“Usul, we have wormsign the likes of which even God has never seen.” »« Done!

Jeez, Harding, ease up on the equivocating, OK?

Jezebel justifies its existence every now and then, and today is one of those days. The publication is celebrating a first instance of what will likely become a hallowed tradition, and it starts off with a post by Kate Harding wwith the people-pleasing title Fuck You, Men’s Rights Activists. I really hate when my militant friends start to pull their punches. You know?

Excerpt, with emphasis added for local interest:

 

So fuck you, MRAs. Fuck you for showing up every time women speak, especially about rape and abuse, and trying to make it all about you. Fuck you for derailing threads about the victims of Marc Lépine, a man who screamed about his hatred for feminists as he murdered fourteen women and injured many others, because you also hate feminists and want a fucking cookie for not killing anyone. Fuck you for making rape and death threats against young women who dared to protest a speaking engagement by a man who thinks little girls would enjoy being raped by their fathers if it weren’t for society telling them it’s dirty. Fuck you for whining about how unfair it is that women might wonder if you’re a rapist when you approach them out of nowhere, while completely ignoring how unfair it is that women feel the need to be on guard all the time in public. Or that if we relax and behave normally—drinking, dancing, dressing however we want—you will be the first motherfuckers in line to blame us for getting ourselves raped.

Comments

  1. jose says

    So shrill and divisive. You sound almost like an angry black man, or perhaps like a militant atheist.

  2. natashayar-routh says

    Or maybe as trans woman.

    MRA’s are a remarkably whiny bunch of losers. I do wish Kate Harding had taken off the kid gloves and really gone after them.

  3. says

    Abdul Alhazred:

    Has anyone here ever encountered these guys other than on the internet?

    Yes. He was a friend of a friend and scared the crap out of me when he went off on “proxy violence” and how all feminists are equivalent to white supremacists, it’s right there in the name.

  4. says

    Has anyone here ever encountered these guys other than on the internet?

    While it goes against my principles to anwer questions by you, since you are not really interested in a conversation, I’ll answer one just this once.

    In short: Yes.

    A longer response would be: I am one of the organizers of Copenhagen Skeptics in the Pub, and one of the regulars is one of those people. In fact, he is banned from a number of skeptic blogs run by women.

  5. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Has anyone here ever encountered these guys other than on the internet?

    How many people you you speak to off in the internet?

  6. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    The Pullet Patrol just opened a very large prepaid tab for Kate Harding. They want to keep the fire going…

  7. Ogvorbis: Exhausted and broken says

    Has anyone here ever encountered these guys other than on the internet?

    Yes. In elementary school, high school, college, at forest fires, at work, as kid’s school.

    TRIGGER WARNING

    When I was a cub scout, I was raped by my scoutmaster. His reasoning, stated quite plainly, was that there were two kinds of people — men and girls. Some girls grew up to be men; the rest of them existed for the pleasure of men and if they refused to give the men pleasure, he was entitled to take it.

    In high school, there was a group of jocks who were well-known at the school for getting girls drunk at parties and raping them. Of course, to them (and to the rest of us uneducated morons at the school) getting drunk gave the jocks permission to do what they wanted. Most of the boys at the high school envied these jocks. The girls were not humans, they were fuckdolls, cunts, mattresses. Another group of boys joked about using veterinary tranquilizers on their dates. At least, I hope they were joking.

    In college, some of the young men that I knew didn’t view the young women as students. They were entertainment, drunk or sober, willing or not.

    At forest fires, I have heard LEOs refer to a transgendered person as ‘it’ (I did point out, in one of our security meetings, that this was not acceptable; if a person who has male plumbing identifies as a woman, she is a she unless that person requests a different pronoun). I have heard, and objected to (recently, anyway), jokes about rape, about incest, about beating women to make them compliant. I have heard law enforcement officers joke about how much fun it is to interview a woman who ‘claims to have been raped’, getting all the details on video.

    At work, I have heard fellow employees joke about rape, about beating women. I speak up, loudly, when I hear it and, over the past year, I haven’t heard it as much. A fellow employee went through a very long and acrimonious divorce and, during that time, he talked about the courts giving everything to the ex-wife, how he couldn’t even visit the kids (the divorce was, primarily, about him verbally and physically abusing his children and wife (he’s “better” now after six months of therapy)), how everything in the US is stacked against men because of the damned feminists.

    So yes, I have met MRAs in person. And I will probably meet more.

  8. Abdul Alhazred says

    It’s just that they seem so ubiquitous on the net. I was thinking perhaps it might be some peoples’ stupid idea of a joke.

    I live in Chicago and they are not prominent in local politics hereabouts. Are they big on college campuses these days?

  9. Abdul Alhazred says

    I’m not talking about sexists in general. I meet plenty of those.

    Specifically those who term themselves “Men’s Rights Activists”. Not in my presence, anyway.

  10. Beatrice says

    I was thinking perhaps it might be some peoples’ stupid idea of a joke.

    You know, even if, for example, someone declaring Marc Lépine a hero were “just joking”, that would still make him a misogynistic asshole.

  11. Beatrice says

    Abdul Alhazred,

    Hint1: If you have never encountered someone, it doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

    Hint2: What the hell is your deal? Do you think people who take MRAs seriously are just fucking idiots who can’t recognize a joke when it bites them in the arse, and you are the only smart person available to recognize what’s going on and enlighten us?

  12. Abdul Alhazred says

    You know, even if, for example, someone declaring Marc Lépine a hero were “just joking”, that would still make him a misogynistic asshole.

    I agree 100%.

    It’s just that people are more inhibited saying such things in person.

  13. Abdul Alhazred says

    I was not questioning their existence at all.

    I’m just wondering how big the “movement” really is.

    Anyone can put up an “official” looking website for a few hundred dollars.

  14. Beatrice says

    It’s just that people are more inhibited saying such things in person.

    So? Quite a lot of damage can be done by acting only online.

  15. Ogvorbis: Exhausted and broken says

    Specifically those who term themselves “Men’s Rights Activists”. Not in my presence, anyway.

    Much of what I just wrote about was before the Men’s Right’s Movement really went big.

    Sorry. I thought you were honestly seeking information. Never mind.

  16. says

    They do exist though their ideas tend to get spread around more then the movement’s name is. Luckily I think they are seem disproportionately loud on the internet for their actual numbers.

    Also let me just leave a little <3 for Kate Harding's post.

  17. Beatrice says

    Their movement is shit. But they make a lot of noise, harass people and spread their hate online. That way, they contribute to the overall misogyny and sexism, as well as inspire various “followers”.

  18. Abdul Alhazred says

    I am honestly seeking information about the prevalence of an organized “movement”.

    I am not questioning that all sorts of hideous creeps are out there.

  19. Beatrice says

    Ogvorbis,

    Your words may be wasted on Abdul Alhazred, but they are very much appreciated by people who take this topic seriously. Thanks for sharing and (warning : unsolicited advice) take a break and joke around the Lounge if it gets too much.

  20. says

    Well in the interests of full disclosure. I used to be one after two rather bad relationships one after another soured me on women. But I grew out of it. A lot of what I felt was anger at the two people who screwed me over rather than the inherent cruelty of the Double X chromosome. It’s just that as a 17 year old and then as a 18 year old my common sense was not as sensible and I kind of didn’t think too carefully about who I dated and so I got burned.

    It’s simple. The day you break up from someone you pretty much are running on pure anger and sadness and on that day you are rather conducive to the ideas they flog. IF your break up is sufficiently drama fuelled as my two were you would be biased against women and that’s when their bullshit makes sense.

  21. Abdul Alhazred says

    So that’s it?

    No information about the supposed topic of the original post?

    Is this because I previously implied that Michael Shermer is no sexist?

  22. silomowbray says

    I’ve met them in person too, MRAs. When I was in my early 20s, I was stupid enough to buy in to their bullshit. A bit before I hit 30, I began waking up to the stench. Since then, when I came across an MRA, I treated them like I would treat a rabid animal – I would leave quickly. Now that I have a daughter, my first inclination is to punch them in the mouth with a fire extinguisher.

    When you wipe the shit from your eyes, like I have, and discovered that you actually supported these fuckheads for a time, like I did, it’s very, very sick-making. And horrifying. And I’m still sorry. But most of the time I’m just angry. At them and myself.

  23. Pteryxx says

    I am honestly seeking information about the prevalence of an organized “movement”.

    Is this the same person who said there was no “skeptical movement” therefore there could be no sexism in it?

  24. says

    Ogvorbis, I ignored your trigger warning and pushed on ahead anyway. Though it was upsetting, I’m glad I did. Your characterization of all of those horrific behaviors and thought processes as being part of this is spot on and it dredged up details in my own experience that I’ve tried not to face. It’s probably why the MRA friend of a friend scared me so badly.

    Trigger Warning:

    I was assaulted by a man who worked in a crisis center for young women. The things he said leading up to isolating and attacking me were all about how difficult he found it to believe that all of us had been raped. He suggested this was really just a way for us to manipulate and hurt men.

    Everything he said was designed to dehumanize us and delegitimize our stories, to play on the fact that we must be liars because that’s what women do and all we’re really after and all we’re really good for is some alpha male’s dick.

    These viewpoints from MRAs aren’t just upsetting or offensive. They’re hunting methods.

