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Poll: Should lesbians take over the world?

A lesbian in a San Diego high school got elected homecoming king by her fellow students, along with her girlfriend being elected homecoming queen. Seems like a natural and reasonable choice to me…but of course the local angry bigot crowd not only gets to turn it into an online poll, but is skewing the votes towards their bigotry. It seems fitting that a decision that was made democratically by the more egalitarian students affected by it is being flailed at by people to whom it doesn’t matter, so let’s join in!

Do you think a woman should be crowned Homecoming King?

Yes, why not? 37%
No, that’s crazy. 56%
I’m not sure. 7%

By the way, if you don’t like the choice of homecoming king, then don’t go to the dance.

I don’t even remember who the king and queen were at my high school homecoming dance. I do remember that it was my very first date with my eventual wife-to-be, so they could have elected a shaved bigfoot to the position, and I wouldn’t have cared — Mary was radiant, and as far as I can recall, there wasn’t even anyone else there.

Comments

  1. Graham Martin-Royle says

    When I left school, back in the 70′s, we didn’t have all this palaver. It was the UK mind.

  2. osteenq says

    I have a problem with it, but only relating to semantics.

    “King” is typically a male title.

    I have absolutely no problem with the idea of having a homecoming queen and queen, though.

  3. raven says

    so they could have elected a shaved bigfoot to the position, and I wouldn’t have cared —

    Something isn’t right here.

    Why should a Bigfoot be shaved? In their natural state they have a nice soft pelt that keeps them warm. It’s like shaving your cat or something.

  4. Thomathy, now gayer and atheister says

    Good for the couple. It’s also nice that it’s engendering a more positive environment in the school. Still, the popularity contests in American schools remain entirely foreign to me.

  5. says

    Crap, I read the comment from the article. There were good people in there, but the other ones made me want to vomit.

  6. Snowshoe the Canuck says

    Sometimes I wish this computer had an auto translate function along autocorrect. Homecoming turns out to be an American thing. I can’t remember if my high school even had dances.

  7. says

    Shouldn’t they both be crowned homecoming queen?

    For the purpose of the poll, I’ll vote “Yes, why not?”, though.

  8. Matt Penfold says

    Some of the comments are truly dreadful. Including the one from someone objecting to the use of the word “king”. Someone did a nice job of demolishing that objection, pointing out that king is traditionally used to refer to a male monarch, and that the Homecoming King is also not a monarch.

  9. muttpupdad says

    I ran as homecoming queen back in the 70′s at my high school as a write in, being not allowed to be on the ballot. They had to quit counting before they were halfway through because they were not getting the desired candidate, who they ended up just declaring without giving any vote totals in the end. I was so hoping to see the look on everyone’s face when I was presented in my gown, supplied by a local store for all the official candidates(female), so I was denied even that. It did succeed in showing what a farce these contest are.

  10. says

    @janine
    In the minds of the bigots, the moment two lesbians make out, the world collapse in on itself into degenerate matter.

    I have always been amused the way anti LGBT folks exaggerate the powers the gays have and think that the gays have the power to turn everyone gays and ruin everything.

  11. alopiasmag says

    I agree with “osteenq”…

    King is Male, Queen is Female, and it is awarded to people who contributed or excelled in their school. An award for male, and an award for female (whether GLBT or not).

    Best Actor awards are for male actors… not females.

  12. Father Ogvorbis, OM: Machiavellian Inquisitor says

    And, on the same page, is a link to this, an article about a university which requires all employees to sign a pledge promising that they are not gay. And yes, there is a ‘poll’ there, too.

  13. says

    Stupid question time. How does a lesbian being Homecoming King lead to lesbians ruling the world?

    As it stands, I like to think of this as one small victory. The victory that LGBT people are seen as being just people.

    But, don’t you see? Treating lesbians as people is the first step towards global domination! First you elect ‘em Homecoming King, then… uh… the world!

  14. Brownian says

    They probably did, Canuck, but remember: up here high school dances—like football—are elective, extracurricular things, not the be all and end all of human existence.

    How much you want to bet the people commenting at the link about how homecoming king is a sacred, exalted position are the same types that chant that they need their guns in case a king comes waltzing over to tax them?

  15. truthspeaker says

    My school’s homecoming had neither a king nor a queen. Same thing for prom. This was back in the 80s, and even back then it seemed like an outdated custom.

  16. Matt Penfold says

    King is Male, Queen is Female, and it is awarded to people who contributed or excelled in their school. An award for male, and an award for female (whether GLBT or not).

    King does not just mean male, it means a male monarch. So I presume if you think the Homecoming King must be male you also think he must be a monarch.

    Not many of them in the US.

  17. =8)-DX says

    Another badly worded question. I you’re to have a ruling couple, why not TWO QUEENS! I mean if you have a tabular list I guess one column for king and one for queen then you’re stuck with this, but otherwise it’s exactly the same.

    #20 – And on that page there is a link to an article about one favourite presidential candidate signing a pledge against: gays, adultery, fornication, pornography and sharia.

    The poll there has one question..
    “Would you sign this marriage pledge?”
    And only one choice!
    “Yes, I think it promotes good values.”

    Try pharyngulating THAT!

  18. Brownian says

    King is Male, Queen is Female, and it is awarded to people who contributed or excelled in their school. An award for male, and an award for female (whether GLBT or not).

    So, Homecoming Queen and Homecoming Queen would have made you put down the antacid and the dictionary? And yet I’ve known many a queen with a dick.

    This summer, two friends of mine got married. Unfortunately, due to bureaucratic entropy, the marriage license forms only had spots each for “Bride” and “Groom”. The clerk sheepishly apologised to both brides for not having more current, applicable forms.

    Progress marches on, even if administrative assistants aren’t always at the printer and photocopier 24/7 to satisfy the pedants.

  19. Hazuki says

    Mwahahaha…first the proms, then the world!

