Allen MacNeill makes an interesting observation: those little eruptions of ID creationism on college campuses, the Idea Centers, all seem to be moribund, and he pronounces the college ID movement dead.
I quite agree. I think Intelligent Design as a whole is a zombie philosophy at this point — it’s dead, its brain is rotting, and it has no glamor or appeal to most people anymore. It’s still shuffling about, and it will continue to get mentioned now and then as people struggle to find some pretense of a non-religious motive for creationism, but really, we’re all just waiting for someone with a metaphorical shotgun to put it down with a metaphorical blast to its metaphorical head.
This is not to say that creationism is dead. It’s still thriving on college campuses. Look at all the openly religious campus organizations, like Intervarsity Christian Fellowship and various other faith organizations, and you’ll still find anti-evolution high on their agendas. The ID movement, though, is just a reeking nuisance.
“we’re all just waiting for someone with a metaphorical shotgun to put it down with a metaphorical blast to its metaphorical head.”
Can’t you use your cyber pistol?
Like, Marantha Christian Fellowship. Now those are crazies. But it helps that they also rail against Halloween, so at least some students know how fundamentalist they are, and don’t mistake their ID pamphlets for reality.
*pulls out metaphorical shotgun and fires it about 70 times*
can I haz cookie nao?
I’d laugh if the ID bastards weren’t so prevalent in Texas. They flourish here.
Even here, in the heart of the bible belt I rarely hear ID bandied about. Creationists in this part of the country just dismiss science all together. They want no part of it. They certainly aren’t going to try and discuss ideas within the realm of rationalism. Just the opposite.
Creationism has always been a walking corpse, it’s the same recycled arguments each one a precambrian bunny in their own mind and each one just highlighting their profound ignorance. A Left 4 Dead analogy might be appropriate:
I wonder what the new ID mutation will be? Maybe cpurpose particlesists.
I was actually in an Intervarsity chapter for 4 years and don’t recall ever hearing the words evolution, intelligent design, or creationism. I think they were far more concerned with social and racial justice.
Oh come on Kel, you really want to compare the ID bloggers to smokers? I think the “lalala I can’t hear you” argument from ignorance type fits better.
I’ma go out on a limb and assume they don’t get many science majors as members.
and I have to share this
http://friendlyatheist.com/7044/catholic-google/
I couldn’t think of any other type that suitably ropes in unsuspecting people.
The ID movement is on a very long “publication” hiatus, too. On top of failing to present any data refuting evolution or supporting ID in peer-reviewed scientific research papers, they have virtually no articles of any kind posted on the DI web site published after 2005.
That’s fine; at least creationism has some semblance of honesty when it proclaims the Earth was created by Jehovah (or Yahweh, or Elohim, or whatever minor cult deity he was back then) and not Allah, or vaguely Christian New Age Deist Deity We All Believe In But Call By Many Names, or whatever. It’s much better than ID, which makes ham-handed and dishonest attempts at religious inclusiveness.
Compare:
with:
“I wonder what the new ID mutation will be? Maybe cpurpose particlesists.”
I think it’s “cteach the weaknessesists.” Which is unsurprising. ID had two serious flaws: (1) it pretended to be a field of scientific study, but didn’t even bother to go through the motions of the scientific method; and (2) it was such an obvious sockpuppet for creationism that the IDers came out looking more dishonest than they already were. The only “value” (to creationists) of ID was the hope that it would survive legal challenges, but Dover put an end to that. (Not because it’s binding precedent anywhere else in the country — it’s not — but it was such a persuasive and blatant smackdown.)
So now creationists are taking their best talking point, the “let’s be fair and teach the controversy,” and dispensing with any attempt to offer a coherent alternative.
Creationism and so on never was fruitful. In fact, its association is with religious zealotry. It will only be as strong as that.
Don’t look on any bright side.
ID is only dead at this point becuase the media is fickle and gets bored easily with any puff “controversy” to dogpile onto.
It’ll come back from the dead at some point when the press-release regurgitating newsmedia tires of dead babies, that “wacky” shoe-throwing (ignoring the subsequent torture) and whatever pathetic human interest drek passes for news nowadays.
Either way, it’s not because the public is smarter and it’s not because the news is more interest in honesty, they just feel as if they’ve milked everything for all it’s worth in ratings until they realize that they can get people on both sides irate again.
I wish!
I think you’re right; the “Intelligent Design” movement has nothing to it which good old fashioned Creationism doesn’t have, and it lacks the Christian praise-and-worship benefits, which are the real draw. It was supposed to provide two things new for the believer: scientific respectability, and the sense that one was being a “bad boy” skeptic — asking forbidden questions, speaking Truth to Power, and sticking up for the Oppressed.
Without any real publications, experiments, or even theory, however, ID is not going to pass muster among the academic crowd. And the whole pseudo-skepticism thing then fails to take off without the scientific backing.
Creationism is far from dead. Like a zombie it has risen from the grave and is creeping back into society.
I grew up in a society that accepted evolution as a matter of fact in the same way that we accept the law of gravity.
