One of the peculiarities of our media right now is that, as everyone knows, the best political reporting is being done by a couple of comedy shows on cable. Another source that has been surprising me is Rolling Stone, which has unshackled a couple of wild men, Tim Dickinson and Matt Taibbi, to go after the corruption and insanity of American politics — one of those things we once upon a time expected our newspaper journalists to do. I guess the powers-that-be think it’s safe to let the drug-addled hippies and punks (and college professors) who read Rolling Stone to know about the failures of our government, but the bourgeoisie must not be perturbed.
If you care about the environment, you must read Dickinson’s Obama’s Sheriff. It’s nominally about our new Secretary of the Interior, Ken Salazar, but without saying much about him, it instead dives into the seedy, greedy world of the Interior Department of the past 8 years. Under Bush, we basically gave away our natural resources to anyone willing to chew them up and turn them into a pile of poisonous rubble and decaying trash.
Here’s a sample.
LESS WILDLIFE Julie MacDonald, a deputy assistant secretary at Interior, routinely overruled the department’s biologists, limiting the amount of “critical habitat” protected from drilling and other development. Federal judges overturned several of her decisions as “arbitrary and capricious,” and among federal scientists her name became synonymous with political interference. “It became a verb for us: getting MacDonalded,” said one staffer with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. When the inspector general reviewed 20 listings for endangered species in which MacDonald played a role, he found that she had “potentially jeopardized” 13 of them — a track record that “cast doubt on nearly every [endangered species] decision issued during her tenure.” Her decisions frequently benefited private interests, including her own: Her ruling that the Sacramento splittail fish is not an endangered species protected her family farm in California — an operation that clears as much as $1 million a year.
DECAYING PARKS By the time Bush left office, the National Park Service was stuck with a backlog of up to $14 billion in deferred maintenance. The marquee attraction at Dinosaur National Monument — a rock face of exposed Jurassic fossils — remains off-limits because the visitor center is unsafe, and inadequate storage facilities threaten to damage artifacts from the Battle of Little Big Horn. Because of the lack of funds, the government was unable to buy land surrounding Valley Forge and Zion National Park, putting the property at risk for “detrimental development.” Worst of all, the administration’s failure to create a grazing plan at Yellowstone Park to accommodate the plains buffalo — the animal that graces the Interior Department’s seal — contributed to the deaths of more than 1,100 bison last year. It was the greatest buffalo slaughter since the species was driven to near extinction by hunters in the late 1800s.
Keep in mind that this is only a taste — it goes on for page after depressing page. We’ve been robbed.
And what about Salazar? He gets a couple of paragraphs at the end, giving him props for being willing to go in and shake up the tradition of corruption…but also points out that he’s from the conservative rancher tradition, and is going to continue the policies of free give-aways of our resources. So, I guess we can expect less snow-bunny sex with mining representatives and less cocaine-snorting ministers, but the destruction will continue.
I’ll be the one
renegade italics
PZ and his atheist ilk have no morals. How can you have moral order without God? Murder would be acceptable. There would be radically different views on right and wrong. We need God.
So the interior department needed more god during Bush’s administration?
No, it needed less god.
Wow Jim. That’s really relevant to corruption at the Dept. of the interior.
PZ and his atheist ilk have no morals. How can you have moral order without God? Murder would be acceptable. There would be radically different views on right and wrong. We need God.
You might be more convincing if you weren’t in italics, dude. Nice try though.
Salazar? How many people with dictator names do you have in senior government jobs over there?
Ha the italics have infected the left side bar.
Jim Tanger, LOL. Nice to know that YOU would kill people if you didn’t have sky-cop watching. Not everyone is hideous shit like you, fortunately.
This punk quit reading Rolling Stone in 1977 when Jann (corporate fuckwad) Wenner slammed the Sex Pistols and called punk rock “noise”. Wenner is the one most responsible for the commodification of rocknroll and its current use as a soundtrack for the establishment.
stop the madness already! any chance that closing the tag in a post works? We shall see.
PZ never misses a chance to attack religious folks. Christians are going to re-claim America for Christ. Do you know of the former atheist who was taking his students on a trip to Europe when he fell ill? He had an experience that changed his views on God. Even his own doctors said that he should have been dead. The spiritual guides referenced the worldwide economic crisis today, and this was in 1984.
Ever truly read your bible? How can one have morals with that god? Even if he is imaginary.
Atheists actually practice the golden rule. This is compared to xians, who can’t seem to grasp the concept.
much like the nonexistent gods (all of them), closing the italics tag in a post is impotent
what’s with all the italics? Is this some sort of ephasistic revolution?
This is despicable. As you said, not as bad as before, but still…
Where does this come from? Most of my conservative friends and family are also conservationists, and the vast majority of liberals I know are environmentalists. Is that just because I’m from the upper Midwest where everyone lives near and enjoys the natural biomes? You know, the people who will tolerate mosquitoes, ticks and all manner of icky biota, as it is a part of the forests, lakes and prairies they treasure.
Oh, Tanger, wrong thread to be trolling. You’re a bit out of place here, since that is not what we’re talking about.
Another great Rolling Stone article
http://www.truthout.org/032309M
PZ and his atheist ilk have no morals. How can you have moral order without God?
I love it when theists try to make people feel ashamed for having morals. That kinda says it all, don’t it?
Anyway, if there is a god who gave people morals, then atheists have morals. Nice try (again.)
Not just inept moral philosophy, but an admission of a treasonous conspiracy, an argument from an unreferenced anecdote and wild claims of prophesy. New chew-toy!
On the random creationist: Obvious troll is obvious.
On the post: Julie MacDonald probably kicks puppies.
It’s par for the course thought, in’nit? Economy, foreign relations, environment, education… What haven’t we managed to fart up in the past eight years?
Tell me, how many charitable atheist organizations have you seen? We are a nation founded on Judeo-Christian traditions.
The dumb is strong with this one.
Since I don’t have time for a substantive comment on this great post (or any) right now, I’ll just say that Zion National Park is breathtakingly beautiful.
All praise PZ for closing the tag. He is all powerful.
Yawn, not this old lie. We put that to bed last night. What a bbbooorrriiinnnggg ignorant troll.
I second that. I used to spend a a few months in a number of spring and falls climbing there.
I love that place.
PZ is an immoral, soulless cretin. When he dies and is thrown before the Throne of Christ, screaming as his life flashes before him, he will weep for Jesus and shout, “JESUS IS LORD! JESUS IS LORD!”
Jim, when this country was founded there did not exist anything called “Judeo-Christian tradition!
But please, do try again.
Which ones, specifically? The lying? The hypocrisy with respect to life being sacred? The hypocrisy with respect to judging others? Which traditions?
Judeo–Christian (sometimes written as Judaeo–Christian) is a term used broadly to describe a body of concepts and values thought to be held in common by Judaism and Christianity. This tradition is considered, along with classical Greco-Roman civilization, a fundamental basis for Western legal codes and morality.
There truly is nothing like a dose of crazy fundy with my cereal. I think I need an antacid now.
A friend of mine once coined the term ‘fishing for men with dynamite’ to describe trollish ‘missionaries’. When you fish with dynamite, you might actually have some dead fish end up in your boat, but you also drive away or kill every other fish in the area, and made it clear that it’s not about catching fish as much as waving your metaphorical dick around to show that it’s the biggest among all your friends’. My friend originally used it for holier-than-thou ‘witnesses’ and street preachers, but it works wonderfully on the internet.
It always seems to come in handy for situations like this. A lot of these would-be missionaries come across as either completely inept at talking to people outside their group, or more interested in yelling at people to look cool to their friends than actually arguing their way of thinking. (Or it could be both, I suppose.)
And… somehow I’m not surprised that Bush left a mess in the Interior Department.
Another godbot troll with his imaginary god and fictional bible to thump. What a bore. Do us a favor and show some actual physical evidence for your delusionary deity.
Booooring. Please can we get some more creative creationists?
Disclaimer: I am not American.
Maybe, unlike theists, atheists don’t feel the need to only donate to charities run by people who share their imaginary friends. There may not be that many specifically atheist charities, but there are plenty of secular ones. As for a nation founded on Judeo-Christian traditions – the US was also based in slavery. Traditional ideas do not necessarily equate to good ones.
Theodore Roosevelt would fuck them up.
A nation based on Judeo-Christian values? Oh, you mean things like the Salem Witch Trials. (“But they were all witches! Really!”)
Actually, my delusional friend, most of the nation’s important founders were mild deists, at best. Thomas Jefferson, one of the most influential of our founders, edited his own version of the New Testament, removing all references to Jesus’ godhood, and generally toning down the spiritual. What was left was some nice pablum concerning the way we should treat each other: fairly, nicely, and with open minds.
Also, several of the founders smoked a little weed, and many kept one or more mistresses. Perhaps we really *should* emulate the examples of the great founders, like Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin.
Try secular instead of atheist. Atheism isn’t an organized group like a church. It’s merely a lack of belief in the supernatural or gods in particular.
