There’s nothing wrong about being pretty, or sexy, or shopping, or being interested in traditionally girly things—but there is a big problem when that’s the only option you’re given. I know I’d be stressed if I were constantly told I’m less of a man if I’m not playing football or working in a manly occupation that involved large wrenches and heavy industrial tools, so I can sympathize with the limited choices given women: oh, you aren’t wearing a bikini on your lithe body with the large breasts? Then you’re an ugly dyke. You aren’t planning a career as a homemaker and mother? You just want to be a man.
So let’s socialize the little girls early, and start them on video games with good role models: slender women obsessed with clothes and boyfriends.
Read the description. It’s appallingly shallow. It makes me want to run out and buy John Madden’s football video game, so I can learn what it takes to be a True Man.
That’s one side of the problem: pressure to conform to a ridiculously narrow set of values. Here’s the other: the absence of support and recognition when you try to pursue other better, greater interests.
There’s just something wrong with our society. Women, get out there and fix it, OK?
(Also on Sb)
Yeah I wasn’t serious, but since you were starting up the boast wagon I figured I’d give you another chance to dangle your wang.
@Sally – I think we’re looking at the same problem from two different angles. You view the scenario as a sexism problem (If I am interpreting you correctly). I view it as a problem with gender roles and their enforcement. We both seem to agree that the optimal situation is a marriage wherein the nobody cares what the other makes or feels threatened by it.
I wasn’t trying to offer a situation to show how sexism hurts men. I was trying to offer a situation to show how gender roles placed on men can also hurt women. I can concoct some similar situation to show how gender roles places on women can also hurt men.
It all goes back to my very first post in this thread. “People can scream until they’re blue in the face about sexism against women or roles being carved for women, but they won’t go away until roles for men are also gotten rid of, otherwise the fallback role society tries to put women into will be the stuff men aren’t expected to do in their roles.”
My argument is that all roles need to be abolished. That would probably work wonders towards eliminating sexism too.
Ahhh the humblebrag. And in its native state too. It’s always good to see such a beast in the wild.
Louis
Zerple:
Oh for…Zerple, boasting about your salary or talking about it with no valid reason (such as discussing your budget with your wife) is not something you should do anywhere. On or off the net, okay? It’s rude.
No, you cannot delete your post. I know you were agreeing with Ladyh42, but you could have easily done that without mentioning specific numbers:
I’d be dancing with joy if my wife made more than me! See, easy.
It’s weird that you seem to think these are two separate things.
Louis:
Now there’s a word I’m tucking away for further use.
That would be sexism. Full stop.
@Caine – Noted, won’t do it again, not trying to be offensive, not trying to dangle my wang as BigDumpChimp said. I thought a number would make my agreement with her stronger and make the position of not wanting your wife to make more money that you look as silly as it is by providing something concrete.
I don’t seem to fit in, in this community. It might be best if I just stop posting and go back to just being a reader.
“Women’s equality–because you’ll be rich!”
Who exactly is going to find this argument “stronger” for having a numerical value attached to it?
Most of us here already believe in women’s equality, not because it’ll make anyone rich, but because women are people.
Trying to appeal to the selfish misogynists out there or something?
Again, weird.
Zerple, could you define what you consider sexism to be? I think we’re working with different definitions and that’s leading to more than a little tension.
Zerple:
You were dangling your wang, as Rev. BDC so quaintly put it. That was obvious, not just to him, but to me, and to Louis and I’m sure to everyone else. Numbers have nothing to do with agreeing with Ladyh42 – you either agree or you don’t. There was zero need to boast, don’t try and cover now by saying you thought you were providing something concrete.
We all want to boast sometimes, that’s perfectly normal. Your salary simply isn’t something you should boast about. You get that now, and that’s great.
Reading more might be helpful. You really need to stop being so defensive over every single thing people say to you. A good rule around here is if multiple people are telling you the same thing, the chances are excellent that the problem lies with you, and you need to think about what you are saying and really think about what people are saying to you. You don’t need to respond instantly. It’s okay to take time to think things out. Okay?
I mean, this is really funny coming from the guy who vigorously defended the proposition that equality of economic opportunity is a zero-sum game.
Sally:
Yes, which makes the humblebrag all the more egregious.
Caine, I wish it were mine. I saw it somewhere. It summed up the phenomenon perfectly.
Zerple, I wouldn’t say you don’t fit in, that’s just my opinion btw. What I would say is that you have plopped into a scorching hot topic on this blog, one in which dumbfuckery is poorly tolerated as I have found out! You’ve also persisted in a very correctable (and reading up thread, heavily corrected) opinion which always makes the Horde gnash their teeth and snarl. On the issue of sexism it is really, really, REALLY good practise to listen first, a lot, ask questions later.
One thing to be aware of as a new person anywhere, and I regularly step on my dick in this way, is that people have no idea about your intentions. Especially at the start. No one knows whether or not you were wang dangling/humblebragging when you mentioned salaries. No one knows whether or not you were merely trying to highlight the (vastly lesser) ways in which sexism hurts men compared to women (and it does, but just because we men are in the shit up to our ankles doesn’t mean we’re in the same shit as someone who is up to their eyeballs) in your initial posts. We cannot, surprise surprise, see through the internet and into your heart.
There’s a saying in medicine “if you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras”. We get a LOT, and I do mean a metric fuckton LO..O..O..O..T, of Male Right Activist/misogynist/sexist trolls on these threads. There’s something about the web that allows them to scurry from their caves. You clopped in. Sorry, mate, but you did. Your posts, rightly or wrongly, had a couple of quiet hoofbeats in them. Now, you may well be a zebra. A beautiful, non-sexist zebra who just happens to be bringing (un-needed) balance to a skewed world, but the vast majority of people who have posted the sorts of things you have are most normally plain old sexist horses.
If you have stripes, show ’em. We’re not going to be able to see them through the screen.
Louis
@Sally – “Most of us here already believe in women’s equality, not because it’ll make anyone rich, but because women are people.”
Right, and I agree on the same premise. I just think that throwing out additional positive things could help to make the net a little broader and pull more people in.
“Trying to appeal to the selfish misogynists out there or something?”
I don’t think that’s what I was doing, but why not? If you want to change the selfish misogynists, doesn’t it make sense to appeal to them? You can sit around in a forum agreeing with people all day, but if someone who doesn’t agree with you hasn’t heard the message, it will achieve nothing.
@Sally – “I mean, this is really funny coming from the guy who vigorously defended the proposition that equality of economic opportunity is a zero-sum game.”
In that thread, I was specifically referring to scholarships. I don’t see similar constraints in business, because women can always start businesses and existing businesses are always expanding. After reading many replies, I get how my premise (even with scholarships) was stupid.
I WAS WRONG!!
There, it’s in caps, you can quote me everywhere you want. If the tage were enabled, it would be size 40 font, bold and red. Will you just drop the strawman now? Being expected to defend an argument I’m not making is getting a little old.
Ahhhhh accommodationism and tactical disputes as applied to feminism. I think this will end poorly.
I, Louis, Prognosticator of Prognosticators, Soothsayer of Soothsayers, Seer of Imminent Train Wrecks, Scryer of the Hidden Pool of Internet Arguments and Futurist of Feisty Fandangos have spoke. SO MOTE IT BE!
Louis
P.S. I will now, and forever, end the argument. Ready? Brace yourself. Let a thousand flowers bloom. Thank you.
*tags not tage.
Passion has produced a typo.
Zerple,
You were wrong? Excellent. Feels good don’t it? Bathe in glorious wrongness. Join me. I am so wrong so often I have Frequent Fallacy Miles. If I save enough up I’ll be able to buy myself a nice shiny argument from authority.
Like Icthyic (a deviant Yankee scumbag residing in New Zealand who smells of fish. Never trust him. His wickedness is awesome. ;-) ) said, take a step back. It’s all good.
Louis
The point, as much as possible, is to help them change into decent people. Not just from selfish misogynists into selfish non-misogynists. “Feminism is the radical concept that women are people” means women are PEOPLE. Treating them as convenient wealth-enhancers isn’t any better on that front than treating them as convenient sex-dispensers.
Besides, there are plenty of non-selfish misogynists who ARE willing to change, once they learn what misogyny is and realize how they could do better.
Well, I have a little rat who is telling me it’s time for bed, so I’m out for now.
@Caine, whether or not I’m too late and missed you:
I don’t always manage to say anything, largely because I can’t thank y’all enough for your stories, and for the gift of the knowledge of your bravery. But I’m glad y’all are here.
I don’t think much of promising misogynists greater riches in return for treating women as humans, but that isn’t the point. The point is that you, Zerple, haven’t taken much time to really think these things through. You offer half-baked opinions and then contradict yourself later. You have blind spots and you get really pissed when people point them out. You’re uninformed on the topic of sexism if you think sexism and gender roles are separate phenomena. There’s nothing wrong with that, ignorance is remediable. And there’s no reason you can’t fit in here. Just take Louis’ and Caine’s advice, and think before you post next time. Especially on the subject of sexism.
First, because it doesn’t help with the root problem of selfishness, and second, because the selfish misogynist would probably reply with something like “Great, so she’ll be double rich once she’s done taking all my money in the divorce!” I’d rather argue in good faith and that straw men be entirely of someone else’s creation.
Games tagged as “for girls” are frequently very suspicious, because of this: they try to send a very old fashion idea about what a girl must like, not about what girls actually like. Don’t worry PZ, we’ll fix it :D
Correct me if I’m wrong, but you live in the same time zone as I do, right?
There’s a point at which appealing to the masses (or your opponents) involves compromise one isn’t willing to make.
We have to be very conscious of our communications and how they’re perceived, because any appeal to others that endorses those things against which we’re fighting, even incidentally, just makes our jobs harder, and just makes it more likely that the person will say, “See? Even a feminist/gay rights activist/progressive/whatever thinks I’m right about [blank].” And that increases the chance that said person will discriminate against someone in the future.
So, yes, Zerple, depending on how it’s done, appealing to misogynists is a bad idea. Even if done with the best intentions.
Zerple
Well, it’s not as if the number of scholarships never increased, or universities never grew, and the need for well-educated college graduates is still the same as in 1473.
So, no, no zero sum game. Win-win.
You know, all sexism and not-really-sexism-nooo aside, there is some rather poor illustration going on in that game. The messed up perspective, the vacant doll-like expression on the girl, and I don’t know what the heck her hair is doing. I guess the Mickey Mouse look is in these days?
Rey Fox, Caine is a creature of the night.
Ry,
Well, that’s certainly another problem with games that are marketed toward girls/women– they’re very often not as high quality as “regular” (ie- marketed at boys/men) video games.
So, we settle for crappy design because, hey, where else am I going to learn to take money from my boyfriend for shopping?
*barf*
Or, you know, “Rey”. I apparently have stupid fingers this morning.
Sorry, I’m very later to this thread.
Does anyone else find that the depiction of the girl in the game has sort of a creepy marionette quality? No real expression, just the kind of vacuous gaze-into-the-middle-distance look that is inexplicably held up as an ideal? I wonder; is that just sloppy animation, or is there a subtext?
As for the second video, seeing O’reilly interview a man even more obnoxious than himself was a novelty. I must admit that I agree with Glodson @ 5, watching that smug MRA write off a woman president on the basis of ‘PMS’ also instilled in me a desire to inflict harm on him that was sadly frustrated by the fact that it was only an image on a screen.
Sorry, Rey. I didn’t see your post @ 529 that covers the same ground
Feminism is a very interesting topic, and surprisingly few people understand it. Even compared to related issues like racism and homophobia. I almost always learn something new every time the topic comes up. There’s always an angle you haven’t considered.
But a lot can be seen by just opening your eyes. Since my sex is male, I can easily see that by that fact alone, as well as being straight, white and from a rich country and all that, I’m in a privileged position. Not because I’m any better, but because of what box I appear to fit into. The fact that my gender don’t fit as well into those boxes does not disadvantage me as long as I don’t push the issue, and stay in my box.
Blaming other people for their struggles, or the challenges they face in society, is a way for the privileged to ease the nagging guilt that you—by the fact of being privileged—are a part of the problem. But that does in no way mean you have to stay a part of that problem. Being a part of the solution may cost you a bit: Husbands standing up for their wives at work, expressing outrage when misogyny appears in public and media and advertisements, cheer on women who stand up and move up in society and last but not least, teach the next generation to think for themselves. But it is a small price to pay, and the least we can all do. It is not women’s job to fix this alone, but when they decide to do so because no one else will, the least you can do is try to support them and do your bit. A good place to start, of course, is to try to understand the problem. It seems to be the hardest step for a lot of people.
