[Thunderdome]
This is Thunderdome, the unmoderated open thread on Pharyngula. Say what you want, how you want.
Status: UNMODERATED; Previous thread
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
This is Thunderdome, the unmoderated open thread on Pharyngula. Say what you want, how you want.
Status: UNMODERATED; Previous thread
chigau (違う):
February 9th, 2013 at 10:46 am
It’s a risk.
But I’m bored.
darwinharmless:
February 9th, 2013 at 10:54 am
“To be bored is to insult your own intelligence”. – Samuel Johnson, or maybey Dr. Johnson. One of those old English dudes.
darwinharmless:
February 9th, 2013 at 10:55 am
You’re bored, I’m pissed. Strange evening.
chigau (違う):
February 9th, 2013 at 11:00 am
darwinharmless
There’s your problem.
It’s morning, not evening.
And it’s snowing.
redwood:
February 9th, 2013 at 11:06 am
Today’s literary snippet courtesy of Stephen Crane:
“Think as I think,” said a man,
“Or you are abominably wicked;
You are a toad.”
And after I had thought of it,
I said, “I will, then, be a toad.”
Did that get all you iconoclasts cheered up a bit?
Beatrice:
February 9th, 2013 at 11:17 am
I finished today’s Set in 47 Secs. Beat that!
And you are wrong, chigau, it is evening.
ironflange:
February 9th, 2013 at 11:18 am
I AM ZIM
theignored:
February 9th, 2013 at 11:26 am
Well, time for something to piss all of you off!
Get a load of the sermon that the friendly atheist found!
This is some of what poor Hemant had to listen to:
Anyone think that attitude maybe explains the constant lack of funding for education in the states? Or is that going a bit too far? Still, people like that guy can’t help.
One wonders how he was able to keep a wife in the first place.
theignored:
February 9th, 2013 at 11:27 am
Ok. shit. Botched that right up. At least the links work. Too bad there’s only supposed to be ONE effing link!
chigau (違う):
February 9th, 2013 at 11:29 am
My Set time was 3:24.
Beatrice, do you have the Set pop-up blocker installed?
(It’s overcast but the sun is definitely up.)
(and the cat wants to go out. She doesn’t do that at night.)
(QED)
joey:
February 9th, 2013 at 11:30 am
athyco:
Are you attempting to shame my wife and me for the family dynamic that we have chosen? Just want to be sure.
And “by YOUR choices”? So my wife is completely incapable of making such choices for herself? Or are you suggesting that I forced my wife into this situation?
———————-
myeck waters:
But this reasoning can also apply to the woman “choosing” to go back to work, right?
You can argue that we lack free will, as long as you remain consistent doing so.
Beatrice:
February 9th, 2013 at 11:34 am
Nope, don’t have the blocker.
I must be imagining the dark outside, all the street lights being on and the room getting kinda dark when I turn the light off. Oh well, if I don’t get better, I’ll have to go and take a long nap in a couple of hours.
myeck waters:
February 9th, 2013 at 11:35 am
You didn’t hear a word I wrote. *sigh*
You really are a piece of work. You respond to a comment AS IF you had actually read it…and then you proceed to completely ignore what was written.
joey:
February 9th, 2013 at 11:41 am
myeck waters:
Why not just answer the question?
Dhorvath, OM:
February 9th, 2013 at 11:45 am
Joey,
I would make a distinction between enthusiasm and freedom. I have little doubt that there are people who have enthusiasm for the situations in which they find themselves, I know I am about my life and have trouble imagining that I am alone in that perspective. But to suggest that I have reached this solely on a considered approach to how my life might turn out is to discount the influence that culture at large, my specific social circle, and my past experiences have on my inclinations. You may not be aiming at the position that you believe you and your partner have reached where you are in the exclusion of these factors, but it’s been very hard for me to escape that conclusion in reading your comments here.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls:
February 9th, 2013 at 11:48 am
Why don’t you stop being deliberately stupid and answer our questions. Like why do you keep posting your presuppositional and unquestioned idiocy like it is the TRUTH, rather than the opinion of someone who never questions their presuppositions?
robertbaty:
February 9th, 2013 at 11:48 am
Here’s the link to the latest Forbes feature on the developing Kent Hovind story:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2013/02/08/is-irs-persecuting-kent-hovind-for-creationism/
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
February 9th, 2013 at 11:49 am
Joey
Because the question was answered in Myeck’s previous post, and has been answered, over and over and over again, throughout at least the past 2 thunderdome threads, you disingenuous asshole.
Chris Clarke:
February 9th, 2013 at 11:50 am
fucking hell, Joey’s still yammering on about “my wife”? I should go get my copy of the DSM, see if his picture’s in the “Defensiveness” entry.
Amphiox:
February 9th, 2013 at 11:51 am
Why should he? What makes you think yourself entitled to a response when you do not bother to read HIS post in good faith or respond in good faith?
irisvanderpluym:
February 9th, 2013 at 12:18 pm
@robertblaty 17 (from your link):
$25 million. TWENTY-FIVE MILLION DOLLARS.
What a tragic fucking waste.
myeck waters:
February 9th, 2013 at 12:27 pm
dishonest joey:
I would have answered an honest question. But you don’t ask honest questions.
In point of fact, that particular question was asked as your way of avoiding the very same thing I was talking about.
You are still avoiding it.
And trying to deflect attention away from your avoidance.
Which is yet another data point on the Joey Chart of Dishonesty.
Pathetic.
georget:
February 9th, 2013 at 12:36 pm
Pizza, when covered with nutrition-minded toppings, is a healthy and delicious food.
Beer, when enjoyed in moderation, is refreshing.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 12:44 pm
georget improved:
Delicious pizza and beer and a boozing shrimp is a good health food for the soul.
georget:
February 9th, 2013 at 12:57 pm
It is a delight to converse with Janine: Hallucinating Liar. Is there anything else you might want to discuss?
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 1:05 pm
georget improved:
I think I want to talk about the jazz.
georget:
February 9th, 2013 at 1:11 pm
I like music too!
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
February 9th, 2013 at 1:13 pm
Fucking hell, geroget! Did you go to Comrade Bob’s Trolling Academy, or is there just something about dipshit libertarianism that destroys a person’s ability to communicate in writing?
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 1:13 pm
georget improved:
I love all the songs of joy.
Amphiox:
February 9th, 2013 at 1:15 pm
georget seems to be edging ever closer to the creepy-harassment boundary condition over which comradebob crashed and burned.
georget:
February 9th, 2013 at 1:18 pm
I smell entrapment. But music is a gift from Deity nonetheless. Concord and discord, harmonics and frequencies, in all a glorious canvas upon which we may seek to make our mortal mark. Do you like Coldplay?
rowanvt:
February 9th, 2013 at 1:20 pm
@”Georget”
Bob…. is that you?
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 1:21 pm
georget improved:
Available on the Internet. This music you want to listen to the harmony of heaven and Disharmooni, the famous Sao Paulo a gift, but I think faith?
Chris Clarke:
February 9th, 2013 at 1:23 pm
It’s what FEDGOV THOUGHTBLOG does.
PZ Myers:
February 9th, 2013 at 1:25 pm
Georget, you are sounding exactly like ComradeBob, and sharing the same obsessions — behavior that got him banned. I think you’re next, unless you knock it off immediately.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
February 9th, 2013 at 1:35 pm
The FedGov thing is what convinces me that he’s not comradebob. Bob never used the term, and people who talk about the FedGov never shut up about it. I’m just waiting for him to bust out “ChiCom” too. As I said over on the solar thread, FedGov is a particular shibboleth of the heavily armed, white-supremacist libertarian right.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 1:45 pm
Also, I think the shitbag was an atheist. Or at least he never brought up a belief in a deity. Georget has.
athyco:
February 9th, 2013 at 1:46 pm
Well, first thing I’m going to do before reading the rest of joey’s post to me is to point out some grammar.
By your choice–the choice that you and your wife have made. Nowhere in that post is there an intimation that you (singular) have forced your wife into anything.
“Your” is also plural. As in, I asked the couple, “Is this your choice?”
Now I’ll read the rest.
Markita Lynda—threadrupt:
February 9th, 2013 at 1:51 pm
Work outside the home is a sanity-saver for many women who would otherwise be deprived of adult company. An independent pay packet and bank account bolsters a sense of self-worth. You can see why insecure husbands might feel threatened. What’s that saying? “Women are mirrors with the delightful quality of reflecting men at twice life-size,” approximately? Dependency is bad for the soul and bad for relationships.
It was different when men and women both worked in the fields and the farm wife ran several home industries from producing eggs, milk, pork, honey and beer to weaving thread and fabrics and clothing the family.
athyco:
February 9th, 2013 at 1:58 pm
Damn. I didn’t realize that if joey could latch onto “your,” that he’d ignore all the rest about education, employment gap, work experience, insurance, and Social Security.
Don Quijote:
February 9th, 2013 at 2:17 pm
Not sure if anybody cares but abear is now in Ed’s place continuing to shit on Tethys and Pharyngula.
Tethys:
February 9th, 2013 at 2:25 pm
Thanks Don Quijote. I will go defend my honour.
carlie:
February 9th, 2013 at 2:44 pm
Ah, I think we’ve come to the heart of the problem. joey, nobody’s suggesting that you’re a controlling monster who forced your wife to stay at home so that you could continue to go to work. We’re saying that the choices you both made were not completely unfettered by societal expectations. Let me share with you an example. My husband stayed at home with our kids. We had to deal with a lot of grief for that. Short list: mothers eyeing him with suspicion on the playground because he was a man around children, doctor’s offices and school offices always calling my number with child emergencies even though his was listed as the first contact, my parents giving us sad little “oh, that’s ok, so nice for you” responses to information about our lives, his parents giving him more blunted “so, when are you going back to work” messages, our kids’ friends’ parents getting uncomfortable when they realized it was him home when the kids came over to play instead of me, people I work with alternately making either jealous comments (wish I had a man who would cook and clean!) or condescending ones (oh, your husband…doesn’t have a job, then?), secretaries looking at us strangely when we filled out the forms at the doctor’s office with “stay at home parent” next to the blank for his occupation.
None of those were overtly hostile to the situation. None of those people thought they were judging us. None of those, by themselves, were really awful things. But it’s been a nonstop flow of that kind of thing for years. And none of that would have been there if I’d been the one to stay home instead. That would have been fine. That’s what’s expected. That’s the kind of thing we mean when we talk about whether it was truly a free choice or not; one of those choices is easy and supported by society, the other is hard and will constantly get a background level of rebuke.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 3:45 pm
If you desire such a thing, you can watch abear act like a complete fool at Ed’s blog. I would suggest not answering to him, it is completely off topic. But it is so funny when a troll thinks the troll has a point.
Tethys:
February 9th, 2013 at 3:58 pm
I’m done with abear. It’s the least I can do in exchange for my sniny new troll title.
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 9th, 2013 at 4:00 pm
Oh goodness me, abear is just going to milk that for all it’s worth. I note that neither Tethys the Possessed nor Chris Clarke the Evil have bothered to show up on his doorstep with broken bottles and banhammer.
Tethys-chosen vessel of Lolth:
February 9th, 2013 at 4:01 pm
arggh…forgot to hit the update profile button.
cm's changeable moniker:
February 9th, 2013 at 4:01 pm
blarget:
Actually, this is true. I had a really delicious Pizza Express Fiorentina the weekend before last.
Its relevance to anything here is questionable.
John Morales:
February 9th, 2013 at 4:03 pm
cm, trolling is trolling.
(As in: “I posted the most innocuous comment, and was chided for it!”)
Ogvorbis:
February 9th, 2013 at 5:29 pm
Wife and I are working to lose weight, mostly by limiting carbs (and fat (but if we limit the carbs, the fat usually takes care of itself)) and have been pleasantly surprised how well pizza (both restaurant and home made) fits into the healthy eating.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 5:34 pm
Road Pizza
That’s good
Gotta get me some road food
cicely (Nothing to see here; move along now!):
February 9th, 2013 at 5:41 pm
I don’t usually hang out in Teh ‘Dome, only I heard this rumor that there were macadamia nut cookies over here….
-
evilisgood:
February 9th, 2013 at 5:45 pm
Cicely, it’s true! I baked some the other night. Check your USB port. Should be some en route.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
February 9th, 2013 at 5:47 pm
Janine
I missed that in the word salad. It makes sense, though. The class if rhetoric that involves FedGov references is very much a ‘god, guns , and oil made America great’ sort of thing.
cm's changeable moniker:
February 9th, 2013 at 5:49 pm
Hmm. I remember the Hanson brothers. There were only three of them though.
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 9th, 2013 at 5:53 pm
Cicely:
There are, kindly offered (and made) by evilisgood. Mind, they are evil.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 5:58 pm
I am perplexed.
A mash up of Kylie Minogue and NoMeansNo?
A palette cleanser is needed. The real version of Now by NoMeansNo from 0+2=1. In my little corner of the world, it is a stone fucking classic.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 5:58 pm
Tag. I’m it.
Dhorvath, OM:
February 9th, 2013 at 6:04 pm
I see what you did there.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 6:06 pm
cm’s changeable moniker, The Hanson Brothers were a side project of a band called NoMeansNo. NoMeansNo plays rather complex, jazz inflected punk rock. The Hanson Brothers were a concept band. What if The Ramones were hockey playing Canadians. The results were just as goofy as it sounds.
I loved it.
Blitzgreig Hops
Hey! You! Let’s brew!
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 6:08 pm
Fucking YouTube is recommending a girlwritewhat video for me.
Ogvorbis:
February 9th, 2013 at 6:12 pm
I thought the Hanson Brothers were the bad boys in Slap Shot.
But my lack of cultural knowledge is well known. Given the crowd here, my ignorance is internationally known.
Wow.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 6:19 pm
Ogvorbis, the band I have been talking about named themselves after the goons.
markbarker:
February 9th, 2013 at 6:19 pm
http://individual.utoronto.ca/somody/quiz.htmlhttp://individual.utoronto.ca/somody/quiz.html
We need to petition this site to get PZ in their quiz!… {grin}
–MAB
Ogvorbis:
February 9th, 2013 at 6:21 pm
Ah.
Sorry.
cicely (Nothing to see here; move along now!):
February 9th, 2013 at 6:25 pm
*nomming cookies*
Thanks, evilisgood—and so are the cookies!
-
evilisgood –> cookiesisgood –> cookiesisevil? evilscookiesisgood’n'evil?
-
The Game is imminent!
*leaves with cookies in hand&mouth*
-
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 9th, 2013 at 6:26 pm
Ogvorbis:
You can place me on Team Huh? as well. I’m abysmally ignorant of pop anything and almost always have to search stuff when it comes up. I remain as I was as a sprog, with my nose buried in a book most of the time. And since I pay no attention to ‘bestseller’ lists and the like, I’m generally ignorant of popular mass books too.
cm's changeable moniker:
February 9th, 2013 at 6:26 pm
Hanson brothers. MMMBop.
Yes, I went there!
cm's changeable moniker:
February 9th, 2013 at 6:29 pm
*cackles*
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 6:30 pm
I had a Hanson Brothers (band) t-shirt at the same time the band Hanson were popular. I had to keep pointing out that it had nothing to do with MMMBop. Never mind the hockey motif the shirt had.
(Seriously, can anyone who knows me think I would like MMMBop?)
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 6:32 pm
You fucking die, cm’s changeable moniker.
(Slymies, quote mine this!)
cm's changeable moniker:
February 9th, 2013 at 6:32 pm
The scary thing is that in 20 years’ time, that’ll be internet commenters’ idea of classic rock.
Sic transit gloria mundi and all that. ;-)
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 6:35 pm
You Fucking Die!
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 6:38 pm
I am so pop savvy, Caine. I have not listened to Top 40 in over thirty years.
(Yes, I am aware that I know almost every Top 40 of the seventies. It is not like I am proud of it.)
Ogvorbis:
February 9th, 2013 at 6:39 pm
I have a problem with the fact that the stuff I loved in high school (and the stuff I loathed!!!) are now classic rock. If I remember it, it cannot be classic!
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 9th, 2013 at 6:42 pm
Janine, you really don’t want to know how poor I am with music, either. I wasn’t really paying attention in the ’70s, any more than I pay attention now, which isn’t much.
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 9th, 2013 at 6:44 pm
Oh gods, I’m at a point in Manhood in America where I have to read quotes from Hoff Sommers. Blecch.
cm's changeable moniker:
February 9th, 2013 at 6:45 pm
Hah! Not unless you got ten million pounds of sludge from New York and New Jersey!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yHrEykOGpo
(Actually, now I come to think of it … arrgh …
Old Mr Bear:
February 9th, 2013 at 6:47 pm
PZ just wrote a piece entitled “Come on, Ken, you can say it.” I followed the link over to the Answers in Genesis page. Whenever I read stuff like this my feelings of frustration slowly escalate. By the time I finished reading the article my frustration levels were nearly unbearable. Add a dash of feeling impotent and hopeless and I wonder why I bother surfing the net at all. I’m just glad there are folks out there who can move past the frustration and actually communicate, with knowledge.
What really caught my eye was the spin (redirection?) the author (Mitchell) used when addressing the Facebook inquirer’s message. Mitchell prefaces a quotation from the inquirer by writing “Frustrated with the difficulty of obtaining the published research data, he graciously wrote:” (followed by an excerpt from the Facebook post). As if the real problem was a lack of publicly available research data.
If the quotation is complete, the only frustration I can spot is the responder’s frustration that Mitchell didn’t provide links to any relevant research.
Then again at the end of the article, Mitchell complains that the relevant research material is hidden behind copyright laws and not freely available to the public. She continues how she would be required to purchase rights to the material and even then “fair use” requirements would severely limit sharing the information. Damn government and greedy capitalists make it so difficult for truth seeking creationists.
It’s a minor point I know. (simple things, my simple mind… or something like that.)
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 6:48 pm
We’ve Only Just Begun-Curtis Mayfield
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 7:53 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvolxqq4kpENothing’severgonnastandinmyway(again)
Fucking YouTube is recommending an other girlwritewhat video.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 7:54 pm
That worked out well.
Old Mr Bear:
February 9th, 2013 at 8:16 pm
Kimmel’s “Manhood in America” does not appear to be Kindlized.
Fortunately Holland’s “Misogyny” does come in a Kindle version. If the foreword and introduction are any indication, I’d better get my chores done now, cause once started I’ll never be able to put it down. I have such poor self-control in that way.
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 9th, 2013 at 8:31 pm
Okay, finished up Manhood in America: a cultural history by Michael Kimmel. That was an engrossing and excellent read, learned a lot. I’m looking forward to what Esteleth has to say about it. Now it’s on to Guyland by Kimmel.
X-posted.
A. Noyd:
February 9th, 2013 at 8:37 pm
I think I could win all contests involving failing to know pop music since I don’t listen to any music willingly. Well, with the occasional exception for things like Prairie Home Companion’s spoof of Les Mis.
cm's changeable moniker:
February 9th, 2013 at 8:38 pm
Have you ever been tickled …?
Bentley Rhythm Ace – Let There Be Flutes
I’ve actually been listening to rather heavy rap music, so this is a let-off. ;-)
FossilFishy(Anti-Vulcanist, with a perchant for pachyderm punditry):
February 9th, 2013 at 8:40 pm
With a facebook friend posting pics and memories from the 80′s and Janine putting up Nomeansno vids I know when I’m beat.
Surrendering to nostalgia:
The Enigmas, Windshield Wiper
The Pointed Sticks, Out of Luck/Somebody’s Mom
The Young Canadians, Hawaii Do I have to add a NSFW tag in the Thunderdome? NSFW
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 8:44 pm
My Little Japanese Cigarette Case-Spoon
LykeX:
February 9th, 2013 at 8:46 pm
Completely off-topic: How easy is it to get access for example through libraries? My library gives me access to most articles I want. It even allows for online access through their website. All you have to do is go to the library and set up a user account, all free.
Is that a rare thing out in the world?
cm's changeable moniker:
February 9th, 2013 at 8:48 pm
I should, of course, if posting BRA, post this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-iks7Xhpp8
Bentley’s Gonna Rock Ya.
It’s obligatory.
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 9th, 2013 at 8:52 pm
LykeX:
I don’t know. Depends on the library, I imagine. University libraries are fab in that respect, but most of us don’t have access to those once we’re loooooooong out of school.
georget:
February 9th, 2013 at 8:54 pm
The sidewalk of Placencia, a stroll to the east, and toes find themselves immersed in warm sand. The waves, slowly and rhythmically engaging the beach. An umbrella casts a shadow under the light of the full moon. She sighs, content for the first time since she can remember. Finally free from… them. In the distance, a guitar strums. Straining, she attempts to better perceive the features of the silhouette, and the meaning of the music.
chigau (違う):
February 9th, 2013 at 8:57 pm
georget #92
Bland and sophomoric.
2.5/10
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 8:59 pm
georget improved:
Cement, sand and ondz experience, starting this month at his home in Larsen, the beach. But I never forgot you, that is the mind. In the rest of his days. Training tools, music, family or try and at the top of the screen.
Ogvorbis:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:01 pm
Is georget attempting some sort of performance fart?
Ogvorbis:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:02 pm
Damn.
Sorry.
That ucking ‘f’ is not supposed to be there.
Though it does sorta fit?
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:03 pm
Janine:
Why bother? They’ll just soak it up as attention and as PZ has already given one warning, I’d rather not engage until the banhammer hits.
Well, each to their own, I’ll just use my killfile and shut up about what everyone else does now.
chigau (違う):
February 9th, 2013 at 9:06 pm
georget improved #94
Poetic and evocative.
7.5/10
—-
Ogvorbis
the fart makes more sense
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:08 pm
Caine, it amuses me.
Delicious pizza and beer and a boozing shrimp is a good health food for the soul.
Who can’t laugh at a boozing shrimp?
cm's changeable moniker:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:12 pm
I tried bad translating this. It ended up indistiguishable from Chekhov.
I’m reading Chekhov.
I’m now slightly concerned as to the relevance of Russian literature. :-/
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:14 pm
Ogvorbis:
I think performance fart is an exquisite descriptor. Keep it.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:14 pm
You Turn Me On I’m A Radio-Joni Mitchell
Ogvorbis:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:15 pm
Sorry.
Didn’t realize that georget has been busy ’round here.
Not only do I disengage, but I’m heading for bed.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:17 pm
That is the result of a bad translation.
Old Mr Bear:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:20 pm
LykeX:
As Caine said, it will depend on the library. And on how much effort I want to expend. Some stuff is just hard to get. On the other hand it’s amazing how much info I can get with a little effort. And if I’m really stymied, asking for help from the relevant researchers themselves usually gets results. Just gotta show some real interest, respect and patience.
In regards to the AIG article, the whole issue was just a rhetorical diversion. I have little doubt that the author had all the resources necessary to find and communicate the research involved.
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:22 pm
G’night, Ogvorbis. Sleep sweet.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:27 pm
Smackwater Jack
And on the whole, it was a very good year for the undertaker.
Am I the only one who thinks of the undertaker from Yojimbo when this line is sung?
chigau (違う):
February 9th, 2013 at 9:28 pm
Dreamless sleep, Ogvorbis.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:30 pm
Another Long One-Shawn Colvin
ChasCPeterson:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:32 pm
When I was young (1960s and 70s; highschool class of 1977), “oldies” stations played music of the 1950s and early 60s. The music of 30 years ago was, like, Benny Goodman and the Andrews Sisters and shit. Now the music of 30 years ago is played every night in the bar I hang out at. My daughter (16 yo) wears Beatles and Pink Floyd t-shirts. That would be like me, at her age, wearing, like, Bing Crosby and Tommy Dorsey t-shirts when I was 16 in 1975. No way!
Something’s different or the evolution of popular (only?) music has slowed down or something.
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:35 pm
Chas:
You whippersnapper. (class of ’75 here.)
dysomniak, darwinian socialist:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:38 pm
Yeah, or being into Woodoy guthrie and Pete Seeger. No one listened to those guys in the seventies.
Do you imagine culture should progress in a linear fashion?
morgan:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:39 pm
Babies, babies. Class of ’67 here. And was present during the Summer of Love in San Francisco. Good times.
dysomniak, darwinian socialist:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:39 pm
Fucking tags, how do they work?
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:45 pm
I had a friend in collage, who, in the early eighties, changed her name to Woody because she was a fan.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:49 pm
I saw a person using “It nice to be nice to the nice.” as a tagline. And I know where it is from.
Weep for me.
morgan:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:49 pm
Janinie,
How about Odetta? Or Hedge and Donna?
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:53 pm
Morgan:
Braggart. :p
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:56 pm
Who Needs The Peace Corp?
Sorry. I had to.
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 9th, 2013 at 9:59 pm
Janine:
:tears on my tentacles:
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 10:00 pm
Trouble-Iris DeMent
mildlymagnificent:
February 9th, 2013 at 10:00 pm
I’m even older, primary school in the 50s. So I have one 20yr old and one younger in the house in the early 2000s, and it’s like walking through a broken time warp machine. Innocently doing not much on a Saturday morning, and I hear a young Frank Sinatra followed by Rage Against The Machine followed by Ella Fitzgerald ….. then Patti Page, The Cat Empire, Ben Folds Five, Billie Holiday, Nat King Cole, Louis Armstrong and even South Australia’s contribution to the world of pub bands – Working Class Man sung/croaked/roared by Jimmy Barnes. Then maybe some Bach or Mozart.
All well and good bringing up kids to appreciate all kinds of music wherever it’s found. It’s a bit jarring to hear the result sometimes.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 10:06 pm
In meat space, people keep me away from the music player. I will play some Wiemar era cabaret songs and follow it up with some Jesus Lizard. Or Temptations followed by Sonic Youth. They think I am trying to cause mood whiplash on purpose.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 10:15 pm
Cloud 9-Temptations
In The Kingdom #19-Sonic Youth
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 10:33 pm
Goo Goo Muck-The Cramps
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 9th, 2013 at 10:39 pm
Good Things Happen To Bad People-Richard Thompson
theophontes (坏蛋):
February 9th, 2013 at 10:46 pm
恭喜發財 !!!
(May your New Year be Slithery.)
rowanvt:
February 9th, 2013 at 11:04 pm
The superstitious part of me wants to make a little shrine with offerings to Murphy for the year of the snake to leave my corn snake breeding pairs alone!
theophontes (坏蛋):
February 9th, 2013 at 11:27 pm
@ rowanvt
We have very many of those around my part of the world. “Corn snake breeding pairs” sounds interesting…
myeck waters:
February 10th, 2013 at 12:01 am
As the youngest of five kids, my musical tastes were borrowed from my older sibs, so I was several years out of step. The music that popular when I was a teenager? When that insipid pap started getting played as Classic Rock I was pissed off for a decade.
evilisgood:
February 10th, 2013 at 1:29 am
YAY cookies!
