Since I’m in New York hanging out with the Amazing Randi, I thought I’d feature a video of that spry fellow.
(Episode CCCXVIII: Death throes of the terrorsquid!)
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
cm’s changeable moniker
Does that mean, you’ll be our guide?
Sounds like a great time! PZ, when you have a moment, could you please slap the hell out of Porco Dio, who is deliberately derailing threads, currently http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/04/20/more-fun-from-the-gac/ and http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/04/21/why-i-am-an-atheist-rajesh-shenoy/ ?
Good: my three-legged cat was just up on a 7-foot-high shelf in the cat run, spread out on his back, with the sun on his belly. :D
Bad: I dropped and broke one of my glass spiral earrings today. They were from Mr Kristinc for my birthday and I only had them a week :(
Kristinc:
Aaaaaw, sweet. Sorry about the earring, that sucks.
“spry”: a lovely and underused word.
Incidentally, we never did get around to talking about classes in maths, did we?
I’m glad to see Randi paying autism facilitators their due derision. We studied facilitators briefly in an undergraduate course I was lucky to be able to take: Pseudo Science and the Paranormal. I get so fucking pissed at alt-med practitioners and any woo-pushers who give people a false sense of hope. Whether the specific facilitator is knowingly dishonest or buys into it themselves, they are doing real harm.
Obvorbis:
On hearing that I am an atheist, a friend of an ex gf said “what? But he seems so spiritual!”
My response to gf was “what did she expect? Horns?”
I enjoy hearing Randi announce his Pigasus Awards! A list of previous winners can be found here.
Huh, yes. Porco Dio is a horrible little troll; and he seems to have a hate-on for Australia for some reason. (Which I suspect actually has nothing to do with racism.)
cicely, Jadehawk’s® Totally Biodegradable Confetti® should spray out of all your USB ports soon.
When is Rhinebeck again? SVP is Oct. 17th – 20th, and I haven’t looked into field trips yet. Only just found out that the (first) circular is already available…
…Anyway, I think it’s awesome that there are ads for monoclonal antibodies on FB.
…then they fear you. Then you win.
Mwahaaah.
:-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
Two of them, says that article.
There aren’t enough desks for my head.
?
Difference: narwhals live in the cold parts of the ocean. I have serious trouble with the external application of cold water to the temperature-sensitive parts of the body, which is most of them.
…In Rhinebeck??? If so, did you completely forget last year? Maybe you should, ironically, lay off the booze :-)
♥
(…Not that I could play with the font color on FtB, but this one’s black on purpose.)
It is!
Yes yes yes yes yesssssssssss!!! *shivering with excitement & glee*
Oh yes. Just today I found lots of coffee cups and other dishes in the trash. I took the most beautiful ones home, washed them (a great opportunity to wash dishes at all), and, well, I couldn’t sell them as new, but throwing them away is just stupid.
Then I successfully cooked carrot/onion soup. I had to squeeze this into this comment somewhere. :-)
I haven’t laughed that hard in weeks, maybe months.
I just with there were some commas in there. There’s not a single PhysioProffe-fucken one; some sentences are hard to understand that way.
*twitch*
<insert link to TV Tropes article Share The Male Pain here>
…no doubt from French tranche, “slice”.
…okaaaaay…
Also, duckies did not evolve from filthy monkey men.
====================
I sense a contradiction. I’m a militant non-smoker, and I’m not a sadist…
There’s both black pepper and hot paprika in the house, however. (The curry is gringo weaksauce.)
Alethea:
He completely destroyed Rajesh Shenoy’s thread, so much for an excited, happy atheist.
Caine’s duckies are just too damn cute. There, I said it.
I caught up on the last thread, but I’ve been drinking beer, so I forgot. And it’s too hard to review on my phone. I’m pretty sure Louis said some awesome shit about food though. So good on you, Louis.
While I applaud the fact that you cooked something you like, carrots are gross.
In other news, no one’s feet should ever be this dirty. What the fuck am I doing that produces this effect?
In other other news, one of my favorite things about my town is getting a beer from a future rocket scientist. Obviously I have to drink more. How else is he going to pay his way through school? It’s For Science!
(I don’t, of course, contest the statement that Australia has a problem with racism. Just Porco’s use of it to troll.)
No need to go all literalist theology on it. I’m flexible. </double entendre>
That’s precious.
I’m actually not allowed to cook for people who don’t handle spice well. Apparently I’ve developed such a stupid tolerance that I make everyone else miserable. </why do we hurt the ones we love?!>
Hey, cool. It’s the Amazing Randi, who helped his partner lie about his stolen identity for years. Fraud is fraud is fraud, and both Randi and his partner should go to jail. Period.
Jules:
:D To be fair, the Duckies are Urban Threadses, or at least the artist who drew them. I’m just…putting my own spin on ’em.
I love Urban Threads, but they are making me a bit crazed, there are so many things I want to do. I have a list going into the next life. Heh. The latest three things on the ever growing list are Think It Make It, Let’s Do Science and Ghostly.
I’ll bite. Link?
richardnorris, we’ve had enough Cupcakes shitting all over the place today. This is our lounge, so be a dear and fuck off. Ta.
It was actually a junior high school production of Willy Wonka. (cast members were 13 – 15 years old)
(if I had had that kind of self-confidence at that age …)
They were so fucking adorable, I’m still smiling.
and Willy was played by a boy, Charlie was played by a girl.
@Caine
Oups sorry.
Ing, no worries. My temper is on a short leash tonight. I doubt little Richard will be back, but if he is, chomp away.
Watching DS9 on someone’s advice. I just spit coffee out my nose at the line “Our species are just so different!”
Ing, you can read about the James Randi situation here.
Ok, the Let’s Do Science (from Caine’s linky above) must be a Camp Pharyngula badge. I insist. Hard.
Reads like an attempt at a green card dodge.
Jules:
Seconded.
Hi, I’m betelgeux, Pharyngula lurker for nearly a year. I finally registered several months ago, and I’ve posted a few comments, but I figured I’d drop in here at TET and introduce myself to the Horde.
I was raised Catholic, but I’ve been a very proud atheist (and very vocal antitheist) since I was 13, and I’ve never looked back. I’m an aspiring astrophysicist and avid amateur astronomer who loves to read (and argue) about anything involving atheism, science, and politics.
I discovered Pharyngula about a year ago, and I’ve been a daily visitor ever since then. As soon as I noticed the author was a “godless liberal”, I knew I’d fit in. I’ve studied PharyngulaWiki’s list of the many memes, so I’m not totally ignorant of the Ways of the Pharyngula Commentariat.
If you’re wondering about the ‘nym, It’s the archaic spelling of “Betelgeuse”, a red supergiant star in Orion. You can still find the old spelling in aged astronomy textbooks or books by Patrick Moore.
Quick question: Is TZT supposed to be a sort of reservation for trolls? I’ve noticed some commenters telling trolls to go back to the TZT, so I assumed it was a safe haven for xian trolls.
Thanks. I think I’ll have a great time here at Pharyngula.
*nodding solemnly*
Very true, very true; such a Horse-ish thing to do.
–
It’s certainly gonna be broken if I’m singing it!
(Old joke: I can carry a tune in a bucket…provided that it’s a big enough bucket.)
–
Caine, Zombie Duckie is squee-worthy in its own, (very) peculiar way.
–
kristinc, hurray! on finding usable sunscreen.
–
At the risk of provoking a Deepening of Rifts, Horses are eeeeevil to the very depths of their Hell-spawned souls…and Ponies are their Infiltration and Disinformation operatives. Their favorite tactic, in common with preachers, is to lure the kiddies in when they’re young and trusting, and fill their heads heads with lies and deceits. Holy Roller Summer Camp, Equestrian lessons…both straight roads to despair and destruction.
–
OMG! Vampire Duckie is so adorable!
–
–
kristinc, sorry about your busted earring. It’s fear of mishaps like that that keep me from buying any of the really beyooteeful glass beads I’ve seen.
–
Caught up! And sleepy! ‘Night, all.
–
how did we miss this… animal gender role cartoons from Humon (of Scandinavia and the World fame)
http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/04/14/animal-gender-roles-cartoons-humon/
Particularly the cuttlefish one:
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.comicsalliance.com/media/2012/04/sneakycuttlefishbyhumon-d4uw62o.jpg
@betelgeux
Yay, welcome! I am also aspiring to be an astronomer. It is a pretty awesome subject. Unlike biology. :P
betelgeux
Welcome.
Want some
rumcheap beer?(why is the rum always gone?)
@chigau
Because it is better than beer?… I don’t know.
Hmm, I’ve just received a third request for my Emerging Viruses lecture in as many weeks. I;m starting to think that High School microbiology teachers enjoy scaring the shit out of their students.
A. R
I think high schools teachers will do almost anything to wipe the smug im-so-cool off the brats’ faces.
@chigau:
Because you didn’t lay in quite enough on your last supply run?
Yes, I’m really just here as an enabler. It’s my role. And I’m comfortable with it.
(/Tips hat.)
ibyea
AJ Milne
hmm
Interesting concepts.
Worth pondering.
Rum ? the horses drank the rum ?
Wait until Mrs Ramsbotham hears!
Hi, betelgeux! Have some *brownies*!
*****
Vampire Duckie is the cutest ever!
*****
Survived the social. Came to a few conclusions:
1. I don’t understand either a) dancing or b) drinking.
2. I need to clue my friends in on the whole I-actually-like-girls-much-more-than-guys situation, stat.
3. Street signs, how the fuck do they work? I went for a nice middle-of-the-night drive around the more confusing parts of my city. Several times.
Hi betelgeux & welcome. Pull up a piece of carpet.
I’m something of an amateur astronomer, (very amateur!) and not even aspiring to be an astrophysicist but enjoy the subject. Hope you enjoy the commentariat!
Cheers
Nutmeg
I hope you more than survived.
Have
some ruma smoothie!A nice way to spend a Sunday morning: watching some of the many videos of Rock Beyond Belief to be found here:
http://lefthemispheres.blogspot.ca/2012/04/rock-beyond-belief.html
… for example.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k1ITu-BEiXI
Good morning
Prerequisite:
Havanna Club
There are other good Cuban rums, but they don’t export them
Dark rum goes straight, light rum goes into cocktails. Mojito is always welcome, but I also like fruity stuff.
Some weeks ago we hosted a cocktail party with the kids: crushed ice, many fruit juices, sirups, food colouring and rum and gin for us.
It was lots of fun, just mixing stuff as it fancied us. Something I really liked involved lots of fresh ginger, pineapple juice, gin and some grenadine.
kristinc
One of the things I got from reading “Cinderella ate my daughter” was that things are way worse on your side of the pond. At least I haven’t seen anybody host “makeover parties” for preschoolers here.
crafts
I can’t knit to save my life. I can crochet but it takes soooooo much time. Same with hand embroidery. I can do it, I’ve made some nice pieces, but it takes so much forever. Sewing and my most beloved embroidery machine are for me. Sometimes I also do other crafts, but nothing has taken hold so far.
What I’d really like to try some day is working with glass.
That can mean two things, right?
;)
My mum can knit like hell, but I took more after grandma who has the sewing machine. Oh, wait, now I know why my mum hates that hobby of mine…
But I remember that some of my earliest joys were playing with the button box and the only use I ever found for Barbie was making dresses for them.
Guys and knitting:
Didn’t somebody here once link to a story about ladies who teach prison inmates how to knit and crochet and didn’t they note that violence went down?
Caine
Second that.
And doing a quick sum of the money I’ve left with them is scary. But on the other hand, I hardly buy anywhere else these days…
I can make them if you want to.
5$ a piece for the next Horde member in trouble plus shipping
Welcome to TET, betelgeux
Dear Horde, fellow baby-eaters and Destroyers of (imaginary) Worlds, herewith craving your collective wisdom and seeking your counsel. The Horde between them probably have more knowledge and experience of different fields than any other source of advice anywhere, so –
Apologies in advance for the rather teal-coloured deer: WARNING – PARENTAL SCREED AND BLATANT PLEAS FOR BRAINS
I asked about something closely related to this on TET once before (about a year ago, I think) and got some very kind words of advice (though that time I forgot to say upfront that I’m in the UK, which will have a bearing, so – um, I’m in the UK).
I know little or nothing about the reality of living and working in either the sciences or music.
Younger Spawn has a disability (complete with Statement of Special Educational Needs, for those familiar with the UK system) mainly to do with severe and complex language delay and disorder. Anyway, after years of heroic effort on Spawn’s part is expected to do well at GCSE (UK system – exams at the end of compulsory schooling, normally taken around age 16) and speech sounds normal; but (no surprises) social communication is a minefield and teenage Spawn is dealing (very courageously I think, though I may be biased) with social isolation.
Now, Younger Spawn shows some promise as a musician (according to teachers and exam results and performance record, I hasten to add – not just according to me, being a biased doting parent and all that). YS will be doing Maths, Physics and Music when it comes time for A-Levels (UK system again … that’s the final exams at the end of school, when you get to about age 18, and the ones you need in order to go on to Further or Higher Education).
YS wants to aim at getting in to a conservatoire. Not impossible that this could happen, but of course by no means certain. I want to spend some time this summer looking (and getting YS to look) into other options too – way, way before actual applications start in just over a year or so from now.
What other avenues should a musician who likes science, but who will probably always struggle with networking and social contact, explore? The only thing that really comes to my mind is to learn about sound engineering or acoustics, but I am notoriously rubbish at seeing any further than the end of my nose so – hope you don’t mind my asking for thoughts.
/END PARENTAL SCREED
Thank you. Very, very much.
We’re going to hear Spawn play this afternoon ::happy:: but I’ll gratefully respond to any responses later.
opposablethumbs:
A few questions:
What kind of science does YS find most interesting? (You mentioned “doing Maths, Physics and Music when it comes time for A-Levels” so maybe it’s physics, but I guess that could be narrowed down too.)
What are YS’s favorite kinds of music? Which instrument(s) or is it voice, and any writing or arranging? Any special interest in theory, music history, musicology, etc.?
Opposablethumbs,
Spawn is science minded and musically talented? What’s wrong with a “normal” university? As opposed to a conservatoire.
If you send the spawn down the “standard” route into a decent university, especially a Russell Group uni, you’ll find that the musical element will be well catered for outside of a main course at least.
There are great universities, other than Oxbridge, that are…how shall I put this diplomatically…famous for privately educated children of wealthy families who didn’t get into Oxbridge at 18…okay I failed.
So if you think the spawn stands a chance at either Oxford or Cambridge, go for it, the structure of the student’s day is really conducive to extracurricular activity. And, as you intimate, your spawn is an ubermusician, this will stand them in excellent stead in the Oxbridge application. I’d say Cambridge is the choice for physical science, especially for those musically gifted. But then I am biased! Oh, and you can apply for musical scholarships (IIRC) and the spawn will get a room with a piano in…varies from college to college.
So why did I mention unis other than Oxbridge? Because great universities like Bristol, Durham, St Andrews are famously good universities with similarly excellent reputations for encouraging extracurricular musicality. This is a legacy of their “catering to private school kids”. To be fair, most universities do this, but I’ve had friends at all these universities who are excellent musicians.
So long story short: get spawn into a good uni on a science course (lots of exciting physics going on at the moment) and {ahem} “encourage” said spawn to pursue extracurricular music as opposed to extracurricular drinking and gutter occupation! ;-)
At least this way the spawn will have two options: physicist (famously badly paid) and musician (famously badly paid unless you’re a rock star)!
Wait…this is bad advice isn’t it?
Louis
Yes it is. You shouldn’t assume studying science is the better choice for everyone. Even if he or she doesn’t go to a conservatory but a “normal” university, there is still the option of majoring in music not just pursuing it as an extra- or co-curricular activity.
Science – possibly cosmology, but it’s really more of a general enjoyment of the amazingness of science at this point – reads New Scientist for fun, prefers to watch Horizon or Bang Goes the Theory or Inside Nature’s Giants or anything by Attenborough or Brian Cox rather than most other things on TV (just by way of a vague example).
He actually enjoys Chem and Biol as well, but working with words is such an issue that we’ve encouraged him to go where the UK syllabus demands least essay-writing. (Insane way to pick, I know, but it’s a real problem in spite of what little support a Statement of SEN brings with it).
Music – Jazz. Especially on the clarinet (though also bass clarinet, soprano sax and tenor sax; has two Grade 8s – clarinet and sax – one with a Distinction; is going to re-take the other one next year to try and raise it from a mere pass to a Distinction too). Has started getting into writing and arranging, though for the moment theory, music history etc. is of interest mainly for the purpose of helping to write I think. Also plays some piano, also helps with writing/arranging.
Also enjoys other genres, plays in orchestras, successfully auditioned for the Junior (Saturday) school at a conservatoire, successfully auditioned for a national jazz project … (well the UK is a small country :-) )
Sorry, that last of mine was a response to cr’s first post – will go back up and read the ones I missed, now!
To repeat what Louis said:
Which is more important to Young Spawn, music or science? If he’s overwhelming interested in music with science as a hobby, then you should be looking at conservatoires. However if he’s more interested in science with music (what flavor of music?) being secondary, then you and he should consider universities.
I don’t know about British universities, but here in the US&A many if not most universities have music as a legitimate field of study, either as a major (resulting in a degree in music) or as a minor (taking classes in music but getting a degree in something else).
Well I think Younger Spawn is good – but to get into Oxbridge/Russell Group you have to be a bit better than just good.
I’m kind of thinking, what could I advise him to try if he’s not Oxbridge/Russell material. He’ll do all right at GCSE, but he won’t get 11 A-stars!
He can’t write essays to save his life … well, maybe to save his life but he really struggles to express anything in words, especially on paper (well, in pixels or whatever). And he’s got pretty bad social communication problems (no problem talking teenager-to-adult, but severe problems talking peer-to-peer).
Consciousness Rzor,
I don’t think I assumed that at all. I read Opposablethumbs as asking for opinions about varying options. I don’t disagree that pursuing music as a primary option is a good idea, but it’s one I have no experience of. Pursuing a career in science whilst having a number of extracurricular activities (a minor one being music) is.
Louis
Hi ‘Tis,
it’s definitely music, first last and everywhere in between. That’s what he loves.
I’m just scared that because he’ll never be able to network well, he may struggle even more than most at actually working in music. We have no financial back-up to offer him, so I worry about how he might cope (or not) if music is all he knows … even if he’s not too shabby at it, that doesn’t mean he’ll ever be good enough to compensate for the lack of coping skills. So I feel I ought to be all responsible and parental and try to think of other things as well.
I do want to at least think about advising him to study (say) something physics-related while keeping music going, (hi Louis!), but I don’t know if he’d get on to a straight physics course (e.g. min. entry requirements, 3 As at A-level – he might not make that, I don’t know at this stage). So I also wonder about more vocational physics-related qualifications too (like tech stuff (about which I know (less than) nothing)).
PS if I suddenly disappear, it’s because we’re off to a gig – please excuse the rudeness, and I’ll definitely check back later!
Opposablethumbs,
Oxbridge maybe (although there is a debate here…). Russell group? Nah! You have to have the grades. Period.
Although, I went to university ~20 years ago, so I temper all advice with the fact that I am wantonly out of date and have ~15 years to go before this is a problem for my son!
You might even find that his ability to talk well teen to adult is an advantage in university interviews etc. If he comes across as more mature than his drinking and fornicating peers that cannot hurt him.
Anecdote: A guy I was at school with had similar (sounding) difficulties. He was terrible at communicating with anyone verbally, so perhaps had it worse than your son, and had real personal problems. He was however bright as hell and got into Cambridge to do electronics if memory serves.
My point there is never write a chance off. If he gets 3 As at A-level (or whatever the required course grades are), then with his musical gifts, which sound phenomenal, most if not all universities will snap him up. I wouldn’t be looking at top universities with an apologetic eye at all given those talents.
Look at Bristol for Music for example, and Physics. They require BBC and ABB respectively. So it really depends on what you think your son will do at A-Level, which to be fair is years away. As you no doubt already know, kids do a lot of growing in those two years.
BTW I picked Bristol because I know it has high standards, so that’s probably top end of the scale.
Louis
I’m very grateful for the input. (sorry, this is rushed, we’re heading off in about 10 mins now)
But I think maybe I haven’t expressed the problems enough.
Think significantly disabled wrt communication: communication teen-to-adult is possible because adults (un)consciously help out; peer-to-peer not really happening!
This has a knock-on for independent living; not impossible, but harder.
Ditto, coping with organising own study time etc.
Would also be most grateful for ideas re less academic avenues!
{{many hugs and thanks for thoughts}}
back later
It doesn’t make any real difference as to what field he goes into, he’ll have the same problems in music and physics. I understand the situation. When he was growing up you kept hoping that between therapy and maturation he’d get some social abilities. Now that he’s almost an adult, you’re afraid he’s not going to be able to cope with the uncaring world.
My daughter, who has never been on a date with a man or a woman in her 36 years, also has poor social skills. She lives with her mother and me and works as a mid-level accountant in a job I was able to get for her. I really do know what you’re going through.
There will be a fair amount of reading and writing regardless of which area of music one might study, but especially when studying it historically or culturally. Music is really all just numbers, but theorists and musicologists can still dish out lots of prose and invent crazy terminology, so I could see how even then it might pose a difficulty. Those focusing on performance have to deal with it least of all. As far as math and science goes, just to give some more examples besides acoustics and engineering, there are a lot of interesting musical things one could do in computer science and the cognitive sciences: programming, research, and the like.
Giliell:
I hadn’t really thought of it that way… The occasion that caused me most embarrassment was when I went to tea at the parents™ before we were married… I put the tablecloth on the table inside out.
MIL did develop quite severe arthritis so her later work did provide more clues, but her earlier work took close examination to find the weaves that she used in place or coarser knots for finishing off.
Yeah, ‘Tis, you do.
We’re still at an earlier time wrt Younger Spawn, things are still fluid and changing to some extent, but I want to look at all kinds of possible ways he might go and we’ve learned not to assume we know how things will pan out. He might be able to cope with some of the demands of the uncaring world, but he also might not; abilities might counterbalance disabilities, and they also might not …
Off now! backson
Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BTW, sorry, Louis. I misread you. And I’m sort of cranky today.
Consciousness Razor,
No worries! I am eminently misreadable!* ;-)
Louis
* By which I mean: COMMOONIKAYSHUN SKILZ I DUZ NOT HAZ THEM!
Opposablethumbs,
I can’t advise on universities in the uk the way Louis can, but as for alternative career choice, I might suggest investigating either electronic engineering or mechanical engineering. Maths & physics are both essential for those careers, and an understanding of music would (perhaps surprisingly to those outside of the professions) be of use as well. Understanding of vibrations, frequency responses & concepts such as harmonics is certainly beneficial.
Not having great socialisation skills, whilst it will make it difficult in any endeavour where contact with other people is involved, in engineering, there is a surprisingly high number of people that could be classified that way. His better ability with dealing with adults will compensate, I’m sure.
Also the pay’s usually not too shabby, even if it’s not rock star remuneration.
Just thoughts for some alternatives. If its music he loves, hopefully thats where he will end up.
WRT the spawn and music: as has been said above, it really depends on the major interest of the spawn in question. In my day, we had to pick arts or science in grammar school and there was zero crossover. I picked sciences, since that was where I saw my career, and music became something I did spare time. I have friends who went down the other path and now teach music, conduct orchestras and play in groups and bands of all kinds. Of course, there is nothing stopping one from doing both and if spawn has any kind of deep affinity for music there are weekend schools that have good reputations, Leeds for example.
Time to go an fly the flag at the craft fair that Mrs S has organised… mainly to see friend whose string quartet is providing the background music this afternoon (ex band partner).
See you later.
Opposablethumbs,
My apologies for not understanding. I am an eternal optimist, at least when it comes to other people! ;-)
What about the Open University? It’s excellent, something that can be done around other things and at one’s own pace. I know it’s another academic option, but it’s a good one. It could easily be done around a musician’s life and they take a lot of account for other factors.
I’m afraid I’m bloody useless at non-academic options because I don’t know them very well.
Louis
Just read the next post opposablethumbs.
If less academic is better (ie, non university), spawn could still consider a career in electronics, as technician, if you think he would struggle with uni. Less so in the mechanical field, as apprenticeships can be hit & miss. & success is going to depend on the quality of the industrial placements.
Of the 8 electronics techs in my POW, they range from quiet but socialised(4), to highly introverted & very poor socialisation skills(4). They still achieve success in their jobs, as much because they are good at what they do, and because they are in an environment where skill is respected & lack of communication skill isn’t all that uncommon.
Good luck for him, whatever her chooses to do.
‘Tis:
True, but like all the arts, if a student is serious serious about studying music, they would be poorly served by picking any ol’ liberal arts university, you know?
It’s like, you can take acting classes at just about any school, but they ain’t Julliard.
I say, let younger spawn choose and if music is the way to go, help YS get into the best music school possible.
(Sorry, I’m a little biased here. I have several friends who went to Crane School Of Music and at one friend who studied music at Union College. Union, despite being a pretty good school, just doesn’t have the musical chops to really provide a good education.)
thoughts on music careers: I personally don’t know much, but have you thought of asking JT of WWJTD (who’s a music theory major) and/or Crommunist (who’s a classical performer)? I just have this feeling that finding an understanding mentor, at *whichever* school, may be more important at this stage than the social deficits directly. A mentor IS one of those contacts for social networking, and can help mediate awkward interactions with their own reputation and good word. (“Xe’s bad at talking to people but don’t worry about that, xe’s still an excellent performer.”)
opposablethumbs
You could take a look at the UCAS website, and do a search for music related degrees. There seem to be quite a few going by this link:
http://search.ucas.com/cgi-bin/hsrun/search/search/StateId/QhCXQog1w6-Ifrp8u2c5BYY3TGQY–VSLa/HAHTpage/search.HsKeywordSearch.whereNext?query=455&word=MUSIC
I’m pretty sure somewhere amongst that lot there is something that will suit your son. Given the difficulties he faces, it might also be a good idea to get in touch with those who run courses that of interest well before it is time to apply. My experience is that the course tutor will only too happy to talk to you and your son about the suitability of the course.
Josh,
Here’s the best I could find (and I did a fair bit of searching). I use it on a phone (Motorola Triumph), since it’s Android OS I assume it’ll be compatible.
I will third (fourth, fifth) the request for a link to jump to the bottom.
—
opposablethumbs,
Find some local musicians to talk with, to get an idea of what it means to be a musician full-time. It takes a lot of self-promotion to do well.
Well not just any ol’ school, but there are lots of great university music programs which aren’t a conservatory or an arts school (in the U.S., I don’t know much about the U.K.). Even the mediocre programs are good for those wanting to be performers, teachers, or any number of other things; if perhaps you don’t plan on being a rock star or the next Beethoven. There are simply not enough conservatories to educate them all, even if that were the ideal way to get a music degree, which I doubt anyway, since I think a liberal arts education is important and in some ways the conservatories are doing a lot of people a disservice. Then there are awful programs which really are a waste of time and money, because they can’t give the students a proper music education, or a general education, or both.
cr:
Oh sure. The one I linked to (Crane School of Music) is a part of the larger SUNY* Potsdam.
I guess my point was not to assume that just because a decent liberal arts school has a music program, that it’s going to be worth your time or money.
*State University of New York
Re Android/scrolling: Using Opera Mobile, when you flick the screen to do a quick scroll, a little arrow appears floating near the right pointing whichever way you were scrolling. Touch that while it’s still visible and it zips you all the way to the bottom or top.
Definitely right about that, and even if it has a good music program, it’s still not the necessarily the best fit. You need to consider where the best professors are for your instrument (or voice, composition, etc.), not necessarily the best programs in general. So, for example if you play jazz flute, find a good jazz program which also has good flute professors. Or if you write electronic music, or want to study ethnomusicology, or whatever it is, find out which schools are best for that in music and in the other related disciplines.
No donut dream last night.
But I had a donut for breakfast.
Unless I am in an annoyingly realistic dream right now. And the dream included a donut.
I like spicy foods. Hot enought to tingle and bring out a bit of sweat on the forehead, but not so hot that I can’t taste it.
Some years back, Wife and I were at a really nice oriental grocery in Rockville. I had been doing some pseudo-curries and wanted a more authentic taste. So I got a tub (8 ounces) of red curry paste.
