Guilty, guilty, guilty


The verdict has come down, and Jerry Sandusky has been convicted of 45 out of 48 counts of child abuse. He now faces life in prison at sentencing.

But he was just guilty of a poor career choice! Imagine, if he’d been a Catholic priest instead of a football coach, he’d simply be quietly relocated to a new venue, or paid $20,000 for his silence.


Seriously: I will slap you down hard if you dare to make prison rape jokes here. Don’t try it.

Comments

  1. dragon says

    I heard he faces a minimum of 60 years for the 45 counts. Which means he could be eligible for parole at 129.
    I certainly hope medical science does not improve to a point where he will survive to 129.

    Yeah team! I mean jury.

  2. shoshidge says

    It’s times like this when part of me hopes there is some truth to those stories about prison showers

  3. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    It’s times like this when part of me hopes there is some truth to those stories about prison showers

    You shouldn’t.

  4. Alverant says

    I feel a little sorry for the 3 people of whom he wasn’t convicted of assaulting. You know SOMEONE is going to take those three charges and try to use them to claim he was completely innocent.

  5. says

    shoshidge:

    It’s times like this when part of me hopes there is some truth to those stories about prison showers

    Weren’t you the one whinging about how mean and nasty Pharyngulites are just a thread or two ago? Yet, here you are, hoping a person gets raped.

    Fuck off, you douchecake.

  6. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Oh, I totally hope medical science improves to the point where someone in prison who is nearabouts 30 years older than I (and thus has less time for the science to improve) can easily live to 129.

    Then I hope he gets denied parole and spends another 20 years inside… unless, and I doubt this will happen, but it can …he truly transforms himself. He needs to pay for not one crime or several or 45. He was clearly guilty of many more crimes than can currently be proven in a court of law beyond a reasonable doubt. Some crimes don’t have a victim willing to come forward. Others are past the statute of limitations. Others simply have reasons why juries would be willing to discount testimony (it’s not unknown for a survivor of this kind of abuse to use drugs badly or illegally or to have significant mental illness) – not ignore it, but discount it to a level where it alone cannot prove something beyond a reasonable doubt.

    If the prosecutors could prove 45 counts BaRD, this guy has almost certainly committed hundreds of crimes over 4 or 5 or even 6 decades. Not only that, he was lauded as a good guy while he was doing it. I want him to spend more time suffering ignominy than he spent being heroic good-guy.

    Plus, I would also benefit from the science of life extension – so there.

    Finally – this is a classic case of the necessity for eliminating sexual orientation prejudice. This crap about how being queer is unspeakably evil and anti-family and anti-god and indistinguishable from being a pedophile/hebeophile/ephebophile, this is part of the crap that makes it possible for a child molester to escape accountability. “This guy had a wife – so he couldn’t be sexually interested in boys! I’d know if he was gay/bi/queer ‘cuz he be all Linda Rondstadt and Liza Minnelli! What, you saw him raping a boy? You must be wrong, because I saw him go to church once!”

    Of course, we have to get past the idea that child molesters are strangers and devils as well (“He can’t be a molester, he donated to the Boy Scouts…and we’ve had him over to the house!”), but f*d up stereotypes about queerness become a defense for those that abuse kids of their own gender. “I don’t match the stereotype, so you must be wrong!” is too easy an out, or has been for too many years.

  7. athyco says

    Alverant @4:

    I feel a little sorry for the 3 people of whom he wasn’t convicted of assaulting. You know SOMEONE is going to take those three charges and try to use them to claim he was completely innocent.

    CNN says “no,” I’m happy to say.

    Jurors delivered the verdict around 10 p.m. after deliberating for about 21 hours. There were convictions related to all 10 sexual abuse victims, with the three not-guilty verdicts applying to three different individuals.

  8. Menyambal --- Sambal's sockpuppet says

    “Guilty, guilty, guilty”

    Was that Megaphone Mark Slackmeyer from Doonesbury?

    If so, entirely appropriate.

    I am glad.

  9. Agent Silversmith, Feathered Patella Association says

    Sandusky is an evil piece of shit who never deserves to be free again.

    However, he doesn’t deserve to have his body violated. That hopeful part of you needs educating, shoshidge. Best start now.

  10. ibyea says

    The thing that shocked me the most about this case was when there were students that rioted because they were trying to defend him. That was an eye opener.

  11. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    OMG – the 2nd comment?

    Rape is not a punishment. Rape is a crime. What is wrong with this complete jerkwad really understanding how awful are his crimes? His conscience would then, at that point, punish him quite a bit…and without anyone else needing to add to the immorality and violence of our society.

    Wishing rape on Sandusky is condoning rape. It’s saying that sometimes rape is justified – we’re left to just haggling about how many of the rape victims out there deserved it and for what.

    That kind of douchegabbery aids sexism, aids heterosexism, hurts real victims – including Sandusky if he is/becomes one – and generally contributes to a completely immoral society.

    Get the Freud out of this thread until you have something useful to contribute.

  12. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    PZ @9

    Thank you.

    I hate that it even needs to be said, but I’m glad, given #2, that you said it.

  13. Thy Goddess says

    I always laugh when I hear about prison justice and such. There is no such thing as a prison justice. Only criminals being thugs. Frankly, those kinds of wishes say a lot about an individual.

    The guy will live the rest of his life in a miserable cell. It’s a good enough punishment. No need to torture him any more than that.

  14. says

    Thy Goddess:

    Only criminals being thugs.

    Right. It’s a pity things aren’t actually that black and white. Also, I’m not remotely amused by those who bring up prison rape as some form of justice. I’ve been raped and I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy. I didn’t even wish it for the person who raped me and many others.

  15. Amphiox says

    Those who call for or laud “prison justice” understand neither prison, not justice.

  16. says

    Prison rape isn’t only from prisoners, FYI. The guard on prisoner violence is also a problem. And if you want to get technical, since the prisoners are under the authority and responsibility of the guards, any rape they allow they are complacent for.

  17. anuran says

    There’s an old Jewish blessing “May he live to 120!”
    I wish that on Jerry Sandusky. Decades in prison, realizing others are out there breathing the free air, and it’s his own damned fault he’s rotting behind bars.

  18. whheydt says

    Re; #18 (Cuttlefish) According to _Slate_, the maximum possible is 442 years…and the *minimum* is 60 years.

    Probably the biggest headache for the prison officials will be to keep him alive. His sort of crime is–by repute–very unpopular among the general prison population. I expect he’s going to spend a lot of time in solitary for his own protection, and that is unlikely to do his own health much good.

    Does anyone know what Pennsylvania’s parole laws are like? What is the minimum time as compared to sentence? Do PA authorities have a lot of discretion with regards to parole dates?

    –W. H. Heydt

  19. shoshidge says

    Wow, actually I didn’t mean it as a joke so much as an admission of a certain degree of my own capacity for shadenfruede, particularly when the crimes in question were so revolting.
    No, of course I don’t actually want to see him raped in prison, but I suspect he won’t have an easy time of it anyway.

    The only thing I’m going to apologize for regarding the comment I made was it’s obviousness, it’s kind of a cheap shot and it was bound to be made by someone, and it is now being made in pubs across America where the news is being announced, in much more coarse terms than I used, by men and women, of all political stripes.

    The suggestion that this sentiment somehow legitimizes rape is just insane, it is disgust at this crime, committed against young children that illicits an almost medieval desire for eye for an eye reprisal.
    That was my first reaction when I read the news, hence the comment.
    But your largely fake outrage is noted, and the list of thoughts that must not be thunk,(or expressed), grows here on FreethoughtBlogs, much to my chagrin

  20. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    The only thing I’m going to apologize for regarding the comment I made was it’s obviousness, it’s kind of a cheap shot and it was bound to be made by someone, and it is now being made in pubs across America where the news is being announced, in much more coarse terms than I used, by men and women, of all political stripes.

    You are an extremely gross person. I was cringing with embarrassment for you before I read this, but now I hope like hell you figure out how far your own head is jammed up your ass.

    largely fake outrage

    No, you oblivious cupcake. People are not “faking” being disgusted at you wishing rape on a person.

  21. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    The thing that shocked me the most about this case was when there were students that rioted because they were trying to defend him. That was an eye opener.

    Then may your eyes be perpetually propped open. Get used to it. That’s reality. It’s not those nasty, evil “other” people who hold such barbarous opinions. It’s our friends and neighbors. The sooner you twig to that the better.

  22. samoanbiscuit says

    @22 shoshidge
    How is the outrage fake? Rape is wrong in any place, in any context, for any reason, to any person. Wishing rape on a rapist just condones it.

  23. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    No, of course I don’t actually want to see him raped in prison, but I suspect he won’t have an easy time of it anyway.

    Your lies tell on you.

    The only thing I’m going to apologize for regarding the comment I made was it’s obviousness, it’s kind of a cheap shot and it was bound to be made by someone, and it is now being made in pubs across America where the news is being announced, in much more coarse terms than I used, by men and women, of all political stripes.

    I sincerely wish this were a cocktail party at my house rather than a conversation online. Because I’d dearly love the pleasure of throwing you right the fuck out of my front door onto your sorry ass.

  24. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @shoshidge:

    your largely fake outrage is noted, and the list of thoughts that must not be thunk,(or expressed), grows here on FreethoughtBlogs, much to my chagrin

    I hope you also noted the non-fake outrage, which as far as I could tell was all of it 

    As for not thinking thoughts – you are free to think and express any thought you wish. Are you under the mistaken impression that the right to express something necessarily entails some right to never have that thought/expression criticized?

    And for the record, even if you want to follow the tired and trite thought-police route, this is certainly not an idea that is only now meeting with disapproval from the Horde.

    “I immediately wanted him to be raped in prison, but then realized what I was thinking. I don’t actually believe that rape can ever be justified.”

    That’s expressing the depth of your emotion and schadenfreude.

    It’s times like this when part of me hopes there is some truth to those stories about prison showers

    is expressing the “I immediately wanted him to be raped in prison” part with none of the acknowledgement that rape is, y’know, inherently wrong.

    When we hope for rape, we are stating that we believe rape is justifiable. Tell me how you can possibly get around that.

    I for one am glad that you have expressed the complete thought in your follow up, but don’t blame us for taking you at your word.

  25. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Don’t bother trying to “educate” that piece of shit. He already knows, and he’s an actual asshole. Yeah, really. So don’t waste your time.

  26. Tethys says

    Shoshidge

    You will not be missed here, should you decide to STFU.

    I’m personally hoping a banhammer falls on you for making the joke, and then defending the joke.

    Is it so hard to say, “Sorry, that was wrong.”? Why must you compound your asshattery by claiming the only thing wrong with the joke was its obviousness?

  27. says

    shoshidge:

    The only thing I’m going to apologize for regarding the comment I made was it’s obviousness, it’s kind of a cheap shot and it was bound to be made by someone,

    Oh, it was bound to made by someone, so that makes it perfectly alright, does it? Not only are you a vile, disgusting douchecake, your rationale is incredibly stupid and weak. It would seem you prefer idiocy and being part of the problem.

    The suggestion that this sentiment somehow legitimizes rape is just insane

    No, douchecake. It’s not insane at all. It’s a fact that you and those like you who express such a sentiment do, in fact, condone rape culture.

    But your largely fake outrage is noted

    Oh, my outrage isn’t faked at all. It’s rather obvious you’re attempting to fake intelligence and you’re desperately trying to backpedal now. It’s not working. All the moronic notpologies in the ‘verse won’t help. The only thing which would is if you somehow or another got a clue and realized the depth of your nastiness and gained awareness of how such sentiments do indeed condone rape culture and comes dangerously close to being a rape apologist. Rape is never alright and the second you think along the lines of “well, yeah rape is bad, but in his case…” you are condoning rape.

  28. consciousness razor says

    But your largely fake outrage is noted, and the list of thoughts that must not be thunk,(or expressed), grows here on FreethoughtBlogs, much to my chagrin

    Oh my, shoshidge has a point. What kind of freethinkers are we, if we won’t let him or her express vile shit without criticizing it, here at freethoughtblogs of all places? Actual freethinkers, and that is a real tragedy. Forget that guy who raped a bunch of kids. Gather the trolls, so they can console poor, poor shoshidge.

  29. says

    The suggestion that this sentiment somehow legitimizes rape is just insane, it is disgust at this crime, committed against young children that illicits an almost medieval desire for eye for an eye reprisal.

    Ah yes. How does “I WANT SOMEONE TO BE RAPED!” possibly equate to legitimizing rape?

  30. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Oh, why can’t shoshidge be here in person? Because I really, really need to spit in xe’s face. It’s the very least I can do.

  31. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    *I*, meanwhile, hope it’s clearly but non-violently communicated to him that even thugs and murderers despise the kind of crimes he committed, and that this is on his mind pretty consistently for the rest of his life.

  32. shoshidge says

    Crip Dyke, you have it mostly right.
    When I first heard about the Sandusky crimes, to say nothing of the cover-up attempts, I first thought of what I would do if I caught someone doing that to my own kids, or my wife or sister.

    In that circumstance, I would’ve killed him if I could, with my bare hands or whatever implement I could reach for.

    I am not the type to have violent fantasies, but this is one instance where I can have a visceral reation so strong I end up coming back to my senses five minutes later trying to strangle the air in front of me wondering WTF?

    When I imagine catching someone in the act of raping my loved ones I want to murder them.
    Rape, in other words, is so offensive to me it makes me homicidal.
    If you, or any other of your pals here want to continue with this bizarre assertion that my kneejerk, admittedly unoriginal comment above somehow reflects a pro-rape agenda you will only be discrediting yourselves

  33. says

    Josh:

    Oh, why can’t shoshidge be here in person? Because I really, really need to spit in xe’s face. It’s the very least I can do.

    It’s certainly interesting to see this shit pouring forth from someone who, up until this point, has done little except to tone troll in many a thread, constantly remarking on the nastiness of Pharyngulites in general.

  34. John Morales says

    [meta]

    shoshidge:

    Wow, actually I didn’t mean it as a joke so much as an admission of a certain degree of my own capacity for shadenfruede

    You wish for him to suffer.

    particularly when the crimes in question were so revolting.

    You wish him to suffer the very same crime that’s so revolting it merits wishing him that very crime.

    (Uh-huh)

    The only thing I’m going to apologize for regarding the comment I made was it’s obviousness, it’s kind of a cheap shot and it was bound to be made by someone, and it is now being made in pubs across America where the news is being announced, in much more coarse terms than I used, by men and women, of all political stripes.

    What did you imagine the term ‘rape culture’ refers to?

    The suggestion that this sentiment somehow legitimizes rape is just insane, it is disgust at this crime, committed against young children that illicits [sic] an almost medieval desire for eye for an eye reprisal.

    It’s just this thing, right? Accept it and move on?

    That was my first reaction when I read the news, hence the comment.

    Yes: rape culture.

    (duh)

    But your largely fake outrage is noted, and the list of thoughts that must not be thunk [sic],(or expressed), grows here on FreethoughtBlogs, much to my chagrin

    You think it’s fake outrage, eh?

    (Just like your desire for his rape, to which you’ve just again admitted is fake)

    To be generous, I grant perhaps you are a clueless specimen, rather than anything worse.

  35. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    If you, or any other of your pals here want to continue with this bizarre assertion that my kneejerk, admittedly unoriginal comment above somehow reflects a pro-rape agenda you will only be discrediting yourselves

    “What, so saying you want someone to be raped is pro-rape now? Jeez! That’s insane!”

  36. amblebury says

    LARGELY FAKE? To people who have actually been raped?

    Words fail me.

    How may times have I seen this. People who think and feel in reprehensible ways, assuming everyone else in the world thinks and feels just like them. In secret. Because they’re not brave enough to say it aloud, like Shoshidge here.

    [Place appropriate expletive phrase here.]

    I don’t feel that way, Shoshidge. I never would.

  37. consciousness razor says

    *I*, meanwhile, hope it’s clearly but non-violently communicated to him that even thugs and murderers despise the kind of crimes he committed, and that this is on his mind pretty consistently for the rest of his life.

    What is that supposed to mean? He should feel threatened by them (and presumably not know the threat will never be carried out)? Or should he take their contempt for his actions more seriously than from people who aren’t “thugs and murderers”?

  38. John Morales says

    [meta]

    shoshidge:

    Rape, in other words, is so offensive to me it makes me homicidal.

    So, because it’s so very offensive to you, you didn’t actually joke about it, you just meta-joked because people were bound to do it and you wanted in first?

  39. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    shorter shoshidge:

    I find rape unexpressibly vile, unless it happens to persons I really, really hate. Then I’m for it.

    You are so totally not justifying rape in the same way that the way that the Green River Killer was totally a non-violent, god-fearing man who just really, really hated those women he thought were dirty sluts acting contrary to will of his god. Crossing god was such a horrible, horrible crime it just made him rape-happy and homicidal. I mean, he never raped his wife and might even have killed anyone he caught trying to rape her. It’s just the completely reasonable reaction to an unforgivable crime.

