Have you ever experienced the situation in this Shortpacked comic?
No? You haven’t been reading the comments here, then.
Also, compare and contrast the response to car theft vs. threats against women. It’s…revealing.
The threat of misandry!
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
This seems scarily familiar.
I knew a guy who blamed feminism for men’s buffoonery in sitcoms and commercials.
Yeah, dude, one of the goals of feminism has been to recognise women’s innate ability to know which brand of cold water detergent gets whites their brightest.
Brownian:
Huh. I think I was cheated on the innate ability front.
Geez, not even Malaya deserves to be stuck in the middle of that…
Seriously, it’s good to see Dave Willis is on our side in this. I hope the rest of the Loosely Connected To Walkyverse collective (Jeph Jacques, John Allison, Danielle Corsetto, R Stevens, Randy Millholland — it’s the St. Elsewhere of comics) has our back too.
The sad thing is how accurate it is.
Oops. Did I leave off the sarcasm tag on that last sentence again?
Honestly, men and their HTML. Amiright?
Whoever this “Andry” guy is, I think I’m JUSTIFIED in not liking him.
Is the Misandry Signal produced by the same manufacturer as the Libertarian Signal?
Brownian:
Just the one guy? Lucky.
Huh, browsing the comments over on Shortpacked, they’re overall not as bad as imagined they’d be. This one’s special…
WIMMINZ JUST WANT ATTENTION AMIRITE?
Chances of this comment thread not being invaded by d00dz and their hurt fee-fees being near zero, I’ll probably stay out of it.
Anyway, I did just read the article on Coyote Crossing, too, and it was an excellent comparison to highlight the double standard in behavior. But, guaranteed, you’ll have a d00d show up any moment now making shit up about how feminists think prison-rape is funny and other BS like that.
faultline.org isn’t loading for me. Did we break it?
Oh, no…I had to explain to my wife how fluorescent compounds in laundry detergents enhance the whiteness of clothing the other day — I AM A MANGINA!
One hope for salvation: I do have a tendency to forget to check my shirts for pens before I wash them, and she’s much better at that than I am. It’s probably those paleolithic gatherer traits.
The Millsy Signal has likely gone out.
Incidentally, Leslie is an interesting character — despite her love for Robin, she’s the only completely sane, normal character in the entire comic (Ethan is kind of a flake but generally pretty normal, and Amber’s character development has consisted primarily of going from broken bird to pretty badass new mommy, so they come close). Which is especially funny because in Leslie’s very first appearance, she threw out a bag that I think Ethan didn’t want instead of reused it — totally, completely unlike her current character IMHO.
Worse, the bearded guy in the cartoon (IMO) isn’t actually good at cooking and cleaning and yet manages to be ‘offended’ by commercials that imply as much…
Well, I do have one quibble: judging from the comments here, Defender Dudes rarely run off after one comment. They tend to stay around, doubling down on their horseshit, until the meanies at Pharyngula poke enough holes that they start leaking enough hateful crap to get banned.
I live in a bit of a liberal bubble.
The follow-up to the comment you quoted is nice:
[Looks around to see if a certain President of the JREF is paying attention.]
re @8;
No, no! They don’t want attention – they just seem to! Because they have these spazzy wimmin’s brains that can’t keep two thoughts straight and always repeat themselves, and they need a man to tell them how to protest properly…..
Erista (aka Eris), it won’t load for me either. Too many Pharyngulites checkjng it out, perhaps.
This is the first you’ve realised this?
The technical term for the behaviour of men such as yourself who pretend to be feminists just so they can get into women’s good graces AND take it so far as to figure out how laundry works is ‘Bright, not just White Knight Syndrome’.
Brownian, the follow-up was indeed nice, and so were the three (at the time I viewed the thread) comments agreeing with it.
I have literally been told that rape of men by women doesn’t matter. I’ve also been treated with suspicion and contempt by the police officer who responded to MY calling the cops after being assaulted by my ex-wife. On the other hand, it was only once, each time. Meanwhile, misogyny is pretty much a daily deluge.
I’m uncomfortable with the statement that misandry doesn’t exist, because it’s contrafactual if parsed straightforwardly (even if the broader point that’s being gotten at is true, in a sort of Reaganesque way). But it’s pretty clear which is the bigger problem, and in most cases misandry is simply a flipside effect of misogyny.
Ahem. At this point I’d like to introduce my first homecooked Rationalization Hamster:
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3prfb9/
Because the
Apologies for the slowness to load. I am so incredibly unhappy with my web host right now I can’t stand it. And no budget to switch.
I am too dumb to close tags. Noted.
Well, I should modify that slightly. If we redefine “misogyny” and “misandry” as entrenched, institutionalized societal discrimination and marginalization rather than as attitudes individuals or sets of individuals hold, it’s much more nearly true that misandry doesn’t exist.