The first, and last, time I used it, I put in 1 tablespoon and the sauce was inedibly hot. So I everything in a colander and rinsed the sauce off and the meat and veggies were still too hot to eat. That stuff was scary.
We wrapped the tub in multiple layers of plastic, marked it as a hazardous material, and disposed of it quietly.
The explosion at the dump a week later was pure coincidence.
=======
betelgeux:
Welcome.
Watch our for the peas.
The trifecta!
borkquote, Tpyos and a dropped word.
[Kermit arms]Yeaeaeaeeaaaaeee!
I went to my niece’s first communion last night. They attend a very liberal catholic church. As I understand it, the priest supports equal marriage, feeding the poor, and other such radical ideas. They use the word “god” where other churches use masculine pronouns. They came across as a decent bunch of people despite their insistence on believing in a deity.
I was a bit pleasantly surprised, even so, when they did the “prayers of the community” bit, and the first person to offer a prayer made a sarcastic comment about radical feminists and suggested sending brain scans of men and women to the Vatican to show the pope that both men and women can make thinking contributions to the church.
A catholic dissing the pope during mass? Probably not what the Vatican was hoping for when they scolded the nuns for being radical feminists.
I saw some mention of beer upthread, so I thought I would mention the good news I heard the other night. There is a brewery setting up next to one of the pubs in the Village where I live.
Excellent news!
Ogvorbis, #78,
{Gasp}
Your powers are MIGHTY!
Louis
Matt, #80,
I suppose there must be some compensation for living in Wales.
(Obvious joke is obvious)
Louis
Which way are they gross? Boiled onions are slimy, so I put the soup in a blender anyway.
(Am eating the second half right now. With, erm, this kind of croûtons.)
Also, before blending, the liquid of that soup is itself delicious. Yesterday, there was too much of it for blending, so I had a whole plate of it. :-9 It’s not carrot juice by any stretch, it’s mostly flavored by the onion and the spices (plenty of curry, some pepper – still not hot) and contains the oil the onions were fried in.
Are your shoes dissolving? I have a pair that blackens my socks.
:-)
:-o Awesome.
I particularly like the look on the face of the seahorse father.
The tamarin babies are exceedingly cute, though they look alarmingly like Pikachu…
That’s because you’re sane. *vehement nodding*
I just hope they’ll understand that, as opposed to, say, concluding “you just haven’t found the right guy yet” and redoubling their efforts to find him.
The bad news is, they will be brewing a cheap knockoff of Coors Light.
Ogvorbis #77
A tablespoon of curry paste? I assume you were cooking portions for about four people. If you were cooking for forty then a tbsp would be appropriate. I use half a teaspoon of the slightly milder green curry paste when cooking for three and the wife still dumps large amounts of chutney* in the curry.
*I make my own chutney. Recipe available upon request.
:-O
No halfway authentic curry can be eaten by the tablespoon. French name-brand supermarket curry powders included – I once bought one that was very good but so hot I was only able to use it in pitifully small quantities, I actually ended up using curcuma and ginger and only spiced those spices with a bit of the curry; I took it to Vienna at the first opportunity and left it to my dad. It was the least yellow curry I’ve seen so far.
The annoying thing about supermarket curries is you usually can’t taste them before buying them, so you don’t know if they’re hot. That said, bland curries have the advantage that you can use them by the spoonful to get lots of flavor at no cost in pain.
:-D
Wow.
Thankfully I don’t think that nightmare will come true.
The person who is setting up the brewery is actually moving his existing operation. I have tried some of his beers and very nice they are too.
Or for that matter by the teaspoon, which I somehow had in mind! I used barely visible amounts of the good one for a pan (2 large portions) of rice and feared almost every time that I had put too much in.
Yeah. I was cooking for four. And had, oobviously, no clue.
Now, I buy the spices (our Wegmans stocks Indian spices by the bag) and toast and grind my own powders but I have never gotten up the guts to try a paste again. This way, I can also vary the curry — more fenugreek, less turmeric, whatever.
Bland curry powders also become much more flavorful if they are lightly toasted in a dry wok before use.
So SOMEBODY BROKE INTO MY APARTMENT this morning.IN BROAD DAYLIGHT! WHILE I WAS ASLEEP.
I was awakened my my door slamming shut at 7:57 this morning. I had left my window open a crack because we’ve actually had temps as low as 65F at night, which is pretty cool for this time of year. My window much wider. I figured someone came in, saw me sleeping, and bolted.
Nothing was missing but a back of cigarettes. My laptop and some electronics gear was right there, undisturbed. So what do I do? walk around the corner to get some smokes. I start to pay and find that my debit card is MISSING,! everything else in the wallet is still there. I had no cash in it.
So I call the bank to cancel the card and find that SOMEONE HAD ATTEMPTED TO USE THE CARD JUST FIVE MINUTES AFTER I HEARD MY DOOR SLAM. The charge was declined. Dude didn’t even know that he could have done it as “credit”.
So, I went back to the store to get a look at the guy on video. I didn’t recognize him, but the clerk sorta knows him.
I’m waiting for the police to show up so I can file a report. In the meantime I am keeping an eye out for this dude.
to summarize: SOMEONE ENTERED MY WINDOW IN BROAD DAYLIGHT AND SPENT A LONG DAMN TIME IN MY APARTMENT LOOKING FOR MY WALLET JUST A FEW FEET AWAY FROM MY BED AND STOLE MY ATM CARD AND A PACK OF SMOKES.
And shit, the drug dealer who used to live here that I was buddies with has moved out. He would have taken care of things quite effectively. Alas, I am stuck with just the cops.
I just can’t do curries or chilies. When I was in Thailand last year, it was only the presence and knowing watchful eye of my local partner that prevented my untimely demise, and not just once.
Off to watch “Nikita”.
Penfold: I’m all excited about the Olive Garden we are getting. Maybe it’s time to move.
Even better is to toast whole spices before grinding them. Just toast until you start to smell them. Be careful doing this with dried chillies though, the fumes can be noxious!
Francis B: Sux!
Apropos of nothing: my 5 year-old is reconstructing the battle of the Alamo with her Littlest Pet Shop…pets, I guess. The lion is Sam Houston. He has just ridden off to get help.
Also, no puppies are to re-enact the role of Texans, because she can’t bear the thought of a puppy slaughtered.
That’s good. I hope the beer ‘translates’ to the new brewery.
Francisco:
That’s scary.
And I’m glad that he only stole the ATM card and not the whole wallet (trying to recreate the non-monetary contents of a wallet is not fun).
rorschach:
I understand. I know some people for whom a mild salsa is too much heat.
Tonight, however, Wife and I are going to wallow in spicy: carne asada steak (really thin cut steak, pan fried with a little salt, pepper, lime and chili), and fresh quacamole (complete with fresh tomato and fresh jalapeno). And corn chips.
Olive Garden has some pretty good food but their pasta portions are off by a factor of four or five.
Definately. I do that when I am mixing my own. But even the cheap prepackaged powders improve with a little dry heat.
Well, why not? My sisters and I reconstructed the battle of Bull Run/First Manassas using Britains plastic animals.
Also, Santa Ana is Being reprised by her favorite pink lizard. And also, she has informed us that this time, the Texans win. I don’t believe her because the numbers are just not on their side.
Davy Crockett and Jim Bowie are both turtles….maybe this explains why they didn’t run.
Brother O: The OG portions are way too big. I always get soup and salad.
Same here.
Their zuppa Toscana is pretty good.
…Er, yeah, “curcuma” is turmeric. Such unpredictable variations between languages sometimes throw me off.
~:-| What store?
G, not Q.
My curry paste recipe.
The Spices
1 tsp whole Cumin
1 tsp whole Coriander Seeds
1/2 tsp whole Fenugreek.
1/2 tsp whole Fennel Seeds
1/2 tsp ground Turmeric.
1/2 tsp whole Black Peppercorns
2 whole Clovers
2cm (approx) whole Cinnamon
2 whole Dried Chillies (Birdseye)
1 tsp ground Paprika
Roast whole spices in a dry pan until they start to smell fragrant. Allow to cool and ground to fine powder. Add the pre-ground spices.
The Paste
Finely slice two large onions and slowly fry in ghee until they begin to caramelise. Add in four large crushed cloves of garlic and 2cm of finely chopped fresh ginger. Cook for 5 mins. Add two large tomatoes, seeds removed (or you can use tinned and cook until the liquid from the tomatoes has evaporated. Allow to cook, place in a blender with the spice mix and blend until smooth.
The Curry.
Add the paste to a pan with ghee and cook until the paste thickens and becomes darker. Add your meat or veg and mix well, cooking for about 5 mins. Add some coconut milk (or just water) and cook until tender.
Interesting.
+ 1
Lowercase t, when I’m already at it. It’s pretty much limited to English to use an uppercase letter not just for names but also for adjectives derived from names.
Read my ‘nym.
Yeah, that was just yet another tpyo from the brain of the idiot.
What unit is that? Only centimetres come to my mind, and that can’t be it.
Anyway, I’m sure putting cinnamon in is a good idea! :-9
No, it is centimeters. Cinnamon, when sold hold, comes in sticks of the rolled up bark. The is not much variation between sticks in diameter, so length is the unit I have always seen used.
Santa Ana is now weeping apologetically, and has promised the Texans that he will never be mean to them again.
The whole recipe is supposed to be very variable.
You can change the spices to suit, and make it hotter or milder. The quantities I gave will make a mild to medium curry.
I often add coriander stalks to the paste, and the leaves near the end of cooking the curry. You can leave out the coconut milk, and use water to make it lighter, or use water and add cream near the end for a different version.
HI there
opposablethumbs
OK, I can’t add much help in the specific areas, but an idea I had was whether it’s possible for him to do some practise in the different jobs that might suit him. I know they’re pretty common in Germany and they might help to decide which way to take.
Francisco
Damn, that’s scary.
It’s not only a burglar but also a stupid one which is probably the most dangerous kind around :(
curry paste
I’ve taken to make my own since neither Mr nor the kids tolerate the level of spice that I like and I don’t get enough taste into the dish by the time they scream “too hot*”.
I basically put the spices, chilis, garlic and onion into a blender with some nice oil and then store in a sealed container in the fridge. Instant goodness.
*Fun fact: once in Edinburgh I had to ask the waitress what they meant by the “hot roastbeef sandwich”.
Yes, it is it. Stick cinnamon, just break off the size you need.
The Texans have rejected Santa Ana’s overtures and have incarcerated him. Sam Houston is menacing him from outside his Lego prison.
Now of course that should be both hot and hot, assuming an appropriate amount of horseradish is used.
Aren’t genes funny. Horseradish I can eat gallons of, but a trace of a hot chili and my mouth feels like the bombing of Dresden.
Antiochus Epiphanes
Does this mean that the Mexicans will allow the Texicans to hold slaves? Because that was the major issue causing the Texicans to revolt against the Mexicans.
Oh, joy and happiness unforeseen! scifi is back.
Where is it? My coat isn’t nearly sniny enough?
I’m the other way around – I’ve worked my way up to three and four-star chili-based food, but anything from the mustard family may as well be tear gas. Trace amounts only if that.
It does admittedly do a great job in clearing congested sinuses.
TZT
Betelgeux, welcome to the Shark Tank. Pull up a chair, have a drink.
David M:
I guess. Why do people choose to consume substances that will lower their inhibitions and thus greatly increase the chances of saying something stupid or acting like an idiot? And this is done in public, with strangers, for fun? And then they move their bodies to music in some kind of mass mating display? After about midnight at a party, I often feel like I’m observing an alien species.
Oh, non-existent God, me too! I think there’s only one close-ish friend who might react that way. She’ll come around after some education.
Actually, I expect to have a (comparatively) very easy time of it. My older brother is gay and has been out for almost 15 years, and my parents are supportive of him. I’m pretty sure they know/suspect about me. (I’m actually fairly stereotypical when I’m not trying to act straight.) And my social circle is composed mostly of biologists, so it doesn’t include a lot of conservative Christians. The only hard part will be that I’m a bit of a late bloomer.
It makes a big difference to know that people here understand and are supportive. So *thanks* and *hugs* and *cake* to all of you.
Francisco Bacopa,
I’m sorry you got burgled, but I can hardly begin to unpack just how much I find wrong with this paragraph.
Wikipedia on genderneutral pronouns doesn’t list “xe” and “hir” together but ascribes them to the Unitarian Universalists and Kate Bornstein, respectively.
I still hate them, but the tide stops for
no mannoöne.Betelgeux: Welcome.
Francisco Bacopa: Commiserations, that is a shitty situations, but I also have to second Sili. I feel the emotion, don’t worry. Think it, have a bong and a blintz, and relax.
Louis
Sili:
Yes, well, I hate, loathe and despise your utterly moronic use of
“noöne” when writing in English. You know it should be no one, however, you insist on being a dipshit, so you can stop whining about how other people write now.
Not the Littlest Pet Shop Texans. They don’t have much of an economy to speak of, slave-based or otherwise, far as I can tell. They seem mostly motivated by the construction of a little building of Legos that needs to be defended.
Anyway, that game has been abandoned. She is now taunting her grandmother. The kid is a born trash-talker.
Well. there seem to be several economies mostly based on war…
Re: horseradish
Can’t Stand It
But give me the small Radischen and I’ll eat a whole bunch of them.
Also love Wasabi
Dunno. Most people I know are not noticeably more idiotic when drinking. Although, I guess television/experience might give a different impression. I am completely capable of acting like a moron stone-cold sober, and I prefer to drink alone.
I have been told that these are problematic.
Legos cause war?
I can see that.
Boy and Girl used to go at it like GOP primary candidates over certain specific Legos.
Point.
I’ll try to turn down the Svenning, I guess.
Dear question-beggar, why ever not ?
I just returned from OG where I picked up zuppa toscana for my GirlChild. And I found the Horde talking about zuppa toscana. It’s going to be a good day.
Brother O: It is not easy for me to understand the thought processes that go into these things…she has a very big vocabulary for her age, and lots of stuff already in her head, but I don’t think she is very logical.
Social anxiety? The knowledge that in any given social situation, I am highly likely to say something stupid and act like an idiot anyway, so I might as well care less when I do?
Someone upthread or prior thread mentioned reading Let’s Pretend This Never Happened, and I realized I don’t have the only spouse in the world who has to deal with someone who struggles to hold a socially appropriate conversation in group settings.
Hey, everyone:
Filed the police report.
When I said that the drug dealer used to take care of things, what I meant was that he knew everybody and could quickly solve any crime. He was well aware that the last thing he wanted on this block was a lot of cops coming by. He would usually just wait on a perp’s doorstep and invite himself into their house and just have a “chat”. No violence, at least that I know of.
Seriously, the guy kept the peace. It was in his interests to keep the peace.
Now that the cops have come and taken the report, I’m going to do something I haven’t done in a long time. Write a check! No cash, no debit; What else can I do?
I can only vouch for scientists; but consistently, over many years in several different labs, they were DEFINITELY more idiotic when drinking, and that apparently was the purpose of it. They got silly, laughed at every random thing each other said, fell all over each other, and afterwards in the lab were *significantly* friendlier and more forgiving towards each other for weeks. (Again, my failure to ‘socialize’ properly almost got me fired here.)
What bugs me is that fans at every kind of con I’ve been to – gaming, furry, robotics, comics – have been at least that friendly towards each other as soon as they meet, no alcohol required. I tend to think mundanes need alcohol to drop their instinctive polite-lying shields, or something.
It had slipped my mind, yes.
completely off topic, but has anyone else noticed that some trolls tend to fixate on a particular commenter? Right now, scifi is, to hir credit, on the TZT thread and, no matter how many commenteers rip into hir idiocy, xe is only addressing Nerd of Redhead. Anyway, has anyone else noticed that some trolls tend to fixate on a particular commenteer, no matter what anyone else writes?
Ogvorbis, they all tend to do that. Nerd was one of the first to pounce on scifi the idiot, hence the fixation.
I take it you made it through the party without any trouble, Nutmeg? No need of tensor bandages, fake vomiting, etc.?
Not really. The stare and sip is something I tend to do when I’m feeling very low, but not necessarily sick.
——————————————-
LOL, I think cartoon showing the hyena gender roles is what every misogynist’s nightmare looks like. I think the cutest ones are the seahorse cartoon and the discus fish, although the tamarin ranks a close second.
——————————————-
Curry: I’ve only met one curry that I thought would do me in so far. Sadly no homemade curry for me – Mom hates it, so I have to settle for curry powder or red pepper flakes if I want to spice up a soup or something. We both like hot salsa, thankfully. But really, a whole tablespoon? Unless I were cooking for four people or more, yeow!
Hi! I kind of introduced myself, on the other thread, “We Need More Honest Advertising”, but long story short I just recently decided to get more involved in the threads….guess I’m not the only one :) Hi betelgeux.
“Why do people choose to consume substances that will lower their inhibitions and thus greatly increase the chances of saying something stupid or acting like an idiot? And this is done in public, with strangers, for fun?”
Because then they have an excuse to act ridiculous…’blame it on the alcohol’ I understand alcohol consumption, but not drug abuse.
C.A.T., welcome in.
Consumption and abuse are not the same thing. Lots of people abuse alcohol, you know. Lots of people consume [a] drug[s], no abuse involved.
opposable thumbs, hope you’re able to support your YS to make a career/education choice which will truly suit him. We are more than halfway through the process of launching our numerous spawn, and it just doesn’t get any easier. I am always so torn between my natural instinct to tell them “follow your bliss!” and my more realistic understanding that sometimes the happiest lives are built around surprisingly mundane careers which provide the financial security to allow for the pursuit of artistic interests for the sheer joy of them.
I suggest that you encourage your son to work very hard at the math and science he enjoys, as well as to continue in his music. My son does not have the same challenges, but he does share your son’s interests. He is pursuing a degree in electrical/software engineering and, like someone else pointed out, there is a lot of overlap with musical knowledge and interests.
The more he has studied, the more excited he has also become about maths and physics. I think university really opens up a young person’s mind to possibilities which may not be apparent in the high school years. Meanwhile, he has brought all of his music gear to college with him (he plays several instruments) and has formed informal jam groups – they are going to play some gigs this summer. The study in electronics and programming has helped his music – he has built his own mixing boards and now can record and lay down tracks to create his own mixed recordings with himself playing all the instruments, vocal harmonies etc -.
The idea is that, since it can be difficult to make a living in music (and many musicians spend more time than they ever imagined doing “music” they hate to pay the bills), there is much to recommend pursuing a more stable career in maths/science/engineering while enjoying the kind of music one loves in spare time. If both can be done at university, all the better, of course.
This advice would be completely turned around, however, if the young person in question was clearly a musical prodigy or at least so immensely talented that not to pursue a career in music would be a travesty. I think that level of musical gift is extremely rare, however. My actual advice to my son was “follow your bliss” because I saw him as hugely talented and felt I should encourage him in the thing he loved. Luckily, he was more pragmatic than his mother, and was happy to enter a course of study in his favorite school subjects – soon narrowing it down to his very favorites (math and physics) and then looking into careers which require those.
People I grew up with whose parents pushed them into a career which suited their abilities (but not necessarily their passions in youth), initially resented it, but later were among the happiest people in my acquaintance. It turns out that a stable job that suits your abilities is a great thing: it gives you a reliable income and a daily framework within which you can build a full life. One of my musical friends who became a doctor, for example, now plays in the local symphony orchestra (mostly comprised of performers who have other non-musica jobs). He says it is the best of both worlds: he has a well-paying career doing useful work, and he enjoys his musical outlet because he has the luxury of choosing musical projects that excite him.
So, if I were advising a young person today, my advice would be: train in a field where job prospects are good – and for which you have ability and reasonable interest – while keeping up your musical/artistic interest either as a secondary course of study or on your own if that is not possible.
PTI:
Well, I made it, anyway. I had to threaten to dissect a couple of my friends if they introduced me to any rugby players, and I had to spend a fair bit of time standing awkwardly on the dance floor. I also escaped to the washroom and the parking lot a couple of times. But it wasn’t as excruciating as I thought it might be.
***
Re: alcohol consumption
I can kind of understand drinking alone to relax, but group drinking baffles me. But then again, I’m a control freak who would never enjoy doing something that makes me more vulnerable around others. This is almost certain to be a problem for me at some point.
Pteryxx,
Hey, we all have different ways to have fun, right? I enjoy having a couple of beers and loosening up a little. It’s kind of like asking why anyone finds any activity fun– it’s either your bag or it isn’t.
Hell, I miss being able to have a couple of beers. Someone needs to have one for me tonight. Something delicious. :(
Nutmeg:
It doesn’t have to be. I’ve had the same issue, lifelong. You would not believe how long I can nurse a single beer/drink. ;)
Audley:
I would, but Pancreas the Parade Pisser says no. I can haz a toke or two for you, though.
Caine: Thanks. I’m not really that concerned about my non-drinking status specifically; anyone who asks about it gets told that my family tree is full of alcoholics (true) and then they don’t bother me. It’s more my general tendency to not trust people – but if I’m interpreting correctly, you get that.
It encourages me to know that you’re in a successful long-term relationship and have a cute bunch of critters. I don’t need or want the conventional two kids and a white picket fence, but I would like a career, a partner, and some pets.
Nutmeg:
Oh yes, I do. Imma suspicious bastard*, always have been.
All those things are possible, just remember that. As far as a partner, I never concerned myself with that (while indulging in as much sex as I wanted) until it came to Mister. We were friends for a number of years first. For me, that was key.
Career? Good thing I’m an artist and can work for myself. :D Best outside job? Running an art room. I’m a good boss, not so good at being an employee.
Critters? The monster dogs came about due to my control/trust issues. I like having monster dogs with attitude. Gives me more control. Rats? Rats unlock my heart, completely. Brilliant heretics. Cats? Furry pillows.
*Quoting Sam Vimes here.
Caine:
:D
Two would be best– one for me and one for my passenger*.
*Can you tell that I’m starting to feel huge?
Audley:
Aaaaw. You aren’t, not yet. That didn’t help…
Why didn’t you say this?
Because if you have the ability and the interest, you can get jobs in music or art, and believe it or not, you can at the very same time keep up your interest in science as a sort of hobby. Other people make it impossible though. They get it in their heads that “success” means going to Julliard/Eastman or being a rock star, making the big bucks or making huge waves, and that only a few rare, gifted individuals ever achieve that. Anything else commits you to a lifetime of poverty or at least isn’t stable. They know this because: anecdote. But what is success for a scientist? Do you have to go the best schools and be a superstar who makes lots of very important, influential discoveries? Or is success just being good at what you do and liking the work, no matter how much people may sneer at your paycheck, or your tenure status, or how many times you’ve published in Nature, or whatever-the-fuck?
Pteryxx: Also a scientist. I guess YMMV.
Shoot, Nutmeg, I was hoping threats of dissection weren’t on the menu. Well, if it works . . . at least you escaped a few times for air.
If it helps, last time I danced in public was at my brother’s wedding, I think, and I felt kind of awkward. Didn’t help that the shoes I wore were giving me heinous blisters. Really, ballroom dancing is the only type of dance I could do. Headbanging doesn’t count as dancing (right?). Anything else, and I feel like Kermit with two left feet.
————————————–
Audley: Soon you will know the joy of having complete strangers trying to rub your belly in public. /sarcasm
Christ, what’s up with that anyway? Or did I ask this on a previous incarnation already?
—————————————
Oh and about the drinking and control: Like Caine, I tend to nurse a drink. I can’t knock them back quickly, even shots, no matter how smooth the drink goes down. Partly due to not wanting to get blind drunk, and partly because I think I lack the capacity to hold so much booze and still pile it on.
Thanks, Caine.
Then by alcohol consumption I meant consumption and/or abuse, and by drug abuse I meant any type of recreational drug use.
WARNING: TEAL DEER AHEAD. I promise I will not make a habit of this – please forgive me this once!
.
Well we’re back, the Sunday afternoon gig (in a crowded pub) was a lot of fun and Younger Spawn’s contribution was well received which is always a bit of a boost (fun fact: the drummer, a pretty elderly bloke, used to play with Charlie Parker apparently). Thank you very hugely much for all the thoughts and advice; very helpful and seriously appreciated!
.
Apologies for the HUGE tl;dr but I really want to thank people for some excellent and thoughtful comments –
.
‘Tis, I just have to say it again – you really do know exactly what I’m thinking and what we’re going through. For years we’ve been torn between being thrilled and impressed with just how much he’s achieved, how much more he’s capable of than he used to be – and being desperately worried and unhappy about just how much he may never achieve, how much more difficult some things are for him than they are for those who are neuronormal. It’s all triumph and despair, both genuine, at the same time (which can be a bit confusing sometimes …).
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consciousness razor, thank you for the pointer towards computer science and cognitive sciences. Will investigate. And your point about different courses is well taken: we won’t assume all programmes would be equally right. UK courses generally do tend to specialise more and sooner than US ones, though – at least that’s my impression – so it may not be very broad regardless of where he goes. But thank you especially for the point about trying to match for both the right instrument and programme; again I would not have thought of that.
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Catnip, what you said about electronic engineering and mechanical engineering is extremely interesting for us. I would never have thought about the relevance that a grasp of music could have. And yes, it could well be a good thing if he could work in a field where his difficulties might mark him out a bit less, where it’s not unusual for people to be not-the-greatest at social communication! (as for pay, well I don’t think he dreams of being a rock star – more like he dreams of being able to spend all his days playing and improvising and performing with a few like-minded jazz fiends :-) ). Electronics technician could potentially be just perfect for him, (especially if it was in some way connected to Things To Do With Music, some way some how :-D ). Thank you for the good luck wishes!
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Serendipitydawg, yes to an interest in weekend schools (YS currently does a great junior one, which he loves). I know that most – maybe even almost all? – musicians do some teaching, and that would be great – just not sure if his interpersonal skills would be good enough. Hope the craft fair and ex band partner’s string quartet went well!
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Louis, I’m an eternal optimist too – well, sometimes! Would be happy with the OU, but suspect it may take more self-discipline and self-organising than he could manage – at the moment, at least. But we are looking ahead, so that could develop a bit over the next couple of years.
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Hi Dr. Audley! I fluctuate like mad between being all “yes, music is what he loves, let him go for it” and then having dark doubts about “well is he good enough … there are lots of kids who are all the best in their own little groups and whose parents all think they’re great – what if at would-be-pro level he’s only fair rather than brilliant, he doesn’t have the personal skills to make up for it”. Totally agree about schools, though – if he goes that way at all, he’d better try for somewhere he’ll be really happy all his life that he went there (one of his teacher is from the US and talks about how great it is at Berklee … but what they don’t realise is that YS wouldn’t survive five minutes on his own abroad, even if we could raise that kind of money (which is out of the question)).
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Pteryxx, yes re the importance of a mentor, you see the problem exactly. I guess any music student would need someone, and one with poor social skills would need someone more than most – someone to help bridge gaps like you were saying could make all the difference at the stage where you’re just starting out.
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Hi Matt, we did have a rummage around the UCAS site which is a good starting point – I’m more worried about not knowing where to find info about non- or less- academic routes, though, at the moment, and not sure if he could cope with an academic music course. Good point about contacting them individually, though – especially as he is Statemented. I was assuming they’d all think he must be a poor bet as a student if he lets his parents do any of that spadework, but maybe they’d be more understanding in the case of someone with a disability. (ps wow seriously good-sounding curry recipe there. Phew)
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Therrin, thanks – we are talking to musicians about it a bit – it’s precisely the self-promotion aspect, which is vital, that might make it impossible for him in practice :-(
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Hey Og, glad the dreams are behaving themselves! There are some double major courses available, yes, and in theory that would be the perfect solution for him – but I think in practice YS might struggle to keep up with the workload. Not ruling anything out at this stage (and physics and music would be a lovely combination) but just being realistic, if that’s too hard for him we would need to have some less academic ideas to think about too.
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Giliell, I’ve been telling anyone who would listen for years that the UK ought to learn from German wrt vocational/job-centred education and all things related. Not that I actually know much about it, but I’ve always heard that Germany is great for real apprenticeships and taking them seriously – unlike the UK which is crap at it. Alas, there is little or nothing of that kind that I know of (though he did manage to spend 2 weeks in a recording studio last year).