Barry does not speak for actual history. Here’s a bet I’m gonna make: Pascal’s Wager. Live your life believing in God. If you’re right about him not existing, what’s there to lose? If you’re wrong…well, I pray for you.
The world needs a God.
This is disturbing. When I was growing up, we took extended camping vacations every year, all over Canada and the US. We visited a lot of US National Parks, all the way from Maine to Arizona, Florida to Washington state (including the aforementioned Zion). Those places are your country’s crown jewels, and neglecting them or selling them out should be considered treason.
How can people talk about respecting “god’s creation” and let this shit happen.
Tear down a church, build a reserve! Shoo, troll! Out! Pestis abi! And don’t forget to fuck off!
. Live your life believing in God. If you’re right about him not existing, what’s there to lose?>/em>Baal is gonna fuck you up for that. I mean he doesn’t mind us not believing in him but you are actively supporting his enemy Yahweh. If you’re wrong he’s gonna fuck you up bad.
Jim, I’m with you on the incorporation of Greco-Roman ideas into the foundation of America. Simple things like power vested in the population and senators.
But, please Jim! Worship of Invisible Supernatural Spooks? Fear of ISSs? Evocation of them? Casting out of then? Supplication towards them? Sacrifice to them? Where is all of this encoded in our law?
Try again.
Jim, if heaven is full of people like you who just ejaculate to Jesus day in and day out, I’d much rather be in hell to at least hang out with people who were willing to think.
Only for those who need to cling to superstition.
If you feel the need to have someone to be your master, feel free. Just don’t impose your ridiculousness on the rest of us.
I fail HTML forever. Let’s try again
Baal is gonna fuck you up for that. I mean he doesn’t mind us not believing in him but you are actively supporting his enemy Yahweh. If you’re wrong he’s gonna fuck you up bad.
@Jim Pascal’s wager, huh? You really think any god is going to be impressed by that kind of cynical sucking-up? Oh, you do. That seems to be the basis of what you call “morality”.
I fear for your children, if any of you have any. I know that I will not be exposing my young children to heathens and atheists. They will grow up learning the true Biblical history of America. I have already enrolled them in Youth for Christ courses.
Pascal’s wager is a heaping pile of steaming shit, but this is certainly nothing new.
Will you pray for me?
Xians are no more moral than anyone else. Fundies are far worse than everyone else. Empirically, belief in god(s) is at best, irrelevant, and at worse detrimental.
Believing in god didn’t stop the 17 suicide bombers who brought down the World Trade Center and killed 3,000 people. Or the Bush maladministration which left hundreds of thousands of bodies in a pointless war in Iraq. OT, at least, Bushco was the most god soaked and also the most corrupt administration we’ve had in decades.
Xian morality is a myth like the flat earth, Bigfoot, or creationism.
You guys don’t understand. God loves you; he just doesn’t love your sins. He has given us free will, which is why bad things do happen because we must learn to operate, but he is there. God has always existed.
This Tanger guy is a Poe, right? Nobody could have so little cerebrum and have mastered the rudiments of language, right?
Will Ferrell channeling James “I advocate child abuse for the Lord” Dobson, perhaps?
I hope to FIR (former imaginary friend) it’s a Poe!
Tell me, how many charitable atheist organizations have you seen?
There’s this organization called “The United Nations.” When it’s not too busy trying to become the One World Government that shall bring about the end of the world as prophesied by a 15 year-old mentally damaged Scottish girl in the 1800s, it breaks down in to dozens of small relief organizations that travel all over the world bringing food and supplies and education to impoverished and dislocated people. You might have heard of UNICEF, but that’s just the tip of the iceberg.
I mean, admittedly the UN might not be an “atheist” organization. But they are a totally corrupt, evil one in the fevered wet dreams of the fundamentalist Christian world…
He didn’t seriously bring up Pascal’s Wager, did he?
……
What can anyone say that hasn’t been said a fucktillion times before? “That has nothing to do with probability”? “What if the Muslims/Zoroastionists/etc. are right”?
Indeed. And obvious troll is obvious…
And ain’t it funny how when you start talking about what miserable, unprincipled, useless, destructive sacks of shit were the Bush administration in toto, some godbotting moron pops up to start spouting the same old vapid noise about his magical sky fairy being the guy you need to make the rules…
Sweet, really. I mean, is somethin’ botherin’ you about this, godbot? Like maybe the evidence staring you square in the face that giving power to dumbfucks whose only actual qualification is they claim to have been touched by your magical sky man’s Be Good Now sanctifying ray is a really, really effective way to fuck shit up beyond all recognition?
Yeah, I’m all broke up about that, too. Ya poor tool. I mean, reality’s just a total bitch for your kind, isn’t it, loser.
A few hints to help you through this, not that you deserve ’em: yer god’s not there. That’s all a crock, and always was. Grow up. Human beings make their own laws, always have, always will, ‘cos they’re the only ones actually around to do it, even though once upon a time they liked to pretend they had some magical, invisible man behind ’em giving those laws divine saction.
And it’s a messy business, and an urgent business, and we happen to need adults to do it. Not perennially, deliberately juvenilne idiots like you, Dubya, and the rest of the brylcreemed choir of the eternally benighted.
So again I say: grow up. In case you haven’t heard, there’s a real world out here, and idiots like you revelling in your self-indulgent, wilful ignorance are a very real danger to it. As is pretty much obvious to everyone alive but you, now.
The I feel sorry for them. Why not wait until they can think for themselves before ramming dogma down their throats?
If you stop to think about it, “Judeo-Christian” is the religious equivalent of “Capitalist-Marxist”. It’s a pretty stupid term, all things considered.
Ya, wait until they learn to think for themselves. How are you going to handle it when they are exposed to the real world and come back as atheists? Are you going to scream at them until they commit suicide? I’ve heard enough of those stories to make anyone sick, but go ahead ruin your kids life like so many before you.
Jim Tanger is a mentally ill, stupid troll. When he dies, the few people who know him will celebrate with a party, no one else will care, and the world will be a better place.
Wackos like this gave the religion its bad name. Go away Jim, being crazy, obnoxious, and stupid is your way of going through life but it bores the hell out of normal people.
Jim Tanger,
Pascal’s Wager is the best you can do? Really?
It’s a poor bet. Which god should I believe in? YHWH? Jehovah? Shiva? Allah? FSM? The god of quantum woo? WHICH IS THE RIGHT GOD? If you get it wrong, you are going to hell.
What have I got to lose believing in god? It isn’t so much what I have to lose, it’s what I gain by *not* believing in god. First, I gain a clarity of understanding. The world just makes more *sense* without looking through the circus mirror distortions of god. It’s easier to understand where we came from, and even gain an inkling of where we are, perhaps, going.
Secondly, I gain freedom from irrational fear and shame. I still have fear and shame, but now I can be rational about them. I feel shame when I do not live up to my expectations of myself (which are fairly stringent expectations). I feel fear when there are actual dangers, and *not* the danger of going to hell.
Thirdly, I gain some self-respect by knowing I’ve not allowed myself to be blackmailed by some probably-nonexistent all-powerful petulant child who *demands* worship, “or you shall be punished.” Yeah. I wouldn’t respect a person who demanded respect like that; why should I respect a deity for behaving like that?
Finally, I get my time back. Instead of trying to pay homage to something that may or may not exist (and most likely does not), I get to do good things for society, or fix my backyard fence, or hang out with my wife, or play with my dogs. (No, that’s not a euphemism. Would you guys stop taking everything *dirty*?)
So, Pascal’s Wager is a bust, my friend with an invisible friend. You’ll need a much more persuasive argument than *that*.
You guys must have very depressing, abusive lives without God. So we just die and get buried and nobody remembers us?
God has never been needed except as an excuse to justify bad behavior. And the bible? That is a work of fiction with a small amount of history used to maintain the Jewish community during its exile. Or, don’t you understand the historical way the bible was put together.
If you permit Jim to get this thread off topic, it’s your fault as much as his. He’s just a troll doing what trolls do. The rest of you should know better.
So, I guess we can expect less snow-bunny sex with mining representatives and less cocaine-snorting ministers, but the destruction will continue.
Why so pessimistic PZ? I know lots of environmentalist who grew up in rural America. Yes, Salazar comes from a rancher tradition, but that doesn’t automatically make him a anti-environment cretin, like his predecessor. Lots of Ranchers are joining the Green movement. Some are even involved carbon-capture(from cow dung) and land renewal projects.
Andrew said:
I’m wondering if he is an actual person at all rather than some kind of spambot spouting off snippets of fundie soundbite at random. Nothing he says is connected to anything he has previously said, anything anyone else has said or the topic at hand for that matter, he’s just randomly spewing unoriginal claptrap to no discernable purpose, very strange.
We understand, seriously. We’ve had it all explained to us much better than you are doing. Many of us have even read pretty deeply into the history and beliefs of Christianity. Believe me, we understand it. We just see that it’s false.