OK, so we only understood the simplified version of evolution, dumbed down for we non biologists. I for one have been absolutely amazed beyond anything I would ever have expected since I started reading more about evolution (it’s far more beautiful and intellectually rewarding than anything any “good book” could ever reveal).
Actually, if we hadn’t taken evolution for granted when I was a kid, if the creationists had raised their ugly heads, then perhaps I would have read more about it when I was younger and the staggering amazingness of evolution would have prompted me to take up a career as a biologist rather than a software developer (I do still very much enjoy software development though).
When I was about 8 I was taught for a short time by a teacher who one day commented to me that “there is evidence that the Earth is only a few thousands years old”. At the time, being an arrogant little shit, I simply thought that he was a bit of an idiot and then thought no more about it. It took maybe 25 years before I realised the context of that stupid conversation (I’m guessing that he was some sort of happy clappy YEC plonker).
In 2000 I had my first ever encounter with someone who didn’t “believe” in evolution. I was living in South Africa at the time (a very religous country, I can assure you). For reasons that I can’t recall, the subject of evolution cropped up in general conversation and a young lady of 19 promptly announced that this was a disgusting idea, offended her religion, and that no way was she born to an ape!
I remember speaking to my partner about it on the phone the next day, we were both utterly dumbstruck that somebody (particularly somebody so young) would hold such bonkers views.
That was something of a turning point I think. I was in my early 30s and until then I’d never met anyone who would suggest that there was no such thing as evolution.
Incredible.
Since then I’ve met more and more people who either question evolution, or more often make strange statements about the origin of the universe.
These are perverse people in my opinion. It’s fine to question things, but what happened to “I don’t know”, eh?
I don’t know how the universe got started, I don’t know how life got started on our planet, I don’t know exactly how ancient creatures evolved into modern forms. You know what? I don’t know, but I don’t need to invent some supernatural dizziness to explain away that which I don’t know. I’d be happy to find out, though I am not a physicist nor a biologist and my own efforts take shape in different arenas, so “I don’t know” will have to do for now.
I have read books written by Dawkins, Hawking, Sagan, etc which open small windows into their understanding, but in all honesty I still “don’t know” (and nor do they, I suspect).
Yet in recent times I’ve met people who will opine ever more fanciful rationales for the existence of the universe, the origins of life, or denegration of evolution (“it’s only a theory” is oft heard, or “what good is half an eye?”).
Truly scary stuff. Yup, I am a bit worried. We seemed to have moved so far forward in our society, leaving these silly sky fairies and other nonsense behind, yet now there are otherwise intelligent people spouting utter nonsense with nothing more than their own lack of knowledge (and possibly some religous doctrine) to back them up.
And people wonder why I stand up to be heard? Because if I (and all of you) don’t do it then the religous freaks will subvert our society for the own sick purposes. That’s why.
Cheers.
Mark
Maybe a metaphorical Dick Cheaney?
ID has evolved into teaching the ‘strengths and weaknesses’ of evolution.
c’mon PZ please remain a little bit unbiased and just a bit fair.
ID’s brain IS NOT ROTTING… how could it be if it didn’t have one to start with… ok?
let’s keep this forum a bit balanced ok?
stop with the gross suppositions and give ID a tiny bit more airtime for them airheads demanding it…
it’s just polite for a happy monkey.
wishful thinking. it may be dead for now but i’m sure it’ll pop up here and there and try to do wreak its havoc somewhere down the line, when we let down our guards
I agree about creationism being far from dead… unfortunately we’ll always have nutcases like Ken Ham and Ray Comfort around (and I say we because this is an international problem, we Europeans suffer from it too, as do the Canadians and the Australians), but they only appeal to evangelical Christian audiences. The danger of ID was it reaching out to moderate, secular-minded people who didn’t know enough about science to know they were being fooled.
ID is on the way out, but it is being replaced by teaching the ‘strengths and weaknesses’ of evolution. On face value this seems quite a reasonable request, but the people who back this don’t give a damn about teaching strengths and weaknesses… all they care about is teaching lies to kids. Notice they’re not trying to push in legislature about teaching the strengths and weaknesses of gravity or electromagnetism. This all boils down to the fact that they can’t stand the notion that the human race isn’t as special as they think it is.
I’ve decided “Kampus Krusade for Khrist” is just a little too outdated-sounding in the Age of Obama, and we should help them come up with a fresh, yet equally historically ignorant name.
How does “Progressive Pogrom Posse” work, catchy enough for the hip kids?
When I was in college I took an oceanography course. There were no problems with wave mechanics, temperature-salinity structure, tides, currents, and the rest of physical oceanography. Then we got into marine biology. The professor uttered the word “evolution” and several students got on their horses and rode off in all directions. I was a naive 19 year old and honestly didn’t know that creationism was believed in by anyone not wearing bib overalls and smoking a corncob pipe.
The professor ended the controversy by saying: “You can believe anything you want, but to pass this course you will at least parrot back what I tell you about evolution.”
Um Mark? We’re the choir. Just go relax and try some eggnog with a little emphasis on the nog.
Creationism is here to stay because nothing says humanity like fairytales and superstition. The Intelligent Design, however, folks are having profound difficulty selling their wares as science and without a specific deity (Yahweh, don’cha know), it seems the religiotard creationists don’t want to stick to the ix-nay on the Od-gay part of the script.