That sums up the plagues of MRAs we sometimes get here in a nutshell. I cannot decide what it is that draws them here in such numbers – some kind of ‘misandry signal’, or a new evolutionary adaptation that allows them to release an electronic distress pheromone into teh intertoobs that summons more drones from the nest when
their misogyny is exposed for the evidence free, bigoted blather it isthey are victimised by hordes of castrating feminazis…that depends on what you think misandry means
if you mean a person’s “hatred”* of men qua men, then I’m pretty sure misandry only exists in some radfem sepratist circles
if you mean systemic discrimination against men because of “hatred”* of men, then it doesn’t exist. where men are treated worse than women, it’s still because of patriarchal ideas about how men shouldn’t/can’t be woman-like. It’s (pretty brutal, in some cases) backsplash from misogyny, and using the term “misandry” makes it sound like the polar opposite of misogyny, instead.
– – – – – –
*either literal hatred, or assignment of second-class status
note to self: refresh before hitting “post”
Jadehawk, chef d’orchestre féministe:
PZ Myers #11
Is this being a mangina or just a case of mansplaining?
@ Brownian –
Friggin’ hysterical.
Well, a result of entrenched gender roles… partriarchy in our case. That isn’t immediately the same as misogyny, although the phenomena have common origins.
@Jadehawk –
Well put.
Part of the problem with the clueless doodz is that when they do finally find an example of society treating men poorly in some regard, they yell; “Misandry! It’s teh misandry! Proof of an ebil conspiracy by teh castrating feminazis to emasculate real manly men(TM)!”, when the reality is altogether different – the patriarchy hurts men too, and the best way to improve the lives of both women and men is to dismantle the oppressive patriarchal societal norms that act as a social straightjacket and punish anyone who refuses to conform. To do that, however, they would have to give up the various forms of unearned privilege that they receive as cis/het (and usually white) men from the patriarchal mechanisms of society, and they simply aren’t prepared to do that, so it is easier for them to try to heap the blame on ‘feminazis’ rather than actually do anything to improve the situation.
Unfortunately the whole “misandry” thing is only the tip of the iceberg. I know people who honestly believe that the only form of racism that still exists is that discriminating against white people. And the only form of discrimination that exists is against Christian heterosexuals.
Seriously! I grew up in Texas and believe me, I got stories. I have no idea how people can so willfully deceive themselves. Then again, seems like the order of the day for many folks.
It appears that I am Mr tautology today – apologies.
@Azkyroth
The idea that any kind of rape is inconsequential is a horrible, terrible, AWFUL idea that needs to be stomped like so many metaphorical cockroaches. That’s a product of rape culture, not “misandry” (as I’m sure you already know – I’m just always appalled whenever I see or hear of anyone hand-waving away the violation of bodily autonomy).
Jadehawk,
Nah. It’s also encountered among apolitical women who’ve had a number of abusive and/or unfaithful partners. The only women I know (in meatspace) who hate men are either apolitical or anti-feminist.
My sampling is biased either way, but since in meatspace I can’t select acquaintances nearly as easily as I can online, I suspect the apolitical and anti-feminist types of “misandrist” outnumber the political separatist types by orders of magnitude.
+++++
In any case I don’t think it’s a useful term, as it seems to draw a parallel with actually-existing misogyny, which happens to be an institutional phenomenon such that it is currently difficult to imagine otherwise.
I think you have the makings of an evo psych article! Women are better at communication and relationships and so more careful to use appropriate tags and explanations. Or, women are more detail-oriented because of all that berry gathering. Or whatever story suits your fancy. Of course, these female traits can’t be presented as advantages, so it’ll have to point out that communicative signals or awareness to details are of lesser importance than, say, analytical thought or producing original content (where obviously women are naturally deficient).
NC here, yeah. Me too. A lot. I could tell stories too but most of you would vomit. So I won’t.
Yeah, that’s what I was getting at with the “flipside” bit.
@27: Wait, misandry totally exists, and it’s totally a function of patriarchy. These are not mutually exclusive – patriarchy is bad for both men and women and institutionalizes harmful attitudes and role scripts for both. It’s way worse for women to be sure, since they’re not also advantaged in the ways men are by patriarchy, but men are definitely institutionally discriminated against in a number of ways. Just almost none of the ways the MRAssholes bring up (and, of course, the existence of some misandry doesn’t somehow justify misogyny, nor mean we shouldn’t have a conversation focused on women and not men). Hatred, institutional discrimination, and harm are not zero-sum games.
What I would say is that men are not categorically marginalized in our culture.
As compared to women?
Citation seriously fucking needed. Provide, plz.
I agree, but I don’t see how this makes misandry a thing.
Just did a quick search on FB, found a couple of Mr Andrys but no Ms Andrys, not that means that they don’t exist.
Misandry exists, it is totally a real thing. Just because Halley’s Comet only comes around once every 75-76 years doesn’t mean it isn’t real. Hardly anyone in the West gets polio, smallpox, the Black Death, or those weird diseases from House, M.D. but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
Don’t discount the very real harm or misandry just because the average man is more likely to get struck by lightning multiple times than actually suffer actual damages from misandry.