Inane Janine, OM, Conflater Of Arguments @ 530;
Sally Kern would probably take that literally. Believing that people like Caine only come out at night to turn innocent heterosexuals into ‘teh living ghey’ (also known as the ‘unstraight’) is just about at the level of cognition displayed by most homophobes…
@Janine
Does she sleep as late as 4 AM like I do regularly? :)
@Dr. Audrey
“Well, that’s certainly another problem with games that are marketed toward girls/women– they’re very often not as high quality as ‘regular’ (ie- marketed at boys/men) video games.
So, we settle for crappy design because, hey, where else am I going to learn to take money from my boyfriend for shopping?
*barf*”
I can explain this. It’s a really neat Catch-22. Girls tend not to play video games because there are no high-quality games designed and marketed towards them. However, the fact that girls tend not to play video games means that there is no reason for a studio to expend the resources to create a high-quality game for girls.
I think this issue is fading though. The rise of mini-games, things like Hexic and Angry Birds, is closing the disparity and bringing a lot of women into the fold of gaming.
My wife, for example, won’t sit down and play play a game for hours (or sometimes even minutes), like my male friends will (unless it’s Halo, she really really likes Halo), but once I bought a Kinect and a bunch of goofy moving mini-games, she and the Xbox became best friends. Now she games as much as I do, maybe a little more.
What was that old saying? “A friend is someone who walks in, when the rest of the world walks out.”
Yeah, that.
—
Re: Dancing
I don’t dance in clubs. It has nothing to do with being self-conscious. I just find that, when I’m on a dance floor with the music loud enough that you can feel it vibrate through you, and all the people bouncing and moving, and all the strobes and scanners and spotlights, and all the heat and scent – I just close my eyes and cease being. I don’t dance because I’m not there: the part that’s “me” gets so wrapped up in the sensation that everything else is motionless. I love the sensation, but there isn’t anything left to dance.
I’ve talked before about how I have days where I can’t stop “extrapolating” (for lack of a better word) on things, where small little sensations seem to get magnified into amazing tapestries of light or sound or smell. Well, there are certain songs that induce that sensation. To me, they feel like being hit by a wall of sound: where you’ve got simultaneous sound at all audible levels. One example is a song called “Waveform” by the group Concept; “The Great Gate at Kiev” from Pictures at an Exhibition comes close as well. There are probably half a dozen songs on the Alan Parsons Project’s “Try Anything Once” that do it as well. The effect only really works with a good sound system, where you can feel the music, though a set of headphones with decent bass can somewhat approximate it.
That’s why I listen to so much techno: I’m looking for that “hit”, that sensation. I just have to make sure I’m not required to be a “normal person” for a while afterwards.
Bah, wrong thread :) First time I’ve done that.
I think that’s an example of how truly terrible game developers are at their jobs. They’ve developed this cute line of reasoning that exuses them from developing games that aren’t shallow pieces of crap or marketed exclusively to guys.
Women do play “real” games. They play fighters, rpgs, rts’, hell even god awful shooters like Halo. Let women know your games aren’t only for 14 year old boys fantasizing about how everyone everywhere wants their cock. And occasionally moderate the community that springs up around your games on your sites. You’d be shocked just how many woman gamers come out of the wood work.
They’re also excessively boring – to the point that I would consider being constrained to play them to be some sort of mental abuse.
But then, I’m female and have never found anything aimed at girls even remotely interesting, and for that reason never much hung up with girls – other than fellow female nerds, that is. Neither have I any interest for typical male-oriented things such as cars or sports.
We nerds seem to fit neither gender, interest-wise.
Nerds, the true third gender …
Yeah, as a nerd, I can see that :P
The other (other other) thing I don’t get about things marketed towards girls is how they focus on what they take to be real-life situations. I always thought video gaming was about a certain level of escapism. I can’t fathom why anyone would want to participate in a hollow simulation of what they supposedly do in real life. (The Sims baffles me for similar reasons)
Kinda the way it’s always been, I guess: boys get to be cowboys, astronauts, heroes, etc., girls get to be girls.
When you see the ridiculously narrow set of occupations that are properly one sex or the other, it’s amazing that anyone fits. Or tries to.
Meanwhile, Audley seems to have stumbled upon my secret life as a slide guitarist.
NERDS!
Zerple:
Well, marketing games toward either gender is problematic in and of itself. Since you bring it up, consider the popularity of puzzle games. They’re not marketed toward a particular gender or age group and everyone loves them.
I’m not saying that should be the fate of all games– there’s nothing wrong with a decent FPS* that’s light on story, it’s just that if you’re someone (not necessarily a woman) who doesn’t want a violent game, you’re stuck with either the shit from the OP or a puzzle game on your smartphone. There’s not enough variety.
Your anecdote is noted, though. I happen to be a 30 year old woman and I have been playing video games for well over 20 years. I have absolutely zero interest in the Kinect or rhythm games in general. I tend to avoid puzzle games (although… Bejeweled… I can’t stop). Right now, I’m working on Dead Island, but I’ll be going back to Fallout: New Vegas to finish up the DLC as soon as I’m done with DI.
My point is, there’s no predicting what someone will or will not like based solely on gender. Which is why I would love to see a game company move away from the expectation that blockbuster games will be played by guys.
*Not Halo. I said “decent”.
@Rey Fox
While I find Sims boring after a while, some simulations are really fun. My favorite is Sims City 4. But then again, building a city or destroying them with volcanoes is not something one does in real life.
And, Zerp, now that you’re actually contributing something, my ‘nym is Audley, not Audrey.
(WTF? I can’t underline?)
@Species
Once the fundies find out about the third sex, two nerds having sex will be called nerdosexual and they will try to ban it.
Kemist @ 542;
It is interesting how ‘geeky’ interests can short-circuit the usual gender role calculus*. Nerds seem to fall between the gaps – their interests are supposedly ‘not for girls’ for some reason, implying that it should be a boys club, but geeky interests are also not considered appropriately ‘manly’, and thus male geeks are devalued as men, but not by the usual misogynist means of declaring them ‘effeminate’ because geek stuff is traditionally seen as not associated with women.
It sometimes seems that if the tireless champions of patriarchy had their way, there just wouldn’t be any nerds at all – and this viewpoint is validated when religious morons protest against comicon, and you realise that they have gotten it into their heads that geek culture hails from their basement cat devil, though I think that their true objection springs from the fact that even the most sub-standard expression of geek culture is still better written (and more believeable, superheroes/alien empires/supernatural creatures and all) than their babble.
It must be hard to take when you realise that a story about an improbably muscled chap in ultra-tight spandex has a greater claim to literary competency than your cherished book of religious fairy tales…
*Of course, you still get nerds who are also MRAs, and many aspects of geek culture itself have a problem with an underevolved depiction of female characters, but I don’t think that this is any more pronounced than in any other area of society.
Says you
ibyea @ 551;
*Insert depressingly inevitable, flogged-to-death joke about the improbability of even one nerd ever having sex, let alone two.*
Just wait until the nerdo-phobes start trying to tell the world about how brave they are being taking on the socially and politically all-powerful nerd collective, and the dangers of ‘militant’ nerds trying to ‘convert’ innocent jocks away from manly pursuits into the horrors of comic books and D20s…
@Audley
Exactly the point I tried to make yesterday.
I really enjoy playing computer games, but most of the games now are directed at a very narrow band of interest, granted one that a lot of guys enjoy, but far from all. I can’t stand FPS-games. I used to love adventure games like Monkey Island and the Indiana Jones series back in the Amiga days. Like aspects of MMORPGs too, but not sure the “eternal grind” is my thing in the long run.
I wouldn’t be surprised if there WERE more misogyny among nerds than the general population, simply because a) more of them (us) are male and b) misogyny’s a quick and easy way to score manly-man credibility points.
I’ve been to a LOT of conventions, and the most inclusive nerd-type community I’ve ever encountered hasn’t been the boardgamer crowd (White Male History) or the anime crowd (schoolgirl costumes!) or the comic geek crowd (DC reboot anyone?) or even the steampunk crowd (Victorian-era gender/race roles) or the robotics crowd (severe privilege tendencies).
Nooo, the really accepting, diverse, inclusive nerd community is… the furries. Seriously. They’re the most welcoming bunch of folks I’ve ever met. Even more so than my gay leather guild, and that’s saying something.
You forgot “and in the same time-space coordinates”!
@ Louis:
Just popping in to say that this is probably the funniest thing I’ve read so far today. Can I borrow this and take it out for a spin? :)
Species,
Oop! Sorry, didn’t mean to tread on your toes there. :)
@Audley
No no, you didn’t.
I was just adding to what you said. The point that gaming interest is less about gender and more about that, interest.
Building, yes. Watching other people and building. We moved all over the world when I was a child, so there was never anyone to watch for long. And then I ran away from home; took me years to learn to act like civilized people do.
Sleeping on beds, for instance, took a long time to learn to do again.
I have a laugh, but it literally hurts me to laugh (pounding headache, like a squid on fire, wrapped around my brain.)
I never did manage to get direct access to my emotions, except anger. I can get angry on purpose, but I can’t get anything else on purpose. My emotions just sort of show up and I have to weather them.
But crowds and parties? Not unless I can get good and soused first, but it’s a short list I’d trust with me drunk. I get overstimulated and have to go find a quiet corner and wait until I can focus my eyes.
Species8472 @ 557;
Ah, yes. Got to love the classics.
:-)
Caine, I’m going to wade in waay late on your post @132.
So. My wife makes far more money than I do, and it’s in a hugely male-dominated profession with no affirmative action, ridiculous competition, and enough post-secondary Ivy-league education to keep you in school until you’re 35.
Not only do I have the responsibility to say “I think it’s great, etc”, but I also have the responsibility to say that the sacrifices and horrors that she went through to get to that position as a female are far greater than those required by a male to attain a similar position in her profession.
It’s one thing to scale Everest. It’s another thing entirely to do it carrying the oppressive weight of the patriarchy on your back. I couldn’t have done it.
Those terrible sacrifices need to be broadcast.
@Dr. Audley
“Well, marketing games toward either gender is problematic in and of itself. Since you bring it up, consider the popularity of puzzle games. They’re not marketed toward a particular gender or age group and everyone loves them.”
Puzzles will always be popular. Tons of them get churned out too, because they’re pretty easy to code.
“Your anecdote is noted, though. I happen to be a 30 year old woman and I have been playing video games for well over 20 years. I have absolutely zero interest in the Kinect or rhythm games in general. I tend to avoid puzzle games (although… Bejeweled… I can’t stop). Right now, I’m working on Dead Island, but I’ll be going back to Fallout: New Vegas to finish up the DLC as soon as I’m done with DI.”
You strike me more as an exception, rather than a rule. Most women I have met view video games as something to be fit between other scheduled things. Whereas most men I have talked to about video games will actually schedule out like 6 hours to sit down and play one game. That could just be a difference in personality or region or something like that. I realize that there is no such thing as anecdotal evidence, as anecdotes are meaningless, but that is my personal experience. Also, I’m talking about people outside the “nerd” subculture. There are tons of female gamers playing everything in there.
“*Not Halo. I said “decent”.”
You can tell me to cram various unpleasant objects into various bodily orifices, insult my intelligence, call me a sexist and an idiot. I’ll laugh it off. But those are fighting words. Let’s not say things we can’t take back. Halo is fantastic. When I get done with work, I’m going to go home, enjoy a bottle of Jagermeister and play through Reach.
ARBITRARY SIDE NOTE:
Is Dead Island worth buying? I’ve considered getting it, but I’m kind of sour on zombie games after the train-wreck that was the Left 4 Dead series.
The antidote to that game is the DVD set of the old MTV series, Daria.
god awful shooters like Halo.Wars have been fought over lesser blasphemies than this.
Grr.. I double-checked that blockquote, even.
I feel like most of them would fail the elevator test though.
I’ve never bought the idea that society shapes individuals to the extent that PZ seems to imply. Why is it so taboo to propose that the differences between men and women are part of our nature? This really doesn’t have any bearing on what kind of personality a particular individual has, although I believe that people like PZ are reverse engineering the problem. The reason a video game like this exists is because there is a market for it. There is a market for it because that is what a large cross section of little girls enjoy.
Also: I am not not not old enough for Daria to be called an “old MTV series”.
Though I suppose it does seem like ages since MTV put out anything that wasn’t a reality show about rich/pregnant/both teenagers.
Propose all you want, just be prepared to bring the evidence. You…do have evidence, right?
Woman makes $70k a year. Man makes $30k a year. Man is mocked for making less.
