It’s kind of like announcing “Free Beatings!” or “Free Abuse!”, but there it is. The terrifying film Jesus Camp has been made freely available by SnagFilms and you can just go to the link and watch the whole thing, if you haven’t already. More nightmares, on the way.
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
Wheee!
Is it a limited time thing, or is this indefinite?
I actually watched it free on youtube over a year ago. Horrifying flick.
It’s at least amusing to see who they picked as a minister/spokesman for the concept: Ted Haggard.
Watched it shortly after it came out. Never want to see it again.
How about free spankings?
Have you priced them?
You want the whole boatload of Jesus ignorance, sorry, that’s not free, either.
Glen Davidson
Free as in Beer or free as in mental torture?
I’ve seen it. Never again. It’s bad enough that I live in the same state as that odious woman.
“Sorry, we have not been given the rights to stream this film in your area.”
Lame.
I’ve seen it several times. In fact, I was 75% of the way to becoming an atheist when I first saw this film and it got me the hell of the fence. Terrifying, but I think everyone needs to see it.
I can’t watch it ’cause I’m in the wrong “area”.
As long as they’re freely and fairly teaching both sides…
Oh, there’s this funny thing about proponentsists of teaching “both sides”…
Glen Davidson
That’s a service of the Pharyngula commentariat.
As in “cdesgin proponentists?”
Isn’t that like TEPCO offering free radiation?
I haven’t watched it yet, actually – so how drunk should I get beforehand to avoid serious repercussions?
Puniple:
Drunk enough to avoid killing your television set or slamming your head into a hard surface repeatedly.
I’m watching it now. Brain bleach, STAT!!!!
This stuff is magical thinking. Praying the devil out of inanimate objects is really just a form of magic. These people are mired in a mediaeval mindset.
This is child abuse.
Nope, not watching it. Don’t need more evidence of sick, crazy Christians and how dangerous they are. Just like I don’t need more evidence that the earth is a sphere revolving around the sun or that perpetual motion machines are impossible. Interesting, though, in light of Ken Ham’s claim that atheists accuse Christians of child abuse. Maybe there’s a reason for that.
Thanks for posting this. I grew up in that culture and went to one of those types of camps from age 7 to age 15. I’ve gone back on forth as to whether I would be able to handle watching it, but having it like this I think I can watch it in little bits. Better go warn my husband first that I’m going to be upset for awhile :-)
“Sorry, we have not been given the rights to stream this film in your area.”
Free as in region-restricted.
denisepatterson-monroe:
You have my deepest sympathies.
Took me a year to build up enough gumption to watch it, almost couldn’t make it through. It was a nasty hit when I finally got it started and immediately recognized the highway in the opening shot; didn’t realize all the locations they filmed in.
Denise – definitely little chunks. With the lights on and happy things around you.
I wonder if any of the children in the movie were able to get away from religion?
I’d actually like to see them do a follow-up now that we have an atheistmuslimsocialistfascistnazi in the White House. I guarantee they won’t be praying “to” a life-sized cutout of Barack Obama.
Those kids are about voting age now. Obama doesn’t have a chance! Jesus Camp is going to purify our nation and whatnot.
@littlejohn: “How about free spankings?”
–>And after that, the oral sex?
We all need something to get the taste of that crap out of our mouths.
I’m so not motivated to watch that. Sorta frightened by what I might discover. It was bad enough watching the 5 min Dennis Terry clip the other day. I couldn’t even get through the Catholic Masturbation video before my gonads attempted to leap up through my throat and strangle me to stop the stupidity. And don’t get me started on Johntheother…..
I fear it may be something akin to the Total Perspective Vortex of Christian Evil
*facepalm*
Here is a yotubelink for people from the “wrong area”.
^^ Dead link ^^
Or at least dead in the US.
For some reason I originally read that as ‘free batarangs’.
Disappointed :(
Is the fat lady in prison yet or is she still at large?
