In the Washington Post: Coronavirus autopsies: A story of 38 brains, 87 lungs and 42 hearts, just the thing to read if you want to know how COVID-19 will kill you. To summarize it unjustly, it’s thousands of microclots in your lungs. But that’s not all! There are cardiac, brain, and kidney effects as well, only those don’t seem to be direct actions of the virus. Instead, it’s more tiny vascular damages, like hundreds of microstrokes in the brain. Good to know, when you’re lying there comatose with a respirator down your throat, that you’re being nibbled to death by lots of tiny clots destroying your organs.
Yet people now are not even taking minimal precautions, claiming a mask infringes on their liberties, as if a virus ripping up delicate membranes in their body doesn’t.
Hey, who all is gettin’ together with their buds for beer and loud music and fireworks this weekend? It may be your last chance before your lungs are perforated and your brain gets swiss-cheesed, so enjoy yourselves!
The paragraphs mentioning Dengue Fever stick out. Taiwan has outbreaks every year (100 in 2019) and a two massive outbreaks in 2014 (15,000) and 2015 (43,000). It’s also rampant and annual in China. If the effects are similar, are the diseases?
I’m fairly certain I caught this back in March. I had a couple hypoxic-like events and was relying on a rescue inhaler 5 or 6 times a day for an entire month. I cannot even walk briskly, not power-walk just a bit faster than an amble, for more than a couple hundred feet without gasping for air now.
I saw that story yesterday. Sobering, particularly given that I’m in the highly vulnerable cohort with age, cardiac issues, and probably upper respiratory damage against me. What a way to go. I read another piece recently about what it’s like if they decide to intubate. Ugh. My partner is of the “let me check out” mind set if it comes to that, and after reading that article, I can’t argue with the sentiment.
Strangely enough, I didn’t find this article all that depressing. If thrombosis is a primary mechanism of action of SARS-CoV2 instead of just a part of DIC that suggests a potential treatment. We’ve got lots of anticoagulants already on the market. Some are even already under study for reducing mortality and morbidity. Maybe the second wave will be truly less deadly than the first, not just apparently less deadly due to messing with the way the deaths are counted and lying on death certificates.
Beer? Absolutely. Music? Maybe, but at low volume. Fireworks? Whatever is visible from my home, and if I’m in the mood. I’m rather attached to my lungs after 50+ years. I’m fond of my other organs as well. And my capillaries especially have a special place in my heart.
I’m fortunate that I can work from home; and I’ve always been something of a loner, so I have no problem with not even leaving my apartment except for quick runs to the grocery store a couple of time per week; so I have a low risk of catching the disease. But I have a high risk of the disease being severe if I do catch it, so, yeah, that’s scary.
<aside>
I always have to laugh whenever right wingers claim that wearing a mask is some kind of liberal statement. “It’s [projection] all the way down.”
</aside>
It’s not just microclots in various organs.
The Covid-19 virus activates the blood clotting system in general and some of the clots are macro-clots.
Patients are getting strokes, heart attacks, pulmonary embolisms, and losing arms and legs depending on where the clots end up.
Some of which are fatal.
In my local area, most people who die from Covid-19 virus, are dying at home.
One reason why, is they are dying suddenly and never make it to the hospital.
A good estimate is that 16% of patients show long term disability from Covid-19 infection.
The more we know about this virus, the more dangerous it looks.
“In the Washington Post: ”
Only now? Dutch newspapers had this about two months ago, if not more.
@1 Intransitive: “If the effects are similar, are the diseases?”
The effects aren’t. I know, because I’ve had dengue twice. It exists in Suriname and other South-American countries too. Dengue’s effects are very similar to those of a severe flu, with a bonus of joints pains, especially in the knuckles. That’s why the Dutch name translates as knuckle fever.
As for the diseases, well, they both are caused by viruses. But that’s about all. Dengue needs the tiger mosquito as a vector. COVID-19 doesn’t..
In a recent survey, only 36% of the excess deaths in Texas in the first six weeks of the pandemic were assigned to Covid-19. Texas only reports the mortality figures for certified Covid-19 deaths, and it looks like many of the deaths that manifested as strokes, heart attacks and other issues were missed, perhaps even playing into the dangerous narrative that it was time to open up (not that they were looking for other excuses).