In this specific case, the person claimed that a woman to forcing a man to have sex wasn’t rape because he wasn’t the one being penetrated, and claims of rape by men should be disregarded because of this and because of how other men treat women. I think that’s a little more specific than ambient rape culture. But again, this was a singular instance.
whitesplaining like mansplaining is all about the fear of the removal of privilege. They fucking hate the way the world is moving; more liberal, more tolerant… “oh my. Save me! Save my privileged status.”
@ John,
By calling it misandry, you’re implying a cause that isn’t there.
It really comes down to unintended consequences and the exaltation of masculinity conceptions, not their debasement.
Tyrant al-Kalām:
True enough, though it’s difficult to draw the line there. You could use patriarchy to describe it instead, but the fact is that the backlash against men stepping out of their entrenched gender roles is as much about “ew, icky, girly” as it is about gender essentialism in general. Misogyny is widespread and takes many subtle forms.
misandry in the sense that there are people out there who hate men for being men might exist. Though, those that cry misandry whenever the issues of misogyny comes up are not talking about that – they’re talking about a ding to their insulating privilege.
Institutionalized, systematic, widespread endemic misandry – no. Just like “reverse racism!” that’s a bullshit claim. Every time a legitimate issue men face is brought up, it can be tied to partriarchy or misogyny. I.e. men not getting custody of the kids in divorce proceedings or male rape victims being disbelieved/dismissed and not assisted.
This can be an honest misunderstanding. Under British law, for instance, rape means the defendant put his penis in someone. Ergo, under British law, a person without a penis cannot commit rape.
So you’ll get some people arguing this honestly just as they argue for dictionary atheism, or any other hyperliteral understanding they may have learned was correct-by-definition.
This was the prevalent understanding of rape in the USA not so very long ago — and may still be, for all I know without polling data.
Forgive the maybe stupid question (does one need Trigger Warnings for questions? I guess I’ll issue one).
Is there a concept of a man being raped by a woman without penetration? Does rape in these cases always include penetration with something.
One hope for salvation: I do have a tendency to forget to check my shirts for pens before I wash them, and she’s much better at that than I am. It’s probably those paleolithic gatherer traits.
My grandmother taught me that White Rain or Aqua Net hair spray will take those stains out like nobody’s business. I always keep a can of one or the other in my laundry room, because the husband forgets his pens, too.
where men are treated worse than women, it’s still because of patriarchal ideas about how men shouldn’t/can’t be woman-like. It’s (pretty brutal, in some cases) backsplash from misogyny, and using the term “misandry” makes it sound like the polar opposite of misogyny, instead.
THIS THIS THIS.
Early in my marriage, I saw a super-cute teddy bear when I was shopping, and bought it for my husband. He loved it, and we still have that bear, sitting on one of my sideboards in a place of honor, where Daddy can pick him up and love on him. My mother said it was “faggoty” for him to be so fond of that teddy bear.
She also said that my son would grow up “faggot” because I wouldn’t push him into sports that he wasn’t interested in playing. HUH?
This is how misogyny hurts men, too. Calling boys who like teddy bears or don’t take part in sports “faggots” and “sissies” is precisely what you said about backsplash from misogyny. It’s horrible for a man to show anything that might remotely make him look womanish in any way shape or form.
And then we wonder why our culture has such toxic attitudes towards women, gays and bisexuals?
@Azkyroth
You’re right, that is a specific case and that person seems to have an antiquated notion of the definition of rape. Hell, even the FBI’s newest definition of rape doesn’t cover the circumstance of a woman raping a man via PIV.
http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/attorney-general-eric-holder-announces-revisions-to-the-uniform-crime-reports-definition-of-rape
(Note to MRAs: NOT an example of misandry)
Seriously! I grew up in Texas and believe me, I got stories. I have no idea how people can so willfully deceive themselves. Then again, seems like the order of the day for many folks.
It’s the privilege. They see it slipping away, and think that the way to get it back is by casting themselves as victims.
That’s Privileged Asshatery 101
Uuh, it’s a patriarchic double whammy, because, of course, it’s also horrible to be a “faggot”.
A woman has appendages that can be introduced into a persons body against their will, and she can use other things (not necessarily intended for penetration) like strap ons, brooms, knifes…
I guess it depends on the laws definition if this is legally counted as rape or “only” sexual assault, but tbh, I don’t see how it can be in any way useful or do justice to the crime if rape is so narrowly defined as only introducion of penises.
keenacat,
I’m not arguing for that narrow definition at all. I’m just naive about what is meant by rape the way it is commonly used here (and maybe legally, but I guess I should read wikipedia for that).
The tone of this conversation was inconsistent with honest misunderstanding. But, of course, why should my report be believed?
@ Tyrant –
There is a very convincing theory that says homophobia is a direct descendant of misogyny.
