A little blogging exercise for my students »« Around FtB

Hey, Glasgow…you can do better than this

It’s shocking but unsurprising that this sort of thing still happens, but women debaters at the Glasgow Union were openly booed — not for doing a bad job, but for their sex. Rebecca Meredith’s facebook page has the story, reproduced here because I know some of you are members of the Facebook Resistance.

Last night the amazing Marlena Valles and I were openly booed by a small number of misogynistic male Glasgow Union debaters and members during the final of the Glasgow Ancients competition for our presence as female speakers. Sexist comments were made about our appearance, and we were told to "get that woman out my my union" by a male member. Our speeches were interrupted by cries of "shame woman" and boos at mention of female equality within the context of the final. Sexism is not just something we talk about – it is something real people experience everyday. After complaining, we were told by several GUU debaters that it was "par for the course" and "to be expected" that female speakers in the Glasgow debating chamber would be booed (though several members including the wonderful John McKee supported us admirably). I have been told as a female debater that I should be careful not to sound "hysterical" as a female speaker, I have been told to defer to my male partner on analysis and economics because male debaters are "more convincing", but never have I been openly disparaged in a final merely for being a woman. I was increadibly proud to be in the final of the LSE Open with the wonderful Freddy Powell, epecially against the likes of Sam Block and Fred Cowell, but was deeply saddened to be informed by several other debaters (well meaningly) that I should be proud to be only the 4th woman to ever get there in the past 5 years. I am not proud, I am sad. Debaters should probably realise that while we all say we care about sexism, incidents like those of last night, the lack of proportionate numbers of females in competitive finals, and (most worryingly) the number of female freshers who report they have abandoned debating due to sexist behaviour or intimidation are not acceptable, and we should probably start doing things to change them.

Marlene Valles also has an account.

This weekend was Glasgow University Union’s annual Ancients competition. For those who don’t know what happened, during mine and my partner’s speeches, in opening government, we were “shame”-d and booed by members of the audience whenever we spoke about how the motion ‘This House Regrets the Centralization of Religion’ affected women (My partner spoke about Leila Ahmed and female clergy and I spoke about dogmatic opposition to contraception and Catholics who identified as pro-choice). We both realised why we were being booed: it was because we were advocating for women’s rights, speaking in the GUU. It was only when one of the men making the misogynistic comments and interruptions had the nerve to stand up in the floor debate and very sarcastically say, “The GUU has been proudly admitting women for thirty three years and we are committed to equality” when a member of the audience bravely stood up and responded in a rousing five-minute floor speech telling the entire chamber that the men who were booing us were whispering *women* after shouting “shame” at all of our points and making patronizing comments about our dresses. Her brilliant speech called them out and received a standing ovation from a large majority of the chamber and is without a doubt, the most inspiring thing I have seen in debating.

I understand the way that the GUU “bear pit” chamber works, I have spoken in outrounds at Ancients since my first year and last year, was a guest speaker for the Facist party at one of the Union’s famous Parliamentaries. I am fine with speaking to the gallery and having audience members clap when they like a point and even say “shame” when they don’t. What I’m not okay with is people interrupting speeches to be misogynistic. It is difficult to speak confidently to an audience that is booing you for the sole reason that you are a woman in a dress talking about women’s rights, especially when you are the only girls in the final (which is depressingly often the case on the Scottish debating circuit). I realize that it was only a few men who don’t usually debate competitively that were involved with the heckling. The problem was that it was the entire Union that seemed to be weirdly proud of its misogynistic roots throughout the competition. The social Friday night was a pub quiz which included the question, “In 1980 the GUU had a vote to allow women into the Union. There is an annual dinner to honour the men who voted against the motion– how many men were there?” and the two GUU teams participating in the quiz whooped and banged their hands on the table in support of the voters against.

After the final, I had six separate members of the GUU, many of whom I have been friends with for years, approach me and give the exact same apologist speech – “I’m sorry that they did that, but they aren’t bad guys and it’s just how it is here and how they are. They are only joking”. We were told that that was the GUU and that it was “part of the course” and our fault for calling ourselves QMU A. My partner and I were a composite team, as Ancients is an Open, and Ancients has a policy of only allowing serious sounding team names. QMU was Glasgow University’s women’s union and as an all-female team (one of four at a twenty-eight team competition) the description fit. Later, as I was getting a drink, one of the men who was booing us said quite audibly “Get that woman out of my chamber” as his GUU friends, who had minutes ago apologised for his behaviour, laughed along.

This is my question: Members of the GUU clearly knew that this was something that happened. They knew that certain members would boo women if they spoke about women’s rights. Why on earth were they allowed to come to observe the final and why were they not asked to leave after or at the very least, issue a genuine apology to the speakers that they had rudely interrupted with their misogyny?

The reason that I am writing this post is because at Ancients, nothing has changed over the last three years. I remember when I was a first year, in 2011, the opening PowerPoint read “Proudly admitting women since 1980” with the word ‘proudly’ crossed out. I feel so sorry for the women that debate in that Union, especially because the reasoning for why none of them stand up against it as told to me by three senior GUU women was that that is just how things are done and “If you can’t beat them, join them” which is intolerable. The sexism of the GUU isn’t quaint and it is not a tradition to be jokingly celebrated. I appreciate the efforts of members within the GUU to make it better and maybe that incident needed to happen because we were told by many senior GUU female members that they couldn’t do anything about it without being laughed down. Until this is genuinely dealt with, as the director of training for the Edinburgh University Debates Union, I would be incredibly wary of sending female first years to Ancients next year and will certainly not be attending in the future unless there is assurance that this won’t happen again.

