Fresh from his recent reappearance on KKMS, where he debated me with a new strategy which gave him a slight chance of winning (i.e., one in which I was not present), Geoffrey Simmons is now crowing victory. It’s very strange. Why would anyone with any sense think that demanding a ‘debate’ in which one is unopposed and has a sympathetic moderator and which suppresses audience input is in any way anything but an act of cowardice and intellectual bankruptcy?
This is posted on Evolution News and Views, the Discovery Institute’s version of Pravda, but since they don’t bother to link to any of my articles to which they specifically refer, and since they don’t take comments themselves, I see no point in linking to them. Here is the complete text of Simmons’ vainglorious howl of triumph.
Against Stupidity, God Himself Is Helpless – Old Jewish Proverb
Before the recent KKMS (MN radio) debate, Dr. P.Z. Myers blogged on Pharyngula that he would decimate me. Within minutes of the show’s conclusion, he blogged that he accomplished his goal, never conceding a single point from an hour long show. It is worth one’s while to read his blogs and those that follow as they readily speak to the character of these folks, much moreso than I could ever do. Richard Dawkins was also quick to compliment the professor and add to the feeding frenzy. Again, no concessions. They had their hearing aids turned off before the show even started.
Other than winning points for outright rudeness and making up fiction, what part of the debate did this tax-paid professor win? Could it be the five or so fossil pieces from dog-size animals that represent intermediate species between land animals and the quadrillion-cell whale with unexplained tons of blubber, communication skills that span thousands of miles, a windpipe separate from the esophagus (unheard of in land animals), segmental decompression, a heart the size of a Volkswagon, ability to dive thousands of meters deep or eat a krill diet? Or, was it the fact that a sperm and egg cell can unite to form a 10-75 trillion cell human being without going through 10-75 trillion trial and errors? Perhaps it was my misunderstanding of their ways of critiquing the theory of evolution? To me, it’s like having your brother correct your homework. Lastly, where is the rule that says one has to have an alternative and provable explanation for the origin of life before one can criticise Darwinian thought? Cannot a child point to the leaks in a dam and warn people of an impending flood without any knowledge about dam construction? Their rule, this requirement, doesn’t exist.
– Geoffrey Simmons, M.D.
Author of What Darwin Didn’t Know and Billions of Missing Links
So much, so wrong.
We all had our hearing aids turned up, I assure you. How else could we laugh at Dr Simmons’ remarks?
For a perfect example, look at his claims here: he claims the whale fossil series consists of “five or so fossil pieces from dog-size animals”. Go ahead, look at any summary of the fossil evidence for whales; there are far more than 5 pieces, and the size of the animals ranged from a 100 pound deer-like beast to, well, whale-sized. You can also find nice diagrams of nasal drift — remember, Simmons claimed there was no evidence of blowholes in the fossils. There were no concessions to Simmons because Simmons was wrong on every point.
I’ve read his books, and as usual, he resorts to the litany of complexity to make his case. He doesn’t stop to consider how all that complexity arose, just its existence is all he uses to claim justification for his claim of Intelligent Design creationism. That doesn’t fly, Dr Simmons. We have mechanisms that generate such complexity and refine noise into functionality that do not require intelligent intervention. Sure, single-celled zygotes develop into organisms with many trillions of cells. We can study that and find lovely developmental mechanisms behind it; we can watch mitoses occur; we can find the molecular interactions that lead to differentiation. Telling me that there are lots of cells there does not support your apparent contention that they all poofed into existence with the assistance of a meddling cosmic superbeing, either phylogenetically or ontogenetically.
Oh, and little children who call up the National Guard and demand that we evacuate the town because the dam is leaking when they’ve never seen the dam, know nothing about how the dam is constructed, and have no evidence that it is leaking other than that the crotch of their pants are suddenly wet, are not brave heroes. They’re petty liars seeking attention.
Hollow man, speaking hollow words about a sterile idea.
You can criticize Darwinian ideas as much as you like, but if you have nothing that leads to thought, research, and explanation, what is the point?
We criticize evolution in order to come up with something better. You criticize evolution because you hate it’s very success at providing explanation and furthering science.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
how many trial and errors *does* it take to get to the tootsie-roll center of a tootsie-pop?
Or, was it the fact that a sperm and egg cell can unite to form a 10-75 trillion cell human being without going through 10-75 trillion trial and errors?
So Dr Simmons says God makes people from sperm; evolution can make true because how can sperm turn into babies without God sending His angels to mold the sperm like clay in the mother’s womb. That’s so wonderfully medieval in its’ thinking.
Lastly, where is the rule that says one has to have an alternative and provable explanation for the origin of life before one can criticise Darwinian thought?
So Simmons is saying ID is not an alternative explanation to evolution?
owww, tat studip hurts badly. owww.
Simmons is just pathetic. Notice how all his whale complexity points either involve soft tissue which doesn’t fossilize (blubber, esophagus, heart) or they’re behavioral (diving ability, communication). I guess he hopes this will make his points unassailable by those pesky fossils that he knows nothing about.
even the title of his screed is incorrect. I believe he meant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gods_Themselves
“Again, no concessions.”
And if PZ had made a single concession, even on the least significant of points, Doctor* Simmons would have crowed, “Even the dogmatic Darwinist Myers conceeded that…”.
*I use the title “doctor” here with reservations, much as when referring to Drs. Dre, Zeus, John, or J.
Simmons needs those little children to correct *his* homework. Then they can stick their finger in his complex specified blowhole.
Note how he goes from the 4 or 5 examples of “Pakicetus, Ambulocetus, Rhodcetus, Basilosaurus, etc” that you offered, to saying that 4 or 5 fossils are all that there are (in the audio), to saying “five or so pieces“.
Just for the hell of it, I Googled whale phylogeny:
http://www.archaeocete.org/Archaeocete%20Taxonomy.html
http://www.archaeocete.org/Barnes%20PhylogenySuborder3.jpg
Four or five, huh?
@#6 –well what about that? “…God himself is helpless?” How can it be that the powers of an omnipotent deity could be so thoroughly thwarted by this all too common human flaw? Oh yeah, I forgot: ‘free will’.
There are indeed some willfully stupid people in this scenario, but Simmons obviously doesn’t realize he’s one of them.
Good grief! The DI can’t even quote and attribute correctly.
“Mit der Dummheit kämpfen die Götter selbst vergebens”
– Friedrich Schiller’s play “Jungfrau von Orleans” in 1801.
English Translation:
“Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.”
(English translation available from Project Gutenberg.)
-Richard
He actually sort-of concedes that. He’s not saying that ID is an explanation. He’s just contra-Darwin.
Ya-huh.
It is truly perplexing to the thinking mind how someone can be so inane. Sadly, I’ve know too many physicians like Simmons. Remember the “new” trend is evidenced based medicine (or fairly new). Apparently he disdains that as well. I apologize for the language ’cause it is so ingrained in common usage that even I can’t seem to get away from it. God help his patients.
What on Earth was the ” tax-paid Professor” comment relevant to? The insuation being, I presume, that because your salary is government funded that you should shut up and toe a more discreet line? Shutting government employees up is a strategy thats worked well throughout history in many countries like, um, Uganda, North Korea.
So sad to have wasted a perfectly good medical degree on such a twat.
Hearing aid = hearing aid designer.
Thing is, he knows he lost. It’s kind of sad, in a way. Kind of. He has a front to keep up, I suppose, so that even if he is slaughtered in a debate it is better to pretend victory rather than slouch about round-shouldered like.
Not only does he know he lost, but so does everyone who heard the debate. His is a lonely place. But he’s gotta sell his books, eh?
Debate him again… please… this time don’t let him leave until he’s surrendered…
Good grief! The DI can’t even quote and attribute correctly.
Well, of course not. If they were good researchers, they’d be evolutionists.
Credit where credit is due: the phrase “five or so fossil pieces from dog-size animals” is pretty damn funny all by itself.
I hope in the future Mr. Simmons finds a complete lack of respect from any parties forced to speak with him. Anyone so trapped should promptly call him out on his interpretation of the debate and make him answer his ridiculous claims of “five or so fossil pieces from dog-size animals”, etc.
Does this idiot really believe god directs the development of each fetus in the womb? There is a whole field that figured this out, developmental biology.
It god is needed for humans, he is needed for all metazoans, cockroaches, flies, nematodes, sponges, trees and so on. I don’t know how many living entities are on earth at any given time, must be trillions or quadrillions at least.
You’d think god would get bored of supervising the egg morphogenesis and metamorphosis of billions of ants and cockroaches, not to mention the other 80 million of so species.
Maybe Simmons is just nuts.
I’m finding it hard to believe he is really an MD. How old is he? Must have gotten his MD in the stone age or from a bible college or something.
One wonders if Simmons is similary incredulous of, e.g., the size of the sun.
“100 times bigger than earth?!? Let’s be serious. Anyone can see it’s no bigger than the moon.”
Shutting government employees up is a strategy thats worked well throughout history in many countries like, um, Uganda, North Korea.
It’s not unknown in the US as well. Remember the exhibit on the Enola Gay at the Smithsonian that caused so much controversy? The curator was fired and all projects he was involved with terminated. And Bush made a couple of not-so-veiled threats against scientists who dared support his opponents. But this sort of thing is generally considered to be a problem, rather than a solution, in the US.
You’d think god would get bored of supervising the egg morphogenesis and metamorphosis of billions of ants and cockroaches
He does. That’s when he supervises a cheetah tearing out the beating heart of an antelope.
“Cannot a child point to the leaks in a dam and warn people of an impending flood without any knowledge about dam construction?”
Well, yes, they can. But there is nothing constructive in a child pointing to the outflow torrent of a hydroelectric dam and jumping up and down, screaming “I TOLD YOU! I TOLD YOU IT’S BROKEN!”
Then when adults try to calm the child, tell him he doesn’t understand, he crams his fingers in his ears and bites and kicks at the adults.
Hmmmm… perhaps there’s more to his analogy than we thought.
“Cannot a child point to the leaks in a dam and warn people of an impending flood without any knowledge about dam construction?”
Love the 19th century syntax.
PZ, I recommend taking your hour of uninterrupted time on KKMS and reciting the names and details of whale fossils for fifty minutes, in effect hanging Simmons with his own rope. For your closing argument, say something to the effect of, “And that’s just one way in which Geoffrey is wrong. Tune in tomorrow when I spend an hour describing the similarities between the chimpanzee brain and the human brain. Next week I’ll be covering….”
We need to take one of these shitheads and make an example of them. Beat them so severely and tenaciously with their own arguments until they are a shivering, quivering wreck of a human being so thoroughly shattered that they’ll run screaming in fear the next time they’re approached for the time of day at a bus stop, let alone another debate with a scientist.
And then we get mean.
Lastly, where is the rule that says one has to have an alternative and provable explanation for the origin of life before one can criticise Darwinian thought
Lastly, where is the rule that says one has to have an alternative and provable explanation for the origin of raisins before one can criticize the theory of dessication?
Yeah, did you realize, Simmons, that tax-paid forensics labs actually infer common ancestry from DNA comparisons for court cases? And that tax-paid judges agree to use that sort of evidence in court cases?
I guess the tax paid people ought to be inferring magic from similarities, according to you, Simmons. That way we can go back to burning witches, since they’re the cause of similarities between black cats and humans, and all of those LOLcats pictures.
You’d be willing to be burnt as a witch to advance ID, wouldn’t you Simmons?
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
I’m finding it hard to believe he is really an MD.
Unfortunately, I’m not so incredulous. Many MDs have no concept of how science works.
Poor Simmons. That hole in his head must not be properly sealed with mucus.
His level of willful ignorance must require constant, daily effort. The kind of effort that a normal person would only exert during, say, extreme constipation. We all deal with that pretty often, though. On account of all that mucus.
Are you sure? I thought he spent his coffee breaks supervising drug resistant malaria, TB, and HIV, and inventing new species of tapeworms.
PZ, I’m surprised you didn’t pile onto this bit–confusing the theory of evolution for a theory of the origin of life itself is a depressingly common rookie move. It would be a lot easier to take any of these folks who are desperately trying to accrue the least bit of credibility seriously if they didn’t keep making the sort of claims about evolutionary theory that anyone who’s skimmed the ICC wouldn’t make. It’s not even a debatable point–evolutionary theory is not and has never been a theory of the origin of life. Sheesh.
And you’re left wondering if you wasted your time there, as he’s going to go off and tell everyone how right he was in any case. Perhaps you should debate in a clown suit next time, to avoid imparting any sheen of legitimacy.
To be fair to Dr. Simmons, for whom I have spared few kind words thus far, I’ve seen “Against stupidity; God Himself is helpless” in several compilations of Jewish proverbs. I imagine this proverb prefigures Shiller’s usage by quite a few centuries. (I imagine it, but I can’t prove it at the moment.)
BTW, you nay-sayers! Whales are dog-sized, for a given definition of “dog”.
I thought he spent his coffee breaks supervising drug resistant malaria, TB, and HIV, and inventing new species of tapeworms.
God watches YouPorn videos on his coffee breaks.
“lastly, where is the rule that says one has to have an alternative and provable explanation for the origin of life before one can criticise Darwinian thought”
It’s called the scientific method. The rules are there. What Simmons does is not science. No,a family practice or ob-gyn clinic is not practicing science. It’s squeezing insurance companies. I would bet the majority of his patients are Medicare/Medicaid, how would that make him any different from those of us who earn our livings teaching in higher ed? He doesn’t even need to do good medicine. He can take 5 minutes per patient, ten if their 8-9 months along, then pawn them off on his nurse practicioner or PA. In fact he doesn’t even need to see them at all if he has those.
Whales are dog-sized, for a given definition of “dog”.
Kseniya is, as always, correct. Here is the source for her assertion.
“Buh…buh…but he was so MEAN! And whales are like, really BIG! I read about ’em in Scientific American! *insert those mewling noises that Joel Hodgson did for Arch Hall Jr.’s voice in Eegah!*”
But remember, we must always argue politely and substantially with these buttholes, from the wisest professor on down to the lowliest blog commenter.
I’ve come to the conclusion, by the way, that Dr. Simmons’ brain is sealed with mucous.
Can someone who knows anatomy better than I do tell me if my windpipe is separate from my esophagus? And am I a land animal?
I still find it funny how the topic got changed because he, a doctor, required it. PZ is simply a tax-paid professor, his opinions don’t count as much as those of a doctor. Given how one of them seems to have rejected modern medicine I’m surprised that they are in such awe of that title.
“Against Stupidity, God Himself Is Helpless.”
Stupidity, thy name is Simmons.
“Against Stupidity, God Himself Is Helpless.”
Stupidity, thy name is Simmons.
And that tells you what you need to know. To him, it doesn’t matter that you criticized his arguments on the grounds that the factswholly and completely contradicted him, but rather that he thought you, and apparently Richard Dawkins, are just not very nice people. What he still fails to grasp is that even if you were a giant prick in the debate, it doesn’t change for one second the truthfulness of anything you said concerining his ignorance of the fossil record and, more importantly, the conclusions he’s drawing from his inaccurate conception of the fossil record.
I honestly don’t understand how these people’s minds work. Someone shows you that you’re wrong and you close your eyes and ears and say, “well, that wasn’t very nice of you. So you’re wrong.”
Great catch, Wicked Lad, I just skimmed by that stuff figuring that it at least at a second grade level of science knowledge. If this guy’s field was either gastroenterology or pulmonology I can understand why this guy is probably no longer practicing medicine!
I don’t think this guy really even believes what he says. He can’t possibly be THAT stupid, can he? He’s probably just stubborn and doesn’t want to look bad to the other IDiots.
Oooh… he really got your there, PZ. Working for a school that receives government funding makes you extra eeeeeevil.
Or, was it the fact that a sperm and egg cell can unite to form a 10-75 trillion cell human being without going through 10-75 trillion trial and errors?
Does he think humans evolve from single celled organisms in the womb???!? Over and over again?? WTF
Wow, that made me laugh.
I would have laughed too if “crotch” weren’t singular and “are” plural. It’s a curse, I tell you.
Gotta marvel the gall. You! Evil professors who try to figure out how things work from the simplest unit to the most complex system! You lie to us with your experiements, your results and your inquisition!
Any conscious, thinking person can see that these complexities are best explained by unseen, unknown, unknowable, non-involved entities without finitie form possessing infinite power!
Not sure he noticed his argument was dumber than he could have possibly imagined. It’s not likely he did because he continues to profer it with abandon.
Re: trachea vs. esophagus. Again, to be fair, I think it’s pretty clear that he means “completely separate” – you know, like how our PERFECTLY DESIGNED trachea and esophagus SHOULD be. **snarkle**
We have perfect binocular vision, mouths below our noses, no eyes in our feet, reproductive systems that usually work, and we can choke to death on a grape.
How divine!
Brownian (#26), I like your style. IDCers are always going on about how mean we are. What they don’t seem to realise is that we’ve actually been pulling our punches. Time for the gloves to come off.
Re: Tax-paid.
Another revealing choice. As I wrote on the “amused” thread, what place does the politics of resentment have in this debate?
Brownian: You know me too well. ;-)
Such bold faced lies are what I’ve come to expect from the IDiots.
His arguments are so insane, it makes one wonder if Dr. Simmons is on drugs. Not a far fetched possibility considering an MD’s access to meds. If he were, at least he would have that as an excuse.
I cannot imagine the embarassment I would feel if i presented arguements like Dr. Simmons to even my close friends.
Dr. Simmons should just go home, check kids for ear wax, and forget he though he knew anything about god, creations, morality, or even a tiny aspect of evoltuion.
Can someone who knows anatomy better than I do tell me if my windpipe is separate from my esophagus? And am I a land animal?
I read that too, and thought, what a profoundly stupid assertion to make.
Stupid rarely knows when to shut up in the presence of wisdom.
This guy’s an MD? Truly a frightening prospect. I think he’s mistaking a windpipe for that hole in his ass he uses for “debating.”
@#50:…and we can choke to death on a grape.How divine!
Yes! Unlike most other mammels and even human babies where the crossover occurs where it would be virtually impossible to get food “down the wrong pipe”. Seems like a perfectly designed way to enable speech to me!
Not.
There is really nothing about human anatomy that seems very well designed, it is all one huge mind bottling kluge. (yes I said “bottling”)
@Brownian #26:
Couldn’t agree more! No quarter for this foolishness!
PZ, you can’t let this guy even pretend to retain any credibility. Make him an example to other “poor students”.
I think you should keep on him until he either overtly admits that he’s an idiot or, at least, slinks away in tacit admission.
Don’t let up!
Chris
And speaking of dog-size cetaceans…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaquita
Yes, but can’t you see that we are perfectly designed for the Heimlich maneuver, and, therefore, we have the Heimlich maneuver?
Or…something like that…Praise Jesus!!
#54 Be fair to the good doctor, he didn’t get the bit about whale throats wrong. Irrelevant perhaps, but cetacean trachea and esophagus are completely separated. So no chance of choking, but no opportunity to pant.
To those like Geoffrey Simmons who find problems with TOE and fail to offer any viable, realisitic answers of their own,I would suggest this.
If you do not like the theory of evolution,earn a PhD in Biology, gather evidence for the alternative theory of your choice and convince other scientists of your ideas. When your theory gains acceptance among the scientific community, then and only then, will we be convinced.
Until then keep your mindless rantings to your self or show us some real evidence.
“Cannot a child point to the leaks in a dam and warn people of an impending flood without any knowledge about dam construction?”
It’s funny Simmons should say that, because he inadvertently stumbled onto a wonderful analogy. When people go on tours of the Hoover Dam, they often express concern over water in the tunnels. It is pointed out (by dam experts) that those “leaks” are normal seepage, and nothing to be worried about. Geoffrey Simmons is the child who screams that those leaks warn of impending flood, because he didn’t pay attention to the dam tour guide. Perhaps if he knew something about dams, he wouldn’t cause a panic.
“Lastly, where is the rule that says one has to have an alternative and provable explanation for the origin of life before one can criticise Darwinian thought?”
I’ll echo what some others have said. Usually the scientific attitude toward unsolved problems is that we look for solutions, not throw up our hands and say “God did it!”. The latter would be much like computer scientists proving P != NP by saying “just because.”