The only appropriate answer is:
“Yep, that’s true. However, together, we make $100k a year. I pay all the bills, she covers the mortgage, and we have enough disposable income to vacation in Europe, have a nice little home theater setup, and the start of a sweet retirement fund. How about you?”
@tuckerch
I’ve seen Daria. It was really, really boring.
Beavis and Butthead was awesome though. It’s coming back on the 27th of this month too!
Rey, I’m pushing 60 years old. I AM the cranky old white man demographic.
EVERYTHING that was good on MTV is old by my standards.
And yes, I have the Daria set. Loved watching them all again.
zerple, alas, you don’t get it.
My sympathies.
@tuckerch
I think I was just disappointed by it, because I was expecting a Beavis and Butthead spinoff to be a little more like Beavis and Butthead.
@James
It is the same kind of argument that leads people to say that girls are not good at math. That is, it makes people assume that girls haven’t been scoring as well as boys because that is how girls are, instead of looking at how socialization might have affected them.
It isn’t. It is, however, taboo to propose that ideas without evidence are somehow more valuable than ideas with evidence, and while many people have proposed this notion, there is very little evidence to support the “nature” argument in most places where its application is attempted. We do, however, have evidence of the influence of learned behavior and exposure on preferences.
Not at all sure what you mean by that.
Or because this is what people are told little girls enjoy, so they buy it for them (remember, the average child has almost no money; most of this stuff is bought by adults for kids). Or because this is what little girls are told they should enjoy.
It’s not quite as easy as “well, people buy it so kids must like it.”
I laughed at Beavis And Butthead but I could relate to the character of Daria more than just about any other character on television.
The Ys #558,
Woot! That was actually a Louis Original!
Most of the other things people have found funny and stolen of late (humblebragging for example) are things I
have shamelessly plagiarisedam paying careful homage to.;-)
Of course you may use it, I am honoured.
Louis
Zerple,
I think you missed my point, but oh well.
Halo is repetitive and boring. It offers nothing new too the genre.
I’m enjoying Dead Island, but I’ve found the learning curve to be steep. The weapon mod system/repair system works well and the melee combat is good.
No local multiplayer, though.
Even when it’s based on the smart girl from that show?
Much like Arrested Development, I’m surprised that Daria lasted as long as it did, being decidedly a red-headed stepchild on that network.
Daria was really only a Beavis & Butthead spinoff in a very loose sense. The character of Daria was not a Mike Judge idea, she came from one of the other writers when they decided B&B needed a female foil. She didn’t play a huge role on B&B, and her character was changed somewhat between shows. And there is really no continuity between the two shows; Daria appeared in the B&B series finale despite being on her own show set in a different town at the same time.
James: It is nearly impossible to separate biology from social influence in human behavior. The closest we’ve come is comparative studies on societies or on children who have been horrifically traumatized. Since it’s not ethical to raise children in boxes (no matter what Skinner said), we cannot come to a substantive conclusion on the influence of biology. There’s no possible control group.
What we can do is note the influence of social conditions on decision-making, which tells us very quickly that social conditions are extraordinarily influential. The above thread has a ton of links and evidence. You should read it.
You know, it’s hard to be a nerdgirl like me. If I want geeky shirts that look cool, I usually have to go in the guy section. Most of my shirts are men shirt. I don’t really *mind*, they’re so loose and comfortable, but I like loose babydolls… Shorter sleeves and all.
Unfortunately when I go for girl shirts I usually get to see dumb “cute” shit. Or pink. And I hate pink. (I own one pink t-shirt, and it’s male sized with a shooting Megaman on it. And a 0 life meter on the back. It kicks ass.) It’s near impossible to get badass designs like the guys get. Oh don’t get me wrong, some of the cute designs are worth buying, but it’s still making me cringe that these designs don’t exist for men because they aren’t MANLY ENOUGH for men!
My youth and younger adult life was a mess. I don’t dress like a typical girl because it annoys the hell out of me. Tight pants? Pisses me off. I like my jeans as loose as humanly possible. Tight shirts? Preferably not. And don’t shove that string up my buttcrack. I like regular panties, thank you very much. And no makeup. So I have pores. My god.
Of course, this meant I was a social outcast. My little girly sister kept telling me I should dress up and paint my face. And wear heels (so I can undoubtedly break my ankle. What’s her problem, why does she want me in the hospital?) Teenage shallow girls on the bus sometimes point and laugh at me. But I don’t give a damn anymore. Now I have my crowd, and they like the geekness. Maybe the girls in my crew dress up more girly than me but they don’t bitch at my look. They love my shirts, they love my style. I know how a computer works, where I’m not scared of getting dirty with grease should I have to fuck around in something gross. I got my DS and PSP (and now 3DS), I’m not scared of taking it out of my bag and looking like a social outcast. I kick ass.
So if I’m not a girl, well fuck that, I’ll be an alien. I’m cool with it.
@Audley
“No local multiplayer, though.”
Lack of local multiplayer is kind of a deal breaker for me. I’m a social gamer more than anything. I used to enjoy solo games, but then I just kind of stopped. I’m not sure why, but now I can’t stand them.
“Halo is repetitive and boring. It offers nothing new too the genre.”
It’s only repetitive because there is absolutely no way they could cram more awesome into a single video game with driving people to babbling insanity or causing brain aneurysms. Halo is so awesome that it warps the very fabric of the space time continuum. In fact, the only reason it appears to offer nothing new, is because every game in the genre is a pale attempt to copy Halo. Even games that preceded Halo were just attempts at copying Halo. It can send blinding waves of awesome back through time.
Between Daria and Nirvana (Kurt Cobain was actually a vocal feminist), the 90s were actually a pretty decent time to be a teenage girl.
I’ve been listening to Nirvana again more lately. Another band from the 90s that I’ve been picking up again is Skunk Anansie, a British alt-rock band that was fronted by a black woman who shaved her head and calls herself “Skin.”
Local multiplayer is being phased out because it allows multiple people to play a video game without every one of them having to buy a copy, or so a little birdie told me.
@Rey Fox
Still, I thought she was funnier as a foil on B&B. Every single time, no matter how prepared I was for it, I laughed at Beavis’ little “Diarrhea cha-cha-cha” song he sang at her.
When she had her own show, she just came across as whiny, boring and kind of slow to me.
I guess I’ve got sort of a cultural divide with the people in here. I didn’t like Nirvana either. I’ve always really liked Shock Rock, so things like GWAR and Marilyn Manson were more interesting to me.
This goes a long way towards explaining your sexist blind spots, Zerple.
Shock does nothing for me. I lived through the seventies and saw Marilyn Manson when he was called Alice Cooper.
Over a decade old but captures how well shock works.
When she had her own show, she just came across as whiny, boring and kind of slow to me.
Kind of slow? Really? I have no idea what you were watching.
Reminder, close the commands.
@Strange – Not liking Nirvana makes me a sexist? I am confused.
So long for now. I’m on my way to Yosemite to clean fireplaces for two days. Then to Reno via Tioga Pass and Mono Lake. Then Amtrak across the country – hmm, sleeping sitting up in coach, that should be fun – and a dreaded visit with some of my family, the oldest and crankiest ones. Well, they’re not despicable, I don’t have any reason to complain; if I hope to be really old some day I hope my friends and younger relatives will still visit me even when I’ve gone nearly deaf and really cranky.
I don’t know how much – if at all – I will have computer access for the next week. Don’t burn the place down while I’m gone, kids !
Happy sleepover to the sheepie contingent. I’d sure a lot rather be with you than on the trip I’m going on. (But I do get to look at some spectacular scenery.) Catch y’all later.
Oops, wrong thread, belongs in TET. Oh well, sorry.
@Janine – Just kind of observing and complaining and not taking any action was what made her seem slow to me. That combined with the slow, monotonous, mind-melting, droning sound that character used as a voice.
@Strange – Not liking Nirvana makes me a sexist? I am confused.
You are confused if you think that was all SallyStrange was saying.
Maybe if Daria spoke more like Quinn.
‘snort’
Zerple
being sexist =/= having sexist blind spots
@Janine
I rarely understand what Strange is saying. I’m bad at understanding her.
@Strage – So I have “sexist blindspots” because I don’t like Nirvana? I am still confused.
Extremely confused!
I am laughing out loud now!
Here is a hint, Nirvana is hardly SallyStrange’s main point.
Okay, clarification.
This goes a long way towards explaining why you have blind spots about sexism. In other words, you can’t see sexism when it’s present, even when you are writing it yourself.
If you’d been listening/watching stuff with a more feminist bent, like Daria or Nirvana, probably your blind spots would be smaller.
I am beyond confused. I am going to stop talking for a while and go back to coding.
I’ll see you later various thread people.
@Strange Thanks for the clarification.
But SallyStrange, Daria’s voice was too mind melting.
I mean, Daria was smart. Yeah, she spoke in a monotone, but it escapes me how someone could interpret that as her character being slow. Boring to listen to, sure, but not slow.
You’ve tone trolled yourself, Zerple–you allowed Daria’s superficial style of delivery to overshadow the actual content of her words and character.
Smart and detached. That was how Daria broke with being a stereotypical female character on TV. Because girls are supposed to be oh so sociable.
One point, SallyStrange, plenty of frat boys love the song Polly. They seem to have missed the point of the song.
Personally, I don’t get that much out of grunge (being a die-hard death-metaller and all), but I really love what it did for popular music. As one of my favorite articles on the subject put it:
http://www.avclub.com/articles/part-1-1990-once-upon-a-time-i-could-love-you,45892/
And look how that gets interpreted: Daria wasn’t smart and detached, she was boring, monotone, and slow. Despite the obvious evidence to the contrary. Yeah, no sexism there.
Fascinating case study, Zerple. Thanks for being the guinea pig.
Yeah, I know. Disgusting. But listen to what Kurt himself had to say about it:
The more I learn about him, the more my sadness at his premature departure is magnified.
I was not a fan of Nirvana, I heard what they were doing in different underground bands in the eighties. But I loved that they hit and hit big. Hair metal bands disappeared. While bands like Husker Du and Sonic Youth were already signed to major labels (Oh, the controversies!) a strange signing spree happened. Just in Chicago, it seemed that half the bands in Wicker Park were signed. (Varuca Salt famously played only a handful of sets before they were signed.) More attention was paid to Riot Grrl acts then what would have a decade before and a decade lated. Bikini Kill and Le Tegre could almost be called mainstream will Sleater-Kinney did have a mainstream following.
Yeah, I miss those days. But it could be that I also miss my youth and enthusiasm.
I was just wondering about this. Since women generally have far less free time at home than men do, maybe most women don’t have six hours to sit down and play one game. Most of my gamer acquaintances are guys, but I seem to remember hearing a lot of mentions of them playing while the wife/girlfriend makes dinner, or having to stop playing because there’s only one gaming rig in the household and “she” wants a turn. (This happens with the gay couples too: one guy’s playing while telling us his partner’s making dinner. Buh?)
—different topic—
Well, in my limited experience, furry social spaces like conventions have ground rules which are socially enforced. “Ask before touching” is one. “Keep the sex in its own spaces” is another. And “Respect differences” gets enforced with great fervor, right down to disabilities and dietary restrictions. They aren’t the smoothest, but from what I’ve seen, they really care about treating each other as equals. The goodwill’s beyond any other group I’ve hung out with, except possibly for Maker Faire.
Gilielle
Um, my example was referring to identical twins. (girls btw)
I made the observation that all babies are born with a unique personality including identical twins. Therefore, genes are not the only influence on personality.
I am in complete agreement over your observation about toys.
I got into some huge arguments with grandparents over that very issue. The result was that when my sons asked for dolls or an ez-bake oven for their birthday that is what they received. (though it still raises my ire that I had to explain that since boys grow up to be fathers and they also eat I was quite sure the toys wouldn’t turn them gay, and that grandparents homophobia was noted…grrr)
Tethys
@Inane Janine
“One point, SallyStrange, plenty of frat boys love the song Polly. They seem to have missed the point of the song.”
I don’t understand what you’re getting at. The song was about a rape victim wasn’t it? So why would frat boys simply liking the song point to they having missed the point? I am not a big fan of Nirvana or of grunge in general so maybe I am missing something.
@Strange
I don’t think that perceiving Daria as slow is sexist or a sexist blindspot. If you switched the gender of the character and turned Daria into Darrel, Darrel would be just as boring, monotone and still come across as slow to me.
Zerple, when you say “slow,” do you mean “dumb”? Because that’s how I’m interpreting it.
Read SallyStrange’s post at 615, adafuns =^.^=. That should answer your question.