From previous thread:
Big Rhonda Rousey fan right here. I’m very pleased that Dana White finally saw the potential of women’s MMA. He was resistant to it for many years. It’s exciting!
rowanvt:
February 10th, 2013 at 1:36 am
@Theophontes:
I have two lines going as my main interest. One I’m breeding purely for temperament, the other to create a solid black corn snake. The others are het testing for the most part. I’ve 7 females going this year, though I’ll be dropping down to just 3 next year. I’ve had strange odds the previous years.
Tony the Dancing Telegram Queer Shoop:
February 10th, 2013 at 3:21 am
Oh, that poor, oppressed abear. The dear was subjected to harsh criticism and a barroom brawl threat that ultimately was nothing more than a joke. I loved seeing him talk about lawyers and
terrorist threats. How heavy is the head sporting a slymepit crown?:
Re:pizzas-
Years ago, shortly after I first met M, in an attempt to make better choices for our health (he wanted to start working out and wanted my advice on healthier eating. Homemade pizzas made with sandwich wraps, pizza sauce, lots of cheese and turkey peperoni. Sometimes drizzled with EVOO, or fresh herbs. One wrap with enough toppings often provided a full meal. This also works for quick late night snacks.
theophontes (坏蛋):
February 10th, 2013 at 4:09 am
@ rowanvt
Beautiful snakes those. It appears though they are only found in the USA.
Sadly, the only snakes I ever see here (China) are for the pot…
ﴡ
Nick Gotts (formerly KG):
February 10th, 2013 at 5:36 am
It’s simple: the music of our youth (class of ’72 here) is objectively better than that of our parents’ or our childrens’ youth ;-)
Giliell, professional cynic:
February 10th, 2013 at 6:29 am
I wished it were that easy to turn them into one….
carlie:
February 10th, 2013 at 7:45 am
True. Why you never leave high school:
georget:
February 10th, 2013 at 8:19 am
I want to be good.
ChasCPeterson:
February 10th, 2013 at 8:32 am
Yeah, or being into Woodoy guthrie and Pete Seeger. No one listened to those guys in the seventies.
Not sure what your point is. First, I was explicitly talking about ‘popular music’, and those guys were never on the radio. And second, not very many people did listen to Guthrie and Seeger in the seventies. Some people listened to Dixieland jazz or accordian polkas or Wagner in the seventies too, but, see, I’m not talking about niche music. (I was a youthful jazz elitist myself; the tastes of my classmates ran to the Eagles and Steve Miller and Zeppelin but I was into Eric Dolphy and Miles).
Do you imagine culture should progress in a linear fashion?
um, what? There was no ‘imagine’ or ‘should’ in my comment; it was just an observation.
ChasCPeterson:
February 10th, 2013 at 8:34 am
If you can imagine blockquotes above, you should.
carlie:
February 10th, 2013 at 8:44 am
Imagine all the blockquotes, it’s easy if you try,
Typos below us, unclosed tags awry.
Imagine all the comments
formatted correctly AHAHAHA
You may say I’m a bad typist,
Well I’m not the only one.
I hope someday the preview
Will void all mistakes, every one.
ChasCPeterson:
February 10th, 2013 at 8:48 am
nice
Ogvorbis:
February 10th, 2013 at 8:49 am
Tpyos!
mildlymagnificent:
February 10th, 2013 at 9:10 am
Funny about that musical tastes thing. I remember my mother getting all hot under the collar about ‘entertainers’ coming to the community centre where she lives and presenting stuff like “Roll Out The Barrels” and similar old-time stuff. “That’s my parents’ generation music! Not ours!” (She’s 88 this week and there is nothing in the world that she wants, needs or won’t find something odd to say about, in the way of a gift. I have no idea what to get.)
She wants the eras of Frank Sinatra and The Beatles as well as a bit of WW2 music and all those film musicals. The stuff from when she was going out dancing and when her kids (my lot – the baby boomers) were doing the same.
That’d be ages 15 to 35/40ish, I suppose.
Antiochus Epiphanes:
February 10th, 2013 at 9:29 am
At all times, there is music that is artistically compelling. Aperiodically, music that is artistically compelling is also popular.
Maybe people who grew up with it might be able to comment more appropriately (graduated in 1991), but it seems like this kind of happy conjunction happened in the latter half of the sixties.
I don’t actually know how popular music sounds nowadays. Maybe it’s awesome.
Ogvorbis:
February 10th, 2013 at 9:36 am
My music, on my mp3 player, is Woody and Arlo, Pete Seeger, Ian & Sylvia, Kingston Trio, Styx, Limelighters, Beethoven, Bach, Brahms, some Broadway musicals, Paul Simon, Bob Dylan, The Beatles, Peter Gabriel, Phil Ochs, Dizzy Gillespi, etc. Pretty much what I listened to in high school.
dysomniak, darwinian socialist:
February 10th, 2013 at 9:41 am
umm, psst, Chas! Zip up, your ignorance is showing!
consciousness razor:
February 10th, 2013 at 9:51 am
It could be due in part to just having access to a longer history of recordings. Sure, there were recordings in the 1920s from the 1890s or whatever, but most didn’t survive very long and most people couldn’t afford them. People growing up now can easily get exposed to something like Pink Floyd without being a fan or deliberately searching out music like that: their grandparents have recordings, their parents, their friends’ friends, youtube has recordings, MTV and VH1 used to have recordings…. and most of those are all still around to be enjoyed.
Why is it often something like Pink Floyd, rather than some obscure and more crappy band from the same era? Because it’s not as obscure or crappy.
Ogvorbis:
February 10th, 2013 at 10:00 am
consciousness razor:
Good point.
I remember, back in the early 80s, trying to find Woody Guthrie records. Or The Weavers. Or even some Kingston Trio other than the three greatest hits albums, the Hungry i, and one other. Now I have far better access to folk music of the fifties and sixties than I did 30 years ago. Makes it far easier to be eclectic.
Antiochus Epiphanes:
February 10th, 2013 at 10:04 am
The Internet is Teh awesome in exploring music in a way that wasn’t possible, like,…before the Internet. I used to have to go to the record store and talk with the clerk or owner to figure out what sounded cool, or what was new, or what I would like. And sometimes I’d hear about things from friends too, but I always had to plunk down a few bucks to get a record that I hadn’t likely heard yet, and that entails all kind of risk when you only have a few bucks and evolutionary spans of free time that must be filled with sound.
I don’t feel romantic nostalgia about this.
I spent all last week listening to black metal on the internets, for the sake of satisying curiosity. I didn’t have to buy anything. Then I spent like two hours listening to Throbbing Gristle, and didn’t have to buy anything either. I could not have done this in the nineties. It was liberating.
SallyStrange: Elite Femi-Fascist Genius:
February 10th, 2013 at 10:28 am
I have no problem finding new awesome music to listen to, even though I’m still fond of the Breeders, the Red Hot Chili Peppers, Us3, and Digable Planets. Not to mention, I still find it quite fun to go to contra dances.
For instance, I urge everyone to check out Janelle Monae, here performing “Tightrope” with Big Boi and a large brass section. With her narrative arcs, her musical complexity, and her sci-fi alter ego, she puts me in mind of David Bowie sometimes.
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 10th, 2013 at 10:29 am
The power just went out. *sigh*
myeck waters:
February 10th, 2013 at 10:46 am
I discovered Janelle Monae thanks to comments in here. Hurray for the Internets!
rrede:
February 10th, 2013 at 11:10 am
@ Joey: So not debating the huge free will issue (got tired of that in college), but let me ask you a question:
Do you believe truly and freely and deep down in your heart that a woman may choose entirely of her free will as you define it never to marry, never to have children (to in fact not even want to marry or have children), never have to be dependent on anybody, let alone a man, for her survival, and, to move away from the negatives, can choose to pursue a doctorate and and a job and her own interests entirely unfettered by having to limit her choices in any way by her “responsibility” to another human being, and in effect, to be responsible (insofar as any one individual can be completely responsible in a culture) for her own life, money, retirement, etc. (luckily being privileged by being white and coming from a middle-class family before Dad ran off with graduate student in this oh yes completely hypothetical situation), and be completely and utterly happy and not feel in the least deprived?
Do you really claim that you feel no sense that perhaps there’s something wrong with her, that she’s just “making the best” of nobody wanting her, that she’s somehow unnatural (by your definition, totally NOT inflected by social attitudes or narratives, nope, no way, arrived at in complete isolation)?
Do you even know any women who fall into this cateogory?
Have you ever seen how people treat women who fall into this cateogory?
And finally, why are you so desperately invested in receiving some validation here for your and your wife’s totally free choices?
And do you have her permission to be talking about her all over these threads?
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 10th, 2013 at 11:36 am
Godsdamn, I am freezing. I want my power back!
Pteryxx:
February 10th, 2013 at 11:57 am
I’ll just leave this here:
http://lifeinc.today.com/_news/2013/02/08/16887815-male-caregivers-face-gender-bias-at-work?lite
—
*buries Caine in warm rats*
rowanvt:
February 10th, 2013 at 12:00 pm
@Theophontes:
You might be able to find them as pets there in China. I know there are some people in Japan and Taiwan that have corn snakes and breed them. They are fabulous pet snakes because they don’t grow very large and are usually very docile.
http://imageshack.us/a/img690/270/dier3113.jpg
That’s Dier, my sunglow and the sire that is helping me restart the line for temperament. He is a truly fabulous snake.
Beatrice:
February 10th, 2013 at 12:00 pm
Caine,
I’m sorry.
*hands over warm blankets and a cup of hot chocolate*
rowanvt:
February 10th, 2013 at 12:02 pm
*Offers Caine several warm blankets, 4 cats and a rather fluffy small dog*
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 10th, 2013 at 12:08 pm
Pteryxx:
They’re already doing that because *they* are cold. I only got one cuppa tea, too. *feels even whinier*
Just saw a power company truck go by, hopefully we’ll have power back in a couple hours. Note to self: buy more candles, idiot.
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 10th, 2013 at 12:09 pm
Thank you, Beatrice & Rowan!
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
February 10th, 2013 at 12:10 pm
Caine
I’ve just reheated some coffee, I’ll put some in the USBs.
@music:
I still listen to a lot of the music I grew up with (The Corries, Tannahill Weavers, Silly Wizard, Steeleye Span, Bob Dylan, Pete Seeger, the Everly brothers; I grew up listening to my dad’s records a lot), but I’ve also been able to find new music that I like too (thank you, internet). I’ve been really liking Anggun lately.
Pteryxx:
February 10th, 2013 at 12:16 pm
new nym: Caine, giant snuggie for chilly ratties!
The Mellow Monkey:
February 10th, 2013 at 12:20 pm
Yikes. Stay warm, Caine! Hopefully they get the power back on quickly. If I could send my absurd pile of extra blankets through the computer, I would.
morgan:
February 10th, 2013 at 12:46 pm
I learn something new every day, with luck. I never knew one would or could breed snakes for temperament. Amazing.
Caine, I hope your power if back on. If not, here is a huge pile of 65 degrees F from my neck of the woods. (Pretty close to Chris Clarke, BTW) I actually wish it were colder.
Cuddle the ratties.
morgan:
February 10th, 2013 at 1:34 pm
Janine:
Apologies, I didn’t see your “Who Needs The Peace Corps” – Frank Zappa post until just now. I’m laughing my ass off. Good one. Thanks, I needed that.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 10th, 2013 at 1:38 pm
Am I wrong to assume that my links to girlwriteswhat condoning omestic violence and being a MRA are being ignored?
carlie:
February 10th, 2013 at 1:50 pm
Oh, I have such a crush on her. She’s fantastic in oh so many ways.
Yikes, Caine! Hope they get the power back soon. And then you can make up for the hours off by cranking up the heat for awhile?
morgan:
February 10th, 2013 at 1:52 pm
Janine:
Didn’t get those links. I’m confused.
Ogvorbis:
February 10th, 2013 at 1:57 pm
Janine:
Of course he’s ignoring them. Because PENIS!
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 10th, 2013 at 2:00 pm
Morgon, that was about the neolplum99 thread and an obvious troll called patrickdoyle.
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 10th, 2013 at 2:04 pm
Power is back, yay! Now I have to get stuff done. Darn.
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 10th, 2013 at 2:07 pm
Carlie:
Just came back on, phew. Space and house heaters are cranking as we speak.
carlie:
February 10th, 2013 at 2:16 pm
Yay!
morgan:
February 10th, 2013 at 2:26 pm
Hooray for warms!
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 10th, 2013 at 3:07 pm
FUCK. The power is fluctuating again.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 10th, 2013 at 3:37 pm
Just in case you are missing out on georget’s latest exhibition of troll performance art.
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 10th, 2013 at 4:34 pm
The Performance Fartist hath been kissed by the banhammer. Until the next puppet shows up.
ChasCPeterson:
February 10th, 2013 at 5:44 pm
ummm, hey, buddy: thanks for posting your content-free comment specially to insult me!
But you’re right: I forgot about the Weavers.
cm's changeable moniker:
February 10th, 2013 at 6:19 pm
So it turns out the heavy rap music (my #86) samples the same track as (my previously-posted) cuttlefish porn:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aOGLtZCFBw8#t=142s
Bonus points for anyone who can work out what I’m listening to! It’s not the Herbaliser. ;-)
cm's changeable moniker:
February 10th, 2013 at 6:29 pm
… sorry, cuttlefish ultra-violence and porn. I missed the crab-stabbing bit at the beginning.
cm's changeable moniker:
February 10th, 2013 at 8:11 pm
What I’m listening to.
Soave sia il vento
These fuckers are making shit up
Let’s chuck them in the pool
The last has pietra mesmerica for the win.
cm's changeable moniker:
February 10th, 2013 at 8:16 pm
*sigh*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=6Wi7UsXW1As
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEoKVn-o7QM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCWxbfFIflE
If you could use those links, that would be more helpful.
Dhorvath, OM:
February 10th, 2013 at 8:18 pm
There is a poor link there cm. Just the first.
cm's changeable moniker:
February 10th, 2013 at 8:44 pm
Aha! Thanks, dhorvath, the urls need the “v=”. Got it.
Esteleth, OH NO ZEBRAFISH ABORTION IN MORDOR:
February 10th, 2013 at 8:47 pm
So, I finished Manhood in America. Fascinating!
Found a quote that resonated deeply:
I’ve noticed this as well! A lot of the conservative types (and many EvPsych types seem to be conservative) seem to have these deeply regressive views of men as barely restrained rutting beasts.
And they call us “misandrists”!
The above was x-posted in the Lounge.
Caine, I read Guyland a few years ago. It is also quite good. And profoundly depressing.
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 10th, 2013 at 9:21 pm
Esteleth:
Yes, so have I. It’s hard to ignore just how often anti-feminists are deeply misandrist. Same goes with rape apologists – Bill Openthalt was arguing ‘rape is male nature’ in the NYT thread recently. Didn’t get it at all how misandrist that view happens to be.
About Guyland, yes, it explains a great deal, but it is depressing.
cm's changeable moniker:
February 10th, 2013 at 9:22 pm
Huh. No-one took the cuttlefish challenge …
It was Nas – Illmatic – One Love.
mythbri:
February 10th, 2013 at 9:44 pm
@Caine #187
I haven’t read either of the two books that you and Esteleth are talking about, but that view will never be understood as misandrist until people become more aware of, and intolerant of rape culture. As long as violence is sexy and sex is violence, “rape as male nature” will be seen as something masculine, although it’s a prime example of toxic masculinity.
I’m sure all of that was covered in the books. Just connecting the dots for myself. I wish people like Bill Openthalt would, too.
By the way, is there discussion of rape culture in the books you’ve been reading, put in context of masculinity?
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 10th, 2013 at 9:56 pm
Mythbri:
I haven’t finished Guyland yet, but yes, it’s addressed in Manhood in America, albeit indirectly. There’s more focus on the history of violence being an accepted part of masculinity, and not just accepted, but considered to be a vital part of masculinity. There’s also a great deal on the culture of entitlement, which is the basis of rape culture as we know it now.
Guyland deals more explicitly with the “boys will be boys” notion and I think it will also deal with rape culture more directly, but I’m not deep into yet.
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 10th, 2013 at 9:58 pm
but I’m not deep into it yet.
*sigh*
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 10th, 2013 at 10:02 pm
One thing that is addressed in Manhood in America is how and why men think that the best way to revenge themselves on another man is to rape his wife/daughter/mother, and that historically, rape has been about putting another man in his place – women have simply been the objects in attaining that goal.
Pteryxx:
February 10th, 2013 at 10:08 pm
Guyland should, going by what Kimmel had to say about bro culture and Steubenville:
(spoilers, I guess)
http://msmagazine.com/blog/2013/01/24/the-18437-perpetrators-of-steubenville/
via Ophelia: http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2013/02/no-one-ever-rats-out-a-fellow-bro/
Pteryxx:
February 10th, 2013 at 10:08 pm
er *should deal with rape culture more explicitly. Oops.
athyco:
February 10th, 2013 at 10:38 pm
Hello, Pharyngula. My name is Yvonne. Oh, “athyco” is still fine, please.
Why tell you? Because I made the mistake of trusting a near-’pitter who got my email addy through my comments either on his blog or YouTube channel. He sent me what seemed to be a sincere request, and I answered him. Today, he replied to a ‘pitter’s comment on his blog identifying me as Dixie/Yvonne. (Dixie is part of my YouTube name.) There’s nowhere but my email that he could have gotten it, and no one on his blog who wouldn’t know whom he meant with just plain “Dixie.”
So here I am. It’s a weird combination of feelings, but mostly grrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 10th, 2013 at 10:51 pm
Jesus, Athyco. I’m so sorry! My identity isn’t exactly difficult to find, but it’s still very much a betrayal when people out you.
rowanvt:
February 10th, 2013 at 10:55 pm
Athyco, let me also “GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR” with you.
In other news, I’m reading this *gag* wonderful *gag* book titled “You lost me” which is all about reasons why young folk are being less committed to christianity and how to get them back.
I’m reading this because my best friend from high school (a catholic high school, which began my journey towards atheism) wanted to do a discussion of the book with her friends and wanted input from various levels of faith, from extreme to none at all. I happen to be the none at all.
However, this book is damn painful to read. The author has no idea how condescending he often comes across, and uses some lovely catch phrases like ‘scientism’ and calls those of us who were christian but now don’t believe at all ‘prodigals’. I started reading it early January. I’m only 60% of the way through. I can usually take down an 800 page novel in 2 days and this book is nowhere near that long. I just have to put it down frequently before I start chewing on my kindle.
-_-
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 10th, 2013 at 11:05 pm
Aw fuck, Rowan. That sounds an awful mess to be stuck with. Best of luck with the discussion.
athyco:
February 10th, 2013 at 11:24 pm
If my telling him that he’s got the passive-aggressive cowardly swipes down pat is enough to make him think, Caine, it’ll be good.
And I’m about as boringly bullet-proof nowadays as they come. Heck, I share a property line with the dead Methodists, and the pastor thinks I’m one of the almost mythical good atheists. (During yardwork, I gather up the blown-away fake flowers even if they’re in the ditch across the street. And I made a wire pen for them so the families could find them on their next visiting day.)
rowan, I think I’d hate the book, too, but the discussion might turn out better than expected if you can give them some terminology examples that they’d not like to show that he’s doing that to others. Gah! Hard to tell, isn’t it, when you know you’re going to have such a planned range in the room. (And thanks for the harmonic grrrrrrrrr.)
theophontes (坏蛋):
February 10th, 2013 at 11:37 pm
@ rowanvt
From the Dutch for “Animal”?
What a beauty. Sadly, I’ll have to look on from afar. What with four hungry cats in a tiny flat, I’ll have to put off my dreams of a menagerie for a while.
@ athyco
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
stevenbrown:
February 10th, 2013 at 11:37 pm
Mmmm music.
I’m listening to a cat named Jacam Manricks atm.
One big difference in the way music is made these days in comparison to yesteryear: Live performance. Since recordings came along the opportunities for muso’s to get regular paying gigs has diminished. I’m talking about gigs like playing live music for radio theater and so forth. Or playing five nights a week at a club.
Might be different in the US but here in New Zealand unless you are in Auckland, Wellington or Christchurch your chances of finding live music happening are fairly slim.
Harder still to find Jazz gigs so I’ll admit I am a little biased.
stevenbrown:
February 10th, 2013 at 11:37 pm
Oh. I should have said: Live music that isn’t a covers gig.
Caine, poisoned chalice:
February 10th, 2013 at 11:52 pm
And just in case anyone is interested in my never ending reading list, next up after Guyland is Assholes: A Theory by Aaron James. Mister just finished it and declared it good. We both got a laugh out of a passage early on which declared Dawkins an asshole. James is right, but for the wrong reasons (It’s not because he was mean to the goddists. It’s because he’s privilege blind and sexist.) Hee.
JesseW, the Juggling Janitor:
February 11th, 2013 at 12:57 am
Responding to coelsblog’s comment, here…
I’ve read your (lengthly) re-cap of your discussion on your blog. I agree with your paragraph that begins: “That wording was poor”. I also sympathize with your encouragement to avoid hyperbole and escalation.
However, I do notice that nowhere in your re-cap do you mention any discussion you had with people supporting Shermer’s “side”. This suggests to me that you haven’t done any such discussion. Once again, I ask, is this correct?
rowanvt:
February 11th, 2013 at 2:17 am
@Theophontes:
I have 4 cats as well! Just make sure the lid is secure and you’ll be okay. Also, no, I had no idea that dier meant ‘animal’! It’s from my conlang and means ‘fire’. Many of my snakes are named from my constructed-language that I like to work on. Torandre means “at last” (lit. ‘this finally’). Vanay (actually vane) is an exclamation of surprise. Ferenea is ‘snow’. Leshen is ‘silver’. Essan is ‘red’.
Athyco and Caine, thanks for the encouragement on the book. I’m gonna need it, as the discussion is on the 21st. Must… finish…. stupid ass book…
Jon Trollstein:
February 11th, 2013 at 2:42 am
John Morales:
February 11th, 2013 at 2:51 am
Jon Trollstein, you’re wrong.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 11th, 2013 at 2:53 am
Just in case anyone missed it, there’s a nifty new script for greasemonkey at the wiki that converts embedded videos into links.
Jon Trollstein:
February 11th, 2013 at 2:58 am
What do you mean?
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
February 11th, 2013 at 3:52 am
athyco
That sucks. I’m not at all committed to my anonymity, I’m totally safe, but it would still kind of piss me off.
Jon Trollstein
Seriously? You call yourself trollstein and dump a video without comment or explanation? That’s your best shot?
thetalkingstove:
February 11th, 2013 at 3:53 am
Apropros of nothing, really, other than general theme of sexism, but I was unlucky enough to see the latest episode of the Big Bang Theory over the weekend. In the opening scene Sheldon complains that Leonard has had too much oestrogen and as a result is behaving like a whining woman.
i don’t watch the show out of choice normally, as it’s all the same jokes recycled over and over, but this was just horrible.
John Morales:
February 11th, 2013 at 4:08 am
Jon Trollstein:
What’s your confusion?
Clearly, that video doesn’t make the point you imagine it makes.
Therefore, you are wrong.
(duh)
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 11th, 2013 at 4:11 am
thetalkingstove:
Oh hell. I really had hoped it would get better.
joey:
February 11th, 2013 at 4:21 am
Dhorvath:
I understand what you’re saying. But just because one isn’t “enthusiastic” about making a particular choice doesn’t necessarily mean that “freedom” isn’t involved in making that choice.
I have admitted to the existence of social pressures numerous times. My point is that it is still possible to make a free decision even with all these factors involved.
———————
myeck waters:
How is it not an honest question? This is what you said…
And I asked whether this reasoning can also apply to the woman choosing to go back to work.
If the answer is yes, then the point is essentially that ALL choices are made in part by programming, including the choice for a woman to go back to work after having children. Alright, fine…ALL choices are in part the result of social factors.
But if the answer is no, then there would obviously be an inconsistency. You would have to explain why a woman’s “oh-so-rational decision” to stay home is more “programmed” than a woman’s decision to go back to work.
As I’ve said, I agree about the social pressures. But in our case, my wife has received MUCH more pressure to go back to work rather than to stay at home. We grew up in households where both of parents worked (out of financial necessity), and daycare was our grandparents for most of our childhood. My wife has a bachelors degree in finance, and numerous family/friends have questioned why she would “waste” her degree just to stay home. Her own mother has pressured her to go back to work, since that is what she did when my wife was a child. Her dad still expects her to go back to grad school. Her younger sister is a climbing up the corporate world even with a brand new baby (her parents are used as daycare).
When we had our first child up in New England (not exactly the hotbed of conservatism), the vast majority of younger couples with children chose the daycare route. With the exception of one family, we didn’t personally know any mothers at the time who chose to stay home after having their first child. Since then, we have moved down south (exclusively due to cost of living reasons) where it is more common to see stay at home parents. But still, the pressures for my wife to go back to work remain from family and friends and most especially former classmates/co-workers, not to mention the shaming that she gets once in a while that isn’t too much different than some of the posts you see here.
————
athyco:
Thanks for the clarification. But you have to admit given the context of this conversation where numerous posters have argued that my wife “didn’t have a choice” or “much of choice” in staying home, the phrase definitely needed some clarification.
As for the rest of your post listing the cons of a stay at home parent, we are definitely aware of all those disadvantages. But you focused only on one side of the choice. What about the advantages for a stay at home parent? The advantages for both parent and child are obvious and plentiful, and there is no need to list them out. For some families, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages that you listed, not to mention they are in a more stable financial position that would allow for such a choice.
My wife and I don’t think we’re “foolish” in making this decision for her to stay home. Although it has certainly been very tough on her physically and mentally to stay home to raise four children (have I mentioned before that she has by far the tougher job?), she has made the choice willingly and we both feel it has been best for the entire well-being of the family. You and others may not believe me when I say this…it doesn’t matter.
———————————
carlie:
I can agree with that.
Thank you for volunteering you and your husband’s story. I certainly commend your husband’s choice to stay home, and I’m certain he made the decision willingly out of concern for what is best for the family, despite all the grief that he expected to receive.
I understand how one choice can be considered “harder” than the other, but that doesn’t necessarily mean the “easy” choice is always more “free”. Like I’ve asserted above, my wife choosing to stay home after our first child can be considered more difficult than if she decided to go back to work. The societal pressures of urban New England in 2005 is not quite the same as they were in 1955, or even some rural middle-America town now. But again, just because it may have been “easier” for her to choose to go back to work doesn’t necessarily make that decision any less “free” either.
