Bob the Angry Flower retells the story of the bald prophet, Elisha. Man, if I had the power to summon angry she-bears, I wouldn’t be siccing them on the children who made fun of my looks — I can think of much better targets for my wrath.
It’s an odd choice for Bob, though. I’d think he’d be much more concerned about Jesus and that fig tree.
. Man, if I had the power to summon angry she-bears, I wouldn’t be siccing them on the children who made fun of my looks — I can think of much better targets for my wrath.
Lackwitted parody trolls come to mind.
Now let’s see that in a bible illustrated children book.
Wait! I think I’ll do it!
I’ve wondered; why she bears. Does this mean that god has considered supporting the feminist movement, but gave it up?
doov
The venerable Bible scholar… what’s his name again? (Just a sec…)
Okay. the venerable Bible scholar Bert Thompson says “children” should read “young adults.” ( http://www.discoverymagazine.com/articles/d1999/d9911e.htm ) That makes it all better.
I went to Bert’s groovy website, and saw this:
We today should learn a lesson from this story as well. We should treat people with respect, and obey those whom God has placed in positions of authority (Ephesians 6:1-3; Romans 13:1-4). By doing this, we will show our love for the Lord (read John 14:15).
No wonder Bush thinks that he’s a king.
Mikespeir: I love this:
“…it is important to remember that God, not Elisha, used these bears to teach those young men an important lesson about respect and obedience. God is the One Who has power over the animal kingdom. He sent fiery serpents to bite the Israelites (Numbers 21:6); He sent a lion to slay a disobedient young prophet (1 Kings 13:24ff.); He prepared a great fish to swallow Jonah (Jonah 1:17); and He shut the lions’ mouths in order to protect Daniel (Daniel 6:22).
We today should learn a lesson from this story as well. We should treat people with respect, and obey those whom God has placed in positions of authority (Ephesians 6:1-3; Romans 13:1-4). By doing this, we will show our love for the Lord (read John 14:15).”
Yes, I bet they were a lot more respectful and obedient after this, being torn to pieces and all. It’s hard to be insolent when you’re dead.
And what a perfect message to send to children growing up in a fascist society like ours… um… wait…
Judas is ‘nice’ too.
(I initially thought this was an old one since Bob’s in my Saturday tabs because that otherwise a slow day.)
Let this be a lesson to all the children that are merely beaten by their parents in order to instill the fear of the big sky daddy in their disobedient skulls. Be grateful that it is not she-bears! They can survive most of the blows and broken bones.
If God really love us, he would give two angry she-bears to every bald man.
Don’t you read the comic books…….all bald men are evil.
Funny coincidence. I was just reading a big discussion of this very story over here:
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2007/10/go-up-thou-bald-head.html
Yep, that’s one of my favorite bible stories. It shows god for what he really is, an evil petty entity who abuses his power to avenge childish insults. And apparently god is bald too.
@#3: Maybe it’s because female bears are supposed to be more pissed off than male bears? You know, with bear periods and all. Or maybe God shoved their youngs in there somewhere.
A cut and paste from Monty P. (I hope you enjoy:)
Oh, Lord, Please Don’t Burn Us
Oh Lord please don’t burn us
don’t kill or toast your flock
Don’t put us on the barbecue
or simmer us in stock,
Don’t bake or baste or boil us
or stir-fry us in a wok.
Oh, please don’t lightly poach us
Or baste us with hot fat.
Don’t fricassee or roast us
Or boil us in a vat,
And please don’t stick thy servants, Lord,
In a Rotissomat”
–Composed by Eric Idle and John Du Prez, authored by Graham Chapman and John Cleese
No doubt, the fig tree had it rough man. First, some desert bitches come and pick all his fruit. Then JC rolls up on him, thinks that he just doesn’t have any fruit to bear, and curses him into oblivion. Poor fig, didn’t even see it coming. Game over man.
It’s a great Bible story, but you still get in trouble trying to apply to your life after you learn about it in catechism (or Sunday school). When your mother finds you pounding on your kid brother and screams “What do you think you’re doing!?”, it’s remarkably ineffective to say, “He called me a name and I don’t have any bears.”
That was always one of myh personal favorites – tryit on the next JW when they come by to witness on ya.
I’d invite them in and see how long they would last until they asked to leave… my record was under a minute.
Well, little children would not be mature enough to read your books- to start with….
But again, why were children reading the prophets books?
And on the she-bears- wouldn’t it be called bear-abuse? I mean they probably were sleeping peacefully somewhere…Do bears eat children? Or children bears? Curioser and Curioser…
No, this bible story is legit. Elisha was right to send the bears after the little snots. They deserved it. Bald guys deserve to be treated right. As mentioned above, if God really loved us, he’d give all bald guys two she-bears at their disposal. I’d use them well…
@ Duvenoy: something Kipling also knew:
“When the Himalayan peasant meets the he-bear in his pride
He shouts and waves a stick, the beast will often turn aside
The she-bear thus affronted rend the peasant tooth and nail
The female of the species is more deadly than the male”
I’ve never quite understood the attraction of making fun of bald guys, since bald=hot. Well, except for Lex Luthor. And Dr. Evil. All the rest of them, though.
Ummm…Professor X is bald, and so is the Silver Surfer…
From # 9:
“If God really love us, he would give two angry she-bears to every bald man.”
Nice job, Tony.
No, no, the very best Bible selection is Deuteronomy 25:11-12. Clearly written by the same being who created the galaxies, humanity, and physics itself!
Now I know how to spell siccing.
Professor X is evil?
Wait, I thought bears were godless killing machines.
One of my very favorites too. My NAB translates it as “Go up Baldhead”, leaving out that “thou”. Of course, it means “Up your’s baldy!” It must have been fun, or at least very interesting, back in the days when God was actively involved in the affairs of Man. Good times. rb
I love when clueless skeptics try to play Bible scholars and attempt to wrap their tiny little narrow minds around biblical stories.
I WANT MY SHE-BEARS!
jsn@28:
so… you mean this is one of the “literal word of god” parts that we’re supposed to treat as a metaphor?
And you know this… how? Devine revelation? a lucky guess? it told you so in a fortune cookie?
What?
Inquiring minds… Want. To. Know!
#23, one does have to wonder whether whoever added THAT little clause had some personal experience on the receiving end of that scenario. . . . I mean, why else would you even think to include it?
Ah yes, jsn. The whole you can’t understand the bible unless you believe the bible, in which case you don’t need to understand the bible cuz you already believe it. Excellent logic.
This reminds me of a comic book that I used to have (some bugger nicked it) called ‘Outrageous Tales from the Old Testament’: http://www.amazon.com/Outrageous-Tales-Testament-Tony-Bennett/dp/0861660544
As well as this lovely Elisha story, there was the the one where Lot throws his virgin daughter to the crowd to be raped, the genocide of the midianites and other instructive moral tales, lovingly rendered by the cream of comic authors and artists.
