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Oct 19 2012

How not to be a good person

OK, kids, today I’m offering a simple lesson in basic human decency. I know most of you already know all this — I picked up on it when I was a child — but this is the internet, and a few of its resident have been raised by wolves or read too much Ayn Rand as a teenager, and they’ve lost some really basic principles.

  1. When someone is hurting, don’t spit on them because someone else is hurting more. It’s smart and sensible to invest your time and money wisely, and if you see two people in pain, you get to choose which one you’ll help first, and that’s fine. But it’s counterproductive and destructive to dismiss efforts to help the other person, and it’s particularly repellent if you choose to kick at the people who are helping someone you consider a lesser cause to the extent that you aren’t helping anyone at all.

    There’s a principle in medicine called triage—look it up. It does not mean “stick a knife in the patient you don’t want to help.”

    See? This is so simple. If you see someone donating money to prostate cancer research, don’t berate them because they should donate to breast cancer research instead, because you think it’s a more serious disease. Or vice versa. Both are bad, and it’s good that we have people supporting research into both.

  2. So you’ve decided to help someone — good for you. However, you shouldn’t then advertise your goodness and throw a tantrum if people don’t praise you enough. You especially shouldn’t then retract your offer of assistance because there wasn’t enough love given to you. You aren’t the one in trouble, and the situation isn’t about you at all.

    You see, that makes it obvious to everyone that you weren’t offering to help because you’re a good person: the offer was patently a bribe to win good will for yourself, and when you announce your refusal to help you’re really just trying to extort some flattery out of others. This is not good behavior.

    I hear a version of this all the time: don’t annoy the Christians with that atheism stuff or they might retract their support for science and science education. Well then, they weren’t really good supporters of science in the first place, were they?

I know, you’re all saying that was really obvious to the point of being stupid, but there are people on the internet who don’t understand these basic concepts. Sad, I know, but don’t get cranky if I occasionally reach out to help the ethically benighted in addition to bashing creationists and that sort of thing. There are many good causes we can all fight for.

126 comments

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  1. 1
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Short version: Wooly Bumblebee, you are a empathy lacking self serving asshole.

  2. 2
    Woo_Monster, Sniffer of Starfarts

    My jaw fucking dropped open when Wooly plopped that turd down at B&W.

    I bet you all feel bad that I am withdrawing my support for Greta because her friends are all meanies!!1111!!

    What an utter douche.

  3. 3
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Well, at least JS, John Brown and Wooly Bumblebee demonstrate that there are some people for whom “without god everything is possible” is actually true.
    No, you’re not good and decent because that’s the right thing to do. You must be pleaded with, begged, bribed, mollycuddled.
    No wonder you go along claiming all the time how “FTBUllies” are punishing people. Because reward and punishment are actually the only things you understand.
    Being good for goodness’ sake? Humbug!
    Helping somebody, no matter who, because they’re suffering? Don’t give me that!
    No, people must be deserving people. And not only do they have to be perfect and deserving, all their friends have to be, too, because if anybody of them ever dares to say as much as something not 100% positive about you, you stop helping and blame it on those people.
    You made me kick a puppy, I hope you’re proud of yourself!*

    *No puppies were hurt for this comment.

  4. 4
    Louis

    InB4 “HOW DARE YOU CRITICISE ANOTHER PERSON’S ACTIONS!!!! EXCUSE ME WHILST I NOW CRITICISE YOUR ACTIONS!!!!!!”

    Louis

  5. 5
    Alverant

    Do I want to know what triggered this post?

  6. 6
    blf

    No puppies were hurt for this comment.

    What an utter non-meanie! I cannot stand polite people like, like, like, you, you, girl!! With cooties! I’m going home to throw the toys outta my tram and, yes, kick a few puppies.

    And I’m not gonna read you’re comments either. So there! Pfffffffttt!!!11!1

  7. 7
    Louis

    Toys out of your tram?

    That’s a big playroom you have there.

    [Impressed]

    Louis

  8. 8
    bcmystery

    There is one tiny value to these awful people. “Don’t be a dick” lessons for my son are so easy with such ready examples available at the click of a mouse.

  9. 9
    Pierce R. Butler

    WB catalyzes a trip down memory lane with Sam the Sam & the Pharaohs.

  10. 10
    Pierce R. Butler

    (ahem!)

    In my # 9, that’s Sam the Sham. (Really, I hain’t a cockney…)

  11. 11
    Eric Saveau

    We need a little Carl Sagan optimism right now -

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY59wZdCDo0

    http://vimeo.com/48622108

    Sometimes Sagan doesn’t help much. Sometimes it really does seem that there’s just too damned much hateful asshattery in the world and you can barely make a fucking dent in it.

    We’ve just got to make sure that we have each other’s backs.

  12. 12
    anteprepro

    Things I have learned from the internet, Volume XXXIII:

    - You never have to care about anything, because there is always something more atrocious than the current atrocity and there is always something greater than the current good news. Everything bad is not THAT bad and everything good is not THAT good.

    - You can tell people that you are good and expect that they believe you, even when you say things completely inconsistent with that goodness.

    - It is perfectly legitimate to refuse to help someone because other people wrote mean things at you.

  13. 13
    bargearse

    Anteprepro @ 12

    Depressingly accurate. Sometimes it’s just fucking embarrassing to belong to the same species as some people.

  14. 14
    Leo Buzalsky

    There are people on the internet who don’t understand these basic concepts.

    And there are also people on the Internet that don’t understand that there are people who do good things not for the sake of being good but for their own self-interest of getting to relish in the praise they receive for being perceived as good.

  15. 15
    chigau (違う)

    Then there are those who make vague accusations about … stuff.

  16. 16
    Gregory in Seattle

    Why is it that common sense is so uncommon? And why is it that things like this post that shouldn’t need to be said, need desperately to be said again and again and again?

    Excellent work, Professor.

  17. 17
    Marcus Ranum

    Where are your (excellent) points made in the bible? Because that’s where all morality comes from, or something like that.

  18. 18
    montanto

    Unfortunately this “sky is blue” stuff can’t be said enough and we often forget.

    Thanks for spreading the word.

  19. 19
    Anthony K

    Let’s not forget sarahjess’ comment on Greta’s post itself:

    You have got to be kidding.

    I am sorry, but Greta, this is so very out of line. With all the causes and organizations that could actually use this money for much better purposes, you should just be ashamed of yourself.