Like many of you, I stumbled across this blog due to the release of the blockbuster film “Expelled, No Intelligence Allowed”. Since then I have experienced a wide spectrum of emotion from anger to glee and probably another thousand or so in between while reading P Zs wit and wisdom and every ones replies. I would have to say that the predominant feeling has been envy of the intelligence shown by (most of) the people posting here. My personal nirvana would be the right to add the letters “om” to my username. I’m 55 yrs old and have been an atheist for the last 25. I was raised Mormon and most of my family and friends are still devout believers. (Can you say black-sheep?) At some point I will gladly share my deconversion story. I finally decided to register and post because between the Trayvon Martin story, the Shaming Wand post, and now this documentary on child abuse called The Jesus Story I have been quite literally nauseous every time that I have gone online for the better part of a week. It is comforting beyond belief (plagiarized pun intended) to have a place of reason and sanity where I can reassure myself that I am not alone. Thank all of you for that and I look forward to joining in on discussions in the future.
Having been to several jesus camps, I’m going to abstain from watching this. Just the knowledge that I didn’t even go to the most abusive sort is enough to send chills down my spine.
tl;dr medical attention really is virtually nonexistent.
Hallo snebo154, welcome in. The Endless Thread is our lounge, feel free to mosey on over, have a drink and join in the conversations. It’s an open thread, everything and nothing is on topic.
Sorry, we have not been given rights to stream this film in your area.
WTF, I live in Iowa.
Not going to watch it. I’m already on blood pressure medicine.
I went to a much tamer Anglican summer camp back when. It was on an island in Lake of the Woods, Ontario.
I remember the leeches in the water. They were delightfully disgusting. I was too young to make a correlation with the adult authorities there. Over all it was a positive experience, I’d say. My sister and I looked forward to it each year.
In a moment of nostalgia I went looking for the island on Google Earth. Along the way I found out that the Diocese had to sell the island and other assets. They needed the money to pay the abuse victims of one man. Turns out he was on the island after my time there, though no complaints were ever brought forward against him by campers.
roland:
First, let’s discuss your going full court asshole by deciding to go with fat lady, rather than “that lady who ran the camp” or “that terrible woman in charge of the kids” or any other number of descriptors. What, exactly, does her body size have to do with anything? Here’s a hint: it doesn’t. You simply come across as a douche who takes any opportunity to attach a negative to someone they don’t like. Stop being such an idiot.
If you were asking about Becky Fischer, she’s not in prison as she didn’t do anything criminal. The camp was closed down, however, she did have plans to open another one. I don’t know if she ever did. She does run Kids in Ministry International, which is still a going concern as far as I know.
Watched a few minutes. I need a metric fuckton of brain bleach please.
A student of mine, veteran of several tours of duty in Iraq (there for Fallujah) and Afghanistan, introduced me to “Jesus Camp”, telling me it was the scariest thing he’s ever seen.
The other scary thing is, I pretty much recognized (metaphorically) all the Jesus Camp people from my own upbringing. It’s not an exaggeration.
roland,
The people who regularly comment here prefer to avoid insults like “fat lady”. Reason? We prefer insults that deal with the real problem, because otherwise you end up suggesting that being fat is some factor in what bothers you about her, thus insulting fat people in general. The truth is that fact that the woman has more adipose tissue in her body than doctors consider healthy has precisely nothing to do with how odious she is. “Evil” would be fine. “Abusive” also. “Disgusting, frightening, horrific” as well. But “fat” has nothing to do with it. I am a fat woman. I am an atheist, have raised atheist children, and am active in talking, talking, talking with people about why doing that to children is evil. The fact that I am fat has precisely nothing to do with the fact that I have been an atheist since I was 16.
No it isn’t. It’s extremely restricted. For no apparent reason.
People, there’s almost always a way around the dreaded “Not available in your location”. In this case, just Google:
jesus camp video
Lo and behold, first hit:
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/jesus-camp/
Almost inevitably happens to me here in Ireland, especially re. Jon Stewart. Might have to wait a few days, but someone always uploads the good stuff… somewhere.
@44
topdocs is a great site. That’s where I found Jebus Camp a year or so ago. Sat through the whole thing. I couldn’t look away…like a horrible car accident.
Holy feckin’ shit. Watching that documentary is like opening Pandora’s box. I’ve got to make my colleagues watch that. They’ve no idea what we’re up against.
Hey, global warming, no prob. You can fuck up the planet as much as you like, because sweet jebus is coming to save us real soon now, ya hear? Gag!
Caine, #39,
Oh Caine, don’t you know fat people are stupid and not proper people? They are moral cowards who cannot control their lust for food and slovenly laziness. They must be patronised, they must be shunned and they must be reviled. It’s the only way to help them.