——————–
rrede:
Absolutely.
No, I don’t claim that there is “something wrong” with such a person. Not every man/woman has the vocation for marriage.
Yes.
Yes, I can see how such women can be stigmatized. I don’t think it’s right to look down on a woman (or man) simply because she (he) chooses not to get married and have a family.
I’m not. I’m just pointing out that a woman deciding to stay home can actually be a free decision on her part. If you followed the conversation from the start, it has been suggested right off the bat that due to “patriarchal pressures” a woman choosing to stay home isn’t really considered to be a truly free choice. Such a blanket statement is complete hogwash, and it has been my attempt to reason that it is hogwash. People can claim that such a decision is stupid and foolish all they want, but please don’t claim that it isn’t a decision at all.
coelsblog:
February 11th, 2013 at 4:23 am
@ 204
JesseW, the Juggling Janitor:
Yes, that is correct. At the time I participated in two FTB threads (on Greta’s and Ophelia’s blogs) and then wrote about it on my own blog, I had not discussed this issue anywhere else. (I did subsequently post a couple of remarks on Harriet Hall’s post about this.)
I don’t normally read any Shermer blogs and my knowledge of this was from reading FTB posts and things, such as Shermer’s replies, linked to from those.
John Morales:
February 11th, 2013 at 4:27 am
coelsblog, “I don’t normally read any Shermer blogs”?
(How many does he have?)
coelsblog:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:11 am
@216 John Morales
I’ve no idea how many (if any) he has (but if there are any they are not ones I usually read).
ChasCPeterson:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:28 am
nice straw caricature you got there
theophontes (坏蛋):
February 11th, 2013 at 5:42 am
Pope resigns, dancing tardigrades are called for.
Bob Dowling:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:57 am
So, the pope is standing down. He says it is because of his advancing age, but I wonder if there’s about to be another scandal about to hit. (As opposed to all the preceding scandals, that is.)
Text of resignation message
theophontes (坏蛋):
February 11th, 2013 at 6:07 am
@ Bob
Seems to be some financial scandal brewing… :D
carlie:
February 11th, 2013 at 6:20 am
Wait a minute, maybe we’re arguing about different things? There are two types of pressure/decisions here: whether anyone stays home, and then who stays home. I heard a record scratch in my head reading that, because I thought the main argument you have recently been making was that there was no pressure for your wife to stay home instead of you. Because in that case, you’d be under about ten times as much pressure to go back to work as she would. If the argument is simply about whether she stays at home or you have daycare, that’s a different argument. Still pressure on women to stay home instead, but not as much as the pressure for her to be the one who stays home if a choice of one of the two has to be made.
Jon Trollstein:
February 11th, 2013 at 6:47 am
I am not trying to make a point. I just saw this viral video and put it here to see what people make of it.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls:
February 11th, 2013 at 6:56 am
If you don’t have a point, why post it? That is the prerogative of the blog owner, not casual posters trying to stir shit, to do that.
Jon Trollstein:
February 11th, 2013 at 7:54 am
Do look at the rest of the sentence.
UnknownEric, meanypants extraordinaire.:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:00 am
What I’m listening to right now (much too loud, considering I have a headache, but…)
carlie:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:08 am
Jon trollstein – why should anyone care to comment on it when you drop it in with no context or statement whatsoever?
Matt Penfold:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:28 am
Why would you think we would want to watch it when you could be bothered to offer any reason why we should ?
Seems to me you did not think about this at all.
Dhorvath, OM:
February 11th, 2013 at 10:03 am
Joey,
This sentence makes very little sense to me. Do you mean to suggest that all of these factors can be considered and balanced against to produce some semblance of a complete consideration before a decision is made? Or do you mean that it can be free despite not considering all influencing factors?
I cry bullshit on the first option, no one is that aware of all of the facets of their situation. And the second seems contradictory to me, so long as there are social, cultural, or biological influences that are not considered saying that a decision was freely made is a stretch that makes me cringe.
Still, I am pleased for you and your family that the decisions you have collectively made feel like the best ones. I wish that more families could feel that way. However, I don’t think that people claiming they are above or have transcended the difficulties involved in making decisions is going to help that come about in any fashion.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls:
February 11th, 2013 at 10:07 am
Do read my post. Only PZ can do what you claim to be doing. Now, what was your real reason for posting? Trolling? Stirring shit? Ignorance of protocol?
Matt Penfold:
February 11th, 2013 at 10:19 am
Richard Dawkins just tweeted:
Jon Trollstein:
February 11th, 2013 at 10:24 am
I
theophontes (坏蛋):
February 11th, 2013 at 10:33 am
@ Matt
We can only wish that this last was true.
:(
ChasCPeterson:
February 11th, 2013 at 10:37 am
I think that judge looks JUST LIKE PZ MEYERS hes FAT. And h’es a poopyhead with denying that grls right to free thouhghts he cesnored her JUST LIKE MEYRS.
cicely (Nothing to see here; move along now!):
February 11th, 2013 at 10:48 am
athyco: Damn, that sucks. Definitely grrrrrrrrrrrrr,
:(
-
I doubt that vomitting on it would do it any good, either.
-
This? Well, I can make a hat; I can make a broach; I can make a pterodactyl!
-
mythbri:
February 11th, 2013 at 10:51 am
Okay, I’m trying to respond to lee coye’s “gendered slurs are not sexist” argument on the “I am asked a question about commenting” thread, and they’re not showing up.
I’ve used the n-word as an example of why insults based on immutable characteristics are more harmful and prejudicial and cause splash damage, and I’m wondering if there’s an auto-mod filter specifically for that word.
It strikes me as odd if that were to be the case.
Ogvorbis:
February 11th, 2013 at 10:54 am
mythbri:
Try turning on and then off italics in the middle of the word, between two letters. That may work?
Matt Penfold:
February 11th, 2013 at 10:57 am
Why ? And why should we watch a video you could offer a reason to watch ?
And that is what you did, and does not explain why you did it.
Now why not answer the question you were asked ?
erikschepers:
February 11th, 2013 at 11:06 am
I don’t know if it has already been posted, or that this is even the right place for this, but still, it’s quite interesting nonetheless:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/02/11/mens_rights_site_blacklist/
myeck waters:
February 11th, 2013 at 11:07 am
AHAHAHAHA.
AHAHAHAHAHA.
Oh yeah, no seething resentment there.
Matt Penfold:
February 11th, 2013 at 11:08 am
Oh, and surely I do not need to add that saying you were wanting to know what people made of the video sounds rather like a justification you came up with afterwards, otherwise you would have asked what people thought in the first place.
You do yourself no favours being quite so transparently dishonest (or incompetent).
LykeX:
February 11th, 2013 at 11:09 am
Shirley you can’t be serious?
Dhorvath, OM:
February 11th, 2013 at 11:23 am
theophontes,
Abuse =/= sex.
athyco:
February 11th, 2013 at 11:23 am
So why are you still blathering on about it? It doesn’t matter if we “believe” you, right?
I’m getting damn tired of hearing about your wife and never from your wife. No, I’m not intimating that she needs to trot out here to perform a convincing act; I’ll state outright that I’m tired of you blathering. Finally, I’m tired of your oblique sniping. First, you ignored argument to focus on a pronoun everyone knows can be singular or plural to jump to the idea that you “forced” a choice on your wife. Then– see what you put in quotation marks in your latest about my comments to you? “Foolish.” I never fucking said that either. You pulled them both out on your own, thank you very much. It was in your own brain, so if you’re honest, you’ll shut up about what “you and the others may not believe” and deal with what you yourself believe.
Festering crap, if you can’t see that expected societal memes made you jump to the “forced” and “foolish” conclusions while ignoring that similar expectations are as hard at work in your other choices, you’re a lost cause.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 11th, 2013 at 11:25 am
Young girl dancing to the Bad Brains.
Damn! That is one of the most adorable things I have seen in a while.
cicely (Nothing to see here; move along now!):
February 11th, 2013 at 11:27 am
Don’t call me Shirley!
&nsbp;
(That’s my sister-in-law. She’s a fundagelical.
I am so totally not Shirley.)
-
greggauthier:
February 11th, 2013 at 11:31 am
@PZ – I’m not sure why I feel so compelled, but I have to say this:
I just saw the conference discussion about “the nature of trolling” you had on Feb.2 with Pooka, C0nc0rdance, et. al.
Let me preface the meat of my comment first, by admitting I am no friend of FTB. The specific reasons are unimportant. Suffice it to say, I am diametrically opposed to the political attitudes here. As such, I am not typically inclined to run to anyone’s defense here. However, after having watched the vast majority of the video (I’m up to the first 55 minutes), I can’t help but find myself agreeing with almost everything you had to say in your own defense in that discussion.
What’s more, I actually think you were trolled hard.
Why do I think this? Well, in the past, I moderated a fairly large message board for several years, that dealt with personal and ethical topics that provoked incredibly powerful emotional and psychological defenses in people who came there. As you would expect, we were knee-deep in trolls. A handful of whom were actually CRIMINALLY destructive. Still, whenever we had to ban someone, twenty people would pop up demanding to know why we were so “capricious” and “tyrannical”.
I realize this is going to raise a few hackles, but from where I was sitting, this is EXACTLY what that discussion looked like to me. It was a “concern troll” ambush.
The discussion was not honest at all. Because if it was, instead of calling it a discussion about “the nature and effect of trolling on the internet”, they would have called it, “We’re really annoyed at you about this ban-hammer thing, PZ! So, you need to explain yourself.”
Lastly, I have to admit as well that I feel a significant amount of frustration and disgust at how (to put it in C0nc0rdance’s terms) “inward looking” the _whole_ of the internet atheist community has become.
The world is on the verge of another dark age. Christian fundamentalism is surging not just in the US, but in Europe as well. Muslim fundamentalism is sprouting everywhere (in no small part, a result of US and European foreign policy), a powerful anti-reason and anti-science constituency has been eroding civil society for decades, and nothing seems to be getting in its way. The slow march back into ignorance and fear appears to be relentless and unstoppable.
And yet, here we all are, the ones holding the candles. The ones bearing responsibility for the weak flame of human growth, human potential, and human progress, and what are we spending our time on? What are we pouring our considerable intellectual energy and resources into?
Making videos yelling at PZ Meyers because he blocks people.
Seriously?
Matt Penfold:
February 11th, 2013 at 11:38 am
Nice of you to inform us upfront you are opposed to all form of social justice. It makes you an arsehole of course, but at least it is honest.
mythbri:
February 11th, 2013 at 11:52 am
So…you are conservative, racist, anti-feminist, anti-secularist, pro-religion, pro-accommadationism and anti-marriage equality? Those are all diametrically opposed to political stances that I’ve seen PZ take here at Pharyngula.
Are you sure you want to make such a blanket statement here?
Matt Penfold:
February 11th, 2013 at 11:56 am
I see no reason to disbelieve him. Absent any evidence to the contrary, I will accept he is racist, sexist, god-bothering, anti-poor, homophobic and all the rest.
But like you, I am puzzled as to why he would want to say he is those thing.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 11th, 2013 at 12:25 pm
Do I have to watch Arrow?
The long awaited meeting of Captain Jack Harkness and River Song.
There must be a reason why the Doctor has not let them meet.
glodson:
February 11th, 2013 at 12:32 pm
Hmmmm…..
I believe many of us are pouring our efforts into fighting racism, sexism, homophobia, religious fundamentalism. You know, those political attitudes you are opposed to. I am thinking you meant something else by this statement, but this is how it reads.
Beatrice:
February 11th, 2013 at 12:36 pm
*checks how much time until more Doctor Who*
47 days.
48/49 since I’ll have to wait for the torrent.
That’s not that bad.
myeck waters:
February 11th, 2013 at 12:51 pm
The torrent? River Song’s gonna be in it?
Oh-h-h-h-h-h-h-h…
SallyStrange: Elite Femi-Fascist Genius:
February 11th, 2013 at 1:08 pm
You know, I think your observation about the content of that video was spot on. I’m just curious how it is that you think that you’re diametrically opposed to the political views here when you say you’re in favor of advancing human growth, human potential, and human progress. After all, the main difference between traditional gnu atheists (I guess that’s a thing now) and atheists in the A+ vein is that the latter recognize that “human” includes people of color, women, non-gender-binary folks, disabled people, lesbian, gay, and bisexual people, and so on. And they take action to ensure that their efforts to spread the light of rationality and critical thinking reach all humans, not just the minority of relatively privileged mostly white, mostly male people who have formed the bulk of the movement in the past.
rowanvt:
February 11th, 2013 at 1:21 pm
Bahahahaha… Lee thinks that vets and vet techs make lots of money. heeheehee…
rowanvt:
February 11th, 2013 at 1:24 pm
Oh whoops. Missed his high-end executive part. *feels silly*
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 11th, 2013 at 4:39 pm
Gee, Greg, why are you moaning about this here? We’re deeply committed to social justice here (most of us) and we’re one of the only places holding up a candle to all those who wish to stomp all over women because, hey, that’s the nature of things! Why don’t you click off and tell all those making pointless, whinging videos to find something better to do with their time? Why don’t you click off to the slymepit and the ‘skeptic’ network put in place solely to rag on FTB and give them your awe inspiring message? Let them know that 2 years spent on concentrated harassment campaigns is just, well, silly.
Thanks for doing that. Because you are going to do that, right?
Greg Gauthier:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:03 pm
For those who asked (and in spite of the intense hostility and defensiveness packed up along with the question), I will answer your question earnestly. I am none of the labels cast at me.
I am “anti-political” in the way that Christopher Hitchens was “anti-theist” (I am anti-theist as well, but that is beside the point).
At it’s root, the state is not simply the aggressive use of force applied to impose personal preferences. It is the moral claim that said aggression is not only necessary, but __GOOD__ (both of which, are insanely contradictory).
No one has ever been able to justify the statist position to me sufficiently. 47 million little slips of paper with my name scribbled on them, do not suddenly give me magical power to turn murder, theft, kidnapping, and extortion into Goods. Therefore, I remain not only a non-believer in the state, but a human being appalled by the moral horror of the state, as well.
Having read many posts on Free Thought Blogs over the years, I have not found anyone on this site who shares this conclusion with me. It is one of the reasons I have been nothing but a casual reader of it, for those same years. And, it is why I say I am diametrically opposed to the political attitudes here.
I do believe in being honest. And the honest truth is, no matter how much I may hate ignorance, bigotry, poverty, sickness, and cruelty, I cannot countenance adding organized violence to that list, no matter how it is packaged and sold (monarchy, minarchy, communism, socialism, democracy, whatever) and I realize that pointing the guns of the state at people, threatening them with the false choice of compliance or suffering (just like religion does), is not going to solve any of these social problems.
In fact, it is a social problem.
Thanks for taking the time to read this.
I’ll leave y’all alone now.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:05 pm
Uh huh. And without doing one godsdamned thing about those who are busy trying to silence every woman and feminist (man or woman) in the atheoskeptisphere. Thanks a bunch, Greg!
Greg Gauthier:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:09 pm
Correction:
Intense hostility and defensiveness of *some* of the questioners, not all.
Pteryxx:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:10 pm
for when commenter thisislame gets here:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=why+is+cunt+a+sexist+insult
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=is+lame+ableist
Short version, saying ‘it’s not always sexist’ or ‘it’s not all that ablist’ aren’t valid excuses. You might get away with them in other spaces than this without being called out, but that doesn’t validate the excuses.
Jadehawk:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:10 pm
that multiple definitions exist is not a defense, especially when the two most common ones are “crippled” and “pathetic”; in fact, it’s the connection between those two meanings that makes the word ableist.
also, not “everyone” is accusing you of defending the use of the word. I haven’t. I’ve merely pointed out that after seeing the pattern repeat, people don’t have much “benefit of the doubt” left, hence the jumpy responses to you
glodson:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:13 pm
That was hostile? You got a few confused, if snarky, responses.
I guess it is easy to be “anti-political” when you are part of the privileged class.
Part of what we are talking about is changing the culture, the climate of our culture so that equality is a given… not about forcing people to be different, but helping people to see our own biases and prejudices. To address them. To make spaces where women can be free of harassment.
It is a social problem, as you say. And we’re talking about it.
mouthyb, Vagina McTits:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:14 pm
Crossposted from the thread on banning Plum:
thisislame: Let’s start with your user name, which is obviously the beginning of picking a fight both because of the site policy about using the word ‘lame’, and because your choice of user name indicates that, despite asking questions, you just want us to know you think the whole thing is stupid.
Your comment #953:
“Hmmmm, to me it (my comment: referring to the word cunt, as stated first in your comment @ #947) is no different then calling someone a ‘dick’ or ‘dickhead’. Calling someone a ‘pussy’, on the other hand, does seem sexist since you are equating being a wimp or scared with a female part.”
Response:
Why the arbitrary line between cunt and pussy? Both refer to what you stated (among other things): these terms are an unfavorable comparison between genitalia being used a slur and comparison to being female, in order to shame. And yet, suddenly, there’s an arbitrary distinction within the same class of insults. There are two likely causes. First, that you are under the impression that the basis of using the word ‘cunt’ is not that same comparison to female genitalia and weakness/unworthiness/disgust. This is highly unlikely, since you know to make the analysis on other terms in the same category.
The second most likely reason for doing so is that you’re stirring shit to make yourself feel justified in some preconception or later course of action (likely insults and a flounce you won’t stick). Because your user name functions in roughly the same fashion, this is the more likely possibility.
Moreover, the presumption for this comment is the relative harmlessness of the term ‘cunt’, or the presumption that comparing someone to stereotypically female genitalia is defensible. This sort of set up is used three different ways by trolls here: first, to state that using the term is okay because the troll likes it or his (9.99 times out of 10) friends like using it. Second, it’s sometimes used in London, therefore no other use of it is really a problem. Third, that there needs to be an insult for some sort of offensive behavior and the term cunt is handy.
Your comment #956:
“Wow, such a simple question arises such hostility… I figured I could save some time and have one of the enlightened folks here tell me. I’m just lazy is what it comes down to.”
Response:
After IDing pussy as an offensive term, any responses to the disingenuousness of the previous post are treated as overreactions to a “simple question,” with the clear implication that there should be no problem with asking a disingenuous question after clear indicating that the response is disingenuous through both framing and user name. The attempt here to frame any responses which do not ignore the disingenuousness of your name and previous comments as unreasonable and the sarcastic use of “enlightened” to describe your responders makes it clear that any meaningful analysis of your request (eg any analysis which acknowledges your attempt thus far to defend the use of the term and your framing of objection as unreasonable) will automatically be ‘unreasonable’, setting up the use of ‘women are too emotional/the subject is not rationally defensible’ as a latter attempt to muster support for your use of the word cunt.
The tl;dr version: Look here, you disingenuous asshole, I see whut you’re trying to do there. And, I’d imagine, so does everyone else.
Come back when you know what you’re doing.
mythbri:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:22 pm
@Greg Gauthier
So you’re anti-political. And does that mean that you’re “diametrically opposed” to every single political stance that PZ has taken in his posts here at Pharyngula? Or does it mean that you’re diametrically opposed to taking ANY kind of political stance, for the mere and simple fact that it is political in nature?
Are you an anarchist? I’m having trouble understanding what you mean by your post at #259.
I’m confused as to how you expect to effect any kind of meaningful change while disavowing politics entirely.
As glodson said, it seems to me to indicate a position of relative privilege. I wish I had the option of sitting out on political discussions, my rights as a human being safe and sound. And then, of course, there are all those pesky rights of other people that I feel obligated to fight for and protect, too. My stupid ethics keep getting in the way of my dream of political isolationism.
Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:22 pm
Since I’m starting to suffer bigot troll fatigue, i didn’t read past this ridiculousness. Is he actually telling us he’s a multifaceted bigot, or was there some “deep” meaning behind this?
mouthyb, Vagina McTits:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:23 pm
Also, thisislame, this is abusive?
My, how delicate you are. Or is it just that you expect to be agreed with when you talk?
mouthyb, Vagina McTits:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:25 pm
Illuminata: Since he’s not our “friend”, we’re supposed to be extra nice to him, of course.
Diversity of (the majority) opinion or some such facile bullshit.
Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:31 pm
LOL ooh, of course. I suppose that’s why he ran for cover only two posts later? People probably responded to him, which, as we’ve learned is the very definition of ‘abuse’ to these delicate, fragile boys.
thisislame:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:33 pm
Alright. I have been kicked to this thread for asking why ‘cunt’ is de facto sexist. Never thought of it as a sexist term, though my mind can be changed…
I essentially look at it as the female version of calling someone a ‘dick’
Oh yeah, please don’t answer by telling me to read a book or some old threads. I don’y have the time or patience. I am lazy in my acquisition of knowledge… I want it fed to me please.
myeck waters:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:35 pm
Oh, in that case you can Fuck Off, thisislame.
thisislame:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:35 pm
mouthyb how are posting to me here before I even arrived? What kind of witchcraft do you practice?
thisislame:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:37 pm
Oh, it is definitely more abusive here… they don’t call it thunderdome for nothin huh?
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:37 pm
Explain why you are such a fragile peach we can’t expect you to read the previous two Thunderdome threads where this was discussed ad nauseum like the rest of us have? Get some perspective.
mouthyb, Vagina McTits:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:37 pm
thisislame–
Error #400: Bad request
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:38 pm
Ah. In that case, have a nice walk on out of here, preferably off a tall cliff. Ta.
thisislame:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:39 pm
sorry all…just noticed responses above… took me a while to get here…
Jadehawk:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:39 pm
which is also “sexist” in the sense of being gender based, although it does not cause the same cultural damage because it doesn’t reinforce power structures and stereotypes.
and you think you should be indulged, despite showing signs of not actually reading people’s responses because…?
you’re behaving in a very entitled manner.
Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:39 pm
so, thisislame is ignorant AND lazy and expects mommy to do his homework for him. No wonder he’s too goddamn dipshitty to understand the problem with using hate speech.
Jadehawk:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:39 pm
diagnosis: troll or complete internet n00b
mouthyb, Vagina McTits:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:41 pm
Well, thisislame, I read the request from Caine to come here and, you know, did it promptly.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:41 pm
Mythbri:
I doubt it. SC is an anarchist, and you won’t find her being blasé about feminism, human rights or animal rights, or social justice in general.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:42 pm
Jadehawk:
Troll. ‘thisislame’ is hardly new around here.
Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:43 pm
True that, Caine. She’s made me face a hard truth (for me): all the annoying vegans on my FB newsfeed are right . . .. gawddamnit. About the needless and horrendous suffering, anyways.
I should thank her next time I see her.
Jadehawk:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:44 pm
pretty sure “anti-political” just means “ok with the status quo”
cm's changeable moniker:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:46 pm
Oh my! I’d say low probability that this is true, but if it is …
*lol*
Jadehawk:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:46 pm
either that, or it means “i don’t actually now what ‘political’ means”; anarchism is anti-state and anti-hierarchy, but it cannot possibly be anti-political
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:46 pm
I wish SC was here, just in case Greg does make some claim of anarchism. SC has one helluva cluebat when it comes to what being an anarchist actually is, as opposed to the handy label some people use.
Jadehawk:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:55 pm
re-reading Greg’s post, he’s simply being libertarian, whatever he might claim. especially the deeply stupid assertion that “The State” is the sole source of “organized violence”, which is why the existence of “The State” would somehow add organized violence to the list of social ills
The Mellow Monkey:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:57 pm
When you don’t choose to fight injustice, you’re automatically siding with the oppressors. There is no such thing as being anti-political. Only complacent.
thisislame:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:57 pm
Let’s begin with mouthy…
- did not read site policy… if lame is frowned upon my apologies I will gladly change it.
- yes you are actually correct in saying i look at the two terms completely differently. I always thought cunt meant you’re being an ass.. similar to what dick meant to me as a slur. Pussy means you are being a wimp or sissy. I have never seen them used otherwise, so if they have diff meanings elsewhere please forgive my ignorance.
- yes i was being sarcastic in my use of enlightened … am i not allowed a bit of fun?
I do understand you get a fair number of trolls visiting here, though my question was in no way to set something up to later defend the use of the word. I was hoping to get a quick answer and be done with it…
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:59 pm
Jadehawk:
That was my first thought, too. It was strengthened by Greg’s refusal to name his position as well. It’s so convenient, being a libertarian. You get to blame everything else while sitting on your ass doing nothing.
Jadehawk:
February 11th, 2013 at 5:59 pm
you did. twice now. any comment on that?
mouthyb, Vagina McTits:
February 11th, 2013 at 6:00 pm
thisislame: We had to work for our knowledge. Why shouldn’t you?
UnknownEric, meanypants extraordinaire.:
February 11th, 2013 at 6:05 pm
Damn you, Michael Ian Black! /shakes fist at sky
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 11th, 2013 at 6:13 pm
Oh, the ironing is delicious!
See here.
:D
thisislame:
February 11th, 2013 at 6:14 pm
trust me, this is plenty of work…
Jadehawk, I guess none of your responses seemed like good answers. I told you why i though pussy was sexist. I also don’t think dick is sexist because there doesn’t seem to be a connection between the anatomy and what it is describing when used as an insult. Same with cunt for me. Not like I like using the word or currently do so…
thisislame:
February 11th, 2013 at 6:20 pm
Mouthy, it seems to you that cunt is obviously and without question sexist. This means that yoiu probably did not have to work for this knowledge since it is almost intuitive to you… If you know of some good posts that explain what you intuitively understand please send some my way.
Jadehawk:
February 11th, 2013 at 6:38 pm
really. you think using a synecdoche for an entire sex as an insult fails to connect the two meanings?
seriously, why do you think genitalia are used as insults, if there’s nothing bad about them? does it make sense? do you think it’s possible to insult someone by using a word that has no negative connotation for the people using/hearing the word?
Jadehawk:
February 11th, 2013 at 6:39 pm
stupid assumptions will get you nowhere.
seriously, you’re going to have to do some of the work here yourself, we can’t make you think.
mythbri:
February 11th, 2013 at 6:39 pm
@thisislame #299
I’m not convinced you actually know what the word ‘cunt’ means.
Pussy = Vagina. According to your own admission, this is a sexist insult because it implies that weakness and femaleness are intrinsically linked. One cannot be female without being weak, and one cannot be weak without being feminine.
Cunt = Vagina. How is this not sexist, while pussy is?
And yeah – when someone uses an immutable part of your anatomy and sex as an insult, it feels pretty sexist. When someone uses that insult to target you, then they’re reducing you to a part of you that has historically been considered shameful, evil, “other” and wrong.
