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Jul 25 2012

Episode CCCLIII: Soothing

I’m really tired this afternoon, and need a nap. Maybe a lullaby will help.

(If you don’t already know this song, AAAAAH! Trigger Warning!)

(Episode CCCLII: Nice planet you’ve got there.)

740 comments

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  1. 1
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Chimpie, I dunno. No links either.

  2. 2
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    This is what happens when you start a wild fermented sourdough starter in my kitchen. This is after 1 day.

    I’m guessing the wild yeast population is something special in my house.

  3. 3
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    That’s strange Josh

  4. 4
    The Mellow Monkey

    From the last thread:

    Our bodies really aren’t very smart, you know, and sometimes they do stupid shit our brains would rather they didn’t.

    QFT. Your body’s gonna do what it’s gonna do. No sense in adding extra stress and pressure by expecting a particular quirk to take place on cue.

  5. 5
    The Mellow Monkey

    Rev, I’m jealous! My sourdough never gets that active. I assume it’s a matter of the temperature not being quite right, because I’ve adjusted the feeding every which way I can. It’ll rise and make bread just fine, but it’s slow.

  6. 6
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Sorry to do this, but I can only think to test a few words to see what’s trigger the spam-hammer:

    ‘splainin’

  7. 7
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Chick

  8. 8
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Nope, not that either.

    faggots

  9. 9
    Anthony K

    As a teen, I had a friend whose older brother would spend hundreds of dollars on CDs, and we’d spend hours making mixed tapes. Since I’m, well, me, my favourite mixed CD was 80 minutes of The Cure on one side, and Depeche Mode (shut up, Chas) on the other. I shared a car with my mother, and I’d play the tape over and over again whenever I drove, continuously, for at least five years.

    Sometimes I wish I could go back to that time, just driving, late at night, in the summer air, singing my lungs out.

    Twenty years later, I can still remember the song that came right after “Lullaby”: “2 Late”.

    Tempolash!

  10. 10
    cicely

    Attack of the Portcullis!

    Re-try:

    I’ve been examining my *stomach lurch* reflex, up-Thread a bit. Worrying that it might seem as if I was ignoring the horror of the assault itself, focusing inappropriately on something so much less…and I think I’ve worked out the process behind it.

    I can comprehend someone walking into such a situation, freezing in astonished horror, fleeing in a panic, castigating themselves later that they didn’t stop it. I’d like to think that I would intervene; or at the very least (and it is a very least indeed), having fled (in shame at not having intervened immediately), called the police, the local Scouting authorities, someone.

    I cannot understand someone walking into it, apologizing (“Oops! So sorry to embarrass you in mid-rape, old man! Carry on!”), laughing (laughing!!! There’s humor in this, somewhere????), and then left to do nothing…at…all.

    *lurch*
    -

  11. 11
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    And seriously–straight dudes (see note below) Shut your mouths about tactics queers use to get by, survive, fight and reform. Shut. Your. Pie. Holes.

    You get to opine on this stuff once you’ve put in the work of
    befriending and listening to queers, women (or take-your-pick)instead of ‘splainin’ to them. Which is always, really, just an example of you vocalizing your discomfort and externalizing it into an Uncontroversial Fact of Objective and Rational Strategy.

    Basically if you’re not PZ, Brownian, Tis, Louis, Ogvorbis, Chimpie, MrFire(sorry if I forgot anyone), then you infest Enterprise and Vee-Ger does not want you to disclose the information. Sit in the corner quietly with the other ugly-bags-of-mostly-water.

    (Note)-Notice I don’t include women here. If they’re problematic, they usually reserve their douche-ness for Chill Girl antics leaving us faggots relatively safe from Chill Chick-Splainin’.

  12. 12
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    And seriously–straight dudes (see note below) Shut your mouths about tactics queers use to get by, survive, fight and reform. Shut. Your. Pie. Holes.

    You get to opine on this stuff once you’ve put in the work of
    befriending and listening to queers, women (or take-your-pick)instead of ‘splainin’ to them. Which is always, really, just an example of you vocalizing your discomfort and externalizing it into an Uncontroversial Fact of Objective and Rational Strategy.

    Basically if you’re not PZ, Brownian, Tis, Louis, Ogvorbis, Chimpie, MrFire(sorry if I forgot anyone), then you infest Enterprise and Vee-Ger does not want you to disclose the information. Sit in the corner quietly with the other ugly-bags-of-mostly-water.

    (Note)-Notice I don’t include women here. If they’re problematic, they usually reserve their douche-ness for chill girl antics leaving us faggots relatively safe from chill girl chick ‘splainin.

  13. 13
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    I am utterly baffled. Nothing that I change in my comment can make it past the spam filter. There are no links. There are no mentions of anyone who’s been banned. The only string of ‘nyms I use is PZ, Brownian, Tis, Louis, Ogvorbis, Chimpie, MrFire.

  14. 14
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    One part at a time, then, to isolate:

    I. And seriously–straight dudes (see note below) Shut your mouths about tactics queers use to get by, survive, fight and reform. Shut. Your. Pie. Holes.

  15. 15
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    II.You get to opine on this stuff once you’ve put in the work of
    befriending and listening to queers, women (or take-your-pick)instead of ‘splainin’ to them. Which is always, really, just an example of you vocalizing your discomfort and externalizing it into an Uncontroversial Fact of Objective and Rational Strategy.

  16. 16
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    III.Basically if you’re not PZ, Brownian, Tis, Louis, Ogvorbis, Chimpie, MrFire(sorry if I forgot anyone), then you infest Enterprise and Vee-Ger does not want you to disclose the information. Sit in the corner quietly with the other ugly-bags-of-mostly-water.

  17. 17
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    IV. (Note)-Notice I don’t include women here. If they’re problematic, they usually reserve their douche-ness for chill girl antics leaving us faggots relatively safe from chill girl chick ‘splainin.

  18. 18
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    IV.(Note)-Notice I don’t include women here. If they’re problematic, they usually reserve their doosh-ness for chill girl antics leaving us faggots relatively safe from chill girl chick ‘splainin.

  19. 19
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Wait. The word douche is what set the filter off?

  20. 20
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Or was it douche-itude?

  21. 21
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Oh crap. I made a right mess. Most humble apologies, PZ. I figured you never had time to go through the moderation queue so I tried to help myself. I didn’t mean to make up extra work for you.

  22. 22
    David Marjanović

    As near as I can tell, he thinks that he can spot who is a geek and who is not and a woman who is not a geek and taunting men with her hotness by existing in public is some kind of evil predator and she is the reason why harassment takes place.

    …As far as I can see, he only thinks these are both problems, and they’re unrelated to each other, and one is not an excuse for the other, and hot-but-not-quite-hot-enough women going to geek conventions just for some ego-boosting attention are as bad as harrassment:

    Case in point: there is a website called Fat, Ugly Or Slutty [link] that catalogs insults, harassment and verbal abuse from male gamers to females on Xbox Live. Reading through just one page of the site made me ill. The big brother in me wanted to go pound the crap out of the thirteen year olds who think it’s cool or funny to demean women for sport.

    Is this type of harassment is deserved? Not at all. Are guys acting this way toward women just as disgusting and base as women poaching attention from our culture, satisfying their egos by strutting around a group of guys dressed in clothing and costumes from a culture filled with men they see as beneath them? Absolutely.

    Still doesn’t explain how he tells “poaching” women from actual geeks who happen to be female and hot (he says explicitly that such strange beasts exist, some are even his friends and probably allowed to use his bathroom).

    However, it’s clear that he feels they’re bullying him.

  23. 23
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    sorry Josh but while your message is serious the word tag is a little bit funny. And that’s not fair. But I did snortle a little bit with

    yeah I’ve now moved it to a larger wider container so that I can leave my house without fear of coming home to the sourdough starter that ate Charleston.

    Plus my dog would just try to eat it.

    Going to keep feeding this bad boy for a few weeks so it gets really sour before I bake with it.

  24. 24
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Was that everything before Josh?

    maybe it didn’t like the Numbered formatting?

  25. 25
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    cicely,

    Yeah, that part struck me hard too. I kept rereading it in hope that I had misunderstood and that those hikers didn’t actually witness child rape and ignore it (laughing and apologizing for the interruption?!).

    Ugh.

  26. 26
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Wait, what? Who is speaking this line, and where did it come from?

    sorry Josh but while your message is serious the word tag is a little bit funny. And that’s not fair. But I did snortle a little bit with

    I’m confused.

  27. 27
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Good evening

    Perfect moment today
    Sitting in the shade of a big tree, listening to Lana del Rey “Video Games”, watching the kids run in the soft evening sun over green lawns.
    #1 really looked like a bad stereotype out of a high-gloss magazine: the hair tied loosely in a bun, wearing a long ruffled dress (actually too long, Idress, I bought it cheap last fall when they cleared the summer stuff and it’s still 2 sizes too big), white with a vintage rose print. Too pretty.

    Home childbirth, given the right circumstances, is not nearly the medical emergency she makes it out to be.

    I think the problem is twofold:
    1) pregnancy and childbirth are inherently dangerous. It’s only because of those evil gynaecologists that we were allowed to forget about it.
    2)People don’t understand risk and probability.
    The overall risk of neonatal death and intrapartum stillbirth are very, very low in Europe and Northern America (6-8/1000 for neonatal death, 3-4/1000 for intrapartum stillbirth)
    Which means that an increased risk of 100% means you’re still at an overall low risk.
    The problem is that it doesn’t help you if you’re one of those whose baby died during or shortly after birth and who wouldn’t have died in a hospital.
    The big British “birthplace study” which compared the outcome depending on where a woman intended to give birth came to the conclusion that the risk was only almost comparable in women who had an uncomplicated low risk pregnancy AND had already given birth without any complications. Which is a fucking small amount of women.
    Amy Tuteur’s personality has zilch to do with the facts and data which just doesn’t support the homebirth movement. To claim that it’s “safe” just isn’t true, telling that to women is to lie.
    So, she picked her fight there to claim that she doesn’t care because she doesn’t do something different is just dishonest.

    re: birth rape
    That’s a fucking disgusting term.
    Yes, birth can be a traumatic experience. Because it can turn fucking bad fucking quickly. Then to accuse the people who just tried their best to make sure that woman and child survived of having maliciously and for selfish reasons commited a horrible crime is disgusting.
    That doesn’t mean that there aren’t assholes out there, and that we don’t still have a long way to go, but that’s way over the line.

  28. 28
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    wtf

    That was something I typed out then though better because of the seriousness of your message. But I didn’t post it?

    wtf

  29. 29
    Inaji

    Josh, Mr. Fire is bi.

  30. 30
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    Giliell, my hospital birth gave me PTSD. I don’t describe it as birth rape but I wish people would not be dismissive of the term. Birth is an intimate experience for many people, not least because it involves our genitals, and YES some of the violating and abusive experiences women have gone through can absolutely be comparable to rape. It is not about, as someone else also trivialized it, not having our permission verbally asked every time someone touches our hoohas. It’s about being deliberately, cruelly and institutionally victimized in ways some women process as sexual.

  31. 31
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    #28 was in response to #26 if that wasn’t clear

  32. 32
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Chimpie:

    wtf

    That was something I typed out then though better because of the seriousness of your message. But I didn’t post it?

    wtf

    Both our fingers are full of fail. And don’t worry—I always mix the serious and the silly (note the Star Trek references).

    Caine:

    Mr. Fire is bi

    I’m so stoop-id. Of course he is. And I would have got away with him too if it hadn’t been for that meddling Mrs. Fire.

  33. 33
    Louis

    Caine,

    Josh, Mr. Fire is bi.

    All the best people are. It’s a superpower.

    I AM NOT IN ANYWAY BIASED!!!!!!!!!

    ;-)

    Louis

    P.S. Also people called “Louis” are a) better than everyone and b) remarkably good in bed. Just, you know, sayin’.

    P.P.S. And always right about everything.

  34. 34
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Both our fingers are full of fail. And don’t worry—I always mix the serious and the silly (note the Star Trek references).

    Ahhhh

    Took me a minute, i didn’t even see where I posted it. Now I see it in those block quotes up there.

    I was REALLY confused there for a second.

  35. 35
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Go to Skepchick NOW and read something that will make you feel so much better (really). Male leaders speaking out against misogyny and calling for anonymous haters to be outed:

    http://skepchick.org/2012/07/speaking-out-against-hate-directed-at-women-dale-mcgowan/

  36. 36
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Gah!
    Hate those days when the weather and my mood sync up. There’s no reason for me to feel hummed and yet I do. Stoopid brain.

  37. 37
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Instead of a lullaby, hows about another cover of Sweet Dreams (Are Made of This)?

  38. 38
    cicely

    Anybody else having trouble following Josh’s link?

  39. 39
    The Mellow Monkey

    David:

    …As far as I can see, he only thinks these are both problems, and they’re unrelated to each other, and one is not an excuse for the other, and “hot-but-not-quite-hot-enough women going to geek conventions just for some ego-boosting attention” are as bad as harrassment:

    It’s spread out a bit, but he does draw a connection. I’ll cut out a bit of the extraneous material to show where I got my impression:

    The growing presence of these Olivia Munn types in the geek community is creating dialog that isn’t helping anyone….But then, you have these models-cum-geeks like Olivia Munn and practically every FragDoll. These chicks? Not geeks….So, I can understand why someone completely ignorant could look at Felicia Day and see a pretty woman who is making one heck of a career starring in roles celebrating fandom, and mentally file them along with the fake geek G4 hostesses….He knee-jerked his way into temporary internet infamy. I think he was an idiot. But I can see why he bubbled over. There’s no doubt about it – girls in geek culture have it hard, and it’s probably going to be that way for a long time. At least until men stop lusting after women (so, like, never).

    To my eyes, that seems to be saying that women he has decided are not geeks are responsible for anger towards women in geeky spaces. If it was more along the lines of the objectification of “booth babes” creating a culture where objectification of all women is acceptable, I’d agree with him on at least that aspect, but his emphasis is on the women themselves, by labeling them as “poachers.”

  40. 40
    tyrannical

    Oh,a just for fun post.

    Excellent song by a very underrated band. Not a fan of the makeup, but I suppose that is artistic license.

  41. 41
    Cipher

    Part of my ceiling fell in.

  42. 42
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    I am loving the Bane Capital twitter feed.

    Especially this.

  43. 43
    The Mellow Monkey

    Crap, Cipher!

  44. 44
    Inaji

    tyrannical:

    Oh,a just for fun post.

    No, this is TET (The Endless Thread), our lounge. Open thread.

  45. 45
    cicely

    Part of my ceiling fell in.

    O.O
    -

  46. 46
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Cipher:
    Oh noes!

  47. 47
    Inaji

    Cipher:

    Part of my ceiling fell in.

    Oh crap. We had that happen last winter. Not fun.

  48. 48
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    I cannot understand someone walking into it, apologizing (“Oops! So sorry to embarrass you in mid-rape, old man! Carry on!”), laughing (laughing!!! There’s humor in this, somewhere????), and then left to do nothing…at…all.

    I don’t understand it either. But it is one of those clear as a bell memories that I’ll never get rid of. It was mom, dad (well, I presume mom and dad) and two girls aged about 10 and 12. Mom apologized. The girls and dad laughed. It was off the scale on the weird-shit-o-meter.

    Beatrice:

    Again, no idea the how or why.

  49. 49
    Weedless Monkey

    Audley, wow! That Eurythmics cover is awesome. And the video too.

  50. 50
    Anthony K

    No, this is TET (The Endless Thread), our lounge. Open thread.

    And your trolling won’t be tolerated here. You won’t be tolerated here.

    You are welcome in the TZT threads. You are not welcome here.

  51. 51
  52. 52
    Inaji

    Brownian:

    You won’t be tolerated here.

    The nym isn’t familiar to me. What am I missing?

  53. 53
    Louis

    Cipher,

    BUMMER! I’d send USB beer, but would USB plaster and Polyfiller be better?

    HEADS UP THOSE WHO HAVEN’T NOTICED ALREADY:

    Tyrannical is a really obvious troll. It’s repeating pointless tripe about evolutionary biology meaning Teh Ghey&trae; is An Disease and how men throwing themselves in front of women (a la Aurora shooting) is misogynistic.

    Approach with comedy and/or derision as appropriate. This is a Band G troll, pointless with a side order of mild odiousness.

    Louis

  54. 54
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    I am having a fucking awesome day.

    Got a call from the doc. The test results.

    It is official. Five years cancer-free.

    (Well, four years, 10 months. But that’s a rounding error).

    !!!!!

  55. 55
    Anthony K

    The nym isn’t familiar to me. What am I missing?

    Not much. (Trigger warning for homophobia and stupidity. Also, tyrannical needs to read a book on evolution.)

  56. 56
    Inaji

    Nevermind, I just saw one of its “contributions” to a thread. Ugh.

  57. 57
    The Mellow Monkey

    Awesome, Esteleth! Cheers to continuing to kick cancer’s ass!

  58. 58
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    I have linked to this a couple of times before but, damn, this is one of the funniest covers ever!

  59. 59
    Anthony K

    Congrats, Esteleth! That’s outstanding! I’m’a go get drunk on your behalf.

    [Leaves.]

    .

    .

    .

    .

    .

    [Returns, out of breath.]

    Oh, fuck, I’m still at work!

    Still, congrats!

  60. 60
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Esteleth:

    Fandamntastic!

  61. 61
    Inaji

    Yeah, okay…bleargh, feeling like a shower would be a good idea right about now.

  62. 62
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    E,
    *CONFETTI! AND ICE CREAM!*

  63. 63
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Ogvorbis,

    Well, I sort of a little bit wish those people got lost in the woods and eaten by a bear. In fact, that is just about the only excuse I would consider valid for not calling the police the moment they had a chance.

    My family always did their best to teach me not the interfere. No matter what I hear or see, it’s none of my business and it’s not my problem. (yeah, nice lessons) And I fear a lot of people have the same policy, but I would hope… I would hope those were just words, but if they ever actually were in a position to help, that they would.

    *misanthropy rising*

    Sorry, I’m dragging this further than necessary. I’ll stop now.

  64. 64
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Weed Monkey:
    I love well done covers of pop songs, especially when they cross genres. :)

  65. 65
    mythbri

    @Esteleth

    Congratulations!

  66. 66
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Brownian, that reminds me of when Laura Schlessinger got her TV show back in 2000. One group I was with latched on to one of her statements, that homosexuals are a biological mistake and made a shirt that we wore at a protest at CBS 2′s studio in Chicago.

    I am not a biological mistake!

  67. 67
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    kristinc
    I believe you.
    I never doubted that birth can give women PTSD. I know a few really bad stories, and I was very fortunate in my pregnacies that everything went well and the only assholes I encountered were really not responsible people during my births.
    But I think that a distinction must be made and that not every traumatic birth experience is because some evil OB/gyn victimized a woman.
    And I think that a great many women actually ruin their births themselves by buying into the naturallistic fallacy and and believing that their birth experience has to be XY and Z.
    I think we both know that births can’t be planned unless you plan a c-section anyway.
    Oh, I had planned. I had planned well. With music and stuff! I so much wanted to give birth standing up! You know, do the real womanly woman thing, like our great-great-grandmothers who gave birth in the field, hey, they did it (hmmm, no music there…). And the milk would flow like god himself fed his people in the dessert.
    Fortunately, although I was stupid enough to buy into that shit, I was clever enough not to let it get me at least for the birth. What it did to me for the breastfeeding is a different story.

  68. 68
    Inaji

    Congrats, Esteleth. ♥

  69. 69
    Anthony K

    Brownian, that reminds me of when Laura Schlessinger got her TV show back in 2000. One group I was with latched on to one of her statements, that homosexuals are a biological mistake and made a shirt that we wore at a protest at CBS 2′s studio in Chicago.

    I am not a biological mistake!

    She’s such an idiot.

    It’s this kind of bullshit that flies in the face of whatsizname, the fellow who was saying that he could talk for days and never have evolution come up. PZ wrote about him.

  70. 70
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Well, I sort of a little bit wish those people got lost in the woods and eaten by a bear.

    No bear on the south rim of the Grand Canyon. There were mountain lions, though. Good kitty.

    Sorry, I’m dragging this further than necessary. I’ll stop now.

    No, no. Don’t apologize (where have I read that before?). I remember the incident clear as a bell. I even remember what they were wearing. But it never, until you and cicely took note of it, I had not realize how utterly unreal that was. If I walked into a campsite in a National Forest (well, anywhere!) and saw a middle aged man recieving oral sex from a ten year old in a scout uniform (well, the clothes wouldn’t matter, but this is what they saw) there would have been serious intervention.

