Poor [dominant group]. All they want is [good times]. Everybody knows that [dominant group] are the last people it’s considered acceptable to be bigoted against. :c
I also hear that the poor Christians are one of the great oppressed majorities in the U.S. They used to enjoy total dominance, but whiny nonbelievers and outrageous court decisions have taken away their god-given right to do whatever they want and enjoy government endorsement of their beliefs. (The Catholics, in particular, are suffering horribly!) At least they still have “In God We Trust” on the money. Yay for God and Mammon together!
I just spotted a classic free-range ‘what about teh menz’ over at Thunderf00t’s trainwreck.
Your punctuation is wrong. It’s:
“what about teh menz!!!!!11!!!!?”
Seabisquicksays
I am a member of a privileged class. I’m white, male, middle-aged, college-educated, able-bodied with no chronic illness, living in a metropolitan area in the United States, in the upper 20% or so for household income.
I don’t really know how a female/minority/elderly/disabled/etc feels, in the sense that I can experience the thoughts, emotions and process information in the same way. All I can do is listen and try to keep my mouth shut. When they say something that seems incomprehensible and ridiculous to me, that triggers the “oh give me a break, stop whining” reflex, it’s time to stop. take a breath. then I say, OK, I accept that. you shouldn’t have to feel that way. I don’t completely understand it right now, but I’m trying to walk in your shoes here. I never had to even think about this before.
Making this a continual practice, working from the assumption that if someone has a complaint, there is some reason for it, something driving them to feel this way and speak on it, gives me some perspective. Mostly it keeps me from saying stupid things to people when I don’t have much of an idea of what they are going through.
But also, it gives some space to stop and think about the situation. I don’t necessarily feel the need to accept all complaints as valid. But I feel the need to consider the complaint seriously first, knowing that, as a member of a privileged class, I will have a cognitive tendency to dismiss complaints because it’s difficult to sympathize.
I’m an MRA, in a sense. I can’t help it. I will have a unconscious tendency to favor those with whom I feel most associated. Anyone who says they don’t is fooling themselves. I’m also biased toward Americans, white people, hard-cider drinkers, etc…
The only defense I have is that I know I’m biased. So before I dismiss how someone else feels, perhaps how I feel might actually be the invalid position.
It’s nice to see Tatsuya on this side of the fence. Early on his blog posts had a rather foul stench of Nice Guy to them, so obviously he’s wised up some.
saykesays
Am I the only person who doesn’t like how Sinfest continuously seems to equate sex work–or even consensual, informed sex positivity, especially in women–with misogyny?
Gnumann, quisling of the MRA nationsays
Am I the only person who doesn’t like how Sinfest continuously seems to equate sex work–or even consensual, informed sex positivity, especially in women–with misogyny?
I’m only a semi-regular reader, but I haven’t really seen the latter. Could you point to some examples please
As for sex-work: Opinions vary, but most find sex work in practise(if not in theory) sketchy at least.
How many trafficking victims are needed before claiming misogyny?
Suidosays
@Seabisquick #8
I’m in the same boat as you in terms of most of those characteristics, but identifying with labels like MRA is not the right attitude. MRA, like other labels, comes with a lot of baggage, and saying you’re an MRA gives tacit support to that ideology. MRAs have a (usually very well deserved) reputation for being reactionary arsehats who don’t understand feminism or equality. Do you really want to be associated with that?
Just because I want to see courts be more even-handed to both parents during divorce settlements* doesn’t mean I’m an MRA, just like my views on drug legalization doesn’t make me a libertarian.
*I appreciate the historic, social and legal complexity of the issue, and know of cases that were handled appallingly and others that were handled very well. Another issue, another day.
derektanksays
@10
I don’t think he’s really addressed sex work at all, but I have been a bit disappointed that he seems to associate BDSM with misogyny and a lack of empathy for other human beings. It’s not one of my kinks but it seems like a really unfair characterization of the broader BDSM community.
@Suido – I don’t wear the “MRA” label with any sort of pride, I don’t think of myself as an active advocate for men’s rights. It’s more of an admission that despite whatever I consciously try to do, I will have a bias toward my gender, and would tend to support the male privilege point of view as a “natural” reaction. My gut reaction is jerkiness, and only after a pause to gain a rational point of view do I overcome it. I’ve had to learn to disregard that inner MRA to be able to have compassion for others’ POV.
unclefrogysays
derektank.
