The Saturday poll


Would you believe a school in Minnesota suspended three eighth graders for refusing to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance? Outrageous. The pledge is ridiculous to begin with and replaces conscientious thought with blind obedience, and I think it ought to be rejected everywhere, but to punish students for refusing to kowtow to McCarthyite relics is absurd.

Greg Laden wants us to crash this poll. It’s a bit redundant, fortunately, since the forces of reason are already leading, but let’s tip it farther.

Here’s the silly poll:

Did school officials react properly to the students who did not stand for the Pledge of Allegiance?

  • Yes, but the punishment should have been more severe.
  • Yes, a one-day, in-school suspension is about right.
  • No, they should have been given a warning first.
  • No, they shouldn’t be required to stand.

Comments

  1. says

    From the poll page:

    Editor’s note: Instant polls are intended as entertainment. They are not considered to be true measurements of public opinion.

    I consider myself entertained. Intention fulfilled!

  2. says

    It is crazy. One person said “This is the Land of the Free so Feel Free to Leave”! Freedom applies to everyone, not just the people you like.

  3. says

    Currently, the two “yes” answers together have 5777 votes, or 46.5%. That’s pretty disgusting Maybe they should have claimed their religion forbid it. Then everything would be fine, right?

  4. Michael X says

    It’s disturbing to see the number of people who think that the punishment should have been more severe.

  5. says

    And “No, they should have been given a warning first.” is still an endorsement of the rule that they MUST stand. I’d say it’s really more closely related to the ‘Yes’ options.

    *Passes out torches to the poll crashers.*

  6. Alex says

    I stand for the pledge but don’t say it, simply to avoid confrontation. I always yell at the assholes who give people a hard time for not standing.

  7. MarcusA says

    Patriotism is just a cloak for crooks. Truly honorable people don’t need to advertise.

    And the pledge is a waste of time. I had to do it when I was a kid, and it didn’t mean a thing to me. I think it actually creates resentment in children.

  8. neito says

    The best part is when one of the people in the article says basically that 8th graders don’t have opinions, and they’re just doing this for attention.

  9. says

    This poll must be dominated! Even if “no, they shouldn’t have been required to stand” is already the majority, it needs to stand monolithic over the other possible answers to show how ridiculous any other option truly is. This will be one small step backward to jingoistic herd mentality, and one giant leap forward for rational thought! Or just another crashed online poll! Either way, we win!

  10. SC says

    Kim Dahl said the “punishment didn’t fit the crime. If they wanted to know why he didn’t stand, they should’ve made him write a paper.”

    There was of course no crime on the part of these students and thus no need for punishment of any kind, but this would be a good learning exercise if they also required all of the students who do stand and recite to write a paper explaining in detail why they do so and just how they think this behavior promotes freedom and democracy.

  11. JRY says

    Re #7, ShadowWalkyr:

    Since suspensions hurt average daily attendance (ADA) and ADA is used to determine funding and teacher units, in-school suspension (ISS) is, in theory, a punishment designed to keep the student in school, but separated from the rest of the student body. While in ISS, the student is expected to do the classwork that is assigned during those days he is in there. S/he may be able to get some assistance from the ISS “teacher” as well.

  12. Reginald says

    Forcing students to stand for the pledge is already illegal. West Virginia was the one that got that going to the Supreme court. Wish I could remember the exact case, but it’s a violation of the 1st and 14th amendments.

  13. Rey Fox says

    Shall we drag out the old Inigo Montoya quote again with regards to “freedom”?

    I don’t think I’m quite as against the Pledge as some people. I think it might be good for young elementary students as part of the greater goal of getting them to realize that they live in a society together. You know, the whole “citizenship” thing that many elementary teachers are big on.

    But it should really be given the heave-ho before sixth grade, if not earlier. And, of course, trash the “under God” bit.

    “Wait. . .what exactly is an “in-school suspension”?”

    If I remember correctly from high school, it’s basically detention during class. You still have to go to school, but you can’t go to your actual classes. They might not even let you do homework there. I never had to go.

  14. ice9 says

    In school is the remedy for suspension that is too much fun–typically used only for single-day suspensions, “remainder of the day” or “cool off” situations, etc. It’s just detention, really, but in these litigious days it can be worse since schools more and more make disciplinary records available and a suspension is more serious than a detention.

