I’ve heard this sort of call to action many times before. Here’s Marco Rubio with his solution to the Israel/Palestine problem.
I don’t think there’s any way Israel can be expected to coexist or find some diplomatic offramp with these savages. I mean, these are people, as you have been reporting and others have seen, that deliberately targeted teenage girls, women, children, the elderly, not just for rape and murder, but then dumping their bodies off in the streets of Gaza, where the crowds can then defile their lifeless bodies.
I mean, just horrifying things. And I don’t think we know the full extent of it yet. I mean, there’s more to come in the days and weeks ahead. You can’t coexist. They have to be eradicated.
“Savages.” “They have to be eradicated.” What a familiar sentiment! And what a deplorable perspective.
Notice that Tapper pointed out that a million of the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are children, and Rubio just ignored that reality to call for their murder. I agree that the individuals who executed that horrific attack were evil people who need to be caught and punished, that there should be no forgiveness for their crimes, but that’s very different from pointing at an entire people, most of whom had nothing to do with the attack, and declaring that they all, women, children, the elderly, need to be eradicated. Wrong. They all deserve to live happy lives, a right they’ve been denied, and only the guilty need to be removed from civil society.
I’m just afraid that Rubio’s attitude is going to be popular among the right-wing fascists. When horrors are piling up on horrors, you don’t end the cycle by adding fresh horrors to the pile.
There isn’t going to be a way out of this with people cheering on horrific acts of murder.
The Palestinians are trapped in the West Bank by a surrounding Israeli apartheid policy, while the Gaza Strip holds 2.5 million Palestinians living in a 15,000-per-square-mile hell hole, again fully controlled by Israel. The two-state solution is truly the only solution, but it is prevented by an Israel that continues to take what little Palestinian land still exists while Hamas is a a terrorist organization that wants a return to a complete Palestinian homeland. Hamas needs to be eradicated and the two-state solution needs to be implemented once the terrorists are gone for good. Will that ever happen? Not in our lifetimes.
Which is exactly what will happen.
Nothing new about the current attacks except that Israel was asleep at the wheel.
There are around 900 dead Israelis by now.
In times past, after the inevitable retaliation, the number of dead Palestinians to Israelis runs around 5:1 to 10:1.
In the coming weeks, you can expect 5,000 to 10,000 dead Palestinians.
Most of those will be civilians.
Filed under No Surprise: a Republican is pretty much quoting Kurtz (“Exterminate all the brutes!”) from Heart of Darkness.
This isn’t hard to flip around. “You put yourself with these murderers when you propose death for a group that includes children and non-combatants. You want to kill children too or you would have responded to the point.”
Genocide as Republican party policy.
I often hear that Israel can never find peace since most of their neighbors wish to eradicate them. However, now there are voices moving to have Israel eradicate the Palestinians and Israel has the power to do it. I fear the carnage to come.
It’s worth remembering that the West bears at least some responsibility for this due to its inept, corrupt, self-interested partition of the decaying/destroyed Ottoman Empire (by upper-class twits in various Foreign Offices/Ministries who had never visited the region, acquiesced to by upper-class twits in Departments of State elsewhere because the oil and oil money became more convenient/accessible to them as a result). That these boundaries are being reinforced and exploited by minority governments that maintain their power through campaigns of terror, disinformation, and often outright brainwashing, across the region, should come as little surprise.
It’s worth remembering that religious bigotry is far from unique or confined to this region, and similarly as to purported ethnic/religious uniformity. Just consider the parable of the “good Samaritan,” and ponder the layers and layers of bigotry in there… and the mid-twentieth-century echo in the “good German” (not to mention all of the other echoes in sloganeering for political and personal advantage). I’m not seeing a “Palestinian Lives Matter” campaign (or “Kurdish Lives Matter” or “Sephardic Lives Matter” or…) arising any time soon.
It’s worth remembering that despite the farce of what are called “elections” (for which only a distinct minority of residents are eligible to vote in the first place) in some of the regions nations, every nation/quasination in the region is led by a strongman whose electoral focus has been on external territorial ambitions.† It’s also worth despairing that the result has been theocrats in power across the region; and in that sense, the region is creeping slowly outward.
It’s worth remembering that the West has propped up all of these assholes for various reasons at various times; has intervened repeatedly to ensure certain of them were placed in power to protect various interests, and then paid a price later (not just the CIA in Iran in 1953 — led on site by a Roosevelt!). Of course, the West has done its damndest to ensure that others — like those who reside in the region — paid most of the price.
A pox on all of those who bear responsibility and shirk it. Two years ago, nobody could have predicted this particular set of atrocities; two years ago, everyone paying attention should have been aware of the potential for some set of atrocities. But we had more important things to do, epitomized by Tommy Teletubbyville’s assurance that eleven top-level US military and diplomatic posts related to the region were, as of today, held by temporary appointees with circumscribed authority.
† I’m using polite language here for Reasons. Some of us have past, umm, official engagements with the region. General rule of thumb: Those who really know details seldom talk; those who talk about purported details seldom know; and everything you might hear about from either is based on knowledge at least half a decade in the past.
Netanyahu (himself as close to fascism as the difference making little point) will possibly be forced to take back control over the Gaza strip by public opinion.
It will be a bloody business but Hamas is enforcing a hated dictatorship that will not be missed by the majority.
Gaza used to be the most secular part of Palestine.
Ironically, Israel encouraged the growth of what would later become Hamas- a fundamentalist enemy to the marxist palestinian organisations- and they gave birth to a monster.
Note that the far-right nationalists that govern Israel have never ackniwledged their responsiblility.