This controversy has been more frustrating than anything I have ever encountered in debating. I have spoken on motions that I thought were beyond the pale and I’ve had people say quite rude things to me in debates but I have never seen such an abysmal response from a Union for something so clearly sexist. I cannot imagine that if the same situation happened but audience members in a large final were shouting out racist or homophobic interjections the response from the hosting institution would be “That is just how it is done here” or “You provoked them with your team name”.

I would like to thank the CA’s Pam Cohn and John Beechnoir as well as the equity officer, John McKee, for making it exceptionally clear that these comments should not be tolerated. If only the GUU would do the same.

As is clear from the comments, this behavior is not universal — it seems to be a small obnoxious minority that are doing their damnedest to create an uncomfortable environment for women, while the majority approve of greater participation by everyone. But as we’ve learned on the internet as well, assholes everywhere are really good at cloaking themselves in the defensive armor of “Free Speech!” and doing their best to create a chilly atmosphere for genuinely open communication.

Comments

  1. Pteryxx says

    Men are not being constantly subjected to people advising them to close their legs, because they shouldn’t be having sex unless they want babies, are they?

    But it’s totes okay for The Men to have sex, because they get to externalise the costs. Corporate (as in fleshly) Responsibility!

    *spits*

  2. Matt Penfold says

    But it’s totes okay for The Men to have sex, because they get to externalise the costs. Corporate (as in fleshly) Responsibility!

    A few Hail Marys for fathering a child seems quite a bargain compared to the costs women bare.

  3. mythbri says

    @Andy Mansfield

    The death of a fetus is the same as the death of a born person?

    Then let’s treat it that way. Let’s jail all women who miscarry for negligent homicide, regardless of whether or not they wanted the pregnancies. There’s no statute of limitations on murder, so you’d better hope that none of the women in your life have ever had or ever will have a miscarriage. In fact, a lot of miscarriages happen before the woman even knows she was pregnant, so maybe we should just pre-emptively imprison all women who are sexually active. They will have killed an embryo or fetus sooner or later.

    Let’s jail all women who go into eclampisa, the only life-saving treatment for which is immediate termination of the pregnancy. They should have known better than to go into brain-damaging seizures, right Andy?

    Let’s jail all of the young girls who are raped at the onset of puberty, because first-time pregnancies at such a young age are extremely dangerous. You Catholics did the next-best thing with that nine-year-old in Brazil, where her mother was excommunicated for getting her an abortion while the man who raped her was not. How many Hail Marys does it take to be forgiven for raping a child, Andy?

    We don’t need to jail any of the women who get cancer or other life-threatening diseases while pregnant. Where abortions are illegal, those women die anyway. So they get the appropriate punishment for having had sex – I mean, for having the gall to get sick when they were pregnant. Also the fault of the Catholic church.

    Refraining from using Naughty Words gives you no edge over empirical facts sprinkled with swears, Andy.

    Fuck you.

  4. mythbri says

    Andy Mansfield, addressing nine-year-old rape victim:

    “Shame on you, you nine-year-old baby-killing abortionist slut. Didn’t you know that you could have just kept your legs closed? Take some responsibility.”

  5. blf says

    Refraining from using Naughty Words gives you no edge over empirical facts sprinkled with swears…

    “Naughty Words” are magical, just like women’s cooties. “allowing some forces all”, the viability of an 8-week fetus, the free SuperDooperDecodingRing in your breakfast cereal box, and eating certain crackers. Use of swearing means you’re controlled by Teh Forces Beyond Darkness™ who, being omipowerful, need your help and protection from the cooties.

    It’s obvious, really. Just disengage brain and repeat whatever you’ve been told.

  6. The Mellow Monkey says

    I’ve seen abortions done at 8/9 weeks and there certainly not a bundle of cells, the legs we’re on one side of the room and the arms we’re on the other, and the head was in the bin, that women is still in counselling.

    The entire body at nine weeks is about 18mm long. This is the size of a cocktail olive. This is the size of a clot a woman passes during her period. The limbs are roughly the size of a skin tag. Go ahead; take that image and reduce it down until it takes up 18mm on your screen. That is what you’re talking about.

    Yes, at nine weeks it is more than a “bundle of cells.” The cells have differentiated. There are organs and limbs present. It is in no way like what you’ve described, however.

  7. glodson says

    Why?

    To further explain why he has rights in the bodies of women that said women lack, which wouldn’t be a problem if women didn’t slut it up all the time.

  8. Anthony K says

    For the founding fathers of modern science, such as Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Descartes, and Newton, the laws of nature were changeless Ideas in the divine mind. God was a mathematician. The discovery of the mathematical laws of nature was a direct insight into the eternal Mind of God. Similar sentiments have been echoes by physicists ever since, they we’re all christians.

    And fuck you rightin the face, you lying asshole.

    But let’s bring it back to religion. I’ve a good hunch you’re about as stupid about Catholicism as you are about everything else.

    When I was a Catholic, dumbass Catholics in Name Only like you and your wife were the reason I realised the church was full of shit and a haven for cowards and liars.

  9. Anthony K says

    Andy, because you’re a chickenshit like your recent pope, you completely hid my comment about shipping fetuses straight to heaven.

