I’m going to do it anyway.
I know what you hope to do: you want to evangelize to the heathen and win more souls for the Lord. At the same time, you’d like to save money, because as we all know, Jesus wants his followers to be prosperous and rich. How can you do both at the same time?
Easy. Here’s a great way to save on tips and proselytize at the same time!
Your waiter will love you for trying so hard to get him or her into heaven.
Ugh. That’s happened to me several times (in my past). It doth suck donkey balls
With such clever marketing tactics by Xians, we have no chance.
It’s true, though, that some things are better than money. And there some things worse than than giving you the finger.
Glen Davidson
Your waiter will love you for trying so hard to get him or her into heaven.
Or at the very least your waiter will be anxious for you to get to Heaven very soon and may be willing to help you get there.
I’ve seen these fake bills in the past, but only in the context of (pretend) money lying on the street. Littering and a nasty trick to play on street people who could use the money for luxuries like food and shelter if it were real, but at least not personal malice. Depriving working people of their due income sucks a dead porcupine.
I wonder if Christians give these when they get good service or bad.
That was frequently my tip around every holiday when I was a waitress at a Steak’n’Shake in high school. Immediate thoughts upon receiving these is always “Asshole! You just spent $50 on food, a little card with a Jesus prayer on it doesn’t cover the the the NOT EVEN MINIMUM WAGE I’m making.” Fortunately, I was in high school, not trying to live off these scant leavings.
These fucking things pop up around work all the time. As far as I can tell I’m the only one who picks them up. So they either go to me who destroys them (or more recently sharpies atheist messages on them and returns them) or they get hit by the lawn mowers
That Christian had better not go back to that restaurant. Pissed off waitstaff can fuck with food in some really horrendous ways.
Bah, this has always made me angry when I’ve read about it in the past, because of the way I’ve seen them used. According to some blogs I’ve seen, some Christians like to leave them as tips after Sunday morning church service, because the waiter/waitress shouldn’t get a real tip when they are evilly working on the Sabbath… Regardless of if Sunday is the right day for the Sabbath or not, I just can’t understand how hypocritical one can be to feel that way and still go to a restaurant and eat on a Sunday.
And of course the problem is compounded in places with a strong culture for tipping, like the US. As I understand it, the serving staff in American restaurants doesn’t need to get paid a living wage, because they get money in tips anyway. I just feel that that’s so wrong. Not only can they be screwed over by sanctimonious religious people like this, but by other things that are outside their control – like customers who are unhappy with the quality of the food so they don’t leave a tip. It just seems like such a massively insecure income, and I don’t envy them one bit.
At the risk of sounding like “Mr Pink” (’cause I do tip) just once I would like to see a sign in a restaurant that says “We pay our staff a decent wage so you don’t have to tip”.
Dick move, anonymous Christian. Dick. Move.
Waiters need real tips to make ends meet and/or pay for tuition. All those fake bills do is make Christians feel good for being miserly and divisive towards struggling people.
I’ve heard so much anecdotal evidence that the post-church crowd are lousy tippers, but it’d be interesting to see some solid evidence.
So they either go to me who destroys them (or more recently sharpies atheist messages on them and returns them)
Reuse or recycle…sounds like you’ve got how to deal with the nuisance down.
In the UK, one is always expected to leave a tip for the waiter. “Don’t park on a double yellow line” is a good one.
It just seems like such a massively insecure income, and I don’t envy them one bit.
It is. My standard is 10% for bad service, 20% for good. But then again I’m an immoral atheist.
As I understand it, it’s illegal to make photocopies of U.S. currency unless the copy is scaled down to 75% or less, or scaled up to 150% or more. If these phony bills are the same size as a real bill, which I imagine they are or the waiter would have realized sooner, whoever is making them is in violation of federal law. Don’t know the penalties offhand.
The odd thing about the particular shade of hubris:
Somebody had to write the copy and print the (legally dubious) counterfeit Hamilton. At that point in time, the author felt they knew how the entire universe operated, that they knew more than anybody else, that they were SMARTER THAN GOD. That they knew what God wanted and was thinking. The same god that they presumably worship. Xtian mental onanism.
This exact method was used by my former church when I was a kid (I’ve since moved to the Bright side). Except it was fake $100 bills. The pastors instructed people where to leave the bills – i.e. at restaurants, in malls, etc. I can still remember my 13 year old self thinking – “man, I’d be PISSED! No way in hell I’d actually convert to a faith using these tactics.”
If that’s their idea of a tip, here’s a tip from me to Anonymous Xtian: “Yellow snow is a natural phenomenon and perfectly safe to eat”.
Cheap shot? Yeah, they started it. (Once had the same back in my pub work days)
Something similar happened to my parents when they were first married. A bit strapped for cash, they saw a $10 note laying on the sidewalk with no one else in sight, picked it up, only to get an eyeful of preaching.
FSM-damned evangelists.
I wonder if the churches ever get any of these in their collection boxes?
James 2:16 come to mind as relevant. But lots of evangelicals tend to ignore that book ‘cuz, you know, ol’ Jimmy kind of throws a monkey-wrench in the whole “Just believe in Jesus and you’ll go to heaven” schtick, and it makes them confused and uncomfortable.
Ugh, sanctimonious xians. This is like giving out Jack Chick tracts at Halloween. Has anyone in the world been converted or convinced by a tract? It’s pure stupidity to mess with the people who make and serve you food.
I rand across one of these the other day, and as I crumpled it up and threw it away, I realized something…
Something like 70% of Americans are practicing christians. So these assholes are leaving this crap not just for us, but each other. The odds of them pissing off another christian are much higher than of even it finding an atheist.
So why do they do it? It’s just an asshole move all around, saying they’re a better/snootier christian than thou?
I know violence isn’t the answer most of the time, but I think being stabbed repeatedly in the face might discourage this kind of behavior.
If you’re going to be a cheap schmuck, at LEAST have the decency not to pull a “gotcha!” on top of it. Because then you look like a CRUEL cheap schmuck.
Nah, I am against tipping on principle, we should not support such ridiculously primitive system.
I have never tipped and never will, and I have convinced several people to also stop tipping.
‘Tis Himself @ 6:
I know we certainly did in my days as a waitress. Seasonings a la dustpan, shoe-tenderized meats, etc.
Moggie @ 10
More anecdotal evidence, I’m afraid, but I worked at five different restaurants (two diners, three mid-scale places) over 8 years. At every one of them, the owners or managers had to rotate staff for the Sunday afternoon shift because tips were so awful between noon and 4pm, you were lucky to make enough for gas to get home.
Based purely on my informal observations, Baptists are the worst tippers (and most likely to leave Chick tracts or fake money) followed closely behind by Methodists. Catholics were 10 percenters — no more, no less. Unitarians were always good, usually leaving 15% or more, but they didn’t come in often.
I’m trying to figure out if any of the people who leave this sort of “tip” think that it’s actually an effective evangelical tool and has lead to conversions in the past — and thus might do so this time.
What do they think will happen? Waitress/waiter/unwary passerby picks up what looks like a $10 bill (or $100!), turns it over, smiles, and then thinks to themselves “Jesus bought my salvation? Really? I have not come across this idea before now. If so, then that would indeed be better than money! I better pray: ‘Jesus, I know I am a sinner and without accepting you I would spend eternity in Hell. I believe that you’re God’s son and my only way to heaven blah blah blah …'”
Do they hear stories like this from people who stand up at church and give their testimony? “I used to be a sinful bus boy, and then one day I saw what looked like money under the plate … and it ended with my salvation! Halleleujah! Praise the Lord!” Did they read such tales in the brochure that’s wrapped over the handouts? Did they have one in the ad in Proselytizer’s Weekly? What?
Maybe they don’t really think this ever works but, like Fred Phelps and his gang of fag-hating presupps, think this is simply a means to shame the sinners and allow them to dig deeper holes to Hell for themselves. I don’t know. It is a puzzlement.
#21, at 21 November 2011 4:19, MizzMazz wrote:
Not just sanctimonious, but stupid, naive, and lacking street smarts. Otherwise they’d know that tracts don’t do a thing to convince anybody to become a Jeebusite, be they Jack Chick affairs or fake currency.
None of which is news, of course.
Wow, I want some of those, so I can go into a church and tithe with it.
(Not that I am likely to enter a church in the foreseeable future, but someone should)
@syggyx:
Nice. Change the system by punishing its victims? Yeah, that’ll work.
@24
They must love you at your local pub/restaurant.
syggyx
Bless your heart.
Funny thing is that while 70% of Americans may be practicing Christians, 100% of them think the other 90% are doing it wrong. Amusing that to get those “false Christians” on the “true path” they use the exact same techniques on each other.
syggyx @ 24: Great idea! That’ll teach those servers to work for less than half the minimum wage!
May I recommend you never eat in the same place twice? Or better yet, do.
Syxysgsggysx: Congratulations, you’re still wrong on everything.
Maybe you shouldn’t eat at restaurants where tipping is expected, Mr. Pink. Or even leave your house.
If I were a bigger arsehole I’d have done this when stateside to turn more people against Christians.
Pity I have ethics. Guess I should take up religion.
BCPA_Lady says:
How did you identify their denominations?
Interesting that Catholics apparently think diners are church.
–o–
I think I tipped very poorly during my stay in Texas years ago. I hope I did better in NY.
$2.65 per hour? What’s that in real money… £1.70? People get paid £1.70 an hour for service work in America? That’s… barbaric. Even national minimum wage for under 18s is £3.68 in the uk, and it’s £6.08 if you’re over 21. Not that that is anything like enough mind, but still… there’s a chance you could just about live on that if you worked full time.
Why exactly is it considered okay in America to treat people so badly?
Oh. Right. The religion. And the right-wing evilness. I feel a bit silly for asking now.
These fuckers function at sub intellekt’ level…they only catch the brain dead and the young naive posse or the vulnerable in general.
That is their perfect target cos when netted the victims they rarely flap a gill in protest, wonderful material for the vultures to scam and organise into cannon fodder for evangelical shenanigans.
But is does display quite clearly the juvenile intellectual level 99% of religion, and especially the evangelical clowns, ‘tactics’ to ensnare and abuse the unwary mentally and financially.
Jackie Chick is another example of the actual level they bob along at….that folks get taken by his doodling says more about the readers cognitive function then it does about Chick’s flatulent bigoted arguments!
syggyx is Mr Pink!
zabinatrix:
Maybe those Good Christian Families™ should just stay the fuck home on Sunday, then they wouldn’t have to sully their eyes by gazing at the great unsaved masses who are just trying to earn a living.
Wouldn’t it be great if every religious gas-bag left us alone for one day out of the week?
Reminds my of my fellow students at Jesus U long ago. I worked in the school cafeteria. There was no tipping, but feeding them and killing up the mess exposed their worst side. They could be inconsiderate, arrogant, insufferable, greedy, and gross…all 5 at once. The scariest thing was stepping on the steps to the cafeteria on Sunday at Noon and watching them charge from church to get to the fried chicken first. It’s one of the key experiences that set me on the road to dumping all that belief x-crap.
I used to work as an airport shuttle driver, and most days over half my income came from tips. I once had a lady try to give me a tract instead of a tip after I had wrestled her 70lb bags into and out of the van. I flat out told her I was an atheist, not interested, and all she was doing was costing me money I needed to eat.
But yeah, making it look like a $10? No class at all. I hope these morons are regulars, so revenge can be taken.
When in high school, I delivered pizzas (after gas, the money almost paid for the new clutch and new brakes). One house we all hated. He ordered a small cheese pizza, paid in small change, and his tip was always a Chick Tract. We all discussed, with the manager, whether we could spit on his pizza (we never did, but we could dream, right?).
shame you cant shred the chick tract in front of him and sprinkle it on the pizza – well not in a way where you keep your job.
@44: Shame you never thought to spell out “Satan Rules!!!” in the pizza somehow.
Really? You have serious problems in America. How can a server only be paid 2.65$ an hour? I find that more problematic than the proselytising in place of a tip, though that’s shitty too …just significantly less shitty than making 2.65$ an hour. That is just so fucking wrong.