How is this NOT sexist?
thisislame:
February 11th, 2013 at 7:00 pm
mythbri, I have never experienced that term used in the way you described… Though if that is the main connotation of cunt then I would agree it is de facto sexist term. Though does context matter? Can it be used in a nonsexist way…as I always, rightly or wrongly, assumed it was (to me dick and cunt were interchangeable). Mean, but not necessarily sexist.
Also, I have already explained why i feel pussy is de facto sexist while cunt is not. It doesn’t matter if they ref the same thing. Does this mean the word vagina is de facto sexist?
Jadehawk:
February 11th, 2013 at 7:02 pm
not as an insult, it can’t. not as a “friendly” insult, either
Jadehawk:
February 11th, 2013 at 7:03 pm
if it’s used as an insult? yes
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 11th, 2013 at 7:04 pm
Yeah right, fuckwit. That we all used to freely use ‘bitch’, ‘prick’, ‘dick’ and ‘cunt’ here means we didn’t have to work for knowledge, learn things or change at all. Nope.
mythbri:
February 11th, 2013 at 7:04 pm
…..Dude.
Seriously?
I used Google, and will provide you this link out of the goodness of my heart. If you’re willing to go to the trouble of typing out comments, you should be fucking willing to type far fewer words into the Google machine.
http://www.shakesville.com/2007/11/on-bitch-and-other-misogynist-language.html
This concludes my interaction with you here.
carlie:
February 11th, 2013 at 7:11 pm
I love you, cicely. :D
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 11th, 2013 at 7:12 pm
It is almost as if these people who ask about our collective use of the word “dick” as an insult o not read this blog.
Funny how that works.
thisislame:
February 11th, 2013 at 7:41 pm
Jadehawk, if it’s only de facto sexist when used as an insult then it’s not really de facto sexist; it’s just sexist sometimes. My question is is cunt like that, only sexist in context, or is it always intrinsically sexist.
And thanks to mythbri that actually was a very interesting and useful link. Answered a bunch of my questions. If we cannot interact here anymore than wherelse?
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:01 pm
Fuckety fuck fuck! Now we have no water.
Have a Balloon:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:08 pm
Hi Caine,
Just wanted to say sorry about overdoing the Poe on the other thread. I was going to post here to see if I should stop but then I saw lee coye’s comment and figured that it was both hilarious and definitely not something to encourage ever again.
*sigh* and I tried so hard to make it sound utterly ridiculous :(
I hope your water comes back on soon.
consciousness razor:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:08 pm
No word has an intrinsic meaning, so your question is pointless.
Tony the Dancing Telegram Queer Shoop:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:13 pm
Jon Trollstein:
You gave no context to the video.
Why should we want to watch it?
Is it funny?
Is it stupid?
Is it exciting?
Is it scary?
You tell us nothing about *why* we should watch it, yet you apparently think it is a good idea to throw it in. As if you expect that we’re going to sit through it?
Wow.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:14 pm
Have A Balloon, no worries!
Thanks. I’m not holding out hope. Last time our water went, it was on and off for almost two damn months. (Town water main, *teeny tiny* town). Supposedly, someone is working on it, but I’ll be surprised if I can take a shower in the morning.
Tigger_the_Wing:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:14 pm
OOooh! I’d love a lavender-coloured pterodactyl-shaped hat with a matching brooch for my lavender-coloured wrap. =^_^=
*Finds crochet hook and searches yarn stash*
cicely (Monday---now with even moar Suck and FAIL!):
February 11th, 2013 at 8:15 pm
carlie: :D
-
Caine: Do you have well water, or piped in? If well water, maybe your recent Fun With Powerloss hass messed up the pump in some way?
-
Have a Balloon:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:16 pm
Apologies should probably also go to mandrellian and Sophia, Michelin-starred General of the First Mediterranean Iron Chef Batallion, since they put energy into two brilliant anti-troll answers that ended up slightly mis-directed, and, er, to Pterryx for “Ms. Pterryx” and Caine for “Sir”.
Having said that, mocking these people by parody is strangely addictive…
Tigger_the_Wing:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:16 pm
Oh Caine, that’s not at all nice! Is this something to do with the power outages? Town water pump not working properly (airlocked?)?
cicely (Monday---now with even moar Suck and FAIL!):
February 11th, 2013 at 8:16 pm
Ooooor, possibly the town’s water main has a malfunctioning pump?
-
Lofty:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:24 pm
Mr Pump Has Been Called Away For Other Urgent Tasks.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:27 pm
Cicely, town water, piped in. We heard noise about possible ice crystals, yada, yada, yada. The town water main burst about two years ago, and it wasn’t ever properly fixed, so I’m not expecting miracles here, especially as our mayor is in Michigan at the moment.
myeck waters:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:27 pm
Pump #19?
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:29 pm
Lofty:
Ha! My town for a Vetinari. Or a Mr. Pump.
mouthyb, Vagina McTits:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:30 pm
Instinctual? TROLOLOLOLOL
thisislame:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:30 pm
Seriously consciousness?!?
Ok, let’s try this again. Saying a word is de facto (intrinsically) sexist means it is sexist even divorced of any context. Can you wrap your intrinsically tiny mind around that?
Tony the Dancing Telegram Queer Shoop:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:30 pm
thisislame:
You have got to be kidding me.
You want other people to do your homework for you?
There are some commenters who might do so…when asked.
But to make demands? Wow. You have guts.
thisislame:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:35 pm
Guts? Why is that? What am I risking by asking?
Someone saying no and then calling me a bad name?
Plus I said please :)
omnicrom:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:36 pm
Well it took no time at all before you dropped the charade of the naive genuinely curious innocent to full on insult-flinging, sense-denying, trolling. I’m glad you came out though, it’s always a pain when someone who’s JAQing off keeps up the masquerade of just being genuinely curious about incredibly obvious shit! Honest!
Honestly I’ve never quite figured out the appeal of this kind of trolling, why would you come in under a guise of merely being curious? Does a troll who is “Just Asking Questions” seriously think they’ll somehow get all those mean bitches who are angry about gendered, sexist insults to spontaneously do a 180 if you just get them to Socratically think through their stupid positions about how splash damage is bad?
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:37 pm
Tony:
*snorts* No they don’t. It hardly takes guts to be an asshole of a troll.
omnicrom:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:39 pm
Oh! He said please and used a smiley face! He must be for real guys and gals :)
No, fuck you thisislame. If you are just seriously naive (and you aren’t) then we STILL would not owe you a fucking thing. Your question has been answered several times and you’re still going on about how someone needs to feed you knowledge? That’s simultaneously impolite and idiotic. But then again since you’re trolling I’d say impolite and idiotic is about the sum of it.
Tony the Dancing Telegram Queer Shoop:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:43 pm
thisislame:
Where I come from when someone calls another person an “ass”, it’s because they’re “being an ass”. Not sure why the need to substitute a woman’s body part, unless you’re specifically looking to insult someone using a female body part.
thisislame:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:44 pm
funny how i get insulted at each post but when i make one insulting comment (deserved or not) the troll sirens star ringing. this is thunder dome isn’t it? still noone has answered my question which i am still curious about.
mouthyb, Vagina McTits:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:45 pm
thisislame: Words get their meaning (as in become more than noise) with context. Period. There is NO such thing as a word without context.
Tony the Dancing Telegram Queer Shoop:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:45 pm
thisislame:
You waltzed in here setting the terms by which we are supposed to address you. That’s arrogant and gutsy, IMO.
mouthyb, Vagina McTits:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:46 pm
Also, thisislame, we’ve answered you again and again. READ MOR.
omnicrom:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:46 pm
thisislame try again.
Posts 262 through 265 all explained to you why gendered language is bad. You were called a troll because you are acting like a troll. You were being insulted because you are acting like a troll and because you keep asking for people to answer your questions which have already been answered.
consciousness razor:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:47 pm
Yep. BTW, you forgot the “razor” part.
People don’t use those words the same way at all, just like they wouldn’t say “practically speaking, for all intents and purposes…” is the same thing as “no matter what, this is fundamental to the thing itself.”
There are no uses of a word “divorced of any context,” as if their essences float about in the ether with their “intrinsic meanings.” Using a word means that there’s a context, so what’s the kind of context you want to know about in your question?
I did, and I responded directly to your loaded question by saying what was wrong with it. Asking the question you did presupposes a whole fucking lot of things (setting aside issues with sexism itself) which you have no reason to do: it only helps to confuse things rather than clarify them. That was my ‘polite’ way of saying it, despite being in the Thunderdome. Can you wrap your mind around that?
mandrellian:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:47 pm
consciousness razor @ 313:
Yes. Meanings of words are what humans decide they are; they are neither intrinsic nor absolute. “Cunt”, right now, is universally recognised in the Anglophone world as an insult when applied to a person. The fact that it refers to a vagina is reducing the target of the insult to a part of a woman historically demonised, and to which women are routinely reduced themselves.
It’s a short form of saying “You are that part of a woman’s body to which women themselves are routinely reduced; you are therefore worth less than a woman and you are therefore worth less than me.” That is dehumanising, “othering” and sexist.
When using the word to describe the vagina, you’re essentially insulting a vagina, denigrating it and disembodying it from the human it is part of. It’s not a universal insult like “arsehole”, it’s specifically gendered and reductive. That is partially why it’s deemed offensive (I’m sure there’s stuff I’ve overlooked or am completely ignorant of).
Obviously, not everyone takes the same level offence to that or any other word, and I know in many social contexts (e.g. your group of familiars) it might be acceptable to drop the c-bomb and other bigoted insults (and Squid knows I have thoughtlessly done myself – a bad habit I must kick, especially considering Ms Junior Mandrellian is approaching the Age Of Repeat Everything Daddy Says). However it’s obviously best avoided in unfamiliar social contexts because even if you personally think it’s fine (which you shouldn’t, but anyway), most other people don’t. Being a social animal is all about compromise and avoiding saying “cunt” in public – or at all (not to mention making an effort to understand why it’s offensive) – is a small price to pay for ease of coexistence.
Tony the Dancing Telegram Queer Shoop:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:47 pm
and thisislame is a whiner too?
::Gosh, who would have thought the demanding ass would complain about being called mean names?::
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:49 pm
Especially considering some trolls leave malware links pretending to be video links? Where it its BRAINZZZ????
Tony the Dancing Telegram Queer Shoop:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:54 pm
Have A Balloon:
When I read one of your wonderful comments in that thread, it was at the end of 16 hour day and as tired as I was (and I also have little experience with Poe’s to be honest), my initial thought was “WTF, have we lost another one?” I did a double take, having recalled reading posts by you in the past that were quite enjoyable. I opted not to respond, because I thought maybe in my exhaustion I had misinterpreted the comment. I’m glad I did.
UnknownEric, meanypants extraordinaire.:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:54 pm
But don’t we realize that, as the laughing stock of the Interwebs, it’s our job… nay… our DUTY to explain every little nuance of basic human decency to shitheads who won’t even bother to listen?
/sarcasm
thisislame:
February 11th, 2013 at 8:55 pm
mandrellian, beautiful answer that makes a load of sense. What i was looking for! Shit, if I got this answer to begin with i would’ve left you fuckers alone. wasn’t meaning to troll but when you immediately (after the very first fucking post) get treating as one it’s hard not to. I kept my cool as long as possible. apologies to whomever it was I decided to direct my insult against.
This was definitely a fun first experience commenting here. build you a backbone or lose it entirely.
mouthyb, Vagina McTits:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:00 pm
thisislame: WE. EXPLAINED. IT. REPEATEDLY. TO. YOU.
But hey, it had to be in juuuuuust the right words, didn’t it? And hey, the word Mandrellian could be masculine, couldn’t it?
What you need to comment here is the ability and desire to educate yourself. What you did is pick a fight with a series of people while fapping furiously to the idea that you were being picked on.
Jesus fucking Christ, you lying little shit.
UnknownEric, meanypants extraordinaire.:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:00 pm
Or perhaps you should try to… oh jeez, I dunno… not come off like a huge douchecanoe next time?
My, I’m punchy today.
UnknownEric, meanypants extraordinaire.:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:02 pm
BTW, my post was aimed at thisisponderous, which I shoulda made clearer.
Jadehawk:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:02 pm
O.o
I *heart* cities, even if they are full of people. Because that’s just not awesome at all.
Tigger_the_Wing:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:02 pm
Dammit! I want to watch “It’s a hat, a brooch, a pterodactyl!” but I still can’t get flashplayer to work on my new laptop.
HEEEEEEeeeeeeellllllllpppppppp!!!!!!!
mandrellian:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:03 pm
“You fuckers”, thisislame? C’mon, really.
The Horde have itchy trigger fingers, especially lately as there’s been a rash of unapologetic sexist trolls acting all obtuse and “just asking questions” (aka “JAQing off”). Unfortunately you and your question sorta resembled one of those instances. Cut the beserkers some slack (I in fact beserked on someone on another thread just today and they were only Poe’ing, damn them to Hades).
But hey, as long as you got the idea that calling people cunts isn’t fucking nice. And if you really did have fun, we all get to award ourselves cookies!
Tony the Dancing Telegram Queer Shoop:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:03 pm
thisislame:
why are you so fucking stuck on this idea that people have to be so nice to you, when you so arrogantly stormed in here demanding to be spoodfed information? You can be a rude ass, but it’s not ok if we respond to you in the same manner?
mandrellian:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:05 pm
Balloony:
All is forgiven … and well played.
(I hope you appreciate that I tried to match your epic pom-Poe-sity in my beserk-response :))
Have a Balloon:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:06 pm
Tony
Yes, I was trying to drop lots of hints that it was parody, like “Meyers” and “I’m being respectful and polite” and “I am threatening to leave forever unless you listen to me because I’m so disappointed in you!” but Poe’s law still held. I felt quite bad when some of the regulars took it seriously because it would be really upsetting stuff to read if you didn’t know it was a joke. Then LEE COYE took it seriously which, while hilarious, was also a double take because I literally accused you all of being literally exactly the same as the Nazis and claimed that I was a lumberjack and…yeah, time to stop…
Tigger_the_Wing:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:07 pm
Oh, and thisisableist? If you have genuinely got it now (even though you only deigned to notice one of many comments attempting to educate you) PLEASE CHANGE YOUR FUCKING ‘NYM!!!
*Grumble*
mandrellian:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:08 pm
Have a Balloon:
As soon as I saw that Lee Coye had fallen as hard for your Poe as I had, all my embarrassment evaporated :)
It’s one thing to go all Don Quixote on someone pretending very convincingly to be an ass; another entirely to appreciate their apparent support :D
thisislame:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:09 pm
Thanks Mandrellian, I did have fun and wasn’t meaning to jaq off. I was not ready for the immediate hostility and became very defensive… I try to ignore the insults which are still coming apparently. Maybe they aren’t happy with the fact that their snotty answers weren’t good enough for me/didn’t convince me?
And ‘you fuckers’ was meant in jest… though I know that is difficult to come across in text.
3 cookies to you!
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:10 pm
Jadehawk:
Yeah, there’s a lot to be said for cities, in spite of all the peoples.
Spiral1123:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:14 pm
no problem with doing that… I was expressing my frustration with choosing one since I could only use lowercase letter or numbers.
let’s see if it worked…
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:15 pm
That is the problem. Each of those things have been said repeatedly by trolls. And you are a newbie. It is easy for people who are not familiar to mistake you for a troll because trolls say toss things regularly.
Buy, hey, you can always claim lee coye as an ally. Perhaps you can share cake.
mandrellian:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:19 pm
thisis[questionable taste in monikers]
Nothing really comes across well in text unless you take pains to make it as clear as possible what you mean. Remember that if you come back – and if you do, do change that username. “Lame” might seem like a pretty mild insult but it’s still ableist.
consciousness razor:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:20 pm
That’s exactly when Smoggy Batzrubble would’ve started chronicling his latest sexual exploits in lurid detail. Well, pretty much all of involved sexual exploits from beginning to end, with some theocratic delusions sprinkled about, but you know what I mean.
*sigh*
I miss old Smoggy.
mandrellian:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:21 pm
Well, it appears my comment at 360 should be addressed to “Spiral1123″.
Jolly good, tally ho and such-like.
Spiral1123:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:22 pm
i am unable to change the username but can change my nickname so at least it will display differently.
mythbri:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:22 pm
Any cake that would have lee coye as a member…
Wait, I don’t think I’m doing this right.
Any cake that would willingly eat lee coye…
No.
Any coye that would have cake as a member…
Crap.
UnknownEric, meanypants extraordinaire.:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:23 pm
The cake is a lie.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:25 pm
How about any cake that would choke lee coye…
Pteryxx:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:27 pm
Have a Balloon: Oh, I realized you were still Poe-ing and that was beautifully played, well done. That said I really don’t want to be assigned a gender even in jest, because gender assignments are incredibly freakin’ sticky – witness Nerd and Louis getting it wrong in the very same thread. Most regulars latch onto pronoun assignments without even realizing they’re doing it, like everyone. So yeah, no hard feelings, but *public service announcement* let’s not play at assigning binary genders to nonbinary folks. /PSA
Pteryxx:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:29 pm
oh, and Spiral, thanks for changing your display name.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:30 pm
Yes, it’s worth emphasising that we have a fair number of people here who prefer to remain gender neutral, and unless it’s obvious or stated what someone’s preference happens to be, best to remain neutral. ( Now Zapp’s in my brain again…)
Spiral1123:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:30 pm
Ha, that was the easiest thing I’ve done all night ;)
Tony the Dancing Telegram Queer Shoop:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:31 pm
Janine: why would you waste perfectly good cake ?
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:34 pm
Who said it had to be a good cake?
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:37 pm
Janine:
Could be a pisscake.
mandrellian:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:46 pm
Urinal cake?
And why the fuck do they call those things cake? WHY? Bastards.
Have a Balloon:
February 11th, 2013 at 9:46 pm
Yes, I assumed that even lee coye/patrickdoyle would have taken one look at my comments and thought, oh, ha ha, very funny, taking the piss, pretending to be an absolute douche. Rather than “hey! I agree!” I think maybe I should have done what consciousness razor suggested, just to make it REALLY obvious.
I’ve posted here a couple of times before, I didn’t want to jump straight in as a poe because that would have not ended well, but I stayed mostly in the Lounge because I was so scared of being jumped on! :)
But then everyone was friendly :o
…even lee coye :s
So yes, I guess for a lot of people they would not have recognised my name. Fortunately my time just reading the blog (for OVER 70 YEARS) meant I could avoid the apparently common trap of freaking out in response to the “you went a bit far” with “OMG HOW DARE YOU THOUGHT POLICE I’M ON YOUR SIDE”. Partly also because in the persona of Mr Michael Mansname nobody would have noticed the difference.
consciousness razor:
February 11th, 2013 at 10:06 pm
That rhymes with “consommé,” right?
chigau (違う):
February 11th, 2013 at 10:06 pm
Have a Balloon
I thought your comments were hilarious.
—
thisislame/Spiral1123
You are very boring.
and I haven’t even looked at the thread that spawned you
Have a Balloon:
February 11th, 2013 at 10:17 pm
consciousness razor
Yes, yes it does!
chigau
Thanks :)
Spiral1123 turned up on the Noelplum thread, I think after I threw in the standard “but we don’t use cunt as a gendered slur in England!”
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 11th, 2013 at 10:27 pm
Esteleth, you are so right. Guyland is profoundly depressing.
X-posted
DLC:
February 11th, 2013 at 10:41 pm
Downer of the week: North Korea has apparently detonated a nuclear weapon in an underground test.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21421841
Tigger_the_Wing:
February 11th, 2013 at 11:52 pm
Thank you, Spiral1123, for changing your display name (if I can manage to do it, anyone should be capable!).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DLC: shit.
And there I was, feeling so happy with the news coming out of the Vatican*.
I suppose it’s too much to ask the Fates that they should just give us good news for a day or two?
*Interpol will be turning up on his doorstep on the First of March, yes? If not, then they’d better turn up on the Ides!
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 12th, 2013 at 12:10 am
Two Popes!
One Mitre!
You won’t believe your eyes!
Tony the Dancing Telegram Queer Shoop:
February 12th, 2013 at 12:19 am
Caine:
Douchecake?
theophontes (坏蛋):
February 12th, 2013 at 12:26 am
@ chigau
Such never lasts for long here.
DLC:
February 12th, 2013 at 12:52 am
Pope Palpatine retires, good news.
North Korea… The possibility of a nuclear arms use depends upon the least stable nation-state or group leader to own one. Depressing.
LykeX:
February 12th, 2013 at 1:14 am
But is North Korea really all that unstable? I mean, they’re ruled by the third generation of a family dynasty. It’s not like they have regular revolutions or anything. The transfer of power seems to have gone fairly smoothly. Regarding Kim Jong-un himself I have no idea what his temperament is. Does anybody know much about this?
Also, I’m not certain how dangerous they really are. Yes, they’ve got nukes and are developing their missile capabilities, but if I were in their situation, I would too. Nukes means a measure of safety. It doesn’t necessarily follow that they’re going to be aggressive.
There are certainly many problems with North Korea and its leadership, but I’m not sure if instability is one of them. I guess what I’m getting at is, are they really crazy enough to try anything?
Cerberus from Time Forgot:
February 12th, 2013 at 1:35 am
OMG you guyz, you can’t say words have nasty cultural connotations because of a cultural context where they have been regularly used as words to wound without addressing the specific context of a single person’s usage of the word.
I mean, like my nym right now. Obviously it means that I am physically paralyzed and am talking about my tragic situation instead of using this word as a shorthand for “worthless and disregardable” in a cultural context in which disabled people are not only mistreated on a regular basis, but their condition is used regularly as an unrelated slur reinforcing a cultural notion that people like them and any who can be likened to them are beneath notice and less important than able-bodied people.
Yes, thisistrolling, it turns out that even if you try to use a word in an unrelated context, indeed with almost any context, the history and cultural baggage will still come with it. And thus a comment that wants to use these loaded words has to acknowledge that greater context above and beyond the direct context of the sentence or the “intended usage” of the speaker.
Which is sort of the point of reclamation, acknowledging the existing context and trying to build new cultural contexts (and this part is important) through direct action on the part of the people most affected by the term in order to try and rob it of its cultural power to wound and thus regain a sense of agency.
You can’t reclaim those words on their behalf or disregard a word’s recent history just because you don’t want to be viewed as the sort of asshole who regularly uses words in their contexts as weapons to wound or belittle groups of people just because you, well, are.
DLC:
February 12th, 2013 at 1:40 am
North Korea is a difficult to call situation. Is Kim really an absolute ruler or does he just front a junta ? How far away from collapse are they, and what will happen if the North Koreans start feeling desperate ?
What if they try nuclear blackmail on the ROK and the ROK call their bluff? To add to that, the DPRK are notoriously difficult to negotiate with. IMO we need to start preparing to talk and keep talking until we bore them into some kind of compromise. I personally do not want another war in the Korean Peninsula. But then I don’t think anyone among the world of the rational does.
DLC:
February 12th, 2013 at 1:41 am
Janine : Two Popes Enter, one Pope leaves!
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 12th, 2013 at 2:11 am
From the previous incarnation of Thunderdome, where the gazillionth discussion of using cunt took place:
Bradley:
Caine:
From the introduction of Misogyny: The World’s Oldest Prejudice by Jack Holland:
‘Cunt’ is the pinnacle of utter contempt. It’s an expression of profound misogyny, given the thousands of years women have been held in contempt and often reduced in status to nothing more than a trash receptacle, a place for any man to dump his semen and move on. Consider what you are saying when you let loose with a “you silly cunt” aimed at one of your friends or similar. You may have the feeling that it’s okay to use the word towards men, in a friendly sense in the UK, however, that doesn’t remove the rage and contempt in it when it’s snarled at a woman, does it?
Why is it alright to call someone an objectified, despised body part? What are you really saying about that person? If the answer is “well, I don’t think about it, it’s just a word”, then you should do some thinking and reading.
Tigger_the_Wing:
February 12th, 2013 at 3:25 am
On the Friday before last Monkey, when I was haranguing the priest from my hospital bed, I suggested a list of minimum demands that the Catholic Church should meet, predicting its imminent demise if they weren’t met.
The first of my demands was the resignation of the Pope.
Step one accomplished already, in less than two months. =^_^=
Unfortunately, it isn’t likely that they’re going to follow up with my other suggestions from my rant!
Now they just have to fail to replace the Pope; retire all the current cardinals and abolish all levels of church hierarchy; hand over to the secular authorities everyone involved in the physical, mental and sexual abuse of minors and other vulnerable people, and all those who were involved in the hushing-up of the same in any capacity; re-allow people to declare themselves no longer church members and stop using the inflated figures caused by the abolition of self-excommunication to throw their weight around in the secular world; withdraw opposition to the laity using any reproductive strategies they damn well please; withdraw opposition to marriage equality; declare the absolute, non-qualified, equality of all people regardless of age, sex, gender, gender-expression, sexuality, ability, race, religious affiliation (if any) etc.; return all looted treasures to their country of origin; sell all other assets (hospitals, schools, orphanages and similar should be handed over to state control in lieu of taxes) and distribute the proceeds amongst the poorest of the poor, regardless of religion; return the church to a grass-roots movement without a clergy, where the congregations are small and meet in one anothers’ houses with the members taking turns to hold mass. No leaders, no priests. All equal, all taking turns.
The de-centralisation and resultant fracturing of the RCC could be the best thing to happen to the world since the reformation. No longer would a huge amount of power be concentrated in a single Christian denomination. No more top-down pronouncements. Catholics would have to start thinking for themselves what their faith means in a modern world. How to be Christ-like without following strict orders from an out-of-touch hierarchy (as many do already, of course). And, who knows? They may come to the same conclusion that many of us have come to: that the supernatural claims are bunk, and that it is possible to be a good person and have a beneficial impact on the world without following any religion at all.
StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!:
February 12th, 2013 at 3:53 am
@ Previous thunderdome’s # 808. Rev. BigDumbChimp – 8th of February 2013 at 6:50 am :
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/02/04/thunderdome-18/comment-page-2/#comment-556376
No, please, go on, do explain.
Are you saying there’s something wrong with coming up with new more positive terminology or something? How then do you explain why we’re now using African American nstead of the older terms?
That word “racism” you keep using. I do not think it means what you think it does. / Inigo Montoya. (& me.)
StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!:
February 12th, 2013 at 3:55 am
@737. Chris Clarke :
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/02/04/thunderdome-18/comment-page-2/#comment-556270
Thanks for that – no worries & glad you appreciated those links.
StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!:
February 12th, 2013 at 3:59 am
@781. strange gods before me ॐ :
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/02/04/thunderdome-18/comment-page-2/#comment-556334
You’ve had my answers to that already here :
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/12/15/thunderdome-12/comment-page-1/#comment-516692
& here :
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/01/26/thunderdome-16/comment-page-2/#comment-548691
& I’ve also stated here what my actual current views are, as opposed to the strawperson caricature that some who hate me have misrepresented them as being here :
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/01/20/thunderdome-15/comment-page-1/#comment-543071
SGBM : you are cherry picking ancient statements made many years ago on another blog when I was a different person and which I have long since dis-owned and rejected as opposed to the many more numerous and recent statements contradicting them as noted with, for example, the last link.
I’m pretty sure you would have said things in the past that, in hindsight and after reflection, you now wish you hadn’t said. It would therefore be wrong to hold those past statements against you because you’ve rejected those statements and grown and learnt. Same applies here to me.
SGBM you have also admitted here :
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/01/26/thunderdome-16/comment-page-2/#comment-548853
(comment #771. 29th January 2013 at 8:20 am) that you are asking those questions mainly for the purpose of seeking ammunition to use in some future argument you’ve already devised against me and are thus not sincerely seeking answers but are rather arguing in bad faith.
Strange gods before me ॐ, what you are doing here is misrepresenting me and my views, bad faith arguing, spamming and cyber-bullying and you are being unfair, intellectually dishonest and factually wrong. Please stop it.
PS. No, I am not being bullied off this blog by a few fellow commenters who happen to dislike or and disagree with me. I’ve made that quite clear here :
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/01/26/thunderdome-16/comment-page-2/#comment-548685
Those who hate me here have equally made their feelings towards me known. If they wish to ignore me in the future that’s their choice, if I wish to ignore them that’s mine. If they keep making things nasty (&/or boring) for other readers here, well that’s their choice too. I suggest they let PZ and Chris Clarke run this blog as they choose just as PZ and Chris Clarke (& I) would happily let them run their blogs as they choose.
John Morales:
February 12th, 2013 at 4:01 am
StevoR:
Because this is summer, exposure to solar UV has made me melanin enriched.
(Have I become a black person?)
Giliell, professional cynic:
February 12th, 2013 at 4:07 am
Yeah, nothing wrong about privileged people inventing pet-names for underprivileged people and sticking labels onto them whether they like it or not. Nothing racist to be seen here, move on people.
You know, after your recent whine over at the other thread, you could just demonstrate that you’re not fucking racist and say something like “Damn, yes, that was totally inappropriate. I apologize.”
But I guess you’ll double down again and whitesplain how that was totally not racist because you said so.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 12th, 2013 at 4:21 am
All you’re doing is trying to find a way to pass your racism by people. Hey, didn’t work, fuckwit! As I said earlier, in regard to your “melanin-enriched” garbage, you’re such a racist you just can’t manage to describe or talk about people as people. You just have to give in to your deep need to stereotype and pigeonhole, which screams “I’m a racist fuckstick!” all over the place.
Of course, as I said previously, perhaps I’m wrong, and you’ll start referring to yourself and other western white people (to you, the only actual humans) as melanin-deficient.
Your thoughts, your words are garbage, StevoRacist. Stinking, rancid garbage.
John Morales:
February 12th, 2013 at 4:25 am
IMNSHO, StevoR is not a troll.
(Technically)
–
I even have a bit of a soft spot for him; I have few expectations, but don’t think he’s truly hopeless.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 12th, 2013 at 4:28 am
John:
I used to share that opinion. After his recent displays and the nym change, I no longer think that. I think he’s going to troll here out of spite. *shrug*
John Morales:
February 12th, 2013 at 4:32 am
[And now, for something completely different]
In the news: Soft drink addiction leads to woman’s death
Lofty:
February 12th, 2013 at 4:41 am
Croaker Cola!
John Morales:
February 12th, 2013 at 4:44 am
<groan>
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 12th, 2013 at 4:51 am
Wow. That’s a lot of anything to be drinking every day.
Lofty:
February 12th, 2013 at 4:58 am
Yup, the victim is hardly likely to have a balanced diet, too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:01 am
Gee, I just got a stupid comment on my blog from someone out of Victoria in Australia. The things that make you go hmmm.
Lofty:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:08 am
One Thetar? You do attract some horrible people while being right on the internet..
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:14 am
Lofty:
Yes. Do you know who that is? Honestly, I’m right here, if they have something to say, say it here.
Lofty:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:28 am
Sadly no, but it could be any one of a million MRA types who thinks he’s clever to find you (yeah I know, your nym is linked to your blog) and prefers to shame you on your home turf. I suspect he’s already in the Dungeon and can’t post here..
Giliell, professional cynic:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:35 am
Caine
Wow, now you have been thoroughly chastized.
Bad girl!
Don’t do that again, and by “that” I mean “existing”.
Giliell, professional cynic:
February 12th, 2013 at 6:03 am
Ehm, I was talking about that comment on your blog…
Antiochus Epiphanes:
February 12th, 2013 at 6:48 am
*erk*
My brother-in-law will be moving in with us to avoid homelessness. My mother-in-law and her best friend already live with us for the same reason.
I crave solitude. This is going to be a bit of a clusterfuck. I’m going to be spending a lot more time in the garage.
Disclaimer: as freely as a person can choose anything, my wife and have chosen this, so this is just complaining.
myeck waters:
February 12th, 2013 at 7:27 am
The thing that bugs me the most about crap like “melanin enriched” is that, once again, it assumes White as the default condition. White is the norm – if the group of people you’re referring to are all White you can just say “people” – any and everything else requires a qualifier. The whole thing reeks of paternalism and privilege.
The Mellow Monkey:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:09 am
Yes. Aside from that being a racist assumption, it also fails on genetics and population percentage. The genes responsible for European pale skin are relatively recent additions (“whiteness” spread through Europe between 12,000 and 6,000 years ago) and they’re a pretty small minority when compared to the global population.
That’s one of the things that often annoys me about reconstructions of early modern humans, which almost always have white skin in the west. Meanwhile, the earlier human species tend to be a generic light brown with dark hair*. It ties ideas of modernity–and what we consider human itself–to skin color, despite the fact that 12,000 years ago none of our ancestors were white and all of them were physically modern humans. “White” isn’t the norm for humanity and never was. Only isolation and ethnocentrism has allowed certain populations to believe it is.
*The exception to this is the more “sympathetic” reconstructions of Neandertals in recent years. When a reconstruction is made that is supposed to emphasize their similarities to us, the fact that some of them had light coloring is suddenly very important. The reconstructions where the differences are being emphasized are usually darker.
Beatrice:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:21 am
*lightbulb*
Tony the Dancing Telegram Queer Shoop:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:47 am
*another lightbulb moment here too*
Amphiox:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:56 am
I see StevoR still just doesn’t get it.
Let’s see:
1. The assumption that some groups need “more positive” terminology, beyond the term “person”.
2. The assumption that he, lone white guy, is entitled to invent such terminology.
3. The assumption that his terminology is actually “positive”.
4. The complete ignorance of the history pertaining to why the term “African American” became preferred.
5. The refusal to accept correction when the problem is pointed out to him, assuming he used the term originally in ignorance.
No. Not racist at all!
*barf*
Esteleth, OH NO ZEBRAFISH ABORTION IN MORDOR:
February 12th, 2013 at 10:02 am
Caine:
Have you gotten to the part where Kimmel discusses the
sexrape of women on college campuses after being deliberately gotten drunk/drugged and the results of a survey he did when he showed stats on this to 40-something college grads? Specifically, the, uh, imbalance in responses of men and women?Oh, and how the #1 force pushing back against colleges putting in firm rules regarding alcohol, drugs and partying in relation to sex is alumni complaining about “banning fun”?
“Profoundly depressing” ain’t half of it.
Nepenthe:
February 12th, 2013 at 10:21 am
This. And also it’s a silly framing. I am clearly melanin deficient, not default or normal or ideal. Humans are supposed to be able to go outside for more than ten minutes at a time without searing pain and for more than sixty minutes without their skin spontaneously peeling off.
carlie:
February 12th, 2013 at 10:24 am
AE – eek indeed! Is there a nearby library with nooks and crannies you can also escape to when needed?
glodson:
February 12th, 2013 at 10:27 am
Caine:
Havelock will make any town a city in no time flat.
I know that comment was some time ago, but I have to go out of my way for Pratchett.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
February 12th, 2013 at 11:01 am
Amphiox
Eh, the story took place in Australia, and Mr Fernandez is from Malaysia, so ‘African American’ would be wildly inaccurate, being that he’s not American nor of African ancestry.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 12th, 2013 at 11:07 am
Giliell:
Yep, I am ever so toxic. That’s me. Heh.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 12th, 2013 at 11:09 am
Esteleth:
I’m just now getting to that.
Holy shit, you aren’t kidding. I think if I were a parent, I’d be hiding in a closet.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
February 12th, 2013 at 11:14 am
Ah shoot, here it is Darwin Day and I have to go run errands in town. *sulks*
cicely (Monday---now with even moar Suck and FAIL!):
February 12th, 2013 at 11:39 am
What was that about coye members????
-
Vatican Deathmatch!!!!
-
Which suggests that said alumni have fond memories of their own
partyingraping days.:(
-
Esteleth, OH NO ZEBRAFISH ABORTION IN MORDOR:
February 12th, 2013 at 12:39 pm
Cicely:
More or less, yes.
Also, (in reference to Kimmel bringing stats to 40-somethings) they are grumbly about how current college have more better rapey options and wish that they could be 19 again.
Giliell, professional cynic:
February 12th, 2013 at 1:36 pm
Whom does this remind me of?…
Esteleth, OH NO ZEBRAFISH ABORTION IN MORDOR:
February 12th, 2013 at 2:16 pm
Giliell:
I HAVE NO IDEA.
ISN’T THAT FASCINATING? HOW THAT BEARS NO SIMILARITY TO ANYONE ELSE?!
cicely (Dancing on Monday's grave.):
February 12th, 2013 at 2:37 pm
I could swear I caught just the barest whiff of sarcasm, somewhere hereabouts….
-
Esteleth, OH NO ZEBRAFISH ABORTION IN MORDOR:
February 12th, 2013 at 2:42 pm
*turns on fan*
Sorry ’bout that. Had beans for lunch.
Caine, brigade de garce:
February 12th, 2013 at 3:05 pm
Unfortunately, as depressing as it is, Guyland sure as hell makes a fucktonne of sense when it comes to slymepit behaviour though. Describes it to a T.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 12th, 2013 at 3:14 pm
Caine, how about the overlap of membership between the pit and MRA groups like AFvM?
sudoma bin usri:
February 12th, 2013 at 3:16 pm
Haven’t seen this mentioned here, worth a look:
WTF, Evolution?
Caine, brigade de garce:
February 12th, 2013 at 3:41 pm
Janine:
It follows, in much the same way Esteleth was highlighting, about the older men encouraging the younger ones in such behaviour.
John Morales:
February 12th, 2013 at 3:47 pm
sudoma, to what does your link refer and why do you consider it’s worth taking a look?
Esteleth, OH NO ZEBRAFISH ABORTION IN MORDOR:
February 12th, 2013 at 3:59 pm
For the benefit of those who have not read Guyland, I’ll explain what happened when Kimmel presented stats on how male undergraduates drug/give extra-strong drinks to/coerce female undergraduates in order to
have sex withrape them to men and women who (statistically speaking) are their parents:The response of the women was (1) to be horrified and (2) express feelings of sympathy for the young women.
The response of the men was to express frustration that things weren’t like that when THEY were undergraduates. And wish that they were 19 again.
Kimmel does qualify this and say that these responses were not universal, but that there were the two dominant responses.
Pteryxx:
February 12th, 2013 at 4:06 pm
Sudoma’s link is a jokey tumblr about bizarre looking animals… the usual random. (Still good net hygiene to provide a brief description though.)
The Mellow Monkey:
February 12th, 2013 at 4:20 pm
Sweet fucking Jesus. That is horrifying.
…and I see this book is available for the Nook, so I guess I know what I’m reading tonight.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 12th, 2013 at 4:35 pm
Who Said It?
Ted Nugent Or Charles Manson?
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 12th, 2013 at 4:40 pm
Draft Ted Nugent
stevenbrown:
February 12th, 2013 at 4:43 pm
So just thought I’d pop over and say that I’ve left a comment on concordance’s channel asking him to make a video explicitly stating his opinion on the abusive behavior of the people from the SP.
I have no problem with him wanting to debate the merits of freezes peach, he’s wrong but that’s beside the point, but I DO take issue with him and other commentators saying ‘PZ is bad for banning people.’ while not condemning the actions of a group that is straight out abusive.
I’ve been subscribed to his channel for a long time now and if he isn’t willing to do that then I’ll remove my subscription. I can always manually check for new videos that are science focused rather than bullshit focused.
Caine, brigade de garce:
February 12th, 2013 at 4:55 pm
MM:
I have it on my nook, and I’ve been doing a lot of highlighting and note taking, but take Esteleth (and me) at our word – it is profoundly depressing. It does highlight just how much work needs to be done in regard to cultural sexism – about 95% of it involves dismantling the toxicity of masculinity, the concept of being a man. This shit is so deep rooted and so awful, Gah.
I think it’s an important book to read, especially important for anyone who has children.
Tony the Dancing Telegram Queer Shoop:
February 12th, 2013 at 4:56 pm
By way of Amphiox’s #416 (and “thanks” to SteveoR’s racist shit), I decided to explore the origin of the term ‘African-American’.
[emphasis mine]
I rather like the idea in bold. Seems like a conscious effort to not define a minority group by their race (especially when said race was/is discriminated upon because of the color of their skin).
Caine, brigade de garce:
February 12th, 2013 at 4:57 pm
Speaking of books, Mister has now started Manhood in America and is finding it fascinating.
Tony the Dancing Telegram Queer Shoop:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:07 pm
Hmmm, I see *someone* has tweaked their nym… :)
Caine, brigade de garce:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:14 pm
Tony:
After being informed of the Brigade of bitches here, I could not resist.
Esteleth, OH NO ZEBRAFISH ABORTION IN MORDOR:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:15 pm
There’s a Brigade of Bitches here?
Why do I always miss the memo?
mythbri:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:18 pm
I’ve had some thoughts tumbling about, inspired by the goings-on here at Pharyngula (I wish more people who complain about “rudeness” would take advantage of the ability of the comments here to stimulate thought, whether or not you agree with the comments themselves). Two things:
I have a friend on Facebook who posted this yesterday, which I’ll repeat verbatim with a TRIGGER WARNING that it contains language of rape culture, albeit in an “imaginative” way:
I and several others (male and female) commented on this status, telling him how creepy it was that drugging and kidnapping could be okay in ANY context. Several others leapt to his defense, saying that they would love to be roofied and transported unconscious to Disneyland.
This really drove home to me the idea that rape culture is all about entitlement, and with that comes a sense of ownership. Even in this case of “benevolent” sexism, the woman (sorry, “girl”) in this situation has no say in the matter, even if the end result is “positive”. And somehow, this sense is considered “kind”.
I’m not sure if I even need to make this clear, but this friend on Facebook is most definitely a Nice Guy. His response to the people who said they wouldn’t mind being roofied to Disneyland was “I love how some people understand me.”
…
The second thought I had is more of a memory that was jogged by discussion on the “I am asked a question about commenting” thread. Specifically, the talk about “tokenism” making objects of the people who are supposed to be representative of the “Other”.
When I was in college, I went on a school trip to a conference related to my field of study with several other students. We had with us a few faculty members, one of who was black. One of my friends and fellow students kept referring to this faculty member (with whom he had a good and cordial relationship), as the “token black guy.”
When we boarded the plane and were waiting to take off, my friend used (AGAIN) the term “token black guy.” A black woman who was sitting in the seat in front of him turned around.
“Excuse me,” she said, politely. “My name is ______. What’s yours?”
“Scott,” my friend replied.
“Scott, it’s nice to meet you,” she said warmly. “I’m sorry to interrupt, but I felt like I needed to let you know that what you said really bothered me.”
My friend was instantly embarrassed. “It’s kind of an inside joke – ”
“I’m sure it is,” the woman said. “But I’m also sure this gentleman has a legitimate right to be here, so he’s not really a ‘token’, is he?”
My friend tried again. “No, of course not, but it was a joke – ”
“Yes, I know. It doesn’t come off that way in public, though. Thanks for your time, and have a good flight.” The woman turned back around in her seat, and that was the end of it.
I was struck then by how well she handled the situation. I was struck again reading the discussion in the thread I mentioned above that the black faculty member (who is a fantastic, good-natured guy) said nothing in Scott’s defense in this situation, even though he was perfectly able to.
Just another reminder about how people with privilege can wield it like drunk, bumbling elephants. And a simple “Hey, don’t do that” should not be such a BIG FUCKING DEAL.
…
Um, The End.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:23 pm
Esteleth, you can find it in the second paragraph..
Caine, brigade de garce:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:23 pm
Tony:
What is your preference, when it comes to Black or African-American or POC? Or do you like “melanin-enriched”? <ducks>
Amphiox:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:24 pm
That part was in reference to StevoR’s other post, the one where he (once again) doubles down on his ignorance, and in which he himself brings up African American as an example.
And indeed, as always, it is that SECOND post, that doubling down, that confirms the racism. The first post could be written off (and forgiven on a first offence) as unrecognized privilege and other sorts of ignorance. But the refusal to admit error, to apologize, to obstinate insisting that no, there was nothing at all wrong in any way with the words he original chose, THAT is where the racism is revealed.
Caine, brigade de garce:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:25 pm
Esteleth:
That’s what I wanted to know! We’re about swimming in Heartless Bitches here, but no one told me about the brigade.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:25 pm
Mythbri, I am hoping that the friend is now a former friend.
Amphiox:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:27 pm
Indeed.
But why I consider the most pertinent in your citation is issue of agency. It was the people in question who, as a community, chose the term, brought it into use, popularized it, and both directly and indirectly iin the arena of popular usage, debated amongst themselves whether and how to use it.
Not some random white Australian dude arbitrarily decided for himself what is and is not proper an appellation to use to call someone ELSE.
mythbri:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:31 pm
@Janine
Do you mean the first one, or the second one? ;)
The Facebook friend that I mentioned has been un-friended.
The college friend in the second story became “not my friend” when we got into a heated argument about abortion, where he would not budge on his idea that men should be able to prevent their wives/girlfriends/sexual partners from having an abortion if he didn’t want them to. We couldn’t come to any kind of agreement on this, obviously, and the discussion hurt the rest of our friendship.
So no, I’m not friends with either of them any more.
Caine, brigade de garce:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:32 pm
Great green biodegradable Christ in hot pants. I’ll be over there —-> trying to locate my jaw.
glodson:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:37 pm
…
What? What the fuck?! And this guy thought that this status update was good? In any stretch of the imagination? “Hey, I drugged you and dropped you off in the parking lot of a theme park, because I’m a good guy.” Not seeing how this follows.
Fuck. I mean that is just creepy and stupid. I know he didn’t do this. This sounds like an asshole who would defend this crap with the joking defense. Not that it is funny. Or anything.
I really don’t know what to make of this.
John Morales:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:42 pm
mythbri,
Even I can tell that is unambiguously creepy — a power fantasy.
What it would tell the “girl” is that she is powerless and safe only at the mercy of others; also, the obvious concern upon regaining consciousness would be to wonder what was done to her while she was unconscious.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:42 pm
Mythbri, the first one. That is absolutely terrifying. I do not care that his intention is “kind”. He is taking away that woman’s (NOT GIRL!) agency. If he was truly being kind, he would give that gift while she was conscience and in control.
And that second one, yeah, that issue is also a deal breaker.
Tony the Dancing Telegram Queer Shoop:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:43 pm
Caine:
Growing up my parents always identified as black. So did my sister and I. As I got older, I started identifying as African American (not sure why). Today, I go with POC.
The Mellow Monkey:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:48 pm
Yeah, I can tell this is a book I’m going to take extensive notes on.
Tony the Dancing Telegram Queer Shoop:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:50 pm
mythbri:
That FB friend is an utter douchebag. Drugging someone and taking them *anywhere* is not, will not, cannot be fun (in my book, anyways). Drugging a woman, and taking her anywhere is even worse (the treatment of women by men as being objects…things to be used or acquired makes it worse than if a woman drugged a man).
John Morales:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:52 pm
Tony, ex-friend (cf. #455).
mythbri:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:54 pm
@Janine
I know. His defense, what there was of it, is that this was supposed to be a quirky, off-the-wall, “re-imagining” of something bad into something good.
I didn’t tell him that I know for a fact that he and I both know women who have been raped. I didn’t tell him that one of those women in particular could have been badly triggered by what he’d said. I didn’t tell him about the underground warnings that we women gave each other in college (this guy was also a “friend” from college) about which guys would over-pour drinks, which guys got “handsy” when they were drunk, which guys should just never be spoken to ever again.
I haven’t yet come up with a good way to tell all of that to someone who has literally never thought of things in that way before.
In his mind, it was an abstraction. A hypothetical situation.
For a lot of other people, it is their reality. I can’t adequately communicate to people how those worlds are the same one.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:54 pm
I would not say that. It is a violation of a person’s agency, no matter the gender of the person being drugged.
Improbable Joe:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:55 pm
mythbri:
A part of this that strikes me is the fact that “inside jokes” are for INSIDE. As in “inside the circle of friends” or “inside your house” and so on. Something that I’d say to my family or friends may not be suitable for mass consumption, and would likely seem insulting to an outsider when it may in fact be a term of endearment. Plus lots of racial slurs referring to the racial group I belong to, and sometimes towards my friends who are other races. That used to happen a lot, in a sarcastic sort of “come on, you know that’s what a white racist would say if he was sitting and watching us!” kind of way.
Which of course brings us around to punching up versus punching down, and power differentials. Privileged college friend takes black faculty member’s silence as consent and even approval. Black faculty member understands that not putting up with privileged college student’s casual racism may be more trouble than it is worse, especially if they know that there’s a history at that school of “uppity” black faculty being slapped down as “reverse racists” or “troublemakers” for complaining about racist students.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 12th, 2013 at 5:58 pm
Mythbri, I have never been roofied and raped but I would be furious if anyone pulled that hypothetical scenario to me. As much as I try to avoid this, I would bring charges against that person.
And warn everyone around that person just what he is capable of doing.
Caine, brigade de garce:
February 12th, 2013 at 6:00 pm
John:
In. A. Nutshell. Women already deal with enough reminders on that score, to have something like that done would be terrifying. I’m at a loss as to how anyone could view such an act as one of kindness.
mythbri:
February 12th, 2013 at 6:10 pm
@Improbable Joe
Yes, that was my realization as well. Thinking back on it, being a black faculty member at a state university with a very small population of people of color, and with plenty of privileged white kids still trying to figure shit out, I’m amazed at the patience he must have had. I lament my lack of understanding that prevented me from addressing some of the things I recognize only now, looking back on them.
…
@Caine
I couldn’t understand it, either. And it says something about how entrenched we are in a rape culture that I’m happy that at least I wasn’t the only one who protested.
Xanthë:
February 12th, 2013 at 6:15 pm
It only seems like yesterday Jen McCreight posted this: The “Justifications for Saying ‘Cunt’” bingo card.
Really, the stand on gendered slurs is not that hard to understand, and people have been talking about it for a really long time; there’s something like a dozen threads on Ophelia Benson’s blog I could cite. Oh wait, I don’t have because someone else has done it for me!
The following threads are from the ur-blog, http://www.butterfliesandwheels.org — just add these paths to the base URL:
/2009/the-epithet-question/
/2009/knowing-what-words-mean/
/2009/here-kitty-kitty-kitty-kitty/
/2009/empty-signs/
/2010/epithets/
/2011/what-was-that-we-were-saying-about-sexist-epithets-five-years-ago/
/2011/crazy-american-bitches/
/2011/invitation-to-a-dialogue/
/2011/the-nuanced-discussion/
And since the move to FTB:
freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2011/09/what-misogynists-call-outspoken-women/
freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2012/01/misogyny-what-misogyny/
freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2012/02/that-would-come-in-handy/
freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2012/03/man-boobz-v-reddit/
freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2012/03/i-get-email/
Probably more I could cite without trying too hard to search. And that’s only Ophelia’s blog.
Tony the Dancing Telegram Queer Shoop:
February 12th, 2013 at 6:28 pm
Janine:
I was thinking both situations are horrible, but for a guy to do it to a woman, given the way women have been treated by men historically, it turns the dial to 11.
Cyranothe2nd:
February 12th, 2013 at 6:28 pm
On using the c-word
“Cunt” is wrong for 2 reasons. First, because there is a long and ugly history in Western culture (Britain & US alike) of objectifying women–of collapsing them down into a body part. So, to refer to a woman as a specifically-female body part props up the objectification of women as ‘female parts’ only.
Second, the implication of calling someone a ‘cunt’ as a slur is that a ‘cunt’ is a bad, dirty, gross thing to be. Which implies that it’s a bad, dirty, gross thing to have. And again, there is a long history in Western culture of treating women’s vaginas like they are gross, bad, dirty and shameful (as well as hysterical, emotional, ect.) So again, using the word in this way carries a lot of cultural baggage that is NOT simply US-centric, but Western-centric.
On sexist insults in general
In general–if a word has a history of being used to shame, control, denigrate etc a marginalized or disempowered group, then its a good idea not to use that word because it has too much cultural baggage. Its simply too loaded. Even if YOU don’t mean it that way, there are plenty of people who DO mean it that way. The meaning hasn’t changed to such an extent that the other, marginalizing meaning doesn’t still exist, and isn’t still actively used. Using these words at the least aids in keeping the sexist connotation alive. It gives aid to sexists who use the word in that way. And, at most, it actively causes people to frame marginalized groups in certain ways.
Let me give an example. Using the word “collateral damage” instead of “civilian casualties” changes how many people feel about war because it obscures the fact that civilians are dying. I think that, in this same way, using sexist words inures people to sexist ideas. Using “mankind” to refer to humankind implies that “man” is the default and “woman” is the weird Other. So too ESPN have sections for “basketball” and “women’s basketball,” as if men playing basketball is the default. Calling a woman a “bitch” -even when referring to one specific woman- buys into sexist ideas like “women should be quiet and submissive” and “women who are aggressive are masculine.” This social baggage exists, regardless of intention.
Numerous studies have shown that sexist insults, even when used towards only one person, affect the group as a whole. These terms create splash damage. There’s lots of info on this out there. Words cannot be divorced from systems of meaning.
Finally, if the goal is to communicate with me as a woman in skepticism, and I say, “Hey, that word is really offensive to me. It carries a lot of sexist cultural baggage and buys into an apparatus of sexist thought that is still very much in use today. Can we not use it?”– is being able to use the word regardless really the hill you want to die on?
Hekuni Cat, MQG:
February 12th, 2013 at 6:29 pm
WTF! This literally nauseated me.