    If I kill a baby in the womb, where does its soul go?

    And then think about what actually constitutes vulnerability, from a theological position, rather than just chanting “most vulnerable” like a goddamn parrot.

  10. Pteryxx says

    Why?

    And also to talk about his Feels, those nassty feminissssts, collecting abortions like trading cards, how mean we are to ordinary honest people who are Just Disagreeing ™ et cetera et cetera. I think I ran out of bingo cards to fill.

  11. la tricoteuse says

    mythbri:

    The death of a fetus is the same as the death of a born person?

    Nah. Worse.

    It might be almost the same as the death of a born man, but it’s definitely worse than the death of a born woman.

    According to people like Andy, anyway.

  12. Anthony K says

    The death of a fetus is the same as the death of a born person?

    Nah. Worse.

    It might be almost the same as the death of a born man, but it’s definitely worse than the death of a born woman.

    According to people like Andy, anyway.

    Only because they don’t understand the supposed justice of the God they pretend to worship.

    If a fetus is innocent of sin (other than Original Sin), then its death in the womb is better than any life outside, because it will have avoided the temptations of this Earth to follow the broad road and wide gate that leads to destruction.

  13. thumper1990 says

    I’ve seen abortions done at 8/9 weeks and there certainly not a bundle of cells, the legs we’re on one side of the room and the arms we’re on the other, and the head was in the bin, that women is still in counselling.

    PfffBWAhahaha! Yes, the 5 mm long limbs were on the opposite side of the room, and the 3mm head was in the bin. How do you think abortions are done? They don’t just stick a blender up there you idiot. The foetus doesn’t get dismembered in any way.

    This post is such blatant bullshit it’s insulting.

  14. thumper1990 says

    @Anthony K

    No no, that’s logic, we’re talking about faith. The two do not coincide. Ever.

  15. Rey Fox says

    I just have trouble fathoming the mind of someone who keeps willfully returning to repeat himself over and over again when he’s clearly not wanted or liked by anyone. Must be related to that all-important Catholic (male) right to intrude into other peoples’ business. That, or this is just one of those tribal skirmishes that the small-minded live for.

    I also wonder if the loving Jesus personally inserts an apostrophe into the middle of every “were” he types.

  16. Anthony K says

    No no, that’s logic, we’re talking about faith. The two do not coincide. Ever.

    Ah. Kind of like religion class in Catholic elementary school, where the biggest theological issue was which crayons to mix to make Jesus’ skin look appropriately swarthy.

    Great job, Andy! You never colour outside the lines!

  17. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    For the founding fathers of modern science, such as Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Descartes, and Newton, the laws of nature were changeless Ideas in the divine mind. God was a mathematician. The discovery of the mathematical laws of nature was a direct insight into the eternal Mind of God. Similar sentiments have been echoes by physicists ever since, they we’re all christians.

    See that’s the good thing about science, it’s self correcting.

    We’ve learned from the mistakes of the past and realized that the laws of Thermodynamics, mass conservation, Faraday’s Law, and all others have exactly zero to do with Christianity. The have to do with Physics.

  18. la tricoteuse says

    I am the worst person in the world because I am now picturing tiny little horses…etc…
    .
    .
    .
    …don’t mind me…*wanders off*
    .

    Anthony K:

    Only because they don’t understand the supposed justice of the God they pretend to worship.

    If a fetus is innocent of sin (other than Original Sin), then its death in the womb is better than any life outside, because it will have avoided the temptations of this Earth to follow the broad road and wide gate that leads to destruction.

    I am shocked, SHOCKED I TELLS YA, at the idea that a vocal religious nutbar might not know his own religion properly. Shocked.

    It all boils down to “but baaaaaaabies” for most of them anyway. Except when it’s “close your legs, you slut” of course.

  19. The Mellow Monkey says

    la tricoteuse

    I am the worst person in the world because I am now picturing tiny little horses…etc…

    I’m so relieved to know I’m not the only one.

  20. thumper1990 says

    @Anthony K

    Going out of your way to make Jesus “swarthy” at Elementary school age… you genius, the Nuns must have hated you :)

  21. la tricoteuse says

    The Mellow Monkey:

    la tricoteuse

    I am the worst person in the world because I am now picturing tiny little horses…etc…

    I’m so relieved to know I’m not the only one.

    I love this place.

  22. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Anyone else notice Andy is showing the Suspiciously Impressive Resume form of troll arguing?

    He’s an ex academic AND has worked at hospitals and been present to many odd satanic rituals he has mistaken for abortions.

    All the while showing no real experiece

  23. Matt Penfold says

    Anyone else notice Andy is showing the Suspiciously Impressive Resume form of troll arguing?

    I am just assuming everything he says is complete bollocks. He has not exactly shown himself to be a paragon on honesty after all.

  24. Anthony K says

    Going out of your way to make Jesus “swarthy” at Elementary school age… you genius, the Nuns must have hated you :)

    We didn’t have nuns by the time I reached school age. Here in Edmonton there are two school systems: Public and the Catholic. Students are free to attend either regardless of faith, so it’s not as fire and brimstoney as it once was, I guess.

    Besides, many of my fellow students were first generation Canadians of Italian and Portuguese heritage, so I wasn’t the only one. (Peach/Apricot + Raw Umber worked well. It was also an inner-city school, so the students whose parents could afford to buy them the large crayon sets had to guard that shit like gold.)