Basically, if being female wasn’t so horrifying, masculinity wouldn’t be defined as opposing femininity. Therefore, taking on anything that is less than uber-masculine is tainting. By having sex with a male, a man “becomes” woman-like and therefore is defiled as non-male and the very idea that a man can “become” female is horrifying. Hence the phobia.
Or, to put it another way, it is always alright for a man to have sex, but it is never alright to have sex with a man.
Tyrant,
I know you weren’t arguing for that. I was replying to what life is lilapwl brough up in #52.
Azkyroth,
I am so sorry that happened to you. I hope you heal. *offering hug if wanted*
Tyrant:
Yes. One can rape by enveloping someone, I suppose you’d say, against his will. It’s rare but it does happen.
Azkyroth, as far as I can tell, your comments have been treated with respect here.
Borked post, FTFM.
Looking at that link, being forcefully penetrated by an object is not rape, but assault with penetration since only a penis can rape. And if someone came and argued that a woman unconsensually penetrated with something other than a penis wasn’t really raped I’d be a bit pissed off. As I think most would be. When I say a bit, I mean a lot. I wouldn’t buy “honest misunderstanding” as an excuse. I don’t buy it in case of woman supposedly not being to rape a man either.
Men, and especially boys, can be stimulated to erection while their brains say “NO!”
This idea that it is impossible for a woman to rape a man is so offensive…
Agreed.
The only form of ‘misandry’ that exists is oppression on other axes that varies by gender. Black dudes are oppressed in different ways from black women. It doesn’t make sense to call the specifically male-gendered racism misogyny.
This doesn’t mean misandry is a thing whitey mcstraighterson deals with. Dudes qua dudes are still not oppressed.
Yep, that’s how it is in Britain. And IIRC (from a previous discussion on Pharyngula), a woman committing sexual assault can be imprisoned for just as long as a man committing rape.
Law’s wonky all around. Take Michigan for example. Chapter LXXVI is titled Rape. Read the definitions and you’ll see women are capable of committing any of these offenses, against any victim. But (if I understand right) a woman will never be charged with rape — because no one in Michigan is actually charged with a criminal offense called rape. The worst offense is “criminal sexual conduct in the first degree; felony.”
Off the top of my head I don’t know if there’s any US states today where men can rape and women can’t, but there’s 50 different laws and I just don’t know.
I don’t understand why people think otherwise. I mean, the meme of randomly getting an unwanted erection in some awkward, embarrassing situation (swimming, sitting in class, etc.) is basically a universal running joke…
A lot — a LOT — of people take an erection as indication of consent.
People, people, people; the negative effects men face due to gender roles are due to mysogony. Male is the default, anything not male is inferior. Men who are raped are treated like they don’t exist because real men don’t’ get raped; women get raped. Why that’s what we even call men who are raped in prison; “bitches”. Gays are treated as shit because they’re womanlike, men get treated like shit for enjoying “feminine actives” or jobs, men are punished for needing help because men are strong and women are weak. Sorry but it’s not because being male sucks, it’s because you’re not being male ENOUGH.
Sorry, I should have said “proof” of consent.
^this.
Sad fact: a lot of people have borked ideas about consent.
I have yet to encounter a single example of claimed systemic, institutionalized misandry that is not actually (if even a real example of injustice) an example of “patriarchy hurts men too”, at least not in this particular culture and society.
“We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective”:
You just boiled down what I’ve been trying to explain for years into one beautiful sentence. Excellent.
The contradictions that can exist between state laws and the FBI’s definition can be really confusing, that’s for sure.
As for men and boys being stimulated to erection and/or orgasm against their will, conversely it’s also possible for a woman to be brought to orgasm against her will. That’s a physical response that is hard (if not impossible) to control, and a person’s body betraying them in that way doesn’t at all mitigate the fact that they were violated.
Amphiox.
I’m waiting for that John Horstmann guy to provide. Sit with me and have a cup of tea, this might take a while.
Rutee brings up a strong counter point. the attitude towards black males in the US may be an actual case of misandrony…but it’s so race sensitive
Keenacat:
QFT.
There’s some hope, I guess, if a law school can produce a young lawyer like Andy Izenson. Standard trigger warnings for discussion of rape and victim blaming apply.
Caerie,
Agreed. It probably comes up less frequently because it’s harder to prove, but given our culture, I can’t imagine the extra shame and confusions victims — especially young ones — must feel if they climax during a rape or molestation.
Mythbri:
In fact, “body betrayal” — yes, there’s a name for it — can make recovery that much harder, because the victim often feels complicit.
I was thinking and I can actually come up with some forms of discrimination that are based on gender. But, not ones that are based soleley on Gender.
Young black men, are almost always portrayed and stereotyped in a negative fashion. While young black women are often not.
Single men, are often seen as being suspect. especially if they are older and have no children or family. This was something that was highlighted in the Culture of Fear.