  25. Abdul Alhazred says

    @Pteryxx

    There’s plenty of sexism. But Michael Shermer is no sexist.

    And there is no “skeptical movement”, just a lot of navel gazing and heresy hunting.

  26. Abdul Alhazred says

    @The Mellow Monkey: Caerie

    More real information. Thank you.

    I’ll just lurk for a while now, but I really did learn something in this thread.

  27. Ogvorbis: Exhausted and broken says

    So that’s it?

    No information about the supposed topic of the original post?

    Is this because I previously implied that Michael Shermer is no sexist?

    You’re the one who asked the question that took us down this road. You are also the one who accepts the existance of the ideas of the MRA, but seems to think that MRAs are a figment of the collective imagination of feminists. Your the one who, despite the availability of things like Google, is willfully unaware of the existence of actual men’s rights groups (most of them quite small and internet based) — groups which, every damned one of them, no matter how honest and realistic the initial group may be, quickly gets taken over by sexists, misogynists, rape apologists.

    Read again what I wrote up above about the scoutmaster. He probably never heard of MRAs. They may not have existed back then. But I can guarantee that he would vehemently oppose anyone who stood in the way of treating the world as his toy.

    So nice try on blaming the people who answered your questions for not talking about the original post. Asshole.

  28. badgersdaughter says

    Has anyone here ever encountered these guys other than on the internet?

    Yes, I used to be in a relationship with a guy who read the MRA sites and got worse and worse as time went on until he was blaming me for all of his troubles (unemployment, no car, depression, etc.) because “women get everything they want” (I had a job, a car, friends, and “was able to pay” all the bills). The day he ranted at me that I was somehow responsible for his overwhelming unhappiness, I told him, “I can see that you think so. Maybe you should move out, since associating with me is only harming you.” Suddenly I was no longer the author of all of his misfortunes.

  29. =8)-DX says

    Not got much time to respond, but after my divorce I realised that many of the things I did or said where (although well meant) damaging and abusive. Now I don’t think there are “sexists”(assholes) and “nonsexists”(nice guys), but rather that sexism is a pervasive cultural problem that it is crucial to aknowledge. Just like PZ said a few articles back: we’re all racist and sexist, every day. The important difference is coming to terms with our own predjudices and rejecting those opinions or behaviours that harm or dehumanise others.

    I’ve had arguments with MRA proponents rejecting feminism wholesale in real life, yes, yes. I’ve also had to change my view on a whole number of issues once I accepted the reality of gender discrimintation and found out about my own privilege.

  30. noastronomer says

    @silomowbray #29 “Now that I have a daughter, my first inclination is to punch them in the mouth with a fire extinguisher.”

    Strange how having daughters does that to a father.

    Mike.
    Father of two.

  31. says

    Abdul Alhazred,

    What’s next? You’re going to demand exact numbers of KKK members to derail a conversation about racism? Just please fucking stop, ok? You’re being an ass.

  32. says

    Has anyone here ever encountered these guys other than on the internet?

    As you’re a fuckwitted troll who lives to derail threads, I generally ignore you. This time, I’ll answer your question: YES.

  33. says

    Avicenna:

    A lot of what I felt was anger at the two people who screwed me over rather than the inherent cruelty of the Double X chromosome. It’s just that as a 17 year old and then as a 18 year old my common sense was not as sensible and I kind of didn’t think too carefully about who I dated and so I got burned.

    It’s simple. The day you break up from someone you pretty much are running on pure anger and sadness and on that day you are rather conducive to the ideas they flog. IF your break up is sufficiently drama fuelled as my two were you would be biased against women and that’s when their bullshit makes sense.

    When I was 16, I was caught in a parking lot by a serial rapist and murderer who had a very good time with me. I survived the experience, barely. The Bonus was dealing with one sexist asshole after another for the two years of trials following. It must have been a fucking miracle that I didn’t automagically turn into a person who hated all men, right? Because that experience certainly wouldn’t have affected me.

    Pardon my snark, but I’m both disgusted and disheartened by the amount of explanations I’ve seen in recent years for someone hating on women coming down to “a woman was mean to me when I was young.” Are you all being raised in a vat somewhere, where no one at all has told you that thinking is your friend?

  34. says

    Hey, Abdul Alhazred, re-read this part:

    Fuck you for showing up every time women speak, especially about rape and abuse, and trying to make it all about you.

    Isn’t it nice of me to make it big enough for you to clearly see it now?

  35. says

    Hey, Chris, do you have access to the banhammer on the dashboard? If you don’t, and you think someone deserves a good splat, just let me know.

  36. Gnumann+, nothing gnu under the sun (but the name sticks) says

    Has anyone here ever encountered these guys other than on the internet?

    I used to look at one in the mirror.

    Thankfully, I got better.

  37. TonyJ says

    Has anyone here ever encountered these guys other than on the internet?

    My wife has. She used to run a daycare, and the MRA was the ex-husband of one of the mothers of a daycare kid. Luckily he only dropped off or picked up the kid on very rare occasions.

  38. says

    Some important things to mention:

    1. The internet is real. Just because something is more commonly encountered on the internet doesn’t mean it’s not real, or that it doesn’t have any influence. The internet isn’t just some fantasy MMO where there’s a sharp line between in-character and out-of-character speech and actions. Real people discuss real actions in places like this. We shouldn’t be expected to brush off sexist remarks as just some troll having fun without really meaning anything. The internet is not a “just kidding” free pass.

    2. Privileged groups don’t necessarily have to be organized or explicit to be destructive or to maintain their power. Sexism is a cultural norm. It’s ubiquitous to the point of invisibility. A lot of people don’t see it because it’s so widespread, and when someone does see it, there are plenty of people who will hand out ready made excuses, rationalizations, false “rules,” and so forth to avoid addressing it. Misogynists can often get away with saying the most horrible things without a guilty conscience or negative social consequences because they know people will rationalize it away for them and demonize the people who dare to complain.

  39. Anthony K says

    Has anyone here ever encountered these guys other than on the internet?

    Yup. At least two.

  40. Rawnaeris, FREEZE PEACHES says

    I want to add another hearty,”Fuck You” you the list.

    Fuck you for making it so that I have to stop and wonder what the reaction will be if I post this article on my Facebook.

  41. TonyJ says

    Has anyone here ever encountered these guys other than on the internet?

    My wife has. She used to run a daycare, and the MRA was the ex-husband of one of the mothers of a daycare kid. Luckily he only dropped off or picked up the kid on very rare occasions, because he was a creepy fucker.

  42. says

    Privileged groups don’t necessarily have to be organized or explicit to be destructive or to maintain their power.

    This is really an idea that needs to be hammered into heads more often. It’s not just about some hate group marching down the street. It’s about the undercurrent of the culture, shaping assumptions and reactions and giving a pass to some truly vile stuff because, hey, it’s not like they identify themselves as sexists or racists or any other form of bigot.

    There are basic sexist ideas coursing through a lot of different cultures. Those basic sexist ideas are given voice by the MRAs–things that one would normally only think instead of come right out and say, because that would be gauche–but they don’t originate from them.

    Someone doesn’t have to call himself an MRA to be thinking and acting on those same destructive, hateful ideas.

  43. says

    Obviously some of this is going to triggering and shitty…

    I remember back in the 1990s, being in the Marines and the general tone of almost every conversation about women was hostile and similar to the current MRA talk: women only want our(men’s) money, they are worthless and shouldn’t make as much money as men because they don’t work as hard, it was OK to take what you want from a woman by deception and coercion and getting her drunk, and by force if necessary… but just joking, OF COURSE just joking!

    There was the warrant officer who bragged about getting drunk, coming home, and sodomizing his ex-wife in her sleep. There was a guy who only had sex with prostitutes, who constantly talked about kidnapping and raping women. There were a few guys who targeted underage young women for sex, often using alcohol to smooth things along. A couple of guys beat their wives/girlfriends, and one of them pulled a gun on his wife in front of their children.

    And you don’t say anything, even if you disagree with it, because you don’t disagree enough to put yourself at risk in any way, right? And when a guy beats up a woman, we all said how terrible it was, but of course there weren’t any signs like him saying “bitches need to be slapped around” and of course no one would say something like that except as a joke, just a joke!

    But maybe it isn’t only a joke, and maybe you start to notice that a lot of men talk that way, from all walks of life. And then you discover that maybe you talk that way, “joke” that way too, and maybe you don’t mean anything by it, or you only do it when you’re really angry, or because a woman really deserves… what, exactly does a woman deserve? And so what if YOU aren’t going to do something? Because the odds are almost 100% that one of the times you voiced something nasty, one of the men in the room agreed with it and had or would someday act out what you said. Or you laughed and agreed or even just went along with someone saying something misogynistic, and he took your behavior as approval for his words, his attitudes, and his eventual actions.

    It doesn’t need a specific name and membership cards and yearly dues, and you can be a member of the misogynist club without any specific effort at all. All you have to do is participate in the diseased culture that produces MRAs, and allow it to go unchallenged when it rears its ugly fucking head.

