I sat through the whole debate last night, which was supposed to address the premise that “The hominin fossil record demonstrably supports human evolution”, with Erika (Gutsick Gibbon) on the pro side, Jerry Bergman against. It was half bad. Erika was well-prepared and tightly on-topic, and her part was worth listening to. Bergman, as I predicted, was a sloppy mess with a scattershot collection of slides which were mostly off-topic and irrelevant, and was full of wrong examples that didn’t make his case. Would you believe he talked about Nebraska Man, a hoary old chestnut of tabloid excess that never had the support of the scientific community, presented alongside Piltdown Man as evidence that the fossil record was fake? How about the claim that Australopithecines were just the bones of pygmies?
But I almost gave up in the first few minutes, before either had a chance to speak, when the screen loaded and there across the top in big capital letters was the banner “STANDING FOR TRUTH BIBLICAL MINISTRIES” with the logo for that disgraceful organization popping up throughout. The moderator/host was that smug twit, Donny Budinsky, a hardcore young earth creationist with no education in science, geology, paleontology, or evolutionary biology, who promotes these inane “debates” between creationists and sane evolutionary biologists. WHY? This was a promotional event for the dumbest collection of ignorant yahoos on YouTube. These are terrible people, and yet so many science educators will voluntarily send traffic their way, and, by the way, platform dogmatic buffoons like Jerry Bergman.
I don’t understand it. Most of the people on our side are educators who know how to deliver a presentation, and have the ability to do it well. It has become easy with tools like StreamYard and Zoom to host a video session with multiple simultaneous contributors. We don’t need grifting yahoos like Donny Budinsky to organize and host these “debates”, and if you ditch mind-numbing parasites like Bergman, you don’t even have to waste time on them — Erika had a robust, informative 45 minutes of science talk imbedded in the superfluous, distracting garbage of the Jerry and Donny Show, with an ad for creationism layered on top.
You know I despise debates, but even worse are debates that donate unwarranted attention and respect to lying apologists for anti-scientific claims. Stop it, everyone.
Hopefully Erica turns her part into a video, because that sounds interesting but i don’t want to see those liers
On the bright side, we have Mokele-Mbemble on our side.
And regarding debating Xian charlatans – it has always been thus debating muslim fundie charlatans, as they only accept a “debate” if the host / moderator is one of them. It is not the ordinary muslims (or Xians) I despise, it is the dishonest propagandists. May the Fenris wolf take them.
Alternatively you can turn the creationists garbage against them. Here’s how a Muslim dealt with that other fraud, Zakir Naik. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk5q9TeGo14
This is why you never debate these people (YES I am saying thst there is no intellectual difference between fascists and creationists.):
https://youtu.be/tZzwO2B9b64?si=Ga3d8mwJV3XlhBgc
The purpose is fundraising and ingroup social reinforcement for the creationists. It has nothing to do with “debate.” It’s just pro-wrestling and merch sales, with science cast as the heel.
And on the specific subject of the “debate,” the fact remains that the fossil record, skeletal remains, genomic analysis, and other lines of evidence necessarily leave unanswered questions about hominin evolution but completely and utterly contradict YEC.
You seem to have watched this PZ. Did he meet your prediction, and remain oblivious?
I long ago refused to engage with creationists. If we can’t even agree on the age of the earth, there’s no point in continuing the conversation any further. That’s the baseline for me. You can’t get past people who believe that if it’s not in the bible, it can’t be true. There are many things that aren’t in the bible. Imagine if there had been this single line in Genesis or one of the psalms — The earth goes around the sun, as the moon goes round the earth. That one line would’ve changed science and history forever. But no, we all we get are begats and sins and centuries of blood stained history. Nothing at all useful. You’d think that if their god really loved us, he would’ve salted in some clues as to how the world actually works.
I’m with Akira and Thoughtslime on this. A “debate” is not something you can have with fascists or creationists. Their worldview is so twisted that there’s no way you are going to change their minds. The only thing that remains is to sway whatever audience there is. Mockery and tearing apart the foundations of their creed is far more effective than trying to teach the entire basics of how the world actually works in an attempt to refute whatever word salad they come up with.
I just don’t have the patience to argue with idiots.
@9 andywuk
Indeed, and these ridiculous events are the only chance a scientist has to reach that audience. Such is the bubble that Christians have built around themselves.
I think you mean far more satisfying. As for effectiveness, I can think of nothing that shuts down humans faster than making fun of them. Erika knows what she’s doing — she’s probably read all of these hot takes before in the aftermath of the Bill Nye creation museum debate. One of the things she’s doing right is she isn’t as famous as Bill Nye, so she isn’t propping up their idiocy with a chance to declare victory on a celebrity.