We see that, in fact, the murderous tyrant god of the Bible isn’t also simultaneously the subtle and distant “first cause” god of the Greek philosophers while also being a identical to the abstract concept of “love” as well as a Jewish chippy. We’ve seen the arguments for it, and they are bollocks.
We understand and yet we reject it because it is silly.
Xian morality is a myth like the flat earth, Bigfoot, or creationism.
Hey, Bigfoot might be real. Hell, we might just find their dead bodies if we keep allowing this destruction of their alleged habitat.
I find that post offensive to Bigfoot trackers.
“How can you have moral order without God?”
We all manage.
“Barry does not speak for actual history.”
Barry who? What thread are you on?
Jim, please discuss the Department of the Interior instead of going down your little checklist of tired godbot cliches.
We’re not deluding ourselves that we’ve got any longer than this 80-odd years before we die and get buried. So maybe we do something useful with it. And maybe we actually do get remembered.
As in the past with all great nations the begining of the end started with the decline in the moral structure of the nation, when the morals go the nation is not far behind. The truth, when a people become so rotten with the lost of morals they are not able to see past there deviant believes. Everything that is civilized vanishes, people become less, anything goes because the rules of civility are gone. People need rules to make things right because in truth we all fall short of the glory of GOD, and the LORD GOD JESUS is the supreme rule because again the ten commandments are all that is needed to guide a people, the rest of GODS laws are between GOD and the person and his soul.
Just so everyone knows, this is the level of intellect we are dealing with. Comment from Jim in a previous thread
I’m having a hard time believing that Jim Tanger is sincere in his commentary as he has produced a textbook streak of canards.
Either that, or he’s just woefully ignorant.
Lilly de Lure @63 is right. Jim fails the Turing test.
Pascal’s Wager? Seriously?
*yawn*
Don’t you guys EVER have anything new? It’s like you’re not even trying anymore.
But regardless, Odin is going to fuck your shit up when you die if you keep praying to this Christian god.
I’m not all that familiar with regular commenters so I don’t know if he’s popped up here before, but I suppose it’s too much to hope that Jim is a Poe? In any case I still don’t see what his comments have to do with the Department of the Interior or the National Park Service.
I still can’t believe that we’d let things in the parks get bad enough that artifacts are threatened. That’s a damn shame. I would like to see what the Department’s budget was, as there was probably excessive waste, mis-allocations, and some serious pet projects in that time.
On topic.
The neglect of our natural heritage is a deep concern to me. I grew up with a backyard of several million acres of national forest, wilderness areas and national parks in Wyoming. Almost daily the old man and I would ride out into it to accomplish our task of putting beef on people’s plates.
Since we insist on fencing off, plowing, paving and throwing up cheap housing on the rapidly diminishing remnant of wild America, what little is left is of increasing value. I see a great opportunity for volunteerism here. In my experience caring for and preserving what little is left is a task that brings deep satisfaction and pride.
Remember, for nearly all of our existence humans have been sustained by wild, untamed nature.
Harry Nilson said it well:
“The most beautiful world in the world
And though there are times when I doubt you
I just couldn’t stay here without you.
I love you for your snow
Your deserts down below
I love the way you wear your trees.
So when you get older
And over your shoulder
You look back to see if it’s real,
Tell her she’s beautiful
Roam the world over
And give her a kiss
And a feel.”
fundie xians have and will attempt to destroy the USA which they hate and head on back to the Dark Ages. That is unless their heartfelt desire for god to destroy the earth and kill all 6.7 billion people comes true.
That is why the number of xians is going down in this country and why Bush is a disgraced ex leader and Obama is president. Odd fact. The majority of people who voted for Obama were…xians. Jim only speaks for himself and the voices in his head, not all xians.
Christians are going to re-claim America for Christ. The usual, a threat. It won’t take crazy Jim long to decend into his main point, and threaten to kill a few or a few tens of millions of people. Violence and murder are always just below the surface of fundies. Hate is always on the surface.
Uh, looking at these comments all I see is YHBT YHF HAND.
As to the article, I hope they don’t spare the stick at the DoJ. If they do then future (and perhaps the current) administration will continue to treat looting as a spoil of winning campaigns.
Jim: You know what? I’ll take amorality over any “morality” derived non-arbitrarily from the bible any day. Because that’s the sort of morality that leads to punishing people (OK, so it was just throwing them out of the treehouse) for saving the life a nine-year old girl. That’s the sort of morality that really is pick-and-choose. Scripture can justify anything.
I’d love to go on feeding the troll who insists that my life must be thoroughly depressing, but I have to walk to work on a cool, clear day wearing my badass longcoat, to the job which pays me a living wage to do something I enjoy in the company of intelligent and pleasant people, while still leaving me the evenings to have drinks with friends and reconnect with old comrades who are visiting town this week, so I just don’t have time to deal with this schlub and his arguments-from-adverse-consequences.
“And I commend enjoyment, for man has nothing better under the sun than to eat, to drink and to be merry.”
— Ecclesiastes 8:15
You guys don’t understand. God loves you…
Damned straight He loves me. It’s all you brown-nosing suck-up fundies He can’t stand.
In fact, when He and I were having phone sex the other night (technically, prayer-sex, but it’s the same thing) (btw: He’s *really* into male-on-male S&M), He said, “Y’know, nigel, there’s nothing makes Me deflate faster than some fundie that wants to suck My Most Holy Member. Yes, they all want Me to sodomize them, but I mean, they’re like fuckin’ psycho hose beast ex-girlfriends! How can one get a Most Holy Chubbie for people with no fuckin’ self-respect?”
True story. I swear to God.
Back to the topic:
Get a rope.
I have a serious question for all of you:
Humanity is experimenting with dangerous technology. We are all on the brink of regional war. Don’t we need God to sort this all out? We all fall short of God’s glory. Don’t we need a God to ensure that differing senses of right and wrong don’t result in catastrophe?
@mwb re the trolling. Yeah, WHBT, but the chance to yell at idiots, and see the well written snark of others who are better at yelling at idiots than I, are part of why I come here. Our collective trollabilty is a feature, not a bug.
Jim you must have very depressing, abusive lives because God tells you are worthless so your only hope is to suck God’s toes.
Um for one, we haven’t lost any morals, if anything we gained them because we don’t thump a book that tells us we should hate anyone who doesn’t look or think like us ‘and women’. For two if you would bother to really look at the secular nations in the world they are doing a hell of a lot better than here. Oh but if you would like to take a look at your so called “moral god fearing countries” All you have to do is look at those 3rd world nations that rape, mutilate and kill women and anyone who doesn’t look or think like them.
The recent attempts at delisting the Gray Wolf is one of the most disheartening things that have happened. Salazaar is all for this.
If the states can manage the wolves effectively then I’m fine with it but the past shows this probably isn’t the case as the ranchers power in the area is strong.
Nope, science has done wonders without one for a couple of centuries. Delusions like god have no place in reality.
Another terrifying exposé on how we’ve been lied to by the obscenely wealthy and powerful, and how the Bush administration was complicit: http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/denialmachine/video.html
PZ, if you see this comment it’d be great for you to give this a bit of headline lurve.
I really hope that we don’t lose more Park lands. We have national natural treasures, and they are taken from us with no thought. Idjits.
As for trolltastical Jim, I think the “Judeo-Christian” values he means is “incest is OK”.
Now, me @#82 not withstanding, we probably shouldn’t respond to Jim Tanger since he doesn’t actually show any signs of being sentient. It’s like arguing with Raivo Pommer.
Tanger, how dare you mock the Judeo-Thorian tradition that our Viking-Semitic nation was founded on?
You’re getting a lightning bolt straight up the tuchis!!!
Wait…this post says nothing about religion or god. It’s about corruption and bad politics and lazy media and the destruction of the environment.
Is there something in that that makes Jim think I must be rebuking his faith again?
Crudely Wrott, that’s a great Harry Nilson song. Here’s some of another Harry Nilson song, for spambot Tanger, busily flunking the Turing Test:
You’re breakin’ my heart
You’re tearin’ it apart
So fuck you!
Jim – I am an infrequent commenter here – but I would ask you one simple question: Where is your evidence? Obviously there are no more atheists breaking civil laws than Christians, and if a mostly non-theistic country like Sweden has far fewer per capita murders than the U.S. – I just don’t get where you are coming from.
And do you say we need God to be moral or we need the bible? Buddhists seem very moral without a god… Check you facts and your grammar Jim. A little scrutiny about what you state and you can see it has nothing to back it up. Use the brain that “God” gave you and think a little.
Well their life is over with before it even started. They will either end up as lost, brainwashed idiot robots like you or end up knowing dad is a wacko and avoiding him. If you really had any morals, you wouldn’t have reproduced and you wouldn’t be inflicting your insanity on little kids.
Well, if you actually read the Old Testament, something fundies (or at least the only-mildly-scary ones) don’t seem to have done, god seems pretty keen on catastrophes. Ditto most omnipotent fictional characters.
PZ Meyers –
This is one thread out of the dozens where you attack God.