I always knew I hated the orange moron but it never ceases to amaze me how different he is. Not merely evil vs good or smart vs stupid but perplexingly different. My first shock was when I realized in 2015 that most people like and admire bullies.
Now, it’s this stupid 4th of July fireworks at Mt. Rushmore. The very minor argument that fireworks had been banned there for 10 years for wildfire damage made me wonder WHY? Why not anywhere else? And “mask and socially distancing will not be required” (it’s not discouraged nudge-nudge-wink-wink) makes me wonder what the fuck is the point and…. then I get it… what he thinks is important is people telling people to think about reality are a personal attack and he won’t take it– he’ll do bad and dangerous thinks just to rub it in the face of those who tell him to consider reality.
Alien. Insane deluded moronic alien….
Oh, make no mistake, they’ll wear a mask to protect themselves. They just won’t wear a mask to protect you. THAT would be infringing on their liberty. Doing the bare fucking minimum to show concern or to make the most insignificant sacrifice for the benefit of the larger society, that’s the right-wing and libertarian definition of tyranny.
“Oh, make no mistake, they’ll wear a mask to protect themselves.”
Except they won’t. They are that deluded
Young people are throwing coronavirus parties with a payout when one gets infected, official says
Anyone want to bet that in late October, Trump will say “My perfect response to COVID kept the death toll under 300,000”?
@ Susan Montgomery — You have the man pegged perfectly.
@15 That’s Ghislaine Maxwell’s job.
@14: My prediction/guess is that a vaccine will become available in October. Unfortunately, I have no idea whether it will be safe or effective. But Trump will make sure it gets approved by any means necessary in order to save his position. Or, if that’s not even remotely plausible, he’ll declare a state of emergency and shut the election down as too dangerous.”
@16 You win the internet for today.
@#8, mnb0:
I’ve noticed for a few months now that US media keeps reporting “new” things about coronavirus which are months old. China confirmed that there were at least 2 variants of the virus quite early — I vaguely recall seeing that this was first announced around the end of January, but right now the earliest announcement I can find is from March 4 — and I saw people announcing this as news in the middle of May.
@17 The fake vaccine scenario. I don’t think even Trump has the balls to try that. Even if we had something functional right now, it would take months to manufacturer sufficient quantities to make a difference in November. The best he could do by October is some sort of garbage placebo and he already played that card. (chloroqine anyone)
He’s also not canceling the election. If the election is canceled, his term still expires in January. Same with Pence. That would make Nancy Pelosi President automatically. That’s the chain of succession.
His only hope is that it does “go away like magic”, at this point. The boat has sailed and he missed it. He missed it a month ago when he declared victory over “flattening the curve”. It wasn’t victory, it was a slim chance to use testing and tracking to prevent exactly what’s happening now. A more massive second wave.
Doesn’t help he politicized masks. Now we have a bunch of human/lemming hybrids running around thinking it’s all fake. I didn’t think Trump’s presidency could get crazier but then it did.
@#20, Ray Ceeya:
Not only is Trump capable of announcing a fake vaccine, but Republicans who are currently considering voting Democratic/staying home are entirely capable of changing their minds and supporting Trump on the strength of such an implausible announcement. These are the people who still seriously think QAnon is The Truth, after all. It’s like the people who think a rapist who backed segregation, trickle-down economics, and overfunding the police is going to reverse Trump’s policies — once you’ve decided that history can be ignored, any claim is plausible.
@21
I refuse to believe that things are so bad the QAnon represents any significant portion of Trump’s base. They’re like the Juggalos of the RNC. They’re very loud, very stupid and very clownish and nobody takes them seriously. The majority are the “usual” 2nd amendment racist Fox News junkies and anti-woman, pro-segregation, regressive assholes that have been the Republican base for my entire life and then some. Boomer Republicans are like an undead monster that just won’t die.
while we are it seems living through the pre-apocolyps I have little confidence that we will advert much of the other disasters waiting in the wings. Agent orange is batting 1000 so far, his lies to the public have and sorry to say are still causing damage. It was clear from the beginning that this little virus was very serious trouble and was capable really kicking our ass everyway at once.