  44. says

    [quote]There are basic sexist ideas coursing through a lot of different cultures. Those basic sexist ideas are given voice by the MRAs–things that one would normally only think instead of come right out and say, because that would be gauche–but they don’t originate from them.[/quote]
    Yeah, MRAs are really only a symptom. Average misogyny is still pretty bad, even in the western world. It’s just not usually that bad. The problem isn’t that MRAs have power – they don’t. The problem is that misogynist chucklefucks like the Republican PArty (Or for that matter, the democrats, just considerably less so) *do* have power.

  45. says

    Hey, Chris, do you have access to the banhammer on the dashboard? If you don’t, and you think someone deserves a good splat, just let me know.

    I don’t believe I do have access. So far it hasn’t been necessary, though that guy Brownian has been pushing his luck. *strokes beard*

  46. mythbri says

    Has anyone here ever encountered these guys other than on the internet?

    Just a few weeks ago I stopped by a fast food joint to grab a drink. I was on the road, I was thirsty, and the line for the drive-thru was way too long. I went inside, where a teenage couple sat chatting and laughing together at the table nearest the line for food.

    The girl somehow mentioned that she had a Rosie the Riveter T-shirt, and the boy immediately made a face, and said angrily “Those are so stupid.”

    The girl was taken aback, and said that she really liked it. It was vintage girl-power – what could possibly be wrong with it?

    The boy then launched into an increasingly angry and loud tirade about “feminist bitches” who think that all men are rapists, when women really just lie about rape to get men into trouble, and men are the ones fighting and dying in the wars, so it’s only natural that women should have to submit to them for sex, and how fathers never get custody of their kids because “feminist bitches” are trying to get men relegated to second-class citizens.

    Now, he didn’t used the words “men’s rights” or the acronym MRA, but those are favored talking points by that bunch. All because of a Rosie the Riveter T-shirt.

    My uncle has anger issues and two divorces. He was sexually abused by a man when he was a teenager, he’s had substance abuse problems, and he did not end up with custody of the kids he had with his second wife. Nor did he ever have to pay any child support (not that he would have, if he’d been ordered to). But his second wife had an affair before she actually ended up leaving him, and eventually tried to have the kids’ last name changed to that of her new husband.

    My uncle flipped his shit, and got heavily involved in both the internet and the legal system. He turned to MRA websites for advice on how to do this. He was even dragging my father, a man I love and respect, down into the conspiracy theory of feminist world domination.

    It’s not hard to find them in real life. Also, Abdul, did you miss the part where Harding mentioned the protest against one of them speaking (in person!) at a college campus?

  47. unclefrogy says

    what to say? I know there is nothing I can say that will change anyone (abdul) or change things.
    the other side of this computer screen are other rooms with real people in them who have flesh and blood lives are not only existing “on the internet” are not just 15 year olds with not much experience.
    untruth should be openly discredited and challenged and doubt needs to be explored.
    If I have doubts I examine them in my own thinking first before I come on to others with a fuck you you are making that up. at least I try to some times.
    I am not going to try and list all “the haters” of various types I have met “in real life” though I will say if you meet one expressing a particular hate at the time you will likely find the they hate a bunch of other thing or groups also and for similar reasons.

    uncle frogy

  48. dhvanitmehta says

    Why would it matter if MRAs were just limited to the internet? It’s not like people on the internet are hooked up on machines, all Matrix-like, and never leave their houses.

    The sort of people who anonymously post hateful, bigoted shit aren’t phantoms on the interwebs. They’re real people, people who probably consider themselves good people, who may not even realize they’re hateful, bigoted shits. So even if someone doesn’t walk around outside their house with a big pro-MRA sign, the simple fact that they exist on the internet is pretty comprehensive proof that they exist. And even if the label is limited to the internet, which as has already been pointed out repeatedly, it is not, that doesn’t mean there aren’t plenty of assholes who would identify with that label when prompted.

  49. bobo says

    I am all alone with an MRA over at “No country for women’ and so far I have learned three things from him:

    1)The regular uses of abortion and contraception by women indicates that they feel no obligation to bear children. Thus, when women become and remain pregnant, they do so strictly because they desire to do so. Thus, it is not a sacrifice.

    2) Pregnancy is risk, not a sacrifice. Women find fulfillment in the experience of childbirth and often trick men into getting them pregnant. This is why feminist, Betty Friedan, led a chant of “no male birth control pill” during a conference on the subject. Women don’t want men to be able to prevent them from getting pregnant.

    Also, childbirth deaths fall under the category of natural causes. We are talking about deaths caused by social patterns. Men die from violence/war, suicide, risky behavior and workplace injuries at a far greater rate than women. Men also die from natural causes more than women. No one says that women don’t die from these things and that their deaths don’t count. We are talking about magnitude.

    Boys are molested commonly and many times by women. Why don’t you emphasize them? Do they not count? Is it because men ain’t shit? See how hypocritical you are?

    3) You’ve gone strawman now since the original intent of this article was apparently to show how much men hate women. So how did we come to discussing the raping and killing of boys? Does this show that men hate men? Doesn’t that hurt your argument of how victimized females are when you point out accurately that males are victims of violence far more than females are?

    It’s no secret that men are more violent than women. It is also no secret that women are sexually attracted to violent men.

    ——————–

    I am getting really sick of how they trot out the “women abuse children more than men” meme, and the “millions of men died in war to protect the women they loved and noone honours these men”

  50. Anthony K says

    So far it hasn’t been necessary, though that guy Brownian has been pushing his luck. *strokes beard*

    Who?

  51. says

    @Bobo

    “millions of men died in war to protect the women they loved and noone honours these men”

    Ugh my father drags that kind of crap out from time to time.

  52. bobo says

    #61 MichaelD

    This asshole has the balls to say that we should be talking about the men who were injured trying to protect the women from Marc Lepine…

  53. Ichthyic says

    This is why feminist, Betty Friedan, led a chant of “no male birth control pill” during a conference on the subject. Women don’t want men to be able to prevent them from getting pregnant.

    this line evokes all sorts of reactions from me.

    -Friedan campaigned against male birth control?

    -something tells me that even IF Friedan campaigned against a male birth control pill, it wasn’t for the reason mr. fuckwit suggested.

    -I’ve never met a woman that objected to ME using a condom. since that form of “male birth control” has been around hundreds of years, you would think that all these imaginary women Mr. Fuckwit is thinking all want to get pregnant would have campaigned against condoms too.

    first step… find out what the hell mr fuckwit was referring to with Friedan and male birth control.

  54. dhvanitmehta says

    @#62:

    I’m pretty sure people killed is ever so slightly more important than “people injured trying to protect others.” You’d (or rather, the asshat you’re referring as having said these things) have to be a tool to say otherwise.

  55. says

    Nobody mourns military deaths?

    Fuck, serving in the military is a class benefit dudes receive, and he complains he’s not getting his cock sucked enough for not even serving, just because he shares genitalia with soldiers? These dudes don’t know society at all.

  56. carlie says

    Kate Harding shout-out on Pharyngula? Fantastic worlds colliding! I don’t know if I can take it!

  57. Ichthyic says

    hmmm…. It does look like Friedman lead a group that opposed A male birth control pill, but so far, all I can find is the doctor who claimed to have “invented” the first male birth control pill, espousing HIS reasoning as to why Friedman apparently opposed it.

    I can’t locate anything that documents what Friedman and co. actually said themselves were the reasons they were protesting this.

  58. says

    Giliell:

    Well, Caine, seems like even getting almost murdered can’t compete with important male fee-fees getting hurt…

    So it would seem. And I’m finding that to be orders of magnitude difficult to understand. I had my heart broken when I was young, too. Didn’t most of us? I didn’t go all raging, vindictive hater over it. It’s rather scary to think that’s standard behaviour on the part of young men.

  59. bobo says

    The MRA theory that I have heard is that men are oppressed and exploited b/c women force them off to war…

    But, being forced to fight and die has one added advantage, men have evolved to become *smarter* than women. Because women stayed home all the time and raised children, women did not evolve to be as intelligent as men. Female intelligence is merely ‘average’, while male intelligence goes to the extremes, from dumbass to SUPERGENIUS. And then the author provided us with a stellar example: during the victorian era, many many women learned to play piano, and yet there were no female Mozarts – thus, women are inherently less inclined to be geniuses than men!

    The above was an essay from some fuckwit evo-psychologist and I *wish* I could find it again, but I have had no luck:(

  60. dhvanitmehta says

    Wait, what? I’m pretty sure wars were, classically, fought for the pretty obvious reasons, “I don’t like them,” “They believe differently than I do,” and/or “I want their stuff.” Nothing in any of those reasons implies any coercion by the opposite sex.

    What alternate reality does that evo-psychologist live in?

  61. says

    Zinc Avenger:

    If you’re overwhelmingly privileged, you even think you’re entitled to a piece of the “underdog” pie.

    That’s a damn good point. Thank you for saying so – I hadn’t thought of it from that perspective before, but it makes a lot of sense, especially as there are several fellows on the Shermer thread who are following this exact line of reasoning.

  62. rq says

    This was the post I needed to end the day.
    The comments afterward from those questioning the existence of MRAs? Not so much.
    Thanks, Chris, for the post!

  63. glodson says

    Some of these comments make me feel more than just a little guilty. In the past few years, I’ve noticed more the need for frank discussions over sexism and I see clearly the need for feminism. And I have to to ask myself “would I see this if not for my daughter?” She’s turning 3 soon, and I don’t want her to grow up in a world where’s she treated like a second class citizen, where she has to deal with some of the evil and just blood-boiling things I’ve read in these comments.