So why isn’t it showing up, Jim boy? Absentee parental gods are the primary cause of our moral slide.
Ken, Howard Stern plays that song into and out of breaks all the time.
Jim: No. We need to sort it our ourselves.
It’s time to grow up, son. Time to grow up.
(Pascal’s Wager? LOL. Really. How lame.)
Yeah but Bush was the closest thing they had to taking down the country back to a 3rd world nation, and he failed. So how dare you criticize any of his positions or decisions! THEY WRE DONE FOR GOD GAWD-DAMNIT!
I got it. That the yeast are in control and nothing
will be done* until waste exceeds population, sugar,
and flour.
Nature ALWAYS limits failed experiments.
*-a drastic change in temps will be the thing that
stops the yeast growth.
Actually, Jim, you were the first to mention God on this post.
Where?
and who is this Meyers fellow?
Crudely Wrott@74:
Same here. I grew up in Tongass National Forest in Southeast Alaska. Logging country. My dad made a living by blowing up the land (technically, the huge rocks under the soil). I have met very few people with more respect for nature than my dad.
Coming from a rural conservative background does not necessarily make Ken Salazar Slytherin (bet he’s never heard that before) a bad man for the job. Take a look at Kris Kristofferson (who is also in the new Rolling Stone). He grew up military — his dad was a Major General. He himself was military. Yet he is one of the most outspoken liberals today.
Let’s let this guy make a track record for himself first. With luck, his actions will reflect what I hope President Obama really stands for. If Salazar doesn’t do right by conversationalists, well, he should be following official policy in the first place. If so, the blame will be as much with Obama as with Salazar.
lolwhut?
I can’t believe you guys let some stupid–and probably insincere, in my opinion–troll derail this thread for so long.
On topic, I think Matt Taibbi’s work is some of the most exciting reporting being done today.
While a fan of the Daily Show, I must say that what they do is hardly reporting. It may be entertaining and spot-on, but let’s recognize that they do very little actual reporting.
Indeed.
America. A land where if you lie to congress about a blowjob, they hold a special session to consider your impeachment. But if you systematically lie you fat asses off to congress, your citizenry, and the entire world for months on end, deliberately cherry picking intelligence to create a rationale for a ruinously destructive war which winds up costing hundreds of thousands of lives and trillions of dollars, you get re-elected. And impeachment is, apparently, politically not feasible…
On the whole, I think the world would rest easier if America locked up Bush, Cheney, and at least a few dozen of their closest personal collaborators and threw away the fucking key. It would just be reassuring as to said nation’s collective sanity. Tho’ after that whole re-election thing, I’m not sure even that would really gonna leave anyone resting that easy.
PZ Meyers –
This is one thread out of the dozens where you attack God.
Oh crap, is your God so pathetic that it requires mortal protection from the big mean PZ Meyer?
Oopsy. With statements like that, you may just disturb the rest of The Great one Who Slumbers Beneath. Good luck with that.
George Bush liberated Iraq. Do you think they could have expressed their freedoms under Saddam? Nope. They can do a lot more now.
PZ, maybe the dumb troll thinks that pollution and destruction of the land, biodiversity, potential cures for human diseases from different species, poisoned water supplies from strip-mining, selling out government leases for the biggest bribes…
Can be solved by hiding under his prayer rug and chanting “I believe, I believe, I believe!”
Naw, it is just a few fundie xians with guns, bombs, and internet connections. Like Jim The police, judges, and US army can handle a few kooks with brains the size of walnuts.
Last post. Jim can stay crazy far longer than anyone sane can stay interested in his routine god babble. Derailing a thread on a serious topic is malignant. The USA is a spectacular landscape and we the people, own those national parks and forests. Screwing them up by corrupt christofascists (more nonexistent xian morality) for the benefit of a few rich people was a crime.
Poor Jim has not shown any evidence his imaginary god exists. That says a lot about his mental state. It is not tied into reality, but the delusions he generates with the mental masturbation called god and religion. Jim, do you work in private, and wash your hands afterwards.
@ Ken Cope, #91-
Thanks for the memory! What a hoot!
*sez to self, I shoulda thought of that song instead*
Have a fine day, Ken.
Howard Stern plays that song
I did not know that, Rev BDC; I’m more of a Stephanie Miller fan for the AM. That show has a token atheist in producer Chris, and an excessively talented voice monkey, along with the charming hostess.
*looks into crystal ball*
s dsmvwlmnt n yr ftr, Jm Tngr!
I love my killfile.
now if only it would ignore responses to the troll!
Here a cake, trollie :
What war you are talking about ? Last I checked neither Mexico nor Canada had any quarrel wit US.
What god you speak about ? Christian, Muslim, one of hindu gods ? Didn’t you notice they all gave different commandments ?
co:
From Beneath You It Devours?
Jim Tanger, i have a question for you about biblical morality.
If your children dissagree with your and are disrespectful..
Do you stone them in the bedroom, the livingroom or do you take them outside to the yard so others can watch your example?
Matt Taibi’s been turning out good work for a long time. Something which this crowd would probably appreciate: he was responsible for the New York Press cover featuring “The 52 Funniest Things About the Upcoming Death of the Pope.” Back when NYP was good.
“Her decisions frequently benefited private interests, including her own: Her ruling that the Sacramento splittail fish is not an endangered species protected her family farm in California — an operation that clears as much as $1 million a year.”
I worked briefly for the Federal Government (I liked it, I left for personal reasons.) They made it CRYSTAL CLEAR that not only were we not allowed to have any conflicts of interest with the work we did, we were not allowed to have THE APPEARANCE of conflict of interest. This was a termination offense.
Obviously, the Bushies, in addtion to wiping their asses on the US constitution, they were also wiping their asses on the standards for behavior for federal officials. but certainly this is not a surprise. For an administration that lied about WMD in Iraq, tried to promulgate the aptly-named “Bush Doctrine,” called torture as defined in the US military field manuals “not torture,” and made an obscene power grab for the executive branch, this is small potatoes.
I am thankful for a new administration.
From Beneath You It Devours?
pedant: “It eats you, starting with your bottom?”
@ Comstock
Sorry he was a distraction for the rage that would have welled up otherwise. I grew up on my dad’s farm and I often tell people “I pretty much grew up in the woods”. I would go out hunting and trapping with him and even though that sounds cruel to most it gives a real perspective to how people are a part of the world and how important wildlife is. This was just another chip that chimp made to everything I hold sacred Worthy of respect or dedication(this dictionary terminology for those of you, JIM, who are too simple minded to understand: ) all for his bible thumping, mentally insane constituents. A distraction was needed.
Oh Cthulhu, this guy is so stupid and way too easy. The last time god was (supposedly) mildly annoyed with humans, he drowned all but 8 people in a deluge that covered the earth miles deep with water.
Really, an omnipotent creator of a 13.7 billion light year wide universe should be able to take care of himself. Although Jim’s god seems to have shrunk recently to the point where some guy pushing a shopping cart around the park is his defender.
At this rate of shrinkage, Jim’s god is going to be fighting for his life soon against a ravenous cockroach.
Here’s what one of the founders of the Center for Biological Diversity said about Salazar when he was being considered.
And here is their press release on Salazar.
snip
JT is clearly a representative of the logging and mining industry, trying to derail any reasonable discussion of the issue at hand.
JBlilie,
I am a career fed, and we have very strict rules, as you mentioned, about even the APPEARANCE of a conflict of interest. Strangely, the rules don’t seem to apply to elected officials and appointees.
Somehow, I am assumed to be corruptible for gift values over $50/year (what a low threshold – $25 per occurence – a nice lunch?), while our Dear Leaders are immune to temptations, even from overseas golfing trips, professional sporting events, artistic performances, visits to exotic locales (especially those with skin trade)…
SquidBrandon:
Well, now I’ve gone and uttered a phrase of apparent power, without ever intending to. I consulted da Google and found out I might have earned the attention of a sect of watchers. This is how people “spontaneously” combust, isn’t it?
me or Bush?
I’m confused?
Not sure what lands around Zion N.P. are referenced in the post, but there are ten Wilderness Study Areas (WSA) around the Park. These are managed by the BLM to protect wilderness values, so at least some of the nearby land is protected.
Zion NP: 147,000 acres (120,620 acres recommended as wilderness)
Red Butte WSA: 804 acres
Spring Creek Canyon WSA: 4,433 acres
The Watchman WSA: 600 acres
Taylor Creek Canyon WSA: 35 acres
Goose Creek Canyon WSA: 89 acres
Beartrap Canyon WSA: 40 acres
La Verkin Creek Canyon WSA: 567 acres
Deep Creek WSA: 3,320 acres
North Fork Virgin River WSA: 1,040 acres
Orderville Canyon WSA: 1,750 acres
ELEVATION RANGE: 4,270 to 9,000 feet
ECOREGION: Colorado Plateau
MILES OF TRAIL: About 85
ADMINISTRATION: NPS, Zion National Park; BLM, Dixie Resource Area
MAPS: Trails Illustrated: Map #214. USGS 1:100,000: St. George, Kanab
If anyone wants some suggestions for visiting the BLM-managed sections, let me know. Zion N.P. receives millions of visitors per year (3-4 million), but the nearby visitor counts may be in the hundreds or thousands. Lots of opportunities for solitude in terrain similar to Zion.