I looked at those before and to me it looks like what he talking about is porn and the porn business and not sex per say.
the porn business is not about sex it is about money for money. That they thrive on the impersonalization of sex of sex as object and exploitation submition. and that is all mixed up with love and sex. he is kind of subversive in a sweet way.
uncle frogy
Suidosays
@Seabisquick #14
I understand what you mean, however I would still not advise labeling yourself as such, even in context – tharr be quote miners in them tharr internets.
On the other hand, associating yourself with organisations like this one shows that you care about men’s issues in a positive way.
Identifying real issues that are real problems for men in western society and targeting those issues can be done without being reactionary and blaming everything on women/foreigners/etc.
saykesays
@11 & 15
Some people enjoy being watched while engaged in sexual acts, and enjoy getting paid for the time as well. Some people enjoy having sex with a variety of people, and enjoy getting paid by those people. To say that all sex workers are exploited, or trafficked, is to remove agency from those who ARE working in their chosen field, and living happy and healthy lives. Not all seamstresses work in sweatshops.
In a way, I think blanket slut shaming of the entire industry actually harms effort to stop the exploitation of vulnerable people within it because it removes the option of creating safe environments WITHIN the sex industry. Issues like this take nuance. And actually listening to sex workers.
derektanksays
@15
Oh, I don’t dislike Tat. I love Sinfest dearly, I just feel like his social commentary is a bit lacking in subtlety and nuance a lot of the time.
And with regards to the porn industry, yeah, porn is artificial, kabuki sex, but I don’t think it’s really all that socially or psychically detrimental. Your mileage may vary of course.
Gnumann, quisling of the MRA nationsays
@sayke: So, no examples of sex negativity? Just a blanket boilerplate prostitution non-defence?
Newsflash: It wasn’t a secret that we are in disagreement there. It was the other part where there is some grounds for discussion. You got any examples? (Porn-negativity doesn’t count btw)
I just spotted a classic free-range ‘what about teh menz’ over at Thunderf00t’s trainwreck.
Yes, saw this one in my rss feed this morning. Loved it and reposted it on Twitter :)
I thought this one was brilliant. I can think of at least two interpretations, and both are biting satire.
Poor [dominant group]. All they want is [good times]. Everybody knows that [dominant group] are the last people it’s considered acceptable to be bigoted against. :c
I also hear that the poor Christians are one of the great oppressed majorities in the U.S. They used to enjoy total dominance, but whiny nonbelievers and outrageous court decisions have taken away their god-given right to do whatever they want and enjoy government endorsement of their beliefs. (The Catholics, in particular, are suffering horribly!) At least they still have “In God We Trust” on the money. Yay for God and Mammon together!
Then there is this:
http://www.docrat.com.au/default.asp?id=strip&thisItem=1569
–W. H. Heydt
Your punctuation is wrong. It’s:
“what about teh menz!!!!!11!!!!?”
I am a member of a privileged class. I’m white, male, middle-aged, college-educated, able-bodied with no chronic illness, living in a metropolitan area in the United States, in the upper 20% or so for household income.
I don’t really know how a female/minority/elderly/disabled/etc feels, in the sense that I can experience the thoughts, emotions and process information in the same way. All I can do is listen and try to keep my mouth shut. When they say something that seems incomprehensible and ridiculous to me, that triggers the “oh give me a break, stop whining” reflex, it’s time to stop. take a breath. then I say, OK, I accept that. you shouldn’t have to feel that way. I don’t completely understand it right now, but I’m trying to walk in your shoes here. I never had to even think about this before.
Making this a continual practice, working from the assumption that if someone has a complaint, there is some reason for it, something driving them to feel this way and speak on it, gives me some perspective. Mostly it keeps me from saying stupid things to people when I don’t have much of an idea of what they are going through.
But also, it gives some space to stop and think about the situation. I don’t necessarily feel the need to accept all complaints as valid. But I feel the need to consider the complaint seriously first, knowing that, as a member of a privileged class, I will have a cognitive tendency to dismiss complaints because it’s difficult to sympathize.
