I keep telling people this isn’t only about biology — every scientific discipline is under attack. I’m sure physicists aren’t complacent: another teaching standard diluted into meaninglessness was one about the age of the universe.
Originally in the Texas school standards was this phrase: “concept of an expanding universe that originated about 14 billion years ago.” However, board member Barbara Cargill thought this wasn’t good enough. It was too definite. The standards now read, “current theories of the evolution of the universe including estimates for the age of the universe.” You can bet that the age of the earth is not listed in the Texas curriculum as about 4.5 billion years old — in spite of the fact that most of the people my age and older have known (or rather, estimated) this for years.
It’s too late and they aren’t going to listen to me anyway, but if I had to modify that particular standard, I would have changed it to “how we know the universe is expanding and originated about 14 billion years ago.” That would certainly cover the spirit of Cargill’s revision, forcing teachers to discuss methodology and evidence. Right?
Or does Cargill seriously want teachers to discuss 4.5 billion year old earth explanations vs. myths that say the earth is 0.000006 billion years old? Because that would be ridiculous.
Good. More debate in the class. Creationism is very valid, imo. You atheists say we came from nothing. Just an explosion. Yeah right.
In your ignorant, worthless opinion, you mean. Atheists do not say we came from nothing or from an explosion.
Ew! Am I right in thinking that “evolution” is a dog-whistle linking evolutionary biology and Big Bang cosmology in the minds of the truly stupid?
Then PZ please explain to me how the universe was formed if not by God. Some random explosion? Did you also know that the man who formed the Big Bang theory was religious?
Matt you are very very right. I don’t think they’re just after the sciences though, I really see this as a large anti-intellectual movement that scares the holy crap out of me, quite frankly.
Have creationists and religious apologetics gone so far as to refresh your blog repeatedly in order to get a “first post”?
Mr. Tanger, I would advise you to look at evidence before forming a conclusion about the origins of the universe. Astrophysicists have discovered a lot of things about our universe using real evidence.
Religion has not discovered anything about our universe. The Judeo-Christian religion(s) discovered that pi was equal to exactly three. They discovered, because the Epic of Gilgamesh told them so, that the planet on which we live is approximately 6,000 years old. They discovered that if a woman should speak inside of a holy building that she should be stoned. Oh, did I take that too far?
which god?
Oh damn! I thought Jim was a Poe!?
Can we let Texas go back to Mexico?
Mr.Tanger: The observed positive mass energy density is equal to the critical density, in which positive kinetic and rest energy is balanced by the negative gravitational potential energy.
Fools. Evolution didn’t create the grand canyon or the universe. Quit being so ignorant and closed minded.
On the school board front in Lincoln, Nebraska:
Primary results:
Good news:
Kathy Danek, Dist 1 (creationists Kirby Young and Greg Wiltshire down in flames)
Barbara Baier, Dist 3
Donald Mayhew, Dist 7 (creationist Andrew Ringsmuth beaten more than 2:1)
Bad news:
Kevin Keller, Dist 5 over pro-science candidate Lanny Boswell
Wonder why PZ still hasn’t told me why we should accept something as questionable and unproven as the Big Bang.
Jim– I’m an atheist, but also a stay-at-home dad. In other words, NOT a scientist. I’ve gotten in discussions before with religious folks like you, who try to declare victory for their position by rightly stating that I don’t know how the universe was formed– “scientists say,” etc…
Guess what, Jim? Your religious leaders are just saying things as well. The difference is that scientists have a chain of evidence that leads directly to their statements. You’ve got a moldy book full of re-translated garbage written thousands of years ago.
As much as I’m sure it gives you great comfort to believe in, I wish you could be a more honest person and just accept the fact that these myths no longer have a place in the modern world.
Tanger: Actually, there would have to be 6 Big Bangs to account for Yahweh’s work week where he zapped everything into place with his divine paws.
OK Jim, if everything needs a creator, where’s God’s. And if there’s a special case exempting it, why doesn’t that case apply to the universe itself?
Physics, geology, history, biology… basically, if it’s got an “-ology” on the end, and doesn’t start “the-,” it’s wrong. After all: the ology is the only ology, by definition.
If it is a study of things that actually exist, it’s wrong. If it’s a study of anything that might indicate that god doesn’t necessarily exist, it’s wrong. Feel free to study philosophy, as long as you are trying to prove that you can’t have morals without god. Don’t try to prove that god exists; you might find out it doesn’t.
I’m a lazy bastard, but I’m thinking it’s time to get involved with the school board here. Even though my kid turns 21 today, and I don’t have any kids in school now.
Great news, James. Thanks fro the update.
Jim Tanger: “God did it” is no explanation. You’ve brought nothing to the discussion except disrespect for the many people who have been studying these questions for generations now. Have you no shame?
Answer me this simple question. If the universe could not possibly have “come from nothing,” if “a creation must have a creator,” then who or what created God? Or are you claiming special privilege for your presumed Creator? If so, on what basis do you suspend your “nothing comes from nothing” law in this one case? Please show your work. Thank you.
Why do you think PZ was in that car accident after he spoke ill of God several times. It was divine punishment for his sins. However, he lived. God wants him to repent and enter the Kingdom.
Jim Tanger, why do you supposed one of my high school friends was killed in a car crash one New Year’s Eve after having gone to church the morning of that very same day? Please show your work.
Now this is just getting funny. Surely Mr. Tanger is a poe? If not; Jim – you are in way over your head!
Fuck it I’ll let myself be trolled.
I expect PZ knew that; most people with a basic general knowledge of science do. Not just religious in fact but a Catholic priest, Georges Lemaitre. He was, however, insistent that his ‘hypothesis of the primeval atom’ was nothing to do with God or religion. He knew how to compartmentalise his two jobs. Indeed Lemaitre’s idea together with the theory of general reletivity it relies on is very troubling for a creationist view of the universe. At least as many physicists interpret it pacetime is curved such that there IS no “before the Big Bang”, just as there is no “north of the north pole”. No before means no cause.
This says nothing good about our society at all. They don’t even realize how difficult it would be to scrub all of the numbers that invalidate a young Earth from physics and geology. Fiddling with statements to hide estimates for the age of the universe is just scratching the surface. Do they also plan on scrapping all field trips to museums?
Tanger: This *has* to be Poe. Okay, confess and tell us you are Phil Plait.
God cannot regulate every accident. He rarely intervenes. However, PZ is a heathen and he spoke ill of the Lord. He truly, deeply loves all of you. None of you will know the beauty of life and the world without God.
Jim, you’ve almost convinced me with your insightful comments and cogent, layered arguments. One last question; seriously, WTF dude?
I’m in Texas, and I know that the Earth is 4,500,000,032 years old. I know this because when I was a junior in high school, here in Texas, I learned that the Earth was 4,500,000,000 years old, and that was 32 years ago.
How the fuck is a biological process supposed to create the Grand Canyon or the universe? Quit being so ignorant.*
*presuming not a Poe.
Ok Jim. Now how about answering the question from Watchmen instead of trying to change the subject?