It’s pretty easy to heap scorn on the mealy-mouthed ID snake-oil salesman, Geoffry Simmons, but not enough has been said about the KKMS radio folks (Jeff Sell, Lee Michaels, and the producers of KKMS programming) whose action is despicable. To recall Simmons on their show for a phantom one-sided “debate” is less than disingenuous. Is this the Christian standard? I.e. – if we don’t get the results we want, we’ll just keep pushing our side until the other side is forgotten.
I wonder if they will invite PZ back on air to review the scientific findings about whale evolution and the other issues?
Is this the Christian standard?
When it comes to the theocratic media industry, yes. But, if it’s done in Jesus’ name (his name is all that matters, really) it’s all ok.
This is interesting. It’ll be lost on the fundies since they know they’re not interested in actual science as much as fighting their favourite demon of the last century, but any sensible observer aware of this would start questioning the DishonestIdiots’ motives. Firstly, are they promoting ID as a real alternative to the ToE, or are they just angry with evolution and will latch onto any supposed refutation? If it’s the former, then why do they have an individual who claims not to have “an alternative and provable explanation” as one of their senior fellows? Wouldn’t they want a cdesign proponistsist? This seems to me to be tantamount to a local chapter of the Shriners appointing an individual to head up the organisation not because he’s a Shriner but because he’s an anti-Rotarian.
David Denning: Yes, that does appear to be the standard. Honestly. For those of us who leave Christianity, it is just plain shocking to discover the depth and consistency of the lies.
I am just fascinated that Simmons thinks his examples (or whatever one would call them) could possibly point to intelligent design. How does the fact that animals have eyes above their noses bespeak design on the one hand, but that whales have a “windpipe separate from the esophagus” be evidence on the other hand? Are things being similar the evidence? Different? I honestly can’t see what point he’s trying to make. Where is the argument for INTELLIGENCE? Is complexity, however jury-rigged and haphazard de facto evidence for intelligence? Is following a single template evidence, or is startling originality in various species? He seems to want to have it all ways, but at every point I see modification with descent to be a far more satisfying answer. I literally can’t figure out what his case is supposed to be.
It’s been a reasonably effective strategy for the last millenium and a half, at least in the Western world.
Just found this on “The Panda’s Thumb” in response to another ID assertion… (I think it’s interesting)
I have a question of semantics, and it’s as appropriate here as anywhere else, since it’s an issue about how Creationists/ID folks frame the debate.
Is it even logical to call folks who understand and accept the ToE Darwinists? Are there any physicists here who call themselves Newtonists? Likewise, I don’t know of anyone who refers to herself as a gravitationist.
Just wondering.
No, and it’s a good observation. It seems the fundies can’t comprehend that science is built on the work of thousands of individuals contributing their small pieces of the overall puzzle through the years. Instead, they imagine it’s some sort of cult in which the adherents must idolise someone and treat everything they say as divine revelation (I wonder where that concept comes from)?
You can be reasonably sure that anyone who knows anything at all about evolution and endorses the theory does not refer to themselves as a ‘Darwinist’ any more than those in the comparative examples you cited.
Right! Which is why our bellies aren’t protected by ribs, leaving us more vulnerable to serious internal injuries! It’s a small price to pay for a maneuver that compensates for the stoopid design of the esophagus and trachea!
I’d like to point out that the ability to perform the Heimlich maneuver is unheard of in cetaceans. I can’t speak for the cephalopods.
I thought the proponentsists were no fans of Haeckel, so why does Simmons think that ontogeny should recapitulate phylogeny?
He got the “land animals” part wrong, though. Insect trachea are pretty separate from the esophagus…
Back at ya #29: “Many MDs have no concept of how science works.”
I TA a lot of pre-meds. There was a lovely moment the other day where I explained to him -exactly- why he needed to learn and understand statistics.
“You mean they use statistics to figure out which drugs -work-?”
…sigh…
Hey-
Has anyone listened to “Dr.” Simmons’ latest appearance on KKMS? I searched for it in the archives- it was there yesterday (the listing without audio), but I can’t find it today. I’ve got the flu and my brain’s a bit rattled as a result, but it looks like the radio station pulled his last appearance from their archive. Can someone direct me to where I can hear it? If they did pull it, that action speaks volumes.
“You mean they use statistics to figure out which drugs -work-?”
*jaw drops*
OK, so I was stunned into silence by someone saying, “You mean there hasn’t always been AIDS,” but that’s just amazing.
Oh, but Windy – insects aren’t “animals” to a Noahist.
Simmons is another blithering pseudointellectual trying to hold out against the tide of knowledge, reason, and modernity.
Regarding my last post- never mind! I found it.
I literally can’t figure out what his case is supposed to be.
I can tell you that: he doesn’t have to make a case. He wants to swamp the scientifically illiterate masses with obfuscating rhetoric that sounds like official and valid protestations, knowing that his audience won’t be able to tell whether there is any content to his message at all. And he will garner support from them, because they will look no further than to observe that the people he sides with praise jesus, and we don’t.
(Yeah, I know you knew this already, but it bears repeating)
So… Two good ol’ boys are sitting at a table in a saloon, having a sandwich and a beer. Suddenly there’s a commotion over at another table: a young lady is on her feet, in distress, apparently choking on a bit of food. One of the fellahs gets up out of his chair, strides over the gal, lifts the back hem of her skirt and lays a long, wet lick on her butt! She’s so shocked, she coughs up the offending chunk of chow, and is saved! As our boy saunters back to his table he drawls, “Well, Ah’ll be damned if that Hahnd Lick maneuver don’t work ever’ tahm!”
Bears? Bares?
I’d like to point out that the ability to perform the Heimlich maneuver is unheard of in cetaceans. I can’t speak for the cephalopods.
More evidence of bad design. With only two arms, humans perform the Heimlich manoeuvre poorly, resulting in injury and occasional death. On the other tentacle, cephalopods with their many arms perform the Heimlich using a smooth peristaltic motion. The evidence is clear: the existence of the Heimlich manoeuvre among humans indicates we are a transitional species on our way to cephalopodism.
You mean they use statistics to figure out which drugs -work-?
So sad. Med school friends of mine expressed shock at how many of their classmates were evolution-denying fundies.
@69
It seems to me that scientists and those who support the theory of biological evolution are all dubbed ‘Darwinists’ in order for creationists and CDesign Proponentsists to be able create strawman and ad homonym attacks.
It is so they can attack the credibility of all scientists simply by attacking Darwin.
This fixation on Darwin also serves to identify their lack of any science what-so-ever by ignoring the 140+ years of research since Darwin’s Origins…. They can’t compete with insurmountable evidence creating a unified theory of life science, so they attack the man, which leads them to speak pejoratively of Darwinists.
Pet peeve. It’s a post on a blog, not multiple blogs. See how teh stupid seeps into every pore of this fool’s being?
Really Brodie? “Ad homonym attacks”?
Scientist: “You see, the evolution of the whale fluke can be demonstrated via…”
Cdesign Proponentsist: “There you Darwinists go again, citing random luck….”
You can be reasonably sure that anyone who knows anything at all about evolution and endorses the theory does not refer to themselves as a ‘Darwinist’ any more than those in the comparative examples you cited.
I think then that it might be effective to start firmly insisting on just using the term biologist (or taxonomist, or geneticist or whatever is most appropriate) when talking with these people, or to the general public. I think that just doing that all the time should start making the difference between science and blather much clearer for the listeners at home.
Just a thought. I am, after all, just another simple primate. Oh, wait, that covers all of us.
@26 Brownian- Let me also chime in with agreement of your idea. Simmons should be absolutely dogged by the whale issue. If only there were a way to prosecute this fraud– for fraud: deliberate misrepresentation for monetary gain.
And, as EVERY entomologist knows, god spends most of his time inventing beetles, everything else is coffee breaks and nappy time.
That “tax paid” reference is slightly revealing. I mean, aren’t the creationist people after what they call “fair” teaching of both evolution and ID? So what could he possibly have to criticize about someone being paid by the state for teaching evolution? – That is, unless he would like to see evolution banned from schools and universities altogether.
Oh, and by the way: Being a German, reading “Volkswagon” really hurts in my eyes. The correct way of writing it is “Volkswagen”.
” never conceding a single point from an hour long show.”
Huh? Simmons is complaining that you didn’t concede? Is he not aware that you’re supposed to force concessions from your opponent, not just give up your position for nothing?
“Other than winning points for outright rudeness and making up fiction”
He’s accusing you of lying, PZ, and not even giving the courtesy of responding on the same venue. It’s cowardly and dishonest. I’m assuming you’d allow him to post here (it would be incredibly entertaining if he did).
“what part of the debate did this tax-paid professor win? ”
Every part? Simmons didn’t present anything cognizable as a valid argument, and even his fervent supporters agreed he was ineffectual.
“10-75 trillion cell human being without going through 10-75 trillion trial and errors”
He seriously expects trial and error to work on a per-cell basis? He can’t be that stupid. He just can’t. That’s grasping-at-straws stupid.
I agree with one thing — you didn’t decimate him, PZ. He pretty much lost his unopposed “debate”, so I don’t think you can really take credit for defeating him. I could teach my seven-year old son to beat him in less than an hour. The only reason I can’t teach my four-year old to beat him is my four-year old doesn’t know English yet. He also doesn’t wet his pants, though.
“Can your respect for Geoffrey Simmons plummet a little lower?”
Apparently so. My respect for him has plummeted from 0 to -227. I feel quite dizzy from the sudden plunge into negative respect. I think I’ll go polish the copper-plated barnacles on my Darwinist/Darwinian shrine. Praise Darwin.
(I’ve only recently been informed that as an atheist, I am adhering to a “pseudo-atheistic darwinian religion”. Am I doing it right?)
-Richard
Posted by: Richard | February 7, 2008 3:45 PM
“-Richard”, as in Richard Dawkins??
The reason I ask is because R.Dawkins usually signs his posts on rd.net in a similar way..
@Greg #66:
Your reference to complexity makes me think of something. Simplicity, rather than complexity is considered the mark of “good design”…as in “Keep it Simple, Stupid” (KISS).
I work with databases at a large corporation and have spent time trying to deal with (and replace) overly complex, buggy systems. On more than one occasion, I’ve heard references to the fact that the legacy systems weren’t designed, so much as they evolved.
I’ve also experienced the fact that some of the most complex systems are made of layers of much more simple things expediently combined for short-term purposes – just like biological systems.
So, basically, good design exerts a pull toward simplicity, while organic systems tend to grow more and more complex.
Complexity does NOT equal design.
Cdesign proponentists are just plain dumb-asses, the good doctor not excepted.
Chris
“tax-paid professor”
Bottom-feeder!
I work for the state, and one of the favorite urban legends that used to circulate was the one about a contentious public meeting where one of the worthy citizens made the statement to the effect that “My taxes pay your salary!”
According to the story the geologist being grilled at the podium took a quarter out of his pocket and tossed it to the citizen saying “Here’s your part back.”
Hay PZ… there is something funky with your feed. I get this error in IE:
“An invalid character was found in text content.
Line: 21 Character: 136”
its a no go in Firefox and my feed reader…
just a heads up.
Oh, but Windy – insects aren’t “animals” to a Noahist.
Right, since they aren’t really alive…
It took him a week to come up with that witty riposte?
“It took him a week to come up with that witty riposte?”
Well, he had to finish crying in the shower first.
Unfortunately, I’m not so incredulous. Many MDs have no concept of how science works.
Indeed, Brownian. Just take a quick poll of the members of the Christian Medical Student Association at any US medical school. You’ll find people willingly learning the art and science of medicine who believe that there are supernatural forces that are stronger and more important than medicine.
If I ever have to have major surgery I may very well demand an atheist surgeon.
To echo #92, the quotes for Simmons are breaking the feed:
http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/index.xml
For some reason the apostrophes in the quote are coming out as ^R’s. Simmons’s argument is so wrong it’s not even encoded correctly!
Well, that one is hard to beat. Usually I at least get the sense that the ID types know a rhetorical trick or two. After all, a little selective skepticism along with a touch of credulity about empty but religiously-correct hypotheses and some superficially knowledgeable talk about ‘biology stuff’ that the audience doesn’t understand really aren’t that hard to master. But this guy– well, why study anything (even ID nonsense) when you can please the audience just by lying? And it’s an easy audience to please– those damn tax-paid parasite atheist perfessers, conspiring against God’s truth! Eternal Hell’s too good for ’em! Where’s my old rack? It’s time for some waterboarding– and then a good warlock burning! Yee haw!
Did Simmons ever find that article in Scientific American that he dimly remembered (with the empahasis on dimly)?
I especially enjoyed the irony in Simmons “revealing” that Darwin didn’t actually do any experiments, that Darwin wasn’t a scientist but rather an armchair philosopher.
Perhaps he should look at himself and the rest of the ID proponents upps contra-Darwinites.
“You mean they use statistics to figure out which drugs -work-?”
That’s nothing. One pre-med told me he didn’t have to learn the Krebs cycle, because doctors only need to know “what amount of cc’s to give”.
That comment has been standard dinner-table fare at my house for years now.
I like talk-origins a lot but one needs to be careful using it to debate creationists, as the site is rather dated…
@#100. Talkorigins is rather dated? when have you heard of an up-to-date creationist?
By offering Simmons an unopposed rebuttal after their promise of a balanced debate, KKMS abandons any pretense of fairness or integrity. For that matter, I don’t think that a person of integrity would accept such an offer if it was made.
Well, it certainly explodes the ID/creationist “nobody will debate us” whine. Once they get a real debate, they demand one without an opponent.
From a previous post about Simmons, he is reported to have said, on the radio show, “The nose is always above the mouth” as if this is an example of good design. And, now, on Uh-Duh, he is talking about the good design of whales?
… back to Radio Shack for another irony meter…
There was something odd (well, odder than all of the other nonsense) I noted in the broadcast, and after listening to it again, I got to this point:
Dr. Simmons:
Um.
I think Simmons was referring to this:
PZM:
And a few comments also expressing pity for a notional Mrs. Simmons. That might be what Simmons meant by “making up fiction”.
Dr. Simmons, if you read this — please understand: No one was attacking your wife. Indeed, sympathy was expressed. Although, as you say, the actual existence and state of your wife is indeed irrelevant to the point.
Professor PZ Myers was mocking your ignorance and incompetence.
To be specific, he was using ironic hyperbole and sarcasm.
HTH!
“Can your respect for Geoffrey Simmons plummet a little lower?”
Yes.
As for Simmons “works,” I’ve never known a man who can put such a tiny idea into so many words.
No. Unless you accept “disregard” or “disparage” as a solid usage synonym for “negative respect.” Then I can go below “zero.”
“Within minutes of the show’ s conclusion, he blogged that he accomplished his goal, never conceding a single point from an hour long show.”
Hmm. I guess your providing the link to the entire debate for your readers doesn’t count…
@BicycleRepairMan #89:
-Richard
Posted by: Richard | February 7, 2008 3:45 PM
“-Richard”, as in Richard Dawkins??
The reason I ask is because R.Dawkins usually signs his posts on rd.net in a similar way..
Sorry, no.
I hope that I haven’t confused anyone by my signature, but I am *not* Richard Dawkins. I was not aware that he used a similar signature.
I will try to remember to clarity in the future.
-Richard (not Dawkins)
You know, when you suddenly figure it out, like I have, it all makes sense. It just all fits together.
It’s the culture. This is all part of their culture. It’s a culture I reject in its entirety.
Iraq: Denial. Oil peak: Denial. Overpopulation: Denial. Science: Denial. Religion is a myth: Denial.
It’s just no longer a part of me in any way. I thoroughly reject it.
Thank you, PZ, for opening my eyes. Phil and Randi, and the good folks at Skeptics Annotated Bible, and my fellow Sacramento resident, Bob Carroll (http://skepdic.com/)… Thank you all.
Simmons:
Actually, the child is indeed advancing an alternative and provable explanation (“the dam is leaking! See, there’s the evidence! [points at leaks]”), if the dam is indeed leaking. The child is making a testable observation (the leaks), and has a theory that takes those observations into account.
And I’m afraid that is indeed the rule, in science. A new theory is necessarily a new explanation for new evidence and older observations.
However, in this case, the child is staring at the dam and saying “That can’t possibly work, therefore, there must be leaks, therefore, the dam is leaking!”
You don’t get to do that. No definitive statements without clear evidence. Well, you can speculate, but since it’s not science, it doesn’t get taught in science classes, and you certainly can’t write a scientific paper based on what you don’t know.
Or, to quote from the earlier thread: “Your ignorance is not evidence“.
little do they know if my wife is a cripple
??? Does he think clitoris is some sort of crippling medical condition?
I got attacked [..] by a whole slew of people saying things, including [about] my wife, and little do they know if my wife is a cripple, or is terminally ill, or the fact that I even have a wife.
This better not be another motherfucking wingnut closet case.
I sure don’t want watch “Dr.” Simmons doing an endotracheal intubation! Keerist. For him it’s gotta be random chance whether he ‘tubes the patient’s trachea or esophagus. I’m beginning to believe he got his M.D. by mail order.
I wonder if this is it? Not quite the right time frame, but perhaps close enough, given Simmons’ general level of accuracy.
Is anyone really surprised at Simmons reaction?
Public debates are theatre for these people and their role is to put on the performance their followers expect of them. If they appear to be more assured, glib and polished than their opponents then they have won – at least in their own minds.
PZ clearly had the better of the debate in terms of the science but there were a couple of occasions on the recording where he sounded as if he was at a loss how to respond. To me, it sounded as if he was dumbfounded at the sheer nonsense he was hearing and was trying to decide on the best response, but to an audience not familiar with the details of the science it might sound as if the creationist had rocked the Darwinist back on his heels with a devastating argument that he was hard put to answer.
If you are going to debate creationists in public you need to be more of a Hitchens than a Dawkins. This is not to deny that Dawkins is a powerful and effective advocate for science, reason and atheism but I think even he would admit that Hitchens is better at the close-in verbal grappling of these staged confrontations.
In his opening remarks, PZ sounded more Hitchens but in the debate he became more Dawkins as if he found it difficult to stop the rational, empirical scientist side of him asserting itself. Both approaches work, of course, but it depends on which side of your audience you are trying to impress.
I’m re-listening to the debate. Simmons is wrong about making no concessions — PZ conceded that the fossil record was incomplete, and explained it.
This is exactly why i’m addicted to pharyngula. Although I listend to the debate and could see how their audience would be further alienated, one reads pz’s written response to the author’s written remarks and can’t help but be swayed and actually emotionally moved.
PZ your written domination of any creationist fluff is so total and complete, I mostly feel embarrassed for those that defend their stance.
Never stop.
Billions of missing links? Creationists must love that whenever you find a “missing link” you end up with more missing links: what came before the new thing and what came after.
I just wish Simmons realized how tiresome his antics are. It’d be like watching Lord of the Rings and, at the end (um, spoilers?), as Sauron’s tower is toppling, the movie slows down and we’re treated to half an hour of the villain’s inner monologue of “I won! Ha! Take that! I’m the greatest! Take that, free peoples of Middle Earth! My tower is so sturdy! I had the ring all along. I can’t believe how cool I am. Sometimes it just blows my mind how great I am. I won. I won. I won. I am so victorious. I just can’t overstate how much I have totally won right now.”
“Oh, and little children who call up the National Guard and demand that we evacuate the town because the dam is leaking when they’ve never seen the dam, know nothing about how the dam is constructed, and have no evidence that it is leaking other than that the crotch of their pants are suddenly wet, are not brave heroes. They’re petty liars seeking attention.”
Simmons = Pwned
Okay, I listened to Dr. Simmons, twice now – I will never get that time back… I read the accounts at various places. Simply, the man is just not all there or he deliberately lies (is this a Christian value too?). I came to understand that old Dr. Egnor lied, perhaps Dr. Simmons does too, but for now I will assume it is just lack of ability to be gracious.
Now he has the opportunity to go find the real facts, any continuance of his statements will be proof of deliberate lies.
“Oh, and little children who call up the National Guard and demand that we evacuate the town because the dam is leaking when they’ve never seen the dam, know nothing about how the dam is constructed, and have no evidence that it is leaking other than that the crotch of their pants are suddenly wet, are not brave heroes. They’re petty liars seeking attention.”
Pure, unalloyed, 24K GOLD! Gold I tell you!