DennisN@32: we can’t understand the bible because it’s a garbled collection of confused fairy stories and half-assed homilies about one of two things: OT – do what I say or I’ll smite ya!; NT: do what I say or you’ll burn in the bad fire.
essentially — it’s all about bending over and letting your god give it to you in the ass (espescially after you’ve told him you prefer head)
Two she-bears here, or seventy two virgins in Heaven? Ok, I take the she-bears: a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Hey, jsn, are you ‘Jason’ who attempts to defend this retarded horsecack over on the Dwindling in Unbelief blog?
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2007/10/go-up-thou-bald-head.html
The other side of the story, naturally, was that the bears were pregnant and had one of those cravings and prayed to God to help them satisfy it. So God did.
As far as the fig is concerned, everyone seems to miss that it was not even fig season. No figs in fig season. The Creator of the fig should have known this… you’d think…
Would you then care to explain what the lesson of the “story” is, and perhaps even more importantly, whether you believe it actually occurred?
We need to suggest to Jack Chick that he write a tract to cover this one.
I don’t have the baldness issue. Pretty much the opposite, really. Worse, my hair doesn’t get long, it gets big. I met my wife at a place a couple weeks ago, and when she asked how she’d see me, I just told her to look for the giant Q-tip about halfway down the aisle.
Once, long ago, I was asked by my pastor for my favorite Biblical character.
I was in a snarky mood. I instantly responded, “Balaam’s ass.”
Dead silence for about five seconds, then I was asked the question, “Why?”
Oh, he HAD to ask. “Because he never spoke until he had something worthwhile to say,” I replied, looking straight at him. He wisely moved on to another young adult.
No she-bears, though.
Oh, yeah – here’s a joke:
Q. Did you know that human skin is the toughest material known?
A. It’s true – it says so in the Bible; Balaam tied his ass to a tree and walked ten miles.
Okay, not all bald men in comic books are evil……..
…but they are always people to be reckoned with!
I love it when Christians accuse, well, anybody of being narrow minded. They are, by default, closed off to all other gods, many of which are worshiped by hundreds of millions and their holy texts scrutinised by theologians centuries before Jesus was a gleam in the eye of whoever actually fathered him. Sorry, but some punk having a godgasm over a few words in a book they were raised not to question in any meaningful way doesn’t count for sweet fuck-all in terms of what it means to actually understand something.
Open minded? Empty headed, you mean.
Oh, and jsn? Get your own handle. We already have a jsn, and you’re a fucking moron and an asshole. I hope a Christian from another denomination slashes your tires.
As I’ve mentioned before, I know Steve Notley, and he’s at least twice the biblical value of pi times a smart and ‘open-minded’ as a clown like jsn.
No need to ask, that’s obvious: don’t mess with bald guys.
It’s a good lesson to know.
If you look at this passage in context with the rest of scripture, these children were actually youn men between the ages of 12 and 30. In fact the same hebrew word is used elsewhere to describe men in the military. When they said “go on up” they were mocking him and telling him to ascend to heaven like elijah. Elisha was being taunted by over 40 young men and most likely they could have became violent so god sent the bears to represent the coming judgement if the rest of the people of the city did not repent and respect his prophets.
I believe that’s just fancy apologetics and word twisting. They were actually young kids. Either way, couldn’t god have just pushed them away? Told them to go home? Nooooo, had to murder them with bears. Then you post-hoc rationalize it because god HAS to be good.
My favorite Babble quote:
Deuteronomy 23:12-14 (King James Version)
12)Thou shalt have a place also without the camp, whither thou shalt go forth abroad:
13)And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee:
14)For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver thee, and to give up thine enemies before thee; therefore shall thy camp be holy: that he see no unclean thing in thee, and turn away from thee.
God’s standard is higher than ours. If he sent an angel to kill every infant in the world right now, or to make everyone die from a plague, or any other horrible thing he would be justified in doing so because he is god, regardless of his reason. Anything god does is good even if we don’t understand it. However we are lucky enough to be living under the new covenent which is an age of grace. When he comes back, he will be just as wrathful as in the old testament.
Strong’s:
H5288
נער
na‛ar
nah’-ar
From H5287; (concretely) a boy (as active), from the age of infancy to adolescence; by implication a servant; also (by interchange of sex), a girl (of similar latitude in age): – babe, boy, child, damsel [from the margin], lad, servant, young (man).
Brown-Driver-Briggs’ Hebrew Definitions:
H5288
נער
na‛ar
BDB Definition:
1) a boy, lad, servant, youth, retainer
1a) boy, lad, youth
1b) servant, retainer
Part of Speech: noun masculine
New American Standard(r) Updated Edition Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:
H5288
נער
naar (654d); of unc. der.; a boy, lad, youth, retainer: – attendants (1), boy (19), boy’s (1), boys (1), child (12), children (4), lad (36), lad’s (2), lads (3), servant (34), servant’s (1), servants (23), young (12), young man (33), young men (38), young people (1), youth (14), youths (2).
God Hates Figs!
http://godhatesfigs.com/
And Shrimp!
http://godhatesshrimp.com/
I fail to see how killing babies is a “higher standard”.
As a bald guy, I approve of this story. Damn kids.
Thanks for playing, Mike. Some questions based on this one little snippet:
Does the age matter? I’d say, it’s a little less horrible if they were young men. But’s it’s still reprehensible.
The crime is still ‘taunting’, and the curse came from Elisha. How do you square that with his other traits as ‘a messenger of kindness’?
Your charge that they would become ‘more violent’ is extra-Biblical, unfounded and desperate. But if it is so, Elisha still invoked the curse, and he wouldn’t have known their intentions. Does a good God kill someone for what they might do? Isn’t judgement based on actions more than intentions? What happened to free will?
There. I made Mike’s sermon way less eye-clawingly and inanely stupid, without changing the potential truth-value whatsoever.
Please Mike, tell us more, and don’t spare the conviction. It must be right since you’re so earnest. (By the way, could you just as earnestly assert that cancer doesn’t exist? You’d really be saving a lot of people a lot of grief.)
Mike,
Unfortunately, it’s not just “na’ar”, it’s “quatan na’ar”, where “quatan” is a diminutive qualifier, like “little”.
Now, which makes more sense, “little boy” or “little young men”?
Also, you can drop this nonsense about God having a higher standard. If God’s behaviour is beyond the scope of human moral judgement, then there is absolutely no reason to call him “good”.
Mike blathered,
But God’s whole purpose in Jesus was that he could experience human suffering and not be such a genocidal prick.
You don’t seem to have even a foundational understanding of Christian theology. Sad.
@ #56:
Actually, the main purpose was to sacrifice himself to himself in order to change a rule he made up (i.e. torturing every human for all eternity because of something their ancestors did before they knew right from wrong).