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niftyatheist, I am stealing you and keeping you for the next few years for constant consultation. This is exactly what I am flipping back and forth about right now, and I keep convincing myself one way and then the other. If I can’t steal you I’m going to steal your post. consciousness razor, I take your point – and I don’t expect either of my Spawn (either the first-year biochemistry undergrad or the maybe-perhaps-might-be musician) to be rock stars in their respective careers. But isn’t it more realistic to find steady work at a lower level as (say) an electronics technician than as a musician (always assuming the poor social skills/zero networking skills)?
Good evening
re:alcohol
Touchy subject for me.
My rules are:
-I don’t drink when I’m alone. I seriously have control issues about anything when I’m alone. I never learned to be my own person so, it’s all or nothing I guess.
-I don’t drink because I haz a sad. I think that’s a good rule for everybody. Things don’t get better via drink and if you make a habit of it it can become a problem
-I try not to get really drunk. That’s just because I don’t like it.
C.A.T.:
First, would you mind if I decapitalized your nym and used Cat?
Okay, so what you meant to say was:
?
It’s helpful, if you’re going to hang out here, to say what you mean and watch your language. As for your not grokking any type of drug use, I’ll just run with the assumption that you’re young. I’m not, and I missed out (thankfully) on the cookie cutter Pollyanna generations.
I don’t really see why you’d differentiate so much between alcohol and other drugs. They do the same things.
Giliell:
Yes, it would be. Only natural in your case. I think your rules are good ones. Everyone pretty much has to tailor rules around certain substances. A lot depends not only on your particular life experiences but on whether or not you’re an addictive personality. Also, the why of doing things is important, which you noted.
One thing I didn’t note is that it’s important to scout them out to see if you’ll be able to relate to the professors on a personal level as well. This sounds superficial, but you have to keep in mind that lots of time is spent in private lessons, one-on-one, every semester, for the whole shebang. A professor can be a very good performer or teacher, but also an asshole or unable to relate well with particular students because of personality issues.
Caine:
Nope, I don’t mind being addressed that way and and I’ll try to more clearly express what I mean from now on. Now that I think I see the distinction more clearly….
I don’t see any problem with alcohol consumption. If by abuse, you mean addiction or a state of dependence, then it isn’t any different from drug abuse (since alcohol is by definition a drug). So consumption is o.k. Abuse is not. Sorry if this contradicts my last statement; take this opinion instead.
I’m not against prescription drugs used for legitimate medical purposes, but don’t condone recreational drugs use.
I’m 20, and I’m sick of hearing my fellow college students talk about downing Adderall so that they can perform better in school.
Opposablethumbs,
I understand your parental worry. Part of what colors my response is that my parents didn’t let me study what I wanted– theater/acting– so I settled for something I could do well, but just didn’t have the passion for (history and lit).
If YS isn’t sure what to do for school, but all means, give lots of help! But I would caution against pushing YS into what you think would be the best fit.
Caine:
No, I’m not huge yet, just getting to the point where all of my clothes are too tight. I can’t wait to be large and in charge– muumuus here I come!
Nutmeg: I used to be like you, totally. I don’t think I got real drunk until I was 25, and it wasn’t until 30 or so that I started actually desiring to go out with friends and get ingest mass quantities (once in a great while). Nowadays, I see it as sort of a social lubricant, which I often need. I feel sort of ambivalent about that idea, but not too bad, because I’m still pretty conscious of my limit and I never exceed it. I’ve never been so drunk as to black out or do anything that I would regret, so I stay safe and happy. A large component of it is to have a crowd that one can trust and feel comfortable around, and to be able to drink in an environment free of competition and humiliation and that sort of bullshit. This is the sort of thing that tends to come well after college age though (I never figured out, are you an undergrad?).
Ouch, I never imagined that low velocity car collisions would hurt. Now I have sore shoulders and a slight headache. :(
Anyways, that accident caused the tire to flatten some minutes later. My mom and I got stuck at the side of a highway for around 2 hours without a phone because we both forgot to carry it with us. Good thing my dad had the sense to look for us. Seriously, that has got to be the worst luck I have ever had.
Cat:
Ah. Well, we definitely have wildly different perspectives and life experiences. I’m 54, btw.
RE: Alcohol vs. “Drugs”: Actually, a few illegal drugs are considered to be safer and less addictive than alcohol. Personally, I don’t use drugs, but I have no issue with people who choose to. Abuse, just like abuse of alcohol, is something else entirely.
What America needs is to drop this paranoia about alcohol and other drugs and be able to ease kids into it like they do in Europe so that drinking isn’t this crazy pressure cooker situation for less socially adept youths like me.
The only time I was ever kicked out of a bar was when I drank on a mostly empty stomach and a sad (or perhaps, a frustrate). Fortunately, all I did was fall asleep at one of the tables. I’m eternally grateful to one of my friends whose (I think) first impression of me was talking me down from a crying jag outside a bar.
Caine:
I guess that’s a part of what makes atheist boards interesting; we’re united perhaps only by a disbelief in god.
A.R.:
I’m a tad tripped up. Does the definition of abuse include misuse of drugs?
Rey Fox:
That would be nice, but I doubt I’ll live to see the day. I hope I will. People were a helluva lot more laidback in the 70s, when I was in my teens. The moronic “war on drugs” crap has got to go, it does so much damage.
When I was young, I was allowed a cordial glass (teeny tiny) of wine with supper. When I got into my teens, I wasn’t lectured about drinking, but was told that if I was going to drink, to do it at home, where I wouldn’t kill myself. I never was much of a drinker at all.
Rey Fox:
Yeah, maybe. My friend group is pretty good, but my mind is pretty full of all that bullshit, and I doubt that’s going to change any time soon.
I don’t think drinking is ever going to be an option for me, and I’m okay with that. With the heritability of alcoholism being around 50% (citation), I would have a fairly high chance of having problems, and that’s not even taking environmental factors into account.
I’m a M.Sc. student. I’m 23 and most of my friends are a couple years older. But I’m a fairly young 23. :)
My parents did that to me. Wrecked my socialization. While other kids were getting shitfaced because mom and dad weren’t around, I was drinking a good beer because it tasted good. Just as I did at home.
I was also told that if I did drink away from home, and had more than 2 beers or 1 shot of hard liquor, to call for a ride and there would be no discussion until the following day.
Take a look at any professional orchestra, band, choral group, musical theater group, or what-have-you. Do you think every one of those musicians needs good social skills in order to keep things going, or do you think the group promotes itself and finds gigs for itself? Every one of them needs to be able to play at a certain level to keep a job with the group, and needs enough social skills to cooperate and work effectively together, but if your spawn is a good performer, that is not one of his or her problems whatever the others may be. Then there’s the issue of assuming people who get a music degree all have to get a job playing music, because that’s all a music degree is good for, and therefore that they’re constantly interacting with lots of people, which makes it a bad choice for those who have problems with that sort of thing. None of that is the case.
Completely off topic:
I haven’t had a soda for months. Anyway, I’m drinking a Coke and holy shit, it actually has a flavor besides sweet!
CAT, I feel like you’ve got my perspective a couple of years ago going on. :P It’s just chemicals, it’s all just chemicals. The problem with the Adderall thing isn’t the Adderall, it’s the pressure that these people are apparently under to perform.
—
Nutmeg, I’m completely with you on all the things. I don’t get drinking, I don’t get dancing, and this:
cracked me up forever. One of these conversations where I was not understanding about dancing, someone tried to convince me that dancing was communication and I was like “Okay, but all I see anyone communicating is either ‘I want to have sex with you now’ or ‘I want to simulate sex with you now but not actually have it.’ So I’m not sure why anyone who doesn’t need to find a new sex partner or want to simulate sex in public would engage in this communication.” I’m slightly more savvy now and realize that there is other communication going on, I just can’t understand it because I don’t speak the language. I still don’t, which makes me has a sad when thinking about bellydance and how much I like it.
—
Speaking of which, bellydance went REALLY WELL last week! My instructor recognized me from last quarter and said hi excitedly, which made me blush and not be able to make eye contact with her for the rest of the time, but was still really nice. I also had a slightly easier time looking at the mirrors than before, which turns out to be a pretty useful thing to do, because I was doing all sorts of little things wrong that I didn’t know about and just needed to adjust. And the few things we did that my body didn’t understand, I was able to practice them into acceptability (not goodness) shortly thereafter.
Cat:
If you mean misuse, as in “Jimmy misuses Adderall” then use that word. Drug (including alcohol) abuse generally refers to a destructive addiction.
CC:
Yay! for you. Sounds like it’s going fantastically well. Knew you could do it.
Last night, for the first time since January 2, I had a Cherry Coke. And it was so sweet that I couldn’t taste it. I’ve gotten so used to the taste of the diet version that now the sweet overwhelms the taste.
CC:
YES! That’s a big part of what skeeves me out about dancing. If you ever figure out what they’re trying to say, let me know.
The other part of it is that I’m not very coordinated, I have terrible spatial relations skills, and I was a chubby asthmatic kid with glasses and bad ankles. So pretty much any kind of physical activity that I ever did in front of people resulted in mockery, to the point that I can’t stand the feeling of anyone looking at my body. (Thank you, gym class, for giving me yet another set of hangups.) Contemplating dancing in public gives me the same feeling as contemplating doing a layup in front of the whole class.
Oggie:
Oh man, I cannot stand diet. Blech.
I’ve cut a lot of sugar out of my diet– no more soda, candy, Girl Scout cookies, half a teaspoon of sugar in my coffee in the morning, etc. I don’t even bake that often anymore.
I’m still amazed that cola has flavor.
Some time last week I had a diet something, possibly a a Pepsi, perhaps a root beer. It was so bitter that I couldn’t take more than one sip. Aspartame tastes bitter to me.
Cassandra,
Perhaps! But my problem is not so much with the whole idea of chemicals as it is with the unfair advantage it gives those who misuse them.
The pressure put on students, your right, is the real issue. I hadn’t really thought too much about it, but very true.
Alcohol – I found out during an academic mixer once years ago that two glasses of wine is really my limit. Somewhere in the middle of the third I realize I’m talking waaaay too much and starting to get waaay too genial. I pushed that a bit this weekend, in fact, and looked a little like a lush when I did it (the server came over to the table and I asked for a glass, then realized I still had some left in the (second) glass I had been carrying around during appetizers beforehand, and she just said “that’s what the other glass is for” and poured me another). But then I never even touched that third glass beyond the first sip. Just didn’t want any more. I should be glad that I’m reasonably self-limiting on something, at least. Just don’t ask me about the triple-layer chocolate cake that we had for dessert…
Well, up to a point. They all change your state of mind, but I’d say in very different directions, and with very different levels of danger. Alcohol being among the worst in both ways. Any moderately heavy drinker routinely takes more than 10% of the median fatal dose; I don’t think that’s true of many others: injectable opiates, barbiturates, and maybe GHB and GBL – I don’t know what a fatal dose of those would be. (Amusingly, my dad once offered me some of his prescription barbiturates – he got a lot of pain in his feet at night from diabetic neuropathy – when I was having trouble sleeping. They were the only class of drug I’d promised myself at 17 that I’d never take, having been slightly acquainted with a barb addict.)
Francois Hollande, democratic socialist, wins first round of votes in France: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2012/04/20124224291255596.html
Can this be? Will a European country finally have a leader that doesn’t subscribe to the austerity BS? I just hope he doesn’t turn out to be some corrupt jerk.
KG:
Yeah, I saw too much of what downers did, I never went near any of them and I grew up at a time when just about every other person was walking around with a pocketful of ludes or rainbows.
Gotcha. I’m 31 going on 23.
Yeah, dancing. I got my start in dancing in the third wave ska scene in the 90s, so I tend to jump around and jig a lot on the dance floor. I’m pretty hopeless when it comes to dancing with a partner, and I think I’ve missed a couple of flirts because of it.
opposable thumbs – I’ll be on call! :) Thanks for the smile! It’s nice to be able to offer something to a group this accomplished.
consciousness razer:
I could have said it in that order, but I just didn’t. If you read my whole post, you will see that my point was that my very humble view is to encourage offspring to follow their strongest suit, but if, all things considered, there is no one area where the youngster is clearly and hugely stronger, then perhaps it would be wise to train in a field where job prospects are known to be very good – especially when the youngster has known disabilities which will already make his path rougher.
I hear you about negative assumptions about the arts – and greedy expectations that “success” must be linked to a high financial yield. I think you jumped to conclusions, however, in reading those assumptions into my post.
I agree with you that it should not be as difficult as it is to make a career in the arts if that is what a person would like to do. But wishing that the situation were different is not going to make it so. It is a damn hard life for the majority of hopeful performance artists, a little less so for those who decide to teach. Neither of these options is ideal for many people, especially not for people who face communication challenges already.
I do not agree with your implication that working for pittance is at least being true to your art and is somehow worthier and better than doing things as I suggested above. Why do you imply that only the artist who makes art/music hir full time career – no matter how lowly the pay nor how much that choice might condemn hir to a lifetime of artistic frustration – is deserving of respect? You seem to be implying that if a person chooses an easier way to earn a living and devotes the rest of hir time to hir avocation – the art/music – that this person is less deserving of your admiration and/or respect. Why is this?
ETA YS of opposable thumbs appears to have strengths in math and science as well as music, which opens several paths, IMO.
Also curry – I must copy recipe!
I don’t know what I am doing wrong, though. I bought red curry paste at the supermarket (maybe there’s my problem right there) and put at least two tablespoons into a slow cooked curry (about 8 servings) and it is never hot enough. I am not being coy, either – it truly is not hot at all. I throw in red pepper flakes etc, but it just isn’t. It cannot be the same stuff Ogvorbis used. Now, I wonder if I went to an Asian market (have to go to the city, but could be worth it!) would a whole new world open up? :D
I bought red curry paste at the supermarket (maybe there’s my problem right there)
most likely. Typically the crap they sell at supermarkets in the US is pretty weak sauce.
Go to your nearest Asian/Thai deli and grab some red curry paste there.
there should be lots of other varieties there as well, if you want to try green/yellow alternatives.
I’m 31 going on 23.
I sometimes think I’m 47 going on 15.
growing up is hard, damnit.
it would be wise to train in a field where job prospects are known to be very good
McDonalds employee?
seriously though, the problem with this (from personal experience) is that there ARE no career prospects that are stable any more. You’re simply best off encouraging youngsters to pursue the things that strike their fancy the most, and also encourage them to not focus solely on that one thing.
shoot for the stars, and settle for the moon if not. With 7 billion people in the world, there is just no way to figure out where your kids will end up in the end.
Three items of recent personal good news:
1) The final conference of the international project I’ve been heading, and suffering constant anxiety over for the past several months, went off OK. Still have various reports to deliver, but although they’re maybe more important, there’s not the same intensity of fear about screwing up in public!
2) The hospital where I did an exercise test last month to check out my heart after my pseudo-heart-attack late last year came back with: “Tell the patient normal”.
3) This is the really big one, and genuinely makes me feel I’m much luckier than I have a right to be: I get to leave work sometime in late May, with enough compensation to see me through, with care, until I can start drawing my pension. This is all down to the financial crisis: my employer’s biggest funder has cut our funding, but as part of a deal, agreed to fund a kind of redundancy scheme. The last couple of years have been very stressful at work – hence my pseudo-heart-attack – and I was already thinking about when I could afford to leave when news of this scheme came out. I applied, but didn’t expect to be accepted, because I doubted they would be willing to let me go (I’m doing work that no-one else is both able to do, and has the time to take on). But I was: I’ve heard they were reluctant to turn people down, fearing that they’d have a disgruntled employee looking for a way out and not focused on work. Those who’ve already gone include a lot of key staff, so the next couple of years are likely to be even more stressful for those left behind, poor sods.
The pseudo-heart-attack brought it home to me that I don’t know, at 57, how many years of good health I have left, and I want to both enjoy them, and use the time well. I reckon I can do more worthwhile research in two days a week on my own, than in a full and over-full week on the treadmill of constantly applying for funding, writing reports justifying what I’ve done, and either chasing admin staff who are desperately overworked themselves, or doing their work for them. I can also take some of the load off Mrs. KG, whose supposedly part-time job actually isn’t, and get back into political work that I’ve lacked the energy for. I’m aware of at least some of the pitfalls – like spending too much time indulging my SIWOTI syndrome – but I’m going to treat it like a new career, with more freedom than I’ve had at any time in my life. Maybe fate’s waiting round the corner with a sock full of sand, but right now, I don’t think I’ve ever looked forward to anything more.
consciousness razor
Definitely. The place he would love to go to (as of now, anyway) is the same one where he’s in the junior Saturday school, in fact, partly because it offers a specialist jazz course. There’s some overlap between the staff who teach the undergrads and those who teach the juniors, and they are all (so far) incredibly approachable and friendly. And it has the added advantage that he would still be in his home city; he could live away from home, but we’d be available in emergencies – a sort of half-way house to real independent living, away from us if he can cope. But he should obviously check out other places too.
Maybe my feelings about that at the moment are coloured by the fact that almost all the muscians we see seem to be working in a sort of sea of small groups, constantly forming and re-forming, sometimes for a single gig, sometimes for an album, sometimes for years but all guesting on each other’s groups all the time … so I see personal/social communication skills playing a very big and important part in their lives and I think he might struggle a lot with that. I am really not sure – which is why this conversation today is so helpful, and I’m much obliged to all the Hordely posters for it!
Dr. Audley
argh, yes – I know – but I dread being too starry-eyed myself. Ideally I’d wish he had both – the playing he loves, plus employability (especially as we aren’t in a position to give financial support). And if wishes were horses … (presumably if wishes were horses there’d be no peas on earth … I think. I get a bit confused about the whole horses and peas thing. At least you know where you are with a Vampire Ducky)
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Nutmeg, I’m glad you survived the Dread Social Event. I hate it that we are expected to do stuff like that, and act like we’re enjoying it even when we really really aren’t – I love to dance as long as I can just do it on my own (I’m rubbish at dancing with someone), but I utterly dread any kind of social event where you don’t know (almost) everyone there and you’re expected to Make Conversation, ffs. With strangers. Ugh.
KG, that’s great news! Enjoy the next phase, to the full.
KG that’s brilliant. I’d give my right arm (well, figuratively only) to be able to take early retirement right now (and my work isn’t even stressful). Anyway, I’m really glad for you! Your health gets more precious the more you realise you can’t take it for granted …
Thank you niftyatheist! {{hugs}} (you said you’re half-way through the spawn-launching process … hope it’s going well for you!)
Ichthyic
– true, but I’m being parental here! I’m worrying! I mean, I’m going to influence YS to some extent whether I want to or not (if only to do the opposite, of course), so I want to not make things worse. Oy, what was I thinking way back when – thinking I could parent? I must have been mad.
LOL, I think cartoon showing the hyena gender roles is what every misogynist’s nightmare looks like.
Eh, I don’t mind it.
My semi-ex (she’s not really much of an ‘ex’ anymore, but I still don’t wanna jinx it by going around saying we’re together again) is both bigger than me and definitely the ‘dominant’ half.
She makes the major rules and decisions about the offspring, which is also female. Much like the hyena, she’s also very ‘masculine’. (I have no idea why I like girls who act like guys, but I’m sure there’s a reason.)
A fool might try to ‘be a man’ and put his foot down in this kind of situation, but I’m no fool. Heeheehee. Most of the time.
Granted, we’re not as rough with each other as hyenas are. At least, not anymore. It’s kinda hard to explain ‘play biting’ to a toddler so she understands we’re not REALLY hurting each other.
Capsaicin: My mouth can stand it just fine. But my intestines weep and vomit every time. Sad.
No such limits on wasabi though, and I just can’t eat my sushi without it.
Ooops, failed blockquote.
That’s great news, KG. All of it.
I recommend earlier retirement. Was forcibly retired at 50, went into politics and part-time work – in that order. As I approach 70 I’d get no gold stars for my physical condition but probably saved my brain – it feels at the moment as though it will last for ever.
Just remember to enjoy!
KG:
:) and *hugs!*
Ichthy:
This, this, this!
And this isn’t a new thing– the tech sector jobs that were supposed to be so hot before the economic downfall weren’t really. I kind of feel like my generation was sold a bill of goods.
KG, your post is the best good news post in a while! So happy for you! This : “I’m aware of at least some of the pitfalls – like spending too much time indulging my SIWOTI syndrome – but I’m going to treat it like a new career, with more freedom than I’ve had at any time in my life. Maybe fate’s waiting round the corner with a sock full of sand, but right now, I don’t think I’ve ever looked forward to anything more.” is just great to read. Go you!!
Opposable thumbs – I believe if wishes were horses, there would due no RUM left on earth! Damn the horses! :D
Ichthyic, I so want to agree completely with the reach for the stars attitude. I do hope youngsters reach for their dreams and I think parents are right to encourage talents as much as humanly possible. If a kid is determined, I would never stand in hir way – would help and support to the best of my ability. That kind of drive is probably unstoppable and might be the key to reaching the stars according to that child’s vision.
I also agree that we haven’t a flying figment of a clue about how things will turn out for them – or which way the economy will stagger next – or what will be “the” thing of the future. But, again, with whatever data we have now, I think its my job to encourage my undecided youngers to look for the likeliest option for decent prospects for useful and meaningful employment in a field which reflects some of their talents. Life is more than just paid work. Many great achievements were made by people who did an entirely different thing to pay the bills.
Just saying that I disagree with the implication that unless a person is willing to risk everything to develop one talent then s/he has somehow sold out, or parents have forced hir to sell out. Few people possess only one talent. I wonder why talent in music or some other art is held to a different standard than talent in maths, science or for that matter English, history or carpentry. If a teenager has great musical talent, but also has ability in math and science, I don’t see why it must be preferable that s/he pursue the musical talent for a career or s/he is a sellout, do you see what I mean?
Maybe it is because great artistic talent is rarer than ability in math and english, and so we feel as a society that it ought to be more respected and it is somehow a terrible thing to “waste”. But I do not agree that making anything one loves an avocation is a “waste” – whether a person pursues music for a career and makes computer science the avocation, or pursues computer science for a career and makes music the avocation.
Jumping jupiter round and round the merrygoround, I just can’t shut up! Sorry for TL!
Maybe my problem is that I like rum (to excess), peas (in moderation) and horses. I may be internalising the Deep Rifts.
Good night, Horde – and thank you again for all the help/thoughts/conversation. I’m going to read all those bits again tomorrow, and muse and prepare for more research. Youse lot are the very very best.
TLC: I thought your ex liked girls.
If a teenager has great musical talent, but also has ability in math and science, I don’t see why it must be preferable that s/he pursue the musical talent for a career or s/he is a sellout, do you see what I mean?
yup.
If they love music, encourage it… but also encourage that they need to not JUST involve themselves with music. In fact, the best way to do that is to show them that music without knowledge of other things is rather flat. Uniqueness comes from applying knowledge of many things, to the thing you love most.
Well, that’s been my experience, anywho.
I hadn’t thought of it (bolded) like that before, and I couldn’t agree more! Will send that quote to assorted offspring! Thanks!
Oh, oh! Captain Awkward covered that one! (doing what you like v. doing what gets you a job, that is). And you have to read the comments, particularly this one, which gets directly at whether it’s more noble somehow to do arts than sciences. Even if you don’t read the post, read that one comment.
From Carlie’s link:
Brava, Elodie.
Last thread:
Matt:
Professional devil’s advocate, eh?
Pteryxx:
If you heard something turn over just now, that was my stomach.
consciousness razor:
I have never been impressed with any attempt to fuse Mexican and Italian cuisine. There are some similarities, but too many clashes of flavors.
Ogvorbis:
Taking people for what they are, instead of the little boxes society puts them into, requires thought. That makes some people’s brainmeats hurt.
Audley:
Congratulations. Keep going. :)
FWIW, a friend of mine found it easier to quit meth than caffeine.
Opposable thumbs:
The same reason the money’s always gone.
Pteryxx:
It’s like Walton’s monarchy posts, but with ponies.
Nutmeg, re “Teaching boys to be good men”: That’s terrific. However, I’m sure Margaret Wente is writing a “rebuttal” column even as I type about The Good Old Days, when boys learned to be “men” from Playboy and the locker room.
Carlie, I’m glad you’re feeling better. Being with good people can do that. Also, hooray for Goodwill — a terrific alternative to the Salvation Army. I just dropped off a bunch of books and CDs at one yesterday.
Current thread: Hi, Betelgeux!
Kristinc, re the earring: :( indeed.
Jules:
Yes. You’re one of the few other people I’ve encountered who acknowledges this fact.
Shit, Francisco. That’s pretty frightening.
Sili, for residents of poor American neighborhoods, the cops are next to useless and sometimes worse than useless.
Antiochus:
That is awesome.
She’s five. Give her some time.
Nutmeg, hm, how do I explain the joy of dancing to someone who’s just not into it? It’s a way of “getting closer” to whatever music is playing, maybe even stepping inside it, if you will. It can be highly erotically charged, with or without a partner to
grind up againstdance with. Certain forms of dance are high art, although admittedly you’ll see little of that at a party. I think, most of all, it taps into something primal for people who enjoy it, which is why it’s often been part of religious ritual.I’m not terribly sociable, nor do I cut anything like a breathtaking figure on a dance floor, but I’ve always enjoyed doing just-plain-fun dancing, like to “Shout” at college parties or “Celebration” at weddings. And I once went salsa dancing with an SO, which I didn’t think I’d enjoy, but I did. I mentioned “highly erotically charged” already, didn’t I? ;)
Gym classes are all sorts of fail. If it were up to me, kids would be allowed to choose between competitive sports and individually oriented activities such as walking, dancing, etc. that don’t have “winners” and “losers.” And it would be the kid’s decision, not the decision of their sports-crazed parent who wants to raise a little football or gymnastics star.
PTI:
Why not? \m/
Well, you know, women are public property…
What’s even more WTF to me are the white people who’ll go up to black people and ask to touch their hair, or just touch it without permission. I read an anecdote the other day from a woman who was walking around in a large U.S. city when this white guy on a motorcycle pulled over, dismounted, walked over to her, and put his hands in her hair. As he was considerably taller and heavier than she was and there was nobody around who could be counted on to come to her aid, she was terrified and didn’t feel able to pull away and tell him off.
Pteryxx:
I think you’re overgeneralizing quite a bit. Quite a few con goers like to tie one on. Also, sometimes attendees are too friendly. I’m hardly mundane, possibly non-neurotypical, and I really don’t want random strangers coming up to me for hugs, especially if there’s a guilt trip or further attempts at boundary violation when one pulls back.
I’m not much of a drinker at all, but I really don’t see the problem with alcohol as a social lubricant, so long as it’s done in moderation and with an appreciation for the beer, wine, or liquor you’re consuming. Getting shit-faced just to get shit-faced, not so much.
Caine:
Seriously.
Cat:
Who the fuck are you to “condone” or not “condone” what other people choose to put in their bodies? Once in a great while, I smoke pot. I don’t do it as much as I’d like because my work situation is unstable and I might have to pee in a cup in order to get a new job, because corporate America is all about lifestyle policing. The sort of prissy bullshit you spout contributes to that kind of political environment. Get over it and get over yourself.
Rey Fox:
It would be better for all kinds of kids, not just socially awkward ones.
Ichthyic:
There remain some stable careers, mainly things that will always be needed and can’t be outsourced, such as locksmithing or plumbing. Outside of those, I agree that it’s best for someone to diversify their skills. Aside from not putting all of one’s eggs in one basket, there is always the possibility of combining two distinct skills.
KG, glad to hear your heart is doing well and your stress levels will soon be reduced.
Daisy:
Somehow I’m not shocked.
Thanks for the encouragement, by the way. My cravings are getting less and less every day, which makes me feel really good. :)
Mr Darkheart, on the other hand, has been having a hell of a time quitting smoking. Like, he had a break down at work a couple of weeks ago, poor guy. He’s been using an e-cigarette since then, which works well ‘cos it takes the edge off of his cravings, but it doesn’t bother me (or make me want to smoke) at all. Win-win in my book.
Sili, @#1: “Does that mean, you’ll be our guide?”
Pay the airfare, hotel, and admission, and I’m all yours.
*ahem*
All generalisations are false.