We’ve been arguing with idiots for decades now.
In my case, since the late 1960s as a kid, starting with the Vietnam war.
And here we are 58 years later, living in a failing democracy, currently being run by Fascists in the service of the Oligarchies. While being supported by almost half the population, the MAGAs and their associates.
I’m all out of patience with the idiots these days too!!!
I/we may be going down, but at least we are going down fighting.
I’m all out of patience but the amount of anger and determination I’ve acquired is large and doing just fine.
It’s hard to remember these days, but in the past the good people actually won a few here and there.
The Vietnam war ended, the Civil Rights movement got a lot of laws passed, and so on.
The state I live in has decided to hand out money meant for public schools to not public schools.
I happened to be home one day when I started watching the local noon news with the sound off and was jaw-on-the-floor aghast at seeing an ad for a new Academy. The ad literally showed a, “classroom,” with folding tables and chairs. Another photo showed pews.
You want to ruin these peoples fun, you tax them. You don’t reward them.
trying to talk over each other with meaningless emotional appeals. Internet debates (and any discussion with xtian terrorists) are like trying to reason with a rattlesnake.
Everyone here will understand how important this cartoon is, especially PZ:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2025/5/18/2321423/-Cartoon-Medical-research?pm_campaign=front_page&pm_source=top_news_slot_1&pm_medium=web
How do you debate someone who is allowed to use “it was magic” as a legitimate explanation in their favor?
I don’t know why either side bothers with these things.
Wow, sorry, somehow my first sentence didn’t get posted above.
There are almost no real debates anywhere, What passes for debate is people . . .
Yes it does not look very useful does it. At a certain level of ignorance one gets impervious to any kind of reasoning, and then the sky’s the limit.
Problem is, a robust percentage of the population is now capable of believing absolutely anything and their hallucinations are getting wilder and wilder as time passes. Apart from their self-harming behaviors (no-vaxx, weird diets, bleach gargling, what have you) they are easily manipulated by whoever finds it convenient to do so. A new generation of useful idiots, if you will.
And reasoned argument is seldom useful anyway, it seems:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/may/18/change-mind-evidence-arguing-social-relationships
Homo non sapiens sine (e)motus?
I’d much rather listen to Erika geek out on something new and cool that I don’t know (which is pretty much everything). But then again it’s not really intended for us but for them, right? Doesn’t everybody deserve to hear the truth, even if they choose to reject it? I don’t know if it makes any difference, but at least it’s a noble endeavor.
I like your latin @16 outis. If I remember correctly that is: humans, not wise and without emotions. Sadly, I think you are correct for WAAAYY to many people. I think we’ve reached ‘full herd stupidity’. Or, I express it regarding the knuckle-dragging mouth-breather xtian terrorist magats I find that: ‘logic eludes them’
“As for effectiveness, I can think of nothing that shuts down humans faster than making fun of them.”
Fear.
@19, I believe you are correct, John. In this case, it seems we are dealing with fear of eternal torment, and that’s a biggie.
I have seen multiple comments here and elsewhere along the lines of “we have to deal with such stupid/ignorant/irrational people now”. Please tell me when it was not so. When were humans not faced with dealing with other humans who were stupid, ignorant, or irrational? The dumb ideas need to be stomped on with gusto.
Imagine you’re in a lifeboat hundreds of miles from shore with a bunch of other people. There is a slow leak somewhere allowing water in. Some people are doing their best to bail the water but there’s one guy who keeps yelling that he needs to drill a hole in the bottom of the boat. Other people ask him to explain and he says “It’s science! Gravity! Water always runs downhill! If we drill a hole, the water will drain out the bottom because it’s the lowest point!” We would like to think that the vast majority of passengers recognize him as a crank and would ignore him, or maybe even gag him, but I think history shows that such is not the case. Seriously, what would you do in case like that, especially if that guy is anywhere near a sharp, metal tool?
@21 Why, teach the controversy of course sigh
But I love yr example, mind if I steal it?
[indianajones, only way you could steal it is you don’t attribute it]
@jimf #21:
I would start to wonder what long pig tastes like.
dangerousbeans @1:
Agreed. As much as I appreciate Gutsick Gibbon’s work, this “debate” just isn’t for me. Aside from a few colossally dumb claims from a very small number of these debates, all of the “evidence” by the creationists are from the “Index of Creationist Claims” page from the TalkOrigins website, which already has the fully detailed arguments against every creationist claim brought up. And what point would there be in scrubbing past the other parts, if I’m only contributing to the fraudsters’ page count and ad revenue?