@Pteryxx
I see that too sometimes, that’s not really how it works in my home though. My wife is still doing undergrad, so usually she’s stuck writing papers or doing homework of other sorts. She cooks when we can. Other times we just order pizza or Chinese.
Zerple: Daria gave monologues about her experiences sometimes, yes, but it’s amazing how often listening to women talk is labeled boring, monotonous, a distraction from something important, etc. And tone of voice is one of a list of minor objections used to dismiss the content of women’s speech, because women’s selves are considered boring, monotonous, etc, except where it concerns the sex some guy wants to have with her.
Pteryxx: Yep. I love gaming, could do it for hours, except for this pesky work/life thing. And part of the reason I love PC gaming is that it’s MY RIG, MINE, ALL MINE. I BUILT IT. CAN’T KICK ME OFF, IT’S MINE.
My partner doesn’t get to roll eyes and say “I have to get off because she wants a turn,” unlike my experiences with consoles, where that “she” (me) is always interrupting the fun by asking for a turn on my own device.
I ask about your intended meaning of the word “slow,” Zerple, because if you do mean that your impression of Daria was that she was dumb, well, that’s an impression that is objectively false. Like her or hate her, the Daria character was a bright, intelligent person. That was, in fact, an essential, defining aspect of her character.
In addition to the other problems with your impressions that Pteryxx listed.
Starting to see what I mean about blind spots?
Just leaping in to say I tend to passive/navigation and my wife has the controller when we game. Co op does not work well for us, she is very aggressive and I am a hoarder so our playstyles are constantly diverging.
???
@Zerple:
Zerple, I have a question. Given that we’re discussing why gaming, in general, is skewed towards men, why did you think that your particular experience was relevant?
Another question, and I don’t need to actually see your answer to this, I just want you to consider it. Look back at what you just said. When your wife is stuck doing homework, what are you doing?
@Inane Janine
I did read that post and still do no get it. Are you implying that there’s a link between frat boys and rape? Or maybe its linking misogyny to frat boys? If its the latter then I guess I understand, but really are frat boys generally misogynistic? I have little experience with them being a first year college student. I hope they are not since I am thinking of joining one as being very sociable in college can help me career wise.
@ Adafuns
Does that help to answer your question?
…I don’t know if I have the heartlessness to answer this.
Not nearly as much as studying a lot can.
For concrete examples of the links between fraternity culture and sexual violence, try reading through this thread.
@Sally Strange
Holy shit!
Not all frats boys are misogynistic. But speaking as an outsider, it seems that a few frats are exceedingly misogynistic. For a fine example of misogynistic frat boy infestation of this blog, go to the SB version of this blog and search for “No means yes. Yes means anal.” and MaxH.
Adafuns,
There is at least one regular commenter here who is a frat member and pretty firmly not in the misogyny camp so I wouldn’t say that one can’t travel that path and maintain integrity. However, there is a lot of history related to fraternities and mistreatment of women. Be up front about your beliefs and you may find little welcome at many of them.
___
AE,
I wish that were true, but the world places an abnormal value on who you know in far to many careers. The real question is whether it’s worth being less of a person just to further one’s carreer. I should hope not, but there are people who would view things the other way.
I see that SallyStrange long beat me to it.
Wasn’t that about the time that you became a regular?
Yeah, that was really the first Pharyngula thread where I unleashed my inner misogynist-stomping beast.
As for sociability helping one’s career–it’s probably about 50-50 with actual smarts and qualifications. So being social is important. But there are other ways to be social without joining a fraternity. And there are a few fraternities here and there that deliberately eschew typical frat culture. But they are exceptions to the rule.
Species8472,
Hooray for other fans of adventure games. Developers have not made games for me in a long time. I miss adventure games a great deal. Most of what I play these days is older adventure games, or amateur games. For the most part action oriented games do not hold my interest, I am not very good at them either. Apparently I am the wrong part of the 20 something male crowd they target.
BTW: What is it with frats? I have never really understood this. What percentage of people actually belong to one? There have never been many fraternities at the schools I have gone to (when I got my undergraduate degrees I was not even aware they existed in Canada because I had never seen a frat house in town) and I have never known anyone that was in one. Surely there must be better ways to meet people and make connections.
@Antiochus
Well a lot of studying goes without saying, but who you know helps and every little bit to help me is the way I see it. However I guess I will have to rethink my eagerness to join one of these fraternities. The thread linked about the Yale students was shocking and will definitely be reading it in the near future. Maybe they aren’t all like that, or am I being to optimistic?
This isn’t about frats specifically; but here’s a summary of Lisak’s research on undetected rapists on college campuses:
Linked in thread Sally Strange gave above, here: source
I think you’re being a bit optimistic, adfuns. Frankly, any all-male society in this culture is likely to be active in perpetuating rape culture. There are some frats that are co-ed. If you must join one, I’d advise looking for one of those. And there are always the academic fraternities that go along with your major. Like I said, there are many options in college for being social without joining a frat. It just depends on what your interests are.
Here is when MaxH makes his first appearance.
While skimming through it, I saw that DominEditrix made some comments. Those had to be among the last things she posted here.
Well, the first step is just to realize that this goes on. Rape is common and most of it’s committed by predators camouflaged as ordinary nice guys. Given that, all there is to do is recognize that when somebody brags about getting girls drunk, or “persuading” them or some such, it’s a very bad sign that shouldn’t be brushed off as a joke.
@Sally Strange
Thanks for all the advice as I’m new to college and still trying to figure things out.
Sally:
Okay, I hope you’re painting with an overly broad brush there, especially with the “active in perpetuating” comment. I understand the sentiment, however: one should probably assume an all-male society is at least pushing patriarchy if not active misogyny until proven otherwise; else, why be “all-male”? But then, I’m gay, and most of my experience with all-male groups are that way for decidedly different reasons :)
But yes, the “girls not allowed” concept is automatically suspect.
No problem, adafuns. If you ever need more advice about college (or whatever), go ahead and ask in The Endless Thread. I graduated recently, but I was a non-traditional student, so my experiences are a bit different from a typical 18-year-old entering college for the first time. But there are many people here who are, like me, passionate about the benefits of higher education and absolutely adore dispensing advice. And there are several people who are taking classes right now. So it could be a good resource.
Richard Austin,
unless it’s an all-male group that specifically got together to fight the patriarchy, then yes, it’s likely that its values are congruent with those of rape culture. If they’re not actively fighting rape culture, then they’re probably reinforcing it/perpetuating it. As Howard Zinn said, you can’t be neutral on a moving train.
Interesting. Next time I get into a big women-in-sci-fi discussion with the gay leather guild, I’ll try and take careful note of what they say. (So far, I haven’t noticed; but then I might not, if I weren’t looking.)
@Caine, Fleur du Mal,
“Think women have achieved equality? Think again: We can’t be equal while”
Where did I say women have achieved equality? What the fuck. Honestly. Do you people read? I’M SUPPORTING YOUR CAUSE.
“Also, Cameron, you are so damn buried in privilege, I’m surprised you can breathe. Again, referencing the bit of yours I quoted in #486, you’re oozing privilege. You expect that a woman must behave a certain way simply in order for you to listen. You think that men must only be approached a certain way by a woman because men are…men are what, Cameron? Special? In need of coddling? Stupid? What?”
What is going on? Where did I say women must behave a certain way? Where did I say men must be approached a certain way by women?
What the fuck is going on here? I AM SUPPORTING YOUR CAUSE. ALL I SAID WAS PZ SHOULD FOCUS HIS EFFORTS ELSEWHERE WHERE HE CAN DO SOME REAL GOOD. RIcky Gervais just said “cunt” on his blog, it would be pointless if PZ made a blog post about that, it’s not solving the problem is it?
“Two links, Cameron. Click and read. Try to use your brain for something more than coming up with sexist crap to parrot over and over.”
Ad hominem. Learn to argue rationally.
“No one is required to be nice to you and you have not shown a single sign that you deserve it. Around here, you need to earn nice. Just like you need to earn respect.”
I haven’t insulted any of you and you have all insulted me. Why? I’m trying to be nice.
“Clueless Gobshite at Large Cameron”
Ad hominem. Learn to argue.
“So, the woman just has to be nice and get down on her knees and gently persuade a man to give her the time of day and he might, he just might listen and if she was nice enough and really, really lucky, he might even understand!”
a) Not all feminists are women.
b) My point was that when a person who may be unintentionally sexist is asking a feminist (who may be male) why they are doing something that is considered sexist, it would help not to insult the guy when trying to get your point across. The guy may genuinely be interested in the feminist cause but because he lacks the understanding that you may be able to provide him, you insult him.
My argument was: PZ should focus his efforts elsewhere in the feminist movement such as atheism and science as he can actually make a difference there.
The replies I have received: I get called names, insulted and told I’m a sexist.
My friends watched the Kardashians the other day (yes, I gave them shit for doing so as they are guys) and were complaining Kim didn’t take Chris’ last name now that they’re married. They were shocked she wasn’t forced to take his last name. I was shocked my friends thought that way, when I’m married I’m open to any four scenarios:
My future wife wanting to take my last name
My wife and I both keeping our last names
I take her last name
We combine last names.
It doesn’t bother me which one ‘we’ choose.
Just because I disagree with PZ’s methods, doesn’t make me a sexist. So why do you all think that I am? I’m offering my opinion on ways that I think may better the cause via PZ’s blog, I’m not disagreeing with the movement, I agree there is inequality between the sexes. The only time my argument touched upon PZ’s particular argument was to say that boys also grow up with social pressures as well as girls. The difference being guys aren’t treated unfairly in today’s society where women are (which is sad).
I think at this point you guys are just going to keep using ad hominem arguments because you’ve gone too far too back-track now that you realise I actually am supporting the feminist cause.
“And you don’t see how you’re a sexist asspimple? Amazing. In that little bit of your bullshit that was quoted, you have expressed and reinforced entrenched sexist attitudes and speech (well, writing).”
Ad hominem. WHERE IS YOUR ARGUMENT? Where are your premises? Where is your supporting evidence?
Your argument:
“You don’t see how what you’re saying is sexist?”
“It’s because you’re sexist”.
“Again, with the “women must be nice” crap. Girls are conditioned to be nice and non-assertive from early childhood. Did you read Hairhead’s post @166? Let me guess, that would be a big fat no, because you spouting your bullshit and sexist tripe all over is ever so much more important than bothering to read what people (who aren’t you) are saying.”
1) I addressed this earlier
2) I never said women must be nice. You’re alienating men from the feminist movement by saying that too as in my argument you quoted I addressed feminists not women.
“It is not our job to educate you. The fact that you blithely write sexism filled posts and manage to ask what’s wrong with society…fuck, you’re too thick.”
You expect the rest of society to just pick up on all the causes feminists fight for? Obviously, a lot of people don’t have a problem with inequality in society seeing as it still exists. People need it to be pointed out for them.
“I’ll tell you what’s wrong with society – people like you.”
What is with you guys and PZ? WHY CAN’T SOMEONE DISAGREE WITH HIS METHODS AND NOT BE A SEXIST? Fucking hell…
“People wrapped up all warm and safe inside their own privilege tend to say crap like this. Thanks for telling us there isn’t a problem, really. Idiot.”
I’m shocked, another ad hominem. I’m still waiting for your argument.
mouthyb, whose brain is currently melon-balled says:
“Cameron: The above game is a clear example of a problem. I’d think that if, as you say, you are worried about the problem, you’d appreciate a clear example.
Of course, you go on to tell us that we’re all talking about it too much, which leads me to favor Caine’s reading of your comment.”
Yay, no ad hominem. Thanks.
I see where you are coming from. I added in my argument somewhere above that Ricky Gervais is a frequent user of the word “cunt” on his blog. What PZ is doing in this blog post is the equivalent to pointing out Ricky Gervais likes the word cunt. It’s not going to change what Gervais says, all that is going to happen is a bunch of us are going to argue on PZ’s forum.
My suggestion was that PZ go back to his older methods of discussing inequality in areas such as atheism and science where he is an influential figure and can make (and has) a real difference.
I appreciate your reply.
echidna says:
“PZ should do something similar (posting things about inequality amongst free-thinkers and atheists is a good start), not post about video games.
Are you seriously telling PZ what he should do on his own blog? You must have an inflated sense of your own importance in the scheme of things.”
PZ can’t take suggestions? My argument was a suggestion, obviously I’m in no position to dictate what he does on his own blog…
Caine…
“Oh is Cameron blathering away again, with his giant bucket of bullshit?
I thought you said we were all talkin’ about this too much, you idiot. So why in the fuck are you bothering us? Go away.”