I was actually an atheist for 28 years until I started to study the evidence of evoultion vs the evidence of intelligent design and creationism, as well as the bible. The bible has more historical and archeological proof than any other book that exists. Sure, I could be wrong, and there could be naturalistic explainations for life, but I have discovered enough evidence that I would not want to take a chance on being wrong, so I choose to believe in god. If I’m wrong, so what? I will one day cease to exist, but if I’m right I will live forever. If an athiest is wrong then eternal punishment is the price to pay. Evne when I was an atheist I never judged others for their beliefs. If someone wants to believe in something I find ridiculous it really doesn’t bother me…I just don’t understand why it bothers so many atheists.
Thanks, DaveL. That is most definitely a salient point.
I definitely agree on that! The Bible has more proof than ‘evoultion’. I’ve never even heard of ‘evoultion’!
You were an atheist for 28 years and never once saw Pascal’s Wager exposed as the BS it is?
What if you are wrong, but wrong in the god you picked. What if Allah is real? You’ll be burning alongside all of us.
Ryan, if you have actually studied christian theology from a believer’s perspective, you would realize that your post is nonsense. God’s coming to earth had nothing to do with wanting to experience suffering.
Mike’s using Pascal’s Wager! Hahahahahahahahaa… that’s cute.
But Mike, what if it’s really another god? Then every time you go to church you’re just making Vishnu madder and madder.
I was actually an atheist for 28 years until I started to study the evidence of evoultion vs the evidence of intelligent design and creationism, as well as the bible. – Mike
I don’t believe you. The misspellings, the hackneyed arguments, and especially the “I was actually an atheist…” spiel mark you out to just about everyone here as a poorly-educated, probably not very bright Fundie Death-Cultist, coming here to Lie for Jesus.
The bible has more historical and archeological proof than any other book that exists.
No it does not. It is a mass of self-contradiction, absurdity, and appalling immorality on the part of the central character.
I have discovered enough evidence that I would not want to take a chance on being wrong, so I choose to believe in god. If I’m wrong, so what? I will one day cease to exist, but if I’m right I will live forever.
What if there is a god, but it hates anyone taking any notice of it whatever, punishes anyone who prays with eternal torment, and rewards atheists with eternal bliss? That kind of god is no less (and no more) likely than your sky-daddy.
If an athiest is wrong then eternal punishment is the price to pay.
And you worship a being that you believe tortures people forever for having the wrong opinions? Are you evil, or just sick?
I love it! This has always been my favorite story in the bible. Just edging out the harlot with the staff.
Mike,
Read up on Luther’s theology of the cross. Not that you will, anyway.
My favorite story is when the stone the guy for picking up sticks on the sabbath, and it’s epilogue where Jesus tells people not to stone a whore (even though the laws he gave out earlier as god told them to; talk about confusing).
My second favorite part is when the god over the universe is foiled (drats!) by iron chariots.
Fixed that for you!
Not if you’re worshiping the wrong god. Or getting something dreadfully wrong in the way you worship the “correct” god.
Say, do you drive on Saturday?
[I can’t shake the notion that Mike is another Poe or Landover Baptist. Something a little too pat with the misspellings and regurgitated trite arguments. Oh, well.]
Ryan,thank you for avoiding the topic and becoming a spelling critic instead, that just goes to show how arrogant you really are. Dennis, I could be wrong, but comparing every religion, i decided that christianity has the most evidence. I made an educated guess.
If an atheist is wrong then eternal punishment is the price to pay.
How do you know this? This is the fallacy of the excluded middle. Perhaps if god does exist he will judge us on our actions and not our beliefs. In that case I think there will be far more atheists in heaven than theists who believe their actions are all forgiven simply by wishing (aka praying) it so.
If an athiest is wrong then eternal punishment is the price to pay.
Yeah, jumping off from Nick’s point above, the god you’re discussing gives people the ability to question its existence, and then punishes them for eternity for exercising that ability. What a childish thug.
The bible has more historical and archeological proof than any other book that exists.
*restrains uproarious laughter*
Have you ever investigated this claim? Do you have any basis for believing this? Or are you just parroting what some “expert” apologist said?
It’s not true. It’s a howlingly inane thing to say, to boot, that utterly exposes your ignorance of history, archaeology, AND the bible.
You’re either lying, or you have been lied to. If it’s the former, why do you feel the need to lie in defense of your faith? If it’s the latter, I’d be pissed off if I were you.
Oh, you’re one of those. I don’t know what the hell you think you studied, but it sure as hell wasn’t the evidence for evolution.
Pascal’s wager has been mentioned above. Be sure to mention your impeccable logic to Shiva when you meet him in the afterlife.
Like most here, I don’t give a flying fuck what you think you believe, as long as you keep your bullshit out the schools, out of politics, and lay the fuck off homosexuals.
Good to know you’re so non-judgemental. Now, what was that town of sinners that God’s she-bears were a warning to? If God told you to set a bomb in the middle of downtown New York you surely would, wouldn’t you? After all, he is wrathful. If it’s all the same to you Mike, I’ll keep my distance from your non-judgment. I’d hate to be standing next to you when God gives you his orders to terminate the heathens.
You really feel Christianity has more evidence than Deism? Or Islam? We have no evidence beyond the bible, which is ripe with contradictions and wrong statements. There’s no evidence for a mass exodus of Jews from Egypt, or a global flood, and those are the big ones you would expect to leave something.
Says the Phillistine. Just because your ‘education’ is lacking doesn’t mean it’s my fault for pointing it out.
but comparing every religion, i decided that christianity has the most evidence.
HOLY SHIT. That must have taken you a while. Where the hell did you get your hands on the documentation for them all? Especially like the ones practiced by tribes in the Amazon and such. You must have the most comprehensive comparative religion library on earth. Dude, you seriously have got to write a book. Or get someone to option a documentary. Shit.
Ah, Pascal’s wager…
1) As others have pointed out, there’s a third option: what if a powerful being/god exists, but not the one you conceive of? What if that god will punish you for your beliefs? Perhaps it’s a god who despises morons who put fear of eternal punishment above the search for genuine knowledge. No more unlikely than your version of god.
2) If god doesn’t exist, the consequence is that you’ve wasted your short life devoting it to a lie.
3) Even if the powerful being you profess to believe in exists, he certainly doesn’t deserve worship. Anyone who would eternally punish good people for the “sin” of unbelief (a punishment with no corrective power whatsoever) is not worthy of respect, much less worship.
First of all I have read Luther’s theology and I think he is flawed in that area. And also calling my arguements regurgitated is like the pot calling the kettle black. Also if I were ever presented with evidence that proved god did not exist, I would become an atheist again, because I’m not so arrogant to believe that I have all the answers.
See how insane that is if you just change the wording a little?
Ever notice how these wise and humble and non-judgemental Christians always seem to go after the low-hanging fruit when they’re argued against in this forum? “That guy is arrogant for picking on my sloppy writing, point for me!”