I wonder why Jim the liar and bullshitter has not shown physical evidence for his imagainary deity that will pass muster with scientists, magicians, and professional debunkers as being of divine, and not natural, origin. Oh, yeah, there is none.
Tejas is a mess, it’s true, but the estimates for the age of the universe have changed at least twice over the last couple decades. From 20 billion, to <10 billion to the currently accepted 12-14.
Mind you, I’m all for suspecting an ulterior motive there, but technically, this proposal is a better one.
In the realm of topics where fundamental understandings are still evolving, we don’t gain anything by being dogmatic about the current view.
One of the major virtues of science is its willingness to be tentative about conclusions, where warranted.
–dan
Jim @ #25:
“God cannot regulate every accident.” You mean, God is not omnipotent?
Alternatively, did you mean “God chooses not to regulate every accident, even though it is entirely within His power to prevent all accidents from happening or any harm coming to anyone ever”?
Just checking.
Where in the world do the freaks (in the bad sense of the word) keep coming from? Every week, another clueless fool comes in repeating the same tired godma and blathering his or her unsubstantiated bollocks. Tiresome, it is.
William S Burroughs once imagined a genetically modified virus that would attack anyone whose brain was wired to absolutes (right/wrong, good/evil), as soon as the person thought “I am absolutely right” the virus would become active and kill off the certaintist. Anyone out there capable of creating this?
Please help keep the forces of logic and reason ahead in this poll. We do not need to amend the Iowa Constitution to include discrimination. We’ve been leading so far, please help keep it that way.
Do you think the Iowa Legislature should debate a constitutional amendment on same-sex marriage this session?
Yes – 43.2%
No – 56.8%
http://www.gazetteonline.com/
Sorry for OT but ZOMG there is scienceblogs.com.br post in “most active”. I didn’t even know that was possible.
If God regulated everything then we would not be able to acknowledge that we are sinners and consequently fall short of glory. He wants us to have eternal life, but omnipotence does not mean that he has to act on every worldly incident. He is very subtle and very, very selective. But he’s wise and just.
And you know this why?
Jim Tanger:
What a pathetic, self-contradicting non-answer. Why should I have expected better a godbot so full of hubris that his head is likely to explode?
HEED MY WARNING, JIM TANGER! YOU PRESUME TO KNOW THE MIND OF GOD, AND LIKE PETER, YOU WILL BE REBUKED BY THE LORD!
HOW can you say that? Didn’t he create the universe?
Jim, your god doesn’t exist and your bible is a work of fiction. Show me otherwise with physical evidence. Otherwise you are just a delusional fool.
Dan wrote:
Ten years ago, there was uncertainty because we didn’t have good data. It was commonly estimated to be between 10 to 18 billion years old, and everyone acknowledged this window of uncertainty.
But there is a strong consensus on the measurement data from COBE and then from WMAP, which peg the figure at 13.7 +/- 0.1 billion years. Now maybe we’ll find something really surprising that will make it off by 0.3 billion, but in any case the value will stay “about 14” like the rejected standard said.
Jim wrote “God cannot” – BLASPHEMY!!!
dude, stay out of cars, small airplanes, golf courses, ….
@ JD #24: I actually laughed out loud.
Remember folks, Jim asked this classic hint at stupidity in an earlier thread
Poe?
Well he surely strengthens Poe’s law because that is grade A dumbfuckery.
At face value, this kind of thing wouldn’t bother me, but after watching how these people distort these small changes, it is honestly scary. They use changes like these to create the smallest cracks in which they can grab hold of to control other people’s knowledge.
By the way, Jim, your car-crash dodge will not get you off the hook for responding to Gruesome Rob at #16 and me at #18.
Ante up, laddie, or get out of the game.
Come on guys & girls.. Even a creationist isnt THAT obvious.. POE!
Yeah, and what about Kevin’s Dead Cat?
Survivor Pharyngula: Season II. I vote off Jim. He brings nothing to the debate, just the same old tired arguments we’ve all heard a million times before. Kenny? Kenny! Where are you!?
@Jim Tanger: No. Bible study is fun and educational. Since doing it, I don’t believe in your god any more than I believe in Zeus, Odin, Shiva or any other god. They all have lovely epics telling about them. Enjoyable to read. Not non-fiction.
Besides, if your god was real, why would I worship a bully who demands attention, murders people, damns innocent people forever before birth, lies, and fakes his own death?
But he’s wise and just.
Slightly interesting claim, this one. Wise and just are, of course, value judgement and so are matter of opinion rather than fact. Now, in any version that I’ve had him presented by Abrahamists, god is (IMHO) a complete fucking dick of the lowest morals imaginable, and I’m glad he doesn’t exist. OTOH I know many genuinely decent people who claim to agree with what Jim says. It’s baffling – like discovering someone you like has always admired Thatcher.
Jim Tanger, similar to Watchman (#20), shame on you.
“Why do you think PZ was in that car accident after he spoke ill of God several times. It was divine punishment for his sins. However, he lived. God wants him to repent and enter the Kingdom.”
Please explain how a young man of 15 named Kyle C. died of heart failure after battling a chronic condition… died a matter of days after attending a Catholic youth retreat… died after getting up before dawn, sitting atop a hill with myself and a half-dozen other kids, professing his love for God’s creation.
Please explain how a meddling creator deity makes any sense in light of this story, without appeals to emotion or saying God has a pre-destined plan for all of us. Many have thought about it and come to the conclusion that there are probably no gods (I won’t go through it again here), and realizing this makes it all better. We might as well live our lives as if gods do not exist: There are no plans except for those we make for ourselves. There are no saviors except for those who help others with their bootstraps. There are no demons except for ignorant social deviants.
There are no sinners, no chosen, only men and women.
And there are also fools who will never listen, if not be fully alive and aware in the only life anyone can guarantee.
gotta repsot so you know the gospel about space!? if you put a box around it what would be outside… heaven! and hell would be underneath the box! and god can’t see all the bad stuff happening because the box is blocking his view because he had to prove it to you stupid atheists that’s why he lets bad stuff happen recently! and he moves faster than the speed of light so he dilates time and is lost way in the future now… thats how come the dinosaurs existed! and theres little holes in the box where his glorius light shones throguh and thats what you call stars because!
Yes, as more evidence has been uncovered, the uncertainty in the measurement decreases. This is not terribly surprising. The astronomy and cosmology books I grew up reading in the late 1980s typically said that the age of the Universe was somewhere between 10 and 20 billion years, “so we’ll split the difference and call it 15 billion”. The trend of best reasonable figures has been increasing since the early 20th century, settling on the currently-accepted value as more and more data has been incorporated. A more recent value based on better data carries more weight than an earlier estimate made in greater ignorance. I’m not sure where your up-and-down timeline comes from.
Technically, one should consider all the available evidence. Technically, we know that people in positions of power are creationist wackaloons. The “ulterior motive” is in this case the parsimonious hypothesis.
First they came for the biologists but I was not a biologist….
Fundies will attempt to destroy physics, geology, paleontology, anthropology, archaeology, and history (at the least), all fields that contradict their 2 pages of mythology.
