But here I am. For sure, no one jacked up Biden on drugs before this thing started. He’s coming off as slow, old, and fumbling.
Meanwhile, Trump just lies and exaggerates, while Biden looks on like he’s stunned. Debates don’t get fact-checked apparently.
Not looking good.
Trump couldn’t answer any question, except with lies, and he was constantly turning every response into claims about immigration. The only problem we have is millions of people pouring over the border, apparently. It was most glaring when he was asked about climate change and he had nothing to say except immigration, immigration, immigration.
Fucking Christ. Trump brought up his “cognitive test” again — those things only assess a minimal level of function. He did not “ace” them. You can’t ace that kind of test.
Biden was competent in his policy answers, but dear god, he is reinforcing the idea that he’s old.
Final impression is that in Trump’s world, America is failing and is on the brink of WWIII, while Biden is planning to be a caretaker president, a bureaucrat coasting to the retirement. The whole affair was uninspiring, and there was not one spark of charisma anywhere.
Speaking of caretakers coasting to the end, Bash and Tapper were pointless and ineffectual — there was no moderation to speak of.
I hate debates.
The USSR once was mocked for being a gerontocracy, but now behold the USA!
I just got hit with commercials promoting tourism to Turkey and Mongolia. They’re looking attractive.
Apparently one of the terms of the debate is that the moderators wouldn’t fact check Trump. Probably why Trump accepted bad terms on so many other things.
2/3 of the way neither has made a big mistake. Biden made a bunch of verbal slips, Trump made some absurdly silly claims.
Trump used a Gish Gallop on several occasions to flip through a bunch of bogus claims before Biden got to respond. I love that Gish Gallop is making it’s way into general knowledge.
Trump is constantly lying and making things up, but Biden looks pale and has a very raspy voice. The ignorant will judge this on Trump’s bluster. We may be doomed.
Ah well, the end days of an America as sold to Americans. I’m sure more than a few countries are basking in a bit of schadenfreude right about now.
Gerontocratic kleptocratic plutarchy with a veneer of democracy.
I watched a bit on the BBC site — it is rather dismal.
@6 John Morales. It is rather sad that either of these guys is in the running.
Trump did start to lose it towards the end started to make over the top lies. Conspiracy theory level claims that Biden is trying to destroy the country with open borders. Claims that the country is failing. A bad attempt at a joke about Biden getting money from China and being a “Manchurian” candidate. I expect to see Qanon posts claiming this was a secret clue to the insiders within a day or so. This is overplaying his hand to anybody paying attention but how much impact it will have on undecided voters at this point is hard to say.
The moderators did mostly keep things under control. They let Trump and Biden go back and forth a bit outside the rules but didn’t let them interrupt each other or use up extra time. They pointed out a couple of times when Trump didn’t even try to answer a question but didn’t let him use up extra time.
This debate was pointless. Biden is the only choice but he hasn’t looked more lifeless.
Biden was catatonic. Raspy, fumbling, staring off into space, blank expression.
Trump blew Biden away because Biden wasn’t there. Biden tried his greatest hits, Scranton and malarkey, but he sounded like an old feeb in a rocker on the porch.
So, Biden screwed all of us and himself. Biden’t team let him get sick, didn’t fix his throat and sent him out there on Nyquil. So, it’s game over. This was a must win for Biden and he was slow, disoriented, disjointed, weak and feeble.
The DNC needs to declare an emergency, pull Biden out and put in someone 40 years younger. We need a relief pitcher because our guy got no fast ball.
Debates are pointless. I haven’t watched one since Obama took on John McCain in 2008 and I have no intention of doing so in the future. I’m going to vote for Biden because I have to, not because I want to, no amount of debating is going to change that.
Thanks for that last part, JM.
(You suffered so that I didn’t have to! ;) )
—
Doc Bill: “The DNC needs to declare an emergency, pull Biden out and put in someone 40 years younger.”
Far too late for that, at least before the election.