They used the same strategy in Southern Lebanon, and the result was Hizbollah. The Israeli rulers are as incompetent as the American rulers with their think tanks and their Monroe doctrine. Remember the overturnung of democracy in Iran in 1954 and what it led to.
A Final Solution is needed. Hah. It’s been working towards this for years. Israel was liberal, radical, communal, cooperative, democratic (if you ignored the Palestinians). Then the settlers came, and needed more land. Plenty of that in occupied territories (if you ignored the Palestinians). The army had to protect their rights, confine the natives, destroy their economy, build settlers- only roads, build a fence round them, shoot the kids who throw stones. Why won’t they accept defeat and go away? Then the extreme right took over, via religious nutcaseism. People who believe that the only thing wrong with Hitler was that Jews were the victims. And extreme rightists are happy to pal up with American ones (who are good at supplying funds, political support, and intelligence), and happy to ignore for the moment that their allies are viciously antisemitic because the big noises only say those nasty things in private.
It’s a good job the bombs and missiles are Hamas- specific and carefully designed to miss non- combatants like medics and children.
I guess the Russians who are killing the elderly, women and children indiscriminately aren’t savages. Also, the lack of Israel’s responsibility (occupation for >50 years) for the situation have been mostly missing from the media’s narrative.
Good luck with that.
I don’t see that this is even possible.
How is Israel going to occupy and administer an area with 2.3 million Palestinians, all of whom hate them?
That makes Israel responsible for all the food, water, shelter, internet, electricity, cell phones, education (half of Gaza are children), and medical care for 2.3 million Palestinians, in their open air prison/concentration camp.
I’m sure they are looking forward to that responsibility.
jacksprocket
Could you just not? It isn’t funny, it isn’t witty, and it fuck all isn’t appropriate
raven>/b>
Technically they already are and yeah, they’re doing either a great or a shitty job, depending on how you look at it.
Of course! Israel (via their lobbying groups) pays Rubio to help their genocide, not criticize it!
No representation in the government that controls them, no freedom of travel, and government taking of property should be causes that the far right rally would against in their own nation. All things they perceive require their un-infringed 2nd amendment arms to protect against. Arms that they envision using to fight their oppressor.
The Palestinians have a media penetration problem to rally support to force a process of peaceful resolution of their cause. Perhaps their message is purposely held back by the conglomerate corporations and mega wealthy individuals controlling the narrative presented in the media. Perhaps they are held back by the violent actions of those who break and take up arms against their oppressors amplified by that media. But perhaps soon both sides will be condemned as wrong for their violence, no tit for tat equated, no weighting of wrongs as if that makes one side right, and relentless unwavering international pressure applied to demand an equitable peace for all people. The past does not control, the status quo does not serve, look to the future that can be.
@12: “It isn’t funny, it isn’t witty, and it fuck all isn’t appropriate”
It wasn’t meant bo be funny, nor witty. Just factual. It IS appropriate.
“You can’t coexist. They have to be eradicated.”
Kindly explain the difference between that and a Final Solution.
jacksprocket
Do not use the fucking Holocaust to bolster your rhetoric. Especially not when talking about Israel, double especially not when the person who made the comment is actually a non Jewish American. Criticise Israel’s policy all day long, and I will agree with a lot of it, but weaponising the Holocaust to criticise not even Israel’s actions, but some bullshit American fascist, is actually anti semitic.
Just finished re-watching The Expanse series. Can’t think of a more faithful fictional depiction of the dynamics at play around Israel, and capital vs workers set in a science fiction universe. They spent almost all of the series resorting to violence as the way to kick conflict down the road. Until the end when the violence reached levels that the peacemakers finally got a say. It seems that Hollywood always prefers their heroes to wield a weapon, whereas it is the peacemakers that are truly heroic in achieving success (a reason I despise the Avatar movies, no peacemaker despite the pretense of a peaceful existence.)
Unfortunately no alien interloper is coming to suddenly restructure the pressures of our world.
Oslo, A Perfect Day, Sergio are hero movies. Anybody else know some?
Damn! Those Palestinians sound almost as bad as the Mexican savages who are sneaking across our border. Rubio can’t be far from wrong about murdering the Palestinian children since they’re obviously being trained to become savages too,
God bless our American politicians.
@17: not rhetoric. Kindly explain the difference between the quoted statement and a Final Solution.
I just read a Swedish-language article about a Swedish guy in Gothenburg named Achmed Madi. He just lost his wife and two children due to the bombings of Gaza .
His wife was not a Swedish citizen, one of his children was.
The kids were in Gaza to visit the mother who was waiting for Swedish authorities to process the request for moving to Sweden.
I find it unlikely that she and the two children had played any part in the attack on Israel.
Jacksprocket
Very unkindly: one thing has happened, the other thing is a wet dream by some asshole not directly involved in the conflict.
We hope. I’d rather not rely on just hope. If Israel is willing to go as far as they have, keeping millions of people in such horrible Apartheid conditions, aka ghetto conditions, it’s not that much farther, morally speaking, to just killing them. Surely one should think about and discuss the possibility of genocide happening before it actually happens so that we might prevent it.
Then maybe Israel should stop following the Nazi playbook of how to handle religious and ethnic minorities.
Oddly, there is a strategy that was explored along those lines-ish.
Put a large army between the two, pound the piss and vinegar our of whoever swung, then diplomatic personnel work on a dual principle, since neither side could eject the novel occupying force and obviously, such would be objectionable, they’d have to work together for an extended period or simply deal with the status quo.
Needless to say, it was a non-starter, no nation has the political will to enforce peace there and accept the casualties that’d ensue for an extended period, see US GWOT for an example.
