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Sep 16 2013

Like cattle

Christopher Jackson of Chandler, Arizona needs to be put away for a long, long time. He has some peculiar notions about how to interact with women.

The woman told police the two of them went to a baseball game together, and after the game, Jackson wanted to go dancing. The woman told Jackson she was too tired to do that. He "offered her a pill to energize her," according to court documents.

Not feeling energized after taking the pill, Jackson gave her two more. The woman passed out shortly after taking the other two pills, according to court documents.

She woke up in Jackson’s bed in severe pain, and discovered that Jackson had branded her. She said she saw Jackson with the branding equipment and butane torch, according to the documents.

The woman told police that Jackson "bragged" to her that he’d done that to other girlfriends in the past and explained to her that he wanted to do the same thing to her because "her vagina was his," court documents state.

How can a human being in 21st century America reach middle age while holding these indescribably vile attitudes? And he claims to have done this multiple times?

105 comments

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  1. 1
    Lars

    Paraphilia gone horribly wrong? As a sadist/dominant I have to say fuck that shit. Lock him up and throw away the key. I don’t want my sexuality to be associated with that kind of behavior (even though I’m obviously guilty of making the same connection in my own mind).

  2. 2
    Holms

    If it wasn’t already obvious that the man regarded her as a mere sex object, bear in mind that the branding was on her vagina. No doubt the twitterverse will duly applaud him as an ‘alpha’, brace yourselves for some awful apologetics.

  3. 3
    Walton

    That is indescribably awful.

  4. 4
    NightShadeQueen, resident nutcase

    Don’t read the comments, they’re horrible.

    [I scrolled past one "buyer's remorse" and a fuckton of prison-rape jokes, some of which that were directed at various female inmates]

  5. 5
    chigau (違う)

    vagina?

  6. 6
    NightShadeQueen, resident nutcase

    I’m going to assume they actually meant vulva, since I’m not quite sure how one would brand a vagina.

  7. 7
    Todd Tolhurst

    “Vile attitudes”? That’s not a vile attitude PZ, that’s mental illness.

  8. 8
    ekwhite

    Holy Crap. Even knowing what kind of crazies they have in Phoenix, this is shocking.

  9. 9
    Inaji

    Well, people will rush to judgement and blame the victim, after all, she took the first pill, amirite? Ugh.

  10. 10
    Inaji

    Monitor Note

    Tod Tolhurst @ 7, do not even start with the mental illness business. People are quite capable of holding vile attitudes and committing vile acts without a whisper of mental illness. This is not only derailing from the subject at hand, your comment is full of splash damage towards all those people who do deal with mental illness. Do not do this again, and don’t argue the merits of your thoughtless comment in this thread. If you cannot control an impulse to argue this, take it to Thunderdome.

    To All: take note. No assumptions of mental illness. Thank you.

  11. 11
    MarkM1427

    It’s a shame he isn’t eligible for the death penalty. He damn well deserves it.

  12. 12
    Inaji

    Monitor Note

    MarkM1427:

    It’s a shame he isn’t eligible for the death penalty. He damn well deserves it.

    This is not a helpful comment in any way. There will be no derails about capital punishment, either. If you are unable to control yourself on this issue, take it to Thunderdome.

    To All: this thread is not the appropriate place to discuss capital punishment. Take any and all such discussion to Thunderdome. Thank you.

  13. 13
    birgerjohansson

    Caine, OK, how about “attitudes so vile you might suspect some serious cerebral wiring problems”?
    Technically, a psychopath is not sick but there is probably something off in the frontal lobe where empathy is located. I am sure this Jackson fellow is perfectly capable of functioning in society in a “sane” way, Dexter-like. He is not compelled to be an asshole, he merely enjoys it.

  14. 14
    birgerjohansson

    Addendum; Withouth people like Jackson, where would we recruit waterboarding interrogators? (sarcasm)

  15. 15
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Don’t underestimate memeopathy.

  16. 16
    Todd Tolhurst

    Caine, Fleur du mal @ 10, Right. Got it. The attitude did it. Thank you for correcting me.

  17. 17
    NightShadeQueen, resident nutcase

    birgerjohansson

    Please, don’t.

    There’s enough stigma against personality disorders already. Here’s a link.

    I’m willing to chat in the Thunderdome; can we keep this out of this thread?

  18. 18
    Inaji

    birger:

    Caine, OK, how about “attitudes so vile you might suspect some serious cerebral wiring problems”?