    A curious upshot of this whole story is yet another reminder of how shallow is most Americans’ (especially those of the conservative ilk) understanding of the law. Schools routinely ignore precedent, such as the raft of rulings that relate to this case. They can do that because the incidence of civil disobedience-style protest has fallen nearly to nil. Nobody tests rules anymore, so schools can set their own rules regardless of the trend of the law. Ironic indeed since schools are supposed to teach students about stuff. There ain’t a kid alive in the US who hasn’t heard the “I Have a Dream” speech, and most venerate MLK, but very few have any inkling of King’s tactics relative to the law. I run high school publications and television, and I am constantly educating my colleagues about the most obvious essentials of freedom. Guess who the worst culprits are in my school? Social Studies teachers. Sad.

    ice

  15. says

    @MarcusA:

    I had to do it when I was a kid, and it didn’t mean a thing to me. I think it actually creates resentment in children.

    It’s been a long time since I recited the pledge, but as a school kid, I remember it in the same light as I remember reciting the rosary: bored stiff. The words turn into mumbles after a while and completely lose their meaning.

    As George Carlin so eloquently stated, “United, we’re fucked.”

  16. Elf Eye says

    Reginald, it’s West Virginia State Board of Ed v Barnette. See # 13 above.

  17. BobC says

    The idiotic “one nation under god” makes it a prayer. I thought praying is not allowed in public schools.

  18. says

    This is why I say nationalism is in effect a religion. These students got off light compared to many heretics of the past.

    I for one couldn’t care less about the “under God” part; I don’t want the pledge said AT ALL. Nationalistic indoctrination should NOT be a part of the curriculum.

  19. says

    Thinking about this for a while has dredged up some memories from my past. At the school where I attended first grade, there was a thing called “morning assembly” where, in addition to the pledge, we had to listen to that awful Lee Greenwood song (called “Proud to be an American” or something…I’ve repressed the memories). Every single day. And this was in New York State, where I expect some degree of safety from such things. It was so bad that my parents pulled me out and homeschooled me for the rest of the year, and we moved away once the school year was finished.

    Also, on the topic of removing “under God” from the pledge; I actually live about 10 miles from the hometown of the guy who wrote the pledge. Back when there was that push to remove the offensive words a couple of years ago, there was a group supporting the movement, claiming that adding “under God” was an insult to “their” citizen. Not really important, just kind of amusing.

  20. mayhempix says

    18.5% think the punishment should have been more severe?
    Perhaps they want to chop off the hands that should have been placed over the hearts.

    In junior high I would stand and recite the pledge but leave out “God”.
    As a freshman in high school I would still stand but not recite the pledge.
    By the the time I was a junior I quit standing.
    An honor student at the top of my class, I was denied my gold tassel at graduation
    as a punishment for antisocial behavior.

    Maybe I should do a movie and call it “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed”.

  21. says

    How dare these children fail to stand!
    This is the great and sacred Land
    Of Freedom; They should all be sent
    To prison as their punishment!
    Good, decent folk, like you and me
    Display our love of liberty
    By joining in the chanting crowd
    To pledge allegiance right out loud;
    To fail to join the droning throng
    Is unAmerican, and wrong!
    These kids, these traitors to the flag
    Just make me sick! They make me gag!
    They should be whipped; they should be beaten,
    Their entrails taken out and eaten!
    They should be torn from limb to limb
    For this unpatriotic whim!
    This is my land! I have the right
    To make them buckle to my might,
    Conform to the majority
    And say the pledge along with me!

    America, the beautiful,
    Your citizens are dutiful,
    And constitutionality
    Comes second to morality;
    And if we trade democracy
    For out-and-out theocracy
    (It seems we are susceptible)
    That’s perfectly acceptable.

    While I’m in the majority
    Don’t question its authority.

    http://digitalcuttlefish.blogspot.com/2008/05/hang-bastards.html

  22. Brigit says

    I’ve refused to say the pledge or stand up for it since childhood and I stand up and remain silent for the national anthem. Thankfully, my teachers never wanted to cross my dad.

  23. Evan says

    I got detention in 8th grade for refusing to say the pledge, too. To my eternal regret, I caved, and stood for it for the rest of the year… partly, alas, because my parents didn’t have my back; they thought the school was right.

    That was about 1980. I wish 28 years had made more of a difference.

    I’d love to have that to do over again: I would have kept the fight going. I would’ve called in the ACLU, I would’ve called in the local press. But I was a kid, and didn’t know how to fight the system yet. I hope those kids stick to their guns.

