Café Philos has a very good summary of the John Freshwater affair — he’s the bad science teacher who thought the captive audience in his classroom was a fine target for proselytization for his cult. He’s also the lunatic who burned a cross into a student’s arm.
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
Oh great. He gets fired there. I’ll bet he turns up in Mollah to teach the little faith healers.
Halleluyah! God is great!
I’m glad that something is being done about that teacher (using the term loosely). I really don’t understand how people can still try to do such things today, knowing how the courts have ruled about preaching religion in the classroom. Beyond that, the whole burning a cross into a kid’s arm is beyond creepy. I don’t think I will ever understand christians.
Why is the son of a bitch not being brought up on assault charges?
Christians don’t even burn crosses on children in private schools. If this was a common practice, would be all over the media including this blog…So Mr Freshwater would not be allowed to burn crosses on a child’s arm in religious schools either.
The sad part is, the guy will probably get hired by some fundamentalist Christian school or college, where he will be greeted as a hero.
Or maybe a fellowship at the Discovery Institute…
I never heard of this guy, but…
to burn a cross onto a students arm…
that’s insane! I mean, not normal insane,… this guy is fucking nuts!!!
I’m glad that I’m from Europe, because here this guy would have no chance of getting away in any sense. But in America it seems more okay (not okay, but a bit more okay) if you do such things in the name if faith (especially the christian faith).
What if he would have burn “KKK” onto a students arm?
Unfortunately, Freshwater will become one more example of how Christians are being persecuted. The atheistic, liberal, ACLU-loving evilitionists are crucifying a poor, down-trodden, humble fundamentalist who was merely trying to teach children about truth and Jesus.
I’m sure the FREEP, World News Daily, and conservapedia are milking this for all they can.
I’m from ohio and am appalled. The funny thing is that this town is also home to a famous liberal arts college. Therein lies the dichotomy of ohio. We have these crazy bible thumping thugs, and then pockets of the extremely educated. Unfortunately the extremely educated seem to leave ohio once they graduate.
I don’t get why this is even an issue, or why it’s even necessary to mention the proselytizing thing…he burned a student deliberately? Fire him! Hell, there was a story year or so ago of a teacher using a school computer infected with spyware that popped up a bunch of porn images and she was immediately jailed I think and sentenced to 40 years in jail (I think that was overturned on appeal though). So what if he’d burned something else in the kid’s arm? If it was a pentagram, I’m sure he’d have been hauled off long ago. Even an accidental burning would have resulted in discipline. The guy’s a whackaloon for sure, but he assaulted a student.
@jojo
I wish someone would tell me what is so humble about believing that the most powerful being in the universe thinks you’re special. It just makes me laugh everytime I hear Christians referred to as “humble”.
It’s been so long since I heard anything about this case, it’s nice to hear they’re finally tossing this guy.
My thought the entire time has been:
“What if my kid was in this class?”
The fact that it’s taken them so long to get anything done disappoints me, but the fact that they seem to be getting this wrapped up the way they should leaves me optimistic.
@ Jojo
Freshwater is such a serious nut, and given that he has assaulted students in the whole cross burning thing, I don’t think that they’ll go quite as far in defending him. He’s not exactly a puppy dog figure here, and so he doesn’t make for the best martyr.
They may make an off hand reference, but they won’t go into the specifics of his case, because the student assault charge is really he core of it. It’s not an act of religious persecution, it’s an act of protecting the students, and I think that moderate Christians (the ones smart enough to use the internet) will see it that way.
Dutch Delight:
Thanks for your post. You reminded me of the comment that God is an omnipotent, omniscient being with a deep interest in everyone’s sex life.
Multiple students arms. As in more than one. This fucker had deliberately caused physical pain to more than one student and was allowed to keep his job. More people than him deserve to be fired. There was a failure from the top of that school district down, and the kid’s parents are right in suing the hell out of Freshwater and the district.
Funny thing in the Dispatch, though. There was a group of religidiots that gathered in the parking lot as the school board decided his fate. They prayed for god to make the school board make ‘the right decision’. It looks like they did. Finally.
As an Ohioan as well, I am deeply disturbed to be from even the same planet as these people, let alone within a hundred miles of them.
Other choice tidbits:
His attorney said that Freshwater is the victim here, being denied his Constitutional rights.
His douchebag lawyer said that the complaints were “fabrications created by a couple of students” and “not a single child has ever been harmed”.
This jackass needs to rot in prison for child abuse, as well as interfering with the Constitutional rights of the students in his charge.
Posted by: JStein | June 22, 2008 1:02 PM
If they wrapped it up the way they should have, he would be in jail and the entire school board would be facing trial for letting this proselytizing prick continue harming children because they disagreed with his beliefs. Forget the religious overtones. He physically harmed children in his classroom. More than one. AND THEY LET HIM CONTINUE!
If that is not criminal, then I should be allowed to burn a nice A into their foreheads. For either atheist or assholes. I’ll let you decide.
What has me utterly dumbfounded is why this guy isn’t in jail right now. He admitted burning a student, deliberately. That it’s clearly a cross rather than an ‘X’ as he claims is almost irrelevant.
Perhaps the fact that the religious thugs are allowed to roam free no matter what is why the educated people keep leaving, sarah.
I’d get the heck outta someplace that ignorant as soon as I possibly could, too, to live someplace civilized.
And in other news, Ohio now pulls into the lead regarding religious nuttery, with “Group pumped to pray for relief from gas prices“.