[/sarcasm]
Louis
Louis:
Oh yes, I completely forgot. Writes note to self: must neg all people who aren’t bone thin, especially if they are women.
Caine, #48,
Oh it’s double if they’re women, you silly goose! That’s because women are here to serve men, and fat women can’t get the beer quick enough and are unpleasant to a good man’s eyes. Apparently.
I read it in a book.
Louis
@48 Caine,
You might want to extend that list to include all the other different folk! You know, like women, homosexual, different coloured skin, wrong eye colour. You know, that sort of thing.
:Sigh: Okay, okay, I’ll update the How to Be A Right Pisscake manual.
@Louis
Would being catholic fat woman compensate, do you think?
I went to something like Jesus camp once. A friend of mine invited me and my parents decided it would be OK. It was a weekend’s worth of getting the bookworm out of the house.
It was a lot more benign than the movie’s camp, however. Mainly camp-type kid stuff. The most “Jesusy” thing they did were competitions on who could memorize the most Bible verses. I do recall a preacher preaching one night, but frankly, was completely turned off by him the instant he opened his mouth, so I have forgotten even the gist of his message.
Needless to say, the next time I was invited to something with that kid, I begged off. The kid stopped being my friend. I think I had been assigned as a “project” to be “saved” — even though I went to a different church weekly with my parents. And I didn’t have the heart to tell either the friend or my parents that I didn’t believe in god and hadn’t for a few years.
Bottom line, it didn’t damage me in the least. I think it’s hardest on the kids who want to believe and expect to believe, but just somehow can’t work up the required emotional frenzy.
Louis:
Oh books. Never trust ’em, I say!
Roland, if you bother to come back – before you get all indignant, ask yourself this: if Becky Fischer were thin in the documentary, would you have written “What happened to that thin woman?” My money is on no, you wouldn’t have done.
Caine, to get it right, you could just plagiarize Manology 101.
The pisscake manual has already been well fleshed out there. You could also draw on Johntheone for more inspiration.
Catnip, #52,
Hmmmmm not sure. Even being a good, godly Catholic woman probably doesn’t overcome the wicked evilness of being fat. Or worse, a bit foreign and fat. Sloth and greed are sloth and greed. And gluttony, natch. A good Catholic woman would probably submit to the beating more…
…okay…I’m now feeling dirty at channelling shitheads for comedy.
Louis
And I feel dirty for you!
Oh and on topic, I am watching Jesus Camp…
…it’s lucky I’m off work tomorrow because I’m about to spew my boots up.
Louis
Catnip @55, nooooo, I don’t think so. I don’t feel like wading through raw sewage.
I believe brain bleach comes in metric fuck hectares
[confession] Well, actually, I could not get through them either, so I don’t blame you[/confession]
Louis:
It really is sickening. And terrifying. Becky Fischer is a piece of work:
Caine, #62,
Yeah, this pastor lady seems to be a profoundly lovely human being.
For given values of loveliness. Small, small values.
Louis
I tried to watch that horrible film. I really tried. I couldn’t make it through. It made me physically ill.
Jesus Camp was honestly the most terrifying movie that I saw during that particular year (I think it was 2009, but I don’t remember it that clearly now). If I hadn’t already abandoned religion for years by then, I think seeing that brainwashing probably would’ve pushed me over the edge into doing so.
eurosid: Here, have some brain bleach. {waves over tanker truck} I have some left over from the five minutes I was able to watch.
My hope with this is that it will help some to “see the light” and become atheists and it will encourage those who are closet atheists to come out. Like many people here I was brought up in a religious family, my mum doesn’t believe in evolution still. I started questioning Christianity as a child but kept it to myself. Even after I had rejected Christianity it took me years to acknowledge to myself that I was an atheist and more years to tell people. Extremist religion was one of the things which pushed me to say ‘hey, I don’t agree with this and I don’t want any part in this group even if my moderate church doesn’t say these things the bible does’. Also extremism was what finally pushed me to come out to friends and family. I know that what goes on in this movie is abuse and is despicable but I still hope that some good might come out of it.
eurosid:
It’s okay, it has that effect on a lot of people. You aren’t alone. Let me buy a drink, make it a double.