You know one thing that holds parties back during elections? A perception that they are not united and working together, a perception that they themselves don’t believe in their leader.
This “debate” was Biden’s to lose, and I think he lost it. I’m now very afraid.
And I note that nobody brought up Project 2025. I think I remember a couple of questions about getting rid of Social Security and mass deportations; but he was asked whether he supported that and was allowed to veer off into other topics. I wish he had been asked to defend his stated policy instead.
My only hope comes from knowing that lots can happen between now and the election.
<
blockquote>…there was no moderation to speak of.<\blockquote>
It was term of the debate.
Seems like the DNC just found out why it is unwise to put up an 81 year old low energy candidate against a 79 year old lying showman.
The State of the Union Biden was MIA, as one easy counter-punch after another went undelivered. Why not point out the absurdity of the leaders of China, Russia, and North Korea wanting Trump, as the reason why Trump can’t be trusted to challenge them? Why not point out that ignoring the invasion of European countries in World War 2 proved to be a bad idea, and that the pro-Nazi Americans’ claims of “but the ocean though” didn’t change that?
For that matter, why didn’t Biden counter the claim of America’s economy being in shambles, with the recent news of America’s financial success buoying the rest of the world economies? Why not address directly the current record job numbers, the record drop in crime, and the recent all-time highs in the key stock markets such as Nasdaq? Why not address the much lower ratio of violent crime committed by immigrants, when compared to violent crime committed by native born Americans? Trump and “team MAGAt” have been pushing these lies for months, and this was Biden’s chance to address those falsehoods nationally. Biden blew it, on one of the key days to not have a bad day.
Well, congrats, all you people who insisted the Democrats had to stick with Biden even if he wasn’t liked even by the base*, because Unity, Blue No Matter Who, Trump Would Be Worse, Third Parties Are A Wasted Vote, whatever. You got the candidate you asked for and deserve. If Biden loses, he and the party absolutely deserve it, and deserve whatever Trump is planning as his revenge against them. It’s not like you could possibly have known better than to nominate and support somebody who was famed in his time for being anti-abortion, pro-segregation, and to the right of the Reagan administration. Thank you ever so much for dragging the rest of us along with you.
*In a Pew Research poll back in April, 62% of people who said they were voting for Biden wished that Biden and Trump were replaced as candidates, while an additional 2% said they didn’t care about Trump but wanted to replace Biden, so we have 64% of Democratic voters not actually liking Biden. Overall, 49% of all voters said they wanted to replace both and an additional 18% just wanted to replace Biden. Take a guess how Biden’s performance tonight will alter those numbers. Go on.
@John Morales, #11:
I would feel much less hostile towards the Democrats — although I still would refuse to vote for Biden himself — if I thought the party was divided and that behind the scenes Biden had handlers who kept him away from doing anything too extremely stupid, like Reagan had and apparently Trump kinda-sorta had. But as the continuous trickle of public resignations from the White House staff have shown, Biden is absolutely at the helm, a senile militant Cold Warrior who wants to ensure the US has control of all that oil which will kill us if we burn it, is actively insistent on genocide (but repeatedly lying to the public about his preferences), and is adamant that the party must increase funding for the cops who will be the ones Trump will be using to enforce his will if he wins. I have observed for some time that what Biden really wants is to be Ronald Reagan, but without the restraint of having opposition from the Democratic Party; he’s made it clear that he also wants to be Reagan in terms of falling into senility while in office. What a great choice.
Hey, remember back in 2019 when Biden was suggesting that he wouldn’t run for reelection? It’s hilarious that anybody believed that. Every one of the ridiculous Democratic Leadership Council idiots that runs the Democratic Party now is absolutely a self-important power-hungry fool who can’t possibly imagine leaving the corridors of power no matter how obviously disastrous their continued tenure may be. Look at Ruth Ginsberg, who was not only old enough to retire but had cancer, but even so refused to leave office during Obama’s first term because she seriously believed that the widely-hated nitwit Hillary Clinton would win the Presidency, and wanted to be the judge to swear her in. We would, now, be in a significantly better position if she had just retired from politics in 2009 — but that would have required her to put the country ahead of her own ego. (Come to think of it, you can say that exact same last sentence about Hillary Clinton herself.)
