No good and getting worse, I guess. He’s teamed up with right-wing fruitcake Dennis Prager to promote something called “No Safe Spaces” which is…I don’t know what it is. An opportunity for conservatives to whine about higher education, or something? Anyway, here’s a promo for it.
Warning: the first third of this video is set on “Utopia University”, of which Corolla says, That campus doesn’t really exist, does it? That doesn’t even look like parody to me. You could run that after Don Lemon’s show on CNN, and it would just play like a commercial.
I think you’re going to see that Corolla has a bit of a credibility problem.
No university looks anything like that. I don’t understand the logic of proclaiming the importance of free speech while striving to silence all those liberal voices that make narrow-minded bigots uncomfortable.
Also, further statements that question Corolla’s credibility: in explaining their pairing, he says that Prager has more wisdom than anyone he knows (which might well be true), and that…he’s funny. I think we can safely say that statement is false.
Oh look, a straight white male doesn’t think race, gender, or sexuality should matter.
How shocking.
Too bad. The Man Show was the greatest TV show of all time. How the mighty have fallen
@2
From what I remember, of the four hosts of the Man Show, only Adam Corolla took that shit seriously, the others realized it for the parody/satire that it was supposed to be.
The man whose family crest says “Teneat Dolor Meus”.
It is interesting how much Jimmy Kimmel and Corolla’s viewpoints have diverged in the interim. The ’65 Lamborghini 350GT Adam was selling a while ago was glorious though. Has to be one of the most beautiful cars ever made.
a_ray_in_dilbert_space — PZ’s post appears as the third result for a web search of the Latin phrase you used at #4. That some pretty fast web crawling.
robro,
In fairness, it probably hasn’t been used much.
a_ray — Use would primarily effects ranking. The fact that PZ’s post is in the results at all only minutes after your post is somewhat impressive.
It’s weird how much alleged free speech absolutism sprang forth as a result of marginalized communities using their free speech to say, “This is bullshit.” Suddenly finding themselves being criticized, alleged free speech absolutists want to shut down free speech so they can go back to those glory days when only straight white cis men got to exercise their free speech without blowback.
And probably to do so from a “safe space,” of course. It’s OK for conservatives to be hypocrites.
Seems to me I’ve seen this movie before. In 1994. https://youtu.be/aIpuS8vTBts
These people are as genuine about their intentions of protecting free speech as gun lovers are about defending the people from a tyrannical government.
I’m a bit unsure about appropriating the word ‘fruitcake’ for non-homophobic contexts. It definitely was offensive in the past, and I would argue that only the targets ought to appropriate these phrases as parody.
If everybody starts saying ‘fruitcake’, even if they don’t intend it to be derogatory, then LGBTQ people are going to hear it a lot, potentially reminding them of past harassment. I know that I heard similar insults all the time in grade school, and the exact phrase at least once.
#13
(With my implied apology for changing the topic from actually significant events.)
I wonder what triggers Adam Carolla.
Greta Samsa:
I heard ‘fruitcake’ a fair amount when I was young, and I’m now 60. As far as slang, it was originally used in the same way ‘loony’ or ‘crackpot’ is used.
What, hold on! Why should I have to actually do research into etymology of a word? Why can’t I assume that my exposure to it is all that there is, and that that should be a good starting point for needless moralizing!
And no, don’t accuse me of “whataboutism.” There’s a finite amount of time in each day and it’s pretty fucking tiring to see people claim that spending excessive amounts of time on the internet arguing over the tiniest shit has no impact. Like, there’s a fucking clock, look at it, and ask yourself if there’s any fucking point. As a queer person myself, it’s fucking offensive to me that you think this is something worth talking about. Resolving the question of whether or not “fruitcake” is homophobic, and whether or not someone using it should be branded a homophobe, does NOTHING to secure rights and privileges for anyone. It’s about cathartic rage, nothing more. So stop it and grow up.
For what it’s worth, in referring to a homosexual person, I’ve never seen the term used with the “-cake” attached. To me a “fruitcake” is “a crazy person” or more likely “a crackpot”. I’d think Gwyneth Paltrow would be more likely referred to as a “fruitcake” in usage as I’ve heard it.