  24. craig says

    “It’s a bit redundant, fortunately, since the forces of reason are already leading…”

    No, they aren’t. The three unreasonable options together still lead the one reasonable one.

  25. Peter Ashby says

    ‘Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel’ Samuel Johnson. So many seem to have forgotten this.

  26. says

    I can say that from my perspective as an outsider (not being of your fair nation), making children recite a pledge of allegiance seems rather… scary. If someone suggested doing such a thing round these parts (Sweden), they’d probably be regarded with near universal suspicion as some far-right kook.

  27. says

    we had to listen to that awful Lee Greenwood song (called “Proud to be an American” or something…I’ve repressed the memories

    Worse yet: it’s called “God Bless the USA”, making it doubly bad.

    I was proud to be an American
    ‘Til they took my rights from me
    Started wars they knew would never end
    And turned friends to enemies
    Now I stand before you and ask you, friend
    Will we let them win this day?
    How I miss the dreams that we once had
    Bring back the USA

  28. Laurel says

    This is insane!

    When the pledge, which I hadn’t been asked to recite since elementary school, was reintroduced in my Southern high school in the Reagan era, I just sat there, as I saw no purpose for a daily loyalty oath in a supposedly free country. Nobody cared. Nobody said word one to me.

  29. craig says

    “those students should be stoned at the local farmers market.”
    When I was a teenager, I was often stoned at the local farmer’s market.

  30. craig says

    ok well farmer’s market might be stretching it. But they were selling agricultural produce.

  31. says

    These sorts of things truly piss me off more than anything. It’s also a little scary that more than two thousand people said that the punishment should have been more severe.

  32. says

    Hey sorry to get off of the main topic. Which is stale anyway. Why dont you Scientific bloggers that have so much free time on you hands do something productive with your energies.

    Here is the deal, We have made the single most significant pre historic biological discovery in history. We have found multiple graveyards in Plesant View and North Ogden Utah, That contain mostly intact burial matrix configuations of extreemly evolved Large scale Hallettestoneion Seazoria dragons. Mostly intact examples, extinct 540 million years ago. Its all there skull, teeth, facial spikes, crown spikes, neck spikes, body spikes, large internal organs. Yes the organs have surrvied. The organs just cant get up and crawl out of the body. Almost the whole creature is present.

    These spectacular ancient sea creatures were frozen alive 540 million years ago that is why the burial matrix configureations are mostly intact

    What is it going to take to attract the attention of the scientific industry heavyweights. The true pre historic sea dragons are a done deal. Scientific fact. Not a single person on this planet could successfully disprove the Hallettestoneion Seazoria Discovery. And if you think you can step right up to the plate amd take you best shot.

    Lets see how how the scienists try to expain away the complex repeating bioloical structures. Just try to explain the repeating right and lefts (teeth and spike) geologicly. Hint your explanation cannot defy the laws of physics and logic. The reason that these specialized burial matrix configuations are in the exact configuations (Hallettestoneion Seazorias)of large scale exteemly evolved pre historic marine reptiles is because they are avanced pre historic marine reptiles. HELLO. Creation not formation. there is a big difference formation (geology) andcreation (biology). Rocks are not formed in right and lefts. Biology is crated in rights and lefts.

    Is there anyone out there that actually rolls up their sleves and does there homework. What about it computar jockeys. Institutionalized academics that are nothing more than walking text books stay away. We are looking for competant individuals that think with their brain not through a texbook. Pre historic biology does not get any more blatently obvious than the Hallettestoneion Seazoria Dragons.

    Sleezypeezee are you watching. go ahead take another crack at the Hallettestoneion Seazoria discovery. Hit me with best shot, fire away.

    The Hallettestoneion research project discovered 2 new graveyards on Antelope Island Utah in early april. and a number of new Hallettestoneions skulls with teeth were found. I am going to assign the name Sleezypeezee Seazoria to one of the Skulls

    If you can help advance the Hallettestoneion Seazoria dragon pre historic biological discovery of the true sea dragons then contact us. Excavations, reconstructions, human resourses, materials, equiptment require a huge investment in time, money and energy.

    Mike Hallett
    Hallettestoneion Scientific Research Project
    Kaysville Utah
    seazoria@gmail.com
    http://www.seazoria.com
    wwwhszoria.com

  33. redlegphi says

    When you consider that people responding with one of the first three answers all think that the students have done something wrong and are only disagreeing about the degree of punishment, us rational thinkers are actually behind. In short, go vote!