As for the purpose and meaning of life: It’s up to you and the circumstances you find yourself in. It always has been. It always will be. The Universe doesn’t care if we live or die or even if we never existed. We find ourselves to be the only species (well, some of us) on the planet capable of stewardship and a coherent understanding of our impact upon our own and other species. When we’re long gone only the few domesticated animals we leave behind will care, and they’ll either die out or become feral.
My 2 cents – It’s more important to be ethical than succumb to the “moral” morass. You have to balance your own self-fulfillment with the happiness of those you love. There is no afterlife, so carpe diem if you can; if you can’t, you have to move forward as best you can. There are no talismans to ward off evil, no intervening gods to save you from harm and the only parts of you that lives on after you is your progeny, other’s memories of you and your reputation. Find an occupation that gives you satisfaction and hopefully brings out passion. Avoid unnecessary drama when you can and take a few chances every once in awhile. Choose reason and rationalism over superstition and dogma, you may not be buoyed up by false hope, but you’ll be intellectually superior.
We’ll all be food for worms soon enough. L’chaim!
I was always amused at the thought of “Idea Centers”, and what they could possibly find to talk about, ID being void of actual facts, concepts or any kind of originality. After the first couple meetings I imagine they would just kind of sit around and wonder what to talk about next. ID is an agenda not an intellectual endeavor.
devoid
Creationism is a symptom, not the cause. It has everything to do with politics and tribal identity. It has little to do with religion and nothing to do with science.
As for being dead, even geocentrism isn’t dead. 20% of the US population still thinks the sun orbits the earth. That number of 20% is a lower bound for what the population will believe, no matter how wrong it is or how many centuries it has been (400 years BTW), since, for example, Copernicus published his work.
Someday creationism will take its rightful place with the flat earth, geocentrism, Tinkerbell, and fairies in the garden with a minority of 20% of the population believing in it.
“I was always amused at the thought of “Idea Centers”, and what they could possibly find to talk about, ID being void of actual facts, concepts or any kind of originality”
Oh, I’m sure they have lots of interesting conversations about who the Intelligent Designer is, and how much the Designer hates people who use the genitals He designed in ways He does not approve of.
Tired of uncertainty and discord?
Would you like to talk to an octopus? http://tarvu.com/wiki/doku.php?id=oobu&DokuWiki=20821476e56f14f41c8a82c47eb07d16
Please join us. It is so easy to join! http://tarvu.com/
E.V. what’s wrong with preaching to the choir if Mark has something he wants to get off his chest?
@24: You misspelled “Happy Monkey”.
Also, Kel #6, I thought your L4D reference was very apt and funny. Well done.
Nothing wrong with it at all. It was intended to be more “I’m with ya” buddy” than admonishing. (It would have sounded more humorous in conversation). Sometimes the only people we express our dissatisfaction to is those of like minds – it’s safer and we get little strokes of affirmation. Occasionally you have to remind people to turn around and face the congregation. I still commiserated with him with my 2cents drone and drank a cup of nog, sans eggnog, to him.
ID will take a _long_ time to go away… Ideas are hard to kill, there’s always some idiot willing to take up the mantle.
Which raises an interesting question: What does an ID zombie say?
“Brains! We don’t want brains!”
Thank you, folks. I’m here all week…
I think that every time someone raises the issue to get ID taught in schools, there should be others arguing just as loud for their creationist myths to be taught:
FSM, Xenu, Rael, or any number of other silly things.
TDS’ John Oliver sums them up nicely:
The quote’s target was the M***********s who attacked Mumbai, but honestly, they’re not too different from the Creationists I’ve seen. The latter’s just a couple of Kalashnikovs short.
Actually, I’m dreading Xmas Day when I have to go see my wife’s family who are all creationists. Her niece’s husband’s step dad is a raving YE zealot who cannot carry on a conversation without quoting scripture. I like my in-laws (hate the step dad idiot) but it’s sometimes more than I can bear; and then there’s my mother and her newly revived Baptist zealotry. She’s 71 and going to Israel for the first time in March and
can’twon’t shut up about Jeebus, miracles and the KofH.In ten years, have you understood NOTHING I’ve said? – Charlie Wagner the Lying Moron
Of course he’s understood it, you stupid troll – he’s understood it’s complete crap. You know you’re not wanted here, so piss off.
Ryan (#8): I was heavily involved in an InterVarsity chapter during my college years, and I didn’t hear a peep about creationism either. My (now-defunct) chapter at South Carolina was almost completely autonomous, though, so if there was a creationist edict handed down from on high, it’s possible that we just never heard it.
I think you’re right about this, PZ. I’m not sure it’s good news, though.
With ID, Creationism was at least trying to appear like they were playing by the rules. The revivals of creationism and fundamental Christianity seems to be going back to their old attitude of “screw the rules”.
Yep, that GIGO works. your ideas are garbage in, garbage out.
Now buzz off like the banned troll you are.