    How about “No fucking assumptions about the mental status or sexual orientation of the person in question”? Is that clear enough? Because I don’t want people derailing into another stupid, ignorant discussion of various forms of kink, either.

  19. 19
    birgerjohansson

    OK. Roger that.

  20. 20
    Inaji

    Tod Tolhurst @ 16, thank you! I appreciate that so much.

  21. 21
    birgerjohansson

    Is there any additional information from the police? If he is dumb enough to brag about it he is making it really easy for the police, especially if people recognise him from photos.

  22. 22
    Doug Hudson

    Also, suggesting that this douchebag must be mentally ill plays down the horrific influence of the patriarchy on society.

    His attitude toward women is far too common to be viewed as an aberration. Society teaches men that women are objects to be owned. He was just a little more blatant about it than is typical (in the United States).

  23. 23
    Inaji

    Doug:

    His attitude toward women is far too common to be viewed as an aberration. Society teaches men that women are objects to be owned. He was just a little more blatant about it than is typical (in the United States).

    That’s the truth. I’d say this is more of a case of someone having a serious conviction of those all too common beliefs.

  24. 24
    birgerjohansson

    “His attitude toward women is far too common to be viewed as an aberration.”

    I might picture outlaw bikers doing all sorts of things, but if Jackson was a “mainstream” kind of person I hope people like him are usually picked up by the authorities at an early stage.

  25. 25
    Seven of Mine, formerly piegasm

    @24 birgerjohansson

    Stop trying to other this guy. Doing vile things doesn’t entail being mentally ill, psychopathic, or in any way noticeably non-conforming. Fucking stop this shit.

  26. 26
    Doug Hudson

    birgerjohansson @24,

    Perhaps you should peruse the many misogyny threads here on Pharyngula? Or read the news?

    Jackson’s beliefs are extremely mainstream. The only difference is that he physically, rather than mentally, branded his victim.

    You probably don’t realize this, but by dismissing Jackson you are dismissing the suffering of the (estimated) 1 in 4 women who have been raped by a man who thought he owned women.

  27. 27
    birgerjohansson

    Caine, I realise I am priviliged to live in Scandinavia. The local assholes know they have to behave. Same thing with racists.

  28. 28
    Inaji

    Birger:

    I might picture outlaw bikers doing all sorts of things, but if Jackson was a “mainstream” kind of person I hope people like him are usually picked up by the authorities at an early stage.

    This is where your ignorance is coming into play. You are depending on stereotypes, and that is not a good filter for any type of thinking. You often read the stuff written by MRAs, PUAs and other assorted douchecakes. This kind of thinking is common, and you shouldn’t be surprised by people holding toxic sexist ideas.

    I realize you may be having a hard time wrapping your head around his actions, however, you keep trying to find a way to other this person. That’s not helpful, in any way.

  29. 29
    birgerjohansson

    OK, I realise I lack background knowledge of the subject

  30. 30
    Chengis Khan, The Cryofly

    Owner of the vaginas must also own the cell in a medieval prison.

  31. 31
    Inaji

    Birger:

    Caine, I realise I am priviliged to live in Scandinavia. The local assholes know they have to behave. Same thing with racists.

    It must be very nice to live in place with zero overt sexism. That said, stop in your efforts to other this person. If you wish to persist in this, take it to Thunderdome. Thanks.

  32. 32
    The Mellow Monkey

    birgerjohansson @24

    I might picture outlaw bikers doing all sorts of things, but if Jackson was a “mainstream” kind of person I hope people like him are usually picked up by the authorities at an early stage.

    Rapists, murderers, torturers, abusers, etc. can come from all walks of life. As horrifying as this story is, it’s in no way indicative of the perpetrator’s place in society. Sean Connery went on record with Barbara Walters explaining the proper way to beat a woman when she won’t let an argument go; he is not an outlaw biker. These are ordinary, common attitudes. It’s simply been taken to the logical extreme in this case.

  33. 33
    Inaji

    Monitor Note:

    Avoid assumptions or speculation on mental illness.

    Avoid assumptions or speculation on sexual orientation or kink.

    Avoid talk about capital punishment.

    Avoid othering.

  34. 34
    Thomathy, Such A 'Mo

    Ugh. What an awful person.

    I doubt very much if there is any appropriate justice short of life imprisonment. If only rehabilitation were a serious possibility. I really can’t imagine how he came to be the person he is and I’m not sure I want to.

  35. 35
    LykeX

    I think this really illustrates that when we say that some people think of women as property, it’s not hyperbole. It’s not an exaggeration to get the point across. These assholes actually think of women as property.