    Everyone is having hard times, but this is disgusting. You made a choice to forgo medical insurance and make your job speaking and promoting your agenda. Now, those choices are creating trouble for you and you have the stones to ask, nay beg, for our money.

    My money goes to those who need it, not who are just “in a bind”.

    You have actively promoted thought policing, misandry and ridiculous agenda and you now want money.

    Shame on you.

    Shame on you. For getting cancer and having an agenda. Or something.

    And you really must read Woolly Bumblebee in the original Klingon at Ophelia’s to appreciate it:

    Ok, this shit has gone on long enough. Stephanie & Ophelia, you two need to back off and stop peddling your bullshit of labeling people you don’t like as horrible people. You both have engaged in horrible shit as well (may I remind you of the recent J. Vacula hate campaign) Guess what, people like John Brown and myself actually were supporting Greta and asking people to back off. I even donated to her and sent her a message of support. But fuck that right? We’re despicable assholes right? Well fine, then maybe we should live up to that and to hell with Greta. I’ll tell you what, why don’t you and Stephanie take care of Greta and we’ll just keep on pointing out what fucking assholes you people truly are. Bashing people that are trying to help? WOW! That is just going too far. I hope Greta appreciates all you have done for her, because now I’ll be retracting my video asking for people to donate to her. Too bad she loses out because her ‘friends’ are such asshats. But fuck her… You guys really could care less when it comes right down to it. You are both so pathetic. Way to go… Way to fucking go

    Later, JS shows he can’t read:

    The Bumblebee has more intelligence and more common sense than all of you combined. And today she demonstrated her humanity and compassion by rising above the bullshit to help another human being in need, and she even encouraged her followers to do the same.

    To be honest, I don’t like Greta Christina, but I was seriously thinking of following the Bumblebee’s lead and helping Greta Christina anyway due to the Bumblebee doing so, which set an example for me to be a better person as well. But now that you people are shitting on her, I am going to go with my original plan of simply not giving a fuck.

    markneil can’t read either:

    Awfully nice of you all to reject aid offered to Greta on her behalf simply because you don’t like the sources. I presume you’r willing to make up any potential loss this might cause Greta, given her upcoming medical bills. or do you believe your actions don’t have consequences? Perhaps it doesn’t matter to you if Greta has sufficient funds to pay her bills, so long as your beliefs go unchallenged? I’m curious, what have you all done for Greta so far? Cause Wooly, JTO and others have sent their best wish’s and encouraged financial support from their subscribers through their video’s. I see Ophelia has made a similar effort on her blog, but I see no such act on Zvan’s Blog. Awfully kind of Zvan to try and discourage support for Greta, while failing to promote it likewise among her own followers. Truly a caring, friendly community you have here.

    And later, just because misogyny’s HIGHlarious, raycumfart pops by to add:

    how come you atheism+ females are so god damn unfuckeble ? you all look like fucking ogres

    Remember all of this, when some piece of shit starts talking about the Slymepitters are really just as caring as everyone else, they just care to use slurs like “c*nt” and “tw*t” while caring.

    But calling someone a misogynist is the real slur.

    Honestly, the atheoskeptical community is by and large the worst collection of people I’ve ever encountered. And I’ve been around a lot of people.

  20. 20
    carlie

    and sarahjess didn’t even read it, because Greta clearly stated that she DOES have health insurance, it’s just that she’s going to lose income. And let’s not forget that about 60% of bankruptcies are due to medical bills, and of those 78% of them HAVE health insurance. It’s just that all insurance here sucks.

  21. 21
    bargearse

    Brownian @19

    I’d like to thank you for those quotes but I really can’t. It was bad enough to be reminded of the ones I’d already seen but sarahjess just takes the cake. The fuckers are actually enjoying this…and people wonder why I drink.

  22. 22
    Anthony K

    There are so many reasons to drink, bargearse. People who don’t realise that are simply hiding from the truth.

  23. 23
    chigau (違う)

    Hiding from the truth is one of the main reasons why I drink.

  24. 24
    bargearse

    Chigau

    bottoms up

  25. 25
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    I’m afraid to start drinking (beyond one (or two) beers, or a shot of scotch) because I don’t think I would want to stop. Or could stop.

  26. 26
    bargearse

    Ogvorbis

    Have a http://calmingmanatee.com/

  27. 27
    bargearse

    stuffed that up

  28. 28
    Banned Atheist

    Yah “The Amazing Asshole” tripped my trigger, fer sure. Long before I was calling out dudebros like him, I was calling out his ilk in the 4chan/b/ & Anon-sphere for the same type of heartless douchery. “Boys will be boys” can kiss my ass.

    We have to keep the pressure on Amazing Assholes and their ilk, my friends. Never let a bully do their thing without standing up to them. Eventually they do lose the taste if they are relentlessly targeted for targeting the innocent. It’s that “relentless” part that’s hard, especially when they’re prolific with their asshole-ism. Here’s my contribution to the cause, if anyone’s interested.

  29. 29
    vaiyt

    It’s How Dare You Like Things I Don’t, the humanitarian edition.

  30. 30
    Jackie, all dressed in black

    Jeezy-Creezy, that’s just unthinkably bitter, deluded and cruel. (Even for that crew) Hugs, cheers and best wishes to Greta and her supporters. All Hallows Read is coming up and her book would make an excellent gift or donation to your local library.

  31. 31
    Q.E.D

    @sarahjess

    Everyone is having hard times, but this is disgusting

    Yeah, “hard times” are everywhere, who else isn’t being diagnosed with cancer and unable to work within weeks of having a parent die?

    You made a choice to forgo medical insurance and make your job speaking and promoting your agenda. Now, those choices are creating trouble for you and you have the stones to ask, nay beg, for our money.

    Sarahjess, nothing like a long satisfying swig of Schadenfreude over another person’s cancer is there?

    *vomit*

  32. 32
    bargearse

    Banned atheist @28 I actually feel a little less stabby after reading that, thanks.

  33. 33
    inflection

    Another analogy I like for “triage” when faced with multiple places that need help, or that you think are deserving of more resources than you have: mixed strategies. It’s no good if all the resources go to one thing. We want resources to be spread out. If every person out of a lot of people basically flips a weighted coin to decide among all the places that deserve help, then resources will get distributed roughly in proportion to the usual weighting. People will weight problems differently and that’s fine — economic freedom (this is the real meaning of the free market) means that the distribution will automatically follow the distribution of weights, and problems will get about as much resource as people overall think they deserve.

