Haw haw haw

Ken Ham was asked if Muslims are going to hell. His answer:

Well, it doesn’t matter if one is a Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Catholic, Mennonite, Muslim, Methodist, Hindu, Sikh, Orthodox Jew, or any other denomination or religious group—if a person has not repented of sin and received the free gift of salvation offered through the Lord Jesus Christ (being “born again”), they will be separated from God for eternity in a place the Bible calls hell. And sadly, the majority of people will go there as Jesus warned, ‘Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many’ (Matthew 7:13).

Shorter Ken Ham: yes.


  1. Akira MacKenzie says

    Ah! My daily reminder why Christianity is fucking evil and needs to be erased from all thought and memory.

  2. robro says

    Marcus @ #2 – Not if he has good tax advice. If so, he keeps his income low to avoid taxes, while his businesses cover his expenses like homes & utilities, cars, clothes, travel, food, etc. Preachers figured that out ages ago.

  3. drsteve says

    I really enjoy the phrase “free gift” — it has the air of vapid marketing copy for a promotional deal, and neatly signifies the level of intellectual depth and moral seriousness of the whole Big Ham Project.

  4. benedic says

    Anywhere without Mr Ham would be preferable to somewhere with him. That is his Hell is my Heaven.

  5. René says

    I can proudly claim I will end up in at least two hells: I denounced catholicism at age 13, and I denounced Islam the moment I ‘married’ my Indonesian love interest.

  6. says

    Get your “free gift” now!
    Some restrictions may apply. Only valid for qualified customers. Service supplied as is. May not be copied or transferred. Offer may be rescinded at any time. No responsibility or liability accepted. Void where prohibited, except in Indiana.

  7. wzrd1 says

    I noticed long ago, no church collection plate offers a money back guarantee.

  8. birgerjohansson says

    The difference between the more malign Xian cultists and the more malign muslim cultists is, the latter rarely bother to hide the awfulness of their scriptures (see a recent debate with David Hiqaqitiou where he said child marriage and resulting consummation were OK if the girl’s parents gave their consent).

    Most Christian preachers know they have to at least pretend to look good.
    Ken Ham is saying the quiet part out loud, as he is living inside bubble of like-minded.
    “Everyone else will be tortured forever, har, har!”

  9. birgerjohansson says

    If I recall an audiobook featuring Herr Doktor Johannes Cabal correctly, he found out the dichotomy of heaven/hell was just Nyarlahotep playing good cop / bad cop. Going to heaven was not a better deal than hell.

  10. birgerjohansson says

    OK -if you really want to come to heaven, all you have to do is ask the Opener of Ways, Yog-Sototh .
    Jeshua ben Joseph is not nearly as senior.

  11. moonslicer says

    One problem I have with heaven is that I can’t recall ever meeting someone who claimed to be going there that I wanted to spend all eternity with.

  12. says

    Robro @4: Here’s to hoping it’s the same tax advisor who advised Mr Hovind.

    I sneer at Xtians who think they’ve got a chance: The Heaven Lottery has only 144,000 winning tickets… although, admittedly, that’s the second prize. First prize goes to those who get to have conversations with Twain, and can conceive of “air conditioning” for dealing with the climate.

  13. Matt G says

    The great Rev. Lovejoy (from The Simpsons) said it best: “Freedom of religion means that everyone is free to worship Jesus in their own way.”

  14. says

    I wonder what KH is referring to. I’m an atheist, but even I know that the Bible makes no mention of hell.

    Also KH’s American Evangelical idea of salvation is heretical – which doesn’t matter in the larger scheme of things, but it always irritates me when such a small group of noisy God botherers gain such a disproportionate amount of power in our country. They are truly America’s Taliban.

  15. John Morales says

    Helge, there’s this thing called Biblical exegesis.
    ‘Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many’ (Matthew 7:13)

    If they decide (they being preacher-types) that ‘destruction’ means eternal suffering, not just being destroyed (i.e. ceasing to be), then it surely is in the Babble.

    (Yes, I know they purport to be Literalists)

  16. Silentbob says

    @ 20 John Morales

    Srsly? I’m genuinely disappointed. I thought you’d be able to counter with a more Hell-esque reference than that extremely long bow. Try Matthew 25:41-46:

    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    “Everlasting punishment in fire” seems to me to fit the bill.

  17. John Morales says


    I thought you’d be able to counter with a more Hell-esque reference than that extremely long bow.