    It’s hard to quite understand that attitude, but with cases like this you have to admit that’s what’s going on.

  36. 36
    Thomathy, Such A 'Mo

    It’s hard to quite understand that attitude, but with cases like this you have to admit that’s what’s going on.

    There’s probably much more than that going on.

  37. 37
    Inaji

    LykeX:

    I think this really illustrates that when we say that some people think of women as property, it’s not hyperbole. It’s not an exaggeration to get the point across. These assholes actually think of women as property.

    Yes, they do. This behaviour, while shocking to people, isn’t any different from those people who beat their partner, nor is it different to those who think of rape as gaming. In all of it, the thread of objectification runs strong. Things, not people. It’s bad thinking which allows for bad acts.

  38. 38
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    birgerjohansson, before you say anything like this again;

    Caine, I realise I am priviliged to live in Scandinavia. The local assholes know they have to behave. Same thing with racists.

    I will say the name of one person that shows what a silly attitude you are displaying here.

    Anders Behring Breivik

  39. 39
    kevinalexander

    Caine, thank you. You said it better than I could.
    You could also point out that making assumptions or speculations that you have no way of testing is just bad science.
    Also, playing the mental illness angle gives an out that this a**hole doesn’t deserve.

  40. 40
    Thomathy, Such A 'Mo

    Also, playing the mental illness angle gives an out that this a**hole doesn’t deserve.

    Well, that’s not true. It’s just something that we don’t know about. He may well have some particular problem. Many people do. A mental illness would no more ‘give him an out’ than any other medical problem and there’s no reason to think that any particular mental illness is necessary or sufficient for him to commit the acts that he has (although there are mental illnesses that certainly could be correlated to such behaviour).

    It is not worth speculating about.

  41. 41
    Inaji

    Kevinalexander @ 39, well, assumptions fueled by a lack of knowledge aren’t helpful. Other assumptions are fairly safe, such as swimming in a pool of toxic sexism, as we all do, strongly enables poisonous attitudes and actions.

    I think that attempts to declare this person mentally ill are simply an automatic act of othering, it’s an attempt to remove this person from the sphere of human. That’s not only demeaning to people who do have a mental illness, it’s denying that human beings are perfectly capable of committing bad (monstrous, even) acts.

  42. 42
    Daz: Experiencing A Slight Gravitas Shortfall

    I might picture outlaw bikers doing all sorts of things, but if Jackson was a “mainstream” kind of person I hope people like him are usually picked up by the authorities at an early stage.

    My bike. Would you like to reconsider the above unfounded speculation?

    More seriously, there is neither need nor point in trying to pass this guy off as a member of some group which you feel it’s okay to slander with generalisations. He did what he did. He didn’t do it because he was a member of this group or that group, he did it because he’s an amoral bastard. And contrary to popular opinion, amoral bastards tend to be the nice guy next door who “wouldn’t hurt a fly.”

  43. 43
    ekwhite

    Birger Johansson et al:

    Having lived in Phoenix for 3 years in the late ’90s, I can attest that attitudes like his are *not* uncommon. I worked with a man who killed the neighbor’s dog because it’s barking annoyed him. He claimed it was an accident, but after that, if someone annoyed him, he would just say “keep barking.”

    I also worked with various racists, gun nuts, and misogynists. Phoenix has some seriously screwed up people, even for the US.

  44. 44
    birgerjohansson

    Given that draconic punishments are not effective deterrents, how can one *effectively* reach out to the million-plus potential Jacksons out there and change their values? Especially if they are surrounded by peers with similar attitudes?
    And this is connected to people’s atitudes to violence, too.
    Eventually the old generation will take their attitudes with them into the grave but that is too slow.

  45. 45
    Daz: Experiencing A Slight Gravitas Shortfall

    Given that draconic punishments are not effective deterrents, how can one *effectively* reach out to the million-plus potential Jacksons out there and change their values?

    Education. Not just the mechanics and biology of sex, but relationships, human rights regarding bodily autonomy, and so on. And to stop giving the impression to children, spoken or unspoken, that women are “lesser.”

  46. 46
    Lynna, OM

    There is surprisingly little background on Jackson in the news reports. Someone needs to do some digging.

  47. 47
    Thomathy, Such A 'Mo

    birgerjohansson, rehabilitation is not a focus of most penal systems. It isn’t even the overreaching focus or goal of penal systems that do do some rehabilitation, even with success.