So what makes you qualified to speak for god? Voices in your head, found a stone tablet lying around, sacrificed one of your kids on an alter, talking with that burning bush in your back yard again?
Or did you just forget to take your medication?
If god is so arbitrary and murderous, why worship him? One could fear such a being like one would fear a rattlesnake or a fundie with a bible and a gun, but worship, why would anyone bother?
PS: On a few threads, I’ve pointed out that many fundies and creos that are motivated enough to post are either stupid or crazy or both. No one agreed with me but so what. Wackos like Mike show up like sunrises and prove the point anyway.
That settles it. Mike’s a liar, and understands nothing of evidence.
Fail.
Etha Williams (#77):
Indeed. The only sane response to such a god would be that seen in His Dark Materials or, better yet, the Preacher comics, in which the first human to get the opportunity decides to bring the bastard to justice, Texas style.
Someone who says that a god who does evil is justified regardless of the reason is not sane enough to understand that the evidence for the existence of god, does not itself exist.
Amen.
If I was god I would have Smitten the hell out of those bastards.
Etha wrote:3) Even if the powerful being you profess to believe in exists, he certainly doesn’t deserve worship. Anyone who would eternally punish good people for the “sin” of unbelief (a punishment with no corrective power whatsoever) is not worthy of respect, much less worship.
But don’t you see? It matters not whether he deserves worship, just about what he will do if you don’t. You worship not because he deserves it but because it will get you into heaven. It’s all about playing the odds. What a wonderful basis for faith.
Mike wrote: Evne when I was an atheist I never judged others for their beliefs.
Why not, after all, that’s what your god does, judges us on our beliefs and not our actions.
Mike also wrote: If someone wants to believe in something I find ridiculous it really doesn’t bother me…I just don’t understand why it bothers so many atheists.
Maybe because so many of your fellow believers are bothered by what we (don’t) believe.
Mike (#78) whined,
No you wouldn’t. You would just be a non-theist. An atheist only requires doubt, not proof of non-existance.
Since you didn’t know that, I’m just going to go ahead and say that for 28 years, you were an ignorant atheist, now you’re an ignorant Christian.
So do I. But then again, if you also don’t understand the basics of “impassibility”, then you don’t undertand Christianity. See above.
Oh this should be good.
What made you decide that Christianity has more evidence than Islam?
“ויעל משם בית אל והוא עלה בדרך ינערים קטנים יצאו מן העיר ויטקלסו-בו ויאמרו לו עלה קרח עלה קרח ”
“And he (Elisha) went from there to Beit-El and he was traveling (lit. going up) on the road and small youths from the city followed him and said ‘go up bald one, go up bald one'”
ויפן אחריו ויראם ליקללם בשם יהוה ותצאנה שתים דיבום מין היער ותבקענה מהם ארבעים ושני ילדים”
”
“And they chased after him and he saw them and cursed them in the name of god and two bears (it doesn’t specify sex) came out of the forest and slew forty two CHILDREN”
Note that it does not say נער which would mean youth, a word whose meaning has been debated here, but rather it clearly says ילדים which to anyone out there who speaks hebrew clearly means young children. There you go, I knew all those hours of “Prophets” class would be worth something :).
Actually, I think a reasonable (OK, a less insane) punishment would have been to make all of the kids bald. Who’re you calling “baldy”, baldies?
Zing!
raven (#81) said,
Well, I agree with you, and I’d also add that after a few posts they either,
1) slither away after being schooled.
2) change the topic and never answer a thing. rep[eat.
3) change the topic to say just how mean the critics are being and ignore the substantive arguments. Then slither away.
Mike’s moving in the direction of #3. Let’s see how long he lasts.
If they are not she-bears, I keep the 72 virgins.
Btw, I messed up the translation a little above, ותבקענה actually translates better as “mauled” then as “slew”. Also, while the word דיבום does not specifically denote the feminine tense, the words immediately preceding and following it are feminine so it does indeed mean “she-bears.” Okay, now that I’m done with the editorial stuff, here’s a fun article:
http://www.cracked.com/article_15699_9-most-badass-bible-verses.html
Richbank@89. Thanks for the hebraic transcription. I’d seen a bunch or translations and all said ‘children’. I figured that – as in most tribal societies – the language would have a term that distinguished child from youth or man (just as those societies generally have a ‘coming of age’ ritual to signify the transition)
Mike is obviously a poster child for Raven’s ‘creo’ demographic: challenged in many ways, believing himself educated but demonstrating, instead, insanity.
tony
I love how Elisha looks a wee bit like Rusty Venture…
I never read the bible. Fantasy is not my favorite genre, and I don’t usually dig work with plotholes big enough you can drive a truck through them. So I never knew how ridiculous some of the quotes could get.
It’s so ridiculous I had to add to my favorite quotes on facebook… now I’m not the only one without a biblical verse as one of my fave quotes. =)
No problem, always glad to help clarify a topic I know something about.
I won’t choose to go in one of your directions, Ryan. Instead I will just pray for you and leave in peace. As far as not understanding christianity, read 1 corinthians 2:14-16
14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment:
16″For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
@#98 Mike —
This really says it all.
Nobody’s talking about ‘the mind of Christ’, douchebag.
I’m just saying that you’re ignorant of theology, history and foundational aspects of your professed faith, which makes your claim to know the ‘evidence’ pretty hollow.
You believe, but you clearly don’t know what you believe. C’est la vie.
Mike, what evidence convinced you for Christianity over Islam?
You can think I’m ignorant of those things if you wish, but how about proving that you are not ignorant as well? I have extensively studied Intelligent design, creationism, biblical history, as well as theology. If you wish to see a clear rebuttal of evoultion, go here http://www.ridgenet.net/~do_while/sage/v6i10f.htm
Anyonwe who would call someone alse a “douchebag” belongs in middle school, so at this point I will assume you are an angry child. Just thank god you live in this day and age or you may have been one of the youths in the bear attack.
Well, I was a Christian for 34 years. Sopped up the Bible like a sponge. Taught it for years–until my conscience started to bother me about the absolutely inane excuses I was giving to support my beliefs. (And, no, those of other apologists weren’t appreciably better.)
So I see you and raise you six years.
I see no rebuttal of Evolution, clear or not, there. Only someone answering, and poorly, the SCI-AM list.
weak weak weak mike.
I’ve noticed that you assume a lot of things, and you know what they say about assumptions, right?
Well, ‘children’ as richbank ably demonstrated. Which you have not answered in response. Just another thing that you’re wrong about, I’m afraid.
If I had a dime for every time a creo-bot who can’t explain a single aspect of their philosophy clearly simply deferred it to a website jungle of bad arguments, I’d be Bill Gates.
Since you lack the articulation needed to explain yourself, it stands to reason that these sites didn’t help you.