HidariMak, good point. It’s very much same old same old.
The Panda’s Thumb is also rather extensive. PZ was part of that.
Anyway, it’d be most amusing for such a debate to be [creationist claim] → [debunking citation].
I’d volunteer, in an online text challenge — not so much to debate, but more for the yucks. :)
HidariMak @25 — Well, in this case, the debate was moderated by Donny, but the link is at Erika’s channel, so the fraudsters’ page count and ad revenue from watching it there is minimal.
@ Morales
I think some time ago the internet came up with a term for someone who “debates” for the yucks (or as people say in this century lulz). Something related to dwelling under a bridge perhaps.
Silentbob–
That is not the definition of trolling, and you know it.
@29: In my experience, it’s close, but misses the vital component of arguing in bad faith. If you can maintain intellectual integrity and sincerity while simultaneously having fun, you’re not a troll, but at risk of being perceived as one. If you utterly lack that honesty, then yeah, you’re trolling.
At least we can get some laughs out of the mess; Two horrible religious films, dissected by God Awful Movies:
GAM406 “Evolution vs. God”
.https://youtube.com/watch?v=65reVZBmH7w
and the muslim
God Awful Movies 50: “Day (sic) When Sun Rises in the West”
.https://youtube.com/watch?v=bxt3cTN3gOU
My favourite is the lower one- they stick to a cosmogony dating to when the world was considered flat. So the sun can reverse its course as a sign of “Boss God closing you down!”
@28, 29, 30
Silentbob’s onto something there. “Debate Bro” is more specific as a term for someone who debates for the yucks, though.
Trolling is a pattern of antisocial behavior with the goal of getting an entertaining reaction out of someone. Its usage on the internet seems to have shifted to “someone who disagrees with me”. It’s unfortunate, because those people are blind to all the trolls who reflexively agree with them and try to feed increasingly extreme clique dynamics, again, with the goal of getting entertaining reactions out of an entire group of people.
@ ^ And talking of dishonest trolls heeeeere’s beholder, the exhibit A of dishonest trolls still remaining on this blog.
As #30. Recursive Rabbit rabbit noted : ” If you utterly lack that honesty, then yeah, you’re trolling.”
You, beholder with your blood stained, Trump-enabling hands are utterly dishonest indeed. Pretending to be a progressive & left wing whilst helping Trump for starters.
@28. Silentbob : As #29 chrislawson has noted that ain’t the definition of troll. Also I have some questions for you to answer please here :
https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2025/05/16/mokele-mbembe/#comment-2265477
@23 Morales
Don’t presume to inform or instruct me ever again.
Legitimate criticism is important. BUT, I have gotten angry and tired of @33 stevoR’s many ongoing vicious, petty, personal accusations and attacks of others here. Australia has some great people, like Barry Kauler.
But, stevoR needs to admit Australia’s government is as evil and corrupt as he accuses others of being:
‘Australia’s leaders remain wedded to the business of selling weapons and weapons parts to Israel’
https://scheerpost.com/2025/05/20/nothing-to-see-here-australias-hidden-arms-trade-with-israel/
I have nothing to say about the debate that hasn’t already been said, but I looked at that ‘Standing For Truth’ logo, and the first thing that came to my mind was…
… do the people who created that logo realize that both the creators of Superman were Jewish?
@35. shermanj :
What attacks exactly? I reject your mischaracterisation of me consistently holding one Trump enabling commenter here – beholder – accountable for their actions that they would rather everyone just forgot and asking questions to their defender Silentbob – here. I presume that’s what you refer to?
If you think you are angry at me for that, well, I can assure you it’s nowhere near as angry and disappointed as I am about their conduct prior to the last – both senses of word – USoA election in solely attacking the Democratic party whilst ignoring the blatant Fascism of the ONLY alternative and voting in effect for Trump whilst excusing that by faux ultra-progressivism and support for a Putin supporting spoiler who also spoiled the 2016 election and helped Trump win then. I don’t consider that a “petty” matter or one where calling it out is “vicious” or “personal.”
Do you think my ”attacks” are unjustified as you imply? If so, why?
Do you think beholder should be treated as a serious and reasonable and credible commenter here after this deceptive and unethical conduct which has resulted in the actual fucking death of the USA as we have known it with all the consequences to Climate, Democracy, the global rise of Reichwing extremism and yes, Gaza too that have and will ensue?
Especially given beholders refusal to reflect on and apologise and face the results of their actions which I feel safe in presuming went beyond just this blog as well.