**** Can we all please make an informal pact to completely IGNORE the Jimbo-Troll? ****
He’s just not interesting or original enough to waste any time on. And he certainly will not repsond to reason.
Thanks very much everyone.
I can’t let this example of xian moral illiteracy go by. You take your disobedient children out to the city gates and stone them there in public. It is right there in deuteronomy 20 or so. Although, most biblical scholars think it is better to sell them as sex slaves as it says in Exodus. Less blood to clean up and you get a few bucks besides.
Ken Cope:
To think that I had almost forgotten about that particular translation. I’m glad no one else was in the office at the moment to hear me cackle. :D
Matt Taibbi is a true (atheist) national treasure.
Lynna @131:
“Red Butte WSA: 804 acres
Spring Creek Canyon WSA: 4,433 acres
The Watchman WSA: 600 acres
Taylor Creek Canyon WSA: 35 acres
Goose Creek Canyon WSA: 89 acres
Beartrap Canyon WSA: 40 acres
La Verkin Creek Canyon WSA: 567 acres
Deep Creek WSA: 3,320 acres
North Fork Virgin River WSA: 1,040 acres
Orderville Canyon WSA: 1,750 acres”
I have hope! With the current congress and president, these will likely go from study areas to full status. (After they deal with the large number of messes left behind by the Bushies.)
I’ve hiked all over Zion and other areas of S Utah. The boundaries of ZNP, Arches NP, Canyonlands NP, etc. are far too restricted (if you care about the values for which these areas were preserved.) In particular, around Zion, they need full status. I would imagine that the ground “troops” of the NPS have been working hard for preservation of wilderness values in the WSAs.
Many other areas such as Cedar Mesa, Mule Creek Canyon, etc., etc. should be protected.
I don’t know enough about Salazar to comment on him as an individual suited (or not) for the job, but I will make a comment about ranchers. They’re not all bad. On topographical maps, part of the Owyhee Desert is named “YP Desert” after the ranch, and the third oldest brand in continuous use in the United States. Ranching has a long tradition there and grazing cattle or sheep are a common sight. This doesn’t mean they haven’t done some damage to the desert, but it does mean they didn’t do enough damage to keep the area from being recommended as wilderness. And recently, Obama signed a bill that included parts of the Owyhee Canyonlands as new wilderness.
what about space? if you put a box around it what would be outside… heaven! and hell would be underneath the box! and god can’t see all the bad stuff happening because the box is blocking his view because he had to prove it to you stupid atheists that’s why he lets bad stuff happen recently! and he moves faster than the speed of light so he dilates time and is lost way in the future now… thats how come the dinosaurs existed! and theres little holes in the box where his glorius light shones throguh and thats what you call stars because!
Thanks a lot, Raven. You just made me laugh out loud in a crowded computer lab and I might’ve snorted a little, too. But really, what else could one expect from a trickster god?
This entire article makes me sick to my stomach; I had no idea it was so bad. I won’t be visiting another state or federal park without donating at least a couple of dollars. Is there any way we can independently support the Parks Department without having the money funneled off for other things?
ok
poe
@135: You’re one of many that really appreciate what’s there because you’ve walked it. The truth arrives slowly. Comments and attitudes like yours resulted in the creation of the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument in the Clinton era. That was a fairly good compromise and it really raised awareness. Not far from Zion, either. :-)
Did Barb and Facilis have a forbidden love child?
Re 139:
Rev, did you notice that Tim Janger wrote that paragraph?
As Lily pointed out earlier, Jim Tanger appears to be an automated script that just posts at random from a list of canards. Not a single post of his has responded to any comments directed at him, nor do any refer to any other comments.
Chimp–did you notice that the ‘space’ post was by Tim Janger? :) Definitely someone messing around with Jim.
Matt Taibbi wrote an excellent, enlightening article called “Jesus Made Me Puke”. He goes undercover for a fundie Christian retreat. SCARY.
ok
poe
Or, possibly, meth. For a poe, JT went for just a few too many Time Cubes all at once.
Jim, if your god “moves faster than the speed of light so he dilates time and is lost way in the future now… ” then what need you or I worry in the least bit about him diddling with our lives?
Looks like you’ll be famous, Jim, for being the first to posit that not only is god not anywhere near here, he’s not even anywhen near now.
Thanks.
So, Jim. What will you be doing for the wild spaces of the planet during the rest of your life, seeing as there is no need to worry about mystic mischief any more?
yes and I did the same thing in the texas thread.
multitasking is not my forte today
If I could give just one bit of advice to Salazar, it would be to simplify the bureaucracy that manages public lands. Here’s just one example of the many-layered mess: Escalante, Utah is the organizational center for the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument. About 55 worker bees administer multiple layers of Bureau of Land Management (BLM) lands, Special Recreation Management Areas (SRMAs), National Forest, designated wilderness, wilderness study areas (WSAs), instant study areas (ISAs), National Park lands and National Recreation Areas (NRAs)—and how could we forget, a National Monument! It’s possible to have an SRMA within a WSA that is BLM land that is within the boundary of the GSENM. We must all be forgiven if we get a little confused sometimes in trying to figure out what rules and regulations apply, what visitors can do and where
Jim Tanger asked:
I like this guy’s way of putting it.
Aaah. Tim. Jim. Slim. Any of the Dim. Let ’em all in. They all taste the same.
*oops I didn’t notice the subtlefuge there. must be slippin’*
Wow, I’ve been to that fossil wall in Dinosaur Monument. It is epic. I had no idea it had been shut down.
I’ve also been to Zion. I’m curious about the neighboring land development there. The Zion slot canyon, like all slots, is exceptionally sensitive to changes in the surrounding watershed.
Aaah. Tim. Jim. Slim. Any of the Dim. Let ’em all in. They all taste the same.
Stale.
Pascal’s wager was debunked about 30s after it was first postulated.
If you do believe in the Xian god and it turns out that the Norse are right and Woden is the supreme god, or the Hindus are right and the Trimurti are the supreme gods, you’re just as screwed. Just about the only defence you might have is believing in no gods and leading a good and honest life.
An atheist life.
I was having one of those meaningless internet arguments on here a few days back with something called “Scooter” – he asserted that this was largely a political blog (and that we should be talking about appalling behaviour of Israel in Gaza, but that’s by the by) I asserted that it wasn’t primarily political, and that PZ, while undoubtedly liberal was not a Liberal, in the sense of being a political activist.
Do you think this is true, or have I simply failed to notice that Liberal politics is a large part of Pharyngula’s output? isSo far as I can see, most of the “politics” are more to do with singling out fuckwittery in public office in the US as opposed to promoting one factional view?
I think scooter is a Libertarian, which explains a lot – but was there any substance to his complaints?
Jim Tanger
Off the meds again, huh?
Jim-Tim @137 (Should he survive the comment scrubbing that’s sure to come, unless it’s actually PZ posting to keep us amused. You really are that evil, aren’t you, doctor?!)
Please stop Jim-Tim! My coworkers are getting upset. I’ve spit coffee all over my cubicle and half of it went over the wall into my neighbor’s work area and now we’re so busy laughing that the boss is giving us that “Stop reading Jim-Tim, stop laughing, stop spewing coffee, clean that mess up, and get back to work” look.
A box around space. Your god can’t see through it? If Superman can see through the box why can’t your god? Outside the box? I thought we put the box around space. What’s outside space? Heaven is under the box? Dude, you need a bigger box. I recommend a tri-wall with staples reinforced with glue. And a sturdy lid. You’ll want to use strapping tape – not that clear plastic Wal-Mart stuff. And a crane, a sky hook, or a space elevator. Really Big Boxes(tm) are a must for packing up space. Oh god! I have to stop now, the boss is coming. Jim-Tim, could you post another? We’re going to share during lunch break. You are a hoot and a half, dude. Not quite a hootenany but the closest thing we have so far today.
When are you going to be at the Laugh Hut? Jim-Tim and the Box Around Space Tour 2009. We’re totally there. Oh, and work on that skit about god moving faster than the speed of light and that’s why we had dinosaurs. There really is a hilarious joke in there – it just needs a little tidying up. And a recursive punch line where you bring the box around space back into it. Audiences really like it when they get to remember something.
re 66:
Isn’t “Barry” a nickname for Obama?
PZ: I guess the powers-that-be think it’s safe to let the drug-addled hippies and punks (and college professors) who read Rolling Stone to know about the failures of our government, but the bourgeoisie must not be perturbed.
Noam Chomsky in a nut-shell.