MizzMozz #21
Growing up in a Christian home and church, I heard dozens of stories about people converted by a tract. Some even referred to real people that I knew about.
“He was on his way to jump off a bridge and the wind blew a tract in his face. He read it (probably mentions John 3:16 here) and immediately got down on his knees and prayed the sinner’s prayer. Glory to God!” That sort of thing.
Maybe “the unsaved” might not be convinced by a tract, but many Christians are inspired by those tract conversion stories.
I’ve seen the $100 “bills”. And the $100,000 “cheques” with the same message. Monopoly money without the excuse of a game.
I had this thought, briefly, before it occurred to me that I probably couldn’t be that big an asshole for, well, any reason whatsoever.
There’s also the more pragmatic hitch that the option wouldn’t really come up that much. I mostly tend to eat in places they kinda already know me. Staff ‘d be like: ‘Okay, coming from you, that’s just like… wait, what?’
I s’pose I could come in wearing a gorilla mask, to do the deed, however. I can see the story in the local tabloids now: ‘Local restaurant staff say weirdo ‘Gorilla Christian’ guy is also lousy tipper…’
Sorta more seriously, there’s just something so very a propos about this, tho’. Religion and funny money so seem to go together, now that I think about it.
(/The cheque’s in the mail/Your reward’s in heaven. Pretty much the same game, in the end.)
Can we agree that this IS cowardly? not even having the balls to preach to someone’s face? They have to hide behind this bullshitterdoucheanozzel?
… hrm, tho’ come to think of it, given this astonishing display of déclassé cheapitude, next time I get stuck in a church for some wedding type thing or ‘nother, and they pass the plate, I’d be entirely in my rights just to put in a page from Demon-Haunted World or similar, photocopied onto the back of a Monopoly $500 bill, right?
How to convert people, a xian manual:
1: Believe ridiculous nonsense
2: Behave terribly to your fellow man
3: ???
4: Prophet!
What Cartomancer said.
Currently, my country is discussing introducing a general minimum wage law. Our social welfare system guarantees your (cheap) rent, clothes, minimum power and communication, and (cheap) food. If you transfer that to money, it would amount to a fulltime (40 hour) salary of about €3,60 an hour or more. How any developed, humane country could even dare to pay workers less than that is beyond me. My country had a bloody revolution to get rid of these conditions more than a hundred years ago. How are there not tens of thousands of people on the streets of the USA demanding a guarantee of at least minimum human dignity?
I was a busboy then later a waiter as a young man. It was a lot of work and tips were the lion’s share of my income.
To, one, stiff a server for no reason other than to give some bullshit religious propaganda is beyond even what I thought a christian would do.
I used to consider my contempt of christians to be something along y=10x. Y being contempt and X being the typical christian.
After reading this post, the function has changed to an an exponential function: y=10 to the x, where y is contempt and x is the typical christian and where x is greater than zero.
This means that for every additional story I hear about christians (x) my contempt for the group increases exponentially. Gone is my linear contempt; usher in the exponential age.
Cheap bastard! I wonder if the “christian” who left that scabrous paper understands that s/he committed a so-called sin.
You’ve never convinced anyone of a goddamned thing in your life, you lying lump of phlegm.
You couldn’t convince a doctor not to push you overboard if you were the only two people on a life raft that needed two to row to safety.
Ing: Yeah, cowardly. At least the attempted saves I’ve experienced in the last five or so years (oddly, when I began to drift from agnostic to atheist, I was ‘witnessed’ about seven times in two years, including two in one day) have been face to face. And interesting.
Wife got an attempted saving by mail (a weird Christian paper prayer rug).
I just walked past a bunch of poor people, I become so sensitive recent past for some reason, I gett tears in my eyes and all weepy.
The first “poor” (was selling things with children) person I gave a couple of dollars, quite a lot actually, she tried to give me candy but as I cant eat things like that I said no and thankyou and bye, and then I continued on and run into another poor person but didnt have any coins anywhere, the only thing I had was equivalent to 20$ and as I am a bit poor I didnt want to give away that much.
Anyway, I have been thinking, recent time, about giving more and contributing to the poverty around me. I given more and more and realized how little most people give, and worse, how little people care about others.
It is truly sad how selfish people are, only caring about themselves. :(
Bob
I wouldn’t go quite that far, but I tend to tip 10-15% and round down for unimpressive service, and tip 15-20% rounded up for better. I’ve given 25% before when impressed. The last time I didn’t leave a tip was when the waiter rung up another table’s order on my ticket and just said “I’ll fix it.” when I pointed it out.
When I worked in restaurants, it was customary to replace any and all non-skilled staff as soon as possible; in my state they could pay kids less and trainees half. It was pretty awful. The state law has since changed, but other states are like that.
I’m not against trainees and kids getting paid less – but there was no method of enforcement. No way to make sure the trainees were being trained and not just used as regular or temp work; no way to see if the kids were doing the same hours and jobs as an older worker. And no punishment even if a DA knew it.
I always Tip, usually quite a Deal.
Do you know why? So I can feel so much better right? So I can feel how Good and better Bob is versus others? No, sorry, I actually get slightly irritated by thankyous and such, I GIVE BECAUSE I WANT TO HELP, BECAUSE I SEE A CHANCE TO HELP OTHER PEOPLE, and as a FELLOW HUMAN BEING I CONSIDER THAT MY DUTY, that if I CAN HELP I SHOULD.
And when I see people not giving Anything in Tip and then proselytize? Oh FUCK YOU, I apologize for swearing.
And 2.65$ an hour????????????? This cant be right thats ridiculous?
If you care about others so much, then why the fuck did you use the hateful word faggot the other day? Why did you do that, Bob??? WHY????
The $2.65 an hour gets even better – servers are taxed (income withheld) based on actually getting a real tip. I don’t know the rate these days. But if some jerk doesn’t leave a tip they still take the money out of your $2.65 an hour like the tip was there.
They justify the low wage on the idea that you’ll also get tips. And as I understand it, some places also take some of the tip money for the establishment.
whatasystem.
I always wondered why wait staff couldn’t just turn themselves into consultants or private contractors and pay themselves that way. Maybe all employees should work that way – companies don’t care about employees any more anyway (one of my employers, when you had contact with the owning family despised the employees and had nothing but contempt for customers). Maybe it is time for all workers to become corporations – then they would have all the rights of a person.
Instead of food…could you just bring them some bible quote about the bible providing sustenance? That would be cool.
Aratina Cage I am not perfect, I have issues with faggots, I admit, I do not pretend otherwise. I do not want them around me, I do not want them to marry, My own personal view, I do not claim to be perfect, no one is.
For the people shocked at the low wages more than the lack of tip: That’s one of the reasons I’m angered by the miserly proselytizers. The system is bad enough, but they’re making it worse by disposing of the pretense behind tips.
Throw in the implication that the low income waiter is being greedy for having a job where he’s dependent on other people’s generosity, and that’s adding insult to the injury.
I’ve never been very good at leaving a tip. A fault worked on by a former significant other. But as most of the “restaurants” I go to are fastfood or teriyaki joints, it’s not a big deal. When I go to ‘sitdown’ eateries, I try to remember to tip.
Aren’t these tightwad asshats missing out on the obvious? Leave the trick bill AND a real one. The server will think of you as a human rather than a moving doorstop and just possibly might consider your smarmy, meaningless tract in an almost positive way. At least you may not have your next salad garnished with Ex-Lax powder.
I thought you had to declare tip income to get taxed on it, at least here in Canada. But I don’t know.
Nonetheless, in many places the waitstaff have to tip out the bussers and kitchen staff a fixed rate.
So if you stiff your waiter, you fuck ’em.
I thought of another one:
Syggyx, you couldn’t convince a horny dog to fuck your leg if you waxed it with Alpo.
That’s your justification? I’m not perfect, so excuse me for being a bigot?
You really need to start treating those plastic drycleaning bags as a toy. Or stop. However much you’re treating them as a toy, it’s not the correct amount.
Blondin said:
I actually have seen exactly such a sign. Just once. A long time ago. Somewhere in California, IIRC. I believe it was connected with the employees being unionized, which is pretty unusual for a restaurant.
I tend to calculate 15% then round up. Occasionally I’ll cut it down for particularly incompetent service but that’s rare. A little more for good service is more common. Mr. Xian who left that “tip” is both a jerk and a counterfeiter.
As for Felix’s question – and this is great – they are almost all Foxnews, teabagger, cut taxes for the rich republicans. Convinced that healthcare (which is not included in their compensation package) reform will somehow do something bad. And that they are just minutes away from being rich guys too. Oppression works best when it is self imposed.
PS, I tip based upon service expectation and size of my group. So I tip $10 for a dinner, $5 for a lunch of breakfast, $2 for a cart and $5 for a delivery, and more if I’m having them serve more than myself. Of course, if the bill is more than $50, it gets complicated and I’ll do a 15-25% tip instead, usually around 20%. I know it’s cheap on the delivery, and most fast-food places don’t allow tipping.
I just got annoyed that I was tipping 20% for dinner and getting the same service if the food was $50 or $15 and it just didn’t make sense that I shouldn’t tip the latter one the same.
peterh:
But they consider the witnessing to be far more valuable than real money. Reall money may keep a roof over your head and food on your table, but a relationship with the zombie means that, even if you starve or freeze to death, you get to spend eternity basking in the glow of god, waving palm fronds, and singing endless choruses of “Hallelujah!” The wait staff should fall down on their knees and praise the diner’s generosity and . . .
Sorry. I can’t keep this up. It is actually painful to type.
It looks like Bozo Bob has reached the depths of stupidity called concern trolling, first definition. He’s pretending to be an atheist to really be a rabblerouser. Do everyone a favor Bozo Bob, stop posting your lies here. Stick to being a real godbot, who repeats talking about their imaginary deity and mythical/fictional babble using stock memorized phrases for a given stimuli. Just what one would expect from a robot. All programming, no thinking.
Sili @ 37:
It’s a fairly small town (under 10,000) so I knew most of the players through my family or through school. The ones I didn’t know were identified by either their clothing choices (Baptist women and girls always wore long skirts past the knee, Unitarians were very casual) or self-identified with some version of “Are you following us today?” (I have no idea, but every single denomination played this game every.single.week. of being surprised to see fellow worshippers.)
I got several of these while I was waiting tables in Ohio ($2.13 an hour back then!) Fuck fuck fuckety fucking assholes. Guess what, I’m not waiting tables in a shitty low end family steakhouse because taking your abuse and cleaning after your demonspawn is fun. Your annoying little tract won’t buy diapers.
At least here in Washington there is no such thing as “tip wage”, and the minimum wage is higher than the federal one. Someone who works at a high-end restaurant and does well can make halfway decent money.
We faggots aren’t going anywhere because of your trashy opinion, Bob. And we aren’t going to let you stop us from marrying either, Bob. You know what? You can go fuck yourself right now and stay away from Pharyngula. You are not welcome here with that bigotted attitude.
My sister worked for about five years at a high-end restaurant in the DC area. Back in the late 80s, early 90s, she reported $70 to $90k per year. A fourtop could easily hit $1,000. She ‘earned’ about $2.25 an hour and, after reporting all her tips (she got audited a couple of times when working at a different restaurant), her paycheck was often minus several hundred dollars. And she had two grand tables leave Christian tracts as tips. It helped her to imaging new places to put her high heels. (She is now a wine distributor and a second level samoyed — no more waiting tables)
Bob Stevensson
Bless your heart.
second level samoyed? please tell us that was an attempt at a joke or that you meant Sommelier.
Sandi:
Right. Sommelier. Close enough. I knew it was something like that.
Eternal salvation doesn’t help pay the bills now. Besides, statistically speaking, it’s most likely that the waiter is already a believer, and all they’ve done is found an excuse to cheap out.
@Felix 53:
I wonder if the OWS and similar movements could be the initial rumblings of such a revolution.
Living in Aus, I had heard the USA minimum wage was pretty low, but judging by the appalling working conditions outlined above, it would seem social change is desperately required pretty soon. Good Luck!
I supposed it was possible she bred the dog breed. Who knows, do wine and dogs mix? :-)
Also, $2.65 an hour? Fuck that for a joke! This makes it even worse, and the worst part of it is I bet the person who did trhis feels like they’ve done a good thing too. Fucking fuckers!