    Now let’s sit down and talk about which crimes against which persons (real or imaginary) are “unforgivable” and thus justify rape and/or murder. I’m sure it will be a productive conversation.

  40. says

    shoshidge:

    I am not the type to have violent fantasies

    I would’ve killed him if I could, with my bare hands or whatever implement I could reach for.

    When I imagine catching someone in the act of raping my loved ones I want to murder them.

    Rape, in other words, is so offensive to me it makes me homicidal.

    If you, or any other of your pals here want to continue with this bizarre assertion that my kneejerk, admittedly unoriginal comment above somehow reflects a pro-rape agenda you will only be discrediting yourselves

    No one needs to discredit you, you’re doing a fine job of it yourself. You not only need to learn to listen, you need to learn the first rule of holes.

    You’ve had more than one rape victim respond to your kneejerk visceral reaction, the one you keep defending and expanding on.

    The man who raped and almost murdered me is a serial rapist and murderer. Not once did I ever express the sentiment of wishing rape on him, neither did any one who cared about me. Neither did any of the other surviving victims. None of them are stupid, vile douchecakes, for which I’m grateful.

    I hope no one you do actually care for is ever raped, shoshidge, because you’re the exact type of person who would make every single thing worse and would make recovery damn near impossible.

  41. shoshidge says

    Josh, if you want to spit on someone for making the Sandusky-shower-prison connection, go for a walk near any public space where folks have had opportunity to hear the news and hose’em down with as much fluid as you can hock up in a broad spray, you will acheive multiple hits

  42. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    What is that supposed to mean? He should feel threatened by them (and presumably not know the threat will never be carried out)? Or should he take their contempt for his actions more seriously than from people who aren’t “thugs and murderers”?

    That he should realize he’s “worse” even compared to “the worst.” I wasn’t getting at threats, no.

  43. says

    shoshidge:

    Josh, if you want to spit on someone for making the Sandusky-shower-prison connection, go for a walk near any public space where folks have had opportunity to hear the news and hose’em down with as much fluid as you can hock up in a broad spray, you will acheive multiple hits

    Stop with the “oh hey, other people are saying it, why are you blaming me!!!1?” crap already. This is about what you said, more than once.

    What the fuck is wrong with you, that you think since others condone rape culture, you should get a free pass for doing the same?

  44. consciousness razor says

    Yeah, Josh, argumentum ad populum, and so forth. You know how it is.

  45. John Morales says

    [meta]

    shoshidge, please get a clue.

    1) Everyone knows what you did and that you’ve trying to justify yourself.

    Your persistent recalcitrance towards acceptance is futile.

    2) Look at the red letters; PZ takes the issue dead seriously.

    3) So do commenters here.

  46. says

    I knew a serial rapist and murderer. Lived in my house, drove me to school. Was executed in TX. And I’m still against the death penalty. ‘magine that. Are brains asploding everywhere yet?

  47. sosw says

    I always laugh when I hear about prison justice and such. There is no such thing as a prison justice. Only criminals being thugs. Frankly, those kinds of wishes say a lot about an individual.

    Additionally, if (and from what I’ve heard, in the US, when) prison environments are so out-of-control that the inmates can get away with such things, who do you think are the most likely victims? What kind of an “internal social order” do you think such an environment would create?

    The most defenseless individuals, probably often those who otherwise would have had the best chances of rehabilitation are the most likely victims.

    (Questions obviously not addressed to you, but as a continuation of your thoughts)

  48. says

    Jafafa Hots:

    Are brains asploding everywhere yet?

    Not mine. I’m against the death penalty as well and have had countless people ask me how I could possibly do that, given my particular experience. There are a lot of clueless, thoughtless, stupid people out there.

  49. Tethys says

    If you, or any other of your pals here want to continue with this bizarre assertion that my kneejerk, admittedly unoriginal comment above somehow reflects a pro-rape agenda you will only be discrediting yourselves

    No you idiot, we are trying to get it through your dense skull that your kneejerk reaction of making a prison rape joke IS rape culture.

    Take the red pill.

  50. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Josh, if you want to spit on someone for making the Sandusky-shower-prison connection, go for a walk near any public space where folks have had opportunity to hear the news and hose’em down with as much fluid as you can hock up in a broad spray, you will acheive multiple hits

    I’d rather spit on you, because you deserve it more than some random pedestrian.

  51. shoshidge says

    Caine, I’m sorry that happened to you, and I wish you the best for your recovery.
    I am also impressed that your friends and family were able to restrain their outrage in your presence, but if they are like anyone else I know, they spat sheer venom when the opportunity arised.
    Comment threads are a good place to spit venom, and if someone in your family got online and expressed the sincere wish in the high emotion of the moment that someone would drive a train full of poisonous snakes into the man who assaulted you, I for one, would not blame them under the circumstances.

    When part of me saw a sense of justice in the idea that Sandusky might get some of what he gave it was because I think rape is awful and I have no moral qualms about the fact that part of my psyche wishes awful things to happen to awful people.

  52. says

    Shoshidge, are you strutting around like this because you got your horrible ‘joke’ in before PZ lowered the boom? You know that isn’t going to save you from the dungeon if he thinks you’re being an ass about it? Rather the opposite, I suspect.

  53. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    I have no moral qualms about the fact that part of my psyche wishes awful things to happen to awful people.

    That’s the PROBLEM.

  54. says

    One thing Sandusky will at least feel in common with his victims is he will probably experience the dread of fearing being raped himself, probably for the first time in his overpriveliged life.

    That is as far as I am willing to go. I hope he feels nothing but that fear every day for the rest of his miserable life.

  55. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    Caine, I’m sorry that happened to you, and I wish you the best for your recovery.

    You know what’s definitely super helpful for one’s recovery? Listening to people talk about how much they wish that what happened to you would happen more, to more people.

  56. says

    this may be going way off topic here, but regarding prison rape and other things like racist prison gangs, etc…
    It occurs to me that rape culture in prison is tolerated not only because the outside culture seems to gleefully enjoy it, but perhaps also for the same reason that racist gang culture thrives in prison.

    I don’t think it would be impossible to protect prisoners from rape, any more than it would be impossible to prevent racist gang culture in prisons.

    It would just cost a little money. But more than that, I see prison rape and racial violence being essentially encouraged by prisons. They’re a tool.

    A lot easier for 150 guards to deal with 3500 prisoners if the prisoners are busy targeting each other. Divide and conquer.

    And now that many prisons are for-profit, prison rape and racial violence are a nice cost savings.

    There’s money to be made in that there rape culture!

  57. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Caine, I’m sorry that happened to you, and I wish you the best for your recovery.

    Fuck you.

    When part of me saw a sense of justice in the idea that Sandusky might get some of what he gave

    Remember that movie “The Accused?” The one with Jodie Foster and Kelly McGillis? The real woman whose gang-rape that was based on, Cheryl Araujo, was a high school student of my aunt. New Bedford, Mass, was roiled by that case and Cheryl went through a living hell. Cheryl was a real person, a real live girl that people in town knew.

    I was far too young to know what was going on when that case was being tried, but I can tell you that no one involved in it—including my aunt who still tears up when she talks about Cheryl—shares rape revenge fantasies.

  58. consciousness razor says

    That is as far as I am willing to go. I hope he feels nothing but that fear every day for the rest of his miserable life.

    Then you’re going way too far — to where, I have no idea. Maybe I don’t want to know.

  59. thesoftmachine says

    “Now let’s sit down and talk about which crimes against which persons (real or imaginary) are “unforgivable” and thus justify rape and/or murder. I’m sure it will be a productive conversation.”

    Okay.

    Nearly two years ago my eight year old great nephew was murdered by his step father; held down and hacked to death with a machete. This was after he had murdered my niece. If he hadn’t hanged himself later, anything that would have been done to him would have been acceptable to me. Anything. I make no apologies for it whatsoever.

  60. says

    shoshidge:

    When part of me saw a sense of justice in the idea that Sandusky might get some of what he gave it was because I think rape is awful and I have no moral qualms about the fact that part of my psyche wishes awful things to happen to awful people.

    This is where you go completely wrong. There’s no justice involved in Sandusky being raped. It would be yet another horrible crime which in no way is justified.

    I get that you think rape is awful, however, from what I’m reading, you don’t have a clue about rape at all. You don’t know what it’s like, you don’t know the different guises, you don’t know how people are affected, you don’t know what going through the legal part is like and you don’t know a damn thing about recovery.

    You have every opportunity here to listen to people and to educate yourself, rather than continuing to attempt a weak justification for your statements.

    One of the reasons people here are so ferocious about anything which contributes to and perpetuates rape culture is that people here know what it is to be raped, they know what it is when a loved one is raped, they know what it is when people have to deal with the legal side, they know what it is to deal with the fear of being raped, with recovery, etc.

    Rape must never be wished on someone, it must never be condoned, not even in the heat of the moment. It is a horrible crime, it’s a terrible thing to do to someone and it’s only when you truly understand that, that you understand why rape culture must be fought every moment of every day.

  61. keiththompson says

    shoshidge: At least for the sake of argument, I’ll give you more benefit of the doubt than most other commenters here are giving you.

    Here’s what you wrote in your initial comment:

    It’s times like this when part of me hopes there is some truth to those stories about prison showers

    In a later comment, you wrote:

    No, of course I don’t actually want to see him raped in prison, but I suspect he won’t have an easy time of it anyway.

    I’ll take your word for that — but IMHO you should be aware of a couple of things:

    First, there are a lot of people out there who really do want him to be raped in prison. Perhaps they wouldn’t think that way if they actually stopped and thought about it, but the sentiment is out there. (Disclaimer: I haven’t taken the time to get any actual evidence for this assertion, but it seems plausible.)

    Second, your initial comment did absolutely nothing to distinguish you from those people.

  62. says

    You’re like Conspiracy Keanu, but with real LOGIC!

    Not sure what this was intended to mean, so I’ll just register that it was read and is being held for further analysis.

  63. says

    Cipher:

    You know what’s definitely super helpful for one’s recovery? Listening to people talk about how much they wish that what happened to you would happen more, to more people.

    Yep. This is why I made the point that shoshidge is the exact type of person who would make everything worse for a rape victim. The cluelessness is painful.

    thesoftmachine:

    anything that would have been done to him would have been acceptable to me. Anything. I make no apologies for it whatsoever.

    Gee, that’s just dandy. You’re either too much of a coward to do something yourself, so you’d happily egg someone else on when it came to another violent crime, or you’d happily engage in a violent crime yourself. Yeah, that’s helping.

  64. samoanbiscuit says

    @Jafafa Hots #72
    It’s a meme you can read up on here. I just meant that your insight in comment #65 was really good and thought provoking.

  65. says

    @67 consciousness razor

    I suppose I’m hoping that experiencing that fear would begin to give him a clue as to how much damage he’s done and at least give him insight into what he’s done. No more than that.

    I want him to understand the enormity of what he’s done not just in terms of the consequences to him (lost liberty, reputation etc.) but to understand the damage and hurt he caused to other people.

    I suspect this comes from seeing too many priests and offenders (including sadly the one who attacked a dear friend of mine) who just had no understanding of the damage they’d done. He thought it was no big deal, and couldn’t understand what the fuss was about, even after his conviction.

  66. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    Nearly two years ago my eight year old great nephew was murdered by his step father; held down and hacked to death with a machete. This was after he had murdered my niece. If he hadn’t hanged himself later, anything that would have been done to him would have been acceptable to me. Anything. I make no apologies for it whatsoever.

    I’m so sorry for what you and your family have gone through. There aren’t words.

    Nothing justifies rape. The victim is not the only person involved. For a rape to happen, there must be a rapist. Someone is still committing a monstrous act, a horrible crime. Rape doesn’t clean anything up, doesn’t save anyone, just gives us another crime, another torturer to deal with, and another victim. The instant we start saying “this rape is justified, this rapist is okay, this victim doesn’t count” we open the door for someone to say the same about us. Not one rape is ever okay, no matter how strong and how understandable the desire for revenge is. Never.

  67. mickll says

    I’d like to hope this sends out a message to people who might protect evil creatures like this a message, I fear there will still be plenty who’ll try and still sweep it under the rug and hope it goes away!

  68. shoshidge says

    Caine, I realize there is no justice in Sandusky being raped, I wasn’t calling for it, or advocating it, I was merely expressing a sentiment which is common among most people, a desire for reciprocity.
    Reciprocity is part of our innate sense of justice and it can bubble up in the face of crimes like the ones Sandusky was convicted of.
    My comment was meant to express that I was succeptible to this tendency, that I realized it in myself and was in a state of.. I dunno… cognitive conflict?
    Part of me hoped he got something worse than 40 years of three squares and access to TV and library.
    The other part, the dominant one, is against capital punishment like the rest of you, and is proud of our relatively enlightened view of criminal justice, particularly so because I’m Canadian, where we are a little more enlightened on that issue than the USA I’m smugly proud to say.

    As for ‘rape culture’, I’m still trying to figure out what that is and how I’m contributing to it, I’m inclined to think it’s BS

  69. says

    When people defend prison rape, I see it as people arguing that rape is sometimes a perfectly legitimate tool, the rapist they’re complaining about just used it wrong. Poor targeting is his crime.

  70. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    [Meta: I’m making this reference with some trepidation, but I’m hoping it’ll get the concept through to some of the thicker readers.]

    For the clueless:

    You know the joke that ends in “We’ve established what kind of girl you are, now we’re just haggling over price?” (Google it if needs be.)

    It’s like that. Only without the sexism. When you’re willing to say that raping someone is okay in some circumstances, you’ve already established what kind of person you are. Claiming that rape is justified if the victim is a rapist themselves, but not if, say, they’re a burglar, or cut you off in traffic, or dressed in a way you don’t approve of, is “just haggling over price.”

    I think you understand.

  71. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    I’m still trying to figure out what that is and how I’m contributing to it,

    I’m inclined to think it’s BS

    Make up your mind.

  72. says

    I’m still trying to figure out what that is and how I’m contributing to it, I’m inclined to think it’s BS

    Well, there’s ONE example for you.

  73. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    As for ‘rape culture’, I’m still trying to figure out what that is and how I’m contributing to it, I’m inclined to think it’s BS

    I’m inclined to think you’re profoundly ignorant.
    Rape culture is the tendency of society to blame victims, justify rape, and shield rapists. There are a number of facets and causes for it. One of which is the widespread willingness of idiots like yourself to condone rape, under certain circumstances, or to pretend that condoning it can be done as a harmless joke.

  74. keiththompson says

    shoshidge:

    As for ‘rape culture’, I’m still trying to figure out what that is and how I’m contributing to it, I’m inclined to think it’s BS

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture

    (I haven’t yet read the whole article myself, but it’s likely to be a good start.)

  75. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture

    (I haven’t yet read the whole article myself, but it’s likely to be a good start.)

    “What, you mean READ?”

    “While we’re still ALIVE?”

    “What’s the point of reading about stuff when you can just wish rape on the stuff the words tell you stuff about!”

  76. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    Reciprocity is part of our innate sense of justice and it can bubble up in the face of crimes like the ones Sandusky was convicted of.

    Do you really think this is a useful thing to lecture Caine about, considering the experiences she’s already related in this thread? Your Dunning-Kruger problem is immense, a marvel, a fucking wonder of the world. I’m vaguely sick just contemplating the vastness of it.

  77. amblebury says

    Nearly two years ago my eight year old great nephew was murdered by his step father; held down and hacked to death with a machete. This was after he had murdered my niece. If he hadn’t hanged himself later, anything that would have been done to him would have been acceptable to me. Anything. I make no apologies for it whatsoever.

    I’m so sorry. That’s unspeakably awful, it really is.

    This is what we have, it is a cornerstone of a civilised society: we have a justice system. Sometimes, people think or wish it to be a vengeance system, but it’s not. I understand people who have vengeance fantasies, I do. I’d probably have them myself. But even if it’s understandable, it doesn’t make it right, and it shouldn’t be acted on – because more of the same can never, ever help. Torch and pitchfork cheering parties, (Shoshidge) are there I suspect because it makes them feel superior in some way.

    No matter how effective your system is, it can’t make you un-raped or un-murdered or un-bereft. That’s what the victims live with, for ever.

    Listen to them, and for fuck’s sake, don’t think it helps to make more of them, or suggest there should be more of them because y’know, balance.

  78. says

    Jafafa Hots:

    When people defend prison rape, I see it as people arguing that rape is sometimes a perfectly legitimate tool, the rapist they’re complaining about just used it wrong. Poor targeting is his crime.

    QFFT.

    shoshidge:

    As for ‘rape culture’, I’m still trying to figure out what that is and how I’m contributing to it, I’m inclined to think it’s BS

    Oh FFS. What in the fuck is wrong with you? In one fucking sentence, you just proved what I said about you not having a single fucking clue as to what rape is or how it affects people. Jesus, do us all a favour and shut the fuck up and attempt to educate yourself. You are now doing active harm.