Cyranothe2nd:
February 12th, 2013 at 6:36 pm
I think in current racism-study circles, black people are called “Black” and “people of color” refer to all non-white people as a whole. Also, Native Americans are typically referred to by tribal name or as “Indian,” but sometimes First Peoples (though this is used more in Canada than the US).
If you guys want to read something that will rage you, check on Tim Wise’s email exchange with the ultra-rightwing racism apologist A.R. Ward: http://www.timwise.org/2013/02/ongoing-debate-with-conservative-blogger-a-r-ward-on-race-and-racism-in-america/
Its a long read, but a good one.
Cyranothe2nd:
February 12th, 2013 at 6:39 pm
Hekuni,
FOR REAL! Totally creepy and weird.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
February 12th, 2013 at 6:41 pm
Esteleth
What the entire fuck? That’s appalling. I don’t even have words.
mythbri#448
So’s that. (The first one; the second story the guy was being an obnoxious twerp, but it’s nothing like that shit from FB.) I cannot see of how that could conceivably sound like a good idea. Any idea that starts with drugging someone unconscious, and doesn’t involve them having gone to a hospital for surgery first, is an intrinsically bad one, and this is something that really should be obvious (to someone who actually views those on the receiving end of the drugs as people, anyway, which is exactly the problem here.)
Caine
Love the new ‘nym, although technically, it should be ‘garces.’ I actually wasn’t familiar with the derogatory usage of the word, as I’d previously only encountered it as the feminine form a ‘gars’ (Gals and guys, respectively; garce meaning bitch is a usage I hadn’t seen before; this is what I get for only reading French fiction from a century or so ago.)
Amphiox
I must have missed that one; I tend to kind of skim his posts.
Caine, brigade de garce:
February 12th, 2013 at 6:46 pm
Cyranothe2nd:
Yeah, I prefer Indian. A whole lot of NDNs just eyeroll when they hear “Native American”. Not our term.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 12th, 2013 at 6:50 pm
Dalillama:
Thank you, fixed.
Esteleth, OH NO ZEBRAFISH ABORTION IN MORDOR:
February 12th, 2013 at 6:52 pm
If I were to change my nym to Carlin’s 7 dirty words (spelled out, obvs) how do you think that would sit?
Hmm.
Esteleth, OH NO ZEBRAFISH ABORTION IN MORDOR:
February 12th, 2013 at 6:55 pm
Wait, one of them is “cunt,” right?
*rethinks this*
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 12th, 2013 at 7:03 pm
Esteleth:
Put them all together and put them in the Internet Anagram Server.
The Mellow Monkey:
February 12th, 2013 at 7:06 pm
Cyranothe2nd:
Yeah, that goes back to what Amphiox said upthread about African American being an example of agency. Native American isn’t from Indian agency.
Cyranothe2nd Ladyporn Afficianado:
February 12th, 2013 at 7:07 pm
I have a job interview tomorrow at a small college over on the island. I’m really hopeful that I get it, but worried about the travel time (ferry rides SUCK) and about the hours interfering with the one class I’ve already agreed to teach at my current college….
Cyranothe2nd Ladyporn Afficianado:
February 12th, 2013 at 7:08 pm
By “the island” I mean an island in the Puget Sound that I would have to travel to by ferry…
Esteleth, Ficus Putsch Knits:
February 12th, 2013 at 7:08 pm
Internet Anagram Server cannot handle that many letters! :( :(
However, just shit piss fuck cunt gives me Ficus Putsch Knits.
Catchy!
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 12th, 2013 at 7:10 pm
Esteleth:
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Nice!
Esteleth, Ficus Putsch Knits:
February 12th, 2013 at 7:11 pm
Now, I’m trying to figure out what a ficus putsch looks like so that I could knit it. :/
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 12th, 2013 at 7:15 pm
Esteleth:
A bunch of ficus plants in a beer hall plotting their revolt?
Esteleth, Ficus Putsch Knits:
February 12th, 2013 at 7:18 pm
In stylish pots, too. Everyone knows fascist ficii are stylish
Xanthë:
February 12th, 2013 at 7:24 pm
Hi Mythbri,
Yeah. The triggering quote about drugging/kidnapping is clearly and unmistakeably sexual objectification, and rape culture intervenes for many people to defend it. Caroline Heldman speaks of the relation of ‘object’ and ‘subject’ in her recent TEDx talk and gives plenty of examples of objectification in her blog on media images; the particular type of objectification at work here is:
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, citing Martha Nussbaum, 1995, “Objectification”, Philosophy and Public Affairs, 24(4): 249–291, page 257.
I think the anecdote treats the woman involved as a passive object with no say in the matter, in every single one of those senses. So, not such a Nice Guy (quelle surprise).
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 12th, 2013 at 7:25 pm
Esteleth:
Oh, absolutely. That’s a must.
Tony the Queer Shoop (now with 30% more melanin):
February 12th, 2013 at 7:25 pm
Well, since everyone else is doing it…
Tony the Queer Shoop (now with 30% more melanin):
February 12th, 2013 at 7:37 pm
I have popcorn on stand by for strange gods’ response to SteveoR…(bless his lil’ racist heart, he thinks sgbm is bullying him)
Xanthë:
February 12th, 2013 at 7:41 pm
The citation for my new sobriquet.
Xanthë, quote “is @Xanthe_Cat a chick or a cunt?” unquote:
February 12th, 2013 at 7:42 pm
Oh, damn and blast!
Cyranothe2nd, ladyporn afficianado:
February 12th, 2013 at 7:43 pm
Tony–link?
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 12th, 2013 at 7:45 pm
Tony:
Hee. I like it.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 12th, 2013 at 7:48 pm
Xanthe:
A chick or a cunt? These are the options these days, like ‘gay or a guy’?
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 12th, 2013 at 7:51 pm
There are some very interesting anagrams of chickorcunt.
Tony the Queer Shoop (now with 30% more melanin):
February 12th, 2013 at 7:52 pm
Cyranothe2nd:
SteveoR’s response to and whine at SG is upthread @394 (it is difficult doing links on my phone).
John Morales:
February 12th, 2013 at 7:58 pm
I don’t do the ironic antonomasia thingy, but I have no problem with those who do.
BTW, catching up on the meddle thread, and I note that the ‘mad women of Pharyngula’ meme has become historical.
–
ObMusicalInterlude: Meddle.
Cyranothe2nd, ladyporn afficianado:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:01 pm
Tony @ 500–thanks. “melanin enriched” holy shitballs, how does he even type this stuff without his keyboard cringing away from his racist fingers???
stevenbrown:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:04 pm
Lucky I can’t be off topic here.
A Defence of Comic Sans
I know many of the horde have a soft spot for that font.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:08 pm
John:
What did I miss?
Cyranothe2nd, you can easily do thread searches with keywords or nyms by using Ctrl + f
Cyranothe2nd, ladyporn afficianado:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:09 pm
@ Caine–didn’t think it was on this iteration of the TD. But thanks. :)
John Morales:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:10 pm
stevenbrown, a “font” (actually, a generic typeface) is just a logographic variant of ordinary graphemes.
(I myself noted on this site — years ago — that I find Comic Sans very legible)
John Morales:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:15 pm
Caine, I refer to the term “bitch brigade” which was rightly derided there.
(As far back as 2005-6, people noted how uppity are the women commenters of Pharyngula, and thus the meme was aborn)
Rev. BigDumbChimp:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:17 pm
Now that is hilariously self unaware
myeck waters:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:17 pm
…but what about the uppity menz?
carlie:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:22 pm
The only way that guy’s idea about showing the woman that “sometimes the world can be kind” makes any sense at all is if you take it as a given that of course the expected behavior would be for him to drug her and then rape her; in that case, see, he is being so nice! because he didn’t actually rape her and sent her on vacation instead! So in that world, where the expectation is of being drugged and raped, he gets a cookie for not doing that. He can’t seem to think about the possibility of a world in which people don’t expect women to probably get drugged and raped.
mythbri:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:24 pm
@Xanthe #490
I recently watched Caroline Heldman’s TEDx talk myself, and recognized several behaviors that she identified as behaviors that I have. I’ve made a conscious effort to note the difference between when I’m adjusting my position for comfort, or when I’m adjusting my position because I think I might look slouchy, or adjusting my clothes to better hide my stomach (which I can’t help but think is too big).
I agree that the criteria she laid out exactly fits the objectification present in the FB status that I quoted here. I wish she had gone a little more into detail about her statistic that 96% of objectified bodies in the media are female. I would say it’s as common as the nitrogen/oxygen mixture we breathe, and most of us are just as conscious of it (which is to say, not at all).
It’s no wonder there’s such resistance to these kinds of topics – this kind of sexism and objectification is ubiquitous. It seems normal. Hell, it IS normal, but it’s something we need to change.
carlie:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:25 pm
Hm, should I be “carlie, whose body spitefully refuses to produce more melanin no matter how many sunburns it gets”?
John Morales:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:26 pm
myeck,
Oxymoron.
Xanthë, uh, action crack:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:28 pm
Caine,
Apparently! I know, and apart from the problem of being infantilised or treated as synecdoche, what about the possibility that I might be both?
Thanks for the link to the anagram finder, as my dedicated program for such things stopped working after an OS upgrade. I decided to include the letter ‘a’ to widen the options, though ‘Xanthë, chronic tuck’ would be pretty accurate most of the time in respect of my clothing arrangements.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:31 pm
John:
Oh yes, that’s always noticeable. I got stuck on historical and was thinking in a different direction, so I brainfarted away from your point.
I think it’s really nice it’s all so much larger than the mad women of Pharyngula these days.
John Morales:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:33 pm
mythbri,
(Riffing here)
Some years back (hm, maybe more than a few, time speeds up as I age) I noticed it had become the fashion for girls and young women to wear pants the belt of which was just above the pubis; this meant that many flouted their bellies, whether they were chubby or not.
(I thought it looked silly, but I was not unaware that they were flaunting themselves because the fashion allowed it, and thought it not at all a bad thing)
mythbri:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:33 pm
@carlie #510
If I hadn’t already experienced it in threads right here at FTB, I would never have thought that anyone expected a cookie for NOT raping someone.
Why isn’t NOT raping someone considered the default, instead of the norm?
That’s like me expecting a cookie for NOT murdering someone.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:34 pm
Xanthe:
‘Chronic tuck’ caught my eye immediately. Maybe it’s just the way it sounds, but I quite liked it.
cm's changeable moniker:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:34 pm
Pffft. Maurice Godelier. Buraya people. Societies are weird.
Or, more relevantly:
Paging David Brooks. David Brooks to the courtesy phone please.
SallyStrange: Brigadier General. Yes, of THAT Brigade.:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:36 pm
Hi guys.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:37 pm
John:
I remember wearing hip huggers in high school, some of which were very low cut, paired with short tops (usually came to the bottom of the ribcage) or halter tops. Showing your midriff off was all the rage back in the ’70s.
mythbri:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:38 pm
@John Morales
My beef with fashion in general (which gets better or worse depending on what’s in style) is that designers rarely design clothes for women that look like me. I’m 5’6″ and stocky, with broad shoulders. It’s hell trying to find shirts that fit me and are long enough to cover my torso, or pants that fit but don’t drag on the ground. I was glad when layering clothing came into style, and I plan to pretty much stick with that, regardless of what kind of nonsense pops into fashion leaders’ heads next.
And forget about finding tall boots that fit around my calves, or ANY cute shoes for someone with size 10.5 US feet…
Xanthë, uh, action crack:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:38 pm
Hi Mythbri,
I have to ‘me too’ on this, with the additional double-sided gotcha! that being trans*, if I am engaging in feminine mannerisms I’m buying into the idea of ‘passing’ which helps oppress ourselves and other women, whereas if I behave in masculine ways then I’m not really transgender because ‘real transsexuals’ wouldn’t behave like that! *sigh*
I found myself wishing she’d given a little bit more detail on that, elsewhere she mentioned that the 96% statistic was her own findings: “I ran a content analysis in 2010 on top popular magazines, television shows, films, and music videos, and got this number.”
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:39 pm
cm:
If it’s not relevant to you, fine. I’m sure you can find it in you, somewhere, to not mind if others of us do find it relevant, especially as we are dealing with the effects every day of our lives. Thanks ever and all that.
throwaway, Preferred singular pronouns: they, them, their, it:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:44 pm
I had a frustrating encounter at a family function tonight. Young male sexist, but not really a sexist, oh no, he just calls em as he sees him. On the subject of the lack of female announcers in booths at sporting events but the prevalence of sideline commentators – of the women that he sees doing the commenting, most of the women can’t keep up or capture the essence of the game .oO(gross, kinda reminded me of coye, not the type of encounter I wanted tonight) in the same way a man can. I totally wanted to press the issue, dammit, but he’s the grand-nephew of a full-grown adult sexist who I’ve not really got along well with. I totally wanted to ask him whether he thought that maybe his bias in deferring to men as authority figures in all things sports was due to his upbringing in society. I really want to broach the issue next time I’m around him, because ridding the world of a prodigious sexist asshole (like Lee Coye) before he has the opportunity to get set in his ways is a net win for humanity.
And that is why I say fuck civility. It really is a silencing tactic for those not in obedience to the status quo, and I should have recognized it’s the same pseudo-civility which gives religion that fucking untouchably-impolite-in-civil-discourse status.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:44 pm
Hi Sally, how ya doing?
Xanthe:
Oh ffs. That’s similar to the shit I’ve heard about being bisexual. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Shouldn’t it be about how you feel, as an individual? If you’re femme, you’re femme and why not do those things that make you happy? (And of vice versa, of course.)
mythbri:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:44 pm
@Xanthe #523
Could you explain further about what you mean by “passing” oppressing other trans* women and cis-women?
Do you mean it reinforces an oppressive form of femininity, instead of promoting gender fluidity (i.e., breaking down perceptions of behavior that is stereotypically masculine or feminine)?
John Morales:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:53 pm
mythbri, good attitude. :)
You should know that I respect accept your body dysmorphia insofar as it is your own personal feeling, and pity you insofar as it’s societally-induced — and I can’t help but feel it’s both.
(But we’re all a bit like that, at minimum)
mythbri:
February 12th, 2013 at 8:56 pm
@John Morales
I understand what you mean. It’s a fine balance between accepting yourself, accepting negative feelings about yourself, and understanding how much of both of those can be attributed to societal influences.
Tony the Queer Shoop (now with 30% more melanin):
February 12th, 2013 at 9:01 pm
SallyStrange:
May I send a stiff drink over USB to you? Dealing with lee coye as much as you have must be frustrating…kudos, by the way.
John Morales:
February 12th, 2013 at 9:02 pm
Thanks, mythbri — it’s pleasant to be perfectly understood. ♥
cm's changeable moniker:
February 12th, 2013 at 9:06 pm
Way to miss the point. Of course it’s relevant to me otherwise I wouldn’t have bothered posting.
This seens wildly unsubstantiated, and furthermore seems (based on personal experience of my nephews and nieces) to be broadly untrue. If Kimmel has some surveys to back it up — the previous datapoint was that alumni didn’t want to inhibit party culture, which as far as I can tell says nothing about “the average young American man today”, well, let’s see it.
But it feels, overall, like DB’s bobos. Plausible but wrong.
Xanthë, uh, action crack:
February 12th, 2013 at 9:08 pm
In case it wasn’t clear, I’m not endorsing either of the positions I laid out in #523, which are traps that trans* women are sometimes accused of falling into.
Mythbri,
In short, yes. I could probably dive into Janice Raymond’s book of transphobic shit and find a quotation which sums this attitude up, that trans* women performing femininity is R0NG because gender essentialism, because stereotyped femininity, because really Be-ing men trapped in men’s bodies, etc.
Caine,
Totally agree, and I love being femme and hate that I’m being judged on whether I’m doing it rightly or not. How that related to passing is that there shouldn’t be any need to engage in it all… except I do tend to police my own behaviour scrupulously in public because I don’t like being attacked by random hooligans, just for being a bit different. It’s exactly what Caroline Heldman mentions about the average woman being aware of exactly how often they are thinking about how their body appears to the world.
Xanthë, uh, action crack:
February 12th, 2013 at 9:10 pm
And, since I clicked ‘submit’ before I remembered I was going to add this in somewhere,
Hi Sally!
cm's changeable moniker:
February 12th, 2013 at 9:15 pm
Pffft.
There are riffs which must be respected.
Big Generator
(Sorry to anyone appalled.)
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 12th, 2013 at 9:19 pm
Xanthe:
I don’t even know what it means to “do being femme right.” I have a feeling that if there were a test, I’d fail.
cm's changeable moniker:
February 12th, 2013 at 9:28 pm
OK, if you don’t like Yes.
Trevor Rabin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6nN6o9a4QA
.
mythbri:
February 12th, 2013 at 9:34 pm
I grew up as a “tomboy” in the Mormon church, so I had to deal with being gender-policed and encouraged to do gender-policing myself. It was clear to me which gender was considered to be “better” than the other, and I figured that since I was already a tomboy, I would just embrace that identity whole-heartedly. Well, my approach to that was to reject femininity in many forms. I still hate the color pink, but not quite as much as I used to. I used to judge girls my age who were focused “too much” (in my opinion) on their appearances. I thought that any attention paid to one’s own appearance was an admission of having a shallow personality, but somehow I only applied this standard to girls. I don’t remember thinking of adult women in this way (except for the gender-policing that made it “okay” for me to identify “slutty” behavior in women), and I definitely don’t remember applying the appearance-concerns-are-shallow standard to boys or men.
There were a lot of factors that contributed to me being outcast at school and at church, and in my extended family. I think my rejection of femininity can be safely assumed to be one of them. It wasn’t until I graduated high school, moved out on my own, and started attending college that I realized that it was okay for me to be as feminine as I cared to be. It didn’t make me weak. It didn’t make me shallow. It made me feel better about myself, actually. I was able to develop a style that worked for me, and my overall happiness with my self-image improved.
If you care to take advice from someone who doesn’t know what she’s talking about, Xanthe, I’d say just do what comes naturally. I try to do that, too. And like Caine, if there were a test for “being femme correctly”, I have no doubt that I’d fail.
cicely (Dancing on Monday's grave.):
February 12th, 2013 at 9:34 pm
WTF, Evolution? is made of Awesome! Think I’ll stat some of those suckers up. For later.
-
Caine and Esteleth: I commend you for your work in the trenches. Permission to wimp out and not read those books? I’m totally willing to take your word for it, and don’t especially want to add that flavor to my nightmares, you see, and anyways I’m a total whimpering coward.
And i can’t trust my imagination.
Srsly. You’re due your choice of 1) medals or 2) as much Very Strong Drink as you’d like.
-
Exactly.
“Lucky for you that I decided—this time—not to use my Penis Power for Evil! Be humbly grateful!”
-
Cyranothe2nd, I read this as, “I’m really hopeful that I get it, but worried about the time travel“.
:D
-
*turning the page*
Xanthë, uh, action crack:
February 12th, 2013 at 9:34 pm
Bottom line is, gender policing sucks, whether it’s being done by TERFs, HBSers, or anyone else. I’m lucky I haven’t encountered very much of it at all since I’ve transitioned, so that currently I tend to be my own harshest critic.
consciousness razor:
February 12th, 2013 at 9:34 pm
You must have an awful lot of nephews and nieces — of what age, background, etc.? — or else I don’t see how your perceptions of them (assuming they’re accurate) could be about what is broadly untrue.
The Mellow Monkey:
February 12th, 2013 at 9:37 pm
Another problem with the concept of “passing” is that it sets up a narrow spectrum of cis people as having a normal appearance and as a goal to try to mimic, instead of actually accepting trans* people (and all the cis people whose bodies don’t match that norm).
I remember a guest lecturer speaking about trans* issues in a sociology class when I was in college pointing me out to the rest of the class as someone who couldn’t pass because of the angularity of my facial features. No, ma’am, I just don’t have the features of a WASP woman, but thanks for drawing such attention to my looks.
FTR, someone who would do something like that is a really bad choice for lecturing on trans* issues. She was lucky I was the target of her stupid example and not someone who could have been seriously harmed by it.
Xanthë, uh, action crack:
February 12th, 2013 at 9:41 pm
Mythbri, seeing as our comments passed each other in the same minute, I like the advice. Someone else whose opinion I respect summed up a similar sort of idea as the motto, ‘keep it real’.
cicely (Dancing on Monday's grave.):
February 12th, 2013 at 9:42 pm
SallyStrange!
*pouncehug*
-
consciousness razor:
February 12th, 2013 at 9:44 pm
Rubio sure is talking a load of nonsense. Fuck, I think my brain is starting to shut down.
consciousness razor:
February 12th, 2013 at 9:45 pm
AAAHhhh, he actually just finished…. finally. I think I’ll be okay.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 12th, 2013 at 9:48 pm
Already a GIF.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 12th, 2013 at 9:53 pm
Cicely:
Absolutely. *Hands Cicely a drink and a cookie* Not the easiest reading I’ve ever done. Worthwhile, though. Manhood in America has given me a much clearer picture of how the concept of masculinity has been formed and how much it remains the same and also how it’s gone completely pear-shaped for a lot of men (mostly those attracted to MRA activity.) Misogyny provided an excellent historical perspective and how the same misogynistic attitudes keep successfully morphing, so they stay with us and Guyland is proving to be quite illuminating, even if it is depressing. Until the concept of masculinity starts to change, we aren’t going to get a whole lot further along. It’s another reason it’s so important for men to speak up to other men.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 12th, 2013 at 9:57 pm
Xanthe:
I think this is one of those situations where be true to yourself matters.
cicely (Dancing on Monday's grave.):
February 12th, 2013 at 10:01 pm
Bedtime, and may the squirrels and the raccoons and the damned skunks rest quiet. And odorless.
‘Night, all.
-
consciousness razor:
February 12th, 2013 at 10:09 pm
It’s much easier with kids. They’ll listen and actually respond, even if it’s not in the most productive way. To them, I’m an authority and probably even a little intimidating. Talking to adult men about that sort of thing is so full of silencing tactics and other mind games that it seems impossible sometimes. If they’re friends or family, it’s easier since some of their defenses may not be up all of the time; but some random dude on the street or at work can take it a lot of different directions, none of which are very helpful.
Hekuni Cat, MQG:
February 12th, 2013 at 10:16 pm
Caine – I have just started Misogyny. Thank you for suggesting it.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 12th, 2013 at 10:49 pm
CR:
Yes, Kimmel mentions how easy it can be to discuss such things with boys*, however, the transition from boy to guy happens at a young age these days, and that’s where a great deal of toxic masculinity is hammered home, even when a guy thinks it’s all a bunch of shit. The consequences of going against the tide are very high. It’s a very interesting read, and while I appreciate just how difficult it can be to talk to adult men, it’s still beyond important that men do that, because men will still tend to pay more attention to another man.
What’s been really helpful in reading these books is that Mister is reading them, too. It’s very helpful to talk about these issues with a man (I wish more men would read them, I’d love to get their perspectives as well), who lives with these various concepts, has struggled with them, grew up with them, etc.
*I really have to take everyone else at their word here, as I have no experience with boys of any age, not having any sprogs (nor any siblings) and very little to do with sprogs in general.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 12th, 2013 at 10:53 pm
Hekuni Cat:
Thank you! That’s an excellent book, I learned a lot. Especially in the very early history part and the specifics of how religion played out in changing and spreading misogyny. I hope you enjoy it and I’d love to hear what you think about it.
Nepenthe:
February 12th, 2013 at 10:56 pm
How can one be untrue to one’s self?
mythbri:
February 12th, 2013 at 10:56 pm
@Caine
Crommunist has Edwin Hodge as a guest blogger over at his place, and this is his area of study. Here’s the link to his FTBlogging profile, which has a link to his personal blog as well. You can also find him on teh Twitter – he seems like he’d be a good person to have these discussions with.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/crommunist/author/edwinhodge/
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 12th, 2013 at 11:04 pm
Easily. People do it all the time.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 12th, 2013 at 11:05 pm
Mythbri, thanks, I’ll check that out. It’s probably silly, but I’d feel better discussing these books with people I know.
Nepenthe:
February 12th, 2013 at 11:41 pm
@557
How do you know that they’re being untrue to themselves?
theophontes (坏蛋):
February 13th, 2013 at 1:05 am
[patriachy vs matriarchy]
There seems to be an underlying fear amongst defenders of the patriarchy, that feminists seek to create a “matriarchy” that will retain the same power structures and merely invert the power gradient itself. That is to say that the same iniquities will be retained, but prosecuted by women rather than men. Misogyny will simply be replaced by misandry.
I see that this issue has been adressed by Mara Lynn Keller in Fertility, Sexuality and Rebirth:
The emphasis is mine. It may be that the search for a “matriarchal society” is looking for the wrong things. It is not, as the above indicates, a search for dominance by women or an inversion of the patriarchy. It is in fact quite a different kettle of fish altogether.
Xanthë, chronic tuck:
February 13th, 2013 at 1:16 am
Nepenthe, in respect of #559, would any of “not wanting to come out and admit you’re probably transsexual because of fear that people of what people would think (i.e. you’re mentally ill), and therefore living in denial about it for twenty or so years” fit the bill?
Tigger_the_Wing, Melanin Deficient:
February 13th, 2013 at 1:38 am
Seconding Xanthë’s comment (except, in my case, it was close to half a century). ‘Being true to yourself’ is only allowed by society if your ‘self’ fits into one of a very few acceptable boxes. Just like everyone can be unique as long as we do it the same way as everyone else.
I am incapable of slipping easily (or at all) into the mindset of ‘feminine’; I simply don’t ‘get it’, and never did (much to the ongoing despair of my mother, particularly in my teens). I sort-of learnt to co-ordinate outfits but when I attempt to do so in a ‘feminine’ way, I’m pretty darned sure I miss completely. I don’t have the body language to carry it off either.
Fortunately, I am pretty much unaware of other people’s reactions to me.
Mandrellian, Kicker of Biological Goals:
February 13th, 2013 at 2:06 am
“Be true to yourself.” Interesting concept – how many people can say they do it 100% ?
In many contexts, as intimated in #562 by Tigger, being true to oneself (or “being yourself” or “living your truth”, however it’s expressed) is inappropriate or unwelcome. Be “yourself” at school and if you’re not immediately able to be pigeonholed you might well find yourself friendless or marginalised. Be “true to yourself” during Pop Idol (as opposed to conforming to the narrow behavioural and artistic parameters dictated by the show and the culture it’s a symptom of) and you’ll be voted off. “Live your truth” at work and you may need to look through the classifieds the next day.