If you’re used to keeping your feelings locked down tightly, say for example because you had self-absorbed and unsympathetic parents, then a drink or two is not so bad to help you let go. A good cry and consolation from friends is much better than being a total stoic at all times. (Yes, this is relevant to my kitteh, who is now missing presumed dead. And my mother.)
Alethea:
Oh no. I’m so sorry, Alethea.
The number of people who flat out lie to their kids about drugs and alcohol, while in many cases continuing to smoke pot and drink themselves drives me freaking nuts. I’m more in favor of the “if you wait until your myelination is a bit further along, you get a lovely heirloom hand blown art glass bong” approach, which is the traditional gold pocket watch strategy updated. Also it’s remarkably effective at ending peer hassling when kids tell this reason for not yet getting high to random peers who are encouraging them to start.
carlie, this was awesome. S/he wrote so eloquently what I would love to be able to say to the nifty offspring!
KG. ;)
Re: rec. drugs.
I love ’em so I don’t ever use ’em. Except for booze. And caffeine*. And nicotine, I guess. And I love benedryl, although lamentably, I get a chance to use it maybe once every here or four years.
*From my cold, dead hands, etc.
Alethea, oh no! I am sorry about the kitteh! I had hoped you would be able to ease her through this and yourself at the same time. :(
Audley, I’m glad to hear you’re getting past the cravings. I wish Mr. Darkheart the same eventual success.
Alethea, I’m so sorry about your kitteh.
Well, it’s been coming for some time. We had hoped to give him an easy time of it with painkillers and anti-nausea meds and hus favourite foods. But he was just like his brother – smashed through a locked cat door to get outside.
Our other 2 cats are being great consolation, especially Zeppo who thinks he’s a parrot and is sitting on my shoulder. Back to front, arse out.
Sorry Alethea – I don’t know why I thought your missing kitteh was a “she” . :( I’m glad your other cats are pulling together for you.
Alethea:
Heh, our Ophelia does that. I’m glad the other cats are helping out.
Congo rats to KG!
Oh, those aren’t my problems.
I don’t think there is much I could become embarrassingly disinhibited about; on the other hand, I’ve never been in the situation of “I want to talk to that person but I don’t dare”. Alcohol simply stinks*, in higher concentrations it burns in the throat*, not just the smell but also the taste of beer is utterly horrible**, and I don’t even like grape juice, so I simply have no reason to drink.
All that is long before we get to “I don’t want to mess with my brain at all” or “I don’t want to have a hangover”.
Being tired disinhibits me, as we’ve found out on this very Thread several times, and as we’re probably going to find out again two paragraphs from now. Even so, there isn’t much to let loose on the unsuspecting world.
Dancing… it’s not a question of ability for me. I have good coordination. I just lack any urge to… make artificial movements, in public or alone, ritualized or improvised. I can’t see where the amusement is in it – my idea of amusing myself with someone is to sit around and talk! Dance is far too limited as a means of communication :-)
I don’t think of dancing as a mating display much. That’s because I’d hardly ever have anybody to display to. As far as this 29-year-old virgin can tell, very few people look fuckable. I’ve always expected this to be mutual. (…Yes, “I”, “I”, “I, “I”. It’s all about me and Dr. Asperger. Projecting is all I can do.)
* Exception to both: the Polish raspberry distillate malinówka somehow doesn’t smell of alcohol and doesn’t burn in the throat, even though it’s 35 % alcohol. I’d never have guessed that it contained any. However, it’s called “sweet”, and it isn’t sweet; it’s a bit bitter, and that’s all the taste it has. I can’t find a reason to drink that. – Wine, BTW, smells like the alcohol used for washing in chemistry labs.
** I accidentally found out because “green” tea is often yellow in China. Gah. Beer stinks plenty enough, but the taste… *facepalm* …for the record, that wasn’t some kind of “cheap knockoff of Coors Light”, it was one of the two most highly praised brands of beer in the whole country, and everyone else at the conference*** thoroughly enjoyed it, except the Iranian, I suppose (I didn’t watch him).
*** How else would I wind up in China! :-)
Varies according to personalities. Most scientists consider tenure a goal to arrive at, because then they’re relieved of financial and other meatspace sorrows about the future and can pursue their hobby – which happens to be their job – in peace. :-)
At the other extreme, there’s a colleague who has allegedly said he wants to have more publications than {19th-century big name that published lots and lots of very short, mostly useless papers mostly because of stupid competition with another such guy – Bone Wars}. He’s the editor of his own in-house journal, so he gets Least Publishable Units published that would be rejected as too boring elsewhere, for instance a description of an isolated rib fragment that can hardly be determined with greater precision than “limbed vertebrate”. He’s been accused of plagiarism… let’s just leave it at that. Sad to waste so many trees in a desert.
Depends on the drug, I suppose. Barbiturates are very similar to alcohol.
I’m not sure what you mean. There’s plenty of peer pressure in Europe to make people drink. I tend to escape by being peerless… I mean, by knowing extremely few people in meatspace. – How easily people will accept it when you say you don’t drink varies between countries, but the binge-drinking for which the UK has become famous exists everywhere.
All seconded.
Alethea, sorry to hear about your kitteh.
Oh, I’m so sorry, Alethea. Maybe he wanted one last good romp in the outdoors and went the way he wanted to. Hugs through the usb port headed to you.
Alethea:
Oh no!
*hugs* and sympathies.
Oh, Alethea, I’m so sorry.
Audley:
Hugs, sympathy, and pseudogrog are on the way.
[I cannot read this evening! Sorry.]
AudleyAlethea:Hugs, sympathy, and pseudogrog are on the way.
Re: alcohol
I’ve always preferred Christopher Hitchens’ advice on alcohol, from Hitch-22:
Mr. Mattir
Ha! Excellent! That would legitimately get most kids who are pressuring others to do drugs to shut up.
Alethea, re the cat:
How long has he been missing? Is it cold where you are? If he’s been gone under two weeks and it’s not very chilly, he could easily be alive. One of my cats returned a full seven weeks after he went missing; it turned out a neighbor was feeding him.
Catnip and ibyea:
Glad to see there are a few fellow amateur astronomers here at Pharyngula. It was cloudy for the Lyrid meteor shower, which was a bummer, but I’m happy to say that my new telescope (a sniny Celestron NexStar 8se) is currently being shipped to my house. I can’t wait for its first light! It’s my first eight inch telescope. It’s going to be much more compact than my behemoth Orion XT-6 Dobsonian, which I affectionately call “the Cannon”.
Is anyone other than Sili coming to the “Atheist Perspective” meeting in Cologne?
Raw carrots are gross in terms of taste, texture and to some extent smell. It’s also a category mistake to eat them like potatoes. They belong in soup! Saltwater rulez!
I’ll finally go to bed now, but on Wednesday ( = after the next deadline) I shall embark upon a quest to find out what meaning(s), if any, the English word purpose has. Zweck* doesn’t fit here, Absicht** doesn’t either… I don’t get it.
* Aristotle’s “final cause”. The function a tool was made for or an action is meant to fulfill.
** Intent. Deliberately/on purpose = absichtlich.
Ah, yeah. That’s exactly what I don’t want. I want my own emotions to be in control of my heartbeat, not some external influence.
When Incurious George did that, I was informed that there’s a whole superstition about it in the Deep South™: .
:-} :-} :-}
So the Hitch was a level-drinker rather than a rush-drinker.
Also, ethanol is fat-soluble enough that fat slows down its uptake through the stomach wall.
*dumps load of hugs on the floor*
*goes to bed*
Google Doodle: The ZX Spectrum.
Oh, take me back …
—
Alethea (and anyone else in need), here’s drink of appropriate proof in your network connection.
Completely threadrupt but saw this one…
Alethea:
I’m very sorry.
I’m firing the HugsandBacon-inator towards you and the kitteh at full capacity.
Oggie:
I wish gonna say… I’m quite contently full of homemade pizza right now. *burp*
:)
Check out the Google doodle for Earth Day.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I University isn’t in the cards, and YS likes music, being an electronics repair technician at a studio is a great gig. We worshiped our techs, and most of them were fine musicians too, plus since you’re at the studio you can pick up session gigs.
Social skills not required.
Again, sorry. I screwed up and, apparently, cannot tell the difference between Audley and Alethea.
Sorry about the kitty.
betelgeux, about Alethea’s cat – it’s not a case of a runaway cat. He was home for his final days. It takes a while when your new on TET, but take the time to read. You can catch up with earlier incarnations by clicking the link under the video at the top.
Woohoo, I got thrown off of a horse this morning. I knew it was coming so i went with it instead of trying to stay on. It was exhilarating! Makes me miss the rodeo.
I have a very similar approach to tattoos and piercings: nobody worth getting stabbed by will stab a minor, kids, so plan your ink or your piercings until you turn 18 and then your dad and I will chip in to help pay for it. We add a heaping handful of shame, though, in the form of “ha ha everybody will know you’re an idiot if you end up with shitty tats”.
Oooooooooh lord. I’m trying to watch Trek DS9 on a friend’s recommendation. Like everything Trek it so oscillates between “imaginative concepts” and “face palming corny WTF”
Ye Olde Blacksmith #238
Nothing like hitting the ground at high speed and then having to be careful that the horse doesn’t stomp on you. What fun!
At least at the rodeo you were being thrown off horses for money.
Have to admit I see the sense in making things into “rites of passage.” Hey, there are Sweet 16 parties, quinceneras, etc. – why not make getting your first tattoo into a milestone event? As for booze, my parents let me and brother sample some wine when we were younger. We weren’t crazy about it, but it took away some of the attraction that comes from making something forbidden “just because.” We also got the “drinking at home is the safest bet” and “drink with people you trust” bits.
Years later, we enjoy alcohol responsibly (and are wine fiends).
—————————————-
Huh, Jack Wall’s wife Cindy sang the lyrics for the bonus track on Myst III: Exile. I like her voice.
—————————————-
Sorry about your kitty, Althea. I’ve heard of cats taking off during their last days. Whatever the reason, it doesn’t take away the grief and feelings of loss. Hang in there.
—————————————–
Blacksmith; I didn’t get thrown, so much as fall off, a horse, but it hurts all the same! The good thing was that this did not happen on an icy surface. I kind of miss riding horses. I’d like to get back into it, but it’s hard to find lessons for adults close by, and which are affordable.
——————————————
I suppose one good thing about the internet dropping out occasionally on windy and/or rainy nights and days is that it forces me to focus more on writing, rather than try to distract myself from another possible rejection by pissing away time online. Makes it hard to take breaks to converse with J or my new friend, R, on AIM though.
——————————————
Note to self: Try to find wood putty. A bit of that and the chair that’s been residing in your room for three years with a chewed arm might go away.
Alethea H., so sorry to hear about your kitteh. Ours is sleeping on the back of the couch behind my wife’s head. I will take extra care of both this evening.
I hope your things go well with your mother.
I got to play “Happy Birthday” to my mother on my ukulele, yesterday, then actually did sing and dance for her–the chorus of “Waltzing with Bears” while waltzing with the other singer (the better singer, my wife).
Speaking of mothers, I was driving along a country road the other day, and saw a new baby calf. I say new because his umbilical was still a very pretty pink and his poor little mother still had the other end trailing out of her. The little guy was on his feet and trying to nurse, already.
I left them to it, but I wondered about how instincts worked to manage the birthing process. Had she bitten through the cord? How had he felt in the birthing process while being grown and aware enough to get up and walk and nurse a few minutes later? It was amazing to see and to think about.
I have noticed this tendency in trolls also. I’ve also noticed that Nerd seems to collect them. Raj somewhat did this, although he addressed others, it was nerd that he directed his invective at.
Hi C.A.T.
Welcome!
Opposablethumbs, Glad to hear that the gig went well & was well received. I’d be happy to give more thoughts on technical careers if YS shows any interest.
Nutmeg:
Not drinking should never be considered a bad thing in itself. My sister doesn’t drink, simply because she doesn’t like the taste of (any) alcohol(ic beverages she has tried). She seems to have coped well inspite of this :-)
On the dancing part, personally I like dancing, but not the mass of individuals gyrating in an unchoreographed mass. Rather, I enjoy rock’n’roll style, where one dances with a partner, where you have to be able to move in synch with each other & in time to the music. Can be a lot of fun & very bonding.
Brother O:
I don’t believe I have ever had a cherry coke. Does the flavour bear any resemblance to cherries?
Ahhh, the days when I had a “3” in my age! Best I can hope for now is once a decade.
The most important thing in seeking a satisfying life is 1) do the thing you love most (if you can). 2)don’t be too hung up on the financial rewards. They’re overrated.
Having said that, if you can do something that you love, and have a stable income from it, all the better. Some skills will always be useful (at least within the lifetime of an individual). Music. People will always want to listen to good live music. Technology. People will always want more of this (up until the Collapse of Civilization ™ )
@KG
1), 2) & 3). Glad to hear things working out the way you want them too.
Personally, I doubt I’ll ever be ready to retire entirely from work. Either intellectually or financially.
Parenting is much harder than anyone thinks, but kids are more resilliant too. Odd that.
Ms Daisy Cutter:
QFT.
I was given the choice at school of doing sport or learning French. I chose french.
WTF *headdesk*
I remember a time in school, I had a science teacher from PNG & one of the school bullies attempted to connect an electric circuit to his hair to see if it conducted. I was personally mortified by this, but as the usual butt of bullies, in no position to speak up. Always felt ashamed of that incident, even though I was a bystander, rather than perpetrator (and 12yo)
Rey Fox: Yeah. She does. But for some weird reason, she’s also into me. And I mean, I hold back a lot. I like it better when the other person initiates all the intimate stuff, so it’s not like I’m pressuring her for affection or anything (I’d certainly hope I’m not ‘subconciously’ doing it either).
At this point, I try not to question it. Hasn’t it generally been agreed by now that human sexuality is more of a sliding scale and that things aren’t all ‘black and white’ or ‘gay and straight’ like that?
It does make me feel incredibly lucky though. ‘Special’, even.
I am happy for you. Laughing Coyote!
Pteryxx: Afterthought.
The unironic use of “mundanes” rubs me the wrong way, much as the unironic use of “sheeple” does. The sneering and self-aggrandizing presumptions are much the same. Really, liking anime or gaming or what have you doesn’t make one a more worthwhile person, any more than liking football does. If that were true, efforts like this wouldn’t be necessary.
@betelgeux
I only said that I was aspiring to be one, basically studying to become professional. Not exactly an amateur astronomer. My only experience in amateur astronomy is taking various pictures of two lunar eclipse with my digital camera using my hands. Yeah, I don’t even have a tripod. Plus, I occasionally went to the astronomy club, but that is all.
Ms. Daisy: Agreed. In general, I’ve found anyone who uses the term “mundanes” unironically is confusing a complete lack of social skills and sense of boundaries or what is appropriate with being uninhibited.
But then, I am kind of completely disgusted by most geek culture. All the same unaddressed privilege issues, PLUS bonus beaten-to-death never funny injokes and a combined sense of martyrdom and smug superiority! Seriously, geeky folks aren’t any better or more interesting or enlightened because their hobbies are less popular.
Happiestsadist: Agreed.
Thanks, Niftyatheist. I’m thankful for what I have, but I’m even more thankful that I have the good sense to recognize and be thankful for what I have.
I could very easily have far, far less.
C.A.T: I really should yell at you like Caine did, but I’m curious about your answer: WHY do you ‘not condone recreational drug use’?
Ms Daisy:
Funny, I missed that.
The whole conversation about alcohol rubbed me the wrong way (I tried to be nice in my post about it ‘cos I was grouchy earlier today and didn’t want to take it out on the thread. Anyway). The implication of why would you want to do that?? is loaded with so much judgement that it wanted to make me scream.
I mean, it’s all very high school, isn’t it?
Kristinc from last thread:
Sorry to hear about the spiral earring getting broken. They must be so delicate! I hope you can get more and have three, just in case. Note–I’ve taken to buying two pairs of earrings so I have to lose three before I have to stop wearing them, instead of just one. Of course, you can’t do that if they’re really expensive but it works for the inexpensive ones I buy.
Did you come back with, “We’re just people like everybody else?”
Well, at this point it wouldn’t surprise me if I don’t understand social skills. Yeah, I used the term “mundane” as that’s how I learned it back then, at the beginning of my con volunteering days; and these were people who sneered at me for reading science fiction, for talking about what genetic engineering might someday lead to, and for not watching the same sitcoms that everyone else in the lab did (or getting drunk when everyone else did). I’d as soon not call them simply “neurotypicals” because neurotypicals aren’t necessarily so closed-minded. I meant “mundanes” to be mildly insulting, similar to “fundies”. If the term’s got such offensive freight then I’ll back off it.
I don’t think *liking* gaming or anime or whatever makes someone a better person; but being able to admit it does make them safer.
C.A.T., I’m also rather curious about your “not condoning recreational drugs”. (Alcohol is totes fine, though. Apparently.)
Why?
Audley, I agree completely. There’s a seriously smug and judgmental special-snowflake vibe in this edition of TET, and — as someone who was never a “popular kid” and has some distinctly geeky interests — it’s irking the shit out of me.
If someone’s hobby isn’t hurting anyone else, who cares? If someone’s consumption habits aren’t hurting anyone else, who cares?
Yes!
I seem to have spent most of the weekend driving, a poor way to celebrate Earth Day weekend. The g’daughter is 80 km away and her dad is 80 km beyond that. The weekend went like this. Friday: drive to g’daughter’s, pick her up; drive to my son’s, pick him up; drive 160 km back to my place. Saturday: drive g’daughter about 85 km to a party, drive home. Drive back 80 km to her friend’s place, pick her up, drive home. Sunday: take everyone out to lunch, drive g’daughter home, drive son home; turn around and drive back to my place. Total with side trips about 685 km.
I’ve personally never found it safer, Pteryxx. Geeks are just as likely to be full of the same toxic shit as everybody else, and occasionally more so, depending on the circles. or are you saying that an environment where geekiness is more acceptable is safer for geeks? Which is definitely true. “Mundanes”, as used unironically, tends to carry the load against the user, I’ve seen.
More woodburning artworks on my tomahawk:
Red tailed hawk! http://tinypic.com/r/ff6ddg/5
Rabbit! http://tinypic.com/r/34yv5tk/5
And, naturally…
Coyote! http://tinypic.com/r/2zxuikn/5
(Does it actually ‘read’ as coyote and not wolf or siberian husky? Wild canids are tricky that way.)
I do love geeks but I found so many of them actually are weaselly little toadies who seem to reflexively side with the more powerful side of any power discrepancy.
David M. @11, Rineback is Oct. 20 – 21 this year.
Pteryxx, a lot of old-school fans use “mundane” to refer to anyone who isn’t in their subculture, and the contempt is implicit. While the word doesn’t have the same “offensive freight” as a racial or gender slur, it really does imply that the speaker is somehow better because they like A instead of B. Which is, quite honestly, an attitude better left in high school, as Audley implied.
The social calculus isn’t the same, obviously — it’s easier to be a football fan in the U.S., especially in the conservative areas, than it is to be (for example) a Star Trek fan. But it doesn’t rise to the level of an oppression.
Perhaps the subcircle of fandom you spend time in is safe. Fandom in general, which is extremely huge and diverse, is not necessarily so, nor is geek culture. From the site I linked earlier: The back story, concerning sexual harassment at conventions.
The proper term for people such as your former co-workers is “assholes.”
Ing: Agreed. Libertarian geeks, in particular, are just plain awful. I would take an open-minded, respectful, equality-minded guy who’s into baseball over someone like Eric S. Raymond, any day.
Ing: THIS! YES! Cosigned and all that.
I am geeky as hell, and everyone I love is too, but I’ve mostly found there to be little correlation between “awesome person” and “geeky person”, and certainly no causation. Also, there are geeks who go out drinking and clubbing. WHAT NOW, self-satisfied geeks?!
Daisy:
Bingo.
I enjoy a drink. I don’t do anything dangerous (ie- drive) after I’ve been drinking. Why the fuck should anyone care beyond that?
Ing:
Oh my god, this.
Along these lines: Quick show of hands, how many of us have known nerds/geeks/whatevers who were total libertarians?
*waves both hands in the air!*
I apologize. I do have a tendency to be excessively judgmental and to not realize just how strongly that sometimes comes across in my speech and writing. I honestly don’t think that my way of doing things is any better or worse than anyone else’s, in general – it just works better for me.
I have to explain my preferences a lot more often than I want to, and I get tired of it. Some days, I want to reverse things and ask for the majority choice to be explained. But I shouldn’t act like my choices are somehow better because they’re less common. I’m sorry that my comments were judgy.
A lot of the time, my thoughts aren’t so much “Why would you want to do that?”. It’s more “I am in awe of your confidence” and “Wow, you still act like a decent person even with some filters removed. I don’t think I would be able to do that, so I’ll keep my inhibitions intact.”
I find it really frustrating that you think that, because honestly I know at least some of us ask because we DON’T KNOW THE FUCKING ANSWER. Like, I still go through periods of time where I feel defective because I don’t understand the things my agemates are doing to socialize, I don’t understand why they are doing them or relate to the subjective experience they seem to be having while doing them, and I just can’t access that entire part of culture at all. Worse, since everyone else in my meatspace life sincerely seems to get it and take part in these things together, I feel like I’m locked out of something that is necessary for making meatspace friends or having any semblance of a “normal” life. (This is perhaps a bad time for this to come up, because I’ve recently started dealing with feelings of inadequacy I never really had before about this – I keep feeling incredibly shitty about not having any meatspace friends and neither really knowing how to make any nor really feeling able to do any of the things are supposed to help (like going to meetings of things – when I do, I can’t talk to anyone anyway, so I feel like I’m just wasting everybody’s time).) I doubt that either you or Ms. Daisy Cutter is completely unacquainted with the feeling of not being able to understand something that everyone else around you seems to get (that’s not meant as an insult), so what gives? Like, my position here is that I have started to sincerely doubt that I will ever be able to understand these things better. I do try, but when I say I don’t understand things here, it’s usually not in hopes of getting an explanation anymore, it’s because I am frustrated and sometimes sad and I know there are people here who will be able to commiserate. It’s incredibly shitty that admitting to not getting it – with all the attendant frustration and pain that it can cause – would lead to people assuming you’re being judgmental or being angry at you for not understanding it. (The latter is not what you’re doing, but other people in my life have done it.)
HappiestSadiest:
Wasn’t Ichthyic saying something about the benefits of being a well-rounded person not that long ago…?
If I don’t finish the prescription for pain-killers from the root-canal and use them later for their soporific effects, is that recreational?
KG, lovely news about being ‘bought out’ so you can have less stress and more free time! Enjoy!
G’night, all.
I’ve noticed this too! I wonder what that is all about? It isn’t a correlationship I would have thought of, that is for sure!
Okay, I had understood the term “mundanes” to mean “people who actively reject and condemn geeks and geeky things” not just people who don’t care for such. That’s not the connotation the term has; then I’ll stop using it. I hope I made clear enough that ostracizing people based on their hobbies isn’t cool either way.
I still have a problem with the use of alcohol that I witnessed in this group, because of the social pressure to drink to the point of slurring their speech and falling over. That scared me, and seems to go beyond harmless enjoyment. I might just be conflating it with their being judgemental, but I’ll have to give it further thought.
I’ve heard too many cases of people who developed harmful addictions, mostly to painkillers, that seriously impacted their qualities of life. When people lose their spouses, jobs, sense of fulfillment, etc. over drugs, I think this is a problem. Maybe pot is relatively harmless, but you can’t ignore the stigma associated with drugs like cocaine and heroin. I’m less tolerant of these life-wreckers.
Maybe drugs should be organized on a sort of scale from least to most harmful, and have a cutoff somewhere so that only the least potentially harmful are legal. I don’t know where alcohol falls in this range, but I’m pretty sure tobacco is nearer the more harmful end, and I personally think it should be illegal. But I guess this is too simplified when you consider dosages and frequency of usage…just a thought
Admittedly, I’m a very judgmental person. Sorry for sounding so condescending. I guess if you have the will not to be sucked into a drug-obsessed frenzy, well I’ll still judge you, but in a way power to you??
CC: Ever hear the phrase “if it’s not about you, it’s not about you”? If your tone is not one of judgment or misguided smugness and is an actual question, you deserve commiseration. 9 times of out 10 when I see that kind of thing being brought up, it is being used to sneer, though. But if you’re not being a smug asshole, then we’re not talking about you. Maybe keep that in mind? Because hey, I have exactly one meatspace friend aside from the Mr. in the city right now. I also have some pretty fucking severe PTSD/depression/anxiety issues, so I’m not exactly a social butterfly, and I lost years of my life and most of my friends thanks to the PTSD and agoraphobia. The reason I’ve been light on even commenting here lately? Is that I’ve been too crazy and terrified to even comment on the internet and in agonizing pain that keeps me inside. So you know what? I’m unimpressed with your sobbing blaming of us for being mean and you just don’t understaaaand.
@CAT
At that point, it is a health problem. Making them illegal would prevent people who needs treatment from getting them.
CC, of course we get the concept of “I don’t get why this is appealing; could someone please explain this to me?” Which is why I tried to describe the appeal of dancing to Nutmeg.
But, yes, I have been picking up a cumulative feeling of disdain for “normal” activities in this edition, from various people. The nadir thereof was C.A.T. self-righteously announcing that they don’t “condone” recreational drug use, which really brought out my PHASERS SET TO FUCK YOU side.
I understand that you, Nutmeg, etc. didn’t intend any hurt and are trying to honestly understand a different POV. It doesn’t change how the comments felt to read. Not that I’m deeply hurt or crying or anything like that, just annoyed. And I’ll reiterate that I’m not a paragon of conventionality or sociability; I just have a mix of interests, some of which are geeky and some of which are not.
For what it’s worth I didn’t feel particularly judged by Nutmeg’s post.
I don’t really need alcohol as a social lubricant. I like how moderate amounts seem to ‘loosen me up’, but I mean that more physically than socially. I’ve got a fairly flexible skeleton and very piano-wirey and tendony muscles, and sometimes they can feel a little tense, and a bit of beer or wine with some food seems to relieve that.
I used to enjoy being full on drunk, but always alone and never really with others except for a few early experiments at ‘partying’. Those days are long over though, I hate hangovers but hell on earth for me is ‘the spins’. Now I just like to maintain a moderate buzz for a while.
CC: I do drink and smoke pot, but I just don’t do sports much, and never did as a kid. I always felt a social pressure to do it but could just never see the appeal. I love chasing stuff, but there’s gotta be a ‘point’, you know? But I don’t judge people who do sports, and I’m pretty certain you don’t judge those of us who do drugs.
I only really felt a twinge of judgement from C.A.T., what with the ‘not condoning’ *sniff* my recreational drug use. But it aroused more curiousity than anger. What is the reasoning here? WHY do you not condone it? Because I find it pretty shitty to impose one’s tastes on others, particularly when it’s tied to a set of very odious and unfair laws that are based in some very moralistic and unsound reasoning. Yeah, I know, C.A.T. don’t make the laws and all that, but it’s that general attitude that contributes to the atmosphere that keeps these laws afloat.
Also the double standard WRT alcohol.
CC,
Two options:
1) TRY WHATEVER IT IS YOURSELF. Then you have a fucking answer.
or
2) Accept that different people have different definitions of “fun” or “enjoyment”. You know what, I don’t understand the allure of furries, but for fuck’s sake, I don’t interrogate them over why they enjoy it.
Shorter me: Analyzing what other people do for fun is pointless and potentially offensive.
Go back to point number one. I try shit out. I have varied interests and tastes because I’m willing to give plenty of things a shot. And if I don’t like something, I move on.
(To take the sports metaphor that Daisy was using: I hate watching football. Plenty of my friends and family are football fans. So the fuck what? I just don’t hang out with them on Sundays during football season.)
It’s almost as if you think everyone’s a one-trick pony or something.
Sure, but it works the other way, too. Imagine being judged constantly for the things you do like– since I was a “tomboy” (how I hate that term) and a nerd while I was a teenager*, I caught a lot of shit from my peers and my siblings for not being “normal”. So don’t fucking pretend like it’s just “oh, the poor non-neurotypicals” and nobody else gets to join your pity parade.
*And, trust me, I am not a paragon of feminine mystique now.