I’m an MRA, in a sense. I can’t help it. I will have a unconscious tendency to favor those with whom I feel most associated. Anyone who says they don’t is fooling themselves. I’m also biased toward Americans, white people, hard-cider drinkers, etc…
The only defense I have is that I know I’m biased. So before I dismiss how someone else feels, perhaps how I feel might actually be the invalid position.
It’s nice to see Tatsuya on this side of the fence. Early on his blog posts had a rather foul stench of Nice Guy to them, so obviously he’s wised up some.
Am I the only person who doesn’t like how Sinfest continuously seems to equate sex work–or even consensual, informed sex positivity, especially in women–with misogyny?
I’m only a semi-regular reader, but I haven’t really seen the latter. Could you point to some examples please
As for sex-work: Opinions vary, but most find sex work in practise(if not in theory) sketchy at least.
How many trafficking victims are needed before claiming misogyny?
@Seabisquick #8
I’m in the same boat as you in terms of most of those characteristics, but identifying with labels like MRA is not the right attitude. MRA, like other labels, comes with a lot of baggage, and saying you’re an MRA gives tacit support to that ideology. MRAs have a (usually very well deserved) reputation for being reactionary arsehats who don’t understand feminism or equality. Do you really want to be associated with that?
Just because I want to see courts be more even-handed to both parents during divorce settlements* doesn’t mean I’m an MRA, just like my views on drug legalization doesn’t make me a libertarian.
*I appreciate the historic, social and legal complexity of the issue, and know of cases that were handled appallingly and others that were handled very well. Another issue, another day.
@10
I don’t think he’s really addressed sex work at all, but I have been a bit disappointed that he seems to associate BDSM with misogyny and a lack of empathy for other human beings. It’s not one of my kinks but it seems like a really unfair characterization of the broader BDSM community.
http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4268
http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4303
@Suido – I don’t wear the “MRA” label with any sort of pride, I don’t think of myself as an active advocate for men’s rights. It’s more of an admission that despite whatever I consciously try to do, I will have a bias toward my gender, and would tend to support the male privilege point of view as a “natural” reaction. My gut reaction is jerkiness, and only after a pause to gain a rational point of view do I overcome it. I’ve had to learn to disregard that inner MRA to be able to have compassion for others’ POV.
derektank.
I looked at those before and to me it looks like what he talking about is porn and the porn business and not sex per say.
the porn business is not about sex it is about money for money. That they thrive on the impersonalization of sex of sex as object and exploitation submition. and that is all mixed up with love and sex. he is kind of subversive in a sweet way.
uncle frogy
@Seabisquick #14
I understand what you mean, however I would still not advise labeling yourself as such, even in context – tharr be quote miners in them tharr internets.
On the other hand, associating yourself with organisations like this one shows that you care about men’s issues in a positive way.
Identifying real issues that are real problems for men in western society and targeting those issues can be done without being reactionary and blaming everything on women/foreigners/etc.
@11 & 15
Some people enjoy being watched while engaged in sexual acts, and enjoy getting paid for the time as well. Some people enjoy having sex with a variety of people, and enjoy getting paid by those people. To say that all sex workers are exploited, or trafficked, is to remove agency from those who ARE working in their chosen field, and living happy and healthy lives. Not all seamstresses work in sweatshops.
In a way, I think blanket slut shaming of the entire industry actually harms effort to stop the exploitation of vulnerable people within it because it removes the option of creating safe environments WITHIN the sex industry. Issues like this take nuance. And actually listening to sex workers.
@15
Oh, I don’t dislike Tat. I love Sinfest dearly, I just feel like his social commentary is a bit lacking in subtlety and nuance a lot of the time.
And with regards to the porn industry, yeah, porn is artificial, kabuki sex, but I don’t think it’s really all that socially or psychically detrimental. Your mileage may vary of course.
@sayke: So, no examples of sex negativity? Just a blanket boilerplate prostitution non-defence?
Newsflash: It wasn’t a secret that we are in disagreement there. It was the other part where there is some grounds for discussion. You got any examples? (Porn-negativity doesn’t count btw)