So, there are some instances of discrimination but the first has more to do with race than anything and the section is more of a media bogeyman than anything.
ruteekatreya:
Good point. The same can be said for Native American men in certain areas of the US, too. The discrimination they experience is different from what Native women face. It seems likely to be an issue for many men of minorities associated with certain ideas about masculinity.
I propose a counter challenge to this. Try to find a young black women in a Hollywood role with dark skin.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButNotTooBlack
Thanks for the explanations everyone and good night.
Single fathers, too.
@We Are Ing
Gabourey Sidibe (star of Precious) has darker skin than one normally sees for black women in starring roles, and she’s a lot more atypical in her build as well. Unfortunately, there’s not too many examples to disprove the trope. :P
@Azkyroth #87
I second that, very much so. My parents divorced when I was nine, and my brothers and I would spend every other weekend with him. He lived in a bordering state, so it was quite the drive to get there and a rare opportunity for me to see some of my friends as well. My best friend’s mother refused to let her come over to my dad’s house because he was a divorced man, which obviously meant there was something wrong with him. :P
Because they most often have roles of most inconsequential characters, too insignificant to even be worth stereotyping.
I don’t suggest telling Sikivu Hutchinson or the other writers at Black Skeptics that:
On TV: “You want a scary black lady to be nice to you? Tell her you like her nails.”
I suspect that young black women are also at an elevated risk of rape due to the way they’re simultaneously sexualized and dehumanized in the media. This is the case with Native women and, I believe, Hispanic women in the US. Dangerous and damaging stereotypes aren’t always about illiciting a fear response.
Except she’s only used because they needed someone atypical to highlight the utter shit life of the character (ie how horrible it is to be black). I can only think of one or two where a dark skinned woman is portrayed in a standard of beauty role. Hollywood is still obscenely racist
Kalliope:
True. A lot of women experience an orgasm during the course of being raped. That is no more an indicator of consent than an erection is – our bodies have certain responses which take place regardless of what the rest of our brain is screaming. For both men and women who are raped, this tends to add heavily to the feeling of shame and guilt, as they feel that should not have happened unless they somehow secretly wanted it to happen.
Meanwhile, last summer, I was on a camping trip with my 7 year old daughter, when she began complaining of and otherwise indicating significant vaginal discomfort. She’s had a history of difficulty wiping correctly (she is a special needs child) and her mother was also prone to infections, so she had me take a look and confirm that her vulva was bright red and swollen, with a foul-smelling, brownish discharge. I took her to a local clinic (this was in Truckee) and the doctor asked me a few probing questions about whether I was her primary caretaker, then immediately ordered a hospital check for herpes and proceed to ask my daughter a set of very leading questions about inappropriate touching with a freaking gleam in her eye. To the doctor’s surprise and no one else’s, the test came back negative, and she was prescribed an appropriate anti-bacterial cream. We got out of there and back to camping without further incident but the experience was deeply unsettling.
Or rather, they mostly have only one single stereotype – poor, with a lot of children, waiting at home for her criminal husband/boyfriend. 2 minutes on screen, most of which either holding a screaming baby, yelling at her husband/boyfriend or being hit by her husband/boyfriend. Or some combination of the three.
If not that, then they are the token black character. Although, I think even the token black character is more often male.
Seriously, was there a single black character in Precious who was nice to her?
It’s a Well Known Fact that coding HTML is an atavistic race memory of prehistoric cave paintings. That’s why the bison paintings at Lascaux have angle brackets.
@ erichoug
Simple: It is difficult to get someone one to admit something when their enjoyment of privilege depends on not admitting it. (A slight modification of the Upton Sinclair quote: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it”)
Essentially, they have a vested interest in keeping themselves ignorant, they value “feel” over “think”, and admitting that they have a hand in the problem would cause them to feel bad. So, instead of dealing with those bad feelings by thinking and reasoning about them, they choose the simple option.
The situation is not much different in Canada, I’m afraid. I remember reading an article on leniency of sentencing of rape in the Canadian NWT, in which this comment by territorial court judge Michel Bourassa appeared: “The majority of rapes in the Northwest Territories occur when the woman is drunk and passed out. A man comes along and sees a pair of hips and helps himself.”
(I know the quote because, at the age of fourteen, the phrase “sees a pair of hips and helps himself” disgusted me enough that I remembered it well enough to Google it, over two decades later.)
Uuh, it’s a patriarchic double whammy, because, of course, it’s also horrible to be a “faggot”.
The reason being gay is so horrible to these idiots is because it’s womanish to love or have sex with a man.
It always comes back to the attitude about women.
Always.
PZ Myers a Mangina? This is the Mangina!
(Warning: Extremely NSFW and stereotypical gender roles)
My best friend’s mother refused to let her come over to my dad’s house because he was a divorced man, which obviously meant there was something wrong with him.
If they would say that about your father, imagine what they say about women who are divorced.