  71. 71
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    On more serious topics, tyrannical has shown themselves to be a sever idiot. Hardly surprising that tyrannical would think that The Cure, one of the most popular acts of the eighties and nineties, is under appreciated.

  72. 72
    Inaji

    Ogvorbis:

    If I walked into a campsite in a National Forest (well, anywhere!) and saw a middle aged man recieving oral sex from a ten year old in a scout uniform (well, the clothes wouldn’t matter, but this is what they saw) there would have been serious intervention.

    It’s a reason none of us can ever stop educating. Ever. Your story reminds me of the cops who bought the ‘domestic argument’ story from Dahmer when his 14 year old victim escaped, crying and naked, onto to the street. They handed the kid back to Dahmer.

    People just don’t stop to fucking think most of the time and that’s why they need the crap educated out of them, so that they will think and will do what’s right.

  73. 73
    Louis

    Esteleth,

    WOOT!

    BEER! (I seem to be saying that a lot today for various reasons.)

    Louis

  74. 74
    cicely

    It is official. Five years cancer-free.

    Huzzah! *confetti&champagne*
    -

  75. 75
    tyrannical

    Louis

    HEADS UP THOSE WHO HAVEN’T NOTICED ALREADY:

    Tyrannical is a really obvious troll. It’s repeating pointless tripe about evolutionary biology meaning Teh Ghey&trae; is An Disease and how men throwing themselves in front of women (a la Aurora shooting) is misogynistic.

    Approach with comedy and/or derision as appropriate. This is a Band G troll, pointless with a side order of mild odiousness.

    I’ve no need to troll. I just have to state what I honestly believe is to be true, or at least worth considering to be true.

  76. 76
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    If I walked into a campsite in a National Forest (well, anywhere!) and saw a middle aged man recieving oral sex from a ten year old in a scout uniform (well, the clothes wouldn’t matter, but this is what they saw) there would have been serious intervention.

    Just once more, I’m so sorry you had to go through all that.

    And what Caine said.

    And I’m also cheering for any mountain lion that might have decided to snack on any of that family. Good kitty.

  77. 77
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    tyrannical:

    Get out of this thread. Seriously. You are not welcome here.

  78. 78
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    It is so fucking kind of you, tyrannical, to inform me that I really should not live, that I am some mistake.

    Just telling you what I think is the truth.

  79. 79
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    And I’m also cheering for any mountain lion that might have decided to snack on any of that family. Good kitty.

    I’d’ve cheered more if the mountain lion had eaten the scout leader. The family that happened on it were bystanders. I have seen enough shit go down to understand the extreme reluctance for a bystander to step in and become involved. So part of me understands. Part of me is confused. Part of me is angry.

  80. 80
    dianne

    But I think that a distinction must be made and that not every traumatic birth experience is because some evil OB/gyn victimized a woman.

    Yep. Birth is or at least can be nasty, even if everyone does everything right. I have no criticism of the hospital I gave birth in or the personnel there. But labor frigging hurt! If you’ve ever had a cramp in your muscle after running too fast, it felt a bit like that…only all over my back and abdomen, for several hours on end. And accompanied by nausea and vomiting, diarrhea, and high fevers (though really the high fever only came towards the end…I didn’t go over 103 until about the time they were prepping me for c-section.) Everyone reacted appropriately, was very sympathetic, and offered appropriate pain relief and good advice on how to proceed as events turned bad. I got out with a healthy baby and a well behaved scar.

    Five years later I considered working at this same hospital. I was able to go into the hospital without problems, talk to the relevant person, and find that I wasn’t what they wanted and they weren’t what I wanted. It wasn’t until I left that I realized that I was shaking with relief that I’d never have to go back in there again.

    Being in an uncontrollable, painful situation is traumatic, no matter what. People being assholes or worse to you makes everything worse, but to some extent there’s just no way to make some births non-traumatic.

  81. 81
    Doug Hudson

    I’m so adverse to confrontation, that I honestly don’t know what I’d do if I saw child abuse. I would call the police, certainly, but would I intervene directly? I don’t know. I’d like to think so…assuming that direct intervention didn’t expose the child to greater harm…

  82. 82
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Cipher, you OK?

    Esteleth: Congratulations. :)

    Caine:

    Your story reminds me of the cops who bought the ‘domestic argument’ story from Dahmer when his 14 year old victim escaped, crying and naked, onto to the street. They handed the kid back to Dahmer.

    It wasn’t just that he was 14 years old, either. He was Vietnamese and poor. Dahmer was white and middle class.

    Tyrannical:

    I’ve no need to troll. I just have to state what I honestly believe is to be true, or at least worth considering to be true.

    And Flat Earthers believe you can sail over the edge of the world. Back up your citations with something you didn’t pull out of your ass or fuck off. Actually, fuck off anyway, this is our lounge and you’re pissing in the beer pitcher.

  83. 83
    tyrannical

    Ogvorbis

    Get out of this thread. Seriously. You are not welcome here.

    This thread? But I liked the song, or was this just some type of poe thread. I’m new here, so cut me a little slack just because we disagree.

  84. 84
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Horde, please help. Please express yourselves at Mano Singham’s. I literally cannot believe what I’m reading:

    Mano:

    I saw this as the flip side of the Westboro Baptist people who go and picket the funerals of gay people and soldiers to make their point. They are free to say what they want and believe what they want but going to people’s funerals to demonstrate seems, again, needless provocative. Of course, it is their goal to be provocative but I think events have shown that it is a losing strategy. Similarly, I would not recommend that atheists go inside the churches of even the most anti-atheist preacher and confront them there. It seems to me to be better to do counter-protests in a clearly public sphere.

    Me:

    You couldn’t have insulted me worse if you slapped me across the face Mano. How dare you? A kiss-in at a restaurant to push for gay equality is the flip side of Fred Phelps’ bastards interrupting a funeral to say gay people are going to burn in hell?

    Did you mean this? Really? Is that what you think of me? Is that what you think of gay people?

    1. Restaurants are places of public accommodation. They are not “their” (read: only straight peoples’) sanctuaries. Analogy fail.

    2. Queer people staging a non-violent protest showcasing love and affection is not morally equivalent to bigots busting up a funeral to shout evil things at families.

    FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU.

    How many more clueless fucking bastard straight doods wanna out themselves around here? Bring it.

  85. 85
    Louis

    Sure, Tyrannical, whatever you say. Go here, you are stinking up our lounge and are clearly not wanted. Did your mother not teach you sufficient manners to not go where you aren’t wanted?

    Louis

  86. 86
    Doug Hudson

    Just out of curiosity, why would someone use the nick “tyrannical”? I mean, that’s not generally an admired trait. In fact, it sounds like some kind of Sith Lord. Oh wait, it was a Sith Lord, wasn’t it? Darth Tyrannus?

    We got a Sith Lord here, folks!

  87. 87
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    I’d’ve cheered more if the mountain lion had eaten the scout leader.

    Of course.
    (sorry)
    It’s a weird “who should be eaten by a bear mountain lion” tangent I’ve gone on anyway.

  88. 88
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    The worst response I’ve seen thrown at women who complain about abusive OBs is, “You survived, right? Your baby is alive? Then SHUT UP.”

    Because the point is waaaaaay over there.

    I read an article examining the fact that more women are being diagnosed with birth-related PTSD than ever before. Author concluded:
    1) Until recently a woman presenting symptoms of PTSD would not have been diagnosed, especially if her birth experience was held to be the cause.
    2) Women are surviving birth experiences that would killed them even ten years ago.

    That latter point was cited as the biggie. Near-death experiences (not the “seeing the light” woo, the experience of almost dying and then living with the knowledge of how close you got) are inherently traumatic.

    ___

    Thanks for the congrats everyone!

    As I said, this is 4 years 10 months.

    Which means: September 22. Party. My place.

  89. 89
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    You are new here so I will let you know this, tyrannical. There are a lot of gay men, lesbians, bisexual and trangendered people here. None of them will take kindly to you informing us that we are mistakes and will not be around once some “tidying up” occures. And want to know something else, a lot of the straight people will not be kind to you either.

    I will not fucking cut you any slack, assclam.

  90. 90
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    I’m new here, so cut me a little slack just because we disagree.

    You show up spewing homophobic propaganda and you want me to cut you slack? Fuck off and leave this thread.

  91. 91
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    I realize this is presumptuous, but if you can do battle with only one piece of homophobia at a time, please consider my #84. I’m much more upset that an FtB blogger is compared a gay kiss-in to Fred Phelps than I am about that idiot Tyrannical.

    Sorry. Very worked up.

  92. 92
    Inaji

    I just have to state what I honestly believe is to be true, or at least worth considering to be true.

    You will not be trolling your shit in this thread. Get the fuck out, you slimed out enema bag.

    PZ, please quarantine this “tyrannical” pos. Thank you.

  93. 93
    Anthony K

    tyrannical, we are cutting you some slack, by telling you which threads you arent welcome on. This one is a lounge. We try our best not to argue here (since I’m a terrible person who thrives on rage and malevolence, I limit my time here.)

    You’ve been asked to leave this thread multiple times now. Are you new to English?

  94. 94
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Josh, there are a lot of people here. Different people can do different tasks.

  95. 95
    cicely

    Still more introspection: in the abovementioned situation, I also immediately flash to how it would be for the victim of the abuse…seeing possible help right there, only to have it cruelly taken away, leaving no hope for relief.

    *lurch*

    Glurg.

    Okay, I think I’m gonna take my brain off the hook for a bit.
    -

  96. 96
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Josh – I simply quoted the phrase about the WBC back at Mano and added “ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME.”

    If other people want to argue the point with him, they can, but I consider that comparison so offensively stupid as to deserve nothing but straight-up mockery.

  97. 97
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    . . . seeing possible help right there, only to have it cruelly taken away, leaving no hope for relief.

    I think that by that point I had decided that this was my fault, so the idea of help was outside my box.

  98. 98
    Doug Hudson

    That Mano Singham post is truly, ridiculously offensive.

    My post there is awaiting moderation, so just in case it disappears into the ether:

    Comparing anyone to the Westboro douchebags is offensive.

    Comparing gays to the Westboro Baptists? You are aware that the Westboro Baptists advocate killing all gays, right? That they want to see every single gay person dead and burning in hell for all eternity?

    THAT is the flipside of a gay kiss-in?

    Might want to rethink that one.

  99. 99
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Thanks Daisy.

    He clearly has no fucking idea (or empathy) how stupid that is or he wouldn’t have said it. I despair to see educated, supposedly liberal people who are such blatant supporters of the status quo. There’s no getting away from it. Everywhere I turn some fucking dood who I think is an ally actually fucking helps keep me and queers down.

    I can’t stand it.

  100. 100
    Doug Hudson

    On a related note, though, my distaste for Chick-fil-a’s policies wars against my addiction to their Polynesian sauce and their breakfast mini-sandwiches.

    Oh, why does evil need to be so tasty?

  101. 101
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Jebus, Oggie.

    I’m so sorry. For everything. Including the fact I only just now read your posts. :( :( :(

  102. 102
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    No thanks are necessary. I consider it a “basic human decency” thing.

    You bolded the wrong word.

    I despair to see educated, supposedly <b<liberal people who are such blatant supporters of the status quo.

    They are liberals. As in “Love Me, I’m A.” Versus progressives. They’re cool with you having your rights, so long as you’re not uncouth and tacky about pursuing them. You need to act like a upper-middle-class white suburban respectable member of society. Go put on a Dolce e Gabbana suit and ask the hets nicely for your rights, like Joe Salomonese.

  103. 103
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    …And I didn’t even bold the right word.

  104. 104
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Well it’s a good goddamn thing I became a Suburban White Lady Homeowner in the past two years, Daisy. Oh, wait-it didn’t help.

  105. 105
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Esteleth,

    Congrats of showing that cancer who’s the boss.

  106. 106
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Yeah, but you still smoke (sort of), you don’t speak in the soporific tones of an NPR announcer, and you’re needlessly confrontational in a way that upsets nice Unitarian types making six figures a year.

  107. 107
    thunk: turmite city

    Cipher:

    Ouch.

    Josh: Yes, I don’t really follow most of the rest of FTB now. Mano’s doing WTF.

  108. 108
    mouthyb, Vagina McTits

    Thank you, Pterryx and David and anyone I might have forgotten to mention. I try not to break down often, but the social media and the victim being reprimanded for trying to talk about the experience really got to me, especially the trolls who were talking about how ‘immature’ it was for the victim to talk about her abusers. I’ve been through several nasty moments, most of which were followed by admonitions and/or threats about talking about it afterward, sometimes from people completely unrelated to the problem, who thought it was a confession of weakness/unfitness/slutty evil that I tried to say something had happened.

    Pterryx: The reference library and time to tinker on computers/do research/produce papers instead of working two or three jobs would be peachy. The assumption of competence, instead of the same tired assumptions about who does my homework or writes my papers, etc, is the best part of that. (And yes, at 34, I’m STILL being asked who does my homework on occasion.)

  109. 109
    Sili

    I’m so adverse to confrontation, that I honestly don’t know what I’d do if I saw child abuse. I would call the police, certainly, but would I intervene directly? I don’t know. I’d like to think so…assuming that direct intervention didn’t expose the child to greater harm…

    I hope I never have to find out.

    Sadly, I say that more for my own sake, because I’m afraid of the answer, than for the sake of the victim (i.e. I hope there are not enough children being abused that I’ll ever run into one).

    That said, I should learn the signs of abuse, even if I find it in flagrante, since I’m now working with kids for a living.

  110. 110
    Doug Hudson

    Sili, 109:

    EXACTLY! I almost wrote that I hope I never have to find out, but I wasn’t sure how to explain what I meant.

  111. 111
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Awesome, left0ver1under thinks they’re helping by spewing fat hatred, then calling Josh “overly emotional” for objecting. Fuckwit. And not for the first time, either.

  112. 112
    mouthyb, Vagina McTits

    Josh: I have no idea why a kiss-in would be anything like the Phelps. That makes no fucking sense.

  113. 113
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    mouthyb: I guess seeing icky gay kissing is just as distressing and traumatic as having the funeral of a loved one interrupted by a bunch of sign-waving fundamentalist bigots?

  114. 114
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Yeah, but you still smoke (sort of)

    Minor quibble: No, I don’t. I vape. Why do I care? Because there’s an effort culturally to equate the two and pretend the health damage is the same, and if I were stronger I’d quit nicotine altogether. . .blah blah. Not a big deal. Just sayin’:)

  115. 115
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Esteleth

    The worst response I’ve seen thrown at women who complain about abusive OBs is, “You survived, right? Your baby is alive? Then SHUT UP.”

    Because the point is waaaaaay over there.

    Oh, I absolutely second that.
    It’s the idiotic assumption that our psyche is worthless, I mean, who cares about us as people when we function as bodies?

    Congratulations again. My MIL will have the 5 years up next summer. Yay!

    Josh
    Will be right over there

  116. 116
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I just have to state what I honestly believe is to be true, or at least worth considering to be true.

    Which is bullshit, utter and total bullshit, without scientific evidence to back up your inane and fuckwitted blather. So, you admit you are a liar and bullshitter, that is a troll, since you can’t/won’t back up your claims with evidence. And you OPINION is not evidence, nor will it ever be so here.

  117. 117
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Here’s the email I’m going to send off to my asshole sister:

    Hey, just so you know, I have some information on the dangers of sleeping on your back during pregnancy: There has only been one study done and it concluded that in the general population (not controlled for sleeping position), 3.09 out of 1000 pregnancies will end in stillbirth (so, .003%). When you control for sleep position (back or right side) 3.93 out of 1000 pregnancies end in stillbirth (or .004%)

    The increase is so small that 1) the researchers themselves aren’t sure if it’s a causal relationship and call for further study, and 2) organizations like the NHS (the study was conducted in Britain) don’t recommend a particular sleep position over another and instead focus on the comfort of pregnant women.

    Just thought you would like to know. Whoever is feeding you shitty ideas like this absolutely needs to stop.

    Taking bets on asshole sister’s reaction! She’s either going to: realize that her criticisms are pretty much worthless (best outcome) or completely ignore the email (good outcome) or she’ll get all whiney that I don’t appreciate her “help” and I become the bad guy yet again (bad outcome).

  118. 118
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Argh, argh, argh, I greedily devoured quarter of a watermelon out of the fridge and now my teeth hurt from the cold.

  119. 119
    feralboy12

    Congrats, Esteleth.
    I had the experience a couple of years ago of having a doctor tell me I didn’t have cancer. I had this big ugly lump on my nose that required a biopsy. Not only was it not malignant, taking the chunk out for the biopsy stopped it from growing and started it going away entirely.
    Well, except I now have another little scar on my nose to go with the one I got in 1982 when I broke it. Oh, and the scar on my knee from the bicycle crash I had on the way to the biopsy. But hey, if you’re going to crash your bike and rip a chunk of flesh out of your knee, you can do worse than to have that crash on the way to the dermatologist. They debrided it for free.
    The downside was that the doctor had to spell out D-E-B-R-I-D-E to her assistant, and I spent the rest of the day dealing with a mutant Tammy Wynette earworm.

  120. 120
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Argh, argh, argh, I greedily devoured quarter of a watermelon out of the fridge and now my teeth hurt from the cold.

    A needlessly provocative act of tooth-on-fruit terrorism!

  121. 121
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Audley: whiney.

  122. 122
    Sili

    Arrrgh!!

    Bad Memebase! Whom”s don’t work that way.

    And you obviously are too stupid to spend even 5 seconds on Google to find out what a plumpudding is.

    Razzle-frazzle!

    (And I can’t get comments to load, so I can flaunt my superior α-geekdom.)

  123. 123
    Sili
  124. 124
    carlie

    Ooo, Audley, you evil genius. Pinning it on “whoever is feeding [her] that information” gives her the perfect face-saving out, because you’re assuming she’s not the idiot, but someone else is.

    Oggie, I don’t know what to say. I’m so glad that you feel better knowing everything that happened. No idea about that family, unless somehow from their vantage point they didn’t understand what was going on, or you looked much older from the glimpse they got of you, or what the hell.

    Cipher, augh!

    Yay Esteleth!

    Hugs to everyone else who may need them. I’m trying to keep up and missing things, I know.

  125. 125
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Fuck, I feel funny. Josh, Brownian, Miss Daisy Cutter, Beatrice and others were pointing out just how wrong Mano is. But it was my one statement there that got him to rethink how wrong it is to compare a LGBT kiss in to the fucking Phelps Klan? What is wrong here?

    Plus, yet an other fine example of humanity felt the need to point out how hysterical and bullying FTB is.

    *spits venom*

  126. 126
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Argh, argh, argh, I greedily devoured quarter of a watermelon out of the fridge and now my teeth hurt from the cold.

    I’ve been gorging myself with ice cold watermelon since last week (not every day, but nearly).

    My teeth ached too.

    It was so worth it.

  127. 127
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Josh:

    Audley: whiney.

    That’s were my money is, too. I’ll get the whiney response with a healthy dose of “But my best friend’s nutritionist said it was dangerous!” thrown in for good measure.

  128. 128
    carlie

    Also, emergency comfort eating: choco-hoto-pots. I have made them and they are good. You can substitute regular sugar or powdered sugar for the superfine and it’s ok. Also I have cooked it in the microwave but I forget how long it took. What’s nice is since it’s semisweet chocolate, you can substitute a chocolate bar and it still works.

  129. 129
    Sili

    Huh. How did that happen? (On the other hand, that’s probably the most representative post I’ve ever made.)

    –o–

    EXACTLY! I almost wrote that I hope I never have to find out, but I wasn’t sure how to explain what I meant.

    I still feel bad for caring more about myself, and it’s friggin’ insensitive of my to make this all about me.

  130. 130
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    I think that a great many women actually ruin their births themselves by buying into the naturallistic fallacy and and believing that their birth experience has to be XY and Z.

    Giliell, I respect you and I think you’re a good person, which is why I’m telling you that this is hurtful, victim-blaming bullshit. Women who report birthrape-type experiences aren’t whining because their Yanni CD skipped any more than women reporting sexual assault are whining because their rapist didn’t know how to find the clitoris. Without exception the stories I have heard and read of birthrape were assaults being done on these women by people in a position of power over them during their labor. Not something that just, whoops, happened. Assaults. Abusive treatment. And abuse victims DO NOT bring abuse on themselves by planning to have an experience free of abuse!