  25. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Most abuse is subtle I know that, however as far as I am aware I have not made any ad hominem attacks, apart from 1 or 2 others I am the only one.

    Actually, you make an ad hominem every time you dismiss an argument as coming from a feminist/leftist/protestant/atheist. Which happens frequently.

    Just insulting you isn’t an ad hominem. Like a lot of things, you don’t understand basic definitions.

  26. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Actually while it isn’t an actual ad hom fallacy (which is the bad part) it is a dick movie and in the spirit of one to just blindly ignore any valid questions because of vaguely defined “abuse”…and then refuse to give examples.

  27. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Fuck sorry, not a dick move, my bad

  28. thumper1990 says

    @Anthony K

    We didn’t have nuns by the time I reached school age.

    Probably for the best, I can’t imagine the Nuns in charge of your school hating you being much fun. Sorry for the assumption.

  29. says

    He is rare amongst Catholics who are not priests for being quite so open about how he wants women to die. So much so that I am not entirely convinced he is not trying to make Catholics look bad. It would be hard to think of a better way to bring Catholicism into disrepute.

    You are against free expression?

    My mother is a decent, kind, loving human being who just happens to cling to irrational long-held belief in an imaginary sky fairy because it makes her feel better. She acts out of love in everything she does. Never out of hate.

    You? Not so much.

    That’s a very hateful thing to say

    Ok, good. Then do you understand that the “feelings” you have been esposuing constitute a subtle abuse of women? That is why people here are so angry.

    I do but I would also never compromise my own feelings, just to please others, noone on this forum can claim the moral highground with claims of abuse, sorry.

    The death of a fetus is the same as the death of a born person?

    Then let’s treat it that way. Let’s jail all women who miscarry for negligent homicide, regardless of whether or not they wanted the pregnancies. There’s no statute of limitations on murder, so you’d better hope that none of the women in your life have ever had or ever will have a miscarriage. In fact, a lot of miscarriages happen before the woman even knows she was pregnant, so maybe we should just pre-emptively imprison all women who are sexually active. They will have killed an embryo or fetus sooner or later.

    In my eyes yes it is. Miscarriage is a accident, abortion is not.

    Andy Mansfield, addressing nine-year-old rape victim:

    “Shame on you, you nine-year-old baby-killing abortionist slut. Didn’t you know that you could have just kept your legs closed? Take some responsibility.”

    Where did I say that?

    Why?

    I enjoy it here, i’ll be on here till sunday, then I jet off to Thailand for a few weeks, so I won’t be on after that, sadly, it’s a beautiful place, has anyone been?

    If fetuses are unborn children, then I’m an undead corpse.

    We all kind of are, humans are just evolved pieces of meat

    Andy, because you’re a chickenshit like your recent pope, you completely hid my comment about shipping fetuses straight to heaven.

    If I kill a baby in the womb, where does its soul go?

    And then think about what actually constitutes vulnerability, from a theological position, rather than just chanting “most vulnerable” like a goddamn parrot.

    You obviously have issues with Catholics, i’ll leave you to work them out for yourself.

    No no, that’s logic, we’re talking about faith. The two do not coincide. Ever.

    I’m much more right brained than left brained thankfully and I prefer it that way, it’s much more fun and authentic, although obviosuly they won;t teach you that at University

    Actually, you make an ad hominem every time you dismiss an argument as coming from a feminist/leftist/protestant/atheist. Which happens frequently.

    Just insulting you isn’t an ad hominem. Like a lot of things, you don’t understand basic definitions.

    You are allowed to feel offended and I am not? Actually, you make an ad hominem every time you dismiss an argument as coming from a catholic

  30. says

    We all kind of areI have a feeling you would object to living and breathing human beings being treated like corpses, or with corpses being treated as if they were alive. Yet your cohorts think a fetus should get more consideration than the woman whose uterus it inhabits (ex: Savita Halappanavar).

  31. Rey Fox says

    noone on this forum can claim the moral highground with claims of abuse, sorry.

    Shredding your bad arguments is not abuse.

    Oh geez, the Catholic church doesn’t espouse oppressive policies and politics just to up their martyr cred with the Man Upstairs, do they? That’s twisted.

  32. Anthony K says

    Andy, because you’re a chickenshit like your recent pope, you completely hid my comment about shipping fetuses straight to heaven.

    If I kill a baby in the womb, where does its soul go?

    And then think about what actually constitutes vulnerability, from a theological position, rather than just chanting “most vulnerable” like a goddamn parrot.

    You obviously have issues with Catholics, i’ll leave you to work them out for yourself.

    Hey, fuck right off, coward. It’s called the Good News for a reason. If you know the answer, then out with it.

    You’re the asshole parrot. I’m working them out with you. You’ve dominated the conversation for long enough, it’s about time you start ponying up some goddamn answers, or get the fuck out of here.

    So, where does an aborted fetus’ soul go, Andy? Heaven or hell?

  33. Pteryxx says

    Where did I say that?

    You realize those words you wrote are still posted on the previous page, right? You did say “I say baby-killers”. You did say “you should just keep your legs closed.” You did say “women should take responsibility” i.e not be allowed to have abortions. Along with “buy one get one free”.

    I guess in your world, good Catholicks lie.

  34. mythbri says

    @Andy Mansfield

    In my eyes yes it is. Miscarriage is a accident, abortion is not.

    People are still held liable for accidents that kill people.