This would set us well on the way back to the Dark Ages. Probably won’t happen. Few people want to say grace over a dead rat for dinner while watching half their kids die of diseases they don’t even have names for.
@#38
Why is it that you people have such a low opinion of the abilities of a being you claim to be omnipotent? If god was really omnipotent it’s well within its power to regulate everything while still allowing us to “acknowledge that we are sinners”. It could also ensure that we would never have become sinners in the first place while still maintaining free will, just because i feel that BS free will argument creeping up.
You see Jim, the truth is that the Christian belief system only created these excuses because you people can’t reconcile the benevolent, omnipotent god you want to believe in with the world around you. So you have to create these convoluted scenarios to half-assedly explain away your god’s inability to actually do anything. You create these arbitrary limitations your god has apparently placed on itself for no apparent reason, so you don’t have to consider the possibility that maybe god doesn’t really care, enjoys your suffering, or doesn’t even exist in the first place.
Possibly because he’s a biologist, not a cosmologist?
.000006 Billion years is a margin of error of 99.999999999999999562043795620438%. (100 – (6000/13.7 Billion)).
Epic fail!
I fail at blockquotation.
Tim Janger at #52:
That’s a wonderful step up in coherence from what we’ve got so far from Jim. Please keep interpreting for him, and we may start really knowing this misunderstood soul!
It makes me feel better that even a pro blogger like Blake Stacey can bork his blockquotes
Jim at #19 – That is so funny I just about choked to death laughing. Thanks for starting my morning off right. Idiot.
Is this the first time a thread got derailed before it got started? And in the spirit of staying off track; Jim, what supernatural powers do you have that allows you to know the motive of the big sky daddy? And why are most of the regulars at this blog still alive after all of our collective talking ill of your deity.
Also, I was under the impression that the big sky daddy was aware of every feather of every sparrow. How could he not regulate every accident?
Ok that has to be a Poe. You’re saying God wants us to fall short of glory?
Sometimes I think the Texas school board must have been selected by some evil genius in the California legislature. Because they seem to be doing everything in their power to provide more job opportunities for other States’ high school graduates.
What’s next? Discussing estimates for the speed of light in a vacuum? Oh wait, they have to fudge that too to get light across a 14 billion year old nucleus. Or light has to be fabricated in transit from faux stars in distant galaxies.
If these people can’t get a grip on what science has revealed in the last hundred years, they have a dismal future awaiting them.
Damn it, that’s supposed to be @36, not 38.
#25 Jim Tanger
I think Jim got this right. PZ does truly, deeply love all of us.
Jim will come up with a non-answer for everything. He will rationalize away every question, every conundrum, every contradiction, every inconvenient fact, because he has access to Magic God-Logic that makes everything easily and completely explainable by offering up nothing more than a nod and a wink!
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
I can’t wait for him to explain how he can know the mind of God in the case of PZ’s automobile mishap, in the case of my friend’s fatal accident, and in the case of #51’s sad tale of a life cut short.
Come on, now, Jim. Tell us. You have a direct line into The Mind of God. You really are THAT SPECIAL, aren’t you. Aren’t you? God speaks to you directly, doesn’t He. Doesn’t He? Through your dog, or something?
Come on, Jim. Tell us.
Tell us.
Tell us what God is thinking, and why.
And be sure to report back to your congregation that you’ve become a Prophet of the Lord. I’m sure they’ll all be very, very impressed, and from that time forward shall call you only by your true name: Vox Dei.
Jim wrote: “Did you also know that the man who formed the Big Bang theory was religious?”
first, who cares if he was religious? he wore glasses too. it doesn’t matter.
also, if a religious person could look at the evidence in nature and come up with the theory of how the universe evolved without invoking unsupported stories in the bible, why can’t you?
Oops, a toaster just fellz on me from out of teh sky. Gaaaaaaaawdamn Jim, youz right!
Tim Janger#52.
So, you live in a box?
God told me the truth about it! he was created by the big bang! (a whole bunch of times!) but his magick powers are! and when he masturbated it landed on earth and mixed in with some stuff like lava… but it was godly and made little people calle d bacteria and then god had sex with them and the babies where part god and so they improved on the orignial (random mutations) and the better ones survived and god is insatiable and had bunchs of sex and the little peoples had sex with each others and kept mixing their god particles until better peoples came out and after longs year (like 6,000! but they are god years so good luck counting that many nanosexonds HAHA!) and now humans have the most god particles and we are closest to what he looks like (TOLD YOU GODS IMAGE!!!) and when we are like 99.9999% he will have sex wwith her and make a BIG BANG (bang her booty HAHA!) world explosion NEW UNIVERSE!!! baby god to start process over!!! OMG! and he had sex with mary and jesus got his magic walk on water power! but jesus was celibate and didnt pass his genetic god particles on… DARN!!
You have to admire the wording, though: “theories on tne evolution” of the Universe… blah, blah, blah… this is so obviously desinged to resonate with the whole “just a theory” crowd, it’s sickening.
LMAO
@57: I meant for the age of the universe.
For earth, it’s still an error of 99.999998678414096916299559471366%. (100 – (6000/(4.54×10^9))
poe or not, huffing paint is bad for you
Jim just because the paint is gold, doesn’t mean you need to inhale it
This is amusing. It’s almost like an inquisition where the faithful are presented with a heretic then proceed to take him apart. In this case the heretics are presented with the faithful. Poetic justice?
Sauve #11:
Exploring nature through science doesn’t close minds or foster ignorance, it’s blind faith that does, when it says “A supernatural creature did it; we cannot know why; stop trying to explain things in any other way”.
I’d call your attitude medieval if only it wasn’t still alive and afflicting the credulous today.
Are they next going to say that Sumerians never existed?
humm, I seemed to have missed that name thing
carry on
So what’s the record speed for getting banned from here?
I vote Jim Tanger is removed, a.s.a.p.
Not really. It’s depressing and disheartening that anyone, in this day and age, can believe, think, and speak as Jim does. I support his right to believe what he wants, but… damn! What a mess!
@Rev. BigDumbChimp:
Read the name on the post you quoted again.
Reading through these comments, clearly everybody denying the age of the universe is a poe. I mean, how can a black hole possibly form in 9000 years?
To continue the thread derailment …
Welcome to the world of Texas style High School education.
These nutters already have a problem grasping history, so it’s no surprise that all academic subjects will be assaulted. I really hate that ideology. Can’t they get a fucking clue??
yes and I did it in the Interior thread as well.
/sulk
@#76 Thoughtful Guy
“It’s almost like an inquisition where the faithful are presented with a heretic then proceed to take him apart. In this case the heretics are presented with the faithful. Poetic justice?”
It is appropriate to rip apart the dogmatic for being dogmatic, not for what particular dogma they have. Dogmatism, not error in belief, is what is anti-scientific and should have no respect. If somebody differed, but was not dogmatic, then it would be appropriate to treat such a person with respect. However, creationists are not scientific; they are dogmatic.