    Dianne:

    Being in an uncontrollable, painful situation is traumatic, no matter what. People being assholes or worse to you makes everything worse, but to some extent there’s just no way to make some births non-traumatic.

    See above. Painful situations can be traumatic but so can being caught in an earthquake. And being caught in an earthquake is not abuse. Women reporting birthrape have had their humanity and their agency violated at the hands of other people, not the impersonal natural force of chidbirth.

    The worst response I’ve seen thrown at women who complain about abusive OBs is, “You survived, right? Your baby is alive? Then SHUT UP.”

    This is why I hate people saying that “the main goal of childbirth is to have a healthy baby” or similar. It feeds right into the hands of those who suggest we are cans to be opened to decant the *real* people involved.

  131. 131
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    carlie:

    Ooo, Audley, you evil genius.

    :D :D :D

    Thanks! I’ll send it a little later this evening– I want to make sure she’s home from work, so if she does get all snitty, at least she’ll be home.

  132. 132
    carlie

    That’s were my money is, too. I’ll get the whiney response with a healthy dose of “But my best friend’s nutritionist said it was dangerous!” thrown in for good measure.

    Audley, given the excellent base you set in the email, if she gets whiny you can go right back at her with “That person is wrong, and they’re causing both you and me stress, and we both KNOW that stress is bad for pregnancies. Neither of us has the time to chase down every wacky theory about pregnancy out there, and it would stress us out the point of possibly harming the babies, so let’s each stick with what our own doctors tell us, ok?”

  133. 133
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Another one bites the dust. Mano Singham must be taking lessons from Paula Kirby. Interesting, also, that he will not respond to me, only to other commenters:

    When I mentioned the group like the Westboro church to make a point, I was not, of course, saying that they are morally equivalent to those fighting for gay rights. I was reaching for the most well-known example of a group that seems to be alienating people with their actions. Everyone knows what they do and their decline, so using them as an example means that one does not have to provide any background information. They are a convenient touchstone to make one’s point.

    It is similar to using Hitler and the Nazis as comparisons for something. Doing so does not mean that one is necessarily equating them or their actions with whatever group or issue happens to be under discussion. One is simply using them because people know what you are talking about.

  134. 134
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Carlie,
    Love it. Will do!

  135. 135
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    I still feel bad for caring more about myself, and it’s friggin’ insensitive of my to make this all about me.

    No one knows how they will react and fear of one’s own reaction is normal. I teach CPR/AED/First Aid and the single biggest obstacle to moving someone from ‘byastander’ to ‘caregiver’ is fear. This is about all of us.

  136. 136
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Also, can I mention how much I love proving her wrong with SCIENCE!? (It may be petty, but whatevah.)

    (Thanks again for the info, Matt!)

  137. 137
    mouthyb, Vagina McTits

    TLC: Only if the person in question has been living in a bubble.

    Crossposted from that thread on Mano’s blog:

    I think this is appropriate here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/timeline/stonewall/

    It’s a timeline of some of the major events in LGBT rights. Most of those events involved protests, riots and police action of some kind. PBS is considerably lighter in their descriptions of violence than they could be, especially considering the casual violence and corrective rape which sometimes occurred after LGBT persons were arrested, especially if they were deemed gender deviants.

    The Civil Rights movement in the US is equally full of protests, violence and homicide. I teach that in my youth and society course.

    While it might seem the ‘correct’ thing to do, if one believes the correct way is the way of least confrontation, to compare what the Phelps do to a protest as incredibly mild as a kiss-in, that position is in ignorance of history.

  138. 138
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Funny-this dumbass homophobe I blocked on Twitter (really, really vile–talked about faggots and trannies with their sicknesses and how they will all die horrible deaths) was so fucking stupid he thought my avatar was a picture of me. Which prompted him to ask what “kind of thing” I was. I almost wanted to ring Faye Dunaway.

    He then aksed if I was a man who fucked men, a man who fucked boys, a boy who. . .you get the picture. So I asked him if he was a man who fucked goats, a goat who fucked lambs, or a lamb who ate kebabs.

  139. 139
    Inaji

    New Rubin’s Ratlets pics up: http://needleprovocateur.wordpress.com/

    Their eyes are open. :D

  140. 140
    Sili

    Once more, with feeling: “Whom”s don’t work that way!

  141. 141
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Josh, I think that person will only fuck what he thinks Ronald Reagan believes he should fuck.

  142. 142
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Caine, that was a needle-lessly provocative post.

    OMG, the cute is unbearable. It’s impossible to explain, but I just want to pick up that pile of ratlets and stuff them in my mouth. No, I don’t want to eat them. . .I just want to nom them. Know what I mean?

  143. 143
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    And thank you Horde, for having my backside.

    tee-hee-hee.

  144. 144
    Inaji

    Josh:

    Caine, that was a needle-lessly provocative post.

    Hey, everyone else is being all provocative…

    OMG, the cute is unbearable. It’s impossible to explain, but I just want to pick up that pile of ratlets and stuff them in my mouth. No, I don’t want to eat them. . .I just want to nom them. Know what I mean?

    Yes, I know what you mean! So tiny, and *so* active. They are seriously motorvatin’ around. It won’t be long before they hit popcorn stage. Yikes. Rubin is bent that I put a fresh box in, just when she had the other one all nice and chewed up just so.

  145. 145
    carlie

    It’s impossible to explain, but I just want to pick up that pile of ratlets and stuff them in my mouth. No, I don’t want to eat them. . .I just want to nom them. Know what I mean?

    ARGH NO NOW MY MOUTH FEELS SO WEIRD

  146. 146
    dianne

    kristinic: I apologize for not acknowledging the risk of abuse.

    I know that reporting an assault is extremely difficult for a number of reasons, but if you’ve been assaulted by an OB, please at least consider reporting them to the hospital. There’s a much lower level of proof required to get a hospital interested in someone than for getting the police interested and it might end up being of some use. (If this is just too hard to do for any reason, flush the above advice.)

  147. 147
    Ing

    Got official job offer. Starts on monday. Need to brush up on my culture techniques by then ^-^.

    It’s an upgrade in pay too yay!

  148. 148
    Anthony K

    Know what I mean?

    I do. Like what I do with my cat’s ears.

  149. 149
    David Marjanović

    Review submitted, after I started today’s part of working on it waaaaay too late. Should have gone home long ago.

    Instead, I’ll catch up!

    Part of my ceiling fell in.

    o_O WTF. What are the building codes like in LA?

    I am loving the Bane Capital twitter feed.

    “By the way, have you people noticed that Mitt is white?”
    “Nick Koan ‏@nkoan
    @BaneCapital I thought he was Mexican?”

    I am having a fucking awesome day.

    Got a call from the doc. The test results.

    It is official. Five years cancer-free.

    *Jadehawk’s® Totally Biodegradable Confetti®*

    People just don’t stop to fucking think most of the time and that’s why they need the crap educated out of them, so that they will think and will do what’s right.

    QFT.

    I’ve no need to troll. I just have to state what I honestly believe is to be true, or at least worth considering to be true.

    So? Why do you believe it to be true? Did you even know that hetero- and bisexuality have been found in all vertebrate species that have been observed for long enough, which is now hundreds of them? Did you know that male homosexuality in humans runs in the same families as above-average female fertility? And so on…

  150. 150
    dianne

    Well, now I had to go and look up frequency of sexual abuse by ob/gyns. Found an article that’s rather old but, not pretty. I sincerely hope things have improved since then, but seriously worried that they haven’t. Maybe it’s time to go for all chaperone all the time interactions.

  151. 151
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    And thank you Horde, for having my backside.

    Just doing my part of being part of the Hivemind, Echo Chamber or what ever the fuck we are supposed to be.

  152. 152
    carlie

    Oh, for Tony on Shakesville – I know I’m in the minority here, but I do really like that site. The commenting is very tightly regulated; where here things that are wrong get batted about until they fall to shreds, there those things just get banned and/or deleted. The purpose of the commenting isn’t so much to hone arguments or discuss variants in opinion so much as to build community around shared values. There have been a few big missteps in the past; I was on the edges of understanding what those were about (at the time they happened) and they didn’t have as much of an impact on me as they have on other people, so I understand that other people have good reasons to not be happy with it. But I get a lot out of the way Liss does analysis of issues and I don’t comment there much. Just saying YMMV.

  153. 153
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Ing—congrats! Boy, did you deserve some good news.

    Brownian—I do the same thing with my cat’s ears! They’re just so warm and soft and nommable.

  154. 154
    carlie

    Congratulations, Ing!!

    MY MOUTH STILL FEELS FULL OF RATS. I need a baby’s feet to nom on or something to get that image out of my head. ;)

  155. 155
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Carlie,

    Just lie back and think of ratlets.

  156. 156
    carlie

    Just lie back and think of ratlets.

    OH GREAT NOW THE PHANTOM RATS ARE ON OTHER PARTS TOO.

  157. 157
    Anthony K

    Brownian—I do the same thing with my cat’s ears! They’re just so warm and soft and nommable.

    I’m packing up the girlfriend and the cat, and we’re coming over.

  158. 158
    David Marjanović

    Ooo, Audley, you evil genius. Pinning it on “whoever is feeding [her] that information” gives her the perfect face-saving out, because you’re assuming she’s not the idiot, but someone else is.

    Oggie, I don’t know what to say. I’m so glad that you feel better knowing everything that happened. No idea about that family, unless somehow from their vantage point they didn’t understand what was going on, or you looked much older from the glimpse they got of you, or what the hell.

    All seconded.

    Giliell, I respect you and I think you’re a good person, which is why I’m telling you that this is hurtful, victim-blaming bullshit.

    Giliell wasn’t talking about birth rape. She was talking about the fact that “not every traumatic birth experience is because some evil OB/gyn victimized a woman” (comment 67), where “every” really means “every”.

  159. 159
    birgerjohansson

    Article, “The Dark Side Of The Obama White House”
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/25/obama-national-security_n_1701888.html?utm_hp_ref=politics

    Two new books reveal unpleasant aspects of Obama’s security policies.

    David E. Sanger: “Confront and Conceal. Obama’s Secret Wars and Surprising Use of American Power” http://www.randomhouse.com/book/202541/confront-and-conceal-by-david-e-sanger

    Daniel Klaidman: “Kill or Capture: The War on Terror and the Soul of the Obama Presidency”: http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/hmh/site/hmhbooks/bookdetails?isbn=9780547547893
    — — — — — — — —
    Yes, I know Mittens will be even worse. :-(

  160. 160
    carlie

    Today in “stop the world, i want to get off”:

    company advertises waxing special for girls 15 and under

  161. 161
    David Marjanović

    My comment on Singham’s blog is through. It’s number 9.

    It has not been answered, and neither have the others that ask about what’s provocative about kissing in public.

  162. 162
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    kristinc
    I’m sorry I hurt you.
    I fucked up because I didn’t make clear that I was talking about different things:
    A) Abusive bastards exist who exercise power over women when they are very vulnerable

    B) Horrible traumatic births happen with no blame involved

    C) Some women do buy into shit and have unrealistic expectations about their childbirth which makes them feel victimized and hurts them.

    I was talking about group C, not A. Again, I’m not talking about the victims of assault and abuse. And I have seen that term flung around lightly. I’ve read the birth stories of “The Feminist Breeder”, an irresponsible woman who recommends washing your vagina with soap against Strep B, breech home deliveries and chiropractors for babies.
    Even if I take everything that she writes for granted (I believe that the doctor’s story would be different), there were some mistakes made with he C-section, like not talking with her about pitocin and just, more or less giving it to her and not giving her an epidural as soon as she asked for it. But then she loses it and believes that it was the Pitocin that ruined everything and things like that.
    I’m sometimes wondering what doctors (who also have to protect themselves and their livelyhoods) are supposed to do. What are they supposed to do when things go bad quickly, when they know that if they don’t get the baby OUT NOW within 5 minutes it will die and the woman is screaming and crying and freaking out, trying to pull the needles out of her arms?
    What decision are they supposed to make? Wait until she calms down and then get her consent to remove the stillborn baby?
    What we need to acknowledge is that those things happen and that they hurt and traumatize, and not deny that and tell women to STFU you’re both alive.
    I think actually educating women about what can happen and what doctors will have to do in such situations might prevent a lot of harm, but that won’t happen if women are taught about a “wonderful natural process”

  163. 163
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    Giliell wasn’t talking about birth rape. She was talking about the fact that “not every traumatic birth experience is because some evil OB/gyn victimized a woman” (comment 67), where “every” really means “every”.

    “not every traumatic birth experience is because some evil OB/gyn victimized a woman” is dismissive of birthrape-type experiences. Skeptifem didn’t bring up traumatic birth experiences in general, she brought up birthrape.

    Think about it this way: what if Skeptifem had been talking about garden-variety sexual assault trauma and someone had answered “well not every traumatic experience is because some evil man victimized a woman”? The Horde would have come down on them like a load of bricks, that’s what.

    Dianne, acknowledged and thank you. Considering the level of vulnerability a laboring woman often has to her attendants, it is mindboggling to me that people would fail to consider how women just might make birth choices based on their feeling of safety from abuse.

  164. 164
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Brownian and Josh:
    Mr Darkheart does the same thing!

    And now my two big cats (Harley and Maggie) are both eating out of Pickles’ bowl.

    Poor Pickles.

  165. 165
    RichardAustin

    Ing:

    Got official job offer. Starts on monday. Need to brush up on my culture techniques by then ^-^.

    It’s an upgrade in pay too yay!

    \o/

  166. 166
    Doug Hudson

    Ogvorbis @135, Thanks, that is comforting.

    Re: Shakesville, Shakesville is a great place if you are looking for safe space. Sometimes the moderation seems over the top, but that is the price they are willing to pay to provide a safe space to as many people as possible.

    Its not a great place for thrashing it out with trolls or mocking the religious–that’s what Pharyngula is for! Different sites with different purposes.

  167. 167
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Also:
    Caine:
    EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

    *faints from cute overload!*

    Ing:
    Have some scrumptious birthday cake ice cream to celebrate!
    *jams into USB port!*
    It might be a little melty when it gets through to your end. D:

  168. 168
    Anthony K

    Holy shit! Toni Basil’s 1983 hit “Mickey” is a cover?

    WHAT ELSE HAVE YOU BEEN KEEPING FROM ME?!

  169. 169
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    Gilell, we crossposted, and I appreciate that you’re willing to walk back and clarify. I do think, though, that conflating general traumatic-because-it’s-painful-and-exhausting births with traumatic-because-of-unneccessary-dehumanizing-treatment births helps to perpetuate the second kind of trauma.

    I don’t know much about birth in Germany except IIRC that practices are slighly more liberal there (if only because no one need ever worry about the financial side of childbirth!), but I have a hard time wrapping my mind around blaming American natural birth advocates (the birthing women themselves, not business owners or professionals) for the state of the natural birth movement because those women are responding to a definite and real set of problems with hospital birth in the US. It always feels a bit like blaming the problems with TAM on the terrible women who speak out about problems with TAM.

  170. 170
    birgerjohansson

    dianne:
    “Anyone else feel like we ought to move Audley to the Pharyngula island for the duration of her pregnancy so she can be separated from Horrorsister and her unpleasant job?”

    Since summer weather has finally arrived to Sweden I recommend the “Österlen” region not far from Malmö.
    They even have a megalith structure just 100 miles away, and some nice medieval cathedrals plus a castle.
    — — — — —

    I know Wales is originally “Cymryn” but what is the original name of Scotland? “Land” is clearly germanic, not celtic.

  171. 171
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Josh:

    Oooooh, Tony. Beware Shakesville. Srsly. There is. . .much fail. You may want to do some background reading. Not to say you can’t get a lot of good out of it, but it’s kinda a cult now. Just sayin’.

    Duly noted.
    Thus far, I’m just reading the posts on Feminism 101. I haven’t made it up to any present day material. Nor am I reading any of the comments.
    ****

    Cipher:

    I hope you’re able to get that ceiling fixed asap (for the least amount of money possible).

    ****

    Brownian:

    (Trigger warning for homophobia and stupidity. Also, tyrannical needs to read a book on evolution.)

    I’m already bummed out for some unknown reason.
    A song that triggers memories of M came on at the gym, causing me to miss him incredibly and resulting in me cutting my workout short b/c I couldn’t get it out of my mind.
    Now this homophobic sack of shit comes into TET?
    I really shouldn’t have clicked on the link you provided Brownian. I’m not in the mood to be told that I’m some fucked up mistake.
    I’m sure as hell not in the mood for anyone to say that my best friend was a fucked up mistake.
    TYRANNICAL: you are a piece of work. I hope you followed everyone’s advice and got the hell out of here. This gay man doesn’t have the slightest bit of patience today to deal with people like you.

  172. 172
    Cipher

    Re: Shakesville, Shakesville is a great place if you are looking for safe space.

    And are not trans, sounds like. (I’ve heard of other privilege type problems there too, but that’s just one I read about recently.)
    (Note: The person referred to as xpanasonicyouthx in that article appears to be none other than Mark of MarkDoesStuff fame. :D)

  173. 173
    Matt Penfold

    I know Wales is originally “Cymryn” but what is the original name of Scotland? “Land” is clearly germanic, not celtic.

    Cymru actually. The Scots Gaelic for Scotland is Alba.

  174. 174
    Paul

    Just want to make sure people see this, from Greta’s blog:

    The conversation here in my blog about racism in the atheist community has been largely civil and productive.

    The conversation on Twitter… not so much.

    One theme in particular keeps cropping up — the theme that this isn’t really a problem, coupled with a hyper-skeptical demand for evidence and examples of this racism. (As if we needed more freaking evidence that racism is a real thing.)

    So I want to collect examples. If you have seen or experienced examples of racism in the atheist and/ or skeptical communities — can you please comment here? Thanks.

    BTW: My Twitter handle is @GretaChristina .

    Since commenters here tend to have an inclination towards intersectionality, and have made similar lists before regarding feminist issues.

  175. 175
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    I’m going to stop discussing birth because I don’t want to be upset or stressed or frustrated today. Not a flounce though, just notice that I’m not ignoring or angry.

  176. 176
    Matt Penfold

    The Scots Gaelic for Scotland is Alba.

    Although strictly speaking, Alba does not cover all of what is now Scotland, and does include the Isle of Man. However, it is the word used in modern Scots Gaelic to refer to Scotland.

  177. 177
    Inaji

    Ing, Congratulations!

  178. 178
    David Marjanović

    The Scots Gaelic for Scotland is Alba.

    Doesn’t that just mean Great Britain (the entire island)?

    Anyway… “original”… Gaelic arrived in western Scotland around the same time as Old English arrived in southern Scotland.

  179. 179
    David Marjanović

    Oops, cross-posted.

    Anyway, it’s still not clear what “Pictish” was: a language related to Welsh, a non-Indo-European language, or both ( = two or more languages in total). It’s practically unattested. :-(

  180. 180
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Brownian
    25 July 2012 at 4:45 pm
    Holy shit! Toni Basil’s 1983 hit “Mickey” is a cover?

    WHAT ELSE HAVE YOU BEEN KEEPING FROM ME?!

    A woodchuck can chuck 2 cords of wood and rosebud was a sled

  181. 181
    Matt Penfold

    Doesn’t that just mean Great Britain (the entire island)?

    Not in Scots Gaelic, although it might well do in other languages.

  182. 182
    Matt Penfold

    Not in Scots Gaelic, although it might well do in other languages.

    In Welsh, Scotland is Alban, in Manx, Nalibin, and in Irish Gaelic, it also Alba. I have no idea what Scotland was called in Cornish or Breton I’m afraid. Old English seems to have either used Alba or Caledonia.

  183. 183
    Matt Penfold

    Doesn’t that just mean Great Britain (the entire island)?

    Although the word Albion does refer to the whole of Britain.

  184. 184
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    Holy crap this is so cool have you seen it where you equals all of you every single one because it is that cool?

    http://www.zefrank.com/scribbler/scribblertoo/

    I made this http://www.flickr.com/photos/28465371@N04/7646473056/in/photostream/lightbox/

  185. 185
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Esteleth:

    Got a call from the doc. The test results.

    It is official. Five years cancer-free.

    :::Doing the happy dance for Esteleth:::

    ****

    Tyrannical:

    I just have to state what I honestly believe is to be true, or at least worth considering to be true.