    Now, there will be distortions. Advertising for causes means that the causes with the largest money pools (like breast cancer, arguably) get attention and possibly a disproportionate weighting compared to some “objective” standard of medical harm (of course, who decides that?). The profit motive means money gets dumped into ED and male pattern baldness because these sell. So there’s a role for disinterested entities like the NIH to be handing out pots of money. And in this scenario, by definition, the NIH will be best using its money handing it out to problems most people don’t think are worth donating to, but which, in their professional opinion, have scientific or medical value.

    Bear that in mind next time you hear somebody complaining about research into the mating habits of albino cave squirrels or whatnot. Maybe albino cave squirrels carry whitenose fungus and if we reduce the population we can save the bats so your evenings have fewer mosquitos.

  34. 34
    Anthony K

    And Renee Hendricks shows up with some WTFuckery:

    I will go out of my way to not stress Greta. I know it’s difficult to deal with an illness of any kind when you’re getting stress from multiple sources.

    However, I will not donate money. There’s a point in one’s life when, if making the decision to strike it out on their own as an independent worker/freelance, one makes sure that life’s possible pitfalls are taken into consideration. As a self-employed person with three children to take care of *and* having no insurance coverage myself, I’ve done exactly this.

    Still, it just amazes me that so many here are more than happy to vilify those who do wish to dig into their pockets and line Greta’s bank account. It tells me more than I’ll ever need to know about certain people.

  35. 35
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    However, I will not donate money. There’s a point in one’s life when, if making the decision to strike it out on their own as an independent worker/freelance, one makes sure that life’s possible pitfalls are taken into consideration. As a self-employed person with three children to take care of *and* having no insurance coverage myself, I’ve done exactly this.

    It’s good to know that in case anything happens to her we should just let her and her children starve because, duh, she wanted it that way.

    Fuck all that shit.
    When you’re diagnosed with cancer, your job is to fuck cancer and kick its ass. That’s a 24/7 job.

  36. 36
    Jackie, all dressed in black

    @ Inflection,
    Good point. I’ve had this discussion with friends several times. Some people work at soup kitchens. Some teach adult literacy. Some fund raise. Some people work toward the goal of national healthcare. Some people live vegan and/or bike rather than drive. Some people send needy kids to school. Some people are community organizers. Some people volunteer at hospice or visit shut-ins. Nobody has to do everything. Nobody could. But if we each do our best at one thing, or spread our efforts around to a few things we feel passionate about, we can make a big difference over the course of all of our lifetimes. An individual giving time or money to one cause does not rob another. Volunteering at a soup kitchen does not mean you don’t care about Special Olympics and donating to Special Olympics does not mean you don’t care about AIDs or cancer research. Vilifying people in need as if their need is unworthy is just plain pointless, not to mention inhumane.

  37. 37
    Banned Atheist

    @bargearse (#32) – Hehehheh… happy to help you feel less “stabby”! Nobody should feel stabby, if you ask me. Stabbiness is a grave injustice that has plagued humanity for far far too long, and I can’t wait until it is stamped out forever!

    BTW, what is stabby? :D

  38. 38
    Anthony K

    If you thought she couldn’t get any better, Renee added this gem:

    Except, Steph, there’s a point where one puts aside disagreements/etal and does something human. I happen to do that quite often. There are a number of people within FTB/A+ I completely disagree with and don’t even like very much. However, as a human being, I recognize and embrace empathy where it’s needed and warranted. I put aside petty crap and do what I’m able to do *as a human*. Try it some time.

    As I wrote there, ‘empathy’ apparently equals “you should have thought of this before you got cancer” to Renee.

  39. 39
    Banned Atheist

    @Brownian (#19)… yeah, “thanks” ain’t the right word, but thanks for dredging the bottom of pit so we didn’t have to slog through all the muck to find the biggest assholes on the webz ourselves. And thanks for the links, too… Er, I’ll be back in a bit, I have to, er, go speak to a couple trolls about a thing…

  40. 40
    Rutee Katreya

    I don’t need to internet at all today, apparently.

  41. 41
    anteprepro

    There’s a point in one’s life when, if making the decision to strike it out on their own as an independent worker/freelance, one makes sure that life’s possible pitfalls are taken into consideration.

    Holy fuck, what an asshole. Someone’s been masturbating to Atlas Shrugged. I assume she goes down to the ER every so often to wag her finger at people who should’ve seen shit coming and taken precautions against it, while pleading with insurance companies over the phone to reconsider covering those foolish and reckless enough to be 25% at fault in a near fatal accident. Fuck them and their medical bills, they should have had a trust fund, amirite?

  42. 42
    Anthony K

    That’s not even the pit. That’s on Butterflies and Wheels. I don’t have the stomach to read what these people write when they’re not trying to put on their human faces.

    What fucking scum. Absolute, shit-eating, those-organs-could-be-put-to-better-use-feeding-stray-dogs scum.

  43. 43
    Q.E.D

    What fucking scum. Absolute, shit-eating, those-organs-could-be-put-to-better-use-feeding-stray-dogs scum. – Brownian

    Wouldn’t feed those people’s organs to my dog, the vitriol and bile content might make her sick.

  44. 44
    anteprepro

    This just in.

    My heart is dangerously close to thawing. I’m sure it will pass.

  45. 45
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    #44 Whoa, that was quick. *applause, confetti, champagne corks popping*

  46. 46
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Nerd:
    Yeah, that was quick.
    I’m very happy for Greta.
    Not only does she *not* have to stress about money, but the generosity and good will of the atheist community has likely energized her mentally.

  47. 47
    hyperdeath

    There’s a principle in medicine called triage—look it up. It does not mean “stick a knife in the patient you don’t want to help.”

    So that’s why I didn’t get my first-aid certificate.

  48. 48
    Banned Atheist

    Here we go… UC Berkeley study from April: Highly religious people less driven by compassion than non-believers. We are more likely to help someone in need out of plain old compassion rather than because it’s expected or makes us look good.