Yeah! Pointing out homophobia when it happens has nothing to do with fighting homophobia!
If we spend all our time trying to stop people from being homophobic, we might not have time to try and stop people from being homophobic!
For the record, I am also in the box of “I have only heard it used to describe gay people”.
Porivil Sorrens:
I think this must be the experience of people much younger than myself, which is why I included my age @ 16. For myself, I’ve only ever heard ‘fruit’ and things like ‘fruit-loop’ applied towards queer people, and I was around when that got popular, and that was a very long time ago. This is a case where a slang usage has been twisted about, so you have people like me and The Very Reverend @ 18, and probably PZ, who know the original slang usage of fruitcake, not later usages.
It’s good to know, and I think it matters. It also matters though, that younger people sometimes realize that a particular usage isn’t the only one, or indeed the original one. In such times, a quick dictionary check can be enlightening, and then we’re all better off, yeah?
Like Caine, I’ve only heard “fruitcake” used to mean “crank” or “loon”, and have, including very recently, used it that way. But I’m happy to stop doing so, now its homophobic use has been brought to my attention. The fine Scottish term, “numpty”, will do me very well.
… an attempt to turn the whole of the U.S.- hell, the world- into one giant safe space for dipshits like Corolla and Prager.
On the subject of “fruitcake” being a homophobic slur: in my youth “-cake” wasn’t added to the word in reference to gay or effeminate men, it was just “fruit”. The only time I heard anything added to it was when people called the local park some gay men liked to hang out in the Fruit Bowl** since it was a small basin park. That said, I can see someone using it as a homophobic slur, especially if they know of both slurs and get them mixed up.
* While I’m sure this was originally meant to be derogatory and devised by homophobes at one point, by the time I became aware of the place the gay men I knew who would hang out there had seized the nickname for themselves.
The origin of the use of “fruitcake” to connote wacko stems from the phrase: “nutty as a fruitcake”. It is the prevalence of nuts, not fruits that leads to the comparison. I have never heard fruitcake used as a slur for LGBTQ. To contend that it is such a slur is akin to objecting to the word “niggardly” as racist, when it is in fact a word of Middle English origin meaning “cheap, miserly”.
A_Ray:
No, it isn’t. Do you specialise in saying all the wrong shit these days? This is about the collision of two separate instances of slang usage. Younger people hear ‘fruitcake’ as a slur against queer people, that is their experience, and you don’t get to come along and say “your experience does not matter.” Of course it matters.
Us older folks learned about the new usage, and were able to inform about the original usage. As the word is now being used as a slur towards queer folk, there’s no harm in dropping it, as KG noted. FFS, do you tell people to get off your lawn, too?
OK, Caine, let’s look at the two situations.
In one case, “young people” think that fruitcake is a slur against gay people because they are ignorant of its origins in the phrase “nutty as a fruitcake”.
In another case, someone reacts negatively to the word niggardly because its resemblance to a racial slur makes them think it is a racial slur?
How are these two situations different? I am not saying that I don’t avoid the use of the term niggardly because to avoid giving offense. I am not saying that perhaps the term fruitcake might be avoided to similarly avoid giving offense. I am saying that the offense in both cases originates in ignorance.
Or do you think ignorance is a good thing?
a_ray_in_dilbert_space, #26
Sorry, you lost me. What do happy people have to do with this?
Saad, Was there an intended point to your feigned obtuseness?
A_Ray:
You need to read for comprehension – both Greta Samsa and Porivil Sorrens pointed out that they have heard fruitcake used as a slur towards queer folk. This is not a matter of them just making shit up. Their experience of the word being used is as a homophobic slur. My experience is of the crackpot sense. Obviously, the word is being used in both ways, and as it is now used as a homophobic slur, it’s a word which can be dropped in favour of one which is not being used in a homophobic sense.
You don’t get to exclude their experiences or dismiss them. Oh, and you missed Saad’s clever point by twenty fucking miles. ‘Gay’ used to mean happy, lighthearted. Saad was pointing out that word meaning can fucking change over time, especially when it comes to slang. For Fuck’s Sake.