Except that this isn’t the first time I’ve had this experience, so really, I don’t have a whole lot of faith in people’s judgment of whether other people are being smug assholes.
Sorry to hear it, honestly.
And also fuck you.
C.A.T. : Because the best way to deal with the stigma of cocaine and heroin is to stigmatize them further!
Consider Portugal’s drug laws, where all drugs are effectively decriminalized. They’ve since enjoyed less crime, less HIV infection, and a major drop in drug use among young people. And that’s not even bringing in the issue of the prison industry and its connection to pointless drug arrests in North America.
I require painkillers to do things like “go for a walk”, “get groceries”, you know, wild and crazy shit like that. Drug policies as they stand work against the people who actually need pain relief.
Feel free to judge the amazing adults here, but I doubt most of us will really be heartbroken by receiving the harsh judgment of a 20 year old who fell for Just Say No.
Oh, I missed C.A.T’s reply.
You’re right, this is certainly a problem.
From what dealers and former cokeheads have told me, pure cocaine on its own is actually a fairly harmless drug. It’s that “pure cocaine” doesn’t really exist in north america, the minute it’s imported, the ‘cutting’ begins, and the ‘cut’ can be almost anything, including methamphetamines and other hard stuff. Or so I’m told, I stay away from coke myself.
This is where we differ. It’s old religious type thinking that leads to society treating it as a ‘moral issue’ or ‘weakness of character’ or whatever else. Scientifically, well it’s pretty clear that almost all primates and indeed many other animals will ‘get high’ in one way or another if they can. I’m not sure anyone knows ‘why’ primates and other animals are driven to seek out mind-altering substances, but clearly there’s a reason.
It’s not a ‘moral’ issue requiring laws and punishments and penalties. Why penalize people who have a problem? To ‘teach them a lesson’? I don’t think like this, and I don’t think too highly of people who do TBH. But I try not to be judgemental…
Admittedly, I’m a very judgmental person. Sorry for sounding so condescending. I guess if you have the will not to be sucked into a drug-obsessed frenzy, well I’ll still judge you, but in a way power to you??
Well, that’s your problem and I’m very sorry for you.
cassandra caligaria, when I was young, I felt much as you do. Always felt out of step socially, did not feel like drinking or smoking up, but I was lucky in that I had a few close friends (still friends! 40 years later). Feeling out of step doesn’t have to equal feeling that something is wrong with you. You are just not interested in some of the same social things that most of your peers use – that is just a difference, not better or worse.
Also, you might be surprised if you could get inside the minds of these other people you think all “get it”. It turns out that most people feel out of sync with their peers at least occasionally – just about everyone feels like they are faking it far more often than you would maybe suspect.
OMG YOU AGEIST!!!
ibyea,
Some people legitimately need pain killers, but the methodone clinics shouldn’t hand out prescription drugs just to keep patients coming in; they should do careful background checks and be wary of intentions. Too many people too easily get their hands on these drugs, the question is how?
Ms. Daisy Cutter,
I’m sorry if I irked you. I didn’t mean to offend anyone, but with the voicing of opinions….
CC: I can relate to a large portion of your feelings @267. *hugs*
Ideally, none of us would be treated like we’ve “failed at life”, just because our personalities and/or choices are a bit different. But I still feel like that, a lot of the time. Here’s hoping it will improve for both of us as we and our peers grow older.
Oops, blockquote fail again. *D’OH!*
Well, that’s your problem and I’m very sorry for you.
Nifty:
This is so, so true. I found it hard to appreciate as a teenager and very young adult, but it sank in over time as a result of seeing and hearing example after example.
Suburban malaise and the emptiness of “keeping up with the Joneses” are clichés, but there was this one anecdote from True Mom Confessions that someone emailed me the link to, and it’s stayed with me. From the outside, the family in question seemed to “have it all,” in the stereotypical sense. But they had about 11 cents in the bank and mountains of debt, the woman hated her life, and all she wanted to do was ditch her husband and kids and run far away.
@CAT
Yeah, but like I said, illegalizing is not the answer. I don’t know what it is about illegalizing drugs that increases drug usage, but countries with experience in legalizing drugs show marked decrease in drug usage. Also, sending those people to jail is just unnecessarily cruel and doesn’t treat their addiction problem.
C.A.T.
You might want to put down that shovel…
C.A.T: No offense, but it’s a fucking stupid opinion, full of smug condescension and a sense of self righteous judgement.
I agree this is a problem. People in this situation need HELP. They need SUPPORT. They need their FRIENDS AND FAMILY (if they have any.) They probably need COUNSELLING.
What they do not need is to be fined or thrown in prison. Why penalize people who need help? Or do you not give a shit about them and just bring them up as flimsy ‘support’ for your dopey opinion?
C.A.T.: Uhh, that’s not how methadone clinics work. At least not in this country.
You’ve irked a number of us, because having someone who apparently knows more or less nothing about a subject thinking their judgment is something relevant or reality-based is, well, irksome.
Hmm, I think this qualifies as a First World Annoyance™. So I was sitting in the Atrium of the Massive Building of Science™ at my school while they were setting up for some kind of dinner. And I noticed that they had the tables set the wrong way. /pedancy
I can relate to you too, CC (as if that’s a surprise anymore). Also, I have done the JUST TRY IT!! thing, and … yeah, I still don’t get it. I know what it feels like to be drunk, for example, I just don’t understand why other people *enjoy* that feeling. And yeah, I feel like if I could get why other people enjoy it, even if I still personally don’t, I would have an easier time socializing. I guess this means it’s just impossible to get, though.
“There’s a kid drowning in that pond. That’s a problem. I know how to make it go away! I’ll throw rocks at him until he goes under! Shouldn’t have been swimming in the lake anyways…”
Honestly, I don’t know why there’s an issue with not “getting” what other people like. We all are baffled by what other people do for fun, so what?
That’s more or less the best analogy ever for how drug policy seems designed, TLC.
“And then make sure to build some sloped walls around the lake so it’s more or less impossible to get out if anyone else falls in!” PROBLEM SOLVED.
C.A.T.:
Not every opinion is equally worthwhile, let alone equally worth voicing.
Also, your fauxpology is noted.
Ah, how wonderful to be young. Giving opinions you haven’t really thought all the way through, feeling justified and not realizing that you aren’t–it’s a stage everyone goes through. Fortunately for you, C.A.T, you’ve happened into Pharyngula, so that stage will be dramatically shortened for you as compared to your peers. Take it as a gift: you’re wrong about the whole drug thing.
Cassandra, I feel for you–I mean, I haven’t walked in your shoes, but I think I understand. You want to be able to bring up things you don’t get about NTs without being judged for being judgey. Is that more or less it? I’d just say that the response to Nutmeg’s question wasn’t super condemnatory, just voicing mild irritation, at that very same feeling you don’t like–being judged. “Why would anybody want to do that???” definitely reads as a rhetorical question to me. There are other ways to ask the same thing that would more effectively convey that it’s coming from a place of sincere curiosity rather than judgmental disbelief.
*hugs* to Alethea at the passing of her kitty. My cat Chrissy went the same way–just disappeared one day. Very sad. I still remember it, nigh on 20 years later.
I’m making an orange crocheted octopus for Audley. *grin*
Anyone else experiencing a delay in comments (not their own; other people’s) appearing on the thread?
Agreed, Dr. Audley. I can accept that other people like things I don’t without necessarily getting the appeal personally. Also, chances are they like a variety of things, some of which I may like as well, and thus, at least some conversation is possible.
The Laughing Coyote,
I don’t consider this ‘an issue of morality.’ I’m disturbed by the stories I’ve heard of how drugs have derailed their lives. Yes, I’ve been told drugs are bad, and I bought into it, but my opinions about drug use aren’t simply the result of the Just Say No mantra. Some drugs, often considered off limits by moral standards, are entirely harmless and so maybe it’s ridiculous to try and enforce their illegality. My problem with drugs has more to do with their ill-effects.
I feel like I’m being attacked here and people are putting words in my mouth that I don’t agree with. What the fuck?! I’m not digging.Stop trying to shovel me in!
If not enforcing, or reducing the laws surrounding drug use actually helps alleviate the problem, then I’d be inclined to consent to this option. I just figured it might do the opposite. And Obviously, as I’ve said, I feel for these people so why would I want to throw them in jail? They need proper treatment.
And Happiestsadist, the methodone clinics are a HUGE problem, unfortunately. Look it up.
Yep.
Also, thank you for explaining to me earlier.
Pteryxx: No worries. Have a good night.
Sally:
I just did a victory dance on my couch. For realz. :D
If I knew that I was in for so much awesome hand-made stuff, I would have started popping kids out years ago.
HappiestSadist:
That’s what I meant by “one-trick pony” in my earlier teal deer. No one I know has only one interest and damned close to 100% have some interests/hobbies/likes that I either actively dislike or don’t give a flying fuck about.
My friend just linked me to a map of all the dialects in American English. It’s so extensive that I need to more time to look at it properly.
Aww, it’s cute that you think I don’t actually know about how methadone clinics work, C.A.T. I mean, every point you made so far about drugs is flat out wrong, but I must be the one who hasn’t done their homework. Incidentally, you know what’s actually been proven to work better than methadone? Prescribing heroin: http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2012/03/12/heroin-methadone-costs.html I’d support that a lot more.
Out of curiosity, how do you feel about things like safe injection sites and needle exchanges?
See, the thing here is you’ve proven to not know what you’re talking about, so we’re kind of feeling here that your knowledge of “ill-effects” are likely also based on falsehoods.
@CAT
But that is what illegalizing means. Fining or throwing them in jail for it, in effect stigmatizing them and making it harder for them to get treatment. Plus, above you said this:
Meaning, you thought there were certain classes of drugs that should be illegal without thinking through of the consequences of what illegalizing drugs entail.
Ha! You know what’s funny, Saturday night I went to this debate over God’s existence. Matt Dillahunty did the honors. Afterwards, I went out for drinks with the local atheist/skeptic group and Matt, and among them were a lovely young couple, and the woman reminded me of you, in features and stature. And she’s trying to get pregnant. She and her husband were super nice, I hope to hang out with them more. And if she does conceive, I’m going to have even more creatures to crochet!
The debate was pretty funny, by the way. The theist, a guy by the name of Jay Lucas, posited that morality is universal, therefore god. He did a lot of fear-mongering about how immoral an atheist society would be, bringing up Stalin’s gulag as an example. The audience actually booed him.
Matt Dillahunty is an extremely nice, good-natured, funny guy.
The Laughing Coyote, I like the woodburning.
My tomahawk has a handle too skinny to decorate, or even to hold on to. I cut some grooves into the handle, then whipped some string around it, then finally put on a leather strap arranged as if on a cross-country ski pole.
That strap really works well for me.
I don’t throw it, but I assume if I did I could account for the strap.
Most definitely, Dr. Audley. The Mr., who I love and live with and want to grow old and dusty with, loves strategy-based board games. Which is about on par with watching paint dry to me, except you can somehow lose at it as well. Our congruent interests, though, are many. We share the same feeling on Joss Whedon (which is rare, as we both hate his stuff), we love Golden age scifi, bad movies from the Iron Curtain, and anything with goat cheese. The person I’d say I have the most in common with (my Dad) is passionate about fishing, which I also can’t stand. But because we’re grownups, we don’t require full hobby congruence.
@SallyStrange
At least the godbot chose a dictator that was actually atheist this time. Usually they tend to go for Hitler.
I think it’s because it’s not so much an issue of quilters not understanding why joggers jog. That’s one thing, but depending on your locale and the circles you’re trying to get along in, not doing something that everyone does can significantly impact your social possibilities, and feeling like you don’t at all understand something that everyone does can feel really alienating. It doesn’t have to be drinking, it can be a total lack of interest in sports in a sports-saturated local culture. Hell, it can be lack of religion in a highly religious town. In those cases, I think it’s pretty natural for the odd person out to try and figure out what the deal is.
I can’t speak for CC or Nutmeg or anyone else but I’ve worked very hard on being socially acceptable, and part of that has been developing the habit of trying to grok things about other people that I don’t grok. It’s a survival mechanism.
Sally,
Awe, sweet! :)
I wish the best of luck to her and her husband– getting knocked up isn’t necessarily as easy as it sounds!
A lot of the time, it seems very much to me like it isn’t that whatever activity isn’t fun (like, there are definitely a bunch of movies and things I just don’t enjoy because they’re just not my thing), it’s that there appears to be something going on that I do not understand (which makes me anxious and frustrated) and maybe I would enjoy it (or at least be able to fake it) if I knew how it worked. This could be completely an illusion on my part, but I doubt it, and it is definitely what motivates that sort of questioning from me.
Like with dancing – I’ve moved from not getting it at the level of asking people to explain it to me as though I was an alien (why are they doing that), to now managing to establish that artificial movements, as David put it, can be okay things that I like to do and I am open to doing them around other people if I am feeling not very shy, and also knowing that what I am missing is the communication that is apparently going on between/among people who are dancing, and also knowing that it would be unlikely for me to enjoy dancing in a club setting because of the loud and touching. (Which is frankly a lot of progress.) It’s not that it’s not fun, it’s actually that I don’t understand it.
Happiestsadist:
With my Mr, it’s table-top role playing games. I’ve played enough of them to know that they’re, uh, not really my bag.
Anyway, it’s late and I’ve got a doctor’s appointment in the morning. Check you all later!
I met my Mr. through tabletop roleplaying. He was running a Call of Cthulhu game. We’re romantic like that.
G’night, Audley!
Yep. If you try it out, and you still don’t get it, and it seems like it’s how people make and maintain friends… then, if you’re me, you try to find somebody supportive to ask about it. At least try to pin down the problem. (Is there something I’m missing? Or is this one of those things that’s just not for me?) Usually, for me, that somebody supportive? Is Pharyngula.
Indeed. There were a few really precious moments from that guy, though. For example:
“I’m concerned that there are some people in this audience who may be okay with what happened in the Soviet gulag…” (This was in response to the booing, I think)
He asked everyone to dredge up their most painful memory, specifically including sexual abuse or assault, and ask how it would feel to think that the person who wronged them had an unanswerable justification for what they did (I was like, why didn’t this debate have a trigger warning???).
Since he was specifically defending Christian theism, Matt asked him about the morality of slavery, and he said that during Biblical times, slavery was “a social safety net,” I kid you not.
Good times. Matt could have pounded him harder but I think he was holding back some, plus the format made it a bit difficult. Also, they chose one of my questions to ask to the theist. “If someone convinced you that gods don’t exist, would you feel free to cheat, steal, lie, rape, and murder? Why or why not?” Of course, he never really answered it, he just said he’d be able to justify it.
…Unless, of course, you aren’t trying to. Then it seems to be super easy. *sigh*
Happiestsadist,
Just skimmed the article, but I’m pretty sure that the only reason the participants in the study stayed with the treatment program (didn’t relapse), is because they were recieving HEROIN instead of a less potent alternative. This is in the stage where the patients are weaned off the drugs, keep in mind. The study didn’t comment on what the patients did after they got out of treatment, which frankly is the most important piece of information to consider:
“drawbacks include a lack of data on opioid users reaching a state of abstinence and on the long-term patterns, the authors acknowledged.”
I’m kind of fed up and tired, and I can’t effectively respond to so many comments in one sitting, without leaving holes in my explanation because it takes me a long time to gather thoughts and type them up. I’m fucking tired and sick of being pitied for my age and ‘lack of knowledge’. And whose to say my apology was insincere. I meant it….I think more so at the time. I don’t know if I’ll ever feel welcome to come back.
*whines* I hate getting up so damn early for work, and on a Monday no less!
All right, done complaining, finishing up some stuff, then trying to sleep. I doubt that will succeed, since I downed hot cocoa and popcorn earlier. Feh. Night, everyone.
Not me.
I’m off to have passport photos taken. Remember Hitchens’ quote of the “celestial North Korea”? Try a visa application for China sometime, that must come close to what he meant. Sneaky little bastards.
@SallyStrange
What the heck?! Why did he even ask people to remember their most painful memory? It’s their most painful memory, people don’t want to remember them!
Also, what the hell was he trying to say with that? Because “God told me to” sort of seems like the ultimate “unanswerable justification” O.o
@CAT
Dude, you said something incorrect and people responded. That’s how criticisms generally work. I know taking criticisms can suck, but that’s how you learn, even if it makes you want to bang your head in frustration.
Thanks! What kind of tomahawk is yours? Mine are from Cold Steel, a modified Rifleman’s Hawk and a modified Norse Hawk which is the one with all the animal figures on it… (Good juju for hunting. ;) this tomahawk is ideal as a hunting axe owing to its curved Ulu-like blade).
Both my tomahawks have leather handle wraps. I’ve considered a lanyard (Which is what you describe with your ski-pole analogy, btw) but I never really use them to augment my grip and find they just get tangled and in the way. To each their own.
I also don’t throw my tomahawks. Throwing wears out handles quicker, and (while impressive as hell) is really more of something you do for show or in competition than an actual ‘survival skill’ you’re likely to use in any conceivable situation ‘in the wild’. I try to take care of my blades, keep them nice and sharp, use them with correct technique, if treated well they could very well last longer than I do.
Got pics of your tomahawk?
Yes, CAT, the difference is that they were given heroin, you know, the drug they were addicted to. And tapered off it. The actualfax evidence suggests that this is likely a better way of going about the matter. IIRC Switzerland is also looking into a similar plan.
You are lacking knowledge. Do some homework before you start judging things you know more or less nothing about. This is a very welcoming environment, and you can learn a lot here, but we have a very low tolerance for finger-wagging nonsense.
Well, at the time he was trying to make the case for universal, objective morality being evidence of god’s existence. So, he was basically making an emotional appeal, and also denigrating people’s innate moral sense and their ability to know when they’ve been wronged, by saying that somehow you’ll feel better if there’s an ultimate authority out there saying, “Rape is wrong. What happened to you is wrong,” than if you have the subjective impression that rape is wrong and what happened to you is wrong (not even addressing that Yahweh seems to be pretty okay with sexual abuse in a lot of cases).
It was pretty fucked up. I may have to write about it since Matt didn’t really have a chance to address that bit.
C.A.T., if you can’t handle reasonable criticism, then maybe Pharyngula’s not for you. Your loss, in my opinion.
Talk about sneaky : How WWII codes on Twitter thwarted French vote law
Good news related to illicit drug use: I have my pee test/fascist invasion of bodily privacy tomorrow. I fully expect to pass it. Once I get my first paycheck Imma track down some mary jane and get reeeeeeal high.
C.A.T.: rule of thumb, an apology that says “IF I did something wrong/hurt your feelings/etc…” isn’t a real apology, as it doesn’t admit responsibility.
Re drugs, I suggest reading this to start:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/02/16/harm-reduction-and-evidence-based-drug-policy/
Oops, borked link sorry, bloody wordpress ! try again
@Rorschach #328
I got a 404 error.
Looks like kristinc and CC have beaten me to this, and I agree with their points, particularly about things that everyone does. I’ll add my two cents:
For a lot of things, it’s not that big a deal. Who cares if I prefer milk chocolate over dark chocolate, for instance? Dark chocolate snobs might sneer a little, but no one takes it very seriously. But for some things, those of us who don’t “get” it are treated as in some way defective. I think that treatment is a bigger problem than the fact that we don’t understand.
Example: I don’t mind that much that I don’t understand dancing; I mind very much that all my friends force me onto the dance floor every single time there’s a dance floor to force me onto.
In my experience, at least, people seem to think there’s something wrong with me when I don’t understand things related to typical 20-something socializing.
That sounds like an excellent plan, SallyStrange.
I actually pretty much can’t indulge in recreational drugs thanks to medications. As it stands, I have to work out whether an occasional beer is a safe idea or if I’ll have to wait.
And now I’m feeling well enough to try going to bed. G’night, all.
QFT
Listen, this feeling of being out of it is so common, and it is easy to handle if one only wants to be a part of things.
At a pub/dance/social gathering with a bunch of people who are having a drink or two?
Go up to the bartender and order ginger ale in a beer glass. Sip it slowly. No one else will notice a thing unless you make an issue of it. It really isn’t hard.
It is understandable if you don’t enjoy the taste of alcohol or how alcohol makes you feel – or if you are not into weed and don’t want to smoke it – but, so what? People really don’t give a damn!
Seriously, your friends and acquaintances are much more worried about how THEY look to others and are paying no attention to you, I promise.
So, if you sincerely just want to socialize just realize that you prefer the refreshment of your choice and others prefer theirs. It won’t be an issue. If that is not what is wanted, then it is time to look at whether the problem is that *you* feel like a misfit, or if you feel that *everyone else* is wrong.
Everyone feels out of step, and if you remember that – that all those people who seem to be in the know are feeling similar feelings of “what is wrong with me?” – then you can relax a little and maybe enjoy yourself more with friends- living and letting live.
Part-Time Insomniac:
Please share.
FWIW, I don’t mind these discussions of what people like or don’t like to do for fun. However, having them has in the past forced me to realize that I don’t often feel the sting of judgement because 1) I have lead a fairly priveleged existence, and 2) see the privelege thing previous. Many people need further judgement in their lives like a hole in the head. What I may think is a rousing exchange is easily (and understandably) interpreted by others as sneering condescension–I have learned this here and the hard way. A light touch is probably best in this kind of sitch.
Nutmeg: I definitely hear what you’re saying on that one.
I do find that I can often explain very gently to people I know that while I don’t judge people who play sports or videogames, I have no particular urge to do those things myself. Sometimes they push a little, but eventually they ‘get it’.
NiftyAtheist: Good advice. I really like that.
What do people generally do when they smoke weed? They sit around and talk about stuff. There’s no reason you need to actually partake of the weed to join in on the ‘social’ part. Plenty of us were happy enough to have two less lungs to fill, so to speak, back in my young stoner days. A doobie, or even two doobies, can only be divided so many times after all…
niftyatheist:
I agree with most of what you wrote about everyone feeling out of place sometimes. This bit here, though:
I think that’s interesting, and it shows something about our society. Why can’t I just order water and drink it in peace, without having to pretend that it’s alcohol?
That’s what I really want, and it’s similar to what Audley was expressing upthread. I’d like to not be judged for avoiding what most people enjoy.
That was a rhetorical question, by the way. I’m well aware of why I can’t drink water in peace – many people my age can’t accept the idea that some people don’t like alcohol, and they will pester me about it.
[rant, not directed at anyone here]
To stop someone from trying to get me to drink, I will have to explain, first, that I am driving home that night. Often, this will not be sufficient (argh!). I am then forced to admit that I don’t drink, and of course the person will ask me why. The fact that I don’t like the taste will not convince them to leave me alone; they will insist that there is some fruity drink somewhere that I would like. I will then have to explain that I have extensive family history of alcoholism. This will do the trick, usually; however, I will have to see the expression on their faces when I tell them. I will know that they are thinking about which family members it might be, and wondering just how screwed up I am because of it.
This has been every night out since I turned 18. So, yeah, I’m just a smidge sick of explaining why I don’t drink.
[end rant. Again, that wasn’t directed at anyone here; I just needed to get it off my chest.]
I dunno if it’s ‘pretending it’s alcohol’ so much as ‘not making it obvious that it’s not’, but that may be the same thing in many people’s estimation.
I really hope this doesn’t come off wrong or anything, but you must remember that humans are social primates and tend to be curious about other human creatures in their midst, particularly at ‘social’ things. I’ve accidentally come off ‘judgemental’ when merely curious myself now and again.
My own lifelong quest to understand these strange hairless primates I’ve been born and raised amongst has only recently, within the last few years, yielded any kind of meaningful results for me, so take my advice with the usual grains of salt.
The Laughing Coyote, my tomahawk appears to be one of H & B Forge’s Shawnee Throwing Tomahawks http://www.hbforge.com/products/tomahawks.php . I honestly cannot recall where I got it, and am fairly sure I never really knew it was a thrower–I’d just assumed so from the slippery handle.
As for the lanyard, I’ve only seen bad drawings, and most look like they would only loop loosely around the wrist and keep the tomahawk from falling if dropped. I took a flat strap and screwed it on above my hand, so once I get into it, I grip it and it passes back over my wrist, tightly–I could climb with the thing.
If other folks are doing that, it’s the first I knew of it. Like I said, I copied off a cross-country pole, where the strap provides a lot of the push. So I learned something. Thanks.
I don’t use my tomahawk much, but I envy you yours–they sound familiar and good.
Also, my apologies, I didn’t see the ‘rhetorical question’ bit before I posted.
Well, you can, Nutmeg. But what people have complained about is feeling out of it because they do not partake and also that other people (friends) put pressure on – my suggestion was to ease that uncomfortable feeling. Ditto for weed (and as TLC pointed out, people actually appreciate it if there is no judgement along for the ride).
There is no reason why you can’t just drink water. Why would you have to pretend anything? Seriously, do your friends actually demand to know what is in your glass? I think you could have a glass of just about anything and no one would insist on finding out what it is, as long as you don’t make an issue of it.
Please forgive me if I am pushing, but I wonder if the problem (not just you Nutmeg) is more a matter of wishing social culture was different and feeling angry about that. This is understandable, but is really not the problem you are telling people here. THat is more of an “I’m OK, but other people are not OK” problem, which can make a person feel very uncomfortable, but is definitely not he same thing as “Other people are making me feel defective”.
The technical term for people like this is “jerks.” I can’t tell you what to do, but can only point out that I have been fortunate enough to befriend people of many ages, oddballs all, who would not dream of pestering someone who says they don’t drink. But then, I avoided the typical trajectory of high school –> college –career and socialize in unusual places.
Personally, I adore dancing, but could do without the crowds of people sometimes. I like observing them but find them irritating if they try to interact with me.
this EXACT series of steps happened to me. Then when the fruity drink was too nasty-smelling, they wouldn’t believe me. Sheesh.
Yes. It started with “Hey, why aren’t you drinking?” and went downhill from there.
Now I wonder if my bunch would’ve been such jerks about it if they hadn’t all had a few drinks in them already. Disinhibition, all that.
Not bad, Menyambal. My one gripe with most throwing hawks is the ‘perfectly round’ handle… I saw a few at a recent gun and blade show I went to for sale. Though it’s often fine for throwing, a perfectly round handle is hard to line up a proper chop with. You want it flattened at least slightly in the direction of the blade. This provides a good tactile sense of where the blade is and what it’s doing.
Cold Steel has a whole line of tomahawks in the 20-40 dollar range, though you need to do some work on them (and get rid of the stupid set-screw) to really make them ‘great’ (which the company encourages heartily).
Nutmeg
I’m guessing the people pushing booze on you are not friends of yours,
so I think you should go with lying.
“I’m on antibiotics for the infection I picked while hunting seals in Saskatchewan.”
“I’m serving at a Black Mass later. The Low Priest wants me sober.”
or
Accept the drink and throw up on their shoes.
TLC: Nope, no hard feelings. I can understand the curiousity, and it’s definitely a possibility that sometimes I misinterpret curiousity as judgment.
nifty: Okay, I can understand your suggestion as a way to reduce the need for explanations, etc. Thanks for explaining that to me; I might actually try that, next time I’m at a bar with a lot of strangers. It has been my experience that casual acquaintances care very much what’s in my glass, unfortunately.
My closer friends do appreciate having a built-in designated driver, and I don’t mind if they’re drinking as long as they don’t mind that I’m not.
I’m not sure if I entirely understand you here, but it’s late at night so I will re-read your comment in the morning. I do sometimes wish that social culture involved less drinking, not because I see any real problem with other people drinking, but because I would fit in better in a culture with less drinking. Of course, that isn’t a valid reason to pursue cultural change.
Anyway, various people here have raised a lot of interesting points. I now have lots of food for thought, both about society in general and my actions in particular. Thank you all for that.
Good night!
Ah yes, ‘jerks’. I do my best to simply not let their foolish braying affect me. I’ve had the usual pestering to get drunk, but I know how to dig my heels in. I’m used to being disliked, it was a constant condition of my childhood, and since being snubbed is familiar territory for me, it kind of gives me an odd sort of ‘advantage’.
Those that stick around and try to understand me rather than make me fit into their group are the ones I end up considering worthy of my loyalty. True friendships are based on so much more than getting drunk or high together. Whether or not you like or dislike getting drunk or high with your friends.
