint Michael the Archangel.
Christ said, “I would that you were for me or against me; the lukewarm I will spew from my mouth.” It seems you are in a better position than many Catholics. However, when you are converted and rue your sin, no one will hail you or listen to you. You’ll suddenly be far from the lime light. However, for now you will be feted by the children of this world like a celebrity. And, yes, though you are blind to the spiritual, the demons are cheering you and your blind followers on. But beware, you may be at the edge of the ditch.
Dios tenga piedad de ti.
“Please show me the flaw in my argument. If everyone practiced chastity outside of marriage, we wouldn’t have AIDS. This is undeniably true!”
Please show me the flaw in my argument. If everyone shared everything they owned, communism would work flawlessly. This is undeniably true!
He did no such thing: he never went near a Catholic mass. He received a few communion wafers in the mail and threw them in the garbage with the other trash.
John Lewandowski said:
> You could argue (as some have) that it is IMPOSSIBLE for
> human beings to wait until marriage to have sex, and
> then, it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to not cheat on their
> spouses… but that kind of argumentation doesn’t speak
> very highly of the human race.
According to your mythology, your god couldn’t even keep itself from schtooping a hot, young engaged chick. Why would you expect humans to do any better?
Man, anyone want to write some software that determines the CPH (i.e. comments per hour)?
What are you talking about? I’m on your side man!
Help stop the due process of law – convert to (orthodox) Catholicism!
Help stop the spread of governments which do not defer to the divine authority of the Pope – convert to (orthodox) Catholicism!
Help stop fornication – convert to (orthodox) Catholicism!
The soldiers of the Wehrmacht and the SS were not atheists.
Hitler had Catholic troops and Protestant troops.
And racism and nationalism were indeed an important part of Nazi doctrine. Hitler, and many other Christian Germans, were convinced that Poles were an inferior race, regardless of their religion.
I would bet a cracker that when he wanted to crush Polish Catholics, he sent in his Protestant troops.
That’s a pretty despicable defense of lies and false testimony.
But you know what? We can fix it:
If everyone in the world followed sane medical teaching on using condoms, AIDS would not exist. So if you want to put an end to AIDS, just convince everyone in the world to use condoms.
You just got finished admitting that you have no proof that he actually did anything, yet you still feel secure making this pronouncement.
Gotta love free demonstrations.
//Says the man who calls himself Saint Michael the Archangel.//
Pride is always evident before the fall. This man, just a mere mortal who doesn’t have his head on straight will one day meet this God who he so disrespectfully tortured and made fun of and he will have to answer not only for his horrible act of cowardice, he will have to answer for the millions of Christians who he offended.
Yes.. I say PZ Myers is an evil man.
I doubt that was a consecrated Eucharist. You can buy the wafers in bulk online unconsecrated. What a hoax.
No one cares what you think TG
Not to mention the fact that it does not matter if it is real or not.
++++++++++++
Sure it matters. PZ claims he pierced a consecrated host with a rusty nail and then threw it in the trash. Yet, there is almost no evidence of this and what evidence he presents is highly suspicious.
For example, look at the photo carefully. There is lot of leaching of liquid from th coffee grounds into the paper, yet there appears to be none from th coffee grounds on “the cracker’. How come? Also, look at the shadow the nail casts. Why does it stop exactly at the edge of “the cracker”? Real of Photoshopped?
Of course, I guess it doesn’t matter if you take your authority’s word for it, unquestioned. For those of us who are real scientists, that is anathema.
Let’s examine this “Hitler was an atheist” rumour a bit more.
There is plenty of evidence that, far from him being atheist, he actually thought he was divine:
@ #1095 (Observer)
You’re right. I said it was at best stupid, at worst mean-spirited. Maybe it was only stupid. With PZ, though, there’s no question. It’s both.
I didn’t know Cook had returned the cracker and apologized. I think that’s wonderful news, and I think PZ should do the same. It won’t hurt his argument one iota to do that, and it would be a small step toward us regaining the high ground in this controversy.
Peace be with you
Please show me the flaw in my argument. If everyone practiced chastity outside of marriage, we wouldn’t have AIDS. This is undeniably true!
Ryan White and a generation of hemophiliacs would tend to take umbrage upon your assertions.
So would all of those who practice “chastity outside of the marriage” — whatever that means. Do you practice chastity at the bus stop, too? Chastity when playing chess? Chastity at the mall? — who have themselves been infected by previously infected partners, who may or may not be practicing “chastity outside the marriage” themselves.
Your argument is not an argument, it’s infantile wish fulfillment.
Cheers, asshole.
By the way, ALL of my pals who were Catholics when we were children are now Atheists: rabid, sarcastic, fun loving, irreverent, empathetic, atheists.
In other words good people who you can count on in a tough spot because they identify with you as a fellow human, not as a merit badge for post-death fantasy garbage.
Just to add my suppport for you, PZ – well done.
Excellent post – I hope there is still room for my comment!
(signed) marc
You know the legions of studies that show abstinence-only education makes kids more likely to get pregnant outside of marriage and contract STIs? That’s what we call questioning.
I mean, if even your priests can’t remain celebate, how do you expect children to?
Yeah, getting caught up in a witch hunt will do that to you. Use the stuff between your ears next time, before you listen to the incitements of a religious nutter.
MRM/#1029: I guess you haven’t ever seen Idiocracy, since you seem to think that “outbreeding” rationalists is some sort of extreme virtue to be inordinately proud of. Of course, I wouldn’t expect a religious nutter-zealot to understand why breeding for ignorance, hatred, bigotry and indoctrination into the aforementioned three is not something to be proud of.
I love the people praying for you. They hate you, but want anyone and everyone else to be the real source of their hatred—their asshole god who wants to burn you in hell, imaginary Arabs who will terrorist-ize you, whatever. They hope to magic some surrogates in there to hurt you.
P.Z. Congrats, well said.
Fr. J – You have repeatedly informed us that we have somehow failed, because we have failed to change your mind. The self-centered ego-centrism you show with that judgment is quite telling.
You believe a tautology. There is nothing we could possibly say or do to break you of your self-referencing circle of ‘Truth’, years of brainwashing and strategic redefinitions have been intentionally placed on you to hobble your rational mind into accepting a fairy-tale as true.
No my friend, instead you’ve done nothing but serve as an illustration. Your words indict your own rationality and capacity for reading comprehension. You’re not hear to learn or discuss, you’re hear because your Truth compels you to sit here and preach it’s madness, and we’re simply being amused by the psychosis on parade.
Thanks for the laughs.
You could argue (as some have) that it is IMPOSSIBLE for human beings to wait until marriage to have sex,
Actually, I would argue that there is no need to, presuming the people involved used the proper precautions to minimize disease transfer. In fact, I would argue that this would lead to stronger marriages, as I have seen many, many a bad marriage made solely upon the foundation of “Omygod I’m 20 years old and haven’t had sex yet and I can’t until I’m married and I can’t wait any longer”. Those all tend to fall apart by the time the couple hit age 35 or so.
Why did this end up about sex again? It started off about a cracker. Jeez, religious people have a sex fixation. It’s like that’s all they can think about.
Weird. Is this TG also a 911 truther?
There’s nothing remarkable about getting a communion wafer and tossing it in the trash.
Darnit, all this has been going on way too long now. I forgive everybody involved. Now please people, y’all go home now, there’s nothing new to see here. And I gotta gangbang to go to with 12 of my male companions. Tally Ho!
You DARE to desecrate The God Delusion? The holy scipture of the atheist humanist secularist religion? Why don’t you wipe your butt with On The Origin Of Species or Sagan’s Demon Haunted World or Hawking’s Brief History? You have offended my deeply-held atheist beliefs by throwing out a piece of paper with words I like printed on it!!!
I CALL HEATHEN FATWA ON PZ MYERS!!!
(*removes tongue from cheek – ow, that was in there pretty deep)
http://generalsystemsvehicle.blogspot.com/2008/07/crackergate-saga-continues-pz-nails-it.html
Onya PZ.
#1098 – don’t forget the damage done to Webster Cook in Florida, who got the whole ball rolling.
I love how the Catholics are trying to rationalize this: “But..but…but…I NO IT WUZNT RLY A CONSECRATED EUCHARIST!!!!” And they wonder why we call religion lunacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnum_opus
PZ, It’s always a pleasure to read http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/
MAGNUM OPUS All Hail!
I’ve saved an archive of 214 pages. Something to read again
on a lazy afternoon.
Atheist & Proud
DenisC
I don’t give a shit what the fuck you called him, moron. The prideful part is that you fancy yourself an archangel.
“yet there appears to be none from th coffee grounds on “the cracker’. How come?”
The cracker isn’t as flimsy and absorbant as the paper. It also only has a couple tiny pieces of coffee on it.
“Also, look at the shadow the nail casts. Why does it stop exactly at the edge of “the cracker”? ”
How you can see all this on a 40Kb jpeg is beyond me.
“Of course, I guess it doesn’t matter if you take your authority’s word for it, unquestioned. For those of us who are real scientists, that is anathema.”
You’re right, we’re not being scientific enough. Quick, somebody get a grant so we can study that photograph properly.
Wanker.
Y’all chickenshit.
Nobody’s offended the _real_ scary religion.
Scient*logy. They gots lawyers.
Is it true if you paint a picture of Elron on the cracker first, it comes out different?
Anyone want to be an alterboy for a ‘special’ service??
Good work, good message for people to take away, I sincerely hope they do.
I must say, PZ, that was a nicely done piece of work. By dismissing it as unimportant you acheived far more than if you’d immolated it, crapped on it, or performed some equally spectacular act.
Though I do hope it doesn’t put you on the wrong side of U of M policies.
@John Lewandowski
My family were Catholics from at least 1899. My great-uncle and my great-great-grandfather were both bastards, born out of wedlock.
Do you say my grandfolks were lousy specimens of the human race? Is that what I’m supposed to take from your statement?
Your call for universal chastity until marriage, and complete faith within it, are as effective as Canute’s injunction to the sea.
You can live in that fantasy world as long as you like, but the real one is happening every day. In Jakarta, in Delhi, in Port-Au-Prince, and in North America.
Failing chastity, the best option is universal condom use. But unlike you, I don’t expect it to happen in my lifetime. Especially because the Catholic Church is so determined to breed more poor people, subjugate women, and spread preventible diseases.
Imagine just for one pitiable moment what would happen if the Pope stood up and said “Please! Use common sense, and a condom!” What good he could do with that simple statement.
Neural T
I’ve digged this post. I hope others do as well!
TG it doesn’t matter because there’s no difference between an unconsecrated host and a blessed one because… NOTHING HAPPENS WHEN ONE IS BLESSED.
Unless of course mumbling words and waving hands while talking to an imaginary ghost actually does something to the chemical make up of the host.
But then of course we get the agruments the the host IS the same, but different and only the imaginary ghost knows the difference.
And, yes, though you are blind to the spiritual, the demons are cheering you and your blind followers on.
Another example that religion is brainwashing.
#1018 Thanks for that laugh, it was good.
_____________________________________
Rayven Alandria@972,
Very well said.
Posted by: anthropic
__________________________
Thanks, I won’t hold my breath waiting for him to grasp it though.
Rayven
_________________
Rayven Alandria!!!! Long time no see! Sorry to see MajorBytes sell atheists.com to the Turkish hackers…but I’m working on something to fill the gap. Look to the old yahoo atheistsdotcom group to get my email addy and send me a line and I’ll pass along what I’m up to.
Posted by: Skeeve | July 24, 2008 6:19 PM
__________________________________
Hey there Skeeve! I just bookmarked your blog. I’ll get in touch. I would post my email addy here, but somehow I think that would not be wise.
I think we need to make this crackerjack brigade into a book. I can’t keep up with the posts anymore, everytime I click refresh there are a hundred more. I think I have missed many gaps in the conversation. It would be an entertaining book, I’d buy it. Go for it PZ, make it into a book.
It would also be a wonderful study for a psychology class. Watching people’s minds in action during conversation, and especially heated ones, could be a good tool for a professor to use.
Rayven
So far, it all looks like a huge fake.
Posted by: TG
So what? Seriously, what real difference does it make?
++++++++++++
Oh, it makes all the difference regarding PZ’s credibility and sense of respect for the truth. Both essential character traits of a reputable and trustworthy scientist.
And on the 7th day, God said “why so serious?”*
Nice explanation for it all. I’m still coming to grips with the idea that Catholics actually believe the cracker turns into the body of Christ. It’s symbolic, not literal. It’s even more absurd than believing in the talking snake, and that story is obviously allegorical. In the end, it’s just another excuse for Catholics to get outrage and demand conformity from an otherwise increasingly apathetic world. It’s influence is dying, using sensationalist stories like this to stay relevant is not going to help.
*may be attributed to The Joker
Speaking as an individual who is assisting Cook and Collard down here at UCF-
bravo.
Interestingly enough, the etymology of the word AMEN directly translates to “So Be It”. Much like the word tetletsi (which is the final word of Christ-kabob) means “It is finished”, but it is more so when discussing debt. So, yes, this does mean a Jew, being killed, used a banking term.
Surprise ?
Anyhow, congrats furthermore on this- good luck with the Catholic League. You, of course, have the support of all of us working down here.
Great Post. Hilarious.
By the way, probably unintentionally, this rises to the level of visionary religious art. I want to buy a print and donate the money to victims of religious violence.
#1084 Please show me the flaw in my argument. If everyone practiced chastity outside of marriage, we wouldn’t have AIDS. This is undeniably true!
Since we still can’t be sure how the AIDS virus entered the human population, your assertion is hardly “undeniably true.” Sex is ONE way that AIDS is transmitted, but it’s hardly the only way, and there’s no reason to assume that it’s the way the first human became infected.