A second level samoyed?
…
I don’t get it.
Well, I think dog is a red meat…
You now, one of them there wine speciesists?
Azkyroth, some dog lovers are gonna hate ya for that one.
Truth be told tho’ dog is a meat animal in some places. I’ve always wanted to try it, but I doubt I’d eat dog on a regular basis. (I have three little dogs, all elderly, and beloved companions, so this ‘experiment’ is not likely to happen soon.)
You have to wonder if this would stop if, every time a waiter found one of these, he wrapped a rock in it and heaved it through the window of the local evangelical church late one night.
You stiff workers out of a ten-spot, they cause your church more than that in damages.
Oh, well, it’s ok since nobody is perfect!
Wait…are you one of those yahoo.com trolls?
$2.65 seems very low. Here in CA (LA) I haven’t seen people being paid lower than the minimum wage (I’ve worked in several restaurants in my time, once as a waiter).
Except that stiffing the wait staff is legal (unethical, but legal). Vandalism, destruction of property, and hate crimes are all illegal.
Oh yeah. I’ve seen this shit.
I grew up in a small town, largely religious. The restaurants in town fell into two categories: chains by the interstate mostly serving travelers and local-run places serving locals.
Tipping with tracts happened at the local-run places, mostly people leaving tracts for waitstaff that were known to belong to the “wrong” church (i.e. one that the diner didn’t attend). People who were especially prone to pulling this shit tended to have surcharges added to their bills the next time they came.
Tipping with tracts at the chain restaurants by the interstate got you chased into the parking lot by the manager, while he/she screamed obscenities. One guy – who got out before getting caught but payed with his credit card – got the cops called on him for theft of services.
Small towns are incredibly insular and are cruel to you if you step out of line, but if you keep in line you will get taken care of.
___
Bob, you can kiss my big dyke ass. I don’t give a rat’s ass what you think of me.
I can remember my mother telling me about a job she had where she got 1.25/hr and that was good pay (in like 1968). Hereabouts the min is 8.67/hr which works out to about $295/wk at full time. Now if I could only get past the interviewer and get a damn job!
Why do people get paid $2.65 an hour and have to rely on ‘tips’?
The employer should have to pay a reasonable hourly rate. Don’t you have unions to protect workers from cheapskate employers?
Since this thread has gone all over the place, I would like to ask the members to consider the following. Originally, I wrote it in a letter to Dr. Myers. I believe that was yesterday. While awaiting his response, I ask for your consideration.
Dear Dr. Myers,
We spoke on the telephone about one week ago. I would like first to
paraphrase for you the words of the late Carl Sagan (“Pale Blue Dot”,
1994):
a religion whether old or new,that stressed the spirituality of Nature as revealed by science,might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the traditional faiths.
Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.
I have developed such a religion (in which the scientific study of Nature leads to spirituality), and would like to post about it on your Pharyngula blog. “Aletheism, the Religion of Truth”, is based on four principles:
1. Data locuta est, causa finita est; “when the evidence has spoken, the matter is settled”. Evidence (data) is reliable information drawn from natural phenomena. Data is sacred in Aletheism.
2. All ideologies (systems of belief) are based on traditions, dogma, or fantasies of the human mind, rather than evidence of the natural world. Therefore no religious or political ideology can lead the seeker to Truth.
3. The doorway to Aletheism is ideoclasm: the smashing of the aspirant’s beliefs with the hammer of evidence. Ideoclasm is not simply the entrance; it is a daily practice for Aletheist disciples. Only Truth must be allowed to inhabit the Aletheist’s mind.
4. Scientific study of natural phenomena and meditation in the wilderness of Nature reveal the magnificence of the universe and of this precious “pale blue dot” on which we are privileged to live. Thus the disciple of Aletheism enters a state of natural spirituality.
Regards,
John Billings
904-333-8522
Partly because of the way that the phase-out of locomotive firemen was handled, and partly due to a concerted and organized effort by most corporations and the GOP, unions in the United States have been so vilified that less than half of blue collar and service workers are unionized. The big unions today included the teacher’s unions (which is one big reason that conservatives have a bug up their asses about public education) and federal, state, and local employees (which is one big reason that conservatives have a bug their asses about public employees). Very, very, very few restaurant workers are unionized outside of major cities (and even there it is mainly the larger companies).
Albert from Oz:
*laughs*
You’re funny! Unions?! This is AMERICA.
John Freethinker:
Fuck off.
I really don’t understand not tipping well. You’ve spent the money on the food, go ahead and spend a little bit on the service. I figure if I have the money to eat out, I’m already doing better than most of the waitstaff who are making that $2-3 an hour (and get taxed on 15% tips even if they don’t make that much), I can afford an extra few dollars to round out the tip to a decent amount. Heck, it’s not often you get to feel like a big spender just by adding three or four dollars to your total to bring it up to a 20 or 25% tip, and you get to know you made a server feel a little bit better about their lousy shift.
I’ve been too poor to tip, and I solved that by not going to restaurants where people serve me. I’ll admit to not tipping well when I was in college, but I was a stupid privileged teenager and I can’t go back and change it. What I have done is tip decently since I learned better.
Carlie,
I’ve heard people argue that they deserve nice things, and leaving a 15-20% tip on a meal at a nice restaurant makes the trip too expensive.
This infuriates me. In my opinion, if you can’t afford to leave a tip, you can’t afford to eat there. Period.
Their tips are taxed before the level of income is actually declared by the taxpayer at what amounts to an arbitrary level? I’m at a loss for words to describe how despicable that is. To clarify for comprehension (and correct me if I’m mistaken): not only do servers in America make piddly earnings that essentially reduce them to living conditions well below the (probably too low) Canadian low-income cutoff point (~22 000$), their tips, in some cases, are also taxed and at a fixed rate?
Please, please, don’t tell me that even though their income is so low they still actually pay taxes and don’t get an income tax reimbursement for taxes that automatically come off their paychecks? I’m scared to find out myself, because frankly, I’ve been particularly angry with social injustices today and I think I’ve probably had enough.
I can’t even imagine living on minimum wage myself and in Ontario it’s 10.25$ (standard), 9.60$ (student) and 8.90$ (bar tender) right now. 2.65$ is just an incomprehensibly low amount of money. It must literally be impossible to live on it; I really can’t imagine it. The American standard of living cannot be that much lower than Canada’s that somehow 2.65$ per hour is enough to live on. What the fuck gives?
I know I’m really late to the party, but as a former waiter, this comes from the heart.
Anyone that leaves us that shit is a fucking bastard. Even the Christian waiters hate it when they are tipped Jesus. Serious, if you want to talk to me about Christ, leave me a decent fucking tip and tell me directly.
I might actually hear you out, if I’m not busy, in the mood, and you weren’t a dick. But attempting to hide your cheapness behind the facade of religion is an insult to my fucking hard work. Besides, lying to get someone to read your garbage doesn’t make a great moral foundation.
For those that were never waiters, those fucking things are more common than you would think.
I mean, really. That person has just spent upwards of half an hour or more catering to your every whim, bringing you drinks, carefully writing down your specific request on the food you want and how you want it prepared, listening to you if you complain about the food after it gets there, checking on you every few minutes just to see if you want anything else, and you’re going to get all up in arms about whether you leave them three dollars or get all expensive and go up to four? Jeez. The older I get, the less tolerance I have for fussy snots who like to order waitstaff around and then not leave good tips.
No, they are not unionized. Yes, they are still paid less than $3 an hour in many places. No, there seems to be no good way to change this systematically. You might as well try to have universal health insurance (ha!). So leave a damned tip already. If they suck? Then leave them the minimum 15%. If they’re good, give more.
Thomathy:
Yep. Exactly how it works.
Paychecks for negative amounts of money are not unheard of for waitstaff, once the mandatory taxes have been deducted. In theory, yes, they do get reimbursement for this. Of course, tax refunds come annually in a lump sum, which is nice for big purchases, but useless when you’ve just gotten a paycheck for negative or few positve dollars and need to buy groceries.
Yes, although how exactly it’s done depends on the employer. In some places, if you keep exact count of your tips and get the employer to write it up every shift, you can then collect all of those receipts and use that as your taxable income. In many places, tips are shared among the back staff (cooks and table bussers etc) so the night’s tips are averaged out per person and receipts written that way. For sleazeball employers, of which there are many, they won’t go through the trouble of writing up receipts for everything and do the tax forms with a standard 15% for each employee from the amounts of food they each served regardless of how much money they actually got in tips. Some waiters do like this system better because if they get more than that they don’t get taxed on the overage, but for the most part it just screws everyone over.
PZ
Did you really talk to John Freethinker?
Really?
For how long?
You haven’t been around here much, have you?
You definitely haven’t been around here much.
That’s cop-out horse shit and you know it. Fuck off and never come back.
Albert:
LOL. No.
That’s how my sister got hit with a big fine when she was audited. Her tips averaged around 40% and she paid her taxes on the 15%. After being audited twice (odd that they IRS, under Reagan, went after wait staff and not, say, investment bankers or S&L executives), she began declaring every penny, every night, and even had to take an employer to court to force him to let her declare the full amount. She somethimes had paychecks in which she owed hundreds.
The only tip jobs I’ve ever had were whitewater raft guide and delivering pizza, both of which had decnt hourly/commission wages so it wasn’t that bad.
There are some places around here that pool tips — if you suck at waiting tables, you get more than your share of the tips and if you are good you get less than your share.
sandiseattle : I’ve eaten dog, nothing special, if you where not told you probably wouldn’t know so no big deal, especially if you are a “dog lover”, nothing to care about. Humans are meat eaters by nature.
Bob,
What the fuck is wrong with you?
Save us all from your nonsensical ramblings and go play in some traffic, asshole.
Well they bloody well need more practice from the evidence we keep seeing. It’s not like I have much respect for anything in their fairy tale but really, when a pretty sizeable chunk of their claimed deity’s words are about compassion…. fail, folks, just *fail*.
And Thomathy – what on earth are we supposed to call you now you’re gayer? People are only just getting the hang of gay, for pudding’s sake. Umm, how about ‘ebullient’? That’s a nice superlative.
No. Omnivores.
@ Sastra
They hope the reader will “see the Light” just by gazing at the Holy Words ™.
Typical evangelical behavior. “Read this: it says, Jesus should be with you!”
And then they are all disappointed then you don’t spontaneous fall on your knees.
In the cases of these fake bills, there is a second, more vicious layer: greed. These people are offered a good pretext (evangelize) for not tipping (and thus keeping their money). How to rationalize not to give that is due.
If I had more faith, I would see in these fake bills the work of the devil. First they tempt believers into greed and hubris, and then they make upset workers curse the holy words.
Hell is paved with good intentions. And self-delusion.
Some of them really do see this as the ultimate act of compassion. Saving someone from eternal damnation is far more compassionate than making it possible for them to feed their children. Absolute bollocks, but some do see it this way.
Father Ogvorbis, OM: Delightfully Machiavellian says:
No. Omnivores.
Ah, yes you are right Father, Omnivores, we eat everything (including meat), nothing we should forget. And people shouldn’t have issues with dog just because they have some personal connection with one specific animal, that is just silly.
I promise you, the same person condemning eating dog have no issue with eating chicken or pig, shows hypocrisy.
Bob
That picture of the plate and bill looks like it might have been taken in someone’s dining room. Is it possible it was not actually left as a tip?
@24 You self-righteous prig. Do the world a favor. stay in your mother’s basement with your microwavable TV dinners. I bet you don’t even help her pay her electric bill. Admit it, you are just plain cheap. But, hey, you can take it to heaven with you…can’t you?
Esteleth, Carlie, that’s …depressing. I’m stuck on, ‘can’t even imagine’. I can understand the part where tips are shared with back-staff or with all staff-
For instance, when I worked for a coffee shop in my teen years, all the tips were collected and dolled out to every non-management employee individually. Of course, since they’re not taxable income, a non-management employee had to be given the time to do the tips. I know this is common, but it’s not necessary. There are also cases where wait staff are expected to pay a certain percentage (usually on the order of 5%) of their tips for the staff that can’t be tipped. This always seemed fair to me considering that everyone made the same minimum wage and everyone contributed in some way to the customers’ experience (some more than others).