    And it makes me ashamed that I turned a blind eye to it. And I am coming to really fucking hate MRA’s and their apologists. I don’t know how many there are. I’ve never ran into one personally, but then again, that just might be a function of the people I’m normally around and less about how many exist. I realize that. And I realize that even the words on the internet, expressed only on the internet by some cowards, are important. They are because it forms a bubble of thought. Others read these words, they see these ideas, and it serves to confirm their own virulent take on sexism and feminism.

    This contributes, it gives the more outspoken morons the courage to speak louder. It allows the abusive troglodytes to create the narrative shield that allows them to delude themselves into thinking they are better than they are. It shifts the talk where it becomes less about equality and more about harassment thanks to the normalization of some of these thoughts.

    Understanding that now makes me want to go back and punch myself in the face for ignoring the issue, for being ignorant. Which is probably the most frustrating part of reading the drivel from a MRA, just knowing that there are still men and women who were like me, who just laughed at this idiocy and not seeing the importance of it all.

  64. stefanels says

    Caine, Fleur du mal:
    I didn’t go all raging, vindictive hater over it. It’s rather scary to think that’s standard behaviour on the part of young men.

    Wow. Classic sexist generalism.

  65. says

    Glodson:

    Understanding that now makes me want to go back and punch myself in the face for ignoring the issue, for being ignorant.

    Don’t be too hard on yourself. We don’t grow up in a vacuum, we are all raised in a patriarchal culture which has normalized sexism. It takes time and work (and a working brain, of course) to become aware of systemic sexism and privilege and how such things affect our thoughts, words and actions.

    Shorter version: we all gotta take the red pill.

  66. Gnumann+, nothing gnu under the sun (but the name sticks) says

    If Chris Clarke bans somebody, will they go into PZ’s dungeon, or does Chris have a dungeon of his own?

    I think it might involve somewhere with an excess of fluffy bunnies. Possibly Australia.

  67. scriabin says

    I was a naive young dude in first year university in Canada when Lepine killed those women. I was horrified and went to the vigils – and then was appalled to find that most of the speeches and commentary was focused on misogyny. At the time, I thought that this was simply the act of a single insane individual. I was ticked that the vigils were being used for political purposes. I didn’t feel that women should be tarring me with the same brush as Lepine simply because of my gender. I lived in a little isolated and idealistic bubble where I thought the sexes were equal and people in society treated each other that way.

    Fortunately, I was at a liberal arts university and over the next few years I learned to recognize my privilege (albeit in a little more gentle process than the flame-throwing Pharyngula approach!).

    That’s all just to say that it’s important and worthwhile to keep hammering away at the MRAs. Some of them may just be blind, idealistic guys. Keep working on them. It’s amazing how good fresh air smells when one finally pulls one’s head of one’s own ass.

  68. mythbri says

    @kristinc #80

    Unfortunately, no, although she was looking incredibly uncomfortable. I was torn between wanting to barge into this conversation and tell that angry little boy that he had no idea what the fuck he was talking about, and tell the girl that she can think Rosie the Riveter is cool if she damn well pleases.

    But my default mode is non-confrontational, and I was worried that I might appear to “prove him right” about “feminist bitches” if I were to say anything. I tried to catch the girl’s eye and shake my head at her, which is the international unspoken code for “This guy is an asshole – get away from him as soon as possible!” But I couldn’t.

    …Is there an international unspoken code for that? Because there should be.

  69. bobo says

    Don’t be too hard on yourself. We don’t grow up in a vacuum, we are all raised in a patriarchal culture which has normalized sexism. It takes time and work (and a working brain, of course) to become aware of systemic sexism and privilege and how such things affect our thoughts, words and actions.

    I am female, and I fell for the same crap as a girl. I never did believe the lies that women were less capable than men, but as a child I did fall for victim-blaming, and truly believed that if a woman was raped, she *must* have asked for it in some way. Once I matured a little, I realized how stupid it was to blame the victim. (and by mature, I mean, entered my teens).

    For the longest time, however, I have used gendered slurs, and that is soemthing, thanks to the people at FTB, that I am learning to overcome. However, I did use the ‘c’ word for a long time, and I was inspired by a VERY feminist croatian woman who used it as part of reclaiming the word. So, in that sense, I did not have a problem with it.

  70. eoleen says

    strongly suggest that the unlimited right to bear arms – a la a .45 ACP with one up the spout – (optional, not manditory) be extended to WOMEN ONLY… Then let the MRA’s try something…

  71. says

    If Chris Clarke bans somebody, will they go into PZ’s dungeon, or does Chris have a dungeon of his own?

    I think it might involve somewhere with an excess of fluffy bunnies. Possibly Australia.

    There are lots of bunnies here in the Mojave, and there are also hundreds, perhaps thousands, of abandoned mines where No One Will Ever Find The Body.

    Oh, wait. You’re probably speaking figuratively.

  72. echidna says

    Bobo, no female Mozarts? I gather he hasn’t heard of Nanerl, Wolfgang’s sister. Said to be more talented than he, but she unfortunately was a girl, therefore her talent was useless.

  73. says

    strongly suggest that the unlimited right to bear arms – a la a .45 ACP with one up the spout – (optional, not manditory) be extended to WOMEN ONLY… Then let the MRA’s try something…

    I would strongly prefer this thread not go in that direction, thank you.

  74. glodson says

    @82: You are quite right.

    Still, it stings to realize how badly something was missed. I guess I question if I realized this because I grew, which would be good, or because I now have a little girl and am taking a closer look at these issues. I really hope it is the former over the latter. But I guess the end result is the same.

    I do wonder how… how can I put this?

    How can anyone who thinks rationally buy this MRA bullshit? I think it even hurts men, as it does paint us in a really crappy mold, and even trivializes some real issues. Like in family law. That’s a good issue to talk about, a rare example where a woman can have a slight advantage. Or in terms of sentencing, men do tend to get harsher sentences. These are some things that should be considered. But when the people screaming about it include such vitriol and hate, it becomes hard to have a good conversation. Instead of talking about the role sex and gender has in these circumstances, it becomes a mess. Instead of actually wanting to talk about abused men, the MRA’s seem to be more content in downplaying domestic violence.

    They really don’t give a shit about Rights, which is fucking maddening as well. So it more a Women Subjugation Advocate movement.

  75. bobo says

    #92 yes echidna, he said that women had *plenty* of opportunities to become famous composers during the victorian era, and that not one was able to fulfill that role simply b/c, well, women just don’t have that talent!

  76. Rob says

    First up, great article from Harding. Thanks for bringing it to our attention Chris.

    Caine

    Giliell:

    Well, Caine, seems like even getting almost murdered can’t compete with important male fee-fees getting hurt…

    So it would seem. And I’m finding that to be orders of magnitude difficult to understand. I had my heart broken when I was young, too. Didn’t most of us? I didn’t go all raging, vindictive hater over it. It’s rather scary to think that’s standard behaviour on the part of young men.

    Caine, I didn’t know that piece of your history. I’m cursed with a good imagination but it fails me in understanding the depth of impact such an event must have had. Once again I feel humbled and somewhat awed by the strength demonstrated by so many commentators at FTB. I mean that most sincerely. In the last year I have learnt to greatly value this community.

    As to your quote above. Yes I have had my heart broken several times as a young man. Mostly just run of the mill stuff, but my first marriage (too young) ended in a significant and nasty betrayal of trust. It still didn’t make me hate women, just made me a bit more cautious about getting into a relationship again. I don’t believe that raging vindictive hate is standard behaviour for all young men. Undoubtedly anger, even rage in flashes, was a part of my adolescence at times and I saw it in plenty of other young males. But this was flashes, not the sort of sustained obsessive bitterness that we seem to get from MRA’s and their ilk. It was certainly something that I and the men I knew grew out of in late teens and early 20’s (full maturity taking somewhat longer it has to be said).

    My point is that I think messed up, irrational and sometimes antisocial behaviour is a feature of both male and female teenagers that we grow out of by and large. The irrational pathology of the MRA is another thing all together. A messed up angry and hurt young man is more likely to fall prey to older MRA’s around them. As we’ve seen in this thread some recover by themselves. Maybe some need to be rescued? For the avoidance of all doubt my feelings are not hurt all by what you said and even if they were it would pale into insignificance beside the experiences outlined by you and others in this thread.

  77. says

    eoleen:

    strongly suggest that the unlimited right to bear arms – a la a .45 ACP with one up the spout – (optional, not manditory) be extended to WOMEN ONLY… Then let the MRA’s try something…

    Right, because this ^ isn’t the same garbage rhetoric, amirite? It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

    And as you have nothing to contribute of substance, you might find other sites more to your liking. Try something up to your intellectual level – lolcats, perhaps.

  78. bobo says

    Ok, I found the article. Hooray!

    http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm

    When I sayI am researching how culture exploits men, the first reaction is usually “How can you say culture exploits men, whenmen are in charge of everything?”
    Who’s in prison, all over the world, ascriminals or political prisoners? The population on Death Row has neverapproached 51% female. Who’s homeless? Again, mostly men.Whom does society use for bad or dangerous jobs? US Department of Laborstatistics report that 93% of the people killed on the job are men. Likewise,who gets killed in battle? Even in today’s American army, which has made muchof integrating the sexes and putting women into combat, the risks aren’t equal.This year we passed the milestone of 3,000 deaths in Iraq, and of those, 2,938were men, 62 were women.
    But remember,while the men you see are getting gold coins, there are other men you don’tsee, who are still bleeding to death on the battlefield from spear wounds.