    How about you go educate yourself asshat.
    You honestly believe there’s something wrong with gay people? Based on what? Your experiences in life? Your precious holy book?
    Huh?
    By Odin, I need to puke. Thank you so much you putrid pus sack.

    I’m new here, so cut me a little slack just because we disagree.

    DISAGREE??
    You little fuckwad, this isn’t a disagreement. You’re telling a bunch of people here that they’re biological mistakes. Where the hell is your biology degree?
    How would you feel if someone said you’re a mistake because of your sick views? You don’t have any goddamned proof that homosexuality is a biological mistake. Do you realize you’re talking about human beings here? Do you care?
    What am I saying…of course you don’t care.
    Go back to the Phelps clan where you belong.

    ****

    Josh:

    Horde, please help. Please express yourselves at Mano Singham’s. I literally cannot believe what I’m reading:

    I’m sorry, but I can’t do that right now. I’m in a horrible mood and that’s likely to just make it worse. Perhaps when I get off work tonight, or tomorrow.

    ****
    Audley:

    or she’ll get all whiney that I don’t appreciate her “help” and I become the bad guy yet again (bad outcome).

    I’m going with this one, sadly.

    ****

    Caine:

    New Rubin’s Ratlets pics up: http://needleprovocateur.wordpress.com/

    Their eyes are open. :D

    I was about to ask someone for some pics of ratlets, kittens, puppies or piglets to brighten my day and you came along with this.
    I know it wasn’t for my benefit, but it helped. Thank you.

    ****
    Ing:

    Got official job offer. Starts on monday. Need to brush up on my culture techniques by then ^-^.

    It’s an upgrade in pay too yay!

    Woo Hoo! Congrats!
    Now it’s party time.
    Party at Pensacola Beach!

    ****
    Josh:

    They’re just so warm and soft and nommable.

    For the longest time, I didn’t quite get where ‘Nom, Nom’ came from (I understood what it meant). A few days ago, I was at TARGET looking through tee shirts and came across a Pac-Man shirt which had NOM NOM NOM on it (didn’t buy it though; I had to buy the Avengers Tee Shirt with the big ‘A’ on it).

    ****
    Audley:

    Brownian and Josh:
    Mr Darkheart does the same thing!

    I do too.
    At least to Kayta. Cassie doesn’t care for it and her claws are sharp.

    ****

    Doug and everyone:
    Thanks for the advice re: Shakesville.
    I came across it through one of the links on the Pharyngula Wiki and liked a lot of what I’ve saw about feminism. I didn’t plan on reading any of the comments prior to hearing the advice given here, and I certainly plan on staying away from them now.

  186. 186
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    but I have a hard time wrapping my mind around blaming American natural birth advocates (the birthing women themselves, not business owners or professionals) for the state of the natural birth movement because those women are responding to a definite and real set of problems with hospital birth in the US.

    You know, the thing is that I’m not sure it’s true. Not that there aren’t definite problems with hospital birth in the USA and elsewhere (in Germany it mostly seems to depend on which hospital/Ob/gyn/midwife you choose), but that this is what actually fuels the natural childbirth movement. Because they seem to be not women who had traumatic experiences and histories of abuse, but women who buy into the naturalistic fallacy and shun the very idea of modern medicine and deny the very fact that childbirth is fucking dangerous. Some of the stories I’ve read, stories that use the term “birth rape” are stories of traumatic births, with lots of shit happening quickly, people shouting, pushing, holding, doing, but that fall under what I called “category B”. And retrospectively the women blame it on the people involved because they just can’t believe that their birth went horribly wrong. Because it can’t be the fault of nature, so it has to be the fault of the doctor. Had xie only left her for another hour, had xie not given her Picotin.
    The whole mindset of the natural birth movement is fallacious.
    I consider most women who do it to be victims of fraudsters. Because those who propagate the lies just know that the data doesn’t support them the way Ken Ham knows it.

  187. 187
    Anthony K

    A woodchuck can chuck 2 cords of wood and rosebud was a sled

    [Writing] “…and rosebud was a sled.” Got it.

    So that’s it then? I’m all up to date?

    If I learn something new after this I’ll be damn pissed, Rev.

    I do too.
    At least to Kayta. Cassie doesn’t care for it and her claws are sharp.

    BB’s fond of stretching out his little arms and laying one paw on an arm, hand, or face. More than once he’s tried this while lying close to my or the GF™’s head and ended up punching us in the eye.

    He’s so loving. And clumsy. That’s why I like to come at him from the side with my NOMing.

  188. 188
    dianne

    Well this is such a fucking surprise. Expanded Medicaid=lower mortality. Such a shock!

  189. 189
    birgerjohansson

    Cat’s entertainment: The Dark Knight Rises. A feline perspective on the latest Batman film http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/opinion/columnists/cats-entertainment-the-dark-knight-rises-2012071334323
    — — — — — — —
    Video. Ah yes, the good old days when you could actualy see music videos on MTV.
    My favourite (in MTV Europe) was the program “Alternative Nation”.
    .
    So we have a Tea Party orchestra collaborating with a giant man-eating spider? Obviously an allegorical prophesy of things to come 20 years from then. Those Cure guys must have amazing powers.
    — — —
    Fans of Terry Pratchett and Douglas Adams might like Jasper Fforde. Every year, his Brit fans have something called the Fforde Ffiesta. Or Fforde Ffair? (too late at night to recall)

  190. 190
    dianne

    Considering the level of vulnerability a laboring woman often has to her attendants, it is mindboggling to me that people would fail to consider how women just might make birth choices based on their feeling of safety from abuse.

    But will they get that from the NCB movement? I don’t have statistics, but I’ve heard stories of midwives leaving women alone during labor, refusing to take them to the hospital or even allow them to call the hospital themselves, and performing painful procedures without consent or even explanation. And you’re alone with them at a homebirth. Not a good solution, IMHO, much as I agree that there’s a problem.

  191. 191
    dianne

    Oops. Just read kristinc’s later comment about not wanting to discuss this further for now. Sorry. I’ll shut up now.

  192. 192
    Matt Penfold

    But will they get that from the NCB movement? I don’t have statistics, but I’ve heard stories of midwives leaving women alone during labor, refusing to take them to the hospital or even allow them to call the hospital themselves, and performing painful procedures without consent or even explanation. And you’re alone with them at a homebirth. Not a good solution, IMHO, much as I agree that there’s a problem.

    Here in the UK the trend is towards midwife led units, based in hospitals, so that in the majority of cases where nothing goes wrong there is no “over medicalisation”, but in cases where intervention is needed, the people and equipment are on hand.

  193. 193
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Tony:

    I had to buy the Avengers Tee Shirt with the big ‘A’ on it

    The red one?

    I was wearing that shirt yesterday! How cool is that?

  194. 194
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Sorry, kristinc
    Didn’t read that before posting. And my bed is calling loudly anyway.

  195. 195
    birgerjohansson

    Addendum to 189:

    “The Fforde Ffiesta.
    The annual gathering for those who like to embrace absurdity” http://www.ffordeffiesta.co.uk/

  196. 196
    Portia (aka Smokey the Advocate)

    A few days ago my cousin recommended homeopathy to me…I asked her to explain to me how homeopathy works and at one point she actually said “And there’s so little of the bad stuff in the water that it doesn’t affect you…er I mean it doesn’t harm you…” Eventually she just yelled at me that I just like to debate therefore she wasn’t talking about it anymore…do you all have people like this is your life? How do you deal with it…I’m losing what little patience I ever had. At what point do you give up on the world and leave it to wallow in its ignorance?

  197. 197
    Portia (aka Smokey the Advocate)

    Congrats Ing and Esteleth :D

  198. 198
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Audley:
    I bought the red one.
    Also have the navy blue one.
    ****
    Pet Peeve:
    I hate how so many graphic shirts have logos or designs plastered all over them. I don’t mind images covering the whole front (or front and back) *sometimes*, but I see them all too often. Sometimes I want something understated. You know, a cool design in the upper corner of the shirt or along the side (I also wish so many companies didn’t feel the need to center their design on the chest. Why can’t a picture or phrase be near the waist for instance?). I wish the Avengers shirt had the ‘A’ a bit smaller too.

  199. 199
    Matt Penfold

    I hate how so many graphic shirts have logos or designs plastered all over them. I don’t mind images covering the whole front (or front and back) *sometimes*, but I see them all too often. Sometimes I want something understated. You know, a cool design in the upper corner of the shirt or along the side (I also wish so many companies didn’t feel the need to center their design on the chest. Why can’t a picture or phrase be near the waist for instance?). I wish the Avengers shirt had the ‘A’ a bit smaller too.

  200. 200
    Matt Penfold

    I hate how so many graphic shirts have logos or designs plastered all over them. I don’t mind images covering the whole front (or front and back) *sometimes*, but I see them all too often. Sometimes I want something understated. You know, a cool design in the upper corner of the shirt or along the side (I also wish so many companies didn’t feel the need to center their design on the chest. Why can’t a picture or phrase be near the waist for instance?). I wish the Avengers shirt had the ‘A’ a bit smaller too.

    The issue I have is when it is a corporate logo splashed across the front the t-shirt (Nike, Addidas etc) and they want me the pay £30 to buy it.

    Sorry, if you want to walk around advertising your company on my chest, we should be discussing how much you are going to pay me for doing so!

  201. 201
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Matt:
    You hit submit too soon, huh?

  202. 202
    Anthony K

    do you all have people like this is your life? How do you deal with it

    potato + tailpipe

  203. 203
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Matt:

    The issue I have is when it is a corporate logo splashed across the front the t-shirt (Nike, Addidas etc) and they want me the pay £30 to buy it.

    I can definitely understand that.
    Sometimes I don’t mind it (usually it’s b/c the shirt is a cool design), but I often don’t buy products (shirts or otherwise) that prominently display the corporate logo. I like how POLO shirts have the little design off center towards the shoulder. It’s there, but not so in your face.

  204. 204
    Portia (aka Smokey the Advocate)

    Brownian:

    Guffaw. Thanks for that one.

  205. 205
    Weedless Monkey

    potato + tailpipe

    I’m assuming this has nothing to do with motor vehicles.

  206. 206
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Portia:

    do you all have people like this is your life?

    Oh my gawd, you have no freaking idea. Just last night, one of my sisters put up a facebook post about the dangers of the electro-magnetic field from compact florescent light bulbs.

    *headdesk**headdesk**headdesk!*

    Most of my family buys into the alt-med crap– although as far as I know, none of them have tried homeopathy, they seem to prefer herbal cures and being spiritual and crap like that.

    How do you deal with it…I’m losing what little patience I ever had.

    Facebook flame wars, mostly. But, yeah, getting through to my family (who are not dumb people) is a losing battle I feel.

  207. 207
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Holy shit! Toni Basil’s 1983 hit “Mickey” is a cover?

    WUT? How did I not know that? “Mickey” was my first pop 45 rpm. I begged it off Jennifer, who lived upstairs with her mom Kathy. Kathy vacuumed every day at 6 in the morning, then did calisthenics. Which provoked my mother (this behavior should sound familiar) to get up, light her first cigarette, then whack on the ceiling with a broom while yelling “Jesus fuckin’ Christ lady! Can’t you keep your fat ass in bed until a reasonable hour? Jesus!”

  208. 208
    thunk: turmite city

    Augh…

    Still can’t get myself to write quizbowl. *headdesk*.

    I’m too lazy to do anything this week.

  209. 209
    jimnorman

    A friend, who reports she is on some sort of spiritual exploration, wants to know how a fundamentalist can reconcile a young earth with the paleo diet. I’ve already registered my two cents about the pathetic YEC perspective. I am now thinking that pitting the paleo diet against it is doubly silly. Is the paleo diet not patently ridiculous? What says Pharyngula?

  210. 210
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    wants to know how a fundamentalist can reconcile a young earth with the paleo diet.

    http://xkcd.com/966/

  211. 211
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Vanity Warning—Lousy Canuck made my Total Eclipse of the Doodz parody song a top-level post. Since it got buried in TET you all need to go over their and read and leave comments about how bloody much I rock and how you want to have my babies.

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2012/07/25/a-song-by-josh-about-the-skeptical-sexism-wars/

  212. 212
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Their? THEIR? It’s “there.”

    I blame this guy Paul commenting on some other thread.

  213. 213
    Nutmeg

    Caine:

    Their eyes are open. :D

    Eeeee! Squinty little sleepy-looking ratties! So cute!

    When my dog looks like that, we call her “smushy face”. It’s a particularly nom-able look.

    **

    Congrats to Ing and Esteleth!

  214. 214
    carlie

    Holy shit! Toni Basil’s 1983 hit “Mickey” is a cover?

    HOLY CRAP YOU BLOW MY MIND.

    Even moreso because I just introduced my child to “Hey Ricky” the other day (somehow he had missed it, although he’s a huge Weird Al fan) so it’s been in heavy listening rotation lately.

  215. 215
    carlie

    Hey Ricky

  216. 216
    The Mellow Monkey

    Caine, Rubin’s ratlets are some fine looking little rodents! Such gorgeous colors on those coats, too. I love me some colorful ratties.

    I just got back from seeing my eldest nephew, who is now on lithium. It was surreal. For so long now he’s been incapable of holding a conversation, thinking ahead, or showing the slightest degree of empathy. It was like seeing someone finally wake up from a long sleep. He was able to have a normal conversation and talk about reasonable plans for the future. He talked about turning down drugs a co-worker offered him. He apologized to my sister for all the things he did to her (theft, threats, and getting himself sent to in jail) and made her sob. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard him actually apologize before in a sincere manner.

    I really worry about him getting off his meds. As destructive as he’s been to the family, I desperately want him to be healthy and happy.

  217. 217
    ChasCPeterson

    He-Man Slime Pit!
    “Evil Pit of the Gruesome Ooze”

    According to the packaging, and a minicomic entitled “Escape from the Slime Pit”, the slime has the ability to transform the victims into mindless slime zombies, who are totally loyal to Abbie Smith.

  218. 218
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Hey look, here’s a news story combining my two favorite things! New Jersey and Virgin Mary sightings.

    Wait, did I say “favorite”? I meant the opposite of that.

  219. 219
    ChasCPeterson

    hee! Here‘s the mini-comic!
    (I think the 2-headed dude is Welch.)

  220. 220
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Josh:

    Minor quibble: No, I don’t. I vape. Why do I care? Because there’s an effort culturally to equate the two and pretend the health damage is the same, and if I were stronger I’d quit nicotine altogether. . .blah blah. Not a big deal. Just sayin’:)

    Noted. But we’re still talking classism here.

    Audley:

    Taking bets on asshole sister’s reaction!

    Column B.

    Also, that Virgin Mary tree…. has nobody in the crowd ever seen a suggestive knothole before?

    Janine, re Mano: maybe it was just a cumulative effect? I don’t know.

    Ing, congratulations.

  221. 221
    Anthony K

    My nephew had that toy (and a pretty hefty collection of He-Man toys, given his mom’s relatively low income at the time).

    It was fun.

  222. 222
    Inaji

    how you want to have my babies.

    Josh, you know I love you, but want your baby? No. ;)

    Nutmeg & Caerie, thanks on the ratlets. I think they are going to be *stunning*. Not a hoodie in the lot, either. I think one of the uber pale ones is going to have ruby eyes, like Rubin.

    Caerie, I hope things work out for your nephew. Sounds like a huge change.

  223. 223
    PZ Myers

    #217: My kids had one of those things. It was disgusting.

    They loved it.

  224. 224
    The Mellow Monkey

    Caerie, I hope things work out for your nephew. Sounds like a huge change.

    Thanks, it has been. All the rehab in the world wasn’t going to do a damn bit of good when he kept seeking things out to try to self-medicate. If he can have a little peace, maybe he can finally work on everything else.

  225. 225
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Tonight Ima make fried green tomatoes (from my own garden) and tilapia.

  226. 226
    Doug Hudson

    Re: Shakesville and Trans*, yeah there were some unpleasant incidents, now that I think about it. Personally I think they’ve tried to address that, but then, I’m not Trans*, so my opinion doesn’t really matter.

    I guess I’m just a Shakesville cultist. Hopefully that doesn’t preclude being a fan of Pharyngula as well.

  227. 227
    carlie

    Tonight Ima make fried green tomatoes (from my own garden) and tilapia.

    Fuck, my tomato plants have just now set flowers, and they’re looking none too good. :(

    Doug – I use a different nym at Shakesville, but I’ve been a regular there for years and years. (hence the different nyms – when I first started on blogs I had a different nym for each blog, and then kind of had to stick with them even when there was some overlap because of the history buildup) I think it’s possible to be both.

  228. 228
    Pteryxx

    hey, did y’all see this? Eagle Scouts are returning their medals to repudiate the Boy Scouts of America’s stance excluding gay participants.

    Since 1911, about 2.1 million men have earned an Eagle Scout award. And it has serious implications once you graduate high school. There are scholarships. Eagle Scouts who enlist in the military after high school can start off with a higher rank than their peers. The adult Eagle Scouts I know have told me that they’ve gotten interview call-backs or even job opportunities because the award was on their resumes. Basically, it’s more than just this medal you pick up at age 17. For many men, it’s a lifelong position—and one that demonstrates a commitment to serving others and caring for the community.

    So when Eagle Scouts start returning their medals to the Boy Scouts of America, that matters. Especially when these men are making this decision because they think it’s the best way to demonstrate the values of being an Eagle Scout.

    The Boy Scouts of America bans participation in scouting by openly gay, bisexual, or transgender kids and bans GBLT adults from serving as scout masters. Legally, that’s their right as a private organization. But that doesn’t make it the right thing to do. Since the BSA doubled down on that position on July 17, I’ve seen letters from numerous Eagle Scouts who have sent their hard-earned awards back to the organization.

    The letter pictured above was written by my husband, Christopher Baker. He mailed off his medal on Saturday. You can read the full text below.

    http://boingboing.net/2012/07/23/eagle-scouts-stand-up-to-the-b.html

    Follow-up with more letters joining the protest here:

    http://boingboing.net/2012/07/25/more-men-join-the-ranks-of-for.html

  229. 229
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Thank you, Pterryx. And shame on any Scouts (who can) who don’t follow suit.

    I can’t adequately express how thrilling it is to finally be among the group of people exerting social pressure for a morally just cause and seeing it work It’s been a goddamn long time coming.

  230. 230
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Today is another fucking time course experiment.
    24, 18, 12, 9, 6, 3, and 1 hour time points.

    I am not going to sleep tonight. Or tomorrow, for that matter.

    Side rant: I tried to download Mountain Lion. Fucking App Store freezes at the payment confirmation page. WTF?

  231. 231
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Since I’ve been looking at ridiculous Twitter feeds all day, if you’re not into Bane Capital, how about Kim Kierkegaardashian?

  232. 232
    The Mellow Monkey

    So when Eagle Scouts start returning their medals to the Boy Scouts of America, that matters. Especially when these men are making this decision because they think it’s the best way to demonstrate the values of being an Eagle Scout.

    This just keeps choking me up every time I look at it. There are good people in this world, who’ll stand up for what’s right. It’s good to be reminded of that.

  233. 233
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    still threadrupt, still busy, but when i was reading some Pharyngula 2 nights ago that I had downloaded to read while off-line (which I was for nearly 3 days – horrors!!!), one of the littles (the 4 year old) noticed and took a dramatic liking to the crockoduck in the banner.

    Does anyone know if there’s any possibility of creating such a stuffy? She doesn’t have much imagination in naming her stuffies (stuffed cat = kitty, stuffed horse = horsey, stuffed white, snub-nosed whale = belugie, etc. …with the one exception that white dog with a bit of black = Spot)

    but this is a kid with great imagination in her play. She’s also a keen observer. I told her that birds are dinosaurs, then, when we saw a giant chicken-sculpture yesterday & I said that at that scale you could really see how closely related birds are to dinosaurs, she put in,

    “No. Birds ***are*** dinosaurs.”

    I stand chastised. But the point is, she’s eating this new knowledge up and her love for the crockoduc (crocoduck? sp help plz?) corresponds delightfully with my desire to introduce her to fabulously interesting concepts. Not least the concept that people can be idiots and therefore critical thinking, QED.

    So – With all the stuffies in the toy-store-record, how come I never see a crockoduck? And how can we change that?

  234. 234
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    I need to write a BrdU incorporation song.

    ♬ BrdU, fading, fading, as the cells divide…
    ♪ BrdU, tracing the clonal lineages…
    ♫ BrdU, glowing bright! ♩

  235. 235
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Esteleth –

    Congarats, that’s truly awesome. And, like Greta said about her knee, quite a testament to exactly the values of this blog.