  49. 49
    Hank_Says

    Sigh. I worked for Australian Red Cross for four years, not so long ago. We’d occasionally have people calling up demanding to know why we were collecting donations for victims of natural disasters in SE Asia, or New Orleans, or China, or Haiti etc when there were so many needy people in our own country. Despite my efforts to patiently explain that we were collecting donations for overseas as well as for Australia – not instead of – (and to not call them out on their thinly-veiled racism) some of them got rabid enough for me to hang the fuck up on them. I wonder if those same people would’ve been so haughtily principled about receiving overseas donations and assistance when we had our own massive bushfire disaster – Black Saturday – in 2009?

    Anyway, that’s what this fucking slimy two-fisted wanker reminds me of. Only he’s worse – he’s not just saying “don’t donate to Cause X because of Cause Y”, he’s sticking the boot in because he’s an irredeemable unethical selfish narcissistic little bastard.

    And once again, we see in hi-def 3D that rejecting supernatural theism is no guarantee that you can achieve minimal levels of decency and empathy. Fuck this godless Glenn Beck with a shoe.

  50. 50
    coleslaw

    Do I want to know what triggered this post?

    If you decide you do, click on the links in the pst itself.

  51. 51
    coleslaw
    Do I want to know what triggered this post?

    If you decide you do, click on the links in the post itself.

    Okay, now it occurs to me you were asking do you actually want to click on the links in the post. I’d say, not if you are having a bad day already. Or if you do, go look at puppy and kitty pictures right after. Or maybe squid.

  52. 52
    Anthony K

    Mandrellian, I had similar experiences working with a NFP here in Canada. Even when it came to donating for biomedical research, the occasional idiot would insist that their ten bucks not leave the province, lest it fall into the hands of some assholes in Toronto or worse. (It’s a western Canadian thing. Also, racism.)

  53. 53
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    Raised by wolves would be an *improvement* for these people. Wolves have much better morals.

  54. 54
    DLC

    I was raised by wolves. Really. and even I know better than to act like this. You people got no excuse.

  55. 55
    roses are red

    When I first skimmed this post, I thought maybe it was referring to what’s going on over at the Support Damon Facebook page. Damon wrote an ambiguously worded post to the effect that he was fucked by the blogosphere, and wondering at all the attention Jessica Alquist has gotten. People are taking it in all kinds of ways, some offering support, some accusing him of whining, some asking for their money back.

  56. 56
    Amateur

    One thing would make me just a wee bit happier, after a stiff drink, of course: That woild ne the real names of these brave citizens with their brave public comments about the weakest and injured. Then I could at least take some pleasure in someone’s misfortune without regret.

  57. 57
    Amateur

    I’d also like to be able to type better on mobile devices.

  58. 58
    John Morales

    [meta]

    Amateur Hour, yeah. Your brogue becomes etiolated by such media.

  59. 59
    spamamander, internet amphibian

    I *think* the stuff on the Support Damon page may be trolling. Damon’s had a bad habit of facebook posting weirdly offensive stuff for the lulz (all sorts of Romney support, for example). I’m hoping that’s what it is, anyway.

  60. 60
    roses are red

    The post on Support Damon has been taken down. Maybe for the best. But I would have preferred an explanation.

  61. 61
    Mattir, Another One With Boltcutters

    And then there’s this, From Abbie Smith herself:

    1– Wow. Making decisions based off of ‘what I want now, NOW’ rather than responsibly planning for what you want, and then acting all surprised when shit goes wrong? Thats their personality in a nut-shell.

    2– Hey remember that time my partner, who doesnt have insurance, almost died? We came home with a $695,000 hospital bill? Know how my partner has physical jobs and was unable to work in any capacity for four months, and we were living off my graduate student stipend? Remember when I had a fucking pledge drive for that? Oh wait, we didnt do that. We negotiated with the hospital (who would rather get something than bankruptcy–>nothing) and are paying it off with our own goddamn money. And we lived through the emergency-limited-income time because Im not a fucking child so I know how to save money for fucking emergencies?

    3– Seeing #2, remember how GRETA pulled a bitch diva ass move and wanted me banned from FreeOK, thus interfering with *MY* income from speaking gigs? Remember how moving the Slime Pit from ERV to here has cost me a *lot* of money from lost page views, that I could have really fucking used?

    Fuck her. Shit happens.
    ERV

    Lovely folks over there…

  62. 62
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Mattir:
    You actually ventured over there?
    How many showers have you taken?

  63. 63
    chigau (違う)

    Mattir #61
    Is the ERV quote from Facebook?

  64. 64
    Ingdigo Jump

    You know Abby you could have tried a fun raiser to you selfish little turd.

    Or are all your fans not generous enough to piss on you when you’re on fire?

  65. 65
    Anthony K

    Wait, what? ERV’s suggestion is to negotiate under threat of default?

    So, she’s pretty much got to be grateful to the social wasteland that is academia.

  66. 66
    jose

    “We came home with a $695,000 hospital bill … Remember how moving the Slime Pit from ERV to here has cost me a *lot* of money from lost page views, that I could have really fucking used?”

    Oh boy, so that’s what the monument and subsequent posts were about. Not a hateful celebration of a bunch of people obsessing over Rebecca Watson, but a resource – using those people to get a *lot* of money from incoming traffic to pay outrageous health bills. Goodness, this is tragic. :(

    She’s doing it for nothing now though, so I guess sheer hate played a role to some extent too.

  67. 67
    Ingdigo Jump

    @Brownian

    ERV seems to follow the same anti-union bullshit that “I had a rough time and everyone else shat on me so why should anyone else have it different”

    Come to think of it “I’m horrible and everyone else should be miserable” is Abby isn’t it?

  68. 68
    Ingdigo Jump

    @jose

    I doubt it, ad rev for a blog isn’t that great.

  69. 69
    John Morales

    [OT]

    Ing,

    ad rev for a blog isn’t that great

    Great enough that the difference can be used as justification for people who move their blogs to a different hosting entity.

  70. 70
    Ingdigo Jump

    @JM

    Yes, but it’s probably not THAT great (as in greater than or equal to said medical bill) You know something someone NOT dedicated to being a pain in the ass could have told from context

  71. 71
    John Morales

    Ing: my lack of dedication is not that great, either — yet it’s about as great as the greatness of those who switch blogging platforms and justify it (if only in part) on the basis of income gained thereby).

    (Your point, again?)