I can’t count or remember how many fair-weather stoner buddies I’ve just kinda ‘dropped’ over the years once I realized their loyalty was the same kind of ‘loyalty’ a bear at a national park shows to the humans who feed it. Some of them were just moochy idiots, some were genuinely scary and manipulative people. They’re all farts in the hurricane of life now as far as I’m concerned.
Hey y’all!
Several things:
1. Congrats on coffee/smoking, Audley. You know I know it’s hard, girl.
2.
It’s a stupid thought. It’s an authoritarian thought. I’m a former smoker who had a heart attack at 36 just more than a year ago and quit, yet I still identify as a smoker just to tweak people like you. Seriously—get the hell out of other people’s business. You don’t get to choose how I harm myself.
And go fuck yourself.
No, you’re not sorry. That’s what makes you such a condescending prick. Who do you think you are? You can be the boss of me when you’re the brain that animates my body. That is, when you’re me. Until then get your nosey self up out of my face and shut your piehole.
And also, remember the whole fucking-yourself thing.
3. Gave a public talk today in a well-known city and killed it. Had people rolling laughing and mobbing me afterward for questions and talk. Even people who’ve seen my dog and pony show before said it was over the top good. It felt so nice.
4. At said talk saw a bunch of people who haven’t seen me in five years or so. This is the conflicted part—they last saw me when I was very heavy (pre heart-attack). They didn’t recognize me, literally. I hate, hate, hate that this felt good, but it’s hard not to like it when people say you look like you’re in your mid 20s (I’m turning 38 this year) and cute college boys—college!—flirt with you. It’s been years since that happened. It’s petty, it’s vain, it’s buying into the judge-me-on-my-weight thing that I fucking loathe. But I couldn’t help enjoying it. Still not quite sure how much of a shithead I should feel like.
5. First business trip where I’ve left my laptop at home and took my tablet only along with my new compact bluetooth keyboard. Heaven. Except I packed the cord for my laptop. God. Damn. It. They’re so similar I’m going to have to label them. Now tablet is dead and I’m secretly clacking away on host house’s computer after they’ve gone to bed. Thank fuck they take their hearing aids out at night.
What in the fuck is there to feel petty or vain about? You lost weight primarily for your HEALTH, that is, to stay alive longer because you like living, right? This is all just a side benefit.
I personally would enjoy the hell out of it myself, were I into cute college boys and didn’t need to cling desperately to every ounce of weight I manage to have.
Josh
Browsing “In Private” is your friend ;)
Given the nature of This Place™ I have a hard time picturing you as anything but Faye Dunaway as Joan Crawford. (for some reason)
Almost 40 (sorry) 20-looking-gay-(mature)-boy does not compute.
Nice job Josh! Glad to hear you killed it.
And try not to beat yourself for appearing conventionally attractive. It’s a conflicting feeling, yes, but as TLC points out, it’s good for your physical health, and it’s good for your mental health… it’s a good thing. Enjoy it.
*smooches*
The Laughing Coyote, my tomahawk has a ridge on the front of the handle, which is great for alignment. I find it elegant because the hole in the head looks like the makers took a butterfly-shaped piece of metal and folded it over to make the axehead (sandwiching in a crescent of harder metal for the edge), leaving a naturally teardrop-shaped hole, and then shaped the handle to fit that hole.
But enough of the macho stuff. I want to brag on myself for my musical accomplishment, today.
I just got an electronic keyboard (a used Yamaha PSR 220 for $35) for the family–for my wife, mostly. I’ve been picking one note at a time on my ukulele for a year now, using tablature (where to put the fingers), not musical notation, and have no other formal music talent, skill, practice, experience or knowledge. Tonight I played “Love Me Tender”, one note at a time, after having worked it out by ear, just going by what sounded right compared to my uke, working from memory.
A year ago I would have been wondering why anyone would do that. Now I’m just wondering who designed the damned piano keyboard–I had to use one of the black keys, for cripe’s sake.
Hehhe- I am doing this in a private browsing session:) And the name you’re looking for, Chigau, is “Joan Dunaway,” or, if I’m feeling really wicked, “Crone Jawford.” I leave it to people who’ve met me in meatspace to tell you what I really look like. Underneath all this eyebrow and mouth clown-paint. LOL.
And yes, I did lose the weight so I WOULDN’T DIE. But being considered “good-looking” again is kinda nice. But it’s also kinda not, especially being as aware as I am of how brutally the gay male community (like some groups of women; don’t forget, children—-homophobia and the associated self-hate is just a baroque elaboration of misogyny, not a separate phenomenon) polices us for Beauty Compliance. In gay years I’m 68.
Menyambal- I have a Yamaha keyboard too, though I can’t remember the model. What’s important is having a *weighted* keyboard action that responds dynamically to the amount of pressure you apply as a piano would.
Don’t be afraid of the black keys. Music is daunting for a beginner whether it be guitar, piano, horn, whatever. But there’s more to life than C major and strummed guitar chords, and it’s worth some work, trust me:)
Musical accomplishment may or may not be ‘macho’ (something I know surprisingly little about,) but it’s something I admire because it appears to be a skill that’s forever beyond me. I can do a halting tune or two on a pennywhistle, but I can’t learn the kind of powerful stuff I hear.
I can stick a butter knife in a fire pit, heat it up red hot, grasp it with a wet paper towel, and burn animal designs into wood, among other artistic abilities which I try not to brag too much about without actually ‘showing the goods’, but I can’t do music. So I bow my head in respect to the talent.
Also, the higher carbon sandwiched between softer steel is a mark of quality in an axe or tomahawk. It’s a good design that’s been used for almost as long as steel has existed. The teardrop eye hole is also better than I expected, the ‘handmade’ ‘high quality’ tomahawks I saw at the gun and blade show were on sale for 60-100 bucks and had perfectly round handles and eye holes, as well as very thin steel all around.
Sorry, had to comment on that.
Coyote—-try it. Take lessons on an instrument you like. Really. You don’t know what affinity you might discover. I started piano at 32 and have a *terrible time* making my fingers do what my ear wants, and sight-reading scores is very, very difficult. But my teacher said I had an unusually good natural ear for melody and harmonic progressions, and I was writing pieces that were, well, quite good, if simple, in my first year.
It’s rare for an adult student to achieve anything near what a musician who’s trained since childhood can do. But it’s still extremely rewarding and the immersion in theory and actual practice on an instrument opens up *worlds* of music you didn’t even know existed. It’s quite amazing. You’ll find yourself instinctively singing harmonies and melodic variations on songs you’ve known all your life but never quite *heard* the way you do now.
It can be joyful even if you don’t excel technically.
Josh
Joan Dunaway it is.
What ever you really look like, this
[redacted*]
is what I picture when you school someone.
(*That was the “no wire hangers” scene. It’s way uglier than I remembered.)
Anyway: same level of outrage, but not so demented.
Um, what is that [redacted] thing?
This is true, and you’d be a fool to ‘let it go to your head’ and forget it, but somehow I don’t think you’re too likely to do that.
I can understand the sentiment. But you can’t control what other people do, you can only not partake of the bullshit behavior yourself and call others on it when you find them doing it.
I still see nothing wrong with enjoying the benefits with a clear conscience though, especially considering how aware you are of the flipside. I’m very simplistic though, I have an “Enjoy good things when they happen to you” sorta philosophy.
Josh
I was going to link to a youtube clip of “no wire hangers” but the clip freaked me out so I cut it.
Then, because of eebill alcohol, I posted the comment anyway.
(now I’m going to have a cigarette. shall I blow some smoke into the usb?)
(mwahh*cough*hahaha)
Chigau:
Yes, please. Mas smoke in the USB. It still smells sooooooo good to me. Cigarettes haunt my dreams. I had one the other night at a dinner party—my once-every-two-months-cigarette—and it was fab.
You needn’t link to clips from Mommie Dearest. Why? I’m going to tell you. And you’re going to look at me cock-eyed for the rest of the time you know me online, I’m sure.
I’ve seen that movie more than 500 times. Yes, five-hundred. For my group of friends it’s the Rocky Horror Picture Show. It’s the campiest, most over-the-top-gore-makeup-fest evah. I can recite the dialogue of every character in that film from start to finish without making a mistake. Yeah. Guinness should take note.
I first discovered it in 1990 watching the late movie on broadcast TV as a high-school drop-out in my seedy apartment (yes, my teen years were scripted by John Waters).
I called my BFF Michael.
“Girl! You can’t fucking believe the movie I just watched. Mommie Dearest. No, for real. Bitch puts on cold cream and then smacks her daughter upside the head with a can of Old Dutch scrubbing powder. Yes. No, not Bon Ami, that other one that’s just like it! Um, yes, I’m not kidding you. She put the cold cream on first.”
“I’m coming over with mac and cheese. You got a can of tuna?”
Thus an obsession was born.
Josh, it was great to read about your day. Congrats on it all.
Thanks for the music advice, too–I was wondering what “weighted” meant. This keyboard goes loud or soft depending on how fast I push down the key–I assume that’s it. (Why am I using so many em-dashes tonight?)
Coyote, I got started on my music with a ukulele, picking it using tablature (tabs), and learned a lot–plus I didn’t have to move my hands much. Get a uke for $40 and go to ukulele sites and on YouTube for tutorials on picking and strumming. It’s fun, and portable enough for camping trips.
(A PVC pipe didgeridoo is the most durable musical instrument I know of, and what I take on canoe trips, but I can’t call it formal music.)
Some dude(s) in the middle ages. I’m not sure if anybody knows who invented the very first keyboard like the one we use today. Some organs used to have just a row of levers, for various numbers of notes. Their positions, lengths and colors are different to help distinguish between them and give you a frame of reference, so that you don’t have to stop and read a tiny little label on each one just to know which note goes with which lever (or several at the same time). With practice that all becomes automatic, which is good, because thinking about it too much gets in the way. Anyway, black notes are your friend. Don’t be scared of them, because they’re no harder to play than white notes.
Menyambal:
1. em-dashes rock.
2. Almost, but not quite. A dynamically weighted keyboard should go soft or loud depending not on how fast you strike the key, but on how hard or gently you strike it. Gentle touch should equal soft sound. Hard pounding should equal louder, piercing sound. Like a piano.
In fact, that’s what the piano was named for. The original name of the instrument was the pianoforte. In Italian: piano=soft, quiet. forte=loud, assertive.
So the pianoforte was the loud-and-soft. This was in contrast to the other instrument with the same keyboard that was in wide use, the harpsichord. Because it’s a plucked instrument the harpsichord has almost no dynamic sound range. The pianoforte, by contrast, can be loud or soft depending on how its keys are struck.
Nutmeg, just meant that maybe you are gaining confidence in who you are and what you want/like etc (as mentioned in earlier posts too) and are realizing that wait a second, “friends” throwing alcohol at me, pushing me to dance, etc. are not getting “me”! Are they really right for me?
It may not be that the posters who feel out of step are actually feeling out of step so much as realizing that they are spending time with too many people with whom they don’t actually share many interests.
Maybe it is a good time to evaluate what there is to like in these friendships – and think about finding more friends with compatible interests!
Of course, there must be more to your closer friendships (and lets face it – events like weddings etc are pretty full of awkward moments for everyone, so maybe not a good one to base judgements on) so hopefully you can spend more time with them doing the stuff you do enjoy doing with them, while expanding your circle to find new friends who are more into what you are into.
Anyway, blah blah blah. I do go on and on. Sorry!
Josh, hello! Hooray for you for the successful talk!!
ITA with Laughing Coyote – enjoy feeling good.
chigau–shivers at the mommie dearest reference! But “Joan Dunaway” – awesome!
Night all!
Or, rather, the pianoforte was the soft-and-loud.
Josh
*puff*puff*
I
standsitslump in awe.I saw Mommy Dearest when it was released and have never been able to watch it again.
It’s on a small list of movies I consider to be brilliant but cannot watch again.
Deliverance
Taxi Driver
Brazil
(I have watched Network 8 or 10 times.)
Technically, it’s not how fast your finger moves but how much force is applied. A lot of electronic keyboards don’t, because they’re not made to take that information as input and modulate the sound accordingly. (Some which do are more realistic than others, but you’ll pay for it.) Any modern acoustic piano does, though, because that’s just how the mechanism works. Non-weighted keyboards are rarely useful, even for people who are just starting out learning how to play, because they encourage lots of bad habits. Which is bad. And they sound bad. Which is also bad.
Thanks for all the music info–good point about the pattern on the keyboard providing location clues (I’d prefer regular key shapes and a few black inlaid dots like on the frets of my ukulele). I will get used it, and I am enjoying learning.
I found a book on music theory after I got my uke, and I read it while waiting to give myself the uke for Christmas. The history of instruments is fascinating–I like that the scroll on the end of a violin used to be a horse’s head.
I don’t want to be one of those folks who get so used to the prevailing system that they absolutely cannot comprehend any other possibilities. I’m looking at mountain dulcimers just because they come in various tuning modes. And because a guy can make his do this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU2uU5KahP4
I am unfortunately a “supertaster”. It’s a genetic thing about 4% of the population have. And it’s not just that you “taste” things better — though I seem to savour my food more than a lot of people — it’s that one is more sensitive to certain tastes. It’s like having super-hearing that you CAN’T TURN OFF! The most common taste that supertasters can’t stand is bitterness.
So — me: I can’t drink coffee (though I love the aroma) I can’t drink anything but the absolute weakest, less-than-piss-colour jasmine tea, grapefruit is out of the question, and so on. And alcohol, of any kind is a *very* strong and extremely unpleasant flavour to me, to a large extent because of its bitter overtones, even in small amounts.
I spent years tasting and tasting hard liquors, beers, wines, cordials, wine coolers, etc., looking for a drink I could sip socially at a gatherings, but all to no avail. I don’t drink, period. I wouldn’t mind it so much, if others wouldn’t mind so much. What I did a couple of times was to make it a game. I would get the people-who-wanted-me-to-drink to have various drinks made up, rums-and-cokes, fruity cocktails, mimosas, 0.5% “non-alcoholic” beers, etc. with varying degrees of, and sometimes NO alcohol at all, with me saying that I could always identify if a drink had alcohol in it. I could always tell. And so now people say, “That’s Hairhead, he’s just weird!”
Once when I was forty, I got drunk, just because I wanted to know what the hell it felt like. Well, I didn’t like it at all, and the process (gagging on a carefully-graduated series of drinks over the course of an evening) was truly enervating.
I’m not judgmental; people can drink around me all they want, and I’m there to drive them home. Just don’t insist that I drink.
I can attest that Josh has quite the youthful appearance. He and I have that in common. I think it’s the rounded cheeks.
It strikes me that I’m approaching the age Josh was when we first met in person.
Nah, you totally want the whole key to be black at the very least. It’s a bigger, more easily recognizable stimulus, which is important when you’ve got to sort out 88 keys spanning your whole visual range. It’s also very important to have the additional, tactile stimulus of feeling the keys differently. This has to be a fairly big difference so that you don’t need to rely on vision or feel out minute surface details. Once you’re more familiar with it, you can practically go in a trance without paying much attention to any of that stuff. It just takes time.
The thing™ about drinking and getting drunk is that it takes alot of practice.
*drink a lot*puke*
*drink a lot*puke*
*drink a lot*puke*
Is for beginners.
If you want to get good at it, you must learn to stop before the puking.
also before the unconsciousness.
Just ask Louis (for example) (when he regains consciousness)
Chigau: And it’s been a lesson well learned for me.
And that is something I have never understood. Why people feel threatened by someone not conforming & trying to insist that they drink.
My biggest problem is remembering that my sister doesn’t drink so that I make sure that I have something to offer her when she visits. I’m much more concerned that she feels comfortable in visiting & enjoys herself, than that she has the same thing that I have. Can be a problem given I often only have wine or beer inthe fridge. Its got better since I have kids around!
And further back up the thread: Cassandra & Nutmeg. I understand what you mean with your posts about fitting in.
I still haven’t figured it out & so the only people I could call friends are (some) close relatives & SO. I’ve almost given up on the idea of actually having friends the way others do. I just don’t get what makes people tick & want to enjoy the company of others.
Let me clarify that. I understand why people want that. I do to. I just don’t understand how the mechanism works.
When you go “out” alone, you do whatever you want.
(library)
(coffee-shop with a book)
(bar with a book)
(etc)
When you go “out” with a group, you do what the group is doing.
Else why go out with the group?
C.A.T.
hmm, but alcohol is a recreational drug.
Now, I’ll say that I think that there are some things that are so fucking dangerous that they can’t be used, some time ago we had this talk about “Krokodil” (only google if you have a hard stomach), and I think that the world would be better off if it didn’t exist.
Thing was that heroine addicts brewed it up because the Russian war on drug cut their supply of heroine. So, yeah, heroine is bad. Krokodil is far worse, which is why, if you care about people, you prefer them to have heroine (recovering from an addiction is hard, most important is taht you need to have something to come back to. But if your flesh is rotting off your bones, better stay stoned). Much better: Methadone programs.
Best of all: Have a society that doesn’t make people feel like they need to escape from reality.
But if you take Canabis, probably the most dangerous about that is that most people smoke it. I’m not of the “it’s more like candy totally no problem” opinion. You need sensible rules with Canabis the way you need them with alcohol. Like don’t use it when you’re at work/in school, only use them when you know how you’ll get home and don’t drive etc.
There’s no sensible reason for keeping pot illegal and alcohol, or for that matter the killer cigarettes legal.
Will, respond more later, off now.
Carlie, thank you for linking to the Captain Awkward post – bookmarked!
Alethea, I’m so sorry to hear about the kitteh :-( I guess he just had an irresistable urge to be outside, maybe? But I’m glad the others are snuggling you.
David Marjanović, you are (an unusual circumstance!) Rong. Raw carrots are a delight, both taste and texture (with added bonus “I’m eating something healthy” points); it’s cooked carrots that are utterly vile (unless “disappeared” into soup or cake).
The Sailor:
Yes! I am building my Arsenal of Ideas! This is great. When GCSE exams are over, we’re going to have (I hope) a nice leisurely chat or three :-)
Re kids and drugs (legal and il) – we have allowed/invited the Spawn to taste from our glasses at dinner if they wanted to ever since they were, oh, about 10? 12? – result, both of them simply dislike both beer and wine and (afaik) feel no obligation to drink just because it’s cool. Also talked to Elder Spawn (who is over 18 now, legal drinking age in the UK) about not mixing, and about the pitfalls of alcopops – those ghastly sweet, relatively cheap alcoholic pre-mixed concoctions that are so popular among the young and impecunious (you whippersnappers appear to be on my lawn …). ES likes to have a drink with friends sometimes, but (again, afaik) seems to be very good at having a couple and then stopping. I wholeheartedly agree that total prohibition is counterproductive.
As for illegal drugs, yes to the Portuguese model. The “war-on-drugs” bullshit is nothing but a huge money-spinner for rich people and institutions on both sides of the law and a way for shite politicians to get right-wing votes. Legalise the lot, remove the incentive to deal with criminals, regulate quality (just like with alcohol) and provide help for people to get off them.
There were a tiny handful of heroin addicts in the UK before criminalisation. Now there are a hundred times as many.
Thank you Catnip! I really appreciate it. Going to try and chew it over with him a bit after the upcoming exams are over. Oh, dancing with actual steps – I’ve always wanted to do that! And never learned :-((( But Elder Spawn has decided to learn, and is doing it! And loves it, which makes me very happy :-)
Oh, and being pressured to drink when you don’t want to, nutmeg? I fucking hate that. It’s so condescending. I still remember being out with a group of friends, being offered “one more for the road” when I’d just finished the second and last drink I actually wanted, saying “no thank you” and being presented with another pint anyway. What part of “no thank you” did you not understand? I left it untouched on the table, and the idiot had the stupid to get offended.
Josh OSG yay for health and being chatted up by cute boys. I should be so lucky!
Menyambal, yay for the keyboard and incipient skillz :-)
C.A.T.:
Welcome to the Pharyngula lounge! :)
(Confrontational straight-talking is de rigeur, here)
Of course you’re welcome, if you can hack our standards of politeness.
(If you weren’t, you’d have been told so in no uncertain terms)
C.A.T.:
My, my, look what a little douchetart you turned out to be. It had crossed my mind that you might be the banned asspimple KaylaKaze but I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Consider that benefit gone. You really should try to pull your head out of your ass, Sugar. It’s tough to go through life with it wedged up there.
so, continued…
Yes, that’s why I’m carefull.
My mum is an alcoholic (and in denial, what’s worse), my sister noticed she had a problem when she was stopped by the police with almost 2 0/00 for picking up a pizza.
I think, I hope, I found another way to deal with my problems. By now I’m very grateful for fucking up college and not my healtth or marriage. I think college is easier to mend.
Happens in Europe, too. We do have a serious problem with binge drinking, especially of hard stuff to the point that kids die. When I was a teen, drinking was cool. I don’t know how much beer I drank and I actually don’t even like Pils.
I once got black-out drunk. Thankfully I was with good people and friends, so they just got me to bed. Alone.
By now I realize that my socilisation with alcohol was already problematic. I grew up believing that alcoholic beverages were what adults drank the way kids drank water. My parents always had a beer/wine in the evening and I remember more than one occasion when they were noticably drunk to the point of me being in discomfort.
Alethea
I think you missunderstood me. I think it’s a good idea to drown your sad with alcohol which is quite the opposite of what you’ve written.
And I’m sorry about your cat ((((hugs))))
CAT
Well, have you also heard the stories of people who happily use some drug or other once in a while and still have healthy, fullfilling lives?
That’s the point: Everything can be a drug.
Games can be, work can be, food can be. Wanna ban all of them?
CC Yay for bellydancing
Dunno
I usually dance because of the pleasure of moving my body to the music. Sexual and sensual definetly come into it. When dancing with a partner that can include mutual gratification. If it pleases him to hold a woman in a certain way, and pleases me to hold, touch, be held in a certain way by a man, where’s the problem? Actually, many of my partners* were gay men but enjoyed the touching, holding, feeling nevertheless.
Maybe look at it from the other side: people aren’t communicating a message too you, but about themselves
*I mean like “partner for a dance, not like pernanent dancing couple.
re: sodas
In Germany “organic brewed soda” has become quite popular. The nice thing is that they only have about half the sugar which greatly adds to taste.
+++++
Yeah, and I hate my neighbours right now.
The French villages and towns next to me voted more than 30% for the right wing asshole Marine LePenn
KG
Three cheers for new “career move”
re:coffee
I somehow couldn’t stand it anyway the first months of pregnancy. Well, I was vomiting all the time with #1 anyway. There’s somply a limit to my coffee intake or my stomach will give me trouble, but yes, no coffee at all is a serious problem.
I’m not supposed to drive a car before my first coffee.
nutmeg
In that case, there’s something wrong with your friends. I’m all for trying things out, but if you don’t like it, you don’t like it. When we still went clubbing Mr. went for a beer and music and I went for dancing. Problem solved. I didn’t force him onto the dance floor, he didn’t force me to have beer.
Yay Josh for good trip.
Nutmeg,
You have a perfect right to choose what you do and do not drink, even if it’s only tap water (example of a friend of mine in real life). It’s not even necessary to go for sugary, fizzy drinks that don’t make you feel well anyway. It’s none of anybody else’s business what you put in your mouth, but people don’t seem to realise that.
As others have said, if a friendship depends on doing something that you don’t want to do, it’s not a friendship. Just say you just don’t want to. A gentler, but slightly misleading way to deflect is “Not just now”. You can always ask why they think you need to justify your choice of drink – the chances are that they are just mindlessly trying to get you to conform with the group, and are not giving it a second thought.
If doing something you don’t want to do is important for group membership, it’s maybe the wrong group.
Yeah, I just want to add in a fuck you too CAT too.
I’ve tried to find a way to say how fucked up that attitude is but have failed. As a person who’s life has been flipped upside down and ruined in more ways than one by someone’s drug abuse, you are seriously not helping.
Am I the only one who noticed the superiority in CAT’s comment regarding students using Aderal and how it puts CAT at a disadvantage since CAT is better than those icky drug users?
Ugh. Making tobacco illegal? WTF? Talk about a way to fuck up so many people’s lives. There are jobs that already refuse to hire you if you smoke tobacco. Good lord, I’m going to go smoke several up that just pissed me off.
Oh good lord, forgive that barely readable post by me. It read fine in my mind, I dunno what I was thinking. D’oh.
There are people who don’t drink alcohol and take recreational drugs?
{Faints}
But seriously folks, who cares?
I mean really, who cares? Society is like a bus, not a taxi. We all have to share a space, pay our fare, and get off at a stop that (unless we are lucky) is a walk away from where we want to be. Some people will be {gasp, shock horror, coo stap me vitals etc} GETTING OFF AT STOPS DIFFERENT TO MINE!
I know, bastards.
Not only that, those stops may be before my stop, thus slowing my progress to my stop infinitesimally. Sure, it’s occasionally frustrating when the old biddy at the front of the bus tries to pay with a cheque or cannot find the right change, and sure we occasionally have to put up with rowdy youths. But guess what? Once upon a time you were that rowdy youth (to some degree) and one day you’ll be that old biddy (to some degree), so just remember that people treated you with some tolerance and will probably have to do so again one day and chill.
Seriously. Just chill.
Unless someone is actually hijacking the bus, or stabbing the seats with a stanley knife, or beating up the passengers, don’t get excited about what stop they get off at. Don’t get excited about the minor inconveniences of actually having to share a bus.
At this point I will link to Bill Hicks’ Relentless and Great Times On Drugs. Then I will end on the words:
Handle your high.
Louis
P.S. Seriously, that last thing cannot be said enough. So please judgemental folks, don’t assume that consumption of drugs/alcohol = problems. Whatever your high is from cat macros to cocaine, handle your fucking high. It’s nice to share and be with likeminded folks, but just work out that with 7 billion people on the planet, some of us are going to get by just fine doing things a different way from you.
Thanks for all the congrats. Sorry to hear about your cat, Alethea – that must be really upsetting; but I believe a lot of animals seek solitude when sick.
Oh, I’m certainly not saying I’ll stop work, if by “work” you mean focused, productive, socially-recognised activity – I plan to do the research I want to do and put it out there, and get back into serious political activism. I may even take part-time paid work, both to boost the income a bit and to give some structure to the week. But I won’t have to.
My dreams have been presenting me with some alternatives. One a few days ago included someone hinting they needed some literacy teaching – which I did some of on a voluntary basis years ago. In another, Mrs. KG was proposing we adopt a baby. That I wasn’t keen on, reflecting even in my dream that by the time it was grown I’d be approaching 80!
I will also add my commiserations for Althea and my congratulations for KG.
And announce that I am threadrupt-ish.
Louis
KG,
You are right, I did mean formal, paid work, but that’s because all those things you mentioned sound like fun stuff. Even though they take energy, effort & organisation!
In my case, I see the retirement age approaching & the finances worsening, leaving the option of leaving the workforce one that’s not appealing for me. I suspect though, that (perhaps in contrast to you?) my interests outside work are too sparse and underdeveloped for me to be able to imagine doing it full time. Either way, your plans sound great.
Alethea, I’m sorry to hear about your cat. It’s a harsh time for you.
KG, have fun!
How come that sometimes recipes are just absolutely counter-intuitive with no added reason as to why that is.
I just made prawn cake to go with tonight’s aspergus soup (recipe to follow) and the steps are
1) mix the batter
2) wash bellpepper, cut into small cubes, cook 15 min…
So that would be at least 20 min through which my raising agent would (quite) literally evaporate into thin air.
Oh, not mention that the actual step one is to preheat the oven, which would then go on for 30 min without anything inside of it…
So, here’s aspergus soup:
Peel and stumps of the aspergus you served the day or two before.
Boil in enough salted water for a long time (half an hour at least).
I had 1kg of aspergus, used the “waste” of those and boiled them in 2l.
Drain the stuff, keep the stock, now throw away the peel.
Melt butter in the cooking pot, lightly fry garlic and onion.
Add a bit of flour, stirr in.
Add a bit of the stock, bring to boil.
Add rest of the stock.
Add a cup of cream
Season with nutmeg, slat, pepper.
Add fresh herbs, I like chives
Fancy: whip cream. Add shortly before serving, keep a few spoonfulls. Serve in cups, add a spoonfull of whipped cream, freshly grounded pepper and chives.