    There is a systemic problem that includes a lack of public understanding about the merits and purpose of punitive punishment, about the effectiveness of rehabilitation and about the meaning and purpose of justice. There is a quite human, if not enlightened, idea of justice that is decidedly divorced from even the possibility of rehabilitation. There really isn’t an easy way to change any of this and no concerted and successful attempt at pushing for rehabilitation has been made anywhere (though there are some model systems, even if small and limited). Justice, globally, is about punishment, usually punitive, and justice is about assigning blame.

    It’s a broken system. The most we can hope for at present for someone like Christopher Jackson is that he gets taken out of society such that he doesn’t pose a further threat. And that’s not even for his remaining years. Justice, currently, is very bad at figuring out likelihood of recidivism. Probably as a product of having little interest in rehabilitation.

  48. 48
    dianne

    How can a human being in 21st century America reach middle age while holding these indescribably vile attitudes?

    How can they not? Men are immersed in a culture that rewards them for doing vile things to women. It’s not particularly surprising that some go over the top.

  49. 49
    mouthyb, Vagina McTits

    *ACK* What a colossal asshole!

  50. 50
    chigau (違う)

    birgerjohansson
    How old is Anders Behring Breivik?

  51. 51
    Thomathy, Such A 'Mo

    Oh, I’ve assumed that the other Jacksons out there aren’t going to be able to be stopped before they do something horrible. I suppose it’s possible to educate the ‘potential’ Jackson’s before they do something horrible, too. Certainly we would get them all. There’s another systemic problem with their attitudes in the first place. The whole problem is a hydra.

  52. 52
    Thomathy, Such A 'Mo

    *wouldn’t*

  53. 53
    Doug Hudson

    What Daz @45 said.

    Where I live (NC, USA), I’ve seen some efforts in that direction–ad campaigns focused on educating men on what rape is, for example. (One might think that would be obvious, but one would be wrong). Also, ads encouraging people to speak out about misogyny and rape apology.

    It isn’t easy to make such a massive change to a culture, but evidence suggests it can be done.

  54. 54
    Inaji

    Daz:

    My bike.

    Heh, we have four motorcycles. This is just one reason why I don’t care for allowing stereotypes to replace actual thinking.

  55. 55
    Inaji

    When it comes to shifting sexist attitudes, in particular those dealing with rape or other sexual assault, targeting potential rapists is what works: The Don’t Be That Guy Campaign is brilliant, and it works, very well.

    Also, as Daz pointed out, continual education is key. Continual challenging of attitudes is key. Speaking up when one of the guys makes a stupid, sexist comment or joke, that is key. Refusing to let such attitudes slide, that is key.

  56. 56
    Thomathy, Such A 'Mo

    The Don’t Be That Guy Campaign is brilliant, and it works, very well.

    I love this campaign. I also love how it has been targeted toward gays too.

  57. 57
    Olav

    Birgerjohansson #44:

    Given that draconic punishments are not effective deterrents, how can one *effectively* reach out to the million-plus potential Jacksons out there and change their values?

    You can not, I believe. Not too dampen your idealism but there is no fix for such people. Perhaps some of them are still capable of having a change of heart. That would require some sort of personal experience though which they come to realise how wrong and hateful they have been. A very unlikely condition to fulfill.

    And if they already descended to the level displayed by this guy in Phoenix, having acted on their deranged fantasies, it is likely impossible.

    Regarding draconian punishments as deterrent to such hateful crimes, indeed they do not work. But a good (=near certain) chance of getting caught might. Unless the perpetrator is also arrogantly stupid, thinking he is too clever to be caught. And of course this is the case for most of them. They are bloody geniuses – in their own minds.

    What people need to do is to change the environment that produces such personalities. It will take more than a few generations in some places in the world.

  58. 58
    jnorris

    Avoided Commenting.

  59. 59
    Inaji

    Olav:

    You can not, I believe. Not too dampen your idealism but there is no fix for such people. Perhaps some of them are still capable of having a change of heart. That would require some sort of personal experience though which they come to realise how wrong and hateful they have been. A very unlikely condition to fulfill.

    This is a load of premium bullshit. Of course there can be societal change. There’s been quite a bit of it already, in case it escaped your notice. Yes, there’s a fucktonne to be done, however, shrugging and giving up aren’t the ways to effect change. Speaking up, speaking out, and education. That’s how you reach people, and yes, it can be done one person at a time. It’s not a waste of time to enlighten one of the guys as to why a rape joke is not funny, frinst., nor is it a waste of time to respond to say, objectification of women, with a “not cool, women are human beings” or somesuch. Change will never happen if people simply assume it’s too big of a job.