  72. 72
    anteprepro

    1– Wow. Making decisions based off of ‘what I want now, NOW’ rather than responsibly planning for what you want, and then acting all surprised when shit goes wrong? Thats their personality in a nut-shell.

    I’m current responsibly planning for the event that I suffer from amnesia by tattooing relevant information all over my body. So fuck Alzheimer’s patients and all the fucking HELP they get. Should’ve thought about the possibility of memory loss BEFORE you lost your memory.

    Hey remember that time my partner, who doesnt have insurance, almost died? We came home with a $695,000 hospital bill? Know how my partner has physical jobs and was unable to work in any capacity for four months, and we were living off my graduate student stipend? Remember when I had a fucking pledge drive for that? Oh wait, we didnt do that. We negotiated with the hospital (who would rather get something than bankruptcy–>nothing) and are paying it off with our own goddamn money. And we lived through the emergency-limited-income time because Im not a fucking child so I know how to save money for fucking emergencies?

    “I never take handouts from other people! I only bargain with people who know that I will never be able to pay them as much money as I actually owe them and pay them a fraction of the actual price. LIKE A REAL AMERICAN!”

    Fuck her. Shit happens.

    Indeed. Shit happens. Therefore, no one should help anyone, ever.

  73. 73
    Aratina Cage

    Oh boy, so that’s what the monument and subsequent posts were about. Not a hateful celebration of a bunch of people obsessing over Rebecca Watson, but a resource – using those people to get a *lot* of money from incoming traffic to pay outrageous health bills. Goodness, this is tragic. :(

    Yes. Very sad, isn’t it. If only Rebecca had known, she could have played it up and made Abbie a million. Too late now, I suppose.

    It also explains why PZ “owes” her $3.50 (or however much).

    You know Abby you could have tried a fun raiser

    True. Why didn’t she? Stirring up controversy on your blog for money (Ooop! Ooop! Dawkins ain’t gonna like that!) seems like it would be an awfully difficult way to bring in enough funds to cover medical expenses, especially given all the fallout. *shrug*

  74. 74
    Ingdigo Jump

    Also quite amusing that Abbie is bitching about Greta fund raising, when she went crying to the hospital to let them pay what they could.

    One person pays the whole amount the other mooches (using her logic) who is the adult taking responsibility?

  75. 75
    nms

    ERV is still terrible, but:

    Hey remember that time my partner, who doesnt have insurance, almost died? We came home with a $695,000 hospital bill?

    I can’t even comprehend this. You can buy a large house for that much. Maybe more than one large house.

  76. 76
    Ingdigo Jump

    Also why didn’t your partner have insurance, Abby. Aren’t you adults?

  77. 77
    Ingdigo Jump

    My point is, not to be nasty, but to illustrate that there’s nothing Greta could have done that wouldn’t have had Abby coming in to gloat like the spoiled little snot nosed brat she is.

  78. 78
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Yes, because not paying roughly 700.000$ you owe is really the adult and moral thing to do.
    I completely understand that you, as a normal, non-Mitt-Romney person can never actually pay that bill, but the fact is that you received services that cost money. The medication cost money (I suspect if Abbie worked in pharmaceutical or medical research she would still expect to be paid at the end of the month even though somebody didn’t pay their bill. Sorry Abbie, another 20 unpaid bills, this months it’s your turn to do without), doctors and nurses want their salary, the building costs maintanance. Generally, taking stuff without paying for it is called theft.* Generally, when you can’t pay for the good you bought they get reposessed, like your car, your mortage gets called in. Well, they won’t break your leg again.
    WTF does she think happens when a substantial part of hospital bills remains unpaid?
    First, of course, prices increase for everybody, just like the supermarket adds the lost revenue from theft to the normal prices. So, yes, Abbie Smith, you took other people’s money. Only they weren’t nicely asked and gave it to you freely.
    Second, hospitals can get bancrupt, too. Nurses and doctors are fired, they lose their income and their homes.
    Yes, Abbie Smith, that’s what your adult behaviour leads to.
    So, who’s the real irresponsible moocher who expects others to pay for their expenses?

    Oh, and about that lost income because of the slimepit**, why didn’t you go and plan ahead when you decided to become a hateful piece of shit?

    *No, I’m not in favour for jailing people for needing healthcare, I’m just going down the rabbit hole.

    **Yes, that lost you income, because it meant that many of your readers swore to never go there again

  79. 79
    hyperdeath

    Abbie Smith:

    Remember how moving the Slime Pit from ERV to here has cost me a *lot* of money from lost page views, that I could have really fucking used?

    Nasty mean National Geographic didn’t want to host her hate site? Aw diddums.

  80. 80
    nms

    WTF does she think happens when a substantial part of hospital bills remains unpaid?

    If she had been insured, her insurers would have paid significantly less as well. That process is one of the reasons medical bills in the US are so high.

  81. 81
    Amphiox

    Remember how moving the Slime Pit from ERV to here has cost me a *lot* of money from lost page views, that I could have really fucking used?

    She should have considered this possibility BEFORE starting the Slimepit thread.

    Isn’t she an adult?

  82. 82
    Matt Penfold

    Isn’t she an adult?

    Only for certain values of adult.

  83. 83
    carlie

    ERV seems to follow the same anti-union bullshit that “I had a rough time and everyone else shat on me so why should anyone else have it different”

    Not surprising, given that that’s her response for anyone who is raped and/or stalked as well: She had it happen to her and it sucked, so screw acting nice towards anyone else who has it happen to them.

  84. 84
    Matt Penfold

    Not surprising, given that that’s her response for anyone who is raped and/or stalked as well: She had it happen to her and it sucked, so screw acting nice towards anyone else who has it happen to them.

    I really don’t understand that attitude. I know she had a bad experience with the police as well, but surely the reaction to bad experiences to hope others do not have to face the same ordeal, not to tell those who do to grow a pair.

  85. 85
    anteprepro

    I know she had a bad experience with the police as well, but surely the reaction to bad experiences to hope others do not have to face the same ordeal, not to tell those who do to grow a pair.

    To understand it, look no further than libertarianism.

    Contemplate the mindset expressed in their privileged “Fuck them, I’ve got mine”. Who cares about others, since I am just fine? And now just twist and turn it a little and you have the unprivileged’s equivalent: “Fuck them, I didn’t get mine”. Who cares about others, since I had to suffer without others caring about me?

    You’re welcome. I will take my payment in $100 bills only.