Ok I’ve now watched the whole lot. In Jesus’ name shallalalalala alalalalwalalalwwwoowowowowowowalalalalwowoweeeeeeweweweweea!
Rarely have I encountered such odious, obviously bananas, bunkum. Anti abortion? Meh, I’m so pro-abortion after that film I petitioning to extend the limit to 2000 weeks. ;-)
Louis
Indeed. Why, just earlier today I was reading as how Jesus, when he comes, will hit the “reset” button on the Earth, making it good as new, resources regenerated ‘n all, and then he will ray-un in gu-lo-ree fer 1000 years.
They couldn’t put it on Teh Intaerweebs if it weren’t true.
–
eurosid – it gave me what I can only call mini-panic attacks; there were several places I just couldn’t breathe and had to stop the movie for a few minutes. It’s pretty much the closest I’ve ever gotten to understanding firsthand what an emotional trigger can do to a person.
*sets out copious quantities of grog, swill, and brain bleach*
{Drinks Nerd’s kindly proffered grog and uses copious amounts of brain bleach}
I’m clearly a masochist. I’m watching an episode of Question Time from last year with Peter Hitchens on it.
All the good genes went into his brother. The extant Hitchens is a waste of a good fuck. The man’s a wanker and it’s a pity his father wasn’t.
Louis
Louis @ #73
ROFL
Allow me to award you one fresh-off-the-over, sniny new internets.
Ze Madmax, #74,
Glad to be of service. {Doffs cap}
I’m three quarters of a bottle of Sailor Jerry rum into an evening’s drinking*, the voices are still there, mother fuckers, but I look at Peter Hitchens and I know a waste of a good fuck when I see one. The man is clearly the combination of an extremely relaxed egg and the last sperm in the pod. Does it make me a bad person to suggest the better part of the man ran down his mother’s inner thigh?
Shit, I’m getting nasty again. Quick! Administer the happy drinks.
I need something uplifting and edifying STAT or else I may become unpleasant. I’m off to YouTube to find some Neil DeGrasse Tyson or Sixty Symbols.
Louis
*I’m not an alcoholic, I’m British. I’m practically a tea-totaller by local standards.
Jesus Camp is one of those videos I can’t watch because I would put my fist through the screen. Hell House was bad enough, but it wasn’t two or so hours of pure horror; there was some sociology in there. I know enough about the Dominionists already.
Kevin, #53, you seem to be generalizing from your experience to those of others. There are people in this thread who have been to such camps and who have stated that watching the movie is difficult for them.
Caine quoting Becky Fischer:
Yeah, you know, an awful lot of their own children are walking away from extreme abusive Dommie households, too….
OH FUCK! He’s just said that sex education robs children of innocence and causes abortion and sexually libidinous behaviour. OH FUCK THE RAGE! THE RAAAAAAAGE! IT’S BUILDING!!!!! OH SHIT I CAN’T CONTROL IT!
Woe betide the next fucking idiot who crosses my path. I may be moved to levels of sarcasm hitherto unobserved by humankind.
Help, I’m having a crisis.
Louis
Jesus fucking camp what a load of shit.
Louis! Hold on! Have another drink! We can’t afford to have you explode…
Louis:
You have to let it out, there’s no getting around it.
Why do you think the that moron George Dubya went for instituting abstinence only ‘education’ across the U.S.? Because he believed the same stupidity. If you tell the kids about sex, why, they’ll run right out, rip off their clothes and start fucking indiscriminately!!1!
Guess what happened to teen pregnancy rates and incidences of stds? Oh, I probably don’t have to make you guess, I’m sure you know.
Catnip,
I’d love to, but the cupboard is drier than a nun’s tit when said nun is sat in the Atacama desert surrounded by a very decent quantity of anhydrous silica gel and sundry drying agents.
I am on my last dram of rum. Even the dodgy zivania I keep for emergencies is gone. And believe me, that is home-brewed by my Cypriot relatives and delivered in a brown paper bag of shame, drinking that is an act of desperation bordering on the suicidal. Wellllllll I say bordering, it’s close neighbours, not next door neighbour, or over the road, maybe a few doors down, nodding acquaintance type thing.
I think the Jesus Camp people have warped mah fragile little mind.
Louis
Caine,
They plummeted down and there was a second coming of Jesus?