You know from what I have heard from those republicans who will not be voting for agent orange nary a one has been from the lunatic fringe, the rabid racists clan wing or the gun fondling fascist contingent. His hard core is not deserting the sinking ship it is what they desire most to destroy the existing order.
I think that the news about the US forces bounty paid by the Putin’s Russia has gone some way to finally alienate what ever loyalist he may have had in the military, they do not like being sold out very much.
uncle frogy
@ Susan Montgomery, # 16: Good one!
@ Rowan vet-tech, # 2: I’ve been having the exact same thing, after recovering from COVID almost two months ago-extreme shortness of breath and persistent coughing. They put me on a five day course of antibiotics and Prednisone-I’m on day 4 now, there’s been a big improvement. Might work for you-have you checked with a doctor?
18 & 24 Thanks!
If I am getting together with friends, it’ll be with a small group of fellow social distancing, stay at homers :)
Otherwise I’ll be wearing this:
https://www.cyberoptix.com/collections/mask-lab/products/face-hugger-mask-aliens-inspired-fabric-face-cover-xenomorph-facehugger-face-mask?variant=32179786809441
Or this:
https://www.cyberoptix.com/collections/mask-lab/products/pinhead-mask-hellraiser-inspired-cloth-face-cover-cenobite-mask?variant=32330642128993
Or this:
https://www.cyberoptix.com/collections/mask-lab/products/the-shining-inspired-mask-overlook-hotel-carpetfabric-face-cover?variant=32179923452001
I have a few others but they are still on their way
First it was “No shoes no shirt no service”. Now it’s masks! The continued creeping oppression of the retail sector, who are infringing on our constitutional rights WILL NOT BE TOLErated…!
*passes out on fainting couch from lack of freedom.
This is like asking a Jewish person to wear a yellow star I tells ya.
@22 I would not compare juggalos to qanon. Juggalos and ICP continue to prove themselves to be much better people more capable of personal growth than the idiots in qanon…
@28
https://images.app.goo.gl/tEeYnP7qGLy1qgXu6
:D
@#22, Ray Ceeya:
I just remember 2016: the polls showed that there was enough Republican disillusionment with Trump and resignation to Clinton that Clinton was way ahead, and all it took was one good whack at Hillary Clinton’s major weakness — the fact that a majority of Americans, at every single point in time and across both parties, regarded her as untrustworthy, according to every poll taken which included the subject — to bring all the Republicans back into line. I personally believe that Democrats have become just as bad, and disagree with the relative merit of the modern party, but there’s no possible to avoid the conclusion that Republicans have a tremendous will to believe their leadership and march in lockstep, and they will swallow any lie and forgive any sin as long as it keeps their party in power. Any poll result which shows a Democratic lead solely because of Republican demoralization should be viewed with intense suspicious — a real Democratic lead would be the party and/or current events energizing the base rather than relying on Republicans to become equally disgusted.
@30
*Copy
*Print
*Laminate
Thanks, now I can take the lawn tractor down to get a six-pack without being harassed by the man. I’m bonafide.
@31 Yeah that’s what I’m worried about. I’m not a Democrat, I never will be. Back in the 80s BOTH parties waged war on the working class. It wasn’t any better in the 90s or the 00s. I allied with the democrats in the 2000s because of GWB and I’m with them now because of DJT. This is temporary for me. I won’t be happy until the Democrats are the “conservative” party. That said, Trump is (fingers crossed) hopelessly under water. Watching him twist and turn and slither makes me smile. I hate that it’s taking actual lives to expose his failure, but apparently that’s what it takes now. I have no love for Biden, but we need a way out of this mess.
There is one way out to save this country from turmoil, and chaos. DJT needs to resign. His resignation would save lives. We’ve already seen more deaths than every war since WWII. Continuation of his presidency will only add to the body count.