  79. truebutnotuseful says

    shoshidge wrote:

    As for ‘rape culture’, I’m still trying to figure out what that is and how I’m contributing to it, I’m inclined to think it’s BS

    So you’re saying, “I don’t know what rape culture is, but I know it’s B.S.”
    Take a minute, think about it really hard, and see if you can see the problem inherent in this statement.

    If you genuinely are interested in learning what rape culture is, there’s a neat website you can go to. It has a little empty box on it. If you want to know more about something, you put words in the box and click a button and then a bunch more words will appear and explain the thing you put in the box! It’s fucking magical.

  80. says

    Would he have been able to get away with it as long as he had if the victims had been female? It seems to be that you have to fuck a large amount of boys before you get called on it.

  81. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    Would he have been able to get away with it as long as he had if the victims had been female? It seems to be that you have to fuck a large amount of boys before you get called on it.

    Marlorocci, ignorant as ever.

  82. says

    Reciprocity is part of our innate sense of justice and it can bubble up in the face of crimes like the ones Sandusky was convicted of.

    As you’re back to being a vile douchecake, here’s a helpful tip: speak for yourself. Do not be putting your brokenness onto everyone else.

    I am not the only rape victim who has been attempting to help you get a clue throughout this thread and now you’re going back to attempting to justify yourself where there is no justification.

    Have a decaying porcupine, I’m done with you. *spits*

  83. anuran says

    The people who defend prison rape would not generally be willing to do the deed themselves. And the ones who would are not the sort you would want between you and the door.

  84. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Would he have been able to get away with it as long as he had if the victims had been female? It seems to be that you have to fuck a large amount of boys before you get called on it.

    Unfortunately, the sad, sick truth is “possibly.” :(

    But…

    Marlorocci, ignorant as ever.

    I take it there’s a history here?

  85. anuran says

    #8 Crip Dyke,

    The Prosecution revealed Sandusky’s adopted son was willing to testify that he had been raped. They felt they had a strong enough case without it. Multiply that by the ones who are dead or in jail, are trying to put it behind them, don’t want others to know or would be too traumatized to recount it under oath.

    The man probably raped dozens if not hundreds over the years.

  86. John Morales says

    [synchronicity]

    In the news in Australia: Surprise findings in sexual abuse victim study

    A landmark Australian study has found the vast majority of people who are sexually abused as children do not become offenders themselves.

    But the study finds that overall they are five times more likely than other members of the population to be charged with some sort of offence.

    The researchers say the findings suggest the victims of childhood sexual abuse need more help to recover, especially during their teenage years.

  87. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    Marlorocci is a gross, antifeminist troll with hir head lodged firmly up hir ass. Hir comments are sporadic but consistently worthless. If I had a killfile on this computer, xe’d be the second one in it. (The endlessly babbling self-important wad of PUA slime would be first.)

  88. loreo says

    This has been a fascinating conversation to read.

    The courage of you who have remained rational, who never stopped working to establish the better nature of humans, is inspiring.

    We may be apes, apes who thrill to violence and find meaning in granfalloon tribalism, but some of us fight to be a species worthy of our brief, beautiful moment in the sun.

    Thank you.

    (Please forgive my grandiose phrasing. I’m a bit… chemically enhanced.)

  89. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    Oh, and here’s the comment I was actually looking for. A sample:

    Claiming this culture is a “rape culture” is a backhanded way of saying all men commit or approve of rape. That’s about as bigoted as saying the jews run the goverment.

  90. says

    John:

    But the study finds that overall they are five times more likely than other members of the population to be charged with some sort of offence.

    That’s not surprising. There was a point in my life I had to actively decide against murdering. In the end, self interest won the day. As for lesser type offences, I’m lucky I didn’t get caught.

    The researchers say the findings suggest the victims of childhood sexual abuse need more help to recover, especially during their teenage years.

    I’d say this is most likely true. Recovery is extremely difficult, especially when you’re still under the rule of family and it’s often a member of that family who is the abuser.

  91. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Oh, and here’s the comment I was actually looking for. A sample:

    Claiming this culture is a “rape culture” is a backhanded way of saying all men commit or approve of rape. That’s about as bigoted as saying the jews run the goverment.

    Eww. Point taken.

  92. autumn says

    To all those with the courage to speak without rancor, without resorting to lynch-law excuses, thank you. I can’t imagine what you live with, but I do know that a lot of you have made me a much more thoughtful, less hate-filled person over the last few years.
    I also know that i’ve said a bunch of assholeish comments, and I apologize for them.
    I also would never wish for a crime to be answered by a crime, and I sadly find myself seemingly in the minority in real life. Y’all have consistantly restored my belief that society might just improve.
    Sandusky will serve a life term in a brutal prison system, and my hope is that he will think about his crimes and truely feel remorse.

  93. equisetum says

    Would he have been able to get away with it as long as he had if the victims had been female? It seems to be that you have to fuck a large amount of boys before you get called on it.

    I knew a serial child rapist whose victims were exclusively female. He got away with it for about forty years. Is that long enough for you?

    Fuck off.

  94. shoshidge says

    I’ve read some of what google has to offer on the topic of rape culture and I still don’t know how it applies to me or my words.
    I also still don’t know what it has to do with first world western culture where it is widely accepted that, next to outright murder, rape is the worst thing you can do to a person.

    Nobody wants to see anyone they love get raped.
    (Nobody sane).
    Nobody approves of strangers getting raped.

    All of those girls who call or write to Dan Savage talking about their rape fantasies are worried that their friends will think they’re nuts or their boyfriends will get thrown in prison for trying to indulge their kinks, because fantasizing about rape is evidence that you are a horrible person and a bad feminist…
    Are they guilty of promoting rape culture?

  95. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    I’ve read some of what google has to offer on the topic of rape culture

    Yay! Great!

    and I still don’t know how it applies to me or my words.

    Nope. Turn around and go back out of this thread. You’re still too ignorant to engage with.

  96. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    All of those girls who call or write to Dan Savage talking about their rape fantasies are worried that their friends will think they’re nuts or their boyfriends will get thrown in prison for trying to indulge their kinks, because fantasizing about rape is evidence that you are a horrible person and a bad feminist…
    Are they guilty of promoting rape culture?

    And also, have this complimentary rotting porcupine. Please feel free to indulge your kinks with it as you see fit. You fucking horrible piece of shit.

  97. John Morales says

    shoshidge:

    I’ve read some of what google has to offer on the topic of rape culture and I still don’t know how it applies to me or my words.

    Rape culture

    Rape culture is a concept used to describe a culture in which rape and sexual violence are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone sexual violence.

    cf:

    The only thing I’m going to apologize for regarding the comment I made was it’s obviousness, it’s kind of a cheap shot and it was bound to be made by someone, and it is now being made in pubs across America where the news is being announced, in much more coarse terms than I used, by men and women, of all political stripes.

  98. says

    loreo:

    We may be apes, apes who thrill to violence and find meaning in granfalloon tribalism, but some of us fight to be a species worthy of our brief, beautiful moment in the sun.

    That’s lovely. Reminds me of “…to be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape.” from Hogfather.

    Autumn, thank you.

  99. theophontes (坏蛋) says

    @ shoshidge

    [rape fantasies] Are they guilty of promoting rape culture?

    Anything that legitimises rape in any way, or in any situation, is wrong, PERIOD. What part of this do you fail to understand? Do you have a problem with understanding what consensual sex is?

  100. shoshidge says

    Caine, you said there was a time in your life when you had to actively decide against murdering.

    I’m assuming the person you wanted to murder was the sociopath who raped you, who you decribed earlier.
    Yet, you didn’t, you climbed out of that psychological pit which made you contmplate an action which was contrary to your principles and moved forward, right?

    Well done, but that initial impulse was still there, deep down you wanted to kill him.
    I don’t blame you in the slightest for having that sentiment because I know that you were expressing an impulse or desire, rather than a plan of action, your better self stopped you before that could happen.

    I don’t assume that because you wished someone dead at some point,(understandable in this case), that you believe in capital punishment.
    Likewise, because I admitted to an urge to see Sandusky fallen upon by a group of sadistic convicts, that doesn’t mean that I condone rape

  101. says

    shoshidge #106:

    All of those girls who call or write to Dan Savage talking about their rape fantasies are worried that their friends will think they’re nuts or their boyfriends will get thrown in prison for trying to indulge their kinks, because fantasizing about rape is evidence that you are a horrible person and a bad feminist…
    Are they guilty of promoting rape culture?

    These aren’t “rape fantasies”. By definition, a rape fantasy can only be on the part of the rapist, because the victim by definition is non-consenting.

    What you are describing is not a rape fantasy, but rather a BDSM submissive fantasy taken to the point where play-acting a “rape” of the sub is acceptable. The fact that it is called a “rape” fantasy is a result of the ignorance surrounding both the nature of BDSM kinks and the nature of rape: power. Rape is an act where the rapist exercises power over the victim. BDSM is a kink involving the power differential between the dominant and submissive components of the relationship.

    These women (“girls” refers to children, and use of this term to refer to someone who does not use it to identify themselves should thus be avoided when not referring to children as it implies that the women in question are children) are not fantasizing about being raped. They are fantasizing about being dominated. And I damn well bet that they’d prefer to willfully meet their dominant beforehand to set up acceptable boundaries and safe-words (code words meant to indicate “stop”, since “no” and “stop” will themselves be used as part of the act in most BDSM play) as well as get to know them and develop trust, rather than be raped by a complete stranger or worse yet — and far more commonly — someone they already know and trust.

    As you’ve already been given one chance to go do some research, I’m going to just come out right here and say that your “research” involved scouring Google to find something that justified you from how you came back with this extremely ignorant piece of bullshit. Based on this, I don’t expect you to take me seriously, so after this word it’s gloves off you misogynistic infantilizing asshole.

  102. says

    Theophontes:

    Do you have a problem with understanding what consensual sex is?

    Cue the cry of “Hey, both people in a consensual sexual relationship can have a rape fantasy!1!!1″

    This is not about consensual sex or rape fantasies. This is about shoshidge deciding to double down and dig even more furiously than before.

    What we’re hearing now is “oh, this rape culture stuff, it’s bullshit. What about rape fantasies, huh? Women can have those too, ya know. What about that? Geez, going by all that stuff and what you guys are saying, everyone is a rapist or a potential rapist. That’s not fair!!!1! Can you even talk about sex without being labeled!?!!”

    And so on. Same old, tired crap. From someone who wished rape on a person.

  103. DLC says

    But, I do want Sandusky to suffer.
    I sincerely do hope he suffers mightily in prison.
    I hope he has to endure being told when, where and how to :
    sleep, eat, exercise, work, read, bathe and excrete.
    I truly wish he suffers being reminded of the crimes he committed every damn day. I finally wish he would have to suffer such for the entire 60, 100 or 400 years he gets sentenced to, even if it means extending his miserable horrible pervy life.

    But I do not want him to suffer rape or beatings. Inflicting more crime on him will not undo the years of horror, humiliation and pain he inflicted on young boys. It’s not even revenge, just brutality. In any case, revenge is nothing more than dead sea fruit — it looks sweet yet turns to ash in the mouth.

  104. says

    shoshidge #112:

    Likewise, because I admitted to an urge to see Sandusky fallen upon by a group of sadistic convicts, that doesn’t mean that I condone rape

    Being told to do some research and coming back spouting off about “rape fantasies” (which you would know to be oxymorons had you actually looked up the definition of rape) has nothing to do with fantasizing about someone else being raped.

    Do try to keep up.

  105. Cyranothe2nd says

    Reciprocity is part of our innate sense of justice…

    No. Reciprocity is what people who are inured to violence–people who have no conscience–do. I cannot comprehend the actual act of hurting another person without their consent. I don’t think I could do it. Not trying to make a moral statement here…I think it goes beyond my mental wrangling. I literally don’t think I could do it. It is repugnant to me to harm someone else. Even when I’ve had to do it to defend myself, I reacted with shock and horror afterward.

    That’s not to say that I haven’t been angry. Truly, horribly angry. But to hurt someone the way Sandusky hurt his victims requires one to completely turn off empathy…it requires one to be as sadistic as he is. Just…no.

    As for the questions about rape fantasies–as a Femdomme, I will say that the difference between that and actual rape is fucking night and day because ~~~consent is magic~~~ Whether it perpetuates rape culture…I’ve thought about that a lot and I don’t think so, because again, it’s about consensual play. Anyone who isn’t an idiot isn’t going to go, “Hey, I know that you were totally raped, but my girlfriend playacted a rape scene with me last night and it wasn’t so bad, so what are you crying for?” Anyone with an ounce of empathy and sense knows that the two things are not analogous.

  106. amblebury says

    Likewise, because I admitted to an urge to see Sandusky fallen upon by a group of sadistic convicts, that doesn’t mean that I condone rape

    Point is, Caine probably didn’t make a point of announcing in public, “Let’s murder someone! I say! What a jolly justice-serving jape that would be!

    And expecting everyone to chortle and applaud. Getting it?

  107. Cyranothe2nd says

    @ Amblebury,

    I never knew Caine was the Queen of England. “Helloooooooooo.”

  108. says

    Caine, you said there was a time in your life when you had to actively decide against murdering.

    Yes. That was when I was around eleven years old.

    I’m assuming the person you wanted to murder was the sociopath who raped you, who you decribed earlier.

    You assume wrong, asshole. My childhood was just a lovely bowl of shit. The regulars here know all about it. I will not recite the horror show that was my life for your benefit.

    Not one single person ever knew how close I came to murder (and it wasn’t just one person I had in mind, either), it was something I dealt with alone. My rage was to a point that it would have quite easy to give in to that impulse. I had already attempted suicide more than once by the time I was eleven. First attempt was when I was eight years old.

    I’m lucky I came out as intact as I did, don’t you dare attempt to use my experiences to justify your crap. Don’t you fucking dare, you useless piece of shit.

  109. says

    Am I the only person who has noticed that the crowds cheering “GOOD, let him get a taste of that in prison!” mostly seem to come out only after news about certain KINDS of rape? Or to be more clear, when certain kinds of people were the victims?

    How many people out there saying “good, that child rapist will get a taste of his own medicine!” have also said at other times “well, raping anyone is bad, but seriously, what did she expect, being out ____ in a _____ like that?”

  110. says

    Am I the only person who has noticed that the crowds cheering “GOOD, let him get a taste of that in prison!” mostly seem to come out only after news about certain KINDS of rape?

    I think the only person in here who hasn’t noticed that is shoshidge, as he’s the only one here who has said that it’s possible to fantasize about being raped.

  111. amblebury says

    @Cyranothe2nd

    It’d be fun if she was ;)

    I was trying to convey the (to me) frightening glibness of the, “ooh, let’s hope they get raped too!” response.

    Apologies if it didn’t come off, and to you too, Caine, if it was out of line.

  112. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    Having taken several deep breaths and pulled out some of my hair, I’m going to try this again.

    Listen, you disgusting fucking slime, because I’m only going to try to explain this to you once.

    You do not get to appropriate those “girls'” (presumably women’s) sex lives and experiences to make your point about how you saying you hope someone is raped in prison is lol totally harmless. Women like them – well, no, let’s cut to the chase here. Women like me are not actually fantasizing about rape. They are fantasizing about a wanted encounter, because otherwise it would not be a fantasy, it would be having a nightmare. Not only is it tremendously, disgustingly ignorant and privileged of you to pull out this “think of the submissives!” bullshit when you clearly have no fucking idea what you’re talking about, but it’s fucking monstrous that you are doing so in support of saying you’d like someone to be raped. Misinformation exactly like what you just parroted, the conflation of sexual fantasy about being dominated with nonconsent, was in large part responsible for the psychological destruction that being raped and abused by my dominant wreaked on me. Back the fuck off of that point and never try to pull that shit again.

  113. Cyranothe2nd says

    @ Amblebury–no, it did. I laughed out loud ;)

    @ Setar–good point. What people who have “rape fantasies” are fantasizing about isn’t actually rape. We really ought to find another name for it because describing it that way trivializes actual rape, doesn’t it?

  114. Cyranothe2nd says

    Cipher–maybe shoshidge has read 50 Shades one too many times? (One is too many times…)

  115. says

    Amblebury:

    Apologies if it didn’t come off, and to you too, Caine, if it was out of line.

    It wasn’t, no need to apologize. As for me being Queen, not a good idear. I’d peer icily down my nose at someone like shoshidge and let go with a quiet “Off with his head!” *sniffs royally*

  116. shoshidge says

    Theo, I understand that consensual sex is doing whatever turns your crank as long as it’s consensual.

    I once went to bed with a woman who insisted,(in the moment) that she couldn’t have an orgasm unless I slapped her across the face.