Louis
Louis:
I wish. I’d be so happy if Jesus showed up and hauled all the morons off the planet.
I can think of a better use of my time than watching Jesus Camp.
Louis,
Where I grew up that is called, “We’ve said ‘Hidy’ but we ain’t shook.”
There’s really no need to inform us when you have nothing cogent to say about the topic.
@Caine
Did you notice my link?
Caine, #86: Oh, I dunno. In the sidebar of that YouTube vid that “some bastard” linked was a 10-hour THIS IS SPARTA!! remix. Now I don’t know if I wanna watch all 10 hours of it, but it’s definitely something I’d click on. It might go well with alcohol.
Ms. Daisy Cutter:
I’ll take your word for it. :D
I gave up after ten minutes. It was just too painful to watch those horrible people brainwashing those children.
‘Tis:
It was very difficult for me to watch, which I did shortly after it came out. I was very close to leaving the theater when the kids were placed in front of the cutout figure of George Dubya. I was glad I hadn’t eaten anything.
This explains alot about former Missouri Governor, John Ashcroft – Pentecostal.
Louis please
Put the isopropyl down
Step away from the medicine cabinet
It’s not worth it
But I like an Ambien and Vodka cocktail, it makes everything so swimmy.
Louis
I’m going to have to put off watching this until I get home to my oaken cabinet of firewater. I believe there’s some good English gin in there suitable for mixing with Dubonnet. If not, there’s always the amber restorative.
I can’t watch stuff like that. I don’t understand the mindset of the manipulators at all, and all I end up with is hate that makes me physically ill. So no, thanks.
Not watching this. Not when my hadephobia is still in nearly full swing thanks to just CCD.
It’s really depressing to think there are people who are simply out of reach of anything that could help them out of this morass. They will never listen. They will continue like this all their lives.
I have to admit, I didn’t have very much trouble watching this movie (last summer). That probably says something less than ideal about me.
I went to a milder version of this camp from 10-15 and worked there the summers I was 16 and 17. Campers weren’t encouraged to speak in tongues or pray over cardboard cutouts; the main focus was basic Christian doctrine with an evangelical slant to the presentation.
I did meet some staff who did some pretty weird things. One night, the first summer I was on staff, some of the other counselors put their campers to bed and then went out to the firepit to pray. This was a fairly regular occurrence on the nights before the main “come to Jesus” pitch. A couple of them got the idea in their heads that there were demons infesting the ring of cabins where the younger campers slept. They went around the cabins, praying and shouting at the demons to leave.
I was sound asleep, exhausted, because that was the week that all my campers spoke French and I didn’t, and I had a cold. I kind of regret missing it – I think I would have become an atheist sooner if I had seen that with my own eyes instead of hearing about it afterwards.
It’s hard to believe now that I went back for another summer, but I did. The last straw for me was when I got into a discussion with some close friends on staff about the interpretation of the first two chapters of Genesis. I had recently encountered the evidence for evolution and found it convincing, and I mentioned that some people took those chapters more metaphorically. My friend went off on a rant about that. Despite several summers together and all the evidence she had seen of my faith, within 30 seconds she had concluded that my salvation was in jeopardy. I almost walked out right there. Another staff member stuck up for me, and I finished the summer, but I never went back. Eighteen months later I was an atheist.
My best friend in middle school was Pentecostal, and she did go to a camp like this. Even back then her stories freaked me out a bit. She’s still heavily involved in her church, and seems unable to understand that I honestly don’t believe anymore.
I had to stop after the children started speaking in tongues. I just…fuck, where’s the booze?
Phledge: I’ve brought the one of the Liquor cabinets from The Endless Thread. There’s whisky, gin, rum, brandy, vodka, vermouth, Dubonnet, and congac in there. You might accidentally find some absinthe if you pull on the handle on the bottom shelf, so don’t do that.
When I was thirteen, a friend invited me to an Assembly Of God service. The sight of all the adults losing control and spouting gibberish freaked me out. I did not go again.
Still took an other three or four years before I became an atheist. But for a while, I was the oddest little socialist and fundamentalist. I was a strange child.
@42
“The people who regularly comment here prefer to avoid insults like “fat lady”.”