Jon Stewart is pretty scathing.
Bah.
Trump is just worse, on every single policy axis you can name.
Go on, Vicar, name one (just one) where Trump is better.
Environment, finance, global power, education, health, you name it.
(You won’t)
But hey, which “Third Partiy” is not a wasted vote?
Every vote not for Biden is one more net vote in favour of Trump.
This is fact.
Time for the US to move to preferential voting like Australia. I can vote Greens first, Labor second, and the Greens (and everyone else) know their proportion of the vote, get electoral funding and other good things, and the vote the goes to Labor (in most seats) and helps elect a marginally less-awful centrist neoliberal party… but I didn’t waste my vote by voting for a party whose policies I can actually support.
The debate was a clear demonstration of two things: the infinite evilness of the Republican party, and the infinite incompetence of the Democratic party. There was a Democratic primary and while the candidates were not very exciting, having a debate back then would have shown how miserable Biden looks. But well since Democrats!
It reminds me of a recent experience that I had as a teacher/instructor. Sometimes a student who had 0 knowledge, submits an extremely high quality report that gets the full grade but during the oral exam it turns out they know absolutely nothing. It makes me wonder what is the thought process behind such a behavior, I mean, they should surely expect to be exposed during the exam, no? Well it turns out that the Democratic party tried the political equivalent of that this year with their candidate crushing the primary but getting exposed in the general election. Fucking idiots.
Oz has compulsory voting.
Means you have to get signed-off, not that you have to make a valid vote, but you gotta check in and submit a ballot.
In the USA, special-interest groups can motivate their members (ahem, NRA, Evangelicals) to vote), while the disengaged have no particular reason to vote, as they see it.
(FWTW, and riffing off bravus)
From Australia: “The presidential debate has thrown Joe Biden’s age right back in the spotlight. There have been doubts about whether he can handle another term as president, with many Americans — even his supporters — saying they don’t think he can be an effective president anymore.
Donald Trump is not far behind. He is the second oldest person to ever be president.
But across the board, America has some of the oldest politicians in the world and finding a younger alternative isn’t as easy as it might seem.”
ABC News In-depth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sSp76Yf0QM
(15 minutes)
I said early on that Biden should not be running, but there was no way to replace him. Following this debate, I think maybe there is (if there is not, we’re pretty much doomed). Senior Democrats need to convince Jill Biden that her husband has to stand aside.
@bravus– Australia’s preferential system is vastly superior to the US electoral method, but it still encourages a lot of backroom chicanery (preference deals and the like) and tactical voting and still tends to reinforce a two-party polity. Probably even better is a proportional system. The main downside is that often there is no clear majority winner and the most popular party then has to negotiate with other parties to pass legislation…which may not be such a downside after all.
The American system is the Texas Hold ‘Em of politics — good for drama, terrible for choosing political representatives.
[longish] Biden vs Trump Debate: brutally honest reaction [Vlad Vexler]:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rVY5kBODTw
We’ve been having televised debates here in the UK too, though only half of them have been head to heads between the leaders of the two main parties. This has been a double-edged sword, however, since the increased publicity for the only decent party among them (the Greens, whom I have voted for already by post) has been balanced by additional coverage of Gammon-in-chief Nigel Farrage.
The thing that bemuses me about the US version, though, is that you’re having these events in June when your election takes place in November. UK political pundits have debates about whether anyone will remember what Starmer and Sunak have said in their TV appearances the WEEK BEFORE the vote, let alone five months prior. It seems very likely that nobody will remember a blind thing about this debacle by mid July.
@The Vicar (via Freethoughtblogs)
Complaining about the candidates we have now is pointless, because the time to do something about it was in 2020.