@26
Pfft. Words meanings change, broseph.
When you go “lolol it means nutty as a fruitcake so it could never have been used in a homophobic way”, you sound like a petulant middle-schooler going “WHY AM I GETTING SUSPENDED, ALL I DID WAS CALL JIMMY ‘A BUNDLE OF STICKS'”
a_ray_in_dilbert_space, #28
It’s not any more obtuse than what you’re doing with the uses of the word fruitcake.
No, they don’t “think” that fruitcake is a slur against gay people. It is a slur against gay people. It’s not exclusively that, but it is that also. To my knowledge as of the writing of this post, fruitcake has three meanings: One is that cake thing that people find funny to dislike, the other is wacko/kooky/foolish/etc, and the third is the slur against gay people.
This isn’t the case with “niggardly” because niggardly only means miserly so far. If a slang use develops where people start using it in place of the racial slur, then it would be a similar situation as fruitcake.
So was Jimmy Buffett being homophobic when he named his 1994 album and song “Fruitcakes”?
Context, people.
Saad and Caine,
Ah, so it is the vernacular of the most ignorant and uncultured who are supposed to define common usage?
Got it. Presumably, we should all start saying “nuculur” and referring to managers as “deciders”. And perhaps we should stop using the word “crank” to refer to wingnuts given its use among certain automobile fetishists?
The situation with homosexuals co-opting the term “gay” is different. It was intentional. It was done to counter the popularity narrative of the sad, lonely shameful life prevalent at the time. It succeeded because it was brilliant PR–to the point where “gay” is now eschewed for its original denotation of “happy”.
All one does by applying the term fruitcake to the LGBTQ community is demonstrate that one is an ignorant and inarticulate moron who cannot be arsed to understand the metaphors one uses.
Language is not handed down on a tablet from on high. It is not innate. It comes with a history, and that history matters. I refuse to let the ignorant define linguistic use.
“The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between the lightning and the lightning bug.”–Mark Twain
@33
Uh, no. Common use defines common use.
At least two people here have been in situations where it is commonly used as a homophobic slur. Ergo, at least in some regions, it is a homophobic slur.
This really isn’t all that complicated, and “refusing to allow” them to define the term doesn’t change that in at least some areas it is a common homophobic slur.
drsky:
Right back at you. What in the fuck is it, exactly, that you assholes insist on missing? Fruitcake, along with the original slang meaning, has also been adopted as a homophobic slur. TWO SLANG MEANINGS. There’s your fucking context, asshole.
I have absolutely no problem understanding that. What the hell your excuse is, I don’t know.
Porivil Sorrens, Ah, so all I have to do is get two buddies to agree on a usage and the whole world is obliged to follow along? Is “nucular” a correct pronunciation of the world spelled nuclear?
Careful, Porivil, because you are edging dangerously close to Humpty Dumpty territory.
There is another reason not to let the homophobes have this one. It is because of the connotation of fruitcake as “nutty” or “crazy”. It seems way to close to allowing them to conflate LGBTQ with mental illness.
@36
Does the word “regional dialect” mean anything to you, perchance?
Ever notice how like some parts of the US call the metal thing with water innit “a drinking fountain” and some call it “a bubbler”.
Cool, now apply that concept to slurs, and realize that words can be used as slurs in some regions and not used as slurs in other regions.
Congrats, you’re slightly less stupid than you were before!
a_ray_in_dilbert_space, #33
You’re confusing two different things. This isn’t a matter of what ought to be; it’s a matter of what is. Fruitcake is, in some regions and demographics, a slur for a gay person. It doesn’t matter what you and I feel about it. It’s a fact. And if next year, teenagers and college students all over America start using the word “decider” to mean manager, then that will become part of that generation’s slang terminology too.
I don’t know exactly how fruitcake started being used for gay people, but I’m nearly certain it wasn’t a bigot looking at the phrase “nutty as a fruitcake” and going, “No! Not nutty! Gay!”. Fruitcake being used as a slur doesn’t invalidate the original phrase. You can continue to use it that way. Just be prepared for some audiences to not understand or snicker when you use it. That’s just how language works.
a_ray_in_dilbert_space, #33
Yes. That history includes many shifts and additions in the meaning of words. And fruitcake meaning a slur for gay will become part of that history too. Why should language stop changing now exactly? Did something horrible happen a few decades ago when people added a completely new meaning to the word “cool”?