    “Hatsumi, are you pondering what I’m pondering…?”
    “I think so, but, um…where is the Adam reference in Yamibou if I’m Eve and we already have a Lilith? Think it’s you?”
    “…okay, so the answer to that is no then.”
    “So what should we do tonight?”
    “The same thing we do every night, onee-chan…try to take over the world! …I mean, shower together and fall asleep in each others’ arms.”
    “Do people mix those up a lot?”
    “You would be amazed, my love…”

  20. says

    Best Actor awards are for male actors… not females.

    Somebody is not in tune with the times. SAG has gone to giving awards for best male actor and best female actor.

  21. Predator Handshake says

    alopiasmag@19:

    King is Male, Queen is Female, and it is awarded to people who contributed or excelled in their school. An award for male, and an award for female (whether GLBT or not).

    If by “contributed or excelled in their school” you mean “was popular” then your description might be accurate. Otherwise I’d have to think you went to a very atypical school regarding homecoming practices.

  22. Carlie says

    and it is awarded to people who contributed or excelled in their school.

    In most schools, it’s a popularity contest.

  23. Pierce R. Butler says

    According to the 14th Amendment, states and municipalities are bound by the strictures of the federal Constitution.

    And Article I, Section 9 of said Constitution mandates that

    No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States…

    As public schools are agencies of local governments, doesn’t bestowing such titles directly violate the basic law of the land?

    If only there were some Constitution-loving patriots who could stand up to protect us from such tyranny in our hour of need…

  24. Meregrotta says

    hey, here’s a thought, if the couple win the spot let THEM choose which silly stuffy antiquated title they use.

    Whatya think?

  25. Brownian says

    King does not just mean male, it means a male monarch. So I presume if you think the Homecoming King must be male you also think he must be a monarch.

    Not many of them in the US.

    Further, both the King and Queen were elected by their fellow students. I understand this is typically the case for Homecoming Kings and Queens. Just where are they coming home from anyway?

    How long are the Dictionaristas going to sit back and let thess lexical travesties go on? And why the hell do we drive on a parkway and park on a drive…

  26. dochopper says

    I so look forward to the day when the novelty of THE GAY has worn off .

    Take it as you will But I don’t mean in in a negative way.

  27. Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM, says

    I have always been amused the way anti LGBT folks exaggerate the powers the gays have and think that the gays have the power to turn everyone gays and ruin everything.

    ibyea, it amuses to no end that an over educated, under employed, chronicly broke middle aged person like myself is a threat to the safety of the world.

  28. says

    I don’t even remember who the king and queen were at my high school homecoming dance. I do remember that it was my very first date with my eventual wife-to-be, so they could have elected a shaved bigfoot to the position, and I wouldn’t have cared — Mary was radiant, and as far as I can recall, there wasn’t even anyone else there.

    That’s the point PZ. I think crazy bigots do not have a life of their own, or are closet homosexuals unable to accept who they are and want to ruin the happiness of others.

    PS: not to imply all closet homosexuals are crazy bigots not at all, but lot of crazy bigots are closet homosexuals.

  29. Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM, says

    If a female can be king, the word king will lose it’s meaning. We have to protect the sanctity of words because words are concrete.

  30. Brownian says

    hey, here’s a thought, if the couple win the spot let THEM choose which silly stuffy antiquated title they use.

    Whatya think?

    I’ve got no problem with that, but I understand sometimes the humans are fiercely protective of their traditions.

    That’s the point PZ. I think crazy bigots do not have a life of their own, or are closet homosexuals unable to accept who they are and want to ruin the happiness of others.

    Uh, no need to reach for perpetuate the self-hater in the closet meme. The answer is probably much simpler:

    Lesbians = those kids
    Homecoming King = my lawn

  31. Carlie says

    We have to protect the sanctity of words because words are concrete.

    Jesus Christ, Janine. Concrete is a conglomerate material made of cement and various types of crushed rock. Sheesh. Meaning of words, people!

  32. says

    Matt @17: Your logic undoes me.

    It’s not my country or culture, so whatever they want to call the two most popular students in the leaving school year (is that how it works?) is up to whoever organizes these things. Just pointing out that there’s a perfectly usable choice of words in these English-speaking countries that actually have royalty — that of Queen and Consort — which avoids the confusion of having female kings (not a widespread concept) or two queens (not useful in ruling, diumvirates can bring things to a grinding halt when there’s disagreement, better to have a triumvirate).

    Of course, that kind of implies that the Queen is socially superior to the consort, which might be too undemocratic a concept for the US. But then, kings and queens aren’t really a very democratic concept, Queen Amigdala of Naboo notwithstanding.

  33. sumdum says

    Who are we to intervene with the democratic process of the homecoming election ? If the students elect a lesbian, let them.

  34. Gregory says

    Back in the day, the Homecoming King was always the jockiest football player. So very likely you DID have a shaved Bigfoot as Homecoming King.

  35. Jamie says

    This reminds me of Dealing with Dragons (by Patricia Wrede), in which a female dragon becomes “King of the Dragons.” Though to them, “King” means whoever is ruling the dragons.

  36. horrabin says

    one favourite presidential candidate signing a pledge against: gays, adultery, fornication, pornography and sharia.

    In other words, they want to impose sharia law without the word sharia.

  37. Sam240 says

    Apparently these people have never heard of Rice University’s homecoming rituals.

    http://timeline.centennial.rice.edu/entry/367/
    http://www.media.rice.edu/media/NewsBot.asp?MODE=VIEW&ID=5904&SnID=4

    In 1996, the students decided to further honor Richard Smalley, that year’s Nobel Prize winner in Chemistry, by electing him Homecoming Queen. The Homecoming King couldn’t make it. The Transco Tower, being immobile, remained in Downtown Houston.

    In 1999, the students named a construction crane as Homecoming Queen. The Queen’s picture can be seen here:

    http://www.media.rice.edu/media/991202.asp?SnID=2

    The 1995 court was divided along traditional gender lines, however. Ann Richards, then the governor of Texas, was elected Homecoming Queen. The Homecoming King was Doofus the ferret. I hear they made a cute couple.