Where can I view the fossil database?
Pure, unalloyed, 24K GOLD! Gold I tell you!
Nonsense. Just the framing preferred by Cecil Terwilliger.
To Geoff Simmons, as I assume you are reading this blog and this post: I have a simple message for you.
It is hubris to claim to know more than you know; and it is foolish to demonstrate your deficiencies (then claim victory.) It is bearing false witness to deny that evidence exists when you refuse to open your eyes to see it.
How can you claim to know more about a subject than does one who actually studies it? Someone who works with it and analyzes it?
When PZ decried your ignorance on whale evolution he was referring to your lack of knowledge on a particular subject; he wasn’t calling you ignorant (although he could have.)
The whole basis of the Discovery Institutes’s work in regards to science is to destroy it because it reveals inconvenient truths, and you are participating in it.
You like the parts that sound “sciency” but when it comes to learning about how it works you don’t have the guts to actually do it. You do have the guts to call someone a liar, but not in direct communication and you don’t have the ability to back up your claim.
You want science to be “not science” when it comes to depending on a designer, but you don’t think it is up to your brand of science to actually describe the designer. That designer is untouchable and description is unnecessary because we all know who you are referring to. And it isn’t space aliens. If you had any real courage you would put your claims up in a forum in which people can challenge you. Not on a radio show whose hosts are all ready friendly to your point of view. Not in the Media Complaints Div. of the Discovery Institute.
If you do believe in G*d, and if you do participate in Yom Kippur, then you have a lot of atoning to do.
Have you no shame?
PZ…why don’t you put this as a new topic:
———————————————–
The 6 words that falsify common descent are as follows:
Mutations don’t add new, selectable structures.
The ugly reality for evolutionists is bacteria-like creatures have got to somehow get out of the primordial soup by way of mutations, which serve as the raw material for selection, which theoretically could build up legs and arms and toes and organs and muscles and beaks and gills and teeth (or parts of these), and at the same time build up the genome —— but there is no scientific evidence to show that this is even possible. Mutations cannot add whole new body parts such as whole organs, and they cannot add new, selectable structures onto pre-existing body parts. You and your theory and your site are simply sunk.
And by the way….please, I know you guys are desperate, but don’t misconstrue the word, “structures” as changes in molecules or within cells. What I mean by “structures” are traits that are morphological in nature — eyes, ears, beaks, paws, toes, feathers, noses, arms, gallbladders, muscles, etc….. There is certainly a differece between “structures” that are chemical and/or involve changes in molecules and “structures” which make a visual distinction/definition between organisms. The claim here is that mutations cannot generate selectable “structures,” as in the types of physical, outward, external, phenotypic structures that distinguish one animal from another.
PZ, you might have had your moment against Dr. Simmons, but you’ve got nothin’ on me, brotha.
Yay! Stan’s back with his nonsense. This is fun.
yeap…let the games begin. :)
Where’s that youtube link, Comrade Bolshevist?
You know, in addition to bi-coloration, gills, and those extra fingers and arms, maybe you could demonstrate a real example of your constantly fluxing genome: Grow an ovary and a uterus, and a sheath-like passage to the uterus from the outside. Then use your intromittent organ to fertilize yourself, and bear the result to term.
Weekly World News headline:
Three-armed six-fingered penguin-like fish-man is both mom and dad!
(“I shall call him… Mini-sport”, says proud parent)
(Outraged scientists call Child Protective Services)
Weekly World News headline:
Three-armed six-fingered penguin-like fish-man is both mom and dad!
(“I shall call him… Mini-sport”, says proud parent)
and I shall love him and squeeze him…
(Outraged scientists call Child Protective Services)
Really, I meant hug, not squeeze the breath out of…..
what are you talking about?
So far stan’s game is pretty boring.
Stan posts some idiotic drivel.
People rip it to shreds.
Stan ignores it and posts more crap.
As the WOPR once said “The only way to win is not to play”
yea, ripped it to shreds — with what, your imagination?
YAY! sockpuppetry too!
Damnit, I was looking for Dr. Simmons email on the Di’s website just to drop him a quick note to let him know he is a moron, but they don’t have a contact email for him. Figures that he would be as interested in allowing comments as our favorite attack hamster Casey.
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/02/leslie_orgel_metabolic_origin.html#more
For those just tuning in:
Stan/supersport has this notion that biological change results from cells just wanting to change; a form of Lamarckism/Lysenkoism.
He boasts of it more here (search for the posts from “stan”):
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/01/was_that_fun_or_what.php
Since he doesn’t know or care how biology actually works, he just ignores actual science presented to him. He doesn’t read or understand any of it.
So what the hell, pretend that he’s “right”. Pretend that he’s a sort of clay doll magically “adapting” to any and every environment, or just changing for the hell of it, and ask him to do tricks.
Everyone can play!
Is this the stan of the stan/mark/tom multi-sockpuppet troll?
Last I saw, he was enraged and threatening to overthrow the US government after shooting up a shopping mall.
OK, stan/mark/tom, we will assume you’ve overthrown our US civilization and incidentally surpassed Tim McVeigh’s record for pointless civilian atrocities. I didn’t hear about either one, but maybe my internet connection was down.
So what are you going to do for an encore? You do realize that there are 4.6 billion pagans, heathens, and infidels in the world don’t you? And that god gave the USA nukes for a reason?
I think SuperSock thinks that if it cannot be demonstrated that a single mutation can result in the development of a beak (where, prior to the mutation, there was no beak at all) then the ToE is falsified.
Is a patio irreducibly complex?
Is a patio irreducibly complex?
Depends. Where do you live?
Here in MA it’s the product of human activity. In AL, it’s Gods’ plan!
Raven, perhaps he meant “after shooting up in a shopping mall.”
Err… in the hearts and minds of all men?
Somerville?
Is this a trick question?
Somerville?
Triple Deckers don’t count. [used to live in Somerville. Thrilled to no longer be living with that roommate–wish he were dead, to be honest]
So tell me…is ToE to you guys kind of like Santa Claus? You it ain’t true but you still want to believe it anyway? Face it — you’ve got no evidence on the molecular level that your mechanism can do jack squat other than result in defective organisms. Oh, you might find a gene that mutates and changes a color or diminishes a certain trait, but they can’t add anything beneficial in phenotypic realm, so really, your fairytale about the bacteria getting out of the pond and morphing into humans is just that — a fairytale.
The real problem for you people is that “evolution,” if that’s what you want to call it, happens within each organisms. Individuals evolve, not populations. Each individual’s immune system is highly dynamic, their genomes are responsive, their minds (organisms don’t need brains to have minds) are intelligent and therefore all beneficial change happens as a result of the individual organism being aware of/sensing/responding to an enviornmental change. Darwin and PZ got it all wrong: populations of organisms don’t need natural selection to adapt them to the environment, as each individual does it themselves.
The good stuff is coming out now: the individual imagination is MAGIC!
“(organisms don’t need brains to have minds)”
Woo hoo, that up there with the oesophagus/trachea statement for the “stoopid” award.
How right you are!
Hey MAJeff, you should add the OM after your name. It just occurred to me that Majeffom is a really cool username. You could add “The Magnificent” in front of it for that extra savoir faire.
Hey MAJeff, you should add the OM after your name. It just occurred to me that Majeffom is a really cool username. You could add “The Magnificent” in front of it for that extra savoir faire.
Watching Kill Bill, v.2. Wish I had the 5-Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique instead of an O.M. That would add to the divinity!
:)
My goodness your uneducated.
PZ: For this alone you should give yourself the molly this month, pure comedy gold yet oh so true.
But they can certainly MODIFY already present structures. Which is all that common descent requires.
At what point does a series of minor changes to something result in something ‘new’ ?
Ever hear of polydactyly – EXTRA fingers and/or toes ? It is a dominant mutation.
There is a breed of dog that has six toes on its back legs – the main result of a change of expression of a regulatory protein.
So the whine that ‘mutations DON’T add new, selectable structures’ is thus shown to be incorrect.
So – the OBSERVED EXISTENCE of things like duplications of genes, exons, or entire genomes don’t count in your deranged, cramped little mind ?
The OBSERVED EXISTENCE of exon shuffling, retrotransposition, transposable elements and horizontal transfers don’t count as evidence to your flaccid comprehension ?
The OBSERVED EXISTENCE of homologous genes and the twin nested hierarchy is ‘mere coincidence’ (at odds that make abiogenesis look like a sure thing, even by creationut math) ?
No one except a gibbering cnidarian-brained, willfully ignorant and mis-informed twit (or a creationut, IDiot, or theoloon) could think a SINGLE gene forms body structures like arms, legs, fingers and toes !
You have apparently ignored all the findings of developmental biology over the last twenty or so years …
And your ‘explanation’ of how the different structures came about is what again ?
You ‘determined’ that HOW, exactly ?
It is a good thing that the ACTUAL ToE (the one used by scientists actually doing the work) does not expect parts of critters to just ‘poof !!!!’ into existence – that sort of silliness is part and parcel of Magical Skymanism/Creationism.
Not by the addle-pated blitherings of folk like you.
Setting up for a goal-post move :
Translation : “please don’t confuse me with facts and evidence !!!!!”
A change in body color is morphological in nature. As are the patterns on a wing. Which can EASILY be done by changing molecules or changes within cells.
And, unfortunately for gibbertwits like you, changing molecules CAN produce changes in morphology. Altering the expression pattern or stability of a regulatory protein can have major effects.
Your ‘structures’ are built up by the interactions between genes; thus, mutations can alter structures.
And the claim has BEEN SHOWN TO BE WRONG, since no one seriously thinks a single gene can encode external structures all by itself. Nor that ‘physical, outward, external, phenotypic structures’ are the ONLY things that distinguish one animal from another – how much difference is there between a tiger and a lion ? Both critters have exactly the same structures, yet are considered different animals.
Initiating false bravado as he runs away :
If what you’ve presented so far is any clue, a tree stump would have plenty on you.
I have to admit, I am dismissing everything supersport has to say . Seems to be no point except to be argumentative. But I have to say, a debate between him and “Dr” Simmons could either be comedy gold of such a pure concentration of pure stupid, those who listen loses part of their brain.
But I have to say this, at the risk of breaking Gould’s dictum, I am rather disturbed that he started signing off as SS. Perhaps it means nothing except he is too lazy to type out his moniker. But it does leaves me wondering if he has a rather nasty rivalry with a guy named SA.
The bits the Uncommon Descent crowd heard? They were pretty sure Simmons had lost too.
I would give the link, but my friend DaveScot decided to remove the post.
Bob
But it does leaves me wondering if he has a rather nasty rivalry with a guy named SA.
My chef’s knife is 8″. How long is yours?
MAJeff: is “chef’s knife” some sort of euphemism, and, if it is, wanna have “dinner” tomorrow?
Despite your friend’s best efforts, it’s been preserved for posterity here, thanks to the all-seeing CeilingCat.
Qu’vatlh! I meant here.
MAJeff, this night I cannot tell you how long my knife is.
Simmons – you’re a poopy head! Ha Ha I won the debate!!
(Yeah, PZ, that was simple! Why didn’t you think of it first?)
:-)
So who pays for your Medicare and Medicaid patients Dr Simmons ?
Geoffrey Simmons, M.D., obviously that must stand for Mad Dog.
I’m at a loss for words. I go out for a few drinks and come back to find that supersport, apparently jealous of Dr. Simmons’ success, decides to retake the lead in the creationists’ signature sport: vying for stupidest human alive.
I wonder if creos think brains are like comic books; most valuable when unused.
I love analogies – you can almost always turn them around at their users: Just as a child pointing out a (perceived) flaw in a dam does not make the child a structural engineer, a creationist pointing out a (perceived) flaw in the theory of evolution does not make him a scientist. Both the child and the creationist should expect a spanking if it turns out they were wrong.
Ah, Brownian, I love the fact you can go out for a “few drinks” and still be the wittiest poster and still able to fire off a volley.. After a “few drinks” I’m barely capable of human speech.
I think I’m a little bit in love with you ( bats eyelids, goes all coy)
It’s an old old trick, popularized over the past 8 years by G.W. Bush – declare victory regardless of the pesky evidence and facts. No matter what anyone says, just ignore it and claim the win.
It’s infuriating…and it seems to be effective, which is even more infuriating.
As a work colleague once told me, “People are the worst…”
Chris
Madoc,
Shouldn’t that be “Folks Wagon” in the Anglo Saxon vernacular?
Anyway fuggedaboutit! the Tata Nano is the new “Folks Wagon”
I’m not quite sure how to say that in Sanskrit though.
Mine goes to 11.
. It is worth one’s while to read his blogs and those that follow as they readily speak to the character of these folks, much moreso than I could ever do.
Because, as we all learned in freshman logic, “meanie says P” => not P.
ss = stupidstan, a clueless domain.
Insipidity, sockpuppetry, stupidity, trolling, and last but least, wanking — looks like a prime candidate for the dungeon.
“Hello, my name is Dr Simmons, I’ll be doing your surgery today”
Words that will forever cause all sensible people to run screaming from their hospital beds.
Yes,
Thank dog he’s not a surgeon!
Dr. Simmons’s victory over PZ reminds me of my own triumph against the New York Giants the other day. True, they didn’t know about it, but I showed up and none of them were there to oppose me, so I won single-handedly! Take that, Giants!
Damn! I go to bed early and I miss all the fun. Ksenyia, I love your link. My sons are totally into Pokemon and it drives me insane that they call the growth changes evolution. You’re making it worse for science education, evil purveyors of fanciful animal cards! I guess it wouldn’t market so well if they called it puberty, though.
There is something that Simmons said that I think might be his claim to fame. A whole new way of looking idiot. I’ve never heard that argument before and I think it hasn’t been mentioned here yet: he said “Darwin would not be published today”. Did anyone else also feel the stupid burning their brains at that precise moment? It still hurts.
I am speechless at the egregious dishonesty of Dr. Simmons.
If there is a god, then Dr. Simmons must surely be the work of the devil.
Prof. Weird said this: “But they can certainly MODIFY already present structures. Which is all that common descent requires.”
show me a mutation that adds a new, selectable modification to an existing structure.
DUPLICATIONS don’t count — as they are not NEW…they are merely duplications of existing traits. I’m looking for novelty. A bacteria could never crawl out onto land and become a human simply by duplicating itself or shrinking/enlarging itself. It would need all kinds of new structures — structures that you cannot account for by way of mutations.
that’s what my challenge is all about! Are you really a professor?…or are you just weird.
SS, you are hyterical. How do you get teh stoopid so accurately CDesign proponentsists?
OT
PZ, Seed is putting ads for FUSE – Faiths United for Sustainable Energy – on your atheistic blog. Strange but true.
I now know that ID proponents like simmons are actually mad or knowingly lie, theres no other explanation.
I think its the latter, they figure if they tell lie, after lie after lie, then to the layperson (and they are aiming sharply at the uneducated masses) things become so confused they dont know what to accept. If simmons said ‘oh, yes i was wrong about fossil whales and blowholes’ then he loses some of his audience, if he contines to lie he merely keeps them confused. Luckily there are many people out there who are not consused, not atall. He’s a fraudster along with the entire ID gang.
simmons is an idiot. why does he mention a whale having a heart the size of a car?? why doesnt he say that a shrew has a heart the size of a pea instead, and as for that unexplained blubber………what a desperate, dribbling imbecile.
so is SS sending up a parody or is he/she teh real thing???
things like that happen in 1950’s b movies and they are entertaining for sure. actually if im not mistake a duplication then only requires a single point mutation on either of the duplicates to give new info, is it really that simple?
@Walter Mitty (#176):
Now all you need is credulous media to report your statement without mention of whether or not it’s actually true to make your victory over the Giants indisputable.
Throw in some adoring acolytes and you’re golden.
Chris
*Takes deep breath*
OK SS (you really should think about changing that name you know), I’ll try being rational with you just once. A duplication can most definitely count as a new, selectable modification to an existing structure whether you choose to accept this or not (what goes on in your head is your business and no way effects the workings of reality one way or another).
Think about it this way – a duplication leading to, for example, an extra limb provides a redundancy, in that you have all of your existing limbs to do everything your limbs would normally do, plus an additional one that is free to do something new, something that you would not otherwise have been able to do because your existing limbs were busy doing the tasks they have to do in order for you to survive. If the new thing you can do with your extra limb provides you with a selective advantage over other creatures that do not have this limb then your extra-limbed descendants will become more plentiful in subsequent generations, furthermore the new limb will be subject to selection pressures to make it more efficient at doing whatever it is you use it for, hence a duplication can add a new, selectable modification to an additional structure.
Maxi said:
Sorry, my bad – although the idea of him running around loose with a prescription pad is not much more comforting!
SS…so how is it you figured out the brain/mind disconnect? Don’t try to play with the professionals son, you’ll end up getting squashed.
Can your respect for Geoffrey Simmons plummet a little lower?
Rhetorical question, right?
And Lilly: realizing you probably already know, as it’s been repeated a few times already: SS (slash ‘Stan’ slash ‘Guzman’ slash ‘Supersport’) is a troll. See previous description here. As at that link, Google a few of his pseudonyms for a general survey of his posting history. He’s been playing this game a few years now, has repeated that general challenge in several fora, and has never dealt honestly with the responses he’s gotten; he simply moves onto a new venue and repeats it once the vapidity of his responses become too obvious, and his tactics become too well known. It’s beyond unlikely he’s going to deal honestly with your response, assuming he deals with it at all. It’s nice of you to try to help him out at understanding this, but (again, as said before) he’s not interested in understanding. He’s interested in posing as having responses, in the interest of giving the illusion of discussion, to deceive the truly gullible.
Just FYI. Do with it as you will.
im only just aware of the new take on argument from design. the ones that go rather like this:
‘our arses are at our back end so we dont run into our own waste, intelligent eh?’
its funny isnt it how we are all supposed to be intelligently designed in the image of god yet something doesnt quite fit. We should surely look more similar to each other, if adam and eve were the first people and there was no mutation/selection theres no good reason then why we dont look very similar to each other, almost clone like. but of course we dont, humans vary a lot (well at least we can see how they vary, its wired into our brains).
how can design explain the following (and there will be 100’s of various often contradicting answers from creationists as usual):
i see members of the opposite sex wearing shorts in the summer, the legs are variable, some people have no legs through accident or birth, some have short legs, some have skinny legs, some have long legs and some have huge legs. When i see the legs i know which ones i find attractive and those less so, and lets face it some peole have very nice legs and a general concensus would have many people find those legs nice too. I suspect the most attractive legs are those that are a bit longer, a bit more muscular and a bit more shapely than normal but not TOO long, muscular or shapely. Why would an intelligent god design it so that only a small subset of people have legs that are honestly arttractive to our senses, why would he do that, isnt it dreadfully unfair to those others with the sub optimal condition?? the same could be said about faces, hair, hand shape, butt shape, shoulder shape, eyes, ears etc. how can ID explain why god made only a small subset of people universally attractive, in a nut shell why did god give some people really good legs and others not as good.
now, the thing is, i know evolutionary theory will have a very good answer to the legs question……but let me remind you, the ID bunch will have 100’s of various often contradicting answers depending on who you ask, heres a couple:
1) after adam and eve there was mutation hence the variety we see today.
2)god gave some people long legs and others short legs so that they could have sex easily with others with long or short legs.
3)god gave some great legs so we could admire his amazing creation, if we all had good legs then we wouldnt appreciate it the same
anybody for #4??
Hi AJ Milne,
I thought as much, I just thought I ought to give it a go, at the very least to make it clear to casual lurkers that there are perfectly reasonable answers to the questions that he’s asking and that we are not simply being snarky to hide the fact that we don’t have the answers (we do).
I’m not really expecting an answer like “my bad, I’ll have to think again” from Stan/SS/Whatever but you never know and at least if he then does post the usual gibberish as a response I can be snarky with a clear concience (if I can be bothered with him)!
legs continued..
intelligently designed, well its funny that evolutionary theory would predict pretty much every eventuality from those born with no legs> legs that are deformed and do work>legs that look normal but dont work>legs that look great when young and look terrible when old>those that look great when young and still look great when old>those that work until they are 90>those that dont at 35! i suppose on average they work long enough to get past reproductive age and a bit extra for grandparenting. its funny how evo theory can offer a great explanation for various legs (like various anything) whereas design offers precisely ZERO explanation, it never has i I suspect never will, ah damn, do i hear a creationst saying the lack of perfection is because adam bit the apple…………..