Porivil,
Well, I might be less stupid for reading that if it weren’t absolute bullshit! Is it seriously your contention that this all comes down to regional differences in vernacular?
Fact 1: The origin of the term fruitcake comes from the saying “nutty as a fruitcake”
Fact 2: Some bigoted asshats refer to homosexuals as “fruits”
Fact 3: Some bigoted asshats are too ignorant to know of fact 1 and too lazy to be arsed to even understand the slurs they use
Fact 4: The use of “fruitcakes” as a slur against the LGBTQ community has a connotation of mental illness due to its use in the much more common usage “nutty as a fruitcake”. This is a dangerous throwback to the days when homosexuality was considered a mental illness.
Question: Exactly how many ignorant fools must adopt a malapropism before it becomes “common usage” despite the fact that the conventional usage remains more common? This seems like your territory, Porivil.
Saad,
There is a difference between the adoption of the word gay by homosexuals as a brilliant PR move, the adoption of “cool” as a rebellious teen expression and bland acceptance of a malapropism used by imbeciles who are too ignorant and lazy to even understand the language they are using. The first adds something to the language. The second takes nothing away. The third not only demands we yield to the stupidest among us, it also appears as if it is a dangerous allusion to the bad old days when homosexuality appeared in the DSM.
@40
Yes, it is absolutely my contention that this comes down to regional differences in behavior. I’ve never drank water from a “bubbler”, eaten a “hoagie” sandwich, or heard someone call a gay person queer in person.
Faggot and Fruitcake were the two I heard the most growing up and the ones I still hear the most in person when people drive by to yell and throw things for me and my friends.
Whether or not you want to give them the right to define the word doesn’t change that there is a sizable amount of people in the real world using it as a slur.
Saad: “Fruitcake is, in some regions and demographics, a slur for a gay person.”
Citation fucking needed. What regions? What demographics? Are illiterate, ignorant morons now considered a demographic–I mean other than Trump voters, of course? And come on, we know exactly how this went down. An ignoramus learned at a tender age that homosexuals were referred to as “fruits”. At some point, said ignoramus hears the term fruitcake applied to some nutjob and just assumes it means gay.
Look, I’m just not about to blandly accept anything that conflates terms for homosexual and crazy. That doesn’t seem like a step forward to me.
So you’re advising homophobes not to use “fruitcake” as a slur against gay people, because it’s a “dangerous throwback to the days when homosexuality was considered a mental illness.”? I’m sure they’ll take that into consideration and stop using it.
I’d say about the same number of ignorant fools as think they have either the right or the power to stop word usages changing.
@43
That is completely irrelevant to whether or not people commonly use it as a slur. In at least two regions, that is the case, no matter how much you or I might wish otherwise.
By definition (“a particular sector of a population”), yes.
You have literally just described linguistic change. That is how words change definitions.
KG: “So you’re advising homophobes not to use “fruitcake” as a slur against gay people, because it’s a “dangerous throwback to the days when homosexuality was considered a mental illness.”? I’m sure they’ll take that into consideration and stop using it.”
No. I’m saying we need to recognize an opportunity when we see it–call out the bigots not just on their bigotry but on their ignorance and illiteracy as well. “Dude, it’s nutty as a fruitcake. Your don’t even know your own bigoted vocabulary.” Then just laugh them off the stage.
Look, I still oppose the pronunciation of the word “nuclear” as “nucular”. All it does is make the speaker look ignorant. I call people on it–particularly when they are advocating use of nucular weapons. I’d say the same applies here.
Language changes when we acquiesce to the changes. I am not about to acquiesce to a change that harkens back to the bad old days when homosexuals were considered mentally ill.
#16, Caine makes the good point that I probably should say ‘reclamation’.