-But what you’re describing is just unfair and plain wrong. Oh, I think I could have handled a bit of proselytising when I worked for the coffee shop, as tipping didn’t affect my minimum standard of living. I can’t imagine (that’s getting old) earning not enough to live on and being proselytised to, instead of tipped, an act that might make the difference between making rent or affording sustenance.
Seriously, you Americans need to fix that. No one should have to rely on a custom in order to maybe have enough money to live on. That’s fucked up.
Bob Stevensson
Bob Stevensson, you are a bigot. Fuck off and take your homophobia with you. This place won’t be a good place for a homophobic turd like you. I will ensure it. That is a threat.
They tipped John 3:16? OMFSM!
Oh and Bob or would you prefer the name Twoface
shut the fuck up
syggyx says:
Your a dick. At least people are working and providing a service for you, it is the least you can do. They could be out there robbing your stiff ass. If the system is wrong you should not punish the people scraping by to earn a living for it. If you are unable to tip than don’t, but getting others to rally around??? For what? To change the “system” fucktard?
And what about the FAKE 10 dollar bill? You think its okay to fake tips as well?
Your a dick.
chigau (reallyanything) says:
Really chigau? Am I missing something?
I am not afraid of you gayer, and threaten people who have not done anything, Grow Up dude. Perhaps taking Jesus in your heart would make you a better person eh? But as you want to be gay, I guess that can be a problem, make a choice I guess, for a few moments of gay sex alive, or accept Jesus Christ and live forever in Heaven?
I guess a few moments sex is worth condemnation forever, Am I right?
Tim rowledge, Ersatz Haderach, call me what you will, just don’t go trying to change the future …if a sub-par Haderach is even capable of such a feat …
Oh, shut the fuck up, Bob. Your self-righteous, holier-than-thou attitude may work with your misogynist pals, but it doesn’t here.
And guess what, asshole, we are all hypocrites. Some small time, some big time.
I’m a hypocrite in that, when they were still in school, I felt a lot more comfortable with the idea of my son dating than with my daughter dating. Hypocrisy.
You, however, are in with the biggest of the big time hypocrites. Love the sinner, but I don’t want a faggot near me. Charity for the poor, but not if they are black/latino/immigrants/single moms/whatever. Gods rewards those who work hard, but you don’t have to tip the wait staff, or even lobby for a living wage. Care for the sick, but say no way to actual useable health insurance reform. Help the infirm, but gut social security. The radical Christian right is the antithesis of the supposed teachings of the mythical rabbinical rabble-rouser.
You call me a hypocrite? I accept that I am one; at least I am willing to admit my hypocrisy. But knock this shit off.
Are you happy? you got a reaction from a regular? I got pissed off at you and your shit-eating grin*? That what you were looking for? That is the definition of an internet troll, you asshole. Go find some fertile ground and find a way to lie under it.
* On anything but a dung beetle, a shit-eating grin is just wrong.
You grow up child. Anybody who is homophobic is trapped in immaturity. It also goes along with immaturity of believing without evidence in imaginary deities and mythical/fictional holy books.
If you are so mature Bozo Bob, explain to the blog how the Redhead’s gay cousin marrying his partner effects our 35+ year marriage. Be specific…
Bob: You seem to still be commenting, rather than fucking off. Please remedy that situation.
And just so that we’re crystal clear: No one here is afraid of your imaginary sky fairy and his imaginary punishments for people who do certain things with their genitals.
Infinite123Lifer – you have to read “Bless your heart” in the tone in which it is usually communicated. “Bless your heart” is what one says in the south when at a loss for how to deal with the stupidity standing directly in front of one.
Thomathy:
The country’s been fucked up for a long time. I assume you’ve heard income inequality is a huge problem here? Yeah, that wasn’t a joke. This is just one instance.
Father Ogvorbis, OM: Delightfully Machiavellian says: What the Fuck are you on about? I was one of the ones PROMOTING TIPPING HERE you moron!
I dont give latinos or negros? I gave a nigger TODAY tip, damn your out of it. But considering you dont read what I said earlier and say the OPPOSITE of what I say, well, whats the point.
Bob
There actually is a union for restaurant workers. fairly strong in some states, but weak to nonexistent in “right to work” states. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_work_state
In many states it is all but impossible to get a union going.
In a more ideal world, labor unions would be unnecessary — employers would pay everyone a decent wage without the club of collective bargaining compelling them to.
Infinite123Lifer
re: Bless your heart.
I few months ago we, here, had a fairly lengthy chat about insults.
It was revealed that in certain parts of the USA, saying “Bless your heart” to someone was a very gentile, Christian, Southern way of saying, “you are a meat-head, go play in traffic”.
Sometimes these meme-like things do not persist.
Bob,
You provide a fine example to others of the bigotry of xians. Or is it just your sky daddy that is the bigot, and you just parrot his prejudices?
Is heaven full of hateful people like you?
Bob:
You stand with the evangelical Christians with regards to gay marriage. Read what I fucking wrote, you moron. I wrote that you are in with the biggest of the big time hypocrites and then listed some of the big time hypocrisy of those with whom you agree about gays. I did not write that you were guilty of all of these; I did write that you have hitched your wagon to a group who participates in some of these hypocrisies. Learn to read, asshole.
Bobby Stevensson wrote:
Jesus fucking Christ. Can you please proof-read your posts before you hit the ‘submit comment’ button? I want to make fun of what you actually say, not your incoherence.
Either that or just fuck off.
Bob, not going off and fucking himself:
You’ll be dead soon enough, so you can’t condemn people forever.
Carlie’s “bless your heart” explanation was ♥er than mine.
——-
Bob Stevensson
Does your priest know you have stolen the communion wine?
“Why do people get paid $2.65 an hour and have to rely on ‘tips’?”
In short, because restaurant owners/corporations can get away with it. I don’t know how the whole “tips=your fucking wages” got started, but I know why it survives: if you’re a manager or owner of a restaurant, you have cheap labor. More importantly, it’s LEGAL to have cheap labor. Wages affect profits, so the lower the wages, the bigger the profits. It’s simple, if obscene and immoral.
Here’s what I don’t get about tipping: generally speaking, when you go work for a business, customers give their money to the business, and the business in turn pays their employees a set amount. It’s not arbitrary–you know you will make X-dollars/Y-hours worked. But I don’t understand how restaurants are allowed to get away with customers directly paying their employees’ wages, which are completely arbitrary and depend on things a server has no control over.
“Gay Sex Alive!” would be a great name for a Broadway play.
Gee, Bob, and did that nigger adequately kiss your ass for the tip you so generously doled out, or was he one of those uppity niggers on top of it? Jesus on a stick, but you’re vile. I’m pretty sure calling people niggers isn’t going to help your Christian witness very much.
An equal opportunity bigot, i see. Care to announce your filthy irrational prejudice against any more groups today? i know your sky daddy doesn’t think much of those evil womenz.
oooh bugger
gentileGENTEEL
dammit
@85,
Well, if “peasant” can be a character class, why not a Siberian tribe? :)
Why is it that every time you scratch the surface of a bigot, you find an even bigger bigot underneath? There’s never a heart of gold underneath; just a little prodding and they start spitting about niggers and shit.
Guess what Bozo Bob? Your imaginary deity made those folks gay. Either your imaginary deity isn’t omnipotent, a requirement for a deity, or you have to learn how to deal with gays, as your imaginary deity made them. Your choice Bozo Bob, but you and your imaginary deity are looking pretty inept at the moment.
Still no evidence for your imaginary deity, and inerrant babble Bozo Bob. You can’t even handle the first thing you must do. Show that your presuppositions aren’t wrong….
Wow. Bob is racist, sexist, homophobic, and stupid.
He is a perfect example of a True Christian. tm
(how do you make the tm circle?)
Except that stiffing the wait staff is legal (unethical, but legal). Vandalism, destruction of property, and hate crimes are all illegal.
The law, in its magnificance, allows both low-income workers and smug evangelicals to fuck over low income workers without fear of retaliation.
I hate to point out the obvious, but respect for the rule of law is predicated on a working social contract. If I was working 50 hours a week for the privilege of being allowed to slowly starve to death, I’d consider that social contract broken, and start considering the law more a guide to what you can get away with rather than an ethical obligation.
Bob:
… the fuck??
Even ignoring the incredibly hateful slurs in your posts, what in the ever-loving hell are you even trying to say? Gaudily displaying your third grade education isn’t impressing anyone here.
A piece of advice Bob: just fuck right off. If someone has to explain to you why using “nigger” or “faggot” is fucking wrong on every fucking level, then you should have your internet privileges revoked until you either learn how to interact with other adults or you die of old fucking age.
mythusmage, I asked you this on the “commenting changes coming” thread that you flounced out of as soon as people brought up some of the vile comments you made in various past threads. Do you repudiate your defense of Herman Cain’s history of sexual assault, or do you stand by it?
Some ass-flavored funnel cake of a blood-drinker deserves to see Jeebus a LOT sooner than he intended
Bob Stevensson, read this closely and as best you can, you semi-literate asshole: I don’t think you’re afraid of me. You obviously do not understand the meaning of the term ‘homophobia’, because I’m not using it to describe your fear, extant or not, but you and you’re bigoted, insipid words.
My name, Bob Stevensson, is at least Thomathy and unless you know better, you had best refer to me by my entire nym or not at all. I don’t think you have a right to call me gayer. Somehow, I can’t help but imagine you consider a slur. After all, you have a problem with faggots. Well, bigot, I have a problem with you.
I’ll spare you the details of my life and the sex that I have, as good, fun and interesting as they are, and tell you instead that I have only once had the experience of meeting a person like you in real life and that was some ten years ago. You know, even though I was 16, that asshole didn’t have a chance. You can’t scare me with threats of hell, Bob Stevensson and you can’t intimidate me by calling me faggot or gay and you certainly can’t shame me by diminishing the length of time that I engage in sex.
It really is sad that you were born and raised in an ignorant culture that indoctrinated you into believing any part of that extremely poorly written and disjointed story the Bible as true. It’s really sad that you were inculturated into a society with puritanical foundations on sex and a strange and unhealthy fixation on the sex that other people are having and whom they choose to share their hearts and lives with. It’s so sad that you don’t know the joys of being raised in the values of respect and love for other people independent of their religion and sexuality, and whatever else you hate others for. Finally, it is literally tragic that you don’t know how to see other people as people, who have, or should have, every right and privilege that you were born to. I pity you, Bob Stevensson.
Now, take a thankfully dead porcupine and insert it quill-end forward into your asshole, fuck off and leave this blog.
(Tethys:
™ gives you ™.)
For Carlie and chigau (本当):
Awe, I see. Noted. There is a whole chat about insults…I am off to read the wizardry :)
Jesus Motherfucking Christ in a leather sling, somebody actually used the word “nigger” for reals? (Yes, “faggot” too, but that’s less surprising.)
Woah.
@Tethys, ™ is “& trade ;” with the spaces removed.
Awe, one of the great questions of the world today.
Bob, would you submit yourself; or your brain, we really only need that brain of yours, to a physical exam? I suggest putting a loaded shotgun to your head and splattering your meat all over the walls, we can come and pick up the pieces of you later. Your going to heaven anyways right? So, what do you say?
Albert @ 95:
A few states have laws that require serving staff to be paid regular minimum wage($7.25/hr). Federal labor law sets the minimum wage for servers at $2.13/hr, and some states pay more than that, but less than non-server wages. The idea, in a nutshell, is that tips provide the balance to equal standard minimum wage. Link to the Dept. of Labor’s Minimum Wage for Tipped Employees
$2.65 an hour!?! WTF.
I thought slavery was abolished in the US.
I think it’s more common in the South (and so is accurately-enough characterized as Southern), but it’s not confined to that area.
As a child, I received this blessing from many a friend’s parent. :)
Add. to my #131: No, I don’t think 2.65 /hr is a fair wage, even with tips. And yes, I consider “tipping” with Jesus junk to be a scummy thing to do. For Mr Pink and his comrades: let’s face it, you don’t give a rat’s ass about the below-standard wages, you simply don’t want to pay out more money to someone. Doesn’t matter if they bust their ass getting you your order promptly and correctly, you’re too fucking cheap to show appreciation for the service.