But, it has historical bona fides. The Romans and Macedonians occupations.
Save, they had zero exit plans. Once habituated to work together, maybe, just maybe they’d start working together.
Otherwise, there are two equally valid pathways, both resulting in obliteration of the populations, let them fight it out or one goes in and obliterates both.
Upside, culturally, one thing is shared. A specific concept.
Me against my brother, me and my brother against my cousin, me, my brother and cousin against an outsider.
Nothing else would work, our nation is ill prepared for this mess, as we’re still young and well, cultural memories are literally thousands of years recallable. If one cannot understand a culture and they’re largely in common, don’t fucking interfere or you’ll only fuck things up more.
That someone invoked that phrase, well, they understand our culture at a Boomer level experience base and well, Boomer history. Became popular after uttered again during Vietnam. It preexisted, but largely ill documented long before. It kept My Lai company.
And honestly, that makes me want to vomit. Well, that and harm the speaker horrifically.
Jaws, I also remember, both before and after Israel decided to, against international law, declare itself a whole nation.
And ejecting Jew and Gentile alike to acquire homes.
Then, it went sideways, until today, when methods utilized a group got suddenly became national policy and I’m actually wondering of ovens are a goal.
The Israeli far right make our far right look timid.
They capitalize upon that pause, politically capturing all far and wide, to support their novel holocaust.
There ain’t no saints, just only sinners.
And a fuckton of dead bodies.
And well, I don’t drink enough.
Downside, my liver refuses to fail.
Re: wzrd1 @ #24…
See Heather Rose Jones, “Welsh History 101B”. Lyrics here: https://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/song-midis/Welsh_History_101.htm
The sooner we have a 100% renewables economy globally the better.
But not the Israeli pilots who willingly bomb hospitals in Gaza from the safety of their state of the art fighter jets, that provoked the Hamas terrorists in the first place.
(Not having a go at PZ. Making a general observation about the disgusting double standards re Hamas and the IDF.)
It’s worth remembering that the West bears at least some responsibility for this due to its inept, corrupt, self-interested partition of the decaying/destroyed Ottoman Empire…
Duly noted. Getting back to the present…
The inevitable retaliation by the Israelis.
Somehow I’m not very impressed.
Airstrikes???
Pro tip to the IDF.
Dropping bombs from jet planes on Gaza isn’t exactly very focused on the Hamas terrorist killers.
In fact, it’s likely that most of the people they are killing have nothing to do with Hamas.
They seem to be turning their open air prison camp/concentration camp into…a prison camp with a lot more rubble and a lot fewer buildings.
And how will this stop Hamas?
raven@30>
it won’t, and I suspect that might be part of the plan.
On the spectrum of asymmetric warfare, both guerilla and terrorism use an old tried-and-true tactic of trying to provoke the occupying force to initiate a “crackdown” or otherwise lash out against the occupied/oppressed people, and then push the more politically neutral of the occupied/oppressed towards identifying with or supporting the resistance/guerilla/terrorist groups fighting against the occupying forces.
@29- Raging Bee
Yeah I dunno about the distal stuff so much. As pissed off as I am at Coyne’s BS rose-color lensing of the 2005 unilateral Gaza disengagement at least it happened like this century. Definitely a far more proximal concern I addressed quite critically on the previous thread. Coyne is as seriously biased a portrayer as so many others.
We could march out the Balfour Declaration in effigy just once more for posterity. Sure. Wait I gotta duck from the multiple potted histories being heaved back and forth. One nearly concussed me. Hamas succeeded when otherwise reasonable people lose their shit on social media.
@Giliell — the only horrific crimes I’m seeing are coming from the Israeli side. Hamas was fully justified, and I hope they succeed this time. Israel has been a plague on the land for 70 years, invading, stealing, and murdering innocents the entire time, and justifying with… Lebensraum.
Oh and if you want a scary Halloween story watch Costner’s Thirteen Days. It used to be my October tradition but I fell away. Never again! Scariest movie ever! At 55 I’m too young to have experienced the horror first hand. Monsters like Nikita Khrushchev and Curtis LeMay!
Oh:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEFCON
“DEFCON 2
Cuban Missile Crisis
During the Cuban Missile Crisis on October 16–28, 1962, the U.S. Armed Forces (with the exception of United States Army Europe (USAREUR)) were ordered to DEFCON 3. On October 24, Strategic Air Command (SAC) was ordered to DEFCON 2, while the rest of the U.S. Armed Forces remained at DEFCON 3. SAC remained at DEFCON 2 until November 15.[7][8]
DEFCON 3
Yom Kippur War
On October 6, 1973, Egypt and Syria launched a joint attack on Israel resulting in the Yom Kippur War. The United States became concerned that the Soviet Union might intervene, and on October 25, US forces, including Strategic Air Command, Continental Air Defense Command, European Command and the Sixth Fleet, were placed at DEFCON 3.
According to documents declassified in 2016, the move to DEFCON 3 was motivated by CIA reports indicating that the Soviet Union had sent a ship to Egypt carrying nuclear weapons along with two other amphibious vessels.[9] Soviet troops never landed and the declassified documents did not disclose the fate of the ship and its cargo.
Over the following days, the various forces reverted to normal status with the Sixth Fleet standing down on November 17.[10]”
RFK Sr was involved in dealing with the Cuban Missile Crisis. What has his embarrassing son done?
@ 33
No. Israeli youth who were born into this being gunned down dancing at a rave? That can never be called justice.
@36 — The staged “attack”? No. Israel killed them.
Group think is the root of all evil.