  38. Georgia Sam says

    Having a female homecoming king is vastly less silly than the whole idea of having homecoming royalty in the first place. I salute the students of Patrick Henry High for making a statement while having a little fun with the tradition. As for calling the couple the queen and consort, that’s fine from a linguistic point of view, but I’m betting the adults who run the school wouldn’t allow it, and besides, who cares?

  39. DLC says

    what a bunch of wet blankets. let the kids have their party, and nominate whomever they see fit for the bloody king/queen/high chief mucky-muck or whatever they want to call it.

  40. says

    King is Male, Queen is Female, and it is awarded to people who contributed or excelled in their school. An award for male, and an award for female

    You’ve (inadvertently) highlighted the root of the problem. Why are there awards that are gender specific? If they want to give to honours (homecoming whatsit or whatever) then they should give those honours to the most deserving (or elected) two people regardless of their gender. People are individuals and should not be discriminated for or against because of arbitrary criteria like gender.

  41. says

    As I said wrote before, I object to calling one of the two girls a Homecoming King, but not on dictionary dictatorial grounds, but rather because I’ve heard accusations of masculinity being used as insults towards lesbians before.

  42. JT says

    I don’t know. I mean, the terms “King” and “Queen” imply a hereditary rule. Having students elected to the position is just wrong. By tradition the first King and Queen should be determined by bloody conquest, and all future homecoming monarchs should be the closest attending relative of the last and his/her consort.

  43. Shriketastic says

    Somebody is not in tune with the times. SAG has gone to giving awards for best male actor and best female actor.

    I was going to say. I have seen many a woman refer to herself as an “actor”, not actress.

  44. Aquaria says

    Further, both the King and Queen were elected by their fellow students. I understand this is typically the case for Homecoming Kings and Queens. Just where are they coming home from anyway?

    Think of it as a special alumni week. The alumni “come home” to cheer on the alma mater at a game where they’re honored, and it’s a chance for old school friends to meet up again. Or that’s technically what homecoming is for.

    Most schools, it’s a sham, but I did go to one high school that had a very, very active alumni group and strong support from the community. Thousands of former students would come back that weekend to go to the game, then to the huge parties after it for current and former students. A previous year’s homecoming king and queen would also crown the new ones during the halftime show. And it is a show, at least in Texas.

  45. Matt Penfold says

    I was going to say. I have seen many a woman refer to herself as an “actor”, not actress.

    The Reader’s Editor of the Guardian and the Observer recently wrote about this very subject. The consensus within the paper was that actor should be used for both men and women, unless it would lead to confusion that the use of actress would avoid. The example given was where a women takes on a male role it might make more sense to refer to her an actress so as to make it clear she is a women, and there has not simply be some cock-up that mangled the story.

  46. calliopejane says

    NelC says:
    Queen and consort, surely.

    Matt Penfold says:
    No.

    Why on earth not? I have a (politically & socially well-connected) gay male friend who was tapped to be king of a Mardi Gras Krewe. The krewe was fantastic about making tiny alterations to protocol to make things work for him and his male partner. And the titles were indeed “King and Consort.” (for the non-Americans who don’t get homecoming, I’m sure New Orleans Mardi Gras royalty seems even stranger…but that’s a whole different discussion).

    The only problem I have with this is the conflation of gender identity and sexual orientation. They are different things. Just because I am a lesbian does not mean I think I am, or want to be, a man. And a transgender person may be gay, straight, bisexual or asexual vis a vis their chosen gender.

    It’s a misconception that nonconforming individuals have to explain a lot. And I am personally SICK TO DEATH of the “which one of you is the man?” question. NEITHER of us is a man, that’s the whole POINT!!

  47. Matt Penfold says

    calliopejane,

    Are you also confused over the fact neither the King nor Queen is actually a real monarch ?

  48. Mikey says

    so they could have elected a shaved bigfoot to the position

    Do you really think you could have won? ;-)

  49. Aquaria says

    Apparently these people have never heard of Rice University’s homecoming rituals.

    Back in the early 80s, their marching band was a hoot to watch. The football team was awful (it’s an egghead school), so the band had to make up for it. People would pay the college prices not to watch the game, but to watch the band.

    One year, the band split the halftime with Texas A&M. In case you don’t know, Texas A&M”s band has no majorettes, flashy costumes or Big Bertha. Nope, at A&M, they’re strictly military. Very rigid. The band wears military uniforms, and do precision formations. YAWN.

    Rice decided to make fun of them by marching like Nazis and doing Sieg Heil salutes. I know people from A&M back then who are still pissed about it.

    It’s cracked me up ever since I saw it on TV.

  50. =8)-DX says

    “People are individuals and should not be discriminated for or against because of arbitrary criteria like gender.”

    I don’t think gender is an arbitrary criteria. Unlike many other criteria for discrimination there actually IS real difference here (biological). Not one that’s perhaps relevant to homecoming kings and queens, nor is there a reason to provide one of the genders with excess privilege, but it’s not an arbritrary distinction by any means.

  51. Ing says

    @8)-DX

    If there’s no merit based reason for distinguishing then why should we bother with discrimination based by it? Separate but equal?

  52. Aquaria says

    I don’t even remember who the king and queen were at my high school homecoming dance.

    I don’t remember any of it, either, and I was in the band two years–i.e., had no choice about being on the field while all that stupid was going on, and I was even the sports reporter on the school paper the next year–so I was the one who wrote about the winner!

    Still drawing a blank, though. I can’t even see the picture of whoever it was supposed to be. I can see the group photo of the year I wrote about it, but not the winner.

    That’s how much it meant to me–i.e., not at all.

  53. says

    NelC,

    why would you give the example of Queen Amidala if there have been plenty of electoral monarchies here on earth.

    just off the top of my head, the pope, the king of the Holy Roman Empire, the Polish king I think in some periods…

    of course they weren’t usually elected democratically, but by a limited group of people, but it seems that Homecoming monarch elections are often run undemocratically too..