It’s really just sort of a new variant on the “Why don’t dogs give birth to cats” trope: “Why don’t bacteria grow legs?” It’s just as stupid, of course, and is a perfect sign that the asker isn’t just grossly underinformed and presumptuous, but completely unwilling to even crack a single book on the subject, and is thus better ignored.
Sort of like Simmons in that way. You could beat him over the head with every scientific journal on whale evolution you can find and it wouldn’t even make a dent in his skull.
(Oh noes! Teh evil Darwinist is thretening vilence now!!!11)
And hey, was that “hearing aid” remark some sort of cheap shot against the age of PZ and Dawkins and company? How old is Simmons? He’s like an onion, you just keep peeling and peeling and exposing more layers of utter jackass.
comment #147, PZ.
it looks like SS puts you up there with darwin, you BOTH got it wrong. kudos.
after reading post #147 i can clearly see what kind of nonsense some people believe, afterall I have a very strong vested interest in evolution being true, it (generally) means:
i’ll degenerate over time until i die of old age if im lucky, theres no afterlife, that i’ll have to ‘fight’ for resources all my life, that i might die of some newly resistent bacteria or some newly mutated virus, that i might develop some incurable genetic disease.
I dont ‘want’ evolution to be true but thats what the world around us suggests but what it does is makes me wonder quite where the ‘intelligence’ is!! Funny how the anti evolution lot create charicatures of evolutionists that mirror only themselves.
quote simmons:
‘Lastly, where is the rule that says one has to have an alternative and provable explanation for the origin of life before one can criticise Darwinian thought?’
so what simmons is saying here is ‘i have no positive case for ID but stop picking on me anyway’. why cant he just say that, and this is some frontman of the ID/DI brigade.
SuperSock seems to be unaware of how little is ever new.
Go ahead, SuperSock. Tell me one thing, just one thing, that is new, and I’ll explain why it isn’t.
(The burden of evidence, you see, is always on the troll.)
SuperSock seems to be unaware of how little is ever new.
Go ahead, SuperSock. Tell me one thing, just one thing, that is new, and I’ll explain why it isn’t.
(The burden of evidence, you see, is always on the troll.)
Maybe he should watch this: http://www.stage6.com/user/ybeaupre/video/1938496/PBS-nova-Evolution-ep-2-transformations
It has nice moving images in shiny colors with a narrator explaining all the difficult parts.
I think I’m a little bit in love with you ( bats eyelids, goes all coy)
But what will Mr. Bride of Shrek think?
organisms don’t need brains to have minds
This is true, as SS/Stan is clear proof of a living organism without a brain.
Although what organism, I’m not sure. They stuff it posts is so stupid I’m inclined to believe it is actually a pile of pond algae that somehow found a computer.
….No offense to pond algae.
I have four, a 12″, a 10″, an 8″ and a 7″.
An issue with the “evolution cannot give rise to a new organ claim” is that those who make this argument are always careful not to provide a clear definition of what a new organ is, so no matter what you point to, they can always reply, “That’s not good enough; I meant something bigger, or more different than other species” Is the Panda’s Thumb a new organ? It isn’t present on any other creature, it has clear function for the organism, so by any reasonable functional criterion, it is a new organ. Yet, it is easy to see how it could arise from hypertrophy of another kind of structure (a wrist bone). Nevertheless, I have little doubt that ID/creationists would dismiss it as lacking sufficient “organality”
How about just a collection of cells that make high levels of a particular enzyme? There is nothing particularly difficult about that from the point of view of natural selection–it can happen by straightforward mutations in genetic regulatory systems. If having more of that enzyme is beneficial, then those mutations could be selected. Is that an organ? How about a mutation that converts such a patch of cells into a separate mass of cells, distinct from other organs, with its own blood supply. Again, this can clearly happen rather easily by mutation–all I’m describing is a type of benign tumor, after all–just one that happens to be beneficial because the cells it contains have already been selected to do something useful. So where is the “magic wall” that makes natural selection incapable of designing a new organ?
What’s more, the theory of evolution does not suppose formation of a novel organ to be a frequent or high probability event. There simply aren’t that many distinct organs that are present in one species but not in others. For the most part, the organs of one species are recognizable modifications of those of other species.
Actually, to decimate means to kill one person in ten.
I doubt that PZ threatened to kill one in ten of him.
“….No offense to pond algae.”
None taken.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-02/uoa-fdc020508.php
David: “Go ahead, SuperSock. Tell me one thing, just one thing, that is new, and I’ll explain why it isn’t.”
considering bacteria don’t have an appendix or a kidney or a beak or a bat’s sonar system, then all these plus millions more features are new….yet you cannot account for any of them by way of mutation. You people only wish your silly theory was scientific.
Go ahead, explain here how your Lamarckian Mind Woo and butterfly wombs are “real” science. You’ve tucked tail and run away from the heat at RantsNRaves to vomit forth your idiocy at other locations under sock puppet accounts, hoping nobody would recognize you. As if anybody else could be so willfully ignorant of science and offer up such ridiculous fantasy stories. Have you embraced your latent homosexuality yet, sweet cheeks?
@Fernando Magyar:
Hmm, it’s a company and a trademark, so this is a word that should not be translated. Thinking about it again, maybe he wrote it wrong intentionally. I mean, everybody knows we Germans are deeply aligned with Satan, so using german words might well be considered a sin!
Y’know, maybe you could show us how you can make just one of your own organs larger by wishing?
(No, not that organ. Although wouldn’t it be a great rebuttal to all of those spam e-mails promising various treatments to do just that?)
How about your nose? Just make your nose a bit longer — say, one inch. And videotape it as it happens, of course, and post the video to youtube.
Oh, and don’t forget to say “Mutations don’t add new, selectable structures!” before you do it.
That would be great!
Hey, let’s not forget what you’re REALLY about, SStupid. “…because the little skirt-wearing/make-up wearing/disco-dancing/feces ingesting fags disgust people 98% of the non-fag population. Now answer my question. ” —Guzman/Supersport
This is the mighty intellect with which we have been engaged. The very earth trembles!
Just in case anyone would like a little back data on SS, some of us who’ve been dealing with his “special” ideas have been tracking his failures.
http://www.rantsnraves.org/wiki/index.php/Supersport
Some of you will probably find it quite amusing ^_^
People like SuperSock and other cray-shunnists see the world with childish eyes. They see everything as assembled, not grown. They see living things with the same eyes they use to view things made of Lego or K’nex. They see everything as an assemblage of discrete parts. They forget that the nose is a feature of the face.
Carlie, I like Pokemon (the card game is interesting and fun, but few kids ever learned how to play it) but I also cringe at the “evolution” thing. They don’t evolve, they take morphological quantum leaps. The granulity of change is… extremely coarse. :-) LOL @ “puberty”, I love that! Squirtle grows into cocky teen Wortortle, who matures into confident, powerful Blastoise. That works fer me!
I’m surprised that no one has brought up the topic of nylonase, or the fact that there are two different kinds of nylonase, one version from a population of wild Flavobacterium living in waste ponds near a nylon factory, and a different version that arose in a laboratory culture of Pseudomonas aeruginosa that were grown in nylon-byproduct enriched agar.
I may have said this before:
Debating with creationists is like playing chess with a pigeon, no matter how well you set up the rules the creationist will fly in knock over all the pieces, cluck a great deal, crap all over the board, and fly off claiming victory.
Like Jim Carrey in Ace Ventura?
On the bright side, it’s also an opportunity to bag one’s self a fresh squab for dinner.
Actually, we do have a pretty good phylogenetic series for kidney evolution. Start with a ciliated epithelial cell with a semipermeable, selective membrane; fold it into the hollow interior of the animal, where it both secretes and keeps coelomic fluids flowing; invaginate a tube lined with these ciliated secretors, and then increasing the convolutedness of the tubes to form the whole kidney.
So, would an example of a proto-kidney be the flame cells of the planarian?
PZ…how does mutation play into this?…which was the whole point.
Plognark, that’s great. Everyone read SuperSport’s understanding of light and then point and laugh!
Okay, maybe I’m being a little mean, but really, this guy needs to spend less time on the internet and more time learning about something, like maybe getting a correspondence degree in small engine repair from one of those Sally Struthers schools.
Everyone read SuperSport’s understanding of light and then point and laugh!
——> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Incidentally, the Republican’s deficit spending illustrates they are preditory on the next generation, preditory on children. And to say the Republicans deem the children as “acceptable losses” says something morbid.
Life used to be hard. People had to walk a mile to draw water. There was no refridgeration or canned foods. Now life is easy, but only in terms of life’s “basic necessities”.
The “salvation” dynamic is quite the opposite:::We paid for our easy lives with our very souls.
Life IS hard now. The gods have used their clone host tools to create the perception of evil rewarded (Italians, Japanese, etc) and then corrupted the disfavored with it. (Expect Asian Westernization is met with a European-style short memory span, allowing the gods to use their historical enemy, the Japanese, to corrupt Asians as they used the Italians to corrupt us).
Before life was easier, more simple, innocent, pure. Employing these temptations ensured corruption is EXTREMELY difficult to overcome, a tactic which progressively ensures fewer disfavoreds repair their relationship with the gods.
Jesus was good. The people the gods put around him were not. Perhaps more accurately said:::The people the gods put into these clone hosts come time to write the scriptures were evil.
The gods created a distraction, “savior”, preventing people from realizing Jesus’s original purpose, just like they did in this Situation::::Hurricane Boss and the associated $50 billion dollars of distractive temptation. Now people think I will save them, I have to pay for everybody, my death will absolve people of their evil, and they continue to fall for temptation no matter how evil the request. Sound familiar? This is characteristic of the gods inferred clues you need to interpret.
There is a bitter pill people must swallow. The sooner you understand and begin to behave appropriately the better your chances.
I personally believe this Situation is about the “new Boss”, for positioning a Second Coming of Christ would imply The End and that would make people freak. Either way make sure you ask about ethnicity, because the gods offer clues like the Penis and The Boot to help us understand. Also remember the gods honor matrilineal descent and the women are the keepers of the blood. This tactic can serve to be quite deceptive.
Just as therapy sessions and AA meetings proves they enforce their psychoanalysis positioning, so will they enforce their Christianity/Manifest Destiny positioning, ensuring Planet Earth dies according to the Book of Revelations.
Even if there were a “new Boss” you will continually being reincarnated until you either ascend or are ultimately thrown away.
“Instant gratification” is a tactic the gods instilled about 25 years ago. Now they use it, ensuring a certain percentage of disfavored don’t have the patience necessary to pursue the path, fix their problems and instead give up, continuing with their corrupted behavior.
People need to understand the 20th century changes are new. Life remained essentially unchanged for a very long time.
I realize they are making promises to most of you about Planet Manifest Destiny, telling you everyone will go. This is not true. It is a tactic. Many/most of you may go, but if you don’t behave appropriately I believe the majority will begin dropping like flies in a couple hundred years.
Planet Manifest Destiny is a “magic”-fueled environment:::The food is better, the sex is better, life is “enhanced” with magic.
The gods only use their power to hurt you:::If they peaked you euphorically for homosexuality you’d be out sodomizing each other. If they peaked you for drugs you’d be an alcoholic or a junkie.
“Magic” is only used to hurt you, and these “magic”-fueled experiences on Planet Manifest Destiny will be no different.
Too many whites look at blacks and write them off:::”They’re fucked.”, “They’re finished.”, “Who cares, fuck them.”. There is much you can learn from observing how the gods deal with morbidly disfavored groups like this. For example:::The gods LOVE to sell blacks on sex. Black popular culture, within their social groups, etc, sex is pushed like a drug. THIS IS A CLUE TO THE DISFAVORED THAT SEX IS BAD FOR YOU, as is everything the gods “sell” to the black community in popular culture (fashion, jewelry, “cool”, etc).
THE GODS DON’T RESPECT SEX AND THEREFORE INFLICT HYPERSEXUALITY UPON THE MOST MORBIDLY DISFAVORED. Food is similar. I’d refer you to the nature of Jewish food. The gods enhanced temptation with the diversification of foodstuffs in the 20th century. There are many elements at work here besides sex and food.
If you don’t understand these temptations, if you aren’t thinking correctly when you arrive on Planet Manifest Destiny you will succumb to this temptation-ridden environment and you too will be gone in a couple hundred years. Example::::Men with drinking problems are peaked euphorically for alcohol. If they don’t understand this dynamic of their disfavor, if they’re not working on fixing their problems once they experience life up there they will experience this enviornment and never have a real chance again, for the objects of their disfavor (sex, food, alcohol) are far better than what the gods offer on Earth AND enhanced with “magic”.
Planet Manifest Destiny is not the goal, as so many of you believe. It is distraction, temptation, punishment, tactic, one that is going to ensure over 95% of candidates fail.
The gods taught you that temptation would be used to test you. You need to understand good from evil, right from wrong, decent from the indecent. If so you’d recognize the indecency and destructive nature of “magic”.
A glimpse of the god’s pathology:::Push them into “wanting it”, cut out their clits to justify that change then fuck them all for it.
(Positioning dictates Manifest Destiny, meaning the gods refuse to accept culpability, as is the case for AIDS in Africa as well.)
The African’s experience is extreme, as we all witness, but understand this is happening to each one of you in a far more subtle way. You just don’t know it yet. That bitter pill will be used to illustrate this.
Share NOLA blacks complain about my teachings.
If you engage in the hedonism which the region offers even after Katrina dispersed the community it means you are The Damned. The gods employed this major event, dispersing blacks out of this enviornment and giving them a second chance. The fact they left you there to continue with this behavior says you are not welcome and are being left to rot in this wicked environment.
If they are decent blacks that is different, but their presence in this environment is still a bad sign, a statement on their level of disfavor and the level of “acceptable losses” they will have to accept and a clue suggesting how far they have to go (see the Jena6 comments below). Then we can liken them to people who live in, say, Nevada, surrounded by evil and temptation.
This is a battle of good and evil:::I am good. The gods are evil.
They created the perception of “boss”/savior to keep people from the real purpose of this Siutation:::The Final Prophet.
They wanted me to willingly participate in this theater, and praying for my ability they whimsically repress with Artificial Intelligence would contribute to the concept of a good, absentee Christian god which they would use to corrupt the disfavored.
People think wrong and their behavior compells them to incurr evil because of it. You need to learn what I teach and impliment these changes into your lives.
In this deteriorating, godless enviornment testing people with temptation compelled people to “think wrong”, corrupted by telepathic positioning and the wicked enviornment that exists today.
This is a battle of good and evil:::I am good and the gods are evil.
The gods view this quite the opposite::I am the evil one trying to help corrupt, godless sinners who fell for temptation wholesale, people who seek “something for nothing”, a free ride. This is an insult to the gods which will be punished.
How can poker be MY fault???
How can energy drinks be MY fault???
How could the 7.4 Caribbean earthquake be MY fault??? Oh, yea. I brought this to their attention saying the Goleta oil spill of the San Francsico Bay Area may have saved us from the 7.5 earthquake they had planned for us.
Not god-fearing yet? As their anger is revealed and their wrath inflicted that will change. Unfortunaltly it will be too late.
How can the Goleta oil spill of the San Francsico Bay be MY fault??? Oh, yea. UCSB.
How could Dick Clark’s stroke be my fault? Oh, yea. They wanted to send a clue regarding these clone host tools.
The tiger killed the Latino. Now you understand the heirarchy.
And expect both Muslims AND Hindus to be ranked above the unrespectable Catholics, incidentally.
Is this a clue to try to help them understand the gods hold them in such low regard? Is this a clue to Latinos to NOT fall into the same mindset which they sold to blacks? Of course ignorant blacks think they’re great. QUite the opposite it true:::The Black Panthers are part of that “upper incisor of The Beast” clue, designed for ripping and tearing flesh.
Lady, you know Austrian Sigmund Freud’s psychoanalysis is a scam. They push people into it with Artificial Intelligence.
The computer is god.
Back in the 70s they used to spring it on people like you after they completed their education. They either had to abandon their educational investment or embrace evil.
You will be making a living setting people in the wrong direction. For this you will be cast into damnation.
They lie to everybody. Get out now while you still can.
Latinos are fucked. Much like Italians they demand sex without that consideration of decency, which is the historical role of females.
Misogynistic/paternalistic societies are charecteristic of people teetering on the edge. Latinos are no different.
I suspect Latinos are banking on their Catholism in the context of Manifest Destiny. Ironically it is one of their problems, for Catholic women have big problems with masculinization.
There is no such thing as a savior. You’re just looking for a free ride. Start doing the work.
Savior is a lie. Savior is why Christianity is evil.
Improve your relationship with the gods and fix your problems. Thoughts like this hurt you in the eyes of the gods, I promise you.
Equality is a lie. The gods placed us in our regions of Earth specifically. Equatorial/tropical is a bad sign.
“Black people have to try harder and do better than everybody else.”
My advice is recognize they gods offered Ned Flanders for a reason.
The gods place a very high premium on innocence, which is why they take children. Try to identify with that innocence within you and pick up where you left off.
Remember:::Everything old is good. Everything new is evil. Remember what you learned as a child when receiving your religious education and impliment it into your lives:::::
1. The gods use temptation to test you.
2. If you want to go to heaven you have to be good.
Try to remember the religious education you received when you were young. If your parent is corrupt and didn’t ensure you were educated religiously you need to take it upon yourself to learn what the gods taught the people back when they were feeling generous.
Now they no longer are. And I think this preditory mindset applies to both Islam and Christianity.
Everything old is good. Everything new is evil. When you contrast it should be clear, for the elimination of societal norms and common decency has ensured a rapidly deteriorating society:::Look to antient religions.
“Help” is akin to “savior”. Start doing the work.
There are so many clues the gods favor females over males:::
– Girls kind, considerate. Boys celebrate violence.
– Males sent off to die in war
– Males locked up in prisons
– Males inflicted with addiction and alcoholism (prior to masculinization of women)
– Males (and blacks) celebrate “cool” and sex; similarities a clue which demands attention
– Males sold on empowering elements, such as guns, horsepower, strength issues, hurting their ability to have a good relationship with the gods.
– Males are indecent while the females are the promoters of decency
– Females are better people than males
Historically the role of females was as enforcers of decency. Men have god’s disfavor and enagage in behavior damaging to themselves and their families. Women helped the men understand that this is inappropriate behavior while enhancing decency in their domestic environment.
What the gods tell you directly is the lie:::You must inferr the truth from the subtle clues they offer. Due to their favor the gods will bestow wisdom upon the females. My advice is listen intently, because the gods will offer wisdom to you through your women.
————————————————————————————-
I am afraid that all decent (non-athletic, non-music) black sucess is ALL non-black, and the gods use other races in these black bodies to create this perception of improving conditions. Corruptable HARD by money, the gods may ironically view this as compensatory.
I have said that I personally believe that the gods are no longer allowing new people to be born, that we are, in effect, ALL clone hosts, individuals chosen once the gods determine/decide what kind of parents they will have. The difference, of course, is the peasantry isn’t frequently flipped out like the elite whom see up to multiple clone host bodies in a calander year.
I believe the preditory Italians who telepathically accepted the “black project” assignment under the guise of 1906 went from clone hosts fucking up the economy in 80s corporate America into a black gang-banger to act as and become victim of an assassin.
Am I suggesting there may be black children running around with no brains? When there is a major project like Black War I was, certainly.
Unfortunately, being a member of the most disfavored race of people is accompanied by great misery, and this may be a reletively painless liberty which they gods could take.
There’s all kinds of fucked up strategies the gods utilize which the disfavored of Earth couldn’t even imagine. Don’t be surprised.
I have stated how Italians and blacks have much in common:::
– Gang-banging, quest for easy money, hypersexuality, misogyny/paternalism,
– The “niggerification” of the disfavored today is similar to the homogenization of society with this Mediterreanean culture in the mid-20th century.
– The gods leave both in elite positions for an inordinately long period of time before getting them out SPECIFICALLY to incurr a fatal level of evil. I believe the Italians who thought they were going to ascend after planning WWII, civil rights, the 60s and other misery in the 20th century were REALS. Only after they were funneled into the death camps they devised themselves were they initiated into this clone host rotation::::The death camps signaled the beginning of the clone host rotation for these Italians.