Hamas is in control of this situation. The object of any terrorist action is to stimulate an over reaction, more repressive actions on the part of the “enemy”, those who would rule them, It is clearly working I heard a quote from the prime minister that he would give them something to remember for generations. He is talking as are many others of a holocaust equivalent. That will never solve anything nor bring any kind if peace only profits for the arms and security industries.
Religion is at the heart of this there is no way to deny it. at the root is a none existent god, greed and the lust for power
Wait. What? Are you saying that the 1000+ dead Israelis that were seemingly butchered by Hamas were actually killed by a false-flag operation conducted by Israel?
Citation fucking needed.
Like, I want to agree, but I don’t know if I can. If this was an effective strategy, I think I would actually condone Hamas’s actions here. The only reason I am not on-board is that I think that specific targeting of obvious Israeli civilians as opposed to Israeli soldiers, police, or politicians is going to be wildly counterproductive in terms of the international public-relations battle and especially the US internal public relations, battle, and if Hamas wants to achieve something like a reasonable final victory and freedom for Palestinians, then they need to win those international public-relations battles. Instead, they’re doing attacks of highly questionable tactical and strategic military value, and attacks that are probably counterproductive for winning allies and turning allies of Israel (e.g. the USA) against Israel.
Similarly, would I morally object to a black slave in the American south killing his slaveowner and the slaveowner’s family if it was necessary or useful in the goal of escaping? I don’t think I would condemn that action. I might even cheer it on given the correct framing. Innocence is a relative term. “All it takes for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing.” My sympathies would be more with the black slave trying to escape than the white wife of the white slaveowner.
But again, I think it’s a fucking stupid idea to kill these innocent Israeli ravers in this case because it doesn’t get you any closer to your strategic objectives, and it probably moves you farther away from then. Then again, I don’t know if playing nice would actually help any to achieve your strategic objectives, but it seemed to have worked for MLK Jr and the American civil rights movement, and it seems to have worked for ending South African Apartheid, and so I would default to the assumption that Hamas should pursue a similar strategy. Unfortunately it seems that their religion and/or culture and toxic masculinity makes them just too fucking stupid to see the bigger picture – all they care about is immediate emotional gratification by killing some Israelis, when they should be taking actions aimed to improve their situation for themselves, their families, and their people. Unfortunately, it takes very strong integrity and character to do the non-violent civil disobedience thing, and so I again give props to MLK Jr for having enough courage and strength of character to do what must have been highly embarrassing personally, e.g. letting yourself get beat up.
I guess you just lost all humanity in my (and all rational peoples’) view. Please do examine yourself and ask whether any kind of decent person would suggest such a thing.
We are trying, after many efforts to get past censors in the Canadian media, to comment on what is happening:
As for:
That seems slightly odd for a soi-disant atheist.
@42
Where does this lengthy quote originate from? Because it is a ludicrously dishonest assessment of events.
Not at all odd.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caedite_eos._Novit_enim_Dominus_qui_sunt_eius.#In_culture
.
wobbly
humphryclinker3 is quoting himself.
This is a right wingnut lie.
That $6 billion wasn’t the USA’s, it was Iran’s money, frozen in US banks.
That money wasn’t even given to Iran.
The $6 billion remains in the USA, and can only be spent with the approval of the USA on food, medicine, and other humanitarian purposes. None of it has even been spent yet.
humphryclinker3, if you have to flat out lie, you don’t have a valid statement to make.
It reads like a canned statement from the Israeli government or maybe a right wingnut group like the Heritage institute.
That may be because it isn’t true.
I’m trying to find out where that claim came from and whether it is true or not.
Probably something horrible happened but the original claim comes from one reporter without much corroboration.
Another stupid lie.
I put that quote into Google and it is all over the place as a headline news story, Yahoo news, NY Post, etc. etc.
This is truly dangerous. On the previous thread on the subject I warned about the supremacist language of animality, savagery, and barbarity. Then I had some technical issues, but when I was able to return to the news we were already swimming in it.
A small sample:
“Israeli Defense Minister Announces Siege On Gaza To Fight ‘Human Animals’” (HuffPo)
“Opinion: Hamas’s Barbaric Attack and the New World Disorder” (WSJ)
“Hamas terrorism echoes barbaric playbook from Putin to Isis, warns historian” (MSNBC)
“UK prime minister ‘unequivocal’ in solidarity with Israel amid war against Hamas: ‘Barbaric acts'” (Fox)
“LARRY KUDLOW: Hamas barbarism is beyond belief” (Fox Business)
“Iran must pay for Hamas’ barbaric attack on Israel, Lindsey Graham says” (Jerusalem Post)
“Likening Hamas ‘savages’ to IS, Netanyahu vows victory in war for ‘our existence'” (Times of Israel)
Netanyahu and the fanatics around him have already used openly genocidal colonialist rhetoric. This language and imagery, in addition to its many other harms, will only urge them on. Also, it actually works to relieve the people in Hamas who committed crimes of real responsibility for their acts.
@42
I am not against Zionism in a blanket manner. After the Dreyfus Affair and many pogroms I understand the sentiments behind Aliyah . What I am opposed to it the Revisionist strand of Zionism that led into formation of Likud. I specify that nuanced form of anti-Zionism which is NOT necessarily antisemitic.
Rereading history of 2005;Disengagement reminds me of Kadima, which was a moderation from Revisionism on Sharon’s part. As for Bibi, I must wonder if he is still harboring resentment towards Arik he’s working out against the innocent inhabitants of the West Bank.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/aug/08/israel
Hit send too soon, also this:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2004/10/31/after-gaza-win-sharon-fights-political-doubt/86d1a1ce-eaac-406e-be3e-193d33ec9c36/
Bibi could be that vindictive.