    I did it too, not hard, and it worked, that was one of many experiences I’ve had which convinced me that all the stuff I was taught in college about sexuality and consent and the capacity for human perversity was way too political and over simplified.

    My first girlfriend in junior high school had a thing for being tied up. At 14, it wasn’t my idea, but I played along and as a result, the first pair of tits I felt belonged to an underage girl who was loosely and ineptly bound with a pair of nylon stockings by the wrist…at her insistence.
    We are still friends, she is still into bondage and not ashamed of the fact and she describes herself as a feminist.

    I am not into BDSM myself, or polyamory, or any of the other saucy goings on which are popular with the hip kids today, but I defend the idea that being honest about your dark side, even when it conflicts with your politics, is a good thing, it’s a sign of progress, it is a sign that we are moving beyond rape culture, because the taboo has been broken and we can express our inner thoughts and desires without being shouted down by a bunch of hypocrites and prudes.

  117. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Caine for Red Queen of Pharyngula!

  118. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    I am not into BDSM myself, or polyamory, or any of the other saucy goings on which are popular with the hip kids today, but I defend the idea that being honest about your dark side, even when it conflicts with your politics, is a good thing, it’s a sign of progress, it is a sign that we are moving beyond rape culture, because the taboo has been broken and we can express our inner thoughts and desires without being shouted down by a bunch of hypocrites and prudes.

    Fuck you, shoshidge, you fucking oblivious monster, you vile, ignorant, privilege-blinded shitbag.

    I am out of this thread for the night. My jaw has started to hurt from grinding my teeth. To the decent human beings in this thread, thank you, I’m sorry, and goodnight.

  119. theophontes (坏蛋) says

    @ Caine

    This is about shoshidge deciding to double down and dig even more furiously than before.

    I have watched this and perhaps too wishfully hoped there might be a little bit of intellectual honesty, not yet smothered by its ego, that is open to considering the issues involved. That shoshidge would connect the dots…

    (I see Setár and Cyranothe2nd have done a more articulate job than I have.)

  120. says

    What I wonder is how wishing rape on a criminal is different than wishing for a lynching.

    Oh, wait. The answer is “it really isn’t.”

    Good riddance to this guy, though. Nothing can undo the staggering amount of cruelty he’s done. But he’ll (hopefully) never be a part of society again. And that’s one small good, in the sea of sorrows.

  121. Tethys says

    EEwwwwww. Soshidge just hoggled all over the thread.
    —-

    Caine for Red Queen of Pharyngula!

    I likes it!

    Pip pip, hoorah and assorted royal cheering.

  122. shoshidge says

    Caine, I’m sorry my assumption was wrong, although I think it was a reasonable one.
    I am not a regular, and don’t know your details, but I do know that most of us have dark thoughts, (it sounds like you are entitled to more than your share), most of us don’t act on them.
    That is normal, and not deserving of waves of shreiking condemnation.

    I don’t intend to be a regular either as most of you will pretend to be happy to hear.
    If it weren’t for chumps like me popping up from time to time, you would have nothing to chew on things would get pretty boring.

  123. amblebury says

    Caine for Red Queen of Pharyngula!

    Corgis out, ratties in.

    I’m seeing it.

  124. says

    Tethys:

    I likes it!

    Pip pip, hoorah and assorted royal cheering.

    All I can say is that it’s a very good thing that the power resides with our benevolent overlord, ’cause if I had RQ power, shoshidge would have had his sorry ass banhammered into the ground and out the other side by now.

    I suppose Red Queen is a good fit for me… ;p

  125. athyco says

    @2:

    It’s times like this when part of me hopes there is some truth to those stories about prison showers

    @128:

    …because the taboo has been broken and we can express our inner thoughts and desires without being shouted down by a bunch of hypocrites and prudes.

    Wrong–and isn’t it obvious even to you that you’re wrong? Your inner thoughts and desires are repugnant and will be shouted down. There have been comments about wishing Sandusky could comprehend what pain he had caused, what rebuilding must go on for years to come for those he violated, and I find I’m in that same frame of mind as far as you are concerned.

    You say that

    …all the stuff I was taught in college about sexuality and consent and the capacity for human perversity was way too political and over simplified.

    That’s bullshit in your evaluation of what would/could have been presented in any college course. It’s bullseye accurate for what someone of your shallow understanding and judgmental narrowmindedness could possibly get from it. (Political?!?)

    And don’t tell us any fucking more that you organized by taking peepee dictation for letters to Penthouse, shitstain.

  126. theophontes (坏蛋) says

    @ shoshidge

    I am not into BDSM myself, or polyamory, or any of the other saucy goings on which are popular with the hip kids today, but I defend the idea that being honest about your dark side, even when it conflicts with your politics, is a good thing, it’s a sign of progress, it is a sign that we are moving beyond rape culture, because the taboo has been broken and we can express our inner thoughts and desires without being shouted down by a bunch of hypocrites and prudes.

    Holy Fuck! Where did that come from?

    Are you now pretending to conflate disparate issues so that I’ll say: “There there, shoshidge, I misunderstood you.”?

    Errrr … no shoshidge, your dishonesty is becoming as horrible as your ideas.

    [This one really needs to be moved to TZT, so as not to pollute the regular threads.]

  127. phlaw says

    I haven’t checked pharyngula for a while, but good to see it’s as active as ever!

    Just a small point – a few comments have joked about hoping Sandusky would live longer, to increase his punishment/suffering. And nobody seems to mind that. Now I’m not condoning shoshidge’s original comment, but don’t the 2 ‘jokes’ share the same sentiment?

  128. Tethys says

    I don’t intend to be a regular either as most of you will pretend to be happy to hear.

    I won’t be pretending.

    If it weren’t for chumps like me popping up from time to time, you would have nothing to chew on things would get pretty boring.

    Sadly, there has never been a shortage of completely clueless gits on these threads. We hear the same awful arguments ad nauseum, on every fucking thread that involves rape. I wonder what it might be like to have a discussion that didn’t devolve into some asshole taking over the thread with hurtful bullshit for their own twisted amusement.

  129. Moggie says

    I’ve often wondered why those who speak with relish about prison rape are happy to leave this “punishment” in the hands of violent criminals. Violent criminals just aren’t reliable enough: you can’t rely on them to pick the right victims, or to punish only in proportion. That thug who’s raping Sandusky with your approval is probably also raping some harmless guy who’s serving time for a victimless drug conviction: and he’s enjoying it. Why do you want to reward him by allowing him to behave like the predator he wants to be? Furthermore, why do you assume that your approved victims won’t become perpetrators of prison rape?

    No. If you imagine prison rape to be a fitting punishment for some criminals, please have the courage of your convictions and advocate that it be put on a sound, professional footing. Call for state-appointed rapists to be employed by prisons, operating to clearly-defined rape sentences handed down by the courts, with unlicensed prison rape being punished severely.

    If you find this modest proposal horrifying, if you think “what kind of monster would regard that as reasonable?”, perhaps there’s hope for your humanity after all.

  130. Beatrice says

    Yay for Sandusky being convicted. It could have happened earlier if some people had a conscience and hadn’t protected him.

    ——

    shoshidge,

    Your #128 not only constitutes oversharing, but it completely ignores all the commenters who explained to you the difference between having fantasies about consensual kinky/rough sex and having fantasies about someone’s rape.

  131. shoshidge says

    If Cipher were still here I would ask him what I have said indicated I was ‘privilege blinded’?
    Anyone elso want to educate me?

    I wasn’t trying to be smutty, rather, I was indicating how, at a fairly young age, real life experience was contrary to what I was being told about sexual dynamics in post secondary school.

    we all know that men have huge capacity for sexual weirdness, and , unfortunately, sadism and violence.

    But what I came to realize is that women are the same, hooray for equality! and every day, having been freed from the taboo of discussing their sexual desires, they feel freer to come out and say so.
    What do you say to women with submissive tendencies? who want to be sexually humiliated? and who aren’t the victims of previous sexual abuse? beacuse they are out there. I’ve met a few and the encounters left me confused as hell, and they make liars out of those who claim that consensual sex is always a simple yes/no proposition

  132. athyco says

    *powerwashes shoshidge hoggling into the gutter*

    *rolls out red carpet for the Red Queen*

    I much prefer the direction of posts for a new monarchy. What will be some of the traditions of your coronation, Your Mousety? The banquet must include cupcakes, I’m sure.

  133. Beatrice says

    shoshidge,

    Don’t make this thread about people with non-normative sexual fantasies when it was about your wishing rape on someone. The first doesn’t need your defending because no one is attacking it. Wishing rape on someone has nothing to do with any kind of consensual fantasies, no matter how out of norm they are. The word “consensual” kinda makes it obvious.

    You are trying to deliberately muddy the waters. Knock it off.

  134. says

    athyco:

    What will be some of the traditions of your coronation, Your Mousety? The banquet must include cupcakes, I’m sure.

    Naturally. Red Velvet cupcakes, perhaps. What good is being Reine Rouge if I can’t languidly wave a hand and utter Let them eat cake?

  135. throwaway says

    Bill Maher made a prison rape wish. The one time I wanted to watch the dude’s show (Rachel Maddow was on the panel) and he had to remind me of why I never go near it otherwise. Glurgh.

  136. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    ARGH. I realized when I got upstairs that I’d forgotten my pillow, and I just had to sit back down at the computer.

    Shoshidge, you fucking nitwit, I AM a submissive. As I posted above. Go read the post. I’ll fucking wait. Also FEMALE, fuckhead. Consensual sex? STILL A FUCKING YES/NO PROPOSITION. Submissives? WE CAN BE RAPED. It happened to me, five times in fact, once by a dominant I trusted more than I have ever trusted any other person in the world, and largely because of bullshit exactly like you’re spewing, it fucking destroyed me. You are a privilege-blinded, disgusting fucking monster because you feel the need to pretend that experiences you haven’t had and lives you haven’t lived can just be pulled out in support of your argument from your position of utter fucking ignorance on the subject. We are real fucking people, not fucking pawns for your argument. Get the fuck out of here.

  137. shoshidge says

    Someone earlier mentioned ’50 shades of grey’.
    I haven’t read it and I don’t intend to, but I have been told that it is a work of BDSM literary erotica written by a woman, originally posted as a Twilight fanfic on a website dominated by women who loved it so much that they encouraged the author to have it published as a series of novels, which are now skyrocketing to the top of bestseller list by their largely female readership.
    In a recent podcast, Dan Savage,(of whom I am a fan), speculated that a possible reason for its success was that its downloadable format made it possible for people to get the book without the embarassment of having to look the bookstore teller in the eye when purchasing it.
    Which suggests that the interest in BDSM among women has been historically underestimated.

  138. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    WILL YOU GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE WITH YOUR FUCKING BULLSHIT? CONSENSUAL BDSM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FUCKING RAPE!

  139. John Morales says

    shoshidge:

    If Cipher were still here I would ask him what I have said indicated I was ‘privilege blinded’?
    Anyone elso want to educate me?

    Her, everything you’ve written, and no-one wants you around here respectively, much less to educate you so clearly against your wishes and your dimness.

    (Try your inquisitiveness elsewhere)

    What do you say to women with submissive tendencies? who want to be sexually humiliated? and who aren’t the victims of previous sexual abuse? beacuse they are out there. I’ve met a few and the encounters left me confused as hell, and they make liars out of those who claim that consensual sex is always a simple yes/no proposition

    You’re Hoggling; you belong in TZT.

  140. says

    Cipher:

    We are real fucking people, not fucking pawns for your argument.

    QFMFT.

    I’ll add this, shoshidge, you piece of sludge – stop assuming. You just keep getting more disgusting. People’s sexual orientation is not some whim, it’s not something which is done because someone is young and wanting to be hip.

    I’m 54, bisexual and definitely not vanilla. You can take every single one of your asshole assumptions and shove them up your ass where your head happens to be. One more time: shut the fuck up.

  141. theophontes (坏蛋) says

    @ shoshidge

    [Q:]

    If Cipher were still here I would ask him what I have said indicated I was ‘privilege blinded’?

    [A:]

    him

    (Oh, you appreciated the response, therefore …) *facepalm*

    [“rape” fantasy] they make liars out of those who claim that consensual sex is always a simple yes/no proposition

    Spoken like a true rape apologist.

    @ Beatrice

    This.

  142. Tethys says

    interest in BDSM among women

    I must admit that right now I am having a very nice fantasy about punching sloshidge in the taint.

  143. drbunsen le savant fou says

    shoshidge, fuck off. You are doing actual harm to real people here. If you can’t fuck off, shut the fuck up and read – for comprehension. But most importantly, SHUT. THE FUCK. UP.

    PZ – +1 on the ban/TZT votes for this particular numpty.

  144. says

    …Christ, dude. Stop ignoring that you’re insulting and hurting real people here. Cipher said it best. Shut up and fucking listen already!

    Oh, and all this “rape fantasy”/BDSM bullshit? Oh, look, my hounds are running off the road… and they’re bringing back a big fat red herring!

  145. shoshidge says

    Cipher, I know the difference between rape and fantasy, and I know that among seasoned, ethical practitioners of BDSM, these things are usually approached considerately.

    I’m sorry your dominant took advantage of you.

    When I was dealing with these sorts of conflicts in my early 20’s it was with girls who didn’t know what they wanted yet or felt too inhibited to spell it out, I was told I wasn’t being rough enough more than once, how could I be expected to be able to intuit those limits in the heat of the moment as an inexperienced, callow college boy?
    As it happened, I was one of the nicer ones, I erred on the side of caution and didn’t rape anybody.
    I’ve never raped anybody
    I’ve never advocated the rape of anybody.
    I made a comment which came to me mostly due to the scene of the crimes in question in relation to the cliche of prison rape,(showers),if Sandusky raped them in the garden shed my comment would’ve been unremarkable.
    Or maybe not, I still would’ve expressed some hostile vibes towards him,(throw him under a bus or some such comment).
    And I would still be unrepentant

  146. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    Lol, submissives are just soooooooo confusing, how is anyone supposed to figure out the limits, it’s sooooo easy to accidentally rape somebody, women just don’t know what they waaaant
    Spare us your shit and get the fuck out of here, shoshidge. Nobody wants to hear it.

  147. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    I just need to clarify in case you’re confused.
    Because submissives, you know.
    So confusing.
    When I say get the fuck out of here, I mean get the fuck out of here. Stop pontificating from a position of ignorance. Stop posting inane ramblings. Stop fake-sympathizing. Stop backpedaling. Stop posting. Stop.

    Go the fuck away.

  148. says

    Comment by shoshidge blocked. [unkill]​[show comment]

    Hey, Fuckwit! Here’s a clue: shut the fuck up = stop posting. Just in case, because you’re both hard of thinking as well as hard of reading:

    shut the fuck up = stop posting.
    shut the fuck up = stop posting.
    shut the fuck up = stop posting.
    shut the fuck up = stop posting.
    shut the fuck up = stop posting.
    shut the fuck up = stop posting.
    shut the fuck up = stop posting.
    shut the fuck up = stop posting.
    shut the fuck up = stop posting.
    shut the fuck up = stop posting.

    SHUT THE FUCK UP, STOP POSTING.

  149. Walton says

    I made a comment which came to me mostly due to the scene of the crimes in question in relation to the cliche of prison rape,(showers),if Sandusky raped them in the garden shed my comment would’ve been unremarkable.
    Or maybe not, I still would’ve expressed some hostile vibes towards him,(throw him under a bus or some such comment).
    And I would still be unrepentant

    It wasn’t funny or clever. Your comment came across as condoning prison rape. I don’t know how else you expected people to interpret it.

    I am strongly opposed to the taking of any kind of violent revenge on perpetrators of crimes – be it rape, torture or the death penalty. Supporting such things makes you no different from the perpetrators themselves. We can, and should, be better than that.

  150. Beatrice says

    I’ve never advocated the rape of anybody.

    Yes you have:

    It’s times like this when part of me hopes there is some truth to those stories about prison showers

    Likewise, because I admitted to an urge to see Sandusky fallen upon by a group of sadistic convicts, that doesn’t mean that I condone rape

    What makes you even more repugnant (yes, that’s possible) is that you tried to co-opt experiences of victims right on this thread to make excuses for yourself. Then you co-opt experiences of people in BDSM community (and generally people who like their sex on the rough or kinky side) in order to make excuses for yourself.

    You tried to make it as if people who attacked you were somehow attacking those who are into BDSM. Muddying the waters didn’t work. What next? Better fuck off.