  54. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, liar and scoundrel says

    Should lesbians take over the world?

    Um… yes?

    Surely they can’t cock it up any worse than the rich straight dudes have.

    I’m really starting to think that the people who write this kind of poll need a fucking hobby– it can’t be healthy to be that concerned with (what amounts to or what should be) trivial shit. Let the kids have their fun and leave them the hell alone.

  55. tim rowledge, Ersatz Haderach says

    Somebody is not in tune with the times. SAG has gone to giving awards for best male actor and best female actor.

    That’s a small improvement but surely it is time to drop the whole gender silliness and just recognise the best actor, full stop. Would it be acceptable to institute separate awards for ‘best male director’ and ‘best female director’? I don’t think so – and thus it seems wrong to separate awards for actors.

    Surely they can’t cock it up any worse than the rich straight dudes have.

    I saw what you did there.

  56. syggyx says

    Yes, this is entirely American thing, I don’t think in Europe anything like this exists.

    In Europe you go to school, you get exams, you finish school with a final comprehensive exam, and then you apply to college or go to work…none of this dancing/homecoming nonsense.

  57. Gregory Greenwood says

    The fact that this school’s students showed such acceptance of homosexuality gives me some small reason to hope that maybe, just maybe, te next generation will have less of a problem with frothing, homophobic morons than this one has.

    Then again, it wasn’t so long ago that I was part of the new generation that was finally supposed to cast bigotry of all types aside.

    It didn’t work out so well.

  58. EricR says

    If it hasnt already been pointed out “the local angry bigot crowd not only gets to turn it into an online poll, but is skewing the votes towards their bigotry” its actually bigots clean across the nation in New york who set up the poll, local bigots here in San Diego havent set one up yet to my knowledge.

  59. Zerple says

    I think homecoming should be abolished all together. It’s a huge waste of time, in the name of a stupid sport.

  60. Scrawny Kayaker says

    This is a great tragedy: some poor football player will be denied another accolade. Won’t someone think of the tall, male children?

  61. ScottK says

    I was bugged by the phrase “self-identified lesbian”. Was she unable to get certification from the national or state registration boards?

  62. says

    In Europe you go to school, you get exams, you finish school with a final comprehensive exam, and then you apply to college or go to work…none of this dancing/homecoming nonsense.

    Yes, because Europe only consists of your school, and your school alone. Seems like you don’t know much about places outside of your own region. But there’s something called Google, and here’s a link about proms in countries across Europe:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prom#Europe

  63. Brownian says

    I was bugged by the phrase “self-identified lesbian”. Was she unable to get certification from the national or state registration boards?

    The paperwork has to be ratified by cryptomuslim socialist death panels and flown airmail via black helicopter. Ushering in the New World Order takes time.

  64. Carlie says

    surely it is time to drop the whole gender silliness and just recognise the best actor, full stop. Would it be acceptable to institute separate awards for ‘best male director’ and ‘best female director’? I don’t think so – and thus it seems wrong to separate awards for actors.

    If they did, it would draw attention to the fact that so few women end up directing major films.

  65. Ing says

    @Brownian

    My contacts in the Bi-lluminati inform me that they’re tying up the request with red tape

  66. truthspeaker says

    ScottK says:
    31 October 2011 at 7:19 pm

    I was bugged by the phrase “self-identified lesbian”. Was she unable to get certification from the national or state registration boards?

    Well she’s just a teenager. She couldn’t possibly know for sure. </sarcasm>

  67. Naked Bunny with a Whip says

    /me waits to see if someone will complain about truthspeaker’s “lesbian overlords

  68. What a Maroon says

    Jesus Christ, Janine. Concrete is a conglomerate material made of cement and various types of crushed rock. Sheesh. Meaning of words, people!

    Well, you’re wrong. Not just wrong, but bloody wrong. The whole conglomerate blah blah blah business is just a late barbarism introduced in 1834, which, not coincidentally, was the same year the Spanish inquisition was suppressed and slavery was abolished in the British empire. Clearly this was a watershed year in the decline of traditional civilization.

    The only valid use for concrete is in its original Latin meaning, “grown together”.

    If you don’t know ancient Greek and ancient Latin, you have no business speaking Shakespeare’s tongue.

    /harumph

  69. Uite says

    At first, I thought it to be a bit strange to give a girl the title ‘King’, but then I remembered that my country’s monarchs have all been women for more than 120 years, yet constitutionally they are still called Kings…

  70. What a Maroon says

    ibyea, it amuses to no end that an over educated, under employed, chronicly broke middle aged person like myself is a threat to the safety of the world.

    Well yes, you are. I’ve seen enough James Bond flicks to know the damage over-educated, under-employed middle-aged people can do.

  71. says

    I think I would have preferred electing two queens, as long as one of them got up and went all Galadriel on their asses.

    I so look forward to the day when the novelty of THE GAY has worn off.

    For me, it wore off about 1983, about the third time an old friend told me he was gay, bi, or experimenting.

  72. Rey Fox says

    I’m not too terribly familiar with GLBTQ mores, but if certain homosexual males can be referred to as “queens”, then wouldn’t the converse be true for homosexual female “kings”?

    All lexical issues aside, it’s just a bit of fun, let the king be a lady. I suppose getting into a frothing rage about something like this is the only thing that keeps some peoples’ blood moving.

  73. Daniel Schealler says

    @Rey Fox #93

    Unfortunately, the context is different.

    Men dressing as women can be a comedy routine because dressing as a woman is seen as self-deprecating and ridiculous.

    Women dressing as men isn’t considered ridiculous, so much as a woman not knowing her place.

    There’s an inequality in play based on how the two genders are perceived.