#17, Matt
This is quite hilarious in context. My argument was that queer people will be reminded of past harassment, and I mentioned that I’d heard the phrase often myself; I guess this is too subtle. I’ve implied dozens of times that I’m trans, and I’m also gay. At least now that I’ve said it explicitly perhaps people will stop insulting me by claiming that I’m a TERF or that I whine about things from which I’m totally divorced.
Obviously not everyone disagreeing with you is just some straight cis person trying to make queer people out as whingers.
I had consulted the dictionary, and Wiktionary’s third entry describes it as tertiarily an insult to gay people. In my opinion the phrase is therefore ruined, at least for now. Some neutral terms collide with epithets, a c-word being one of them. I can only speak for myself, but if I needed to describe a chip in a piece of armor I would probably look to the thesaurus for a better term – as David Howard said he would’ve had he realized – rather than exercising cathartic rage on others for supposedly exercising cathartic rage and needlessly moralizing.
@46
“Hey, guy who threw a bottle at me from his truck window! Fruitcake doesn’t mean gay, it means stupid!”
Language changes regardless of whether we acquiesce to the changes.
#43 a_ray_in_dilbert_space
Several of us have said we’ve heard it in that respect, and some are saying they’ve primarily or only heard it that way. Are we illiterate, ignorant morons? The etymology of a term doesn’t exclusively determine it’s meaning.
A_Ray:
I’d say you’re the one in a position to know that, considering your compleat embrace of willful ignorance and idiocy.
Greta Samsa @ 47:
I didn’t think to check wiktionary. I’ll be more careful to expand my sources in the future, thank you.
Yes. (Somewhat more accurately, /nukjular/.)
Reclaiming a slur seems like a risky business to me and someone using one will face certain realities. For example you will eventually use it in the presance of someone hurt by the slur. They have every right to express how the word makes them feel.
That’s the balance. Tough shit, if you get criticized you recognize their reality, accept it and move on. You chose the path, accommodate the reality around you. Anything else makes it statistically certain you will feel like an asshole.
Otherwise my place here is in avoiding said slurs and letting the affected community decide for themselves how to handle it.
I think it is extremely rude to refer to someone as a number rather than by their ‘nym.
Jesus. 80% of the commentary here is arguing about fruitcake and its tenuous homophobic connotation. This is why we get mocked by conservatives and centrists as well.
No, it’s not. And I don’t give a shit about being mocked by either conservatives or centrists.
Lmao, oh no, limp dicked centrists and literal moustache twirlers might mock us! Whatever shall we do!
Greta Samsa@49,
OK. Help me out here. How does hearing an illiterate moron express himself in an inarticulate manner make one a fellow illiterate moron?
I also find it disturbing that people are utterly ignoring the fact that allowing fruitcake to be used as a term for LGBTQ carries along with it the connotations of mental illness associated with its more common usage. I am old enough to remember the liberation of homosexuals from the confines of the DSM.
How we express ourselves matters. Origins of the words we use matter. It is not just that using the wrong word or the wrong pronunciation may make you appear uneducated, it is that it will interfere with your message.
The best writing teacher I ever had used to say, “You would never refer to a road as “curvaceous”.”
Porivil: “Lmao, oh no, limp dicked centrists…” Now there’s a lovely sentiment. Anyone want to pooper scoop that, or are you going to just let it lie there?
@58
Whether or not we “let them use it” as a slur, people are using it as a slur. Semantic Change doesn’t give a shit what you or I think. Words change based on how people use them.
The irony is, of course, palpable.
(Suffice to say, I don’t much care about preserving the feelings useful idiots for the right that feel their need to temper beliefs with just a little racism, sexism, and homophobia.)
Porivil Sorrens
The use of gendered insults is discouraged here.
That’s wonderful. Don’t much care, but good to know.
also good to know
So, Porivil, who do you consider to be a “useful idiot”? Me? PZ? When will your little circle be pure enough?
PZ isn’t a centrist, as far as I can tell from reading his blog. It’s not an issue of purity, it’s a matter of having conflicting goals.
Anyone who feels the need to temper good ideas with rightist bigotry and conservatism (ie, centrists) is working at opposite ends from me, and I’m not exactly going to make common cause with someone who is working towards things I oppose.