@31
while being a flawed candidate whom the repuplican party had been vilifying over 20 years HRC still won the majority of the popular vote. and if it was not for the structural nature of our presidential elections would have been declared the winner.
uncle frogy
@#34, unclefrogy:
As many people have pointed out since then: the Electoral College was not a surprise trick pulled on the Democrats at the last minute by the Republicans, but the ground rules available to anybody interested in running for office for over 200 years. Hillary Clinton definitely should have known that a popular vote win could still be an overall loss, because it’s how Al Gore lost in 2000 (he got a bare majority of the popular vote, if you go and check) and her tactic of running a campaign which ignored the realities of the EC to run up totals in California and try to win states where she never had a chance (Arizona) was both unforgivably entitled and unforgivably stupid. Even if it were possible to go back and redo the election, her campaigning choices (such as her decision to pull out of her only in-person appearance post-convention in Wisconsin, where she had lost the primary in the first place) made it clear she was no smarter than Trump, which is saying a lot.
(And it is clear from her comments in interviews since 2016 that she would have spent the first year of her term trying as hard as possible to escalate Syria into a hot war with Russia, and her history of failing to understand the limits of US military power suggests she would screw it up through overreach. Would World War III be less deadly than Trump’s coronavirus mismanagement? I doubt it. Awful as Trump has been, I still think we unknowingly and unprovably dodged a bullet.)
(And wow, rereading my post at #31, typos typos typos! “No possible way to avoid” and “intense suspicion”.)
Billseymour at #6 … is that you ? As in Sydney ?
… Graham.
Unsurprisingly, what The Vicar@31 “remembers” is not quite what was actually the case in 2016. Clinton was not “way ahead” at this point, or any other, apart from two short periods in October, roughly 10th-16th and 20th-24th. Somewhat to my surprise, the polling dates and results suggest that her lead had already declined markedly before Comey’s intervention on 28th. Around late June-early July 2016, polls were all over the place, most showing small to moderate leads for Clinton, a few larger leads for her or small leads for Trump. This year, the last poll to show a (1%) Trump lead was taken June 3rd-5th, most are showing moderate to clear leads for Biden. That said, for once I agree with him in that the election is far from being in the bag for Biden: he’s a weak candidate, unlikely to bring out the youth vote, and whose main assets are not being Donald Trump, and not being likely to scare off “moderates”.
It’s worth noting that only half of Americans say they would definitely take a vaccine, and reluctance to do so is stronger among Republicans than Democrats. Reluctance is often linked to concern about the process of producing one being rushed. So announcing one in October might not be that advantageous to Trump, especially as it would increase the salience of Covid-19, assuming that it has fallen by then.
So you’ve abandoned the absurdly implausible line that Biden or Clinton wouldn’t have handled the pandemic any better than Trump, for pointless speculation about Clinton bringing about World War III if she’d been elected. Of course, we don’t know that Trump won’t bring about World War III. He still has a good six months to do so, even if he leaves office in January.
@35
Dude, Vicar, calm down. In that third paragraph you sound a bit crazy. No offense seriously. The HRC -> Russia -> WWIII escalation thing is a popular right wing fantasy. There are dozens of crappy novels written about this. I think one was called “Triggered” even.
There is no reason to think HRC would have started WWIII. As someone who grew up in the Cold War, nobody wants WWIII. Not even Putin. I honestly have no idea where you get that idea. The Syrian crisis and another hot war in the Middle East? No freaking way. Unless I’m missing something Trump had way more invested in that the the Clintons.
I’m sorry, but unless you got more than that, HRC=WWIII is just right wing garbage.
Hence, no surprise at all from The Vicar. He has said outright that he wants Trump to win in November, just as he wanted him to win in 2016. The “rationale” this time is that Biden might delay the “inevitable” collapse of the USA into chaos (which would of course be quite likely to trigger World War III) and so let the (predominantly elderly) other people who wanted Trump to win in 2016 (and so voted for him) escape the sufering they deserve. I don’t presume to know what goes on in The Vicar’s mind, but he’s “objectively pro-fascist”, as the Marxists used to say.
@40 first time i think I’ve engaged with him on this forum, not the first time I’ve engaged with his type. I can smell a reich winger pretty quick, but this is PZ’s place so I try to be more polite than I normally would elsewhere. Most places I would have called him out as a boogaloo boi wannabe.