Audley
Thanks! ™
Bub must be drunk. Everyone knows that you don’t tip negroes, you tip cows. (Oy vey…negroes! *shakes head in disgust*)
I detest bigots but I am not a fan of people who fantasize about violence either.
@148,
Flounce? Please don’t impute actions I did not commit.
1. I’m very much against treating people like dirt.
2. I have yet to see any proof that Herman Cain did indeed harass women. I have heard accusations, but I have seen no evidence…
And a settlement out of court proves nothing. More often than not it merely shows that one party would much rather see another person go away, rather than go through the hassle of legal hearings. Let’s face it, sometimes people do really stupid things.
I don’t know enough about the situation to make any sort of statement, and I will wait until I have information.
Bob, you are a worthless low-grade shit-stirring troll.
Please kindly fall face-first onto an exposed floor nail.
My brain is doing that unpleasant jumping-around thing today.
This conversation is reminding me of something I read about slave owners in the antebellum South: they claimed that they were better people than industrialists up North – because the slaves actually had roofs over their heads and food. They might be property, but they were treated better than factory workers during the Industrial Revolution.
The thing is, the slave owners weren’t completely wrong. One thing that kept worker’s wages so depressed in that era was that there was something lower than poverty wages.
Relatedly, did anyone hear about Gingrich’s blather today about how school districts should lay off all cleaning staff except for one senior janitor and hire children? Vomit.
This from the man who believes the Patterson bigfoot film? In spite of one of the filmers claiming it was faked? You wouldn’t know evidence if it bit you in the crotch.
Yep. Nobody thinks hydrophobic molecules are afraid of water, do they?
In recent years I have gotten some schadenfreude from noticing the way that homophobes get actually scared that someone else will think they’re scared of gay people.
I’m not sure this fear-of-being-thought-fearful is itself socially useful, but it sure does make me smirk.
Wow, Bob. If I was still a Christian, or theist in any shape or from, I would be tripping over myself to get the fuck away from you as fast as I possibly could.
I mean, if one could weaponize stupidity and bigotry, you would be one lethal fucking dumbass bigot.
Speaking of evidence, I have yet to see MM provide any evidence that he is not a clueless fucking moron who needs a dead porcupine stat!
EVIDENCE?! What evidence do you need?
That type of shit is the kind of thing I expect to hear from an MRA blathering about how “she wanted it” and “it was totally innocent” and “bitch set me up.”
And if you seriously think that corporations pay out serious cash to make sexual harassment claims go away, I’ve got a piping hot bridge connecting two boroughs to sell you. Much more frequently, the claimant is pressured, scolded, and harassed until they drop the claim. Sheesh. Are you that ignorant?
If anyone wants to know, while the US minimum wage is $7.25, raised considerbly in the last twenty years:
http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/wages/minimumwage.htm
It is still legal to pay rotating kid’s half that:
http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/wages/subminimumwage.htm
And the minimum wage for service workers is $2.13:
http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/wages/wagestips.htm
The gage is ‘$30 per month’. The difference between one wage and the other, for a full time worker? $901.22. So if a worker gets $30 of tips, their employers can pay them $900 less.
Does that make any sense?
Gayer, which I will refer to you as Thomathy, and yes, I do see it as a slur.
You can continue insult me and act like a child, I will simple ignore it and pretend you are talking to me like a normal person, just so you know, hopefully, with time, you will mature.
Now, I see faggots as sinners, however much two male faggots have sex with eachother, they cant get pregnant…. Can they? A clear sign that it is a defect and not right.
Now, I made it clear, I was Honest, I DO NOT LIKE FAGGOTS, I do not condemn you, I hope you find Christ, but I will not pretend you are “natural”, as you are not. I wish the best and hope you find the good and make the best of your life.
But please, stop insulting me and make purposeless remarks towards me, try to act mature, please.
The Best
Bob
uh, is that bannhammer oil I smell? :-)
So, what’s your opinion on het sex with birth control? When one or both partners are sterile for whatever reason?
I’m resisting the temptation to link to mpreg slash.
Oh, and you’ve got a LOT of nerve demanding that people be “mature” around you. Go back to the third grade.
For you_moster:
I know, its uncharacteristic of me as well, and it was hard to write. Personally, I detest violence. I would be appalled if my family knew I wrote that. I am going to go tell them that I made a mistake and am wrong. Thats the first time I have ever stooped to such a level.
If I cannot control myself after reading Bob Stevensson than I need a reality check. I am putting myself in time-out for 24 hours.
I apologize to everyone including Bob Stevensson.
You, child, are a homophobe and a bigot. Just like your imaginary deity. Loser all around Bozo Bob. You grow up…
PZ! clean-up on aisle six. Haz-mat gear is required due to toxic homophobia with intrusive fantasizing.
This
from the Christian, bless his heart, who uses the incredibly offensive epithets “nigger” and “faggot” with full knowledge that those with whom he attempts to communicate do not want those words used in this enviroment, and with full knowledge of the violence and hatred which has, historically and presently, accompanied those words. Irony is an understatement.
Seriously, Bob, fuck you. Go find somewhere else to spew your hateful shit.
Go hang out at fucking YouTube or /b/, asshole.
Bob Stevensson
I hope tomorrow when you sober-up you will read this.
How do you feel about lesbians?
They are not even mentioned in the bible.
Bozo Bob, maturity starts when you acknowledge you can be wrong. You can’t be wrong, hence you are a spoiled child. You show maturity by realizing you are deliberately offending people, and you need to stop doing that. You do that by ceasing your fuckwitted posts here, delete the bookmark to Pharyngula, and you fade into the bandwidth like a mature person. But, your childish temper tantrums Bozo Bob, will continue until the banhammer falls on your sorry and bigoted posts, as you are that childish and stupid.
mythusmage:
Accusations are evidence.
The insults will stop coming your way, you discompassionate fuck, as soon as you stop saying hurtful, bigoted, and ignorant things. And it is the mature thing to do to denounce hateful irrationality.
Bob Stevensson, stop insulting me. Stop it. Leave this blog now. Are you incapable of seeing that you are insulting me? Or does that not matter to you as much as the appearance of this faggot not being insulting toward you? You’re on the wrong end of this exchange, Bob Stevensson and you need to stop posting here.
Leave this place, go proselytise somewhere else. Take your Jesus and your Bible and your disingenuous well wishes for the salvation of gays and go away. Just go away.
A total moron fuckwit says:
That’s blisteringly stupid. I guess when an older married couple bangs, and the women is post-menopause, she’s defective so their fucking is an abomination.
Or it is just selective. I guess God really hates it when people don’t get pregnant, and possibly decided that a group of people needed to be saddled with homosexuality so that he could punish them for being homosexual.
That, or you and your ilk look to bronze age mythology to justify your bigotry.
Bob, you are a bad person and you make the world a worse place.
Please imagine a new self to be.
Tethys @145:
If you have a Mac, ™ is option-2.
On topic, at least Minnesota changed its laws to ban “server wages” a few years ago–servers get minimum wage here (for what it’s worth…). It got pushed past Pawlenty Wrong, but I’m sure the current Legislature would overturn it if they could figure out how to get it past Gov. Dayton…
Bob, what do you think that Jesus thinks of your conduct on this thread? I think he’d be pretty sad.
I DO NOT LIKE FAGGOTS,
And no-one here doubts that you think about them an awful lot more than any straight man should…
In order to further de-rail this thread, I offer the opinion that using “child” as an insult doesn’t work, most of the time.
Children do sometimes try to insult one another (usually of the “poopeyhead” variety) but they are not homophobic, racist or theistic.
Until someone teaches them.
I think changing the future is probably a lot more practical that changing the present; after all we all do a little bit of it with every action we take. Changing the *present* now that’s a trick and a half. You’d have to have some way of reaching back in time with enough precision to cause the present to become what you planned. Wow. I don’t think even anyone as utterly brilliant as Ken PigletRapist Ham is that smart. I mean, he’s smart, right? We’re constantly being told how smart he is and surely Real Christians(™) would never lie, any more than they would be douchenozzles with a server’s tip.
But I think if I try realllllllllllllllly hard I can just about …. yup, there we go. You’re not merely gayer, not simply fabulous, but ebullient. You have always been ebullient – a word of such wonderfulness that it actually deserves the old html flashing tag. I even up-subbed ante-filing.
Yours with a thumbs-up,
M’ad Dibbl’r
Nerd of Redhead Cheezes, of course I can be wrong, wtf? I made a point earlier that I make mistakes, we all do.
Just because, I take a time-out and want to apologize to everyone, If I insulted anyone it was not meant in that way, I simple formulated myself poorly. Once again, I wish everyone the best and I take a days “OFF”, I apologize to everyone for any poor remarks and I hope you accept it and understand that I am 100% genuine.
I am Sorry.
Bob
Phoenician in a time of Romans, I know you’re trying to be funny, but trying to insinuate homosexuality in someone as an attempt to insult them isn’t actually funny. There is nothing wrong with being gay. There is nothing wrong with being a straight identified gay man (though it’s a potentially psychologically harmful state of identity). Further, Bob Stevensson isn’t secretly gay, he’s a blatant, and proud, bigot and bully.
Bob Stevensson this is for you.
Tim rowledge, Ersatz Haderach, I have a whole internets for you!
Bob, now take that next step a mature man would, and fade back into the bandwidth. I don’t consider your apology sincere, and is a nonpology trying only to prevent your sorry ass from being thrown in the dungeon. So Bob, are you a man or a mouse…You can fade away…
@180
Accusations are assertions that need to be backed up with evidence. Darwin and Einstein made assertions regarding the universe, backed up with evidence. Creationists make assertions regarding the world they have no evidence to back it up with
Wow, there’s a sign you may be a douchebag. How do you prove that someone made unwanted advances? Not many states let you tape all conversations you’re having, as if that was even really likely.
Douchebaggery can be accidental. And yes, we don’t have ‘proof’ but we do have women willing to hurt their reputation still by laying accusations. We have multiple incidences. And that’s all we’ll ever have. You don’t, can’t, ask for proof. That’s a bar that’s impossible to meet.
Actually, tipping is unethical because you are supporting such flimsy primitive system. Problem first has to be severe enough for political will to happen and address the problem. By tipping you are postponing the solution of the problem.
It is pretty easy to convince people to stop tipping, Mr.Pink was on the right track in popularizing not tipping.
Bob Stevensson, I don’t believe you. Stick the flounce and never come back.
Bob.
that whole following one’s own advice is tough huh?
Oh looky thar, a classic not-pology from Bob.
“I didn’t mean hateful bigotry to sound like hateful bigotry. Why are you guys so meeeeean!”
I might point out that I don’t see the point of ganging up and insulting someone for their bigotry. They’re a bigot, just ignore them and call them out when they say something stupid, but don’t engage beyond that. Calling names just lowers you to their level.
I assume that people are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Until Herman Cain is found guilty, or admits to the crimes, I will consider him innocent of the charges laid against him.
I would extend the same courtesy to Ham and Hovind, because to deny them the right would mean my being denied the right should I ever be accused of a crime.
Monkeys could do your work, you should be ashamed of yourself. It is a simple matter of modular automation to replace the function of a waiter, like they have done in many places in Japan.
You should really think long and hard about your life. Your very job is a fucking social charity.
You must be new here.
Phoenician in a time of Romans, I know you’re trying to be funny, but trying to insinuate homosexuality in someone as an attempt to insult them isn’t actually funny.
I’m well aware of that – literally, my best friend is gay. I am a veteran of the Great Usenet Homosexual Floating Flamewar.
However, you are mistaking my aim. The research shows that the most rabid homophobes are suppressing their own homosexual urges. I am not making the comment as a yuck-yuck statement for the general audience; I am digging at the troll. I wanna see if a needle at that particular area reveals a soft spot.
Further, Bob Stevensson isn’t secretly gay, he’s a blatant, and proud, bigot and bully.
You’d be surprised. Have you ever heard of a Usenet kook called Gary Landers?