  34. snead says

    I was going to tell a story about how a friend of mine didn’t stand up for the national anthem at a Padres game and a little old lady smacked him upside the head, but sea dragons!

  35. Steve_C says

    The way the long haired guy sits on the rocks with his legs open is disturbing.

    The childlike drawings are so cute though.

  36. redlegphi says

    Because I”m bored and at work, I went and checked out the sea dragon website. I think my favorite part is the drawings that appear to have been done by a 10 year old with a fairly active imagination.

  37. Lynnai says

    I’m Canadian so I didn’t have to suffer through that… but I always did wonder why it was primarilly to the flag and the nation second practically as an after-thought. The American national anthem makes me giggle becuase agian it is about the flag (yes it has a few more layers then that but look at it with the reading comprehension of a grade schooler for a minute).

    America has made serrious peices of national identification not about the nation but about another piece of national identification, America’s national identity is a recursive feedback loop.

  38. craig says

    “Its all there skull, teeth, facial spikes, crown spikes, neck spikes, body spikes, large internal organ”

    No way I’m accepting these as legit unless you can clearly demonstrate that they have tops and bottoms and sides.

  39. craig says

    Not only do I NOT want to see Mike Hallett banned as a troll, I nominate him and his Sea Zorias to be our official mascot.

  40. Jorge666 says

    #39

    Trying to fight a battle of science without ammunition on your part seems to be very unfair to you. Wouldn’t you agree???

    Perhaps you should be chatting with Ed Conrad instead?

  41. Eddie Janssen says

    I think everybody would be best served if this pledge was taken at the breakfeast table.

  42. says

    Okay, after lurking about for ages, THIS is something that gets me off my furry rump! Looks like there’s a few folks out in that neck of the woods need to go back to Civics class.

    “If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citzens to confess by word or act their faith therein.”
    –Justice Jackson, West Virginia v. Barnette (1943)

    Many kudos to Ms. Williams for noting the name of the case! It saved me a headache whilst searching…(my last class in Civil Liberties was oh so many years ago, alas).

    And now…back to lurk mode! Keep up the good fight, everyone.

    The MadPanda (FCD)

  43. Nix says

    The silly dragon man said:

    Is there anyone out there that actually rolls up their sleves and does there homework. What about it computar jockeys. Institutionalized academics that are nothing more than walking text books stay away.

    i.e., ‘biologists stay away, I only want the clueless’?

    Well, I *am* a computer jockey, and all I can say is that the idea of a theropod, hell, the idea of something with a skull or with non-calcite eyes in the very early Cambrian is utterly ludicrous.

  44. says

    “Believing that only under God Almighty, to Whom we render all homage, do we Americans hold our vast Power, we shall guarantee to all persons absolute freedom of religious worship, provided, however, that no atheist, agnostic, believer in Black Magic, nor any Jew who shall refuse to swear allegiance to the New Testament, nor any person of any faith who refuses to take the Pledge to the Flag, shall be permitted to hold any public office or to practice as a teacher, professor, lawyer, judge, or as a physician, except in the category of Obstetrics.”

    –Sinclair Lewis, “It Can’t Happen Here”

  45. noncarborundum says

    The idiotic “one nation under god” makes it a prayer. I thought praying is not allowed in public schools.

    I demur. Prayer involves directly addressing God; this is, rather, a statement of religious belief. Which, of course, shouldn’t be allowed in school either, much less required.

  46. Christian Carlsson says

    Does anyone know if there’s any other democratic country which has a school ‘Pledge’?

  47. kat says

    i saw something like this in an episode of Good Times. the youngest son wouldnt stand because of the “one nation under god” part

    jehovah’s witnesses don’t stand for anything and no one bugs them

  48. Tom Taylor says

    It disgusts me to see how many people voted yes. America, fuck yeah!

    The land of the free, as long as its not unpatriotic.

  49. Bride of Shrek says

    Hauntedchippy @ #52

    Don’t get me started on those Duggar freaks. Quiverful families are firmly in the crosshairs of my anti-religo freak target.