@KG #37
Watch them flip on a dime when the Führer bats his eye lids.
I definitely think we should take polls with a handful of salt. They may be disappointed with Trump right now, but they’re also furiously trying to avoid admitting they were wrong to support him to begin with. The moment he can give them a tiny fig leaf to hide behind, they’ll be right back in his camp. And that’s before we talk voter suppression and outright fraud.
These aren’t sensible, decent people. If they were, we wouldn’t be in this mess. Expect anything and everything.
KG @40: Wait, I”m confused. Vicar is saying both that HRC would have caused WWIII and he wants Trump to win because he’ll trigger WWIII more quickly? I admit I tend to tune Vicar out when he (I think Vicar’s pronoun is “he”) starts talking about politics, so maybe I’m misrepresenting his position, but that doesn’t seem internally consistent.
Slightly less depressing article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/more-covid-19-patients-are-surviving-ventilators-in-the-icu/2020/07/03/2e3c3534-bbca-11ea-8cf5-9c1b8d7f84c6_story.html
The speculated “October surprise” announcement from hair furor about a Covid-19 vaccine isn’t so much about a “fake vaccine” — which I define as either something which is not a vaccine (and doesn’t work), or a failed vaccine candidate (i.e., a vaccine that doesn’t work or is too dangerous). The speculated “October surprise” seems to be either a premature announcement (e.g., a genuine vaccine candidate which shows promise but still needs to complete its testing regime), or about something he “hopes” will be available soon (e.g., something he’s heard on oann / rt / fox). Admittedly, that second scenario overlaps with a “fake vaccine” (and those two scenarios themselves overlap).
Whatever is the “vaccine October surprise” — even a genuine announcement of a genuine / approved vaccine — he’ll take full credit, insult everybody (including the vaccine developers / manufacturers), and blame the in getting a vaccine on teh dummes (Democrats), BLM, WHO, Big China, and Benghazi! He’ll also try t ensure it (genuine or not) is sent first to the States where the predicted election results are still close, and insist one of Jared Kushner’s
companiesscams has exclusive rights, etc., etc., etc.graham2 @36
Almost certainly not. I’m a computer programmer currently residing in St. Louis, MO, USA.
If the Sydney you refer to is the city in Australia, then no again. I’ve never been there and won’t fly in an airplane long enough to get there.
I am a Tim Minchin fan, and I’ve lately become a fan of the Seekers from the ’60s. 8-)
@45
that is completely consistent with the history so far.
uncle frogy
@45
I can already see it. He’s going to stand on stage with a tiny vial in his tiny hand and say…
“Now what I have here… Is the cure for this terrible disease… That has done tremendous damage… To our great country…”
Has some nice symmetry with the time Colin Powell flashed a vial of “Anthrax” to the UN assembly.
They’re still using the same playbook they’ve used since Reagan.
So, as we approach November we can anticipate the sublime joy of listening to anti-vaxxers telling us that we need to vote for Drumpf because he brought us the COVID-19 vaccine, which they will refuse to take.
I am so fed up with many of my fellow Murkans.
@22 Ray Ceeya
Brings this to mind. Qanon goes to Washington. As of right now, I count nine of them that are going on to their respective elections in November. The list is continually updated though.
Lauren Boebert Colorado.
Mike Cargile, Erin Cruz, Alison Hayden, Buzz Patterson from California.
Johnny Teague from Texas.
Ron Weber Ohio.
Jo Rae Perkins Oregon.
Angela Stanton-King from Georgia.
They represent, rough calculation, over half a million votes. To what extent does each candidate overlap in the “Trump base” and “Qanon” venn diagram? I don’t have the stamina to parse everything out on here. Take it or leave it.
@#38, KG:
Clinton would probably have handled coronavirus better than Trump, but since a Clinton win in 2016 would probably have cemented a Republican majority in both houses of Congress in 2018 and a Republican majorities in state governments as well, Clinton would have been rendered irrelevant by a mass Republican refusal to follow any rules handed down by her government.
As for Trump causing World War III — that may indeed yet happen, but until it does it’s every bit as speculative as any Clinton scenario.