    And in countries controlled by your ever-so-precious Catholic church, women HAVE been jailed for having miscarriages, you disgusting piece of shit.

    I notice you did not address any of the other situations I mentioned in which abortion is necessary.

    And the satirical comment in which I pretended you would address a nine-year-old rape victim was compiled from things you’ve said right here in this very thread.

    Again, disgusting piece of shit. If humans basically just evolved meat, then fetuses are basically just evolved giblets.

  35. Anthony K says

    You obviously have issues with Catholics, i’ll leave you to work them out for yourself.

    No can do, fuckhead. We’ve indulged your issues with feminists for however long, so you don’t start getting antsy now. Time for you to cough up some fucking answers, you sleazy, spineless asshole.

  36. mythbri says

    Fuck, I can’t let this go.

    n my eyes yes it is. Miscarriage is a accident, abortion is not.

    One might even say….an act of God.

  37. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    noone on this forum can claim the moral highground with claims of abuse, sorry

    Says the Catholic

  38. Anthony K says

    noone on this forum can claim the moral highground with claims of abuse

    Actually, we can. Jesus was very explicit that abusing Christians for their beliefs is a good thing.

    You want blessings in heaven, dontcha?

  39. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    noone on this forum can claim the moral highground with claims of abuse, sorry.

    Says the abuser. Tell you what. Let’s all drop the abuse bullshit. Starting with you Andy. All references and complaints about all abuse cease, even of your poor catholic sensibilities. Then we might have an intelligent discussion.

  40. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Miscarriage is a accident God committing abortion, abortion is not.

    Fixed that for you. Your god is the biggest commiter of abortions in the world. Deal with it.

  41. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    You obviously have issues with Catholics, i’ll leave you to work them out for yourself.

    We don’t have issues with catholics. They are one of many godbots to be mocked and shown to be presuppositional fools. They aren’t singled out. You are the one pretending there is issues. Without evidence of course.

  42. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    You are allowed to feel offended and I am not? Actually, you make an ad hominem every time you dismiss an argument as coming from a catholic

    We don’t dismiss it because it comes from a catholic. We dismiss it because there is a lack of evidence to back it up, starting with the existence of your imaginary deity, your fictional/mythical holy book, and the sophistimacated theology based on those twin lies. It’s the lies and unevidenced assertions that you think is dismissing your arguments, which makes it based on the content, not the person making the argument. You have no idea what an ad hominem really is. Which helps to require you back up everything you say with evidence, not just your assertions.

  43. Esteleth, stupid fucking starchild Tolkien worshiping douche says

    Observe: Andy’s only comment on the death of Savita Halappanavar was to complain that someone was rude to him on the topic.

    So, Andy!

    Opine about her.

    She was pregnant – a wanted pregnancy, that she gloated about, that she happily welcomed, because she wanted to be a mother.

    She died of septic shock after being denied care.

    Explain that. Justify that.

    Justify it to her husband, to her parents, to her family.

  44. Ichthyic says

    We don’t have issues with catholics.

    well, I do, given that they represent the most destructive force ever organized under a single roof.

    little more than a giant organized crime family with ignorant dupes as supporters.

    hey, Andy…

    you should excommunicate yourself if you actually want to become part of what will HELP humanity progress instead of hinder it.

    here’s instructions:

    http://atheism.about.com/od/ideasforatheistactivism/a/Excommunication.htm

  45. Ichthyic says

    And a zygote becomes human like at around 8 weeks by the way

    I’m convinced Andy is not a student at Glasgow.
    At least, I’m hoping that someone this stupid wouldn’t be accepted into Glasgow uni to begin with.

    I also note that nobody is coming to his aid.

    wonder why that is, Andy….

    why are we bothering? Andy has nothing of substance to offer, only ignorance and multiple levels of unexamined privilege masquerading as “repression”. if this is the result of what the CC has to offer these days wrt education… we should speed its demise even faster, for the good of people like poor Andy!

    fuck the CC, fuck the Pope.

    deal with it Andy, you belong to the worst organization in all of human history.

  46. omnicrom says

    Andy I have to say that you are one of the most loathsome people to have popped their head in here in quite a while. You seem to take so much glee in trying to take the moral high ground and lying and endorsing policies that make life worse for billions of women and lying and erecting a little cross to hang on and lying and of course, lying. Your comments paint you as a truly horrible person, I can only hope that you do as little damage to the world as possible with your cheerful evilness.

  47. thumper1990 says

    @Andy Mansfield

    Ok, good. Then do you understand that the “feelings” you have been esposuing constitute a subtle abuse of women? That is why people here are so angry.

    I do but I would also never compromise my own feelings, just to please others, noone on this forum can claim the moral highground with claims of abuse, sorry.

    So you understand full well that what you are doing is abusing women, and yet you carry on anyway? Fuck you, Mansfield. Just fuck you.

  48. la tricoteuse says

    God and Not Saying Naughty Words are way more important than actual harm to actual people.

    That’s the Andy Mansfield worldview.

  49. la tricoteuse says

    Oh and Educated People Are Elitists Who Shouldn’t Come Round Here Being All Elitist At Us By Which I Mean Having Opinions About Stuff.

  50. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    , however as far as I am aware I have not made any ad hominem attacks,

    When you dismiss the speaker as elitist, you are engaging in an ad hominem attack. As has been repeatedly demonstrated to you, you don’t understand the definition. Insulting your intelligence while providing proof you aren’t playing with a full deck is not an ad hominem.