  60. 60
    Inaji

    Thomathy:

    I love this campaign. I also love how it has been targeted toward gays too.

    There’s a lot to love about that campaign. It needs to be everywhere.

  61. 61
    Seven of Mine, formerly piegasm

    Change will never happen if people simply assume it’s too big of a job.

    I hate that attitude with the fire of a thousand suns. If all the people constantly wondering what one person can do would STFU and do something, shit would fucking get done. It’s not rocket surgery.

  62. 62
    Howard Bannister

    birgerjahnsson @ 27

    Caine, I realise I am priviliged to live in Scandinavia. The local assholes know they have to behave. Same thing with racists.

    Seriously?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#Sweden

    Sweden has the highest incidence of reported rapes in Europe and one of the highest in the world.

    Many of the Scandinavian countries have excellent and wonderful political climates, and seem to be far ahead of the curve. But do not pretend for a second that sexism is a solved problem there.

    (note that “comparisons based on victim surveys place Sweden at an average level among European nations”–i.e., the really high incidence of reported rapes in Sweden is probably because the Swedish police take those reports seriously, which is actually a very good thing–but that still means that rape is just as common there as elsewhere)

  63. 63
    microraptor

    My question is this: if the guy bragged that he’d done this to other girlfriends in the past, just how did he manage to not be caught before this incident?

  64. 64
    Inaji

    Seven of Mine:

    If all the people constantly wondering what one person can do would STFU and do something, shit would fucking get done.

    Too true. It’s especially difficult to get men to speak up, given the homosocial pressures they are brought up with and deal with, however, it’s not impossible to find one other guy in your group who feels the same, and then you can bring things up and effect change. It’s absolutely vital that men speak up, because a majority of men measure their worth by what other men think of them. Reading Guyland by Michael Kimmel was illuminating in this regard.

  65. 65
    Seven of Mine, formerly piegasm

    @63 microraptor

    Because reporting rape and sexual assault and the ensuing torment of dealing with the legal system is often as traumatic, if not moreso, than the rape/assault itself and lots of victims opt to just get on with their lives as best they can rather than pursue it.

  66. 66
    Inaji

    microraptor:

    My question is this: if the guy bragged that he’d done this to other girlfriends in the past, just how did he manage to not be caught before this incident?

    In the same way a lot of people get away with violent assaults? It wasn’t reported. The police didn’t take it seriously. Perhaps a former girlfriend was okay with it (some people do get into branding). There may have been threats involved.

    Someone who has no compunction about drugging and branding you may well engender a serious level of fear, one in which getting the fuck away was prioritized.

  67. 67
    chigau (違う)

    microraptor #63
    and Probably because his previous victims were embarrassed at being victims and believed it was their fault.

  68. 68
    Seven of Mine, formerly piegasm

    @64 Caine

    It’s especially difficult to get men to speak up, given the homosocial pressures they are brought up with and deal with, however, it’s not impossible to find one other guy in your group who feels the same, and then you can bring things up and effect change.

    Yeah, I didn’t mean to imply that “doing something” is necessarily easy especially, as you say, when there’s a lot of social pressure not to rock the boat. And that’s fine; sometimes you weigh the cost vs. the benefit and it’s just not a price you can pay for whatever reason in your circumstance. But for the love of all that is fuck, at the very least don’t try to argue other people out of stepping up.

  69. 69
    Inaji

    There’s also the possibility that Jackson was lying when he said he branded other women. This may have been a longstanding fantasy that he finally worked himself up to doing. Unless other women come forward, it’s doubtful we’ll ever know.

  70. 70
    Endorkened

    What Lars said. But better.

  71. 71
    ryancunningham

    This is deeply disturbing. He purchased the pills and carried them around with him. At his home, he had the branding equipment prepared and ready. Premeditated is an understatement. I haven’t been this chilled by a news story since Ariel Castro.

  72. 72
    Olav

    Caine #59:

    This is a load of premium bullshit. Of course there can be societal change.

    I am not at all saying there can not be societal change. I was responding to Birger’s question in #44 about how “potential Jacksons” can be reached to change their minds. Potential Jacksons being, I presume, people who would also dream of doing things to another person like the guy in the article did. I am not at all convinced that you can really reach them. To me, they seem damaged.

    Societal change is indeed what we need and what I was alluding to when I said “What people need to do is to change the environment that produces such personalities.” The methods that you mentioned (speaking out, etc.) are all good ones.

    Paradoxically, I believe that it is easier to change an entire society’s values than it is to change individual minds. I haven’t the time to expand on that, but perhaps you understand anyway.