Ad hominem, is that all you know? You’d fail a philosophy course in critical thinking pretty damn quick with arguments like those.
“Cameron
You’re an idiot.
If you’d bothered to read the comments you’d have seen that the video game is one drop in a gigantic sea. You’d have seen the multiple complaints of parents who see their children, especially the daughters bullied into such roles.
But you didn’t bother.
So, take the short way out and don’t forget your porcupine.”
Ad hominem and I discussed the second part of your argument above where I pointed out I argued against PZ’s methods, not message.
“Cameron
I know you asked Audley, but Imma go ahead and answer your question because I got my ass handed to me for asking a similar question at one point on this blog.
PZ is not only an Athiest and a Freethinker, he is also a Feminist. So he posts about feminism, and as a feminist that video game pisses him off.
Every single ever-loving time he posts about feminism, someone has to comment about how that particular example is not even worthy of notice, a complete waste of time, what about the menz! (or muslima in a notable recent shitstorm)
It’s nothing but a silencing technique. Don’t do it!! You are not the blog owner, and it isn’t apparent from your post that you know the first thing about feminism.
Now add something substantive to the discussion of harmful gender stereotypes being perpetuated by media or shut up and listen.
You do not get to decide the topic is not worthy of discussion.”
THANK YOU! I’ve been waiting for reasonable discussion and argument. I really do appreciate it, I’m sick of writing ad hominem all the time.
Your argument is a good one. The only criticism I would add is that I was offering opinions and suggestions and everything thinks I was demanding PZ to change his blogs. Obviously I can’t do that, It was a mere suggestion.
I’m in to feminism like I’m in to politics, I don’t really follow it at all but I have ideals in my mind that I think relates to a particular way of thinking. I like to think I support feminists causes and if I had the chance to vote on them, I would. Then again, I don’t follow feminism nor keep up to date with all the happenings of it so I’m not necessarily a role model in that department. I just wanted to voice my opinion and see if my suggestions were any good or if someone else agreed with them. It was my opinion that PZ could do better for the cause by changing his methods, your argument is right in that PZ is merely pointing out social pressures girls and women face as to alert his readers to examples.
I still think PZ should focus his efforts elsewhere but then again, his post probably only took a few minutes to write and it’s not like that is all that he does in supporting feminism as he also talks about it at conferences I believe.
Cheers for the reasonable discussion.
P.S. I do hear this “shut up and listen” thing a lot and I agree with it to the point where a non-feminist may need to ask questions for clarification. Kids don’t learn at school by sitting there and being told what to do and if they don’t understand the question, they have to shut up and hope they figure it out.
Anyway, thanks to the author of the last quote in my argument and perhaps one other somewhere above in the jumbled mess of replies.
@Pteryxx
“Zerple, I have a question. Given that we’re discussing why gaming, in general, is skewed towards men, why did you think that your particular experience was relevant?”
I thought it added to the thread. Plus I was trying to contrast what I’ve seen against what Audley said.
“Another question, and I don’t need to actually see your answer to this, I just want you to consider it. Look back at what you just said. When your wife is stuck doing homework, what are you doing?”
While she’s doing homework? Sometimes I work on freelance projects, sometimes I do nothing of value. I graduated a while ago. I am done with homework, she gets stuck with papers and all kinds of other fun things in her pursuit of a degree. I used to be in that boat, I’m glad I’m not anymore.
@Dhorvath
Cooking is a strange and magical art, which I am not capable of. I’ve tried. Things end up undercooked, or on fire. THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND! I always make a mess that takes so long to clean up that all the benefits of cooking are defeated by having to clean it. My skills in the kitchen begin and end with the more basic functions of the microwave oven.
My wife likes to cook, and is extremely good at it, but does not always have time, as student life is pretty busy, so we frequently order food (probably 5-6 days a week). We’re both also pretty fond of raiding the local farmer’s market for vegetables to cut up and eat. There is weird old farmer guy there who sells very light green cucumbers which might be the most delicious thing possible to attain on this planet.
Note that I said, “probably.”
As in, “roughly more than 50% of the time.”
My personal opinion only. I would imagine that groups of men who get together specifically because they’re gay men have a rather different probability spread than the nominally hetero groups I was thinking of when I made my original statement.
And I do apologize for the heterosexism inherent in my assumption there.
Cameron has gotten all testerical on us.
That’s going in the toolkit.
Sally Strange, OM @ 648;
Agreed. Any group with such an arbitrary limitation on membership is vulnerable to the formation of an unexamined, self-reinforcing internal discourse. Once group-think sets in it is quite possible that all manner of pretty nasty stuff can become normalised. In an all male group, the liklihood of some form of sexism, if not out and out misogyny, taking root is high, and even the relatively less harmful forms of sexism go hand-in-glove with rape culture through the replication of such memes as the ‘coquetish’ woman who is just ‘playing hard to get’ – a common variant on the ‘they all want it really’ trope.
The problem is exacerbated by the fact that our culture is so saturated in patriarchal imagry that it is relatively unlikely that the members would even be consciously aware of what is happening unless they knew what to look for and were seeking to combat it. Education is the best way to go, but any attempt to pursue that idea ends up with derisory jokes about ‘sensitivity training’ and whining tirades about ‘uber-PC feminazis’.
Wiki article on learned helplessness
NY Magazine article which discusses the role learned helplessness plays in the economics of household chores
Think. Read. Think.
Zerple,
I don’t know you, but that reeks of excuse, not reality. t is the kind of excuse I have been offered by numerous male acquantances both during school and into my working life. You will have to excuse my incredulity that every single one of these people is actually incapable of cooking.
Cooking is not some mysterious art only accessible to initiates of some arcane religious order, nor is it an innate talent that some have and others don’t. If you can send an email, record a program off of tv, or, for that matter cut up vegetables, you can make meals. I spend about five minutes an evening prepping food, I use a timer to make sure things don’t over cook, and when something does, I make a note to either use less time or a lower temperature the next time. Within that context there is very little I can’t make, including pizza (incredibly easy!) and all manner of stir fried goodies.
SallySally:
Actually, I don’t know how different such a curve would be.
There is a least a modicum (if not a lot) of repressed or not-so-repressed anti-woman aggression in some gay culture. Now, often it’s based on bad personal experience usually related to discrimination, but some of it is just of the “girls are icky” type. Further, even when anti-woman bias isn’t present, there is still a lot of “men act like this”/”men look like this” attitude, which is at least supporting some of the notions of patriarchy and sexism even if it isn’t actively anti-woman.
Sure, gay dating groups are all-male for a specific reason, but outside that the issue gets a lot more vague.
Apology accepted (at least by me), though based on the above I don’t know that it was needed.
I apologized not necessarily because my idea was inaccurate, but because in my initial formation, I was unconsciously thinking men == heterosexual men. That’s where the heterosexism came in.
But thanks anyway.
Ah, well, I apologize for misunderstanding, and retract my first acceptance and formulate a second one :)
Cameron @ 650;
If you are going to accuse people of emplying the ad hominem logical fallacy, it would help if you used the term correctly.
In short, insult and ad hominem are not synonomous.
As an example, saying that; “Person A is wrong because person A is a moron”, would be an ad hominem.
However, saying that; “Person A is a moron. They are wrong because *valid reason*”, is not an ad hominem.
But that is the problem. Tackling the toxic social construction of femininity that underpins and enables misogyny means tackling the system as a whole. Every day there are quite literally millions of instances of individually minor events where restrictive gender roles are reinforced and memes of female submission and inferiority are replicated. The game itself is just one in a sea of such instances, but that does not mean that it should be allowed to pass without comment – silence is often read as endorsement, and a game that depicts women as shallow, fashion obssessed idiots who are fixated on clothes and boyfriends (and their money) contributes to a social discourse that writes off women as ditzy non-entitites with nothing of value to contribute to any issue of moment. Is it as bad as stonings? No. Does that mean it is acceptable or doesn’t matter? Definately not.
and;
I have heard the argument that people from the UK employ that phrase differently and that it is not seens as a gendered insult in Britain.
I don’t buy it.
I am a Brit, and I have always considered ‘c*nt’ to be a gendered insult, and as such I do not use it. The fact that a prominent comedian like Gervais – a comedian with a high profile on both sides of the Atlantic and thus I assume a knowlege of the connotations of that phrase in the US – employed the term is worthy of discussion. Context matters here. Did he use it for illustrative purposes, for example during a debate, or was it employed as an insult? If the term was employed as an insult, then it is worth highlighting that the language is offensive and dehumanizing to women, whether or not Gervais realizes the fact and whether or not he stops using the phrase. You may decry the outcome as simply arguing on PZ’s blog, but this blog is part of the discourse. It is part of a network of progressive blogs and sites that put a countervailing viewpoint out onto the internet, a viewpoint that says it is not OK to use a slang term for part of a woman’s body as an insult. It is the only way to raise consciousness about everyday, mundane sexism – one incident at a time. Taking the time to say that this language should not be ignored or normalised. It will be a long road, but the patriarchy is so entrenched at every level of our culture that there are no quick fixes, no ‘silver bullet’ solutions.
Such a hypothetical post wouldn’t just be about Gervais, it would be about trying to get through to at least some of the people who read that post (or encountered other sentiments like it) and convince them that language matters, that the replication of harmful memes has a direct, negative effect on society, and that this is not something that can just be ignored.
Cameron
You’re welcome. My nym is right at the top of my post. Since you did read and quote my post, it would be cool if you could do me the respect of noting my nym. You did manage to note the nyms of the other posters so I know you can do it.
Speaking of those other posters (Caine, Audley,Pteryxx,Sally sorry if I missed anyone) not one of those is an ad hominem. They are what is known as the clue-by-four method of getting your attention, and they are in response to this gem:
You consider it an irrelevant non-issue? Thanks for reinforcing the status quo, but it is in fact CENTRAL to the greater scheme of things as far as gender roles are concerned. You displayed your ignorance in a rather arrogant manner, and were rightly called on it.
In order to change a behavior/society, you must first actually be aware of the problem. See the red pill thread for further reading (use search) or ASK anyone here if you don’t understand what the problem is.
We ARE changing attitudes through raising awareness, and we would appreciate your help in making the world a better place for everyone.
Pteryxx:
Thanks. :)
Rey:
I think so. It was about 10:30 am when I headed to bed. I’m nocturnal.
Mouthyb:
Yeah, that’s a tough one. Managing the absolute fury which seemed to be the only genuine bit of ‘me’ over the years, well, it’s not fun. It gets easier over the years, but that’s cold comfort.
scriabin @ 563:
You won’t get an argument out of me. Good on your wife, she sounds like a remarkable person. Good on you too.
Zerple:
You know, Zerple, you just described how you’ve come across to me since you showed up here – whiny, boring and kind of slow.
adafuns, on frat boys – read this post and thread: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/10/boys_will_berevolting_misogyni.php
[meta]
Caine, re the frat boys thread, Sally cited it @633, Janine linked to it @643.
(Yours is an independent reference)
John, ah well. That’s what I get for skimming quickly and replying rather than reading carefully, which is what I’m doing now. Tea is helping to remedy my sloppiness. :)
[meta]
Cameron, as others have noted, you’re confused.
(sententiam ad hominem ≠ argumentum ad hominem)
John, actually, SallyStrange linked to the thread first. I linked to MaxH’s opening remark.
Caine, I told Rey Fox that you are a creature of the night.
Janine:
I just saw that and his response. How did he know what I do at night!? Now I have the song running through my head…
I wanna be dirty
Thrill me, chill me, fulfill me
Creature of the night
Tell us about it, Janet.
Great galloping tealdeer!
Re: bell hooks analogy – I must post a correction. It was actually Marilyn Frye. I think I read both of them at much the same time, back in the mid-80s. I think bell hooks impressed me more – perhaps my first introduction to intersectional feminism? Which Frye also wrote about, but as a white woman grappling for the first time with her privilege. Using that term, “privilege”, back in 1983. Anyway, even if I was wrong on the specific, do read some bell hooks anyway!
Correct reference: Marilyn Frye, The Politics of Reality: Essays in Feminist Theory, Crossing Press, 1983.
And having finally got the author right, it’s now possible to find the entire essay online! Also from the same book, thoughts on being white.
Thanks, Alethea. Bookmarked!
Ah, once again procrastination pays off! Thanks for the link Alethea.
Data point here: StumbleUpon sent me to this video. Tell me that ad is intended for both genders. Just tell me that, I dare you.
(For those without access to YouTube: it’s a trailer for Battlefield 3, with “99 Problems”* by Jay-Z playing.)