The only people you can really fool is yourselves.
at 156
i couldnt figure out how to get bacj to this one so i was over in texas… i just figured it out but i was just telling people the truth and everyone is so mean! if you want to know more you can find me in the next post but i think i did bad… i might have made God punch Holbach and now he isnt responding i think he is dead… is it my fault?
God has always existed.
How come he never returns my phone calls? Do I need to call him collect?
Jim should realize that sticking up for God is a losing fight Although, I still can’t really believe this guy isn’t a troll. He seems too aware of various argument paths to be this ignorant.
Sidenote: PZ nice job on rel=”nofollow”, if that’s a recent change or I just noticed it whatever, great job.
administration that lied about WMD in Iraq
But…but…but…I read in world net daily that there were WMD in Iraq. You’re not suggesting Joseph Farah & company were lying, are you?
I think scooter is a Libertarian, which explains a lot – but was there any substance to his complaints?
Doesn’t the former answer the latter?
I’ve never understood posters like Jim Tanger.
We know you’re being a troll. What the frick is your point? Please go away.
I’m going to ignore Jim from now on.
I haven’t read the RS article, but I’ll bet much of it was plucked directly from the awesomely excellent Grijalva report of last November. That guy should’ve been the pick for Interior, IMO. Salazar makes me nervous, but we shall see…
Harsh. Probably accurate, but harsh. The dude published Dr. Thompson, so there’s that. (KI, if you groove to the punk thing you’re really going to like that Carousel release.)
If God does exist, I really don’t think you should help him with his phone bill…
Lynn (and everyone else who knows the south-west)
I am planning a 2.5 week trip to the U.S. from Flagstaff to Denver by motorcycle next year, aiming to go through all those beautiful landscapes you mentioned, and would appreciate some advice on which places to check out. Sad to hear that the wall in Dinosaru Park is not accessible. So far the North Rim of the Grand Canyon, Monument Valley and Bryce Canyon are on the list (of course). Anyone have any recommendations for nice places to see/camp around there and over the mountains into Colorado?
Thanks!
Lynna said:
Comments and attitudes like yours resulted in the creation of the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument in the Clinton era. That was a fairly good compromise and it really raised awareness.
Heh heh. I grew up in Utah and I remember when Clinton created that. Utahans flipped the fuck out, especially because he made the announcement at the Grand Canyon. “That darn Slick Willy stole SITL plots from poor Utah schoolchildren just for the sake of a photo-op in a battleground state!”
Zion!
Springdale has great campgrounds right outside the main canyon. Get a burger at Oscars while you are there.
Kinda bike you taking Becky, enduro?
If so, go to Indian Creek, Utah. Hire a rock climbing guide and have him or her take you up the easiest desert tower out there. Be prepared for a new hobby when you come down.
Moab, Utah is a nice little town also. Great, free places to camp along the (only) nearby river.
Some great, long, sweeper curves on 70 near Grand Junction, CO. Have a blast.
That was to Becky WS.
Also the Kolob side of Zion is pretty cool too but just not as “Grand” as the Canyon side and is more primitive hiking trails instead of well defined roads and paths etc..
Or at least it was last time I was there.
Sven@165
My attitude toward Jann Wenner got a lot worse after I read “Slouching Toward Fargo” by Neal Karlen, a book about the St. Paul Saints independent minor league baseball team. It’s mostly about how Wenner wanted him to find anything he could to trash Bill Murray (part owner of the team), and how he grew to love the baseball and ended up blowing off the story he couldn’t fake and writing about the Saints instead. He sat behind me (at the ballpark) for a season after publishing, and detailed many of Mr. Wenner’s shortcomings as a “countercultural icon”. Two-faced hypocrisy is not limited to conservatives, “lefties” can be self-centered egomaniacs, too (if you can actually call Wenner a lefty). I’ve been privy to a rather one-sided portrait, I will confess, a scorned writer is a dangerous and not necessarily accurate witness.
Interesting, KI. I have no trouble at all seeing Wenner as a complete dick.
KI, why did Wenner have it in for B. Murray? Envy at his talent? Jealous of Murray’s true friendship with HST?
Jann Wenner, guitarpick collector of rock stars.
Speaking of the interior, whatever happened to that issue about “Air force is gonna use important fossil site for bombing practice?” Was it ever resolved?
Matt@174
Apparently Wenner was displeased with the unfavorable characterization he received in the movie “Where the Buffalo Roam”, in which Bill Murray plays Dr. Hunter S. Thompson (who Murray palled around with and who hated Wenner). He was hoping for a “Bill drives the bus and Darryl Strawberry smokes crack in the back” story (Strawberry played for the Saints for a couple months that year, trying to get back to the Big Leagues).
Karlen’s book is OK, not earth-shattering, but a good look into writing for pay and it’s about my favorite baseball team (season ticket holder for 15 years, and married at home plate).
Noogie envy?
Rev and Matt,
Thanks, we’re renting a Harley as it’s been a dream of my husband for years to do the classic biker thing, although it looks like Monument Valley might not be good for bikes.
We are climbers actually but not sure we can fit our gear into the panniers alongside camp stuff, so doing a climb with a guide is a great idea.
There’s actually a real place called Kolob? I thought that was just made up by the Mormons. If it was called Kobol, that would be far cooler…
Actually, Buffalo Roam was going to be my serious guess. The Wenner character was played by Bruno Kirby as a turtlenecked asshole.
I know that the buildup around the Valley Forge area is becoming extremely overwhelming. King of Prussia and the surrounding areas are some of the faster growing residential areas in eastern PA as people move to them to have the conveniences of the city close by but without having the cramped location. There have been many companies moving into the area as well that provide large support for working in the same area.
I wouldn’t be surprised to look out over Vally Forge in 10 years and see people using it as a backyard, houses and such literally encircling the area.
Well there is tons of climbing in Zion as well, though admittedly most everything I climbed there was mostly aid which would really not be conducive to packing a motorcycle.
ALL related. Glen A. Larson was mormon and I’m sure the mormons who first traveled the area were very responsible for Kolob canyon’s name.
It is well known that for serious journalism on public affairs, there are two publications that really matter : Rolling Stone and Washington Monthly.
If it was called Kobol, that would be far cooler
Calling it Fortran would be even cooler.
Jim Tanger (#68):
Why Jim, you actually said something relevant. We agree, that DOES sound like what DoI was like over the last few years…
It isn’t earth-shattering news that there were scandals at Interior that happened under Norton. They were already publicly known and being cleaned up under Kempthorne, before Salazar took office. People shouldn’t be giving Salazar credit for cleaning up scandals, that credit belongs to Kempthorne. What will be interesting is to see how Salazar changes the environmental policy that continued to be conservative under Kempthorne.
I know he’s a troll, but his questions provoke such easy, coherent responses, one imagines he’s using the Socratic method….
“You guys must have very depressing, abusive lives without God.”
Actually, we mostly spend our lives doing things we love (which are not abusive) such as writing, reading, learning, helping people, working, playing, etc. Which is pretty enjoyable.
“So we just die and get buried and nobody remembers us?”
Well, I don’t know about you, but I have friends and family who will remember me, and I expect to have an epitaph on my tombstone for the curious to see, and my name will be in the margins of some computer programs which will be used for decades. In a hundred years, sure, nobody will remember me, but I really don’t care.
“Humanity is experimenting with dangerous technology. We are all on the brink of regional war. Don’t we need God to sort this all out? We all fall short of God’s glory. Don’t we need a God to ensure that differing senses of right and wrong don’t result in catastrophe?”
Most of those wars are being conducted by obsessive God-believers arguing with each other.
Unlike the God-worshippers, most of us secularists have pretty much the same sense of right and wrong: hurting other people and damaging things (including the environment) is wrong; making other people happier, creating new good things and preserving the good things which exist (including the environment) is right. We may argue over the details (do we wipe out mosquitos because they spread disease or preserve them because birds feed on them?), but since we have the same principles, the details can be argued about rationally (evidence regarding the long-term results of different options, etc.)
It’s the atheists who avoided nuclear war.
Jim Tanger = spring break
just some dumb kid who ain’t got anything better to do but try to bother the “enemy” the atheists on the computer (internet).
The only thing that lets me be the least bit optimistic about the wild natural world, is there any other kind really? Is the resilience of it. Given the time “wild nature” reasserts itself. Some things may be lost including our civilization but “wild nature” will continue.
That the Bushies are gone is good but it is never over for good there will always be more to do. There are no “saviors” to fix everything for us each needs to do what we can ourselves.
saw this yesterday
http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/
and was reminded that this is a republic, a nation of law, and not really a democracy nor a theocracy nor an oligarchy. Seems that we have been ignoring that fact of late and the results are plane for all to see.
Lets see if we can again enforce the laws we make.
There is a reason the the statue of Justice is blindfolded.
Successful troll is successful.
pheh. The misidentification of punk rock with the Sex Pistols is probably the worst thing that ever happened to punk rock. Or to John Lyndon.