Let me make this point once again: No matter which way this election goes and no matter if you want to go Democrat or third-party, if you want a better candidate in 2028, you need to start working on it NOW.
I mean that seriously. Who is your proposed candidate? Who do you want to position for a presidential run in 2028? If you don’t come up with answer to that, someone else will make the decision for you. And then we’ll be right back here again.
cartomancer@27,
The Trumpists only have to replay Biden’s feeble appearance and meandering answers day after day.
No, it isn’t, because Biden could and should abandon his campaign for re-election and release his delegates to the Democratic Convention now. Senior Democrats need to convince Jill Biden that her husband has to stand aside.
You seiously think that if Trump returns to the Presidency, there will be anythnig resembling a free election in 2028?
KG, #29
Did they not have enough footage of that already? Would they not be showing his previous gaffes and indiscretions if he hadn’t made new ones?
Personally, I’d be much more comfortable with “doddering old buffer” than “angry lying madman” at the helm of an important project, so I’m not sure whether this is going to be all that damaging.
It’s pretty bad indeed; Cenk Uygur is ropable.
Trump Told Horrific Lies and Biden Let Him in First Presidential Debate of 2024
@KG #30
Far too late for that. It would be tantamount to handing Trump the election on a silver platter.
This is my point. The way the system works, these things are decided years before the public gets involved. This is part of how the party bureaucracies keep control of things; by presenting the voters with a fait accompli. By the time the average person even notices that election time is coming around again, it’s far too late to start building support for an alternative candidate.
No, that’s why I’d recommend holding your nose, voting Biden, and then immediately start working towards someone better in 2028.
Don’t even wait around to see how this election goes. Start. Right. Now. Believe me, if you don’t already have a short list, you’re playing catch-up to the people who will be handing you another Biden in four years.
Watched the whole painful, ugly, depressing thing here. Trump got away with so many lies and avoiding so many questions.Yes Biden’s performance was very disappointing & he did come across as really old and failing. Terrible body language & superficial appearances which really should NOT matter but fear it will. Far better someone old than an outright fascist liar & deluded psychopath.
Biden had – has – the facts and truth on his side. Trump lied so blatantly. Appearances & superficialities (body language, stumbling over words, style, voice, gaffes) here may have really hurt Biden but the substance is in his favour. If only that counted. In hindsight maybe the debate should’ve been done on paper and by written responses to questions from moderators and each other? Too late now, What you say & whether it’s true or not should be the most important thing. Should be..
Neither of these old men should be in charge of the USA. But one of them will be.
So which one?
Choose wisely please Americans. Vote Democratic please because so much depends on it including so very much beynd juts the United States of America.
Well, it’s all doom and gloom, no?
—
StevoR, you touch on a point PZ made and others also mentioned: “Debates don’t get fact-checked apparently.”
See, that’s the very point!
Biden could have “fact-checked” — that is, called out bullshit and lies.
Should have.
Or changed the narrative and spin.
Pointed out how Trump was shoehorning “criminal migration” in every response without reason
Or something.
That’s the very point of this sort of debate! See who is most with it, who looks more “presidential”.\
Ah well.
(Good luck, USA, you need it)
That’s because you don’t understand the central role salience – what issues are at the front of voters’ minds – plays in elections. The Republicans have been doing their utmost to foreground Biden’s alleged incapacity – that he’s a “doddering old buffer”. The debate brought that issue into sharp focus and will bring it to the top of the media agenda just as large numbers of undecided voters are beginning to notice there’s an election. The only hope, if Biden remains the candidate, is that it will be displaced by other events, but the Republicans and the media will do their best to ensure it isn’t. If Trump and his team have any sense, they will decline further debates, not risking Biden putting up a better performance.