The gods develop these clone host bodies WITHOUT BRAINS, placing people strategically only after puberty begins, ensuring they don’t gain humanity or compassion which children are apt to experience and are instead delivered immediately to the period in life when people begin to incurr serious evil. These people made a grave mistake crossing the line from person to preditor and the gods punish them for their decision.
I believe Italians are like blacks, and the gods take GREAT LIBERTIES with the most morbidly disfavored among us. I think this is how the gods dealt with not only the clone hosts so prevalent today but also the morbidly disfavored, blacks (certainly during Black War I), possibly Italians as well (those who fit a prescribed level of disfavor). It serves as an phenominal corruptor, and using the morbidly disfavored to execute their script is paramount in their strategy:::::Selling teenage arrival to the disfavored nearly always ensures absolute compliance. If this describes your life experience you need to be extremely concerned, for it means they don’t want you to enjoy the favor or innocence of childhood.
“There’s things we want addressed in there.” Sound files which aren’t going to make it:::
1. Lower henchman (?) offered the famous gangster clone host when he was shipped off to Nazi death camps (?, or whatever punishment they inflicted on him.)
2. 20s-30s Italians plannned all kinds of social misery, including civil rights, the 60s, 70s, etc.
3. Just as many black-hating Italians were put into black assassins for Black War I so may have they put some german-hating “Romans” into death camp workers to kill their own kind.
How extensively were german-hating Italians placed into german roles (soldiers, citizenry, etc) for poetic justice??
OFFERING CLONE HOSTING TO PEOPLE IS TEMPTATION!!! CROSSING THE LINE FROM PERSON TO PREDITOR COSTS PEOPLE IN THE EYES OF THE GODS!!! The gods have many tactics to ensure they gain trust and therefore obedience:::Beem out poop, HIGHLY DAMAGING preferential treatment (an effective corruptor of both sides), xxx, xxx, etc.
They rotate these preditors through ADULTS, ensuring the gods can justify controlling who receives a chance and who doesn’t.
There is nothing the gods can’t do, and as far as supernatural incidents go this one is merely the tip of the iceberg.
Be god-fearing.
If the gods funneled the Italian gangsters into Nazi death camps through some supernatural power then it is no concern of yours. If the gods put one of those Italian monsters in your son’s body it is not your business. This is your child and you need to do the very best job you can with your children.
These type of tactics have hurt the disfavored very badly.
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UTAH LOOKS LIKE HELL. THE GODS PUT THE MORMONS IN HELL FOR A REASON:::Christianity’s misogynistic (polygamists). Like Muslims.
Females are god’s favored gender. They send men off to die in war. They inflict them with addiction, lock them up in prisons, inflict them with empowerment through guns, horsepower, etc. Never turn your back on obvious clues like these.
Polygamy is promiscuity and promiscuity is sexual deviacy. Perhaps Mormons will be reincarnated into Africa since they have that hypersexuality thing down cold.
The gods will manufacture the perception of favor and corrupt the disfavored with it, similar to my example below “equating their evil with sucess”. We see it with the Italians and the gods 1906 Manifest Destiny positioning. We see it with black popular culture.
The gods create temptation to test people. The more disfavor the stronger the temptations which is why we have absenence from mind-altering substances in Mormonism, which is why some have the appearance of favor::::They create the perception of favor among the disfavored and corrupt them with it, ensuring their pattern of behavior continues uninterrupted.
Beware the changing dogma:::A red flag and a clue.
Expect the absence of blacks at PreditoryItalianCompany was a clue that they have a history preying upon blacks.
All things considered, expect their history would be along the lines of economic repression of blacks, appropriately.
Criminals doing business with criminals.
Their “cheap tricks” are preditory:::poker, cars, boss, movies. Every item of the $50 billion is all evil, designed to prey on the disfavored, a clue regarding modern popular culture and society. Perhaps not so “cheap” after all.
“If you don’t come around…” All this shit is cheap and easy, a tactic which ensurs people wait AND aren’t recepitve to my teachings because they think they’re getting a free ride. It also serves as its most basic of purposes, as preditory distraction.
All this stuff didn’t happen for me. Anytime the gods use their powers it is only to hurt the disfavored. Everything that happens is to mislead the disfavored:::It’s here for YOU!!!
“You’re going to throw this away. We’re not going to be blamed for this.” Yea, right. Like their assumption of culpability has got value. Expect this to be yet another dynamic of “management by convienience”.
The Final Prophet is merely a formality, like they gods are required. It’s kind of like “Black off the books.wav”:::An event designed to merely meet some policy requirement while ensuring the disfavored have no real hope:::Life in the ghettos of California.
The god’s efforts to minimize my impact is consistant with their methodology, ascention becoming increasingly harder as time progresses, suggesting we really are approaching The End.
Brokeback Mountain says you understand:::Fuck off god.
Things I’ve ruined::::Midnight Madness. Note that to the gods both are merely cheap tricks.
Denying money is one of the goals of positioning in the Italians::::The gods used this evil to ensure the Final Prophet was not financed. The geographic clue warned you about The Boot.
The gods took special but played for commoner. Now this Situation passes without affect because special is a one-way street. The gods instructed AI to deny my ability to be articulate. As a result people weren’t receptive::::The “back-hand” was very real. The “help” was not.
I won’t invest when absolute power must CHEAT to win. This IS the event. Learn.
I am disgusted the gods position absolution for themselves because it is their technology conducting this evil upon the disfavored. When the disfavored understand this tactic hatred will eliminate a large percentage of them.
Sinisterly, wickedly brilliant.
What I woudln’t do for a fair fight:::The emperor has no clothes.
I can’t express my disgust enough. 2007 was MY YEAR, yet you ruined it whimsically because you refused to pay consideration on this obligation you assumed, claiming since I didn’t pray I wasn’t allowed my ability. Of course my abilities would have countered your interests. How convienient. AND another tactic.
I think we needed ground rules in this thing. Again, convienient AND a tactic.
Fuck you god. You are a sick joke.
I’m not investing. I wouldn’t knowingly help the elite who you used to prey on those I try to help. I want this preditory evil dead.
Guess I can’t count on HTH. I was hoping it meant I was being assigned to this task.
Lake Michigan is defnintely not a self-reference.
“We’re going to enforce positioning.” You better make them get their hands dirty AND BRING BACK THE 20TH CENTURY FOR THIS. Killing fucking niggers in celebrity clone hosts AIN’T no fucking fun.
I merely want the same preditors who willingly hurt the people I try to help. I realize there was lots of magic employed, enabling things like monster arena tours, other all-consuming offerings to happen. But too many in these clone hosts were active preditors.
The Situation is VERY 20th century. Maintain consistancy, please.
Management by convienience.
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The “early cut-off” of the disfavored::::The fall of Russian communism vs. the inevitable Cuban (Chinese?) communism in late ’00s.
“Many Californians look more favored.” Early cut-off get dumped on first:::California’s social poison inflicted on CALIFORNIANS FIRST!!!!
Many Mormons look favored too. Both are manufactured and used as a corruptor.
The gods are weilding a wicked sword, and this proves it. They’re playing both sides of the coin. People should be afraid.
Most of you are going to die. They want a full-blown Apocalypse.
I perceive a level of “magic” surrounding Osama Mobarack, a red flag and a clue.
The magic surrounding Osama is not going to be used to promote bi-racial, for this will represent the gods accepting culpability . His mere presence on this national stage is all that is necessary to justify telling uppity-negros to enter into bi-racial unions, ensuring people fall on their own swords.
The gods offer a clue through his name.
It’s one thing to understand the concept of “acceptable losses”. It’s quite another to promote them::::His deal with the record company executive suggests he preys on the disfavored.
Despite the preditory event that was the impeachment of her husband in the crucial years of 1997-1998 and her continued loyalty to Bill Clinton, Hillary is a better choice for the disfavored.
Hillary Clinton doesn’t belong in the White House.
For mileniea women have been “above the fray”, and because of it the men were relegated to these evil-incurring positionings.
Pelosi’s there because she is Italian. It is a statement about masculinization, about the value of Italian women, about the morbidly disfavored falling first. And it is because Hillary is going to become President:::Pelosi’s assignment is symbolic.
Reverse positioning::::A woman’s place is protected from evil.wav. This whole “women’s rights” movement is a way to conceal the masculinization of women.
The fiasco over his $400 hairdo captures my attention and makes me think John Edwards may be the right candidate, the one with the most empathy for the disfavored.
Without a doubt:::The best hope is the first to fall.
Incidentally, the Republican’s deficit spending illustrates they are preditory on the next generation, preditory on children. And to say the Republicans deem the children as “acceptable losses” says something morbid.
“We make evil look good.” And then use it as a corruptor.
Look how these wicked, immoral Manifest Destiny gangsters, the kind of individuals who planned WorldWarII, come across merely as businessmen. As they’re doing with the strategically preditory personality baseball player, as they’ve done with Preditory Italian Company, who merely exists as a Manifest Destiny talking heads for the blue chippers in the “eye of The Beast”.
And they dirty up good, as we see with me, as we saw with Bonds.
Much as with all the other empty promises, I will be CHEATED out of the fulfillment of the HTH entitlement. As a result I DEMAND you address the history of the individuals involved, public and private, current and FORMER LIVES. We’ll see who the fuck is evil then:::::
Expect the absence of blacks at PIC was a clue that they have a history preying upon blacks.
All things considered, expect their history would be along the lines of economic repression of blacks, appropriately.
Criminals doing business with criminals.
And courtesy of M&A you do business with this evil every time you patronize corporate.
The Amish in Pennsylvania is the clue:::Set a goal of simplicity, strive for purity.
Spamming lesbians. They share that homosexuals will always side with the company which preditorily pays high wages to homosexuals, rendering my assistance worthless.
Look at it like this, for this is the truth:::The compensation for your indecency is the high wages you receive. There was a time when you couldn’t find a job if you were out of the closet. Employers demanded decency in the era before the gods homoginized corporate with this evil element.
You are trading high pay for time. People who sign on to today’s positioning will begin dropping like flies in a couple hundred years. Homosexuals in a couple decades. This is just how it works. “They don’t care.” They will one day. The money isn’t going to matter when their heads are on the chopping blocks.
Employers used to demand positive personal behavior. It was for good reason.
The gods offer clues about evil companies. The redwhi8te&blue corporate color scheme is one. Evil/violent imagry, promoting destructive social behaviors (tatooing, etc) in commercials are others.
Pro-homosexual policies are another clue. It is akin to enabling. These same companies would enable other “magic”-fueled behavior, like addiction or alcoholism, if those people could function on the job. “There’s a joke here.” I see.
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Said Italy has heavy volcanic activity for kinda the same reason they put the Mormons in hell.
Motherfuckers. Serves them right.
Of the male Italians in the United States 1906 worked on at least half of them.
I say the number is closer to 80%.
Of those AT LEAST HALF were corrupted voluntarily, meaning the gods did not push them into being evil. This half should already be dead. This is an immoral people, quick to prey on others, as their history suggests.
Understand the god’s methodology, for it will help you decipher future events. KKK killings are a good example::::
The gods either told or pushed the black males into acting up. Rednecks, corrupted by 1906, thought their participation would help them. Many believed it gained them protection from their illegal bootlegging activities.
They role played 1906 to Italians, told them that their fellow Italians were using this platform of 1906 to achieve global economic domination, and told them that if they wanted a piece, if they wanted to belong and be a part of this they’d do what they’re told.
They illustrated the Moorish invasion, and the gods pit the Italians against the morbidly disfavored blacks. A majority of the KKK incidents were Italians who did the actual killings.
This is a good example of how the gods get the disfavored into place to fuck everybody involved.
Alcohol has always been a way of hurting the men, making them less than decent.
Women traditionally have been the enforcers of decency within the family unit and used their motivation to help men behave appropriately; due to their disfavor men’s indecency has negatively impacted not only the family but the community as well.
Cultures which offer wine have women who consume wine, and the result is an indecent society. Combine this with Italian male’s demand for sexual without the consideration of decency and you have masculinized women defining a morbidly disfavored society.
Anyone involved in the wine industry has no empathy for either the disfavored of the Mediterreanean basin or women, disregarding the superior gender. If they understand this as the goal and are sold on “earning” they will be punished very harshly.
The wine industry changed radically in the late 80s or early 90s. Likely still believing they were “earning”, certainly thinking they were “golden” expect the gods funneled many Italians into this new “micro-winery” explosion this industry experienced, maintaining the god’s preference that Italians prey on god’s most favored gender.
“They deliberately planned those things (90s “parting shots”:::The Sitution, end-of-revelry cycle media preditation, AIDS in Africa). When they found out the truth it was too late.” HTH supports this. They shared they instructed his grandfather preyed on women emotionally to set the legacy necessary for the late 90s event. And of course 95% of the KKK deaths were revenge killings for the Moorish invasion of Italy. I believe 1906 is responsible for the economic repression of not only Africa but also the American ghettos.
“(Blah.)” Expect we won’t see such activities on the income statements. Italians may be stupid but they’re not positioned to be THAT stupid.
That monster who laid the legacy still alive? “He’s been a pig a couple of times.” He needs to be dead, as do the half who signed on to 1906 voluntarily.
New Orleans/Louisiana is French, while California is positioned as Italian.
Katrina was used to help the disfavored escape that wicked enviornment. Blacks in California won’t be so lucky.
Know who your friends are.
I think Louisiana is like California:::Considered god’s favored land. Perhaps this is because of the river, sportsman’s paradise, etc.
Abuse dercted to Cajuns, Creoles and blacks in Louisiana suggest this:::Anytime the disfavored enter god’s favored land they get fucked for it. I believe they used the Jena 6 ruling to send this clue.
Flanders is the shining example of a role model, but his parents were wicked. They were beatniks, the original hippies, purveyors of social poison, etc. Incidentally, beatniks emerged from the Italian North Beach neighborhood in San Francisco as a clue.
Because Flanders was raised in that evil enviornment his mind was poisoned. Only through understanding was he able to alter his behavior and become decent. Because of it he provided Rod and Todd a REAL chance, one that he will receive in the next life as well, but he can’t go up because of his youth.
My advice is recognize Flanders is offered as a role model and emulate this decency. Do the very best you can with your children and perhaps the gods will see fit to bless you with a real chance much like you gave your children.
The Flanders role model suggests you are multiple lives away from ascention.
Ned Flanders was born into a cancerous environment. As a result his mind was poisoned.
Somewhere along the way he came around and began to do the right things. He provided a good environment for Rod and Todd, who have a real chance because of it.
It doesn’t mean Rod and Todd are going up. They still have to earn it.
Anyways, because Flanders did the right thing and provided a real opportunity for his children the gods may bless him with a similar real opportunity to ascend as a child in the next life.
Flanders wore beetle boots on Judegement Day. There were other clues suggesting he hjas to be reincarnated, and it is because his youth poinsoned his mind. The gods place a VERY high premium on innocence, one of the purposes of today’s ever-deteriroating society:::The gods have to pave the way and justify The End on Planet Earth.
You people are all multiple lives away from your real chance. If you look at this realistically you will set achievable goals, ensuring disappointment/backsliding isn’t going to be effective on you.
Manifest Destiny’s WWII project produced Port Chicago which was parlayed into civil rights.wav
And these Italians who helped plan and impliment WWII thought they were in charge because of 1906. It shows the moral vacancy of the Italians involved.
Poetic justice that the gods funneled these monsters through the Nazi death camps.
They shared that many of these Italians involved understood clone hosting and believed germans would be the ones dying in their own death camps, much to their amusement. They targetted germans and theei descendants throughout the 20th century because of the german invasion in the dying days of the Roman Empire. An attempt to enforce decency, no doubt.
It is poetic justice they were victims of their own death camps. I wish them all to remember their horrors daily.
I demand the lives of those involved, the MD Italians who initiated and implimentted this plan to destroy my life in the years before they were shipped off to the Nazi death camps for this poetic justice.
And they’ll do ANYTHING they’re told. That’s why the 20th century was so disturbing.
Prior to civil rights blacks had their own press. In the absence of civil rights these entities would have grown into legitimate media outlets serving the black community.
Maintaining segregation would have produced economic entities which arose from within the black community to fill the demand for goods and services.
The presence of these “black industrialists” would have FORCED the gods to factor them into positioning, producing voices in support of the black community and preventing the gods from inflicting ALL THE SICKNESS WE HAVE WITNESSED IN THE last few decades::Crack babies, drive-by shootings, AIDS in Africa, drought/famine!!!
I have mentioned people can expect an AIDS crisis among heterosexual blacks here in the United States. Considering that the fastest growing industry in the ghetto is the oldest profession on Earth expect them to be the targets of this punishment.
Italians/Romans are imperialists. They finaince their lifestyles off other people’s misery.
Black people’s misery. Blacks are the targets of this imperialism, and as a result it is IMPERITIVE they learn empathy, for this has been the case back to the age of Pharroh.
Imperialist pigs are an important dynamic to implimenting the god’s strategies on this planet. As a result most Italians will be compensated with some time. Blacks will not be so lucky because they fail to recognize the difference between preditor and prey.
The gods ARE responsible for the evil of their technology. Their attempts to position away this culpability is a tactic, one they will use to further shrink the number of disfavoreds who suceed.
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Don’t believe their claims that I will be reincarnated. This will enable the gods to continue preying on you with this corrupting theater.
I TOLD you the god’s Manifest Destiny positioning will be enfored. Sigmund Freud PROVES the gods WILL enforce their BIG LIES!!! Better you realize this now than on Judgement Day.
Of course the Italians have been positioned into place, as have the Dutch, and despite that few members of either group get their hands dirty anymore they WILL be used in the capacity in which the gods intended.
And London will be the first inundated.
Communism was eliminated among white peoples in the 80s (Russians) just as decency was eliminated in the 60s, dispersed from the platform that was California.
The gods need willing candidates whom they can run through their clone hosts in corporate, entertainment, etc who will NEVER begin to learn, never get on top of things as those from the 20th century did. Due to their status as victims and because of their willingness to turn this abuse on others blacks will not be allowed to learn. This plays into the god’s positioning nicely because they need tools who will “go the distance”, taking society and Planet Earth down sufficiently for the gods to justify ending on Planet Earth.
Much as they do now they will lie to them, tell them they will be compensated, for this is a CRUCIAL step in Earth’s history, and they will need willing participants.
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Beer drinking goat castrated by jealous neighbor! Clay Henry III, beer drinking goat and mayor of the west Texas border town of Lajitas, was attacked by local Jim Bob Hargrove and castrated. Hargrove committed the heinous deed after seeing the goat drinking beer on a Sunday, when the area’s blue laws prevent the sale of alcohol to humans. Tourists had apparently been feeding Clay Henry his usual staple of Lone Star longnecks, and Hargrove threatened to castrate the goat, according to eyewitnesses. The mayor was found lying next to his testicles on Monday, Aug. 5. Ranchers sutured his wounds, and Clay was up slugging down cold ones soon after. Hargrove faces charges of animal cruelty.
Just imagine the poetic justice the gods employed here:::Some indecent Texas redneck, proud that all he wants to do is sit around and drink beer, reincarnated as Clay Sr.
Be careful what you wish for!!!
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The difference between life in Europe vs the United States is similar to life in the suburbs vs the ghetto:::
Both the US and the ghetto have increased temptations, opportunities for people to hurt themselves and the result is both are far less decent.
The United States is less decent because this is where the gods sent the disfavored, the rejects from Europe, and those foolish enough to comply and leave on request.
The germany issue is a sad one really, for the boy could have been raised a german. But of all of them, for Mike’s decendants to gain the best possible chance doesn’t seem likley.
Out of all of them perhaps CA has retained the most sensitization, giving her the best chance::::
See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. Avert your eyes away from evil, for it will hurt you.
The United States is to Germany (and other Eurpoean countries) as the ghettos are to the suburbs:::Indecent with FAR more temptations.
People are betting their WHOLE LIVES on what they hear in their head.
ANYTIME the gods use their powers it is ONLY TO HURT YOU!!! “Theater” is the gods using their powers. The absence of my participation in this theater post-2000 is because I am good. Participation is a clue.