    [Note for the dense: This is my own evaluation of how I perceive other people's views on cross-dressing - I disagree with these views in that I think they are wrong, and to make it more interesting, I may also be mistaken about what other people's views actually are. Fuck, this shit gets complicated quickly. I already need a drink and it's only 10 a.m. in New Zealand]

  74. Brice Gilbert says

    @Daniel Schealler #94

    I don’t know. I think in the past it was more common to see men dressing as women. These days in comedy I don’t think there is a taboo on which sex can do. If anything the taboo is on lazy comedy Dressing up as a women or a man to simply get a laugh has gotten old.

    This is in comedy though. I’m oblivious to transgender issues etc.

  75. says

    Must be Backwards Week. In the USA, high schoolers elect a lesbian to Homecoming Queen. Meanwhile up here in Fag Canada (as Fred Phelps calls us), we just had a gay teen commit suicide due to bullying at school. What made it (more?) newsworthy is that he was the son of the city councillor for my suburb. That’s a bit ironic, given that one previous (and popular) occupant of that office was an out gay — this ain’t exactly a red-neck town. But there’s always just enough bigots and bullies around to make life miserable for anyone who doesn’t quite fit the Approved Mold.

  76. Meregrotta says

    Why on earth not? I have a (politically & socially well-connected) gay male friend who was tapped to be king of a Mardi Gras Krewe. The krewe was fantastic about making tiny alterations to protocol to make things work for him and his male partner. And the titles were indeed “King and Consort.” (for the non-Americans who don’t get homecoming, I’m sure New Orleans Mardi Gras royalty seems even stranger…but that’s a whole different discussion).

    Because “Queen” (although frequently does not) has hopes of implying equality with “King” whereas “Consort” simply equals “well dressed sex-toy”.

    Slight hyperbole there but not a lot.

  77. Pteryxx says

    I don’t think gender is an arbitrary criteria. Unlike many other criteria for discrimination there actually IS real difference here (biological).

    Note the difference between one’s sex (biological) and one’s gender(self-identification). Sure, they coincide often, but not always.

    Personally I hope I live long enough to see the first trans* or intersex person win an acting Oscar. That’ll learn ‘em, if it’s even remarkable by then.

  78. Brownian says

    I say no. Why? Because I don’t think that these kinds of stupid popularity contests should exist in the first place.

    What a perfect time to bring such an abstraction up. If only you had a time machine so you could go back to 1955 Montgomery to steal Rosa’s thunder by yapping on about how busses contribute to global warming no matter where the blacks sit.

  79. Jim Hutton says

    Some of you Americans seem to get all hot under the collar at the most trivial of things.

  80. Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM, says

    Eamon Knight, that is why I called this one small victory. For every cute little heart warming story like the lesbian homecoming king and queen, one can find many stories of bullied gay, lesbian and transgendered people. Of people too scared to be out. Of people so driven to despair that they take their own lives.

    Right now, there are wingnut bigots who whine that the wingnut presidential candidates do not hate teh gayz enough. There is Shorter University, a baptist school, having it’s faculty signing a paper pledging to forsake homosexuality.

    But one has to celebrate the progress made and demand more. I could not imagine anything like this happening thirty years ago when I started high school.

  81. Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM, says

    Personally I hope I live long enough to see the first trans* or intersex person win an acting Oscar. That’ll learn ‘em, if it’s even remarkable by then.

    While not trans, in 1983, Linda Hunt won a best supporting actress Oscar for playing a male character in The Year Of Living Dangerously.

  82. says

    I can’t find the poll option for “I don’t attend that high school, so I don’t need to vote on the homecoming court there. Also, I didn’t care who was voted onto my own homecoming court when I was an actual high school student, and now I’m an adult, and don’t care who is voted on anyone’s homecoming court. Not caring about the homecoming queen is one of the many great things about being an adult.”

  83. Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM, says

    Contented Reader, I could not name who the King And Queen were in any of my years in high school. I did not care. But that is not the point. The point is that there has been enough progress made that in one school, something like this happened. I would be just as pleased if this happened for a gay couple.

  84. EricR says

    Local NPR station here in San diego, just reported that the school has been getting “hate” calls from all over the country, most notable is the very few calls that have identified themselves as being local.

    Also noted that the calls if they had been made by students, would require disciplinary action, in other words lots of serious hateful speech.

  85. says

    Pelamun @66: Come to that, whenever we run short of royals here in the UK, or the issue is in doubt for some reason, Parliament often ends up voting on the issue. So, voting for royalty isn’t the completely alien concept some critics of George Lucas held it to be a few duff movies ago.

    Still, royalty is a basically undemocratic concept, so I don’t feel much sympathy for the position that having a {Queen|King} and consort is somehow unbalanced. Either the role of Homecoming {King|Queen} means something, in which case there can only be one ruler of the homecoming, or it means nothing, in which case it doesn’t matter. If you like, call them Queen and Queen Consort, but don’t specify which is which, just call them Queen Haleigh and Queen Rebeca and let the obsessives sort it out.

  86. says

    NelC,

    I was just being pedantic, I don’t think I had any major disagreement with the point you were making…

    But probably since the US is not a monarchy, the concept of “Consort” is just not too wide-spread, so it would just sound bizarre to your average high schooler’s ear.

  87. Brownian says

    We didn’t have homecoming royalty, but it just ocurred to me that as the date of the Student Council President, ‘Consort’ could best describe my position at graduation (sat smack dab in the middle of the head table and everything). Unfortunately, we’d dated the year before and were just friends at that point, so I didn’t get any sex. (On the other hand, the catering staff don’t skimp out on dinner rolls when it comes to the head table.) My 17-year-old hormones probably would have fared better at aftergrad, but I distinctly recall the part of me that is crazy thinking “I spent 75 bucks renting this damn tux and you want me to put on jeans and get drunk in the woods? Fuck that noise!” and went home instead.