I don’t know. I think even those crazies have their limits. I mean, Freshwater burned a painful cross into a kid’s arm. I think if anyone tries to condone that sort of behavior and child abuse, they will prove themselves to be equally inhuman and despicable.
This isn’t “people are picking on him because he’s a Christian.” This is, “he’s an abusive monster who inflicts pain upon children in the name of Christianity.”
I still believe the son of a bitch should face the firing squad. It’s hard enough keeping children safe from other students in school these days, but for a teacher to willingly injure children in such a way as this is considerably worse.
If the Freepers want to encourage this behavior by supporting this violent lunatic, they’ll only make themselves look equally nutty.
This may be a rural district with retention issues. Not every college graduate wants to instruct rubes for 40 years. And, the kids are correct, the current high school curriculum is useless to field hands.
I spent years in a rural district. One teacher married 5 (or 6)of his students. Each lass was 15 when they wed. Most were pregnant. He remained because he had kin on the school board and very few literates chose to live in the area.
Given the quotes already provided by the people there and the parents of the burned kid practically getting on their knees to reassure everyone in town they weren’t atheists, I’d like to see the media follow-up on the social situation in that town following this verdict.
It wouldn’t surprise me at all if there were retaliations, given the moral deficiencies found among believers. Knowing that the big media will shy away from those stories and the victims being scared of more problems if they talk, i doubt we’ll ever know.
Everybody’s high-fiving each other because the Mt Vernon school board finally fired this nut case. Well, it took him burning crosses into some kid’s arm to do it. Even then, it was 6 months after the fact. And, it took a parent’s lawsuit to get the Mt Vernon school board to act. For the last upteen years this “teacher” has been using his science class as a brainwashing chamber for his religious beliefs. The school board knew about this, other teachers complained, but because the nut job kept a bible on his desk, the school board was afraid to take action. Even knowing that the branding occurred the school board didn’t act. The school board only fired him after a parent sued the district and the teacher. Remember to these religious fantatics, godliness is next to the pocketbook. Seems that no one deserves high praise for much of anything. Certainly not the school board. As for some kind of victory freedom clear headed thinking, I suggest that everyone need look elsewhere.
AlanWCan @ #10,
The details of that case are here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_Amero
She was treated terribly, and her case will drive others away from substitute teaching.
Funny thing is, it’s not a rural district. Mount Vernon is a decent sized town with a fairly liberal ‘liberal arts college’.
This is just a complete failure of the educational system, from the top down.
Belated and pathetic as it is, it is a small victory. This lackwit could have gone on teaching indefinitely, an dwho knows how many other dimbulbs like him are still teaching right now? Put them on notice, and let’s get more active in getting these cases attended to.
Mold, where the hell are you from?
Wow, just WOW!
It’s good to see he is finally getting canned, though his previous actions should have been enough to have had the firing happen years earlier it sounds like.
You can be as much of a nutball as you want in this country, so long as you are a Christian nutball.
The most depressing part of the story was seeing just how many years school administrators admitted they knew the guy was a problem but they hadn’t been able (or were unwilling) to get rid of him.
What always gets me in these cases, whether it is Freshwater or Dover to mention just two examples, is how egregiously these fundies lie, lie and lie again to try and cover their asses when they are finally discovered. Doesn’t their own rule book that must be lived by have something relevant to say about lying. From such numerous repeat examples it would appear that it is better to be an amoral atheist than a so called and usually self proclaimed ‘moral’ fundie.
It has almost come to the point that the answer to the question, ‘how do you know a fundie is lying’ is invariably ‘when their lips are moving’.
All you need to know about this Christo-fascist is that he’s being backed by a bunch of twits called “Minutemen United.” Any group that has the word Minutemen in its name is instantly suspect, and these cement-heads are no exception.
Yeah. Those Minutemen United are freakin’ scary. Gotta love their tagline:
I need to buy a gun, I think.
I’m thinking these minutemen people are blasphemers, surely JC doesn’t need their help to spread his truth and love. As an omnipotent god I’d be humiliated if mere mortals were doing my job for me.
Mr. Freshwater–we don’t do publicly funded madrassas here. At least not yet…
Freshwater is presumably a member of a teacher’s union. Might not be easy to entertain firing him until there’s a lot of public support.
Sigh… I’d love to say “good riddens” regarding this bastard and express my hope that he spends the rest of his worthless life begging for pocket change on street corners, but I’m sure that he’s going to find fame and fortune among his fellow Christards. He’ll be paraded around the Christian and conservative radio squawk shows, FOX News, and The 700 Club as a living martyr and example of the “persecution” of Christians by the secular, liberal, atheist, “god haters.” Don’t think for a second that this mother blanker doesn’t have a book in the works that chronicles his harrowing ordeal and tells “the truth” about how public education is run by “godless socialists.” He’ll get offers to teach from various religious schools, honorary degrees from accredited Christian diploma mills,” and probably make the right-wing lecture circuit where he can sing his song of woe to conservative college students, church groups, and deep-pocketed GOP contributors who will be inspired to “do something” to amend this great wrong.
They’ll ignore the evidence about Freshwater’s activities. In fact, they don’t think he did anything wrong at all. Teaching Creationism/ID, claiming that homosexuality is a sin as part of your lesson plan, prayer in school; these are things the Christian Right thinks good teachers (public and private) are supposed to be doing.
We haven’t heard the last of this cretin. The Christian Right will see to that.
Kenyon College (where I’m just finishing up) is actually in Gambier, a few miles over. The reaction at Kenyon to this whole insane affair (among students, at least) was one of mute resignation to the backwardness of Mt. Vernon and a renewed desire to leave the county/state as soon as possible.