Flash forward:
https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-acting-against-international-law-says-eu-diplomat-josep-borrell/
To the extent we of the US are backing the reprisals I draw a hesitant analogy, which may yet be a flawed disanalogy for the time being, to the IDF watching over vengeful Phalangists at Sabra and Shatila. And Bibi might want to show some restraint so he’s not categorized with his nemesis The Bulldozer.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waltz_with_Bashir
My @49
Should be “innocent inhabitants of the Gaza Strip”. Hit send as my finger was trying to tap on something else. Egads!
raven, my dear, I have to bring to your attention that you say someone called ‘humphry the troll’ states that the media has been slow to publish news of dead babies and say:
but just a couple of lines later you say:
So which of those two contradictory statements in the same post do you believe? Is it not true, or is it true and reported everywhere, but rather belatedly as I suggested?
humphryclinker3@42 I doubt you’d have any trouble getting the National Post to post that statement. Assuming of course you didn’t lift it from a National Post article in the first place.
Down to trivial insults already.
I knew that was going to happen.
I’m not your dear, creepy weirdo.
I didn’t contradict myself.
You are simply lying some more and you aren’t even very good at it.
You made the claim that the media was “slow the media has been to pick up on the story of 40 babies..
It’s wrong.
One example of many. That headline is widespread.
It has yet to be corroborated and may well be exaggerated or wrong.
A reliable report has the IDF itself contradicting it.
Humphry the creepy weirdo has done nothing but lie and is now down to trivial insults.
My time is valuable and I’m not wasting any more time on a mindless hating troll.
Someone else can play with the troll but be careful.
He’s very squishy and you will get mud all over you.
He is also a coward.
By this point, the supporters of Israeli terrorists have usually threatened to kill me.
All I got was a vicious misogynistic insult.
LOL.
When people tell you what they are, believe them….
humphryclinker3
What’s your point? I think most people here agree that Hamas’s actions are horrible. I also think that most people here would agree with me that Israel’s actions in creating Apartheid conditions in Gaza are comparably evil, and this is probably where you would disagree.
For me, I don’t have to decide which I worse, and I see no reason to engage in that game. I think the USA should disengage from the entire clusterfuck and leave both sides to rot and kill each other until at least one side decides that they want a lasting peace without genocide. I also have support from at least a few of the regulars here for this proposal. I suspect you strongly disagree with this proposal.
I also leave open the possibility that maybe we should engage directly militarily to prevent any attempts at a quick genocide, and based on what I’ve seen, it would be equal odds whether we would be attacking Hamas or attacking Israel to stop that genocide.
Gerrard, my point is not complicated. Some people here seem to feel that Hamas was justified (and by the by, how does one justify decapitating a baby?)
As for “apartheid” in Israel, are you able to show any rights available to Jewish citizens of Israel that are not also possessed by Arab citizens of Israel?
And whilst I am not an American, it seems just a tiny bit heartless to say that America should
Maybe I should reinforce that question by asking what Biden was up to when he freed up the frozen assets of Iran and gave them $6Bn to play with, when they support Hamas, Hezbollah and the disgusting treatment of Iranian women who choose to not wear the hijab?
Talk about colossally missing the point. I was clearly referring to the people of Gaza and the West Bank as living under an Apartheid imposed by Israel.
Both sides want to genocide the other. Hamas wants to do it quickly, and Israel wants to do it slowly via slow ethnic cleansing and slow taking of land. Both sides are assholes that I want nothing to do with. They deserve each other. Let them kill each other.
Doesn’t look like you are getting any more humane to me. Let the killing begin – oops, continue, à la Hamas!
As for “apartheid” in the Gaza Strip, do you know that it is ruled by Hamas, and that Israel withdrew entirely from there since September 2005? You just cannot say those things and be taken seriously by anyone who knows the facts.
What else do you suggest? Starting another forever war and invading both Israel and Palestine? Because it seems like that is what it would take to solve this problem militarily, and short of that, I don’t see what the USA could actually accomplish, which is why I advocate that we just fuck off until one or both parties come to their senses and accept one of the obvious two solutions: A- a two-state solution where Israel gives back a lot of land to Palestine, or B- a one-state solution with a religiously-neutral democratic government.
You are apparently grossly ignorant of the conditions that they live under. They have lived under a blockade for most of that time, often with the bare necessities not even making it in. For example, Israel often banned import of basic construction materials because they are “dual use” to making weapons or some shit.
There’s also Israel stealing more and more land every year, which also shows that this is a lie. If you look at Israel’s settlement activity on a map, it shows a clear and purposeful design of splitting up Palestinian territory by creating new Israeli settlements. Israel has spent decades carefully ensuring that any two-state solution is impossible by dividing up Palestinian land and thereby making it impossible for there to be a real Palestinian state that can control its own borders.
So you’re saying that Tapper DIDN’T follow up with something like: “Senator, you didn’t answer my question. I wasn’t asking if Hamas should be eradicated. My question was, IS there a way to destroy – to ERADICATE – Hamas WITHOUT causing massive casualties against the innocent people of the Gaza strip, roughly a million of whom are children?”
If not, then Rubio dodged the question, and Tapper let him. Sadly typical behavior for politicians and media.
As I posted above, Gerrard, when you tell me what you are, I shall believe you. Thanks for clarifying.
Hamas’ attack was heinous, indefensible, and just plain evil. They deliberately targeted civilians, including children, and there’s absolutely no excusing that. Cutting the throats of babies is about as pure and unadulterated a wrong as it gets. Nothing justifies the attacks on children by Hamas.