Like saying you studied theology, but still don’t understand the basics. Adorable!
No wonder Mike didn’t find any of the other religions compelling. He didn’t have the spirit of Buddhism in him, so he didn’t become a Buddhist. He didn’t have the spirit of Hinduism in him, so he didn’t become a Hindu. He didn’t have the spirit of Cao Đài Tiên Ông Đại Bồ Tát Ma-ha-tát, so he didn’t become an adherent of Cao Đài. He didn’t have the spirit of….
Of course, I have the spirit of Atheism in me, so why he’s trying to preach Christianity to me is mystery.
‘Course, he could just be lying.
holy commas whoa
If you don’t want to believe you never will, to me everything I have read about evolution is weak weak weak. Also even if evoultion is true than you can still believe in theistic evolution. The point is you can’t prove my god deesn’t exist and I cant’t prove he does.
“I won’t choose to go in one of your directions, Ryan. Instead I will just pray for you and leave in peace. As far as not understanding christianity, read 1 corinthians 2:14-16”
“Just thank god you live in this day and age or you may have been one of the youths in the bear attack.”
Ah. The classic passive aggressive evangelical, who complains about “foul” language (“douchebag? Pass the smelling salts, please!”), claims to take the higher ground by “praying” for them and says he’ll leave in peace, only to return a few minutes later and give a veiled passive aggressive threat (“well, YOU’RE lucky God isn’t mad enough at you to send She-Bears to EAT YOU!”)
Classic.
C’mon…this is a really a joke, right? Poe’s Law and all?
deesn’t was supposed to be doesn’t, just so you don’t freak out about my spelling. You’r right ButtholeSurfer christians can get angry too and right now I wish god would smite some of you people, even if I know it’s wrong. However I realize I souldn’t be gerring angry, so I am leaving for good now.
Um, no. That URL you posted does not do what you say it does. period. There is no two ways about it. And if your sources for evolution are websites like that it’s no wonder.
Since you are so well read, please give me some things about evolution you don’t find convincing.
LMAO. This, along with the verse “the spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment,” sums up the fundie position quite nicely.
This sheds interesting light on your previous statement:
If this is true, you were obviously a rather reluctant atheist, since you apparently nevertheless really wanted to believe.
Typical. When the going gets tough, run away.
@ ButtholeSurfer (#109)
Aye, he has such rage in him, but to express it is non-Christian.
And to think, we could have had a peaceful but snarky discussion of apologetics. Too bad he tipped his psycho-death cultist hand too early what with his whole ‘wrathful God’ argument.
Come on mike. We know you’re still reading the comments.
Give in to the dark side mike. Let your hate flow.
No you haven’t, liar. It’s obvious that you haven’t. It’s as if you flew to Berlin, walked into a beerhall claiming “I’ve studied German extensively!”, and then tried to converse with people by randomly saying combinations of “Volkswagon”, “Hasenpfeffer”, “Deutsche Mark”, “Schadenfreude”, “Bratwurst”, and “Blitzkrieg.”
Remember, if you failed all the exams, you don’t get to say you studied a subject extensively.
Mike: “I wish god would smite some of you people, even if I know it’s wrong.”
Yahweh just told me you’re a dumb-ass, and zie asked me to remind you that zir name is “Yahweh”; “god” is merely a job description.
I love a good smiting. I wish god would smite the shit out of someone soon.
I can prove that either you are insane for believing in your god, or that the god that you believe in is insane.
Because only an insane person, or an insane god, would claim that evil is good because it is god performing the evil.
If the meaning of the story really is to teach people to respect people whom God has put in a position of authority, then the story is still evil.
Mike, what medicine do you take when you have an infection? If it’s anything other than straight penicillin, you saying you don’t believe in evolution makes you a Liar for Jesus. (Not even counting the fact that going to a doctor at all instead of praying makes you a hypocrite.)
And Mike when you come back, and you will maybe not in this thread but in another, let me know what evidence convinced you to go with jesus instead of mohammed.
… would that by any chance be Glenfiddich? ;)
Actually the truth is I used to be an atheist, then became a christian, and now I am agnostic and trying to discern what the truth really is. I was just posting the responses that I would have posted whan I was a christian to see what kind of response I would get and try to get some perspective on the issue. The truth is I can see good arguments on both sides and have been researching apologetics from both camps for months but I have really never taken any college courses on evolution or anything else and everything I know about the bible comes from christian apologists. I am just trying to decide how a layman, just an average blue collar person with a high school education can decied what to believe. Also, I have a really good friend who is a christian and he says he prayed for a man once and actually seen a gaping wound heal instantly, and three others who are not even christians verify seeing it as well. I have no reason not to trust them, and it is the only supposed miracle they have ever witnessed, so he says that regardless of what evidence is presented he will always believe. How are things like this reconciled with science? Also I have read some christian theories about god creating humans and many basic kinds of animals, and then the different species we have today evolved from the originals. look at this site http://www.nwcreation.net/evolution.html Is this real science? I guess for now I will just be agnostic with a “fuck it, who cares” attitude. Anyway sorry for the deceit but it was fun.
I call bullshit in the strongest way possible.
This is a typical Creo-bot type of argument. Unprovable but “more than one saw it, I swear”.
It won’t reconcile with science because it did not happen. Either they are lying or you are, period.
Mabye they are, or mabye they actually believe the saw it…I don’t know.
I just found a site I have been looking for, what does everyone think of this? http://healingsandmiracles.org/index.htm
Well see Mike this is typical of the types of things that religious people do. They make some extraordinary claim that is impossible to verify. They also are unable to repeat the “miracle” in front of anyone who wants it verified. Yet they continue to “swear” by it.
It’s pitiful and makes them out to be both liars or idiots. Or usualy, both.
@#127 Mike —
The first sentence of their “Introduction to Creationary Evolution” is a Lie for Jesus:
Evolutionary theory is not an “atheistic” theory any more than the theory of gravity is atheistic for not involving God; and it does not seek to explain the presence of life (that’s abiogenesis), but rather the diversity of life.
You really need to come up with better websites to support your claim. Unfortunately, such websites don’t exist, so maybe you should quit while you’re not too far behind.
Mike, go away. You’ve likely not impressed anyone with your stunt, be it a lie or not.
This is pretty much along the lines of what I think.
It’s utter horseshit.
Now go away. You have lost any respect you might have had.
I wasn’t claiming anything I was simply asking it it was legitimate science.
I don’t want on need your respect.
Geez,If being an atheist means I have to be a mean asshole, I will stay agnostic. What sick pleasure do you get from being so arrogant and mean spirited?
He actually had some?
Went to your Healings and Miracles site, Mike. Clicked on “Click here for medical documents,” because I thought that would lead to the best evidence. Know what I got? “The page cannot be found.” Now, what should I take away from that?
Try clicking medical documentation on the left side of the site, it works.