Is it an accurate description or not? You may take it as an insult if you wish, but how about “short lady”, “tall lady”, “redhaired lady”. In referring to the “fat lady” the poster was seeking to distinguish the talker from others in the video. He did not know her name. It would have been pointless to use it as a label if all the female talkers were overweight, but you knew exactly who he was talking about.
From a “short” “bald” “man” (I am happy for anyone to refer to be using these descriptions – they are accurate.)
Fuck it, not on this thread. fred, just accept that here it’s not generally accepted to comment on people’s appearance, ok? She was distinguished from the others in the video by being the lady in charge of the whole thing. There you go, easy. “The lady in charge”. Please, not now. Some of us actually lived this kind of shit and all of them are talking about how difficult this movie is and you’re trying to derail it so you can get your jollies yelling about semantics. Please don’t.
I was all ready to get the excellent rtmpsrv fired up, but all I got was “Sorry, we have not been given the rights to stream the film in your area”.
How Christian!
By the way, apropos of not much, a metric ton (aka a tonne or a megagram) is actually slightly smaller than ye Olde Englishe ton, being equivalent to only 19 cwt. 5 st. 6 lb. 10 oz. But on the other hand, since anybody not using the proper measuring units obviously doesn’t care much about accuracy, it’s probably near enough.
janine #101
I think the rest of us knew that already.
My favourite scene in the film is when the little girl goes up to the young woman at the bowling alley and says something like “God loves you and thinks you’re really special.” It was like God was using the girl to pick up!
When I sat down to watch it (about 5 years ago), it took me 2 sittings. I think I got about an hour through the first time, then finished it off later. It’s heavy stuff.
I’ve watched it. For me, the most wrenching part was when one of the kids confessed that he found it ‘very hard’ to believe in God and all the other junk. I wanted to encourage him, tell him that yes, he was thinking in the right direction. But I was on the wrong side of the screen, and there was no support there for him, only sharks.
Becky Fisher and her camp were robbing those children of precious playtime, indoctrinating them to be hardened and hateful. Praise the Lord is right – he’s the only one who got any. I don’t remember a single word of praise being directed towards the children. I clearly remember several admonitions.
carlie – it’s not a question of semantics, it’s a question of how people communicate using labels. You’ve just suggested an alternate label. Fine, but it’s just an alternate.
I am short, and if I’m standing in a group of tall men, I would expect to be distinguished in that group by someone describing me as “the short man”. I would not be offended by this. I AM short. It’s just a fact. It’s not an insult. (unless the user INTENDED me to be insulted)
Does anyone have a working link to the full video btw?
It’s not available for view where I am.
eurosid
Oh, believe me,you’re not alone there.
unfortunately the movie is not available here in Europe, but I watched the speech in the subsequent posting, which gives a flavour of the awful nature of religion in America (and elsewhere, since the castration scandal in Holland or Denmark has just come out in the last 2 days)
Just spotted the film link in a previous post. My bad.
It’s an alternate that has incredibly negative social implications, and you know it. And that’s the last thing that I’m saying about it no matter how you try to sit on it and needle everyone about it, because you’re just trying to draw attention to yourself and shit all over the actual topic. Fuck off.
Perhaps better to have him hug you throughout. In addition to the light and the happy things around you, I mean.
Maybe I’m exaggerating. I still haven’t watched it. But then, I have no experience of that kind of thing from my own upbringing (European liberal Catholic), so it couldn’t trigger me that way…
O horror.
…What I just said.
I didn’t just go to camps, I was on the fast track to be the leader lady. I taught in VBS, the at-home version of Jesus Camps, for years.* I didn’t just teach in them, I was on the organizing committees for them. I was the main emcee ringleader for them. I helped promote them. Watching that movie was bad for me on multiple levels.
*disclaimer: no speaking in tongues, no cutouts of presidents, but only a degree or two off from the fundie level of the ones in the movie.
Damn, Carlie. I have read before that you had this kind of background. I did not realize you were that far gone.
If I am not getting too personal, may I ask how you were able to breakaway from that?
Just so you know, I can understand why if you do not want to answer.
I understand and agree completely with those who take umbrage at the use of “fat” to describe someone. In part because I see it as generally insulting and in part because I am 60 lbs above where I would like to be. Far more disturbing to me was the use of the term “lady”. Not a term I would ever apply to that sub-human who was braying mindlessly in the video. “Child abusing-brainwashing-lunatic” seems considerably more accurate.