I’ll report back on the Parmesan muffins and the prawn cake when we’ve eaten them.
I used to be that kid in high school who only ever drank apple juice or iced tea when everyone else was getting drunk. People kept pushing me to drink, asking me why I don’t want to, accusing me of being a fun-hating prude… Because apparently, fun can only be had while drunk. I would have had fun, sober, if they hadn’t pestered me all the fucking time. So, I get the whole “being annoyed by people who bother you for not drinking alcohol”.
But then I started drinking. I like wine, some beers. Cocktails when I have enough money. That doesn’t mean I always drink. If I’m in a mood for orange juice, I’m going to drink orange juice and still have fun that evening. Unless there is a jerk pestering me for not drinking alcohol. I hoped we grew out of that sometime soon after high school, but I have recently been out with people who apparently haven’t grown all that much. I’m not willing to go out with them again, although, the alcohol thing is one of the minor issues, they are also jerks in far more annoying ways.
Then there are people who have known me while I didn’t drink. Now that I do, they can sometimes get all judgmental about my drinking. Suddenly, my getting a second glass of martini as making them worried. Suddenly, they act like I’m one step from becoming an alcoholic. My best friend doesn’t like that my family has a habit of drinking a glass of wine after we have lunch together (mostly only on weekends, but sometimes during the week too). One glass! Again, I’m being judged. And it’s not only by people who don’t drink or drink less than me. No. There is also this nifty little thing called double standard where someone else’s drinking is perfectly ok, but mine isn’t. I’m a bit of an awkward wallflower, so my drinking must mean that I’m drowning my sorrows. Or trying to make myself fit in… which is , again, what others are doing too, but when little asocial me does it – it’s wrong.
And I’m sick of always being judged by someone. So I get why people were bothered by “Why would you do that?!” questions.
No, drinking water doesn’t mean I’m in a bad mood and not willing to have fun. No, drinking wine doesn’t mean I can’t have fun without alcohol. It just means that on that particular night that martini is part of the fun.
Just please, stop judging people. Whatever one does, there is always someone to judge you. It’s tiring.
Thanks so much for all the kind words. A neighbour found him and we took to the vet for the finale. It’s been a rough day for us, no matter how expected it was. Our vet agrees with several here that cats are very much prone to running away when they’re seriously ill. He may not have had all the kangaroo and painkillers we bought for him, but he did do it his own way.
What a day. I feel a bit weird commenting on anything else, but I don’t think I read anyone as badly condescending except C.A.T. And briefly Pteryxx, but ze apologised and explained. It’s mildly amusing to me that you can be in many groups, each of which use “Mundane” to describe everyone else. Everyone is always a mundane to someone else.
I might say that being pressured to drink seems to be a thing among the young. I have experienced it, but long ago. In my age group it’s “You don’t drink? COOL! Designated driver! YAAAAYYY!”
Sorry to drag this out, but I’m sitting around trying to pump myself full of water before my appointment this morning and I’ve nothing else to do.
kristinc:
You know what this says to me? That no one has bothered to look beyond the surface, stereotypical “likes” of a community to find people that share the same interests. You’d rather sit around being baffled by people than find something else to do and people that share your interests.
The “everybody else is doing it!” argument is old. We’re all intelligent adults here, we should all be able to figure out what we do and don’t like to do.
And if nothing social interests you, once again, so what? Don’t do what you don’t like to do. But don’t treat the rest of us as if we’re some interesting fishbowl experiment simply ‘cos we do get it.
Sally:
Ding ding ding ding ding!
I stopped drinking while out in bars and restaurants months before I became pregnant– I just didn’t feel like spending the money &/or stumbling home early in the morning half-cocked. My friends didn’t even ask why I was sticking to club soda. Honestly, I don’t think they even cared, they just wanted to hang out, alcohol or not.
I always wonder if there are people who actually do preheat the oven as the first step. Especially when it comes to recipes which need long preparation. Imagine the waste.
I also hate how preparation time in a lot of recipes assumes you are Gordon Ramsay (or someone being yelled at by Gordon Ramsay in which case survival instinct makes you work that fast).
Alethea,
*hugs*. Losing a kitty sucks.
So looking for a bit of advice I think…
When I was in undergrad I had to make a choice between bio and cultural anthro, and due to a pretty serious illness I picked the easier option (in my case cultural). I kept with the “softer” side through my MA in sociology, but I kept thinking about going back to the harder science side. 10 years later I think I might be ready to go back and do bio anth, and browsing around yesterday I ran into what may be the perfect program. However, I’d have so many damn prereqs to do I’m trying to figure out where to start. My gut call is to email some of the faculty at the program and ask them what to them makes an applicant competitive, and what science background they look for, but I have no idea if that’s a really stupid idea or not. Thoughts?
Alethea, my condolences. I’m glad you found him and that the end was painless (I remember learning, in the case of First Dog, that it’s an overdose of anaesthetic that they use). Extra-large hugs to you, if I may.
Interesting fishbowl experiment, no thank you! Friendly helpful resource to explain or discuss the socially puzzling pheneomena, sure, by all means! Happy to be in that. And so there’s another potentially tricky line to negotiate.
Alethea H. Claw,
I’m sorry for your loss.
Alethea
I’m so sorry
It’s always hard to lose family members, and yes, I count the furry critters amongst them.
And you could give him the advantage humans don’t get, a quick and painfree end
(((hugs)))
Alcohol, again
Something similar.
Usually bars don’t cater the stuff I actually like and if they do it comes at a price I’m not willing to pay. The only thing tolerable in bars usually is gin tonic.
I drink because I like the taste of the drinks.
That means a good glass of red wine with dinner, good single malt whisk(e)y. A pastis (French anisseed liquor that you mix with water) on the balcony in the summer. Sipping champagne out of each other’s bellybutton *ehm*.
And I do like the lightly drunk feeling. I don’t like being drunk. I don’t like losing control so badly (and it is absolutely irresponsible if you have small kids in the house with you) and it also inhibits sexual pleasure.
As for social function: If there can’t be a compromise there can’t be. In that case you need other friends. If they can’t tolerate that you don’t dance/drink/play WoW they’re the wrong bunch anyway. BUt if you can go somewhere all of you have fun each in their own way, or just join them when they go for the movies, fine.
There’s nothing wrong asking why somebody likes something, but I think we can all agree that there’s a broad range of healthy pasttimes.
Oh, we tasted the parmesan muffins, they’re good, here’s the recipe:
1) grease a 12 muffin tray (or use papercups)
2) get your ingredients ready
3) now preheat oven to 180°C
4) mix 240g flour, 4 tsp of raising agent, 100g finely grated parmesan, 1 tsp salt, dried thyme
5) mix 300g yoghurt, 2 eggs and 2 tbsp oil
6) stir into dry ingredients, fill into forms, bake for about 20 min.
@ Alethea
Sorry about little Plummet.
@ KG
Wow, that sounds fantastic. I understand completely what you mean about now being able to be more productive. Pareto Principle applies.
And alcohol? What about that life wrecker? Guarantee alcohol has wrecked way more lives than either of the above, combined.
Pubs have long been such critical social centres and creative centres in my life. They’re where I meet people, where I go to get away, so on.
I do absolutely drink alone. Or I’ll start by doing so. If 1-2 pints* counts as drinking, exactly. And what Hitchens said about that. It’s not just a social lubricant–it’s also a mild mood alteration. To be handled with care, mind… And for creative work, I find it slightly dampens my ‘That’ll never work’ reflex. What is likely to come out after a pint and a bit is extremely unlikely to be brilliant on its own (it doesn’t help with the polish), but good beginnings come out that way, I find. Stuff I’d almost certainly have said ‘Rubbish/don’t bother’ to otherwise, and for which, on reflection, that would have been a shame. So I’ll often bring along a laptop or smartphone into which I can dribble some text, if the mood takes me. And honestly, I sometimes wonder if the companies I’ve worked for had any idea how many of my better ideas came initially from such times, if maybe they’d mandate having one or two on occasion for their technical and creative staff in general.
But also what Hitchens said about not drinking when you’re down. The trouble is the curve. Generally, it’s a very brief, mild euphoriant, and then it’s a longer term depressant. Not really a good thing, at all, if you’re already in a funk.
I’ll also mention, however, in my experience, I never seem to drink alone for long. I’m one of those people other people approach. Sure, it cuts into creative time, but hey, whatever; it’s all material, and people are interesting (or most of them are enough so). I go into a pub, have one or two, the odds are excellent someone will approach before long, and I’ll wind up talking to them. Probably, I might also have considered being a bartender**. As people seem to like to tell me their troubles. And things other than their troubles. But people like to talk to me. And I’m assuming it’s something about the context, the atmosphere, and yes, probably the chemicals, because while this tends to happen to me just about everywhere (latest example: sitting waiting for the shuttle home when dropping off my car for some brake work, and the women next to me wants to talk about smart phones), the percentage is highest in pubs. I sit at the bar, I’m going to wind up talking to the middle-aged English couple just over for the weekend, the slightly intense Vietnam vet up from Cape Cod, the very drunk Quebecois student and his bud…
I figure it’s an ancient tradition. In days gone by, pubs were social centres–the meatspace equivalent of this very thread. You could make the case that maybe the alcohol may be, after all, an unnecessary component to that–and I’d grant anyone pointing it out the other social problems that do swirl around alcohol–and I’d also acknowledge it’s a funny thing about people: we also seem to want to add something else to any social mixing thing: you so rarely meet just to meet; you have to meet ‘for coffee’ or ‘for drinks’, or, of course, in that other social centre opposite the pub, to sing hymns to someone who’s not, actually, there…
But then again, the pub thing, it seems to work pretty okay–for some of us, at least. Some pretty decent revolutions came out of pubs. And as an accessory to use as an excuse for socializing, I think you could do worse than having a drink or two.
(*/I’d totally be an ideal candidate for Mitchell and Webb’s Knights Tippler… as I’ve previously mentioned somewhere around here, somewhere around one and three quarters of a draft, I tend to peter out, pretty reliably, anyway. Indeed, my body pretty much insists. Unless I’m going very, very slowly indeed. So getting actually seriously sauced, for me, is very, very rare.)
(**/True fact: Bartenders not infrequently tell me their troubles. So I guess I’m sorta like a bartender’s bartender.)
Hitch:
Gilliel:
Lovely. I also like a little pastis in bourbon.
Muse:
That’s a great idea. It’s what I would have recommended. Also, if you can identify a few faculty that you might like to work with, read some of their papers and shoot them each an e-mail clearly stating your intentions, background, and questions (find out if they plan on taking on graduate students!).
Also be aware that the funding environment is completely in the shit right now, and competition has become increasingly fierce, even in the 8 years since I’ve been out of graduate school. Although I’m in a different field of biology, I have sat on a few panels that award grants to PhD students. The caliber of those proposals is generally very good—much better in fact than when I was on the submission end.
I don’t recommend that anyone enter graduate school right now (even in the sciences) unless they are really committed to the field of study. It has a low probability of being a lucrative decision, so you better love the work.
Absolutely. It’s a little bit like gambling, doesn’t just ruin your own life (and brain and liver), but that of your loved ones and family too.
My mother and her partner used to open their first beer at 11am in front of me and my brother. My own career was beer at age 15, Lambrusco at 17, Wermouth at 19, Whiskey at 35, and downhill from there. The brakes are on now, but more needs to be done, old habits die hard.
Rev BDC Quoting Hitch:
How is it that one person can be so right about so many things? (Granted, he was very wrong about some things.)
PTI: I know that dialect map. It’s amazing. Then again, I like both language geekery and looking at maps.
Sally, Jay Lucas sounds like quite a piece of work. Matt Dillahunty or someone else really ought to clue his privileged ass in to the fact that you don’t invite your audience to trigger themselves just so that they can help you prove a rhetorical point.
So can I.
Happiestsadist:
So do I. The fact that his work passes for “feminist” says more about the piss-poor treatment of gender on TV than it does about his work. (Look up the phrase “fighting fucktoy,” which was featured in the documentary MissRepresentation.) Don’t even get me started on the racial skeeviness of the Serenity-verse.
CC:
I understand, but the impression I am getting of what you’re saying is that if I or someone else is put off by how such an inquiry is worded, and we voice our discomfort, we’re somehow depriving you of support.
C.A.T.: Stop whining. You came in as a total newbie and dropped a fuckload of ignorant judgment on people. And, yes, your apology was three hedges in a row — “I’m sorry if I offended you,” “I didn’t mean to,” “I was just voicing my opinion.”
Chigau, #348: BWAHAHAHA.
And, yeah, the tendency to imagine people as their avatars is pretty widespread.
Josh:
♥
Awesome!
Also… enjoy the attention. Really. It doesn’t make you vain; it makes you human.
Nifty:
I agree. I realize it’s extremely hard in some geographic areas to find like-minded people to hang out with, but the internet is helpful for that.
Giliell: How krokidil became popular sounds a lot like how meth became popular in the U.S. If you prevent people from getting high with relatively safe substances, they’ll cook up shit out of toxic chemicals. That the effects differ is beside the point.
When Americans refer to Europe as a model for healthy drinking, they’re thinking of the Latin countries. Northern Europe and the UK most definitely have binge cultures.
The best brewed soda I’ve ever had was Sprecher’s Cream Soda, which contains real vanilla and honey. Holy shit. Total mouthgasm.
I was told the other week by a friend who’s a pro chef that the best way to make the flavor of spinach “pop” is to add a little nutmeg. Ideally, you shouldn’t be able to taste the nutmeg at all in the finished dish. Totally counterintuitive, but she knows what she’s talking about.
J_A_L:
No, you aren’t.
Alethea, condolences again. As much as it would have been lovely for you to be able to hold Plummet during his last moments, try to hold in your mind that it felt right to him, as a cat, to be alone and hidden when he passed on.
KG, hope you get to kick some Tory/EDL arse. :)
AJ:
Well, in the case of people meeting for the first time, a pub or a coffee shop provides a safe public place to meet (usually), and a drinking vessel, and a spoon in the case of coffee or tea, provides something you can fiddle with in case of nervousness.
I’m not one for public ritual much, but I do like the little rituals surrounding coffee and tea drinking.
Rev. BDC, quoting Hitchens:
Probably for the same “reason” women aren’t as funny as men: It’s more important that a woman not be a boner killer than that she have fun or express herself as she likes.
The polls are open.
Albertans get over there!
Yep thought about not including that part of the quote, but figured everyone is probably pretty familiar with Hitch’s misogyny issues and it was part of the whole thought he was discussing.
Ms. Daisy Cutter
In which case they’re wrong again.
I have an article in one of my “Spanish magazines for people who aren’t native speakers” (maybe you know those magazines that write articles about the countries/cultures in different language levels for learners) about the problem of binge drinking amongst Spanish youth, and that was well before the crisis.
Giliell: Ah, OK. Is the American impression merely outdated, or has it always been incorrect?
I guess I’m another of the non-drinkers. Partly because I think I’ve got the ‘can taste it and it’s bleah’ set of genes. Yes. I have tried sipping things. The very few things I haven’t found unpleasant were so strongly flavoured that yes it masked the alcohol, but you know, aniseed balls (confectionary) are a lot cheaper.
Has it restricted my socialising? Probably. I rarely go to pubs or other areas where people are doing a lot of drinking. Occasionally I go to parties where other people are drinking, and I’ve definitely acted as designated driver a couple of times. The friends I have now don’t try to convince me to try getting drunk, though I’ve had some acquaintances that have suggested it. Even when I go to the parties where other people are drinking I frequently feel uncomfortable. It’s not that I think that the others shouldn’t drink if they don’t want to, but that when they are they drunk, they are slightly different people. Which includes being uninhibited about starting up That conversation about That topic that starts me down the spiral into tears (which topic it is depends on the person). So I just tend to get stressed in those situations, and if a good friend isn’t going to be there then I just don’t go.
I have a few control issues too, and don’t want to see what happens to my temper if I’m not holding onto it.
On the other hand I do like to dance. I tend to feel terribly self-conscious though so only do so either at local SF con masquerades where nobody really cares, or in more formalised dancing things where I know what I’m doing. I like the feeling of moving my body with the music. I don’t go to clubs as I find them too loud.
What can be hard, especially if you’ve grown up in the situation where you found it hard to make friends at all, that when you do have people you think of as friends, even when they start acting like jerks, it can be hard to call them out on it, since the fear of being alone again is strong.
I’m not sure if that was terribly coherent but it’s getting late here. Apologies if I’m rambling.
I never drink.
7C/44F here tonight. What is this, Siberia ?
Working with malathion today.
Just one comment on it
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
*claws at nostrils* WHY WON’T IT STOP!? WHY WON’T IT STOP!?
Ms. Daisy Cutter
AFAIK, this was kind of a lot like in the northern countries: something that was always there (or at least for 30 or 40 years) and has become a lot worse.
In my teens, which is 20 years ago we did get drunk. But we’d get drunk on soft stuff. Lead to lots of vomiting and such, but no “real” damage.
Nowadays the kids drink schnaps, vodka, hard stuff. Which means they may actually miss the vomiting stage and black out while there’s still a lot of unabsorbed alcohol in their stomachs.
More or less same seems to happen to the Spanish youth: They used to gather wuth some wine on the Plazas and have a good night out on a low budget. Nowadays those nights often end in hospital.
BTW, I didn’t know you could make spinach without nutmeg.
And old cook’s joke is that when they start their aprenticeship they’re given a grater and a nutmeg to use. By the end of their three years they can keep the grater but have to hand back the nutmeg.
To me it’s like cinnamon in savoury dishes: if I can identify it, it’s too much.
Over here it’s mixer drinks. In particular Vodka + some berry flavor, or whiskey + coke/Red Bull. Especially the hard alcohol plus energy drink mixers are in high demand, and the caffeine keeps the kids going even when the alcohol intake is already at a dangerous level.
Smart Ass Cripple takes on graduations
ugh, vodka and red bull. The drink of meatheads ever where (apologies to any meatheads or vodka and red bull drinkers here).
When I was a bartender I could almost always pick out the vodka and red bull drinkers as they approached the bar and i knew not to expect a tip of any kind.
/broad generalizations
KG, that was such a nice post to read. So glad you’re in a good place!
If I could touch on the earlier conversation, it’s definitely a matter of how you ask about it. “Why would anyone want to do that” implies that the answer ought to be that no, nobody would. Saying “What do you like about that” or “I’ve never tried it, could you tell me more about it” is a lot less confrontational.
Are there any like that appropriate for teenagers? Mine is in the very early stages of Spanish and it would be nice to have something for him to want to read.
Alcopops as they were called seem to have gone out of fashion again. Bacardi Breezer and that stuff. But the danger with them was more that kids were drinking it like lemonade and didn’t realize much they were getting drunk, thus leading to bad drinking behaviours, so to speak, not so much that they’d drink themselves into the emergency room.
I’m not much clued in on the energy-drink stuff.
I know that for some time it was illegal to mix red bull and alcohol, or they were discussing to outlaw it or something like that.
Americans assume Europeans drink better because quite frankly now a days the “Europeans are better at _________” assumption is the safe bet. Both because of our vast inadequacies and because Europe is such a wide net.
Malathion is so bad I just had the fire safety come in to investigate a call on the odor.
Well the big kurfluffle these days are drinks like FourLoko which are highly caffeinated alcohol containing drinks. Flavored like sweet fruit juice. They sometimes call it beer but that makes me want to punch little puppies in the throat when they call it beer.
Feel-good story of the day: boy lost soccer ball of sentimental value in the tsunami of last year; boy gets it back after it washes ashore in Alaska.
story
There have been deaths over here from consumption of alcohol + energy drinks, something like 7 or 8 Red Bull plus whatever booze. It is not rare. I see jittery folks with palpitations and dehydration following this kind of thing all the time.
cheers, nite.
I suspect that among the ranks of those who will not leave it alone when someone indicates that they’re not interested in drinking alcohol is possibly a reaction to a perception that they are being judged. Along the lines of: They don’t want to drink. They must think drinking is bad. I am drinking therefore they must think I am bad. I must convince them that drinking is not bad and that they should drink because then I will not be bad.
In other words, it’s all about them.
Oh dear, is that the time. I need to get some things done and go to Zzzz.
carlie
Seriously no idea for the states. The one I buy to use in classes is made especially for Germany, with vocabulary in German and such.
Maybe ask at a good public library or bookstore.
You should preheat your oven if what you’re cooking will be in the oven less than 20 minutes. Otherwise your food may be undercooked. If you’re cooking for more than 20 minutes, bung the stuff into the oven and set the controls to Warp Factor 5 (or whatever is appropriate).
In ‘great triumphs of the working world’, today, I managed to shut down someone who clearly really wanted to pontificate on a truly painful complete waste of time/annoyingly unrelated side issue, in a meeting, before he burned like 25 minutes of my and one other guy’s time, by telling us both something we already knew anyway purely to hear the sound of his own voice.
(Without even literally saying ‘shut up now you annoyingly stubborn windbag; we really don’t care*’… Tho’ I think that was clear enough from subtext and tone.)
I am now flush with this victory. I believe I’ll have a drink** to celebrate.
(Also, I’m available*** to chair your meetings, if you’d actually like those to get to the point and get done. Call me at 1-888-5-SHUT-IT, and ask to talk to one of our helpful operators.)
(*/Tho yes, technically, the words ‘don’t care’ did, in fact, arise in my passing on this topic.)
(**/No, not actually.)
(***/Also not at all actually.)
Rev:
Ha!
Thanks again to everyone for their thoughts and opinions.
I was not at my best when I opened this can of worms yesterday. Correctly anticipating how people will react to my thoughts is difficult for me at the best of times, so I probably should have waited until I was less frustrated with my recent experiences.
Thinking it over before bed last night, I realized that I asked those questions here because I couldn’t ask them, at least in the way that I wanted to, in real life. That probably should have been a clue to me that I needed to think more carefully about my phrasing. I was looking for an explanation of behaviour that doesn’t make much sense to me (and I appreciate the efforts of those who tried to explain it), but I didn’t intend to make anyone feel judged.
Usually, I think the Internet’s tendency to make people say things they wouldn’t in real life is a feature, not a bug. But in the future I will think more carefully about whether my comments here would be hurtful in real life.
In case anybody is feeling too cheerful about humanity right now, someone on one of Ed Brayton’s threads linked to this post. TW for GLBT bullying.
Anyway, I’m back from the doctor’s office, yay!
I’m healthy, yay!
I have ultra-sound pics*, yay!
Everything’s progressing normally, yay!
And I’m out of yays. :p
*At 13 weeks, my passenger is quite adept at doing jazz hands.
yay! for Darkfetus!
Band and Superhero name.
I can’t drink alcohol – well, I can, but it isn’t pretty. A doctor I had for decades (literally) told me, when we figured this out (the hard way), that something* in me processes it wrong or doesn’t process it at all, and I basically go from “sober” to “alcohol poisoning” in no time flat. This is also assumed related to my reactions to other drugs – the ones we know of are THC and cocaine, but at least I got the cocaine “allergy” legitimately from my father. And, yes, I know, because of little things like novocaine and lytocaine.
So, I’ve never been drunk, and I’ve never been buzzed. And I likely never will be (the risks are just too much, though the same doc told me that it would probably be “safe” to do LSD). I get invited to parties a lot to be a designated responsible person, which may seem like a “yay, I get invited to parties a lot!”, but really it’s a burden of responsibility when everyone else is expected to just relax and have fun.
It’s also one more thing that makes me feel like an outsider – which is what CC was talking about, I think. There are many things that people do that I “don’t get” intuitively; I may understand them from a logical or deductive level, but I don’t experience them. The statement of “try it and find out” doesn’t work, because even doing so leaves me still with the sense of “not getting it”.
A good example is the sense of “going home” that a lot of people seem to have: this notion of a place of comfort and relaxation that’s theirs. I honestly don’t get that, or what I think they’re getting: I’m as comfortable on the road in a hotel room as I am in my own bedroom. I can sleep and relax and enjoy myself equally. But, I often hear from people that one of the best parts of a vacation is returning home to “their house” or “their kitchen” or “their stuff”. So, I’m left wondering if other people are experiencing something I’m not, or if I’m just more comfortable other places than they are, but I usually assume it’s the former.
I do think, realistically, it’s part of being non-neurotypical with me. I don’t identify with people. That isn’t to say I identify with anything else, but I don’t feel like a member of the human race. I think the “tribe” part of my brain is broken in such a way that I always feel like an outsider. I’ve learned to fake empathy, and to deduce how to react to various situations, and to fake emotional responses in certain contexts, but it’s acting. That isn’t to say I don’t like the results – I like people being happy and feeling (more) comfortable around me, and I certainly prefer it to them feel estranged, it’s just not my natural reaction or behavior.
That isn’t to say that all non-NTs are in the same boat; it’s complicated by the fact that I express some Aspy traits and have (diagnosed) moderate ADHD, but I know many (most?) spectrumites still display and react to real empathy. So I don’t have a handy diagnosis to wrap around it. But there are honestly days when I worry about being (or becoming) a sociopath.
So, I second CC’s honest version of the “why would you do that?” question (rather than the rhetorical one, which I know is what most people were referencing), even if most of the time I’ve stopped asking at this point: I simply assume (as shown by history) that I won’t “get” the answer anyway. It’s the old “explain color to a blind person” situation.
The “problem” with not getting it is… well, it’s fine most of the time. There are days when I just get in the car and drive out to the beach to sit and watch the waves because the loneliness hits. I know it’s there, and I don’t want to avoid feeling and expressing it, but I also don’t want to inflict it on others (who never seem to get it and can’t help anyway), so I just go. Most of the time, it’s just background noise and can be safely ignored.
Robert Anton Wilson wrote a passage that reminded me of what it’s like:
I’m not Beethoven, and I’m not deaf. But it does feel like there are 250,000 miles separating me from the person sitting next to me, and sometimes you just have to say so. The best poetry I’ve ever written has been when the loneliness hits.
So, there’s that, at least.
* She gave me specifics, but I can’t remember. I think it was something about a second-stage enzyme either being lacking or broken so that the result of breaking down most poisons seemed to end up worse than the poison itself, but this was 20 years ago and I’m not sure how much she knew and how much she was assuming (as well as how much I’m remembering correctly). I know she did a liver biopsy (which I thankfully slept through).
Totally a side track – I know there are people here who can do woodworking well, may I ask for advice? I’m trying to design and make myself a little portable foldable footstool*, due to the shortness and all, and the fact that I’ve found myself several times in the last year desperately doodling designs of such during meetings when my legs are killing me. I assume that aging has exacerbated what used to be the minor annoyance of leg dangles. I finally thought of something approximately like this, with a hinge in the middle so that it can flatten out and then fold in half like a book. My question is, what would I use to hold the rest of the strips together so that they could be curved to the half-circle shape and hold it well but also flatten out? A heavy metal wire of some kind, or are there hinges that could do that configuration?
*yes, I know you can buy them. I don’t like any of the ones available for various reasons, mainly because I want something that can both fold flat to a rectangle AND have the main portion at an angle, and those two criteria are kind of in opposition to each other.
James Randi’s partner, Deyvi Pena AKA Jose Luis Alvarez, has pled guilty to passport fraud.
Had a fun encounter with a creationist today. Presented the usual evidence. Ended up saying “Me biologist, you stupid creationist. We talking biology. Me win.” Thought I’d take it down to his level. Didn’t work.
I’m just popping in to say that, having quit a fairly serious drinking habit in my 20s, the people who notice and then comment and pressure non-drinkers are very likely to be people with drinking problems. Not always, but it’s a good bet.
The only problem I have being around people who are intoxicated with one substance or another is that their personalities can change a LOT, and it’s hard to know whether to trust, rely on, or relax with what they say, since there’s such a difference between tipsy/high person and sober person. The more intimate the relationship, the harder this is for me.
Nutmeg (247),
You think you should have worded things more carefully? I guess it’s always a good idea. But from the –socially speaking– very happy situation I currently enjoy, your ‘transgression’ was really slight, and mostly expressed frustration (like CC’s posts), rather than anger or judgement. Yet I certainly could have dealt with more anger on your part — I have some memory and know how very hard it was for me twenty years ago and how lucky I feel today. Had I read the thread some hours ago, I simply would have explained, maybe even corrected, you about why I do want to do some things.