You may be right, and if you are, we’re doomed, because Biden will lose to Trump after that abject failure. But I don’t think so: provided Biden remains as President but fades into the background as far as possible, media attention will switch to “Who will be the Democratic candidate?” until the Democratic Convention in late August. If the Convention then makes a good choice and unites behind them as they take on Trump in a way Biden simply hasn’t done even before this fiasco, I think they will have a much better chance than Biden.
Saying that Biden should step back would be a horrible idea and all but guarantee a Trump victory,
Why? Because he would just need to point and say “look, even the democrats say that their candidate is a doddering old fool unfit for office” and that would end any presidential aspirations of whoever the dems could nominate. Would you trust a party who picked Biden only then to panic at a pretty minor and inconsequential debate, throw all plans they had out of the window and nominate some candidate out of embarassment? Sorry, if you are that much lacking in cool and reason, why let you rule?
And yes, this debate is minor and inconsequential and will be forgotten by next week. As far examples of senility go, Trump has provided just as much in the last few weeks, so don’t act as if age is only Biden’s problem.
Unfortunately, it’s not just a question of what happens in and to the USA. If Trump returns to power, we already know he will trash all constraints on the fossil fuel mafia, as well as supporting fascists around the world. The chances of our civilisation surviving Trump II are negligible.
That’s simply delusional. Neither the Republicans nor the media are going to let that happen.
KG #39
So? They have been attacking Biden for his age this entire time, so what exactly is different now? In truth this debate didn’t reveal anything new and didn’t give Trump any new avenues of attack.
Stop being a headless chicken that plays into the hands of the fascists.
Looks like my expectations have been met. Going to hold my nose, vote Biden, and expand protests against the two-party system afterward.
I’m with AugustusVerger on this. Given that the Republicans’ own candidate is more or less the same age as Biden, even more cognitively impaired than Biden, makes less coherent sense than Biden, looks far less healthy than Biden and, furthermore, has a tendency towards angry narcissism, their choice to put age and mental capability front and centre instead of policies and track record is not the winning strategy some people seem to think it is. If anything it’s shooting themselves in the foot, because it draws attention to the fact Trump is failing by these same metrics even more significantly.
As I said, doddering old buffer is a far preferable choice to angry lying madman with all else being equal. If that is the criteria the media wants people to decide on then Biden will win every time. Because anyone put off by Biden’s incompetence is not going to switch their vote to the even more obvious incompetence of Trump.
@bravus #20:
No amount of tweaking the electoral system will change the fact that a misinformed population will keep voting against its own interest.
Look at other countries with different electoral systems: they are still facing the same challenges as the US.
In the end, if you allow information and the media to be controlled by few rich fucks that can afford to buy “think tanks”, newspapers, social media and whatever, the population will know and feel what those rich fucks want, and vote accordingly.
I didn’t watch the debate either.
Our current political situation is appalling.
I will certainly vote for the Democrats and Biden but Biden’s one superpower is that he is not a Republican and not Donald Trump. That counts for a lot.
Utter garbage. It’s the very fact that they have been attacking Biden for his age this entire time which makes his appalling performance at this debate so damaging. It appeared to confirm everything the Republicans have been saying about Biden. It has made Biden’s obvious decline since 2020 the central topic of the campaign, as the Republicans have been trying to make it for months. You don’t need to take my word for it – even Harris admitted Biden made a “slow start” – but take a look around and see what the media (and I don’t mean those in the Trump cult) are saying.
According to a post-debate CNN poll, those watching gave the debate to Trump by 2 to 1.
This is like reading comments after another woeful England performance at Euro 2024.
I’ll just assume there are enough Americans who are sufficiently alarmed at the prospect of another Trump presidency to keep the status quo in November. May not be realistic, but it might delay the heavy drinking until then.
In blog posts about debating, our host often comments on the problems debating a Gish Galloper even in forums more heavily moderated that what CNN did. To paraphrase Driftglass, CNN performed to specifications.
Even if Biden had a spectacular performance, CNN and most media commentators would be dragging him down like they did for Gore after the debate that he did win by all metrics.