The above may be extreme examples but the fact is, most of us have more than one “self” that we wear like clothes and I suspect most people aren’t even aware of how many selves they actually possess. Work self, home self, alone self, mum & dad self, sibling self, child self, grandparent self, in-laws self, party self. Even if subtle to the point of imperceptibility, the adjustments we make to our behaviour and communication style alter who we are depending on the specific context. In many cases it is entirely true that our actions define us, not just to others but to ourselves, and the confidence to actually be a different self to one that’s normally dictated by context is rare, temporary and often, as you might expect, imposed by a change in the context: i.e. you find yourself the centre of attention after a particularly awesome joke/sports victory/stage performance and briefly experience an upsurge in self-confidence such that you’ll behave in a radically different manner than usual (provided the positive social feedback continues).
As I put it at this shonky comic of mine here [http://ekranoplan.org/hairdo.html]: “a certain level of popularity is required before non-conformity is a viable [social] option.”
/end meta OT comment and necroplug.
Tigger_the_Wing, Melanin Deficient:
February 13th, 2013 at 2:18 am
There’s no such thing as OT in the dome! =^_^=
Giliell, professional cynic:
February 13th, 2013 at 2:37 am
Xanthe
Damn, that’s really being between a rock and a hard place. We kind of talked about it in the Lounge these days, too. Given how far cis women’s (and men’s) choices are already policed I fail to even imagine how bad it must be for trans* people.
On the issue of being femme, femininty and masculinity, and gender expression, I still want all of that to die in a fire. Fuck that shit. There’s nothing inherently female in pink lace, or masculine in a black powerdrill.
In our society nobody can be “true to oneself”. We have never been given all the options.
I still accept and respect and support that in a society salient with gender “gender expression” needs and should be protected. But it’s a fine line to walk. I don’t want trans* women’s lives to be used to beat me over the head with in terms of gender expression and behaviour and I most definetly don’t want to throw trans* women under the bus on my crusade against femininity and masculinity.
Anecdote to fit the topic: I had noticed that the little one was only ever talking about her male kindergarten pals (with the exception of one girl). What took me about three weks was asking myself the question about <iwhich girls might be her friends. So this morning I did a quick count and look and behold, currently the boys outnumber the girls 2:1 and it’s even worse in her age-group. I am pretty sure that I would have noticed way sooner had it been the other way round.
StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!:
February 13th, 2013 at 3:03 am
Y’know what?
Y’all cannot judge me based merely on a handful of comments
That you’ve very badly misinterpreted and misread.
You do not know me.
You can’t judge me.
I simply am NOT who or what some of you falsely think I am.
*I* know who I am.
And you do NOT.
I tell you as the expert and primary source when it comes to who I am that
I am NOT a bad person.
Or any of the horrible, hurtful things I’ve been very wrongly been accused of being on Pharyngula.
Y’all are far too quick to condemn.
Those who merely disagree with you on a few issues.
I think y’all need to realise, absorb and appreciate this observation
Of fact.
Learn from it, and stop being such douchebags to those who just disagree with you.
Ocassionally, on some issues.
‘K?
Have a Balloon:
February 13th, 2013 at 3:04 am
Giliell
Uh, I think stevecarlos begs to disagree…
theophontes (坏蛋):
February 13th, 2013 at 3:13 am
@ StevoR
No StevoR. I am opposed to your whole life attitude. Stop. Listen. Change.
StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!:
February 13th, 2013 at 3:23 am
PS. .. And all that stuff I wrote in # 566 I intend to prove to y’all eventually.
@568. theophontes (坏蛋) : You think I’m not doing that already?
Please ask yourself – you and others here – could you be wrong about me?
I tell you that you are.
StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!:
February 13th, 2013 at 3:25 am
G’night y’all.
Will catch up in a day or two, inshallah, shalom.
evilisgood:
February 13th, 2013 at 3:32 am
There is good in you StevoR, but you keep digging yourself into this weird ethnocentric hole as you try to prove that you hold absolutely no ethnocentric ideas. You do. I do, too. Everybody does. Is it more important to you to prove your point or to understand where you keep going wrong?
Please think about your answer.
Pteryxx:
February 13th, 2013 at 3:41 am
*facetalon* *heavy sigh*
“Goodbye, Mrs. Gloop. Adieu, auf wiedersehen, gesundheit, farewell.”
theophontes (坏蛋):
February 13th, 2013 at 3:46 am
This keeps me going (against my better judgement).
StevoR, you really have to learn to be more self-critical. That is never easy but you have to realise that this has got to come from you. One way to start, is to take criticism seriously. We are not making shit up, we really do see you are having some serious issues and at the same time being in denial. We have not just selected some random commentor and accused him of bigotry. It is your very own words that have lead to this. Unless you start opening yourself up to our criticism (it is what you make of it) you cannot do yourself the favour of reform. Too many of your comments come across as a caricature of a bigoted person. Surely you don’t really want this for yourself?
(A friend is not someone, who when noticing a booger on the tip of your nose, stays quiet and lets you continue on in embarassment. Stop making the rest of us out to be the enemy and either trust us or look in the mirror.)
Giliell, professional cynic:
February 13th, 2013 at 3:47 am
StevoR
You know what?
Yes we can
Again you’re throwing yourself on the floor and feel that you’re badly misunderstood and that’s everybody else’s fault. Again you’re wrong. If you constantly express yourself in a way that is interpreted as racist by about everybody, the problem is you, not everybody. No, that’s not an appeal to popularity. It’s how fucking language works. Again, you haven’t actually brought forth any argument why your “melantonin enriched” fuckwittery was anything but racist and you keep insisting that the only person allowed to judge anything as racist or not is yourself. Get over yourself, nobody died and made you Chomsky.
And I’m damn glad about it.
I still can. Don’t know why you think the word “can’t” makes any sense in there. I am obviously able to do so, I obviously have the opportunity to do so and I am obviously allowed to do so. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t even mean we shouldn’t.
Giliell, professional cynic:
February 13th, 2013 at 3:52 am
theophontes
You’re a much nicer person than me.
Pteryxx:
February 13th, 2013 at 4:00 am
Giliell: but, but the “melatonin enriched” remark was YEEEARS ago and he’s changed! (So was the inshallah/shalom remark. My how time flies.)
Tigger_the_Wing, Melanin Deficient:
February 13th, 2013 at 4:04 am
StevoR, seriously, it was the (largely false) impression that I had about Australia being full of people like you that put me off the idea of ever coming here. When the move became inevitable, I was afraid; but put a brave face on it for hubby’s sake, kept reminding myself it was only going to be a few months, how bad could it be, etc., and came anyway.
I’ve been here for eight years now. I have come to the conclusion that the only reason that Australia has a poor reputation overseas is because the xenophobes, although actually in a minority, are loud and pushy and so overwhelming of the rest that they are all anyone else sees.
You, StevoR, might not like to think of yourself as one of them; if so, stop bloody acting like them!
We all say stupid, bigotted shit sometimes; we don’t always engage our minds before letting our mouths/fingers run away. The difference between you and most other people is that when we are called out for saying something wrong, we apologise; but you? You double down, tell everyone criticising you that they are mistaken in the way they have interpreted what you said.
No. They aren’t. What you type here is frequently racist. If you don’t like your comments being characterised as racist, read them carefully before posting them and remove the racist bits. If you do not recognise the racist bits as being racist, and inadvertently post them, then apologise when they are pointed out, learn why they are racist and avoid the same mistake in future.
On the other hand, if you continue to defend those comments then guess what? You’ll get labelled racist. Because only racists defend racist comments. Decent people apologise for them.
You’ve been told this over, and over, and over again. People are fed up with repeating to you the reasons why you keep getting yourself into trouble.
People aren’t being douchebags to people for disagreeing with them. You are being a douchebag for failing to apologise when you hurt people. You’re hurt by the accusations? Then stop repeating the behaviour that attracts them.
Unless someone is pointing a weapon at you and threatening you with harm if you don’t post racist comments, then you have to take responsibility for the things you have typed. Stop blaming other people for their perfectly reasonable responses and grow up.
theophontes (坏蛋):
February 13th, 2013 at 4:07 am
@ Giliell
OK, granted, I do tend to bait up with marshmallows rather than smelly cheese.
(On the other hand, I do not know how long I can remain polite with this person.)
Nick Gotts (formerly KG):
February 13th, 2013 at 4:22 am
I’d say drugging someone (without their consent) is a violation akin to rape, even if that’s all you do to them. It’s also, of course, highly dangerous – people vary widely in their reaction to drugs, and may be on medication that interacts with what they are given. Mythbri, did the Nice Guy make clear at any point that this was just a fantasy and of course he’d never actually do it? I don’t get that impression from what you say, but it would make a considerable difference: people can have and enjoy fantasies that they know would be completely wrong to carry through, without harming others; although judgment in when to share such fantasies is also needed.
casus fortuitus:
February 13th, 2013 at 4:43 am
Caine:
John:
throwaway:
This article is relevant to your (apparent) interests. It’s about the negative correlation between likability and success for women (as opposed to the positive correlation for men):
evilisgood:
February 13th, 2013 at 5:13 am
My heart bursts to full. Army of Darkness is on TV, and Keythe Farley, who plays Thane Krios in Mass Effect series, liked my stupid joke on Facebook. Also we haz Girl Scout Cookies. It’s the little things.
throwaway, Preferred singular pronouns: they, them, their, it:
February 13th, 2013 at 7:09 am
Thank you for the link casus fortuitus. The article was great but the comments… dammit why must the comment sections whenever someone uses the word ‘feminism’ always fill me with rage? Among the most amusingly clueless comments were the men saying “Men, too!”
Rev. BigDumbChimp:
February 13th, 2013 at 7:16 am
Denial, it’s whats for breakfast.
If you don’t want to be called a racist, stop giving everyone reasons.
And just maybe reassess the things you are saying both intentionally and casually, it’s giving everyone these reasons I mentioned.
ChasCPeterson:
February 13th, 2013 at 7:40 am
Right on, brother! Me too!
(I’m a brain in a vat. You couldn’t tell, right?)
casus fortuitus:
February 13th, 2013 at 8:02 am
throwaway:
I know, right. It’s infuriating. I’m a Brit and probably our most liberal (in the US sense – increasingly, the UK sense too) national newspaper is probably the Guardian. It’s a veritable bastion of progressiveness and publishes lots of sensible things. It has stuff like a dedicated section for women’s issues with a lot of regular feminist contributors. For the most part (there are notable exceptions), those feminist contributions are extremely valuable and I couldn’t agree with them more, but the comments… oh gods the comments. Honestly, nothing brings out the oppressed, downtrodden men like people pointing out that society treats women unfairly. I swear, in every article about women’s issues, there are men crying “misandry”, because apparently just talking about women is oppressing men.
It’s actually depressing.
casus fortuitus:
February 13th, 2013 at 8:05 am
*sighs* And apparently I fail at tags even with the benefit of preview.
consciousness razor:
February 13th, 2013 at 8:07 am
Caine:
Seriously young. (I meant to qualify all of that with “some boys,” of course.) One of my nephews is ten. I suppose he’ really not too bad yet, but it’s already hard to get much out of him or get things to sink in, though I really don’t see him as much as I’d like anymore, so I guess I haven’t bonded as much as I did with his older brother.
Definitely. I was just venting the old spleen. Then again, it might also hint at a decent approach if you’re talking to a father: talk to them about their sons and how things are going, just as casual conversation, but especially if you notice something seems off. You can distance the subject just a little away from them personally, which could help them notice a behavioral pattern they wouldn’t (otherwise) notice about themselves. I’m sure many are willing to see their kid’s mistakes, in a way they wouldn’t be comfortable noticing about themselves. Even so, just talking about it can get them on the right track to being the right kind of influence as well as possibly changing their own behavior.
———
Mandrellian:*
That’d be a good thing, wouldn’t it? I wouldn’t be much of a dilemma for me; I can say that much.
*For some reason, I keep reading your ‘nym as “Mandalorian,” probably because I’m a nerd.
———
StevoRacist:
Define “a handful.” Is it more than five or thereabouts? Because at this point, you’re easily a couple orders of magnitude more ridiculous than that, if we just go by the number of comments and don’t even start to consider their content (which is actually the only thing that’d be relevant).
Besides, yes, in fact I could judge
youwhat you have said based on just one comment.I don’t give a rat’s ass who you are. You could be the Queen of fucking England for all I care. I can read what you say. You apparently cannot, or else you cannot be honest about it.
I can certainly misinterpret things I read. But when you admit you’ve made mistakes, because of being drunk or tired or whatever-the-fuck, that’s not a fucking misinterpretation according to you, you dishonest fucking asshole. So get your fucking story straight or realize that you’re still that same bigoted shithead who apparently has some problems coming to terms with that fact.
Down the rabbit hole we go again. If you ever take a break from navel-gazing, feel free to stop commenting at any time. I’m just a figment of your imagination anyway, so there’s no use. You clearly realize that now. The only thing that counts is you, because you’re the fucking Primary Source™ of all the information You, Whoever The Fuck You Are™, would ever need to know, aren’t you? Who gives a fuck about listening to other people or thinking about their perspectives on things, am I right?
Amphiox:
February 13th, 2013 at 8:23 am
StuffyRacist still barfing all over the place, I see.
Pretty much showing that the prior claim of “disavowing” earlier statements is just another pitiful lie.
When one “disavows” something in good faith, one does not continue to pugnaciously defend those statements, and one does not continue to make new statements that are essentially the same. All of which the StuffyRacist continues to do.
Racist is as Racist says. ONE comment in proper context is enough to judge.
The only thing the StuffyRacist has consistently “disavowed” is attempting to grow as a humane individual.
Pathetic.
casus fortuitus:
February 13th, 2013 at 8:31 am
Point of order!
consciousness razor:
There’s no Queen of England, so StevoR can’t be such a person. He could be the Queen of the fucking United Kingdom, though. :)
casus fortuitus:
February 13th, 2013 at 8:35 am
(That’s in addition to being a racist douche, of course.)
The Mellow Monkey:
February 13th, 2013 at 8:53 am
theophontes, thank you for that link. This part of it on the second page really jumped out at me:
It’s such obvious symbolism now that I’ve read it described that way. How does a patriarchal society ensure it has a steady supply of willing fodder for the battlefields? By enshrining male sacrifice in its very religion. Facing violent death becomes something admirable and masculine.
Have a Balloon:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:05 am
casus fortuitous
The Guardian comments section is depressing, true, but on occasion I find there is hope. They continue to print articles on feminism – a lot of them – so it’s good to see that the poor reception doesn’t stop the issues being aired. There was a time when I could never read any article from the Guardian about rape, because the comments would immediately focus on false accusations and victim-blaming and what-about-the-men. But more recently I have seen a turnaround, especially with child sexual abuse reports, with more people contradicting rape culture and calling out the harmful myths that get repeated. It was also great to see the almost universal condemnation of that transphobic dreck they published last month. But yeah, once you get to wider feminist issues the response is pretty much entirely “Dear Muslima”. I’ve got to the stage where I read an article about an issue that affects women, and my first reaction is to think “oh no! the author didn’t talk about how the issue affects men too sometimes, and that not all men are like that! now nobody will pay attention to the message!”
Having a rant because I just watched a debate about the gay marriage laws in the UK that might finally be happening, and pretty much the entire discussion got redirected to talking about how important it is that no religious people anywhere are offended. Most of the airtime was given over to a couple of bigots who went on about how there are more important things to talk about, and nobody really cares about gay marriage anyway, and you already have civil partnerships, and what about the 300% of teachers who in a recent poll said they would get executed by their place of worship if they dared to talk to their students about homosexuality being a thing.
casus fortuitus:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:28 am
Have a Balloon
Yeah, it’s fair to say that articles specifically about rape, or articles that are themselves manifestly abusive, tend to attract a decent sort of commenter. I’m hoping that’s a sign of changing attitudes to feminist arguments; (older) friends of mine have said that many of the points being made wouldn’t have been published ten years ago. So maybe there’s hope.
I’ll also second you on the same-sex marriage* thing. The actual legislation is so careful to protect religious interests from having to deal with the issue if they don’t want to that I don’t see how anyone can reasonably object. So by process of elimination, religious objections are manifestly unreasonable. Also unreasonable to say that there are more important things to discuss: more important than equality before the law?! And I’m sure it’s almost exclusively straight people running that “argument”. As a gay person, I’m so grateful that totally disinterested parties deign to tell me that my legal rights are less important than, for example, gutting public services.
* I have a problem with same-sex marriage being cast as “gay marriage”. “Gay” for me is a sexual orientation, and isn’t just two people of the same gender being in a sexual / romantic relationship. Would two bi women getting married be a gay marriage? I don’t think so, and I think it disappears bi people to talk of gay and straight marriage. I realise this might be quite an idiosyncratic take on it, though.
Tony the Queer Shoop (now with 30% more melanin):
February 13th, 2013 at 9:43 am
I sit here scratching my head, completely puzzled as to why SteveoR appears so desperate to gain the approval of people who clearly do not like him. Despite his protestations to the contrary, he continues saying racist shit, whether it is “melanin enriched” or talking about those high falutin’ “Western values”. His lack of self awareness is staggering and his desperation to endear himself to the commentariat is pathetic.
Tony the Queer Shoop (now with 30% more melanin):
February 13th, 2013 at 9:48 am
Casus:
I see where you’re coming from re: gay marriage.
It also seems to me that ‘gay’ is often meant to refer to men, and ‘lesbian’ to women (GLBTQ). I prefer to call it marriage equality, so no one along the sexual orientation spectrum is left out.
Beatrice:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:52 am
Tony,
I started using marriage equality after people mocked the term gay marriage by referring to gay driving, gay eating, gay…. you get the picture. Marriage is marriage.
casus fortuitus:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:56 am
Tony:
Yeah, there’s that, too. In the UK, the government department responsible for the legislation frames it as “equal marriage”, so you’re in good company on that one. :)
dysomniak, darwinian socialist:
February 13th, 2013 at 10:03 am
StevoR – How about instead of whining about your comment from “years ago” being used against you, you address the racist shit you’ve said in the last few weeks? Because really all that “I was a different person then” shit rings pretty fucking hollow when you are still saying the same kind of bullshit.
And yeah, the “misinterpretation” bullshit doesn’t fly either. As many other people have pointed out when the entire room “misinterprets” you (and don’t give many any of that “a few commenters” shit either, unless you can point to someone who doesn’t think you’re a fucking racist), the problem is almost certainly on your end.
Nepenthe:
February 13th, 2013 at 10:50 am
@Xanthë 561 and Tigger_the_Wing 562
I don’t know. I’m stumbling over the concept of a coherent self that one can be true to.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 13th, 2013 at 10:51 am
Our Wedding Song
The collective known as cdza a senior living home and performs the wedding songs of four different couples while each couple dances and cutaways to their reminiscing about their relationship.
It is very touching. If you have ten minutes, watch it.
SallyStrange: Brigadier General. Yes, of THAT Brigade.:
February 13th, 2013 at 11:06 am
Hi Tony! Yeah, I’ll definitely accept a stiff drink. I’ve been feeling pretty stressed out lately.
CICELY!
Xanthë!
Cheerful news: just after I opined that I thought that universal childcare/pre-school would be a useful policy to decrease gender disparities in the workplace and government, Obama announces that he’s calling for universal pre-school! That’s good news, as is his forceful language about climate change (I’m still pessimistic but hey, I’ll take what I can get).
Dhorvath, OM:
February 13th, 2013 at 11:07 am
Nepenthe,
I find much of myself in that statement.
cicely (Dancing on Monday's grave.):
February 13th, 2013 at 11:15 am
StevoR: It’s true that we don’t know you. How can we? We only know what of “you” that you’ve put up here on display. It’s what we have to judge you by.
Many here are not impressed by what they see.
At least, not favorably.
-
SallyStrange: You may or may not Have Mail; last night I sent an email in what I think is your direction.
-
Tony the Queer Shoop (now with 30% more melanin):
February 13th, 2013 at 11:18 am
SallyStrange:
Bottoms up!
Btw, how does universal preschool aid in reducing gender disparities in the workplace?I left that in because as I finished typing it out, the lightbulb moment occured (self: universal preschool means more women will be able to return to the workforce sooner, as they won’t have to stay at home and care for the little ones). It took me a second.
SallyStrange: Brigadier General. Yes, of THAT Brigade.:
February 13th, 2013 at 11:28 am
Got it, Cicely. :)
cicely (Dancing on Monday's grave.):
February 13th, 2013 at 11:48 am
SallyStrange: Won’t be be able to check for any return-fire until this evening (not allowed to mess with email at work). Good to know that I have the right address, though!
:)
-
andr0idthepoet:
February 13th, 2013 at 12:03 pm
Hello folks. I haven’t made a good impression so far but a commenter, John Morales, suggested I join this thread in order to learn the ropes.
I work in education in the UK and, although not, perhaps, an intellectual high-flyer, I am well-educated and a decent person at heart. I am open to criticism and willing to have my prejudices challenged!
So, gender disparity in the workplace seems a good place to begin! I’m one of two male teachers in an English department comprising 12 teachers, and the only one with an English degree. I think this disparity is unhelpful for pupils who, arguably, need positive male role models. Any thoughts?
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 12:08 pm
StevoRacist:
A handful of comments? Please, you never shut up.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 13th, 2013 at 12:20 pm
I think PZ should earmark one thread just for the use of lee coye and call it lee coye’s play pen.
broboxley OT:
February 13th, 2013 at 12:27 pm
just a quick flyby, saw this link to the great white north
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Mounties+raped+abused+aboriginal+girls+rights+watchdog/7957561/story.html
Tony the Queer Shoop (now with 30% more melanin):
February 13th, 2013 at 12:28 pm
@607:
I haven’t read any of your comments, but I do suggest you read up on the nature of the Thunderdome if you have not done so already. This area is unmoderated and you may be taken by surprise at the way people sometimes engage others.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 12:45 pm
Theophontes:
Indeed. Jack Holland addresses matriarchies in Misogyny. Mostly what is addressed is that there’s extremely little evidence for any matriarchal society, and what evidence there might be is open to interpretation, as these societies were supposedly before any record keeping or written history. There is evidence that in pre-Classical culture, there was a form of matriarchy in Celtic culture, but it’s of the type you spoke about, where there was a more balanced relationship between women and men.
All that said, the fear of “stomp on the men!” matriarchies started early in history, the Greek obsession with Amazons started with Herodotus in the 5th century. The Athenians were particularly obsessed with the concept of Amazons.
Amphiox:
February 13th, 2013 at 12:47 pm
re @607;
What do you think is the cause, at root, of the gender disparity that you have observed?
mythbri:
February 13th, 2013 at 12:50 pm
@Nick Gotts #579
This Nice Guy posted this probably thinking it was typical of his normal status updates (he tries to be “funny” or “quirky” with those, sometimes succeeding, sometimes – as in this case – failing). I’m not sure I’d even call it a fantasy in the sense that he might have thought “I’d like to try this with a [willing] person at some point”, though of course there’s no way for me to be sure about that.
In thinking more about it (it happened the day before yesterday), the subtext, conscious or not, of what he was saying is even more disturbing than I’d originally thought, too. The subtext is power, domination, and “mercy”. “Mercy” in the sense that power and domination are assumed. That is the “natural state” of things. The “mercy” part comes in because things that are culturally understood as precursors to a sexual assault or rape (drugging someone’s drink and asserting control over them while they’re unconscious) turn out to be precursors to something “positive” (in this case, Disneyland).
He used the word “kind”. Like it’s somehow inevitable that a woman would be drugged and kidnapped, her agency taken away, and the end result of it was something “good” instead of bad. It also kind of takees the idea of “rape as a compliment” and turns it into “drugging and kidnapping is a gift,” which is epicly disturbing.
I don’t understand what he was going for, here. I imagine that if I had challenged him further on what he said, he would have characterized it as a joke and gotten even more defensive, wondering why I (and others) were making such a big deal out of a “harmless” FB status update.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
February 13th, 2013 at 1:00 pm
andr0idthepoet
Taking the chance that you are an honest interlocutor, yes the gender disparity in teaching is part of the general problem regarding women in the workplace, but the reasons have nothing to do with ‘positive male role models’ per se. Rather, the problems, in brief, are as follows (Ordered for convenience, not importance):
1)Teaching is one of the few professional roles which is currently considered acceptable for women to engage in, leading women who might have preferred a different career to be driven into teaching instead by various social forces.
2)The association of teaching being an appropriate job for women, due to the force of misogyny in society, conversely strongly discourages male teachers.
3) This is given added force by the deliberate tendency to pay teachers sub-family wages, which combines with the social expectation of ‘man as breadwinner’ to drive men away from teaching and further entrench the economic disenfranchisement of women.
4) All of these factors negatively affects teaching quality, because women end up teachers who’d be better suited to be lawyers, engineers, or what have you, while men who ought to be teaching and would be quite good at it don’t.
FWIW, I’m a school custodian in the U.S., and I’m one of 5 male staff, only one of whom is a teacher.
andr0idthepoet:
February 13th, 2013 at 1:11 pm
@611 Thanks, Tony.
broboxley OT:
February 13th, 2013 at 1:15 pm
Caine 612 http://www.iroquoisdemocracy.pdx.edu/html/iroquoiswoman.htm not exactly a matriarchy, but a little more equal of course Goldberg rejects http://www.debunker.com/texts/iroquois.html with all of his cites circa late 19th and early 20th century obervations. At these time colonialism had made large imprints on the eastern tribes.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 1:17 pm
Can’t say what it’s like in the UK, but here in the U.S., reading books, being intellectual and teaching are still seen as feminine pursuits, not “properly” masculine. There’s another problem with men who teach too, outlined in Guyland:
I think more male teachers (not coaches) would be a plus, particularly in the lower grades, not university level, if we’re talking role models. However, I think men who teach need to be very mindful of what type of role model they are supplying – if they display conscious or unconscious sexism, say, then that’s not the best model, eh?
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 1:25 pm
Broboxley:
That’s the point, though. These dominant matriarchies, where women had all the power and men were subjugated, simply didn’t (and don’t) exist, except in the imaginations of men. It’s an abiding fear men have though, because they are absolutely sure if women got in the power seat, they’d do the same exact things men have done.
andr0idthepoet:
February 13th, 2013 at 1:29 pm
@613 That’s a good question. When I trained to be a teacher, some 16 years ago, my peers were predominantly female. I don’t know if this has always been the case. The teaching profession certainly seems to have become attractive to female candidates – although with the current government’s plans to convert state schools to ‘academies’ (some of which are inflexible regarding child-care arrangements) – I wonder if this will continue to be the case.
In most of the schools in which I’ve taught, however, most senior leadership teams have been predominantly male. There is a similar imbalance in the primary sector.
Some, perhaps, may argue that this is not an imbalance but the way things should be. I’m not convinced!