By this I mean that in my opinion you and CC have got a couple of over-the-top answers that shouldn’t be taken too seriously. On the other hand, you’ve provoked some very interesting ones, like AJ Milne’s or Richard Austin’s just above. So thank you.
Something like 26% of the people in the U.S. of legal drinking age don’t drink alcohol, for one reason or another, I read a few years ago. It’s not rare, but people tend to hang out in pastime groups, and if your group’s pastime includes getting liquored-up, they may think you’re odd. I found as a giver of parties that if I put out sparkling water, fruit juice, and soft drinks, many people wouldn’t bother with the alcohol. Of course, there was always _one guy_ who would drink everything in descending order of preference.
If you’re drinking a fizzy drink or tomato juice, who’s to know that there’s no alcohol in it? The alternative is to take one drink and wave it around forever without drinking it.
I found with people who would insist on refilling my drink, that if I’d had enough I simply wouldn’t drink the last one, and that kept everybody reasonably happy. I agree that they’re probably people with drinking problems who want to convince themselves that everyone drinks a lot to have fun.
Carlie, two fold-in triangles or parallelograms?
Welcome in, betelgeux!
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*running in circles, screaming and shouting*
This is the point at which I would (if moving wasn’t feasible/desirable) start trapping the windows and doors, to at least make a hellish-awful racket when messed with. And maybe some of those little pull-apart fireworkesque poppers.
–
Welcome in, C.A.T.!
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The only social circumstances in which I’ve ever felt comfortable, whether alcohol-fueled or not, were ones in which the group was self-selected to some particular interest; D&D, or SCA, or Skepticon, or comic-store Halloween parties, for instance. Others just find me seated as far out on the periphery as possible, and I leave as soon as it’s feasible.
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*chorus*
Hi, Caine!
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P-T I, the last time I danced in public was the SCA dance practice at which I half-killed The Husband turning the wrong way, hands linked, at speed. Thereafter, I stuck with playing music for the dancers.
The time before that…hmmm…. Fifth grade? which would have made me10-ish? Just before I quit ballet class for beginning band, anyways.
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…and pull back a bloody stump….
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@Giliell
Yeah, Marine LePenn was a close third. I hope they don’t go on to vote for Sarkozy.
Look, Audley, this is bullshit. Did you even read the part where I said I’ve spent my life working very hard on understanding the people around me and becoming socially acceptable? Does that sound to you like sitting around being baffled? Do you think people like CC or Nutmeg have honestly sat around being baffled?
Sometimes those of us who are odd or non-NT don’t have the fucking privilege to just check out of the larger social picture and find our tribe. Sometimes we live for unavoidable reasons in a place where there isn’t a tribe, or have to coexist with people in the mainstream for most of our waking hours. Sometimes there are penalties for not doing a good enough impression of fitting in with the mainstream. Sometimes the people we love are mainstream, and that doesn’t make us love them less or want to share their lives less. Sometimes, jesus, we’re just lonely, and we want to understand the friendliness going on right under our noses.
It’s like Giliell says about socializing:
But sometimes the process of reaching a compromise involves learning from people who enjoy something different and for people who process analytically (for instance) that includes conversation and brain-picking.
People who drink socially (since that’s what the original conversation was about) are not a minority. Not in the USA, probably not in all of the world, and not here on Pharyngula. It is the group in the majority, and being asked and wondered about about by the group in the minority isn’t weird or inappropriate or, necessarily, intrusive. People who don’t understand social drinking have to live among people who do; if anything, they’re in the fishbowl. They have to try and understand us.
I get this, though I suspect somewhat differently from you. However…
But isn’t this where Empathy (at least as I understand it) begins? With caring about the comfort or feelings of others? No one says you have to fully understand the feelings or thoughts of others, in fact I think it’s kind of arrogant to assume one can know anything of what’s really in another person’s head.
But what I know of ‘being human’ myself would hardly fill half a sheet of notepaper, so grains of salt and all that.
Hi Cicely! Shall we suspicious bastards go sit in the corner and watch everyone?
Just barely escaped the bookstores with the bank account intact. Sort of. Came out with:
The Elements: A Visual Exploration of Every Known Atom in the Universe, by Theodore Gray
The Inquisitor, by Mark Allen Smith
Emperor Mollusk Versus The Sinister Brain, by A. Lee Martinez
Monday Mornings, by Sanjay Gupta, MD
God and the Folly of Faith, by Victor Stenger
The Tell-Tale Brain, by V.S. Ramachandran
Practical Arduino, by Jonathan Oxer and Hugh Blemings
Monster, by A. Lee Martinez
In the Company of Ogres, by A. Lee Martinez
Gil’s All Fright Diner, by A. Lee Martinez
I should have qualified and said that I like it intellectually: conversations are smoother and more entertaining when people feel like everyone fits, even when they don’t, so “faking it” means less stress (and it means not having to explain, for the nth time, why I don’t feel excited about -blah- situation) (I actually think this is a lot of where discrimination comes from: making some people uncomfortable because you’re “different” and, as a result, they try to push you out of the group to re-homogenize it and re-establish comfort).
To me, it’s purely an intellectual exercise – which very much gets me in trouble when I forget that many people often don’t want a solution but instead want commiseration. I’ve trained myself to recognize the signs and learned the appropriate responses, but there’s no actual feeling there.
I know that this is a rising (or, heck, maybe a fully risen) concern; my objection to it is solely because it just adds another bit of opprobrium for a certain demographic to heap on people like my ADD son for taking it, as prescribed. And that demographic doesn’t want to know the difference, either.
</grump>
I’m ambivalent on “recreational pharmaceuticals” (alcohol included); I incline to feel that what a consenting and informed adult does with hir body is hir own business, but that whipping with a Horse is too good for people who push ’em on kids, or who adulterate them with other potentially hazardous substances.
The War on Drugs is a mess; as it is being
wagedlost, it guarantees that widely-available drugs can’t be counted on to besafeclean, with potentially tragic results. And I’d a lot rather if it were possible for young adults to learn their tolerances and limits under safe circumstances.–
Yeah. This.
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This is me, with regular Coke. The Husband can’t stand the taste of fountain Diet Coke, so he orders regular while I get unleaded; and of course they sometimes get mixed up/mismarked. Last week I got a huge ol’ sluuuuurp of his drink while my mind was elsewhere, and it caught me by surprise, and I aspirated it. *cough, hack, wheeze*
I remember back when I didn’t drink regular Coke because I found it unacceptably harsh. Changing tastes/habits, or reformulation? Who knows.
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KG, congrats!
–
Anybody got any suggestions for what to do about a pinched nerve? At least, that seems to be the problem (same problem as last week only not anything like as constant, or intensely painful; still, I miss having a fully-functioning thumb….), less the massively knotted muscles from last week. Continue/discontinue stretches? This is becoming a serious nuisance. </understatement>
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Damn the Horses, Their heirs and assigns!
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*hugs* for Alethea. I’m glad that you have the other kittehs to help comfort you.
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@Richard Austin – I’ve learned that I’m a lot more likely to get the listening and empathy (which is not necessarily commiseration) if I actually say, at the outset, that I’m not seeking a solution so much as not feeling alone with the problem. Having interacted with you for a while now, I don’t actually buy that the feelings aren’t there – you do seem to care about other people being in distress, and taking the intellectual approach to offer other people what they need is one way of responding to that distress. Empathy is caring about and being aware of the feeling states of other people and allowing recognition to guide one’s actions. If you remind yourself that people in distress want you to listen and then listen instead of offering solutions, that right there is empathy.
Subjective feeling state not required. I’ve spent way too much time worrying that I wasn’t feeling the right stuff or that I was broken in some important way. People feel things differently and that’s okay.
For Audley (and any other prospective parental types) – it’s really important to realize that subjective feelings of affection for Spawns can take time, and sometimes quite a bit of time, to develop. Worrying about why the subjective feelings aren’t there can further delay their development, which is sort of suboptimal.
#456: They have bookstores in North Dakota?
(I shouldn’t mock. We don’t have any bookstores in Morris. Well, there is the university bookstore, which sells only the required textbooks and large arrays of t-shirts and other geegaws; and one Total Entertainment store in town that sells cell phones, comic books, games, cds, and videos, with a couple of shelves of well-picked-over sf and fantasy books. And that’s it.)
PZ:
Yessss. Bismarck has a Barnes & Noble. Before they landed, the bookstore situation was on the dire side. There’s also a fabulous used bookstore in Bismarck, stuffed to the rafters with bookses.
I hadn’t read Shit My Students Write in a long while when I saw it referenced somewhere else just now. The posts alternate between hilarious and enraging. I will post links to the ones that inspire awesome band names:
Dracula’s Taint
Genital Orphus
The Big Band of Sexual Response
The Mazel Tov Cocktails
Labial Search Warrant
Not that close, though it is disconcerting to realise how many racist scumbags one must on average be sharing a carriage with when travelling on le Metro parisien. Le Pen got just over 18%, while Sarkozy, in second place, got just over 27%. All the polls so far have indicated Hollande will win the run-off: many FN voters loathe Sarkozy and will abstain or even vote Hollande. Le Pen may even endorse him – she wants to supplant the UMP – although I hope Hollande would have the decency to repudiate the endorsement.
@KG
According to this article: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2012/04/2012423143911568230.html
Hollande says he won’t seek votes from the far right. I guess that is good news, although I don’t know if he is lying or not. Although he does say that he wants to seek voters who voted LePenn just because they were angry at Sarkozy.
C.A.T, for what it’s worth, when I was your age (oh, so many years ago! (I seem to be of an age with Caine)) I would have agreed with what I understand you to be saying; it was an opinion that was installed with the rest of the fundigelical, conservative mind-set my family assumed was Right, without questioning. Time, additional information, and much thought were required to shake me loose from it. It may do so for you, or it may not; and for that matter, you may not consider such a change desireable. I’d say, just keep your eyes open, and listen.
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Bookstores: We have an antique bookstore nearby. Packed to the ceiling, with books in boxes on the floor. Smells like an old library. The owner seems to know where every book he owns is though. Absolutely wonderful place.
carlie re footstool: IANAWW but if you want something to hold a curved weight-bearing shape on command, yet also fold to a flat non-curved shape on command, I’d add internal crescent-shaped braces that fold out for use, probably with a strap to tighten the curved shell down onto them. If it just needs to be angled though and not necessarily round, there are lap desks and cookbook holders with folding legs that keep the surface at an angle.
(To keep my feet up in certain chairs, I just rest them on my bookbag or backpack. *shrug* )
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cicely re pinched nerve: suggesting per my sciatica experience, definitely continue stretching but gently, as it improves circulation and relaxation and thereby promotes healing. Vigorous or extreme stretching can put strain on things though, some of which might be what’s pinching. Also, anti-inflammatory of choice for some time, perhaps several days. Inflammation around nerves is slower to build and slower to resolve than more common aches and pains. When I was rehabbing my back, I was on high doses of ibuprofen for a couple of weeks, and for several days after sciatica flare-ups (due to pinching from inflammation in the damaged lower back muscles).
Audley, YAY! for you & passenger & Mr. Darkheart. Glad all is well.
Threadrupt,but I’m catching up. Just wanted to share the charming Toddler Antic for the Day™. She picked a pair of her father’s boxers (yellow with blue polka dots) out of the laundry, and with the utmost seriousness declared, “I need these.”
She’s now wearing them (both her legs through one leg hole, upside down).
The important thing to remember is that he’s not my partner. He’s my boss.
I’m sure when he happens in the room he’ll be thrilled to see us handling his underpants.
The joys of nanny life.
She just announced that she’s a superhero. Yes, they are now on her head.
Might cheer up PZ a bit – via BoingBoing, photos from a tour of The Science Museum of Minnesota and Science House, a resource of science equipment that teachers can check out as from a library.
http://boingboing.net/2012/04/23/inside-santas-science-worksh.html
Congratulations to Josh!
I don’t.
But then, I don’t pass. I’m a direct-developer, and a slow one at that.
Natural selection. The kids who weren’t resilient have died out.
what is this I don’t even
What kind of school system forces you to choose between those!?! I had to choose between Russian and French.
:-o
Oh, fuck.
SVP is Oct. 17 – 20, and that means that if my abstract gets accepted, my talk could be in the afternoon of the 20th; even without that, I’d miss lots of interesting talks, an entire poster session, and plenty of socialization* if I left Raleigh before the 21st.
*double topofheadpalm*
* Sitting around and talking!
Sounds familiar!
For fuck’s sake, that’s not what CC is doing!
Bonus points for doing exactly what she says people in her meatspace life do.
*headdesk* You’re assuming that if she tries it, she likes it. Automatically. Somehow. Because people are all identical or something.
Have you no curiosity?
Imagine a football season that lasts all year, 24/7.
Yup. The main factor that kept addicts addicted was prison. Now that people aren’t sent to prison anymore when they’re caught, they can break the cycle.
I’ve been to China – the conference organizers sent official invitations to everyone, I took that to the embassy and got my visa almost immediately. Can you find someone to invite you?
WANT.
Eh, you’d still need to tolerate the smoke. I couldn’t.
And it’s what I get over here. I drink things like tea and hot chocolate in public. But then, I only ever hang out with scientists – at least university students.
My brother was once forced by a teacher to eat salad. He puked. The teacher finally got the fucking lesson that not everyone considers the same things edible.
Well – that was an en dash.
How does that work? Does it trigger you?
…What? So when everyone else in the group drinks, you’re somehow obliged to drink, too?
Why go out with the group? In order to have anyone to talk to? In order to just listen to interesting conversations? In order to have any meatspace social life at all?
Cooked carrots are indeed closer to the vile side of things, except in soup. Again: saltwater rulez. Carrots belong in soup, nowhere else.
Carrot cake is a category error.
More than 30? Whoa. That’s like Austria at its worst.
Nobody went out with me in middle-/highschool anyway! I was never so much as invited to a party.
*facepalm*
Oh, that happens to me a lot, when people accept that I’m not going to drink and feel socially obliged to say something.
(Driving? We’re talking about European cities here. You don’t need to drive to get home.)
All seconded.
Impressive!
Trap! I suppose that’s true in the US, where “why don’t you” is an order. Over here, “why don’t you” is a question that expresses confusion. Wouldn’t surprise me if this varied even within the US, and isn’t Nutmeg in Canada?
(But the alternatives you suggest are in any case more foolproof!)
:-D
:-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
I think you’ve hit the nail directly on the head.
Nunc est bibendum!!!
*takes sip of water from cafeteria*
+ 1
In 10 years (or more), someone will have to explain to them “we used to call you Darkfetus”. :-) :-) :-)
Ethanol turning into ethanal (acetaldehyde), ethanal not being processed to acetic acid? Ethanal is vile.
What, that many???
+ 1
“The best peer-reviewed scientific figure ever.”
Mattir (Mr. or Otherwise – I keep wondering if MattirSpouse isn’t going to slip on as Ms. Mattir just to confuse us):
Why I do things to help people would probably keep a therapist busy for years. Suffice to say that I spend a lot of time trying to be the kind of person I didn’t have; it’s an emotional response, but one that is a sense of duty to a person lost in time more than anything else. So, I’m glad at least some of that comes across and appreciate the statement as a compliment (even if it wasn’t necessarily intended as such :D ). I don’t know that I’d describe it as “empathy”, though – it meets your definition, but that varies from what I’ve read over the years (which is more like dictionary.com‘s “the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another”).
I do like people (both in general and in specific). Humans are a fascinating group, even when screwing each other and the world up. I just never feel like I’m part of the group.
David:
No clue (it was decades ago, and I wasn’t as up on scientific details then as I am now). You and my liver can talk it out next time you visit :)
Ahhh, almost off to bed
Yay for Audley and passenger and Mr. Darkheart as well.
For what it’s worth, my kids were like science fiction to me. Not quite real.
BTW, is there something like certified nurse midwives where you live who’ll do pre-natal and post-natal check-ups (alongside the regular OB, of course)? If yes, get one of them, they’re worth their weight in gold.
Because before delivery you’re in the hands of your OB/gyn, afterwards your in hir hands still while your spawn is in the care of a ped and there’s nobody there to do the connection and whom you can bother with smallish questions.
++++
Those people, I hate them.
How fucking stupid can you be to vote for a fascist just to piss of the conservative?
… just looked up acetaldehyde on Wiki.
… The emphasized parts (mine) sound like me. My mom doesn’t like drinking because of hangovers; I wonder if she’s got one copy of this gene, and it somehow matched with my dad’s cocaine one and *poof*
For the record, Mom is mostly Irish and Slavic with a little bit of German, Dad’s mostly German and some Irish.
… And yes, that means I’m Irish, German, and Slavic and can’t drink. It’s like the trifecta of alcoholism in one.
@Giliell
I agree, that is pretty stupid and counterproductive.
Whether or not you drink (or smoke or drink coffee or…) in Salt Lake is weird because it’s colored by religious overtones. Before I figured out what I liked and disliked, I never felt pressure to drink even though there were times I was around drinkers and wasn’t interested. Since religious ideas tend to get deference, pressuring someone to drink in my social circles could be described as being intolerant or assholish since they may have a religious objection.
Then again, there is a sense of drinking and smoking and drinking coffee as a mark of non-Mormon solidarity as well. It adds an entirely different dimension to social settings where there is booze; I feel more comfortable at family gatherings held at the homes of drinking families because there is the quiet option of wine, beer, mixed drinks. My devout LDS relatives would never accept you bringing wine to share with the drinkers over Thanksgiving during their turn to host, and force a Mormon prayer before food is served. There is no coffee/tea with dessert at these homes either.
Friends who have left the church talked about how taboos about food and drink are incredibly hard to shake. A gay friend who went to BYU talked about how he’d given/received oral sex before ever even trying coffee. The caffeine taboo was in some ways more ingrained than religious shame over his sexuality.
David M., thanks for the catch on the em-dash business. It’s been years since that class, and I needed a refresher.
Yes, here in the US “Why don’t you … ?” is not a question for many people. There are other, similar, traps—I cannot figure out a way to ask my wife what she wants without her getting mad at me for giving her an order. “Do you want to … ?” is answered with a snarling “Okay!”
Menyambal:
Uhm, okay, maybe this is me being silly and all but…
… why don’t you ask her? Like, seriously, “Honey, can we talk…” kind of conversation.
Heathen! Heretic! I will never speak to you again!
</exaggerated dramatics>
Enjoy your doctors appointment. :)
–
With The Husband and me, it was 1st ed. AD&D; he was the DM. And my mother wanted me to quit wasting my time on D&D, since I’d never find a man that way, and go hang out in oil-field bars. *snort!*
(I wish I could convince him to do Call of Cthulhu. *sigh*)
–
Josh, I wish I could hear you give a talk; it sounds like a blast!
–
Dr. Audley, congrats on good appointment.
Oh, wait. I’m not talking to you…..
This “rushing to judgement” stuff isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.
–
Approaching caught-upness! Yay!
Absolutely! :)
No telling what they’ll get up to, if left un-watched.
–
Pteryxx, I deal with my sciatica by not sleeping in “that” position any more; obviously, simply not using my right hand/arm/shoulder isn’t feasible. I’m already taking naproxen for my knees, which promptz the question, how much inflammation can it mitigate, where there are concurrent problems? Stack acetamenophen on top of the naproxen, maybe?
–
Rong! Carrot cake is the only acceptable use for cooked carrots.
:)
–
Eek! I don’t understand why I find this cute, given the subject matter, but I do. Maybe penguins on bar graphs are always cute.
Wow.
@David Marjanović, he’d also had anal sex before trying alcohol. Mormonism is a strong cultural force out here. I’ve talked to ex-mormons who end up wearing their temple garments for a long time after they left the church because it felt wrong not to.
Nice discussion about the English sanitisation of fairy tales with Jack Zipes on BBC Radio3 Night Waves.
It came up on The Thread a while ago.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01ghc6m
Audley, glad to hear everything’s progressing well.
Slignot, that’s… pretty fucked up. Not that your friend should have felt any shame about his sexual activities. You know what I mean.
Congrats to KG!
–o–
As I said, there are many layers of wrong in the statement.
–o–
Köln is go! I’ve managed to juggle my schedule to clear the Friday. I’ll look into getting tickets for the train tomorrow, I hope.
@Ms. Daisy Cutter, I know what you meant. It does seem nuts that it was easier for a homeschooled ex-Mormon BYU graduate to come to terms with his sexuality not being shameful than it was for him to shake dietary taboos. It says something pretty profound about how strongly Utah culture is shaped by Mormonism that irrational habitual baggage is that persistent.
cicely:
Well, for one thing, arms/shoulders aren’t weight-bearing like backs and knees. I’ve never taken naproxen and don’t know much about it, but for comparison, while my back was healing I was taking 1000 mg of over-the-counter ibuprofen daily. With plenty of water and careful monitoring, I might add, because that’s approaching liver- or kidney-damaging levels of ibuprofen in some people (normal dosage is 100 or 200 mg). Apparently I tolerate ibuprofen very well – I was on 800-1000 mg a day again while rehabbing tendinitis in my wrists, some years later. But my back’s never given me problems since.
First meeting with boss today
“What did you do this time?”
Ing “…?”
“There’s a emergency vehicle in front of the building, what did you do!?”
I hate this work environment.
I wonder though, because dietary taboos *in general* are extremely powerful and persistent cultural factors, ingrained in childhood around the time that a sense of disgust develops. Kids, and some young social animals, quickly pick up on what foods adults eat or recoil from. I get the feeling religion may have co-opted the cultural power of diet, rather than diet being empowered by religious taboo.
‘Zactly! Yay for cicely knowing what is Rite and what is Rong! :-D (although I will also go with soup. Chunks of carrot do NOT, however, belong in stews (unless they have Fallen in Mediaeval England)).
For fuck’s sake:
kristinc
Well, then this is all pretty pointless, isn’t it?
What I do agree with (which several other commenters have pointed out) is that if a group is pressuring you* or only engaging in activities that you* don’t like, they’re not the people you* should be socializing with. They’re not people that you* should necessarily be trying to understand, no matter how much of a majority they are.
And I don’t think that finding other interests and other people to hang with is really that unreasonable.
*General “you”. Still groggy from my nap.
David
No.
Did you bother to read my point number 2, David? You have to accept that some people will like things that you don’t understand. Honestly, this is something that everyone does, whether or not we “fit in”.
I’m gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you’re not being deliberately offensive.
Seriously, have you read anything else that I’ve written? Like how I said that I try shit out? Really, if I lacked curiosity, would I bother?
And with that, I am done. We’ve been talking in circles since last night.
chigau:
Win.
David
I’m planning on having “former Darkfetus” onesies made.
Giliell:
I just met the midwife that works with my ob/gyn today. She was awesome. :)
Thanks, Caine! ♥
Mattir:
That’s good to know. Besides the social pressure to do so, I’m really not sure how anyone can automatically love a crying bag of poop.
Carlie, imagine a rectangular footstool with hinged flaps along the _length_ of it, which fold flat and add up to just less than the width of the bench. If one flap is wider than the other, the top of the footstool will be on an angle.
@Ing, that’s both awful and incomprehensible.
@Pteryxx, that certainly seems plausible. Habit certainly is, well, habitual. It would explain why ex-Mormons sometimes continue to wear their temple garments instead of buying more normal, comfortable underwear.
Sorry for the extraordinary length…….
ibyea,
After you brought up that illegalization aggravates the problem, I admitted this in my subsequent comment: “If not enforcing, or reducing the laws surrounding drug use actually helps alleviate the problem then I’d be inclined to consent to this option.” If for some reason legalization decreases dangerous drug usage, and it could work in the U.S., why would I argue that this is not a worthwhile option? And I entirely agree that sending convicted drug users to jail is unnecessarily cruel and does nothing to treat their addiction problems. Thankfully (I had to look this up because I was previously ignorant of what happens legally after a user is convicted), offenders aren’t typically thrown in jail, but rather admitted to treatment facilities:
http://www.justice.gov/dea/demand/speakout/10so.htm
http://bostoncru.org/florida-dui-penalties-procedures-2.html
I can’t comment on the quality of the system, the quality of care patients receive, or whether or not there are more effective alternatives, but I’m for whatever helps these people get their lives back on track. If illegalization and strict punishment aren’t the best way to reduce drug usage, fine, but some drugs are worse than others and reducing the number of people who develop addictions to them, or suffer from their ill-effects (whatever those may be), as well as providing quality care for those afflicted, are priorities regardless.
happiestsadist,
There is no problem with the stigmas surrounding drugs like heroin and cocaine, or whatever the most potentially harmful drugs out there are. I agree, stigmatize further, because then people might be more fearful and less inclined to do the drugs, whether they’re illegal or not.
About the article, we’re definitely not on the same page, and I don’t appreciate your ridiculing me before you understand what I’m trying to say. The addicts in the treatment facility somehow became addicted to heroin or methodone or some other opioid, hence the reason they were admitted in the first place. In treatment, doctors continue to prescribe opioids, in smaller and smaller amounts, so that the patients can be weaned off the meds that they’re addicted to. If heroin, the less potent drug (I was under the impression that heroin is the stronger drug, but apparently methodone is), keeps patients from relapsing (seeking more drugs outside of treatment) better than methodone does, maybe it’s a better alternative. But the long-term sobriety of the patients after leaving treatment is equally, if not more important to consider. Besides retaining patients in treatment, which they do by providing opiates, doctors want to guarantee the patients’ long-term success once they leave the rehabilitation center, about which the particular study you acknowledge says nothing. I’m not going to research to find out which is the better alternative heroin, methodone, or some other opiate clinic. My original concern that I expressed was not this, but rather how easily drug seekers, who aren’t looking to remedy their addiction problems or treat any real symptoms of pain access prescription opiates.
Pteryxx, Ms. Daisy Cutter, and Josh,
These are my thoughts: I obviously have no right to tell any of you what to do with your lives. Josh, if you want take three hits of acid, load yourself up on methamphetamines, or put yourself in a drug-induced coma I guess that’s ultimately up to you, however unfortunate it may seem to me. I misdirected my frustrations at people who I felt were dismissive of my concerns. I have irreconcilable views with many on this thread, and let’s just leave it at that. I realize people grow up in different time periods, with different backgrounds, and are compelled to use drugs for any number of reasons, maybe because of social pressures, personal interest, curiosity…whatever. My hatred is for the drugs, for what they do to people, not for the people who abuse them.
cicely, you recognized my youth without putting me down, thank you! I’m definitely influenced by my upbringing, and maybe in time my views will change. Right now though, I can’t see it happening. I’m sorry that your son will have to grow up in such a situation.
Giliell,
you asked me “Well, have you also heard the stories of people who happily use some drug or other once in a while and still have healthy, fullfilling lives? That’s the point: Everything can be a drug. Games can be, work can be, food can be. Wanna ban all of them?” Yes, I think we should ban coffee, sugar, sex, and maybe peanuts….Like I expressed before, I have issues with drugs that cause serious harm on individuals, but that doesn’t mean I want to have government crackdown the whip on drug users and have potentially addictive substance/behavior/activity banned. I’m for the approach that keeps as many people as possible happy, stable, and away from destructive addictions and for the one that offers the best help for those stuck in a rut. And moderation is good, expressed well in Louis’s comment: “Whatever your high is from cat macros to cocaine, handle your fucking high.” I just wonder if cocaine in moderation possible? For many, probably not.
Sally Strange and John Morales,
maybe you guys are right. Maybe Pharyngula is not for me. At least not the comment section of the lounge, anyways. Confrontational straight-talking? It feels more like vultures attacking a very much still alive C.A.T. But then maybe that’s how you guys felt too. I didn’t mean to personally attack anyone on here, and I guess, in getting so worked up about my frustrations, I acted like a bitch. I’m sorry.
cicely:
Thanks!
Noooooooooooooooooooooooo! :( :( :(
Daisy:
Thank you! It’s nice to know everything’s pretty normal. :)
Caine, If you like Lovecraft references you might like the Johannnes Cabal trilogy.
Yes attach shame to it so people will be punished if they seek help. Fucking idiot.
Goddamn it it’s people like you that cause me to have to give the same pep talk to a friend who is absurdly paranoid about being shamed out of any social situation if people know about past drug use. Fuck you.