  151. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    Also, your latest spewing of twaddle didn’t actually address any of the things I said to you. Except that you noticed I had a bad dominant, which, you know, great. Did you fail to see the part where the arguments you’re making are directly harmful and compounded the trauma I experienced? The bullshit about how consent isn’t simple, how it isn’t a yes/no thing, and how submissives by existing muddy the waters? It took me years, years during which I was continuously abused and repeatedly raped and blamed myself for all of it, to understand that rape and abuse were still wrong if they happened to me, even though I was a submissive. Years. It took me a great deal of horrible psychological pain to understand that I did not bring my last rape on myself by having dominance fantasies, and that it didn’t mean I subconsciously “liked it” and therefore deserved it. That’s the result of your pathetic attempt to blur the lines between the “dark urge” to engage in consensual BDSM and the “dark urge” to see someone raped.
    How about the part where our experiences aren’t yours to make shitty, vile arguments with? How about the part where you’re clearly ignorant of what our experiences are, and it’s incredibly arrogant to try to drag them into the discussion with no regard for that fact?

  152. drbunsen le savant fou says

    Hey sausage, here’s a handy tip: if you honestly think consent isn’t a black/white, yes/no thing – STAY THE FUCK AWAY FROM SUBSespecially the confused ones. Shit, stay the fuck away from BDSM culture. Or, you know, people. That works too.

    Also, FUCK OFF.

  153. N.P. says

    As for ‘rape culture’, I’m still trying to figure out what that is and how I’m contributing to it, I’m inclined to think it’s BS

    how could I be expected to be able to intuit those limits in the heat of the moment as an inexperienced, callow college boy?

    A perfect storm of irony and complete fucking stupidity.

  154. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

    sho’hides, shitstain extraordinaire from a common asshole

    I’ve read some of what google has to offer on the topic of rape culture and I still don’t know how it applies to me or my words.
    I also still don’t know what it has to do with first world western culture where it is widely accepted that, next to outright murder, rape is the worst thing you can do to a person.

    {Game of Thrones}

    May the Others take you and blessed be the fire that burns when you rise again.

    {/Game of Thrones}

    Nobody wants to see anyone they love get raped.
    (Nobody sane).
    Nobody approves of strangers getting raped.

    Bullshit. You clearly approve of strangers getting raped, evidence is in your first comment and the Grand Canyon sized trench you dug to defend it. You’re going to bury yourself alive in there.

    All of those girls who call or write to Dan Savage talking about their rape fantasies are worried that their friends will think they’re nuts or their boyfriends will get thrown in prison for trying to indulge their kinks, because fantasizing about rape is evidence that you are a horrible person and a bad feminist…
    Are they guilty of promoting rape culture?

    Maybe the point wouldn’t sail so far above your head, if your head wasn’t stuck up your ass.

    My first girlfriend in junior high school had a thing for being tied up. At 14, it wasn’t my idea, but I played along and as a result, the first pair of tits I felt belonged to an underage girl who was loosely and ineptly bound with a pair of nylon stockings by the wrist…at her insistence.
    We are still friends, she is still into bondage and not ashamed of the fact and she describes herself as a feminist.

    Way TMI. Lots of bragging and trying to prove his credibility. (fails miserably on that note)

    Note this use of “girl” and “first felt tits”

    Strawman Argument to boot. Feminists are sex positive and don’t give a shit what you’re into as long as it’s consensual. I hate this stupid stereotype that feminists are so sexual repressed, prudes and don’t approve of such sex acts. It’s so fucking false.

    Why are you bring up consensual sex acts in a discussion about your defense of approving and hoping for prison rape as punishment?

    Do you not see how it’s strikingly similar to the way rapists and rape apologists blame the victim saying their rape was punishment for being out late/dressing like that/existing? Why! It’s like you are doing the same thing, you worthless rape apologist.

    I am not into BDSM myself, or polyamory, or any of the other saucy goings on which are popular with the hip kids today, but I defend the idea that being honest about your dark side, even when it conflicts with your politics, is a good thing, it’s a sign of progress, it is a sign that we are moving beyond rape culture, because the taboo has been broken and we can express our inner thoughts and desires without being shouted down by a bunch of hypocrites and prudes.

    BDSM and polyamory are NOT “dark” things, are NOT a person’s “dark” side and doesn’t fucking conflict at all with feminism. And you have the audacity to talk about hypocrites and prudes? Why are you shaming those who have different kinks by othering it, claiming it’s a bad thing on a person’s dark side and equating it with rape?

    You are such a horrid person, bereft of empathy and intellect, actively hurting people in this thread while still claiming to be on our side.

    You aren’t a fucking ally. You are not helping.

    There’s. So. Much. Wrong. With. You.

  155. shoshidge says

    My sympathy is sincere for what it’s worth.
    And yes, submissives are confusing when they don’t know they are submissives, and are not explicit about what they want, things are changing for the better in that regard thankfully, my experiences were 20 years ago, maybe it was different then.

    It’s absurd for any of you suggest that i’ve been deliberstely hurtful towards those of you who have been raped, I don’t know any of you,(I don’t think so anyway), and am not privy to your details, my comments have been generalized as much as possible.

    I still maintain, that my initial comment was not meant as a joke and not worded like one, and the more I think about it, PZ’s comment about the Catholic priests could qualify as a rape joke under your criteria, so unless you want to start heaping scorn on him, this whole conversation seems like an absurd case of comical oversensitivity.
    I have not asserted anything about human sexuality that you would not find in a Susie Bright or Dan Savage column, I believe in sexual equality and liberty ,if you believe otherwise, than that has more to do with your willfully pessimistic interpretation of my words.

    One final thing before I go to bed, I really tried not to make any unininformed assumptions about any of you, but y’all sure had me figured out, based on little information and a heap of stereotypes and assumptions.
    hypocrites

  156. fallingwhale says

    For those wishing it as poetic justice remember there are far more creative places that can be taken, none of which need to contain rape. Sterilized with a basketball is a nice one.

  157. Agent Silversmith, Feathered Patella Association says

    What a stupendous feat of digging, shoshidge. You must be the first person to directly see the earth’s core. Tell us what it looks like.

    Nah, on second thoughts, just fuck off and stay gone.

  158. says

    fallingwhale:

    For those wishing it as poetic justice remember there are far more creative places that can be taken, none of which need to contain rape. Sterilized with a basketball is a nice one.

    Why on earth it entered your head that this was in any way helpful, I don’t know. It certainly would have been better if it had stayed in your head, unposted.

    Christ.

  159. Nightjar says

    I still maintain, that my initial comment was not meant as a joke and not worded like one

    Doesn’t fucking matter. You said you were hoping someone got raped. Whether you intended people to laugh or not is really not the point, you see.

  160. Beatrice says

    shoshidge,

    You started your bullshit about BDSM which had nothing, NOTHING to do with this thread’s topic. Don’t play the innocent victim of bad internet meanies now. You wrote something very stupid and then tried to make excuses by being even more stupid.

    May you wake up with a functional conscience tomorrow.

  161. beatnikhusker says

    PZ… Am I allowed to talk about “tickle fights” with convicted felons? Because Jerry’s got plenty of those coming his way.

  162. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

    sho’hides, shitstain extraordinaire from a common asshole

    My sympathy is sincere for what it’s worth.

    I’m not buying it. It’s not worth shit. Shit seems to be all you are and have though.

    And yes, submissives are confusing when they don’t know they are submissives, and are not explicit about what they want, things are changing for the better in that regard thankfully, my experiences were 20 years ago, maybe it was different then.

    Wait, who’s confused here? Are you blaming the young women you were with for being inexperienced?
    Maybe it would help if asshole like you didn’t muddy the waters with your bullshit. Like the fact that rape fantasies don’t fucking exist, and that there is nothing wrong with a kink as long as it’s consensual. YOU are the one blaming, shaming and othering those with different kinks than you. Shut the fuck up and listen for once.

    It’s absurd for any of you suggest that i’ve been deliberstely hurtful towards those of you who have been raped, I don’t know any of you,(I don’t think so anyway), and am not privy to your details, my comments have been generalized as much as possible.

    INTENT IS NOT MAGIC. Doesn’t fucking matter if it was intentional or not. Of course it’s personal, when you are are defending and approving of rape. Everyone should take that personally! Does it really surprise you rape victims like me, take it especially hard due to all the shit we take from this rape culture? Yes, you used generalized terms and with them, insulted and hurt everyone that fits in that generalization.

    I still maintain, that my initial comment was not meant as a joke and not worded like one, and the more I think about it, PZ’s comment about the Catholic priests could qualify as a rape joke under your criteria, so unless you want to start heaping scorn on him, this whole conversation seems like an absurd case of comical oversensitivity.

    It wasn’t a fucking joke. He’s saying “Well, we got one. Now look over there, *points at Vatican*, they shield child rapists and no one goes after them. We totally should arrest them instead of having child rapists get away with their crimes free to hurt more children!”

    It’s so fucking telling that you can’t tell the difference.

    Nice going on being dismissing and patronizing. That will surely win your friends and make your claim true. You fucking moron.

  163. Beatrice says

    Wait, I thought the excuse was that it was a joke. I mean, the shithead said that it wasn’t a joke, but what he says his words mean is often different than what they mean.

    I made a comment which came to me mostly due to the scene of the crimes in question in relation to the cliche of prison rape,(showers),if Sandusky raped them in the garden shed my comment would’ve been unremarkable.

    …because that was the point of the joke.

  164. says

    PZ… Am I allowed to talk about “tickle fights” with convicted felons? Because Jerry’s got plenty of those coming his way.

    Ugh. Here’s hoping a certain hammer hits you squarely on the nym.

  165. Tethys says

    It’s absurd for any of you suggest that i’ve been deliberstely hurtful

    Are you claiming that you have been posting to this thread accidentally?

    A person who continues for seven fucking hours to hurtfully pontificate to people, after specifically being asked to stop, is truly a piece of human excrement

  166. throwaway says

    before I go to bed

    It’s times like this that I’m resentful of you having the possibility of nice dreams after your having evoked reminders of living nightmares upon us. You callous dipshit.

  167. shoshidge says

    uh, ok one more…
    JAL, I won’t be able to sleep unless I address some of the stuff you said.

    There is, in my opinion a lot of darkness involved with BDSM, of course, wanting to give your partner pleasure is not a dark impulse.
    But, wanting to see your partner immobilized, struggling, and then flogging them perhaps, becoming sexually aroused at the sight of their powerlessness.
    Breathplay? Bloodplay? Watersports?
    Sorry, that’s pretty fuckin’ dark.
    And totally fine in my book if it’s what you want.
    I included polyamory not because I think it’s dark but because it is an increasingly popular activity which was once considered edgy but is becoming less so, sorry for the confusion there
    You want to pull logical fallacies on me? (strawman?)
    How about no true scotsman?(Yeah but it’s not dark when I do it!)

    For the record, I wasn’t the one who brought up consensual sex acts as a topic for discussion,that was Theophontes asking me a condescendingly rhetorical question.

  168. DLC says

    Holy shit. Shosige or whatafuckever your nym is supposed to be:
    Dude, first motherfucking rule of holes you bloody vacuum-head!

    Stop Fucking Digging!

    Seriously. You’re in a hole, you are aware that you are in a hole, someone took the shovel away from you, but you still keep fucking digging.

  169. 'Tis Himself says

    My sympathy is sincere for what it’s worth.

    It isn’t worth shit because you’re so obviously insincere about your sympathy. If you were sympathetic about rape victims then you wouldn’t have advocated that Sandusky get raped and repeatedly justified that advocation.

    I won’t tell you to fuck off and die, but beat off and become seriously ill.

  170. grumpyoldfart says

    My prediction:
    Sandusky will complain of heart trouble and his lawyer will beg for home detention.

  171. Nightjar says

    Am I allowed to talk about “tickle fights” with convicted felons?

    Oh, FFS. What the hell is wrong with you?

  172. says

    throwaway:

    It’s times like this that I’m resentful of you having the possibility of nice dreams after your having evoked reminders of living nightmares upon us.

    No shit. I was planning on getting to bed soon, but thanks to the fuckwit who will not shut the fuck up, I have flashbacks, my PTSD is firing on all cylinders and I can kiss off getting any sleep for next day or two.

  173. Beatrice says

    For the record, I wasn’t the one who brought up consensual sex acts as a topic for discussion,that was Theophontes asking me a condescendingly rhetorical question.

    Which somehow forced you to compare consensual kinky practices to rape apologia and then dig further by writing about confused submissives and more. So much more bullshit.

    Take some fucking responsibility for your own words.

    And let me curse you again: May you wake up with a functional conscience tomorrow.

  174. N.P. says

    JAL, I won’t be able to sleep unless I address some of the stuff you said.

    And you will now that you have??

  175. Tethys says

    … Am I allowed to talk about “tickle fights” with convicted felons?

    NO.what.the.fuck.is.wrong.with.you.shit.for.brains?

  176. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

    Sorry, that’s pretty fuckin’ dark.

    TO YOU. In your stupid clueless judgmental prudish opinion. As someone who has such a kink, it’s NOT fucking dark! It’s consensual, enjoyable and NOT something that should be shamed. But you fucking continue to do so while in a thread about RAPE VICTIMS.

    How about no true scotsman?(Yeah but it’s not dark when I do it!)

    I’m saying it’s not dark AT ALL. You are the one who bragged about the “girls” you had and how it was totes okay then.

    For the record, I wasn’t the one who brought up consensual sex acts as a topic for discussion,that was Theophontes asking me a condescendingly rhetorical question.

    You brought up rape fantasies in #106

    theophontes in #111 asked if you knew what consensual sex is.

    Because if you knew the answer to that question, you should know that it’s not possible to have a rape fantasy.

    You decided to answer with bragging about your young adventures with inexperienced “girls” and talking about the “first fondled tits”.

    How on earth is that an appropriate response?

    Then you continued to dig, defend and lie about what you said.

    Go fuck off you worthless piece of shit and take a porcupine for your pleasure. You don’t know what you are talking about. You are talking down and mansplaining to rape victims you assclod.
    ————————
    Just ban him or containment to TZT. It’s not right to make this about him and take away from the actual rape victims here.

    (I shall also try to stop responding to this shitstain)

  177. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

    Fuck the top got cut off of my comment.

    shitstain on the underwear of life

    JAL, I won’t be able to sleep unless I address some of the stuff you said.

    GOOD. Lose some fucking sleep. I’m not getting any because of your bullshit triggering me.

    You shouldn’t even be able to live with yourself after the shit you pulled in this thread.

  178. Agent Silversmith, Feathered Patella Association says

    beatnikhusker. Reading comprehension’s not your strong point, is it?

    Shidgebag: You’re not the first person here to make a prison rape joke. But I don’t recall a more strenuous effort to subsequently notpologize and blame everyone else but yourself for your attitude. How many more scapegoats are you going to fling crap over before your finger points at the right target, and nowhere else?

  179. says

    Agent Silversmith:

    How many more scapegoats are you going to fling crap over

    Shofullofshit is not only flinging crap over scapegoats, he’s stuffing them full of straw for a Goats on Fire! bonfire. It’s a disgusting performance.

  180. demonax says

    Do all American students appreciate sport to the extent of rioting in support of their coaches?

  181. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

    Do all American students appreciate sport to the extent of rioting in support of their coaches?

    {Obvious Answers to Stupid Questions}

    No.

  182. says

    Do all American students appreciate sport to the extent of rioting in support of their coaches?

    Oh yeah, of course they do, because every one knows every single American is just a dumbfuck who is completely absorbed in sports to the exclusion of all else.

    Idiot.

  183. skepticallydenpa says

    I don’t venture into the comments too often, but when I do I’m often appalled/disheartened by the comments of the few and encouraged by the army of reason that follows.

    shoshidge: Yes, it is only human to desire retribution for heinous acts. But it is both vile and irrational. Your unwillingness to acknowledge that fact, while instead defending it under terms such as ‘other people are doing it’* and ‘it was an impulse thought’*, does nothing to correct this. Rather than perpetuating such thoughts, we should all work to suppress them in favor of more healthy cognitive ejaculations.

    But, I am not without fault here. Sometime, last year I believe, I made what I thought was a clever analogy comparing the pharyngulating of polls to the illustrated acts of tentacle rape. I’ve exposed my ignorance. I apologize for my insensitivity. And to make amends, I promise to educate myself on issues of rape culture and strive to educate others.

    *not actual quotes

  184. Tony... therefore God says

    beatnikhusker:

    PZ… Am I allowed to talk about “tickle fights” with convicted felons? Because Jerry’s got plenty of those coming his way.

    Did you think you were being clever?
    You’re making light of rape.
    Why would you think that’s ok?

  185. says

    I personally believe that punishment should be delivered for purely practical reasons, i.e.:

    1) To teach the perpetrator that what he or she did is wrong, and not to reoffend;
    2) To protect others from being victims of the perpetrator due to his or her being incarcerated;
    3) To teach others by example that they would be punished similarly should they commit the same crime.

    Punishing people “because they deserve it” is a very primitive human concept that has no place in a civilised society. The Christian doctrine of Hell is all about this. It makes no difference if the damned person sent there is remorseful and will vow not to reoffend – he or she will be tortured eternally regardless. The fact that the person is in Hell will not prevent others from being harmed by him or her any more than his or her being sent to Heaven. It will also not teach potential offenders by example that they will be similarly punished, since we have no evidence that Hell exists anyway.