  51. says

    Shredding your bad arguments is not abuse.

    Oh geez, the Catholic church doesn’t espouse oppressive policies and politics just to up their martyr cred with the Man Upstairs, do they? That’s twisted.

    Neither is anything I have said, people need to stop playing the victim

    People are still held liable for accidents that kill people.

    And in countries controlled by your ever-so-precious Catholic church, women HAVE been jailed for having miscarriages, you disgusting piece of shit.

    I notice you did not address any of the other situations I mentioned in which abortion is necessary.

    And the satirical comment in which I pretended you would address a nine-year-old rape victim was compiled from things you’ve said right here in this very thread.

    Again, disgusting piece of shit. If humans basically just evolved meat, then fetuses are basically just evolved giblets.

    In no country I have ever been, has anyone ever been jailed for having a miscarriage, in fact in Ireland pro abortion is funded by wealthy elitist white americans

    http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/the-u.s.-billionaires-funding-the-push-for-abortion-in-ireland/

    I wouldn’t be a fan of abortion, get over it guys, not everyone has the same view as yourself, you’ll learn that as you get older.

    I would never call my unborn child a ‘giblet’ but if you wish to call your own that, you go ahead.

    fuck the CC, fuck the Pope.

    deal with it Andy, you belong to the worst organization in all of human history.

    At least you are open with your bigotry, you sound like a Glasgow Rangers supporter.

    So you understand full well that what you are doing is abusing women, and yet you carry on anyway? Fuck you, Mansfield. Just fuck you.

    I haven’t abused anybody, I fi have it’s miniscule to anything I have recieved.

    When you dismiss the speaker as elitist, you are engaging in an ad hominem attack. As has been repeatedly demonstrated to you, you don’t understand the definition. Insulting your intelligence while providing proof you aren’t playing with a full deck is not an ad hominem.

    I am not dismissing her, she’s doing quite well for her age, but oxbridge educated people are known all over the country as elitists, it’s not as if feminists are not shy to throw around the elitist tag, i watched a video recently of Meridith in which she accused middle class men as being elitist, accountants, plumbers, are a lot less elitist than oxbridge graduates, that’s for sure.

  52. says

    Andy I have to say that you are one of the most loathsome people to have popped their head in here in quite a while. You seem to take so much glee in trying to take the moral high ground and lying and endorsing policies that make life worse for billions of women and lying and erecting a little cross to hang on and lying and of course, lying. Your comments paint you as a truly horrible person, I can only hope that you do as little damage to the world as possible with your cheerful evilness.

    Likewise. I hope one day you may see that the hate filled, brainwashed, materialistic views and opinions, represented on here are not representative of the whole world and make life worse for the billions of people who have an opposing view.

  53. a_ray_in_dilbert_space says

    Andy Mansfield, I commend to you the words of Voltaire:
    “If they can make you believe absurdities, they can make you commit atrocities.”

  54. says

    ndy Mansfield, I commend to you the words of Voltaire:
    “If they can make you believe absurdities, they can make you commit atrocities.”

    Good point, the anti catholic brigade on here can take lessons from that also.

  55. Anthony K says

    Good point, the anti catholic brigade on here can take lessons from that also.

    Sorry, I’m not an elitist. I don’t bandy about the words of dead philosophers. What absurdities, exactly, does the anti-Catholic brigade indulge in?

  56. Rey Fox says

    What absurdities, exactly, does the anti-Catholic brigade indulge in?

    They don’t manifest until someone accuses the Catholic Church of them, upon which Andy employs the devastating “NO U” defense.

  57. says

    I fucking hate the Catholic Church. Individual Catholics I take on a case by case basis, but I do think less of them for continuing to support such an obviously corrupt, profoundly immoral criminal syndicate.

    So bite me, Andy. That doesn’t make me a bigot. It makes me a decent, moral human being. No person with a healthy sense of ethics and morality, AND a full understanding of the crimes committed and covered up by RCC, as well as the twisted and sick ideology they promote as “morality,” could possibly continue to call themself a Catholic.

    Which is it? Are you ignorant or are you a moral midget?

  58. omnicrom says

    Likewise. I hope one day you may see that the hate filled, brainwashed, materialistic views and opinions, represented on here are not representative of the whole world and make life worse for the billions of people who have an opposing view.

    Catholic policies have spread AIDS in Africa, repeatedly shielded child rapists, and killed women. They have actively made the world a worse place. I’d ask you to explain how atheism has made the world a better place but I don’t have to because I can already imagine how you’ll respond: You’ll break Godwin’s law, mention other totalitarian regimes, confuse a fetus with a fully born human being, and double-down on your absurd and fucking idiotic proposition that religious people have the right to not be offended by what other people say. And you’ll lie, lie, lie without an ounce of self-awareness or guilt. Fuck you Andy Mansfield.

  59. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Neither is anything I have said, people need to stop playing the victim

    No troll, you need to stop projecting your playing the victim unto us. You aren’t the victim. Neither are we. It was the women subjected to misogynist catcalls.

    I am not dismissing her.

    You are dismissing what she said because of what you perceive her to be, an elitist who deserves to the trashed and what she had to say ignored due to her education and place of education. That is the definition of ad hominem. You commit that which you rail against. Try shutting the fuck up. That way your hypocrisy and your pseudovictimhood is where is should be. Away from the public.

    Good point, the anti catholic brigade on here can take lessons from that also.