  88. =8)-DX says

    @Ing
    Well there is a certain logic to gender-segregated toilets (and showers!), but that’s perhaps also a patriarchy issue as well as a biological-differences one. My real point was to say that gender distinctions are not always arbitrary, unlike for instance race or religion (which is completely arbitrary from the ground up =). I’m just not buying the “gender is culture” idea, just like I’m not buying the “gay lifestyles are a choice” idea.

    To get to the gist of the argument: the idea of homecoming king/queen is not just a culturally-defined *arbitrary* selection. Humans most often live together in pairs and throughout history leader figures and their spouses have been celebrated as an ideal. Not that this isn’t a culturally defined thing (like all traditions), but it’s not *arbitrary* – I think a gender-specific award can have a certain validity (like best porn actress/actor or, more tamely, my local newspaper putting up photos of mothers with their children born on January 1st including my ex-sister-in-law).

  89. =8)-DX says

    “Women dressing as men isn’t considered ridiculous, so much as a woman not knowing her place.”

    Um I’d disagree – I’ve enoyed quite a lot of comedy based on women dressing up as men (and hasn’t this been a common comic idea for centuries). In my mind this meme is about a kind of male masochistic pleasure – the women who dress up as men in comedy are often much more successful, brave, bold etc., than the men they confront – but then I’m a man so I’d see it that way I guess.

    All in all I’d say that crossdressing experiences in comedy or theatre are meaningful because they both reflect the hypocrisy and inequality inherent in the system, and there is nothing better to laugh at then that.

  90. says

    Humans most often live together in pairs

    That’s a very Western-centric world view. Most people do live together with many, many other relatives, compounds shared by large extended families seems to be the norm in many societies indeed.

  91. Brownian says

    That’s a very Western-centric world view

    Even in Western cultures, extended families were the norm until industrialisation.

  92. says

    Even in Western cultures, extended families were the norm until industrialisation.

    Yes, that was implied in my comment. Should a said, it shows the ignorance about the social history of humanity or somesuch..

  93. says

    Ing @120: No, but apparently, special equipment is needed to extract the urine from men. Funny, I always thought that was relatively easy.*

    *Possibly too culturally-specific joke here.

  94. says

    Pelamun @109: Sure, I’m not taking the language part of it particularly seriously either.

    Though, FSM forbid that kids at school might learn anything new, such as a word for the spouse of a ruling monarch.

  95. Brownian says

    Yes, that was implied in my comment. Should a said, it shows the ignorance about the social history of humanity or somesuch.

    Ah, I just wanted to make it clear. Didn’t mean to step on your toes, pelamun.

    It’s kind of a rule of thumb, but the easiest way to be wrong is to describe some sort of aspect of modern, Western, industrialised societies and ascribe some sort of universality to it.

    Do men require special pumps to extract their poo hat wouldn’t work on women?

    I don’t think so, unless you count books and magazines as a pump, but I know women like to read as well, as evinced by every female I’ve ever lived with, all of whom have contributed her own favourites to the bathroom reading rack. (At home, I will sit down to piss just so I can read the back of the Pert Plus bottle.)

    The only problem I’d have with a unisex bathroom is the constant worry that I’ve somehow reentered the nineties and am living in an Ally McBeal episode. I couldn’t handle the emotional rollercoaster of Robert Downey Jr.’s drug and rehab drama, not to mention knowing what’s about to hit the world as the new millennium dawns.

    Yes, I’m referring to the near-continuous radio airplay of “Iris”. [Shudders.]

  96. Ike says

    Kings are males, queens are females. I’m all for equality, but they should at least be like ‘yeah boi, we elected two queens’. Semantic wordgames =/= equality…

  97. Teh kiloGraeme says

    My £0.02. I’m really pleased they have elected a lesbian couple, and I hope it eventually gets to the stage where people shrug when the sexuality is mentioned. I never did understand the idea of Prom Kings/Queens, or any other school ceremony having these style of things.

    @ Brownian #34

    I can actually answer the parkway/drive thing, but I don’t think you wanted a reply to it!

  98. =8)-DX says

    Ow, I’ve been swamped. OK:

    Well there is a certain logic to gender-segregated toilets (and showers!),

    There is?

    God it’s so hard to argue against gender equality! Although I thought I was arguing against gender equivalency. Bah! Just deleted multiple paragraphs of my answer and after all that it boils down to this: 1) we’re not there yet. 2) Women get pregnant. 4) Men have stupid hormones. TADA! (My hormones are not arbitrary, they fuck my personal life up without asking permission, but dah!).

  99. says

    Just deleted multiple paragraphs of my answer and after all that it boils down to this: 1) we’re not there yet. 2) Women get pregnant. 4) Men have stupid hormones. TADA! (My hormones are not arbitrary, they fuck my personal life up without asking permission, but dah!).

    I don’t think you can speak for all other males. You being an idiot doesn’t transfer over to them.

  100. =8)-DX says

    Plus… on the toilet topic… Should we all ruin our sexual fantasies concerning the opposite sex by interacting with them and listening to them defecating? Oh I just failed on my own point: 1. I have no problem with the idea of someone I know personally defecating or urinating. 2. Same sex people manage this all the time.

  101. 'Tis Himself, OM says

    Men have stupid hormones.

    Speak for yourself. My hormones are quite intelligent. My vasopressin can speak three languages fluently and my thyroxine has published several papers on Nietzsche. :-þ

  102. Tethys says

    Well there is a certain logic to gender-segregated toilets (and showers!),
    There is?

    Women would have difficulty using urinals.

    One size does NOT fit all in toilet habits. Women very rarely pee on things accidentally.

  103. Brownian says

    I can actually answer the parkway/drive thing, but I don’t think you wanted a reply to it!

    I wasn’t looking for one (I was actually eyerolling at that tiresome bit that’s been a staple of bad comedians long before it became the staple of millions of email forwards), but I’m sure many on this blog would enjoy a little informative etymology, so answer away!

    I have no problem with the idea of someone I know personally defecating or urinating.

    Is there another way to defecate or urinate? By proxy? Impersonally?*

    2. Same sex people manage this all the time.

    It’s always nicer when someone sees an obvious fault with their hypothesis without having had to be told.