    We need to realise that emotions can be powerful and can drive people to do or support things that are really unjust (e.g. wishing that Jerry Sandusky gets raped). I sympathise with victims of violent crime and can understand their lust for revenge. But I urge them to use their intellect, rather than their emotions, to judge what punishment is appropriate for the offender.

  186. echidna says

    Caine, consider the possibility that the scumbag is out to induce PTSD in rape victims, and is enjoying every second of it. Clueless is one thing, persistently clueless another, but this, IMNSHO, is going beyond.

  187. Tony... therefore God says

    shoshidge:
    and the more I think about it, PZ’s comment about the Catholic priests could qualify as a rape joke under your criteria,

    Yes, because PZ making a joke about Catholic priests being relocated by the Church to protect them from harm–which is not rape–is somehow equal to your comment about a part of you hoping for Sandusky to be raped.
    So now ‘not rape’ = rape to you? You don’t understand rape culture and now it’s clear you don’t understand rape. Why do you keep talking instead of listening and reading for comprehension?
    I’ve just sat here and read through every comment in this thread. You’ve dug yourself a hole and you continue to do so. As if that weren’t enough, you’ve also brought back memories of a traumatic experience to rape survivors. I would advise you to apologize, but until you educate yourself, it wouldn’t be sincere. So for now
    Shut The Fuck Up & Get The Fuck Out

  188. imthegenieicandoanything says

    I won’t be reading any other comments on this one, since the celebration that breaks out is nearly 1% as horrible as anyone who sympathizes with this human monster – and that 1% is far, far too disgusting for me.

    It’s the victums who we need to consider, and how to make sure this doesn’t happen again. (And no doubt many here will be making these imporatant points.)

    Further, THIS guy ISN’T dead, yet. I have no plans to forgive and forget.

    The more alarmingly lynch-mobbish faction here can take their tar, feathers, torches, and ropes somewhere else.

  189. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

    We need to realise that emotions can be powerful and can drive people to do or support things that are really unjust (e.g. wishing that Jerry Sandusky gets raped). I sympathise with victims of violent crime and can understand their lust for revenge. But I urge them to use their intellect, rather than their emotions, to judge what punishment is appropriate for the offender.

    Condescending much?

    Did you read the thread? It’s not the victims calling for revenge rape. Rape victims have come out against this notion.

    It’s the scumbag rape apologists that want to use rape as punishment.

    Do keep up.

  190. lexie says

    That’s about as ridiculous as saying all Chinese are good at maths. The idea that all anyone likes/thinks anything is frankly silly. All groups of people are diverse (to varying extents) and you can probably find exceptions to all generalizations.

    I just thought I’d add that I’m not American.

    To shoshidge, stop digging and go off and think about what has been said to you because here are amazing women who have been raped and don’t desire to have anyone at all go through what they have been through because no one should be arbiter of who is or isn’t deserving of violation. No one ever deserves to be raped these are actual victims telling you this. Also don’t judge other people’s sex lives, dark is rape, abuse, murder, torture or any of the other things that people do to deliberately hurt other people. Dark is not consensual things which adults do that make them happy and hurt no one.

  191. says

    Jebus fucking christ. I just got up & discover shoshidge has been cluelessly shitting over this thread all night long. I am so disgusted at his amoral defense of the indefensible that I was just going to ban him, but I see people with more mercy calling for quarantine…OK. Shoshidge, you nasty stupid piece of shit, you may only post to TZT from now on. Nowhere else. Don’t even acknowledge it here: one more word from you tainting any other thread, and you’re out for good.

  192. Tony... therefore God says

    Gah! I fucked that up.

    Yes, because PZ making a commentjoke about Catholic priests being relocated by the Church to protect them from harm–which is not rape–is somehow equal to your comment about a part of you hoping for Sandusky to be raped.

  193. lexie says

    Oh and randominternetstranger hugs to Caine, JAL and anyone else on this thread (or reading it) who is also now thinking about things that they don’t want to.

  194. 'Tis Himself says

    I see people with more mercy calling for quarantine…OK. Shoshidge, you nasty stupid piece of shit, you may only post to TZT from now on. Nowhere else.

    Blesséd be PZ (the peace of Darwin be upon him), the compassionate, the merciful.

  195. lexie says

    I need to apologize before everyone gets rightfully angry with me for making a stupid comment, so I’m sorry. I would like to edit it to sympathies but I’m really genuinely sorry to anyone who read it and is now upset.

  196. says

    Echidna:

    Caine, consider the possibility that the scumbag is out to induce PTSD in rape victims, and is enjoying every second of it. Clueless is one thing, persistently clueless another, but this, IMNSHO, is going beyond.

    It’s now been considered. I sincerely hope you’re wrong. If you aren’t, I don’t even have words.

    Lexie, hugs accepted, with thanks.

    PZ, thank you.

    Scottjordan:

    I sympathise with victims of violent crime and can understand their lust for revenge.

    Apparently, you were in such a rush to appear superior, you couldn’t bother to comprehend a single fucking thing. If you had read for comprehension, you’d see that not one single victim of violent crime had a “lust for revenge” you fucking asshole. We’re the ones decrying that sort of shit. Thanks for nothing.

  197. echidna says

    Caine, it’s not often I say this, but I hope I’m wrong too. Clueless and persistent would be much better. I wasn’t game to offer hugs before, but, encouraged by your response to Lexie, I’ve got a non-exclusive virtual hug on offer to you, JAL and others who might wish it.

  198. says

    echidna:

    I wasn’t game to offer hugs before, but, encouraged by your response to Lexie, I’ve got a non-exclusive virtual hug on offer to you, JAL and others who might wish it.

    ♥ Thank you.

  199. says

    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness @#214

    Condescending much?

    Did you read the thread? It’s not the victims calling for revenge rape. Rape victims have come out against this notion.

    It’s the scumbag rape apologists that want to use rape as punishment.

    Do keep up.

    Sorry JAL – I didn’t mean to come across as condescending. I have noticed that rape victims on this thread have said that they don’t wish to viciously draw and quater their attackers, but would prefer that they would instead be punished to the full extent of the law. This is what I support.

    I do believe that anyone who expresses sentiment that he or she would like someone to be raped as punishment for raping any number of people is total filth.

  200. says

    Scottjordan:

    I sympathise with victims of violent crime and can understand their lust for revenge.

    I have no lust for revenge. In the midst of being attacked and having hands wrapped around my throat, I thought, “Well, there’s no negotiating now. I have to kill this hipster rapist douchebag if that’s what it takes.” I fought back and once I could get away, I did. Other people’s revenge fantasies made me feel like I was a failure not having hurt him more than I had to (as if a victim of such a crime really needs another thing to feel bad about), but I didn’t want to see a fellow human being suffering. Not even when that fellow human being had assaulted me and attempted to murder me.

    Even knowing someone who has hurt me is in prison doesn’t give me pleasure, because I don’t think it’s doing much good except for (hopefully) keeping him from hurting others.

    The only ill I wish Sandusky is the denial of access to victims.

  201. concernedjoe says

    I am very happy and relieved that (1) JS will be out of play and unable to realize this particular psychosis in any foreseeable future and (2) his victims may have same measure of comfort knowing that finally society gave them the voice and the power that was so long denied them.

    Yes I am very glad and much relieved that Jerry S was convicted and that he will (I assume) be under control for the rest of his life. I applaud the prosecution, their witnesses, and certainly the jury.

    Having said that I add that while I believe JS is guilty of these offenses for sure, and probably many others yet to reach the light of day, I do feel that he too is a victim… let me explain.

    A victim of his brain’s own unique morphology, his programing, and of the societal inadequacy in addressing things more honestly, scientifically, and less viscerally.

    It is all a matter of chemistry, physics, information, and programing. It is all stimuli and reactions. We don’t have freewill as it reads in the traditional sin paradigm.

    The older I get – the more I see – the more I am convinced of this: people can be factually guilty (say of an offense, or a behavior, or of a characteristic), but they are not really responsible. No, they are what they are, thus they do what they do. Evil people? Evil cobras?

    For me at least having this very non-religious view of the phenomena makes life seem much less cruel, and puts things in a more effective (relative to “cures”) perspective and paradigm. It makes me (again, at least me) less visceral and more analytical – and understanding. It makes me more hopeful and sure that someday our future will come to a more peaceful existence.

    JS is beyond much help – he has to be contained – probably forever. But I really don’t think – even though I viscerally know I want it – that he (or any other criminal) should be punished. That is a a religious meme – the whole sin/judgement/punishment paradigm – to which I do not subscribe.

    To me it is no different than this scenario:

    Lion charges in earnest .. you shoot to kill – seems like no other choice at the time. Cannot fault your action – suspect others here are of similar mind – self-defense OK.

    If you however somehow could incapacitate that lion but then proceeded to torture it physically and mentally for the offense of attacking you.. well I suspect that lots of us here would say you are one sick bastard.

    Those that really hope JS gets his in the shower should take note.

  202. says

    Apparently, you were in such a rush to appear superior, you couldn’t bother to comprehend a single fucking thing. If you had read for comprehension, you’d see that not one single victim of violent crime had a “lust for revenge” you fucking asshole. We’re the ones decrying that sort of shit. Thanks for nothing.

    Sorry Caine, I take back that “lust for revenge” comment – that was stupid of me… You’re right – I have noticed that you and several others have not supported that notion in any way.

    Again, sorry.

  203. says

    You’re welcome, Caine. :3

    I know you’ve been a victim of violent crime, and I have not, so I am in no position to say what it feels like.

  204. echidna says

    ConcernedJoe,
    I’m not a rape victim, but I’ve got enough trauma in my past to tell you that you’re just not helping.
    You are comparing Sandusky’s level of responsibility to that of a cat (albeit a large one). Meanwhile, rape victims are constantly told they are responsible for the attacks made on them.

    Sandusky and those in authority who protected him bear responsibility. Why would you suggest anything different? He wasn’t insane.

  205. drbunsen le savant fou says

    Christ, concernedjoe, what a pile of dogshit.

    Sandusky is not a fucking lion – he’s a conscious human being, part of the society of human beings that has developed a linguistic culture sophisticated enough to carry complex concepts such as – now, bear with me here – “Whatever your ‘programmed’ urges, DON’T RAPE PEOPLE, YOU ASSHOLE.”

  206. Beatrice says

    I applaud the prosecution, their witnesses, and certainly the jury.

    Why? It’s not like they have free will, their decision was predetermined by their brains’ morphology, by all their past experiences that form and influence them.

    (Ok, that was trolling. I’m sorry. I know I shouldn’t have done it, but … free will. Again. My brain was screaming Noooooo! It couldn’t help itself, past experience has made that its reflexive reaction.)

  207. drbunsen le savant fou says

    echidna:

    He wasn’t insane.

    Yeah, it was concernedtroll’s abuse of the word “psychosis” in hir first sentence that tipped me off we were setting sail for Fail Island.

    Being a rapist is not a psychosis, asshole.

  208. sc_daf555bf3249c23d49bad8f71d730018 says

    I get no schadenfruede out of all this, no, not a bit of it. This is a sad story with a sad ending. It’s an indictment of our society from start to finish. It’s a good thing the man was caught and can do this no more, but he should have been found out many years ago. Two of my brothers-in-law are Penn State grads and they are shaken to their cores over this. They feel shame and fury and a profound sense of betrayal. And lo the person who brings the subject up in their presence! The collateral damage extends far and wide. But, I know how our myopic society works — Sandusky will rot in prison and before long things will return to ‘normal.’ Meaning kids will be raped again someplace and people who should recognize the signs will do nothing. God, it’s tough being human!

  209. drbunsen le savant fou says

    Beatrice, I am unavoidably predestined to ♥ you for #234 :)

  210. terryg says

    Caine, Cipher, Amphiox et al: (there’s a dozen or more Pharyngulae (?) who fit this category, you know who you are) – thank you so very, very much for the incredible amount of work you put in to civilising humanity.

    It works. It helps.

    I thought I had a grasp of privilege etc., until I demonstrated my asshattery on a thread a year or so ago. this led me to STFU and read harder. ElevatorGate *really* opened my eyes. Schrodingers rapist was dead easy to grok, but a post by John Morales led to some serious introspection and a hefty dose of black dog – realising one is in fact a rapist (the whiny insistent pestering boyfriend type) was not a pleasant experience. Ashamed and disgusted barely scratches the surface of the revulsion I feel toward my own behaviour – and deservedly so. I can, will and MUST do better.

    you folk have opened my eyes to feminism (the slaps to the back of the head were key). and wow. just wow. I feel like a character from John Carpenters “They Live” – you have given me a glimpse through the lens of Feminism, and the world it reveals is fucking horrendous, but nevertheless real. its not so much a useful tool as a priceless gift, and I am grateful for it. The journey from the dark side is well underway…..

  211. Tethys says

    Evil people? Evil cobras?

    This is a horrible analogy. The cobra is a predator who needs to eat in order to survive. A rapist is a sexual predator who is making a conscious decision to hurt people.

    These two things are in no way equivalent.

  212. says

    ScottJordan:

    I know you’ve been a victim of violent crime, and I have not, so I am in no position to say what it feels like.

    What I can say is that it changes you. It changes your life, it changes everything. I would like to point out that, in the case of rape, it does not need to be physically violent to be utterly devastating. Stranger rape grabs all the media attention, however, in comparison to acquaintance rapes, date rapes and rapes by family members or family friends, they make up a small number.

    I’d also like to point out that much of mental and emotional damage results from the reactions of family, friends, law enforcement and those involved in legal prosecution.

    Everyone has the opportunity to educate themselves about rape, especially if they have access to the ‘net. The information is there. A lot of victims are willing to discuss what happened to them, which is a very good way to learn.

    One thing that tends to be consistently ignored is that rape victims get an automatic life sentence. You can never have your life back, you have to live with the fallout and the devastation every day. You have to deal with feelings of guilt and shame. You have to deal with so very much.

    Many of us also get to deal with decades worth of parole hearings. That is seriously not fun and it does not fucking help. Three women survived the man who raped me. I’m one of them. It’s been 38 years since he was convicted and 38 years of agonizing parole hearings for me, the other survivors and the families of all those he murdered. He cannot be allowed to live outside a cage, ever. He stated that if he ever got out, he would continue to rape and he would make sure to never leave anyone alive. It would be really nice if we could put that behind us, but we can’t. Not as long as he’s alive and there are parole hearings.

    That’s just my situation. Every person’s situation is different except for the fact that we are all serving a sentence.

  213. says

    terryg:

    It works. It helps.

    Thank you. You have no idea how much this is appreciated and how much it helps us to continue on in the face of idiocy like shoshidge.

  214. Tethys says

    Beatrice

    (Ok, that was trolling. I’m sorry. I know I shouldn’t have done it, but … free will. Again. My brain was screaming Noooooo! It couldn’t help itself, past experience has made that its reflexive reaction.)

    I was screaming right along with you. I am beyond weary of the subject of free will.

  215. concernedjoe says

    Look – address the issue I presented and don’t put words in my mouth.

    The issue of freewill – real or an illusion – is a valid issue for the Freethoughtsblogs I suspect isn’t it.

    As well as the whole – really often tied to religious paradigms – notion of good and evil.

    So in contrast do you think JS through no process or reason outside of his control but only because his own willed “evilness” decided to molest children?

    Look you all can have – rightly or wrongly – intellectual rational reasoned opinions different than mine. Present them. Draw out a reasoned argument in context. I’ll listen.

    But don’t attack me personally – don’t do cheap shot invalidation. That is so unworthy.

    BTW though I am using it in a broad sense and not a legal sense I think the definition of psychosis (A severe mental disorder in which thought and emotions are so impaired that contact is lost with external reality) fits JS to a high degree. In his mind he thinks the external reality is he did no harm but did all good. I guess one can argue pedantically with my use but I my view of it and use of it does not make me irrational or an asshole.

    I am not blaming victims. I am saying there is a dynamic that is very physical that drives behavior. Alternatively is it magical?

    You know – I expected the slings and arrows. The tone and spirit saddens me. Not the disagreement per se.

  216. says

    The issue of freewill – real or an illusion – is a valid issue for the Freethoughtsblogs I suspect isn’t it.

    To its residents, a deterministic universe is indistinguishable from an indeterministic universe. This is no more a valid issue for exploration than a theistic universe that’s indistinguishable from an atheistic universe.

  217. says

    Caine:
    All I can say is I sympathise with all you went through. You really opened my eyes to how traumatic rape is. I never knew how pathetically ignorant I was.

    I also feel the same way about torture in general. The US government likes to fantasise about “hypothetical situations” in which captured insurgents brag about how they know all the details about the latest terrorist attack that they plan to inflict on the US, and won’t reveal the details but upon pain of torture. Sort of things that wouldn’t happen outside of Hollywood movies.