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 1:34 pm
andr0idthepoet, a protip: use people’s nyms when replying, threads get very long here, and scrolling all over the place to see who and what you’re responding to is a pain in the neck. Also, quoting what you are responding to is best.
If you don’t know how to quote, use:
<blockquote>Place Text Here</blockquote>
andr0idthepoet:
February 13th, 2013 at 1:36 pm
@615 I really appreciate that comment because it’s often difficult to see the bigger picture when dealing with (or trying to deal with, in my case) the day to day demands of my professional life. You’ve given me much food for thought, thanks.
andr0idthepoet:
February 13th, 2013 at 1:43 pm
Caine, brigade de garces
Thanks! I’m sure I’ll get the hang of this!
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 1:47 pm
andr0idthepoet:
It won’t take long, and ‘Caine’ is just fine. If you use Firefox, you can get a nifty text formatting toolbar: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/text-formatting-toolbar/ – just make sure to set it to HTML.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 2:20 pm
CR:
That’s a good tactic, thank you. Some things are seriously disturbing me as I continue reading Guyland. One in particular is that rape (via objects) or other assault involving sexual humiliation has become a standard element of initiation rites and hazing. These rapes and assaults aren’t likely to be spoken about or reported (minus a few exceptions), which means the amount of young men who have been raped and assaulted is much higher than we think it is.
Tony the Queer Shoop (now with 30% more melanin):
February 13th, 2013 at 2:38 pm
Dalillama:
Now you have me interested in reading up on gender disparity within teaching.
cm's changeable moniker:
February 13th, 2013 at 4:29 pm
@consciousness razor, you’re right: my N=6 and they’re not American–bad reading on my part. Sorry. But I’d still claim they’re not unrepresentative of Brits …
Kimmel:
It is true; they are being examined:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/blighty/2012/10/british-society
And from the linked story:
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21565238-why-young-britons-have-turned-responsible-continent-generation
I’m not usually Panglossian, but with three Gen-Zs to raise, this gives me hope. ;-)
cm's changeable moniker:
February 13th, 2013 at 5:06 pm
I did find one bit of Kimmel that cheered me up, though:
.us is the Internet country code top-level domain (ccTLD) for the United States. {com,net,org} were never, as far as I can tell, restricted to Americans. (And even I own a .net domain. Feel the power of my genericity! I name, mark, and note you all!!1!)
Honestly, is there some sort of narrative-sociology privilege that obviates the need to fact-check?
I keed, I keed. ;-)
cm's changeable moniker:
February 13th, 2013 at 6:09 pm
It’s no secret that I’m a big fan of organs. Now YouTube recommends them to me.
But, holy crap! This, it’s … just too big:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qh25I6Br9qU#t=48s
b. - Order of Lagomorpha:
February 13th, 2013 at 6:24 pm
Janine spake thusly:
May I second that motion with the request that it’s called the Coye Pond? (Sorry, I was torn between a bad pun and requesting it be called The Chum Bucket. The pun won out as they are wont to do.)
cm's changeable moniker:
February 13th, 2013 at 6:24 pm
Oh my! YouTube, what are you suggesting?
Demonstration of the 64-foot Contra Trombone
I should probably log off.
keresthanatos:
February 13th, 2013 at 7:20 pm
Just watched the post about the Municipal Organ……128 ft stops……..I wonder what type of engineering had to be done to the building to allow it to stand that amount of sound pressure. Thanks for the link CM.
Have a Balloon:
February 13th, 2013 at 7:29 pm
casus fortuitous, Tony, Beatrice
Re. Gay marriage – you’re right, I didn’t think of it like that. Same sex marriage is a much better term. I find that during the debate on SSM that anyone who wasn’t a gay male tended to be erased. The number of people who would argue that same sex marriage wasn’t ‘real marriage’ because neither partner could ever give birth to their own child was…sad. It completely erased lesbians. Also infertile people, but they always seemed to try and weasel out of that one.
I find bisexual people don’t so much get erased as misrepresented. Another really common ‘argument’ was “what about a bisexual woman who wants to marry a man and a woman?” o.0
consciousness razor:
February 13th, 2013 at 8:13 pm
I wouldn’t think of that as a new phenomenon, but I’m not sure if “has become” is supposed to imply that. For me, it was two guys from my school; and it was basically like hazing, just not for an organized group of some kind. I guess that’s called “bullying.” I also went through ‘real’ hazing in college, but it wasn’t even approaching anything like that, though I heard plenty of stories from much older alumni….
Mine never was. I threatened them with it if they wouldn’t stop tormenting me about it, which did shut them up, and it didn’t happen again (not to me). But I regret that I didn’t tell anyone.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 8:25 pm
Have A Balloon:
It’s highly offensive to childfree people as well. Over the years, I’ve encountered a whole lot of people who feel that childfree people shouldn’t be allowed to marry either.
Bisexual people get erased all the time, by all sides. It’s not misrepresentation as much as it is convenient to use us for a ‘slippery slope’ argument. Some bisexual people are poly, others aren’t, but that goes for all people.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 8:26 pm
CR:
I’m glad you were able to stop it, but very sorry it ever happened in the first place.
consciousness razor:
February 13th, 2013 at 8:26 pm
Now it’s time for some subcontrabass jazz flute.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 8:28 pm
Watched Searching for Sugar Man and Pina tonight, both very good.
Have a Balloon:
February 13th, 2013 at 8:53 pm
Caine
Yes, I expressed myself badly. Bisexual people get erased all the time, I agree. It’s just in my experience that I see bisexuality mentioned more frequently than lesbianism in the context of SSM, used as a slippery slope. But maybe that’s just the availability heuristic.
Seriously? I thought the whole ‘marriage is only for children’ thing was used to oppose same-sex marriage, but people find stupid reasons why it’s still ok for childfree people to get and stay married. Denying it to anyone without children is incredibly awful, but I suppose at least it’s consistent.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:00 pm
Have A Balloon:
Yep. There are a lot of people who seem to think that “if you aren’t going to have children, what could you possibly need to marry for? Why would you want to?” There are a lot of idiots out there.
Have a Balloon:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:05 pm
o.0
The Mellow Monkey:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:09 pm
People say all kinds of gloriously dumb and offensive things to childfree people. Here’s a childfree bingo card for a sampler.
For some strange reason, encountering people who don’t want children seems to turn certain people into huge assholes.
b. - Order of Lagomorpha:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:11 pm
@ Have A Balloon
Yes, definitely. My husband and I married when I was 40 and we both got inundated with, “Weeeellll…why bother? You’re not likely to have kids at your age.”* I realize that anecdote doesn’t equal evidence but within my personal n=1 sample, yes, it does happen.
*Liberally interspersed with, “Wait, you’re not gay??!?” and “It’s about damned time you finally settled down.” Luckily, my family is relatively sane, so we only got hit by his side. And kindly do not get me started on doctors and nurses who, when you’re experiencing a miscarriage at 40 (and 3 more at 41), going on about, “You really should’ve had kids sooner. This is what happens.” Gosh. Gee. Thanks for the sympathy and understanding. Next life, I’ll be sure to pop kids out all over, regardless of, you know, being in love with and having a stable relationship with the person that fathers them. Yeah.
theophontes (坏蛋):
February 13th, 2013 at 9:12 pm
@ The Mellow Monkey
I was going to make some additional points about matriarchal society, but Caine beat me to it. Evidence, in the form of all manner of artifacts, indicates a universal reverence for the Earth Mother. (Fairly typical example: Venus von Willendorf)However, in terms of the actual stories and religious ceremonies etc we know relatively little. In Crete, it appears they even had a triune Goddess (Mother,Father and Child). If you are looking for more reading matter in this vein, we have a collection on the Pharynguwiki.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:17 pm
MM:
I’ve heard every single one of those, more times than I can count, and many more to boot.
theophontes (坏蛋):
February 13th, 2013 at 9:18 pm
@ Caine
Notice that this is often trotted out as an argument against marriage equality by the religious right. They have such a fixed idea of how society is cobbled together, these obvious points – even in just heterosexual marriage – whizz right past them. Reality is not their strong card.
mythbri:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:19 pm
Wow!
I almost got blackout bingo on Mellow Monkey’s childfree bingo card, and I’m only 28. Of course, I was raised Mormon, so…
consciousness razor:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:26 pm
I suppose a rational case could be made* that even though I don’t want children, I should want to get married so that I wouldn’t be guilty of so much fornicating. If I’m going to hell for eternity, it seems like it’d be more interesting to hang out with all the heretics and blasphemers, so I try to avoid lesser offenses as much as possible.
*Not intended to be a factual statement.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:29 pm
CR:
Works for me.
The Mellow Monkey:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:32 pm
The “genetic immortality” one cracks me up. Yes, my genetic input will by slightly more than half in my children–people I can’t guarantee are going to reproduce themselves–and it will be reduced further with every generation so that it’s entirely possible to have thousands of descendants and not have a single gene surviving, but this is going to give me “genetic immortality.”
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:36 pm
MM:
That one, the whole “what about your legacy!?” thing always causes a near fatal eyeroll. I’ve told people “think for a minute. Think about every single person, throughout history. Every. Single. One. Pick any one, say, from the 4th century, and show me their legacy.”
Esteleth, Ficus Putsch Knits:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:44 pm
The “legacy” thing peeves me.
Let’s assume for the sake of argument that I stay in science – maybe get a professorship somewhere. My legacy would be (1) my students and (2) any scientific progress I make.
Alternatively, let’s say I switch fields and go into nursing. My legacy would be every patient I tended.
Not knocking children-as-legacy, but, uh.
Also, the “children are your legacy” carries a few whiffs of “children are obliged to do what their parents want with their lives and be the people their parents want them to be.”
Esteleth, Ficus Putsch Knits:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:47 pm
I mean, shit. If I think about my own early life, one of the most important figures in my early life was my fifth-grade teacher.
He died when I was in high school. I clipped the obit out of the paper. He and his wife had no children. And yet, when I went to his funeral, I was surrounded by his children.
myeck waters:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:47 pm
b. – Order of Lagomorpha #630
Damn, that would be great. Then whenever he does that thing about not backing up his claims, or refusing to respond to others’ points, we can all say, “Come on, don’t be coye!”*
*sadly, I actually say this when I pass the koi pond at our local Chinese joint.
Have a Balloon:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:47 pm
Wow. I knew that childfree people faced a lot of flack for not having children (and thanks to Pharyngula for teaching me that there is a difference between childfree and childless!), but this is the first time I’ve heard of them actually being told they shouldn’t get married. I have always thought of the main purpose of marriage as a way to designate somebody who isn’t related to you as your official next-of-kin. It’s adding someone to your family*.
In fact, I’m often surprised by how many people in my generation are still following the marriage-kids script. Several of my friends have recently got married, and I felt a bit sorry for them because I figured they’d be being pressured into having kids, but I know they are really keen to reach the tops of their careers. They never struck me as children people. But as soon as they get married it’s like something goes click!
Of course, maybe they always wanted kids and I just didn’t know them as well as I thought :)
*This, by the way, is the main reason I’m so eager for civil partnerships to be extended to heterosexual couples. I couldn’t ever stomach the idea of a marriage because of all the patriarchal baggage, but I wouldn’t be comfortable just co-habiting, especially if there were things like a shared mortgage or one of us had an illness, because if things change then you have no rights and no official relationship to your partner.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:47 pm
Esteleth:
Yes, very much. One time, when I was getting hit with the “children as legacy” business by this woman, I asked her “what if your child turns out to be a serial killer? What will your legacy be?” She shut up, left, and has never spoken to me again.
The Mellow Monkey:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:50 pm
And if your kid does something that makes them go down in history or otherwise establishes them as an incredibly influential person, guess what?
That’s not your legacy.
So cut out the middle man (er…kid?) and do whatever notable thing you think needs doing yourself.
ChasCPeterson:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:51 pm
?
Female-gendered objects of worship ≠ matriarchal society.
on the other hand, from the organismal rather than genetic viewpoint, every single one of your ancestors reproduced successfully; and I mean back beyond fish-ancestors to worm-ancestors and unicellular-flagellate ancestors etc. If you don’t reproduce, whatever, but it’s the end of a very long chain, in every case.
consciousness razor:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:55 pm
Honestly, I don’t even want that, but seriously people: what else could immortality be if it isn’t not dying? Plus, as you both said, that’s not how genetics works either…. It’s not looking good so far, even as a concept.
The ‘family name’ thing is pretty much the same shit. Just about all of my siblings and cousins in my giant fucking family have already taken care of that, so I guess I’ll have to find something else for my entire life to be about. You know, if that sort of thing is allowed.
It’s just fucking weird that people care who you marry or if you do anyway. Is there some reason why it’s their fucking business and not mine?
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:55 pm
Chas:
True, and it’s an important point. It’s why speculation about possible matriarchies remains speculation. In many cases, it’s not even known what the feelings were about female-gendered statues or figures.
Have a Balloon:
February 13th, 2013 at 10:08 pm
Exhibit A: Catholicism.
The Mellow Monkey:
February 13th, 2013 at 10:11 pm
Years ago, I remember reading an article claiming that they were definitely not items of worship. They were fashion dolls.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 10:18 pm
MM:
Heh. I suppose that’s a theory. Of sorts. I suspect most of them had to do with fertility, whether of people or the land, or both.
theophontes (坏蛋):
February 13th, 2013 at 10:19 pm
@ Chas
Caine beat me to it again. Unfortunately we do not have any written records of those times and there is a measure of conjecture in what people of those times believed. What we can do is look at more recent similar artifacts and consider the reverence by which these feminine forms are held. We can also more easily plot the rise of patriarchal forms of worship and the corresponding dying out of the sacred feminine and its artifacts.
For clarity: After much searching I have not been able to come up with convincing evidence for a full blown matriarchy, now or in the past. The closest contemporary examples I can think of are the Musuo and some Dai communities in South Western China. There are also some communities in India that have matriarchal tendencies.
John Morales:
February 13th, 2013 at 10:25 pm
We’re all familiar with Venus figurines, no?
SallyStrange: Brigadier General. Yes, of THAT Brigade.:
February 13th, 2013 at 10:28 pm
At this point, statistically speaking, I share 25% of my genes with 3 individuals in the next generation, which is like having 1.5 children of my own (except that, being their aunt, I’m not responsible for buying their diapers and whatnot), so I figure I’m all set. Aunthood FTW!
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 10:28 pm
Theophontes:
This could well be utterly mistaken as well, though. Have A Balloon brought up a good case – the Virgin Mary. In Misogyny: The World’s Oldest Prejudice, Jack Holland devotes considerable time to the subject of Mary. When the Catholic church made certain changes to cover their doctrinal asses, Mary became much more important than was ever intended. The twists and turns Mary took through different time periods are fascinating, as is how she came to be one of the primary pillars of misogyny. Thousands of years from now, if the ruins of a cathedral were dug up, and one of the ubiquitous statues of Mary found, the immediate speculation would be most interesting and most likely wrong without any outside sources as to what the statue was all about.
theophontes (坏蛋):
February 13th, 2013 at 10:30 pm
@ MM
(I trust it is OK to use your initials?)
We actually know a fair bit about such artifacts, because aspects of the underlying religions are still very much alive. There still is worship of matrilineal ancestors in parts of Africa. This Belly Mask is the perfect aid to getting pregnant.
consciousness razor:
February 13th, 2013 at 10:31 pm
I would say so. You want some powerful, hidden agent to do things for you or to stop doing bad things to you. Probably quite a few of them, some of whom happen to be female. (You think so, at least; but they don’t exist, either because they’re mythical beings or dead ancestors.) The fact that the agent’s female may even be very significant to you; and you may think she’s very, very powerful. But that’s not what a matriarchal or egalitarian society is. Those tend to involve what happens to actual beings with actual powers.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 10:33 pm
John:
Yes. Once again, those are pre-history. They are not evidence of matriarchies. They’re evidence that artists then were attracted to the female form, just like artists now. That’s not saying much.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 10:37 pm
Theophontes:
Worship is not a sign of a matriarchy, though. Again, Virgin Mary. Lot of people worship her, there have been cults built from worshipping her. That doesn’t make the Catholic church a matriarchal institution.
mythbri:
February 13th, 2013 at 10:45 pm
Has there been research done on types of deity across cultures, from this perspective?
Depending on the society, you can see examples of male gods being worshipped as “characters” or “personalities”, where female gods are worshipped as attributes.
Virgin Mary definitely fits the bill, as do most of the women who are lucky enough to be mentioned by name in the Bible.
“Virgin” being a major clue – that’s an attribute, or state of being. It doesn’t define someone as a person.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 10:49 pm
Mythbri:
Yes. It’s telling that Mary is more known as The Virgin Mother than Mary.
consciousness razor:
February 13th, 2013 at 10:49 pm
Indeed, the whole venerating her for being a “sinless” virgin thing should be a pretty obvious sign. You can “worship” her and think that’s a good thing, that you have a positive attitude toward women for whatever bullshit superstitious reason you want. But it can still be really fucking sexist.
theophontes (坏蛋):
February 13th, 2013 at 10:50 pm
@ Caine
It is very hard to kill off religion and superstition. The old religions simply morph into forms acceptable to the new. Much of the early converts to xtianity (we discussed this recently wrt Byzantiums headlong scramble for converts) were very shallow in their xtian beliefs, but carried with them all their old ways.
There would needs be some speculation, but it is not quite like this. In such an analogy one must allow that there would still be many aspects of the old religion extant, and many other forms of clues too. Though there is conjecture, the liabilities of this are counterbalanced by a great deal of meticulousness and hard work on the part of historians.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 11:00 pm
CR:
It’s terribly sexist. There’s a reason most of the statues of Mary (as well as most depictions) have her firmly trodding on a snake. People have always known she’s actually stomping a penis, symbolically putting the kibosh on sex in general, let alone bad sex.
Have a Balloon:
February 13th, 2013 at 11:00 pm
There was an MRA on Avicenna’s blog the other day claiming that India was a great place for women because they had female deities.
glodson:
February 13th, 2013 at 11:08 pm
I thought the art was more a function of an association. As we started to see the beginnings of agrarian cultures, moving away from the hunter-gather and nomadic lifestyles, it was largely the men that hunted while the women would do the early farming. Women already gave birth, and now they were producing the crops. This created the idea that the women were a source of life. Hence, these society produced earth goddesses and fertility goddesses.
Of course, as far as I know, they weren’t matriarchal. Some might have had priestesses, but even then, I do believe that these when we really got started with the whole farming then, societies were mostly egalitarian. But as the men moved into the farming sphere, the roles for women changed. Especially in terms of leadership. Any semblance of equality was removed. We still have the Earth Goddesses and Fertility Goddesses, but soon we start to see Gods invading those spaces.
At least, that’s always been how I understood it. The existence of the Earth Goddesses is more a clue as to would often tend the early crops as we transitioned into a truly agrarian society, but not evidence of a matriarchal society. Sorry to jump in like that.
theophontes (坏蛋):
February 13th, 2013 at 11:09 pm
For a proponent of the matriarchal nature of early human societies, I suggest checking out Robert Graves (see link above to Pharynguwiki). Though his ideas are found contentious by some, his writings are nevertheless fascinating and detailed.
…
Mrs Snake is back!!! (Now where is SGBM?)
glodson:
February 13th, 2013 at 11:17 pm
I think I remember seeing that. It is amazing how some people will take something like that and stretch it in order for their narrative to make sense.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 11:17 pm
Glodson:
Yes. There’s simply no evidence there were matriarchal societies, no matter how much some people wish to believe so. For those who claim figurines are evidence of such, it’s wishful thinking. We simply don’t have the evidence to point to any society in which women held the power in society.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
February 13th, 2013 at 11:21 pm
In many of those societies, the story of women giving birth is that they were just the fertile grounds and the men planted their seeds. Man, active: women, passive.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 11:26 pm
Janine:
That’s a belief that lasted a long time. Classical Greeks believed that an infant was “complete” in the sperm, the woman was only needed for nutritive purposes.
glodson:
February 13th, 2013 at 11:27 pm
@ Caine: Part of the problem is that I do believe these figures tend to date back to the Neolithic period, at latest. Making them a part of prehistory.
So, whatever was there before, evidence is murky at best, was definitely replaced by the time we see major societies form. Which did tend to shift the power heavily into the hands of the men in those societies.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 11:31 pm
Glodson:
Yes, I know. I’ve mentioned that several times upthread, along with others. As much as people might wish to believe matriarchal societies existed, there’s simply no evidence to that effect. Now there’s a very long history of men fearing matriarchies (see #612), but that’s a whole ‘nother thing.
erikthebassist:
February 13th, 2013 at 11:36 pm
holy hell in a hand basket I just lifted my head up from the epic “I am asked a question about commenting” thread. I have never been more convinced that libertarianism is the real culprit, and that a lot of people confuse free thought with freedom to believe whatever the fuck I think fits my world view.
erikthebassist:
February 13th, 2013 at 11:39 pm
1500 comments and not a hint that lee coye has even questioned himself once. Dunning-Kruger indeed.
glodson:
February 13th, 2013 at 11:40 pm
Sorry, tunnel visioned and my tendency for pedantry got me.
Even if there existed widespread tendencies towards a matriarchal society, they would have been supplanted long ago.
However, we can try to look at modern hunter-gather societies in order to make a reasonable guess what structures such societies might have had in the past. It isn’t prefect, but it is a start. I’ve been trying to dig up some information on these modern societies. I recall reading they were largely egalitarian… but that means nothing really as I can’t even remember this entire thread.
So far, anything good has been behind a pay-wall, and the bad is too absurd to post. I fail at google.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 13th, 2013 at 11:46 pm
Glodson:
Again, no evidence of matriarchal societies. As I said earlier, early Celtic society had an *almost* egalitarian thing going, where women had many of the same rights and benefits of men, but not all.
glodson:
February 13th, 2013 at 11:50 pm
Caine: That’s kind of my point.
At best, we have some evidence that in those societies, men and women were mostly equal. No matriarchy, no patriarchy. Some of the earliest religious leaders might have been women, but that doesn’t mean that women ran society.
Maybe this is an indication it just time for bed.
chigau (違う):
February 13th, 2013 at 11:51 pm
gatherer-hunter
theophontes (坏蛋):
February 13th, 2013 at 11:51 pm
@ glodson
We can also look towards our closest ape cousins. Chimps tend to MRA’s whereas bonobos are matriarchal. If you want to look into this further, check out the work of Frans de Waal, who has done many decades of research into our closest cousins. It is quite incredible how many of the behavioural trates we arrogantly assume to be unique to humans, are not.
glodson:
February 13th, 2013 at 11:58 pm
@ Theophontes
I had an anthropology professor point that out to our class, a few years ago. He did pointed out that the chimps were much more violent while the bonobos are much more about tons of sex. This is really, really, really simplifying it.
Hell, he had us read “Evolution’s Rainbows” by Joan Roughgarden. It was an interesting book, about sex and gender in the animal kingdom. I know I found out that the animal kingdom was far more diverse than I had thought. An interesting read.
Also, it was the first time I ran into Evolutionary Psychology. It… was a bit shocking.
theophontes (坏蛋):
February 13th, 2013 at 11:59 pm
I just have to post this… Frans de Waal: Moral behaviour in animals.
consciousness razor:
February 14th, 2013 at 12:07 am
We really don’t know what things were like.
For one thing, “farming” could certainly include tending livestock, not just growing crops. It’s possible that hunting and farming would both take a lot of time to do much good for a fairly large population, so why would you try to do each half-assed? If you’re going to roam about, hunting or following herds wherever they go, it makes things a whole lot more difficult than they really need to be if another part of your group were supposed to stay put and farm a particular a piece of land. Are you really going to make these constant trips all the way back home with your rotten meat, then leave again just so you can hope to find that herd again?
It’s also not very convincing that they’d make such an association. We’re assuming the men (or hunters) were also thought of as a “source of life,” to use your phrase, because they were bringing home the bacon not just out having a good time with some beers, so it doesn’t make it clear what if anything is supposed to be different or special about the women (or farmers).
Well, as you settle down and get a larger population, you’ll need a little more “leadership,” but that applies to everyone. You get a head honcho and lots of underlings, because there’s lots of work to do just to keep the whole operation organized. It’s not obvious what the arbitrary reason is that some of the men were eligible to be “leaders” and none of the women were, rather than the reverse, or rather than left-handed people, people with large noses, etc.
Caine, brigade de garces:
February 14th, 2013 at 2:27 am
CR:
No, we don’t. There’s a lot of projection though, when it comes to those who think there were matriarchal societies. We’re talking Matriarchy, as opposed to Patriarchy. Matriarchy doesn’t mean a society where women were treated well, or one which worshiped women or goddesses, it means a society where women were in control, had the power and made the rules.
casus fortuitus:
February 14th, 2013 at 3:38 am
Have a Balloon
A gentle, good-natured reminder: civil partnerships need to be extended to opposite-sex (or mixed-sex, since I’m not that keen on setting up the sexes as “opposites”, either) couples: strictly speaking, two heterosexual people of the same sex could enter into a civil partnership already. And where did those bisexual people go again? ;)
But actually, I completely agree with you about the principle here. I’m fairly outraged that Cameron is refusing to extend civil partnerships to everyone, under the guise of keeping marriage strong. Ugh, conservatives.
Have a Balloon:
February 14th, 2013 at 4:24 am
Oh, I fail :( Sorry. I was concentrating on making sure I didn’t say ‘gay marriage’…
There’s a weird sort of alliance, though, in that the homophobes are pushing quite hard for civil partnerships to be extended to opposite-sex couples, because otherwise Teh Gays get something extra and IT’S NOT FAIR.
Giliell, professional cynic:
February 14th, 2013 at 4:53 am
But everybody will cheer grandma and grandpa on if they re-marry after they’ve been widowed for long enough…
Hipocysy, it knows no end.
Caine
I’m wondering how they made sense of children who looked exactly like their mother…
+++
re: prehistorical evidence
It’s again a field where our ideas about the present heavily influence our assumptions about the past.
See Mammoth-hunting menz
casus fortuitus:
February 14th, 2013 at 5:26 am
No worries at all, Have a Balloon.
Yeah, for once I can agree with the religious bigots. Stopped clocks and right for the wrong reasons and all that.
Nick Gotts (formerly KG):
February 14th, 2013 at 5:50 am
Which is excellent evidence for the limitations of extrapolating between human socio-sexual behaviour and that of even our closest relatives; even setting aside human cultural hypertrophy, these things clearly change quite fast among apes on an evolutionary time scale. Gorillas and gibbons have different systems again – from those of any of the three chimpanzees, and from each other.
PZ Myers:
February 14th, 2013 at 6:08 am
NEW THREAD.