Thanks, I’m trying now to expand it out and make a blog entry about it :P
I thought this was interesting:
Baraboo IDEA Club (academic affiliation not listed) (WI): no events and no content listed; statement of purpose states “… that the identity of the Designer is consistent with the God of the Bible“
I’ve been here for around 8 months and in that time I’ve understood NOTHING you have said. That’s because you write so completely incomprehensible.
It’s a festivus miracle!
“Strengths and weaknesses” are the new code words Christian theocrats use to get laws passed to dumb down biology classes. The Christian war against science education will not end until that death cult is eradicated.
Perhaps biology teachers should demand the teaching of the strengths and weaknesses of the Resurrection in Sunday school. Since Christians never stop attacking science, why shouldn’t scientists attack Christianity? The best defense is a good offense.
infidel! for ascribing what is clearly a Happy Monkey miracle to your blasphemous holiday you should be pelted with rotten bananas.
Banned troll iz banned 1 mor time. (heh,heh)
.. and from the smallest mustard seed ..
I think creationism is even stronger now (at least among core believers) than it was in years past. The creationist’s arguments are now entrenched in the fundamentalist mindset, and over the years, the so called “creationist scientists” have learned how to make their arguments sound scientific to the fundies, who are easily impressed by big words.
I have a relatives who think that THIS SITE is scientific. One of them showed it to me proudly in a “Take that Mr. Scientist” moment. I simply stared at the arguments–mostly trying to prove that the bible is a science book–in disbelief. I went through the list of claims (at least until I got tired and disgusted), and pointed out the silliness of the arguments, and but I doubt if anything took.
The fundies live in their own world, and they really don’t know how to apply even rudimentary logic. They also love the idea of fighting for jesus and being a martyr, and it’s a real character study to watch them work themselves into a righteous anger at scientists who teach evolution. Yes, indeedy, it’s a real character study.
Not if I beat you with the Festivus PoleTM during the Feats of Strength first!
Clearly your ‘Happy Monkey’ was just a made up thing. Festivus is a sacred tradition going back all the way to 1997.
“But out of that a new holiday was born: a Festivus for the rest of us!”- Seinfeld 9:10
tfagan
As I read these comments I am a little confused how any living thinking human being can believe evolution is true. In the last fifty years I have never read any proof of Macro-evolution. I have read of numerous attempts that were found to be in error and a large number that were examples of outright fraud. Macro-evolution ( the changing from one life form to another such as a hippopotamus to a whale..the usual speculation opined by evolutionists) has never been demonstrated scientifically. When all else fails the typical evolutionist falls back on time to solve the mysteries of life. Oh, if only we had enough time I could prove that elephants can fly.
Mutations in the numbers that would be required for macro-evolution has been shown to be impossible based on scientific probabilities. The fossils which were the evolutionists main argument for evolution for 150 years has been found to be totally fruitless even by evolutionists.
Even today no one has been able to demonstrate scientifically that three or four spontaneous helpful mutations can occur successfully. Two helpful mutations is the best that can be demonstrated to date. Tens of thousands of spontaneous helpful mutations would be required for macro-evolution to take place. And by the way many thousands more would be required to provide a mate.
There is no scientific evidence that evolution can through random mutation and survival of the fittest create information such as found in DNA and RNA.
Proteins, are the machines inside each and every cell that make life possible. Darwin’s evolution could not accidentally make even one protein in all of the billions of years the universe has existed. These are the machines that bring food to the cell, move waste out of the cell. Proteins create new machines using DNA information. Proteins repair or replace cells as necessary. There are billions times billions of cells in your body.
Evolution has fallen on hard times. Micro-evolution (variation within a species otherwise known as breeding) is the best that Darwin has to offer and we know now that the variation is already programmed inside the cell in the form of genes. There are limits to the variation within a species. For example, we cannot breed a dog to be as big as an elephant.
I guess evolutionists, Darwinists, evolutionary biologists and others after dedicating their lives to the fruitless study of evolution just can’t accept that evolution is no longer a valid theory. It is time to move on and let the school children learn the truth. It is time to stop using false propaganda to muddle children’s minds. It time to move on to bigger and better things. It should not require years and years to remove the brainwashing damage caused by religious Darwinists as is the case today.
BobC
You are right that there will never be an end to Christian theocrats until Christianity itself is eradicated, but I don’t see that day ever coming in our lifetimes.
The worst thing about ID/’strengths and weaknesses’ is how sly, underhanded, dishonest and misleading it all is. That is the danger. People who are ignorant about these guys real motives might come out in support of teaching ‘strengths and weaknesses’, and thus cripple science education in the US as well as elsewhere.
I rest my case
Blatant lie.
Two more blatant lies.
Aha, OEC.
Blatant lie.
SIWOTI!
RamblinDude@#55,& @#59
Sigh.
Point taken.
such as?
Oh, the comments of stuck in the mud know-nothing. Guess what dude. Theory of Evolution has few hundred thousand, if not several million scientific papers backing it up. Just like the Theory of Gravity, Theory of Relativity, Atomic Theory, Quantum Theory, Thermodynamics, and may other scientific “theories”. Here’s the thing, scientific theories require evidence to back them up, the more, the better. And some of them, including the Theory of Evolution, do not any papers showing the theory to be wrong.