    Nothing like having a mother who just continously gives birth, basicaly ignoring the child after it’s three months old, so she can concentrate on making another one, while she “assigns” the raising of that child to one of the older female children. The poor older girls are full-time looking after babies from around the age of 12. If you want to see some truly creepy photos check out their website. The way they make the girls dress ( and their hairstyles) is bizarre

  50. foxfire says

    @25:
    Cuttlefish reigns supreme,
    a veritable rhyme machine,
    with poem here and there,
    his way to declare
    that TARDish deserves no esteem.

    That poll can has my noes too!

  51. says

    I can’t believe how many people are voting some form of “yes” in this poll (and I would include the “they should have gotten a warning” option as a yes, since it still implies that the kids were doing something wrong).

    One day in middle school (I think it was sixth grade), we had a substitute teacher in my homeroom class, where the pledge was said. He took the opportunity to teach us about the history of the pledge (including the McCarthy era addition of “under God”), the West Virginia BoE v Barnette case, and about first ammendment freedoms in general. I think the significance of what he was trying to teach eluded most of us at the time, but I can only hope that some of my classmates still remember the lesson today.

  52. says

    Many on this blog have woken up, smelled the roses, and thrown off the chains of religion. You know – religion that tries to say we’re born into a faith because of our parents, etc. Yet so few question the arrogance of government – government which also says, as an accident of birth, that their laws apply to this person or that, and that so-and-so is an “American” and so-and-such is not.

    Pledge of allegiance, nicene creed – they’re all the same kind of bullshit. The priestly class and the political class have rigged the game and control the dialog. Throw off your shackles, people!

  53. BobbyEarle says

    I am surprised that the National Anthem hasn’t been mentioned. IMHO the NA falls (almost) into the same category as the pledge. The only difference, at least for me, is that the NA is kinda fun to sing. The “god shed his grace on thee” bit is a bit creaky, but heck, you can sing it with a 44oz beer in your hand.

  54. Josh in Philly says

    Uh, Bobby, I’m pretty sure “god shed his grace on thee” doesn’t appear in the U.S. National Anthem. The fourth stanza, in the course of assuring Americans that our country can never be defeated “when our cause it is just,” says “In God is our trust,” but nobody ever sings that far into the song.

  55. says

    @#66 Marcus Ranum —

    Pledge of allegiance, nicene creed – they’re all the same kind of bullshit.

    Yes — both public affirmations of a dogmatic belief. What’s interesting here is that the conditions Festinger laid out for the phenomenon of cognitive dissonance (in which, when faced by disconfirming evidence for one’s beliefs, a believer will often react by expressing those beliefs even more strongly) are:

    1. There must be a firm conviction.
    2. There must be public commitment to this conviction.
    3. The conviction must be amenable to unequivocal
    disconfirmation.
    4. Such unequivocal disconfirmation must occur.
    5. Social support must be available to the believer subsequent to the disconfirmation.

    (Emphasis mine.)

    So growing up, kids might not understand what it means to say “I pledge allegiance…” or “I believe in one God, the Father Almighty…” but without realizing it, they are, through public commitment, cementing beliefs that they will accept unquestioningly when they get older, and whose disconfirmation they will likely fight against through stronger and more dogmatic belief.

    Or to quote scripture: In the beginning was the Word…

  56. says

    (applauds the poetic Cuttlefish)

    (bows politely to Ms. Williams)

    Three cheers for your substitute teacher! I, alas, had no such help. My revenge has been to omit the two little words that Eisenhower added in ever since seventh grade.

    And now I’m going to go reread that chapter in Catch-22 about the Great Loyalty Oath Crusade, mentioned recently around here to great effect.

    “Give everybody eat!”

    The MadPanda (FCD)

  57. Master Mahan says

    This story is a complete outrage. Three students refuse to stand to pledge Our Flag, and they receive a suspension? Clearly corporal punishment is the only answer: beat the love of The Lord into those little Atheofacists. I’d order my children to deliver the beatings themselves if I didn’t home-school them.

  58. says

    Christian: I know of no other western country that has such a pledge. There are citizenship pledges for foreigners and oaths of office, but of course we have those, too.

    Pledges hearken back to the days of feudalism, when the serfs swore loyalty oaths to their lords.

    Marcus: VERY well said. Unfortunately, I’ve seen a lot of skeptics just turn it off when they enter the political arena. But political dogmas can be just as dangerous if not moreso than religious dogmas.