Rob said: “There are two flaws.
1) Trying to apply something to everyone DOES NOT WORK (cf Vaccines and recurrence of polio, and people refusing the genital wart vaccine)”
Was that an intentional Freudian slip/double entendre or what? Trying to “apply” something to everyone does not work? Well, thanks for telling me that trying to convince everyone to apply condoms to themselves isn’t going to work.
Rob also said: “2) You further it with “Therefore convert”. Conversion is not sufficient, nor is it necessary. As I’ve mentioned before, the only partner that cheated on me was the devout Christian, never an atheist.”
“Devout”, you say? I don’t recall; which branch of Christianity allows adultery?
Also, you are correct that conversion is not actually necessary! It is perfectly possibly for non-Catholics to only sleep with their spouses.
Owlmirror said: *Snip Hitler stuff*
Murdering people is against Catholic teaching.
Owlmirror also said: “That’s a pretty despicable defense of lies and false testimony.”
Is that how “reason” and “humanism” work? If you arbitrarily declare me to be a despicable liar, that makes it true, regardless of your lack of evidence or an argument? And you say I’m crazy for thinking that a cracker can be declared to be Jesus?
Owlmirrow went on to say: “If everyone in the world followed sane medical teaching on using condoms, AIDS would not exist. So if you want to put an end to AIDS, just convince everyone in the world to use condoms.”
Well, except that your friend Rob already informed us that “Trying to apply something to everyone DOES NOT WORK”. Plus there’s the fact that condoms fail every once in awhile. That sucks, doesn’t it? But, if you want to play Russian Roulette with people’s lives in order to hold up your sacred cow called a condom, that’s your business.
Hmm… hey, Professor Myers! You should have thrown a condom in the garbage, too! Apparently they’re an object of worship for many of your acolytes!
“Kudos to Bill Donahue”
What he does understand is that if you want a religion to be powerful and influential, you need to be aggressive and need to defend and conquer.
Strangely, no catholic I ever met, placed prime interest in a large, powerful, influential and mighty catholic movement, more than satisfied with practicing the religion. Equally interesting, I never met agressive atheists, muslims or what have you (barring the occasional slightly pushy Jehova’s Witness but even they weren’t that bad).
I guess I must be a very lucky man. Or my experience actually mirror reality, a reality in which 99% of the people are happy to live their lives as they are. The other 1% meet on the internet. Mea culpa (which is just a latin phrase to me, while others may attach a more elaborate meaning to it).
Well done PZ! A freedom you cannot make use of is no freedom at all.
Gotcha “Fr J”
A real priest would know how to spell altar!
Weird. Is this TG also a 911 truther?
No, apparently he’s a real™ scientist. Must be a pain in the ass for him to commute to work; always questioning whether the next slab of concrete actually exists or whether he’s been drugged to believe so and in fact is about to fall off of a very large cliff. To take the existence of the sidewalk on his own authority from the last time he trod it would be anathema.
I wish Catholics had become this outraged over the child abuse perpetrated by their beloved clergy.
Sad when baked goods rate more highly than children. And they call us evil.
Onya PZ :)
http://generalsystemsvehicle.blogspot.com/2008/07/crackergate-saga-continues-pz-nails-it.html
.m.
All right, let’s start making our bets. In three days, will the trash can lid be rolled away to reveal an empty tomb?
Crazy Christians.
I wish Catholics had become this outraged over the child abuse perpetrated by their beloved clergy.
Sad when baked goods rate more highly than children. And they call us evil.
To post #1084:
If everybody practiced safe sex and got regular check-ups, it is unlikely anybody would have AIDS. Just because your argument may be true doesn’t mean you have proven a point.
Furthermore, I’m sure you’ve heard Billy Joel’s “Only the Good Die Young.” In short, it’s about how if try to avoid all risk in life, you’re not really ‘living’. Hence, only the ‘good’ (people who try to strictly follow all the rules) ‘die young’ (aren’t living life to it’s fullest potential).
Funnily enough, because of it’s relevancy, the songs story focuses on a girl who is going to become a nun and Billy Joel is telling her she’s throwing her life away. Great song.
“They say there’s a heaven for those who will wait. Some say it’s better, but I say it ain’t. I’d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints. Sinners are much more fun. Only the good die young.”
the Great Desecration is a powerful essay;I was moved to tears by the end of it.I have renewed hope for humanity’s bright future beyond superstition and hate.
This was just amazing, a masterpiece of beautiful writing. The end result and picture to me was anti-climatic, but it’s time to move on. In PZ’s honor, tonight I shall have some crackers, wine and cheese.
I may have missed it above, but I was hoping you would have subjected the wafers to scientific analysis to see if they had undergone transubstantiation. If they can bring in a team for the Shroud of Turin, why not for the wafers?
When I was a Christian, I belonged to a liberal Episcopal church that would use homemade bread and decent wine. Really! What a concept. Real bread, not something which is horrible styrofoam. Dare I say it — it is not even bread. And the bread bringers generally would make them the morning of the service, and you could break off a nice warm chewy chunk.
If you’re going to have a ritual, at least do it with style, no?
@#1134
Good call! PZ should have had a copy of Battlefield Earth in there or something. Perhaps a picture of Tom Cruise or a characature or Xenu.
#1144 “By the way, probably unintentionally, this rises to the level of visionary religious art. I want to buy a print and donate the money to victims of religious violence.”
LOL, send it to this church I guess.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/tayside_and_central/7521925.stm
Donohue wrote:
Good thing you included the “God Delusion,” a symbol of your own beliefs, PZ. It might save your ass. What you did isn’t a lone attack on Catholicism, but on holding anything sacred in an abstract sense.
“and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.”
Posted by: Rose | July 24, 2008 5:09 PM
Wow, calling Jesus a fruit…isn’t that worse than what PZ did.
Amazing read – and an excellent demonstration that nothing is sacred.
*applaud*
Just wondering what this whole thing has to do with science. It seems a whole lot more like Paul is being a demagogue for his own personal attention.
thecountryshrink.com
#699
Some people have far too much time on their hands. Get out of the basement and get some fresh air.
Hey, remember when PZ was expelled from Expelled? Already history, by now. What a year, professor!
How’s the book going, by the way? Time to publish, you’ll be on the lists forever!
Congratulations again, and thank you for this wonderful blog.
Posting in a legendary thread.
“Be cheerful! Jesus will take care of everything. Let us pay no attention to people who do not know what they are talking about. Let us trust in Jesus and our heavenly Mother and everything will work out well.” padre pio
It is evil–archetypally evil–to desecrate the Eucharist. It’s the sort of stuff archetypal bad guys in the movies do.
That would be the most BORING.MOVIE.EVAH. Um, well done PZ. As a former Gopher I will even forgive you for the 3rd rate university crack.
Well said PZ. Thoughtful, accurate, uplifting and disparaging all at the same time. The last paragraph was perfect.
#1084:
“If everyone practiced chastity outside of marriage, we wouldn’t have AIDS. This is undeniably true!”
Err…just to deny your truth : tell that to the unlucky individuals that contracted HIV via blood transfusion for the only “sin” of being in an accident or requiring transfusions in surgery.
I’d also add i.v. drug abuse as another source of the infection that doesn’t have anything to do with being sexually chaste or not.
But, please carry on……
TG:
I don’t think you’re a real scientist. In fact, I’m pretty sure that you’re lying about it. No real scientist would pretend to be a real scientist, so you must be a liar.
A reputable scientist documents his experiments so others can repeat and verify them. I encourage you and everyone to test these results.
“Apparently they’re an object of worship for many of your acolytes!”
Posted by: John Lewandowski
John Lewandowski, a believer in magical crackers thinks atheists worship condoms! HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHA!!! Too Funny!
Talk about a warped sense of reality! HAHAHAHAHA!!
I wish. Alas, if Donohue has his way PZ may have a fight on his hands.
Did you talk with the University president before going ahead with this, PZ?
Well done, PZ. One more reason why you’re one of my heroes.
@1173 – I don’t think PZ was doing an experiment on the stale cracker. He was just throwing out some trash.
Like a few others, I’d also be interested in which particular “Catholic nation” is is that is supposed to have “[slaughtered] its non-Christian citizenry” 70 years ago. Perhaps Dr Myers could expand on this issue a bit more?
Serious question: Why do so many of you assume that we Catholics were NOT outraged by the sexual abuse scandal?
The sexual abuse of children is extremely evil. The Catholic Church must continue to work to put an end to these atrocities committed by supposed men of God, and do whatever it can to help the victims.
Of course, for you guys, the only way that the Church can possibly atone is for every single bishop and priest to be thrown in jail and for the Vatican to be burned to the ground.
In fact, I bet that just reading that last sentence turned a number of you on sexually.
Tyler @1103 – perfect retort!
Wait… the Virgin Mother shoots fruit of of her what, now?
P Zus Christ!?!?
How could the holy symbol of Ray Comfort be left to rot in a pile of garbage with an enriched iron (obviously intelligently designed) cracker? The mistreatment of the banana will definitely spark the ire of the Way of The Master Ministries ©®tm. Since we all know the cracker was simply a red herring to the real desecration, the peeled and discarded proof of God! The banana! Where are the monkey minions to defend this sacrilege? I will “prey” on you…err…I mean I will pray for you…
Thank you PZ! Very well done.
I just woke up and logged on. What’d I miss?
Oh crap. Fine, I’ll start from the start and join you all in a few hours.
I know this won’t be the last word in the thread — far from it! — but I have to say, as I’m on my way out, this has been a really great desecration. Thanks, ya’ll.
-TTm
TonyT said: “John Lewandowski, a believer in magical crackers thinks atheists worship condoms! HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHA!!! Too Funny!”
Thanks, I thought it was funny, too.
Pasta Desecration Spurs Outrage
MORRIS, MN — A University of Central Florida alumni, upset religious groups hold Pastafarian services on public campuses, has opened an Italian restaurant serving mainly spaghetti, a nutritious meal so sacred to Pastafarians they call it the Holiness of His Noodly Appendage. According to Adam Susan of the Flying Spaghetti Monsterism Defamation League the actions of the UCF alumni should be seen as a hate crime. “To open a restaurant selling the Holy Body of our Creator to infidels equals kidnapping and extortion,” he replied by e-mail. “It shows a lack of respect for our Holiest of all religions.”
Spurring even more outrage, Paul Zachary Myers, a professor at the University of Minnesota Morris, has released pictures of him, an atheist, trashing a bowl of the Flying Spaghetti Monster’s Noodly Appendages. Myers announced his intention earlier on his blog, sparking a flood of e-mails, including death threats, from both outraged and concerned Pastafarians. Myers does not see the blasphemy in his actions. He claims “it’s just a macaroni-damned serving of noodles!”
In the 1298 alleged desecration of an host all the jewish population of Röttingen was burned at the stake. Severe persecutions followed in Franconia, Bavaria and Austria. A German nobleman by the name of Rindfleisch (he was called the Judenschlächter) gathered a small army and began to slaughter Jews from city to city. In about six months he burned and massacred an estimated 100,000 Jews in 140 communities including Wurzburg, Ratisbon, Nuremberg, Augsburg, Heilbronn and Rottingen.
There’s this book, «» is quite good explaining the catholic reactions we are all witnessing:
«the host desecration myth grew out of Christian insecurities surrounding the elaboration of the Christian doctrine of transubstantiation, whereby the body and blood of Christ is truly, physically present in the guise of the consecrated sacramental bread and wine.»
These insecurities also explained the persecution by the Catholic Church of atomism and all attempts to explain things like «color», «smell» or flavour that belonged to the theological domain, that pertained to the «miracle» of the eucharist
At#107: Um.. that should be “me damn it…” Also do acolytes of PZ get to wear squid-themed outfits?
+JMJ+ +AMDG+
I am very saddened to hear of Dr. Myers’ desecration of the Body of Christ. I forgive Dr. Myers and the people who stole the Body of Christ for him for what they have done, and I will pray that God have mercy on their souls.
I offered to send Dr. Myers a self-addressed stamped envelope that he could use to send me the consecrated hosts, and I would have placed them in my college’s tabernacle, but I guess my e-mail reached him too late.
As a college student who hopes to someday serve God and His Church as a priest, the Eucharist holds a very dear place in my heart, and I will pray that all of you will someday share the great gift we are given in the Eucharist.
The person that you should really feel sorry for is Bruininks. Think of the head ache that he has to put up with now.
Well done sir
John Lewandowski, she’d be alive if it wern’t for you.
Lanfranc @ 1178, could it be the one whose soldiers sported a belt buckle engraved with “Gott Mitt Uns”?
TG seems to believe he was. If he doesn’t trust PZ, then he should test it himself.
So if this so called “cracker” isn’t important then why are all you non catholics so hell bent on desecrating the Eucharist if it’s just a “cracker”?
You know what’s funny.. even the demonic witch craft anti priest’s know how powerful this “cracker” is.
Maybe you should do your research about laws in some states about religious persecution!
[I’ll have my church pray for all of your souls that one day you will realize that it isn’t just a “cracker”.]
“Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.”
Luke 23:34
Cherl Hurley @ #1056
Jesus pour your precious blood upon all those involved Amen!
Ew, gross! It’s like something out of a horror flick! Sorry, I’m not into blood-play.
Missing a link in comment # 1188
Gentile Tales: The Narrative Assault on Late Medieval Jews
John RE: post #1179
Actions speak louder than words, Catholics may have expressed outrage verbally, but these pedophiles were not removed from the church. They were sent to a different churches to continue on spreading the word of God.
Even if some may have been removed from the church, they should have been sent to PRISON. IT IS AGAINST THE LAW TO MOLEST AND RAPE CHILDREN. In case your church is unaware of that.