I once saw the Easter Bunny. In my house. I think I was eight. I have no idea what it was. The most likely explanation was that it was one of my parents in a bunny suit, but they never ‘fessed up to it, nor can I explain why they would have bothered to put the suit on, since whoever was in the suit didn’t act like they expected or knew that I saw.
So weird. It really flipped me out. (When my parents finally did ‘officially’ wake up and come downstairs, they found I hadn’t even bothered to look for any of the chocolates they hid because seeing such a mystical beast was a better Easter happening than getting chocolates. I felt ‘spiritually’ satisfied. Man, I was a dreamy and mystical kid.)
Hard to tell if Mike is seriously mentally ill or just a seriously bored troll wasting time. Either way it isn’t worth reading any more of it.
Fundie Xians frequently circulate lies and rumors among themselves to reinforce the groupthink. Once someone from a third world country told me that they prayed at a funeral for someone who was dead and about to be buried to come back to life. Like Lazarus in the NT. And the person opened the lid of the coffin and got up and walked away.
Of course there is never any independent confirmation of these events.
Another person once told me about an attempt on his life by evil spirits and witches while he was staying at a remote cabin. He wasn’t lying, he was so terrified he was shaking uncontrollably and stuttering. He is also an ex and occasionally current mental patient.
Asking opinions makes me mentally ill?
What is well documented is faith healers killing their kids. The two recent ones are in Oregon and Wisconsin and both parent sets are being charged with crimes.
The medical examiner in the state of Oregon estimates that in the last few decades, the Followers of Christ cult have killed between 20 and 40 of their kids by denying them medical care. You’d think they would learn from experience or something.
No coming here, lying about what you are and what your intentions are is one hint. I’m still not convinced with your sudden “deconversion”.
I had the same experience with Santa Claus when I was like 5 or 6. I did find out years later it was my dad though.
You mean other than the Chinese and Burmese?
I think god’s in a pretty frakkin’ bad mood right now — perhaps he could use a martini and a nice bath.
I should just give up on using the blockquote tag. I’m obviously not checked out on this machinery.
Mike, could you explain exactly what you believed when you were an atheist? Were you raised in a religion and then left, or not raised with one and just never thought about it? If you were raised Christian, could you describe what made you decide to leave Christianity? Did you know any of the arguments against a god that atheists use, and if so, what convinced you that they were wrong?
I don’t really want to argue with you, I would just be interested in understanding your background a little better.
Mike’s not mentally ill. He’s a servant of the Crawling Chaos Nyarlathotep, who uses human proxies to spread insanity and lies.
For it is written that Moses freed Yog-Sothoth from his dimensional prison underneath Mt. Sinai. Yog Sothoth took the name Yahweh, and His is the face hidden behind all gods.
Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again.
Don’t waste your time, he’s pants are smoldering from a recent fire caused by him being a big fat liar.
Ok whatever, as far as i’m concerned, this is just the internet, and half of the crap her is lies, so who really cares?
Gosh, Mike, that was a stupid stunt.
You’re right, we no longer care what your opinion is. I’m sure you’ll just hope for a good smiting now. Good luck with that.
Oh, and I call bullshit on #125.
I’m going back to my popcorn now.
Says the liar. But ok fine. The problem is, now who is to trust anything you say?
So since you brought it up, what is your take on Mrs. Gecko Tail-Leg?
None of the medical documents seem to give any real proof.
If that’s true, I wouldn’t expect a response anyway. But enough people say similar things that I want an elaboration.
I would have posted sample blockquote code, but I see you figured it out.
The problem with faith healing is that if it were real, then the various real-world tests of prayer would show that. Yet prayer works about as well as chance, or doing absolutely nothing, and in some cases, slightly worse.
I don’t know about this gaping wound healing thing, but I would wonder about the veracity of the witnesses, the surrounding circumstances, the depth of the wound, and so on.
I would also wonder why a God who had any benevolence whatsoever would heal a gaping wound rapidly, and yet allow the devout daughter of devout parents to die in agony as her entire family prayed over her.
Oh I know how it works, I am just the master of fast but inaccurate typing. :)
Not that anyone cares probably by this point, and not that I’ve looked into this particular passage very deeply, but I imagine that what is at issue here is the Biblical editor’s hostility to Bethel as a cult center rival to Jerusalem.
Nothing Fails like Prayer
Which half of which crap is lies? The internet in general, or scienceblogs, or pharyngula?
If you don’t care about truth at all, why bother asking any questions?
If all you want to do is tell lies, there are plenty of places that are amenable to that. I understand that somethingawful and 4chan are forums for exactly that.
qbsmd, I was raised in a christian household in the broadest sense of the term. My parents believed but were not practicing believers. I was always just expected to believe because everyone else did and since I live in the south, almost everyone I have ever met is a christian in some way. Where I live to be an athiest is to be an outcast. Anyway, I decided when I was around 16 that the bible was just myth and god didn’t exist and believed it for years, but then I married a christian woman and later started reading books on christian apologetics and intelligent design and I was convinced. Then, after a few years for personal reasons I started to doubt my faith and started looking at atheist apologetics and realized that there are rebuttals on both sides and it is hard to sort the truth from the propaganda.
No we’re getting somewhere. So, what is your take on evolution now, since you brought it up previously?
Well it really does sound convincing, but so does the christian view that scientists that support evolution do so because they presuppose materialism. But then christians presuppose that god exists because they say the bible has tremendous proof as being true. I don’t have a firm grasp of science, but from my point of view, every argument for evolution has an equally good rebuttal from the ID/creationist camp.
Okay, Mike, that makes sense. I gave up Christianity at 17; I had doubts due to a combination of the argument from suffering and divine silence, then started reading the Bible to find an answer and was repeatedly convinced that it could not possibly be inspired by God. At one time, I had a problem with the idea of great complexity occurring naturally, but Richard Dawkins’ “Climbing Mount Improbable” answered any doubts I had about that (I recommend this highly).
I also understand the difficulties of trying to find reason here. While I have no disagreements with science, I disagree with the majority here on many of their political beliefs, so I occasionally get to see them respond to me the same way they do to you.
For example?
Thank you for your response, It’s good to talk to someone who has been through this. The hardest part about atheism for me to accept is that life really has no purpose and morals really don’t exist unless we make them up in our own minds. Do you agree with this? I mean If we are all just highly evolved animals, then can there really be good or evil? I know that no one can really answer these questions, but these are the things that bother me.
Damn, per #111, I was looking forward to a good smiting, And after the smiting, the oral sex. Hmmm, time to rent the “Holy Grail” again.
Ciao from Castle Anthrax
None of the medical documents seem to give any real proof.
NOW you start to care about proof?
Duck, people, Mike’s head exploding in a puff of logic in 5… 4… 3…
Rev. BigDumbChimp, go to this site and scroll down to the articles about evolution
http://www.ridgenet.net/~do_while/sage/topics.htm
and here is another
http://www.icr.org/home/resources/resources_tracts_scientificcaseagainstevolution/
Again I am no scientist but it all sounds convincing and there are many more sites that i have came across.