    Givingbirth is a revealing example. What could be more feminine than giving birth?Throughout most of history and prehistory, giving birth was at the center ofthe women’s sphere, and men were totally excluded. Men were rarely or neverpresent at childbirth, nor was the knowledge about birthing even shared withthem. But not very long ago, men were finally allowed to get involved, and themen were able to figure out ways to make childbirth safer for both mother andbaby. Think of it: the most quintessentially female activity, and yet the menwere able to improve on it in ways the women had not discovered for thousandsand thousands of years.

    yet in jazz, where the performer has to be creative while playing, there is a stunningimbalance: hardly any women improvise.Why? The ability is there but perhaps the motivation is less. They don’tfeel driven to do it. I supposethe stock explanation for any such difference is that women were notencouraged, or were not appreciated, or were discouraged from being creative.But I don’t think this stock explanation fits the facts very well. In the 19thcentury in America, middle-class girls and women played piano far more thanmen. Yet all that piano playing failed to result in any creative output. Therewere no great women composers, no new directions in style of music or how toplay, or anything like that. All those female pianists entertained theirfamilies and their dinner guests but did not seem motivated to create anythingnew.
    Meanwhile, at about the same time,black men in America created blues and then jazz, both of which changed the waythe world experiences music.. But somehow the men were driven to create something new,more than the women.

    ———————–
    the entire thing sounds like an MRA handbook
    sorry if this post is too long, I apolgoize, I tried to shorten it as much as possible without rendering it unreadable.

  79. stefanels says

    Caine, Fleur du mal:
    Of course. I wouldn’t be going by anything people actually write or anything. Nope.

    Yeah, me neither.

    The point at which a general observation is made to make individuals feel uncomfortable because they superficially belong to a particular group being condemned or criticized, is the point usually designated as “racism”, “sexism”, etc.

    Congratulations. You are (at best) a well-read sexist.

  80. says

    Rob:

    Yes I have had my heart broken several times as a young man. Mostly just run of the mill stuff, but my first marriage (too young) ended in a significant and nasty betrayal of trust. It still didn’t make me hate women, just made me a bit more cautious about getting into a relationship again.

    Right, that’s the sort of reaction one would expect from anyone who has a bad relationship experience. I understand having seriously negative feelings towards the specific person who broke your heart or fucked you over. It’s extrapolating that to all women or men that’s disturbing.

    A messed up angry and hurt young man is more likely to fall prey to older MRA’s around them.

    Yes, you’re right, of course. It’s just dismaying that there seems to be little thinking going on in these cases. I keep seeing men excusing their sexism on the basis of having been hurt/fucked over by a woman at one point in their life. I suppose this has always been there, I just haven’t noticed. I kind of wish I hadn’t noticed.

    Thanks for your post, Rob.

  81. stefanels says

    Caine, Fleur du mal:
    It’s extrapolating that to all women or men that’s disturbing.

    Freaky. This is what I believe. I must be misunderstanding something here.

  82. chrislawson says

    Abdul Alhazred:

    The MRAs are not an organised movement. It’s really little groups of people hanging out together on the internet and forming their own little echo chambers — a lot like the ID movement before the Discovery Institute came along. But the fact that there are no official lobby groups or billionaire-funded institutes does not mean they are harmless. Even before the DI came alone, the intelligent design people helped the religious right politically and gave the full-blown YECs enough pseudoscientific cover to push a lot of bad education policies into existence and generate completely undeserved media access.

    Likewise with MRAs. They may be pathetic little mental goblins with few direct channels to power, but they spread lies (like the “fact” that Betty Freidan had the power to stop all research on male contraceptives, which is as ridiculous a persecution fantasy as “the Jews invented/exaggerated the Holocaust for political power” or “Christians are victimised in the US for being Christian”), they enable misogyny, and they encourage each other’s violence/bullying/anger against women.

  83. barklikeadog says

    I haven’t posted on this site for a couple of years because….well I don’t know why. Anyway after reading some of the stuff about MRA’s (I work in health care and thought it was refering to Magnetic Resonance Angiography at first) but then I delved some more. Good grief I am so cluless. I had no idea there was even a movement like that. It’s been mind boggling some of the shit that these people whine about. I was raised to not be prejudiced against any group. Even my very Southern Father admonished me when I was 8 for calling Japanese “Japs” and that was in the 60’s. I’ve always had a deep respect for women especially. My Mother and Sisters insisted on it much to my chagrine at times when I was being stupid. That’s why I don’t understant the mysoginistic attitudes of these fuckers. Ok I too was painfully dumped as a young man. So what! It takes 2 to tango and honestly I was the problem much (most) of the time. I was a irresponsible twit. It’s thos men who make the rape jokes, do the raping, that puts the attitudes in women’s heads that a strnger or even someone they know can’t be trusted.

    Fuck you for whining about how unfair it is that women might wonder if you’re a rapist when you approach them out of nowhere, while completely ignoring how unfair it is that women feel the need to be on guard all the time in public. Or that if we relax and behave normally—drinking, dancing, dressing however we want—you will be the first motherfuckers in line to blame us for getting ourselves raped.

    It makes me uncomfortable when I see a lady that looks suspiciously at me because I know I would never hurt her. But she doesn’t and it’s those fuck heads that did that. So yeah it doesn’t just affect women. It affects all of society. Assholes. Ok my whine… These people are ignorant, insensitive tools that anly care about themselves.

    Both my wives were (ex #1 of course) were raped as teenagers and I saw how that affected their lives. My current wife has a fear of moths because she associates them with the rape (under a street light at night). A silly thing to be scared of moths right? Not really, it’s the feelings that are associated with them that gets her. It makes me sick that someone would do that to another person. It literally kicks me in the gut.

  84. says

    Caine:

    I keep seeing men excusing their sexism on the basis of having been hurt/fucked over by a woman at one point in their life. I suppose this has always been there, I just haven’t noticed. I kind of wish I hadn’t noticed.

    I can remember hearing this sort of thing from guys when I was in college, but I always brushed it off. ‘It’s like the meaningless ranting anybody does after a bad breakup,’ I told myself, even as it made me incredibly uncomfortable to hear women denigrated so foully to my face.

    It’s only been recently that I fully grasped that they were using their experiences as an excuse to embrace and demonstrate their sexism. That wasn’t a pleasant realization, but now I’m seeing it everywhere. Is it more common, or am I just noticing it now?

    And it so perfectly mirrors how every racist I’ve ever met has claimed some terrible, traumatic experience with a minority that I can’t help but think that–whether they want to admit it or not–just like the racists, the hate had already been put there in the misogynists by society and they simply created a narrative to excuse it. Sure, the bare facts of the experience may have happened, but largely as a self-fulfilling prophesy.

  85. Anthony K says

    I keep seeing men excusing their sexism on the basis of having been hurt/fucked over by a woman at one point in their life. I suppose this has always been there, I just haven’t noticed. I kind of wish I hadn’t noticed.

    Gah, I’ve been that asshole. I didn’t go full MRA, but I was pretty fucking bitter.

    Fuck, what a douche I was.

  86. silomowbray says

    I wonder how many MRAs fappingly wish they were Kzinti? You know, given how Kzinti males are ‘Heroes’ and do all the fighting whilst Kzin females are sub-intelligent and really serve only one purpose.

    Sorry. My science-fiction nerd brain had to go there. I have an overactive something.

  87. Rey Fox says

    A messed up angry and hurt young man is more likely to fall prey to older MRA’s around them.

    The culture of male entitlement is there to push them along that path as well.

  88. petrander says

    I haven’t been following the latest discussions, but why are some people so hard on Abdul Alhazred? It seems to me he is just asking an honest question…

  89. says

    I luckly managed to avoid MRA. Started reading one of their sites and one point thinking oh this is cool a group of men working to fix the problems men face. Then I fell through into the feminism bashing and it just lost me. So I was a moon landing denier (2 years) longer then I was interested in MRA :P

    Also BUNNIES *its super effective / looses ability to spell properly* !!!!!!!! I LOVE BUNNEHS! Being sent to a swarm of bunnehs sounds awesome. Sooooooo Cute ^.^ Teeheehee

  90. glodson says

    And it so perfectly mirrors how every racist I’ve ever met has claimed some terrible, traumatic experience with a minority that I can’t help but think that–whether they want to admit it or not–just like the racists, the hate had already been put there in the misogynists by society and they simply created a narrative to excuse it. Sure, the bare facts of the experience may have happened, but largely as a self-fulfilling prophesy.

    I think this is dead on. There’s a core group of people like this, in any kind of bigotry. They create this myth. Women are bad and trying to take my rights! Why? Because a woman ruined my life, so they must be out to get us all! Black people are violent! Why? Because one shoved me!

    It is a great way to play the victim, to blame others for their failings, take no responsibility for their own wrong-doings, and still think of themselves as fair minded people. It creates a narrative shield which allows them to direct their hate without seeing how insane it is.