It is quite a shame that really, all anyone against the Catholic church has to talk about is the fact that they are against it. It doesn’t really make for any exciting discussions.
I would also agree that the fact that these things are making news is proof that people are bored.
me@1195 Maybe TG will run off and try to figure out how to run some tests. It’ll keep him occupied for awhile. Although, he’ll probably have to finish high school first.
I doubt that was a consecrated Eucharist. You can buy the wafers in bulk online unconsecrated. What a hoax.
Posted by: Hoax | July 24, 2008 6:49 PM
___________________
Please refer to post #577
Good thing you included the “God Delusion,” a symbol of your own beliefs, PZ. It might save your ass. What you did isn’t a lone attack on Catholicism, but on holding anything sacred in an abstract sense.
I’m not sure any ass needed saving here, but this is a good point – it clearly demonstrated PZ wasn’t engaging in hate speech, just expressing his opinion on revering objects.
I’ve been tossing Gideon Bibles in the trash for a long time now. Even taught my kids to do the same. It brings me a tiny bit of satisfaction to rid one hotel room, for a small amount of time, of superstition.
Thank you for being so brave. I would not have done this, but I’m glad someone is willing to. I’m glad someone is willing to stand up to ridiculousness and say “No, that’s just stupid.”
My hopes for your continued success :)
Have you ever considered what a true fatass the cracker-jesus must be? Consider the mass of a single cracker… I don’t have one, but there’s probably not a lot to it, so let’s say 0.1 g.
Now, there are about a billion Catholics in the world, but let’s say only about 1/3 actually practice regularly and have communion 20 out of 52 weeks of the year.
That’s about 6.7 billion little cracker-jesi each year. 670 megagrams… 670 tonnes of Jesus. Last year. Over the last 50 years, an eyeball estimate says that Catholics have chewed up and shat out well over 20000 tonnes of Jewish messiah.
Kinda puts it all in perspective.
Because you’re still Catholic.
Arnaud #1194: I’d say that for a country to be considered Catholic, a significant majority of its citizens ought to actually be Catholics. This has not been the case for for Germany since the Reformation.
He was another fraud.
Stimpson –
“Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything.
Even evolution ???”
It’s not SACRED so much as it is tautological. You should read about it sometime.
I’ll just add my 2 cents. Great post PZ. You are my hero!
John Lewandowski wrote:
So, tell us what you did to express that outrage? I didn’t see much of it.
Regardless of anything else, this is the bottom line:
Any organisation that protects child molesters within its ranks as a matter of documented policy deserves absolutely no respect regardless of anyone’s faith, and should be brought crashing down and destroyed by any means possible, and the perpetrators and protectors of these crimes should be brought to justice with all the weight of international law.
End of argument.
RE: post #1213
Well put El Herring.
Did I get the first post? Awwww, dammit.
You GO, son.
I was a bad boy in 3rd grade, got tossed from public school, parents stuck me in a Catholic school, downtown Detroit, early 1960s. On my third day with the nuns, one of them cracked me across the knuckles with a metal edged wooden ruler, broke on knuckle and one finger. My crime? I was writing with my left hand, the only way I’d been taught and the only way I knew how. Parents took me out, tried to have her charged (pop was a Detroit cop), but were blocked by the Diocese. Lovely organization, that Catholic Church.
I had hoped for an avenging Hero, and now, 40 years later, here he be!
MAKE SURE YOU TAKE OUT THAT TRASH WITHIN 3 DAYS.
Dinkim @ #1207 and the Great Denier John Lewandowski
Exactly! Because you all do absolutely nothing about the number of priests that are hiding out in Rome. You just bow your heads in the sand and pray. You ignore all of the gross injustice that has been perpetrated on the victims and call them “liars out for money.” Anybody that does try to raise a cry about it gets shouted down. I met the man who started the support group for people abused by priests. He certainly does not have the support of the majority of catholics.
Wow- up to 1179 posts. With many repeats. 1179 Atheist /
1 billion Catholics not even counting Christians and other religions. Man, you guys have a lot of campaigning to do if you want PZ to publish a book. And a book about what? you losers and your posts. Ha,ha,ha,ha! better start a kitty folks, he’s going to need money for heat this winter. Think about it- no matter who gets involved, this country is a whore for the almighty dollar. Once the college starts seeing a drop in attendance he’ll be gone. Besides there are more who believe in God than those who don’t. How is he going to keep his classes filled? The college is going to pay this guy to teach a handful of students. Even if he doesn’t get canned for this, he’ll be gone by next summer- Pure economics folks- and who will laugh then? I know one person- ME
Ah yes… These comments illustrate my points very nicely.
Some Psychological Aspects of Atheism–Part II
“Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything.
Even evolution ???”
Evolution is questioned all the time and yet the evidence continues to support the theory.
Lanfranc #1178 — Germany. A Christian (and heavily Catholic} nation that spawned the NAZI party and fed upon centuries of Christian anti-Semitic fervor to commit the Holocaust.
By 1939, after annexing the Sudetenland and Austria, Germany was about 45% Catholic.
Don’t forget the German army belt buckles: “Gott mit Uns”.
John Lewandowski , #1179:
I think most people here know that average Catholics were as outraged as anyone. That is not the problem. The problem is that the pope, (2 popes, in fact), many archbishops and hundreds of other powerful Catholic authorities worked for decades to keep secret the sexual abuse committed by priests and other Catholic authority figures. Your leaders protected child-rapists for decades – and they continue to do so. That is why people are angry.
Wow, the public school system has really gone down the tubes! I’ve read these comments and my overwhelming impression is that you “Myers Groupies” simply can’t think logically. Your arguments are like: “All dogs are canines. A pug is a dog. Therefore, a pug is a vegetable.” You folks just don’t know how to determine the validity or invalidity of premises and discern logical or illogical conclusions. If your moronic thinking is representative of society’s at large, then I’m scared; one simply can’t reason with a blockhead. I think we’ve really got to revamp the entire public school system. You people are so blinded by your own bigotry against Catholics that you can’t even recognize that you’re bigots. I feel like I’m arguing with turnips (uh, talking turnips, that is). Oh, well. I’m hoping the president of Myers’ college will see the light and kick his adolescent intolerant ass out the door. Woo hoo!!!!
RE: post 1207
Would you leave the country if the president molested somebody?
Judging an entire organization based on its bad apples is incredibly poor. The Catholics have the unique ability to produce saints, which many seem to have forgotten. Were Mother Theresa, Padre Pio, and Cardinal Neumann all just confused cracker worshippers?
Say whatever you like, the outstnding contributions of these individuals to humanity stand for themselves.
“It seems a whole lot more like Paul is being a demagogue for his own personal attention. ”
And immediately after this statement you post a URL to your blog.
Fucking tool.
Very nicely done. Thank you, PZ.
The priest-on-child scandals should be a pretty big red flag to show that chastity is not a reasonable thing to expect from anyone.
Abstinence-only is an obsolete idea and is not something that you can reasonably expect large groups of people to obey. It’s an ideological dead-end and people are dying because of it’s perpetuation.
People like YOU John Lewandowski, contribute to the idea that sex before marriage is a sin, people are dying because of it! Do you rather they wear a condom or get HIV? If you expect them to be abstinent then you have blood on your hands.
Reality: Many Catholics fornicate and commit adultery like many non-catholics do.
Sweet, so fargin sweet :)
Thanks!
Norman Doering @#1212:
Shows what you know.
It just so happens that for years and years before the scandal hit the public media in a big way, conservative Catholic groups had been tirelessly trying to bring the matter to light. Publications like The Wanderer and other traditionalist Catholic outlets were going after negligent bishops and other contributing problems.
Sandi, as someone who is obviously well educated, would be so kind as to give examples for your claims instead of simply asserting them? It helps my slow thinking process.
These religious-right loons almost make fundie muslim loons look normal. I didn’t realize before how many muslim-like Christian wackos there were in the U.S.
“I won’t mince words. Myers is an evil man. And as evil men, particularly evil intellectuals, tend to be, he is also a mad man as are most of his acolytes and followers.”
Can I be an acolyte?
“Please show me the flaw in my argument. If everyone practiced chastity outside of marriage, we wouldn’t have AIDS. This is undeniably true!”
Here’s the flaw: You live, wish, and hope in an imperfect world, and no amount of wishing and hoping will make it perfect. When you attain perfection you will be able to demand it of others. Until then, understand the world is not perfect, and you are powerless to change that.
Nice going PZ
I think the whole cracker thing is a bit silly, but it should be considered a matter of free speech and that you shouldn’t get fired for it. I do wonder what the more liberal Catholics think of it. Wasn’t JFK a Catholic?
The motto of the Catholic religion should be:
Have cracker, will con.
Some con artist priest waves his hands over a mass-produced cracker and it suddenly becomes special.
Never ceases to amaze me that people continue to fall for that kind of crap.
“In fact, I bet that just reading that last sentence turned a number of you on sexually.” – John Lewandowski.
What an odd thing to say. However, I find people often ascribe thoughts to others that occur naturally to themsleves. They’re usually wrong, but it’s a good indicator of who they are and what they’re about.
Again, you’re just an asshole. It’s a shame that people on either side of the “argument” are overreacting over someone like you, it’s counterproductive.
Dude, don’t you know those things come back to life?? Seriously, at the End of the Age, there will be a great Zombie Cracker Invasion, when all the offended crackers rise up in vengeance on their teeny little legs and demand the brains of their tormentors!
XD
Okay, not really, but it makes for an interesting mental image, no? I am glad you threw in a banana. I consider it a slam against Ray Comfort, the evangelist who believes the banana to be evidence of God’s existence because it is so perfectly designed for humans to eat. Take THAT, Intelligent Design!
Waldteufel 1220: I’m curious: Have you, or others here, ever heard of the 1937 papal encyclical Mit brennender Sorge?
Wiki link, for your convenience.
How dare you do that to Jesus? I cannot believe you can do that and get away with it. It is not some cracker. I truly pray for your soul and your conversion because Satan is in you right now.
love it, elegant.
When you were merely “holding the host hostage,” it was so clear and self-evident to the Christians that it was the pure and transubstantiated body of Christ, in person. And you were hurting it, or at least potentially hurting it, and stood to be punished in the hottest circles of hell. They insisted on this as an article of faith, and were terribly offended when you said “it’s just a cracker.”
But then, when you actually “killed the host,” by sticking an iron nail through it, and the host didn’t bleed, or cry out, or show any signs of being a god’s body, and when no heavenly punishment came down upon you for doing so, the Christians took all of that back. THEY, in fact, utterly adopted YOUR previous position that “it’s just a cracker,” and started challenging you to prove that “the host was consecrated” — pretending that YOU were the one who were seeking to prove that the body of THEIR god existed in it.
This high level of logical fallacy and inconsistency should disgust anybody with a functioning brain cell, Christian or non-Christian. This is a classic example of the reason why religion simply does not make sense.
People who are religious either should stop being religious, or should stop pretending that it makes sense. There is no rational argument for it. They simply should admit “I have carved out a certain area of my life where I choose superstition and medieval beliefs over everything that reason tells me, and I’m going to do that no matter what my senses or my mind demonstrates to me, because it makes me feel good.” Then maybe we could all stop arguing. Some people would give up their religious beliefs once they recognized that fact. Others would not because many people like to do or believe irrational things. But it would be better than the religious people constantly trying to act like they make sense.
Please join me in praying for this Professor and his family and all those posting here who do not believe, do not adore, and do not love God. These people esp. this Professor need our prayers. They do not know realize what they are doing!!
I especially recommend praying the rosary for this Professor’s conversion.
****************************************************
My God, I believe, I adore, I hope and I love you. I ask forgiveness for those who do not adore, do not hope, and do not love you.
Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I adore you profoundly. I offer you the most precious body, blood, soul, and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifference with which he is offended. Through the infinite merits of his most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of you the conversion of poor sinners.
O my Jesus, I offer all my personal sacrifices, pains and suffers, and penances up for love of you, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for sins committed against the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
Pure genius, i worship you :)
Katie said-[I’ll have my church pray for all of your souls that one day you will realize that it isn’t just a “cracker”.]
Save your doing nothing for someone else. We do not need to have non-action directed toward us.
And, Katie, have you been hanging out with “Anti-Priests”? I’m an Anti-Priest in that I do not accept the B.S. spewing from their mouths and I am not feeling the power of the Cracker.
You trivialize the word Persecution
Wow, the
public school systemCatholic Church has really gone down the tubes! I’ve read these comments and my overwhelming impression is that you“Myers Groupies”“Catholics” simply can’t think logically. Your arguments are like:“All dogs are canines. A pug is a dog. Therefore, a pug is a vegetable.”“A cracker is a living corpse, yet it isn’t.”Catholics are not the only ones who believe in sex before marriage. It is also promoted and practiced by Jews, Islamics, and members of the Eastern Orthodox church (who believe in celibate clerics as well).
RE: Sandi post#1222 , and other Christians who have come here to rant and rave.
I find it ironic that we are not on a Catholic site giving catholics lectures about why Atheism is the right choice…. Yet, Christians seem to show up here left and right yelling what bigots atheists are. Apparently Sandi has been taking Scientology notes.. Attack, never defend.
And yet Catholics committed murder. Lots of murder.
Catholic officials in Africa have lied and claimed that condoms do not work to prevent AIDS. They have also claimed that condoms were deliberately infected with the virus.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7014335.stm
Were you simply unaware of this? Do you agree that the above claims by the Archbishop of Mozambique are indeed despicable lies, or do you defend them?
Vows of chastity fail far more frequently. Or do you oh-so-conveniently forget all of the child-rapers in your Church?