I haven’t heard of him. Will have to look him up.
Well, I don’t think that’s true. As evil and corrupt as Trump? As Putin’s Russia? As who exactly?
I do agree Australia’s current Albanese government has been disappointing and wish they would come out stringer against what the genocide in Gaza and take far better actions and have far better policies on Global Overheating and refugees but I do NOT see my current govt as anywhere near as bad as Trump’s etc .. There is a spectrum and relative better and worse here.
Even if I did “admit” / agree with you on the relative evil of my govt; what has that got to do with calling out beholder for their actions and words here – separate issues I’d say. If you disagree, well, why so?
@ ^ For the record I voted for the Australian Greens last election – earlier this month – putting the ALP (the current governing party) 2nd. Something which I could do without risking the very worst of the worst taking power because we have a preferential voting system here in Oz.
Something I’ve noted before and noted that it or a similar type of reform to remove third party spoilers from being, well, spoilers in the USoA. If Iwas unfortunate enough to be an Amercian I would’ve voted for Kamala Harris and done absolutley everything I could have done to see that she and NOT Treump had been elected.
Also for clarity : I wish they would come out
stringerstronger againstwhatthe genocide in Gaza..The “what” left in after editing my original sentence version was my fault but baffled the Word spellcheck didn’t catch the mispelling of “stronger.” .
I have prepared an open and honest response to StevoR’s above questions of me. I am being responsible in not putting these off-topic comments here. So, anyone may read my opinions expressed at:
http://theartsinarizona.org/shermanjforpharyngula.htm
[shermanj, something is not right with your encoding, noble as your rebuttal’s intent and thoughtfulness are.]
Example
if not then de facto – in fact as I’ve factually statedis what I get, and there is nothing wrong with my settings, other than my hygienic filtering, so maybe it would display well were I to enable any of the dozen or so other domains in your link. But I don’t need to do that to read the content, of course.(In the spirit of helpful criticism)
John, I appreciate your constructive comment. it is probably that what I was copying and pasting was in a different character set: maybe ansi instead of utf8. There are dozens of different character sets in use. As long as the basic message works, I’m going to leave it as is. I use a number of different operating systems and each edits in a different default character set and it’s a pain to try to find and switch character sets in most of the software.
@39. shermanj : Been meaning to respond to this for a while but life keeps getting in the way. I’m going to respond here because I’m unfamiliar with your blog and you have the power there and are antagonistic to me at least on this.
I really don’t think you get it.
I don’t think you appreciate the global catastrophe that beholder and the others who put Trump in power have done. I don’t think you realise the magnitude of the harm caused and the level of harm and tragedy and horror that beholder and those like him have inflicted on us all for all our futures.
Do you not realise why me and those like me are so furious here?
Why with so much harm now inevitable, trying to hold those responsible for it is the very least we should be doing?
shermanj via linked blog post in #39 :
(Allcaps original.)
I don’t think its “arrogant” to try to hold people accountable for what they have said and done and the very real catastrophic damage that it has caused the world. Beholder through failing to vote the only rational and ethical way has made the world a vastly worse place. I do NOT think that should be overlooked especially as beholder continues their behaviour and refuses to face the consequences of their actions.
I do not feel that those who supported and enabled Trump should be made welcome and comfortable on this blog – but yes, its PZ’s call to make – However, when those people that supported and enabled Trump’s fascist takeover of the USA are here I think its fair that that fact be brought to people’s attention and they be called out for it and criticised which other commenters are always allowed to do as well.
If you do not like my replies doing so feel free to skip them and skim down to the comments you are personally more interested in.
Okay, thanks I hadn’t heard of him.
Well, I’m not defending it and I’ll state for the record that I do NOT think Australia should be helping arm Israel at all. Its not the topic here and Australia is not a particularly major supplier of arms with Israel with them of course having their own arms industry but yeah, on this I think we agree – it is wrong and shouldn’t be happening.
I don’t think it has anything to do withcalling out beholder for what they & the rest of the Purity Disunity mob in the USA have done to the rest of us on Earth..
I’ll also add that I feel a bit unfairly singled out by you here given the likes of what Vicar, beholder and others did previously and the years of Silentbob attacking John Morales without – that I can recall – you doing anything similar to them. I don’t grasp why what I’m doing here seem to irk you so much more than what they did.
PS. Allcaps really? Also your blog is not exactly easy to read with everything jammed up together without empty line spaces if you want some hopefully constructive feedback. Seriously – no sarcasm intended.
^ Missing word fix :
Why with so much harm now inevitable, trying to hold those responsible for it accountable is the very least we should be doing?