    Good for you, good for science, good for evidence based medicine. Libations all around. Mine is a fruit smoothy (there are reasons why I didn’t drink these things for years – I was afraid I would like them too much and spend all my money on them. Yeah, I was right about that one. Throw bananas, ice, some non-dairy milk in the bottom 1/2 of a blender & fill the rest with almost any berry you can name and I can’t get enough. Ms. Crip Dyke has introduced me to my crack.)

  236. 236
    chigau (違う)

    Caught up!
    Congratulations for jobs and logs and others.
    Big hugs for those in need and smaller hugs for by-standers.
    Who has the grog?

  237. 237
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    *gives chigau a tankard of BrdU-laced grog*

  238. 238
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    SciAm blogger’s opinion on the “paleo diet”

  239. 239
    carlie

    Hey, it’s my first random twitter fight! I sent a tweet to the Chicago alderman who blocked a Chick-fil-a franchise from opening in his district thanking him, and I got a tweet from some random guy saying that no, it’s blocking rights rather than protecting them.

  240. 240
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    I just got Twitter spam from a Russian dating site.

    Am confused.

  241. 241
    Inaji

    Go, Eagle Scouts! That is beyond heartening to read. Thanks, Pteryxx.

    Mister is an Eagle Scout, I’ll let him know about this, he’ll send that medal right back.

  242. 242
    Inaji

    Crip Dyke, the only way you’ll get a crocoduck plushie is to make one.

  243. 243
    chigau (違う)

    Esteleth
    mmm tangy!

  244. 244
    carlie

    Plushie crocodile, plushie duck, some scissors and thread…

  245. 245
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Okay, chigau, in a few hours I’ll sac you and section your intestine, okay?

  246. 246
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Glad you like, it chigau.

    *evil laugh*

  247. 247
    thunk: turmite city

    Bad Esteleth! Poor, poor chigau!

  248. 248
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    Good morning, all.

    Congratulations, Esteleth.

    Thanks for the ehugs and kind words, Caine, Giliell, Beatrice, Audley, Dianne, Carlie, Louis, Pteryxx, Daisy, Nutmeg, Cicely. All you strangers who feel like friends.

    Dianne, it’s OK. Fortunately we’re Australian, so C’s partner (& husband for one day) doesn’t have bankruptcy worries.

    OgVorbis, big hugs. Your progress in memory, with logjam analogy, sounds very similar to my friend M, who has bad PTSD and started up the detailed memory return complete with vivid flashbacks when her abuser died and she went to the house again for the first time in decades. I hope it goes easy on you. Understanding does help you to ride it out, I gather.

  249. 249
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Sowwy.

    *offers thunk grog*

  250. 250
    Cipher

    This Tornado Loves You, which I have been either listening to or singing all day today.

  251. 251
    chigau (違う)

    oi!
    Am I going to turn into something …
    uuurrk.
    .
    .
    .

  252. 252
    Portia (aka Smokey the Advocate)

    Audley:

    Oh my gawd, you have no freaking idea. Just last night, one of my sisters put up a facebook post about the dangers of the electro-magnetic field from compact florescent light bulbs.

    *headdesk**headdesk**headdesk!*

    Oh jebus…that’s almost as bad as my dad who is constantly telling me about all the alien activity throughout history. And my sister believes she’s psychic but is decidedly not annoying about it…which is good I guess. My aunt is so alt-med she shouted in my face about bee pollen the other day. (“Well what are you going to trust, [Portia], the folk remedies or the scientific ones?!” “Uh, is that a serious question?”) Suffice to say, I feel your pain. Good thing TET is here to function as a support group, ha.

    Most of my family buys into the alt-med crap– although as far as I know, none of them have tried homeopathy, they seem to prefer herbal cures and being spiritual and crap like that.

    Lots of my family is into herbal cures as well. Raised by hippies and all that. My non-medically-educated self sees some merit to lots of them, but there’s obviously a limit. I was told “You can’t prove it doesn’t work!” the last time I asked “HOW does it work, though?”

    Facebook flame wars, mostly. But, yeah, getting through to my family (who are not dumb people) is a losing battle I feel.

    I feel like I’m losing friends that way…I’ve started to pull back on the facebook debates just because the social consequences are wearing on me. But the ridiculous crap that comes up often just begs a response. And it is all the more frustrating when you know they have the capacity to understand reality, they just lack the will.

  253. 253
    Portia (aka Smokey the Advocate)

    Carlie:

    I sent a tweet to the Chicago alderman who blocked a Chick-fil-a franchise from opening in his district thanking him, and I got a tweet from some random guy saying that no, it’s blocking rights rather than protecting them.

    Don’t tell him about Chicago not letting Walmart in without unions, they’ll freak out about the liberties! Oh wait…conservaturds would probably approve of restricting worker’s rights.

  254. 254
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Nah, you won’t turn into anything. You’ll still be all chigau-ish, just fluorescent.

  255. 255
    chigau (違う)

    fluorescent
    Cool!

  256. 256
    thunk: turmite city

    Okay. But most goverments claim I’m too young to drink. Does BrdU-enhanced grog produce higher Isp for the rocket engines?

  257. 257
    ImaginesABeach

    Crip Dyke -

    there is a company called childsown.com that makes stuffed animals from a child’s drawing. I don’t know if they could make a crocoduck, but it might be worth a try.

  258. 258
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Well, BrdU not alcoholic. But it will turn all the tissue it interacts with fluorescent.

  259. 259
    thunk: turmite city

    Well then. *imbibes*

  260. 260
    thunk: turmite city

    *gets the blacklight*

  261. 261
    The Mellow Monkey

    I have just been exposed to the most adorably stupid argument for theism on Facebook. Yes, it’s from an adult. Yes, it was serious:

    If there isn’t a god why is there heaven and hell?

    Spud bless you.

  262. 262
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    If there isn’t a god why is there heaven and hell?

    If reindeer don’t fly, how does Santa get around?

  263. 263
    rorschach

    If there isn’t a god why is there heaven and hell?

    If there isn’t a Santa why are there presents?

    If there isn’t a Joseph Smith why is there Utah?

    And who’s Mano Singham?

  264. 264
    oaksterdam

    Cipher, thanks for that. The Neko made me smile. this has been making me smile today. (takes about a minute for her to just sing the damn song already.)

    also making me happy.

    Biggest thing making my day: just knowing you people are here. Been lurking daily long enough to remember when Kenny showed up with the NDE!!11!eleventy!1!. Thanks to all y’all who spoke up during these last few threads – you know the ones – I don’t even have the words. Just know that some of us were following along amazed and in awe. Grog’s on me.

    Caerie, rage flail (love the addition, I gotta get one of those), I spend every xmas with creationist RWers. I’ve seen this exact argument. Good luck with that.

  265. 265
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Been off at work and otherwise busy, so in no particular order:
    @ Crip Dyke #233
    L can totally make a crocoduck stuffie for the little one, although we’ve had problems w/Customs delaying some of the things he’s sent to Canada. You’ve got my email, let me know if you’re interested.
    @ogvorbis:
    My jaw dropped at the sam part of your story as everyone else. My enitre sympathies, and *hugs* if appropriate

    @ Alethea
    *hugs* to you as well; my deepest condolences

    @Ing
    Congratulations. Yay for the new job.

    @Caine
    the ratlets remain adorable

  266. 266
    Cipher

    oaksterdam, your second link doesn’t click :( But I liked that first one!

  267. 267
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    And who’s Mano Singham?

    Christ, Rorschach. Read him and weep:

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/singham/2012/07/25/the-chick-fil-a-controversy/

  268. 268
    Cipher

    Oh yeah! I didn’t tell everybody!
    So, the ceiling was falling down because one of the toilets upstairs was pouring water all day.
    My mom made it stop pouring water, but obviously we’re going to have to, you know, fix it somehow.

  269. 269
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Cipher, is it your house or a landlord’s?

  270. 270
    Pteryxx

    aw Josh, thanks for the compliments in that other thread. *blush*

    Now you got me curious about your Surly-ramic. Is it okay to show photos?

  271. 271
    Cipher

    It’s our house – I’m back in ND now. I forgot to explain that part too.

  272. 272
    oaksterdam

    Whoops

  273. 273
    Wowbagger, Designated Snarker

    Gah, what is it about asshats who moan about people getting emotional in blog comments?

    People have emotions. When you say something that angers or upsets them, they have the right to express that in whatever fucking language they choose to use; that’s how they let you know that it’s happened. Just because you can’t exercise enough empathy to grasp why someone else might get worked up, doesn’t mean you have the right to tell them they shouldn’t.

    Fuck, but I’ve seen too much of this ignorant, privileged bullshit lately.

  274. 274
    Jadehawk

    But will they get that from the NCB movement? I don’t have statistics, but I’ve heard stories of midwives leaving women alone during labor, refusing to take them to the hospital or even allow them to call the hospital themselves, and performing painful procedures without consent or even explanation. And you’re alone with them at a homebirth. Not a good solution, IMHO, much as I agree that there’s a problem.

    IIRC, one of the writers at NLQ said she was subjected to birthrape by her homebirthing midwife…

  275. 275
    Hekuni Cat, MQG

    Caine, I just heard about Esme. I’m so sorry. Esme touched the lives of so many people she knew nothing about, but her admirers looked hopefully and gratefully for every word and picture you posted about her. She will be sorely missed.

    I’m glad Esme’s children have you, Mister, and Havelock to look after them. The pictures of them escaping from the cage are breathtaking. I look forward to hearing all about their lives and adventures.

    *hugs and much love*

  276. 276
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Pterryx-Lemme wait until I get the Surly Ramic, but then I promise I’ll post pics.

    Hekuni Cat-I got your lovely card in the actual paper mail the other day and it was such a nice thing. . thank you! I’ll be responding shortly, pen pal:))

  277. 277
    Hekuni Cat, MQG

    Josh, you’re welcome and I’m looking forward to it!

  278. 278
    thunk: turmite city

    Melting is proceeding over 97% of Greenland:

    http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=2160

  279. 279
    Pteryxx

    Good news via AronRa!

    Earlier this week, the Texas State Board of Education voted -unanimously- to reject creationist submissions, and teach evolution as a central and vital aspect of biology.

  280. 280
    thunk: turmite city

    Pteryxx:

    *celebratory bell-ringing*

  281. 281
    Pteryxx

    Maybe a good use for all those creationist and science-denial textbooks would be to use their pages as protective insulation over Greenland. >_>

  282. 282
    thunk: turmite city

    Pteryxx: Make sure to bleach them first; part of the problem is the lowering albedo of the ice.

  283. 283
    Hekuni Cat, MQG

    Mostly threadrupt, but:

    Althea, I’m so sorry to hear about your friend. *hugs*

    Obvorbis, *hugs*

  284. 284
    thunk: turmite city

    Sexism in Space continued:

    The TMA-11 re-entry a while back went roughly. From Wikipedia:

    The return flight of Soyuz TMA-11 was the first time two women flew together on board a Soyuz and it was the first time women outnumbered men aboard a spacecraft since Valentina Tereshkova’s solo flight in 1963.

    The spacecraft landed in Kazakhstan on April 19, 2008. Similar to Soyuz TMA-1 / Expedition 6 and Soyuz TMA-10 / Expedition 15, the Soyuz performed a ballistic reentry, a reentry steeper than a normal reentry, due to a malfunction and landed 475 km from intended landing point. This is the second such event in a row for Soyuz TMA…

    Anatoly Perminov, the head of the Russian Federal Space Agency, speculated that the ballistic reentry was connected to a Russian nautical superstition that having more women than men on a craft was unlucky. “This isn’t discrimination,” he stated when challenged on the point. “I’m just saying that when a majority [of the crew] is female, sometimes certain kinds of unsanctioned behaviour or something else occurs.” Perminov said he would try to ensure that the number of women would not exceed the number of men in the future.[18]

    Note the same thing happened on TMA-10 with an all-male crew. Nobody was complaining then.

  285. 285
    auntbenjy

    New Zealand gay marriage poll to crash here:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7354142/Parliament-to-vote-on-gay-marriage-bill

    Sorry if someone has already posted this.

  286. 286
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    My quirkiest cat is eating salmon. She really is not 100% convinced that salmon is actually food, though, so she spreads it out on the floor, hunts through it for the least suspicious bits (what her criteria for this is, I do not know) and eats those.

  287. 287
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Good morning

    Matt Penfold
    Don’t confuse US homebirth midwives with nurse midwives or European standard midwives. Registration for the NBC darling midwives requires something like “having attended 30 births with another midwife”. Yep, that’s getting your driver’s license after having sat in the passenger’s seat for long enough. They also don’t carry malpractise insurance.

    ++++

    do you all have people like this is your life? How do you deal with it

    Yes, and it’s hard. Because people get defensive and hurt and all upset just because you tell them that “Ehm, no, that’s actually not true”

    Caerie
    Wait, your nephew is my cousin?
    I know what you’re going through and wish you and your family good luck.

    ++++
    I remember He-man fondly. Never had any cause my mum thought them crap.

    ++++

    how you want to have my babies.

    Tenderly roasted and stuffed with garlic

    ++++
    Crip Dyke

    So – With all the stuffies in the toy-store-record, how come I never see a crockoduck? And how can we change that?

    Never put that question before a crafter.
    The easiest way would be to buy a crocodile plushie and a duck plushie and, well, mix ‘n’ match (plus, you can make it a duckodile mate!)
    At the museum where David works they had this wonderful sculpture/toy where kids could remove the “outer layer” and put it on again like a jigsaw, only that one side was the “dinosaur” side, with scales and stuff and the other one the bird side with feathers and stuff. David immediately noticed that they missed an important muscle.

    Gah, what is it about asshats who moan about people getting emotional in blog comments?

    Strawvulcan combined with shutting down people
    I remember that from my mum: You’re angry therefore you’re wrong

  288. 288
    Pteryxx

    I remember that from my mum: You’re angry therefore you’re wrong

    and the abusers corollaries: I hurt you therefore you’re wrong, and I don’t give a shit therefore you’re wrong. Currently on display in the Shame thread…

  289. 289
    Lyn M: G.R.O.S.T. (ADM) -- Membership pending

    @Caerie #261

    I have just been exposed to the most adorably stupid argument for theism on Facebook. Yes, it’s from an adult. Yes, it was serious:

    If there isn’t a god why is there heaven and hell?

    Spud bless you.

    Wow, that just … I mean you … Wow.

    If there isn’t a tooth fairy, why do we get new teeth?

  290. 290
    Lyn M: G.R.O.S.T. (ADM) -- Membership pending

    @Pteryxx

    and the abusers corollaries: I hurt you therefore you’re wrong, and I don’t give a shit therefore you’re wrong. Currently on display in the Shame thread…

    Talk about channeling my dad. And if you have actual knowledge from some source I didn’t tell you about first, you’re wrong. And if you get emotional, then I know you are just whining for attention because nothing matters unless I say so, therefore you’re wrong AND annoying.

    Ah, those days are gone. And about time.

  291. 291
    Pteryxx

    honestly, I was only *sexually* abused a little bit, that I can tell. The dismissal and gaslighting and invalidating going on in that thread’s far more triggering to me than the rape stories so many survivors came forward to share.

    Now I’m starting to recall how I wasn’t allowed TO LEARN without permission. No wonder I lay out citations every chance I get. *headshake*

  292. 292
    John Morales

    Pteryxx, that’s where the knuckle-dragging beetle-browed troll-bashers like Nerd and I come in — we may not have much social science expertise or first-hand knowledge, but we know specimens when we see them.

    (Not that any regular is less than expert at troll-bashing, of course, but grunts are always handy)

  293. 293
    Pteryxx

    Heck, I need y’all to counter my extreme good-faith-itis. Multiple tactics FTW. ~;>

  294. 294
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Maybe someone remembers when I was talking about that new government measure where employers take young people with no work experience to work for them for free, the workers only get a pittance from the government for it.

    Well, to be able to apply for that, one has to be on the unemployed bureau.

    Well, I’ve been kicked off the unemployed bureau (national employment service – I’m not sure of the correct translation).

    I’ve worked on contract for three months. I earned little, but one of those three months that little was over the limit I am allowed to earn and stay at the bureau.

    The catch : In order to apply for that measure above, one has to be unemployed (that is, on the employment service) for 90 days.

    So, I can’t apply to the service until August 20. Only 90 days after that I will be allowed the privilege of working for free and a couple of peanuts from the government.

  295. 295
    John Morales

    Beatrice, this may be rude of me, but: are you sure about that?

  296. 296
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    The thing is, I started working in April. I was checking the limits of how much I can earn in late March before signing the contract.

    Apparently, the limit was lowered at the end of March. I guess they didn’t correct it on the website or I missed it by a couple of days.

    Next time, if there is a next time, I’ll just open a separate account.
    Is that fraud? I think it might be, since I would be keeping separate accounts in order to hide earnings from the employment service.

  297. 297
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Yes, I’m sure.
    I couldn’t get the monthly stamp today. I went to see my advisor who wasn’t there, but her colleague checked the situation and informed me that there is nothing she can do.

    “You shouldn’t have worked then, that’s the law”. Not an exact citation, but close enough.

  298. 298
    birgerjohansson

    We are all susceptible to delusions http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21528745.700-we-are-all-susceptible-to-delusions.html
    — — —
    Z-pinch fusion rocket: “Alpharetta graduate seeking ‘Holy Grail’ of rocket propulsion system” http://phys.org/news/2012-07-alpharetta-holy-grail-rocket-propulsion.html
    — — —
    Shortened telomere length tied to dementia, mortality risk http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-07-shortened-telomere-length-tied-dementia.html
    — — —
    Mystery of Native Americans’ arrival http://phys.org/news/2012-07-mystery-native-americans.html

  299. 299
    Pteryxx

    Beatrice: *headdesk*

    Shouldn’t the limit *at the time of signing* apply over the contract? or would that be expecting too much decency and common sense from the programs involved?

  300. 300
    birgerjohansson

    I just realised the link above would go a long way to explain some of the weird beliefs you are discussing…
    “We are all susceptible to delusions” http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21528745.700-we-are-all-susceptible-to-delusions.html
    Believing you are possessed by a demon, but otherwise being perfectly functional (no shizophrenia).
    This kind of crap must be really common, substitute “demon” for a zillion other odd beliefs.

  301. 301
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    I signed it in april, but I was informing myself in march. I didn’t expect for it to change in the meantime, which was maybe a week or two.

    I should have just opened another account to be safe anyway. There isn’t a single thing left that I haven’t somehow fucked up.

  302. 302
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ birgerjohansson

    ‘Holy Grail’ of rocket propulsion system

    {theophontes, clad in long jacket with fedora pulled low, sneaks into TET via back door. Waits in shadows until birger walks past.}

    [whisper]

    Pssst, I have some 2,4,6,8,10,12-Hexanitro-2,4,6,8,10,12-hexaazaisowurtzitane going cheap…

    [/whisper]

    @ David M.

    [previous incarnation of TET] Dinosaurs:

    I have written to the management to complain… ;D

  303. 303
    Pteryxx

    argh… Beatrice, I wouldn’t call that *your* fuck-up. This sort of shit happens when a system’s badly designed with no safeties or precautions in it, with no concern for who it hurts. It’s designed to be a minefield, impossible to navigate without taking damage. To thin the herd.

    A system operating in good faith would have given warning, something like “This change will take effect on such-and-such a date” a month in advance. You were played. Please don’t blame yourself.

  304. 304
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Yeah, but I should have double checked and triple checked. I heard different info about that limit and for some reason thought what was written there is the right answer

    I was sure I asked my advisor about the limit, but now I’m not so sure any more. Or maybe she gave me the wrong number too. not that it matters anyway.

    Sorry was dumping stupid problems here.

  305. 305
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    These are far from ‘Stupid problems’, Beatrice.

    This shit frustrates me, just like my dad owing a fuckton of money for EI’s fuckup.

  306. 306
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Beatrice
    Argh shit. Government aren’t stupid, they’re assholes. Yes, let’s punish people for working and then claim that they’re parasites for not working. And punish them some more.

  307. 307
    carlie

    Portia – you were right on the money; his next tweet was about scumbag politicians taking away the rights of business owners. I said that there has never been a right to open a business wherever you want, and asked if he’d heard of zoning laws and urban planning.

    Jeez, Beatrice, that’s terrible. And not your fault.