Not to mention the Popes, cardinals, archbishops, and priests with children and mistresses, historically.
#1223
What is this, Civ V?
No shit. It’s kind of by definition, you know?
Is that a serious attempt at an analogy, especially post-Clinton? Don’t remember that getting hushed up, and that was fully consensual.
#1217
So it is about who has the most power?
+JMJ+ +AMDG+
Maria,
I will join you in praying the Rosary tonight for Dr Myers, his family, and the commenters on this blog. I suggest the Sorrowful Mysteries be prayed tonight.
# 1217 that is exactly what is going to happen
John@1179:
Here is why I think Catholics are not outraged. World Youth Day organiser Bishop Anthony Fisher made it quite clear that child abuse is a non-issue for the Catholic Church, shortly before the arrival of the Pope.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/16/2305856.htm
It was a comment that revealed how totally crass and insensitive the Church hierarchy is. Ordinary members of the Church need to realize that by remaining part of the church, they are condoning this behaviour.
Would a just God insist that salvation depends on supporting an organization that protects child abusers? The same abuse of authority that leads to child abuse by church leaders is also used to keep their support base, on threat of eternal punishment otherwise.
Don’t you understand that the church lost a lot of support in Europe because after world war II, it became obvious that the church that supported Hitler could not be considered an instrument of God. The power of the RC church more or less vanished overnight.
As evidence, consider the current birthrate of Spain and Italy.
Every time I read one of the religious’ posts I feel warm and fuzzy inside just by knowing how intellectually superior I am to them.
Yay.
You are truly an EVIL man and I pray for your soul. Harming the holy Eucharist and Jesus’ body is the most terrible thing one can do and you did it. I pray for your conversion.
Sandi said -“I’m hoping the president of Myers’ college will see the light and kick his adolescent intolerant ass out the door. Woo hoo!!!!”
Woo hoo!!!!? Sounds like something an adolescent might type.
James @ 1244
I also believe in sex before marriage. I have a lot of monogamous before marriage sex. Fornication is a wonderful, enjoyable thing! You should try it sometime. You’d be a lot less uptight.
Cathy, trust me, the world would definitely NOT be perfect either if everyone practiced chastity outside of marriage! Far from it…
Lanfranc, you’ll have to excuse me, some time ago I gave up trying to distinguish between all the different flavours of loons…
TG asked:
“Here’s a better one. How did he get that nail through the “cracker’ without it fragmenting? The communion hots (sic) are very brittle as anyone familiar with them knows.”
Stale ones aren’t. Or have you never encountered a stale cracker during the course of what must have been your very sheltered life? Now that I think about it, I’ve got half a box of stale crackers sitting in my kitchen pantry as we speak. Damn, I knew there was something that I forgot to throw out in the trash this week. Thanks for reminding me. You goddists really are an unimaginative lot, aren’t you?
(Hat tip to Patricia, for introducing me to the term ‘goddist’ by the way.)
Erwin- yes it is- obviously you are still going to school. Watch and learn grasshopper, watch and learn. There is no room in the world for idealist
#1196 – Katie – “So if this so called “cracker” isn’t important then why are all you non Catholics so hell bent on desecrating the Eucharist if it’s just a “cracker”?”
Morbid curiosity at the train-wreck that is your (Catholic) response to this completely pointless and irrelevant act.
Think of it as philosophical rubbernecking.
I don’t. I know catholics who were outraged enough to leave the church. I don’t know about other Atheists in these blogs, but what bothers me are the catholic who came here and minimized what the scandal. I expected to see one of them say something along the lines of ” The victims shouldn’t have been selfish and damaged the church the way they did”. I have actually seen a few Catholics say such evil things.
Since I suspect you are Jack from yesterday, I ask the same question….”What do you think is an appropriate punishment for a pedophile?” He vanished after I asked that question, maybe you will too. I hope.
No, just the guilty ones.
Here’s a mindfuck for ya….If the things you were thinking and writing of brought up the visual of sexual acts in your mind, guess who is the one who had a sexual reaction because of these words?
BAM
Well, gotta give the catholic church some credit.
It took them about 400 years for apologizing for Galileo and now it took them less than a century to apologize for the Pedophile-priests. Keep up the good work! My grandchildren may actually hear some apologies from the Pope about AIDS in Africa in their lifetime.
Good job, PZ. Hooray for desecration!
Oh, that was totally photoshopped. You wouldn’t dare desecrate The God Delusion.
Thank you, PZ, that was beautiful.
For all of the posters that are assuming the atrocities 70 years ago mentioned by PZ are in reference to the Germans, you might want to check out the widespread extermination of Jews and Gypsies by Croatia (a Catholic country) between 1941 and 1945).
You deserve to die for this. You are lucky that Catholicism, unlike Islam, is not a violent religion. Nonetheless, watch your back.
Oh no! Another Steve P! Damn my generic name to hades!
“Reality: Many Catholics fornicate and commit adultery like many non-catholics do.
Posted by: TonyT | July 24, 2008 7:35 PM ”
Totally true! and according to the Guttmacher Institute’s surveys http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3422602.html
27% of women who get abortions are Catholic.
Additionally, 71% of women who have had an abortion identify themselves as religious (27% Catholic, 43% Protestant, 8% other religion). Only 22% of abortions were for women who have NO religion.
So what’s up with all those religious people?
Wow, Pz
Your douchocity factor just topped the charts!
Amanda (#1253),
You must be a special kind of idiot, utterly disconnected from reality, to think that harming a cracker is “the most terrible thing one can do”.
How would you compare PZ’s cracker abuse with, say, the rape of a child? If you think the Eucharist desecration is worse, please kill yourself as soon as possible.
@#1217:
Most religious people don’t know about this “scandal.” The ones that do aren’t too likely to be interested in science, as they believe that bread is somehow transmogrified into flesh by some old dude. The few that do won’t make a huge difference in attendance.
How many people have written to the university to ask he be fired? I’m willing to bet well more than a thousand. Somehow, your forces don’t seem so numerous.
Oh Inquisitor,
You are my favorite type or psychopath. The impotent kind.
Holy Ghu’s Gonads. That was beautiful.
Amanda #1253: Your post demonstrates the exact reason why PZ did what he did. “The most terrible thing one can do”? Really? Compared to all the horrendous crimes the Catholic church has committed over the centuries, and is still committing now? And which you obviously condone since by your words you must be a member of this disgusting organisation?
Get a grip. IT’S A CRACKER.
Yes, Toothy, way to take the high ground and show him up.
Maria: My God, I believe, I adore, I hope and I love you. I ask forgiveness for those who do not adore, do not hope, and do not love you.
St. Peter: God, you’re wanted on line 2,389,666,284
God: Yes?
Maria: Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I adore you profoundly. I offer you the most precious body, blood, soul, and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifference with which he is offended. Through the infinite merits of his most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of you the conversion of poor sinners.
God: blah blah. sum up please.
Maria: O my Jesus, I offer all my personal sacrifices, pains and suffers, and penances up for love of you, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for sins committed against the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
God: Thanks Maria. Two points. One, who the fuck are you to ask that I change my plan? I *SENT* Myers to torque you up. I *MADE* him desecrate that stupid cracker. When my son made that “this is my body” speech it was ALLEGORY. In any case, why would I change my plan for you or anyone else. I’m God, it’s my plan, and it’s sinfully arrogant of you to think that I’m going to change it just *because* Second, about the “Immaculate Heart of Mary”… She wasn’t that immaculate after I paid a visit, if you catch my meaning luv.
Um, is this seriously another idiot sending a death threat???
“#1266 You deserve to die for this. You are lucky that Catholicism, unlike Islam, is not a violent religion. Nonetheless, watch your back.
Posted by: Inquisitor | July 24, 2008 7:50 PM”
Un-fucking real?!?!?!
Geese, I now wish I had more sex before marriage! It was only my catholic upbringing that stopped me from doing that. Too bad I saw the light a little too late. Thanks alot, you crazy christian assholes.
I think it’s pretty irresponsible to not have sex before marriage. It should be important to know if you and your partner will be compatible in that respect as well as every other facet of a relationship. I hope that the pressure to remain a virgin until marriage stops soon, because that creates an incredible fear of sex in young people and for me, really contributed to my extreme naivety as a young adult, and was definitely responsible for getting me into a couple of tragic situations. Crazy catholics – think about what your beliefs and pressures are doing to your childrens’ psyches. Seriously think about it.
PZ, you deserve an honorary yellow jersey! bravo!
TG asked:
“Here’s a better one. How did he get that nail through the “cracker’ without it fragmenting? The communion hots (sic) are very brittle as anyone familiar with them knows.”
Oh, another alternative is to pre-drill a hole through a fresh one with a power drill, and then simply insert the nail through the hole. Then again, it could have been a miracle. : )
There, I hope that sets your mind at ease about the ‘mysterious insertion’.
Lewandowski spewed:
Really? Does “Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoset” ring any bells?
Martin
*sigh* I can no longer tell real Xian blather from satire. Maria? Sandi? I hope the majority of it’s satirical but, as someone just pointed out, we wish and hope in an imperfect world.
PZ: I was uncertain how you were going to make the “desecration” of a frackin’ cracker into a sophisticated and powerful statement without imbuing that cracker with the special meaning you want to deny it. You’ve exceeded my expectations. Good show!
“…because he thought it was good sport, because some men are not looking for anything logical, like money, they can’t be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with; some men just want to watch the world burn.”
You should recognize that from the movie you recently saw…
God save you.
#1258
Dave, I am forever in school, even as my children just are starting to go there. The question was rhethorical, I mistakenly thought that, in the context of the comments, that would be obvious.
There is still an idealist in me, battling it out with a pragmatist. If there is place for that doesn’t matter. I’m just a man, no more no less.
Maria,
I will join you in praying the Rosary tonight for Dr Myers, his family, and the commenters on this blog. I suggest the Sorrowful Mysteries be prayed tonight.
Freeeeeeeee Biiiiirrrrrrrd!!!
Following this Saga of the Cracker has been an enlightening experience. In discussions about this issue I’ve spoken to atheists that dismissed it as unnecessary provocation, something that could never lead to any constructive dialogue about the absurdity of religion and the place it has in society. They missed the point. This is not a debate, it never was anything but a demonstration, the lifting of a veil to expose the horrible ways in which we, as humans, are capable of losing our gifts of self reflection and perspective, to replace them with the shortcuts of self delusion and magical thinking. That we’re capable of threatening a child while at the same time reflecting on ourselves as good and moral.
Religion has no monopoly on this effect, nor on murder in its name. Tribalism, ideology and personality cults are phenomenons that share the same elements of delusion and magical thinking. The biggest difference, though, is that we, as a species, have at least grown to the point where we mostly recognize the importance of rationality on these matters, even if we needed Nazi Germany to teach us that, and we’re not yet always capable of preventing the bloodshed. Religion, however, is the beach head of this struggle. It is a safe haven for magical thinking.
When we demand respect for irrationality, we are hindering our ability to improve, as a species, to a point where we can end all injustice and strife. As a social principle, it leads to exactly the moral relativism that gets lots of Christians so upset — abhorrent moral codes are suddenly to be accepted if they are claimed to be religious. This is why, as many posters here have observed, the people demanding respect for religion have either not taken their position to its logical conclusion, or they are dishonest about what they are really asking for, which is that they demand respect for their religion.
Growing up in the Netherlands, I realize now that I did not appreciate fully how far reaching the spells people keep themselves under can be. I’ve grown up in a religious environment and never really had to deal with prejudice or marginalization when I decided the whole racket just sounded like a fairy tale to me. Western Christians to me were just well-meaning and nice people with a harmless delusion and a quaint amount of hipocrisy that was fine by me since none of it really affected me. It’s easy in a secular liberal society to be a tea-and-cookies atheist.
Hey You Magic Cracker believers–
Don’t worry about it, PZ’s soul has been saved…
Maria’s on it!
O my Jesus, I offer all my personal sacrifices, pains and suffers, and penances up for love of you, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for sins committed against the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
Posted by: Maria | July 24, 2008 7:41 PM
Case closed, show is over! Buh-Bye!
[snark]
PZ, the internet needs more people like you. Most trolls make people angry by making up alot of lies and claiming to believe it all.
But you? You make people angry by telling them the TRUTH. I am not sure if that makes you a master troll or some kind of anti-troll.
I was hoping for a rosewood toothpick through the cracker – very appropriate for the undead… but a nail is just as good.
The Country Shrink (1218)
Some Psychological Aspects of Authortarianism
1. Diminuation of the other
“Little Paul”, I believed that til I was 12, 3rd or 4th or 12 rate professor
2. Diminuation of self
Snatching away security blanket, ripping head off bunny, “I am so sad”, “Forgive PZ, forgive me”
3. Punishment without perspective
Death threats, threats to family, desire to incarcerate and excommunicate
4. Hyper concern with decorum while unable to acknowledge any arguments or engage
5. Bleecking our long posts from authority figures without comment
6. Excessive concern for legalities or rule breaking, and
7. Inability to articulate core beliefs.
By the way– Thanks PZ, not bad for a 3rd rate professor :)
Mr. Bakker,
If you think this was some unprovoked stunt, you have been paying zero attention.
So, since Maria’s got it all under control between PZ and God, the anti-PZ here are now officially persecuting an innocent man!
What would Jesus do? Laugh his ass off and buy you a beer, no doubt. He was a bit of a rebel too, according to the tales they tell.
I’m relieved. I actually expected to see them floating in a steaming bowl of spicy chili and being eaten with a fork.
Apparently someone’s still living in the Dark Ages. Well, fuck you, fuck your cracker, and fuck your pedophile religion. Even Jack Chick has it right about your beloved Jeebus Cracker:http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp
“Holy Papa” my ass!