@67 lexie
Don’t waste to much time hoping that this will help some “see the light”. I was under a similar delusion when I had my brother watch it and his reaction was to inquire about the existence of comparable “Mormon run” camps in his area to send his children to. Did I mention that I’m not real popular at family reunions?
Ugh.
I watched this a couple years ago. When it was over I just sat in front of the tv saying “fuck!” a lot. Then I made my roommate watch it. And then there were two of us saying, “fuck!”
I forgot a lot of it, probably defensively, but the parts that stood out:
The kid in tears because he sometimes had doubts…I’ll never understand how anybody can do that to a child.
The opening scene with all the kids in camo gear and face-paint, coupled with the later scene of Becky talking about terrorists and suicide bombers as if they were good things. Like, “well they’re ignorant heathens but they have a very strong faith and that’s what we’re trying to instill in our kids.” I’m a bit fuzzy but I think that was the gist. “Vile” doesn’t even begin to describe that woman.
Caine, Fleur du Mal:
Yay!
Less yay. Much, much less.
Though horrifying, I didn’t have that much trouble watching it. No triggers for me thankfully. I’m one of those “natural born heathens.” Never really had any religion in my life and though most of my family would probably identify as Christian (my great-grandfather was a baptist minister…oh how I’ve fallen) I always just assumed religion was ridiculous but harmless. It took a long time for me to ask myself whether that assumption was actually true or not. And once you start looking…
How anyone still supports these organisations, I will never, ever understand.
I’ve just watched it. I feel so depressed, I need to watch some Hitchens to restore my faith in Humanity.
janine – oh yeah, but it was more linked to my personality type than anything else; no matter what I get involved with, I’m more the type to end up being the one to volunteer to do the grunt work when nobody else will out of a sense of obligation, and although I’m extremely introvered, somehow I’ve always ended up out in front whenever public stuff is needed (*ahem*loudmouth*ahem*).
That actually made things a bit easier when I was in the process of deconverting; it took about 3-4 years, I’d say, to really fully peel it all away and realize there was nothing there. During that time it became harder and harder to sit through church, but I didn’t have to sit through Sunday School because I was teaching it, and could therefore look for the most generic (within the guidelines) curricula and then gloss over the parts I wanted to gloss over. I went with some of the more nondenominational stuff because they usually focus on the big easy things (love! kindness! obedience!) rather than specific beliefs (predestination!) so that they can market to the widest audience. So, for example, I used Group publishing materials instead of Lifeway. As for church itself, I spent some time in the babies/toddlers rooms rotation, and a lot doing children’s church, so I didn’t even have to listen to sermons. That got me through to the point where I couldn’t even stand that any more, though, and was glossing over pretty much everything, and it was starting to get noticed that I was only ever playing games with them.
The final break was fortuitous; there were a couple of huge issues in the church that resulted in literal shunning, which I had never seen happen in an SBC church before, and a few other really distasteful behaviors from people in charge. That was the last straw that made it easy to say I’d never go back again even to keep up appearances. Spouse was totally ok with that given what had happened, and it provided a good cover to my family, who I’m still not out to.
Thank you, carlie.
Holy shit, Carlie. It must have been a nightmare for you to watch this.
Caine, I am assuming that you missed this.
Carlie – Thanks for sharing that story. It’s remarkable that you were able to “get away”. Being ‘out’ to everyone in the family sometimes causes you a hell of a lot of pain. I would leave differently now, than I did several years ago.
But that’s said with a LOT of hindsight.
Janine, no, I didn’t miss that. It struck me that, for Carlie, it must have been like watching herself in an alternate life. I know if it had been me, that would have done my head in.
Hi,Patricia. I was beginning to think that I needed to check on you again.
It is good to see that you are still around.
Janine – Thanks my friend! I’ve got myself one of those nervous hospital doctors now, and I’m doing better. *wink*
Thanks – I think it was worse on people like Denise upthread, who lived through it for several years as a child (I didn’t have sleepaway camps until high school), and Patricia who had a much more strict denomination. It was pretty surreal to watch – it took a long time to work up to it, I had to watch it alone, and it took a few hours with frequent breaks. Even then, though, in a weird way I think it wasn’t as hard watching it as it would be to someone with no familiarity with it, because in one way I still have the same mindset of “well, yeah, that’s the way people do things, right?” that it’s just the normal way to be.