* Best known for its refrain:
“If you’re having girl problems, I feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but a bitch ain’t one”
The essay has aged pretty well, I think.
Back on games: if you like D&D style parties with magic missile spells and combat with your +3 sword of whatever, but you also want a story – look into Spiderweb software. It’s very old school, and the graphics are pretty ancient, but they all have long overarching stories with which you can choose several approaches to change the whole story. Pick an allegiance… and change it by your actions. And the characters – including NPCs – are a good mix of genders and races, with a couple of non-human races as well. And although the graphics are old, in general your female characters wear sensible clothes. There is usually a battle-bikini barbarian, but her counterpart has a battle-loincloth.
Umm, yeah. Men, household chores and learned helplessness.
My grandfather and my father-in-law were both completely helpless in the kitchen – burn up a pan trying to make jello sorts. Both protested over the entire length of their very long marriages that they couldn’t cook. They’d tried, really they had.
Oddly, when their wives died, both of them learned to cook, quite rapidly, and with very little fuss. Mostly not fancy stuff, but more than adequate for feeding themselves – stir fries, baked chicken, steamed vegetables, etc.
They also figured out washing machines and how to mop floors.
But neither of them saw anything odd about this sudden discovery of ability, nor came to any realization about the workload they’d been dumping on their wives for half-a-century each.
Nor did my FIL have any compunction about going straight back to “can’t cook” as soon as he moved in with us, despite the evidence of two years lived on his own. He “couldn’t manage recipes for more than one,” except for dog food. He didn’t trust me to (over)feed his pooches the right way, so he still cooked quite elaborate meals for his dogs – quite frequently more elaborate than what I made for dinner.
Unless you have serious attentional difficulties, or truly massive disabilities, you can learn to cook at least a little.
Tapetum:
Yep. Even people who really suck at cooking can learn the basics with a little application.
One positive thing about my family, everyone could (and did) cook. All the women, natch, but also my grandfather, great-grandfather and uncles. I think it’s something that has been lost over the last several generations, it used to be that kids, even quite young, were expected to help out, work and that included cooking. All the men in my family could sew as well and none of them had any fear of cleaning. Shit’s gotta be done, so you do it.
Tapetum,
I think you’re hit a home run, there.
Someone quoted a paper above:
“…We conclude that fraternities will continue to violate women socially and sexually unless they change in fundamental ways.”
I agree 100%. Fraternities can start by putting an end to their sytemic policy of kidnapping college girls on campus and dragging them back to their frat house parties against their will, and offering them an open bar. Oh, those evil fraternities!
Ummm… a word to the wise here, guys? Don’t do that.
On a side note, I looked up a recent statistic that will blow your mind. Did you know that 0% of women who choose not to attend frat parties get raped at frat parties? I know, it’s crazy.
Here’s a radical thought: If all women stopped going, men would adjust their behaviour at frat parties and start behaving like Felix Unger. If you don’t like the wild frat scene – if you think it’s too risky – then don’t go. The world will not end if you miss a frat party. But apparently there are enough closet sluts out there who are willing to experiment with their wild side. It is not our business to act as the slut police. Women should be allowed to walk that fine line if they desire.
mercurial:
(Your trolling is feeble yet odious)
Here’s a radical thought: If all men stopped going, women would adjust their behaviour at frat parties and start behaving like Oscar Madison. If you don’t like the wild frat scene – if you think it’s too risky – then don’t go.
It should not need humiliation and a harsh lesson about the current reality to convert the “sluts” into victims.
(The best victim is one who doesn’t realise they’ve been victimised; cf. GWW — women who play the “real life” version of the game PZ decries)
Here is an other radical idea; if all women stopped having any interaction with MM,MM would adjust his behavior and start behaving like a cast member of Glee.
Do not use any lube on your dead porcupine. And use a vigorous circular motion.
Speaking of what men have going for themselves in this world, you do realize it’s all fucking material crap. It’s a gilded cage. The average man ends up working a meaningless 40-year career in a cubicle or worse, and wards off thoughts of suicidal ideation by playing fantasy football or popping meds/drugs. Ladies, don’t compare your dream life to the outliers like Bill Gates or Tiger Woods. The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. Just like women. And that’s the truth. Compare suicide rates of men vs. women, and you’ll see we all suffer. The grass is always greener on the other side, as they say. Frankly, if i had my choice of being a man or a woman, I would have to think hard about why I’d even care for either.
So to all you girls (and guys) who slavishly seek more power and status like a drug — I say fuck you, and your power trip.
Great way to approah any shared set of duties.
My thinking is since we all live here, we all share the responsibility of keeping it maintained.
Besides, cleaning doesn’t have to be some soul crushing task. It’s your place! Put on some music, find a nice groove and bug the hell out of your neighbors with something stupid. (Personal favorite is the soundtrak to Lazy Town.) Make it fun.
MM, I would recommend the lobotomized neutered lifestyle for you.
Assclam.
[meta]
mercurial:
Better either than you, eh? ;)
Yet here you seek derision like a drug.
(Lowest of the low, would you be, if your competence matched your meanness)
Julian:
Hell yeah. I can’t face cleaning the kitchen without mass tunes at high volume set up.
John:
No, it’s seeking attention and derailment and it’s getting both.
“..It should not need humiliation and a harsh lesson about the current reality to convert the “sluts” into victims.”
No harsh lesson is needed to avoid frat party victim-hood. All you need is to read a newspaper or listen to confirmed stories about what can happen at these parties, to realize these can be wild and dangerous scenes for which the benefit of attendance may not outweigh the potential cost.
Rebecca Watson had a “word to the wise” for men on elevators — that the benefit of hitting on a girl in an elevator does not outweight the social cost. And men are expected to listen.
I too have a word to the wise, for college girls on campus. Let the wise listen.
Shorter Cameron: Feminists! Ur doing it rong! “Dear Muslimina…”
Stunningly enough, Cameron, social constructs are complex and addressing something like the establishment and enforcement of gender roles and expectations is part of addressing the problem. Even if you don’t think so.
Gen:
Don’t forget Cameron: You don’t wanna look like a stereotypical feminist, they’re awful! Awful, I tells ya!
So sweet of Cameron to completely ignore all the links I provided and continue to tell us how it really is.
Yes, well, if afeminists would just do whatever the fuck Cameron says they must, they wouldn’t look so horribly awful, now would they! Damn uppity women. Can’t even see when a guy’s trying to help them out.
Caine,
That was the 688th comment.
(I feel free to appease hir penchant at this point; in my defence I plead that re-railmant is hardly relevant by now.
(There’ll be other equality threads))
—
But I can also appease your sense of fairness, so I shall quote the most recent apposite and relevant comment:
— begin quote —
Tapetum says:15 October 2011 at 5:45 am
Umm, yeah. Men, household chores and learned helplessness.
My grandfather and my father-in-law were both completely helpless in the kitchen – burn up a pan trying to make jello sorts. Both protested over the entire length of their very long marriages that they couldn’t cook. They’d tried, really they had.
Oddly, when their wives died, both of them learned to cook, quite rapidly, and with very little fuss. Mostly not fancy stuff, but more than adequate for feeding themselves – stir fries, baked chicken, steamed vegetables, etc.
They also figured out washing machines and how to mop floors.
But neither of them saw anything odd about this sudden discovery of ability, nor came to any realization about the workload they’d been dumping on their wives for half-a-century each.
Nor did my FIL have any compunction about going straight back to “can’t cook” as soon as he moved in with us, despite the evidence of two years lived on his own. He “couldn’t manage recipes for more than one,” except for dog food. He didn’t trust me to (over)feed his pooches the right way, so he still cooked quite elaborate meals for his dogs – quite frequently more elaborate than what I made for dinner.
Unless you have serious attentional difficulties, or truly massive disabilities, you can learn to cook at least a little.
— end quote —
mercurial:
You forgot the quantifier “necessarily” no less than you forgot that its perpetrators are victims too, in a different sense.
“…Yes, well, if afeminists would just do whatever the fuck Cameron says they must, they wouldn’t look so horribly awful, now would they!”
Are you talking to me or Cameron?
“…Damn uppity women. Can’t even see when a guy’s trying to help them out.”
If Watson can preach to men on how to behave, I can preach likwise to women. Or is it only feminist women who are allowed to preach to the opposite sex?
If Feminism is the radical idea that women are people, then what do you call the radical idea that men’s rights should be equal to women’s?
mercurial:
Feminism.
;)
I award John Morales 1 sniny internet.
Yeah, your shit attempt at suggesting an analogue to Watson’s “guys, don’t do that” is utter shit. In nobody’s reality is the problem of male violence solved by telling women, “women, don’t get raped.” At best, lt’s still: “fratdudes, don’t rape people at your little rape parties.”
John:
Unnecessary, as you’d know, since I replied to it. As you won’t stop derailing the thread (and your judgment that it doesn’t matter anymore) I’ll just put you in the killfile for a while. I’m sorry to do it, but I’m not interested in MM’s festering troll crap nor those who insist on quoting it.
I wonder how much of ‘I refuse to clean’ has to do with cleaning being viewed as pauper’s work. That those who clean are beneath those that don’t. (Sorry if this has already been talked about.)
Because of the number of people I know who bristle at the idea of someone who serves food or cleans for a living making more than them, it wouldn’t suprise me to learn it plays a noticeable role. Even if the biggest factor is the conditioning we endure at a young age.
Might even be one of the reasons so many women accept that role. Woman’s work is, afterall, still viewed as less than man’s work by many people (even if not all admit it).
Gen:
Yes, it’s terrible. Really. It’s the reason everything isn’t all roses and unicorn farts. Sometimes, I don’t know why I bother posting links for people like Cameron. Well, here’s hoping they help someone.
[OT + meta]
Caine,
Good!
Now I need not embarrass you by noting how much attention (and weight) I give your comments; this on the basis of long experience. :)
(You earnt your merit in my estimation)
Julian:
I expect that has a lot to do with it, but not as much as the persistent view that it’s “women’s work”.
Really, you know people who get upset about that? Hmmm. I haven’t run into that, but I don’t get out much these days. Anyone who has ever waited tables or cleaned for a living knows just how hard it is, it’s not lightweight work and anytime you get to deal with the public is just another stressor.
People who think that must never cook or clean.
Well, it’s been traditional for women to cook, clean, sew and so on for a long time and it does come down to shit’s gotta be done because I think a lot of women end up with someone who is adamant about not cleaning or cooking and it still has to be done.
Learned helplessness can work, I tells ya! You should see the Bloke’s rolling eyes and wild leap to take charge any time I haplessly attempt to iron a shirt.
If Watson can preach to men on how to behave, I can preach likwise to women.
right.
where shall we send the endless threats of irrational violence then?
wait, you mean you don’t want what happened to Watson to happen to you?
oh, well maybe you mean that as a man, you don’t expect to receive death threats for a simple bit of maintaining sane space.
is that right?
can you hear me calling you a fuckwit yet?
hope so.
simple bit of [advice regarding] maintaining sane space.
I guess I’m an exception.
I’m horrible at cooking… but I enjoy it anyway, and I’m willing to cook (as long as someone is willing to eat).
Really, once you know how to prepare bacon, isn’t everything else superfluous anyway?
… an exception to the “guy feigns incompetence to avoid the task” trope, I mean.
Example: My father gets insulted if anyone insinuates that maybe he shouldn’t gripe about his shirts not being properly ironed because he wouldn’t do it any better. He claims that he can iron perfectly well, after all, he used to do it when he lived on his own. I’m still waiting for him to realize that maybe he could do it on his own now too. Just a suggestion.
Caring for the house/food/laundry is something men are only supposed to do until they find some woman to do it for them. They still know how to do it perfectly afterwards (and don’t spare their advice about doing it properly), but just don’t want to. Wouldn’t want little ladies to be bored at home. :bitter:
video games and nerds
Ehm, I don’t think that the “nerds are the third gender” is very valid. We’ve had plenty of discussions about misogyny in those sub-cultures.
Michelle R
Hmm, have you tried online-shops?
In Germany I know at least one shop that caters for lady-gamers.
Another trick is to buy the men’s shirt with the motive you like, and the women’s shirt with the cut you like, cut out the motive and sew it onto your shirt. Disadvantage is that you have to buy 2 shirts instead of one.
There’s also printable fabric and transfer foils you can print your favourite stuff on.
Zerple
Hmmm, don’t you think that the difference in “gaming as something you do between tasks” and “gaming as the task” might also have to do something with conditioning and society?