Guess what, science ignores god and religion, and makes no person equal to a god, as all scientists are fallible. Including Darwin. So lets check the reality of “Darwinsim” being a religion. God-fail. Holy book-fail. Theology-fail (no holy book). Church-none. Tithes-none. Nope, fails the religion tests.
So if the Theory of Evolution isn’t right, there is a Nobel prize with your name on it if you write the scientific paper showing evolution wrong. Time for you to right that paper and submit it to journals like Science or Nature, or shut up and listen to your betters.
http://controversy.wearscience.com/img450/devil.gif
*facepalm*
What evidence specifically do you think is missing? We have seen natural selection, advantageous mutations and speciation. We have observed evolution in the 100 year time frame of knowing the theory. Then there’s the historical evidence: the fossil record, the genetic codes and genetic markers contained within. There’s the morphological similarities, the shared traits among different species. There’s the geographic spread of these similar species, which again coincides with the fossil record.
And all of this fits in with information from other disciplines, we see galaxies that are 13 billion light years away, there is a star in our own galaxy that is measured to be 13 billion years old. The age of the sun through star dating techniques matches with the age of the earth, the moon and meteorites done through several radiometric decay techniques.
So just what is missing in your mind?
(Y’know, looking at tfagan’s screed again carefully, it looks just a little too Edgar Allan, if you know what I mean)
It’s so hard to tell these days.
I considered it, but decided to give an answer just to keep in practice–it’s been a slow day.
Fixed it for you.
tfagan #57 wrote:
What have you read? Have you read any pro-evolution books? If so, which ones?
If not, we can give you suggestions. Until you understand what evolution is, you cannot know if — or why — it is wrong. Your descriptions of the “problems” sound as if they’ve been taken from creationist sources.
Go directly to the evolutionary biologists.
tfagan seems real to me.
I suspect it looks Poe-ish because all the creationists are beginning to sound the same and have the same arguments. That’s the idea, of course. That’s the plan: to turn them into a united front, an army of angry, ignorant people united by a cohesive misinformation campaign designed to get them all saying the same things and training them not to do any real fact checking or have any critical thinking skills.
Their arguments have been standardized, their doubts are formulaic, and it’s all driven into them relentlessly by the creationist material they circulate amongst themselves via the internet, pounding, pounding, pounding misinformation into their brains until up is down and black is white and “evolution is false.” It always reminds me of the Kimer Rouge. Or the Dalects maybe –“Destroy! Destroy! Destroy! . . .
Kimer = Khmer Rouge
tfagan crapped out that exact drivel on Ed Brayton’s blog – I’ve tried to post with the link but it’s been held up in moderation.
Anyway, I think he’s more of a drive-by than a Poe, ’cause he never responded to any of the numerous criticisms raised against his giant colander of an argument. And there were many, ’cause he’s a tool, even by religidiot creotard standards.
Just on the moderation thing: does anyone else find it odd that a link from a fellow Scienceblogger is held up while other links aren’t? Or is there a better explanation as to why? I know multiple links in a post can cause it to need approval, but I only included one in mine.
*Ahem*
Daleks say E-X-T-E-R-M-I-N-A-T-E.
As I read these comments I am a little confused how any living thinking human being can believe
evolutioncreationism is true.When all else fails the typical
evolutionistcreationist falls back ontimeinvisible sky wizard to solve the mysteries of life.First sentence true, second sentence doesn’t follow and is anyway false. We could breed dogs until they reached the size of elephants, if…oooh, but darn, I can’t mention exceedingly long extents of time?! A clever dodge, making the whole fucking point out of bounds a priori. But a dodge nevertheless. Wolves to dingos to toy chihuahuas and Saint Bernards took, what, tens? hundreds of thousands of years? Extrapolate to the tens of millions of years it took elephants to get to the size of elephants.
I do agree that elephants flying would be a much more difficult project, though.
There, all fixed
Oh yeah, LOL!
I always hated those things. Most irritating villains ever.
Wowbagger #73 wrote:
PZ has some sort of block on our links to Dispatches from the Culture Wars. A while back they had a fight, or series of them. Ed still links to Pharyngula, however, and comments on some of PZ’s good posts.
Since they met in person recently and there was evidently no blood spilt, I’d hoped that PZ would get around to removing the block, or whatever it is. Many times a blog entry from one will supplement or support the other, and it’s useful to be able to mention it and link.
What was that all about?
Was it during the framing wars?
IA! IA! Cthulhu tfagan!
OK, somebody had to say it.
Oh. Before my time I guess.
It is a bit inconvenient, and I doubt it affects just me, ’cause I know there are a few posters who spend time on both sites. In this case it’d be handy to see the evidence that tfagan is just the worst kind of drive-by troll.
Owlmirror #80:
I think it was before the framing wars. I forget the details, but my recollection is that, of the two, PZ was more wrong — but they were both going off and slinging around a lot of unnecessary invective.
They agree at least 90% of the time, on most issues. So whatever. My personal opinion is that PZ should just let it go. He may have done so already — in which case, the block is now pointless. And irritating. I’ve had entire posts eaten because I linked to Ed Brayton for a perfectly valid reason, and forgot, ooh, that’s naughty and forbidden.
for us newbies, what were the “framing wars”?