So a tip from an unknown psychic and they call in the protective service but this guy visibly harms a kid and it takes a lawsuit to get the authorities to act. Ain’t religion grand.
A good lawyer should be able to get a couple of million out of this and not even have to open his briefcase.
I wish someone would tell me what is so humble about believing that the most powerful being in the universe thinks you’re special. (Dutch Delight @ #11)
I’ve noticed that too, the absolute conviction that they themselves are the absolute center of a Supreme Being’s universe, although initially in connection with something else: The efforts of the Discovery Institute and its minions to present ID as good science to people who wouldn’t know the difference.
Now, you’d think anyone would wonder why the DI is trying to convince them, instead of working on actual scientists. But they’re completely unamenable to this argument, because anyone who’s sufficiently self-centered as to believe that they themselves, and their relationship to a deity, are the sole and entire point of all existence probably isn’t even going to understand the question.
More disturbing than this religious nut is the support he gets from the community. Just imagine a society where religion once again had more power.
For a look back to when it did, see eg: Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie: Montaillou, Penguin, 1990, or more comprehensively: Karlheinz Deschner: Kriminalgeschichte des Christentums.
#36, it’s funny you should bring that story up. I told my father, an unabashed right-wing Catholic (i.e. he can make Mel Gibson and Bill Donahue look like Unitarians), for a laugh.
His response, entirely without irony: “This is what happens when you take God out of the schools. People who won’t believe in God will believe in anything.”
So… a teacher’s assistant buying into a charlatan is irrational, BUT an invisible tyrant who lives in the sky is perfectly acceptable?
Regarding Kenyon College being in Gambier . . .
Gambier is about 4 miles east of Mt. Vernon proper. However, the Mt. Vernon School District actually includes Gambier itself (and even extends even farther out).
Mt. Vernon seems to be, from what I’ve seen (and I’ve been there quite a few times, visiting their library, for instance), a typical Ohio town—nothing overtly crazy. Historical note: it also has a few of Johnny Appleseed’s original orchards.
sarah, it shounds like Florida.
and Jojo did a great job of being a conservative, I applaud his effort (seriously I laughed really hard).
This same guy said he was only burning x’s
So this guy is a science teacher, and he’s been teaching creationism for years? Does anyone know what his qualifications are? Just wondering if he has a degree in science or if he’s another of these science teachers with a degree in education and a minor in basketball or something.
Oh no, he retired. He was a beloved instructor and well-regarded by all his male students. The sports teams in particular idolized him.
He did try to ‘marry’ one of my multitude of cousins but another cousin, Special Forces, had a discussion.
Another problem with the school board’s behaviour is that they spent taxpayers’ money to hire some company (of private eyes?) to do the investigation of Freshwater. The investigation consisted of interviewing everyone involved – nothing beyond the capacity of the average school principal or an HR person.
I suspect the purpose of hiring the company was to justify their previous inaction. They can claim that they didn’t know the full extent of the problems until getting this “unbiased report”, but they did know they took immediate action.
We once had a somewhat similar case (minus the cross burning) here in Alberta. A popular teacher in a small town by the name of Eckville got away with teaching students that the Holocaust didn’t happen for about 10 years. The teacher (James Keegstra) was also the mayor, which may have made it harder to challenge him.
I think eventually some parents read their kids’ social studies notes and complained. Keegstra was tried and convicted under a rarely used law against “uttering hate propaganda.”
A good number of his former students not only supported Keegstra but also stated their belief in what he’d taught them. Somebody donated some money to send some of his students to Germany to see the concentration camps. They went; I’ve forgotten what they had to say when they came back.
Maybe Freshwater can get a job as a tour guide in Ken Ham’s creation theme park. He sounds eminently qualified.
#45: And maybe he can open up a little side business in the gift shop, offering to burn crosses into visitor’s skin for a nominal fee. Should be huge hit with the fundy clientele. Give ’em a little taste of what jebus suffered through.
@#45
Keegstra was also a Creationist (surprise surprise). He also told his students (he was a social studies teacher) that Evolution was false – must have made things difficult for the biology teacher.
If the parents of the child he burned with his little electrical crucifix toy were to beat the living crap out of him, and I were called up for jury duty, let’s just say that the prosecution would probably want to use one of their peremptory strikes to send me home.
-jcr
“Freshwater is presumably a member of a teacher’s union. Might not be easy to entertain firing him until there’s a lot of public support.”
It will be easy.. as Freshwater will be doing 3-to-5 for child abuse.
You can’t teach from prison.
@44
re: outside investigators, this is standard procedure. An outside investigation would presumably have no interest in the outcome of the findings; the school, however, would have a reason for not finding anything to be wrong. It is always a good idea to have outside investigators so that there is no “well, the school is just covering it up” excuse.
A felony conviction for assault on a student will take care of any interest a union might have in supporting Freshwater. However, I suspect that he won’t have much problem getting a job at the Washed In The Blood Of The Lamb Evangelical Christian Academy or some such place. He’ll probably be better qualified than many of the teachers at his new school. More’s the pity.
Question. Does anybody know WHY this guy was burning crosses
into his students arms?
/Question. Does anybody know WHY this guy was burning crosses
into his students arms?/
Because the KKK has the monopoly on wooden crosses?
I find the fact that the burned cross into the students skin healed after three weeks. At least that’s what I read in a newspaper article.
Any one else find it ironic that the human body naturally fights off the symbol of the Christian God on it? (tongue in cheek)
RE #18
Does anyone else find this just a bit ironic? The so-called ‘activists’ also say:
Not exactly my idea of being an activist, which generally implies, you know, some sort of action…
(Sorry for the long rant…) Here’s the Minutemen United “Who We Are” page.