    What anti-catholic brigade? The one that specifically derides all things catholic and ignores protestant idiocies too? You won’t find that here. But then, you define anything that doesn’t agree with you and your church to be anti-catholic by definition. Personally, I am indifferent to the RCC until it tries to legislate or talk about its theology outside of its churches.

  60. Anthony K says

    and double-down on your absurd and fucking idiotic proposition that religious people have the right to not be offended by what other people say

    Not to mention that it’s unBiblical, as well.

    Why do you want to deny Catholics their blessings in heaven, Andy?

    Andy loves the parts of the Good News that says he can go to heaven; he hates the part where Jesus says getting there involves work, effort, scorn and derision.

    Andy, given your behavioural preference for the doctrine of sola fide, you may want to reconsider Protestantism.

  61. says

    You know, I suspect that Andy latest big blurt above (#555 – the neighbor of the beast) is just another big pile of stupid, but by totally borking the blockquotes, he has actually made himself look less idiotic. It’s cute.

  62. cm's changeable moniker says

    It’s almost like some kind of performance art … by reversing the roles of quoter and quoted, Andy forces us to deconstruct the internet commenting experience, daring us to to imagine that we are him, that he is us. Thus, reading becomes an act of communication, commenting an acceptance of the world as it is for others.

    /sokal

  63. cm's changeable moniker says

    i watched a video recently of Meridith in which she accused middle class men as being elitist

    Really? Care to provide a link?

    accountants, plumbers, are a lot less elitist than oxbridge graduates, that’s for sure.

    Hmm, I knew an Oxbridge graduate who ran the local authority’s social housing programme, and I used to know a plumber who drove a Lamborghini (colour: tangerine!) and who was about as right-wing elitist as you could get.

    Fear my anecdata!

  64. cm's changeable moniker says

    Meh, I was saving this, but I’m not sure I can be bothered anymore.

    Andy Mansfield

    If someone says something in a formal British Parliamentary debate, it doesn’t imply that they mean it. They might have been assigned to argue the opposite of what they actually think.

    Here are the rules:

    http://parliamentarydebate.blogspot.co.uk/2007/08/british-parliamentary-debate.html

    Now, you might want to go back to the OP or my handy summary at #350.

  65. says

    Hi guys, how is everyone today, well I hope?

    They don’t manifest until someone accuses the Catholic Church of them, upon which Andy employs the devastating “NO U” defense.

    I’m just against intolerance, that’s all

    I fucking hate the Catholic Church. Individual Catholics I take on a case by case basis, but I do think less of them for continuing to support such an obviously corrupt, profoundly immoral criminal syndicate.

    So bite me, Andy. That doesn’t make me a bigot. It makes me a decent, moral human being. No person with a healthy sense of ethics and morality, AND a full understanding of the crimes committed and covered up by RCC, as well as the twisted and sick ideology they promote as “morality,” could possibly continue to call themself a Catholic.

    Which is it? Are you ignorant or are you a moral midget?

    Thats a very bigotted thing to say Sally, many people myself included are great fans of the morals behind the catholic church, if you don’t like them, then that is your problem and not mine.

    You seem very ignorant and lacking in morals, are you another one of those women who took the easy option and got the abortion? tut tut Sally

    Catholic policies have spread AIDS in Africa, repeatedly shielded child rapists, and killed women. They have actively made the world a worse place. I’d ask you to explain how atheism has made the world a better place but I don’t have to because I can already imagine how you’ll respond: You’ll break Godwin’s law, mention other totalitarian regimes, confuse a fetus with a fully born human being, and double-down on your absurd and fucking idiotic proposition that religious people have the right to not be offended by what other people say. And you’ll lie, lie, lie without an ounce of self-awareness or guilt. Fuck you Andy Mansfield.

    I think you’ll find people having sex outside of marriage and homosexual sex has spread aids, not catholicism, if my wife was carrying a fetus i would do my best to protect my child, perhaps you wouldn’t but then everyone is different.

    What anti-catholic brigade? The one that specifically derides all things catholic and ignores protestant idiocies too? You won’t find that here. But then, you define anything that doesn’t agree with you and your church to be anti-catholic by definition. Personally, I am indifferent to the RCC until it tries to legislate or talk about its theology outside of its churches

    Likewise how people define anything that doesn’t agree with feminism as misogyny, it’s no different, you have just been taught to think it is different,

    Andy, given your behavioural preference for the doctrine of sola fide, you may want to reconsider Protestantism.

    No thanks, that wouldn’t be for me, i’m not into marching.

    I also do not understand why feminists are so angry about people disrupting a lecture when they were the ones who started that trend off

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qodygTkTUYM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARHCxAMAO0

    Someone asked me for evidence of that and when I provided the link on past 340, every single person conveniently chose to ignore it, they won’t be getting any sympathy from me. They got heckled? So what?

  66. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    They got heckled? So what?

    Intentional obtuseness is your shtick isn’t it?

    Do these catholic morals include the intentional cover up of thousands of cases of child abuse by their members?

    Does it include turning a blind eye to Argentinian dictators who kidnap priests?

    Does it include knowing that the policy of being anti-birth control kills millions?

    Apparently so.

  67. says

    Intentional obtuseness is your shtick isn’t it?

    Do these catholic morals include the intentional cover up of thousands of cases of child abuse by their members?

    Does it include turning a blind eye to Argentinian dictators who kidnap priests?