    Well, of course.

    But I chose to specifically use the quotation that PZ chose for his OP.

    (You know, work with the materials at hand)

  18. John Morales says

    Oh, sorry, Silentbob — it’s you, after all.

    My response was to “I wonder what KH is referring to”, specifically, and I thus used that quotation.

  19. rietpluim says

    It is sung that in Heaven there is no beer, so perhaps Hell is the better place. At least Hell is not run by some narcissist sociopath.

  20. rietpluim says

    By the way, why does the devil punish bad people? If he is really that evil, he should be celebrating with them.

  21. John Morales says

    rietpluim, He wishes to punish all people, but Dawg only allows him the evil people.
    Basically, it’s all He gets. His punishment.

    (Hey, I was raised Catholic!)

  22. tacitus says

    Wealthy evangelicals have long argued that it’s perfectly fine to be stinking rich just as long as you’re “right with God” which, conveniently, can mean anything they want it to mean. Solomon was incredibly wealthy after all…

  23. silvrhalide says

    @17 You beat me to the punch… over a billion saved, only 144,000 taken up in the Rapture.
    Feeling lucky?

    By the way, I’d like to point out that the idea of a burning hell in the afterlife is a Christian invention. The Jewish Gehenna is more accurately translated as a giant garbage dump/midden pit in the afterlife, about what you would expect from a culture whose idea of sanitation was midden pits. At least in the cities of the times. Nobody burns, you just get garbage dumped on you for eternity.
    So much for the Bible being the “word of God”. Sure it is… if you count the “word of God” being heavily edited in the first century of Christianity by a bunch of old dudes with an agenda and a lot of misogyny. Which is why Deborah as judge (and her perhaps not-entirely platonic relationship with Jael and possibly Barak, which would make them a throuple) and tribal ruler and Susannah and the elders are only ever in the Apocrypha and never in the main feature.

  24. rietpluim says

    @John Morales #27 Calvinists would disagree. They believe everyone deserves punishment.

  25. benedic says

    silvrhalide 27
    I think what we may deduce from the facts you cite is,the God of all three mystifications is a master roaster.
    Whether this implies cooking powers as essential to the position remains to be established.

  26. outis says

    Like #8 Benedict says, any place with Ken Ham & Co in it will be hell, no matter what it is.
    What these fine minds fail to appreciate is how damn attractive a place without sadistic gods and carping priests is going to appear. One could well put up with the fires and demonds, as long as there are no gods and their botherers stinking up the place.
    A classic case is Dante’s divine comedy: the description of hell is justly famous and widely quoted, while purgatory is literally that and paradise is 100% insufferable. Just about every student pines for hell while reading paradise, which is one of the finest examples of failure of purpose ever seen in literature.

  27. untheist says

    I learned about the Jesus requirement for salvation as a 9- or 10-year-old in catechism class. I asked the teacher if a child born in China, who lives a good life but never hears about Jesus, would go to Hell. It was clear the question had never occurred to her, and she said she would have to go ask the priest. Later she brought the priest in, who assured me that the Chinese person would go to heaven.

    This was one of the incidents in my life that led me toward atheism. I found it ludicrous that hearing a god’s name would make you obligated to worship that god under threat of eternal punishment.

  28. says

    Mark Twain’s Extract From Capt. Stormfield’s Trip To Heaven touches on these issues and, as usual for Twain, illuminates the underlying absurdities of dogma. Imagine a vast number of spirits, who don’t know how to play harp, all jamming away at once?

  29. birgerjohansson says

    The guy who wrote the apocalypse (not one of the apostles) went all in 8n sadism.
    The gospels mention punishments in the afterlife more sparingly. Also, we don’t know how much was altered after the gospels were written down. It seems to me like a lot of influence from zoroastrian and/or Greek sources.

  30. birgerjohansson says

    The guy who wrote the apocalypse (not one of the apostles) went all in on sadism.
    The gospels mention punishments in the afterlife more sparingly. Also, we don’t know how much was altered after the gospels were written down. It seems to me like a lot of influence from zoroastrian and/or Greek sources.

  31. birgerjohansson says

    Having Parkinson’s disease correlates with having Desulfolibrio bacteria. This just might be the beginning of understanding enough to stop the disease in its tracks.

  32. raven says

    By the way, why does the devil punish bad people? If he is really that evil, he should be celebrating with them.

    He doesn’t.
    Satan doesn’t rule in hell. He isn’t even in hell right now.