Do you suppose this will involve bonfires?
Fighting homosexuality as vital as saving rainforests – Pope
Pope Benedict said today that saving humanity from homosexual or transsexual behaviour was just as important as saving the rainforest from destruction.
“(The Church) should also protect man from the destruction of himself. A sort of ecology of man is needed,” the pontiff said in a holiday address to the Curia, the Vatican’s central administration.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1222/breaking57.htm
I just have to plug for Kent Hovind here, look at this:
http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=118
Hahahahah, It is the BEST ever. Oh my, but its scary.I cant believe things like this is allowed, I mean, cant you see what your society is like and cant you relate it to your religious foundations? Your not one of the most violent, dangerous and uneducated western countries out of random ‘chance”, are you? You need to stop this, You got Nuclear Weapons, and I am afraid that you will harm us people from civilized nations.
Please, do something, the ones that are educated, you need to stop this before you kill more innocent people, dont believe whatever your parents tell you, whatever your media is saying and TRAVEL, its not dangerous, and when you visit a superior nation, DO NOT BE AFRAID, but embrace, and try to improve your own backwards nation instead of returninng living in ignorance.
Please, I am afraid when reading things like this, you are a dangerous people.
Germaine
But Darleks have such wonderful poetry such as;
Daffodils, EXTERMINATE DAFFODILS!
“Evolution has fallen on hard times.”
WATERLOO!
The “framing wars” happened a couple years ago, when sciencebloggers Matt Nisbett and Chris Mooney wrote some posts about the importance of “framing” the evolution-creationism debate in terms which would appeal to the non-scientist. This perfectly reasonable idea began to formulate itself into a version of “hide the atheists,” and a lot of atheists got ticked off.
It’s still a big division: does evolution — or science in general — have anything to say about the existence of God? And, if so — and it’s not good — should those on the side of evolution keep quiet as a tactical decision?
PZ, of course, says yes, and no. Ed, I think, says no, and no. But I don’t think that was the break.
That’s because the YECs are, by definition, too stupid to keep shtum. It’s like a four year old child finding out what Daddy has got Mommy for her birthday: no matter how much Daddy says “don’t tell Mommy, it’ll spoil the surprise”, there’s no way in hell the kid can avoid letting the cat out of the bag.
#88 Rey Fox wrote:
It’s the imminent demise of evolution! Again!
And you’ve never seen anyone let a dogcat out of the bag, have you Mr Evilutionist? No, I didn’t think so! Evilution is a LIE. Ha! Praise Jebus!1!!!1!
@ Joel
To hell with the Pope. Why are we even taking advice regarding sexuality from a band of celibates?
#86 Germaine,
What a nauseatingly arrogant pantload of ignorant simplistic stereotypes. If your standard of clarity and refinement of thought, not to mention writing, is all that people from a “backward nation” can expect from a “superior nation”, they’d be better off at home — you are not a good advertisement.
That just makes feel all warm and smoochy all over. I am the equivalent to environmental destruction. Thanks to Ratzi, I feel more powerful than I actually am.
@ Janine, Vile Bitch
Well, at least “Pops” didn’t make an analogy with the Nazis, as the Prop 8 people did.
well d’uh, if I were him, I’d never mention the Nazis either, just in case. ;-)
Time is of the essence…
What shall we call an argument that defeats itself by pulling out the “destruction of rainforests” card?
This pope is unable to invoke godwin, lest his past bite him painfully in the ass.
Sastra – As it happens, the only time I ever tried to link to it from here was several months back when there was a post about you.
When even that can’t get through, there’s a problem. :)
Well at least we haven’t sunk so low as to recite Vogon poetry.
“That just makes feel all warm and smoochy all over. I am the equivalent to environmental destruction.”
Time to do some slash ‘n’ burn, eh? Eh? Nudge nudge?
Acceptance of evolution among US scientists runs around 99%. It is higher in Europe. Evidently you are confused enough to believe that the world’s scientists aren’t thinking beings. FWIW, these nonthinking beings brought you a world quite different from the Dark Ages and a life span that has increased 30 years in a century while feeding 6.7 billion people.
Your inability to read and think is not proof of anything. This is the Fallacy of Argumentium by Personal Insanity. Or in modern language, just because you are stupid, this proves nothing.
Another flat earther troll.
IIRC, it was over the “Blasphemy Challenge,” with PZ supporting it, and Ed saying it was childish and immature.
@ 99 wrote:This pope is unable to invoke godwin, lest his past bite him painfully in the ass.,
Sir, you owe me a mouth full of Bourbon, and a new keyboard.
That was funny!
Sorry Sman, no can do. That would make me an enabler, and that would be bad. I can offer you some coffee though, but I must warn you…I make it so strong that if you pour it out…it can stand up on its own.
I like my coffee so strong that it will put my britches on in the morning, and since we are on the dark side of the Sun… my enablers… well…
fine then, take your alcohol then, but I expect a monkey present in exchange. Can I have a baby cthultu please?
I mean,look at the proponentsists of ID that we get around here,there is a basic lack of spelling and grammer skills to start with,not even talking about reading comprehension and basic logical thinking.