My mother divorced the most worthless human being ever to walk the face of the earth, in the 60s, in East Texas. You wouldn’t believe how many people said there had to be something wrong with her, that she had wanted to whore around, that’s why she divorced. If you think they refrained from saying such things about her to her face or in front of her children–you would be dead fucking wrong. People used to pull their children away from my brothers and me, and would say, as if we weren’t there, “Never go near that child. Their mother’s a whore/harlot/tramp, etc.” When they pulled the children from me, in particular, they would sometimes add, “And she’ll be one, too.”
Things haven’t changed all that much since the 60s.
During my divorcee years in the 90s, I had a boyfriend whose parents didn’t approve of me and called me a slut–to my face–simply because I was a divorcee. And before you think it’s something confined to the backwaters of Texas, the current husband’s upper-middle-class Bay Area family called me Jezebel (his grandmother), and said that I was probably divorced because I cheated on my previous husband (his father). Without knowing anything about the circumstances, or even asking, the automatic assumption was that I was a slut. Why else would I be divorced?
Maybe you need to ask your mom what people said about her for being a divorcee. I bet it would blow your mind.
Clark Cox:
…while frequently priding themselves on the opposite and projecting their failing onto the actual victims.
@ We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective #72
That all depends what you mean by gays being “womanlike”.
It has been my experience that some straight men are more comfortable around effeminate gay men because they fit the sterotype they have in their head. On the other hand they are very uncomfortable around masculine gay men because it doesn’t fit their sterotype.
@Aquaria
My mind was blown when I was nine, when I had to tell my uncle, who was doing the “bros before hos” thing in an attempt to make my dad feel better about the divorce, that “My mommy is not a bitch.” (To my dad’s credit, I said it before HE had the chance to say anything, and my uncle did not do that again in my presence, although I did hear my uncle mutter that I would grow up to be just like my mother). My mind was blown by the kids at school who thought that both of my parents were broken, bad people who didn’t really love me or my brothers. My mind was blown by the creepy way the men at church acted toward my mother after she was “fair game,” and the time that she had to call her friend to help her get rid of one of them after she went on a date with him.
My adult mind was blown when I found out that my grandmother, who had left and divorced her husband after he tried to kill her, was disowned by her family for doing so. My mind was blown when I heard about the harassment she faced from a neighbor, who told her that since she was already a whore, she should prostitute herself in order to make more money than she did as a legal secretary.
I know that divorced women go through crap, just the way that divorced men do. My anecdote was a specific one, in response to Azkyroth’s comment.
@mikee
Based on my sample size of one conversation I overheard my co-workers having, there are good gays and bad gays. The good ones are the ones that do the fucking. The bad ones are the ones that are being penetrated. Said a lot about how they feel about women, too.
I second Caerie’s comment # 76 that this is a briliantly concise and insightful statement by “We are Ing”
mythbri
That doesn’t surprise me at all.
For some reason some straight people (usually men) think it is somehow acceptable to ask if you are the “man or the woman” in the relationship.
There are several ways of dealing with this
1) I play dumb and ask them to explain what they mean. (Most get embarrassed at this stage)
2) I suggest they come round some time so I can show them. (which usually gets a laugh from anyone else present).
2) If it is a guy, I suggest
Damn, should preview more carefully.
Re; the discussion upthread about the idea in some quarters that it is impossible for women to rape men; part of the problem stems from another toxic, patriarchal construction of masculinity – the idea that men permenantly want sex all the time, extended in scenarios of sexual assault or rape by a woman in the form of “it can’t be rape; you’re a bloke, so you must have enjoyed it” or it can be presented in the form of an off colour joke along the lines of “why do no women ever try to rape me?” etc.
It links back to what “We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective” said @ 72;
A man who states that he was raped or sexually assaulted by a woman also states that he found the sexual advance of that woman to be unwanted, and so he is failing to be ‘male enough’ to satisfy the common social construction of masculinity that depicts men as permenantly in pursuit of sex, and so he is either disbelieved or pilloried for failing to peform masculinity in the expected fashion.
If I recall correctly, the person in question claimed elsewhere in the argument that men would always want sex and only claimed to have been raped to weasel out of paternity responsibility, which fits right in with this argument. Unfortunately that was a thread on BlagHag pre-FTB move, so I can’t go check readily…
@aquaria
Men who don’t have plushies because it is for “sissies” don’t know what they are missing out on.
@ Aquaria and Azkyroth–
There’s a lot of weirdness about divorce for both genders. I was raised mostly by my dad (parents divorced with I was 6) and people always thought it was weird, would make comments and generally view him with suspicion. I never really understood it until I became a non-custodial parent (by choice)…having a boyfriend not believe me and claim that I must have done something horrible to “lose” custody of my daughter was a real eye-opener. As is all the men complaining about paying child support…I gladly pay child support. I wish I could pay more. Kids cost money to raise; it’s my duty as a mother to contribute to my daughter’s welfare.