    That sort of shit. Fuck rape, and all other forms of torture.

  218. says

    concernedjoe:

    The issue of freewill – real or an illusion – is a valid issue for the Freethoughtsblogs I suspect isn’t it.

    You suspect wrong. There are a few people here at Pharyngula who don’t seem to tire of pointless free will discussions, while the rest of us, who have been endlessly subjected to said pointless discussions are tired as all fuck of them. If you’re going to persist with this crap, there’s a place for it – take it to TZT, where you’ll find those who are actually interested.

    In case you hadn’t noticed, people in this thread aren’t particularly interested in your brand of stupid, seeing as we’ve been dealing with concentrated stupid all fucking night already. Ta.

  219. says

    ScottJordan:

    Sort of things that wouldn’t happen outside of Hollywood movies.

    Yeah, I know what you mean. That sort of posturing is just what makes me feel nauseous when assclowns like shoshidge come along with the “I hope he gets raped in prison!” crap. It’s always this pointless, macho posturing which is toxic at its core.

  220. concernedjoe says

    #239 “A rapist is a sexual predator who is making a conscious decision to hurt people.”

    That poses the questions: what is conscious decision making? what is the mechanism of “conscious decision making”?

    Re: cobras and humans.. said in context of what defines evil and evil nature. Fundamentally humans and cobras and lions are pretty discerning and complex predators. Humans have a greater capacity to be shaped – civilized to put a word to it – as do lions over cobras. But basic architecture similar – and in no case is it magical or transcend the chemical, physics, information, programing of it all, or the stimulus/reaction model, to go into some mystical realm.

  221. Tony... therefore God says

    concernedjoe:
    This from echidna @232:

    ConcernedJoe,
    I’m not a rape victim, but I’ve got enough trauma in my past to tell you that you’re just not helping.
    You are comparing Sandusky’s level of responsibility to that of a cat (albeit a large one). Meanwhile, rape victims are constantly told they are responsible for the attacks made on them.

    Sandusky and those in authority who protected him bear responsibility. Why would you suggest anything different? He wasn’t insane.

    this from drbunsen @233:

    Christ, concernedjoe, what a pile of dogshit.

    Sandusky is not a fucking lion – he’s a conscious human being, part of the society of human beings that has developed a linguistic culture sophisticated enough to carry complex concepts such as – now, bear with me here – “Whatever your ‘programmed’ urges, DON’T RAPE PEOPLE, YOU ASSHOLE.”

    and this, from Beatrice @234:

    Why? It’s not like they have free will, their decision was predetermined by their brains’ morphology, by all their past experiences that form and influence them.

    all

    …address the issue I presented…

    In the first two, your ridiculous lion analogy is addressed.
    The third response mocked your “he was a rapist, but” argument.
    At this point, I’m puzzled at your lack of comprehension that humans, unlike lions, can make the choice to NOT rape.

  222. concernedjoe says

    So Caine, Fleur du mal I am stupid or wrong to think a biology blog would be interested in the biological mechanism of human nature, consciousness, and how the brain makes decisions?

    Or that that somehow I should know that you know no one here is interested in such discussions?

  223. Tony... therefore God says

    concernedjoe:
    That poses the questions: what is conscious decision making? what is the mechanism of “conscious decision making”?

    Even if that is an interesting question, this isn’t the place for it.

  224. Beatrice says

    That poses the questions: what is conscious decision making? what is the mechanism of “conscious decision making”?

    Did that jury somehow escape the restraints of their brain, which the poor rapist wasn’t able to do?
    If not, then why are applauding the jury for their decision?

  225. Tethys says

    concernedjoe

    This particular thread is about Jerry Sandusky. If you want to discuss your theory of freewill, take to TZT.

    In case you haven’t noticed, this is not an academic exercise for many of the people commenting here. Your insistence on looking at it from your perspective is rude at best.

    I have had a great deal of trauma imposed on me by people who absolutely had the ability to choose not to harm me, so take your fucking argument elsewhere.

  226. says

    Tony:

    Even if that is an interesting question, this isn’t the place for it.

    This ^.

    concernedjoe, take it TZT. Victims have already put up with enough shit in this thread, they don’t need to read your pathetic excuses for Sandusky.

  227. Tony... therefore God says

    concernedjoe:
    So Caine, Fleur du mal I am stupid or wrong to think a biology blog would be interested in the biological mechanism of human nature, consciousness, and how the brain makes decisions?

    You are aware that not every post at Pharyngula deals with the ‘biological mechanism of human nature…’
    This post, for instance is dealing with the conviction of Jerry Sandusky. He raped children.
    You’ve employed the “Yes, but…” argument as well as deflection.
    Do you really want to be the kind of person that offers excuses for a rapist?

  228. says

    Tony:

    Do you really want to be the kind of person that offers excuses for a rapist?

    Tony, please – we have spent all fucking night dealing with a scum sucking rape apologist. Enough. Take this crap to TZT.

  229. says

    Yeah, I know what you mean. That sort of posturing is just what makes me feel nauseous when assclowns like shoshidge come along with the “I hope he gets raped in prison!” crap. It’s always this pointless, macho posturing which is toxic at its core.

    True. People like him are claiming “Oh, everyone is thinking that, but I am the only one with balls to say it.” Bleccch.

    People can think what ever they want with out consequences. But when they say it, they should be prepared for others to verbally tear them a new A-hole and provide them a decaying porcupine to fill it.

  230. drbunsen le savant fou says

    concernedfoe, fuck off. Take your intellectual masturbation elsewhere.

  231. says

    ScottJordan:

    People can think what ever they want with out consequences. But when they say it, they should be prepared for others to verbally tear them a new A-hole and provide them a decaying porcupine to fill it.

    Yes and it’s a pity so many people don’t seem to understand that.

  232. concernedjoe says

    #250 “At this point, I’m puzzled at your lack of comprehension that humans, unlike lions, can make the choice to NOT rape.”

    That is the heart of the issue. And is important one. Most of us fortunately have natures (via nature and nurture) that lead us to the no-rape decision. Some though do not.

    Again – the is issue is what is the nature and mechanism of decision-making. Not that some people make “the right decision” and “some people make the wrong decision”.

    BTW loins make decisions. What you are saying essentially is animals (I say like humans and lions and cobras) cannot decide things contrary to their nature. I agree – given that nature is defined as a product of the basic morphology and the shaping and triggering factors that can apply. I do not agree humans have a nature that transcends the biological nature mechanisms of any animal. That is where we differ?

    For whatever sad reason JS’s nature was to do those horrific things. In the absence of any stimuli/training/mind altering biological mechanism his opportunity to choose otherwise was very limited. It is his nature – and it is why he must be contained for life.

    Evilness (of person) judgements and vindictive punishments are counterproductive to what really is a problem of biological mechanisms and societal understanding and proper protecting and nurturing of forming minds.

  233. Part-Time Insomniac, Zombie Porcupine Nox Arcana Fan says

    I hope Sandusky gets life in prison, preferably in solitary confinement. For one thing, I think it would end badly if he were put in with the general population. For another, maybe being alone nearly 24/7 would make him stop to think think about why what he did was so wrong. If he’s even inclined to do so.

  234. drbunsen le savant fou says

    I feel like a character from John Carpenters “They Live” – you have given me a glimpse through the lens of Feminism eyes of women, and the world it reveals is fucking horrendous, but nevertheless real. its not so much a useful tool as a priceless gift, and I am grateful for it.

    +1, with slight amendment as above. Hear freaking hear.

    Caine, I’m so sorry :(

  235. Tethys says

    concernedjoe

    What the hell is wrong with you that you can’t shut the fuck up and follow a simple request!?

  236. drbunsen le savant fou says

    PTI:

    preferably in solitary confinement / being alone nearly 24/7

    I’m going to charitably assume that you have momentarily forgotten that this is also a recognized form of torture.

  237. drbunsen le savant fou says

    Caine: for what happened to you. For not expending whatever energy I could spare on making a world where shit like what happened to you, to Cipher, to all of you brave enough to tell us, and to those who have not spoken, is, however slightly, less likely to happen.

  238. Walton says

    I hope Sandusky gets life in prison, preferably in solitary confinement.

    Prolonged solitary confinement is psychological torture. It should be regarded as a human rights abuse, and I do not wish it on anyone, including Sandusky.

  239. concernedjoe says

    Never mind – this is impossible.

    I have been through the full range of things in my long life.

    I can truly empathize (note I said EMPATHIZE) with the victims.

    I am not saying JS is a good guy. And I would have been truly devastated if he was found not guilty. I feared that for days.

    I am saying – because lots being said of a visceral nature herein that rationally I have to step back from my feelings and be more clinical about it. In the interest of my intellectual honesty and principles.

    I am truly sorry any victim of abuse misread my intent. And I am sorry I misread this discussion and felt it warranted a biological opinion so to speak.

    I feel I was appropriate – but perhaps as no one has echoed me in any way – maybe this is not the place. I accept many victims are here justifiably expressing their relief on the verdict. Relief I have too.

  240. says

    drbunsen:

    I’m going to charitably assume that you have momentarily forgotten that this is also a recognized form of torture.

    Gods yes. One of the worst, I think.

  241. Tethys says

    aaaahhhggghhhh! Am I typing in tongues? Why can’t cluelessjoe understand that this isn’t about him?

  242. lexie says

    maybe this is not the place

    Correct. You have been informed multiple times that this is a conversation some pharyngulites are interested in but some of those on this thread and it’s not appropriate here. You have also been informed that there are threads on this blog for those who wish to discuss off topic matters and that the appropriate thread for you to discuss this issue is TZT. If you are interested in discussing freewill vs determinism in regard to criminality then please follow links and go there.

  243. drbunsen le savant fou says

    Comment by concernedjoe blocked. [unkill]​[show comment]

    Good gravy, are you still here??

    Could you kindly be fucking off to TZT, where by a remarkable coincidence there are a large number of people avidly and eruditely discussing the subject of free will at this very moment?

    Instead of rudely shitting up another thread about rape culture with your irrelevant JAQing off, you could be over there talking to people who are, you know, interested.

  244. Mattir says

    I was sexually assaulted for years as a young child. By a man who was raped repeatedly by an older cousin when he was a young child and tortured with enemas by his mother. I don’t forgive him, but I do understand that he was also a victim who spent 80 years suffering because of what was done to him. He was responsible for how he dealt with his pain, but it’s been really important for me to recognize how he was also victimized, in some ways far more sadistically than I was.

    It’s the rape cycle.

    So sure, Sanduscky has probably had a whole lot of suffering in his life, and I can say this without in any way wanting to excuse his guilt or reduce the length of his imprisonment.

  245. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @phlaw

    Okay, this is reaching back a few hours, but phlaw asked if my wish for Sandusky’s suffering wasn’t just as bad as shoshidge’s wish for Sandusky to be raped.

    then Caine said:

    The only ill I wish Sandusky is the denial of access to victims.

    The only time I mentioned “suffering” is when I said I wished him to live as long with ignominy as he has with the glorification that comes with being a Penn State football coach.

    I even said that I wouldn’t mind him being paroled if he truly transformed himself. This is, I would think, vindictive in the loosest sense when it comes to wishing ignominy, but otherwise not at all vindictive. As for the ignominy, what I was really saying was that I wish for him to live as long with the natural consequences of his actions as he did escaping the natural consequences of his actions. Having others be aware of your infamous deeds – and having those others consider infamous deeds to be infamous – is (I would hope) something that is obviously not anything like rape. Wishing for that should be obviously not anything like wishing rape.

    I may not have expressed myself in a manner quite as restrained as Caine. I may in fact be more vindictive than Caine in some senses. But in the core definition of revenge/being vindictive, one doesn’t permit natural consequences to befall: one intentionally/artificially imposes consequences for the purpose of causing pain.

    I do not at all appreciate my call for Sandusky to suffer (“experience” if you prefer) the natural consequences of having his actions revealed being equated to justifying rape.

    If you can’t tell the difference between the two, you aren’t thinking.

    Or maybe I’m completely wrong and others here will call me out on it. But I don’t think so. I think I communicated clearly and that any pro-revenge reading of me is entirely unreasonable. If I was apologizing for rape or even encouraging revenge, I think I would have been called out by now.

  246. says

    Mattir, the family member who raped me for years when I was a child had a perfectly normal childhood, no trauma at all. He simply enjoyed fucking a child. *shrug* Each case is its own.

  247. says

    I just scrolled through the comments and must say, I’m very impressed by the fact that so many of you are appalled by the idea of prison rape as punishment. This is literally the only section of comments about this story that hasn’t made me want to vomit.

    It’s easy to call for “prison justice” when you’ve never been through the pain of sexual assault/abuse yourself. But I have. And my abuser is now serving a twelve year sentence in prison. And honestly, I would not wish that sort of “justice” on him because whenever another victim of sexual assault is created, I cannot see that as any sort of justice.

  248. says

    Crip Dyke:

    then Caine said:

    Nope, that wasn’t me.

    If I was apologizing for rape or even encouraging revenge, I think I would have been called out by now.

    I didn’t read you that way, so you’re fine from my pov. Given that Sandusky is 68 years old, it’s doubtful he’ll serve any significant amount of his sentence. I think it’s a normal impulse to wish that a rapist, particularly a serial rapist, serves out their full sentence.

  249. says

    Walton:

    Prolonged solitary confinement is psychological torture. It should be regarded as a human rights abuse, and I do not wish it on anyone, including Sandusky.

    Sadly, not only are human rights abuses rampant in American prisons*, but they are fucking normalized in our culture.

    Sandusky will spend the rest of his life in prison– I am satisfied with that. I would also like to see Penn State razed to the fucking ground, but I realize that our fucked up football culture won’t allow for that.

    *Look at California, for example.

  250. says

    loreo:

    We may be apes, apes who thrill to violence and find meaning in granfalloon tribalism, but some of us fight to be a species worthy of our brief, beautiful moment in the sun.

    Chemically enhanced or not, this is a beautiful sentiment and I wholly agree– there are too many inspiring people here to name, but I’m in awe of you all.

    You do Vonnegut’s memory proud, loreo.

  251. says

    Audley:

    Chemically enhanced or not, this is a beautiful sentiment

    I agree and said so upthread somewhere. It was a bright moment in an otherwise stressful and frustrating thread. Thank you, Loreo.

  252. Pierce R. Butler says

    Has Sandusky found Jesus yet?

    Anybody wanna start a betting pool how many times that name gets used in his sentencing statement?

    And speaking of names, where do we go to sign the petition for Sandusky, OH, to relabel itself?

  253. says

    Pierce:

    Has Sandusky found Jesus yet?

    Doesn’t Sandusky already consider himself a Christian? Of course, I do expect the Jesus this and Jesus that and God this and God that and prayed this and prayed that to accelerate like mad.

  254. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Now that Jerry Sandusky has been found guilty, it is time to get the system that knew about and allowed Sandusky to act with impunity.

    It is too late to get Joe Paterno. But Paterno made millions because of his connections in the Second Mile Foundation. If possible, his heirs should give up that money.

    Second Mile should be closed down and it’s access should be split between Sandusky’s victims and advocacy groups that cater to people like Sandusky’s victims.

    Joe Paterno knew about Sandusky and covered for him. The administration of Penn State knew and covered him. This should be enough to end the football program of Penn State.

    Yes, I know that many students rioted when Paterno was fired. I do not fucking care. Those rioters showed that did did not care that their “hero” was protecting a rapist.

    This is the very definition of a rape culture. Burn it to the ground. Get rid of the football program because too many people think that football is more important than stopping a rapist.

  255. says

    Janine:

    This should be enough to end the football program of Penn State.

    Oh how I wish. I wish, I wish.

    This is the very definition of a rape culture. Burn it to the ground. Get rid of the football program because too many people think that football is more important than stopping a rapist.

    Dipped in silver, wrapped in tentacles and QFMFT.

  256. says

    I feel like a character from John Carpenters “They Live” – you have given me a glimpse through the lens of Feminism eyes of women, and the world it reveals is fucking horrendous, but nevertheless real. its not so much a useful tool as a priceless gift, and I am grateful for it.

    Only with less padding.

    @Concerned Joe: You are apologizing for rape. Stop it. Change your nature. Lobotomize yourself if need be because that attitude frankly makes me fear for the safety of others around you.

    Jebus fucking christ. I just got up & discover shoshidge has been cluelessly shitting over this thread all night long. I am so disgusted at his amoral defense of the indefensible that I was just going to ban him, but I see people with more mercy calling for quarantine…OK. Shoshidge, you nasty stupid piece of shit, you may only post to TZT from now on

    Evil Villain voice: YOU SEE YOU FOOLS! THIS IS WHAT YOUR “MERCY” GETS YOU!!

  257. says

    Janine:

    Burn it to the ground. Get rid of the football program because too many people think that football is more important than stopping a rapist.