  91. says

    @Petrander

    Oh it was in another post umm the Michael Shermer one from yesterday? Where he was making some weird arguments (skeptics movement doesn’t exist) (when asked why not) (cause they haven’t had any big victories like the environmental moment or civil rights movement). So I think its still on people’s mind.

  92. says

    I wonder how many MRAs fappingly wish they were Kzinti? You know, given how Kzinti males are ‘Heroes’ and do all the fighting whilst Kzin females are sub-intelligent and really serve only one purpose.

    And how disconcerting to leave their basements and find themselves in a world of Hani.

    “You seem uneasy, Wanker To Pixels.”

  93. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    It seems to me he is just asking an honest question…

    It’s his method of trolling. His questions aren’t honest, but leading. You would know that, unless you have some sympathies with the MRA contingent…

  94. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    The point at which a general observation is made to make individuals feel uncomfortable because they superficially belong to a particular group being condemned or criticized, is the point usually designated as “racism”, “sexism”, etc. – stefanels

    1) No, it’s not, by people who actually know what “racism” and “sexism” mean.
    2) Oddly enough, even though I’m a white man (and, yes, cisgender, heterosexual, able-bodied, not fat), I just don’t seem to feel “uncomfortable” in the way you evidently do, when the conversation focuses on how unpleasant or unthinking members of the privileged groups I belong to behave. Perhaps I did, sometimes, some decades ago – but then I realized that if I don’t behave in those ways, then clearly, they’re not talking about me – or if they are genuinely expressing prejudice* against such a group, well, that’s really just a small offset to the privilege I have as a member of it.

    Shorter me: grow up and stop whining.

    * Prejudice, unlike racism and sexism, doesn’t imply that the thought or action concerned reinforces existing inequalities, and so can be aimed at any group, including a privileged one.

  95. Ichthyic says

    I think it might involve somewhere with an excess of fluffy bunnies. Possibly Australia.

    irony, considering bunnies are an invasive pest there!

  96. says

    glodson@ 115:

    I think this is dead on. There’s a core group of people like this, in any kind of bigotry. They create this myth. Women are bad and trying to take my rights! Why? Because a woman ruined my life, so they must be out to get us all! Black people are violent! Why? Because one shoved me!

    It is a great way to play the victim, to blame others for their failings, take no responsibility for their own wrong-doings, and still think of themselves as fair minded people. It creates a narrative shield which allows them to direct their hate without seeing how insane it is.

    I had a roommate in college who claimed that his hatred of/distrust towards black people was justified because a bunch of black guys beat him up one time. We dug a little deeper, and found out that he actually started the fight by telling them to “turn off their nigger music” in a public park. So much for his justification, don’t you think? I feel like most of these MRA types are pretty shitty towards women, and whatever offenses women have committed against them were not entirely unprovoked.

  97. Pteryxx says

    “You seem uneasy, Wanker To Pixels.”

    I’d nominate Chris Clarke for a Molly for that comment, but he’s already PZ’s highest-ranking minion.

  98. says

    I haven’t been following the latest discussions,

    This ^ tends to be problematic.

    but why are some people so hard on Abdul Alhazred? It seems to me he is just asking an honest question…

    AA has never asked an honest question here. They are a known person here, known for trolling, derailing threads and having many an ax to grind.

  99. says

    Caerie:

    It’s only been recently that I fully grasped that they were using their experiences as an excuse to embrace and demonstrate their sexism. That wasn’t a pleasant realization, but now I’m seeing it everywhere. Is it more common, or am I just noticing it now?

    I’m wondering the same thing. Now that I’m conscious of it, it seems to be everywhere. Maybe it always was, I don’t know.

  100. bobo says

    It’s only been recently that I fully grasped that they were using their experiences as an excuse to embrace and demonstrate their sexism. That wasn’t a pleasant realization, but now I’m seeing it everywhere. Is it more common, or am I just noticing it now?

    Remember the raging misogynist from last week who said that he hated women cuz ‘bitches were mean’ to his best friend?

    The more I think about it, the sexism, the feelings of *entitlement* are already there – and bad experiences just give these guys a reason to ‘hate all women.’ These men feel entitled to female submissiveness, so when a ‘bad experience’ comes along, they run with it, and say ‘look, I am right to HATE ALL WOMEN”. The fact is, they hate women b/c they are not being treated as ‘lord and master’, and this they cannot stand!

    I’ve worked as a stripper, and been objectified (once by a 400lb man throwing pennies at me b/c I wasnt up to his standards of beauty) and I have never ‘hated’ men. I’ve had married men proposition me for sex, and even then, I have not ‘hated all men’. I even knew one guy who was a sociopath, yet I was mature enough to realize *not all men are sociopaths*.

    p.s. funny stripper story, a girl I worked with told me how on a sat night, a guy in the audience told her that she was not pretty enough for his high standards. she replied “what kind of a loser is alone at a strip club on a saturday night”

  101. consciousness razor says

    Caine, Fleur du mal:
    “It’s extrapolating that to all women or men that’s disturbing.”

    Yet previously:
    “It’s rather scary to think that’s standard behaviour on the part of young men.”

    I agree with the first statement. The second statement, however, churns my guts, because it is in violation of the first statement, as I read it. Can you see where I am coming from?

    Maybe it’s the word “standard” you have an issue with:

    standard noun
    1. something considered by an authority or by general consent as a basis of comparison; an approved model.
    2. an object that is regarded as the usual or most common size or form of its kind: We stock the deluxe models as well as the standards.
    3. a rule or principle that is used as a basis for judgment: They tried to establish standards for a new philosophical approach.
    4. an average or normal requirement, quality, quantity, level, grade, etc.: His work this week hasn’t been up to his usual standard.
    5. standards, those morals, ethics, habits, etc., established by authority, custom, or an individual as acceptable: He tried to live up to his father’s standards.

  102. rapiddominance says

    Abdul Alhazred, if you’re still following the conversation:

    Notice how when Petrander asked up at #113–

    I haven’t been following the latest discussions, but why are some people so hard on Abdul Alhazred? It seems to me he is just asking an honest question.

    Nerd of Redhead then responds–

    It’s his method of trolling. His questions aren’t honest, but leading. You would know that, unless you have some sympathies with the MRA contingent.

    Also, the only reason you were bringing up Shermer was because you wanted to understand why some of the responses you were receiving were unnecessarily hostile. Any monkey could see that and I think its noteworthy that you were threatened with bannishment over such a detail.

    Pertender:

    What are your thoughts? Are you beginning to see for yourself the insidious nature of the subtle troll in question or are you starting to suspect that Abdul might be one of the few people here who wants to talk?

  103. Stacy says

    Wow. Classic sexist generalism.

    That’s what you’ve gotten out of this discussion, huh? Reading Kate Harding’s piece, reading all the comments, including the ones by Ogvorbis and The Mellow Monkey: Caerie, that comment is your takeaway?

    “What about the menz?” indeed.

  104. says

    Likewise,who gets killed in battle? Even in today’s American army, which has made muchof integrating the sexes and putting women into combat, the risks aren’t equal.*This year we passed the milestone of 3,000 deaths in Iraq, and of those, 2,938were men, 62 were women.

    An interesting statistic is the civilian-combatant death ratio. It doesn’t really matter whether each of the ratios reported here are entirely accurate or how many of the civilian deaths are women. The point is that non-military deaths in war, the numbers of which can be immense, are generally neglected. They’re not getting any parades. Nor are the women and men who’ve opposed militarism and war (you can read about some of them in Hochschild’s To End All Wars) generally treated as heroes, even if they suffered greatly for this cause.

    *This always amuses me. I was watching Red Tails recently, and this is related to the argument lobbed at the black pilots: they didn’t have as many “kills.” Their response was that they weren’t allowed on missions in which this would be possible. And of course they, like women in the military through the present, have had to deal with attacks, harassment, and just general bullshit from people in their own military.

  105. consciousness razor says

    The dictionary meaning of “standard” is not what I have an issue with.

    Then this isn’t the reason (even though you said it is) your guts are churning:

    because it is in violation of the first statement, as I read it.

    Either you do or don’t read it in a way that violates (contradicts?) the first statement, so either you do or don’t misinterpret the word “standard.”

    The seemingly easy connotation of “standard behaviour of young men” with “go all raging, vindictive hater after having their hearts broken” is, though. Am I wrong to dispute that?

    So it’s some kind of “seemingly easy connotation” that you have, which is the reason your guts are churning? Okay… I don’t know. If it should be disputed somehow (with evidence? gut churning?), shouldn’t you dispute that with yourself, preferably somewhere else?

  106. Nepenthe says

    Stefanels, why did you stop posting bunnies? That was much more interesting and insightful than the rest of your comments have been.

  107. says

    Am I wrong to dispute that?

    Yes. In case you didn’t notice, Stefanel, not one person on this thread had any difficulty in understanding me except you. What you’re doing is insisting on finding some way to justify your shout of “Sexist!”.

  108. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    then would you be able to see a disjunct between the legitimacy of your claims and theirs?

    You mean the disjunct between your claims and reality?

  109. FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker) says

    glodson @82

    And I have to to ask myself “would I see this if not for my daughter?” She’s turning 3 soon, and I don’t want her to grow up in a world where’s she treated like a second class citizen, where she has to deal with some of the evil and just blood-boiling things I’ve read in these comments.