I know my ex-husband also has to put up with some suspicion, being a single father. Mostly, I think he gets a lot of misplaced pity by people that think that I must be a horrible person to “abandon” my child…like, even my daughter has asked me if this is true.
It’s really fucked up for both genders, is my point.
Lurking behind the doodz threadjacking is the terrible fear of being treated as badly as women are. The number of people who learned the word “misandry” before they learned “misogyny” is about the same as the number of pro-sugar dentists. So these guys have an idea, if not always detailed knowledge, of the injustice and harm misogyny can cause. Since an imagined threat to men must always take precedence over a real threat to women*, the dudebros feel justified in monopolizing discussions.
* Especially if their progressiver-than-thou reputation is at risk.
Agent Silversmith @ 115, as usual, you cut straight to the heart of the matter and wonderfully so. This, in particular, is a good observation:
We’ve seen way to much of this particular crap the last year or so.
brownian #100
I vividly remember that case and my disgust and the shitstorm that followed.
What I did not remember or know at the time or know at all until tonight is that, I know the judge.
I have been in his house, he has been in my house, we have shared beer and food and fun.
I haven’t had any contact with him in about decade but I feel like I’ve been kicked in the guts.
I want to exorcise my house and every place he has ever been.
Thanks Caine.
Good to see you roaming about!
@35:
If one were to say James Anderson, Jessica Ahlquist and Matthew Shepard, I wonder what the responses of these people would be…
Kalliope @61:
You just opened my eyes up to something I never thought about. Thank you so much!
::TMI warning (gay sex)?::
Now that you’ve mentioned this, it makes me wonder what other kinds of descendants of misogyny exist. I don’t know how many times I’ve met a guy in a bar and they immediately think I’m a top. As if the muscular guy just *has* to be the one who does the penetrating. He couldn’t possibly be the one who gets penetrated.
I also think about how long it took me to accept to myself that there was nothing wrong being the bottom. I wonder if I felt that way because of some splashback of misogyny (ie maybe some part of me thought being a bottom was more feminine and I’m a guy, so there’s no way I can be feminine at all…as if there’s something *wrong* with being a woman). Whatever the reason, I’m glad I don’t think like that any longer. **
**A buddy of mine was explaining to a female friend of his that I’m gay (apparently she had a crush on me, but didn’t know). I overheard the conversation and dropped “yeah, sometimes I like to get fucked” right in the middle and walked off (they laughed for a while). This was at my bar (with only other friends around).
“Misandry” is an expression like “anti-Christian bigotry” which basically boils down to “anything other than Christian privilege and bigotry against non-Christians”. By analogy “misandry” basically covers everything that doesn’t discriminate against women. It’s like beating up antother person and complaining that she keeps punching her face against your fists.
Askyroth:
I took her to a local clinic (this was in Truckee) and the doctor asked me a few probing questions about whether I was her primary caretaker, then immediately ordered a hospital check for herpes and proceed to ask my daughter a set of very leading questions about inappropriate touching with a freaking gleam in her eye.
I am so sorry that happened to you and your daughter. That shit is fucked up.
I’m not the slightest bit surprised that men with a vision of the world as a place where the genders are equal go about categorizing any harm done to fellow males for gender related reasons as misandry. Of course they see complaints about misogyny and go piecing together what is actually happening as if it’s exactly the same as when they complain: you’re not getting your immediate desires handed to you for free but if you yell about it some embarrassed person will give you a sucker to make up for the slight inconvenience that has befallen you.
To correcting this reflex misconception- I don’t even know where to begin. It’s horrible enough trying to get just one person to start to see past their own inexperience but the endless tide of them washing in all of the time…
It’s like the creationists but more so.
Chigau:
Oh, what a terrible shock this must have been. It’s a sad reminder that people you can happily be social with can have much nastiness below the surface.
I’m aware that people can be involuntarily stimulated to orgasm, even during the most severe of rapes, and I…
…fuck it. It’s little facts like that that make me realise the AWESOME luck and privilege I have. I’ve never been there. I’ve never been in this situation, and I can only intellectually grasp the horror of it, the ramifications of it.
I don’t say it enough but the courage of survivors of this type of experience in sharing those experiences and feelings, and in dealing with the continual odious denialism from certain quarters, is beyond impressive. And I know that sounds patronising, because no one is on some pedestal or feels courageous (Well, probably. What the fuck do I know about it).
I just had to post a “thank you” and “fuck I’m overawed by you people sometimes” because I don’t think anyone can say it, or read it, enough.
Louis
And Caine…yet again…it’s more than good to see you here. STAY DAMMIT!
Louis
Sassy, unpleasable harpy, is not a negative stereotype to you? What planet do you live on?
Indeed. And that’s all it applies to. And frankly, dudes almost always get less racist shit than women of the same race, because dudes qua dudes are not oppressed, while women are, and intersection is fun*. But their racist shit is still different in some ways, and again, you can’t call the stuff that only hits dudes misogyny.