However, I don’t think there’s a lot of moral superiority to be found in killing babies by dropping a payload of blockbuster bombs to level the entire neighborhood in which those babies are living, either. No, not even if there were also terrorists in the neighborhood, because deliberately murdering children is wrong. Always.
Leveling a neighborhood which you know to be filled children and non-combatants is no better than machine-gunning a crowd of children and non-combatants at a music festival. Crushing a baby under a few tons of steel and concrete is not better than cutting their throat. It makes no difference to the dead how they were murdered. One deliberate murderer of innocent civilians is not better than another, just because the latter didn’t look into the eyes of the people they murdered before they did the deed.
I’ve got no problem with the Israeli government going after Hamas. They should. It’s necessary for the safety of their people. But so far, the Israeli government hasn’t so much gone after Hamas as they’ve been indiscriminately murdering Palestinians, and that I have a problem with.
It shouldn’t be that difficult to rise above the execrable example set by Hamas, but the government of Israel can’t seem to find it within themselves to do much more than replicate the atrocities of their attackers. The mass murder of children doesn’t suddenly become moral just because someone else did it to your people first.
It’s also worth remembering that, on a purely practical note, this rampage of revenge against people who mostly had nothing to do with the attacks will not make Israel one bit safer. Not unless the government of Israel plans on murdering tens of millions of innocent people. That estimate is probably on the low side, but the point I’m making is that, unless the government of Israel wipes out everyone who might seek revenge for their campaign of indiscriminate murder, they will face a new wave attacks from some of the surviving kin of their victims.
Hamas needs to go but, for the moment, eliminating Hamas doesn’t seem to be a priority for the government of Israel.
Both your quotes. No one here wants to murder babies (unlike Hamas, it seems). So murdering babies is wrong, and on that, we agree. Now how shall Israel respond without offending you? Or are you one of those people who think Jews must accept being murdered without responding? What should Israel do in resonse? Nothing at all? Just say we’re Jews and deserve what we get?
Hamas was fully justified, and I hope they succeed this time.
“Succeed” at WHAT? What meaningful military/political objective is achieved, or can be achieved, or has ever been achieved, by indiscriminate killing of civilians? And what real gains did Palestinians ever get from any of the other times they’ve killed Israeli civilians? (Hint: it’s the same gains as the IRA got from blowing up pubs in Britain.)
If Hamas had gone for significant military targets, such as Israeli soldiers, combat vehicles, border checkpoints, or enforcement personnel, I’d agree with your statement. Likewise if they’d, say, tried to take control of the movement of water or fuel into Gaza. But indiscriminately killing civilians? All that does is make Israeli genocide look a little more justifiable.
(And no, “they’re at war” isn’t an excuse. Britain and Nazi Germany were at war once, but that didn’t make the SOE’s terrorist actions justifiable — they didn’t work. Neither did indiscriminate aerial bombing of German residential areas.)
Driving out the invaders, RB. DUH.
?
So murdering babies is wrong, and on that, we agree. Now how shall Israel respond without offending you?
Have you ever even bothered to think of, or maybe look up, possible military responses that don’t kill babies? If not, maybe you should just shut up, stop pretending you care, and spend more time listening to what more knowledgeable people are saying.
Or are you one of those people who think Jews must accept being murdered without responding?
Yeah, right, now we’re back to “criticizing Israel is antisemitism!!!” Yep, you really do need to shut up and do more reading and listening.
As for “apartheid” in the Gaza Strip, do you know that it is ruled by Hamas, and that Israel withdrew entirely from there since September 2005?
Yeah, just like the Nazis “withdrew entirely” from the Warsaw Ghetto.
I’m starting to wish Netenyayhoo would do us all a favor and send some Mossad guys to take out Israel’s stupidest and most embarrassing chickenhawk apologists.
WMDKitty: So…how many invaders did Hamas drive out?
I am not ok with the blockade of fuel, food, medicine etc.
I am ok with the upcoming ground assault, even though it will result in many innocent casualties, on one condition, which is that Israel makes immediate promises and progress towards one of the two obvious long term solutions that I identified above: A- a two-state solution where Israel gives back a lot of land to Palestine, or B- a one-state solution with a religiously-neutral democratic government.
Otherwise, Israel is simply continuing the slow roll genocide via ethnic cleansing and repeated land grabs while keeping Palestinians in apartheid conditions.
@ humphryclinker3, #66
If, and I’ll just call them “A” for simplicity’s sake, deliberately levels a neighborhood full of children with high explosives, children will die, and A will be a child murderer. That the people A wanted to kill were terrorists who might also be in that neighborhood is irrelevant. The children are still dead, and A is their murderer.
If A wishes to avoid killing babies, then they should make every effort to do just that. They don’t actually have to level entire neighborhoods. There are other options, many of which would likely be more effective if the goal is to prevent bad people from killing civilians, including babies.
The situation is this: Bad people killed a bunch of innocent civilians, including babies. In response, A is now killing innocent civilians, including babies, and maybe getting a few of those bad people in the mix.
My apologies, I phrased that poorly. My feelings are irrelevant, and what I mean by “that I have a problem with” is that I believe it’s wrong to level entire neighborhoods full of innocent people, even if there are a few bad people in them, too.
I find it a little bizarre that this is controversial statement but, again, my feelings are irrelevant. As I said in my initial statement, even if we take the morality of murdering a lot of innocent people to kill a few bad ones out of the equation, this tactic is not one that will accomplish the A’s ostensible goal of preventing further murders of innocent civilians, including babies. Unless, that is, A murders a hell of a lot more innocent civilians, including babies.
I am one of those people who thinks murdering innocent children is wrong, even if someone else murdered your innocent children first.