    Does it include knowing that the policy of being anti-birth control kills millions?

    Apparently so.

    If you don’t like Catholicism then that is your problem and not mine, abortion kills millions also, yet you don’t see that as bad, a child is much more likely to be abused by a non catholic than a catholic, so i fail to see your point there, should I label all Muslim people as bad just because of the antics of Osama Bin Laden? Or all Americans as bad because of the actions of their colonial Government

  68. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    I’m just against intolerance, that’s all

    By showing your own intolerance. Gee, POT, KETTLE, BLACK
    Criticism=/=intolerance. You work by some non-standard definitions

    Thats a very bigotted thing to say Sally, many people myself included are great fans of the morals behind the catholic church, if you don’t like them, then that is your problem and not mine.

    It isn’t bigotry to condemn to the church for their moral lapses. It is bigotry on your part to call it bigotry. You lose again, on definitions.

    Likewise how people define anything that doesn’t agree with feminism as misogyny, it’s no different, you have just been taught to think it is different,

    You act like you can’t learn, and better yourself. The problem you can’t face is not treating women as 100% human with the same rights and privileges as you is by definition misogyny. And you can’t complain if somebody calls it what it really is. You have some real problems.
    moar later

  69. says

    I’m just against intolerance, that’s all

    But harassing women just because they’re women, that’s not intolerance. It’s good Catholic, Glasgow culture and anyone who disagrees is an elitist bigot.

    We get it. You’re a scumbag. You don’t need to rub it in anymore, it’s perfectly clear by now.

  70. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    a child is much more likely to be abused by a non catholic than a catholic

    You are spectacular at missing the big picture.

    The Catholic Church claims moral superiority yet it institutionally covered up its members, who were supposed to be the messengers of this morality, systematically raping children in their care.

    Moral superiority huh?

  71. Anthony K says

    We’re still dealing with this elitist bullshit?

    How the fuck is anything more elitist than a goddamn debate club?

    Frame a fucking house, ya bunch of uppity university basket-weavers.

  72. Esteleth, stupid fucking starchild Tolkien worshiping douche says

    So I guess Andy doesn’t give a shit about women who are dying of wanted pregnancies gone wrong.

    Wonder if that is because she was (1) brown or (2) not Catholic.

    Nah, what am I thinking? Andy doesn’t care because bitches ain’t shit.

  73. hotshoe, now with more boltcutters says

    Andy-

    Thats a very bigotted thing to say Sally, many people myself included are great fans of the morals behind the catholic church, if you don’t like them, then that is your problem and not mine.

    You seem very ignorant and lacking in morals, are you another one of those women who took the easy option and got the abortion? tut tut Sally

    Fuck you, Andy, you dogdamned bucket of slimy pigshit.

    You deserve every bad thing anyone has ever said to you in your whole life, and more.

    You’re the reason why decent people hate religion, and hate religious bigots like you. You know who’s to blame for “anti-catholic brigades”? You are. Yes, you personally. If you weren’t such an overt fucking creep, ordinary humans wouldn’t see catholics as overt fucking creeps in general. You’re such a fine example.

    Now, fuck off. Your kind is not welcome in this space.

  74. cm's changeable moniker says

    I also do not understand why feminists are so angry about people disrupting a lecture when they were the ones who started that trend off

    If you think public disruption started with feminism, you’re clueless. Read some history.

    If you think that’s what happened here, you’re wrong. Read my #350.

    Someone asked me for evidence of that and when I provided the link on past 340, every single person conveniently chose to ignore it

    Take a dictionary. Look up the meaning of the word “irrelevant”.

    While you’re at it, look up “stupid”.

    (If it’s an illustrated dictionary, it should have a picture of you, right there. Bask in the glory, dude.)

  75. thumper1990 says

    @Andy Mansfield

    So you understand full well that what you are doing is abusing women, and yet you carry on anyway? Fuck you, Mansfield. Just fuck you.

    I haven’t abused anybody, I fi have it’s miniscule to anything I have recieved.

    That’s because you think “abuse” = “nasty words”, you fucking illiterate.

    I’m just against intolerance, that’s all

    Unless that intolerance is misogyny, then you’ll defend it to the hilt! Again, fuck you, Mansfield.

  76. thumper1990 says

    Or all Americans as bad because of the actions of their colonial Government

    Did America have an Empire I was unaware of?

  77. Rey Fox says

    Wow. To think, in the past I thought I was cynical. I could never top the cynicism, nay, outright nihilism of Andy’s comment #571.

  78. says

    …a child is much more likely to be abused by a non catholic than a catholic…

    Only because Catholics are a minority. Proportionally, Catholics are massively over-represented in abuse statistics:

    Over half of the religious authority cases involved perpetrators and victims who were Catholic, even though Catholics comprise only around 25% of the U.S. population

    Bottoms, B. L., Shaver, P. R., Goodman, G. S. and Qin, J. (1995), In the Name of God: A Profile of Religion-Related Child Abuse. Journal of Social Issues, 51: 85–111.

  79. Ichthyic says

    @Andy:

    I’m just against intolerance, that’s all

    I think I posted the directions for how to excommunicate yourself from the CC already.

  80. thumper1990 says

    @cm’s changeable moniker

    Oh, so it’s more a… sphere of influence than an actual, occupied Empire? “Cultural Imperialism”, I think is the term?

    Thank Jeebus for that. I thought that was a massive hole in my historical knowledge.