  86. 86
    Ingdigo Jump

    I swear Abbie is The Magicman from Adventure Time. The moral of the story is some people are just jerks not worth your time

  87. 87
    johnmarley

    Thanks a lot, PZ. My opinion of humanity wasn’t low enough, already. I’m gonna go play Temple of Apshai browse ZooBorns for a couple of hours.

  88. 88
    zoebrain

    We’re all human.
    We all screw up sometimes.

    My first reaction on seeing the Amazing Atheist’s post on Amanda Todd was “so hurry up and die, slimeball”.

    Not exactly a humane response… not much better than his original offense, for that matter. The difference is that I thought it, I didn’t make a video of it, and within seconds (if that long), I realised that I was thinking like a slimeball too.

    Pot, meet kettle.

    Those of us merely human must realise that we’re not a great deal better than the assholes we rightly criticise. Sometimes the only difference is in impulse control.

    So while we should pour scorn, derision, and contempt upon actions that are contemptible, not “let it slide” or remain silent, we must also be ready to forgive, to realise that everyone screws up sometimes. Attack the actions without mercy, but not the person performing those actions.

    If, like most people, they are actually pretty good in most respects, they’ll eventually thank you for steering them straight. It’s painful, humiliating, I really don’t like doing it, but I’ve had to apologise for my own screw-ups in the past, and no doubt will have to do so again in future. I try to minimise these occasions, if only to reduce my own feelings of guilt and pain, but it’s not humanly possible to prevent them entirely, just reduce incidence and severity.

    Pragmatically, you get better results by saying “What you did was despicable – you’re better than that – please take a look at what you did” rather than saying “What you did was despicable, you unregenerate asshole, I hope you die in a fire”.

    Even if they truly are “unregenerate assholes”, maybe they can reform. Not always, perhaps not even usually, but it’s worth it if you can just convert one waste of oxygen, one mound of ambulatory offal, and help them become the half-decent human being they have the potential to be.

    You don’t have to be a doormat; you do sometimes have to be unreasonably forgiving of the person, though not the action.

  89. 89
    Ingdigo Jump

    Pot, meet kettle.

    Fuck meet you

  90. 90
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Zoebrain, your concern is noted…end of story.

  91. 91
    Amphiox

    Pragmatically, you get better results by saying “What you did was despicable – you’re better than that – please take a look at what you did”

    This has already been tried long ago with TAA.

    This isn’t like his first display of utter shitheadedness.

    Ever heard of “three strikes and you’re out”? Or “fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me/(don’t get fooled again)?”

    TAA is well past strike eight and counting.

    If, like most people, they are actually pretty good in most respects, they’ll eventually thank you for steering them straight.

    TAA isn’t.

  92. 92
    Ingdigo Jump

    I hate this shaming people for not forgiving abusive assholes. Seriously go fuck yourself. Pot kettle for being an abusive ass and being mad at an abusive ass? FUCK YOU

  93. 93
    chigau (違う)

    Fuck “forgive”.
    What does it even mean?

  94. 94
    Ingdigo Jump

    @Chigau

    it means look over there and don’t hold me accountable

  95. 95
    chigau (違う)

    Ing
    I understand the concept of God™ ‘forgiving’ a ‘sin’ because that is just a basic commercial transaction.
    The actual stuff involving actual people baffles me.

  96. 96
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    Zoe, if you’re who I think you are, then you are a terrific person and I’m a fan, but you are completely mistaken here. This is not a one-off, this is a consistent and long-term pattern of behaviour.

  97. 97
    Ingdigo Jump

    @Alethea

    Well you know you’re just as bad as AA for being mad at him.

    Zoe can piss off and die for all I care

  98. 98
    Ingdigo Jump

    ok not piss off and die but seriously, the forgiveness shame pisses me off to no end.

  99. 99
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Those of us merely human must realise that we’re not a great deal better than the assholes we rightly criticise. Sometimes the only difference is in impulse control.

    Which is what makes all the difference.
    The difference between wanting to beat up somebody and beating them up is a violent crime, not something for mental masturbation.

    As for the forgiveness: Fuck that bully-enabling shit. Because in order to earn it, people must actually be sorry and change their ways.
    All those we’re talking about have shown time after time again that they actually don’t think they’re doing something wrong.
    To just forgive them and act as if everything is ok just gives them more power.

  100. 100
    unclefrogy

    in general I am often ready to forgive but even the Catholics require confession and asking for forgiveness so who am I to do any different.
    I however, see absolutely no reason to forget and pretend what ever it was did not happen nor to expect that it will be different next time.

    uncle frogy

  101. 101
    vaiyt

    @zoebrain

    Sorry, forgiving the unrepentant is for Catholics and the foolish. I am neither.

  102. 102
    zoebrain

    Maybe I should explain more, since what I said has been misinterpreted by so many. ie it’s not you who has a problem, it’s me whose failed to make myself clear.

    Looking at it pragmatically, what’s most useful?

    I really doubt AA sees himself as being the asshole he is. Somehow, since other techniques haven’t worked, we’ve got to get inside his head, find the reason for his assholery, and work together to end it.

    Now he may like being an asshole, some do. Not much you can do about that, except try to help them figure out why they like it, then bombard them with Kantian philosophy to show that it’s self-destructive.

    In order to defeat an enemy, you must first understand them. That might mean using litres of brain-bleach afterwards, and whoever said “to understand all is to forgive all” obviously never tried it. I’ve gotten into the heads of some people who obviously require neutralising so they can do no further harm — immurement or execution.

    Insulting harmful people doesn’t help. For example, the comments commanding me to “Fuck Off” – it took me a while to lower my BS filters enough to not just ignore them, but try to see why they felt that way, and to ask myself if they had a point.

    I guess I didn’t emphasise enough the bit about “condemning the act without mercy”, and people thought I was just going to “forgive and forget”, to “act as if everything is ok”.

    It’s not. The act stands as it does, and until there’s some genuine understanding on AA’s part that he screwed-up big time, we have unfinished business. This is not a one-off, it’s a pattern of behaviour, no we can’t forget it.

    we should pour scorn, derision, and contempt upon actions that are contemptible, not “let it slide” or remain silent…

    Attack the actions without mercy…

    You don’t have to be a doormat…

    Not exactly “bully-enabling”, is it?

    vaiyt wrote:

    Sorry, forgiving the unrepentant is for Catholics and the foolish. I am neither.