@#39, Ray Ceeya:
You apparently didn’t listen to what Hillary Clinton herself was telling the press during 2017. She started off by saying she would have been bombing much more often and much harder than Trump, then she went into how she would have declared a no-fly zone (and, IIRC, her initial statement of where it would be located actually would have extended that zone into Russia although I’m willing to accept that as a misstatement since she never repeated that but repeated the rest), talked about the need to put more pressure on Assad’s allies, etc. etc. etc. She wouldn’t want WWIII, but she had the same hubris that Petraus did — “I’m way smarter than the people I’m replacing, so if I do the exact same stuff they were doing, even if everybody who has ever tried it has failed, I will make it work.” If you bother to go and look up her stances on previous US military interventions, and her ideas about tactics, it’s incredibly easy to imagine her going to far and setting off a hot war without meaning to. Her supporters were (and, apparently, are) unwilling to admit that she’s a dim bulb of approximately the same order as Trump, just with different failings — and that we already knew from how she ran her campaign.
@#40, KG:
I didn’t support Trump in 2016. At the time of Hillary Clinton’s loss, if you go and look it up, I said: the silver lining on the dark cloud of Trump winning is that Hillary Clinton lost and will (I still hope) never run for office again. Since I hated both candidates, there was going to be a silver lining either way, and the cloud was going to be being stuck with the other one. I remain unconvinced that we really ended up with the short end of the stick.
I don’t support either Trump or Biden now, either — Trump will cause the collapse of the US, Biden will too; Biden will just make it happen a little more slowly. (He and his campaign have already announced that they’re going to continue a bunch of Trump’s policies.) Since the collapse is going to be more painful the later it happens, Biden is worse in the long term — and putting it off is going to let a lot of the people who caused the problem escape any consequences for it. The only really acceptable outcome of this election would be a third-party win by somebody who actually is interested in stopping the collapse, but people like you are going to stick with Biden so we’re probably going to be screwed regardless, and that’s going to be your fault. I’m fully expecting Biden, should he win, to do something like keep Barr on as Attorney General in order to show “bipartisanship” and how well he gets along with Republicans, and since I, unlike you, remember Obama, I know that the Democratic Party will pull an about-face and praise him for doing so. I am increasingly infuriated by Biden bootlickers like you to the point where I will be laughing at you if he loses, though.
@#43, dianne:
Nope. It’s not WWIII I’m hoping will happen sooner rather than later, but the collapse of the US as a single entity. It’s coming, whether we want it to or not, and the later it happens the more unpleasant it’s going to be when it does. (And, of course, since the US is the world’s largest and worst holdout on doing anything about climate change, and will continue to be so if Biden wins, if the US lasts until 2030 then the UN’s projected window of time in which we can prevent the worst from happening will close and we will mostly or all die. Why not collapse now and get it over with, and maybe not have a near or possibly complete extinction of humanity?)
It took me a bit to read through the Lancet link in that article PZ posted. I’m slow on the uptake these days. It reminded me of another Lancet publication I read back in May. Lets see if I can find it. Okay HERE it is.
Being up front here. I’m not a doctor, not even a biologist. Like I said I’m slow on the uptake too. But am I completely off the mark when I ask, is SARS-CoV-2 virus infecting endothelial cells, is this a vasculotropic virus that is somehow jumping from lung tissue to vascular cells? None of the Lancet publications actually put that out there in so many words.
Wouldn’t that explain the myriad of symptoms as endothelial cells influence clotting and immune responses. Again I’m teetering on my ability to delve into this. So if that’s not possible then I wouldn’t mind anyone simply giving a simple yes or no answer there.
So, this is very very very oversimplified. But if the virus is entering through ACE2 receptors in the nose and throat, then when it’s in the alveoli and the tissue is destroyed, breaking open blood vessels it can then infect endothelial cells? Or summat? Which is something a lot of viruses can’t do if that’s correct.
Actually don’t even answer all this. I don’t have any confidence I can suss this out. But I’m going to hit post because maybe it will bring this conversation back to something a little more useful.
@53, no, but microclots would form when the alveoli break down from both the infection destroying 1/3 of the cells that constitute them, as well as kidney tissues and one region of the brain that is rife with ACE2 receptors.