  59. Ray C. says

    Haul down Old Glory and run up a different banner in its place, and the USA is still the same country. Tear up the Constitution and write a different one, and the USA is a fundamentally different place. Yet for some reason we’re supposed to do obeisance to the flag. Barack Who’s Sane Obama might do well to put a “bill of rights pin” on his lapel where the goose-steppers want him to wear a flag.

    Would the goose-steppers get such a hard-on for the Pledge if they knew it was written by a pinko bleeding-heart SOOOOOOOOCIALIST?

  60. Curious says

    I know there were citizens of other countries in my high school, and I assume that applies in U.S. schools as well. We had exchange students and there are families of consular officials, as well.

    To such people, such a pledge would be offensive to their citizenship.

    Although this ritual seems ridiculous even for wholly american students, let us pass that by, and ask what the policy is for a student who clearly and officially does not have any “allegiance to the flag”?

  61. says

    For all you lulz-seeking scripters out there, the link on my name will add votes to the poll. Not that I condone using it multiple times, of course. ;^) (It’s best suited for wget or similar, because you don’t want to save the cookie returned, and it’s set up to redirect to localhost (which of course fails, unless you’re running a local webserver; and an ordinary web browser then will probably try to prepend www. to the URL, which you don’t want).)

  62. John C. Randolph says

    FWIW, the pledge isn’t just a McCarthyite relic. Note the language “one nation, indivisible”. That’s an anti-secessionist loyalty oath.

    -jcr

  63. John C. Randolph says

    Incidentally, I would guess that the real reason why these kids were punished had nothing to do with the pledge, but simply the fact that they refused to “respek mah authoritah!” when the teacher or principal demanded that they do so.

    I remember getting a “rights and responsiblities” pamphlet when I was in high school in Fairfax County, VA, and one of the “infractions” listed in it was (no shit) Insubordination!

    -jcr

  64. Fatima says

    I got in trouble numerous times for sitting out on the pledge when I was jr. high and high school. One teacher told me I didn’t have to say the pledge, but I damn well better stand up for it.

  65. Chironex says

    Augh, this makes me sick.

    The pledge of allegiance isn’t some sort of compulsory oath that we all must mutter mindlessly, as if we were in some kind of suppressive, autocratic society. Rather, the pledge is an option. It is a way to give respect to one’s country when he/she believes respect is due. (I certainly do not believe it is due now.) And, until the buzzkill phrase “Under God” is removed from the very pledge, I will not maintain full respect for America. These two words alienate every Atheist, Buddhist, Hindu, etc., and insist that “if you want to get away with not having God, you’re in the wrong place”.

    The thing that bothers me, though, is that the government is the one behind the pledge. It seems like it’s their wa of demanding our appreciation. Once W is out of power, Obama (not McCain!) is elected, and MAJOR changes take place, I will most predictably have a greater respect for America than I do now. However, this does not mean I will start saying the controlled, uncreative pledge. I can show my respect for my future liberal nation by hanging a flag, or whatnot. (I’ll probably be able to get one cheap from a Bush supporter. They won’t need it :D ) And because of this lack of creativity and spontaneity, saying the pledge along with a class of mindless automatons doesn’t mean you’re paying respect to your country. It means you’re adhering to a group. Face it: Saying the pledge means absolutely NOTHING. If you really want to show your ill-founded love for the nation, use your car’s bumper, or your front lawn.

    In my homeroom at high school, the pledge is always said over the announcements. However, few stand up for it, let alone say it. When the announcers are saying the pledge, my butt is in my seat. And I stand by it.

    Currently, I’d approximate that how high your head is during the pledge is directly proportional to how conservative you are.

    In closing, thank the random genetic selections in the meiosis that brought me to life I’m short.

  66. TheWireMonkey says

    I stopped reciting the pledge when I was in six or seventh grade. We had daily “please stand for the pledge of allegiance, our national anthem and a moment of silence.” I never really knew what the moment of silence was supposed to be for because nobody ever suggested that it was for prayer. I kind of liked that part of it, because my seat was next to the window and I could watch the birds, but I digress…

    My mom got a call from one teacher who wanted to know why I wouldn’t say the pledge. She was unaware that I had stopped saying it, and asked me why. I told her I thought it was stupid to pledge allegiance to a flag or a country or anything. I was born here by accident. I could just as easily have been born in The Soviet Union(our big enemies at the time…remember when?) or Canada for that matter. My allegiance was to my family, my friends and my conscience. She agreed and passed this on to the school. Nobody bothered me about it again, but I grew up in a pretty liberal town.