So Im not surprised that their ” Idea Centers” would turn out to be stillborn,or dying.
Im surprised we even have ID around,it requires a certain,shall we say,susceptability in the general population,which exists in the US to a much larger degree than anywhere else.
Ive asked this here before,does anyone know any good books about the history of creationism in the USA?
y’know if the proponents of creationism and intelligent design are for having these subjects in the classroom,why not have science classes in church?
nothing flashy–a simple demonstation of Boyles Law or something like that.i mean it’s not as if the church property doesn’t have room.some of those religious businesses are huge.
@may
because science isn’t a religion. The ID movement is pushing off religion as science, so to get science in churches we would have to dishonestly make science look like religion…
@ 108 said: fine then, take your alcohol then, but I expect a monkey present in exchange. Can I have a baby cthultu please?
Sir, worship your ancestral overlord; and a Happy Monkey to you!
http://s207.photobucket.com/albums/bb259/soliussymbiosus/?action=view¤t=othoceras2.jpg
I’m REALLY bored and decided to look it up. Here,
The post is about a petition Richard Dawkins signed about wanting to eliminate all religious teaching for children. Brayton complained, Dawkins said he had read a different version and withdrew his name.
Apparently Brayton wasn’t diplomatic either. On his blog (which I’m not linking to for obvious reasons),
Yikes. Let’s hope these two have/will make up. Otherwise, just forget about it. I really don’t want to resurrect a two year old argument.
Hey, what does a Catholic Dalek say?
E-X-C-O-M-M-U-N-I-C-A-T-E!
“Pope Benedict said today that saving humanity from homosexual or transsexual behaviour was just as important as saving the rainforest from destruction.
“(The Church) should also protect man from the destruction of himself. A sort of ecology of man is needed,” the pontiff said in a holiday address to the Curia, the Vatican’s central administration.”
So, since (according to the fundies) the pope IS the antichrist, how is it that protestant fundies don’t drop their anti-gay stance when he says these things?
Doesn’t siding with the antichrist make baby jesus cry?
Religion. Not just insane, it’s batshit crazy.
Technically, it’s my fault; I asked the question. I was just curious why my comment got moderated. I hope I don’t have to explain to PZ why there are a whole bunch of worms wriggling and squirming around his site while I’m standing around, empty can in hand…
Heh. Everyone remebers different causes for PZ and Ed bickering.
I thought it was the Danish Mohamed cartoons. IIRC PZ (liberal crusader for the little guy) initially said they were an unwelcome attack by the strong on the weak. Ed (libertarian that is) though that this was Marxist-like bullshit, putting power relations and identity politics before free-speech rights.
I wasn’t around back then but, from what little I’ve read and what others have said, I don’t think there was one single cause to PZ and Brayton’s feud. People here have provided various disagreements between them and if you look at the quote I provided in #113 PZ says
Also, as Heath mentions, PZ’s liberal and Brayton is a libertarian. It’s hardly surprising there would be conflict between them.
tfagan@57 : “the changing from one life form to another such as a hippopotamus to a whale”
Ah, a different version of the cat to dog straw man mantra. Or a strawmantra if you like!
I can’t believe I missed that before! What a bad argument, I can’t believe that one still propagates. One species can’t change into another, that’s not evolution. It’s like they don’t understand what common descent even means.
Ok,since people were talking about Ed Brayton here before,and this is thread topic,it so happens he just linked to a nice sum-up of the current evolution of creationism in the US,here….
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-latest-face-of-creationism&sc=SA_20081212
Hey, what does a Catholic Dalek say?
E-X-C-O-M-M-U-N-I-C-A-T-E! – Quotidian Torture
Way back in 1968, shortly after the Papal encyclical anathematising contraception was issued, the British satirical magazine gave away a vinyl disc at Christmas, on which one item was a dalek voice announcing:
“I-AM-THE-POPE! YOU-WILL-OBEY!!!”
In Wrocław, Poland, there is a statue of Pope John XXIII in remarkably dalekoid pose. A picture of it is the first item retrieved by putting “Wroclaw pope statue” into google images, although the real thing is even more dalekoid in appearance than this photo makes it look.
Wolves to dingos to toy chihuahuas and Saint Bernards took, what, tens? hundreds of thousands of years? Sven DiMilo
IIRC, about 15,000 according to genetic studies, which also indicate a single domestication event in south-west Asia.
Me and ex visited the sole pure dingo breeder in Australia just before he died,to see if we wanted to buy one,he didnt have any puppies at the time,and after his death his dingos were either destroyed or given to zoos.
Ex also bred chihuahuas and chinese crested,and if you ever wanted to see evolution at work,if you breed dogs,its easy…
Did anyone have a look at the site ramblin dude at #55 linked?
I guarantee laughter, and lots of it.
Here it is again for those too lazy to scroll up:
http://www.sbea.mtu.edu/users/slstonge/Science.html
Yes. Teach the controversy, let the children decide.
Tfagan +1
As for he choir, here…
ID was a shot across the bow of the scientific establishment. Dig in your heals guys if you want. The choice is yours. You won’t be able to mask adaptation as a design engineer for long. By faith you beleive that nature is capable of engineering feats that man can’t hope to fully comprehend.