I hope we can find a way to help this guy. He got involved in freelancing and doing the Interior’s environmental protection job for it while Interior was doing its coke.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=6028982&autostart=y
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705295251/Bid-rigger-at-oil-auction-fined.html
“Fame is fleeting but obscurity is forever.” -Napoleon Bonaparte
Becky WS @ #167
I’ve also been all over that part of the state, and it is magnificent. One piece of advice I will offer – don’t put too many things on your list – you will get overwhelmed. There’s simply too much to do in just a single trip.
Another thing you might do is check out these sites. They are focused primarily on canyoneering, which you might be interested it doing while you are there, particularly Zion or in Moab. These outfits also rent gear, so you might not have to pack much of your own climbing gear.
Zion Adventure Company
http://www.zionadventures.com
Desert Highlights
http://www.deserthighlight s.com
800-747-1342
This site has a few other guiding outfits in the area listed too: http://www.canyoneeringusa.com
The Canyoneering USA site also has a lot of information on different areas to see. Just click on the ‘Canyoneering Guide’ label at the top of the page. If nothing else, check the different regions and look at the pictures. They are amazing. The site owner, Tom, is a canyoneering guide and long time climber, and knows the area very well.
Becky @ 167 and others looking for a trip to the earthly version of Kolob area of Zion and Zion N.P. in general. Here are my suggestions:
To stroll through the front country of Zion and to access the Visitor Center from the west take Scenic Byway 9 from Interstate-15; from the east take US 89 to the Mt. Carmel Junction north of Kanab, then continue on Scenic Byway 9. Both Kanab and St. George are about 40 miles from the Park. Front country visits are most enjoyable in the off season, late November and early March. The area around the Visitor Center is surrounded with bring-you-to-your-knees scenery, but it’s nice to see it without a mob scene of people. During peak season 3,000 cars per day jockey for 400 parking spots on Zion Canyon Road. Park managers now enforce a mandatory bus system that moves visitors and hikers. The propane-fueled buses cease to be mandatory in the off-season, and are not mandatory for lesser-used areas like the Kolob Canyons.
To camp in the Park, or to enjoy backcountry hikes, more fees must be paid and more forms filled out. Reservations are recommended for the more popular hiking routes, though it is sometimes possible to get a permit on a walk-in basis. Permits are required for day hikes as well as extended trips in the famous Zion Narrows, which less than 50 feet wide.
With the Virgin River carving a chasm 2,000 feet deep through the plateau, and many other canyons over a 1000 feet deep, all the human activity is dwarfed by the grandeur of the setting. There are many deep, narrow canyons in Utah, but there are none that match Zion for beauty.
BACKPACK: KOLOB ARCH and LA VERKIN CREEK
One-way length: about 12 miles, 24 miles round trip
Low and high elevations: 5030 feet to 6500 feet
Difficulty: moderate to strenuous
The highlights of this hike are Kolob Arch and an opportunity to really leave the crowds behind by continuing your hike into the upper reaches of La Verkin Creek where the BLM has added proposed wilderness to that of Zion National Park. Most hikers in this part of Zion NP explore a section of La Verkin Creek as part of their route to Willis Creek. At the Willis Creek confluence, take the canyon less traveled and continue north up La Verkin Creek. Strong hikers can choose a shortened day hike version by trekking 7 miles to Kolob Arch and then returning to Lee Pass Trailhead. Be wary of hiking the Timber Creek section of the return trip in late afternoon. If the weather is hot, it will be scorching along Timber Creek. For the entire expedition plan at least one overnight. Two nights and three days will give you time to explore along the way.
As with any hike that includes narrow canyons, flash flooding is a danger. The peak months for flash flooding are mid-July to early September. As you hike, note places where you can climb above the flash flood plain. Be aware of changes that precede a flood, including sudden changes in water clarity, rising water levels and stronger currents, distant sounds of thunder, and a roar of water coming from up-canyon. You can’t outrun a flash flood. Climb above it and wait for it to subside (usually in 24 hours or less). If you can’t climb above the water, shelter on the downstream side of a jutting rock so that the rush of water and debris will not knock you off your feet. Never enter the narrowest section of a canyon during threatening weather. The first half of the hike is easy, along a well-defined trail. After you enter the narrower sections of La Verkin, the going gets rougher and you must be more aware of the weather.
Temperatures on the Kolob Plateau can reach 105 degrees in July and August. Creek waters can be too high to safely ford and wade in the spring, so an ideal hiking time is either late June or September. No matter what season you choose, you will be wading frequently, so bring appropriate footwear. A lot of scrambling over rocks, and jumping boulders to cross creeks are par for the course. Pets are not permitted on Zion NP trails, and backcountry permits are required for camping within park boundaries. The Kolob Arch area is so heavily used that camping permits are limited for that section. Open fires are not permitted, so bring a small backpacking stove. Timber and La Verkin Creeks are perennial water sources, but filter or treat all water before drinking. Insect repellent or protective netting is necessary unless you are hiking so late in the autumn that cold nights have done the little biters in.
In the seldom-visited fingers of upper La Verkin Creek, the canyon walls are 700 to 900 feet high. This not like one of those places where all the good scenery is in the national park and when you leave park boundaries, you enter class B scenery on BLM land. In this case, the goods are delivered all the way to the end.
About 18 miles south of Cedar City, take exit 40 off Interstate-15, signed as “Kolob Canyons.” Stop at the Kolob Canyons Visitor Center to inquire about trail conditions and to purchase a backcountry permit. Drive about 4 miles to Lee Pass, the trailhead for this hike. Descend south along Timber Creek. If you have gotten a late start, there are camping spots along Timber Creek. You have to hike at least two miles from the trailhead before camping is allowed.
The trail ascends a ridge above Timber creek at about mile 2.5, turning from its southerly direction to east/northeast. The trail gradually descends again into the La Verkin Creek drainage. Continue upstream along La Verkin Creek. From the point where an old corral sits near the creek, it is about 2 miles to the junction with Kolob Arch Trail. Turn left (north) at the junction and hike half a mile to view the 292-foot arch of Navajo sandstone, said to be the largest in the world.
Return to La Verkin Creek and continue up-canyon. The number of hikers on the trail will thin out after you pass Kolob Arch. You’ll pass the Hop Valley Trail junction (another trip for another time). The trail we follow is signed “Willis Creek Trail.” As the canyon narrows, the cliff walls become more dramatic and the trail is more of a sketchy route than an actual trail. Frequent boulder-hopping and wading begins in the narrowed canyon. There are still campsites in the wider sections.
A tributary canyon opens on your left (north) about a mile above the Hop Valley junction, stay right here, in the main La Verkin drainage. From this tributary, it’s about half a mile to a major canyon junction, with Beartrap Canyon leading east (right fork) and La Verkin continuing north (left fork). If you have time, a one-mile side trip can be made into Beartrap Canyon. A waterfall blocks further exploration to all but technical rock climbers. The head of Beartrap Canyon is a BLM WSA that begins where the Park boundary ends.
Back in the La Verkin Creek Canyon, continue upstream through thick stands of foliage, including trees that manage to find a home in the ever-narrowing space. Hanging gardens decorate the canyon walls. There’s no room to camp until you reach the confluence with Willis Creek. Willis Creek is intermittent and not a reliable water source.
On this excursion we will bypass Willis Creek and continue north along La Verkin Creek, exiting Zion NP and entering the BLM wilderness study area. Solitude is almost certain as few backpackers enter the branching fingers of upper La Verkin. The canyon remains narrow for about a mile. All semblance of a trail is gone. Hikers are on their own—make a short excursion into the WSA or a longer one, your choice. Depending on the time of day, you may want to camp at the confluence of Willis Creek and La Verkin, saving your exploration of the BLM WSA for a day hike from your base camp.
Return the way you came to Lee Pass Trailhead.
Options: If you’re not up to scrambling and wading in narrow canyons, a driving tour and day hiking expedition across the Kolob Terrace begins in the small town of Virgin on Scenic Byway 9. Turn north out of Virgin, on the Kolob Reservoir Road. This partially paved road climbs up the canyon of North Creek onto the plateau. Side roads and trails lead east and west to various destinations in Zion National Park.
At the south end of Blue Springs Reservoir, a dirt road leads southeast from Kolob Reservoir Road to Lava Point and Goose Creek Knoll. The head of Goose Creek is one of the BLM wilderness study areas associated with Park lands also proposed for wilderness. Two trailheads here can be used as starting points for out-and-back day hiking. There’s a primitive campground in a pleasant setting at Lava Point. Bring your own water.
At about mile 25.4, at the northern end of the large Kolob Reservoir, a signed junction on the left “To La Verkin Creek in Zion National Park” identifies a spur road to an alternate trailhead for accessing Willis Creek and La Verkin Creek. This access to Willis Creek loses about 2200 feet of elevation in the 8.8 miles to the Park boundary. Most of the hiking is on an old road, now closed to vehicles. High altitude meadows and aspen groves predominate until the road turns south to approach the creek. Panoramic views and the beautiful groves of trees are the highlights of this hike. Some summer cabins and dilapidated pioneer cabins line the road. It’s a steep climb to return the way you came. A shuttle car at Lee Pass would be an option for backpackers. See the backpacking trip described above for the reverse course of this hike.