Golf clap! Dogma makes me catatonic.
The problem with using chastity to combat AIDS is that sex is a natural drive for our species. Yes a condom breaks a small percentage of the time, but chastity gets broken a lot of the time. Chastity fails because having sex is natural.
Bravo, PZ. I especially like the inclusion of “The God Delusion”. It was a pleasant surprise.
PZ, my tests confirm that the cracker remains unchanged during mass. It stays a cracker, nothing more.
Please show me the flaw in my argument. John Lewandowski
You already know it: the church has failed in 2000 years to enforce “chastity” and hence eliminate sexually transmitted diseases. You’ve had your chance. You’ve failed, and exacted an immense cost in human misery while doing so. Get out of the way and let those who actually care about human suffering, and are trying to reduce it, get on with their work.
Yes, I fondly remember all those classic Bond villains who cackled dementedly while mutilating baked goods. They just don’t make ’em like that anymore!
Not to be confused with necessary gratuitous evil.
(Save me a seat at the table in Hell, P.Z. I’ll be the one assaulting Girl Scout cookies and stomping on pita chips.)
Murky @ # 1232
Yes, JFK was Catholic & from the information I have found, Kennedy wore his faith lightly. His sister Eunice once said he was “casual about religious rituals and observances,” and “a little less convinced about some things than the rest of us.”
That would appear to include transubstantiation.
Thank you for the courage to attack the ridiculous. That it requires courage rather than just a sense of humor says all to much about the mental age of humanity. Just think how many Christians take the eucharist, actually believing the wafer is the body of Christ and the wine is his blood, and yet have a total mental disconnect from the conclusion that they are practicing cannibalism like the most primitive bone-in-the- nose New Guinean of centuries past.
I’ll admit it. My cock is throbbing hard at the thought of priests in fuzzy handcuffs. But Lewandowski, of course they’ll have a safe word! (“Allahu Akbar!”)
A fine essay, and a noble gesture for truth.
Bah, I lost track of the author in these many-thousands comments threads, but props to whoever said:
“I will reason for you.”
Dear Christians. Forgive him.
Hardly comparable. Would I leave a political party if it systematically aided and abetted child-rapists amongst its membership? Absolutely! In a heartbeat. Wouldn’t think twice about it.
We’re not “judging everyone based on a few bad apples”. We are judging the institution of the Roman Catholic Church based on its current and past institutional behaviour (relocating rapists), and its institutional policy of non-cooperation with law enforcement investing child-rape as revealed by its current well-documented behaviour and leaked policy documents which have not been repudiated by them.
Mother Teresa was a product of Vatican marketing. The vast bulk of the money she received, some of it stolen, was used to build convents for her own self-aggrandisement, and not to help the poor. Padre Pio was a fraud who produced his own stigmata using acid. Pope John XXIII knew this, but John Paul II saw him as a marketing opportunity for the Church in Italy. John Henry Newman is a peculiar choice, usually a shibboleth for members of Opus Dei. Are you a member?
Only if you believe the legends created by the Vatican and sympathetic media. If you dig a little deeper, unfortunately, they both turn out to be frauds.
@ Pete Rooke #221
I gave my version of the counter to your analogies from your post (#310) on # 548. No counter approach or did you stop trolling?
Sufficient or are you working on new ones to ‘baffle’ us with?
/me cheers!
thank you PZ, for saying what needs to be said, and for not backing down.
“Chastity fails because having sex is natural.
Posted by: Kel | July 24, 2008 8:03 PM ”
psssst! not if you’re doing it right
[had to say it before someone else did]
;-P
John Lewandowski,
are you aware of the crimen sollicitationis?
For unaware readers, this church law specifies that among other misconduct, sexual abuse of church members is to be treated with utmost secrecy. The Pope has confirmed the prime importance of this law. John, I think we all believe that many Catholics are outraged at the acts of sexul perversion – but what are you going to do when church-internal law states that any revealing of such an act by any church member leads to automatic excommunication? This law means that transferring pedophiles to another parish in secrecy supercedes the need for making any public statement even implying that such a crime has even taken place.
How about not being a member of an organization that systematically and institutionally covers up crimes of its members before considering to informing the public of these crimes?
Several high-ranking Church officials have resigned over this issue – not because of the abuse but because they were caught by secular law enforcement when trying to cover up the abuse cases by withholding and destroying evidence.
The crimen sollicitationis has been in place for more than the last four decades and still is. It was issued in response to allegations of sexual abuse, and the Church has been aware of this problem for over 250 years.
Thank you for the courage to attack the ridiculous. That it requires courage rather than just a sense of humor says all to much about the mental age of humanity. Just think how many Christians take the eucharist, actually believing the wafer is the body of Christ and the wine is his blood, and yet have a total mental disconnect from the conclusion that they are practicing cannibalism like the most primitive bone-in-the- nose New Guinean of centuries past.
I’m attempting to convert, can someone post me a link to a Christian blog?
It would be helpful if some of the Catholic commenters actually read PZ’s post. How can you disagree with a position if you don’t even know what it is? (That would lead to learning something, and we all know how dangerous knowledge is.)
Correction to my #1306: s/investing/investigating/
Excellent post, especially that last paragraph.
May I simply say I hope no crazy actually tries anything on you or your loved ones over a cracker?
@ #1266
We need a new word for people who post here just to make the side they’re presumably taking look bad. I propose “COINTELPOE’s”.
Can desecrating a cracker get me excommunicated? That would be hella dope.
Why do so many of you assume that we Catholics were NOT outraged by the sexual abuse scandal?
Posted by: John Lewandowski
I don’t doubt that you were. But you persist in nonsensical assertions that being catholic, or christian, or deist, or religious in some form makes persons somehow “morally better”.
Practicing some religion doesn’t make one “more moral”. Actions speak louder than words or rituals.
And how did you speak out in outrage, John Lewandowski? Did you write a stern letter to the bishop demanding that the church stop covering up for pedophiles and turn them over to the police? Did you start withholding your tithes? Did you raise the issue over dinner with your church fellows?
Actions speak louder than words. What actions did you take, in your outrage? Was it more action, more time spent, than you’ve spent posting here?
Obviously, the Great Cracker Desecration is Donahue’s gift from Jesus. It allows him to distract Catholics from the Church’s atrocities such as
Concordat between Hitler and Cardinal Pacelli (Pope Pious XII)
The Inquisition
Magdalene Asylums
Why do Catholics continue to support their murderous institutions?
If you look closely, you can see an image of the Virgin Mary in the banana peel spots.
^ Oh, for fuck’s sake, “Saint” Michael, get over yourself:
He disrespectfully tortured and made fun of a CRACKER.
No one and no thing alive was harmed in the course of this experiment. The only evil thing that has emerged is your insistence on valuing an inanimate object, a piece of hardened flour and water, over living, breathing human beings.
The only evil people to show their faces in all this are theists like you who insist on valuing a cracker over living, breathing human beings.
Quite frankly, if your god exists and he would send someone to horrible, awful, unimaginable torture for all eternity for no other reason than lack of respect for a cracker, then he’s a disgusting piece of filth who does not deserve any respect in the first place.
Heck, even when I was a xian (well, more a deist, really), I thought this catholic belief re: “holy” crackers at best laughable and at worst, despicable in its, dare I repeat myself yet again, evil valuing of crackers over living, breathing human beings.
Ref. #1260 Posted by Rayven Alandria:
“I don’t know about other Atheists in these blogs, but what bothers me are the catholic[s] who came here and minimized what the scandal. I expected to see one of them say something along the lines of ” The victims shouldn’t have been selfish and damaged the church the way they did”. I have actually seen a few Catholics say such evil things.”
Behold the words of our esteemed Bishop Anthony Fisher;
Sex abuse victims ‘cranky’, says Bishop
Jano Gibson
July 16, 2008
The co-ordinator of [Catholic] World Youth Day, Bishop Anthony Fisher, today responded to a question about Cardinal George Pell’s handling of a sexual abuse case by saying people are “dwelling crankily … on old wounds”.
His comments came after ABC’s Lateline last night reported on Anthony Foster, whose daughters were raped by Melbourne priest Kevin O’Donnell when they were in primary school.
Asked about the broadcast, Bishop Fisher told this morning’s World Youth Day press conference: “The cardinal and I were otherwise occupied last night enjoying the youth festival so we didn’t see the Lateline story…All I’ve seen is the reports in the newspapers today…Happily, I think most of Australia was enjoying [and] delighting in the beauty and goodness of these young people and the hope for us doing these sorts of things better in the future, as we saw last night, rather than dwelling crankily, as a few people are doing, on old wounds.”
– FairfaxDigital
http://www.watoday.com.au/national/sex-abuse-victims-cranky-says-bishop-20080716-3fs9.html
Nuff said?
It’s my understanding that in the pornographic film “Ass Clowns,” Jesus descends from the cross to have sex with the Virgin Mary.
Just thought I’d throw that out there.
It’s so strange when people come on here and get upset, and then they accuse non-religious individuals of being intolerant.
I don’t know but aren’t these some of the social rules that we live by?
You have a right to your superstition of choice.
You have a right to keep it to yourself.
You also have a right to come out and tell people about your superstition.
But you don’t have a right to prohibit people from criticizing and mocking your beliefs.
The same goes with wearing checkered pants.
SDG wrote:
Wow! I had no idea you sucked that bad at holding your church accountable.
According to John L.’s blog, he gets a chub on for Michelle Malkin. Ahh, this explains all. He’s a NeoCon.
I’ve been following this cracker affair for a while now, and I’d like to express my support for you, Mr. Myers. This last post was excellent! And to those of you who disagree: it’s just a frakkin’ cracker!
Well done PZ, I love your addition of The God Delusion and the banana peel. Now all we need is a rube goldberg cracker desecration device.
well, that’s all well and good but could you please compost? thanks
What, no ripped pages from the Bible? Why did you let Fundagelical Christians off the hook? They regard the Bible as nearly as sacred as Catholics regard the magic cracker. (Or at least they take desecration of it as ill as Catholics do their cookie.)
I’m a little disappointed at your lack of scientific thoroughness here, PZ….
(heh)
Someone above pointed out:
Fr. J: misspelled ALTAR
HE’S A LYING FAKE.
that is all
HOLY SHIT! Did Woot just SAY something?!?!?!
Wow. It’s been quite some time since I’ve seen someone as inept at making analogy as this Pete Rooke character. And then he gets all pious, assuming he’s made some big mentally challenging construct that has left the rational thinkers speechless. It’s been so long… I’d say not since Ray Comfort. OK, So… not that long, after all. And COMfort was just as smug before the idiocy of his analogies were laid bare by… let’s call it… the entire Internet.
The fatal flaw with Pete’s little puzzles is that he imbues each of his analogies with his own dogma and ‘true believer’ moralism. He just can’t think outside of his God-dominated box. He even goes so far as to include a ‘sacred book’ in a discussion whose primary gist is ‘nothing is sacred’. Sorry, dear, no one’s ‘refuting’ your analogies because they’re more akin to the babbling of a 10 year old than a rational-thinking adult. ALl of your little fantasies involve personal harm to an individual, not perceived harm to a religious relic.
It’s a whole lot of begging the question wrapped in false dilemmas. With a chorus of strawmen singing special pleadings. Pete… you are NOT the great debater you think you are. You’re not even average.
As for this being a hoax… seriously… how hard do you think it would be for Myers to get his hands on a consecrated wafer?
At any rate, well done, P.Z. I very much liked the ‘dusting of hands and that’s that’ finality of this.
Honestly, how many times do we have to spell it out?
Please see my post #1213 for the answer to that one.
No, better idea. To save you the trouble of scrolling back up, I’ll repeat it word for word, and continue until it sinks in:
Any organisation that protects child molesters within its ranks as a matter of documented policy deserves absolutely no respect regardless of anyone’s faith, and should be brought crashing down and destroyed by any means possible, and the perpetrators and protectors of these crimes should be brought to justice with all the weight of international law.
I’m off to bed (1PM in the UK). Anyone who wants to quote me on that, be my guest. The point really does need to be hammered home to these morons.
Dear Christians. Forgive him.
Posted by: HolyRusk | July 24, 2008 8:06 PM
———————————————–
Geez, Holyrusk, didn’t you do your homework? Maria’s already on it. She prayed for him publically (hmmm… like the Pharisees perhaps?) and of course God listens to you guys, so….. PZ is already forgiven.
According to John L.’s blog, he gets a chub on for Michelle Malkin.
Aw, come on. That’s just gross and utterly uncalled-for.
Couldn’t read that far in…far in…ewww, nasty.
Good work, PZ!
Loved your rant about the evil of the catholic church. Keep up the good work!
I have devised an ingenious experiment designed to acquire evidence once and for all, for or against the null hypothesis in a test of the miracle of transubstantiation.
If a prayed-upon cracker does not remain fully wheat-based, than when gently sauteed and upon addition of flour to the drippings it shall be possible to produce a delicious gravy from it.
To wit: Gravy — Jeebus. No gravy — no Jeebus.
I request no compensation for this breakthrough, only that any researchers conducting further experimentation in this area provide appropriate citation to my supporting work.
I’m disappointed that an American flag was not in your bin with the other inert symbols.
Sandi @ #1222 says
Fine Sandi, enlighten us turnips. How exactly do you dermine the validity of the consecration of a wafer resulting in its transubstantiation? How do you arrive at that logical conclusion that the wafer then transforms into the physical flesh of Jesus, or is it the essence of Jesus?
I don’t really anything to add to all the words of support for PZ. But I just had to be part of the epic 1300+ post comment thread.