    Most of what xians believe isn’t in the bible. It’s just stuff they’ve made up over the centuries.

    10 Things Everyone Gets Wrong About Satan

    Satan Is Not Destined To Rule In Hell

    Call him the Prince of Hell or the Prince of Darkness, and the job is clear. When it comes to the place where Satan’s going to spend eternity, it’s clearly Hell . . . right? According to Paul in Hebrews 2:14, Christ will “destroy” Satan. That doesn’t mean killing him though—the word used is “katargeo,” which means defeating or putting someone away.

    Hell isn’t the domain of Satan. It’s his prison, where the Bible says he’ll be tortured just like all the others who have turned away from God.Revelation 20:10 also supports this interpretation. According to this verse, Satan’s destiny has already been decided, and it’s being cast into Hell’s lake of fire. This blurs into another misconception about Satan’s role in Hell; according to popular belief, it’s Satan that barters for souls and banishes them to Hell for eternal punishment. In this same part of Revelation (and in Matthew 25:46), it’s also said that because of the bestowing of free will on mankind, it’s not Satan that’s stealing souls and turning them evil; evil is a choice made by each person. It’s also said that God will punish all those who turn to evil in the same way—including Satan himself.


    Satan Doesn’t Live In Hell . . . He Lives In Turkey

    One of the most universally accepted facts about Satan—that he rules over all the demons in Hell—is also one of the most incorrect. According to the Bible, Satan doesn’t rule in Hell and doesn’t live there, either. He lives on Earth, walking among us and tempting us to commit sins and turn to his side.The Book of Revelation goes a step farther and names the ancient Turkish city of Pergamum as the “Throne of Satan.” Specifically, it’s thought that it was a literal throne, with the temple once known as the Great Altar of Zeus repurposed as the Devil’s throne.

    The prophet John says: “To the angel of the church in Pergamum write: I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to my name, and did not deny my faith even in the days in which Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.” In the context of the time, a throne is much more than just a chair—it’s a home.John’s words to the people of Pergamum are an expression of gratitude for their faith while one of their own suffered one of the many horrible deaths inflicted upon the martyrs. Pergamum was home to the Asklepion, one of the most successful hospitals of the day, built in honor of the healing god Asklepios. Those who were ill would take a sleeping potion and spend the night surrounded by snakes said to bring them dreams from Asklepios. Once the dreams were interpreted by their doctors, they could be cured. Once Christianity came to the city, the priests that were doing the interpreting pleaded with the city officials to run the Christians out of town—they were interfering with their spirits and the presence of their gods. One of the most vocal, a man named Antipas, was instructed to forsake his Christian ways and swear allegiance to Rome. He refused and was burned alive in the brass bull on the top of the Altar of Zeus.

    But that’s absolutely not the end of the story. In the mid-19th century, a German engineer named Carl Humann visited the ruined city. He petitioned the respective governments to excavate the city and remove and take what artifacts he could back to Germany. The Pergamon Museum opened in 1930. Its center attraction was the reassembled Great Altar of Zeus. Several years later, Albert Speer would look to the altar for inspiration to create an eerie parallel. Adolf Hitler wanted him to design parade grounds, and Speer took the altar and recreated it on a massive scale. He replaced the bronze bull in which Antipas had been martyred with Hitler’s podium, where he would stand to announce the Nuremberg Laws.

    Satan used to live in Turkey, in Pergamon. His throne is now in Berlin.

    These days, satan lives in Los Angeles and used to have a TV show.

  33. grandolddeity says

    I have my doubts that the righteous, omniscient Abrahamic God has bought into the whole Christian carve-out thing. I’m pretty certain we’re all going to fry according to the original dogma.

  34. silvrhalide says

    These days, satan lives in Los Angeles and used to have a TV show.

    Shown on Fox Network, no less. And predictably, their rightwing Christian nitwits had hysterics over the very idea and forced Fox to cancel or at least not renew a critically and commercially successful show.

    Still, the show isn’t nearly as good as the original comic.

  35. silvrhalide says

    @40 According to the original dogma, ie. the Jewish Torah & associated writings (Talmud), the names of the unrighteous will be removed from the book of names, rendering the removed as nonpersons, fit only to be thrown out on the trash heap (midden, ie., Gehenna) thereby denying the nameless the succor of the presence of The Throne. Yada yada. The Christians weren’t even Christians for the first hundred years or so of existence; they were just one more freaky little Jewish splinter cult, one among many, as far as the Romans were concerned. The whole burning damnation and lake of fire thing didn’t come until centuries later and was largely a European Christian invention.