  308. 308
    rorschach

    Watching a nice little movie called “The Woman in Black” with Daniel Ratcliffe tonight, quite enjoyable.

  309. 309
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    I’m an idiot. I’ve realized that of course opening another account wouldn’t help, since they are getting the info about any salary I might receive from the pension insurance bureau.

    So, the only answer is that I should have declined that job offer.

  310. 310
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Uhm, Josh, could you please tone down your violent fantasies a bit. I understand and share your anger, but I was raised with corporal punishment and the idea that I needed a good spanking once in a while and that I deserved it (how could I provoke my mother so terribly by putting my hands on my butt when she shouted at me so that she had to come down, take a stick and beat me with it? She still tells that story about how I made her freak out), so it really gets me when you write stuff like that. Not because I think you’d do it, but because of triggers, you know?

  311. 311
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Oh yeh gods, over on Twitter Thunderdoof has challenged PZ to watch something on youtube:

    @pzmyers u gotta watch this between 1-2 minutes. The rest is kickass too, but 1-2 minutes is the bit u should watch.

    It’s a video by “Girlsayswhat”, the Chill Girl Gold Standard who tells us that women have only one valuable thing and that is looks in since those peak early they afterwards feel compelled to “ellbow their way into men’s spaces” and since they suck (because they also never ever really work on anything or learn anything or accomplish anything) they then make other men do the dirty work for him.
    Yes, that’s “kick-ass”.
    Can we finally call him a full-blown misogynist who thinks that women are just fucktoys or are we still injustly labelling him?

  312. 312
    Kevin, Youhao Huo Mao

    Mystere was a fantastic, amazing show. If you’re ever in Vegas, see it. Also see O. I can’t say much about Ka since I’m seeing it tonight, but given how incredible Mystere and O were, Ka can’t be much worse (in fact, I’ve heard it’s Cirque’s best show)

  313. 313
    Louis

    Giliell,

    Can we finally call him a full-blown misogynist who thinks that women are just fucktoys or are we still injustly labelling him?

    Whether he is or isn’t (and I have an inkling he is) he’s certainly doubling down douchedonut of dastardly dimensions. Sad really, I like some of his videos.

    But then I expect everyone to have feet of clay.

    Louis

  314. 314
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    So, I just fired someone today.

    Yay for me, I guess?

  315. 315
    birgerjohansson

    theophontes

    Throw in some unobtanium and we have a deal. I will pay you with stem-cell-rich fetuses that fell off the back of a truck.

  316. 316
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    So, I just fired someone today.

    Yay for me, I guess?

    Wait, what?
    How can they fire you, you’re pregnant!
    I mean, you didn’t steal the coffee kitty, did you?
    Shit, I’m so sorry.
    Can we help?

  317. 317
    birgerjohansson

    American society explained? “A pinch of opportunity makes deep inequality more palatable” http://phys.org/news/2012-07-opportunity-deep-inequality-palatable.html
    (my comment: Allow one or two to get socially mobile and the rest of the peons will think they have the same chance)
    .
    Loss of Arctic sea ice ’70% man-made’ http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/26/arctic-climate-change

  318. 318
    Muse

    Giliell –

    I think you may have misread. It looks like Audley was the one doing the firing. Still sucks, but if a different way.

  319. 319
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Muse, Oh, Ok, thank you, I just read Audley and fired and panicked.
    Now I look a bit stoopid

  320. 320
    rorschach

    Ah shit, just saw the tweets on the Mick Nugent post. Who is a friend. I was going to go to bed…*sigh*

  321. 321
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    No no no! I’m not fired!

    I fired one of my guys. Here’s a pro-tip: Don’t call me a bitch while at work. I will fire your ass and my entire company will back me up.

  322. 322
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Audley
    In that case: Yay for you!
    Did you give him the URL of the slimepit so he can go and have a cry over there?

    Urgh, now I have to leave the flat and it’s HOT outside

  323. 323
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Beatrice, it’s entirely not your fault that the system over there is just as fucked up as the one over here. The fact that there wasn’t some type of direct notification to all petitioners of the change shows that not even a minimum of consideration was shown for jobseekers in this scenario. Actual consideration, of course, would have consisted of basing it on when you applied, not changing things at all, or not even having this stupid program and instead just have the government directly hire people for a while.

    @ Audley
    That can suck, but it sounds like the firee had it coming.

  324. 324
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Also: In the middle of a fb flame war with an antichoice nutter (not one of my friends, thank goodness) who thinks I’m desensitized and heartless because abortion “harms children”*. Question is, when do I drop the bomb that I’m nearly 7 months pregnant? I want to see this lady’s head explode.

    She also pulled out the argument that there has been an observation of a fetus trying to get away from the suction device. Besides pointing out that brain and nerve development aren’t advanced enough in the first trimester for a fetus to do anything purposefully and all of its motions are automatic, is there anything else I am missing?

    *As stupid as the “killing babies” rhetoric is, saying abortion “harms children” is even more idiotic. When did that become a thing? I can only recall seeing the “harms children” argument in the past few months or so.

  325. 325
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Audley:

    I fired one of my guys. Here’s a pro-tip: Don’t call me a bitch while at work. I will fire your ass and my entire company will back me up.

    YAY

    Question is, when do I drop the bomb that I’m nearly 7 months pregnant? I want to see this lady’s head explode.

    ASAP.

    She also pulled out the argument that there has been an observation of a fetus trying to get away from the suction device.

    Propaganda going back to at least The Silent Scream.

  326. 326
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @Caine #242 –

    I kind of thought that it would have to be hand made, I was just hoping that someone else had previously had this idea and would have a good idea how to go about it.

    Lo and behold, we get “child’s own”

    and also Gilliel’s great suggestion for buying a duck and a crock and mixing parts – which sounds like the best and easiest option, though I’ll also check out child’s own.

    I love Pharyngula. thanks, all.

  327. 327
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Audley
    send her this pic and ask her if she considers that to be a child. If yes, that’s an elephant.
    No, you’re not missing anything. Embryos have reflexes and react to outer stimuli. The fact that severed frog legs do that, too when you salt them tells you something about the significance.

  328. 328
    Portia (aka Smokey the Advocate)

    Carlie:

    I said that there has never been a right to open a business wherever you want, and asked if he’d heard of zoning laws and urban planning.

    Smart money is that the next one (if there is one) will be “The free market will solve any problems of discrimination that arise, because freedom”

    …ya know, because that has been soooo true throughout history. People just wake up and stop being bigots without social pressure or government intervention of any kind. Yep.

    Audley:

    Drop the Pregnancy Bomb by all means. Sounds like she’s dug herself deep enough to make it fun to watch the reaction. I haven’t heard “harms children” much, just “kills babies.” That video she references is blatantly fake, but I can’t find a source for that at the moment. Good luck. Oh, and way to go firing that guy, I wish I could rid my life of people like that, ha.

  329. 329
    carlie

    Smart money is that the next one (if there is one) will be “The free market will solve any problems of discrimination that arise, because freedom”

    Damn, you’re good. It was the “they don’t discriminate against anyone being in their stores” variant.

    I figured out what happened: the alderman retweeted my thanks to him (yay!) which magnified the visibility. I’ve got three going now who are all telling me how much I’m wrong. One of them at least looked at a source I posted to them and said I had a point (also yay!). Is it really bad that I know I should be annoyed, but I’m secretly relishing the arguing?

  330. 330
    Inaji

    Hekuni Cat, thank you. ♥

    Team Esme is doing very well. They are all out and free ranging now, coping beautifully. Full rats, just miniature! They have pretty much mastered how to get around (up/down the condo, get on the attached feeding table, how to climb up the martin’s cage to get to the oh-so-cool high shelf in the closet, which ladder leads to my desk and to the floor, etc.) and are having a blast.

    Just got breakfast set out for everyone: salad, dry mix, kitten chow, cheerios, chocolate ensure, water, tea and formula.

    Sam spent most of night nest building all over the damn place, now that he’s had a plague of ratlets following him around everywhere. He’s not sure what to think of them, although some of them are most certainly his kidz. Both he and Havelock are overjoyed to have access to the condo back, though.

  331. 331
    Portia (aka Smokey the Advocate)

    Damn, you’re good.

    I’ve argued with far too many libertarians.

    I figured out what happened: the alderman retweeted my thanks to him (yay!) which magnified the visibility.

    That’s really fun! No wonder you’re getting so much attention. How gratifying that one of them actually learned and adjusted their position accordingly.

    Is it really bad that I know I should be annoyed, but I’m secretly relishing the arguing?

    Not at all! I think it’s a great thing, especially given my lurker’s view of your impressive argumentation skills. Keep on keeping on. (And I won’t tell your secret, ha). I usually get so annoyed with liberturds so quickly I throw up my hands (“But a neighborhood could buy a fire truck!”)

  332. 332
    Inaji

    Audley:

    Don’t call me a bitch while at work. I will fire your ass and my entire company will back me up.

    ! Good for you, he deserved to have his ass canned.

  333. 333
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Good morning.

    I have a question (and this may be triggering, so read with care):

    Am I a sick person? In one of the dreams last nigh, I dreamt of my abuser and I ‘enjoyed’ what he was doing. And I remember enjoying it back then (well, I do now (apparently there was more (but this is rather low impact compared to the photos))). How they hell could I take pleasure in the abuse?

  334. 334
    Kevin, Youhao Huo Mao

    I am at a professional computer security conference. Some companies have booth babes at their booths . Why are there booth babes at a professional conference? If they want more women in IT they can start by abandoning the “IT professionals are horny teenagers” idea.

  335. 335
    carlie

    Oggie – that’s not uncommon. I’m sure many people here know good references, but I think it’s called “body betrayal” – it was just referred to recently in one of the threads, I think.

  336. 336
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Caine:
    Yay ratlets! Mr Darkheart sends his sympathies about Esme, he thought she was beautiful and sweet. He also loves being able to keep up with your rattie updates.

    Giliell:
    Thank you for the link! I will use it post haste. :)

    All: She brought up Chuck Colson. *snortle!* Yes, convicted felons are such a reliable source.

  337. 337
    Inaji

    Ogvorbis:

    How they hell could I take pleasure in the abuse?

    Do some reading about body betrayal. Your body will react to certain stimuli in the normal way, regardless of how much you may be recoiling in repulsion, fear, horror, etc.

    This is one of the most difficult things to reconcile about sexual abuse/assault. As I mentioned, I experienced my first orgasm at 9, during being raped by family member. The rape was bad, I was distanced, detached from it at that point, however, the orgasm hit home very hard, and yes, it felt good. This all left me in a state of miserable confusion for a very long time.

  338. 338
    Inaji

    Audley:

    Yay ratlets! Mr Darkheart sends his sympathies about Esme, he thought she was beautiful and sweet. He also loves being able to keep up with your rattie updates.

    Please tell him thank you. ♥ I got a couple more shots a few minutes ago, a bunch of ratlets like to pile on *top* of the igloo on the top shelf to nap. Idjits. :D

  339. 339
    rorschach

    I wish PZ would warn us before he drops a bomb like the smug thread. Wouldn’t have taken my sleep lollies that early otherwise. Now I’m going to miss all the fun !

  340. 340
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    To everyone:
    Thank you all for giving me the space to learn and the education to smack down antichoice arguments. Two years ago I would have not been able to defend abortion access without descending into *flailing rage filled incoherence*. The dumbass I’m arguing with now has resorted to the “God’s love” argument, so we all know that she’s lost.

  341. 341
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Thank you for the information about body betrayal. And I remember reading that here. Recently. And I failed to grok as it did not intersect with my knowledge.

    Scary. Not fair.

  342. 342
    RichardAustin

    Ogvorbis:

    Others have mentioned “body betrayal”. I think the layman’s concept would simply be that the body reacts mechanically to mechanically administered stimuli. You can no more control it than you can control your heart rate – in some cases, you can slow it down or speed it up, but you can’t stop it. Loud noises make us jump, smells can trigger memories, and certain activities – even done against our wishes – will release endorphins and dopamine and other “happy” chemicals into our systems.

  343. 343
    cicely

    Got official job offer. Starts on monday. Need to brush up on my culture techniques by then ^-^.
    It’s an upgrade in pay too yay!

    WIN!
    -

    So, the ceiling was falling down because one of the toilets upstairs was pouring water all day.

    Ouch! Two, two, two problems in one!
    You (and your wallet) have my sympathies.
    -
    Hekuni Cat! *pouncehug*
    -

    Earlier this week, the Texas State Board of Education voted -unanimously- to reject creationist submissions, and teach evolution as a central and vital aspect of biology.

    Huzzah!
    -
    *hug* for Beatrice. Sorry.
    -

  344. 344
    Muse

    Ogvorbis, allow me to put on my crisis line hat. Without breaking confidences, I can tell you that one of the most common things I have to tell people is that as much as it sucks, that’s normal. One’s body reacts to physical stimuli. It happens. It doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with you.

  345. 345
    Cipher

    The Shame thread has put me over the edge; I’m done in there for the day.

  346. 346
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    CIpher,

    well, torquilmacneil has turned out to be a dishonest fuck. No surprise there .

    And that’s why I don’t want to get involved in the smug thread. How much time are we supposed to waste educating each and every little fucker who has no intention of learning anything? Pteryxx tried, to no avail. I don’t see why we should have to be indefinitely nice to him, in some vain hope that at some point, after upsetting everyone (like you now) he might possibly learn a tiny little something.

  347. 347
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Listening to Janis Joplin. Makes me feel a bit better.

    Any thoughts about this camera model (link)? I was going with Carlie’s suggestion of Panasonic Lumix line.
    If not that one, maybe some other of the DMC-ZS [some number]. I managed to forget which models exactly the store has (I went there today after finding out about employment service, so I was a bit distracted).

  348. 348
    carlie

    Beatrice – I think the best thing you can do is to try them out in-store. You won’t be able to take pictures, but the “feel” of the camera in your hand is more important than it seems until you start using it. For example, I was positive I wanted a Nikon Coolpix (that’s the brand I’ve always gotten) until I picked one up – too thin, too small overall, I couldn’t deal with how tiny it all was for my sad motor skills and hand size.

  349. 349
    carlie

    …and it was instant. Picked it up, and somewhere the back of my brain went “NO NO NO NO NO”. I spent the better part of 10 minutes trying to convince my brain that no, the Coolpix was the one with the specs and price I wanted, but my sensory response said otherwise. Same with the Sony cybershot – too heavy!*

    *yes, I am Goldilocks.

  350. 350
    Pteryxx

    well, I educate because it works *for me*, and I don’t feel particularly betrayed or ashamed when some doucheconveyance shows it was all wasted on them. Maybe it’s helpful to spare other folks from trying it, I dunno. But I sure don’t advocate that everyone who’s frustrated, disgusted, triggered, or just has better things to do with their time OUGHT to put effort into educating.

  351. 351
    RichardAustin

    carlie:

    …and it was instant. Picked it up, and somewhere the back of my brain went “NO NO NO NO NO”. I spent the better part of 10 minutes trying to convince my brain that no, the Coolpix was the one with the specs and price I wanted, but my sensory response said otherwise. Same with the Sony cybershot – too heavy!*

    That’s perfectly legitimate. I bought my first DSLR because of how it felt in my hands – the one I’d planned on getting was too small and uncomfortable.

    If you want to get into taking pictures, you should have a camera you like holding.

  352. 352
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Pterryx—what I hate is that dishonest, partisan, passive aggressive people like lilandra get shielded from the consequences of their behavior. They get to whine about “cussing” and they get to ignore clear, reasonable, utterly uncontroversial requests to retract dishonest statements or acknowledge mistakes.

    This is a betrayal. It betrays decency, it prevents moral progress, and it retards the just social consequences that should play out. And it makes me fucking crazy.

  353. 353
    Pteryxx

    also I did shoot my mouth off in the Smug thread by asking folks not to complain about PZ’s request to back it down a notch. I’m willing to explain further here if anyone wants. (If they don’t, that’s fine too…)

  354. 354
    Doug Hudson

    Beatrice,

    When I engage one of the trolls, I don’t expect to change their mind; rather, I’m hoping to negate the influence of the troll on others reading the thread, and maybe even help some lurker understand the issues better.

    That’s how I’ve learned, by watching people argue against trolls, both here and elsewhere.

  355. 355
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Thanks, Carlie.
    Even with my freakishly small hands, I don’t feel comfortable clutching a tiny camera.

  356. 356
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    And she continues to ignore. How’s that niceness workin’ out for y’all?

  357. 357
    RichardAustin

    Doug:
    That’s a valid tactic. Like I said over there, the goal is to render people who poison the well harmless. You either do that by talking them into not poisoning the well, or you chase them out of town (since we don’t have jails – well, I suppose banning and TZT are sortof jails).

  358. 358
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    I don’t see why we should have to be indefinitely nice to him, in some vain hope that at some point, after upsetting everyone (like you now) he might possibly learn a tiny little something.

    People like torquilmacneil are not the target of education on a blog. Xe was here (well, on that thread) to play games. And xe was good at it.

    Think, though, about how many times, in the midst of a rhetorically bloody battle with the bastion of bastards, someone drops a comment, delurking, to thank those who have been shooting down the idiocy, the misogyny, the rape culture promulgation. It doesn’t happen often, but you do reach people.

  359. 359
    Pteryxx

    Josh:

    And she continues to ignore. How’s that niceness workin’ out for y’all?

    my admittedly socially incompetent instincts suggest that PZ might be trying to prove that point by clearing the field. I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said about letting dishonest tone trolls get away with it. Maybe by clearing the field, he’s trying to force her to put up or shut up by responding to the nice comments that remain.

  360. 360
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    But I sure don’t advocate that everyone who’s frustrated, disgusted, triggered, or just has better things to do with their time OUGHT to put effort into educating.

    Oh, I didn’t mean that you or anyone else shouldn’t do it, just this what you have written above. Just that all this calling for people to be nice is annoying when I see people trying and I’m trying, but at some point it’s obviously useless and we still get called intolerant when we finally snap.

    I won’t drag this further into TET, I might comment in the original thread or just fuck off.

  361. 361
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Ogvorbis,

    I don’t mind the bloody battle, just the expectation that we keep being nice about it.

    (so much for giving up the topic, as I promised)

  362. 362
    Pteryxx

    Oh, also kinda OT: dunno about the tinyurl link, but I’ve been pasting direct links to the Pharyngula femwiki in the Shame thread, and they’ve gone through immediately, no problem. Maybe something got fixed?

    test:

    http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Feminist_link_roundup#Allyship

  363. 363
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Pterryx—I hope you’re right in your diagnosis.

    Not that any of this matters, really, does it? There are clear enemies. That’s not going to change. The longer we put up with them the longer we have to wait for a better community.

    I’m done.

  364. 364
    Pteryxx

    …also, if this tone discussion is too annoying in TET, we can always move to TZT. Would that be an improvement?

    Beatrice: one problem with my educating at trolls, though, is that I’m potentially setting an example and shifting the acceptable methods of discourse, whether or not I intend to or actually advocate it. I can’t be sure that I’m not implicitly pressuring other people to be nice just by behaving as I do.

  365. 365
    Pteryxx

    Josh: well, PZ almost never makes a request like that. I assume he has better social skills, and more inside knowledge, than I do, and I’m guessing he has a good reason. (Not to mention it’s his blog, his rules, natch.)

  366. 366
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    It doesn’t really bother me if we talk about this here, I’m just not sure if others would rather keep TET clean of this while there is a whole thread on the topic.

    I can’t be sure that I’m not implicitly pressuring other people to be nice just by behaving as I do.

    For what it’s worth, I don’t think you are. I think your comments are very valuable.

  367. 367
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Pterryx, you go out of your way to make it clear that your preferred approach is not an implicit or explicit critique of a different or opposing approach. I’ve never felt scolded by you. Operating transparently and in good faith counts for a lot—it’s everything, really.

  368. 368
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Bah. Downloaded Mountain Lion on my desktop. Works great. Went to download it for my new laptop. App Store keeps crashing. Taking it to the Genius Bar this afternoon. Hopefully it is an easy fix.

  369. 369
    Pteryxx

    Heh – and being a socially dense, aspie type, my response is to flat-out ask “Hey people in TET, am I bothering you and should I take it to TZT instead?”

    For what it’s worth, I moved here because I think that *talking about justifying harsh tone* over in the Smug thread is, itself, continuing to color the discussion on a meta level. I think it’s interfering with what I perceive as PZ’s attempt to clear the field. I think IF I said any of this over there, I’d be inflaming the discussion in exactly the way PZ is trying to prevent.