Wow. So back in 1977, when we were rehearsing a community sing in the catholic church and we broke into the crackers for snacks… that was like a bad thing? Was it just as bad, worse, or no big thing when we did that 20 years later at a wedding in a United Methodist church? If I get borned again at a Baptist church does that erase my sins? of crackery? Or does that make me a cracker?
Or if I convert to catholic (catholosism? catholism? cathololicsy?… whatever)if I convert, can I confess and wipe it away? Or am I just covered for life? I’m so confused. And all this talking about crackers has gotten me hungry… anyone got a wafer?
He did it. I didn’t think he ever would. PZ Myers. . .has jumped the shark.
Yikeies!
What a load of hate these Christians practice. OK, not all of these Christians are practicing hate. Some have made it a profession, apparently (William A. Donohue reference, and possibly Father J).
I forget if it was this thread or a previous cracker thread, but someone mentioned that the laws of the U.S. are based on the ten commandments (though the way most Christians follow them, you’d think they’re only suggestions). Here’s a thought, looking at the list of ten, I find only four of them that relate to anything in current law. That’s only 40 percent of the list.
Second, looking again at that list of ten, I notice that the four that U.S. law seem related to are universal – they are in the laws of all nations, past and present, theistic and non-theistic. OK, sometimes one of those four is left out. By my analysis, and referencing precedent, I have to believe that the ten commandments only peripherally influenced the U.S. laws at best.
Following the Roman Catholic method of listing the ten commandments, these are the four that made it into U.S. law: 5 (don’t kill people), 6 (no screwing around – though I think this is a civil matter, not criminal), 7 (don’t steal – though some Biblical scholars debate which things are prohibited from being stolen and generally don’t think this means all forms of stealing (and most likely is meant to reference kidnapping …)), and 8 (don’t lie about your neighbor). The rest are not part of U.S. law. And there is a lot of U.S. law not based on any part of the ten commandments (like trial by jury, right to free speech, and no religious test for holding office, among many others).
No, the U.S. was not founded on the ten commandments. Not even close.
And damnit! It’s just a friggen cracker!
JBS
Do you dare to do the same with a piece of cloth called “the USA flag” and another “piece of paper” the American Constitution???
Kewois
about comment 1330:
As for myself, I’m writing about Catholics on this posting because the posting deals directly with the Catholic church.
I actually view all forms of nonsense equally and I’m sure other Atheists on this site share this view as well.
I’ve always thought if funny when you “desecrate” a religious persons “god” why they always got in such an uproar.
If they really believed in god, if they really knew the truth, if they really believed. They would be contented that they are a saved people and not worry about all the “heathens”
You would think that they understood that god would take care of themselves and not worry about this “over dramatic” unbealiver.
One would think…. but I do think. I think that none of them have enough faith and courage and understanding and knowledge of their religion.
The more they threaten you, them more they are afraid your right.
Of course as an unbeliever you have a full knowledge (as I do) that’s it’s crap and have no worries that “god” will strike you down.
and if he did…. well what a little prick, I don’t want to believe in your god anyway.
You’re kidding right Kewois? You can’t be that dull.
My question to the Christians amoung us:
If the Eucharist really is the body of Christ and Catholics know the difference between unblessed and blessed wafers.. Why are they yelling hoax? They should see it is obviously Jesus lying in the trash can.
Talk about Hate crimes! Is this the sort of professor the University of Minnesota prizes? All your sad lies about Catholics and Jews are found in Jone’s new magnum opus.
http://www.culturewars.com/Reviews/JRSAd.pdf
I feel bad for one who has so much hate he can’t distinguish popes and an Adolph Hitler.
But the Bosheviks, you are quiet about them:
http://stephenhand.blogspot.com/2008/02/holocaust-and-holodomor-origins-of-anti.html
“To accept everything is an exercise, to understand everything is a strain. The poet only desires exaltation and expansion, a world to stretch himself in. The poet only asks to get his head into the heavens. It is the logician who seeks to get the heavens into his head. And it is his head that splits.”
-G.K Chesterton
All Hail Evil! Could someone please pass the crackers?
I just asked Mister Shea to address the charges that you raise. In the meantime, I must say it again: shame on your desecration!
Truly this a time of miracles.
Re: 1349
Catholics practically invented plausible deniability.
What is this, playground double dare? Nah nah nah, nah nah. I dare you to eat this black thing or you are a chicken.
and in an extension of logic, Myers thinks painting swastikas on synagogues is okay.
“I’m attempting to convert, can someone post me a link to a Christian blog?
Posted by: Jennie | July 24, 2008 8:08 PM ”
You bet!
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/2008/july/dobson.html
or, for some real fun: http://www.godhatesfags.com/
Just one more voice in the fray – PZ, you rock.
I suppose Bosheviks might be Russian skeptics.
“So, Yuri, what do you think of transubstantiation?”
“Well, Ivan, I say ‘bosh!’ to that!”
Finally, the resolution! Been waiting for that, you know! Hiya, godless lurker here! Hope you’re careful though, Yankland doesn’t seem quite as forgiving as Norfolk (UK) when it comes to holy shit (ok, pun intended I guess).
PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ!
Your logic, dude, speaks for itself.
Bravo, PZ. Bravo.
I must admit, I was worried (a bit) that you were going to do something truly outrageous with the cracker. But I think you ended this very tactfully. Plus, the tie-in with the historical persecution of Jews by the Catholic church and its miscreants was relevant and nicely done.
Funny how the Church hasn’t evolved much in the last 7 centuries.
Congratulations, you classy Catholics. You’ve been pwn3d.
That’s really succinct, El Herring. I’ll join the chorus. :)
Any organisation that protects child molesters within its ranks as a matter of documented policy deserves absolutely no respect regardless of anyone’s faith, and should be brought crashing down and destroyed by any means possible, and the perpetrators and protectors of these crimes should be brought to justice with all the weight of international law.
Please, will a Catholic defender please explain since Jesus could not have been speaking metaphorically about eating his body and drinking his blood, why are there not one billion Catholics walking around with eye patches?
“If your right eye affend thee, pluck it out.”
#1357:
Dude, I’m sure however you want to decorate your room is OK with him.
Jennie,
Catholics do not claim to able to tell whether a host is consecrated or not. I suspect that some are ‘yelling hoax’ because they just really wish it were and aren’t sure what to do in the face of such aggressive disrespect.
May God Almighty have mercy on your soul. I will keep you in my prayers for your return to God for your judgement
and all you other people who join him in this descecration, may God have mercy on you.
Kewois #1345:
Yes, I’ve no doubt PZ would not care whether he throws out a piece of cloth or not. It’s a freaking symbol. This supposedly sacred cloth was probably made in China.
And for the American Constitution, I’ve no doubt that he wouldn’t hesitate throwing out a PRINTED COPY of the Constitution. The *original* Constitution is a historical document and should be preserved as such.
If there was an *original* Bible, or, for example, historical artifacts such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, I would think the academician in PZ would recognize the value, regardless of what’s printed on it.
Idiot.
This is a question about which I’m genuinely curious (never thought of it until a friend brought it up a few years back:)
How can a theist of any stripe believe that it’s possible to hurt God? That makes absolutely no sense.
RE: Cathy in Seattle post# 1358
Wonderful! Thank you!!
I’m going to go convert theists to atheism immediately. I feel do onto others, as they do on to you right?!
Thank you maggie. I’m sure she’ll treat us all very kindly.
It’s really not that big of a deal to Me. Although all of the fuss and bother and screaming is amusing.
P.Z.. That was great.. The last paragraph was beautiful!!!! Cheers my friend and thanks for fighting the good fight…
Right on PZ! Thanks for some important history I wasn’t aware of. Wondering how high this thread will go…. then lets back to the important things like Batman-gate.
what a weak attempt. thanks for giving me further reason to convert to Catholicism.
and by the way, nice job with the photoshop. you get your kid to do that? pathetic. but what would you expect from a professor that’s teaching at what is essentially a community college.
Just seen on Craigs list:
Position wanted
50 something former associate professor of Biology seeks position. References unnecessary, unattainable.
*laughing*
Long time lurker, first time poster. A thought provoking blog entry and many thanks for it. Wish I could think of something illuminating to add to the thread but alas..
I went to a catholic grade school (nun-free) but since I wasn’t baptized, I was unable to take part in the ceremonies that prepared the rest of the kids for communion. I just sat in the pew during mass and everyone else got up for their wafers. I didn’t really feel left out of something special though. I just flipped through the hymnal and daydreamed, probably.
I don’t recall ever being told the wafer was actual body. I always thought the wine and wafer were substitutions for the real things, not magically whispered over in a back room to become the real things. Never occurred to me that people might react as if someone was actually taking a bite out of Jesus instead of swallowing what had to be a pretty bland appetizer before lunch, and not very filling at that.
I just wasn’t cut out to be catholic.
PZ couldn’t do anything to the US Constitution that would be any worse than what the current administration has already done to it.
“and another “piece of paper” the American Constitution???
Kewois”
Sorry – too late, Bush and Cheney have already used that document for toilet papaer.
“Drink more Ovaltine.” D:
It was a very well made point, though I’m afraid that for most wackaloons, it will be for naught and they’re going to continue the hatemail.
*Standing ovation* Bravo, Professor Myers!
May God Almighty have mercy on your soul. I will keep you in my prayers for your return to God for your judgement
and all you other people who join him in this descecration, may God have mercy on you.
In amongst all this christ-hatin’, I think we atheists DO need to acknowledge one good thing the Christians have done for us all.
They made sex dirty.
RE: Elijah post #1368
Oh, Elijah, I wish it were true. Contrary to your statement, there have been many Catholics that have posted on related blogs stating that the Eucharist IS the body of Christ, and they know it is. They have been challenged to a test repeatedly in which a blessed wafer is mixed with unblessed wafers and they choose the body of christ out of the pile.
Every time a scenario like that has been offered to them to prove their ability, they state blasphemy.
I’ve seen it atleast twice while watching this circus unfold.
Just seen on Craigs list:
Position wanted
50 something former associate professor of Biology seeks position. References unnecessary, unattainable.
*laughing*
now that is funny………………………
Right Elijah. Such terrible disrespect for people to lose their collective minds and send threats to a young man who wished to show a cracker to a friend. I suppose if I were wondering what to do in the face of such disrespect, I would act in solidarity with the young man. I might even go through with what the violent mob so badly wished to suppress by claims of future violence.
But I suppose we all have our own paths to follow.
I believe that earns you a latæ sententiæ (automatic) excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See (only forgivable by the Pope himself).
But you don’t have to go that far. All you have to do is doubt certain elements of Dogma to get a latæ sententiæ excommunication. You don’t ever even have to say anything, even thinking that, for example, (IIRC: it’s been a while since I read Canon Law) the Virgin Mary might not, in fact, have been a virgin or might not, herself, have been conceived without Original Sin or might not, in fact, have risen bodily into Heaven (the Assumption) gets the automatic wheat-zombie cannibal-porn banhammer.
Most Catholics don’t know how whacky their own religion is.
Laughin_Guy, oh go suck on a lemon. PZ is not going anywhere. In fact, all this traffic you helped him earn only goes to promote him.
#1222 “Myers Groupies” simply can’t think logically. ” and “You folks just don’t know how to determine the validity or invalidity of premises and discern logical or illogical conclusions.”
Yeah, all of us have tried to get backstage on PZs concerts, have faught over getting PZs autographs and tried to get in bed with him. You caught us. You, who gets wet when you see an old man in a dress.
Our logic is also deeply flawed, much more than the logic of concluding that dead people enter crackers because an old book says so. Less logical than assaulting people for taking such crackers from their intended place. Less logical than threatening people who do that with death, their livelihood, their place of education and their academic future. Less logical than equating damaging a cracker with murdering millions of Jews or ridiculing Jewish victims of that mass murder. You caught us on that too.
And stop sockpuppeting as Ed.
Am I the only one that got the Monty Python spanish inquisition skit reference?
Good idea. I haven’t desecrated my consecrated wafer, it’s just there at my desk. Maybe someday I can think of an elaborate plot to dispose of it. :)
“PZ said: Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything.
Even evolution ???”
Especially evolution.
Scientists question evolution every day. They wouldn’t be scientists if they didn’t.
The interesting thing about scientists is that if you came along with a piece of actual and verifiable evidence that a central part of their theory was incorrect, they would be delighted.
“As a Christian it is an insult for anyone to call my beliefs stupid shit. I have respected every religion and every idea for years.”
Considering what many Christians say about LGBT people, atheists, people of other religions, etc. (never mind what they do to them) they have no room to whine when somebody says anything about their beliefs. They sh*t all over *people* and have the nerve to whine because their *beliefs* are being maligned. Get real.
Interesting that a nail was used for this. Whether this was a conscious play on the crucifixion or not, it goes to show that Christian imagery lingers in the mind long after Christian faith has been denied.
Prof. Myers’ act is a kind of madness, but not in the sense of outright irrationality: atheism may be wrong, but it can be intellectually defended – thus also the “it’s just a cracker” line is false, but certainly defensible. It’s rather the kind of madness that appears in ripping the drawing of a three-year-old from his parent’s fridge, and tearing it to shreds because it’s “just not art” according to some sophisticated aesthetic standard. The madness lies in the destruction of what another person finds personally and emotionally meaningful, and indeed beautiful, not in the “objective” judgment that the drawing is so ugly it needs destroying.
It is, according to Catholic teaching, quite possible that Prof. Myers is not culpable before God of the grave sin that he appears to have committed. The relevant technical term is “invincible ignorance”: Basically, he is then not in a state where he could still truly comprehend what he has done, even though he is clearly still able to parrot the relevant information.