Israel has one of the best equipped militaries in the world, with some of the best trained soldiers. They’re particularly skilled at urban warfare. Sending in troops would entail more risks to the troops but, while it would unfortunately still result in significant civilian casualties, it would almost certainly result in fewer dead babies.
That is a worthy goal, is it not?
I am gobsmacked at the responses by some folks here, and in loads of other places, too. All that vucodlak says in comment 65 is spot on, and in my view, bloody obvious. Both sides are not just utterly wrong morally, they are wrong strategically, unless the goal is simply to prolong the hate and destruction. Nothing justifies the acts taken. Knowing the history and the constant tension might explain the actions, but it does not make them defensible. This is not hard.
…A- a two-state solution where Israel gives back a lot of land to Palestine, or B- a one-state solution with a religiously-neutral democratic government.
A: What they have now IS the “two-state solution” Israel agreed to, and it’s not working all that well for the Palestinians. The whole thing is rigged so the Palestinian “state(s)” simply aren’t allowed to do what states have to do for their people. A state that can’t even secure basic necessities for itself without the active consent of another state, isn’t really a viable state at all.
B: Didn’t Israel have almost exactly that kind of government a few decades ago? Given their current political climate, there’s no way we can expect Israel to become that kind of state again, or remain so after their Palestinian population have been fully assimilated. (And if any outside powers could enforce such a condition, we’d have got those Likud bigots out long ago.)
So I propose option C- give Gaza back to Egypt; dismantle most or all Jewish settlements in the West Bank; then give the West Bank to Jordan.
Sorry, I need to correct a sentence in my last comment to read: “A state that can’t even secure basic necessities for itself without the active consent of another state (subject to change without notice for any or no reason), isn’t really a viable state at all.
Israel has one of the best equipped militaries in the world, with some of the best trained soldiers. They’re particularly skilled at urban warfare.
They also have something called Mossad, who are really good at things like targeted assassination. Which gives them even less reason, or excuse, to engage in any sort of indiscriminate killing of civilian populations.
Knowing the history and the constant tension might explain the actions, but it does not make them defensible.
It also doesn’t do much to point the way toward a solution for the present or foreseeable future.
PS: I should clarify that I’m proposing option C above, not AFTER Israel slaughters a lot of civilians in Gaza, but INSTEAD OF such slaughter.
The Palestinians have rights, and that land belongs to them. Israel needs to return the stolen land.
Gerard @40, as loath as I am to feed the troll…
Netanyahu is batshit enough to do it, and Israel has been known to pull that sort of thing.
Raging Bee at 79: I am convinced there is no solution for the present or foreseeable future. The people with the power to bring a solution about are the ones doing the indefensible. Your idea is actually one that I can see the sense of — unlike so many others — but we all know there’s no chance it will happen. How could it, with what is actually happening right now on the ground?
(I don’t even try to pretend I have any good answers or even ideas on this terrible mess. I only hope the carnage ends sooner than I think it will.)
There’s an economy of hatred going on here. There are people on both sides who are happy to continue any ill feelings and add to them. They only really care about what their own people think but they can only attack people on the other side. So they trade in rhetoric and atrocities to get more power. Rhetoric for their own people, atrocities for the other side. And like any economy it feeds on the churn as hatred is traded back and forth.
The only thing that stops this is when enough people want it to stop more than they want to concern themselves with hating the other side or wishing for retribution. That economy of hate has to be disrupted for terrible things like the Hamas attack to stop. That back and forth has to stagnate.
The only alternative to stopping is to push further and further towards genocide. That’s it. Either you work towards peace or you work towards genocide. Don’t pretend there’s a third option. It doesn’t exist. Conflict stops because people stop fighting or it stops because the fighters are dead. So if the attacks by Hamas or what the Israeli government does to Palestinians disturbs you then don’t buy into the economy of hatred. If people keep buying into that then these things will continue. Without a constantly fueled cycle of hatred these acts are impossible.
The people with the power to bring a solution about are the ones doing the indefensible.
You may be right, but at the very least, people still need to be heard criticizing current policies and proposing new ones. The US in particular needs to start stepping back from nearly-unqualified support for Israel and resist being dragged into conflicts like this, which are detrimental to our own legitimate interests.
If we’re going to defend and uphold liberal-democratic values — which is a good thing to do, both because they’re good values and because it’s in our interests to do so — then we need to understand that cycles of provocation and retaliation, like this latest iteration in Gaza, are parts of a deliberate attack on those values, and both belligerents are using it to reinforce their own power and stifle dissent. So even if we want one side to win, we must also do what we can (which probably won’t be much) to de-escalate and break the cycle.
And since someone is bound to demand a more specific answer, how about the US work quietly with Hamas, and whoever is supporting them (Iran?), to induce them to actually start feeding their own people instead of arming them. Maybe we could use that $6B in frozen Iranian assets to buy water, building materials and other necessities and let Hamas do the necessary smuggling. And if Bibi complains, we can just say “You’re welcome!”
PS: And if Hamas, or their current sponsors/supporters/puppet-masters, refuse to cooperate with our offer, we’ll be able to trash and discredit them for refusing to actually care for the people they claim to be fighting for, and improve our own rep just a little by showing that we had an actual plan to do something significant instead of just wringing our hands.
Also, such an offer from the US would go a long way toward healing our own internal divisions — starting with our divisions over Israel vs. Palestinians. And hopefully making John Bolton’s head explode…
Raging Bee: I completely agree with all you’ve written. My own take on the broader situation is that the US has been enabling Israel, regardless of anything they do, to keep right on doing it. We do not even try anymore to curtail them, at least not in any real way, and if someone says anything critical of their actions or even their positions, the current Israeli government and its adherents instantly accuse them of antisemitism. I know this is basic ‘Duh!’ stuff, but I think it’s a huge part of why nothing even gets started, let alone done, to resolve this situation.