Evolutionism has many zealots, and skillful and imaginative writers. But, ID dismantles atheism and its popular creation story, “evolution”.
ID does so so completely and thoroughly that i don’t think even most of its proponents even realize. A truly elegant summation of all the best arguments that creationists have brought against evolution through the years.
You can hold on to your beloved natural creation stories if you want. But don’t shove them down everyone elses throats!
Wayne
Wayne is wearing a tin foil hat. Poor deluded little Wayne. Him has a wittle blog, yes him does! And it is full of fairy tales and wittle silly ideas. Run and play Wayne and let the adults talk; that a good boy!
Oohh, another alleged intellectual. But, can’t spell, doesn’t grasp what is and isn’t scientific, attempted lame ridicule. Yep, classic drive by troll. Wayne, any chance you will stay and try to discuss your religious ideas of creationism with us? I say religious, because they aren’t scientific.
And Wayne rows in to the midst of the Pharyngula pirate phleet in his leaky boat and pops of a pathetic shot.
The mighty Pharyngula pirate phleet loads its many monstrous cannons with facts and logic, takes aim and fires.
Let the one sided battle commence.
This is one reason why ID died. It is actually over 2,000 years old, from the ancient Greeks and predating xianity. It all that time, it went nowhere and accumulated exactly zero evidence.
The other reason is its adherents. I’ve never met a creationist who wasn’t uneducated, crazy, dishonest, or stupid and usually all four. Wayne obviously knows little about ID, xianity, or science which lets him babble without realizing how wrong it all is. Not that he would care, being dishonest as well, he could care less.
As one glaring example, evolution is science and has nothing to do with religions. Roughly half of all evolutionary biologists describe themselves as religious, mostly xian.
Do you feel the contempt that WAYNE has for nature? I mean if
manWAYNE, created by GOD in HIS image, can’t understand it then what can piddly little nature possibly accomplish?WAYNE, why do you hate nature so?
Wayne #126 wrote:
That’s a poor metaphor. Scientists, as a group, are always looking for something new, something unexpected, something different, so that they might help to change the current consensus in science, and advance our understanding further than it now is. That’s the ultimate goal.
So presenting them with an exciting bundle of evidence and argument would not be like launching war against them. On the contrary. It would be like dangling a piece of meat in front of a pack of hungry dogs. Fame, funding, and a new frontier.
The fact that the hungry dogs are ignoring the meat suggests there’s something seriously wrong with the meat. “Where’s the beef?” There is none, or they’d be all over it in a mad rush.
So don’t kid yourself. As a group, scientists — even atheist scientists — are far more committed to discovering something exciting and pursuing change, than they are to keeping their personal religious beliefs safe and staying where they are. You underestimate many things, including human greed and ambition.
“Hey, what does a Catholic Dalek say?
E-X-C-O-M-M-U-N-I-C-A-T-E!”
There is a large Amish community just south of here, and they recently excommunicated one of their young women. I don’t have the newspaper details handy, but I remember a major issue related to “too Mennonite” :0
No, from Wayne’s point of view, religion came first so any scientific evidence that refutes magical deities is considered hostile. It’s a war between empirical evidence and belief in an invisible SkyWizard™, and his miracle producing Jewish carpenter asexual son who left no archeological evidence other than a few anecdotes from friends, and all written decades after his death and magical ascension, without benefit of a spacesuit, to heaven.
Atta boy! Keep trying to reconcile science and religion Wayne. Those gaps are getting so small that actual empirical evidence of Yahweh’s butt will be exposed, since there will be no place left for him to hide.
Boy, how do creobots like Wayne expect us to take them seriously if they just do a drive by post. They need to stay and argue, and show us some cojones. Oh yeah, the problem is that they have no evidence to offer, so no cojones.
One measure of how dead ID is would be what is going on over at Uncommon Descent:
http://normdoering.blogspot.com/2008/12/too-stupid-to-educate-and-conscious.html
I see Casey Luskin got head planted in the comments section of the linked blog article. Nice.
E.V. @36
I’ve been “speaking to the congregation” since the 1980s.
I only very recently started “speaking to the choir”. I did think that it’d be somewhere to relax, though perhaps not.
But thanks for the thought.
Cheers.
Mark
Oh sure it is Mark. Just as long as the choir knows the congregation gets the brunt of it eventually.
I’ve already started to grit my teeth for xmas day with the extended family. Godders, one and all. ANd what’s worse was I was considered once to be the great hope of all the families to become an ordained minister. The truth set me free and now, even a couple of decades later, I have to suffer their credulous rants during holidays. I make sure I’m not around for pre-meal blessings and walk away at the first sign of religious discussions. Ahh, but they’re family.
Cheers!.
Mark, give them all “Misquoting Jesus” for Christmas! Or specially printed copies of “Of Myth and Men” by Robert M. Price, with little holly leaves in the margins.
thank God
and i mean that literally
i always thought that ID was a sophisticated way of saying that human ignorance was God and for a theist thats bordering on blasphemy
and of course, it’s sh*tty science