@83: I’d ask yo momma but her redshift is kinda intimidating. :P
Sorry, had to.
black holes where formed instantantly by the flood! where do you think god created the drain!! and theres no god in the pipes so no light comes out and it is black! geez laweez! any more questions? email me and ill show you countless evidence and arrange a meeting with Gods nephew who can provide eye witness testimony… TESTIFY!
He’s not coming back, so now just imagine you’re arguing in a room with a bunch of people who will agree with you.
Nothing to see here, move along (or talk about Texas).
…if I had to modify that particular standard, I would have changed it to “how we know the universe is expanding and originated about 14 billion years ago.”
I’d change it to “explain the standard model and reference competing theories and how they helped refine the standard model” which would allow the teacher to show how proper contrary theorizing – such as QSS – actually assists the scientific method in contrast to how psuedo-science and superstition based theories serve only to hinder the scientific method.
And the echo of the big bang…Cosmic Background Radiation… was confirmed and correlated to the predicted 3 degree kelvin temp…COBE supported the finding and delivered evidence that was overwhelmingly accurate and within 1% of theoretical blackbody spectrum that was forecast.
There is a uniform and steady ‘noise’ from every direction…it even has the perturbations that inflation theory suggests must be there…and this is on a cosmic scale…and still the fools do not hear…because they do not want to!
Mythology is easier then science!
@#89: I suspect you mean “Jim”. Tim is right above you deeply full of win.
Tanger: a troll, and not a very good one. Most likely a teenie. By teenie!
Re Tanger,
Tanger doesn’t believe anything he is spouting. He is here merely to disrupt. Everything he posts is lifted directly from the “Bingo card” of creationists talking points. He is most likely some 14 year-old /b/tard from 4chan. Ignore him, he’s not reading your replies to him, or if he is, certainly does not care. He’s probably doing the same (but opposite)thing on some creationist site posting atheist comments and seeing which site he can disrupt the most. Ban him back to 4chan.
There seems to be something confouning and i prayed to him that you would see it! and you did… i sadi God make them read that i am not Jim Tanger but i am Tim Janger (coincedence, HA i doubt it… Gods plans) so everyone that did notice on their own is touched by God and everyone who is reading thist and now nows is also touched by God but not as quick… and i am confussled by trying to post in both things so i will not… will someone tell the other posts peoples that they are touched by the LORDF? thanks you
I suppose you could call the age of the universe an “estimate,” but more properly it’s a “determination” with some margin of error. It is not a guess, or a “mere estimate,” even if it were to be overturned tomorrow.
An estimate is how long a person has been dead, based upon body temperature. The error bars are large, so we call it an estimate.
The age of the universe has been measured, with about as much certainty as a clock (within the margins of error, of course). The simple fact that there is always some doubts about science isn’t anything different than the fact that there are always doubts pervading all experiences of life.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
Texas does not compromise with stupidity.
Texas compromises with knowledge & intelligence, but only so far as it’s compelled to.
Likewise for the US Constitution, etc.
I’m certain I couldn’t… Ooo, Ouch, my brain hurts.
The latest creationist answer to the age of the universe problem is that the early earth underwent gravitational time dilation relative to the rest of the universe. So earth = 6k subjective yrs old, rest of universe = 14b yrs old. (I know, you can’t make this stuff up.) Those Texas creationists need to get with the program!
Maybe this is why Genesis 1 and 2 are different. God creates everything via Gen 1, all life on Earth is immediately squashed flat by gravity, so he has a do-over.
@95: Say, are you by any chance a fan of Edgar Allan…
POE?
Jim Tanger = Stupid creotard.
Tim Janger = Epic win.
I seem to remember another way around the age of the universe is to postulate that the speed of light was infinite at the beginning and has been slowing down ever since.
@99: For that to happen, the earth would have to be ginormous. More massive than the rest of the universe.
Except that during the Inquisition, the heretics weren’t actively volunteering for their parts. If some God-botherer decides he wants to walk into the lion’s den and shout “Come on then!”, he’s going to get mauled.
Ah, yes. Barbara Cargill. I’ve mentioned this in previous threads on the Texas State Board of Education, and it reinforces what raven is saying at #54.
Everyone has an interest in the maintenance of scientific rigor, critical thinking, and the standards of the scientific method in education. Artists, musicians, literature students, as well as engineers, administrators, biologists, geologists, statisticians, physicists, and the list goes on.
Why? Why should students of, say, English literature (as I was in my undergraduate days) be interested in the maintenance of good science free of superstitious gap-rationalization in public education?
Beyond just the potential repercussions of failing science standards and their effect on future technological, medical, theoretical, and other fields, everyone has an interest in sound educational foundations. If one (biology, or evolution in biology) can be attacked, then what’s to suggest that ultimately things like painting, pottery, poetry, literature, civics, history, and so forth will be spared? Indeed, in attacking something like biology, creationists and other superstitious advocates are attacking history, as just one example, in an effort to suggest that past information critical to contemporary understanding (understanding that can change, which science willingly accepts when the evidence is there) is somehow invalidated on the basis of superstition rather than evidence.
We all have an interest in this. Even if you never study anything further in a scientific discipline, you (the collective you, er, we) still have an interest in making sure that the strong standards based on evidence and peer-review through rigorous critical thinking and experimentation continue.
What’s scary about it is how some of the superstitious elements are aligned not with advancement, but specifically with what they perceive to be the “end of the world.” Many of the devout don’t want the world to get better through god or gods, rather than science; they want the world to end. They’re not interested in standards, they’re interested in global murder-suicide.
No kings,
Robert
That god guy is a really bad role model.
at #100
i dont believe in Edgar Allen Poe… the bible never mentions him or his stories
Yes, sorry. I probably shouldn’t post while taking client calls….
Jim Tanger
I thought I saw your imaginary god in a cow turd yesterday. Does this prove it exists? Can you separate that cow turd impression from the imaginary thing? Are you a insane religious moron who believes in abject nonsense and yet cannot show us his god? Let’s see your god thing.
Since the current theory of evolution is the only way we have of explaining life according to chemistry and physics, it is absolutely inevitable that every other scientific discipline is under attack from these yutzes.
Ultimately, as physicists are only too happy to point out, all the science disciplines ultimately come down to physics. Say that physics isn’t responsible for what is best known to us, life, and you’re saying that physics is simply something that happens in special cases, or perhaps, when we like it to happen.
And sorry, that’s absolute nonsense.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
@106: The bible also doesn’t mention you. Do you exist?
@76 above…
“This is amusing. It’s almost like an inquisition where the faithful are presented with a heretic then proceed to take him apart. In this case the heretics are presented with the faithful. Poetic justice?”
Sort of. Some Crucial differences, though, we rationalist nonbelievers are merely using ridicule and reason; If the shoe was on the other foot, well, the history of medieval religious torture is known all too well. Nobody here going to tie Jim to a stake and set it alight, either, or try to stone him to death or have him beheaded. Religious folk have been historically known to do that.
I think Jim doesn’t really believe this crap, he’s just having fun pushing buttons and yanking chains like any other internet Troll.