    I too have a young daughter, and while I was aware in that vague privileged pandering sort of way about feminist issues her birth pushed me to “take the red pill” as Caine said.

    But here’s the thing: it isn’t the girls we need to educate. Okay, of course we need to do everything we can to educate them and empower them and keep them from internalising misogynist cultural memes, but that’s not enough. T hat’s not near enough. Without raising the boys in the same way, with an added great big heaping helping of ‘Women are people, full fucking stop.” the world will not change in any meaningful way.

    I’ve been struggling with this, I was so happy when the OBGYN pointed my daughter at me genitals first in response to my query as to the sex of that screaming, bloody, slimy bundle o’ joy and I realised I had a daughter. I naively felt that I could do more for the world by raising a strong, independent daughter into a strong independent woman than I could by raising such a boy into such a man. Stupid I know, but there it is.

    The only thing I can think to do is to get involved in my daughter’s cohort by, what exactly I don’t know. Teaching something or volunteering as a coach maybe. That way I can be involved in her peer group as a counter example to the more toxic notions of masculinity that are pretty prevalent in this rural town.

    I want to change the world, this is not just empty rhetoric, but I realise that the only realistic effect I can have is right here, right now in my little corner of it. One tiny step at atime, from many, many people and maybe we’ll see things shift beyond our wildest dreams. Here’s hoping.

  110. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Read the original post I was commenting on.

    We have, you lose, loser. Try again without your biases, and your mind active. OOPS, that’s right, you can’t do that…

  111. says

    FossilFishy:

    I realise that the only realistic effect I can have is right here, right now in my little corner of it.

    That goes for all us, no matter where in the world we find ourselves. This is why it’s important for people to speak up and speak out, especially when it comes to casual speech, say at the pub, or in a backyard during a barbie, things like “I’d like to nail that, eh?” or “silly bitch” or “men are stupid” or the thousands of other things which slip out all over the place and are never called out or questioned.

  112. consciousness razor says

    That’s much better, stefanels. Bunnies are nice. Keep fighting the good fight!

  113. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Dang, going to have to buy a new zip drive for all the bunny clips….The Redhead loves bunnies.

  114. omnicrom says

    Chris you are doing a wonderful thing to make this a kinder, gentler, more pleasant comment thread all around. Keep up the good work.

  115. unclefrogy says

    that excuse argument that I hate “x” because “x” hurt me in the past so “X” must want to hurt everyone like me would only take root in the mind if there were already a place that said that “x” was different than me in some significant way in the first place. The argument is BS.
    So it is not so big of a step if the other is not understood and seen as different. That, I believe, is the root which PZ was alluding to previously when he said we are all sexist and by extension racist. That ignorance of each other leads often to projection of our fears and resentments on the other. We are all subject to it related to our knowledge of the other who we see as “different” for ourselves.

    uncle frogy

  116. says

    Omnicrom:

    Chris you are doing a wonderful thing to make this a kinder, gentler, more pleasant comment thread all around.

    The Bunny Method™ is good. Now, to convince PZ to utilise The Cephalopod Method…

  117. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    but I am very open to the idea that I am wrong

    Nope, you aren’t, otherwise you wouldn’t have posted fuckwittery here today. Try again without the attitude and presuppositions you are right. Start with the null hypothesis you are wrong, and need evidence…

  118. Ichthyic says

    That last of mine, of course, wasn’t intended for Ichthyic. Because Ichthyic wouldn’t care about being tossed into water.

    already there, man, already there…

  119. chigau (Chiggers) says

    A work in progress
    What Caine said

    I didn’t go all raging, vindictive hater over it.

    stefanels

    young men are “all raging, vindictive haters”…

    all for naught.

  120. says

    Oh, I don’t know Chigau. There’s something about having the rebuttals stay up post-lagomorph that probably drives the MRAs even battier, I’d like to think. Like “I have long ears and buck teef and I MUST SCREAM.”

  121. FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker) says

    Yup Caine, I’m doing my best. I will not let that kind of talk slip by unopposed. A culture is made up of the actions of the individuals within it. So it seems to me that the way to change culture is to engage from the bottom up by calling out the actions of individuals whist at the same time pushing for top down legislation.

  122. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Like “I have long ears and buck teef and I MUST SCREAM.”

    Since I held the rabbits while the Redhead cleaned the cage, more like”…buck teef and I must BITE”. Usually my knee area. But then, their liddle bladders were only good for about 20 minutes, and the Redhead took longer with trying time for the litter tray…

  123. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Dang, offering to Tpyos in #169. Drying time rather than trying time, although the time have been trying for the bunnies.

  124. says

    Chris:

    Thankfully, I have not outside of recordings, Caine. Sorry for putting that thought in your head.

    Thank you, but it’s not your fault I have a nasty memory. I had the misfortune to be on hand one day when an eagle took a rabbit. There are lots of reasons in the sky as to why I have monster-sized dogs and the cats are only allowed outside within their large kennels.

  125. Seize says

    I guess a Jezebel shoutout is as good a time as any to chime in. Long time reader here, longtime jackass commenter on Jez. Not that AA was asking with any sobriety, but I’d like to just say that I have enjoyed the translation of MRA rhetoric to actual aggression for many years as an active, opinionated and “out” woman on the internet. I’ve had simple arguments devolve into stalking, rape threats and death threats more times than I care to recall, and in the last 4 weeks on Jezebel’s new commenting platform I’ve heard about three women receiving threats of having their nyms outed to family or coworkers, for no crime greater than having an opinion.

    The internet is real life. These MRAs – and the silent lurkers they embolden – have a massive impact on real women.

  126. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Chris Clarke #172.

    We had rabbits when the B&W movie was shown on a local station. The Redhead thought having the rabbits out to watch the movie would be interesting. Well, they did pick up the grunts for a while, but over all, scrared looking rabbits do not a horror movie make.

  127. says

    Seize:

    The internet is real life.

    Oh, yes it is. I’ve finally stopped being surprised by all those who pretend it isn’t, that it’s all some kind of magical pretend and that the second someone is away from the keyboard they disappear in a sprinkle of glitter or something.

  128. Seize says

    The idea that an information disseminating medium of unprecedented efficiency would have zero impact on social conduct of individuals using it is just absurd.

  129. says

    The internet is real life. These MRAs – and the silent lurkers they embolden – have a massive impact on real women.

    It;s worth noting that they’ve been declared a hate group/movement by the SPLC (who aren’t necessarily infallible, but…).

    ***

    Welcome aboard, Seize.

    Speaking of which, I have waves at the bottom of my screen. I like the waves. Please keep the waves.

  130. says

    Seize:

    The idea that an information disseminating medium of unprecedented efficiency would have zero impact on social conduct of individuals using it is just absurd.

    Of course it is. Just as absurd as the arguments a la “I’m a software engineer and silicon valley isn’t tearing itself apart over this sexism nonsense!” which we’ve been hearing on the Shermer thread.

  131. Seize says

    SC, I believe that the proper parenthetical for describing MRAs to parties so fortuitous to be uninitiated is “, designated as a hate group by the SPLC.”

  132. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Oh, another bunnie video coming up. Somebody hasn’t gotten the message to move on…

  133. FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker) says

    Hmmm, those are some fine blockquoting skillz stefaneIs, shame you can’t make any kind of real argument.

  134. bobo says

    michael D, that guy replied to you

    question, how does one even respond to bs like this:

    The sacrifice discussed is in war and armed combat, not military service. The two are linked in that men in the military are obligated to fight in combat if required and are therefore available to be sacrificed for the sake of others. Most men join the military for the benefits and hope to never be placed in harms way. That is why you occassionally have servicemen who resist being deployed to combat zones (and seemingly a disproportionate number of female servicemembers resist deployment even though they will not be directly placed in combat). The thousands of men who were drafted were obligated to fight when called simply because they were males. Even in the U.S. today, men are legally required to register for the selective service so that can easily be called upon during a draft. Yes, men are sacrificed for the benefit of others.

    Pregnancy is a natural biological phenomenom that the vast majority of women experience at some point in life. In modern western nations, women are not obligated to give birth. Most do because most want to be mothers and most want to experience a life growing inside of them. Female mammals of practically all species similarly experience live births. That is not sacrifice. That is nature. War is not natural. That is why men who have experienced it suffer from post traumatic stress syndrome. They leave war mentally scarred and often suicidal. War is a sacrifice. Pregnancy is natural even that can, on rare instances, become complicated.

    I heard a fellow make the claim that women can get the right to abortion and contraception if men did not have to register for selective service, ‘only fair’ he said.

  135. Rob says

    Me –

    A messed up angry and hurt young man is more likely to fall prey to older MRA’s around them.

    Rey Fox –

    The culture of male entitlement is there to push them along that path as well.

    Oh indeed it is. The whole growing up and finding yourself thing is ‘complex’ (checks over shoulder to see if PZ is scowling at use of that word given EP discussion) and perhaps some people are better prepared or luckier than others.

    I was probably saved by the fact that when I was going through that particularly nasty breakup two of three of my best friends were women. It’s probably a good thing not to be in an echo chamber when you’re down and angry.