  67. chancelikely says

    At the public schools I went to the Pledge had not been said for years. But one day in third grade we had a substitute from the old school, who still thought it was on the agenda. She knew me, slightly (I think she was a friend of my aunt’s or something) and so asked me to lead the pledge.

    I refused, which surprised me a little. There was some argument back and forth, and the sub finally decided I was a Jehovah’s Witness or whoever it was that didn’t say the Pledge (she admitted she didn’t know) and I got out of it. She even let me sit for the recital.

    It took me a long time to figure out why I had done it. But in church some time later we were having communion and I recognized what it was. I don’t like making promises I don’t understand. I was able to figure out that both the Pledge and communion were in the form of a promise (and a promise to a non-corporeal thing, ultimately, with no listed penalty). Fortunately I was in a sufficiently understanding community that it all passed without incident. I’m proud of the nine-year-old me, but I often wonder how quickly I would have caved in the face of any real opposition.

  68. Chironex says

    That’s quite an interesting story :)

    I like how you think of the pledge as a sort of promise. By saying the pledge, you’re promising to love your country and be a good citizen in a way. But what if you find yourself unable to love your country?

    Exactly.

  69. MPW says

    Looks like the poll has swung hard and fast since the OP – it’s overwhelmingly (like, eight-something percent) in favor of the suspended students now. Are there enough Pharyngulites to shift it like that, or has it been getting poll-bombed from other liberal blogs?

    Of course, the comment section there is fairly appalling, just judging from a brief glance. This comment is quite telling, and worth quoting in its entirety to give the flavor of its bizarre hysteria:

    This is not a First Ammendment issue! It’s about teaching our youth to do as is expected of them. To follow the simple rules of society. We expect them to go to school, do their homework, aspire to get acceptable grades. We should not be instilling in them they have no responsibilities. We should expect them to become PRODUCTIVE members of society, not teach them to rebel against any rule they don’t want to abide by. We expect them to someday go to work and not take a day off if the sun is out and it’s a nice beach day. We should expect them to put an effort into contributing to the greater good of society, not tearing it down because it’s their “right” to rebel.

    So there it is, openly admitted – this is about instilling the value of unquestioning obedience. Dissenting from the orders of governmental superiors, or questioning the rituals of the group you’re in, even the most minor, is a selfish abdication of societal responsibility and tantamount to an attempt to tear down society.

    And has this person really never taken the day off because the sun is out and it’s a nice beach day? Ugh, what a drone.

  70. Flamethorn says

    “No, they should not be required to stand” is at 85.3%, or 47914.

    Disturbingly, 2877 people think the punishment should have been more severe. What, should they have been flogged? Expelled?

  71. PsiWavefunction says

    Had I not left for Canada after grade 6, this could have easily been me. I recall I actually stopped saying the pledge by then. As a Russian citizen ‘in transit’ (ie willing to move to some other country if opportunity calls), I didn’t understand why I had to swear loyalty to some flag in the corner of the room, a flag of a country I just happened to be in at the moment. Then I realised it was a bunch of bullshit. Knowing my defiant inner nature, most likely I would have risen some sort of hell over this and ended up in trouble.

    I guess what saved me from indoctrination was the stark difference between home and school for me, starting with the language and ending with religious and political views. For the longest time I couldn’t understand why being Russian and atheist was evil in one language, but good in another! I think this exposure to what was practically two completely opposite worldviews taught me to analyse them and think before accepting knowledge. My brain was overloaded with conflicting data, so it learned rather early the ability to pick and choose.

    Thus, a non-anti-communist Russian atheist was able to resist American assimilation. I think I owe that one to my parents!

    Canada is awesome – no one expects you to worship the flag or beavers or anything because the locals tend to be vastly outnumbered in any place of importance. You can travel the world without ever having to fly! =D

    On a more serious note, I think what saves Canada is this constant influx of diverse ideas from around the world – which are allowed to coexist rather than being forced to blend in right away. This boosts the memetic diversity and creates a healthier meme pool. Note difference between San Francisco and Midwest – SF has vastly more immigration to help keep ideas fresh and stirred up. However, even there the American substate still shows, as I learned when I was a kid.