None of us are in the bible. Ladies and gentlemen, we are floating in space.
your not reading the right bible then… book of TIMothy? when has anyone read a book of edgar haha, that y! you should read the bible becasue God told moses to right it, but he wrote it wrong and God NOs all! and he knew that it was going to keep getting messesd up so he wrote it wrong on purpose first and then opne day it will keep getting changed until the last day of earth and on that day someone will change the final piece and i will be in it, no poe and no Kobra commandoS! maybe GI JOE but i havent read the finished bible yet… anyways when you know your moms gonna tell you not to where your favorite pants because they are ripped you where the pants that you dont want to that are even more ripped because she will say NO put some other pants on and you say awwww man butyou really want to where the otheers and thats why God made the bibel wrong first!
Jim Tanger alias Tim Janger
I cannot find your name on the roster of the religious insane. Does that mean you don’t exist?
Your imaginary god is imaginary shit. Why don’t you have it come down and beat the shit out of us ridiculing atheists? Bet you can’t do it, eh, moron? Your god is a mess of deranged neurons infesting your insane brain into dementia. You are insane but don’t know it, and neither does your god. A shit god in a shit brain. Now does this rate retribution from your vengeful shit god? Moron.
Tidbits from the Texas Republican Party Platform
State Board of Education conservative members ran on the Republician ticket. The looney ideas they have are party sponsored.
http://www.texasgop.org/site/PageServer?pagename=What_We_Believe
Sex Education – We recognize parental responsibility and authority regarding sex education. We support policies that mandate parental notification and consent before any sex education program is presented to their child. Parents must be given an opportunity to review the material prior to giving their consent. We oppose any sex education other than abstinence until heterosexual marriage.
Theories of Origin – We support objective teaching and equal treatment of strengths and weaknesses of scientific theories, including Intelligent Design. We believe theories of life origins and environmental theories should be taught as scientific theory, not scientific law. Teachers and students should be able to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of these theories openly and without fear of retribution or discrimination of any kind.
U.S. Department of Education – The Federal Government has no constitutional jurisdiction over education. We call for abolition of the U. S. Department of Education and prohibition of transfer of any of its functions to any other agency.
Poe failure.
Nobody, and I mean nobody is that stupid.
I seem to remember another way around the age of the universe is to postulate that the speed of light was infinite at the beginning and has been slowing down ever since.
Doesn’t work. The change in speed would have red-shifted the light into invisibility.
On the contrary, we know very well the beauty of life and the world — without God.
I say we have another open thread for Jim “Off Tangent” Tanger. We don’t care what you believe, jack-off, we just want to keep the discussion relevant.
re 117:
Well, maybe not infinite, but much faster than it is now. I think you can fiddle with it enough to fit the distances and redshifts we see now into a 6000 year age of the universe. [Actually, I think that they think they can fiddle with it enough to fit. Maybe it can’t be done; I haven’t tried working it out, ’cause it just ain’t worth the time]
You don’t even need to be a scientist to answer that one. Please explain how your God was formed. It’s certainly plausible that a process that could create an infallible God, could create the universe. Next stupid question.
Exactly. The science standards say you need to teach theories of evolution of the universe? Well that’s going to be difficult, since there aren’t any.
Since you’re advocating creationism, let me take a stab at that for you. For the same reason you believe anything else; because it says so in a book, and someone smarter than you is reading it out load for you. You’re gullible, ignorant and lazy, and you have little need for critical thinking. You should accept something as questionable and unproven as the Big Bang theory because it describes natural phenomenon. When you find a snake that can speak perfect English without a lisp, we’ll get back to you on the creationism thing.
How Fucking Convenient
Assuming no Poe, what kind of logic is this? Asshole.
at #116
Ha you think you know so much, you will be laughing but in a bad way… like crying mostly. you brain is far to belittled to comprehend, youve never even touched a star because its a hole can you a hole nope! and you cant touch lite either… cant touch dis oooh ohhohoohhh ohhoh oh…. see you have no idea and i pray you
Tim Deranger
Your ‘bullshit”, er, bible is a screed of the most vile filth written by the deranged and decrepit minds that religion has produced, and is used as toilet paper in many huts on hiking trails throughout the world. I would not use it for such a purpose, so as not to defoul my natural function with the deranged droppings of shit minds. god is your shit, and you both will be forever linked to the byproduct of natural excretion.
Actually, biological processes were, in part, involved in the creation of the Grand Canyon (Kaibab Limestone, etc.). So, just like a stopped clock; a creationist can be right every now and then.
I know this is slightly off topic, but I just discovered the Bible has a Facebook page! If you have a chance you should take a look at the discussion boards. They are truly terrifying! Here is the link: http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Bible/42489724107
I look forward to seeing lively debates about the Yahweh hypothesis, the Odin hypothesis, the Brahma hypothesis, etc. Perhaps the kiddies will draw useful conclusions from this exercise.
I think most of us here know very well [the beauty of [[life and the world] without dog]].
@ Holbach
atheists are so angry… see no god no peace (told you) i dont want to hurt you but you seem to maybe your head will explodes… Ha then i am hurting your little atheist brain (to small to hold all my knowledge thats why its blwing up) myabe you shouldnt have such an open mind letting all that stupid stuff in, God gives memroy chip upgrades in essence you know a lot more when you accept him into your soul because you can store stuff outside of you… but your the dumm and cant comprehend so ill stop telling you stuff before your nose starts to bleads. HAHA need a tissue (for the crying and the bloody nose i gave you BAM almost like i punched you in the face… but really… God did!
The answer to this problem: http://imgur.com/H37H9.jpg
All a highschool student needs to know about the Big Bang in one simple cartoon:
http://xkcd.com/54/
Then why does he let bad things happen!?!?
Is it because we don’t send him enough offerings of calamari?
Do you mean…..God?
Now ignoring the perfectly Poe-ish bad sentence formation, as well as the fact that I do believe Tanger is an absolute Poe, I would point out to anyone who may be naive that the priest who thought up the Big Bang was opposed to its use by the Church to try to show that god exists. He wrote to the Pope to say that it was science, nothing to do with “proving god” or any such thing. From a short Google search, I found this purported excerpt from Lemaitre’s letter:
A priest he was, however he had no illusions about the Big Bang demonstrating that religion is the answer to cosmology.
Again, I don’t think Tanger’s doing anything but toying with Pharyngula, yet he could still put across the wrong idea regarding Lemaitre and his utter lack of importation of religion into the Big Bang. No doubt Lemaitre was concerned about its acceptance if it were closely identified with religion, but there’s no indication that he considered religious interpretations of the Big Bang to add anything to science.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
Good grief! The stoopid is strong with this one.
WTF? Tim you Poed us already.
Quit already.
I’m am greatly amused by this thread, but say why for fear of ruining it.
I thought I already had, but apparently not.
POE, past tense POED
Ah, in this thread I see POEDic Justice!
But the ToE doesn’t actually explain the formation of the rock (unless you want to assert that it does by proxy because it explains the evolution of the organisms that precipiate the CaCO3, which I’m fine with).