Current treatment protocol is initiate anticoagulant therapy, dexamethasone monitor and assess and address symptoms as they progress. ECMO is now favored over ventilators, as the vents are causing more damage to already damaged lung tissue. The steroid tends to cause elevated glucose, so insulin is in use to limit damage from the elevated glucose.
Basically, I’ve taken to calling it the “now what virus”, because the progression lacks rhyme or reason, attacking various tissues randomly, lab values give no suggestion of progression or recovery and overall, is a manpower intensive illness to treat.
I’ve ordered new cloth masks that have a pouch that an additional filter can be inserted into.
I might just print this one out, laminate it and present it to assholes.
https://i.imgur.com/jMWMq6O.jpg
Or perhaps, simply suggest that unmasked assholes will be beaten to death if they approach me.
wzrd1@54: “I might just print this one out, laminate it and present it to assholes.
https://i.imgur.com/jMWMq6O.jpg
Or perhaps, simply suggest that unmasked assholes will be beaten to death if they approach me.”
I suggest a compromise: print it out, then laminate it onto assholes.
@53: So you support Sanders because you think he’ll hasten the end of the US as a single entity most efficiently? That does make your position appear more consistent. I can’t imagine many scenarios that include the US dissolving that don’t involve WWIII. How do you expect it to happen?
Um…my bad. I meant Vicar @51.
@56
like so many others I have met over the years even back in the 60’s they all think that they will survive after the chaos happens and they will end up on the winning side and get to do what they want control everyone else.
uncle frogy
unclefrogy @58: I also think that the belief that a balkanized US would result in, say, six countries that take global warming seriously and at least start slowing their pollution is overly optimistic. The United Southern States at the very least, would continue making a mess, without even the weak federal guidelines to limit them. The Pacific Nations would probably do better, but the Western Inland would make up for it by doing worse. And as for it all dissolving into anarchy, well, there are corporations powerful enough to maintain themselves as corporate nations and which would be highly unlikely to produce good environmental law. I’m afraid the world’s best hope is patching the US into a not too obstructive country as best it can.
@54 wzrd1 Very appreciate that response in lay terms I can get my head around.
A balkanized U.S. may have been remotely possible before 1920 maybe even up to the 50’s. I am afraid it would quickly devolve into chaos and power struggle today. The conservative southern white politicians would not want to increase taxes to pay for government and the minorities the black and latino populations would not likely submit to a new Jim Crow regime either and they are not small populations either. I would think thaat the none violent demonstration we have seen up to now would probably vanish and be replaced by something else more force full.
The trouble with that idea of balkanization is the divisions are not geographic but political we have been moving around way to much and the tax base is slanted urban vs rural like or not we can not solve our problems regionally. I fear it is too late for that no country alone can either it will likely take us all world wide together to build a prosperous healthy future. The way things stand today this 4th that looks very remote.
uncle frogy
I know it’s bad form to return to such an old thread, but having come across it again while purging my open tabs, I can’t let The Vicar’s dishonesty and stupidity @51 pass unanswered.
Oh yes, you do. Your constant effort is to dissuade people from voting for Biden, and since the only remotely plausible winners of the presidential election are Trump and Biden, this makes you a supporter of Trump, whatever words you mouth to the contrary.
Bare assertions without even the pretence of evidence or argument are unconvincing. And this is very much an afterthought – previously you only mentioned that the slower collapse if Biden is elected would let people you hate escape suffering.
An outcome which you must know is not going to happen, so we have to choose between the outcomes that might – and of those, you’ve again stated your preference here for a Trump victory.
What else is “like” that? Either you’re predicting that Biden will if elected keep Barr as AG (which of course he won’t), or you’re not.
You cannot produce a single comment of mine that justifies this insult. All you can say is that I prefer Biden to win rather than Trump – so according to you, everyone who votes for Biden or encourages others to do so (I don’t have a vote, of course, although the outcome will still affect me, as it will everyone on the planet) will be a “Biden bootlicker”. Do you have even the barest shred of honesty needed to make that explicit? I very much doubt it.