Gosh, Bob Stevensson, you DON’T LIKE FAGGOTS? Well, I don’t like you. Bye.
And you take it to a level of tinfoilhattery that gives me great pleasure and entertainment.
You don’t have a fucking clue what you’re talking about.
I ate here tonight, I’d love to see your cheap lame ass replace the server we had.
It’s a skill.
Is this thread moronic troll heaven or what?
Anybody else get that damn auto-starting UPS ad?
The US Postal Service is cheaper if you’re in the US.
“I gave a nigger TODAY tip, damn your out of it.
I DO NOT LIKE FAGGOTS”
…pity the shitsucker just got the boot. I was almost curious of his beef with “niggers” – specifically what universe did he live in where using such terms could get him anything but banned/slapped.
Fucking ignorant racist homophobic douchecake…
crissakentavr
Solidarity.
I generally do not have the stomach to argue with homophobes about their homophobia.
For the most part, I can argue with anybody about anything except that.
I kept writing and deleting things to say to Bob because it’s so stressful.
Seeing Bob receive a massive show of condemnation from others makes me feel more welcome here.
You are factually wrong about that, because racist and homophobic slurs really are worse than telling someone they’re just a plain ol’ piece of shit.
mythusmage,
since you are shitting out the same stupid arguments in two threads, I’ll post the pertinent part of my reply to you here as well.
Your point about having to wait for a trial before you apportion any aprobrium is stupid. I’ll repeat my Godwin from the thread on Sandusky:
People should be careful about condemning Hitler like they do. After all, Hitler killed himself before he had a chance to defend himself in court. What right to we have to denounce him unequivocally when he is still presumably innocent?
People are allowed to weigh the evidence available. Multiple people coming out accusing the same person of sexual assault is pretty compelling to me. Obviously, there needs to be a trial before legal repercussions, but my condemnation does not carry the weight of incarceration and so does not carry the same stringent burden of proof.
Just another tone troll.
@Bob Stevensson #190
If you really are sorry, you will go away and never return. Your presence here and your choice of words is disruptive and unwelcome.
Also, forming an opinion based off of the evidence available to the public in no way effects the burden the prosecution will have at trial.
You are a fool.
Yes. There’s a pathetic scattering of them.
I might add that I don’t know how Thomathy does it, but I’m envious. :)
Oh for fuck’s sake. Treat people with a little fucking respect, especially when they’re doing a job that you refuse to do for yourself.
1) Impoverish working-class people.
2) Wait for food riots to start.
3) ?????
4) Profit!
I did mean to insult Bob Stevenssen in that way. IOW Bob MY apology IS genuine.
After talking it over with some loved ones I have decided that I am so appalled by my own comment I have decided to not visit any blogs on my cell phone or any computers for one week exactly starting at 8:05pm this Monday evening and ending next Monday at 8:05pm.
Having lost people to suicide my remark is especially inexcusable.
It does not matter what others do, I need to have control over myself. I am very disappointed in myself.
Well, you did hit a very sensitive subject: workers actually earning enough to live.
Indeed, Og.
What, are we expected to not have a permanent underclass that’s one paycheck away from starving on the street? THAT’S SOCIALISM I SAY!
Maybe you need this. Some of the more smarmy lifeless robots I work with have had their pastors tell them they need to have it installed on the work laptops i issue them
I remember when being gay meant you were happy, and a faggot was a piece of firewood.
Yeah, I know, language evolves, but does it have to do so in my life time? :pout:
I can’t believe I am reading this psycho trash talk from Bob!:
Who the fuck cares what you like. We aren’t budging. Get the fuck out of here, Bob!
Who the fuck cares? Get the fuck out of here, Bob!
Fuck off Bob you stupid fucking bigot!
Hail Mary pass, but it’s too late. You lost the troll olympics. Bob got banned and you didn’t. At the very best, you’ll be getting silver.
Face it. You fail even at being an asshole.
I does appear to be attracting some truly loathsome type-specimens. Thanks for the clean-up PZ!
Oops. Too late, sorry. I didn’t see he had already been rightly booted down into the dungeon.
PiaToR has had this explained to him before.
He just doesn’t care.
Because he doesn’t have to care.
He’s not one of those who’ll get hurt.
Back to the subject of tipping, I read once that long ago you tipped when entering the restaurant under the premise you were buying good service. I don’t know why it changed (except for those times when customers didn’t feel like they got their money’s worth) and it may be a custom we should return to.
I’m not really sure about the logic behind tipping being a percentage of your bill. If I order the cheap entree and drink and someone else orders an expensive entree and drink, the staff still does the same amount of work (except for the cook) so why should the tips be any different? I can understand an increase if I ordered an appetizer and a drink from the bar because that’s more work. Same thing for a special order.
But the steak and the grilled cheese use the same amount of plates to be carried out and washed, why should the tips be different. That’s why we should go back to tipping first then ordering (and tipping more if the staff does a good job).
Shut the fuck up, mythusmage.
Really.
Just fucking quit trying to be cute.
FWIW, I don’t think anyone could have done a better job standing up to Pierce R. Butler and his fuckitude.
@213
What bothers me the most about you is your eagerness to miss the point. We had evidence for Hitler’s actions, we had proof. The proof against Caine has yet to be brought forth, note the difference, Harry Quick to Damn
Are you privy to the evidence in question? No. Why would you assume the allegations are false?
I was raped as a child. I don’t have any evidence. I was a fucking kid who was scared shitless and ashamed to do anything about it. Are you going to assume I’m a fucking liar?
No, just shut the fuck up. You aren’t in a position to tell us about standards of evidence, until you drop the bullshit about pseudoscience, bigfoot, reincarnation and believing in deities (and who knows what else).
——
Yep, the problem is that waiters and waitresses just haven’t suffered quite enough for fuckwitted douchebags like yourself. Here’s one way you can avoid exacerbating the problem: eat shit. You can do that at home, so no one will have to come in contact with you for any reason.
Or witty. Neither is working.
*facepalm*
It does appear, not I does appear. What a difference a consonant makes.
Aratina Cage, it’s never too late. :)
And ditto Tethys #227.
Since “gay” began to acquire it’s reference to homosexuality in the late 19th century, and was fairly common in the 1920s, and since “faggot” as an insult for homosexuality turned up in the very early 20th century, I estimate that mythusmage must be about 120 years old.
It’s about time for you to curl up and die, asshole.
Right because we all know this is some giant liberal conspiracy to trick everyone into voting for the republican because he’s black.
Or maybe not.
233 Update
And damn me for being concerned about the rights of others.
Thanks. But I actually did have to run away in the end. My departure from that thread was not a matter of boredom, lack of time, or forgetting to check it the next day. He taunted me sexually and I gave up. (I’m not sorry that I did, either. I made the best choice for myself.)
With Sancho Panza by your side, the people of La Mancha can sleep peacefully tonight.
@239
I did not know that, my apologies. It was not my purpose to insult anybody.
@240
You bone one goat…
It must be cold under that rock.
There is something really touching about grown-ups giving themselves a time-out.
I’m NOT being sarcastic.
I’m realy teary.
I wish there was more of this in meat-space.
And you’re a sexual harasser?
This is incomplete.
I thought you were supposed to be polymath, mythusmage?
From a Bayesian standpoint, the presence of an accusation is evidence.
It should make you adjust your priors.
So when you said
that was factually wrong. It’s not a matter of opinion. You do in fact have enough information to say:
“After learning of these accusations, it is more likely that Herman Cain committed sexual assault than I had previously estimated.”
Thanks, ahs ॐ =)
Bob was really lying the whole time anyway. If the server who got that stupid Christian gimmick instead of a tip had happened to have been gay and Bob knew that, I seriously doubt he would have barged in here with his high and mighty schtick about how caring of a person he is. I know it’s obvious to all of us, but I’ll just reiterate that he isn’t caring–he’s a hateful homophobic and racist bigot on top of being an idiot and a deluded Christian.
Thomathy wrote:
Better yet, go die in a fire.
@syggyx
For the sake of those who have the misfortune of having to serve you, I sincerely hope you frequent the same establishments on a regular basis, that the waitstaff know you by sight, and that they adulterate your food accordingly (in a purely harmless but appropriately disgusting fashion, of course).
Now, I’m going to ask you to briefly step into the role of a fully-grown human being with a properly developed sense of empathy: How would you like it if some pissant could capriciously decide to slash your pay to scratch some bullshit philosophical itch they had? Would it make you happy, sad, or perhaps angry to have less money to available to pay your bills? Tuition? Buy groceries?
This is for posterity so please, be honest.
From what I’ve seen he’s more of a polykook.
Infinite123Lifer,
I feel humbled by your apology. As Nerd was explaining to Bob in 179, the measure of your maturity is how you respond to making a mistake. When I slip-up in some future comment, and say something wrong and offensive, and you call me out on it, I hope I will handle it as admirably as you. You see Bob, that is how one grows as a human being. They take criticism (even if it is given in a harsh tone) and reflect on it, and make a change.
Forget that I said that I am “not a fan” of you.
@240
I note that the story in question addresses harassment claims that get settled out of court, it only mentions Cain’s cases as an introduction to the piece. It doesn’t specifically address Caine’s case.
Damn me for a romantic fool, I still say a person is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
Wait, are you suggesting that though Cain is mentioned that the settlement cases aren’t in reference to cases against him?
That it’s some journalism trick?
Bronze Dog #9
I had to read that twice. At a glance, it reads like the first line of a really bad pulp-fiction detective novel (in which the protagonist identifies himself to the reader). LOL.
* * *
If only Bob Stevensson were merely a Poe. There are more where he came from, unfortunately.
@249
Where is your proof? An Earth centric creationist can assert all he want that the Earth is the center of the Solar System, without evidence to support his claim it goes nowhere. We have courts because people like you would damn at the slightest word, and never consider the consequences.
Well, since PZ will soon ban me, let me end my sojourn here with this admonition;
If you must damn somebody, damn them based on the evidence, not on your anger. Anger fades and leaves you empty, evidence you can build on.
My apologies, Rev BDC is right and I got it wrong. The cases referred to were about Herman Cain. I leave you now to your commenting.
So does this mean you’ll stop defending Cain because of a lack of any evidence?
mythumage,
You do realize that testimonial from the victim IS EVIDENCE in the courts. You know, they do that whole call witnesses up to the stand where they tell the jury what happened, thing.
Numerous accusations from multiple people doesn’t look so good…
Wait, are you saying that in the case of the $45,000 settlement, since there was no trial, there is no way you could consider him guilty? Is every person who settles a claim innocent in your eyes?
That is not a very accurate way of characterizing the research, PiaToR, which you would realize if you tried reading your nebulously remembered citations.
Even if a homophobic bigot is more likely to have some same-sex attractions than the average person—and this point is far from settled already—it does not work out such that a homophobic bigot is more than 50% likely to be queer.
A homophobic bigot, like anyone selected at random from the general population, is still most likely to be straight.
Proof does not exist except in mathematics.
You mean evidence.
Accusations are evidence.
Think Bayesian, you dumbass.
LOL. Dick move, random Christian, dick move. Real money plus useless proselytizing? Sure. But no tip at all? You’re an ass.
And? This doesn’t mean the one you are confronting is.
Even so, what’s the point of accusing someone of being a gay when you’re trying to drive it through their skull that being gay isn’t something that can fuel an legitimate insult?
Turns out these things piss off Christians as well.
It looks like our old friend Ray Comfort is behind some of these shitty tracts.
mythusmage@210, Go USPS!
PZ@206, Bob Stevensson who? I love my killfile.
mythusmage@245, Sounds like a line I read out of a John Ringo novel.
still have never understood killfile
I really do hope that someone with that much crap for brains would be stupid enough to come back to the restaurant and our intrepid waiter/reporter recognizes the jerks and does things to their scrambled eggs that even Satan would blush at.
And? This doesn’t mean the one you are confronting is.
Thus the point of the needle – an experiment to see what reaction shows up. Alas, the results are hopelessly contaminated now.
Dear Ersatz Haderach, I am the Shout-Out Mapes . . . the housekeeper.
Jesus-Tap-Dancing-Christ. Thank PZ for that!!!