    *Yes, I know.

  104. Brownian says

    Here’s a suggestion. Have a point. It makes it so much more pleasant for the readers.

    I just watched that a few weeks ago, Ing. Thank you for the reference.

  105. calliopejane says

    I’m not too terribly familiar with GLBTQ mores, but if certain homosexual males can be referred to as “queens”, then wouldn’t the converse be true for homosexual female “kings”?

    As a matter of fact, yes — it is about the expression of gender (which is why only “certain” homosexual males are referred to as queens). Just as men who are expressing femininity may be called queens, women who are expressing masculinity may be termed kings, especially in reference to drag performance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_king

  106. StevoR says

    Latest figures :

    *****

    Thanks for your vote.

    Do you think a woman should be crowned Homecoming King?

    Yes, why not? 74%
    No, that’s crazy. 23%
    I’m not sure. 3%

    *****

    Voted ‘yes’ of course.

  107. Nullifidian says

    It warms my heart to see that my hometown is striking a blow against bigotry. I remember being strongly advised not to do a paper on the post-Stonewall gay rights movement in high school because my U.S. history teacher feared the repercussions if news got out about this. The fact that the topics for the final research papers were self-selected wouldn’t have made a blind bit of difference. (Admittedly, this was just three years after “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” and it was still a hot topic in a city with a big military presence.)

  108. dartigen says

    We never had any of that when I graduated. As I recall, actually, there was an official dinner that half the year didn’t even go to (with group tables), then an unofficial afterparty that was an absolute blast and we all had fun.
    I actually don’t think we have anything like ‘proms’ in Australia. Maybe a graduation party or a dinner, but not on that scale. And nobody here minds it much.

    But I do think calling a woman the ‘homecoming King’ might be a bit insult. You know, pandering to the ‘butch/femme couple’ stereotype.

  109. Jah says

    Only if a man can be voted Homecoming Queen. (equality is a bitch/butch/trans-/non- whatever.)

    Why not just vote One person Homecoming President ? (You’re a republic after all.)

  110. StevoR says

    @104. Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,: 31 October 2011 at 10:04 pm

    Personally I hope I live long enough to see the first trans* or intersex person win an acting Oscar. That’ll learn ‘em, if it’s even remarkable by then.
    While not trans, in 1983, Linda Hunt won a best supporting actress Oscar for playing a male character in The Year Of Living Dangerously.

    Weren’t all actors originally male including the ones who played female characters at one point in history eg. during Shakespearian times?

    Wasn’t there a movie – was it ‘Shakespeare in Love’? I forget now – about the (fictional?) very first woman to act on stage?

    Also did Robin Williams win anything for his drag act in that ‘Mrs Doubtfire’ movie back around the late 80′s / 90′s~ish? I can’t recall but think he might perhaps have done?

    There was one excellently superb movie about a (Real life? I think?) sex-changing (M -> F) Thai kick-boxer – seriously – that I saw once years ago which was very well done indeed. Wish I could recall the title of it .. one word I think but could be wrong. Don’t know if that one won any film awards but I reckon it definitely deserved to do so!

    Oh & veering off on ever more of a tangent here topic~wise but ‘Brokeback Mountain’ won an Oscar or two didn’t it as well? Plus did the ‘Rocky Horror Show’ thing win anything?

    Really, the artists & dramatists (actors & Hollywood) community has been widely considered very sexually open, tolerant and proudly non-heteronormative for a very long time, hasn’t it?

  111. StevoR says

    @ dartigen : 1 November 2011 at 5:41 am

    But I do think calling a woman the ‘homecoming King’ might be a bit insult. You know, pandering to the ‘butch/femme couple’ stereotype.

    I take it the individual inquestion is happy to be called King and is NOT offended but proud of it instead so, yeah, not-so-much in the context here.

  112. StevoR says

    Ack. Clicked submit instead of preview then. Ooops. Sorry.

    I take it she was asked and is happy with this title arrangement.

    If she wants to be called “King” and has no problem with it then why on Earth not?

  113. julian says

    There was one excellently superb movie about a (Real life? I think?) sex-changing (M -> F) Thai kick-boxer – seriously – that I saw once years ago which was very well done indeed.

    Had no idea there was a movie but I think I know who you’re talking about and she’s definitely real. Nong Toom and according to wiki the would be movie Beautiful Boxer, right?

  114. julian says

    But I do think calling a woman the ‘homecoming King’ might be a bit insult.

    What if she’s dressed up as Elvis?

    Anyway if we’re going to be handing out royal titles we should use something less cliched than King and Queen. I vote for Count and Countess because they have a level of mystery to them while being recognizably ‘above’ the lessers. Or maybe Marquis?

  115. StevoR says

    @ 142. julian : 1 November 2011 at 6:20 am

    Had no idea there was a movie but I think I know who you’re talking about and she’s definitely real. Nong Toom and according to wiki the would be movie Beautiful Boxer, right?

    Yes! It’s gotta be! Cheers for that – much appreciated.

  116. StevoR says

    @143. julian : 1 November 2011 at 6:29 am

    What if she’s dressed up as Elvis?

    You mean like these ones? :

    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=female+elvis+impersonator&aq=2&oq=female+Elvis+

    If “King” means only Monarch how come Elvis was the King and then Michael Jackson “King of Pop” and Peter Brock “King of the Mountain” (Mt Panorama, Bathurst Aussie motor-race) and so on?

    They earnt their “kingdoms” by popular acclaim and performance.

    As did the “Sultan of Swing” / “Sheik of Tweak” / “Earl of Twirl” Shane Warne cricket~wise earn his titles.

    Methinks the language usage is metaphorically – and literally as well – changing in this regard.

    I vote for Count and Countess because they have a level of mystery to them while being recognizably ‘above’ the lessers. Or maybe Marquis?