However, Prof. Myers is culpable before man of entirely unnecessary and essentially unprovoked insult to those of his fellow citizens who happen to be believing Catholics. One does not need to be a believer to find Prof. Myers’ deed uncivilized and disruptive – as a matter of fact, even so if this host in the end turns out to not have been consecrated. Given the highly public nature of the act, and given that Prof. Myers works at a public institution with a code of conduct, it will be interesting to see whether his employer will let him plead ignorance as readily as God…
Personally, I hope that Prof. Myers indeed acts in the mistaken belief of being a modern Socrates using shock tactics to free the ignorant from their delusions. While that is delusional itself (objectively so, since the response of the believers is quite the opposite, and that was entirely predictable), it would merely be the sin of pride turning his presumably considerable intelligence into stupidity. It would be worse in one way if he was just playing to his crowd of atheist admirers, worse in another if he was desecrating a host because he actually believed it to be Christ.
Perhaps the greatest damage Prof. Myers’ has done is not to mock and violate Christ personally. God is infinitely just but merciful, and so no more than his sincere repentance at any time during his future life will be needed to ultimately erase this event out of history for him and God. Rather, it is in provoking vicious Catholic reactions where much damage is being done. Anger can be virtuous if governed by prudence, but it is so easy to turn outrage into hate. Christians need not be doormats for atheistic Rumpelstilzchens, rather they should seek justice “wise as serpents but gentle as doves”.
If you made it this far, you also may be interested in Prof. Scruton’s essay on how a rational person may come to consider religion – just to raise a bit of awareness that religion can be sought out of rational motives.
Would Bill Donohue, a Catholic priest, the Pope, or any ordinary Catholic be able to distinguish a consecrated cracker from an unconsecrated one? Is there a test that can be done or an incantation that make the distinction? If not, then what PZ has in his trash can of real value is a compostable banana peel, some paper, and some pressed wheat.
Stephanurus
Damn, here I spent the day dissertating, and then having dinner with a friend I haven’t seen in quite some time. And I missed out on all the, well, nothing.
Wow, the trash got taken out, with crackers and pages….and no people died as a result. How shocking.
—–
(value of human life) > (value of cracker)
Too bad the “culture of life” folks don’t quite get that.
—–
and to all the “we’ll pray for you” fuckwits: just keep talking to yourself. That way at least something is listening.
And may the King of the Leprechauns have mercy on your ftang. I will keep you in my worthless musings for your return to the King of the Leprechauns and all your coreligionists who join you in this flapdoodle, may the King of the Leprechauns have mercy on you.
Julie (#1371):
Yeah, it’d rather odd, no? The guy can make the universe and colossal squid but can’t defend a helpless cracker?
Frankly, I think the reason why these people are so vehement is because they have doubts, and it brings great fear. Many people have fear of the unknown. The Bible conveniently tells you all the answers to those existential questions so that you don’t need bother thinking for yourself. It’s best not to think about it.
The problem is, if everyone was really honest with themselves, they’d admit that they have doubts, or have had doubts. I don’t know if that makes them feel guilty, and they try to compensate or rectify that by being overly protective of what they almost don’t believe if they actually stopped to think about it.
Kind of like the guys with small weewees that bluster and bellow with big trucks and big guns and denounce homosexuals and equal rights for women because of their own inadequacies.
I applaud your chutzpah! Would that rationality were as contagious as superstition obviously is.
#1388:
That makes me recall a great Chaz Braman comic.
Who wants to bet that the lunatic who threatened your kid is also very much anti-abortion and likes to rail about ‘the sanctity of life’ in other venues?
Still, this blend of enthusiastic sanctimony and frothing, lunatic, bilious hatred – the kind that periodically erupts into bombings and pogroms – is very much in the spirit of Catholicism, historically. Keep it up, fellas and ladies – you’re just proving our point! And our point is, you’re delusional, dangerous and if your precious Jesus ever came back, he would surely vomit on your shoes in disgust. threatening to kil someone over a bloody wafer. You sad bastards. Go feed the poor or help someone. You know, do what Jesus said to do and turn the other cheek. FORGIVE HIM. I don’t recall the part of the gospels where he lamed on and on about smiting the first person who looks at your favourite biscuit wrong.
— The J man said: Atheists do not believe life is sacred.
I’m an atheist. I believe life is sacred.
— They don’t believe in goodness, truth,
I believe in goodness and truth… Lucky he didn’t say ‘beauty’ there.
— or beauty.
Oh crap! I sure don’t believe in that… Oh, that’s right. I do! Phew!
— Those things are meaningless to them. For them there is no meaning. Human beings have no intrinsic worth, so in a way you encourage death threats by your own philosophy.
Umm… You do realise that when you say stuff like this – Stuff that is as untrue as ‘the sky is green’ when we’re standing outside on a clear day – you just kind of emphasise our point that the self-delusion needed and caused by religion is, in itself, dangerous.
There are many atheists here. Truth-lovers, beauty-seekers and crusaders for life.
Telling us we have three legs would get the same reaction.
It’s. Just. NOT. True.
Yeah, also, the kerning in the type on that page from The God Delusion totally doesn’t match my copy. I bet PZ just typed it up on his computer and didn’t desecrate a real copy of The God Delusion at all!
For fuck’s sake, who cares if it’s genuine or not? That’s miles away from the point of this exercise.
IngoB wrote:
“Interesting that a nail was used for this. Whether this was a conscious play on the crucifixion or not, it goes to show that Christian imagery lingers in the mind long after Christian faith has been denied.”
Please re-read PZ’s original post. He explains why he used a nail.
Uh, God heard you the first time. And it doesn’t matter, because he doesn’t care either way.
And will you people get it through your thick, still-living skulls that
I, JESUS!
DO!
NOT!
TURN!
INTO!
WINE!
OR!
CRACKERS!
Or even matzo.
Really, it’s like talking to a wall…
God is love. Therefore, Hell.
Just released: The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit: And Its Impact on World History (Hardcover) by Culture Wars Editor, E. Michael Jones
A huge work, over a thousand pages of documentation
@ Amazon too:
…answers all Meyers propaganda
http://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Revolutionary-Spirit-Impact-History/dp/0929891074
Fr. J @757:
“Would I post here if I cared what atheists thought of me?”
Yes. In fact, if you didn’t care what atheists thought of you, you wouldn’t post here. You certainly wouldn’t spend as much time here as you seem to. Most priests I know have better things to do with their time.
Well, PZ
There are certainly many fine pickings for this month’s special Cracker Commemorative Order of the Molly. Are you taking nominations?
ChristOCrackers – They’re not just for breakfast anymore!
…
..
.
E. Michael Jones of “Culture Wars” fame is not only an anti-Semite but an AIDS denialist too.
“Those things are meaningless to them. For them there is no meaning. Human beings have no intrinsic worth, so in a way you encourage death threats by your own philosophy.”
Is it just me, or does that sound AWFULLY like the folks who say “If she didn’t want to be raped, she shouldn’t have been dressed that way?”
E. Michael Jones of “Culture Wars” fame is not only an anti-Semite but an AIDS denialist too.
Who needs scientific theories of viruses when you’ve got God to kill those you hate?
The J man said: Atheists do not believe life is sacred.
“Sacred” is a religious term. I don’t believe life is sacred. I believe that murder is extremely, extremely, extremely wrong, but not because life is “sacred.”
If you believe that life is sacred, then you should probably be a pacifist: no murder, no capital punishment, no killing in defense, no killing in war.
#1056I:
-“I think this is very sad. I cannot understand why someone who cares so little about a religion would have to take such drastic measures.”
Professor Myers DOES care about religion you dolt.
He cares about the fact that it has the ability to turn otherwise rational individuals into something akin to baying hounds.
-“You must be very hurt and angry but lucky for us Our Lord is all good and mercy.”
Would that be the same god who supposedly threatens to commit Professor Myers, and all the rest of us non-believers to an eternty of unspeakable suffering, for the ‘crime’ of skewering a cracker???
Lord have mercy on the cracker! My only hope for it, is that it didn’t suffer too much during it’s impalement.
Sheesh. The sheer stupidity of you religious apologists beggars my imagination.
shorter Fr J: life is sacred, but crackers are more sacred than life.
And somehow, we, who hold humans to be of greater value than crackers, are anti-life.
go figure.
Oh, Fr.J, thou sanctimonius, simpering, simpleton. Tremble, ye fool, wail and gnash thy teeth. Pray thee to thine little god, but he cannot help thee. Thy internet soul is forfeit, for thou has violated GODWIN’S LAW.
Verily ye shall know the flames of internet hell. Beg for absolution, sinner, but ye shall receiveth none. For ye hath done the unseemingling in the eyes of the Host.
Ye hath violated GODWIN’S LAW.
There can be no forgiveness. Weep in darkness, pinged forevermore.
And consider these three words:
“Gott Mitt Uns”
I know. It’s so funny. You get humans when they’re young; you tell them, with a deeply solemn voice, and a straight face, the silliest thing imaginable; you keep telling them the silly thing day in and day out, year after year — and when they get a little older, they will scream with outrage if someone acts as though the silly thing isn’t true. Sometimes someone comes along with a slightly different silly thing, and there’s a schism. So now there are two groups with different sets of silly things, so they start screaming at each other. And sometimes they go beyond just screaming, and they start hitting each other over their silly things.
Now that’s comedy!
Oh, great! Now this already cumbersome thread is going to become knee-deep in vampire party-crashers!
Many generations ago, there were so many different believers in various messiahs that one has to wonder how come Christianity and Islam and Hinduism were selected for successful propagation over their many competitors.
One only has to read about the hundreds of years of them brutally massacring each other and their rational bystanders to realize the answer is obvious:
They were the most bloodthirsty.
IngoB@1396,
You, like Roger Scruton, are a pompous ass. If he is your idea of a rational person, I am saddened, but not surprised.
So, Jesus was a Jew, lived as a Jew, and died as a Jew. And the catholics have gone batshit crazy over a cracker that represents a Jew. Oh the irony!
“You deserve to die for this. You are lucky that Catholicism, unlike Islam, is not a violent religion. Nonetheless, watch your back.”
“” Posted by: Inquisitor | July 24, 2008 7:50 PM “”
See? NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!
Catholicism isn’t a violent religion? Since when? Sheesh, read a history book!
“You must be very hurt and angry but lucky for us Our Lord is all good and mercy.”
All good and mercy: Hell. Eternal torture for offending the good and merciful, a being who orders murder and genocide.
Wow, if you thing a being like that is good and mercy, stay the fuck away from me.
IngoB (#1396) wrote: “God is infinitely just but merciful, and so no more than [Myers’] sincere repentance at any time during his future life will be needed to ultimately erase this event out of history for him and God.”
Surely that applies to PZ’s desecration of the Qur’an!
No?
Jesus pour your precious blood upon all those involved Amen!
What is it with you death fetishists?
melior @ #1304,
I said that!
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/priorities_1.php#comment-1003849
Thanks! Since my search turns up no other hits, I’m happy to claim all of the credit (I’m big on credit), but in lieu of that I’d be perfectly satisfied with one of the spare copies of TGD.
“It’s rather the kind of madness that appears in ripping the drawing of a three-year-old from his parent’s fridge, and tearing it to shreds because it’s “just not art” according to some sophisticated aesthetic standard. The madness lies in the destruction of what another person finds personally and emotionally meaningful, and indeed beautiful, not in the “objective” judgment that the drawing is so ugly it needs destroying.”
So basically, the Catholics in this case are akin to emotional fragile children. What an astonishing admission!
All books are sacred to me. I even get pissed off when I see people writing in them! Still, whatever pops your lock.
Inquisitor probably hasn’t seen “Passion of the Christ” Either.
Probably the most violent film of all time, and they loved it!
He did. Simply click on the photo to see the image at full resolution (3008x2000px; 390KB).
(Ingo B) #1396: The difference is thatntearing up a 3-year-old’s drawing does no social good and arguably social harm: if everyone had to produce great art on their first try or else be mocked and thus discouraged from being imaginative, we’d probably have worse art and a worse life. Not to mention that a 3-year-old can’t be expected to be mature in such situations. I guess what you’re saying is that the faithful have the same maturity level as a 3-year-old? Because as I see it, religious belief (not per se, but the way that it is frequently practiced by Christians in America as well as Muslims in the Middle East) does harm to society and the practicioners are not 3-year-old children, even if they are at that level maturity-wise.
Vhat’s you’re problem vith that, you bigot?
Everyone knows that the blood is the life. It even says so in the Bible.
Is it my fault if I vant just a leetle more life?
And besides, it is all good. I am a Christian, after all. And I do not drink… vine.
Judging an entire organization based on its bad apples is incredibly poor. The Catholics have the unique ability to produce saints, which many seem to have forgotten. Were Mother Theresa, Padre Pio, and Cardinal Neumann all just confused cracker worshippers?
Say whatever you like, the outstnding contributions of these individuals to humanity stand for themselves.
We’re judging the Church not on its reliable produce of pedophiles, that can happen when nobody’s looking. When that Church has had an official system of not looking and covering up the actions of bad apples by mixing them into a basket elsewhere to contaminate other apples, and apologizes and recompensates only after a customer complains without making any effort to consequentially weed out the bad apples and making sure their practices don’t encourage more bad apples to enter clean baskets, that’s where we become a tad bit judgmental.
How is producing saints evidence of being a helpful organization? Anyone can declare any number of people saints based on his own standards. Rational people become suspicious when a group declares that miracles are evidence of sainthood, and declares miracles on its own terms, without allowing external independant testing. Miracles are a primitive superstition based on having no explanation for anecdotal events and untested claims. Sainthood is a superstition based on a superstition.