  36. wzrd1 says

    @38, the evidence still is a bit weak on the association between the bacteria and Parkinsonism. Still, it’d not be highly surprising, as some autoimmune conditions are associated with other bacterial infections. Apparently, some antibodies are selected that can cross-react with receptors on our own cells, resulting in the immune system attacking those cells/tissues.

  37. brightmoon says

    I’m Christian and I don’t even believe that good decent people go to hell. I read Swift’s Gulliver’s Travels as a child and I got the point about the sheer petty stupidity of sectarian religious arguments and wars by satirizing them as a fight over which end of the egg to open first ,the big end or the little end. Swift was a clergyman.

  38. brightmoon says

    @grandolddeity , Curtis Mayfield’s old song “If There’s Hell Below We’re All Gonna Go”

  39. wzrd1 says

    In life, there are only two things to worry about—
    Either you are well or you are sick.
    If you are well, there is nothing to worry about,
    But if you are sick, there are only two things to worry about—
    Either you will get well or you will die.
    If you get well, there is nothing to worry about,
    But if you die, there are only two things to worry about—
    Either you will go to heaven or hell.
    If you go to heaven, there is nothing to worry about.
    And if you go to hell, you’ll be so busy shaking hands with all your friends
    You won’t have time to worry!

    ~Author lost to time

  40. birgerjohansson says

    Wzrd1 @ 43
    Yes, I just wanted to insert a little good news.
    When it comes to Parkinsons, Alzheimers, ALS etc there have been little progress for decades but science finally seems to go somewhere.
    -As for understanding how religions evolve , going from there to “curing” the most malign eccesses is much harder than producing medicines.

  41. birgerjohansson says

    OT again
    -I am looking forward to PZ’s review of the coronation, which I am certain consumed all his attention on Saturday (sark).

  42. erik333 says

    It hardly seems like a surprising stance, nonbelievers going to hell? Thats the default for both christianity and islam afaik, making both very dangerous as any atrocity in the real world is trivial in comparison to eternal damnation.

  43. birgerjohansson says

    By contrast, when The Sandman got pissed off at The Corinthian (a runaway nightmare that started a career as a serial killer) he simply uncreated him and made a new one.

    Then again, The Sandman and his siblings were not technically gods.

  44. birgerjohansson says

    In the original OT tale the satan (lower-case s, it was a position rather than a name) did merely destruct-test Job with the approval of El/Jahwe.
    A nasty customer but not an adversary of El.
    Later, things changed. And so did apparently the concept of sheol.

  45. rietpluim says

    What Ham actually says, is that Heaven is open to people of all religions as long as they are born-again Christians.

  46. wzrd1 says

    birgerjohansson @47, I suspect we’ll eventually find more evidence supporting leaking of the BBB allowing antibodies that shouldn’t enter into immune privileged areas and immune response then causing a number of serious diseases, especially diseases of the CNS. Just as the BCG vaccine has been shown to be protective against type I diabetes. I’d be unsurprised to see the antibodies responsible for that form of diabetes originating from an immune response to a related type of bacteria to TB, but not known to be pathogenic. The immune system ususally selects the “right” antibody to not cause additional problems, but usually isn’t always.

    Rietpluim @52, for now, later, should his sect predominate, then only his sect is admitted and all who aren’t are to be converted by force. History has shown that nonsense to be true repeatedly.
    Because Jesus taught conversion by the sword or something, hand wave…

  47. robro says

    I’m no expert on all the forms of Christianity, but I’m not sure they all require Ham’s particular form of confession. So shop around, find one that suits your fancy and rest easy…you’ll go to heaven.

    Also, it’s arguable that Islam is a form of or derived from Christianity as it existed in the the 7th/8th centuries in the Middle East. The Umayyad Caliphate may have been dominated by or strongly influenced by the forms of Christianity in the region.

  48. erik333 says

    @53 wizard
    Worse, believing as Ken Ham does – it morally evil not to convert people by force, if you believe that is possible.

  49. brightmoon says

    OT Dolt45 found guilty gets a 5Million judgement. I was wishing for jail but a guilty verdict here is acceptable

  50. brightmoon says

    Just thought the title was appropriate for this off topic #56 . He’s been abusing women for decades