  73. 73
    Inaji

    Olav:

    Paradoxically, I believe that it is easier to change an entire society’s values than it is to change individual minds. I haven’t the time to expand on that, but perhaps you understand anyway.

    Yes, I understand.

  74. 74
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Society teaches men that women are objects to be owned.

    And it teaches men and women that cows are objects to be owned. The connection between these systems of oppression-exploitation needs to be recognized.

  75. 75
    Doug Hudson

    SC @74, say what? Are you trolling? Or have you joined PETA? Comparing women to cows is the sort of thing they love to do.

    Either way, not cool.

  76. 76
    Inaji

    Doug @ 75, no, SC is not trolling, this is a subject dear to her, and one she is passionate about. That said, please take any subsequent discussion of this type to Thunderdome. Thank you.

  77. 77
    Doug Hudson

    Caine @76, I hear and obey! Thanks. : P

  78. 78
    vaiyt

    Potential Jacksons being, I presume, people who would also dream of doing things to another person like the guy in the article did. I am not at all convinced that you can really reach them. To me, they seem damaged.

    The mindset is everywhere. Just because Jackson expressed it in a more extreme way, does not mean he is anything exceptional.

  79. 79
    Krasnaya Koshka

    1. Shocking to me because this is exactly where my mom lives. (I want my mom to be safe–this is an irrational fear, I realize.)

    2. Not so shocking because this could be anytown, anycountry. (I’ve been peed on by guys so that they “own” me. Is this the next natural step?) :::shudder::::

    3. One of the countries in which I was peed on was Norway so Scandinavia is not so “hip”. Actually, in Sweden my gf and I were not allowed to check into a bed and breakfast until a man came in with us. True story. I was furious. He had to pretend he was my husband. He was lovely and apologized profusely (for his countrymen/women) but to pretend Scandinavia is above sexism is laughable.

  80. 80
    Travis

    Branding, wow, I am sort of surprised that he had the gall to do this, something that was so obvious, that left such a mark, but at the same time I am not at all surprised and realize getting away with these things is the norm.

    Sigh, I wonder if there are any Scandinavians that are as tired of their compatriots constantly pretending they are ever so much better than the US on these issues as I am with other Canadians that constantly feel the need to say that Canada does not have these kinds of problems. I get really, really tired of friends having such a hyperinflated sense of how much better we are in all areas. It gets in the way of changing things here.

  81. 81
    Howard Bannister

    Travis @ 80

    And in the the northern US we say, ‘oh, no, we don’t have any racism problems, it’s all down south, they’re terrible racists.’ And continue patterns of systemic inequality that ensure white men have all the money.

    Being able to point and say ‘we’re so much better than you’ takes the onus of change off ourselves. No, THAT’S sexism/racism/xenophobia, not US. We’re better!

    Beware any bias that takes yourself off the hook; they’re seductive.

  82. 82
    BeyondUnderstanding

    @Caine (#55)

    The Don’t Be That Guy Campaign is brilliant, and it works, very well.

    While a great campaign, no doubt, are there any statistics showing it to be successful?

  83. 83
    Inaji

    BeyondUnderstanding:

    While a great campaign, no doubt, are there any statistics showing it to be successful?

    Yes. I suggest you click the link I provided. You can also read these: http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2013/01/08/rape-prevention-aimed-at-rapists-does-work/ and http://www.theunexpectedtnt.com/2012/01/partial-success-dont-be-that-guy.html

  84. 84
    Inaji

    Krasnaya Koshka:

    I’ve been peed on by guys so that they “own” me.

    ! Aaargheeeuuw, that’s awful. Seriously awful.

  85. 85
    Inaji

    Travis:

    I get really, really tired of friends having such a hyperinflated sense of how much better we are in all areas. It gets in the way of changing things here.

    Oh, this happens all over. No one wants to think they have ___________ problem[s]. Denial, it’s a major human condition.

  86. 86
    Krasnaya Koshka

    Caine @ 85 — Yes, and yes, and yes. I hear that all the time. That wouldn’t happen HERE! But it happens everywhere.

    Travis @ 80 — Your comment was spot on.

    And, yes. I’ve been peed on in Phoenix, San Francisco, New York, Norway, Jamaica, Italy and Spain. I must put off some sort of territorial pheromone. I have no idea. Come to think of it, usually after I say I’m a lesbian.

  87. 87
    BeyondUnderstanding

    @Caine (#83)

    Yes. I suggest you click the link I provided.

    I did! Unfortunately, I couldn’t find anything there relevant to its success.