  72. PsiWavefunction says

    Had I not left for Canada after grade 6, this could have easily been me. I recall I actually stopped saying the pledge by then. As a Russian citizen ‘in transit’ (ie willing to move to some other country if opportunity calls), I didn’t understand why I had to swear loyalty to some flag in the corner of the room, a flag of a country I just happened to be in at the moment. Then I realised it was a bunch of bullshit. Knowing my foolishly defiant inner nature, most likely I would have risen some sort of hell over this and ended up in trouble.

    I guess what saved me from indoctrination was the stark difference between home and school for me, starting with the language and ending with religious and political views. For the longest time I couldn’t understand why being Russian and atheist was evil in one language, but good in another! I think this exposure to what was practically two completely opposite worldviews taught me to analyse them and think before accepting knowledge. My brain was overloaded with conflicting data, so it learned rather early the ability to pick and choose.

    Thus, a non-anti-communist Russian atheist was able to resist American assimilation. I think I owe that one to my parents!

    Canada is awesome – no one expects you to worship the flag or beavers or anything because the locals tend to be vastly outnumbered in any place of importance. You can travel the world without ever having to fly! =D

    On a more serious note, I think what saves Canada is this constant influx of diverse ideas from around the world – which are allowed to coexist rather than being forced to blend in right away. This boosts the memetic diversity and creates a healthier meme pool. Note difference between San Francisco and Midwest – SF has vastly more immigration to help keep ideas fresh and stirred up. However, even there the American substate still shows, as I learned when I was a kid.

    -Yana-

  73. PsiWavefunction says

    Sorry for double post I thought my internet was acting up again…

  74. shane says

    Canada is awesome – no one expects you to worship the flag or beavers

    I worship beavers. Your mileage may vary.

  75. PoxyHowzes says

    Allegiance was not pledged, of course,
    When General George sat on his horse,
    Or stood up in the boat that night
    The hapless Hessians for to fight.

    Nor did we stand and pledge back when
    “Who gives up liberty,” said Ben,
    “To gain security will see
    “That he is neither safe nor free.”

    Young Tom, (who liked a pretty wench,
    Our liberty, and all things French)
    Eschewed all oaths of loyalty
    In Declarations brave and free.

    And James, who in high reason’s lights,
    Fought hard to pass the Bill of Rights,
    Would say those rights are violate
    If loyalty’s forced by the state.

    The Founders’ time, it was, some say,
    Our country’s grand and glorious day!
    We were more moral they allege,
    Back then. (Before we had our pledge.)

  76. Liesele says

    Growing up in Thunder Bay, Ontario (supposedly an urban area, except for the black bears on the schoolyard and so on) I was one of two children in my primary school sent out in the hall every morning to stand outside the classroom door as the teacher read bible verses. This was a public school. We two lived in fear every day that the principal would come and see us there in the position otherwise reserved for the worst behavioral offenders and refuse to listen to our explanation that we were just waiting to return to the classrooms when the teachers had ended the bible portion of the day’s instruction.
    Don’t get me started on what we sang in school during December. I remember the words to many xmas carols better than I know “Oh, Canada” to this very day.

  77. says

    Here’s what our nearby Wisconsin law says about it. “Wis. Stat. 118.06 Flag, pledge of allegiance, and national anthem. 118.06(1) Every school board and the governing body of every private school shall cause the U.S. flag to be displayed in the schoolroom or from a flagstaff on each school ground during the school hours of each school day. 118.06(2) Every public school shall offer the pledge of allegiance or the national anthem in grades one to 12 each school day. Every private school shall offer the pledge of allegiance or the national anthem in grades one to 12 each school day unless the governing body of the private school determines that the requirement conflicts with the school’s religious doctrines. No pupil may be compelled, against the pupil’s objections or those of the pupil’s parents or guardian, to recite the pledge or to sing the anthem.”

    Yes, it means school kids don’t even need to say the Pledge. A kid can decide what they want to do. They can’t even be asked to or required to stand up for it. They can’t be asked to place their hand over their heart. If a teacher does any of these things, they’re going against State law. Of course, a kid can’t be disruptive during the Pledge, just as they can’t misbehave at any other time.

    There’s even been recent controversy regarding which language is used to recite the Pledge. In an Edgerton high school, the kids from the Spanish class read the Pledge in Spanish during the morning announcements, and it led to veterans complaining to the school board.

  78. says

    @67

    Bobby, you’ve confused “America the Beautiful” with the phrase “God shed His grace on thee” with the national anthem, “The Star Spangled Banner.” I will say, though, that I’d rather the former (without God) were our anthem. The “Banner” is a pain to sing.