I usually find that society is way more accepting of a man having a time-consuming hobby that takes him away from his family for an occasional day, or even holiday, than they are of a woman doing the same. A woman who leaves her family for 3 days just to have fun faces a whole lot of pressure (I can tell you).
BTW, my husband can’t cook either, but you know what he’s brilliant at? Helping me cooking. Peeling potatoes, dicing the carrots, washing the salad, or on our holidays, doing the dishes.
Not being able to cook is no crime, but using it as an excuse not to get involved in it is.
Daria
Only saw her a couple of times, but I really liked her.
Thetys
I think we had a little missunderstanding:
My remark about my two kids being very different although they’re the same sex referred to people explaining the differences in their kids with the different sex.
Women’s work
It is always amazing how some man or other will claim that “of course they love women, and of course they’re equals”, but will also be adamant about not doing some of the messy chores their wives do because they’re “too good” for it. And they won’t see a problem with that.
@John Morales #696, nicely put :)
Housework
When I grew up, my dad was at home cooking and doing the housework while my mom was at work. The reason was that my dad has an illness that eventually got him on welfare. But no one can claim he was a lazy man. He had a full workday at home every single day, maybe except when occasionally he would be drinking instead.
So maybe I never got that whole housework is for women business. I also learned to cook early, because I would be the one doing that when my dad disappeared once a month for a few days to drink with his alcoholic-friends. My slightly younger sister would take care of other housework when these things happened.
But that learned helplessness thing, my granddad definitely had that. So it wasn’t unfamiliar, but not something I was used to.
Fraternities
To me that is a strange American thing that I usually see on movies. So I have really no good idea of what it is, and what is actually real and not movie fantasy. Only real account I have read about it was from Feynman’s book, and the stories were a bit disturbing. The whole thing sounds very strange and alien.
In any case, I started university again when I was 30, so fairly grown up. We have something called (roughly translated) student unions over here (Norway). Usually one on each institute level, and a larger one on faculty level. So one for Physics, and one larger one for Mathematics and Natural Science.
The faculty level organisations here all run their own licensed pub or club. We have 5 of those on campus. These are nothing like fraternities though. They have both guys and girls running them and leading them, equally. The people running the unions and taking on responsibility become a nice social club that is only marginally exclusive. Meaning anyone can get on the inside, but you got to be willing to work for it.
We have over 150 years of tradition: drinking-songs, mascots, rituals and other oddities. Not to mention dramas and intrigues. It is a very unique experience with what seems to be the best parts of fraternities without the misogyny. But then again, feminism is very politically correct in academia here. Very.
Germany does have fraternities, they played an important role in fighting for a unified state and civil rights in the revolution of 1848. But since then, especially after WWII, they’ve largely come to be associated with right-wing, even extremist right-wing ideas. I do know there are exceptions, and Catholic corps and yadda yadda yadda, but just recently the association of German Burschenschaften (that’s the German term) almost split up because one such more liberal Burschenschaft had the audacity to admit a German of Chinese descent. Who had served in the German military and was apparently a proud patriot.
In high school, there were some class mates who joined such an association. They were made fun of (they never had much success in getting many people to join), and one of the things we made most fun of was that they had some events on their schedule for which “ladies [were] welcome”. Fortunately, this has been my experience in university also, a female friend of mine who had boyfriend briefly from such an organisation just found it too weird that this was a men-only thing. Most people claimed they joined for the cheap rent.
(reasons men join these things: other than the booze,low rent room, and the old boys network which can help you later on with finding a job. Especially for lower-middle class with no connections this can be a lifesaver finding a job, unfortunately)
You are not even trying.
whatsinaname @ 714;
Just one little correction; PZ doesn’t merely attempt to ban trolls, he succeeds rather well. We call it ‘dropping the Banhammer’. Who knows, if you stay around long enough, you might get a first hand view of the process yourself…
whatsinaname, if you are simply trolling, that is trying to disrupt the threads, you only supply opinion. If you are serious about a discussion, and challenging the prevailing consensus, you must do so with evidence. Evidence which folks with your attitude never seem to supply, almost like they are nothing but trolls to be banhammered into silence.
Muslima, has no one ever told you it’s gauche to yak about your salary? There are people here, on Pharyngula (and everywhere) who are seriously struggling to make ends meet and people who are struggling to find employment. Your thoughtlessness is noted.
There…fixed.
hm this looks like some trolls were exiled to the dungeon, right?
pelamun, see #390 & #399.
I see. I wasn’t aware that PaulG and Whatsinaname were the same person, as in the dungeon they seem to be listed differently.
I DARE you to lie down and take it!
Or, men could just, yanno, not rape.
But that’s a silly idea, because… um…
Well, I’ll let you handle that one, mercurial. Give it a shot now: “The idea that men should stop raping women at frat parties is ridiculous because: _________”
(Please fill in the blank. Remember please to phrase your answer in a way that gives equal weight to the rights of men and women, given that it’s one of your stated concerns.)
This matches my experience. I attended general SF conventions for years, and I did notice how white they generally are, and that there’s a gender imbalance. When I went to FurCon for the first time a couple years ago, I was immediately struck by how much more it actually looked like the Bay Area. That immediately made me feel much more comfortable there. I like that it’s queerer and more diverse. It’s a local con, so it should look like the local demographics, right? BayCon never did, really. (I stopped going about six years ago, so my impression could be outdated.)
The furries get slagged on a lot, but the thing is, they know how to throw a hell of a party. Also, have you seen some of those costumes? Seriously amazing technical accomplishment there.
I used to slag on the furries, having known a few online, but I’ve since realized it’s not that many steps removed from petty homophobia.
Might have something to do with furrydom being at the intersection of almost every kink known.
I didn’t get time to read through all the replies but one stood out.
Thank you ‘Gregory Greenwood’, you have elaborated the views of several other users for me to the point where I can rationally digest your arguments and agree with most, if not all of them*.
*about the ad hominem thing, I would argue that the members who insulted me in their replies didn’t offer arguments, so you’re right that it is technically not ad hominem as they didn’t specifically say “Cameron is wrong because he is a douche”, but they were pretty close and regardless, insults don’t belong in arguments full stop.
BTW, Gervais used it in an illustrative way. I agree with you theoretically on the ‘cunt’ issue but not practically as it would require the social shunning of words like dick, cock, wanker, motherfucker, fag (as used for cigarettes), bugger (homophobic perhaps) etc. Like the racial insult n*gger, I’m sure the words can successfully be shunned socially over time but ‘banning’ all gender-associated insults may be painting with too broad of a brush, if you know what I mean. (Like all my previous arguments, I reserve this above argument until someone provides a more sensible one that makes me abandon my original view, perhaps my above argument seems anti-feminist in nature but it is just that I don’t currently have a reason to not argue this view point).
To some other members who replied to me,
Just because what I say may seem sexist, radical or ‘dark-ages-like’, it doesn’t mean that I have those views for bad reasons. Gregory’s post is a great example of what I had been asking for previously, someone to provide decent arguments for my opinions as I am not an avid follower of the feminist movement and am unsure of particular problems in the movement and ways feminists deal with those problems. Gregory rebutted my previous statements without the use of insults and did so in a calm, patient and rational manner. I can now see why it may be important for PZ to post such blogs like this one.
So again, thanks Gregory. Perhaps I should direct my future opinions on these boards about feminist issues to you as I’m sure you have some excellent arguments that may, further yet, require me to abandon previously held views of mine.
Without trying to be too much of an asshole to other members who replied to me with insults, take a leaf out of Gregory’s book on “Arguments for people who are not all that familiar with the feminist movement*”
*I realise some people may say “why don’t you go read about feminist arguments before posting your opinion ‘requesting’ for feminists to teach you their arguments”, I would reply with “because then I would have to do the same for every single topic I ever offer an opinion on and would never get any work done, we have professionals, leaders and experts for a reason”.
privilege.
There are good reasons to have those views?
What you’re saying is sexist, very non-radical (same crap men have been saying for ages), dark-ages like and perpetuates entrenched sexism.
Yes, you do. Try reading all the links provided, you might learn something. Like how fucking privileged you are and why you keep trying to foist your mansplaining on us.
Cameron:
Perhaps you should realise you’re commenting on a public forum.
(Doesn’t say much for your acumen or honesty that only one of several approaches passed your ego-censor, either)
—
Alas for you — your efforts at disingenuous fake patronising indignation are so transparent that you trying would make fuck-all difference.
(bah)
Yes, because Gregory is a man. Can’t be seen responding to those uppity wimmin, no, no. :eyeroll:
That’s not much of a reason. If you volunteer poorly thought out or uninformed opinions on issues this important to people commenting on it, you’re going to get lit up. And with good reason. You are, in effect, dismissing their experience and relevant knowledge. It’s like a cancer conspiracy nut coming onto a board filled with cancer survivors telling them what cancer ‘really is’ and why the were wrong to seek medical treatment. Besides being wrong, it’s insensitive, insulting and an all around obnoxious thing to do.
Hey Cameron:
Go fuck yourself. ;)
@ Anri, #722
“…Or, men could just, yanno, not rape.”
Well, of course. In a perfect world that would be the case. But a word to the wise here, gals, um… avoid frat parties at all costs.
“…Well, I’ll let you handle that one, mercurial. Give it a shot now: “The idea that men should stop raping women at frat parties is ridiculous because: _________”
(Please fill in the blank)
Yeah, nice straw dog. I never implied any such thing. In fact, I would ban all college fraternities period. Frat problems solved. Who needs these self-important fake greek intellectual pricks anyway? Sorry gals, if you want to get drunk and pass out, you’ll have to do it at a public bar where there are no rape rooms on the second floor.
Cameron @ 726;
My style may be different, but the substance was already there in all the other posts.
I must disagree. I do not think that the presence of insults alone makes any difference to ther quality of an argument. If the logic and evidence are there, then bolting on a few choice epithets does not invalidate the rest of the argument. You may not like that style, but Pharyngula has always been a place where content trumps tone.
I think it important to rememeber the specific social context of the word ‘c*nt’. The very fact that a slang term for female genitalia is used as an insult is problematic because of the the longstanding history of the devaluing of womanhood by society. It is doubly suggestive that it is rare for a woman to be called a ‘dick’ but common for a man to be called a ‘c*nt’. Why? because such an insult is deployed to impugn his masculinity be likening him to a woman – thus replicating the misogynist meme that femininity is inherently inferior to masculinity. In this regard, an insult like ‘c*nt’ has some attributes in common with racial epithets and homophobic slurs – all these classes of insult try to identify an aspect of a person that they cannot control as being something inhently shameful or inferior.
F*g is another case in poijnt. As you point out, in the UK it is usually employed as slang for a ciggarette, however, the fact that it has a very doifferent and toxic connotation in the US is reason enough for me to avoid the phrase, especially when commenting in a forum freq
This has been one of the more annoying parts of the last few months. ‘It’s not so bad where I’m from’ does nothing to diminish the history the phrase or words has elsewhere. And rushing full steam ahead ignoring that history and meaning (especially after being told just what stereotypes the word hinges on and the toll it takes on third parties) does not speak well of the user.
For example, fag. Knowing the incredible bigotry that gays experience throughout their lives (especially their younger years) how can you argue continuing to insult and berate them for being ‘fags’ is ok? I would think that’s a clear example of when an insult should be phased out and the users should be shunned for adding to a homphobic atmosphere.
Darn, hit submit by accident. Here’s my second attempt.
Cameron @ 726;
My style may be different, but the substance was already there in all the other posts.
I must disagree. I do not think that the presence of insults alone makes any difference to the quality of an argument. If the logic and evidence are there, then bolting on a few choice epithets does not invalidate the rest of the argument. You may not like that style, but Pharyngula has always been a place where content trumps tone.
I think it important to rememeber the specific social context of the word ‘c*nt’. The very fact that a slang term for female genitalia is used as an insult is problematic because of the the longstanding history of the devaluing of womanhood by society. It is doubly suggestive that it is rare for a woman to be called a ‘dick’ but common for a man to be called a ‘c*nt’. Why? Because such an insult is deployed to impugn his masculinity be likening him to a woman – thus replicating the misogynist meme that femininity is inherently inferior to masculinity. In this regard, an insult like ‘c*nt’ has some attributes in common with racial epithets and homophobic slurs – all these classes of insult try to identify an aspect of a person that they cannot control as being something inhently shameful or inferior.
F*g is another case in point. As you point out, in the UK it is usually employed as slang for a ciggarette or as an abbreviation of ‘f*ggot’, and old fashined term for a bundle of kindling. However, the fact that it has a very different and toxic connotation in the US is reason enough for me to avoid the phrase, especially when commenting in a forum frequented by American Pharyngulites.