Not only that, but I think volumetrically, most limestone is formed from the accumulation of parts and skeletons of sea critters. The actual process of particle settling isn’t a biological one, even though some oolite formation can be partly. So I guess I would say, sort of yes. Maybe the creationist clock is correct once a week?
Tim Deranger @131
I’m still waiting for your god and the nose bleed, moron. You will bleed from your rectum, and that will be your god. How does it feel to be shit on and not having your imaginary god do a damn thing about it? We are waiting, laughing, and ridiculing you and your god. Come on, let’s see the power of your shit god. Bring it down! I am not of the persuasion to philosophize and quote the shit bible in combatting religious morons like yourself. No, right to the jugular with abject ridicule and mockery. If I was your shit god and heard blasphemy like this, I would descend and mop the floor with these deniers of my shit name. How come this is not happening? You worthless mess of evolution.
“Did you know that pigeons can modify the behavior of lab technicians simply by refusing to eat corn pellets?”
-Lilly Tomlin
Think about it.
I wouldn’t worry about this. If a teacher insists on teaching about talking snakes and biblical genealogies, they can still be fired.
Only got to post #52 in this thread but I’ve got to say that in all the time I’ve been reading Pharyngula and loads of other blogs, that post was the barmiest most bonkers pile of convoluted claptrap I’ve ever read. Well done, Jim/Tim!
If God punched you in the face right now then you would know he was reaal, and then you would be all please mr ghost man im so sorry and he would have to forgive you… but if he lets you go about your biz and then a potato growing in a tree falls down hits you in the face when you walk under it amd breaks your nose you will be all oooooh im skeptically crying about my hurt face… and then you still go to hell HAHA! I declare God the winner for not having a stupid na,e lie you
You people are so out of touch with the one TRUE way that Creation happened.
Bumba is the true Creator and spewer of Holiness.
If you can handle the Truth, look here:
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/b/bumba.html
Oh. Sorry, Voice 0’Reason. Didn’t see you there.
(heh)
Rev BDC: Indeed, but shhhh!
Kobra #100 – Ah, that explains it. Nice one, Tim!
Holbach: Tim Janger is a spook of Jim Tanger. Please review comments 1 through 36.
Funny how people keep talking at and about the troll who has left 100 posts and a couple of hours earlier.
– read the comment thread before responding to a troll
– pay attention to tell real trolls and poes who jump on the bandwagon apart
It’s really not that hard. If you can’t do that, get some sleep.
grrr
Jim Deranger @ 146
Here I am, real as can be, waiting for something from a deranged mind to do me real harm, and yet it will not transpire. What is the matter? Perhaps you are not praying hard enough to your ghost god to do me in and prove that it exists. Potatoes don’t grow on trees, moron, but you definitely have one in your head that has replaced your brain as the cognitive symbol. If you had half a brain you would be lopsided, but this still would not make you half deranged in compensation. Perhaps a frontal lobotomy will excise your potato god from your skull and you can still be exhibited at the Deranged Institute as a victim of religious rot. You are insane but don’t know it, and you can thank your imaginary god for your condition.
Amen. And that’s why we love you, too, PZ.
?
BAM! trap set and you fell right in! instead of refuting that trees don’t grow potatoes you said potatoes don’t grow on trees! thus proving that you don’t know anything because you are basically saying that Trees can grow Potatoes (which they can if God made them since he can do anything)— which proves that you actually believe God and its just like i said al along… atheists believe in god they just hate him. Holbach next time you are eating a potatoe you will think of me… if your brain doesnt hemorage first… boil em mash em stick em in a stew…
@ #25
Tangier:
Felix: It’s not always obvious who’s who especially when poes are known for changing their names and “sockpuppeting” etc. It wasn’t immediately obvious that Tim wasn’t Jim (and I’m still not entirely sure he isn’t), and I’m still unsure whether Tim is deliberately trying to be funny or a deadly serious but immature nutter. Not that I care either way, it’s still funny.
And Felix: lighten up.
Watchman @ 151
Yes, I know he is using two names, and this is why I name him Jim Deranger, to give him the recognition he deserves.
And Holbach too.
OK… im tired of playing around… I am Tim Janger
Barbara Cargill’s “Science camp”
Though honestly there’s little on that site that details what they actually teach, but there is lots of God though. There are links to the ID site kids4truth.com though. Guess what “truth” that is?
This is from Teachthemscience.org
For reals? I enjoyed that a lot.
And so’s Holbach’s wife.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
holy shit that’s a lot of thoughs
Rev. BDC: Methodist IDiots? I thought they were mostly about jumble sales and grape juice and found talking about religion kind of embarrassing.
Darling Jim tells us:
Golly!! What kind of loco weed are you on, Jim? Maybe you could market it and earn enough to buy out all those right-thinking atheists you dislike so much. Or at least use some more so we can all benefit from the relief that oblivion will bring to you.
On a technical note: this box you’re putting the universe into, which way is “outside”, and how is that different from “underneath”? Is heaven on five sides and hell only on one? Is the box even cuboid or do you have some other shape in mind? Do you even have a mind?
Now in Texas….. it saith in the Bible that the laws of physics were changed after ye fludde, when the rainbow was made as a sign…. Even friar Roger Bacon worked out that anyone can make a rainbow, but guess they’ll demand creationist optics in physics classes. Maybe it’s a sign that the Bible is myth and not mere history, only Martin Luther got it all wrong when he declared that the Bible should be read literally.
Lambert, if you are actually Holbach, well done, but that’s probably enough for now. Otherwise, that was “Tim”, a parody of Jim.
Tim Deranger @ 157
Are you insane and on the loose? Do you need assistance for transport to the lobotomy center for decapitation of that religious infestation sitting on your shoulders?
I have to admit that you are the most deranged cretin I have come across to date, and though there are millions like you, the moniker of abject insanity rightfully is claimed for you. Congratulations for being able to exhibit all that religious insanity imposes on the feeble and useless brain. And to think that this is all accomplished by an irrational idea that has mushroomed into the pernicious pox of religion. You will live and die afflicted by this insanity, and when you die your imaginary god dies with you. The worms know nothing of this.
What, now?
Pretty sure “Jim Tanger” is an actual idiot.
As for the rest, I’m mightily confused.
Fortunately, I don’t care.
That is not my post at 162
Yeah honestly I don’t know much about Methodists other than that there are a lot of them in Texas or at least I assume there are being that Southern Methodist University is in Dallas.
Matt Heath #167:
Having attended and worked for a Methodist church, I can tell you that the United Methodist church is almost as diverse of opinion as Christianity as a whole. We’ve got fundie whackaloons, quasi-Unitarians, and pretty much everything in between. I think it’s the tofu church – it takes on the flavor of whatever it’s around. In Texas, Methodists are pretty much Baptists. In Michigan, where I live, Methodists are generally relatively sane mainliners.
My Texas SBOE member is Cynthia Dunbar. She’s matched Cargill’s level of assault on Establishment. As I promised her by email during the proceedings a couple of weeks ago, I’ll be actively working to make sure she loses her post as soon as possible.
I’ve voted conservative for almost my entire voting life, but the SBOE’s actions have convinced me that I cannot support conservatives any longer; I won’t shrug off this betrayal.