    I’d like nothing more than to see Penn State’s football program completely dismantled– hell, if we’re fantasizing, I’d like to see the entire school shut down.

    Second Mile should be closed down and it’s access should be split between Sandusky’s victims and advocacy groups that cater to people like Sandusky’s victims.

    Too late, I’m afraid. Second Mile moves to dissolve.

  258. terryg says

    drbunsen @265,

    thanks, YFIFM – too much focus on the glasses analogy at the expense of the reality. Hmm, might be a lesson in there.

  259. drbunsen le savant fou says

    terryg: no problem, I intended my amendment only to speak for myself.

    Though, as I typed it, it occurred to me how often the words of women brave enough to simply tell us what their life is like are derided as “that feminism stuff”, I’m not ascribing that thought process to you.

  260. Erista (aka Eris) says

    As someone who has what is traditionally called/labeled “rape fantasies,” let me say that I am incredibly pissed off that “rape fantasies” would be brought up in the context of actual rape.

    There are two kinds of “rape fantasy.” One kind of “rape fantasy” is kind of like a “centaur fantasy” or a “Star Trek fantasy”; it’s a fantasy where you play pretend, knowing that what you are doing isn’t real, cannot be real, and wouldn’t be fun if it was real. If the fantasy is to be played out in any form, it will be under the firm hand of safe words, periodic “are you ok?” checks, predetermined limits, and more, because the people involved don’t actually want rape.

    Then there is the other kind of rape fantasy where someone actually wants to go out and rape someone else, which bears no resemblance to the above situation.

    Trying to squash the two together is beyond offensive, and it used by rapists to use people’s “make believe” drive to legitimize actual rape. So knock it the fuck off.

  261. concernedjoe says

    WW – gss prcptns r prcptns. vn PZ rds t ths wy.

    Bt llw m jst fr th rcrd sy n n wy xcs rp, nr bvt glt. wnt scty t xplr th wys nd whrfrs f wht gs nt bldng rpst/prdtr lk JS. nd t sn’t th dvl, nr smn jst rndmly dcdng t bcm n.

    Thnk f m hw y wnt. Bt knw m tryng t gt my hd rnd why th JS’s xst! nd thn – wht s th vl f pnshmnt systm n mkng bttr scty t bgn wth.

    nsnstv? knw m nt. Msrdng th dnc f scnc blg s nt crm hp.

  262. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    Concernedjoe, I know you’re not illiterate. PZ just told you to go away. GO AWAY.

  263. gupwalla says

    Alverant @ 4:

    Sorry if this has been addressed already. All 10 victims whose cases were before the court saw justice on Friday. The three not guilty verdicts were associated with three of the more severe, but less well attested, charges relating to three separate victims. But the jury found guilty on other charges related to each of those three victims. All 10 victims had multiple charges validated by the jury.

    And having followed the trial closely, I think the jury came to the right decision even on those three charges. Not because Sandusky did not (probably) commit those crimes, but because the state’s evidence was just short of the reasonable doubt standard.

    (For example, one of those charges required evidence of actual penetration, and while the state’s witness described something that might be interpreted as penetration, he didn’t have a clear enough view to state so with any measure of certainty. The victim in that case did not testify, so the jury decided it did not have enough evidence of actual penetration to find guilty on that one charge. But it found guilty on all the lesser included charges relating to the same victim.)

    Very careful jury. The overwhelming weight of the evidence pushed them towards guilty verdicts, but they also took seriously their duty to weigh the evidence against the legal standard and give Sandusky as much benefit of the doubt as that duty required of them.

  264. throwaway says

    I’m not one for dismantling the whole school for the cover-up. It’s not fair to the students. I would, however, love to see the incrimination of those who had the power to stop it and have them lose their privileged positions so it’s not possible for another cover-up to happen.

  265. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Did I say a word about dismantling the school, throwaway?

    No.

    I said to get rid of the football program.

    Big fucking difference.

    Next time, read what I said. Or were you just looking for a straw person?

  266. throwaway says

    Sorry Janine, I’ll be more careful in directing where my comment applies.

    Audley stated in #295

    I’d like nothing more than to see Penn State’s football program completely dismantled– hell, if we’re fantasizing, I’d like to see the entire school shut down.

  267. echidna says

    Throwaway,
    Why are you responding to fantasizing by saying it would be unfair in real life?

  268. onion girl, OM; social workers do it with paperwork says

    I know some of these issues have been addressed already, but I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing to have it repeated, and there are a few things I wanted to clarify from the position of a mental health practitioner who has worked with rape/sexual assault/child sexual abuse for most of my career.

    1. As much as it would be wonderful for Sandusky to have been charged and convicted on all counts, the counts he was convicted on were enough to keep him locked up for life. It is an extremely traumatic experience for a rape victim to go through the criminal justice process–testifying, questioning, going over the incidents in excruciating detail–there are some victims who are just not strong enough to handle it. In those cases, the goal is simply to get the abuser off the streets without further traumatizing the victim during the process as much as possible.

    It doesn’t make it any easier for anyone–victim, family, law enforcement, etc–to let a perpetrator ‘win’ by ‘getting away with’ one of the crimes they committed, but sometimes it is more important to safe-guard the physical and emotional health of the victims. (And it really, really, really sucks sometimes.)

    2. As others have stated, equating BDSM fantasies with rape fantasies is inaccurate and offensive at the very least. BDSM is about consent; rape is the opposite. In fact, there are many rape survivors who do participate in BDSM in a manner that is beneficial to their rape recovery. I’ve worked with several survivors who engaged in consensual BDSM fantasies with their partners. Participating in a BDSM fantasy means that no matter what the dom is doing to the sub, the sub is actually the one in control. The fantasy can become a way that a survivor takes back the control over their body they lost during rape.

    3. The desire for revenge is an intrinsic part of human nature. It is normal for us to have feelings believing that pain and death is deserved by those who cause us harm or cause harm to our loved ones. However, impulsive thoughts are not the same as unconscious thoughts, and thoughts are not the same as action. As moral and ethical human beings, we are responsible for acknowledging and recognizing that a brief desire for revenge should be nothing more than that: a brief desire. The steps should be: “A rapist is being sent to prison. Rapist may then be raped himself in prison. Hey, that’s karma! Wait–no. No one deserves to be raped, even rapists. He will be in prison and unable to cause harm to anyone else. That is a fitting and appropriate punishment.”

    4. When discussing the victims of trauma, what is sometimes forgotten is that many rapists are in fact victims of rape themselves. Rape damages its victims. Rape also damages the rapists. NO ONE WINS. I’ve worked with abuse survivors, and I’ve also worked with abusers. There are individuals who meet the criteria for sociopathy or psychopathy (there’s not really much of a difference, and that terminology is currently contested, but that’s a whole other subject) who rape with no empathy for their victims, but based on my experience and the research I’ve studied, that is a much smaller percentage of perpetrators. The other bulk of perpetrators are individuals who have themselves been the victim of abuse and assault and are reenacting the trauma on others. To be absolutely clear: that in no way absolves the perpetrators of their actions! But I do want to present the concept of exactly how damaging rape culture is, that the victims are everyone in the experience, in addition to the actual victims of the rape itself. In other words–rape culture damages our entire society.
    Preventing rape means eliminating rape culture. Part of eliminating rape culture is better treating sexual offenders. Often sexual offenders begin offending in childhoodL: a child is sexually abused from ages 5-9, the child acts out their abuse on other children, and if this is not identified, the child then goes on to hit puberty, and slowly sexual acting out evolves into sexual predatory behavior. The reason I point this out is just to underscore how important it is to identify victims of sexual abuse and provide better treatment so those victims who may be likely to become offenders never do. If Jerry Sandusky experienced sexual trauma in his childhood–and I think it is quite likely that he did–and had received treatment and support, perhaps he may have not turned into a sexual offender himself.
    There’s no way to know definitely, of course. But as a social worker who has treated, quite literally, hundreds of victims and dozens of offenders, I would much rather find ways to prevent sexual abuse from ever occurring that to treat the aftermath. We haven’t developed the tools, laws, policies, or social change to do that yet. But I have hope that one day we will.

    …wow. Talk about tl;dr. :) Take home:
    –justice for victims must take into account the trauma they experience during the process
    –BDSM =/= rape fantasy and can be therapeutic, in some cases, for abuse survivors.
    –thoughts of revenge should remain thoughts
    –victims can become offenders; finding ways to prevent that will prevent future victims.
    (oh, good grief. I didn’t realize just how long this thing had gotten, and I didn’t have a chance to finish it until now. Apologies for being super long in a thread that seems to be winding down, but it took a while to write and I didn’t want to just delete it. :)

  269. throwaway says

    echidna

    Throwaway,
    Why are you responding to fantasizing by saying it would be unfair in real life?

    Are you trying to urge me to a realisation or a faux pas with this line of questioning? If the realisation is that I shouldn’t be reigning in other peoples fantasies, then I agree. I still have a lot to learn when communicating with people, but my intent wasn’t malicious at all and I’m sorry if I’ve overstepped a bound along the way.

  270. Lyn M, Purveyor of Fine Aphorisms of Death says

    Haven’t read the whole thread yet, but by #88, I found I was thinking the same thing several times. Before I say more, let me confirm to the real people here who really have been harmed and experienced the wider effects of the original crime (the family members), I offer my condolences. I am going to make an abstract point here, which may cause you distress and you may want to skip the last paragraph or the whole rest of this. I mean no disrespect to the stress and pain you experience as a result of the crime.

    The “eye for an eye” rule is often cited as support for the correctness of “reciprocity” in punishing a crime. What is rarely mentioned in these discussions is that the eye rule (Lex Talionis, for Latin fans) was actually formulated as a LIMIT on what the punishment should be. The idea was that if someone slapped your family member, you should not go over and wipe out the family, not even the slapper alone. You should limit your punishment to something proportionate to the initial offence. You slap them back and then you stop.

    The idea that justice has to include some element of revenge is not new nor particularly respectable. There are many other goals that can fit a reasonable system, including educating the offender so that he or she understands the wrongfulness of the offence and will not repeat it. This is usually seen as more probably effective with the young. The punishment is the restriction on the freedom of movement and association as well as the regimentation of the environment. Although the thought of these goals may cause one to laugh when considering an actual prison system which is over-crowded and under-funded, it should be a standard toward which we move.

    Feeling it is OK to harm another because that person is bad or did something bad, may be natural. But so is shitting in your diapers, and we usually train children out of that one.

  271. Lyn M, Purveyor of Fine Aphorisms of Death says

    PS to my comment at 309,

    Onion girl said it better about a natural desire for revenge.

  272. jnorris says

    First it was Monsignor William Lynn and now Jerry Sandusky, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania moves slow but sure. I only hope other state prosecutors are as mindful of their duty.

  273. drbunsen le savant fou says

    wow. Talk about tl;dr.

    Au contraire, dearest, all-too-oft unsung heroine of the daily, muddy trench warfare of this mess, brave onion girl –

    Perfect length; read every word.

    I want this on T-shirts. I want it on subway posters. I want it read out, daily, at random times, on every channel. I want to read it to my future grandchildren, when they ask me about the past, and the horrors that existed there.

  274. A. R says

    victims can become offenders; finding ways to prevent that will prevent future victims.

    QFMFT

  275. phlaw says

    @crip dyke #280

    I was not equating your comments with shoshidge’s. Clearly wishing ignominy is not the same as wishing rape. But they both wish something extra, on top of the punishment given. There is a spectrum, with shoshidge at one extreme.

    Public shame is not one of the reasons people are sent to prison. Justice must be seen to be done, but this is not the same as public shame. Sandusky’s victims will know that he will be in prison for the rest of his life, which is justice being seen to be done.

    Wishing that the remainder of his life be as long as possible, that advances in medicine would keep him alive to prolong the shame – that is going beyond agreeing with his sentence and struck me as containing the same sentiment as shosidge’s comment.

    If not, then ok, I may have misread the comment. No need to get insulting.

  276. John Morales says

    phlaw:

    There is a spectrum, with shoshidge at one extreme.

    There is no such spectrum; there is a categorical difference between wishing harm, specificallyand wishing long life and self-awareness upon someone.

    Wishing that the remainder of his life be as long as possible, that advances in medicine would keep him alive to prolong the shame – that is going beyond agreeing with his sentence and struck me as containing the same sentiment as shosidge’s comment.

    The sentiment was that he be raped in prison, O disingenous one.

    (Your sophistry is weak)

  277. Louis says

    I see the interwebs have been busy. One day out and already rape-revenge fantasists and pomo apologistas.

    Well I can at least take some comfort in the fact that things don’t change, right? Oh wait…no I can’t.

    Given the difficulty of these types of trials (based on what I have read) and the rarity of them even coming to trial, I’m glad this sexual predator has been/will be incarcerated. Finally. I just wish, uselessly, it had happened much earlier…hell, whilst I’m wishing, I wish that the things that caused this trial to be necessary had never happened, might as well wish big!

    Some things are so tragic there are no “winners” in any part of it.

    Louis

  278. phlaw says

    @morales

    Wishing self awareness is not the same as wishing extended public humiliation. Who is being disingenuous?

    One called for rape, the other called for his life to be extended to prolong the punishment. Both seem to me to be vindictive.

  279. John Morales says

    phlaw:

    One called for rape, the other called for his life to be extended to prolong the punishment. Both seem to me to be vindictive.

    <sigh>

    Rape is a life-shattering experience for many victims, and many are damaged for life; the wish for long life so that someone’s sentence may be completed is in no way like wishing such a violation upon someone, however vindictive such a wish may be.

  280. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Both seem to me to be vindictive.

    Sure if you consider all forms of punishment or removal from society for its protection vindictive.

  281. zb24601 says

    Having read the Wikipedia page for Jerry Sandusky, and seeing info about his early life, I wonder if he might have been a victim of sexual abuse as a child. I have enormous sympathy for anyone who is sexually abused. And I have sympathy for people who have a sexual attraction to children and manage to resist their urges to actually sexually abuse a child, and I wish them success in their battle to resist those urges. But once they cross that line and actually abuse a child, I want them rendered unable to abuse a child again. I’m not an expert in this area, but if some kind of treatment can get them to stop the abuse, fine, but if not, they need to be kept away from children. If Sandusky had been prosecuted after he abused his first victim, maybe he would not have so many more victims. After the abuse was discovered by his fellow priest university employees, and Sandusky was not stopped, those who knew and did not report it TO THE POLICE have some moral responsibility for all of Sandusky’s victims after that point.

  282. phlaw says

    @morales

    Pretty sure you know this, but condension and pretension do not increase the chances of your points coming across well.

    I could agree with the comment if it had been to give more time for Sandusky to show remorse, to show the victims he comprehends the terrible consequences of his crimes.

    But that is different from artificially giving him more time to suffer his public disgrace and humiliation. That has already happened and he will live with it until he dies. Actively prolonging his death to extend that humiliation is in nobody’s interests.

    @rev bdc

    It’s not the punishment, it’s the extension that is vindictive.

  283. Beatrice says

    Having read the Wikipedia page for Jerry Sandusky, and seeing info about his early life, I wonder if he might have been a victim of sexual abuse as a child

    I don’t see anything in the text that supports the idea that he’d been abused.

  284. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    it’s the extension that is vindictive.

    How is wishing Sandusky a long life vindictive??? Your concern is noted.

  285. phlaw says

    If you want someone to live longer so they can suffer more…that’s vindictive.

  286. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

    If you want someone to live longer so they can suffer more…that’s vindictive

    Well, you certainly suffer more alive than dead so…

    I wish you a long life.

  287. John Morales says

    phlaw:

    Pretty sure you know this, but condension and pretension do not increase the chances of your points coming across well.

    I am who I am; some of my interlocutors perceive me as you do, others don’t.

    (‘Tain’t me, ’tis you :) )

    I could agree with the comment if it had been to give more time for Sandusky to show remorse, to show the victims he comprehends the terrible consequences of his crimes.

    You mean like this? “Oh, I totally hope medical science improves to the point where someone in prison who is nearabouts 30 years older than I (and thus has less time for the science to improve) can easily live to 129.

    Then I hope he gets denied parole and spends another 20 years inside… unless, and I doubt this will happen, but it can …he truly transforms himself.”

    But that is different from artificially giving him more time to suffer his public disgrace and humiliation. That has already happened and he will live with it until he dies. Actively prolonging his death to extend that humiliation is in nobody’s interests.

    No more youths raped; they are not nobody.

  288. Aquaria says

    I’d also like to point out that much of mental and emotional damage results from the reactions of family, friends, law enforcement and those involved in legal prosecution.

    In my case, I’d add the slimeball “therapist” who belittled and invalidated my pain by actually saying–only two days after what happened to me–that “at least” I wasn’t stabbed with a screwdriver when I was raped, like another of her patients was. What–there’s some kind of competition for “worst rape”?

    And then people wonder why I have such a low opinion of mental health “professionals.”