Yes they were confused cracker worshippers. You know the old saying about the broken clocks. You might research how much money Teresa racked in, and how little of that was actually spent on alleviating poverty and helping the sick. She preferred to use the money to finance a worldwide organization equipped luxuriously to improve indoctrination efforts. She also had a perverse fascination with suffering, going so far that she believed suffering was better than being healed quickly or dying painless and in a clean environment.
You know I just had a weird notion, although I doubt I’m the first one to have it.
Would a priest lament the loss of his favorite digital Bible after a hard drive crash as much as his dead tree version being destroyed?
Would the various theists be offended if I send electronic copies of their respective holy books to the Rubbish Bin? To address a previous concern, the books can be in any and all languages (Aramaic, Greek, Arabic, English, Latin, Pig Latin, etc.
the photo is a fake. your “fearless” leader is a coward.
Re: the Qur’an and The God Delusion….RECYCLE THE FUCKING PAPER PRODUCTS!!!!!!
C’mon now.
Will someone pass the bong?
Agnus Dei, qui tolis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.
May the God of Love have mercy on you.
The poor fellow wrote, and I quote:
“I know. It’s so funny. You get humans when they’re young; you tell them, with a deeply solemn voice, and a straight face, the silliest thing imaginable; you keep telling them the silly thing day in and day out, year after year — and when they get a little older, they will scream with outrage if someone acts as though the silly thing isn’t true.”
yeah, like everything that is — came from nothing at all
And you are a screeching lunatic and sockpuppet.
{{blockquote}}what a weak attempt. thanks for giving me further reason to convert to Catholicism.
and by the way, nice job with the photoshop. you get your kid to do that? pathetic. but what would you expect from a professor that’s teaching at what is essentially a community college.{{/blockquote}}
You may need new glasses, some new reasoning skills, and a new brain for good measure.
Julie,
Catholics do not believe that God is harmed by the desecration.
Jennie,
Okay, I should be more precise. There may be some Catholics that do claim to able to tell the difference between consecrated and unconsecrated hosts (and that claim can be tested in the manner that you describe), but such a claim isn’t one that most Catholics would make, nor is such an ability required for Myers’s insults to hit home. The host need not be consecrated for his act to be deeply offensive, since he has claimed that it is.
[blockquote]what a weak attempt. thanks for giving me further reason to convert to Catholicism.
and by the way, nice job with the photoshop. you get your kid to do that? pathetic. but what would you expect from a professor that’s teaching at what is essentially a community college.[/blockquote]
You may need new glasses, some new reasoning skills, and a new brain for good measure.
Then you have no reason to be here, or to be angry. So run along, now. Shoo!
ChristOCrackers – It’s all a perfect body needs for perfection.
…
..
.
So, Chris, the god of mercy is the one that required the murder of an innocent human being for your evil, right?
You haven’t bothered to read the posts have you? I can’t recall all the post numbers in which we’ve addressed your type of remark, but here’s one of mine…go read post #577
Before you post again, at least read some of the comments. Any bullshit you’re going to spout has already been spouted and subsequently shredded.
If you REALLY want to see people upset, try desecrating a symbol of [insert popular sports team here]. You think Muslims and Catholics have short tempers? Try football hooligans.
Sadly, they do not carry brains small enough to fit in his thick skull.
the photo is a fake.
Then you have no reason to be here, or to be angry. So run along, now. Shoo!
who’s angry? not me. the “professor” is nothing but talk. but the sheep seem to follow his every word.
Ever notice how post September 11, the first thing an offended Christian says is, “Why don’t you pick on my crazy brother, Islam? He’ll kick your ass.”
You know what I mean?
#1404
You seem to have left out a key word — ‘objective’ — that proceeded those three — either on purpose or I guess you missed the entire point of the J man’s post? Again, the keyword is ‘objective’ as applied to goodness, truth and beauty. With that word restored, I think J-man is correct – do not atheists deny objectivity in these matters, but only claim subjectivity for them?
Please allow me to formally submit my vote for SC for this month’s Order of The Molly for this one.
come on PZ, is this the best you can come up with? a photoshop picture. LMAO!
nothing but talk? about what?
he threw away some crackers he received in the mail.
Is there some bigger thing he’s supposed to do, something more than throw unwanted and worthless objects in the trash?
OK, seriously John, We assume you’re not outraged because you arent’t acting like you are outraged. Here’s what the Catholic church can do to “continue to work to blah-blah”:
1. Immediately turn over all records and start cooperating with the police 100%
2. Stop hiding behind the confessional as a means of not cooperating.
3. Stop making excuses.
4. Parishioners stop donating money to the church until it takes steps 1, 2, and 3. Would you give money to a drug addict? Let them sell some “priceless” paintings and sculptures.
I call nonsense on “working toward” and such. If a priest, a nun, a bishop or a parishioner knows a priest who exploited a vulnerable person sexually, he picks up the telephone and calls the cops. Now. And testifies in court to put the bugger in PRISON.
This is not a new problem. The church has had centuries to solve it.
“I think society in general was a little rough in the middle ages–not just the Catholic Church. I think people have gotten much more civilized over the centuries. Most of us have, anyway. You’re obviously still a brutish, uncivilized, dumb ass.” -Sandi
Ha ha. That’s great. You go from saying how people, in general, have grown up and become more civilized (presumably you include yourself in that category) and then you proceed to call him a dumb ass?
Wouldn’t the civilized thing be to respectfully disagree while explaining what you believe and why without resorting to name calling?
Perhaps you need to take your own words a little more to heart before posting.
I find you spiteful and arrogant.
beautifully written, PZ – just beautiful.
decrepitoldfool,
until Cardinal Law is in prison and not his comfy parish in Rome, we’ll know the RCC isn’t serious about the sex abuse cover-up.
Ain’t gonna happen, either.
Samantha posted
“I find you spiteful and arrogant.”
Who?
Oh Sandi’s back again, yay! Man, you’re a frigging idiot, Sandi.
But you know, I really do feel sorry for you. You just have no idea how much you’re missing out on in life.
Huzzah, I love the rusty nail. It’s interesting, though, that Christ’s body doesn’t bleed when pierced…
Looking forward to a deluge of desecrations, I am.
I’m in U’re church peeing in U’re holy water.
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John Lewandowski! Nice to see you again. Too bad it has to be under these sad circumstances. Come back to Jill’s blog. We need you bro. God love you old friend.
I belong to AA (australian atheist)! All praise to you PZ and your fellow sceptics.
It’s amazing how Meyers knows these desecrations reported in history did not (could not!) take place —and then he desecrates himself…to prove his point!?!?
Is that the kind of logic they teach at UM?
Well done PZ. As for those pages from The God Delusion, I defer to post #954.
a pointless, evil act…
I’m puzzled. Where are all the fatwa-enviers from earlier threads, who dared PZ to desecrate a Qu’ran, and sneered that he would not dare? Why have they not been back to recant their proven falsehoods?
The good professor says: “Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything. God is not great, Jesus is not your lord, you are not disciples of any charismatic prophet. You are all human beings who must make your way through your life by thinking and learning, and you have the job of advancing humanity’s knowledge by winnowing out the errors of past generations and finding deeper understanding of reality.”
Which really demonstrates his confusion. Remember, on the good professor’s understanding, we don’t have a purpose, so why is the good professor assigning us the job of “advancing humanity’s knowledge”? Because he’s a fool who can’t think clearly. A sad little confused man who is too scared to believe what he says he believes. Nothing is sacred, dear professor, even your little bromides. Not even your life. Nothing about you and your precious theories. Nothing is sacred.
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#1404
I as referring to j-man’s post #700 – his first mention of goodness, truth and beauty, where he tied it into ‘objective’.
Subjective truth is hte same as no truth; ironically it was Pilate who asked Jesus (Who is Truth), ‘What is truth?’ and he authorized the nails being placed into Jesus – His crucifixion. You are admitting to standing alongside Pilate, a name that has become despised and cursed throughout history.
You say you believe life is sacred – do you believe in abortion, one wonders?
CR for the win! If a priest blessed your dough-filled head CR, would it become the body and blood of Christ?
@IngoB #1396
Predictably, you missed the whole point. For one thing, your analogy is false. It is not as if he destroyed a three year old’s drawing… it’s as if he destroyed a photocopy of *some* drawing that other people said *represented* the three year olds drawing. The distinction is hardly semantic.
And for another, the whole point of this is not the act itself, but YOUR ridiculous reactions to it. The act itself doesn’t mean squat. This entire exercise only serves to demonstrate, time and again, that no matter how hard you try, you are bound by irrational laws set down by crazy ass people hundreds of years ago.
Doug S @ #1450
I have a game ball autographed by the entire roster of Team Arsenal.
Convert, or the stitches go the the bitches, and the leather flies like a feather!
Bravo PZ! We live in a world populated by idiots…
John Lewdanowski/whatever other names you’re using, did you ever answer my question? If you did, I cannot find it. Please, tell me which post it’s in or answer it now.
If you forgot the question, or just don’t want to answer it, here it is again.
What do you think is the proper punishment for a pedophile?
BobSmith (and others):
Atheists lack a belief in god(s). That’s it.
Any position on the objectivity of value (including but not limited to aesthetic and ethical values) is up to the individual atheist. Atheism is a constraint on the kind of explanations atheists can give for things like the objectivity of value — i.e., they cannot involve god(s) — nothing more.
[quote]A sad little confused man who is too scared to believe what he says he believes.[/quote]
exactly. the “professor” is a coward. I’ve said it all along.
Can this shit go away and we can get back to some real interesting content on this site and not a bunch of crap about a cracker?
YAWN!
Great. Here’s comes the vandalism. And we’re the juvenile ones.
I do feel that you should have trashed more religious texts than just the Koran in that wastebasket, if only because hundreds of thousands of Muslims have been slaughtered in recent years by the US military, with no end in sight. It wouldn’t have been as bad if you had also included pages from the Bible and the Torah. Somehow, including a page from The God Delusion doesn’t offset insulting a group of people who are the current targets of mass slaughter. Plus, it seems kinda like you’re giving in a bit to the rabidly anti-Muslim Christians who’ve been harassing you. I say all of this as an atheist who despises all Abrahamic religions but is still moved by the reality of present persecutions.
Posted by: decrepitoldfool | July 24, 2008 9:18 PM
Exactly. The point is that it would require very little actual “work” for the Catholic Church to remedy such a situation, because they have a level of control over their organization that many other organizations do not enjoy. They have a leader that is purported to be infallible on moral issues, and as such can make unilateral decisions determining how the organization that answers to him would handle such a transgression.
The only “work” that the Pope would have to do to handle this situation would be to enact a papal bull stating that any priest found to be molesting children will be stripped of their status, removed from their position, and excommunicated from the Church. If such a decree were issued, then you would have a situation in which the Church has “worked” sufficiently to solve the problem.
Dave @ 1472
a pointless, evil act…
I agree completely. Threatening the lives of real human beings over superstition is pretty depraved.
Bravo PZ! Great post, stirring and eloquent.
I’m sorry your email is being rendered useless by the haters, things will cool down with some time. Been reading your blog for a few years now, keep up the good work!
deang, Do you even know why PZ decided to throw in a Koran?
I have no idea whether the photo is faked. I don’t really care. I’m just enjoying the theater. But for the purposes of PZ’s stunt it’s practically irrelevant. Part of the point is there’s no way to tell whether the cracker is consecrated.
Assuming for the sake of argument that the photo is a fake, how does that bespeak cowardice? It’s the same shit-storm coming down on him, fake or not, isn’t it? If faking it risks the same consequences as doing it for real, what is the difference in the level of courage required?
In a sense, fake host desecration is the only kind possible, since fake hosts are the only kind that actually exist. However, since fake desecration reaps the same whirlwind, so to speak, what exactly would be PZ’s motivation?
One would think a defe… depre… A god issue would be national news. I mean thunder, plague or something. It is only an opportunity to whine for this clan of clowns.
Am I the only one who finds it funny that Ed can’t even spam the right way? I’m now convinced that Ed can’t be older than 13.
OMG! Then it’s really true?
God Is Bread?
Gee, trashing Catholics and desecrating what they consider to be holy was such fun! What shall we do next? I know, let’s wear white hoods, burn crosses on our front lawns, and yell “I hate Niggers!” to every black person we see. Better yet, let’s wear swastika tee-shirts emblazoned with the words, “The holocaust was a fake!” Boy, do I love being an intolerant hate-filled bigot. And it’s great to have Professor Myers and you folks as my compadres in arms. The world would be a much better place if people like us ruled it, right? Morons. I wonder what Myers will do when his sorry bigoted ass gets canned? The KKK is always looking for a few good men.
Thomas@1474,
Your understanding of Myers’ understanding is deficient. He understands, as do most regular commenters here, that we must and do choose our own purposes, individually and collectively; we must decide between us by free and rational debate what is right, because there are no tablets of stone. Your kind of attack, the claim that atheists must live meaningless, purposeless lives, simply has no purchase on us, because we know from our own lives that it is quite untrue. So, Thomas, who are you trying to convince?
You know I just had a weird notion, although I doubt I’m the first one to have it.
Would a priest lament the loss of his favorite digital Bible after a hard drive crash as much as his dead tree version being destroyed?
Would the various theists be offended if I send electronic copies of their respective holy books to the Rubbish Bin? To address a previous concern, the books can be in any and all languages (Aramaic, Greek, Arabic, English, Latin, Pig Latin, etc.)
Posted by: Sandi | July 24, 2008 9:36 PM
blah blah blah blah blah
Sandi, what do you propose PZ does with junk mail? That’s all this is, crap that was sent to him.
Sandi, you go suck on a lemon too. Just like Ed and his morphs. Unless you are Ed.