I don’t have any more problem with that than the alternative; religious morality is OBEY or else. The way I understand morality is that it is the set of rules that are necessary to be accepted by society. Many of them are common to all cultures and could believably have evolved (“The Selfish Gene” explains a lot of this in terms of natural selection and game theory), and the parts that are different seem arbitrary or even immoral (e.g. any Muslim honor killing). I think the definition of morality should that things that hurt others are bad and things that help others are good, allowing for punishment of bad acts and rewarding of good acts.
Christian culture has a negative influence on the meaning of life as well; growing up believing in eternal life makes everything that exists here less meaningful. I’m still working this out myself too.
The purpose thing is something you’ll have to answer yourself but as far as morals go there are a number of explanations. The one I like is that morals are an evolved trait. There are very easily explained social reasons not to “smite” your neighbor that were around long before any bible. There are also good reasons not to steal, harm, etc..
E.O. Wilson caused some controversy with his book Sociobiology and then On Human Nature that deals with this
I know of those sites, but I am asking you why you find them convincing. And what arguments specifically.
Mike —
If you are sincere in wanting to understand the evidence for evolution, I highly suggest http://www.talkorigins.org. You might start with their Evolution FAQ.
And that wasn’t meant to be snarky, I’m actually interested.
Thank you both, I never thought about the possibility of morals evolving.
Mike, I started looking at one of the sites you listed:
“but with very clear and — apparently — unbridgeable gaps between the kinds.”
Look up ring species.
Most of the next part is standard creationist misconceptions. Evolution predicts that the more similar two species are, the more recent their common ancestor will be. In a few million years, any given species (that has not gone extinct) may have given rise to several new species, but they would all be the same genus. Things that are in the same genus now would have ancestors that appear more different, and probably be classified differently. But there can never be a new order of mammals or a new phylum of animals, which is what that guy seems to expect for some reason.
I feel appropriately foolish.
Mike, I’ve pointed people to skepticsannotatedbible before, and I’ll do it again. They actually link to here as well, which is how I found it. You will find the debate on their forums surprisingly well-mannered.
What got me out of Christianity is the shear volume of bad logic. My prime example is this: People who believe in God say that God is infinitely wise, infinitely powerful, and infinitely loving. The problem is, we have to add infinitely petty to that. Why would a Supreme Being allow his flawed creations to burn in a fiery lake for an eternity merely for doubting? He created us; He knew we were flawed; He knew we’d ask questions. So for doubting, we get an eternity of torment?
Why didn’t God just smite Satan lo these many years ago, and be done with the fiery lake once and for all? God is infinitely powerful, right? I mean, wow, look at the universe He created. How many hundred million light years across is it? That’s pretty darned powerful.
And, trust me, for certain people, I wish there was a Hell. Hitler deserves an eternity of torture for what he did, to name one. In my opinion, Mao should be there. Tojo. Dahmer.
Here’s the deal: Suppose you have two people, one an innocent Hawaiian, born in 1500, who gets swept away in a tsunami and dies at the age of 4, who had not accepted Christ. Suppose further than Hitler had a sincere conversion 24 hours before he died. You have to work with me on that one; just accept it so I can make my point (and besides, it’s not like you can prove this did not happen).
Your minister will tell you that Hitler is now in Heaven, while the tsunami victim is now being tortured for an eternity.
Is this wise? Is it loving? Does it show mercy? Is it even smart?
I think the answer is a resounding no.
Smite me if you must for saying so, but this is where the God of Abraham fails completely.
Secondly, a philosophical system that contradicts known physical facts so completely is a flawed philosophical system, in my opinion. We can prove very convincingly that dinosaurs died out long before the first humans appeared. How did Adam “name” them if they were extinct before there was an Adam?
Who did Adam and Eve’s children marry?
How did Noah’s flood happen?
Why did God allow Ham to see Noah naked, and then punish Canaan for it, even when God’s stated mission was to wipe out all evil?
Why is death a just punishment for coveting my neighbor’s man-servant?
Sorry, but after a while, you just risk Pascal’s Wager. It’s the only logical thing left to do.
And yet, is that not what religions do? That is, make them up in their own minds?
At one point, it was a terrible crime, worthy of the death penalty, to light a fire on Saturday.
Now it no longer is.
What happened?
The offshoot sects of Judaism that became Christianity changed their minds on that issue.
Actually, the sects of Judaism that became rabbinical Judaism changed their minds on that as well. It’s still forbidden, of course, but none of them apply the death penalty for breaking that particular “law” of God.
Meanwhile, the essence of all ethical behavior does not change.
Does a particular action affect someone else? If so, would you want that action to be performed on you? How would you feel if your situations were reversed?
Ethical action simply requires a knowledge of the consequences of one’s actions, and caring about those consequences.
The issue of whether God exists or not isn’t even relevant.
I would classify that guy’s references to work on the origin of life as intentionally deceptive. As I understand it, and someone will correct me if I’m wrong, an RNA strand left on its own can replicate it’s complement, which can then replicate the original. This occurs because the complementary base pairs will stick together. Assuming this occurs in a medium which is warm enough or chemically active enough to form and break bonds, but not boil or evaporate the organic molecules, sometimes nucleotides will connect, or disconnect. The ones that stick to the original RNA strand will be held next to each other longer than ones elsewhere, so they will be more likely to bond together. Sometimes they’ll get knocked apart, or off of the original strand, but since these collisions are happening thousands of times per second, RNA replicates in real time.
Once a self replicating molecule exists, variants that replicate better will replicate better. Ribozymes show the ability of RNA to do some of the tasks proteins can do catalyzing other reactions. One that manages to store its pattern in DNA and read it back will be more fit than others because DNA is more stable than RNA (this would effectively extend its life span). Similarly, one that manages to copy itself into amino acids to make a protein will be able to catalyze more types of reactions more effeciently, and build structures.
Also, the cell is made of a phospholipid bilayer, and I have been told that just phospholipids in water automatically form small spheres do to hydrophillichydrophobic forces, and most of the stuff that life is made of seems to form pretty easily: Miller’s experiment doesn’t replicate what scientists think the early Earth looked like anymore, and many other experiments with different conditions still formed amino acids and nucleotides (I would like a reference for this if anyone knows more).
Multicellular life evolved from unicellular by specialization. If a group of cells with the same genes are nearby, chemicals put out by some can regulate gene expression in others, which can result in some producing, for example digestive enzymes, which simultaneously deactivate those genes in their neighbors, and activate for example, the genes needes to reproduce. You then have something that you could call a digestive organ and a reproductive organ. Some type of E coli does something like this. Once gene expression can’t go backwards (cells turning into stem cells), then the different cell types are dependant on one another, and you have a multicellular organism.