First off, it’s dripping with militant Christianity. They have a logo that’s a guy with a gun (a Minuteman, of course) looking on as the three crosses of Calvary loom over his shoulder (odd how that casts the Minuteman in a decidedly Roman-soldier-esque light.) They make numerous references to “battles” (such as “The Minutemen are a pro-active network of believers ready at a moment’s notice to do battle for the cause of Christ”) and paint their mission in war-like terms, with those who they disagree with as military adversaries (such as “America once again needs those who can be ready in a ‘minute’ to wage war against a culture of God-haters.”)
This, if course, is not unusual. The militant talk comes right out of the Bible and is part of mainstream Christian rhetoric (“spiritual warfare”, “onward Christian soldiers”, Salvation Army, the “full armor of God”, etc.) What’s a bit sketchy is where they explicitly state that this is all metaphor and that they are really non-violent. Somehow it doesn’t make me feel all that more comfortable about them:
The very fact that they need this sort of disclaimer suggest that they’ve encountered fellow travelers who want to take the metaphors literally. I’ve never seen any need for anything like that on the sites of secular advocates.
I recall a while back when P.Z. used some sort of language like “kick their butts” or something of similar tone referring to opposing Creationists or Christians or whatever group it was (I’m sure someone will provide a link), and the Dembski brigade pounced on it as proof that the evil Darwinists/Atheists are violent (due of course to the teachings of Darwin/lack of Jesus in their hearts). Yet we constantly hear militant language from Christians, and not just fringe groups. It’s all very well and good for them to say “but we don’t literally mean it,” but when there are people who are totally immersed in a culture where everything is described in militaristic terms, where every day they go out to do “spiritual battle” in the “culture war”, I can’t help but wonder if this doesn’t have an adverse effect on them.
It’s well known that in these church/state issues that it’s not exactly uncommon for death threats to be made against those who complain about the actions of Christians. The threats against Judge Jones come to mind, and that one 2006 case where a Jewish family in Delaware was practically run out of town for opposing school prayer. While the Christians who start these conflicts by imposing their religion through government (and who invariably are the sort of Christians who engage in militant rhetoric) can say “It’s not us! We disclaim those people!” (or perhaps “Am I my brother’s keeper?”), at some point they have to realize that they’re not exactly helping the situation (unless violence is what they truly want.)
With the Freshwater incident, some of the apologists are asking why, if the cross burned into the student’s arm was so bad, that it wasn’t reported earlier. Well, the parents who reported it after Freshwater was already in the news said they feared their son would be harassed. Given the reaction thus far, and the teacher’s association with groups like Minutemen United, I think their fears were warranted, especially if they had stuck their necks out alone.
Also, a bit of annoying irony on the M.U. page, one of their reports on Freshwater is titled “Winning thru intimidation”, where they complain that they are being intimidated. After all, how can you not be intimidated when the ACLU has a disclaimer on its site about how any anti-Christian assassins carrying an ACLU card aren’t really members… they do have that, don’t they?
If they’re truly ‘soldiers of god’ then we can defeat them with iron chariots…
@ 56:
“God-given”? The constitution was the result of human creativity and hard work – it wasn’t handed down on tablets of stone. If it were God-given, wouldn’t it have more God in it?
PZ, I think there might be some mischief going on in the comments on my Freshwater post — the post you linked to above. Late yesterday, a commentator showed up going by the name of “Atheist”. Yet, it turns out this guy smells of deception. He’s been spouting talking points that could come straight from the Discovery Institute. Stuff like, “let’s teach the controversy.” So, while he’s pretending to be an atheist and on “our side”, so to speak, he’s actually laying out the case for the “other side” — the Freshwater side — in this controversy.
I bring all this up because I’m getting vibes from this “Atheist” guy that he’s much more than an amateur at this game. Perhaps I’m just being paranoid here, but I smell in this “Atheist” some kind of professional or near professional public relations person. Some kind of hired hand.
So I’m wondering if that’s at all possible. Have you ever had cause to believe that, say, the Discovery Institute has ever pulled a trick like this before? I know for certain that this sort of dirty trick is played in politics these days, but I am ignorant of whether or not it’s also being played in the creationism/evolution debate. Any ideas?
I just revisited the Cafe Philos link and noticed that in that picture of Freshwater giving his speech, those people in the cross hats (officially available here) are representing Minutemen United… well, they are “wearing Minutemen United attire” at least. We won’t know if they are actual Minutemen United representatives unless they engage in acts of violence, at which point we can determine that they are impostures.
That certainly puts me at ease.
Wait, doesn’t our vast “big science” conspiracy keep nut jobs like this out of the classroom?
Here’s some more on Minutemen United. Last year they were disrupting the services of a church for not being anti-homosexual. Apparently their leader, Dave Daubenmire, is “homo-nauseous.” (And likes adding “homo-” to lots of nouns. My favorite: “TV and films are awash with homo-stars.”)
Apparently their leader, Dave Daubenmire, is “homo-nauseous.”
And he’s obviously a fine specimen of the species homo religiostupidensis.
“Homo-nauseous”? Shouldn’t that mean that anything that is similar to him, in some unspecified way, makes him sick? Well, I could certainly understand that!
Nick: keep your homo-logic to your homo-self!
Oh yeah, more from Daubenmire: “I’m on a manhunt” He wants men, lots of men! Men, men, men! Christian men out in the streets. Manly men, preferably in black robes.