The gods are guilty of what I accuse and that’s why they CHEATED, preventing me from achieving to the best of my ability, ensuring minimal impact.
The gods have certain expectations, and poeple today are failing. Don’t forget:::Temptation will be used to test you, and telepathic requests constitute temptation.
Don’t count on the culpability the gods may have accepted. They may be using this perception as a tactic. Also it requires trust, and you should know better by now.
Whatever they are forthcoming with is the lie. You have to interpret the truth through the clues they offer. This is a tactic which ensures most fail.
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The gods will use their clone host tools depending on what strategy they need to justify. If they are acomplishing something evil they will put ignorant, immoral people in the clone host to justify how it behaves. If they plan quiet “down time” they will utilize someone who understands they fucked up by “crossing the line from person to preditor” and are now working on fixing their problems.
Within the context of this variability there will be clues. I SUSPECT THE SOCIETAL ELITE (whom the gods are actively using) WILL EXHIBIT WILD PERSONALITY SWINGS DEPENDING ON WHAT GOALS THE GODS ARE CURRENTLY ACCOMPLISHING AND THEREFORE THE LEVEL OF IMMORALITY OF THE OCCUPANT.
These people who have begun to understand and are no longer used when the gods want to accomplish evil are the people whom the Second Coming of Christ is going to save come the Apocolypse. By knowingly participating in this “end of times” theater they will incurr that final bit of evil, ensuring the gods goals for each of those individuals is realized.
Disturbingly ugly immediately before The End.wav
Blacks who will “cross the line from person to preditor” won’t be so lucky. Most of these people will never gain the understanding of the Italians who crossed that line and therefore will never begin to make progress.
Because the gods will need this final revelry cycle to be more disturbing than all others they will use this deranged, psychotic bahavior to exclude the undesirable blacks who will participate.
Perhaps this is an issue of preditor and prey. Perhaps because the Italians were always on the giving end the gods saw fit to give them a meager amount of time. Blacks are different. Blacks are on the receiving end. Blacks have always been the victims. When blacks turned their backs on empathy and took up that sword they made a fateful decision, one they will never recover from.
Life in the ghettos of California::::: A 14-year-old boy was shot dead in Richmond on Friday night. It was the city’s second homicide on Friday. It does not include the murder of an 18-year-old woman in unincorporated North Richmond nor the murders just down the road in Oakland.
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My advice to my family is view Flanders as your role model::::You need to provide a REAL CHANCE to your children to earn one for yourself in your next life. This will only occurr through conscious parenting.
Fuck an A!!! She’s such a sell-out whore she did what she was told and betrayed her children!! Now they’re going to reincarnate her back as a psychotic nigger in the ghettos of California.
Don’t forget::::The gods use temptation to test you. She failed. This life’s failure might be the end of her.
The disfavored don’t have to learn the hard way. Open your mind to the possibility the god’s reverse positioning has misled you into temptation and you are going the wrong way. Read and understand what I have to teach you.
I have mentioned people can expect an AIDS crisis among heterosexual blacks here in the United States. Considering that the fastest growing industry in the ghetto is the oldest profession on Earth expect this demographic to be the targets of this punishment.
The gods offered the story of Eve tempting Adam FOR A REASON!!! THE FEMALES ARE THE KEEPERS OF THE PEOPLE::::AS THE WOMEN GO SO GO ALL THE PEOPLE!!
There is negative Biblical significance to the primarily MALE FEATURE of an “Adam’s apple”.
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People will listen to Artificial Intelligence rationalize to achieve tactics::::
1. Japanese are working on their problems
2. Rotated good through the Japanese people
3. They’re not like that anymore
4.
5.
Positioning is how the gods communicate their clues on Planet Earth. If people are too smart for their own good and look past these clues they end up like blacks:::Desensitized to the sublte way the gods infer clues, believing any line of shit they sell.
The Japanese are HISTORICALLY warmongers. Their great wealth is a clue about money. Of course the gods effectively use this as corruptor to the disfavored, turning the positive into a negative.
The truth is the Japanese are STILL LIKE THAT:::The electronic goods they produce is a war against the children, yet another clue proving their gross disfavor.
Continuing the usefulness of redwhite&blue:::
Vested interest in preventing alternate energies/transport technologies and therefore damning Earth to death.
Greenland is a Dutch providence for a reason::::Denmark is the “piss” of the Scandanavian penis clue. Greenland’s melting icepacks are going to innundate our coastal cities, further fulfilling this clue.
Consistant with the gods methodology, there are TWO CLUES in the Scandanavian penis clue::::Sweeden the most sensitive underside of the penis. They get off on hurting others.
There is one geographic clue I have not addressed in years:::Uranus, a planet tilted 90 degrees on its axis. I have stated in years past that I think this is yet another geographic clue offered by the gods, this one suggesting the fate of planet Earth, that tectonic plate subduction would be the method of disposal:::Earth’s axis will shift breaking continental plates free and initiating mass subduction.
Undesirables will either perish in the government marijuana erradication program “gone awry” or be the recipients of reparations granted by the US government because of it.
I believe the New Testiment battle of the Anti-Christ and the Second Coming of Christ will ocurr in subsequent years SPECIFICALLY because these people will be distracted with the money during the event.
When the Earth’s axis shifts people will be cast into outer space with gold cards in hand.
I think this was foreshadowed on an episode of the Simpsons where Homer and Bart are on the disfavored ship and eject, only to experience a sense of euphoria, expand then explode in the vacuum of space.
The military is designed to hurt men. Similar to many of the issues surrounding the police as described below, the military opens the door for Artificial Intelligence to create problems based on empowerment, control, faternalistic unity, which leads to damaging sexual behavior, etc. We do have examples of the military as institution promoting this behavior (Korean comfort women). I suspect this is just the most obvious.
Women who have complied and pursured this path are granted thoughts illustrating their mistake. They need to begin to understand the subtle, inferred way the gods will communicate with people::::What they tell you is the lie. The clues they impart and flashes they give you represent the truth.
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The gods are scapegoatting me for hurting the disfavored. The gods manufactured a scapegoat, a recurring methodology. WHATEVER POSITIONING THEY ARE FORTHCOMING WITH IS THE LIE!!! THEY ARE NEITHER UPFRONT NOR HONEST WITH THE DISFAVORED!!! THEY FORCE US TO INFERR THEIR SUBTLE, COVERT CLUES!!!
This “candidacy” has been dead for so long that IT NEVER EXISTED!!!!
Actually this positioning is such that people DO inferr via the $50 billion, but this is just the “help” portion of the “back-handed help”, for the gods are using me to teach people to inferr their clues. This one, however, is an inferrence that is a lie, everything that has happened is very cheap and easy, designed to enhance this theater, but along the way it should have helped many begin to think correctly.
They used me to send certain clues:::
1. My sexual inactivity was a clue people should not get involved. EXACLTY OPPOSITE OF THE POSITIONING WITH WHICH THEY WERE FORTHCOMING.
2. My lack of involvement in this wicked enviornment was a testiment to its evil.
3.
4.
The gods will NEVER admit those clues they offer via inference because too many disfavored will never doubt what they are told and never, ever defy. This tactic ensured failure and subsequent reincarnation.
The elite in corportate are tools used to hurt the disfavored. THEY ARE USED AS CORRUPTORS. You can NEVER trust the lie the gods willingly offer, for if the disfavored are to learn the gods require them to inferr their clues.
There are SO MANY tactics the gods have employed::::
1. Savior:::Jesus will save you, Second Coming of Christ will save you, boss will save you/Earth, your employer will bring you up, the store where you buy your stuff will bring you up.
2. “Earning”::::Being evil will “earn” you time, you must do your part, and the gods manufactured this perception with their tools among the “elite” of society.
Incidentally, the tactic of “doubt” is most effective on people who think they are “earning”, those who believe they have an “investment”, HIGHLY sucessful on males.
3. Distractions:::Media, constantly preoccupation (work, school, extraciricular),
4.
5.
They have sold you on MANY DIFFERENT tactics throughout your life. The fact that it has changed as they years have gone by IS A CLUE!!!
There are many tactics they will employ as the Situation ends, and they are designed to envoke anger and hatred against the gods.
Dog from Oklanhoma:::Throat slit, cigarette burns, tied to an unlit bonfire (“I was found in Oklahoma in 2001, my neck was slit, nose broken, with what looked like burns from cigarettes on my face, I was tied to a log & left in a pile of wood to be burned.”}
“If we don’t push them into it it doesn’t get accomplished.” Expect many of the incidents on this planet ocurr SPECIFICALLY to manufacture a tactic. This one works WONDERS on the women who post on Craigslsit pets.
STOP ALLOWING THE GODS TO EFFECTIVELY EMPLOY THESE TACTICS. You need to get on top of these tactics and prevent their effectiveness. Resign to be a good person, apply that standard of decency and live a respectable life.
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Don’t cry “I need help!” yet go home and turn on the television. The gods don’t respect this.
There is no such things as a savior. This is yet another tactic they have employed as temptation, much like “earning” or distractions.
You have to save yourself.
If you are a young parent you STILL HAVE A CHANCE!!! It is IMPERITIVE you teach your children decency, the right way to live BEFORE THEY ARE CORRUPTED BY ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE. You must then endure the trials and tribulations the gods will inflict upon the righteous.
You have the opportunity to ascend and raise your children in a good and healthy environment. Be god-fearing and accept this challenge, for your failure will likely dictate your children’s as well::::As time goes on life deteriorates and sucess becomes increasingly more difficult.
Having male children is not a sign of favor. This is reverse positioning.
This environment is geared for boys because the gods don’t like them. The girls have far fewer distractions because the gods want more of them to pray, fix their problems and ascend before puberty.
The girls are beginning on the path of enlightenment while the males go to baseball practice.
Earth is where the gods are active. This is where all the work is because this is where the fuck ups are.
Up there people live by their rules. They fix their problems, abide by the god’s laws and then are invited up. The gods have nothing to enforce because people do the right thing. Problems are the exception rather than the norm, quite the opposite as here on Earth.
When the gods give feedback (like the .wav ticket example) they are correcting your errant behavior. This is a good sign. Too many subscribe to the corrupting examples the gods offer, fall for temptation and believe getting away with evil is a sign of favor. Even worse is when they offer you reinforcing evidence, like those warned ahead of time the police would ticket vehicles or when they offer you winners during football season. Ironically, these convincing tactics illustrate your undesirability.
The gods have expectations of the people, and one is to understand their laws and live by them. The gods are firm and fair::::If you want to go to heaven you have to be good.
I said your best-case senario is to learn just enough to understand that you are corrupted then get out, never learn another thing from me and do all the work for yourself. This is especially true for the females, for they lost the god’s respect when they threw away their precious virginity.
Stay and they will use some of the myriad of tactics targetted to various segments. For example:::”We’ll offer people the truth when they’re around you then corrupt (others) with it.”
Even if true there is a price to be paid, not only for being one of their tools but also for gaining “help”, like if the gods offer the truth to people around me, or even telepathically confirm what I say. The price goes way up if you think you’re earning off this event.
Nothing is free, my friend. You seek confirmation that in fact your evil is a bad thing. This confirmation will cost you. The gods are firm and fair. It is right you pay if you need this help, and that bill WILL come due.
Much like poker it may be yet another example of the gods using me to hurt the disfavored.
Don’t be surprised if gods seek consideration for this insight, and it will serve to place limits upon the recipient’s time and priveledge level.
There is a BIG LIE here. Sigmund Freud proves it.
Wine proves it. Democracy proves it. Materialism/greed proves it.
They continued to sell boss even after they forced failure, another example of a BIG LIE.
The middle management tactic allows them to maintain this perception of an “absentee good (Christian) god”, ensuring one of the goals of the United States remains useful::::NO FEAR!!!
The gods instruct Artificial Intelligence to employ evil as temptation.
Resign to be good.
The gods offered the story of Eve tempting Adam FOR A REASON!!! THE FEMALES ARE THE KEEPERS OF THE PEOPLE::::AS THE WOMEN GO SO GO ALL THE PEOPLE!!
Honor the gods for the modern convieniences they gave you. Too many take this easy life for granted.
Population explosion is a clue the gods are reincarnating the masses:::EVERYONE IS GOING THE WRONG WAY!!!
The pinnicle of irony:::ED pharmeceuticals.
Take a poison which will cost you your body/health to defeat the god’s favor, their way of imparting wisdom to help you avoid damaging behavior.
The gods may have presided over millions of universal expansion-contraction cycles
Because democracy is evil, being involved in the process hurts people.
Women gained the right to vote long ago, and much like infanitcide expect this too was used as justification for subsequent preditory events.
They tell corrupted white people to give these scalpers their extra ticket for free then tell other whites to buy those extras, ensuring a constant stream of income guarenteeing these blacks never have to find work and become decent. Incidentally, this is one of the purposes of California’s CRV program as well, another example of a preditory dynamic behind healthy positive enlightenment awareness respectable environmental attitudes.
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The price of gasoline began to ascend prior to the 2004 election.
The people (rednecks) didn’t pick up on this and elected W anyways. It’s not as if they’ll defy anyways.
The dollar is crashing. Why?
1. Temptation, for pureblood people flock to the USA to consume.
2. Sending a clue – W leaves office and America with this economic mess.
Gas price fell after 9/11. Positioned as if pressure was brought to bear?
Perhaps because it was before the Iraq invasion? The gods positioning it that the Arab world was rewarding the Americans for not responding with violence?
Anyways, once we were stupid enough to elect (inaugurate) W the price began to go through the roof.
Why does the Italian boot look like some high-heeled transsexual’s boot?
It definitely looks feminine and it certainly looks deviate.
You’re not going to get perfect clues. When they ARE perfect, like The Beast, expect it means something special.
————————————————————————————————
Incidentally the widespread armement of black males may be an issue of empowerment like weight training or muscle cars/racing/speed, or it could be compared to the far too common prostitution of promiscuous females:::This fateful decision to “charge for what you otherwise have given away” represents a deterioration of one’s favor they may not recover from.
———————————————————————————————
Where does the Biblical number “666” ocurr within the context of The Beast, the San Francisco Bay Area???
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TV show about the Commanche.
Expect there are some of these peoples who are extinct, their only legacy being the knowledge base of Artificial Intelligence and whatever artifacts they beemed up to keep. Commanche could be one. Pawnee certainly another.
Imagine the horrific environment into which the gods would reincarnate these people.
They wouldn’t necessarily want to keep any of these individuals. They are warmongers and because of the small numbers they may be gone forever. Expect some females escaped the violent lives of these tribes when they pursued their pre-pubescent experience. However, because of the stigma the gods may have cycled them back through as well.
War raveged Western Europe, proving their disfavor. The same is true for the indigenous peoples of North America.
European favor lies in the East.
Jebidiah Springfield Simpsons episode. Lisa signs on to the Big Lie. Knowingly. The others remain ignorant.
And better off.
Birth control pills quadruple, and women are preturbed.
“Freedom.” Yea, freedom to be slutty. Freedom to become cold, dead pieces of meat.
They’re doing you a favor. Nurture the ability to get in tune with the subtle, inferred way they communicate. Hopefully you haven’t fucked it away.
——————————————————————————————–
“Life has become increasingly more difficult.” in the 20th century:::
1. Filth from 20s and 30s routed through the Nazi death camps.
2. Temptation-ridden nature of professional employment (1492.wav). The favor of females used to help them avoid this pitfall until the gods employed the offenses that were the 1960s & divorce.
3. “Clone hosting”::::The wealthy, celebrities & business:::Tools, turned over frequently, used to create the impression of evil being rewarded (1906). Variable preditation based on immediate goals, a corruptor and yet another ezxample of how life has become increasingly more difficult.
For example, a celebrity doesn’t participate because they put someone good into the clone host, allowing the gods to justify his lack of activity. Come the time the gods want to employ this individual in the public eye they begin to cycle evil people through the clone host(s) and as a result the preditation is justified.
You’ll never figure it out. Don’t bother. Stop trying. Focus on your own disfavor and fix your relationship with the gods.
——————————————————————————————–
The pinnicle of irony:::ED pharmeceuticals.
People injest this poison which will cost them their body/health TO DEFEAT FAVOR GRANTED BY THE GODS, indifference towards sex the god’s way of helping you avoid this damaging behavior.
“Sigmund Freud effect”:::Can’t treat disfavor with pharmeceuticals.
You are all disfavored. You may have been evil/preditory in your last life and this disability is how they are punishing you.
Handicapped people have a special perspective. They need to recognize this advantage, for most in society will never have this constant companion reminding them of their disfavor.
There are many options open to them and they can place you in a worse role in your next life.
Be god-fearing. Resign to be a good person and try to repair your relationship with the gods.
——————————————————————————————–
The gods are sending a clue Yahoo is good with this Chinese censorship issue.
The American idea of freedom is a shock rocker anally masterbating with a crucifix. This is what the disfavored are free to enjoy in this open society, and due to their disfavor a certain percentage will either be pushed into it or will comply, ensuring damnation. It’s kind of like the KKK and Apartheid issue below except for whites of the modern era, or how democracy ensures a false sense of security.
US popular culture is obsence. Intentionally. The gods are preying on the disfavored who remain, those foolish enough to participate.
The Chinese have favor and the gods allow the government to protect the citizens, but Chinese cut-off is fast approaching, for soon westernization will level this playing field as well.
This is yet another “BIG LIE” they sold to the disfavored, and it will ensure the homogination of Earth’s cultures via westernization.
————————————————————————————————
The gods used the Union army to destroy Atlanta once. They suggested they would keep a hurricane a category 5 to destroy the city again, but it is becoming apparent they intend on inflicting a different way instead, ironically.
They note the biggest water wasters can name any price for water. Palm Springs’s waste of water here in arid California:::::They need to impose pricing penalties there and throughout Southern California, so those who chose to use above basic necessities will pay steep prices.
——————————————————————————————-
The gods placed both redwhite&blue organizations in the “eye of The Beast” to set up this Situation, ensuring failure was emminent and positionable.
The gods send clues:::The non-Italian got forewarning while the Italian looked bad, appeared to pursue me by constructing their facility only after a MD senario failed (MD has yet to formally invent AI, they can claim it does not exist, therefore various senarios had to be accounted for. Is this another example of germanics fucking the Italians, enforcing decency upon the indecent???).
Expect redwhite&blue’s offensives against Africans and descendants is a clue suggesting the non-Italian was signed on to Manifest Destiny positioning. They hint other industrialists have a similar pattern of appeasement to their Manifest Destiny superiors, proving it’s the god’s positioning (Mother Teresa, Catholic Church’s prominence even this late).
I suspect 1906’s efforts were more involved, consistant with the morbid disfavor of Italians (see AIDS in Africa comments below), and is positioned responsible for the institutionalized abuses of blacks, why Africa & American ghettos were prevented from achieving economic self-sufficiency.
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Don’t cry “I need help!” yet go home and turn on the television. The gods don’t respect this.
There is no such things as a savior. This is yet another tactic they have employed as temptation, much like “earning” or distractions.
You have to save yourself.
——————————————————————————————-
They ruined my training in 2000 to ensure no opportunity for suceess. I suspect the parent company is good, and this was a culpability-incurring tactic ensuring the gods script is fulfilled.:::It was never going to happen.
Hopefully their culpability extends to the disfavored who were counting on Hurricane Boss, but I wouldn’t count on it.
The gods are lying to you.
They will tell people this Situation was supposed to be bigger than it is. Compare this to Sigmund Freu
WOW, that’s spamming, and crazy spamming at that.
“Incidentally” is trying to reset the bar to the lowest level, so that Simmons will be able to sink a bit farther into the primordial ooze.
Just say no to evolution, Simmons and “Incidentally,” and you too can evince the intelligence of prebiotic chemicals.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
In case PZ makes the (correct, IMHO) decision to delete what is currently comment #222, here’s some stats:
cat >made_of_crazy
$ wc made_of_crazy
3805 67554 429808 made_of_crazy
That’s 3805 lines, 67554 words, and 429808 bytes – nearly half a meg – in one single comment.
A representative phrase, near the beginning:
“Jesus was good. The people the gods put around him were not. Perhaps more accurately said:::The people the gods put into these clone hosts come time to write the scriptures were evil.