We must deny leadership to those who can’t distinguish reality from faith. That’s a modern world necessity.
chancelikely: Thanks. I went to a Methodist church in England for a couple of years as a kid. They are known in England for being fairly liberal on social issues and very committed to helping the poor. It’s quipped that the founding of the Labour Party owed more to Methodism than Marxism. I guess they mutated to fill various different niches when they crossed the Atlantic.
Ok, for my $5 Jim Tanger is one of us and just wants to have fun. It’s a Poe variation and only mildly amusing.
Jim’s doppleganger, Tim Janger, is way more funny. That stuff has to be difficult to write. What I haven’t decided yet is whether or not it’s the same person. If it is the same, his second persona is much better. If they are two different people then Jim needs to learn from Tim.
As for Texas: Texas sucks. I had thought that the worst two days of my life were the days I spent driving across I-10 from New Mexico to Louisianna but then I was stationed in San Angelo (Goodfellow AFB) for 3 months with a side trip to Midland-Odessa. I still have nightmares. Give Texas to the creationists, it’s no great loss.
#65 Arrrghh! Stupid typing fingers:
What I meant: “What’s next? Discussing estimates for the speed of light in a vacuum? Oh wait, they have to fudge that too to get light across a 14 billion year old **universe.** Or light has to be fabricated in transit from faux stars in distant galaxies.”
sigh
Where are you from?
Tim Janger/Holbach @ # 157: … you said potatoes don’t grow on trees!
But some of them do.
@Die #179
Proposal refused.
I grew up the son of a Methodist minister. There is a sharp dividing line (politically, philosophically, geographically) between the northern and southern Methodists. In southern Colorado where I grew up, two towns 30 miles apart were split between the two types. The southern version was (is?) much more conservative – more like baptists. They didn’t allow drinking; frowned on dancing; etc. The northern ones and British (as per 178) are much more interested in helping others.
KI @ 33: William S Burroughs once imagined a genetically modified virus … as soon as the person thought “I am absolutely right” the virus would become active and kill off the certaintist. Anyone out there capable of creating this?
Well, I would volunteer… Except, you see, the minute I was sure it was ready and it did exactly what I wanted it to, *poof*.
I’ve been following the weird arguments between the people who may or may not be all the same person. Is there a way to see what email address or IP address they are posting from? I would be very interested in how tangled this web is, although I don’t think it would be smart to post the email address. IP address posting with name could eliminate sock puppeting for the most part. Either way I do not think that Tim and Jim are the same person but I’m not sure about Holbach.
PZ can see all that.
the earth *is* 6000 yrs old, as measured by god’s clock that exists outside space (but not time!). on our clocks, the earth looks 4.5 billion years old! but how did he do this? he made the speed of light different at the beginning when he created Maxwell’s equations, but changed it to 3e8 m/s recently when cosmologists started geting uppity!!! here is the PROOF!!
time dilation says that
t’=t[1-(v/c)^2]^0.5
t is the time elapsed on earth, t’ is god’s time, presumably on a nice rolex. v is the orbital velocity of earth, which is 2.98e4 m/s.
if you solve for c and plug in t=6000 yr t’=4.5 billion years and v=2.98e4 m/s you get
c=-4i cm/s
you see???? when god made the heavens the speed of light was only 4 centimeters per second! and it was imaginary!!!! and negative!!!! this is the only way to have the apparent age of earth be 4.5 billion yrs when the bible says it is only 6000 yrs!!!
this proof, using my technique of irreproducible complex analysis, is in agreement with Intelligent Design which uses irreducible complexity (which sounds kinda the same.)
A couple of weeks ago I saw my cousin who I’ve always looked up to. She told me she’s really into creationism, and all the science that proves the world is only 6,000 years old.
I don’t know how I was able to keep a straight face. Maybe it was because I was so shocked that she could say such a thing.
Irreproducible Complex Analysis FTW!
rob@188: I’ve seen that argument done for real.
nice try rob… but you cant just make up your own crap and say God did it, its clearly not written yet but from what God tells me light wasnt a different speed but it accelerates really slowly, so its like an old pickup truck takes a while to get going, but now its at termianl velociraptor and it wont be getting any fster and light exists in alternator so when you turn on a flash light the ligt has already been accelernominated to maximum exposure when your flashlight pulls it from subspace to be ejected… its all very scientific and i can see that you are really interested. if you are willing to wait about 17 more years it should be published in the new bible but who nows when that will happen because? gods time is so crazy
“They discovered that if a woman should speak inside of a holy building that she should be stoned.”
Male or female, being stoned would help make the holy literature seem less fictional if nothing else.
rob @ 188, and Tim Deranger @ 188
The idiot calling the moron insane, and both rejected by their imaginary god. Is this really a Science blog, or an example of a slide toward wackaroo?
just because you dont understand doesnt give you the right to call it names! read a science book fro cryin out loud? and i didnt type 188… you should read a mathbook too because they have numbers in them (even more than regular books) one time in highschool my math book didnt have numbered pages… i thought that was weird but nobody else had numbered pages either it made homework very difficult because you had to count from the begining to ind the right page snd one times i did the worng pages and i got failed because she said i should be able to count if i am to be in highschhool math but it turns out she was wrong and she still thinks she write… but she will find out soonorlater JUDGEMTNE!
Why have I been within 20m of lightning strikes TWICE but never hit? Does God have bad aim? Need glasses maybe? Perhaps I’m a good insulator? Maybe I was born with the Improved Evasion feat and made my reflex save twice?
Or maybe I should just get inside quicker when a thunderstorm comes up.
The continuing nonsense in Texas had me thinking that the U.S. really needs national education standards for science to keep this sort of thing in check. Then I realized that wackaloons can and have taken over the federal government! ::shudder:
sigh
I’m actually really enjoying Tim’s posts
To be honest, i don’t know what i find worse.
Tim’s stupid attempt at trolling, of his incredible mangling of the english language.
urg.
Any Calvinist knows it’s because you’re predestined to be a believer before you die.
How much unevidenced speculation do theologians have to put out before you will understand the truth?
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
i thought it was obvious, even with eyes watering and sides hurting. the swapped initials gave it away. comedic genius!
but points were lost when puppeteer started “ranting” back. unless that was a reverse sockpuppet ..?
“and it was imaginary!!!! and negative!!!!”
er, imaginary numbers are neither positive nor negative. But, the number -4i can be perceived as a vector, extending from the origin (God, in your argument) downward in the plane – downward toward his creation, earth – and by extension, us.
It is telling, however, that not only is the “solution” to your derivation a complex number, it
is a complex number that lacks a real component – “purely imaginary”.
Coincidence? I think not.
im having a hard time figurneing it our myself, but i made photocopies and can recall who is when i made tehm. if you need evidence they harry knuckles are available sometime next week. but honestly what you call ranting is something of i know not waht? i wish you would elaborate on hwo they do? i almost have hurt feelings with lossage of points i hope i win… but i really dont know why
^the
*sigh*
Jim Tanger declared,
Is there anything else your god idea cannot do? I would like to know your god idea as you do. Please provide a list of what it cannot do, except if the list is very long, don’t bother. If you don’t answer I will assume the the list of things that your god idea cannot do is indeed very long.