I’m looking for some manly pastors.
If he’s willing to visit the UK, he should try Gaydar! Apparently, no matter how specialised your requirements, that’s the place to go.
Oh yeah, more from Daubenmire: “I’m on a manhunt” He wants men, lots of men! Men, men, men! Christian men out in the streets. Manly men, preferably in black robes.
Maybe he should go here.
Great. Now I’m going to have this stuck in my head all day:
Thanks so much.
After looking at the picture of the child’s arm why was this guy not arrested for Assault and or Battery?? If my son came home with marks like that on his arm I would call the police and demand the person responsible be arrested.
I wrote Pam Schehl, the author of the Mount Vernon News story about this, and asked if she would do followups regarding the abuse issues.
She replied that Child Services was contacted, but they could not discuss anything because of Confidentiality laws. So I guess it’s just wait and see if anything develops.
Freshwater can, no doubt, find future employment opportunities with Ken Ham.
To their credit, even most of the loons at RaptureReady are unwilling to back Freshwater up because of the arm burning routine.
Now, I was willing to consider that Freshwater was at least doing something relatively safe and short term, if good for an instant firing, with the cross-branding business, until I read the investigation report which included the facts that the electrostatic generating machine (or whatever its called) is something like 22 years old, he had no manual for it and had never bothered to look at the online manual the company makes available.
So, burning kids with an old machine that’s been kicking around the school, is in who knows what kind of repair, and plugs into a wall-socket? Oh yeah, that’s safe.
The man’s a grinning goddidiot with no concern for his students safety.
Being a former Mt. Vernon
inmateresident, I can assure you that any one of a number of “Christian” private schools based on the “Bible” (wherever it’s convenient to quote passages in order to force racist, discriminatory authoritary dogma on obedience students and their mamas) in the area won’t hesitate to place the monster on its staff.Sorry, the bit about “branding” is bullshit. The device is harmless.
The single kid’s parents who complained did so months later, saying their kid had pain the first night. But none of the other parents had a problem. Multiple kids volunteered for fun, after Freshwater demonstrated on himself. There were no welts but a marking that went away in a few weeks, not months. Finally, Freshwater did the demo every year (both himself and kid volunteers) for a long time and nobody objected. The school had to have known about it for years as well. Lack of objection indicates consent.
What’s going on is that the school board needed to find something to beef up its excuses to fire him. The reason it wanted to fire him was his being a pain in the neck because he kept mentioning creationism in the classroom – although they had no complaints in his dossier, indicating if they told him to stop, it was only verbally.
I have no religious belief but think the religious should be tolerated. The board should have negotiated with this guy (over creationism), a 21-year teacher, rather than firing him.
Here’s a document from the outside HR firm hired by the school board. I think it biased, but it’s a start.
http://www.newarkadvocate.com/assets/pdf/BF111077620.PDF
http://www.dispatch.com/wwwexportcontent/sites/dispatch/local_news/stories/2008/06/19/Freshwater.pdf
The Tesla complaint is entirely bogus. Science teachers used to do that often decades ago. BFD.
The guy’s being railroaded because he’s a religious nutter. The board should have the honesty to say so and keep exaggerated “branding” accusations out of it.
Sunstone, please cut out the unsubstantiated defamation. I have never heard of the Discovery Institute before looking at Freshwater articles and blogs the past day. You may have been the first to mention it.
Nor do I have much interest in it. I think creationism a myth. But so may be multiculturalism and liberalism and conservatvism and lots of beliefs, and the religious have a right to live. Crucifying (pun intended) a 21-year teacher for his quirks is idiotic.
We have to get along, and both the school board and the teacher should have found a compromise long before it got to the firing and lawsuit stage.
Oh, and if you cannot refute my arguments, then please pipe down rather than resorting to ad homs.
“…fundies lie, lie and lie again to try and cover their asses”
covering their rears is a fundamental part of their religion, that’s why they call them fundies! what is really odd is a fundie that doesn’t lie. If they didn’t lie, they couldn’t get enough donations to support their life styles. Liers for Jesus is their motto!
Watching the Freshwater case has made me realise secularists lie as much as fundies.
Athiest says “Watching the Freshwater case has made me realise secularists lie as much as fundies.”
see what I mean, fundies lie, this fundie is no athiest, that’a his first lie, watch for more!
Atheist:
Hi! Welcome to the Internet.
What does that have to do with a public school teacher promoting sectarian religious beliefs in a science classroom?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t Freshwater warned about his behavior a number of times prior to this current situation?
I think Mary Kay Letourneau tried that defense too. Freshwater is an adult and should have known better than to misuse electrical equipment on students. Just because he can get kids to consent doesn’t make things ok.
To (not a) Atheist:
You still need to read the actual findings. The incident with the branding was December 6 and the parents reported it the next day (page 9), not 6 months later. You’ve already been corrected on this once. Are you lying or do you have reason not to believe the report?
As I’ve stated on the other site-the report makes it clear that he hasn’t been doing his job. That’s it.
You knew it had to happen: Rapture Ready had to put their spin on it. Though, refreshingly, there are some who don’t like what Freshwater did to the kid.
I just noticed the reason that just the one kid, out of a half-dozen every year for decade(s), had pain the one night after the marking.
The parents said the area got irritated by the kid’s putting on (sports?) equipment right after the marking.
Well, if anyone’s uncomfortable with the Tesla coil demo, then drop it. It’s not essential. The teacher seems already to have agreed to drop the demo (even though it was permitted for decade(s)).
Argue the creationist/religious issue straightforwardly without making up bogus “branding” charges. That teaches the kids subterfuge, not honesty.