    Why be sorry? It’s because you disagree, you don’t want to hurt me, but you do want to make a point you think is important, that zoe brain is full of shit again. And if I do get upset, that’s unfortunate, but necessary. That’s exactly the kind of attitude that’s most likely to get results.

    I repeat: we do not have to be doormats. We do not have to, and should not, tolerate AA’s behaviour. If we are to get him to stop doing it though, insults, no matter how justified, won’t help. Demonising him, and telling ourselves that he’s some subhuman lifeform, the Common Asshole, that’s inferior to us not only doesn’t help but is likely incorrect too.

    I think Alethea H. “Crocoduck” Dundee knows who I am, and has at least a clue as to the amount of used food I’ve had to endure in my life. Not all, I doubt they know the tally of broken bones, burns etc. I don’t publish everything about myself, no need. The thing is, at some point things can get so bad that you either become bitter and twisted, or unreasonably forgiving, seeing those who are torturing you as basically good people gone terribly wrong. Then you realise how egotistical you’re being, infantilising them and not treating them as adults, responsible for their own actions. Not respecting them – and that’s the greatest insult of all.

    For those who have directed so much venom towards me in their replies – please pick the reply least offensive to you from the list below.

    1) My Bad, sorry I wasn’t clear
    2) De Nada, I’ve been called worse for less reason, don’t worry about it
    3) Go stick your head up a dead bear’s bum, you pus-filled syphilitic chancre on the arse end of the universe.
    4) I forgive you

    Actually, strike 4) from the list, I can’t imagine that not being offensive.

  103. 103
    zoebrain

    See this review of 2 books in the NYP.

    “Ascent of the A-Word: A-holism, The First Sixty Years”
    “A–holes: A Theory”

    An absurdly unjustified sense of entitlement is critical to a-holism, James points out. Edwards probably felt that he was a tireless advocate for the poor, just as Steve Jobs’ “knowledge of how much people love his gadgets could potentially explain why he felt entitled to park in handicapped spaces, skimp on philanthropic giving and intentionally hurt his associates. As Jobs’ best friend, Jony Ive, explains, ‘When he’s very frustrated . . . his way to achieve catharsis is to hurt somebody. And I think he feels he has a liberty and license to do that.’ ”

    Be honest: A postseason Sox/Yanks game wouldn’t be nearly so important if you weren’t thinking about how unhappy the other side will be in defeat.

    “That’s how a lot of partisans think of themselves, as in the business of infuriating the a-holes on the other side,” says Nunberg. Notice that in the presidential debates, Obama partisans cheered when Joe Biden acted like an a-hole for precisely this reason.

    I’m not into Gridiron, Baseball etc. Even if I were, surely I’m better than that, right? I’d never get pleasure just from infuriating an asshole on the other side….

    Er… um… well, apart from the times I make Fundies’ heads explode when I talk about the biology of Intersex. And the pleasure I feel dismembering the nonsense of YEC. And… OK, Guilty as charged.

  104. 104
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    In order to defeat an enemy, you must first understand them.

    Then you go at it. Take responsibility for your course of action, or shut the fuck up. That was our point. Leave us out of it, as many of us have no interest in even attempting such idiocy. When somebody isn’t listening, it isn’t worth your time trying to change their minds.

  105. 105
    Aratina Cage

    Notice that in the presidential debates, Obama partisans cheered when Joe Biden acted like an a-hole for precisely this reason.

    What? That is Fox News bullshit. Biden did not act like an a-hole during the vice presidential debate.

  106. 106
    reliwhat

    Oh man, again with the hate. I see so many people on this site not willing to argue. It’s the “you are with me or you are against me” mentality. And, sure, i’m not talking about everyone on this site, but still. I bet i’m gonna get a truck load of shit just for pointing out the hate. Open your mind people and stay calm.

  107. 107
    chigau (違う)

    reliwhat
    Why can you capitalize “I” at the beginning of a sentence but nowhere else?

  108. 108
    Amphiox

    And reliwhat vividly demonstrates that it doesn’t have a clue as to what the word “hate” actually means.

  109. 109
    Ingdigo Jump

    1) My Bad, sorry I wasn’t clear
    2) De Nada, I’ve been called worse for less reason, don’t worry about it
    3) Go stick your head up a dead bear’s bum, you pus-filled syphilitic chancre on the arse end of the universe.
    4) I forgive you

    Actually, strike 4) from the list, I can’t imagine that not being offensive.

    And yet you still said it anyone

    I very rarely have seen someone write such a TLDR which says nothing.

    We heard and understood you the first time you pompus ass

  110. 110
    Ingdigo Jump

    @Chigau

    Taking a guess: On phone which will auto cap the start of a sentence?

  111. 111
    Ingdigo Jump

    I’m not into Gridiron, Baseball etc. Even if I were, surely I’m better than that, right? I’d never get pleasure just from infuriating an asshole on the other side….

    Er… um… well, apart from the times I make Fundies’ heads explode when I talk about the biology of Intersex. And the pleasure I feel dismembering the nonsense of YEC. And… OK, Guilty as charged.

    Ok I repeat, you fucking ass, we understood pot meet kettle the first time (oh btw, the “you didn’t like what I said? you must have misunderstood me let me explain again SLOWER AND LONGER” is absurdly annoying). People are taking some fucking exception that you’re either so blinded, morally bankrupt, naive, or moronic to conflate confrontation with fucking bullying rape and suicide victims and being a socopathic ass.

    Goddamn it, how do people this fucking dumb where apparently simple concepts and shiny objects baffle them, manage to keep themselves alive?

  112. 112
    Ingdigo Jump

    Insulting harmful people doesn’t help. For example, the comments commanding me to “Fuck Off” – it took me a while to lower my BS filters enough to not just ignore them, but try to see why they felt that way, and to ask myself if they had a point.

    Ok so did it help or didn’t it?

    And yes it does fucking help. I don’t CARE about TJ, I do care that people like him are made unwelcome in decent spaces and that there is incentive even for horrible people to at least have to pretend to be decent.

  113. 113
    chigau (違う)

    Ing
    ah, i see
    I don’t have truck with those new-fangled devices.