The Kolob Reservoir Road crosses a high plateau and may be snowed in from mid-October to June. It’s an excellent choice for the hot summer months as the high elevation offers relief from the heat. In good weather the road is suitable for sedans, but rough spots will slow you down. If you follow the road all the way to its northern terminus, you will exit the backcountry at Highway 14, between Cedar City and the Ashdown Gorge/Cedar Breaks area, about 42 miles from the town of Virgin.
I still enjoy the News Hour on PBS. I dont really enjoy the silliness on the Daily Show but I think Stephen Colbert is hilarious. We have to remember though that neither show on Comedy Central is written by journalists but comedy writers. So they can alter the facts as they see fit to get a laugh. Sort of like reading a blog and taking it all with a grain of salt and a heavy dose of skepticism. It is really sad that so many people use a comedy show as their main source of news. It really is not news at all. Very sad.
What Lynna said, with some additional information. The Zion Narrows hike is worth doing. You have several options – from the top (Chamberline Ranch) down, or from Orderville Canyon down into the Narrows – which is what I would recommend, so you don’t have to spend so much time walking in the water on the boulders. These two options require either a very long car/motorcycle shuttle, or you can hire a shuttle service. They also require permits, and the Zion permit system is a pain in the ass. You can try the on-line system, but I think you have to register, which requires a trip to the main visitor center. One option that doesn’t require a permit is to walk up the Narrows as far as you want and then come back down. If you do this hike, rent shoes and poles from Zion Adventure Company. They make a huge difference (you spend a lot of time walking in the water).
The park shuttle service works very well, and I highly recommend it. You can park in the park itself, or you can park in the town of Springdale and catch a shuttle in town.
Two spectacular hikes inside the park are Angel’s Landing and Observation Point (you can hit Hidden Canyon while hiking Observation Point). Neither of these require permits, but you will be sharing the trail with a bunch of other people. Both trails go beyond these points, if you want to go further. If you want to camp along these trails you will need permits.
If you go in the warmer months, take warnings about water and hats seriously. In fact, anywhere in the Colorado Plateau, use hats and always carry plenty of water. And sports drinks.
Hi, again, Becky. Here are my suggestions for Bryce:
The elevation of 8,000 to 9,000 feet at the rim usually guarantees cooler temperatures, seldom exceeding 80 degrees in the summer. Precipitation averages 18 inches per year, so this Park is not as dry and hot as Utah’s other national parks. The North Campground at Bryce is open all year, but high winds and extreme cold make winter camping difficult. Intrepid winter campers will be rewarded however with empty trails covered in creamy-soft snow and mists that swirl around the eroded shapes, creating a mysterious landscape completely different from the crowded, noisy atmosphere that characterizes the summer months.
There are 60 miles of hiking trails, most in good condition, but washouts in spring, or heavy snows in winter, require good hiking boots. Trails with mellow elevation changes are used as cross country ski routes in the winter. Most of the hiking trails that dip below the rim are rated “strenuous.”
“Sunrise” and “Sunset” view points are accurately named. Recent rain or snow intensifies the colors. Some vistas, like those from Rainbow or Yovimpa, allow you to see all the way to Arizona on clear days. Deep in the canyons, reflected light creates subtle effects that are well-worth capturing on film.
Backcountry permits are required and are available at the Visitor Center. Water availability and quality varies throughout the hiking season (May to October), so be sure to check the water chart at the Visitor Center before you go. There are springs along the backpacking routes and near most of the designated camping sites. Nights are cool and campfires are prohibited, so be prepared with shelter and warm clothes.
For all of the hikes listed below, the Park’s rim road, Highway 63, is the access route. From US 89 (seven miles south of Panguitch and 61 miles north of Kanab) turn east onto Highway 12. Highway 12 takes you through scenic Red Canyon. The entrance to Bryce Canyon National Park and Highway 63 is clearly marked, 7.5 miles west of the small town of Tropic. If you approach from the east, the distance from Escalante is 47 miles.
LOOP HIKE: RIGGS SPRING LOOP TRAIL
One-way length: 8.7 miles
Low and high elevations: 7440 to 9115 feet
Difficulty: moderate
Like the hikes described below, this loop receives less use by Park visitors and is more likely to feel like a wilderness excursion. The length of the trail is longer than most of the day hikes in Bryce, and the trailhead at Rainbow Point is at the extreme southern end of the Park. Three distinct life zones are represented in the Park’s 2,500 feet of vertical relief. Rigg Spring Loop descends through two of the zones, fir forests and scrub oak woodlands, before the trail climbs back to the rim road over Yovimpa Pass. The forests, hoodoos, and views into Arizona are the scenic highlights. It’s possible to do the loop as a day hike, but an overnight backpack is recommended. There are three campsites along the loop and two have a water source. Rigg Springs is a grassy, shady campsite with groves of pines and aspen trees. The aspen grove around the spring is particularly beautiful in the fall. The campsite at Yovimpa Pass boasts a reliable water source and grassy sites.
SHUTTLE HIKE: UNDER THE RIM TRAIL
One-way length: 23 miles
Low and high elevations: 6800 to 9115 feet
Difficulty: strenuous
The longest trail in the Park is the 23-mile-long “Under the Rim Trail,” a two or three-day backpacking trip. You can shorten the hike by coming back to the rim at any one of five connecting trails. All of the hiking routes that include the Under the Rim Trail work best as shuttle hikes. A new system of Park shuttle buses provides transportation to and from trailheads. The Under the Rim Trail offers a different perspective on the hoodoo formations, an intimate view of the layers of Claron Formation limestone, and a descent from ponderosa pines, through pinyon/juniper woodlands, into meadowlands and sandy canyon floors. Begin in the south at Rainbow Point, or in the north at Bryce Point.
SHUTTLE HIKE: WHITEMAN CONNECTING TRAIL TO PONDEROSA VIEW POINT
One-way length: 6.96 miles
Low and high elevations: 8120 to 9011
Difficulty: strenuous
The Whiteman Connecting Trail to Ponderosa View Point is a beautiful hike through rough terrain where mountain lions and bobcats roam. Whiteman used to be a road, but is now closed to motorized travel. The old road makes for the easiest descent of all the connector trails. This shuttle hike is a piece of the Under the Rim Trail described above. Turn south toward Agua Canyon and you’ll usually find solitude thanks to fewer water sources than the northern route. This is a good springtime hike when water supplies are less critical. There are a lot of small ups and downs and some sandy areas on the trail; and a steep climb is required up the Agua Connecting Trail to the rim road at Ponderosa View Point. The Agua Connecting Trail is seldom used, but is the most scenic of the connector trails. Allow 5 to 6 hours of hiking time. There’s a tent campsite at Natural Bridge, Agua Canyon, but you will have to bring your own water. Begin this hike at Whiteman Bench or at Ponderosa View Point.
backlog of up to $14 billion in deferred maintenance.
Yes, the Bush administration was an environmental disaster, but to be fair, his administration began with significant backlogs.
From the National Parks Conservation Association report, The Burgeoning Backlog
In a farewell address to the Greater Yellowstone Coalition in June 2001, former Yellowstone National Park superintendent Michael Finley said, “Lack of sufficient funding will continue to be the greatest long-term threat to the protection of Yellowstone’s natural and cultural treasures…In my 32-year career with the National Park Service, I never had sufficient funding to properly undertake my responsibilities. I always ran parks with a budget appropriate to a run-down Volkswagen. What we really wanted was a budget appropriate to a midsize Chevy.”
Later in the report:
NPCA’s analysis of the Park Service’s backlog justification shows that during the last four years of the Clinton administration (FY98 – FY01), funding for the programs that address the backlog of park maintenance projects (facility maintenance, construction, park roads, and the recreational fee demonstration program) increased, on average, 12.8 percent annually. Funding for the backlog under the current administration (FY02 – FY05 request) has increased, on average, only 7.4 percent annually for the same programs.
In order to keep the parks from falling any farther behind, the administration and Congress must allocate an additional $600 million in new funds toward park operations and provide a significant investment toward reducing the backlog.
The administration’s fiscal year 2005 budget request includes small operating increases for 74 of 387 parks, but does not allocate nearly enough funds to fulfill the president’s pledge to eliminate the backlog or make up any significant portion of the parks’ annual operating shortfall.
Re: Judeo-Christian:
Would someone be so kind as to point me to this thread? I was reading it last night, did not finish, neglected to bookmark, cannot find…
Do you live in the real world? There already are radically different views on right and wrong, even among different sects of the same religions. In the end it’s clear where our basic moral come from, and it’s certainly not religion. Religion colors them, it doesn’t give them.
I know the troll’s a nonissue here, but this question
Tell me, how many charitable atheist organizations have you seen?
…always requires that this be posted:
http://www.atheists.org/The_Question_of_Atheists_Hospitals