But you are absolutely right: we need to keep trying. This is another heart-breaking cycle of the continuing spiral of hate, and as lanir says in comment 84, the economy of hate.
That would amount to Israel outsourcing the genocide of the Palestinians to Egypt – a dictatorship as vile as Hamas, and which has joined in the blockade of Gaza; and Jordan – where the events of “Black September” took place in 1970, not a happy precedent for placing Palestinians under Jordanian rule. Besides which, there is no possibility Israel will dismantle the West Bank settlements unless as a result of a serious military defeat.
I have this alternate history in my head where Hamas took advantage of the Israeli lack of awareness and planned for serious military targets, and I get just shrug at people upset at dead military targets. Actual examples where I can say “I don’t see any problem with that, you’re whining and not at all serious about military conflict”.
I can salvage the attitude, but there are lost opportunities.
KG: First, how certain is it that Egypt — if they were to accept re-annexing Gaza in the first place, of course — would treat Gazans as badly as Israel are now treating them? Yes, they’d be ruled by a tyrannical regime, but if said regime actually let them get water, fuel and other necessities without the endless siege conditions, that would be better than their current situation.
And if that’s not an option, either because Israel won’t give Gaza up or because Egypt won’t take them, then Israel must be pressured, hard and consistently, to lift their siege and let Gazans live on sufficient amounts of all necessities. The siege was supposed to prevent weapons from getting into Gaza, and, well, it didn’t seem to have accomplished that goal, did it?
(And yes, Egypt did join the blockade of Gaza. Offhand, I’m guessing that was part of a commitment they had to make to get the Sinai Peninsula back. If Egypt were to re-annex Gaza, that obligation would be replaced by the obligation to enforce order in Gaza and forcibly prevent anyone from launching any violent actions against Israel from what would then be Egyptian soil.)
As for the West Bank, it certainly does seem that Israel is performing a slow-motion annexation there, and as you said, nothing short of serious military defeat will stop it. So if Israel won’t be stopped from colonizing the West Bank and forcing out Palestinians, then Jordan and maybe other neighboring states will have to be persuaded to take in those displaced Palestinians — and not in squalid refugee camps either, but as permanent residents of their new country(ies).
WMDKitty
So, absolutely no sources then, and you just made it up. Fucking crank.
Raging Bee
I explicitly said a two state solution where Israel gives back a bunch of land, eg dismantle illegal settlements and probably more, so that Palestinians can control their own borders. That is clearly not what is happening today, and basically never happened.
Could people in Gaza and the West Bank ever vote on Israel elections? I assume not. That’s what I mean by a one state solution. Also, Israel never adopted a law guaranteeing neutrality of religion before government, which I explicitly included in my description of the feasible one state solution.
Could you at least read what I wrote please?
Raging Bee
I take it that you don’t understand how Israel is a deeply Jewish government with extra special treatment for Jewish people. For the one state solution to be feasible, that special treatment would have to end. Israel could no longer be a Jewish government.
Yes, Gerrard, I did read and understand what you wrote, and I explained in a little detail why Israel was not allowing, and most likely would continue not allowing, either option to work satisfactorily for the Palestinian side.
Now, if we could forcefully wave option C in their faces, and impress upon them how much public support they’re losing, it’s possible they might consider going back and improving their implementation of option A. Not bloody likely, but possible. It would be worth a try anyway.
Option B, however, would simply not be enforceable, unless our CIA maybe starts giving Likud politicians the Mossad treatment.
Raging Bee
I see. Sorry.
I don’t actually know if option C is any better. As others have commented, I would want to know how the Palestinians themselves feel about getting absorbed into another country after 50 odd years.
I haven’t talked at all about enforcement. Enforcement would happen as a result of the normal civil society attitudes that preserve the secular nature of my own government, the USA. Of course that kind of attitude and desire for such a secular system is missing from both sides in Israel/Palestine, which is why the one-state solution is not currently feasible. My broader point is that no solution is currently feasible because of political positions which are passionately held and which are wildly incompatible.
I’m not really sure if option C is any better either. I propose it because, to me at least, it seems a more stable and permanent solution than the already-borked Rube Goldberg arrangement we see now, which appears to be a scam-compromise between several parties who don’t want to face reality or take responsibility.
This whole situation was created by actions that seemed necessary and appropriate at the time, as short-term solutions to real problems, but which have caused even more problems by becoming permanent because Israel doesn’t want to either go all the way (by fully annexing and assimilating the people they’ve conquered) or go back (by withdrawing from territories they can’t or don’t want to fully assimilate). (And no, I’m not denying that Israel’s enemies have also been shortsighted, half-assed, dishonest and cowardly.)
The current situation is not sustainable, and is causing instability, misery and death. It has to change, and change radically, for damn near everyone’s sake, including America’s.
Raging Bee
Your proposal is at least interesting. Thanks. Agreed.
PS: Nothing to be sorry for. :-)
Raging Bee
I was a bit of an ass, and needlessly so this time. I do apologize for that.
PS: I would include your proposal under the broader umbrella of a two-state solution. Israel would still need to dismantle a bunch of illegal settlements and give back more land so that there could be a clear land border that could be enforced.
But still, your idea has additional merit over a generic two-state solution that assumes a Palestinian state because maybe Israel would be more comfortable negotiating security guarantees with Egypt and Jordan instead of with a nascent Palestinian state. Dunno. It would be wrong to discard this idea out of hand, but I would definitely want buy-in from the Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank before enacting such a plan.