    The additional links provided mention that “reported sexual assaults in Vancouver fell by 10%”. Is that the only positive statistic that have been released on this campaign so far? Can’t seem to find anything else.

    It seems like this campaign is bandied about as the go-to example of how targeting potential rapists works, yet no one provides much solid evidence on its success.

  88. 88
    Daz: Experiencing A Slight Gravitas Shortfall

    Krasnaya Koshka

    And, yes. I’ve been peed on in Phoenix, San Francisco, New York, Norway, Jamaica, Italy and Spain. I must put off some sort of territorial pheromone. I have no idea. Come to think of it, usually after I say I’m a lesbian.

    I have no idea why this shocks me more than the OP did.

  89. 89
    Doug Hudson

    BeyondUnderstanding @ 87, your expectations seem a little high. This is an ad campaign about changing societal perceptions. There might not be ANY quantifiable changes that can be linked to this campaign, especially since rape is already significantly under-reported.

    But just because quantifiable measurement isn’t likely doesn’t mean it’s not a good campaign. It’s a “hearts and minds” sort of thing.

  90. 90
    Inaji

    Krasnaya Koshka:

    Come to think of it, usually after I say I’m a lesbian.

    I…I just can’t parse this. I’d be shocked out of my shoes if someone peed on me.

  91. 91
    Howard Bannister

    The additional links provided mention that “reported sexual assaults in Vancouver fell by 10%”. Is that the only positive statistic that have been released on this campaign so far? Can’t seem to find anything else.

    The thing is, and follow me closely here, the expected results of a good educational campaign are for reports of sexual assault to go UP.

    Because as you give women the tools to call something that happened to them in a so-called “grey area” rape or assault, they’ll do so.

    Have you read Meet the Predators?

  92. 92
    BeyondUnderstanding

    @Howard Bannister (#91)

    the expected results of a good educational campaign are for reports of sexual assault to go UP.

    That’s a neat thought, didn’t think of that.

    @Doug Hudson (#89)
    Oh, I definitely think it’s a great campaign. I just keep hearing how it works, which would imply some measurement.

  93. 93
    microraptor

    Because reporting rape and sexual assault and the ensuing torment of dealing with the legal system is often as traumatic, if not moreso, than the rape/assault itself and lots of victims opt to just get on with their lives as best they can rather than pursue it.

    I know, I know. The question was mostly a rhetorical expression of disbelief over the extremity of the crime.

  94. 94
    PatrickG

    @ Travis, #80:

    Sigh, I wonder if there are any Scandinavians that are as tired of their compatriots constantly pretending they are ever so much better than the US on these issues as I am with other Canadians that constantly feel the need to say that Canada does not have these kinds of problems.

    Hey, American exceptionalism works both ways!

    ¬ – U – S – A! (You can pronounce the ¬ as you wish.)

    More seriously, what Caine said at #85. Now that I’ve moved from the South(-ish) back to the West Coast, I’m rather more attuned to people claiming geographical moral superiority. “Um, we have racism here too, you know” is becoming almost a verbal tic.

    On topic, @ Caine, #9: you don’t have to go very far into the comments on that article for victim-blaming:

    so it supposedly happens six months ago and she is just now getting mad about it? yeah, right. this is BS. she totally consented to this and got buyer’s remorse when he left her for someone new.

    I wish I had words.

  95. 95
    Julien Rousseau

    Daz:

    I have no idea why this shocks me more than the OP did.

    Possibly because while the OP is about a worse violation of a person’s body it was perpetrated (as far as we know) by one person and so can be rationalised as an aberration (even if the underlying objectification is not an aberration its manifestation is) whereas Krasnaya’s experiences happened from many different people (It seems safe to assume that these were different people) in geographically diverse places and thus betray a much more widespread attitude that, while less extreme, is nonetheless quite disturbing.

    Krasnaya Koshka:

    Come to think of it, usually after I say I’m a lesbian.

    So after learning that they cannot have you with their penis sexually they declare that they “own” you by using another biological function of their penis? I would be very surprised if it was coincidental (especially given the number of times it’s happened to you).

  96. 96
    Markita Lynda—threadrupt

    BeyondUnderstanding @82, the campaign was first run in Edmonton, but men’s rights activists there said that it put an unjustified emphasis on men as rapists. Rape reports continued to climb and went up over 10% the next year.

    A similar campaign in Vancouver brought the number down 10%, which was accounted a success.

    So results have been mixed (Partial success).