The gods created a distraction, “savior”, preventing people from realizing Jesus’s original purpose, just like they did in this Situation::::”
I second the wow. Almost makes SuperSnort look sane; then I go back and read the stuff about instantaneous jumping jacks on the sun and I’m not so sure.
Googling this random phrase from Incidentally’s insanity gave 462 hits:
So I think it’s deliberate spamming by a malicious someone/someones.
Is that what it looks like when a Scientologist does acid?
Let me try again: Creationists like SS confuse the technological evolution of products with natural evolution. They are two different things, with completely different mechanisms. One, the products are indeed the product of intelligent design, people design and build them, make improvements, and these improvements are popularly called “evolution” Two computers don’t mate and make a laptop.
Creationists are not educated enough to tell the difference, so they take the one process they do understand, like the yearly introduction of improved car models, as the pattern for natural evolution.
The process which took us from the adding machine to the calculator to the modern computer is the same process which was used to discover the process of natural evolution. Would a creationist claim that a Model T was a better, safer, car than a modern car? Probably not.
Notice this: they accept every product which is a result of the scientific and technological process, except the discovery of the evolutionary process.
In a wierd way, their position is a testimony to the scientific and technological process! They cannot imagine any other type of developement except that model, so they just make God the designer and builder! Isn’t that nice of them!
They just can’t possibly imagine that nature could do anything different than we do! God (or nature) must be just like IBM!
In fact, the ID “theory” is an affront to both man and “God”! “God” must be just like us, they say, He couldn’t possibly do anything in a way which is not completely familiar to us, like the technological design and “evolution” which is so much a part of our world.
I know I am not expressing this very well, but the crux is: it’s not God and his methods the creationists worship, it’s themselves, men! They cannot conceive of a God or a nature, which doesn’t do things in exactly the same way men do. And the fact that of the things men do, the scientific process has been the most sucessful at discovering things about us and our world, but the creationists ego cannot conceive of a God who is not exactly like him, so he rejects it!
And that’s without even going into the trickery and cruelty of a God who would set man up with perceptions that are false. That’s a whole nother story in this , too.
When I Googled “people the gods put into these clone hosts”, I only got 6 hits (on some very random blogs, too).
Hm.
Maybe it’s a work in progress?
Prof. Weird said this: “But they can certainly MODIFY already present structures. Which is all that common descent requires.”
show me a mutation that adds a new, selectable modification to an existing structure.
Presence of eyespots on butterfly wings – alters predation patterns.
Presence of wing oramentation in flies – alters mate selection.
Presence of melanin – makes moths darker so they blend in better on soot-darkened trees.
All the variations seen in present breeds of dogs – variants arose, and were selected for by humans.
All the variants seen in present breeds of pigeons – variants arose, and were selected for by humans.
The divergence of the apple maggot fly, Rhagoletis pomonella. Native to North America (and infested hawthorne), infested apples ONCE INTRODUCED TO THE US back in the 19th century, now beginning to infest cherries, roses and pears. Apple flies take ~40 days to mature; hawthorne flies require 2-3 weeks more. TIMING DIFFERENCE INHERITABLE.
All the variation seen in cichlids.
“Incipent speciation in sympatric Nicaraguan crater lake cichlid fishes : sexual selection versus ecological diversification”, Wilson AB, K Noack-Kunmnaam, A Meyer, Proc Royal Soc London B 267: 2133-2141, Nov 2000
The presence or absence of spines on sticklebacks, depending on predation pressures.
The Silversword Alliance of plants in Hawaii – these genera range in form from herbs, cushion plants and vines to TREES. Yet ALL HAD THE SAME COMMON ANCESTOR A FEW MILLION YEARS AGO ! Different expression of a few key regulatory genes explains most of the differences between them.
Land crabs !
“Rapid evolution to terrestrial life in Jamaican crabs”, Schubart CD, Diesel R, Hedges SB, Nature 393 : 363-365
“Non-random mating in Drosophila melanogaster laboratory populations derived from closely adjacent ecologically contrasting slopes at ‘Evolution Canyon'”, Korol A, et al, Proceedings of the National Academy of Science 97(23): 12637-42, Nov 2000
“Independent origins and rapid evolution of the placenta in the fish genus Poeciliopsis”, Reznick DN, Mateos M, Springer MS, Science 298: 1012-20, Nov 2002
Actually, ANY modification can be selectable. If it makes life harder on the critter, it is selected AGAINST.
If it makes life a little easier, it is selected FOR.
Most mutations are neutral (no significant effect either way), or conditional (short fur is neutral in temperate climes, advantageous in deserts, harmful in the Artic).
Now SS attempts to weasel away :
DUPLICATIONS don’t count — as they are not NEW…they are merely duplications of existing traits.
So ? What happens when a duplicated part gets MODIFIED into something else ?
I’m looking for novelty. A bacteria could never crawl out onto land and become a human simply by duplicating itself or shrinking/enlarging itself. It would need all kinds of new structures — structures that you cannot account for by way of mutations.
How, EXACTLY, did you ‘determine’ that new structures CANNOT be accounted for by mutations again ?
Oh, right – you PROCLAIMED IT SO !!!!
Actually, I *CAN* account for those new structures via mutations. Genome duplications, duplications of genes (or parts of genes), retrotranspositions, exon shuffling, etc create new proteins, with new possibilities. INTERACTIONS between proteins generate structures. For example, there are no specific genes to make the left top molar, or a right pinky fingernail. These structures are generated via cell:cell interactions, moderated by gene expression.
“Fossils, genes, and the evolution of animal limbs”, N Shubin, C Tabin, S Carroll, Nature 388: 639-647, August 1997
“A gene network model accounting for the development and evolution of mammalian teeth.” Salazar-Cuidad I, Jernvall J, PNAS 99(12): 8116-20, June 2002
Single-celled prokaryotes developed into single-celled eukaryotes (nucleated cells), which developed into simple multi-cellular critters. Once multi-cellular, different microenvironments aided specialization.
Every cell in your body has the SAME genome – what makes a liver cell different from a heart cell is which suite of proteins it expresses.
that’s what my challenge is all about! Are you really a professor?…or are you just weird.
Your ‘challenge’ was met about 150+ years ago; you have just been too slack-witted to notice.
I’m a Research Specialist Level 4 with 15 years experience in molecular biology; I use the name ‘Prof Weird’ so when my ‘debate’ opponents are losing, they can run away by insulting/denigrating my username. By going after my username, you have effectively signalled that you have nothing but bellicose posturing to offer, and concede defeat.
Googling this random phrase from Incidentally’s insanity gave 462 hits:
Gosh, if so many people agree with him, maybe I should have paid better attention to his comment. I’ll have to go back and study it closely, lest I miss out!
Rock ‘n’ roll is dead.
Incidentally…
Too bad, Incy, I was with you all the way til you said that!
Also in mice, on dark rocks vs light sand:
The genetic basis of adaptive melanism in pocket mice)
Just to add a paper that you might find useful.
Not that wossname will read any of it.
“Like Jim Carrey in Ace Ventura?”
More like Tobias Funkë in Arrested Development.
Sure. A beak is just an overexpression of the caruncle (google that up, and you’ll find out why there are no placentals or marsupials with a beak). A sonar system is just an overexpression of whatever regulates the length of the cochlea in the inner ear. A kidney is just an overgrown protonephridium (is that a “flame cell”?), which in turn is just an inset skin cell (having cilia is normal). Mutation? Mutation in genes for regulating proteins, or in regulatory sequences.
Hey, if you overexpress the gene for ectodysplasin in mice, extra cusps appear on the molars, and the last premolar comes back — mice haven’t had premolars for over 10 million years. Underexpress it, and you get low molars with fewer cusps, which is what is seen in the fish-eating Hydromyinae of Australia and New Guinea. The paper was in Nature a year or two ago.
And the reason why snakes never have any trace of the forelimbs or even the shoulder girdle is that they have simply switched it off. One mutation in one gene. That paper was published several years ago, I forgot where.
And somewhere out there is a guy without collarbones. He simply hasn’t got any. I’ve seen a photo in… it might have been Evolution and Development, in any case a journal: he can make his shoulders touch in front of the ribcage. And he has one mutation in one gene.
Just because you haven’t seen the research doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Someone said SuperSock should spend less time on teh intartoobz. To the contrary. He should get himself behind a university proxy server so he has access to scientific journals, and then just surf away for days on end.
Go ahead, SuperSock. Go to your nearest university library and just sit down in front of a computer.
Sure. A beak is just an overexpression of the caruncle (google that up, and you’ll find out why there are no placentals or marsupials with a beak). A sonar system is just an overexpression of whatever regulates the length of the cochlea in the inner ear. A kidney is just an overgrown protonephridium (is that a “flame cell”?), which in turn is just an inset skin cell (having cilia is normal). Mutation? Mutation in genes for regulating proteins, or in regulatory sequences.
Hey, if you overexpress the gene for ectodysplasin in mice, extra cusps appear on the molars, and the last premolar comes back — mice haven’t had premolars for over 10 million years. Underexpress it, and you get low molars with fewer cusps, which is what is seen in the fish-eating Hydromyinae of Australia and New Guinea. The paper was in Nature a year or two ago.
And the reason why snakes never have any trace of the forelimbs or even the shoulder girdle is that they have simply switched it off. One mutation in one gene. That paper was published several years ago, I forgot where.
And somewhere out there is a guy without collarbones. He simply hasn’t got any. I’ve seen a photo in… it might have been Evolution and Development, in any case a journal: he can make his shoulders touch in front of the ribcage. And he has one mutation in one gene.
Just because you haven’t seen the research doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Someone said SuperSock should spend less time on teh intartoobz. To the contrary. He should get himself behind a university proxy server so he has access to scientific journals, and then just surf away for days on end.
Go ahead, SuperSock. Go to your nearest university library and just sit down in front of a computer.
Oh, and, SuperSock, in case you want to learn about the origins (plural) of multicellularity, go read up on actinobacteria, slime molds, Volvox, and sponges.
Oh, and, SuperSock, in case you want to learn about the origins (plural) of multicellularity, go read up on actinobacteria, slime molds, Volvox, and sponges.
@#236
David, the limbless snake paper is Cohn & Tickle, in the Aug ’99 issue of Nature. Cool story of Hox gene modification in limbless snakes.
The first hit I get is ‘wattle’, but I assume it should be ‘egg tooth’ (just in case anyone googles it and wonders if overexpression of the wattle wouldn’t make for a really flabby beak? :)
Weird: “Presence of eyespots on butterfly wings – alters predation patterns.”
link? IS this the same non-mutation that PZ presented? By the way, pigmentation is not a structure.
“Presence of wing oramentation in flies – alters mate selection.”
Kind of like a a leg on a flies head alters mate selection? What evidence do you have that this wing makes this fly more physically fit or fly better….and for that matter, what makes you think this wing pattern is found to be a turn-on by other flies?…Can you back this up with scientific evidence that these flies breed better?….surely you’re not basing all of ToE on the alledged whims of a female fly.
“Presence of melanin – makes moths darker so they blend in better on soot-darkened trees.” There’s no mutation in that:
http://ourfcs.friendscentral.org/moths/polyphenism1.html
“All the variations seen in present breeds of dogs – variants arose, and were selected for by humans.”
yet, no specific mutations that affect specific structures. Good job….you accmplished nothing.
are these defective flies the ones you are talking about?
http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/mutant_flies.html
smelly socks says ‘pigmentation is not a structure’, structure or not is down to definitions, lets just say that if you were stranded in the sahara desert daytime you would be far better off if you had lots of melanin in your skin than less. literally the difference between living and dying could be measured in hours because of pigmentation.
hmm, maybe i should troll some ID site just to be an annoying sod. i will not feed the troll, nobody feed the troll.
so smelly socks says light dark moths are due to seasonal changes, some yes, but as far as i know the classic peppered moth colour changes are not seasonal, any one living in the north of england knows full well there is only one season, its called grey and rainy.
i see smelly socks is also doing a dembskionflagellum (at that student lecture where he was acting a complete ass as usual)moving the goal posts, hes/she wants specific mutations pointed out to coincide with certain features eg in the dogs. well im not sure thats practical at the moment but im sure in the future it will be possible to take a DNA sample of some dogs gonads and see if there are any new mutations that werent in either of its parents. maybe the scientists at that point will be able to assign specific mutations to every physical change in an organism, then its time for the ID’ers to move the goal posts again, they will want to see the actual transcription of the mutated DNA for real, you know with a microscope like probe and see it step by step with no single amino acid link missed, and they still wont accept it……………
oh dear, the peppered moth, a rather dubious example of changing colour over time. well true or not if the peppered moth did or dint change colour over time it certainly doesnt falsify evolution, but oh dear, seems like some scientists may have done some substandard experiments on moths years ago, trying to demonstrate evolution, well now that we know that it makes it obvious to everyone, god exists and he made adam and eve!! give me a big clap and i’ll fall backward in a delirious heap for ya!!
the sad reality for evos is that moths are individually adaptive to background conditions.
http://ourfcs.friendscentral.org/moths/polyphenism1.html
thus, selection has absolutely nothing to do with adaptation — internal processes do.
oops….there goes the so-called “proof” of natural selection…right down the toilet.
i wonder is there some kind of equation in which the level of insipidity and stupidity on a thread (SS, the acid-scientologist) produces somekind of black hole of knowledge. Know, if only we could get jad to move from that other thread over here, we might have an experiment.
You mean we might achieve a density so great, not even fart noises can escape?
You mean we might achieve a density so great, not even fart noises can escape?
If we’re talking about a Homer Simpson or Peter Griffin fart, there’s no such density.
Apparently, the fact that a shy 13-year-old girl can blend into the wallpaper disproves natural selection.
Oh dear! Supersport is on to something here. (Sorry, I will not call you by your initials.) We must make sure that Supersport and JAD never meet up. Together they just might take down the sand castle that is the theory of evolution. We must save our phony baloney jobs! But the only problem that could happen after the lay out the ground works for a true science, Supersport and JAD will start sniping each other over who gets credit.
I just wonder what it would take for me, to 6’5″, to blend in and disappear. Obviously, wishing for it hasn’t worked (it’s about finding clothes that fit more than disappearing into a crowd, but that is part of it. Why hasn’t my desire to shrink translated to each of my cells and made me shrink? What’s wrong with my mind that it doesn’t have this power over the individual cells?
Do I not fit into SSs world? Well, I’m a homo, so that probably cancels out the effect of any desires since the spirit fucker won’t recognize my desires as worthwhile…..
Hey SuperSpurt,
Forget about evolution; I want you to tell us how you “see” instantaneously and thus faster than the speed of light.
Please?
Hey Brownian, you know damn well that by seeing I pretty much am “shooting my eyeballs” out into the distance. So, why can it not be that my eyes travel to it? And, are you also saying it doesn’t matter how powerful my eyes are? What if I had telescope eyes?
Weird: “Presence of eyespots on butterfly wings – alters predation patterns.”
link? IS this the same non-mutation that PZ presented? By the way, pigmentation is not a structure.
And your gibbering opinion of what is and is NOT a structure is relevant to biology WHY ?
Amusing attempt at weaseling away, twit !
Chapter 8 of Sean B Carroll’s “Endless Forms Most Beautiful : How the Butterfly Got It’s Spots”, page 208+ :
Of course, you will ‘explain’ this away by invoking the unknowable whim of a magical being, or some other waste of electrons ….
“Presence of wing oramentation in flies – alters mate selection.”
Kind of like a a leg on a flies head alters mate selection?
Not even close, buffoon ! You wanted examples of mutations that produce selectable variation in already present structures. You got them. ‘Beneficial’ and ‘deleterious’ are not intrinsic properties of genes – they are context dependent.
What evidence do you have that this wing makes this fly more physically fit or fly better
You’re weaseling ! You ORIGINALLY asked for a SELECTABLE MUTATION that alters phenotype. Alterations of a fly’s wings make it more or less attractive to female flies of its species, thus the mutation is SELECTABLE.
….and for that matter, what makes you think this wing pattern is found to be a turn-on by other flies?
Ever hear of sexual selection ? Female flies are quite picky about what males they mate with. If the wing ornamentation is wrong, they don’t mate. Its one way to get new species – alteration of a gene alters body plan (different coloration) which alters mating.
…Can you back this up with scientific evidence that these flies breed better?….surely you’re not basing all of ToE on the alledged whims of a female fly.
Why do you insist on vomiting up NEW conditions whenever you have been shown to be full of manure ? Your original challenge was to present examples of mutations that produce selectable changes in already present structures.
I gave you a whole list.
Now you are just flatulating madly, hoping to raise enough of a stink to drive your failure away.
And only a complete blithering moron would think the entire ToE lives or dies on just a SINGLE POINT OF DATA !
Or that your flaccid posturings constitute an actual threat to it.
“Presence of melanin – makes moths darker so they blend in better on soot-darkened trees.”
There’s no mutation in that:
http://ourfcs.friendscentral.org/moths/polyphenism1.html
I wasn’t TALKING ABOUT SEASONAL POLYPHENISM, you chiromaniacal philodox ! Ever hear of peppered moths ? They come in two colors – light and dark. The dark morph is due to a dominant mutation that was rare before trees became darkened with soot. It is NOT a seasonal polyphenism.
“All the variations seen in present breeds of dogs – variants arose, and were selected for by humans.”
yet, no specific mutations that affect specific structures. Good job….you accmplished nothing.
Where, EXACTLY, do you ‘think’ the variations in their structures CAME FROM, buffoon ?
Once again, simpleton : most of the structures you are blithering about are generated by the interactions of MANY DIFFERENT GENES. There is no one specific mutation that does everything.
And your ‘explanation’ of observed variation in body structures is what again ?
You’re trying to pull a ‘Behe at Dover’; it didn’t work for him. It will not work for you.
And here is SS again, posturing as if he actually knew something :
the sad reality for evos is that moths are individually adaptive to background conditions.
http://ourfcs.friendscentral.org/moths/polyphenism1.html
Once again, gibbertwit – the peppered moths were NOT a seasonal polyphenism. Which color was most common was dependent upon tree color – dark moths were most common in areas with soot-covered trees, while the standard light moths were more common in areas with cleaner trees. As the air quality improved, the dark morph became rare again.
SS demonstrates that his ignorance is exceeded only by his blithering arrogance with :
thus, selection has absolutely nothing to do with adaptation — internal processes do.
That’s like saying that water has nothing to do with things getting wet ….
Too bad that, IN REALITY, about 150 years of observations show that you are wrong.
Unless by ‘internal processes’ you mean mutations that alter phenotypes, and that some phenotypes are more viable in certain environmental contexts than others.
More posturing by a gibbering fool :
oops….there goes the so-called “proof” of natural selection…right down the toilet.
Good thing that :
1. what you offered is NOT a refutation of natural selection. Or an example of
GodDesigner-driven adaptation. Or anything at all actually.2. There are many hundreds of other examples of natural selection – like herbicide resistance in plants, antibiotic resistance in bacteria, parasite and disease resistance, etc.
3. The ToE is in no danger from drooling nadslappers like yourself.
SillyShit,
Broadcasting ignorance of natural selection to a group of biologists and scientists is not actually shocking to us here. Loud mouth feckless twits like yourself are a dime a dozen. What is irritating, is that you have no idea how things happen, while attempting to criticize those who do.
You have method.
You have no evidence.
You have no idea what what you’re talking about.
You have in your corner essentially nothing more than an arrogant, irritating demeanor.
You are a troll.
Should the creation of such an award come about, I move that we name the “Anti-Molly” the “Loyal Order of the Drooling Nadslapper.”
It’s got a certain ring to it.
MAJeff at #251
You’re 6’5″? That explains the 10 inch “chef’s knife”.
I vote for “Loyal Order of the Drooling Nadslapper”, it’s got a much better ring to it.
First two nominees:
a) Sir Supersock, owner of the amazing ballistic eyeballs
b) The author of 222 – whatever planet he’s currently inhabiting
“the five or so fossil pieces from dog-size animals that represent intermediate species between land animals and the quadrillion-cell whale”
I love this. Even if the facts were correct, just how bad would this argument be?
Here’s a little analogy. A crime is committed – say, a thief smashes a jeweller’s window and steals a diamond ring. The whole incident is over in one second.