There’s a reason straight people try to perform this “experiment” more often than gay people do; there’s a reason Thomathy and I are not comfortable with you using gay sexuality in this way.
Please just stop it, stop trying to justify your game of “takes one to know one.”
You are not doing anything useful for anyone. You are just fucking around, and when the next violent homophobe beats up a queer to show that he’s no fucking pansy, you’re not going to be the victim.
You have absolutely no social justification for the game you’re playing, PiaToR. It’s nothing but a diversion for you.
Thomathy and I have explained reasons why we find it to be unjustified and dangerous.
Why does defense of your ego have to be the most important thing here? Why can’t you just shrug and admit that it’s really no big deal to you either way, so it would be no burden to you to respect these requests and just find a different way of picking on homophobes?
Phoenician:
Oh FFS, lose this crap, stat. Do you ever bother to think before you type? Don’t do this sort of thing again, where you’re using the idea of being gay as an insult. It’s disgusting.
Oh I’ve seen this before. I used to have a Christian friend (she had to stop talking to me a few years back because I’m a boy) who carried a wad of $100 notes from her church. Of course, they were fakes that instead carried the lovely Christian message of salvation on the back.
She said their main use was giving to buskers and the homeless.
Hey Bob,
Great post: “I am not perfect, I have issues with faggots, I admit, I do not pretend otherwise. I do not want them around me, I do not want them to marry, My own personal view, I do not claim to be perfect, no one is.”
Let me guess: you’re a product of incest, and you probably engage in it with with your mother or sister–perhaps a brother, cousin, or father as well. I suspect bad teeth and a few genetic imperfections from in-breeding. I also suspect you’re a high school drop out and beat the women in your life. In short, a typical christian loser.
You probably use the words nigger, spic, kyke and dyke as well. Bet it makes you feel powerful. Bet it makes you feel strong. I bet that power and strength plummet when you speak to middle class educated people. I bet you feel stupid, unimportant, and small. I imagine you felt that way right before you logged on to your old computer. Needed some juice I bet, so you came over to Freethoughts to insult a community of people who tend to be very well educated and talented with interesting lives. Bet that gets under your skin, Bob: gays having a superior life to yours. Makes you feel even smaller and more impotent than usual.
Well, good for you Bob: you keep on building yourself up by insulting a great and accomplished community. My community includes Francis Bacon, Da Vinci, Michelangelo, Alan Turning and a host of other talented accomplished men. Your community includes inbred, christians who know so little about anything that I’m surprised they can cross the street without getting hit by a bus.
Anyway,
Kisses sweetie
those tracts if they do convert anyone do so by guilting them into submission.
I do go to restaurants much because I can’t afford to tip.
the restaurant business is one of the most difficult business I know of to make work.
work is hard hours are bad the customers are fickle and cheap and the costs are high.
american christians are pathetic especially the ones that come here.
uncle frogy
not was left out
Surely the message would be more readily accepted (at least not thrown away in disgust)if they added a real money tip on top of this.
People, gave that “christian-bills” to the donation box of the nearest church.
They certainly would apreciate “christian-money”!
On the tip thing: I move around a lot, and can tell you that while tipping is expected in Canada and apparently included in the bill (!) at some US restaurants (used to be if you had a party of 10+, now it seems to be 5+…), in Belgium it’s actually considered offensive to leave a tip (rounding to the nearest euro, or 5, is OK though). Probably related to the restaurant wait staff being the owner and/or cook as well… Oh, and taxes are included in all the listed prices.
Stinks when I forget that I’ll have to basically add (between taxes and tip) 25% or more to the listed price in any North American restaurant. I find it interesting, though, that seems to disturb visiting Belgians even more than the unanticipated price increase is the phony ‘service with a smile’ attitude you get from the wait staff in NA restaurants. Completely weirds them out XD
Why am I not surprised?
syggyx, you aren’t even worth responding to, but if you do refuse to tip, you’re doing it wrong. The employer, who controls the wages, gets no harm from it. The correct way for you to protest is to stay the hell home and not eat out.
I wrote the post introducing Aletheism, and as I said, was “asking for your consideration”. Instead, all I received was foul-mouthed insult and a display of ignorance.
I would expect students of science and reason to be able to discuss our differences without recourse to such toddler-worthy tantrums, but the evidence shows that I am not dealing with reasonable people. Rather than discuss a new idea, and one predicted by Dr. Carl Sagan at that, you all would rather spend endless hours Xtian bashing and repeatedly shooting fish in a barrel (for example, homophobic Bob).
Then I come along, with an idea that does not threaten anyone here, asking for your consideration, and get flamed and ignored. You know what? I am glad you all showed your true colors. I am glad the great rationalists of Pharyngula, led by PZ Myers, have displayed themselves this way.
I now know that Atheists are not rationalists or scientists at all. You are just as locked in your religion-hating ideology as Bob is in his homophobia. Atheists would rather keep repeating to each other arguments against god and religion, as you have been doing for centuries. Do you ever get tired of mutual masturbation?
In view of all the self-congratulatory argumentation and plain juvenile bad language, I thought that Dr. Myers could not possibly be listening to this thread. Yet apparently he is, and I am doubly disappointed.
So I really made a mistake by trying to break into your endless circle-jerk. Please excuse me. I really mean that. You have the right to congratulate, or co-stimulate, each other as long as you want.
You do have the right to go nowhere, and I was wrong to come here. I will not come again. If anyone does want to engage me, my telephone number appears at the bottom of my original post, below.
Original Post:
Since this thread has gone all over the place, I would like to ask the members to consider the following. Originally, I wrote it in a letter to Dr. Myers. I believe that was yesterday. While awaiting his response, I ask for your consideration.
Dear Dr. Myers,
We spoke on the telephone about one week ago. I would like first to
paraphrase for you the words of the late Carl Sagan (“Pale Blue Dot”,
1994):
a religion whether old or new,that stressed the spirituality of Nature as revealed by science,might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the traditional faiths.
Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.
I have developed such a religion (in which the scientific study of Nature leads to spirituality), and would like to post about it on your Pharyngula blog. “Aletheism, the Religion of Truth”, is based on four principles:
1. Data locuta est, causa finita est; “when the evidence has spoken, the matter is settled”. Evidence (data) is reliable information drawn from natural phenomena. Data is sacred in Aletheism.
2. All ideologies (systems of belief) are based on traditions, dogma, or fantasies of the human mind, rather than evidence of the natural world. Therefore no religious or political ideology can lead the seeker to Truth.
3. The doorway to Aletheism is ideoclasm: the smashing of the aspirant’s beliefs with the hammer of evidence. Ideoclasm is not simply the entrance; it is a daily practice for Aletheist disciples. Only Truth must be allowed to inhabit the Aletheist’s mind.
4. Scientific study of natural phenomena and meditation in the wilderness of Nature reveal the magnificence of the universe and of this precious “pale blue dot” on which we are privileged to live. Thus the disciple of Aletheism enters a state of natural spirituality.
Regards,
John Billings
904-333-8522
Because nobody has said it yet; #9 please don’t use genitalia to discribe xians, i happen to like sex organs.
Good song about this subject.
Ibbica, that service with a smile stuff is weird as hell indeed.
& i can’t get over the US attitude towards unions, unionizing would solve $2.13 an hour.
Fracking low. *head spins*
John
You haven’t developed anything, you’ve asserted some very broad nonsense. i’m not surprised you were mocked and ignored.
Your “religion” is as much nonsense as any.
The forth “principle” in particular
I’d love to hear your definition of “natural spirituality”
I’m sure it will be as much nonsense as the rest of it.
John, don’t expect a response by PZ. Insipid thinking across the board. Go away and come back with something concrete. It will help when you realize you aren’t the brightest bulb in the room. Also think about Feynman’s observation, “the easiest person to fool is yourself”.
John.
The main reason you got insulted and called out, apart from the bits of your post that made sense not actually being distinguishable from atheism, was that it completely ignored a large chunk of Pharyngula’s standards and practices.
Basically if you don’t read the rules before you post, then you are in no position to complain about the responses you get.
John Freethinker: What is the value of packaging standard scientific and critical reasoning in this nonsense language? Why do we need to make thinking look like religion?
Um
John
Congratulations, your first three principles are a crude outline of the scientific method. Not exactly breaking new ground there.
Your fourth is a vague and substance-free assertion.
And your lead-in rant seems like it was designed by a troll focus group.
Yeah, ahs ॐ, that was the point of my post at #191 going right over Phoenician in a time of Romans’s head.
It’s amazing how what I wrote appeared not to even have been read. If it had, the moron would have seen the redundancy in pointing out the existence of men, even homophobic men, who are gay and identify as heterosexual. I didn’t deny their existence and I don’t need explained to me that there exists research indicating that rabidly homophobic men likely suppress homosexual desires.
I fully comprehend the point of what Phoenician in a time of Romans was trying to do in provoking a response from Bob Stevensson, but I insist that it’s not funny, nor is there any point to it. What could possibly be garnered from any response. This is a damned internet forum and psychological evaluation of comments assumed to be defensive is at best speculative. I must reiterate again that since there is nothing shameful about being gay or having homosexual desires, even if Bob Stevensson were a gay man hiding behind a toxically heteronormative exterior, the most anyone could do is have pity for him; it would prove absolutely nothing.
So, Phoenician in a time of Romans, you disingenuous creep, don’t do that. Surely that’s not so hard to comprehend?
I would like to thank the participants in this thread for finally getting eviel Bob to bring Hammer Time upon himself. Good times.
Could someone please explain to me what is supposed to be so compelling about John 3:16? Every now and then it comes up and I realize I have forgotten it again, and I go look it up and see that it contains nothing particularly noteworthy and eventually forget it all over.
wait, so Aletheism is not the worship of IPAs?
bummer
I was gonna mention that I indulged in services last night.
This is a religion I could get behind
John – many people ignored you because they were being kind. But you want a response? Fine.
He doesn’t do guest posts, unless he himself solicits them. You’re already wasting your time.
Ok, stop right there. Using Latin is generally a sign of pretentiousness and talking just to feel smug about how pretentious you are. Don’t do that.
You have no idea what “sacred” means. This is meaningless.
Pretentious and fluffy and crappy metaphors.
Non sequitur. Define “natural spirituality”. Explain how your first sentence leads to the second. You have done neither.
Oh, wait. That’s the end. So, entirely meaningless drivel.
There, you’ve been addressed.
Average cost of a restaurant meal: $33.06
Cost of fake ten-dollar tract: $.03
Knowing I spit in your food: Priceless
@plien:
Thanks, that’s a niggling bit of annoyance I see every so often. People shouldn’t use genitalia (male or female) as an insult, period.
@Chas:
I don’t like IPAs, but I’d be willing to worship a nice weissbier or chocolate porter, yumm.
Oh, ahs ॐ, I do it by keeping my cool. Ha! No, it’s the façade of the internet that makes it seem like I ‘can do it’, were Bob Stevensson saying those things to my face, I’d be near apoplectic. However, as I hinted far above, like that person I encountered when I was 16, he’d not have stood a chance. I don’t know if I’m as eloquent in person when I’m angry as when I’m online, but I know the power of words and I do my best to use them well. It’s that, or I evoke quite a fright when I’m spitting mad …though that’s difficult to envision.
It’s also wrong Latin. In Latin, data is plural, and thus the verb should be sunt, not est
I mean if you have to use Latin, at least know your Latin grammar.
(Note: the original saying is Roma locuta est, causa finita est, “Rome has spoken, the matter is settled”. Just because an ending looks the same, it doesn’t mean it is the same)
Also didn’t someone else use aletheism in a much more useful way? one of the FtB bloggers?
For those musing on the (inevitable) vagaries of language and shifts in idioms, nearly 30 years ago in Britain, a man sidled up to me at the urinal and asked whether I was “nice.” Haven’t encountered the scenario or the idiom since that day.
Strict adherence to this principle would mean I would have to give up Firefly.
No thanks.
“What is truth?” P.Pilate
Awww, I missed the chance to sharpen my teeth on chew toy Bob. Oh well, I can think of few things to say to Mr Freethinker instead.