    Well, probably unfortunately, the first count that springs to my mind is always Dracula. Which is sort of ironic (word usage?) because he was apparently based on a historical Prince or King Drakul / Vlad (the Impaler).

    Viscount? Or has that been ruined by Lord Monckton?

    Hmm .. I dunno.

    Countessa and Marquis .. de Star Trek?

    Tsar and Tsarina?
    Sultan and Sultana?
    Vizier and .. brazier?
    Satrap and .. Satrapette?
    Kaiser adn ..um .. Kaiser-ess?
    Grand Mucketty-muck and High Poohbah?

  117. StevoR says

    How about? :

    Lord and Lady – with optional tramp?
    Representative and Senator
    Duke and Duchess
    Earl & Urline
    Proconsul and anti-Consul (sounds kinda hostile don’t it)
    Czar and Czarina*
    Emperor and Empress
    Imperator & Imperatrix

    * Making the rest of them the Czardines?

  118. says

    parkway/driveway:

    I don’t see the problem:

    a parkway is a scenic freeway, thus the park

    the noun use and verb use of park probably have the same origin as they originally refer to some kind of enclosure, of grassland, especially for horses. Which could also be used to park your horse.

    a driveway is a private road for cars to drive on, as opposed to one only for walking. On a larger estate, a driveway can be quite long, with actual driving, if slowly, being done.

  119. says

    NelC,

    I don’t think learning about what to call the spouse of a ruling monarch is terribly relevant in today’s United States of America. And luckily so…

  120. says

    should a been more precise

    a driveway is a private road for cars to drive on leading to a house entrance or garage, as opposed to one only for walking. On a larger estate, a driveway can be quite long, with actual driving, if slowly, being done.

  121. StevoR says

    Or :

    Princess and Prince?
    Mandarin and .. Orange?
    Caliph and .. Calipher?

    Y’know there’s plenty of archaic titles to go around. Why not give one to everyone? ;-)

  122. julian says

    Why not give one to everyone? ;-)

    Because no one has that many crowns and tiaras, duh.

    hmmmm

    Perhaps the art class could mass produce them and tailor them for the rank… I suppose the only question is how to prevent truly terrible puns from being made part of the jewlery.

  123. anthonyallen says

    Before I can answer that with any kind of intelligence, I need to know one thing.

    What the hell is Homecoming, and why is it so important?

  124. Cal says

    Wasn’t there a movie – was it ‘Shakespeare in Love’? I forget now – about the (fictional?) very first woman to act on stage?

    Delurking to note that it was Stage Beauty, which is based on real events but very heavily fictionalised.

  125. Lyn M: droit de seignorita says

    Meregrotta #99

    Because “Queen” (although frequently does not) has hopes of implying equality with “King” whereas “Consort” simply equals “well dressed sex-toy”.

    Oooooo! I want a consort! Can I have two? I mean in case one gets tired or something.

  126. maureen.brian says

    I think we have to stick with Queen and King. Each word has its own meanings, including “ruler”, and a distinct etymology.

    In all the other pairs e.g. Duke & Duchess the female word is a diminutive or derivative of the male.

    No way! Not on this blog. Not in this century.

  127. ScottK says

    “Consul” actually works perfectly, because they were elected in pairs on a yearly basis.

  128. la tricoteuse says

    fcaccin @111:

    That page was google-translated from Italian, wasn’t it? Weird constructs like “relationship sentimental” (relazioni sentimentali, meaning romantic relationships) and some gender pronoun confusion would seem to indicate this.

    In any case, I am disappointed but unsurprised by this story. I think they’re only recently beginning to lift bans on gay blood donors in other countries. The UK just announced the lifting of the ban here last month, and that’s only for NON-sexually active (in the past 12 months) gay men.

    I suppose this case is remarkable in that it is a lesbian, rather than a gay man, being denied. But I find it equally distressing for either to be denied. /off topic

    On topic: I’m just thrilled that this happened anywhere in the US. It’s heartening, never mind the rabid backlash from people whose business it is none of.

  129. Brownian says

    Before I can answer that with any kind of intelligence, I need to know one thing.

    What the hell is Homecoming, and why is it so important?

    Really? Whether or not homecoming is “important”* will dictate your opinion on equal rights for LGBT people?

    “Sorry girls: I’ve done a little research, and I’m afraid I don’t respect your interest in homecoming to stick up for your rights to be given accolades at it just like the straight kids. Get back into the closet until something I consider important enough to fight for comes along.”

    All you need to know about homecoming to answer ‘intelligently” is that it’s important enough to these kids at this stage in their lives, alright? Moreover, it’s important enough that bigots elsewhere in the country are incensed by the thought of equality happening there.

  130. What a Maroon says

    To piggyback on Brownian, all of you who are saying that this isn’t important are missing the point. Of course it’s not important who the homecoming king is in some high school in San Diego, or what the details are of all the strange rituals in US schools. The important point is this: that who you’re attracted to is, or at least should be, irrelevant to your opportunities in life or the treatment you get from others. Whether it’s getting married, joining the military, entering the priesthood, or being elected homecoming king, being LGBT should have absolutely no bearing on it. And when these issues come up, however trivial they may seem, anyone who supports LGBT rights should speak up.

  131. Forbidden Snowflake says

    Brownian:

    All you need to know about homecoming to answer ‘intelligently” is that it’s important enough to these kids at this stage in their lives, alright?

    QFT. This is like the Amish beard debate all over again: people who care about who gets presented with the letters OM this month ridiculing some other subculture’s arbitrary status symbols.
    The real topic here is social acceptance of same-sex couples, and status symbols are a valid metric for that. Can’t we just accept the premise that this shit is important in their culture and take the conversation forward from there?

  132. anthonyallen says

    For the record, I think it’s friggin’ awesome that a same-sex couple was elected Homecoming king and queen by their peers. Good for them, and good for the students at Patrick Henry High School! Let’s hope that others can learn by their shining example.

    My earlier comment was a completely failed attempt at humor. I see that, and I apologize.