  97. 97
    spamamander, internet amphibian

    @Lars

    So very much agreeing with you. Being the other side of the coin as a sub/masochist I even have to fight with myself, never mind people like these turning paraphilias into criminal behavior. I’m a sex-positive feminist; I have to reconcile my own fetishes with being outspoken against reprehensible non-consentual behaviors. I may desire dominance- but I do NOT think it is the “right, true” place of women. It is my own sexuality.

    On a softer note don’t get me started on the whole “50 shades” thing. Not only is it major non-consent and just wrong, she “cures” him in the end. All I could think of was “Why the hell would you ruin a perfectly good Dom and kill it for the rest of us?”

  98. 98
    ck

    I like those “Don’t be that guy” posters, but I do wish they’d add a couple with women as the perpetrators (a trans* one would be good, too). A woman raping another woman one would help make it clear that penis-in-vagina is not the only way that rape occurs. A woman raping a man one would damage the idea that men always want sex in all occasions (another aspect of rape culture) without actually saying it. Men raping women is obviously more common and should be the theme of most of the posters, but I can’t quite shake the feeling that a focus this narrow may erase some victims’ experiences by making them seem like “not-rape”.

  99. 99
    Holms

    @5, 6
    Well yes, the article uses ‘vagina’ where it should use the more anatomically accurate ‘vulva’ or perhaps even ‘mons pubis’, but that is how it is used in casual language.

  100. 100
    =8)-DX

    Oh laaawdy, shucks and somesuch: boys will be…

    Fuck. This is fucking disgusting.

  101. 101
    birgerjohansson

    Chigau,
    Breivik was born in February 1979
    — — — — — — — —
    Caine, I am sorry if I came across as insensitive.
    The idea of millions of Jacksons, an impulse away from doing this is not easy to digest.
    Krasnaya Koshka,
    Crap, I don’t know what to say.

  102. 102
    Fionnabhair

    Regarding the Don’t Be That Guy campaign: one measure of success, I think, is how attitudes towards the rape culture have shifted. In Edmonton, there was a MRA group who put up “Don’t be that girl” posters, with common rape culture tropes like buyer’s remorse and such. I read about it in news articles by Global (two articles, one reporting on the posters, another after a group claimed responsibility for them), and there was zero effort made at any sort of balance. The guy leading the MRAs who put up the posters got a quote. There was an image of their posters, and I believe the text on one of them was also quoted. The rest of the article consisted of quotes on why the MRA’s posters were wrong. They spoke to local police, local politicians, a Woman’s Studies professor, and all were upset about the MRA’s posters, explained why they were wrong, expressed outrage, you get the idea.

    It would have been easy to get a few quotes from people who thought the MRA’s posters were a good idea. Global did not include any such quotes in their articles. I think it says a lot when a mainstream network like Global is so unwaveringly in support of the Don’t Be That Guy campaign.

  103. 103
    birgerjohansson

    Travis,
    The problem with “stealth” assholery is that when you look at the surface , everything seems fine. You notice some asshole has spray-painted racist slogans but think it is just kids.
    It is more obvious on the internet, where they manifest with abuse, and even more obvious for politicians who get tons of anonymous hate mail and threats.
    In a way it is still progress; the understanding that their beliefs would be anathema in the public is forcing *most* of racists/misogynists to conform when in public. When attacking immigrants, they run away in a hurry to avoid getting caught so they know damned well the law is against them.

    Breivik knew he was going to prison for life when he was planning his acts but 99% of his brethren are fortunately not willing to become martys for assholery. What they do anonymously is quite another matter. I do not like the surveillance state but hate groups may actually require draconic measures -like closed-circuit TV all over- to stay away. ( Yes, I know this is no solution to what happens in private settings)

    I was unable to sleep most of this night thinking about actual fixes but they all seem too long-term.

  104. 104
    Daz: Experiencing A Slight Gravitas Shortfall

    birgerjohansson

    I was unable to sleep most of this night thinking about actual fixes but they all seem too long-term.

    To be honest, I’d be very suspicious of any solution which was claimed to be short-term. Not that I’d reject it out of hand, but societal attitudes tend, as far as I can see, to change over generations. You seem to get a “win,” so to speak, when the next generation absorbs, as a matter of course, the attitude that the previous one had to deliberately educate themselves into.

  105. 105
    campbellmcaulay

    “This behaviour, while shocking to people, isn’t any different from those people who beat their partner, nor is it different to those who think of rape as gaming.”

    My first reaction was also that the guy must be sick in the head. But Caine’s response, when you get right down to it, says it all. I’m slightly better educated now than when I read the OP. Thanks

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