John, many of us here, myself included, here worked long and hard to free ourselves of the stifling confines of religion. It’s hard to imagine just how dark and oppressive it is under the weight of a religious tyranny, but the sheer joy of finally throwing it off is something I will carry with me for the rest of my life.
And now you would like me to throw away that freedom for some woo-woo natural spirituality? Not a chance. I will not be bound by religion again, even one as weak and nebulous as yours. It is infantile, and it is illogical, and it is unnecessary.
There is awe and wonder to be found in nature, certainly. But there is nothing spiritual about it. The search for answers is a pursuit that should be encouraged and shared, but be wary of anyone looking for Truth, especially when they use the capital T. Pharyngula, as a community, is a great place to come and share the wonder, but we don’t need your Aletheism here.
It’s all fun right up until the great schism between the Fuggle’ites and the Goldingans.
@John Freethinker:
You know, most people here would probably agree with the basics of what you’re saying… if you knocked off the woo-woo religiosity. You claim to have “developed” a religion based on the importance of truth (oh, sorry, Truth) and scientific principals. And yet, in the very sentence you use to describe it, you fall short of this goal. When you describe aletheism by saying that
the scientific study of Nature leads to spirituality
you are making a statement in terms of the unverifiable and undefined. The word “spirituality” implies the existence of a “spirit.” What is “spirit”? The commonly understood meaning of the term is something unverifiable by any evidence or testing within the scientific method that you hold so paramount. And if you’re using anything other than the commonly understood meaning, well, then it’s not very useful.
Again, most here would probably agree that the truth is important. Truth is valuable. Dismantling false claims, shoddy reasoning, and baseless beliefs is something all skeptics should work towards. But there is no need to bring some undefined element of “spirituality” into any of this, and as long as you do you are failing to adhere to the very principals you claim to hold so dear. Which doesn’t give us much (any) reason to take your ideas seriously.
And that’s why your first comment was ignored and dismissed.
So, John Freethinker:
What is your definition of spiritualism?
@peterh:
A miserable little pile of secrets?
There is an important difference in that due to the nature of one person’s conduct towards another in private and social attitudes towards sexual harassment, there are likelier explanations for the evidence it occurred not being available than the explanation that it simply didn’t happen. This is not true of Creationist claims.
I’ve never worked as a server, but my stepsister did for a long time. Even before she did that my parents and stepparents always set a good example by leaving decent tips, and so one thing I NEVER do is stiff a waiter a waitress–even if they’re terrible I leave a little something. When I travel abroad I make a point of finding out what the tipping norms are and following them. At the risk of sounding melodramatic, I honestly think it’s immoral to do otherwise.
When my wife and I were in grad school one of our friends worked as a waitress at a Po’ Boys. She said nobody wanted to work the after-church shift. While there were certainly exceptions, the crowds were demanding and rude, often berating her for working on the Sabbath (without a hint of self-awareness of their hypocrisy), tipped poorly and would even sometimes leave a tract of some kind instead of a tip, as in this case. This is, in fact, a particularly appalling example, since the tract is disguised to look like money. It’s downright cruel, IMO. Does anyone really imagine this is going to do anything but make the server mad? I don’t know how often servers actually do this kind of thing, but if I recognized a customer who had done this to me I would be sorely tempted to have some revenge.
I fully comprehend the point of what Phoenician in a time of Romans was trying to do in provoking a response from Bob Stevensson, but I insist that it’s not funny, nor is there any point to it. What could possibly be garnered from any response.
Pardon me, but sticking a needle into a persistant troll is a worthy end in itself.
Phoenician in a time of Romans, I don’t believe that to be true. It merely lowers you to the troll’s level. Stick the troll, but do it with a sniny needle, not a pointless one.
I’ll note that you haven’t responded substantively to my comments, and far from having excused yourself for your post, you have instead suggested that your post was a mindless attempt to ‘stick’ a troll and a worthy end despite the fact that two people have explicitly told you, in short, that what your wrote, ‘wasn’t cool.’
Don’t be an asshole.
Needling a persistent troll is definately worthy. There are ways to do it without using insults pertaining to sexual orientation, physical disability, gender, and mental illness or mental disability. This type of insult, in my annoying opinion, has no place except in books covering the history of language.
Hell, sometimes you can make their head ‘splode just by asking for a definition or clarification. Repeatedly.
Phoenician @312:
At the certain risk of hurting others? You’ve been asked quite nicely to knock it off. Y’know what, there are many of us homos who are sick to death of being treated horribly by everyday people EVERY DAY. So your attempts to stand by us by using “homo” as a pejorative against a troll only hurt slightly less. Very slightly.
“I hate gays!” “Then you’re gay!” Who wins there?
“hamster” WTF? No, I’m Krasnaya Koshka, как обычнo.
Getting back to tips,
I nominate as the ultimately convenient employee: the waiters and waitresses who work with no contract and no pay. Only tips.
The employer doesn’t have to pay anything including sick leave or insurance, there’s no hassle with paperwork, counting taxes etc.
The employee just shows up and works as instructed, collects their tips, and takes all the risk if there are few customers. How ’bout that?
Some restaurants in NYC operate in this way, don’t about anywhere elsewhere.
Then why not use a needle that only affects the trolls?
Oops! anywhere else.
Many of you have criticized me, yet no one has responded as I requested. What part of “my telephone number” do you not understand?
John Freethinker:
I have not mocked, criticized or insulted you. I did, however, ask a question: What is your definition of spiritualism?
Not going to call you. We have this wonderful thing called the internet which allows multiple people to participate in the same conversation. C’mon, dude, you have the chance to change the world! But first, what is your definition of spiritualism?
Father Ogvorbis has a true point. Nobody to date has supplied a cogent and coherent definition of spiritualism. It is a null word, meaning nothing but bullshit in our eyes. Prove otherwise with your [inane] definition…
Nerd:
Well, we did add Quantum Tomatoes to the Pharyngabulary with the last spiritualism spin.
You have quite the sense of entitlement, don’t you?
I am the only open atheist on the wait staff in the restaurant I work at and when ever anyone gets a tip that is biblical it ends up in my change drawer. I even got a 1,000,000 dollar bill from Living Waters Ministry. The most excessive one was getting the book of John in pocket form.
have we considered passing the hat around for this chap? It seems to me that he has been stiffed. If anyone could get paypal details I would be pleased to tip him myself. Any other takers?
I suppose an on-topic post is in order. I was a pizza delivery guy for 3 years in high school. $6 an hour plus tips, so it wasn’t like I would starve without them, but I had a beater of a car and tips kept her running. Important, ’cause only the kids with rich parents drove at our school, I got a boost in the social hierarchy despite my complete and utter lack of sporting ability.
Every Sunday evening, the drivers would fight to not be the one stuck taking a certain order out. Some kind of late-night after church bible study, way outside of town (75mins driving round trip). They ordered every week, 6 pizzas, and always demanded exact change (to the penny), and gave a tract as a tip. So not only did you get stiffed on their order, but it took so long it really cut down on the total number of deliveries you could make that night.
I regret to say, that my younger, less restrained self, visited them each Halloween with eggs and a brick. I’m not proud of it, but damned if they didn’t deserve it.
John Freethinker:
What part of “this is the internet, a great medium for communication” don’t you understand?
No one wants to call you, dude. Either talk here or shut up.
If I was a suspicious cynical person I might think that John’s phone number was one of those that charged the caller multiple dollars per short period of time and he was merely trying to cash in.
If I was that sort of person.
As it is I am someone who is not going to ring it because I’m not in that country and I don’t like phones, and have no interest in talking to someone trying to start up a religion based around principles that don’t need a religious element.
First of all, thank you for not blocking me or whatever the term is. Secondly, I now realize that those in foreign countries may not be able to call me, at least not with facility. Others may be afraid of giving away their telephone number through caller ID. A person who connects “science” with “spirituality” might be capable of all sorts of strange behavior.
As to my definition of spirituality: Once, about 30 year ago, before I had even become Christian, I was into yoga and meditation. I visited a New Age store (Horai-San in Brookline, MA), and the cashier was discussing crystals with a customer. The cashier said, “Crystals are so spiritual, aren’t they?”
I thought, How can a rock be spiritual? In the decades since, especially during my Christian years, I often remembered the strangeness of that statement. How could a rock be spiritual? Spirituality required a spirit, like the (cursed, hallucinated) Holy Spirit.
But having spent much time in the wilderness, walking the hills and sitting by waterfalls, and breathing the pine-sea air at Acadia Nat’l Park, and also spending endless hours in the eel grass beds and coral reefs of the Florida keys, I have come to understand that New Age woman. She meant that crystals made her feel something she could only define as “spiritual”.
The marvels I have seen also bring me to a state I cannot describe as less than spiritual. When I see a partial rainbow suddenly appear in the clouds as the sun sets, that is spiritual. When I suddenly come upon a living purple Janthina snail at North Miami Beach, that is spiritual. When I watch mudskippers at the local aquarium store, and realize that these fish spend most of their time out of water, I am watching evolution in action. Mudskipper fish are really fishphibians, and this is beautiful and spiritual. And yes, a cluster of golden cubical pyrite crystals is spiritual as well.
It seems the more I study Nature, the more I use the word “spiritual” to describe my feelings. There is actually one other word which has the right strength to carry the meaning. “Reverence” is the word Carl Sagan used when describing the religion he predicted (in Pale Blue Dot, 1994). I am sorry if juxtaposition of science with spirituality (or reverence) offends anyone, but I have no other word for my experience of the natural world, and I will not apologize for it. This is natural spirituality, the goal of Aletheism.
Aletheism is specifically designed to segue from scientific rationality to the natural spirituality I just described. Aletheism, the Religion of Truth, is designed to replace baseless ideologies, especially traditional religions, with evidence-based reason and reverence toward the natural world.
John “Freethinker”,
No-one’s interested. Go and wank somewhere more private.
Another vague and wanking definition of spiritual. Essentially, he knows it when he sees it. Not what is necessary to convince gnu atheists you have anything cogent. Oh yes, you continue your newage (rhymes with sewage) wanking here, killfile will be engaged, at least by me.
Has anyone read Geoffrey Willans How to be Topp and others in the same series? They are supposedly written by Nigel Molesworth, an English upper-class schoolboy. John “Freethinker” reminds me irresistably of that weed and wet Basil Fotherington-Thomas, chiz chiz, who skip around skool saing “Hello clouds, hello sky”.
“Aletheism, the Religion of Truth, is designed to replace baseless ideologies, especially traditional religions, with evidence-based reason and reverence toward the natural world.”
Woo in any packaging remains woo.
I have been patient enough with you, especially when constantly bombarded with infantile bad language and Atheistic mystophobia (irrational fear of the spiritual or mystical). Really, the telephone would have settled this matter so much more quickly, for settled it is. I leave you with Carl Sagan’s own attitude toward the natural world, “reverence”.
buahahahahahaha
John fuckwittedthinker:
Your mystical bullshit isn’t original. I find it highly offensive that you think it is. If you need to discuss it with someone over the phone, call a 900 number or something.
Also puzzled as to why he didn’t take it to the Alethian Worldview (who is clearer in specifying that he’s using Althea as a shortcut rather than actually subscribing to woo)
I can feel happiness, joy, and many other emotions when observing the natural world without any need to invoke any ‘spirituality’. And I don’t see why John get to redefine the word spiritual to try and pretend it isn’t full of woo.
Although John should be careful about posting a phone number on a public website. It would be terrible if it kept getting calls at all hours of the day and night. But I, for reasons already explained, will not be calling it so he’s safe from that from me at least.
Keep in mind Sagan was talking to mostly religious people on his show Cosmos years ago. We don’t have to bother with such shit today. Nor should you.
John,
Get over yourself. Seriously.
I believe Francis Collins’ blog (if it exists) is the blog you are looking for.
And reading that makes me feel something that can only be described as “palychrinastureaphlobiticasm”. See, if I don’t actually define the word, it is meaningless.
So prisms are “spriritual”?
And Borkquote, disciple of Tpyos, strikes again. Sorry.
The upper classes are privately educated. It’s the lower-upper-middle classes (see George Orwell) who send their sons to st custards.
I think wanking can be spiritual.
I, for one, revere it.