*No it isn’t.
My great-aunt divorced her drunken, abandoning, beating piece of shit husband in the 1950s. My (extremely matrifocal) family stood behind her about 120%, and as far as I know, if she got any static at all from anybody else about being divorced, it was somewhat along the lines of “So what did you marry that asshole for in the first place?”
My aunt divorced her husband because he was a real unconstructed male chauvinist pig (as we used to say back in those days) — he liked having a working wife because of the money she brought in, but couldn’t be bothered to lift a finger to help out, expected dinner hot on the table when he got home (despite the fact that they both worked full time), and considered the money he earned to be “his money,” to do with as he pleased, but the money she earned to be “their money,” which was spent on household items and childcare mostly, with him also begrudging her the money she needed to spend to look presentable enough to work in a bank (in the early 1980s).
My dad, on the other hand, was raised in the 1950s by two working parents who expected him to be able to cook, clean, and take care of the stuff they couldn’t, and then went into the Air Force, where he was expected to keep his quarters and his uniform tidy and in good repair. He can cook, clean better than I can, sew, and is generally better at running a household than I am. Which is why I totally do not believe things like “men just don’t see dirt.” Shit, dudes and dudettes, my dad sees dirt I don’t even see.
No wonder I grew up feminist…
Pardon my ignorance, but I’ve never understood the “top OR bottom” thing: why people physically capable of easily performing both roles, without prosthetic aids, would exclusively select one or the other. Can you offer any insight into that? O.o
@Azkyroth #129
The way that one of my gay friends explained it to me is that just because a man is gay doesn’t necessarily mean that he likes to be penetrated. You could argue that straight men are both capable of penetrating and being penetrated, yet not all straight men would enjoy it. Capability and orientation doesn’t necessarily mean enjoyment.
That makes sense as a personal preference, but as a subcultural institution it still seems confusing.
Azky, if you’re not gay, maybe you ought to not pontificate on what gay men “should” or “should not” do.
@132
How is asking questions and admitting ignorance and confusion a bad thing? I would think that that is something to be encouraged.Additionally, I don’t see anywhere that Azkyroth said anything about what gay men should or shouldn’t do. If I’m ignorant of a topic, and someone near me has shown that they are willing to talk about said topic, what’s wrong in asking them questions? Isn’t that how we become less ignorant, and more appreciative of others’ points of view?
Right, Clark. I don’t see how implying that the sexual practices of a despised sexual minority are weird or illogical could possibly come off as offensive.
Where did Azkyroth say or imply anything about “weird” or “illogical”? He said that he was ignorant and confused. What should he have done?
Of course, going up to a random gay guy, and asking “why do some prefer to be tops and why do some prefer to be bottoms?” would be offensive, but asking someone who is already talking about it?
I expressed curiosity about a subject on which I acknowledged a personal lack of information. There was no judgment attached or implied. What is WRONG with you?
You deemed it “confusing” (Tip: it’s not at all for those who matter in the equation), and more or less demanding that queers explain their confuuuuusing sex practices to you is pretty inappropriate. Especially when there’s a long history of clueless straight people who do this. I haven’t met many queer folks who haven’t been asked or had it assumed who’s “the man” in their partnership by random fucking hets.
I didn’t “demand” anything. I asked if anyone could offer some insight. I meant to express that I personally found it confusing and that’s the reasonable reading of what I actually said. I don’t see anything inappropriate about this.
I take it this is supposed to explain why it’s unacceptable for me to expressing (insert synonym for “confusion” you feel has less judgmental connotations here) as to why some people WOULD have one “The Man” in a partnership that contains two men, but I’m not seeing the connection.
I also don’t recall publicly identifying as straight…
Of course you don’t see anything inappropriate about it. Otherwise you’d have had the sense not to do it.
I don’t recall you identifying as not straight, but I haven’t been around as long as you have. As it stands, it looks indistinguishable from typical homophobic prying and assumptions.
Despite my having distinguished it. Um, glad we cleared that up.
(So, people are supposed to “educate themselves,” but never ask certain questions. Let me guess, “how exactly is this ‘self-educating’ supposed to happen?” is another one of them?)
Waaah some more, dude. Sorry you get so very offended at being told you’re sounding exactly like a typical homophobe, unhelpful attempts to claim otherwise aside.
Here’s how: instead of “Golly gee, that makes no sense! Tell me how you strange homos work!”, maybe do some reading. Maybe not assume that every out person exists for your edification, and is just dying to tell you how they fuck.
Some reading of…what exactly?
Sweet cream of baby jesus on toast, Azky, you have absolutely no self-awareness at all, do you? Why don’t you fucking think before you say something about people who, as a category, take more shit than you do on a daily basis?
Congrats, you hit the very first item on this list.
OH FOR FUCK’S SAKE IT’S CALLED GOOGLE YOU WHINY LAZY SELF-ABSORBED SHITBASKET.