Worse, hyping up fake “branding” charges makes people suspicious about electricity. They’re already suspicious about nuclear magnetic resonance and nuclear power and any science they don’t understand. Why make it worse?
The teacher teaches religion. Debate that openly. But don’t penalise science or the device or a harmless science demo.
#79 JPF
Freshwater was never warned about the Tesla coil. He wasn’t warned because for 11 (21?) years of using it there were no complaints. There were no complaints because the device is harmless. The only reason the one kid in decades had discomfort the one night, was because (as his parents said) he put equipment on, right after the marking, right over it, which irritated the area.
If his religiosity is a problem, argue about that. But don’t make up bogus complaints.
LeTourneau is irrelevant. Different issue, different state, different laws.
#80 Autonomous
By accusing others of lying you just make yourself look bad. I read & posted the report various places over 24 hours ago. You just don’t know how to read carefully – neither the report, nor my coments.
The first problem with the timing of the parents’ complaint, is that it was to the school only, and was not so much about the demo as with feeling uncomfortable because taken by surprise.
The second problem about the parents’ complaint is that to have any validity for “branding” or “child abuse” purposes it needed a medical exam immediately, documented, then a complaint to police on the basis of the medicine. That’s standard procedure. The way it way done, and the timing, is improper procedure. Without the immediate police complaint, it’s weak legally.
Also, part of the complaint should have been (was it?) the fact that the kid’s discomfort came not from the marking but from putting equipment on over the marking. The parents admitted that later.
Finally, the problem of timing isn’t so much the parents’ as the school board’s. By dragging out the marking matter 4 months later, the board makes clear it’s just a subterfuge and their real reason for firing him is the religiosity.
They should be honest and argue the religiosity. Making up false charges (branding) is never a good thing to encourage. And it’s a lousy example for the students, teaching the dishonesty.
According to the (not fully true) legend, Lincoln argued like hell but was honest about it – “honest Abe”. The board should do the same – argue the religiosity, but don’t make up false branding accusations.
Fraudulent “Atheist” concern troll @ #83:
They’ve got fucking pictures, asshole. There’s photographic evidence, you worthless fraud. YOU’RE THE ONE WHO’S MAKING SHIT UP!
What is wrong with you that you feel compelled to defend a child abuser? Why are you so eager to pretend it never happened when there are pictures? Are you that desperate for a phony martyr?
Lack of objection indicates consent.
Not when children–or other “vulnerable” populations–are concerned. Children cannot give consent, they can only assent (and yes there is a difference). Now, I’m working from research IRB standards here, so there’s a bit of a difference. But, for crying out loud, learn what the fuck you are talking about.
Burning a student’s flesh is not an experiment. It’s a demonstration…now, of what is a completely different matter.
Lying trolls are so boring.
To Atheist at post #83:
In this post you said to me:
“By accusing others of lying you just make yourself look bad. I read & posted the report various places over 24 hours ago. You just don’t know how to read carefully – neither the report, nor my coments.”
In response to me saying this:
“The incident with the branding was December 6 and the parents reported it the next day (page 9), not 6 months later. You’ve already been corrected on this once. Are you lying or do you have reason not to believe the report?”
Which I said after you said:
“The single kid’s parents who complained did so months later, saying their kid had pain the first night.”
Which is a lie and HAS ALREADY BEEN POINTED OUT TO YOU SEVERAL TIMES. You’re a concern troll and you’re fooling no one. Go away.
Fraudulent “Atheist” concern troll @ #74:
As desperate as you are to create a fake martyr, that bullshit won’t work on people with brains. He was fired for four reasons. He abused children. He violated the law. He violated school policy. And he was incompetent at the job he was hired to do. Any one of these would be good cause for termination. But this bastard felt compelled to do all four, and then whine about “persecution” when he got called on it.
Fraudulent “Atheist” concern troll @ #75:
What compromise? The bastard was acting in clear violation of school policy and the law, he was totally incompetent to do the job he was hired for, and he abused children under his care. You can’t compromise with that. Where would you even start? Tell him he can burn one student a year, but no more? Require him to get a brain transplant?
This was a man who was both unwilling and unable to do his job, and who used that job as an excuse to abuse children. He’s lucky he only got fired. If it were a child of mine, there wouldn’t be enough of the bastard left to fire.
I was arguing about that. I wasn’t referring to the “branding” but to where you said “We have to get along, and both the school board and the teacher should have found a compromise long before it got to the firing and lawsuit stage.” which I assumed was in reference to the religious content of his teaching/classroom. Again, correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s my understanding he was warned about that and basically ignored it.
While a bit flip, it is not irrelevant. The relevancy was explained in the next two sentences: Just because a minor consents (or I guess “consents” per MAJeff above) to have something done to them doesn’t mean that an adult can just go ahead and do it. Freshwater, as a supposedly responsible adult, should have known that putting marks on students’ bodies with electricity, harmless or not, is something that some parents would have a problem with if they were made aware of it. That the scrutiny that he’s currently under because of his religious proselytizing led to parents (and the general public) being made aware of it is irrelevant to the reaction you’re seeing.
The parents filed a complaint with the school right after the incident. They went public after waiting several fruitless months for some kind of action. Far from falsely accusing Freshwater of anything, they bent over backwards to give the administration a chance to handle the complaint without undue publicity. The reasons for this should be obvious.
Addendum: “I assumed was in reference to the religious content of his teaching/classroom” — I assumed this because the idea of “compromising” on using an electrical device to burn crosses into underage students’ arms seems slightly absurd. The compromise I assumed you were talking about was re. keeping the personal bible on his desk but ditching the posters, ten commandments, creationism, etc.