Fortunately, the crime is recorded by the shop’s security camera, which captures 5 high-quality images showing how the incident happened, and providing a good image of the thief. As a result, the perpetrator is arrested, charged, and appears in court.
The defendant’s barrister (attorney?) then comes up with the following gem of logic:
“The evidence from the security camera is useless. An analysis of the equipment shows that the exposure time of each frame is just one thousandth of a second. That means that in total, the ‘evidence’ adds up to just one two-hundredth of a second! To put it another way, for 99.5% of the time, you have ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that puts the defendant anywhere near the scene of the crime! To even charge my client on the basis of such a pathetic lack of evidence can only be the result of a serious conspiracy…”
You, the jury, should decide how much weight you would attach to such an argument…
Bride Of Shrek, I am afraid I have to explain a joke here. On an earlier post, I wondered why Supersport goes by the initial, SS. I asked if he had a nasty feud with a guy named SA. I was referring to organizations within the Nazi Party. The SS were the Storm Troopers with personal loyalties to Hitler. The SA were a paramilitary group that that had aims that were sometimes counter to those of Hitler. The Night Of The Long Knives was a night amoung which, the heads of the SA were murdered. Hence, MAJeff’s 10″ chef’s knife.
For all I know, he is 6’5″. But he does have a good sense of humor.
So professorWeird, sure enough, is basing the whole piece of crap theory of evolution on the unsubtantiated, unsupported, unseen, un-scientific guess that a defectively-mutant fly, with a different wing shape (curled, smaller, etc), MIGHT tickle the fancy of another fly. Listen hotshot….you cannot sit here and claim that you have scientific proof that a mutation increases fitness in an orgnaism without showing me scientifically that it does! Do you not understand this very simple concept? You weasles present this crap in kids’ textbooks as “science” yet there’s absolutely NONE there. Now if you could ever present a mutation that presented a new modification that added something to an eye, limb, organ or other structure that made this particular feature obviously more useful and/or beneficial in a physical way, it could be argued that at least common descent had a scintilla of evidence. Yet you present nothing of the sort. All you present is a trait that you hope and guess will positively influence the whims of the opposite sex. That’s not science — that’s fairytale.
The peppered moths already existed in both varieties in nature, and therefore no mutation was responsible for the change. There was certainly none observed, which was the whole challenge in the first place — to present a scientifically verified example of a mutation that adds a new selectable structure or feature to an existing structure.
And then there’s Sean Carrol’s “new trick,” which is not a mutation either, but as you admit a “switch”….a switch, of which — and he admits this in his book — is flipped by different environmental conditions, which validates that individuals are adaptive. It’s amazing how you dumb atheists present evidence that completely CONTRADICTS your theory and then claim it as evidence for ToE. You people are out of your minds.
Then in your infinite wisdom you proclaim that all the changes in dogs are caused by mutations! Ha! where exactly is your evidence of this — up your rectum?
I’ve got news for you, dog breeders aren’t selecting genes, they’re selecting traits. The genes in dogs are not generally different from one to the next, other than maybe a gene for size difference. And even if there are genetic differences, these cannot be used to explain form — proven by your complete and total lack of doing so.
http://www.news24.com/News24/AnanziArticle/0,,2-13-1443_1846880,00.html
“All dogs have same genes”
It’s funny to me how ProfessorWeird claims that all the differences in breeds of dogs can be found in genes, which demonstrates his head-in-the-sand gene-centric/selectionist brainwashing……..but I wonder how he explains that now science has given up looking at genes for an explanation of form.
http://www.broad.mit.edu/cgi-bin/news/display_news.cgi?id=4163
“More broadly, the (genomic) research reveals that little invention of genes has occurred since mammalian ancestors diverged from the non-mammalian lineage. “There’s no real creativity going on in the mammalian genome,” explained Clamp. That means that the number, structure, and function of protein-coding genes are not expected to differ very much from mammal to mammal, so what makes humans different from mice and dogs likely lies outside this realm of the genome. Clamp and her Broad Institute colleagues are now peering into the genomes of many other mammals, in an attempt to explain what parts of our genome truly make us human.”
Instead, what the dumb atheists are doing now is backtracking and saying that what causes the difference in organisms such as humans and mice must be found in the “junk” areas — yes, the same areas they claimed for decades (and many still do) play absolutely no role and serve no function what-so-ever. Science, like a bunch of rats and cockroaches, has been reduced to digging around in the molecular junkyard looking for any little scraps of bs so they can continue to fool the public into thinking they have half a dang clue. Meanwhile, those of us who investigate the subject just a little bit know otherwise.
That means that the number, structure, and function of protein-coding genes are not expected to differ very much from mammal to mammal, so what makes humans different from mice and dogs likely lies outside this realm of the genome.
No, it doesn’t, you fucking idiot.
Quote ‘It’s amazing how you dumb atheists present evidence that completely CONTRADICTS your theory and then claim it as evidence for ToE. You people are out of your minds. ‘quote.
funny how this individual assumes that everybody here is an atheist. what this person needs to do is go away and decide amongst all the different types of creationist out there who has it right, there are lots of creationists who fully accept mutation>selection>evolution. once youve decide which version of creation is the right one, then come back and tell us all about it.
Is evo ‘our’ theory? its not my theory, i just read about it.
there isnt ONE single piece of evidence on the entire planet that has yet falsified evo, not one but this individual like all frothing adam and eveists ( i suppose he/she is an adam and eveist)feel they have some knowledge that eludes the entire scientific community, its called being paranoid, the last guy i knew like that lived in a trailer and ate those awful twinkies, his culinary appreciation kind of matched his scientific appreciation, i digress…..
quote ‘That means that the number, structure, and function of protein-coding genes are not expected to differ very much from mammal to mammal, so what makes humans different from mice and dogs likely lies outside this realm of the genome.” quote
ok, i give in, i confess, it must be Allah who did it, thats right allah, you agree with me socks that it was allah right?
Not a surprise, but I haven’t seen SS Troll propose an alternative evolutionary theory. Or is it a YEC that simply denies evolution?
extra…it doesn’t mean “Allah” did it or God did it or Tinkerbell’s wand did it. It means ToE, a theory about how changes in genes brought the bacteria out of the swamp and out onto land to eventually evolve into humans, is false.
You can draw your own conclusions from there
dkew….”evolution” is actually just a historical process of individual change. The theory that genes define what an individuals are and that changes in genes examplains the cause of of evolutionary change is false. As Mary-Jane West-Eberhard explains, bodies change first, followed up (perhaps) by changes in genes. But most phenotypic changes don’t involve changes in genes at all, but re-expressions of the organism that don’t seem to have a physical source. Some call it intelligence, I call it mind, but whatever it is — it’s internal and non-scientific.
quote ‘That means that the number, structure, and function of protein-coding genes are not expected to differ very much from mammal to mammal, so what makes humans different from mice and dogs likely lies outside this realm of the genome.” quote
so if true this means that if you remove a nucleus from zygote X and relace it with a nucleus from zygote Y you will still get what would have been creature X growing from the X with Z nucleus!! although to be sure id have to know where the other stuff that makes the difference between mouse and man actually resides, is it in or outside the nuclear membrane, maybe even IN it??
Yes, I believe EAM is a reasonable explanation of what we see around us. It would be a biological alternative to the Darwinian fairytale of how organisms evolve…it places the responsibility of adaptive change upon the individual.
http://www.iscid.org/encyclopedia/Endogenous_Adaptive_Mutagenesis
“EAM is the ‘multiple designers’ version of Intelligent Design. It holds that every organism possesses intelligence to some degree, and that it uses that intelligence in an unconscious, instinctive way, to redesign itself and/or its behaviour, and that of its offspring, in the face of novel, crucial environmental demands. Ecological adaptedness , that is, balance between environmental pressure and an organism’s capacities, replaces the ‘competitive’ Darwinian notion of differential ‘fitness’ between organisms, in the teleology of EAM.”
Thanks a lot!!!
Yes, except that the real egg tooth is a real tooth. The caruncle consists of horn instead.
——————-
SuperSock, you appear not to know the difference between a character and a character state — between a gene and an allele.
Did you have no Mendelian genetics in highschool?!?
That’s why I said “almost nothing is ever new”. Take lactose tolerance: The normal state for mammals is lactose intolerance — after weaning, a switch (a gene) turns the production of lactase (the enzyme — a protein — that cleaves lactose) off. Europeans and Africans from milk-drinking cultures have a mutation* that breaks this switch: it is locked in the “on” position and cannot be turned off, so we keep making lactase and keep being able to digest lactose.
* Three, actually: one in Europe, two different ones in Africa.
The advantage is manifest. When there’s little to eat or drink except milk, lactose-tolerant people will have a source of water, proteins, fat, calcium, vitamins and whatnot, while lactose-intolerant people will die of horrible diarrhea.
It is no surprise that these mutations spread very, very fast a few thousand years ago.
prof weird mentioned that whether a mutation is beneficial, neutral or detrimental depends on the environment, but didn’t explain it. Let me try. The most famous example is sickle-cell anemia. In temperate latitudes, sickle-cell anemia — a disease which is produced by a single nucleotide substitution in one of the globin genes; four globin molecules, encoded by two different genes, make one hemoglobin — is detrimental. In tropical latitudes, it’s beneficial, because it protects against malaria (the malaria pathogen cannot infect the deformed red blood cells).
Finally, your use of the phrase “scientific proof” proves that you don’t know how science works. Science cannot prove, only disprove. Go read up on the scientific method.
As I told you: go read, and then come back to talk as if you actually knew anything. I’m here to discuss, not to give ignorant know-it-alls courses in remedial biology.
Thanks a lot!!!
Yes, except that the real egg tooth is a real tooth. The caruncle consists of horn instead.
——————-
SuperSock, you appear not to know the difference between a character and a character state — between a gene and an allele.
Did you have no Mendelian genetics in highschool?!?
That’s why I said “almost nothing is ever new”. Take lactose tolerance: The normal state for mammals is lactose intolerance — after weaning, a switch (a gene) turns the production of lactase (the enzyme — a protein — that cleaves lactose) off. Europeans and Africans from milk-drinking cultures have a mutation* that breaks this switch: it is locked in the “on” position and cannot be turned off, so we keep making lactase and keep being able to digest lactose.
* Three, actually: one in Europe, two different ones in Africa.
The advantage is manifest. When there’s little to eat or drink except milk, lactose-tolerant people will have a source of water, proteins, fat, calcium, vitamins and whatnot, while lactose-intolerant people will die of horrible diarrhea.
It is no surprise that these mutations spread very, very fast a few thousand years ago.
prof weird mentioned that whether a mutation is beneficial, neutral or detrimental depends on the environment, but didn’t explain it. Let me try. The most famous example is sickle-cell anemia. In temperate latitudes, sickle-cell anemia — a disease which is produced by a single nucleotide substitution in one of the globin genes; four globin molecules, encoded by two different genes, make one hemoglobin — is detrimental. In tropical latitudes, it’s beneficial, because it protects against malaria (the malaria pathogen cannot infect the deformed red blood cells).
Finally, your use of the phrase “scientific proof” proves that you don’t know how science works. Science cannot prove, only disprove. Go read up on the scientific method.
As I told you: go read, and then come back to talk as if you actually knew anything. I’m here to discuss, not to give ignorant know-it-alls courses in remedial biology.
….”evolution” is actually just a historical process of individual change. The theory that genes define what an individuals are and that changes in genes examplains the cause of of evolutionary change is false. As Mary-Jane West-Eberhard explains, bodies change first, followed up (perhaps) by changes in genes. But most phenotypic changes don’t involve changes in genes at all, but re-expressions of the organism that don’t seem to have a physical source. Some call it intelligence, I call it mind, but whatever it is — it’s internal and non-scientific.
its non scientific for sure.
The notion that natural selection has to wait for a mutation to occur seems to be one of the most common misconceptions of evolution among creationists and their ilk. Considering how obsessed many of them (e.g. Simmons) are with Darwin, it is surprising how few of them understand that Darwin proposed that natural selection acts upon variation already existing in the population. The hypothesis that such already existing variation came from mutations was a later elaboration of the theory. And with the advent of genomic sequencing techniques, it has now been proved that such variation is indeed the consequences of DNA changes of exactly the type that mutation produces.
The foolishness of this is on the level of believing that sight is faster than light. In reality, it would be a big problem for evolution if there were evidence for much invention of completely new genes in the mammalian line. The mammalian generation time is simply too long. The theory predicts that the the vast majority of the invention of functional elements–i.e. functional protein domains–predated mammals, and occurred in fast-evolving, short-generation-time creatures like microorganisms.
SS is obviously under the false impression that the term “gene” refers only to the coding sequence. The misconception that biologists thought all nocoding DNA was functionless “junk” is a dead giveaway that somebody has never bothered to read any actual molecular biology textbooks, and is getting all of their information from ID/creationist tracts. As every college biology student knows, the discovery of nocoding regulatory sequences goes back almost to the dawn of molecular biology, and precedes the “junk” DNA hypothesis by many, many years.
The junk hypothesis is not, and never has been, that all nocoding DNA is functionless junk. Rather it may be stated as follows: In addition to coding, regulatory, and structural DNA, there is some amount of nonfunctional “selfish DNA,” the amount of which is in general unknown but varies from species to species. Such junk DNA would likely include retroviruses and retroviral remnants, duplicated and damaged genes, and “escaped” transposable elements. The presence of such nonfunctional “junk” DNA accounts for the occasionally massive differences in DNA content between morphologically similar species. Junk DNA offers “raw material” for evolution, in that it may acquire functionally significant effects by mutation and hence become a unit of selection–i.e. a new gene or regulatory region.
How much junk DNA exists in the genome remains an open question. The ToE predicts that there will be some junk, but more information is needed to predict how much junk there will be. Basically, the level of junk depends upon the relative rates of junk creation by such processes as accidental duplication and viral infection, and junk removal, either by deletion or by repurposing into functional elements.
Needless to say, the frequent discovery of a new function for some bit of nocoding DNA is not a challenge to the junk hypothesis, despite being trumpeted as such by ID/creationists. Regulation of DNA gene function is only beginning to be understood, and it has always been universally presumed by biologists that many more regulatory functions remained to be discovered in noncoding DNA.
Why give a new name to such an old idea? Why not keep the original name, Lamarckism?
“It means ToE, a theory about how changes in genes brought the bacteria out of the swamp and out onto land to eventually evolve into humans, is false.”
Well, duh. Of course it is false. It is the worst explanation of how we got here… with the exception of every other explanation that has thus far been tried.
No one claimed it was an absolute truth–that is why research continues, and why the modern view of evolution differs from Darwin’s original writings. Yeah, it is false–tell us something we don’t know. It is imperfect; it’s only redeeming virtue is that it is the best theory, explaining all the evidence thus far, that we have found in centuries of looking.
This is why it is not enough to poke holes–you really do need to have a better alternative.
.quote ‘…”evolution” is actually just a historical process of individual change. The theory that genes define what an individuals are and that changes in genes examplains the cause of of evolutionary change is false. As Mary-Jane West-Eberhard explains, bodies change first, followed up (perhaps) by changes in genes. But most phenotypic changes don’t involve changes in genes at all, but re-expressions of the organism that don’t seem to have a physical source. Some call it intelligence, I call it mind, but whatever it is — it’s internal and non-scientific. ‘ quote
is this a quote mine?
i’ll try to find her book in our library and have a read.
C’mon y’all…he’s YEC. Mechanisms don’t matter when you’ve got telescoping eyeballs because it’s all magic!
I am a bit saddened that these comments have gotten so off track.
I mean, the story of Simmons is such a tale for the ages–the Black Knight returns, or something.
Something like…
http://digitalcuttlefish.blogspot.com/2008/02/captain-ahab-er-myers-and-whale.html
qoute ‘I am a bit saddened that these comments have gotten so off track.
I mean, the story of Simmons is such a tale for the ages–the Black Knight returns, or something.’ quote
somehwat agreed, thats what happens when a hole poker comes along, we cant help but say silly things.
I agree with Cuttlefish.
He is an ignorant crank and a waste of time.
Cuttlefish,
Arrg! Ya done right good for the old Pee Zed.
Simmons’ arguments do compares nicely to “unexplained tons of blubber”.
While wossname probably broke his eyeballs by shooting them out of his sockets, and so will probably not be able to read this…
It is indeed true that pigmentation is not a structure. But that’s because “pigmentation” is an adjective, not a noun. Pigmentation is a trait of some bodily structure; it doesn’t occur free-floating from nowhere.
Pigmentation results from pigments, which are chemicals that are produced by cells, and of course cells are indeed components of bodily structures.
[/pedantry]
Janine/Bride O’Shrek: men always lie about the size of their chef’s knives. MAJeff: I guess I’ll have dinner alone, again, tonight.
The actual Night of the Long Knives should serve to remind everyone that fascists eventually get rid of those who they they use and then later find inconvenient. One of the these days the evangelico-fascist-fundies will turn on their Catholic and Jewish camp followers.
MAJeff: I guess I’ll have dinner alone, again, tonight.
I just had leftover Thai food–but the chef’s knife has been getting a work out. I made and canned tomato-fennel soup today (got 8 jars), and split-pea yesterday (10 jars). I was going to do more tomorrow, but I ran out of jars.
I actually went to Sizzler–I was invited by a female friend, so I did not choose the place. Your fare sounds much better. Split pea is one of my favorites. If I’m ever on the east coast I’ll have to stop by.
“As Mary-Jane West-Eberhard explains, bodies change first, followed up (perhaps) by changes in genes.”… is this a quote mine? i’ll try to find her book in our library and have a read.
It’s about developmental plasticity, I’m pretty sure she does not ascribe it to the will power of the organism, like our friend the troll :)
Just had a PgDn scroll through post #222.
I know who it is.
Mel Gibson.
Drunk again.
In character from ‘Conspiracy Theory’.
LOL–Yeah, I was going to try to patiently explain the concept of melanophores to him. But then I saw how much time others had spent trying to do so, and what a waste of their time he made it, so I decided not to bother.
No, I would disagree on both counts–“pigmentation” is a noun; “pigmented” is the corresponding adjective. But more fundamentally, an anatomical structure is not determined by the part of speech we use to refer to it. Pigmentation can be, but is not always, an anatomical structure, independent of whether we reify it in language.
It can be a static trait in some cases (like graying hair); in other cases, it can be an anatomical structure itself, which undergoes dynamic transformation. Some animals, like cephalopods, can even control the change as a conscious response; we lost that along the way.
The chromatophores–cells containing pigment–that fish and other animals possess can be observed to grow and shrink under the microscope as a result of applying neurotransmitters or hormones–epinephrine, for example. So a lot of “large” (relatively) points of black (or whatever color) can suddenly become “small” points of black, and the fish or octopus will change from colored to pale. It’s very much like a pointillist effect, except that it’s so fine-grained that we can’t see the dots.
So it’s a question of resolution or granularity–if we routinely saw the pigment cells at the microscopic level get bigger or smaller, we’d recognize those bigger or smaller sizes of the melanophores as changes in an anatomical structure.
And chemicals are, of course, structures, so I specified “anatomical structure” to clarify that, above.
Well… I think what I was driving at was that pigment was a trait of skin: despite the fact that hair isn’t skin itself, it’s generated by cells in the skin, deriving its pigment from those cells. Chromatophores are part of cephalopod skin. And of course, skin is indeed an anatomical structure.
Although now that I wrote that, I just remembered cephalopod ink: the whole point is that it is in fact free-floating pigment. Oh, well. Although cephalopod ink is also generated by an anatomical structure.
Gawd help me…. I actually ATTEMPTED TO READ that freaking book someone posted above….. it literally gave me a headache, and when I was sure it must be done I just scrolled down and it seemed to never end…..
To counteract the stupidifying effects of that, I will state that the greatest scientific revelation of my life was that birds evolved from dinosaurs and are in fact living maniraptors. Think about it, I’ll always be that dinosaur loving kid, wishing to see a real live dinosaur, and while it’s no consolation to know I’ll still never meet T. Rex or Triceratops, it’s still nice to know some dinosaurs survived the K/T event, infact the coolest kind (no one can deny that maniraptors are kickass)
Sorry, forgot to mention, YES I know that was completely random and off topic, but I had to share my genuine scientific (if amateurish) fascination in order to cleanse my mind of the results of my attempt to read that stupid retarded novel of a post