Carlie – I don’t think it’s any easier to see what your old church did to you, than to me. It still sucks!
There may be a difference in degree, if your church has stopped pursuing you after you left. Mine won’t quit. I was never involved with childrens studies, so while I’m sure this ‘instruction’ went on, I didn’t see it. Honestly, looking back, I probably would have accepted it. (Shame on me.)
Patricia – oh yeah, there was almost no pursuit. If I’d been in the church I grew up in, I would have had several Saturday morning outreach visits, and probably a lot of people wanting to talk to me about it because they were “concerned”, but nothing really ritualized the way yours has been. I got “lucky” in that this church here is harsh in a cliquish way; if you aren’t part of the “in” group, they don’t give a shit. You want to leave, fine, they’ll happily never speak to you again and ignore you if they ever do see you. It can hurt if you thought they were your friends, but otherwise it works out quite nicely.
Two quick funny stories: when I was in therapy, I was talking out whether to leave the church or not and mentioned the possible repercussions. The therapist said “What, are you afraid they’ll come to your house or something to ask why you’re not there?” in a tone of pure “what a silly idea, that would never happen!” and I was all YES THEY WILL I SPENT MANY SATURDAYS OF MY YOUTH DOING EXACTLY THAT TO OTHER PEOPLE. Good lord man, they have lists! Lists of people who haven’t been there in a month and then they get a visit! It was a funny moment of realizing how skewed my worldview was from some other people’s that he couldn’t even imagine it, and I was raised that it was perfectly normal and how you showed concern and caring for others, to interrupt them on a Saturday morning to ask them to come back to your church.
Story 2: Several months after I left, when it was clear that I wasn’t coming back, we ran into the pastor and his family at a local outdoor attraction. I got all nervous, and wasn’t sure how to deal with it, and spent a few minutes ducking around to avoid notice, then realized that I was acting as if I had something to be ashamed of by having quit and that was wrong. So I just marched right up to him and said hi, asked how they all were, cooed over the new grandbaby in their midst. The man couldn’t get away from me fast enough! He had no idea how to react to a backslidden heathen who wasn’t bowing and scraping and acting ashamed of themselves and was totally nonplussed, even stammering, while I was just calm and polite with the small talk. I felt powerful. It was awesome.
Since I’ve lived most of my life in Texas, I’ve never felt a need to watch Jesus Camp. I can see it, anytime I want, anytime I step outside of my house.
That is powerful, Carlie! That’s a great story, too. Thanks for sharing it.
Carlie – Good for you, and thank goodness they aren’t pursuing you. My stoopid fucks are STILL leafleting my car, showing up at my door, and now – “visiting” me where I volunteer. I’m starting to believe they are related to the damned Phelps’.
Patricia, I don’t know how you deal with that. Would they obey a restraining order if you got one?
Caine – I’ve been thinking of that… I’ve met them at the door and told them to fuck off repeatedly. Naughty M tells them to fuck off. When they come to my office it’s always the veterans in the church, which have a valid reason or question. Verbally abusing/questioning me in quiet tones gets them a pass. All of my work mates are fundies. *le sigh*
This is part of the reason my recovery from my husbands death is so difficult. A restraining order is something I need to look into. It’s time.
Patricia, that’s flat out harassment, and you may well have a case for gang stalking. I think a cease and desist/restraining order is definitely in order (heh). You should, at the very least, start documenting all of this, so that you’ll be taken seriously.
If you live in the wrong area, just use a proxy!
Caine – You’re right. I hadn’t really thought of it in those terms before, because it is part of the culture of my old church to try to shame sinners back into the fold. I’m used to it, it’s what we do.
Patricia – I second Caine on it; it might feel normal, but it’s not right, and “regular” people who aren’t in the church (particularly the police) won’t see it as right either. Even if you just go check out what the requirements for a restraining order are, and what kinds of orders there are, that would be a good step. Then when they come up to you, you can whip out a notebook and say that you’re documenting it in order to get a restraining order, and that itself might be enough to scare them off.
It doesn’t look like it’s free anymore. Oh well, there’s always Youtube.