By the way, since this is a science blog, shouldn’t we just
– fight the hysteria about the harmless electric device?
– make use of Freshwater’s good connection to the kids in other areas of science?
I wonder why the school didn’t just have him teach physics, chem, earth science, even bio except for the evo-crea part.
How hard could it have been to get a sub for the day or two evolution is on the agenda? And make Freshwater use his vacation days for those 2 days.
Whatever happened to common sense?
#88 #89
More hype. The demo and marking had been done for 11 (21?) years and everyone in the town must have known about it, and nobody had a problem with it for decades.
The one set of parents objecting seem bothered more by their not being asked or informed in advance, and by the pain their son had the first night – pain they admitted was due to irritating the area by placing “equipment” (I presume, sports equipment) over the area.
The solutions to that are not lawsuits but any of these: In the future:
1. make Freshwater have the kid volunteers ask their parents first
or
2. make Freshwater get permission slips
or
3. make Freshwater tell the kids not to put equipment over the marking for a day or two
or
4. don’t do the marking at all – just to simplify the world, not because it’s dangerous.
#90 By compromise I referred to everything. A compromise on the demo is to require parental permission. A compromise on the religiosity may be – as I suggested – getting a sub and making Freshwater take 2 vacation days for the evolution discussion.
Both sides are making this a mountain out of a molehill, behaving like little kids stamping their feet in stubbornness.
Here’s a student’s comment:
Good teachers are valuable. Everyone should have compromised. Now the town has lost a good, experienced teacher and probably gained a wrongful dismissal lawsuit (and expenses).
Everyone seems to be adhering to a rigid ideological position and adamantly rejecting common sense.
The minutemen appear to have arrived.
Fraudulent “Atheist” concern troll @ #91:
You threw it out the window when you started lying to defend a child abuser.
You refuse to address Freshwater’s flagrant violation of laws and policies. You refuse to address his demonstrated incompetence. You flee in terror from photographic evidence of the charges you claim are made up. You just whine and blame the victim in your desperation to defend this bastard. You’re not fooling anyone. You have no interest in compromise, you want this incompetent psychopath free to lie to and abuse children.
Reading down the comment list I see even more attempts to put the worst possible spin on the “burning of the students arm”, which wasn’t really burning at all, at least not in the sense that the media and various blogs would have. Something like that would be cool and I can imagine that I would like to see it demonstrated on my arm. C’mon, scientists aren’t whimps are they?
The whole point here is that Mr. Freshwater was against evolution, and favored creationism, which tends to make those of us who are opposed to such teaching angry. Let’s not spin it so far. This teacher sounded like a great teacher, he engaged the kids in his class, and I think with a little restraint, he might have been okay.
Once something like this takes hold in the media and blogs, it takes on a black and white life of it’s own which only really serves to illustrate the plethora of logical fallacies on both sides of the issue.
That’s my 2 cents.
Good teachers do not teach lies to their students.
I wonder why the school didn’t just have him teach physics, chem, earth science, even bio except for the evo-crea part. – pseudo-Atheist
What unutterable garbage. What purulent vomit. Creationism is utterly incompatible with “physics, chem, earth science”, as anyone with a passing acquaintance with it would know. How can you teach physics if you have to pretend radioactive dating doesn’t work and that light could travel from distant galaxies in a few thousand years? Chemistry if you believe that proteins would need to be “intelligently designed” to work? Earth science if you believe there was a global flood a few thousand years ago? As for biology, as Theodosius Dobzhansky said: “Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.”
That’s my 2 cents. – Rarus.vir
Maybe its just because I’m a Brit, and this is a US expression, but I always translate it as:
“OK, I can’t support what I just said with rational argument, but you’re not allowed to say it’s crap, because if you do, you’re threatening my freedom of speech”.
Nick Gotts-
I love reading PZ Myers on a daily basis; however I am less than enthusiastic about reading what the commenter’s have to say. I honestly see little difference between some that make supporting comments on this blog and those they demonize for holding different beliefs.
Honestly, I wish PZ would just turn off the comment section all together. It reads like a logical fallacy lesson; sweeping generalization, well poisoning, and just plain unhelpful nastiness.
Let Mr. Freshwater have his day in court, like the rest of us, but remember, this man is a countryman, no matter what his beliefs are, and he deserves to let facts speak out, not a bunch of Rah Rah haters blinded by their own form of dogmatism.
If we truly hold the high ground, (as I firmly believe we do), we should start to act like it.
Rarus.vir,
According to Physical Abuse Citation: Rev. Stat. §§ 2151.031; 2919.22 in the OHIO state code:
Abused child includes any child who:
* Is endangered as defined § 2919.22
* Exhibits evidence of any physical or mental injury or death, inflicted by other than accidental means, or is at variance with the history given of it
* Because of the acts of a parent, guardian, or custodian, suffers physical or mental injury that harms or threatens to harm the child’s health or welfare
* Is subjected to out-of-home care child abuse
Now I may be just an overreacting parent but I would say that a child that comes home with a noticeable welt/burn/whatever you call it would fall squarely into the realm of child abuse committed by the teacher.
Just for those who wish to check up below is the link where i got the child abuse statute info, NOTICE the .GOV tdl not some screwy .com or .net or .org.
http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/laws_policies/state/index.cfm?event=stateStatutes.processSearch
Let Mr. Freshwater have his day in court, like the rest of us, but remember, this man is a countryman – Rarus.vir
Not my countryman he isn’t, as you would have noticed if you had actually read my response to you. Not that that makes the slightest difference to the contempt in which I hold him for being a child-abuser, both by his physical acts, and by his propagandising.