I notice that people like KG who insist that Biden be replaced NOW NOW NOW NOW are pretty darn coy about suggesting a concrete replacement and an explantion why that replacement would have higher chances to win and how the democratic party could avert the inevitable portrayal of them as weak, panicky, cowardly and insecure. So Biden goes and then…uh, profit!
Sorry, until you can actually make a reasoned argument for who would make a good replacement, all you demonstrate is the headless chicken and mindless actionism approach that won’t help anyone but the fascists.
#48
The more I have seen of CNN lately, the more it reminds of Fox News when it still used the tagline ‘Fair and Balanced’. It is not a good look.
As for the debate, well I have never been happy about voting for President and have always voted for the lesser of two evils. I will take the man who is looking the other way on genocide rather than the one who gets excited with the prospect of participating in the elimination of 2 million people.
KG, #45
The kind of people who place stock in these silly little games are not a good representation of the voting public. Besides, would any of those people in the CNN poll actually consider changing their vote from Biden to Trump? Is there any kind of person who would think “oh, the non-insane one looks a bit tired, I’d better vote for boggle-eyed fascism then”?
@AugustVerger – Several other viable names are being floated, including Gretchen Whitmer and Gavin Newsome. (As a MI resident, I think Whitmer’s great.)
Other choices include Buttegieg (ugh) and Harris (double ugh).
I’m sure there are others.
The NYT comments section, usually a redoubt of centrist smugness and arrogance, is in a complete panic. There’s a sense that the Dems have totally lost the plot, and also rage that the Dems have been lying and gaslighting over Biden’s fitness. Comparisons to Ginsburg and Feinstein everywhere.
Doesn’t matter, none of them would have a chance because the Republicans would gain a major win by the dems abandoning Biden in a headless panic. That in would in fact give the Republicans the legitmacy to undo whatever Biden has done during his presidency and support the myth of the stolen election.
After all, the democrats would be practically admitting that all of it was a mistake and the work of a doddering old fool who they knew was unfit to rule.
@ AugustusVerger : Imagine we wake up tothe news that Biden has passed away peacefuly in his sleppe of old ge tomorrow.
I don’t think that’s too implausible is it?
Then what?
Yesterday’s debate wasn’t quite that.
But nearly kinda, maybe. Think about it. At what point if ever does age and its implucations become an issue? Are we there yet with both? If not, why not?
Him dying in his sleep is quite different from him getting backstabbed because the dems decide to go for headless chicken panic. One has human agency, the other doesn’t.
@ ^ AugustusVerger : True but then what? In hypothetical scenarios.
Oh and if he doesn’t die but is merely exposed as metally unfit to be POTUS? Then what?
Noticed you did not answer my last questions in #53 here too,AugustusVerger . Please would you do so.
Buddy, what part of “human agency” didn’t you get?
@ ^ AugustusVerger : The part where you specifically did ot answr the questions I asked you.
^ Not answer
If he dies, he dies. I don’t see why I should waste time thinking about that until it happens. Trump is however just as old and of considerably worse health and could himself well die or suffer a debilitating stroke before November.
We cross that bridge when we reach it.
Jesus, bloke had a bad evening and it’s Chicken Littles all around.
@61 Rob Grigjanis: A lot of Chicken Little going around. In part because Democratic party insiders panicked and talked about it to the news people, a huge mistake. Even if they were unhappy with Trump’s performance the Republican officials wouldn’t have said anything publicly immediately.
And really, Biden didn’t do as bad as some people are making it out. Trump did better but made silly over the top lies, ones that even the politically unaware would know are lies. Claiming that everybody wanted abortion returned to the states, claiming that the country is failing, that the state prosecution of Trump is purely political and more.
Is the test Trump is talking about the one where you have to identify animals and things like that ?
It’s the “person, woman, man, camera, tv” one that Trump can’t stop bragging about. You know, the one that basically tests if you are still alive as a baseline.
Well… I took that test.