Language matters. It most certainly will not be an easy task to modify the lexicon in order to prune away gendered insults, but so long as the language exists unchallenged, then the harmful and exclusitory attitudes associated with that language will endure.
This is the trap of privilege that other posters have discussed. There really are no good reasons to hold sexist opinions, but a person’s privilege can blind them to the fact that a given position is discriminatory at all, or can lead them to assume that a certain level of discrimination is ‘justified’. One has to be able to examine one’s own privilege with a critical eye to be able to avoid these traps, and even then total awareness of the myriad ways in which a person can be privileged (ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation and social class are only the tip of the iceberg) is all but impossible. We all have blind spots, and so when someone points out that your behaviour betrays unexamined privilege, it is always worthwhile to pay close attention to their argument since it is likely easier for them to see your privilege from the ‘outside’ then it is for you to perceive your own privilege from the ‘inside’, if you will forgive the crude analagy.
I am assuming that you are arguing in good faith, and that you are truly simply seeking an introduction to feminist thought. Such an assumption should, in ordinary circumstances, be simply a reasonable case of giving someone the benefit of the doubt, but here on Pharyngula we have learned the hard way that it is actually a calculated risk. A great many people who have no interest in understanding feminism, and simply want to rant against what they call ‘feminazis’, pop up on this blog on a regular basis. Many of them start out claiming that they just want to understand feminism before they show their true colours.
When the blog undergoes regular infestations of ‘MRAs’ (or ‘mens’ rights activists’ if you are unfamiliar with the term), who seek to dismiss the experiences of women and demonize feminists, then the well can get somewhat poisoned. When you first arrived, you seemed to have all the attributes of just such an MRA, and this provoked an understandable negative reaction.
You must bear in mind that many of these misogynists are given to truly offensive screeds. Mercurial’s statements on this thread about women who go to frat parties bringing rape upon their own heads is actually a mild example. We have encountered posters who have claimed that feminism is all a conspiracy to enslave men. One particularly infamous poster, MaxH, actually tried to claim that frat boys yelling ‘no means yes, yes means anal’ outside the accommodation blocks of female freshman students was no big deal, because they were just joking around, and any woman who wasn’t a paranoid shrew would understand that. The so called ‘elevatorgate’ event brought legions of misogynists out onto the blog, and their ongoing hate campaign against Watson has to be seen to be believed.
When you give the impression (however inadvertantly) of being just the latest in a long series of people who come here simply to have a go at any woman who thinks for herself, then a hostile reception is inevitable.
As pointed out by Caine, Fleur du Mal @ 730;
I am a man. I am not qualified to be any kind of authority on the life experiences of women. It is those experiences, from the people at the sharp end of gender discrimination in our society, that matter. They are the ones that you need to listen to. I try to empathise with the difficulties that woman face and do whatever little I can, but I will never have their grasp on the issues. I will never know what it means to be a woman in our culture. Limiting your discussion on feminist issues to a man is not only quixotic, it ironically replicates the very patterns of exclusion that lie at the heart of discrimination against women in a discussion about, of all things, feminism.
I would never hold myself up as any exemplar of feminist thought, and as for my style, it is just that; my style. There are any number of better qualified and more eloquent commentators on Pharyngula. The fact that I tend to avoid swearing in no way makes my arguments superior to (or even the equal of) theirs. If you ignore the language that offends you, I think you will find that the actual content of those posts is often well evidenced and highly insightful.
I understand your point about having a life to live outside Pharyngula, but I would suggest that you make the time to read up a little on feminist theory. The struggle for equality between the genders is one of the great battles for social justice of our times – perhaps the greates single conflict on this issue. It is the debate that will determine whether our society will view fully half of our species as human or not. As for myself, I am no professional feminist thinker. I am not even close to being an expert, still less a leader in the field. I am simply an interested party who has been convinced by the logical force of feminist argument and the moral imperative to treat women as actual human beings.
Gregory:
If that were the truth, Gregory, then why did Cameron ignore the 3 posts of links I provided his sorry arse? All of them easy intros to much of what he claims he wants to know about.
Perhaps you should go and find those posts of mine and repost them, seeing as Cameron Cupcake just can’t handle a woman saying jack shit unless it’s done in a specific manner, as befits a mere woman speaking to a man*. *spits*
*Yes, the fucking stupid idiot did this. Gosh, I wonder why the nasty, “stereotypical feminist” women aren’t that impressed with him.
Caine, Fleur du Mal @ 737;
Would those be the links you posted @ 489 and 490? Sorry, I missed those. That’ll teach me to only skim the thread. It does seem pretty damning – you clearly posted links and Cameron just seemed to ignore them. There really isn’t any good reason to do that.
Given the clear eveidence you have presented that Cameron is simply ignoring your posts and links, I have no wish to act as a facilitator for his seeming desire to avoid actually engaging with the voices of women in regard to feminist issues.
I also spotted the post by Cameron @ 431 that you alluded to;
That is utterly out of order. Insisting that a woman must be “nice” to a man in order that he should deign to listen to her is unnacceptable. The tone of the argument is irrelvent, and if the man in question has such a fragile ego that he cannot deal with a point forcibly put, then that is his failing, not the problem of feminists. And dismissing ‘stereotypical’ feminism as the problem (and seemingly thus implying that the arguments of any forthright and straight talking feminist are unworthy of proper consideration) just smack of trying to poison the well.
I said in my post @ 736 that;
It seems that my calculus was off here. I assumed good faith where it was actually absent. It was not my intent to gloss over Cameron’s behaviour, and I am sorry for any offence I have given with my thoughtlessness.
Gregory, yes those are the link posts.
I fully understand. I don’t want you thinking I was angry with you at all, I wasn’t and I’m not. You have absolutely nothing to apologize for at all.
I appreciate your attempts to get through to Cameron, especially as you seem to be the only person he’s willing to address. His responses to me and to other women in this thread have been condescending mansplaining, nothing more.
Caine, Fleur du Mal @ 739;
I just want to make sure that I do not give the impression that I am endorsing his mansplaining attitude toward women by my own engagement with his posts. I do not want to contribute in any way to an attitude that seeks to normalise the idea that it is OK to ignore women’s voices in regard to any issue, and especially in regard to feminism.
Gregory:
I understand. You know, I’m perfectly willing to be patient and educate people, when they show actual interest in listening and being educated (like Tomaz in the Social Media thread). It was obvious from Cameron’s first post that he had no such interest and considers the issue of sexism and privilege to be a very minor one.
It’s not the worst thing to engage him, Gregory, if you can manage to get through. Sometimes, it does take another man, someone who is considered to be an equal. I don’t think that would reflect badly on you in any way. That said, you don’t need to feel under any obligation, either.
Whichever way the spirit moves you. Heh. ;)
Case in point. *sigh*
Yeah, the furry community includes a LOT of queer folks. And, they tend to be sexually expressive, like every other community I’ve ever seen that has a strong gender-variant identity. So what? It’s not furries who popularized BDSM or schoolgirl outfits or classroom porn; it’s everyone else, who hide whatever kinks they may have. Yet furries are the most respectful about it. Furries are the ones saying that everyone’s consent and happiness is all that matters. Wasn’t that the whole point?
And, as I said, furry cons by policy (like comic and SF and anime cons) keep the adult artwork and content in its own spaces. That leaves the entire rest of the convention to be a diverse, inclusive, welcoming place.
Pteryxx: Since making that realization, it goes without saying that I’m done slagging on furries, forever.
Heck TLC, go ahead and slag ’em for something that actually counts. Hygiene, say. I just lose it whenever someone uses “those people like different/consensual sex!” as an insult. (It’s against my religion as a Sensualist. <_< )
Pteryxx: Yeah, I know. I should have wrote it as ‘Done slagging on furriness’ or something… you know what I mean. The kind I was seeing was, like I said, only a few baby steps away from just petty homophobia.
Ah! My misunderstanding, TLC. I meant julian’s quote as an example of your point that I’d just quoted. I wasn’t aiming at you…. just caught you in my vehemence aura. No worries.
On a side comment, Comiccon this year had some pretty good “Woman’s” panels.
Didn’t realize I was slagging furries. My bad. That wasn’t my intention by any means. Again, my bad.
I’ve been to a few furry conventions in my day and never had anything bad happen, and am also somewhat familiar with the frequent online drama in that community. While it’s very much true that they are a very tolerant community, and the “kink intersection” aspect of it tends to lead to less of the mainstream toxic attitudes towards sexuality, I feel like quite a few furries have problems with boundaries. The fact that it’s the nerd subculture that even the other nerd subcultures look down on tends to lead to this extreme defensiveness of all the weird “lifestyle” aspects.
This is why I felt that furries might perform poorly on the elevator test. When the elevator thing hit, there seemed to be some parallels to the furry community. Here we had a guy who was not particularly respectful of a woman’s boundaries, and immediately scores of people leapt to the “he’s just socially awkward” defense. While this is by no means exclusive to furry, the line between genuine Asperger’s syndrome and just plain assholery is quite often blurred with many of its denizens. So my fear is that propositioning someone in an elevator at a furry con would be seen as all too acceptable by furry fans eager to show how sexually liberated and yiffy they are.
Of course, I could be wrong. I haven’t really hung out with any since 2008.
(said the guy named after a folklore animal)
So – and please correct me if I’m misunderstanding you – you’re arguing that rape at frat parties is so intractible that the best solution is to just get rid of the frats?
How is that different from: “The idea that men should stop raping women at frat parties is ridiculous because: _________ ” ?
‘Cause frankly, I’m not seeing the difference.
Since I’m not getting it, let me ask step by step:
Do you believe asking men not to rape women at frat parties is ridiculous?
If so, why? (That’s the question above, BTW).
If not, why ban the frats?
“…Since I’m not getting it, let me ask step by step:
Do you believe asking men not to rape women at frat parties is ridiculous?”
Every man knows that rape is a crime. Just like every man knows that robbing a bank is a crime. Funny how men still rob banks. But yeah, knock yourself out. Ask the frat boys to behave like gentlemen at their drunkien parties. See how that works out for you once the alcohol kicks in.
You have a choice: You can live in your own little utopia and think the world will bend to your dreams. Or you can live in reality, and be mindful of your surroundings. The best way to avoid being a victim is to minimize your chances of being a victim. That includes looking both ways before crossing the street, and rejecting the lure of frat parties (especially if you intend to get passed-out drunk).
mercurial:
Crime against property the best spurious comparison you can invoke?
(Weak, you are)
I am an avid reader, but first time commenter.
This quote, however, compelled me to comment.
I am, what might be considered, a “manly man.”
I am 6’1″ tall, I am athletic, and I have (what I consider to be) one of the coolest jobs in the world. I operate heavy machinery and perform manual labor, in the drilling of foundation piers for buildings on the southern Gulf Coast and Rio Grande Valley. I play in the dirt and drill holes up to 95 ft deep. I feel that I am very good at my job, and, frankly I enjoy it immensely. It’s like being a kid with my Tonkas in my sand box… except I actually get to view stratification and sedimentation first hand, and actually understand what I’m seeing (plus, my toys are a lot bigger and much more awesome).
I grew up on a farm/ranch in Texas (yes, I am the stereotypical Texas “cowboy”). I played football in junior high and high-school, and I’ve always had a fondness for 4x4s and firearms. I also was the founding member of the chess team, was in the National Honor Society, was valedictorian of my high school graduating class, and have degrees from Texas Tech University in Computer Science and Electrical Engineering.
I tend to identify as a nerd/geek MUCH more than jock or cowboy/redneck… yet, I chose to pursue a career playing in the dirt over writing code or designing circuits (even though I still do both for fun), because I actually enjoy it more…
All of that said; my real passion is much more abstract, I love art. I love to draw and paint… but I wasn’t “manly” enough to withstand social pressure and pursue that passion.
I fully get what PZ is saying in this article. I know that I haven’t been subjected to a fraction of the societal pressure than most girls/women are subjected to, yet I wasn’t strong enough to stand against it. There is certainly a need for change, and it will require efforts from all of us, not just those who carry their genitalia internally.
Feminism isn’t just for women, and it didn’t end with Susan B. Anthony. There is still a lot of work to do.
my apologies for the above post. I assumed that the <q cite=””></q> tag allowed me to post a quote and attribute it to the original author… however <q cite=”PZ Myers”>I know I’d be stressed if I were constantly told I’m less of a man if I’m not playing football or working in a manly occupation that involved large wrenches and heavy industrial tools</q> didn’t produce the expected results, so the quote was not correctly attributed.
Incredible points. Sound arguments. Keep up the good work.