I’m 50 years old. I remember in 6th grade being paddled in the hall by my home room teacher for failing to do my math homework. He had a 3 foot board about 3/4 inches thick with holes drilled in it. Hurt like hell, but my folks didn’t sue; they were more likely to kick my lazy butt even more now that they knew I blew off my homework. Somehow I just can’t get too excited about what Mr. Freshwater did, and I think it is ridiculous to make a big deal over it.
As far as having a bible on his desk goes, or even openly talking about it, the school officials need to handle this sort of thing without causing publicity. You and I have no involvement in this, and to express an opinion based on the plethora or reports out there, not to mention hateful commentary, is just as wrong as what Mr. Freshwater did.
rarus.vir @ #102:
Oh, what a brilliant argument. Because teachers were allowed to beat students fifty years ago, that makes anything a teacher does today okay. Go ahead, beat them, burn them, break their bones, murder them and stuff the corpse in the kid’s locker. It’s all okay.
After you got paddled, did you by any chance still have painful welts days or weeks later? The kid Freshwater burned did.
more rarus idiocy:
Apparently you’ve managed to miss the fact that he was lying to the students and breaking the law. I’m sure you’ve made a valiant effort to miss those facts, because you’re so desperate to turn this child abusing fraud into a fake martyr.
The only people making a big deal about him having a bible on his desk are creationist nutjobs who want to lie about the motivations for the firing to distract attention from what one of their own actually did. Nutjobs like, for example, YOU.
The fact is, the bastard burned students under his care, he used his government-funded classroom as a captive audience to promote his religion, he taught phony science in violation of school standards, and the phony science he taught was so incredibly flawed that he obviously doesn’t have the slightest fucking understanding of what he’s supposed to be teaching about in science class. He’s a liar, a criminal, a child abuser, he willfully ignored school policy, and he’s incompetent to perform the duties of his job. Any one of these facts would be grounds for firing. Freshwater is guilty of all of them.
Thread Summary:
All the evidence and arguments in favor of Mr. Freshwater’s dismissal are outweighed by the favorable opinion of a girl who was his student, for some fraction of a year, 14 years ago.
phantomreader42-
I think Mr. Freshwater should get what is coming to him; I simply cannot understand your obvious hatred of the man and those of his ilk.
You sir, are an ass.
I shall not waste anymore of my time with you.
My appologies to PZ. I usually stay out of the fan club and actually try to learn from you, however the courtesy of your hall has lessened of late.
#85
The school board’s consent, not the child’s. That means the board cannot reproach the teacher the demo, if it knew about it for years. It can only tell him it has changed policy and wants the particular demo to cease.
You’re so concerned with (1) proving your ideology right and (2) hating the religious like Freshwater, that you missed my obvious meaning.
Once more, a number of thir parties made references to the fact that he’s a good teacher who got the kids involved and engaged, except for his evolution-creation quirk.
I’ve had employees like that myself – good workers, competent producers, with a quirk or two.
Working around their quirks is the mature response. Firing them is the immature response and brings lawsuits.
School boards don’t consent either. they can provide approval. Maybe the problem is that you’re using language that isn’t appropriate to what you’re trying to say, in addition to just plain bullshitting.
Rarus.vir @ #105:
Goodbye, and good riddance.
Phony “Atheist” concern troll @ #106
Freshwater’s “quirks” included gross incompetence, dishonesty, rampant insubordination, criminal behavior, and child abuse. How do you propose that these things be “worked around”?
Let’s say you had an employee whose work was so bad that it took most of the day, every day, for someone else to fix it and make it usable, essentially redoing the whole damn thing. Would you consider such a person a “competent producer”? That’s what Freshwater did, he filled his students’ heads with so much bullshit that their next teachers had to spend extra time reteaching them the basics. This is not a “quirk”. This is gross incompetence and illegal religous indoctrination at government expense. This is grounds for termination even if the bastard wasn’t also in the habit of burning his students. But you refuse to see that, because you need your phony martyr. You need to distract attention from the facts of the case however you can.
#103
No, you’re missing a particuarly important point. There are no laws in the US forbidding a teacher from mentioning his religious beliefs, including creationism.
The case history thus far
* forbids school boards from requiring the study of creationism
* forbids school boards from prohibiting the study of evolution
* is silent on teacher indiscretions, particularly if he doesn’t make it a required part of the curriculum
* does allow school boards to enforce policy on teachers as a simple matter of employment.
So, by injecting creationism occasionally, the teacher broke no law. He may well, however, have been insubordinate to the school board, if the board has put enough in writing. I don’t think it did. It should have started, righgt now, putting policy in writing, then waited to fire him until it had formal written record of warnings to him about any infractions he committed.
Being scientific doesn’t mean being hysterical when the religious doubt science, and it doesn’t mean practicing bad employee management. It means working with reality, including people’s quirks and sometimes ambiguous law.
Rarus.vir and Atheist, it’s a shame Freshwater has been teaching for 21 years. Even if he had not been physically abusing children, he was mentally abusing children, and abusing his post as an authority figure in their lives. That may last longer, and I fear some of those children will have been set down a path of ignorance.
Having said that, simply because the man has been an awful person and teacher shouldn’t take our gaze away from the fact that he hurt children. As a teacher, he should have known to stear far, far away from anything that could in anyway be seen has abusive. He went in the entirely opposite direction, when parents trust their children to his care.