  370. 370
    Pteryxx

    hee, thanks Josh. It’s kind of circular, because I make it explicit AFTER other folks, years back, justified their angry and cussy responses to subtle trolls. And it still doesn’t always work – remember baal asking all you harsh, mean commenters why y’all couldn’t be more like me? I laughed, but that did sting.

  371. 371
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    FWIW, I’m far more guilty of scolding other people for being too nice. I think I’m right sometimes, but I’m sure I’m wrong sometimes too.

  372. 372
    Cipher

    It did. :)

    I am not going back into the shame thread, but I am obsessing about the thing terry said about serial victims. I don’t know if I am one or not. I was not sexually abused as a child. I was, however, physically abused by two other children for several years, as I don’t think I’ve talked about here much but I talked about in PET. (Which is why I’m reading Cat’s Eye right now.) I tried to talk about it to an adult and was told that boys would be boys and to toughen up, and then when other members of my family found out there was one of those blowout fights that I considered to be entirely my fault; a therapist, also, asked me if I had been sexually abused by the two children, and told me when I said no that she wouldn’t be surprised because the outfit I’d worn in my first session with her showed so much of my breasts. Haha thaaaaanks.
    I had serious problems with it for a long time because of my physical reaction to pain, and until very recently the only person who knew about that part of things was my second rapist, who told me he had known for a long time that something like that had to have happened to me. And throughout the years, there have been incidents with violent men which I treated as unremarkable, until my best friend recently was told by someone else (who needs to not do this) about one of them, then got extremely upset when he figured out that a.) I didn’t think it mattered because I thought it was normal and b.) it had happened multiple times.
    And, you know, the whole dating two abusive rapists thing. And increasingly noticing that the second one – the one I trusted so much – was showing red flags since his second one-on-one interaction with me, and realizing that there is some evidence that there may have been others.
    I don’t know.
    :(

  373. 373
    Inaji

    Jesus, I need more tea. I’m not feeling remotely “civilised”. Someone get me scones and an etiquette primer on being all pink and ladylike, stat!

  374. 374
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    *Sets up a table with a white cloth, a bone china pot, and some cups.*

    Here, I made cucumber sandwiches and scones, dahling.

    *Pours some milk into a saucer for the ratties*

  375. 375
    Pteryxx

    heh, it’s not going to be a very civilised tea with a flood of ratlets exploring and popcorning all over everything!

  376. 376
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Sit, Pteryxx dear! Are you wearing a hat?

    *glares over the top of her glasses*

  377. 377
    Pteryxx

    Uh, yes, yes I am! *pops nearest ratlet on top of head*

  378. 378
    Pteryxx

    (if you put some peanut butter on top of your head first, the rat may even stay on. For a while.)

    <_<

  379. 379
    thunk: turmite city

    Ooh, tea!

  380. 380
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    well, torquilmacneil has turned out to be a dishonest fuck. No surprise there

    He’s a well-known asshole over at Ophelia’s to the point that she told him to STFU. And apart from using slurs and threats you have to go very far to make her say that.

    +++
    Um, I just got sent to bed by #1 until I stop enforcing the rule of not taking toys into the mouth.

  381. 381
    Inaji

    Thank you, Esteleth.

    Pteryxx, Havelock sits on my head all the time.

  382. 382
    carlie

    May I have tea without a rat on my head? It can sit in the saucer.

  383. 383
    Pteryxx

    d’aww. I’ve only had pocket rats, and one shoulder rat, but never a head rat. Though I did have one who liked *gnawing* on heads.

  384. 384
    Lynna, OM

    ALEC has been feeling the heat lately. Simply having a few media sources notice that ALEC exists, and that they do what they do in the way that they do it raised so many red flags that 25 corporate sponsors pulled out of the organization.

    I’m not sure why, but nobody seems to have noticed that when ALEC bigwigs began defending their methods they completely blew the “bipartisan” cover under which they had previously operated. Yes, ALEC used to claim to be completely bipartisan, which is sort of like mormons claiming to be not right wing because, you know, Harry Reid.

    The American Legislative Exchange Council has found itself in the crosshairs of a national campaign from critics, but lawmakers attending the annual conference in Salt Lake City this week say they won’t be intimidated by threats from liberal groups.

    “I know you’re being attacked by a lot of these leftist groups in your states. I know you are,” Ron Scheberle, ALEC’s executive director told lawmakers …

    “Through ALEC, corporate lobbyists actually sit behind closed doors … and vote as equals with our elected representatives on model bills that change our rights,” Lisa Graves of the Center for Media and Democracy told a group of about 120 ALEC opponents gathered Wednesday.

    Alliance For A Better Utah and others issued a report identifying 17 bills that were in many cases taken verbatim from the ALEC model legislation on topics and relying on ALEC ideas or principles on numerous other occasions.

    The groups contend Utah is the “crown jewel” for ALEC legislation, seeking to erode public education, undermining organized labor, and benefiting corporations over the public interest.

    ALEC’s goals dovetail nicely with the mostly regressive goals of the LDS Church, and of Utah’s far-far-right legislators. Utah helps to export these regressive goals, in the form of McLegislation, to other states.

    “ALEC is the poster child for non-transparent political infrastructure that puts corporate profits ahead of the public interest,” said Common Cause President and CEO Bob Edgar, a former Democratic congressman from Pennsylvania. “ALEC represents a pay-to-play system at its worst, a system where the most powerful corporations buy their way in.”

    Rep. Steve McDaniel, deputy speaker of the Tennessee House of Representatives and a member of ALEC since 1989, said the businesses that dropped their sponsorship of ALEC “caved in to pressure,” but legislators and ALEC supporters won’t be bullied.

    “I don’t think the liberal elements of this country are going to deter us as members of the legislatures, and most corporations are going to embrace these values that made this country great,” McDaniel said…

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/54560661-78/alec-corporate-group-groups.html.csp

  385. 385
    carlie

    THERE IS NOW A BOB ROSS SYMPHONY OF SCIENCE REMIX.

    here.

    Yay!

  386. 386
    Pteryxx

    oh, and I had a clothes rat – he wouldn’t be satisfied with just the pocket, he was up your pants legs, down your sleeves, exploring your underwear. And he was bossy and uncompromising about it, too! (his name was Maul, appropriately.)

  387. 387
    Cipher

    Nothing but Wicked, all day long!
    :)

  388. 388
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Beatrice, what Giliell said: Torquil Macneil has been pulling his dishonest hyperskeptical shit on Butterflies & Wheels for a long time. I haven’t seen him there in a while; hopefully Ophelia made him feel too uncomfortable to stick around.

    Josh:

    what I hate is that dishonest, partisan, passive aggressive people like lilandra get shielded from the consequences of their behavior. They get to whine about “cussing” and they get to ignore clear, reasonable, utterly uncontroversial requests to retract dishonest statements or acknowledge mistakes.

    I noted that you and I had a GMTA moment about her being a schoolteacher and how she possibly reacts to kids trying to defend themselves against bullies.

    Pteryxx, I disagree that comments about Thunderf00l’s racism should be off-limits, given that it has been obvious from his YouTube videos for a loooooong time. (Sorry if this is an outdated opinion; I’m way behind on the “Smug” thread.)

    Cipher, I’m really sorry so many adults failed you when you were younger. Do not get me started on how so many therapists don’t belong in that profession. (Or medical professionals in general. PZ’s comments about pre-docs in the kitten thread were both horrific and unsurprising to me.)

    A friend of mine alerted me to the existence of the “Thinking” Housewife, yet another example of “If you have to say it….” in user names, a while ago. Now General J.C. Christian has written about her spitting on the memory of Sally Ride.

  389. 389
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    *hands carlie a jaunty hat*

    Here, have some tea. I made enough for everyone.

  390. 390
    Lynna, OM

    A follow up to my post at 384: Here’s a partial list of the corporate entities that set up booths at the ALEC convention in Salt Lake City.

    Outside the meetings organizations like the National Rifle Association, the National Right To Life Committee, National Right To Work, Family Research Council, the Entertainment Software Association and Americans For Tax Reform pitched their agendas to lawmakers. More than four dozen booths were set up to advocate for their particular education reform, energy policy and various tax initiatives.

    Right. Such a nice group of reasonable people. I definitely want them to write legislation for my congress critters to introduce.

    Here’s an example of ALEC’s model legislation, an example in which Utah takes top prize for Most Bugnuts Rightwingery.

    A bill signed earlier this year by Herbert [Governor of Utah] — demanding that the Congress cede about 30 million acres of federal land to the state and threatening litigation if it does not — was adopted by ALEC as model legislation last year, but it has not passed anywhere else.

  391. 391
    Pteryxx

    Pteryxx, I disagree that comments about Thunderf00l’s racism should be off-limits, given that it has been obvious from his YouTube videos for a loooooong time.

    …buh? I never said THAT. I don’t think PZ said it either?

  392. 392
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Whoops, you’re right: PZ asked people not to demand that Lilandra back up her argument about Thunderdump being attacked in the backchannel.

  393. 393
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    PZ asked people not to demand that Lilandra back up her argument about Thunderdump being attacked in the backchannel.

    However, her accusations of abuse and foul language were, I think, focused on that thread but, when I asked about that, she refused to cite anything and claimed it was on a different unnamed thread. This one is odd.

  394. 394
    RichardAustin

    A certain other thread is reminding me of an episode of DS9. The Klingons have attacked the station and are mostly losing. In a last-ditch attempt at psychology, the general calls up Sisko and says, “Surrender now! Your shields are failing, my boarding parties are taking control, and my reinforcements are on the way!”

    Sisko simply and calmly replies, “My shields are holding, your boarding parties are contained, and my reinforcements are closer than yours are.” And the general takes his fleet and leaves.

    We keep hearing from people that our tone and condemnation – our fighting back – against racists and misogynists and bigots is splitting the community and needs to stop.

    … And yet, our shields are holding, we’re containing their bigotry – and we’re constantly finding reinforcements.

  395. 395
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    This one is odd.

    Respectfully, no. She’s a very common type that I wish more people recognized and called out sooner. She’s a liar and she’s perfected the art of posing as a delicate flower as camouflage when she’s called on it. Sadly, the persona works, which is why she gets away with such brazen bullshit.

  396. 396
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Richard, that was brilliant and perfectly apt. Yes. That, exactly.

  397. 397
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Also, due to a host of sexist social infrastructure, her pose is particularly effective for women who want to get away with being nasty pieces of work without being recognized for it.

  398. 398
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    It’s known in the literature as Celeste-Hale Syndrome.

  399. 399
    Pteryxx

    We keep hearing from people that our tone and condemnation – our fighting back – against racists and misogynists and bigots is splitting the community and needs to stop.

    y’know, this reminds me of the research showing that abortion does NOT entail horrible mental trauma for the patient, UNLESS she’s been indoctrinated to believe it’s a nasty sinful shameful act that will cause her horrible mental trauma.

    Why aren’t they calling on the misogynists to STFU and keep their hating to themselves for the good of the movement? THEY’RE the ones severing ties with anyone who won’t put up with their crap.

    “You’re dividing the movement by driving away perfectly good allies who happen to be women or minorities. Shut up and paste a fake smile on your face already!”

  400. 400
    Paul

    Josh: well, PZ almost never makes a request like that. I assume he has better social skills, and more inside knowledge, than I do, and I’m guessing he has a good reason.

    He had done similar on sciblogs before, at least trying to cool things down a bit when personal friends were discussed (Greg Laden, for example). It’s not surprising, though; it is his blog.

  401. 401
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    I had a back-of-the-neck rat. He would stretch out his full length around the back of my neck, like a rather-too-short-to-fit fur collar. And go to sleep. He was the chillest rat I have ever seen in my life and I still miss him.

  402. 402
    carlie

    Why aren’t they calling on the misogynists to STFU and keep their hating to themselves for the good of the movement? THEY’RE the ones severing ties with anyone who won’t put up with their crap.

    “You’re dividing the movement by driving away perfectly good allies who happen to be women or minorities. Shut up and paste a fake smile on your face already!”

    Can that be enshrined and hauled out on every one of those threads, plz?

  403. 403
    Inaji

    As I said, in the other thread:

    I’m getting damn tired of all the people who show up here to repeatedly scold us over this, that and the other, when they can never be found in the thick of the liars, rape apologists, rape jokers, etc., showing us how it’s done. Go forth and change their minds! Go forth and bring them to reason! Who in the blankety blank is stopping them?

  404. 404
    Sili

    Far too often the examples of misogyny on Not Always Right/Working make me wanna scream.

    But this one is a rather amusing idea on how to accommodate stupid customers:

    http://notalwaysright.com/murrays-law/22083

  405. 405
    RichardAustin

    Caine:

    Who in the blankety blank is stopping them?

    … is “Blankety Blank” the name of the Pharyngula commune?

    *runs away*

  406. 406
    Inaji

    I have no patience with or tolerance for the attitude of “oh, you’re ruining our community! You’re killing the movement!” anymore.

    Yes, we’re ripping the house down. We’re building a bigger, better house.

  407. 407
    Inaji

    Richard:

    … is “Blankety Blank” the name of the Pharyngula commune?

    Why not? Welcome to Fuckety Fuck! :D

  408. 408
    Pteryxx

    …Fuckety Fuck Island. I like it!

  409. 409
    carlie

    I AM IN AN ARGUIN’ MOOD.

    In addition to the twitter twits and the smug thread, I just pounced on one of those freakin’ “sponsored tweets” from some dumbass company saying to substitute avocado for butter in baking to make it healthier. Fuck. Eat avocados if you want. Eat cookies if you want. DON’T PUT AVOCADOS IN COOKIES TO MAKE THEM “HEALTHY”. GOD.

    Um, maybe I need another cup of tea. Decaf.

  410. 410
    Lynna, OM

    I am really jealous of people who have a rat to sit on the top of their head while they drink tea.

  411. 411
    Sili

    Far too often the examples of misogyny on Not Always Right/Working make me wanna scream.

    But this one is a rather amusing idea on how to accommodate stupid customers:

    http://notalwaysrightDOTcom/murrays-law/22083

  412. 412
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Yes, we’re ripping the house down. We’re building a bigger, better house.

    Wait! We cannot break bread with you. You have taken the community which is rightfully ours. . . My people have pain and degradation; your people have fap sticks. The gods of my tribe have spoken. They have said: DO NOT TRUST THE MRAs. Especially Chunderfood. For all these reasons I have decided to scalp you and burn your Hoggletorium to the ground.

  413. 413
    Paul

    In addition to the twitter twits and the smug thread, I just pounced on one of those freakin’ “sponsored tweets” from some dumbass company saying to substitute avocado for butter in baking to make it healthier. Fuck. Eat avocados if you want. Eat cookies if you want. DON’T PUT AVOCADOS IN COOKIES TO MAKE THEM “HEALTHY”. GOD.

    Seriously, it’s madness. Everyone knows you use apple sauce, instead.

  414. 414
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Respectfully, no. She’s a very common type that I wish more people recognized and called out sooner. She’s a liar and she’s perfected the art of posing as a delicate flower as camouflage when she’s called on it. Sadly, the persona works, which is why she gets away with such brazen bullshit.

    Typically shitty writing on my part. I was referring to the thread itself in which we managed to metathread the thread while also simultaneously meta-ing another thread and discussing another thread, and some background emails, that we were not discussing.

    Yes, we’re ripping the house down. We’re building a bigger, better house.

    And this one won’t have all sorts of sick shit hidden in the closets.

  415. 415
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Carlie,
    But… aren’t avocados full of fat? It doesn’t seem to me that you’re doing yourself any favors by subbing one high fat ingredient for another.

    Besides, I do not want to show up somewhere with avocado chocolate cake or some shit like that. Blech.

  416. 416
    Cipher

    I was at a restaurant with my family and my friend texted me that he had a surprise for me – I immediately started stimming like crazy and became unable to eat. Most of my food is in my fridge now, and I’m still rocking and twitching XD To be fair, though, I wasn’t very hungry to start out with, since I woke up queasy and it’s been sort of downhill from there.

  417. 417
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    But… aren’t avocados full of fat? It doesn’t seem to me that you’re doing yourself any favors by subbing one high fat ingredient for another.

    1. Avocados in cookies is a horrible idea.

    2. But, not all fat is created equal. Butter is full of saturated fat (bad for ppl like me with heart disease). Avocado is full of good-for-me fat.

    The solution, however, is not to put veggie-fruit in cookies. The solution is to use butter and make cookies an occasional sometimes food (that is, if you have to give a shit. If you don’t, then eat the damned cookies!).

  418. 418
    Doug Hudson

    Oooh, applesauce. I’ve made applesauce chocolate muffins before, unbelievably moist and yummy. And doesn’t taste like apples, oddly.

  419. 419
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Jesus, that lilandra is a thick one.

  420. 420
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Josh,
    Oh I give a shit. I hate food substitutions! (We all know this.)

  421. 421
    Sili

    Incidentally, can someone explain to me why comment numbers aren’t searchable anymore?

  422. 422
    Sili

    Jesus, that lilandra is a thick one.

    Bully!

    Go stand in the corner!

  423. 423
    Inaji

    Beatrice:

    Jesus, that lilandra is a thick one.

    That doesn’t even begin to describe her. This is just a repeat performance. TF, TF, TF! He’s my friend! He’s nice, really, really! My husband could have got through to him, it’s the fault of all you icky people who cuss that he did what he did! Bulliez! You’re all icky Bulliez!

    Ugh. I am sick half to death of her derailing threads in the name of her blessed TF and I’m not half happy with PZ for trying to hand the thread over to her and her dishonest tactics. Now she’s going off on TF being bullied comic book style.

  424. 424
    The Mellow Monkey

    On the topic of avocados, they’re a great vegan source of pantothenic acid. I know I for one have a hard time getting enough of that without a supplement. I have mashed them up and used them as a sort of butter replacement, but that’s been in savory dishes. I just can’t fathom putting them in cookies. Blech.

  425. 425
    carlie

    I have done applesauce in baked goods, but as a replacement for eggs when I don’t have them (rather than for butter). Also to make it more moist.

  426. 426
    Cipher

    I was about to come over here and stomp around a little bit about lilandra and her lilunbearableness, but it looks like everyone else got to it first.
    *stomps around*

  427. 427
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Bully!

    Go stand in the corner!

    Make me.

  428. 428
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    I can’t believe I’m the only one who thinks this is an issue in Ernest W. Adams’ post.

    Also, his cluelessness about the dangers of removing anonymity in online fora is fucking enraging. It’s not like this hasn’t been an issue in the gaming community itself in the last few years.

    ****

    Josh:

    She’s a very common type that I wish more people recognized and called out sooner. She’s a liar and she’s perfected the art of posing as a delicate flower as camouflage when she’s called on it. Sadly, the persona works, which is why she gets away with such brazen bullshit.

    Precisely.

    Does anyone else remember that type from high school, who’d get all huffy if someone “cussed,” and the conversation would derail into consoling her? Or she’d say something assaholic, be called on it, and start up the waterworks? “But that’s not what I meeeaannnnt!! *sob!*” Rinse, lather, repeat.

    Also, due to a host of sexist social infrastructure, her pose is particularly effective for women who want to get away with being nasty pieces of work without being recognized for it.

    Especially if the woman in question is fuckable by patriarchal standards, because then the d00dz she’s defending will become her knights in shining armor against whoever made poor ickle Buttercup cwy.

  429. 429
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    but it looks like everyone else got to it first.
    *stomps around*

    Sorry. Hands Cipher a guacamole cookie.

  430. 430
    Inaji

    Lilandra leans a great deal on being Missus Aron Ra!!!1! (Thanks, Daisy.) She seems to think it means she can do no wrong and is the epitome of reason.

  431. 431
    Owen

    Damn right on the smug thread. Kudos to all of you who’ve kept up the pressure. Also, PZ can start a new thread now. I know it’s early, but Sili already won it at #410.

  432. 432
    Sili

    Lilandra leans a great deal on being Missus Aron Ra!!!1! (Thanks, Daisy.) She seems to think it means she can do no wrong and is the epitome of reason.

    Apparently a hoax, but illustrative of the mindset.

  433. 433
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    @382:

    May I have tea without a rat on my head? It can sit in the saucer.

    Suddenly I have this image of UFOs piloted by rats.

  434. 434
    Cipher

    She’s a very common type that I wish more people recognized and called out sooner. She’s a liar and she’s perfected the art of posing as a delicate flower as camouflage when she’s called on it. Sadly, the persona works, which is why she gets away with such brazen bullshit.