  114. 114
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Oh joy. reliwhat is still here? Are you still defending TJ, The Amazingly Sexist Asshole Atheist?
    I see you’re still stuck on “people being mean to me because the things I say mark me as a shithead=people hate me/I’m being bullied/I’m being harassed”. Let me buy you some wheels for that cross you’re lugging around.

  115. 115
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    What is that load of malarkey @ 88?
    Naive optimism infected with God’s love?

  116. 116
    zoebrain

    Ing – for future reference – it’s spelled “pompous”.

    At a guess, you’ve never had to counsel a rape victim – or been one yourself. You’ve never had to talk someone down from a suicide attempt, knowing that if you put a foot wrong, they’ll complete, and also knowing you haven’t got the faintest idea what you’re doing, and are having to play it by ear.

    You’ve never been held down, urinated upon, spat upon, or had cigarettes stubbed out on your neck and hands. Never had a skull fracture from an assault with a crowbar. Never had a bullet wound. Never had to help a friend recover from brain injuries suffered in a multi-hour torture/rape/murder which didn’t quite kill her. You’ve never saved lives – or taken them when that was necessary.

    I’m shaped, like all of us, by my life experience (and yes, those aren’t hypotheticals to me, been there and done that in all of ‘em). Serious, 3D stuff, not gasbagging on the net, trying to show how much more committed to justice you are than the next person, by use of semantically loaded language and vituperative insult.

    No matter. What’s important is preventing this stuff, any way we can. We differ on methodology, that’s all. Ranting on the net may be cathartic, but it can be better to harness the anger as an energy and go out and do something concrete. Otherwise it can degenerate into self-indulgency, feeling good about feeling superior.

    You have a lot of anger, a lot of passion. You can use that to make a difference, if you want to.

  117. 117
    zoebrain

    Tony – re #88

    I don’t believe in gods, myself. Not Big Ones like Allah, Brahma and Zeus. Not Huitzilopochtli, nor Amaterasu, nor the Rainbow Serpent or Coyote. Not the multitude of Djinns, Efreets, Cherubim, Seraphim, Angels, Archangels, Principalities, Thrones and Powers in various sects of Jewish Heresy – Protestantism, Sufism, whatever.

    At best, religion is “mostly harmless”, but it’s hardly ever at its best.

    That’s not to say I’m not as superstitious and credulous as any worshipper of Xenu, or wearer of magic underwear, or Cargo cultist. While Games Theory and Kantian Logic provide powerful and convincing evidence, even if they didn’t, I’d still believe in the concept of “Good”.

    No need for any Flying Spaghetti Monster or Invisible Pink Unicorn to believe that. Be Kind. Temper Justice with Mercy. Prevent harm, by force if necessary, even deadly force, but not as a first and only resort. Try not to be a bigger asshole than necessary.

  118. 118
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Otherwise it can degenerate into self-indulgency, feeling good about feeling superior.

    It’s amazing how well you have captured the impression I got from your comments.

    I’m sorry about the things you went through.

  119. 119
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    There’s just something about (not so) random capitalization that makes me go Berserk.

  120. 120
    Rutee Katreya

    At a guess, you’ve never had to counsel a rape victim – or been one yourself. You’ve never had to talk someone down from a suicide attempt, knowing that if you put a foot wrong, they’ll complete, and also knowing you haven’t got the faintest idea what you’re doing, and are having to play it by ear.

    Which has shit all to do with telling horrible people that they are being horrible, in unequivocating language.

    You’ve never been held down, urinated upon, spat upon, or had cigarettes stubbed out on your neck and hands. Never had a skull fracture from an assault with a crowbar. Never had a bullet wound. Never had to help a friend recover from brain injuries suffered in a multi-hour torture/rape/murder which didn’t quite kill her.

    I have had some of that shit happen directly to me. I am far more partial to the idea of telling horrible people they are fucking horrible people.

    You’ve never saved lives – or taken them when that was necessary.

    The fuck kind of superman routine are you trying to pull here, exactly?

    o matter. What’s important is preventing this stuff, any way we can. We differ on methodology, that’s all

    No, this is categorically false; nobody here went to where you are, and told you that you were a terrible person doing it wrong and everything they did was JUST AS BAD AS HORRIBLE PEOPLE BULLYING RAPE VICTIMS YO.

    You are a liar. We differ greatly in our unwillingness to backstab people we claim to only differ on methodology over.

    You have a lot of anger, a lot of passion. You can use that to make a difference, if you want to.

    You are a condescending little asshole, aren’t you?

  121. 121
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    You are a condescending little asshole, aren’t you?

    QFT

  122. 122
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    They really are almost comically awful at this point, aren’t they? I mean, going out of your way to attack and dismiss the pain of someone who’s just lost a parent and been diagnosed with cancer, and using this attack and dismissal as an opportunity to sing your own praises and bemoan your lost blog income?* We all behave regrettably sometimes, but I don’t think if I actually sat down and focused and tried to imagine the least decent response I could have to this situation that I could come up with that.

    *And by the way, if anything was predictable in this series of events it was that those threads (at least) would not last long after NatGeo took over.

  123. 123
    Ingdigo Jump

    At a guess, you’ve never had to counsel a rape victim – or been one yourself. You’ve never had to talk someone down from a suicide attempt, knowing that if you put a foot wrong, they’ll complete, and also knowing you haven’t got the faintest idea what you’re doing, and are having to play it by ear.

    You’ve never been held down, urinated upon, spat upon, or had cigarettes stubbed out on your neck and hands. Never had a skull fracture from an assault with a crowbar. Never had a bullet wound. Never had to help a friend recover from brain injuries suffered in a multi-hour torture/rape/murder which didn’t quite kill her. You’ve never saved lives – or taken them when that was necessary…

    You have a lot of anger, a lot of passion. You can use that to make a difference, if you want to.

    A) I note you don’t answer me at all

    B) Who the fuck are you to guess at what my life has been like

    C) You are one arrogant asshole

  124. 124
    Ingdigo Jump

    Try not to be a bigger asshole than necessary.

    Take your own advise asshole. Do you realize you just called a good number of fucking rape victims here the pot to a rape apologists kettle? You have the goddamn nerve to play holier than thou with ME when you come in shitting on people?

  125. 125
    mt

    I find the responses here to zoebrain horrible.

    Occasional Reader.

  126. 126
    anteprepro

    I find the responses here to zoebrain horrible.

    Occasional Reader.

    BAAAAAAAAAW.

    -Frequent Reader.

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