I’m not a biologist, but everything that guy wrote is obviously (to me) wrong so far, so I’m done reading unless there’s a specific point you want addressed.
Mike, it’s simple. Morals developed as we did. We’re a social species, and we’re intelligent ones at that. It’s only normal we make up rules as we go that are the best for our survival and evolution. God’s not a must. Giving some unprovable dude the credit for something we could develop as we went pretty much sucks.
And you need a reason to live? What’s the reason to live in christianity? To go to God? I’m sorry, but my reason to live is well… To live. I think it’s the best reason there is to life.
I would rephrase this a bit, although I’m not a biologist either.
As best I understand it, the current theory is that the cells that became multicellular resulted from large single cells (eukaryotes) absorbing a different type of cell (prokaryotes, which in this case were mitchondria), yet not digesting that cell. The eukaryotic cell provides oxygen and nutrients to the mitochondria in exchange for the ATP used by the eukaryotic cell.
This is called the endosymbiotic theory, and looks to be fairly well supported so far.
Once those collectives of eukaryotic cells arose, they could become larger, with more cells per collective, by specializing into tissues that provided nutrients and oxygen to all members of the collective.
Some useful books:
The Ancestor’s Tale, by Richard Dawkins
The Plausibility of Life, by Marc W. Kirschner and John C. Gerhart
Yeah, I’ve heard of endosymbios, and it’s important, but my post was already about 3x longer than I thought it was. And that’s prokaryote->eukaryote. There are unicellular eukaryotes (protists, some fungi); it’s just that some eukaryotes evolved into multicellular organisms.
I guess for now I will just be agnostic with a “fuck it, who cares” attitude.
That is not “agnostic”, I think the word you are looking for is “apathetic”. Agnostic does not mean “I don’t know” (if there is a God or not), nor “I can’t decide if there’s a God or not”. It means God’s existence cannot be known. It is actually quite a strong statement about the nature of God, it is not an intermediate point between belief and disbelief.
I’m sorry I didn’t explain better, but that is basically my conclusion, I don’t think that god’s existence can be known, so i really don’t care anymore.
What a nice surprise. I come home after a few post-work pints with some coworkers to see that Mike has some genuine questions after all. Glad you stuck around and came clean, Mike.
Mike, please take up some of the suggestions to read talkorigins.com. I’m not being partisan when I say that groups like the Institute for Creation Research are full of crap. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming, and there’s little reason to doubt it. You may or may not be aware, but there are lots of scientists who manage to reconcile the truth of evolution with their religious convictions. I mention this for your benefit, as well as for the benefit of your wife, should she be interested.
As for the meaning of life, morality, etc., keep in mind that such things have been examined by every generation, religious or not, for the last 10,000 years or more. Pat answers are not likely forthcoming anytime soon. However, that being said, consider this: whether or not God has a plan obviously has no bearing on this life; suffering and joy are not respectively guaranteed to the evil and the good. The same would be expected of a secular, uncaring universe. Salvationist religions, right or wrong, get around this by promising a just afterlife. Atheism cannot.
But, if you’ll forgive me for using your wife in this example (I obviously know nothing about your relationship but what you’ve already mentioned), is belief in a deity necessary for you to derive joy from making her happy? No religious book dictates that one take pride in the growth of their children, yet every healthy parent does so. God or not, it’s in our nature to love, to cooperate, to delight in our friends, family, and even strangers, as much as it’s in our nature to hate and fight each other. Are these feelings completely made up ‘in our own minds’? And if so, does that change them?
@#184 Mike —
But it would seem that you do care, since you took the trouble of posing as a fundie to elicit responses in order to “try to get some perspective on the issue.”
And while I disagree with your particular method, I think it’s good that you care enough to try to inquire. Just try to keep in mind that just because a belief system purports to have all the answers, doesn’t mean it’s right. Religion may have simple answers to all your questions about meaning, morality, origins, etc, but its comprehensiveness doesn’t mean a damn thing if those answers aren’t true.
You’re right, by the way, that the existence or non-existence of a divine being cannot be proven. For atheists, that is enough– the makers of a claim have to be able to prove it for it to be accepted, and the claim for the existence of god, lacking proof, can be discarded. (At least that’s what I’ve read here before.)
An agnostic leaves it as “unproven”… and may speculate on what that means. After all, if God wanted to be worshipped, wouldn’t there be better reason to do so than being told it’s necessary by the adherents of a very old book that doesn’t always make sense? Perhaps god exists, but prefers to be unknown. If a divine will guided us to big brain status (evolution is a fact, but to pursue this idea, we could accept divine guidance of evolution), then we were meant to have intelligence; being gifted with intelligence would be ridiculous if we weren’t meant to use it. Therefore, skepticism, not faith, is God’s preference. In making the Maker obscure, but the universe of matter explorable, it is clearly inferable that God intended us to explore the material world, and therefore scientists, not priests, are the doers of divine will and religion only gets in the way of our real purpose.
In short, I can see no choice but for a rational agnostic to assume that God or no God, the atheists are closer to us than the religious, even if one does get made fun of from time to time for not coming to a final conclusion.
Why would a loving God honor the request of a man who orders up a curse on a bunch of kids for teasing him? The man was at best an idiot, at worst a sociopath (since he apparantly witnessed children being mauled to death and just walked away without a twinge of remorse.) Clearly he didn’t deserve the Prophet job, since he was abusing what power he was given.
You’d think an infinitely wise, loving God would have said, “Aw, suck it up you stupid cry-baby, they’re just kids!”
Bill S, #188
I came to the conclusion long ago that if the god of the bible were real, then he didn’t deserve to be worshiped. Recently, I listened to Dr. Robert Price talk about the bible (http://infidelguy.libsyn.com/index.php?post_category=The%20Bible%20Geek) and one of his claims, which puts everything in better perspective, is that the Hebrews originally had a pantheon like the Greeks, where El was the king of the gods, and Yahweh was the sun god/ god of war, whose wife was Ashera, etc. The words God, LORD, and Lord in the bible were translated from different names. Each god was originally given a group of people to rule over, Yahweh’s started with Adam and Eve, and later Yahweh decided to become the main god by having his people conquer everyone else, and make everyone stop worshiping the other gods. Given that background and motivation, much of the bible (Cain’s wife, ordering genocide, etc) make much more sense than the modern Christian idea of God.
Elijah = John the Baptist
Elisha = Christ
If you understand that, you can understand the story.
Elijah = John the Baptist
Elisha = Christ
If you understand that, you can understand the story.
– alleluia @190
So you’re saying Christ was bald? Nah, you can’t fool me – I’ve seen The Shroud Of Turin!
And Christ said, “Suffer the little children to come to me. So that I can have them torn to pieces by bears.”
alleluia #190, Are you telling us the bible should be read as allegory, rather than the literal word of Yahweh?