I think it’s pretty clear that Jim Tanger is the real deal, and Tim Janger is a poe. A spoof of Tanger. Sorry, Holbach, I typoed “spook” when I meant “spoof”. My bad.
HI PATRICIA & EVAN!! HEHE I LOVE YOU!>
I say we throw all of the *im *angers in the pond and see which ones float.
Well, I’m pretty sure one of ‘em turned me into a newt.
Matt Heath:
where was it done for real? i know some cosmologists speculate that the speed of light was greater at some point early in the start of the universe, in order to explain the horizon problem. (João Magueijo’s book: Faster Than The Speed of Light: The Story of a Scientific Speculation)
is that what you referred to?
Tim Janger comment 192: LOL
Tim Janger @192:
Give that man a molly…that’s the most beautiful parody I’ve ever seen. If I could I would marry that parody, have sex with it, and have lots of little parodies.
@Dean #203
yeah, sorry, i should have written
c=4exp(-pi/2) cm/s
It certainly has been amusing to see “Tim Janger” not only perform the most effective neutralization of a creationist troll ever, but also thoroughly confound that wretch Holbach, and catch quite a few other unobservants in his/her net as well. And whoever posted #162, that was sheer genius.
but points were lost when puppeteer started “ranting” back. unless that was a reverse sockpuppet ..?
An illustration of the (subversive) genius of #162. Hint to skyotter and Matt Heath: the “Posted by:” line at scienceblogs is not authenticated. Beware of phishing schemes — you folks are particularly vulnerable.
Either way I do not think that Tim and Jim are the same person but I’m not sure about Holbach.
They’re all different people; believe it or not, it’s possible to make a confident judgment without knowing IP addresses. What’s harder to tell is whether the author of #162 is TJ — probably not. It certainly isn’t Holbach, and it’s not likely to be JT.
PZ just report on the Choice thread that Jim and Tim have the same IP address. Poes.
nothing’s sacred @ 214
Perhaps we should run a side show here to amuse morons like you instead of maintaining some semblance of sensible commenting. Perhaps my commnets are a little too forceful for you, and so you react with calling me a wretch when I counter the insane crap being offered. I don’t see any comments from you on the whole thread but just the one directed at me. You are a gutless wretch.
Am I supposed to be flattered by that?
Piss off Tim/Jim.
Here, creationists, perhaps you can swallow the Big Bang Theory if we phrase it in more friendly-sounding terms:
In the beginning, there was nothing.
(Or at least, there was everything, but it was in a space so tiny it was almost like there was nothing.)
…
Then it exploded.
Rob: OK, not exactly that argument (the variable speed of light of thing) but I have seen YEC creationists (just at crazy websites) trying to use relativity to get around the age of the stars. IIRC they have the Earth accelerate wildly for a while and use a twin paradox effect to say that in out frame of reference the Earth is Bible old but that the stars have aged much more. Something like that.
@Matt Heath:
i gotta check out the crazy YEC sites then, and see how they mangle things. sounds like they don’t really understand relativity. i would like to see how they make the earth accelerate. maybe god attached a huge v-8 and drove it around a bit?
thnx!
what up yalls? to clarify i am responsible for #162 “OK… im tired of playing around… I am Tim Janger” because i was in fact posting… and i am Tim Janger, so i was not lying… i told you right there who i was… i will give you another hint at my secret identity… I made a guess as to who may be the culprits (but it doesnt matter because my “real” screenname wasnt invented until after TJ) in this thread! OMG and Holbach… God is still going to hit you in the nose with a potatoe
plonk
The hypothesis that an “explosion” of space-time out of “nothingness” is responsible for the origin of the universe is infinitely preferable and satisfying to the notion it sprang into being on the whim of an exceedingly dull mental fabrication arbitrarily invested with all sorts of omni-attributes. (Especially those that are personally aimed at the fantasizer, who may be characterized as a frightened little child who desperately needs to cope with the grown-up idea and responsibility that comes with the knowledge of death).
If you really want to drive folks like Jimmy Tanger crazy, you could point out to them that, from the viewpoint of particles of light(photons) or light waves, the universe has no age or spatial extension at all.
That’s right, Jimmy boy, it all depends on your viewpoint, specifically, how fast you happen to be moving with respect to other things you are looking at. For all particles with zero rest mass, the universe isn’t a day over 10^-43 second old, and has zero spatial dimensions in the direction of travel. But don’t lose any sleep over it. Photons are “eternal” in their timelessness. (They’re never really “there” at any point along what you perceive to be their travels, you know)
Yet material particles (with non-zero rest mass) can move at quite a clip too: every time matter falls into a black hole, they go back to that horrible “nothingness” that gives you such a shit-fit. (Where would existence be without non-existence, in some ineluctable way beyond our current powers of comprehension, to provide the contrasting frame? Hey, wait! Maybe that’s it! “God” is the perfect frame for existence, right? Well, I expect even you might still be able to add 1+1…)
Don’t worry. You see, it’s all relative. Things that lie beyond our observable horizon, whether it is the OBSERVED cosmic horizon or the even horizon of a localized black hole draining material away, simply do not exist in our universe. That’s a perfectly legitimate justification for the characterization of “nothingness”. Whether this is caused by velocity away from us or by gravitational gradient matters not a all.
Special & General Relativity, in combo with Quantum Physics. And it’s all there in NATURE to be independently verified, if you care to take a look. Try it, if you think you’ve got the guts. That’s science, son. (A word of caution: you may not necessarily like what you find…but if you do it often enough, you’ll get used to it. Hey, you can’t fault your “creator” for arranging things the way they are…can you?)
What you can’t see can’t inform you, and doesn’t exist, and what you don’t know shouldn’t bother you. But not admitting that you “don’t know” (as scientists do routinely) in favor of making something up you pretend “explains everything” is worse than explaining nothing.
That’s not merely being lazy. It’s downright sleazy.
rob I’m not sure if this is guy I came across before but a (Jewish) biblical literalist tying everything trying to square the circle using relativity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Schroeder
http://www.aish.com/societyWork/sciencenature/Age_of_the_Universe.asp
He’s actually trained a physicist so he’s probably made the numbers work (give or take some crazy assumptions)
No, he did not. Read it again. Tim, you started out funny and took it too far. Now you’re a dick.
I think i was always funny, in a dickish way…
Timmy/Jimmy: In my opinion your about as funny as a stubbed toe.
Har har har. You crack yourself up, don’t you?
But I’ll bet you aren’t nearly as capable of getting over yourself as intense pain can.
FWIW, as long as people were arguing earnestly with an obvious parody, it made me laugh.
I truly feel for Holbach, who is clearly mentally ill.
PZ just report on the Choice thread that Jim and Tim have the same IP address.
Wrong.
Poes.
Jim yes, and a damn good one. Tim no — Poe’s Law refers to the difficulty of distinguishing between a fraudulent fundie and the real thing.