    Chris – like the background, suitably outdoorsy and nondescript. Here in NZ bunnies are a pest. However, if you’re going to drown Stefanels do it humanely.

  136. caveatimperator says

    @Bobo, comment 189

    I heard a fellow make the claim that women can get the right to abortion and contraception if men did not have to register for selective service, ‘only fair’ he said.

    Ask them why they’re not pushing to have the rules of the draft changed, so women have to register too? If he’s so interested in fairness, lead him along a little bit.

  137. Janine: Hallucinating Liar says

    Bunnies aren’t just cute like everybody supposes,
    They got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses,
    And whats with all the carrots?
    What do they need such good eyesight for anyway?
    Bunnies, Bunnies, it must be bunnies!
    …. Or maybe midgets?

    Anyone want to watch Night Of The Lepus?

  138. bobo says

    Some MRA’s seem to believe that men do not have the right to bodily autonomy b/c men ‘might’ be drafted. This is how they see it, apparently.

    Kinda stupid though. Take WW2, if everyone had been drafted to fight overseas, who the fuck was gonna work in the factories??

    And I could be wrong, but pregnancy and childbirth are kinda *ongoing* whereas war is a thing that *might* happen!

  139. stefanels says

    Caine, Fleur du mal:

    I had my heart broken when I was young, too. Didn’t most of us? I didn’t go all raging, vindictive hater over it. It’s rather scary to think that’s standard behaviour on the part of young men.

    Standard behaviour on the part of young men. Then sarcasm and appeal to authority, deflecting the need to justify the stereotypical characterization of broken-hearted young men:

    I wouldn’t be going by anything people actually write or anything. Nope.

    I wouldn’t know. Tell me whom you are referring to, and what they wrote, and why we should listen to them.

    Is this an ego thing? Or are you big enough to admit that characterizing the standard behaviour of heart-broken young men as “all raging, vindictive hater[s]” was overstating your case?

    Or perhaps you would prefer dismissing me, by warren, by proxy.

  140. Janine: Hallucinating Liar says

    Dont’cha know, having baybeez is just as much a part of women’s lives as going of to war is part of men’s lives. Haven’t you noticed the large percentage of men from the US who have fought in the two longest wars in US history.

    That is why men should be able to not take part in selective service if the crazy bitches are allowed to be all slutty by using contraceptives and have abortions.

  141. bobo says

    I have asked him, Caine.

    Another version I have heard is this:

    “if men are forced to go to war for the benefit of country, then women should be forced to have babies, for the benefit of country”

  142. kateharding says

    Just popping in to say: A) Thanks, Chris! B) Hi, Carlie! and C) This is a totally delightful and heartening thread to read–especially since I got here after Chris had already bunninated the worst eyerollers. Thanks very much to those of you who’ve had kind words for me. I don’t often comment anywhere these days, but I’ve been a Pharyngula reader for a long time, and it’s a real thrill to be featured here.

  143. Janine: Hallucinating Liar says

    Carlie, I have had that happen a couple of times. Such a strange feeling. Both humbling and self affirming in that some people value what you say, at the same time.

  144. Pteryxx says

    This is a totally delightful and heartening thread to read–especially since I got here after Chris had already bunninated the worst eyerollers.

    after this thread, I’m a fan of the bunnyhammer. (bunhammer?)

  145. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    The Pullet Patrol just opened a very large prepaid tab for Kate Harding. They want to keep the fire going…

    I bet she wasn’t expecting that.

    …does this mean Harding’s now received a Pullet Surprise for this article? ^.^

  146. hypatiasdaughter says

    And just WHO has been sending men off to war for thousands of years? It is women who have ruled nations and packed the seats in governments? Is it women who have declared war and sent men off to die? If you REALLY want to blame a sex for this, look into the mirror.
    These clueless gits buy into patriarchy, a hierarchical system that puts the rich and powerful men over the average man as much as it puts men over women.
    Historically, the average man has been compensated for his powerlessness by being given absolute power over “his” woman and “his” children. He might not be King but he can be “king of his own castle”.
    I think that’s why we see some push back from some posters – they know they are on the bottom of the male hierarchy and get mad when they are accused of being one of the powerful men who control it.
    I would have sympathy for them but not when they persist in supporting the system that oppresses both them and women. And NOT when they think it is all A-OK as long as women are kept on the rungs below them.

  147. chigau (Chiggers) says

    I know we don’t really know each other …
    and I don’t want to detract from your method of dealing with trolls…
    but can I have a bunny attached to one of my comments?
    I’m willing to say something really stupid.

    [No. - CC]

  148. David Marjanović says

    The hares are Lepus. Domestic rabbits are Oryctolagus; that presumably includes the killer rabbit.

    I haven’t been following the latest discussions, but why are some people so hard on Abdul Alhazred? It seems to me he is just asking an honest question…

    It’s quite obvious that you haven’t been following the latest discussions, petrander. You’re a rare commenter in general, and it shows.

  149. says

    I love that Night of the Lepus comes up in conversation and David surveys everything wrong with the movie and chooses to correct the taxonomy in the title.

    Truly I have found my people.,

  150. rq says

    Because I’m procrasting, I decided to read all comments on this thread.
    I will not confess to exactly how long it took me to realize that Chris was the one posting all those bunny videos, but it was about three or four videos in…
    Thanks for making this an awesome thread, Chris. This is an amazing group of people, and I really enjoy being a part of the crowd.

  151. vaiyt says

    *looks at all the posts substituted for bunny videos*

    Why do I have the impression that nothing of value was lost?

  152. Beatrice says

    Is it horrible of me that I now almost hope a troll will appear in Chris’ threads so that we can get bunny videos?

    Although, I have to say that little porcupine beats all the bunny videos with its cuteness.

  153. glodson says

    I feel like a real moron. All I could think was “why was that guy just posting bunny videos?” It took entirely too long to figure that that someone was editing the messages.

    But I am rather certain that my gut feeling is correct: the bunny videos were probably a more coherent post than what they replaced.

  154. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    …does this mean Harding’s now received a Pullet Surprise for this article? ^.^

    Ah, coffee helps with comprehension. ;)

  155. rodriguez says

    I was thinking on the things that you mentioned yesterday glodson. You said this: Like in family law. That’s a good issue to talk about, a rare example where a woman can have a slight advantage. Are you referring to custody cases? I’m not sure.

    This is one clear area “IRL” where MRA groups are very active and their logic is very toxic. The MRA talking point is that women overwhelmingly get custody in divorces and similar family cases, and that’s a bias against men. But, there is an important detail to look into that gets ignored. The divorces to look at are not uncontested divorces where the couple decides, without court intervention, that the mother will be assigned physical custody. In uncontested cases, the mother does get physical custody more than men, but it’s by mutual agreement by the couple.

    We need to take all those cases out to really consider any advantage of women over men before the law in custody cases. The stats we should look at are the contested cases only, where the court makes decisions about custody. I suspect the stats there do not reflect any advantage to women at all.

  156. bobo says

    Caine, the guy finally replied to your question about drafing women as well:

    Pregnancy is a complete biological process. The purpose of the female uterus is to carry a child. There is no debate on that. Pulling a trigger is not the purpose of a man’s finger.

    And to answer your question bobo, women can be eligible for the draft as far as I’m concerned, but should also be held to the same physical standards as men (you know, equality and all).

    Also, the fact that men are ultimately much more violent toward other men than they are toward women, yet women want some special protection from violence is sexist. Keeping women out of military combat is a form of protecting women from violence. Are you against that? You guys are all over the place..

    Did you know that gay men are twice as likely as heterosexual women to be the victims of domestic violence. But there is no Violence Against Gay Men Act. Only women want special treatment while yelling “equality” Sounds sexist to me.

    So why are men portrayed as the only perps of domestic violence? Sexism is the reason. Women are more sexist than men.

    And lastly, the Canadian military is widely known as a joke.

    MRA’s are just so amazingly batshit crazy. They literaly make shit up as they go along. Another one is lecturing me on the middle ages, and how rape never happened, cuz ppl lived in small communities, worked together, and died at the age of 25, so rape never occurred! Women were not treated as property back then, b/c ppl ‘farmed all summer and had sex all winter’. He told me I had no proof of anything b/c I lack a time machine!!!

    /boggle

  157. opposablethumbs says

    Great post by Kate Harding – and thank you for #53, Improbable Joe (my fingers always type “Improbably Joe” for some reason :) …). It’s good to have that ALSO being said “from the inside”, as it were.

  158. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    rq:
    Don’t worry, I think I figured it out pretty late toi, as I’ve just read the whole thread.
    ****
    stefanels=Al Stefanelli?

  159. jeffsutter says

    Its kind disgusting and very annoying that whenever an article or blog post reports on anything having to do with rape or women’s rights or feminism I know there are gonna be assholes in the comments spouting shit, that even if its a legitimate concern, is completely irrelevant.

  160. Ichthyic says

    There is an old saying, “drunk says what sober thinks.”

    there’s an even older one:

    In vino veritas.

  161. Ichthyic says

    Pulling a trigger is not the purpose of a man’s finger.

    indeed not. pull my finger to see what the purpose REALLY is.

  162. ChasCPeterson says

    The hares are Lepus. Domestic rabbits are Oryctolagus

    see but we call our hares ‘jackrabbits’ instead.