    *cough*bluharmony*cough*

  435. 435
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    A while back some of my friends were passing around a recipe for “raw” (eyeroll) chocolate pudding using, among other things, avocado and cocoa powder. Several of them swore it was delicious. I haven’t tried it.

    I know in some cultures avocado is eaten like a fruit instead of like a savory vegetable, right?

  436. 436
    Cipher

    Sorry. Hands Cipher a guacamole cookie.

    Aw but no ew

  437. 437
    Doug Hudson

    Gaucamole cookie sounds crazy enough to work. Strange, wonderful things can happen when you mix unusual ingredients.

    Strange and terrible things can also happen…

  438. 438
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    lilandra is exactly what’s wrong with eductaed middle-class people, especially school teachers (yes, I’m an educated middle-class teacher, I know about them)

  439. 439
    Pteryxx

    Ms Daisy Cutter: sorry but the anonymity fail was all I could handle there. I tend to agree with you though, and I’m glad you brought it up because I didn’t have the spoons left.

  440. 440
    Cipher

    Spoons! Heh… I forgot to monitor my spoons. Common for me lately.
    Stupid spoons.

  441. 441
    One Thousand Needles, lumper-splitter

    Two big avocado cookies flanking a frozen, blended banana makes for an excellent vegan ice cream sandwich. Especially if the banana is just starting to get that brown, mushy, stick-sweet consistency.

    NOM

  442. 442
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Caine:

    I just can’t fathom putting them in cookies. Blech.

    Neither can I. It seems so out of place.
    I’ve only just come around to liking avocados, and even then I only like them in small amounts (on a salad, a few slivers on a sandwich). I used to not like them, but in recent years, I’ve made an effort to try foods I previously disliked, to see if maybe I like them now (still don’t like mushrooms or tomatoes, but I like red onions and avocado now).
    One night at my last job, I was tremendously bored, so I decided to stuff some olives. I took salt, pepper, hot sauce, lime juice, avocado, and blue cheese crumbles and mashed them together. I put that mix inside a ziplock bag and cut off the end, depitted some olives (half a jar full-restaurant size, not store bought size) and squirted the stuff inside.
    Funny thing, I hate olives, so I didn’t try them (more than a few servers did and they *loved* the stuffed olives). I did however, put the mixture atop grilled salmon and it was delicious.

  443. 443
    thunk: turmite city

    Oh god. I can’t keep up with one thread, let alone two.

    Stupid attention span.

  444. 444
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Audley:

    Thank you all for giving me the space to learn and the education to smack down antichoice arguments. Two years ago I would have not been able to defend abortion access without descending into *flailing rage filled incoherence*. The dumbass I’m arguing with now has resorted to the “God’s love” argument, so we all know that she’s lost.

    And now you’re passing on your knowledge to newbies like myself.

  445. 445
    thunk: turmite city

    I think I need to take a break. Thread following envy.

  446. 446
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Richard @394:

    +1 for the win!

  447. 447
    CT Chimako.27

    Caine, Uppity, Annoying and Proud of It
    26 July 2012 at 2:48 pm
    CT:

    I’m touchy.

    Be as touchy as you like. I’m a haffer too.

    I didn’t want to derail any more over there but I have to respond that I am not a haffer but my mother(aunts uncles) and grandmother were. I’m touchy for them. It’s not really about me. And the ‘half breed’ comments to me are from racists too stupid to live. Literally, most of them hide out in their mother’s houses so they don’t have to expose their precious selves to any PoC.

  448. 448
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    kristinc:

    I had a back-of-the-neck rat. He would stretch out his full length around the back of my neck, like a rather-too-short-to-fit fur collar. And go to sleep. He was the chillest rat I have ever seen in my life and I still miss him.

    I swear ya’ll are going to make me get a rat (not really as 3 dogs and 4 cats is enough for one 3 bedroom 1 bath home).
    I never had an aversion to rats (I guess because I had gerbils as a child, I viewed them as similarly cute), but never *wanted* one. All this talk about rats and all the cute pics and the fact that they’re cuddly and smart andI’msototallyjealousofCaine (wellnotthepartwithhaving5000rats) has made me want one.

  449. 449
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Pteryxx:

    …Fuckety Fuck Island. I like it!

    FFI is kinda cool.
    Perhaps we can make a TZT island where all the mean nasty people go live harmoniously together (yeah, right). It could be * FFS!* .

  450. 450
    carlie

    Paging Walton – (or any other Brit) How do you address the Leader of the Opposition in Parliament? I know for darned sure it’s not “Mr. Leader”, but what is the proper title?

  451. 451
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    I’m starting to wonder if Thunderf00t’s invitation here (and subsequent firing) are actually of benefit to the atheist/skeptic movement. The shitfest that’s been going on in the community over the last year or so has gotten kicked up to another level with his sexism and whining. Sure there are more than a few of his supporters defending his actions, but with the addition of *his* audience, surely there are more progressives that have become aware of FtB, or who disagree with Tf00t and are speaking out about it. More voices are speaking up. More and more people are refusing to stay silent and Thunderf00t may have inadvertently created a situation that’s a great primer for critical thinking, education on sexism & misogyny, and a host of ‘what not to do’s’ when arguing.
    Or I could be completely wrong.

  452. 452
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Doug (and any other ‘uses applesauce in baked goods’ ppl):

    And doesn’t taste like apples, oddly.

    I don’t bake often, but after seeing this recommendation a few times, I’ve worried that I’m going to taste apples in my brownies or cake. That turns out to not be the case?

  453. 453
    birgerjohansson

    A few research links, mostly about medicine & health:
    .
    New drug could help maintain long-term weight loss http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-07-drug-long-term-weight-loss.html
    .
    New research confirms efficacy of transcranial magnetic stimulation for depression http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-07-efficacy-transcranial-magnetic-depression.html
    .
    Telephone therapy technique brings more Iraq and Afghanistan veterans into mental health treatment http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-07-therapy-technique-iraq-afghanistan-veterans.html
    .
    Lower vitamin D could increase risk of dying, especially for frail, older adults http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-07-vitamin-d-dying-frail-older.html
    — — — — — — —
    NB! (Why religion scam works:) Repetitious, time-intensive magical rituals considered more effective, study shows http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-07-repetitious-time-intensive-magical-rituals-effective.html

  454. 454
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Doug:

    Gaucamole cookie sounds crazy enough to work. Strange, wonderful things can happen when you mix unusual ingredients.

    Strange and terrible things can also happen…

    True.
    Contestants in Cupcake Wars (Food Network reality show) have had to use some reaaaaaaaaaaaaally interesting ingredients.

  455. 455
    Inaji

    CT:

    And the ‘half breed’ comments to me are from racists too stupid to live. Literally, most of them hide out in their mother’s houses so they don’t have to expose their precious selves to any PoC.

    They are that stupid. If breathing wasn’t an involuntary function, they’d all drop dead. I’m feeling touchy myself, because Josh made a reference to scalping people upthread in response to a comment of mine. I know it wasn’t deliberate and I don’t mean to pile on Josh (you know I loves you!), but some days…yeah.

    I think what bothers me most is that a lot of people seem to think all the Indians are already dead. The cowboyz killed ‘em all, right? :eyeroll:

  456. 456
    thunk: turmite city

    Fuckety Fuck Island.

    In favor here.

    Now all we need is a flag.

  457. 457
    Inaji

    Tony:

    It could be * FFS!* .

    I’m in love with the idea of a community being called For Fuck’s Sake!

  458. 458
    Pteryxx

    what’ll the S be? Fuckety-Fuck Society?

  459. 459
    carlie

    Tony – I can taste the applesauce when it’s in pancakes; not when it’s in larger items like cakes. It just kind of disappears, the way grated zucchini does.

  460. 460
    Paul

    I don’t bake often, but after seeing this recommendation a few times, I’ve worried that I’m going to taste apples in my brownies or cake. That turns out to not be the case?

    In my experience, you totally can’t taste the difference.

    Of course, my wife is fond of making brownies using beets as filler, and I would never have guessed there was a root vegetable inserted if I hadn’t been told. They’re quite delicious. So take whatever I say about food with a grain of salt (it enhances the flavor).

  461. 461
    CT Chimako.27

    The cowboyz killed ‘em all, right? :eyeroll:

    gah, yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I’ve only been in the middle class society for about 7 years and damn if these people aren’t the most fucking insulated asshats sometimes. Even my white trash peeps know there’s fucking indians still but if I mention around these morons they are all “what? wait, I thought they were only in [insert whatever midwestern state here that they think "the reservation" is in]“. Southern middle class white culture, almost wish I hadn’t “made it”, whatthefuckever “it” is.

  462. 462
    Part-Time Insomniac

    Caine,

    I think what bothers me most is that a lot of people seem to think all the Indians are already dead. The cowboyz killed ‘em all, right? :eyeroll:

    You just KNOW some people wish that was the truth.

    —————————————–

    Fuckety Fuck Island.

    In favor here.

    Now all we need is a flag.

    How about a raised finger on a plain blue background?

  463. 463
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Caine. . yikes, I’m sorry! I thought the context of that movie dialogue I altered (Wednesday Addams calling bullshit on the nice happy White pilgrims befriending Indians) signalled that I was punching up, but I’m sorry to have tread in the wrong spot:((

  464. 464
    The Mellow Monkey

    Caine:

    I think what bothers me most is that a lot of people seem to think all the Indians are already dead. The cowboyz killed ‘em all, right? :eyeroll:

    One of my biggest issues, too. There is this prevalent idea that Native Americans are like some kind of fantasy character from the past and no longer exist: that having a family legend about a great-great-grandmother who may have been Cherokee erases white privilege and gives a person the right to speak for all Indians; that cultural appropriation and racial stereotypes–essentially “red face”–are a way to “honor” Native people, simply because they acknowledge that they exist.

    There’s some assbackwards ignorance about race in general and what it means to be Native in specific there, but a hell of a lot of it starts with the belief that Natives aren’t modern, living, real people.

  465. 465
    Inaji

    CT:

    Southern middle class white culture, almost wish I hadn’t “made it”, whatthefuckever “it” is.

    Yeah, I know. Lots of times, I’d rather be on the rez.

  466. 466
    RichardAustin

    … mmm…

    My favorite part about getting nachos is when you get to the bottom of the pile and there’s this mishmash of chips and cheese and toppings and the chips have all denatured so you need a fork to scoop up the gunk and it’s oooh so delicious…

  467. 467
    mouthyb, Vagina McTits

    Richard: Oh yes, the goop. The goop I will stick my fingers in, if not stopped, and suck them clean again. *eyes roll up in head*

    On the subject of avocados: the local Vietnamese places serve an avocado shake which is OMG amazing. They tend to treat it like a dessert item.

  468. 468
    Inaji

    Josh:

    Caine. . yikes, I’m sorry!

    No worries, Josh. I didn’t get the reference at all. Probably would have helped if I did.

    Caerie:

    and gives a person the right to speak for all Indians; that cultural appropriation and racial stereotypes–essentially “red face”–are a way to “honor” Native people, simply because they acknowledge that they exist.

    Oh, don’t get me started on wannabe twinks. *spits* I absolutely loathe them and people who yak about “Indians”. We aren’t Indians. Each one of us is a member of a particular tribe, a nation. I’m half Oglala Lakota (not that you’d know by looking), I’m not half generic Indian. A friend of mine is Turtle Mountain Ojibway, not generic Indian.

    Christ, I had better shut up. I’ll go on forever.

  469. 469
    carlie

    Warning: I have a tendency to be the most sentimental glurgy person in the universe. Therefore, given all of the crap of the last few threads, I’ll just leave this here for everybody.

  470. 470
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Pteryxx: I missed your anonfail. Shit, I’m sorry that happened.

    Caerie:

    There is this prevalent idea that Native Americans are like some kind of fantasy character from the past and no longer exist

    The Roma get that kind of thing even worse. “Gypsies? Aren’t they this mystical race, like fairies?”

  471. 471
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Caerie:
    I’ve been wondering how to pronounce your ‘nym…

  472. 472
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Caine, it’s actually a quite funny fuck you to the pilgrim myth. Context: Wednesday Addams is at summer camp and is cast as an Indian Princess in the Thanksgiving play. She’s supposed to suck up to the lily white blonde playing Goody McPilgrimPants but she doesn’t. Plays with stereotypes, but for my money it’s on target:

  473. 473
    Sili

    Oh, don’t get me started on wannabe twinks

    What definition of “twink” are you using? Or is the “twink” part separate from the the “wannabe”?

  474. 474
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Just saw this video Thank you for being a SUPERfriend!

    I’m in stitches laughing and crying right now.

  475. 475
    Inaji

    Esme’s Team seems to be convinced that Sam is a female, because he looks like Esme. They are relentless about trying to nurse off of him.

  476. 476
    mouthyb, Vagina McTits

    CT: My family (well, my mother’s family) is upper middle class, and my father’s family are farmers and work on oil rigs or chemical factories. I’ve personally been homeless not a few times and the most I’ve ever made a year is $16k.

    Sometimes, when I do talk to my relatives (or to other middle class white people because I’m educated enough to ‘pass’), it’s like being slapped. Things find their way into the conversation, like assumptions about poor people, or things about Obama, or other sorts of ‘they’re not trying hard enough/they’re inferior’ things wander into conversation and *poof* I’m an alien again, even though they think they’re talking to someone who agrees with them because, duh, that’s the way things *really* are.

    So I empathize.

  477. 477
    carlie

    Tony – reminds me of Mermaid Man and Barnacle Boy from Spongebob. :)

  478. 478
    leighshryock

    The ‘A re-poll’ thread brought something to mind that I find an interesting question, but would ultimately be off-topic.

    What are the moral considerations of using an Anencephalic infant as an organ source? Admittedly, most are still-born and not viable enough for organ harvesting, so it’s a bit of a corner case, but the thought does arise.

  479. 479
    The Mellow Monkey

    Daisy:

    The Roma get that kind of thing even worse. “Gypsies? Aren’t they this mystical race, like fairies?”

    Oh fuck. You just reminded me of the stupidest argument I ever had. A Wiccan was insisting that people who call themselves Roma are just posers, trying to take on some sort of fantasy character identity and that it only had as much validity as someone saying they’re Otherkin.

    As I was explaining their history, the Holocaust, and exactly how stupid she was I referenced the fact that she calls herself a witch and then she went off on a rant about how her people were martyred in the Burning Times. :facepalm: Wiccan suffering was real. The Roma were just made up.

    The fact that it was in person instead of online gave a special little “holy shit these trolls are real people” thrill.

    Tony, Kay-ree. I was thinking I might need to phase into something else, though, because I don’t want to confuse people with all the other C nyms.

  480. 480
    PatrickG

    I was told this was the Spanking Parlor by Caine, is that correct?

  481. 481
    Inaji

    Sili:

    What definition of “twink” are you using?

    Not the one you’re using. This is NDN specific and shortspeak for ‘twinkie’.

    You might be a twinkie if…

  482. 482
    Paul

    What are the moral considerations of using an Anencephalic infant as an organ source?

    No different than using an adult who didn’t sign up to become an organ donor? How do you feel about that?

  483. 483
    Paul

    I was told this was the Spanking Parlor by Caine, is that correct?

    Spanking Parlor is a bit of a running joke, but get comfortable enough with people here in the lounge and you never know what will happen.

  484. 484
    Inaji

    I was told this was the Spanking Parlor by Caine, is that correct?

    Hi Patrick, Welcome in. This is our lounge. Madame Patricia runs the Spanking Parlour and you must be very, very good* to be allowed in for even a light spanking.

    *For a given quality of good, natch. ;D

  485. 485
    Kevin, Youhao Huo Mao

    @Josh:

    Wait.

    Pocahontas wasn’t a Chippewa… She was a Pamunkey. She was with John Smith in Jamestown, not the Pilgrims.

  486. 486
    PatrickG

    Sigh, I knew it was too good to be true. Still, good to verify the claim. And hi all! Been lurking here for some time, only recently overcame my reticence re: commenting.

  487. 487
    Inaji

    leighshyrock:

    What are the moral considerations of using an Anencephalic infant as an organ source?

    The infant’s parents?

  488. 488
    Sili

    Warning: I have a tendency to be the most sentimental glurgy person in the universe. Therefore, given all of the crap of the last few threads, I’ll just leave this here for everybody.

    Dam you. Dam you to heck.

  489. 489
    leighshryock

    @Caine:

    We’ll assume that the infant’s parents consented.

    @Paul:

    It’s a bit more nuanced than that.

  490. 490
    RichardAustin

    Caerie:

    As I was explaining their history, the Holocaust, and exactly how stupid she was I referenced the fact that she calls herself a witch and then she went off on a rant about how her people were martyred in the Burning Times. :facepalm: Wiccan suffering was real. The Roma were just made up.

    The fact that it was in person instead of online gave a special little “holy shit these trolls are real people” thrill.

    Semi-related, but you don’t know how many times I’ve gotten the deer-in-the-headlights look from people when I mention that sexual “deviance” was targeted by the Holocaust as well. I actually had one guy pull the statement (in almost these words), “Well, you gays don’t know what real suffering is like. Your kind weren’t rounded up by the Nazis!”

  491. 491
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Patrick:
    Welcome. If Caine can’t fit you into an FFI spank session (she has a few rats to care for at the moment) I’m sure Louis can accomodate you.

  492. 492
    Inaji

    godsdamn motherfucking stupid idiotic mouthbreathing self-styled fucking intellectual know it all pieces of slime with their fucking heads crammed up their poxy asses, aaaaauuuughhh.

    Sorry, needed to spit something out. Carry on.

  493. 493
    thunk: turmite city

    Part-Time Insomniac:

    As for flags, I was thinking of the “eight-armed cuttlefish” in blue against a field of light tan. Don’t know why.

  494. 494
    Paul

    It’s a bit more nuanced than that.

    Could you enlighten me as to how? I’m not being snarky.

    Would adding the nuance that now we’re talking about someone born with congenital insensitivity to pain who had suffered irreversable brain damage, resulting in loss of conscious function but not cessation of vital bodily functions? Would that be more comparable to what you’re getting at?

    I don’t see why you consider Anencephaly to present a special dilemma / need for consideration.

  495. 495
    Pteryxx

    thanks MsDC, not MY anonfail so much as an ally who really cares, wants to change the culture, but still can’t figure out why any honest person might have a problem posting their real name online everywhere. Sheesh. Not to mention the white-knighting macho fail. It’s just too disgusting… I left him links, maybe if the stars are right he’ll listen and get a clue. No sign of that so far though. Damn… I used to run with the biggest gay guild in my MMO, we don’t need well-meaning privileged dudes mass-outing by fiat. /rant

  496. 496
    thunk: turmite city

    As for flags, I was thinking of the “eight-armed cuttlefish” in blue against a field of light tan. Don’t know why.

    Really, anything simple, recognizable, and that represents Pharyngula would be good.

  497. 497
    Inaji

    Tony:

    If Caine can’t fit you into an FFI spank session (she has a few rats to care for at the moment) I’m sure Louis can accomodate you.

    No no no no no. The Spanking Parlour is the purview of Madame Patricia. Nerd runs the Saloon. The primary queue is for Ghey sex with Brownian. This line is now miles long and Brownian is on official break. There is also a queue for Louis sex, which is also quite long.

    Many of us are fake married to Josh, Official SpokesGay, including Louis. Janine is the Elder Fake Wife. I myself am a fake wife.

    I run the plague of rats around here.

    Everyone can help themselves to a drink at the bloody bar right now. I’m busy trying not to pound my head into a wall.

    ING! Don’t leave forever. Please. ♥

  498. 498
    Sili

    NPH is one sexy mothercuddler.

  499. 499
    The Mellow Monkey

    Richard:

    Semi-related, but you don’t know how many times I’ve gotten the deer-in-the-headlights look from people when I mention that sexual “deviance” was targeted by the Holocaust as well. I actually had one guy pull the statement (in almost these words), “Well, you gays don’t know what real suffering is like. Your kind weren’t rounded up by the Nazis!”

    There’s something chilling about this sort of ignorance. I sometimes have a hard time believing that it is innocent ignorance and it isn’t actually a more narrowly targeted form of Holocaust denial.

  500. 500
    Inaji

    Thunk:

    blue against a field of light tan.

    Blecch. Skulltopus in red on a field of black.

    No, I’m not feeling nice.

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