People are responding to my request to avoid stealing or damaging nativity scenes with the suggestion that adding to a nativity scene ought to be ok. Maybe so; note this fine Catalonian tradition and examples of reverent statuary that belong in your local religious display.
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
Nativity scenes are already tacky enough.
Yeah, I agree with Funnyguts @ 1.
Still…
Nah, I got nothin’.
Ew, gross. Although I think this may be a good use for that new Jesus piggy bank that’s coming my way.
Oh come on, leaving people’s speeches and displays as intended by the people making them is the appropriate course of action (if not without exception) in civil society. I’m not totally averse to a prank or two, certainly, but on the whole, one should just let others speak/display without unwanted or unwarranted intrusion.
That said, an addition is no grave offense.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
A better idea is to update the nativity scenes. They have long since gotten so trite as to be useless. Taking off on another thread, nativity scenes could be “reinterpreted” many ways.
I like the idea of using mythological figures and cartoon characters for the statues. The Teletubbies could be jesus, Tinkerbell could be an angel, dinosaurs could be the animals, and toss in some space aliens as onlookers.
An all cephalopod one would be nice too.
The Gordon Brown is pathetic, but the Ronaldinho is absolutely spot on. (Carla Bruni isn’t bad either.)
Can anyone persuade the maker to do a PZ?
You realize this is the Internet, right? People are going to take this to mean that it’s okay to put things in, on, or around nativity scenes which belond to other people.
Modifying someone’s nativity scene is a form of vandalism. Its no better than stealing it. Better to put up a counter display where possible on public property. Christians are well-known liars and cheats. We can’t win by stooping to their level.
That’s the way to go! No vandalism, no graffitis, just adding up nice little decorations!
Strange, but amusing. I’d love a gross of these to go around adding them to nativity scenes.
I agree with Glen @ #4.
Modifying the scene may not be theft, but it is certainly interfering with the owner’s expression.
As recommended on the previous thread, I think the right thing to do is to defend the theists right to put up their displays, and put up a counter display.
And of course, the concern troll is against the idea.
If something is stated publicly as a matter of debatable opinion, criticism is fair. Changing the original, be it in artistic form or other, without consent of the owner is not.
If anything, I would suggest creating alternative nativity scenes, as a test of blasphemy laws if you will, or just as a statement of amusement.
Just because nativity scenes are mostly not fenced off and guarded, it doesn’t mean they’re fair game for pranks or distortions. A nativity scene with cheap kitschy fgures may not be high art or considered artistic expression, but that is a matter of taste. I wouldn’t dream of sticking mustaches onto Giotto frescos just because I might not share the opinion of their message. Please have some manners, rights still tend to end where other people’s property begins.
Whether it’s ok under secular law to have such scenes on public grounds sponsored by local government is a different issue, and different secular countries have very different laws and practices.
Just because some people think it’s ok to insult and demonise unbelievers, to think freedom of speech and expression goes only one way, and to steal and remove unwelcome messages does not mean we have the right to retaliate in infantile ways.
Here’s one idea I would propose as an alternative display (any of you who are artisitically talented are free to produce this not very original idea): A display of Hell and eternal torture as a consequence of not accepting [figure X] as personal savior. Next to that, a display of [figure X] as the creator of Hell and eternal torture.
Well said, black wolf.
Catalonia tradition… to show that the famous people are “full of shit”? Literally an example of the French Phrase: Chaque un ses merde.
I’m guessing the Sun Sentinel didn’t put a picture of this one on its website because all hell would have broke loose, but here’s one of the pope:
http://www.caganer.com/product_info.php?products_id=151
I’m strongly in favor of leaving other people’s displays of whatever their favorite delusion is, alone.
After all, that’s what we ask of THEM: that they don’t meddle in our affairs, that they just simply leave us alone (when it comes to their religious beliefs).
WE don’t like it when an Atheist sign is taken from the Legislative Building in Olympia, Washington, NOR would we like it when they would add religious (or hateful, or distateful) content to it.
They don’t OWN the golden rule! We can adhere to it as well.
And, IMHO, to speak about this in terms of ‘fun’ or ‘ a prank’ is placing the whole idea on a VERY slippery slope!
This can’t end well….
I heard of this Catalonian tradition on an episode of QI. I always take anything said on the show with a pinch of salt as they’re not always totally accurate, but it’s pleasing to learn a bit more about the tradition.
Clip from the show in question:
The traditional creche, to my thinking, is fine;
I won’t mess with theirs if they don’t mess with mine.
Not even the one at my town’s public square
So long as my own has an equal place there.
If you want the display to be yours, and yours only,
Then keep it at home; hope you like being lonely.
Or join with the rest of us–come and have fun,
If you want a real party… invite every one!
Myers look like a Jew to me.
And you sound like an idiot.
I agree, Myers do look like a Jew.
Why not just simply have a pagan statue or display? Don’t waste your breath with “there are no gods” because that’s not very subtle. But having statues or plaques or images or pagan gods or the zodiac (yes, PZ, I know you hate astrology but it’s for a good cause) is much cooler and more indirect.
If you say “no God exists” that just prompts “yes he does, shows how much you know”. Put up the zodiac and you get a lot of vague sputtering.
How do a Jew look?
Interesting possibilities.
It seems like an encouragement to put up a nativity scene just to shit in it. Figurinely speaking.
One could get a cheap Wal-Mart nativity scene, and put it in a sand pit in the front yard, then all the neighborhood cats would shit in it for real.
Then your nativity scene would have that authentic Manger AromaTM
QUICK, somebody get some Frankincense !!
How do a Jew look?
I think they use their eyes.
So it’s true what they say about what the Pope does in the woods. Can I safely assume bears are Catholic, then?
That’s great! Let it all out. Your honesty is refreshing.
There’s nothing so annoying as you religious types pretending you all got along just fine before us mean ol’ atheists showed up.
Write letters to the editor, telling everyone else how you feel. Hell, go on TV.
That way, when a menorah gets stolen this Hanukkah, even Bill O’Retread will have to admit it probably wasn’t the atheists, and just maybe people might start asking why belief in a god doesn’t seem to be all that effective in keeping people moral.
My theory is that every adult in the Catalonian culture died out at one point, and nothing but kids were left. They carried on with everything as best they remembered it, but inevitably these youthfully comic little details — shitting statues in Nativity scenes — crept in. Today, everybody treats it all as hallowed tradition.
Although … considering some of the weird stuff Christians believe and do, the same thing could have happened in the Christian culture.
Maybe there was, like, a big flood or something.
Interesting. Perhaps this is “positive vandalism.” Hopefully people would have a sense of humor about it!
But I wonder what would happen if people “added” to the secular statement that was recently in the news!
NS
http://sciencedefeated.wordpress.com/
I think people are taking this thread the wrong way (though, as I already pointed out, that is to be expected).
I think what is being advocated here is the display of altered nativity scenes, not the alteration of displays of other people.
Jews look very unique, thats true. Maybe he is right, Myers do look like a Jew.
Michael Hawkins #31 wrote:
I don’t think anything is being advocated here. I think PZ just thought the silly add-to-a-manger idea discussed by some people on another post would be a funny segue to bringing up this display of tasteless and crude religious statues which, being “part of a long religious tradition,” aren’t supposed to be blasphemous.
scooter #32:
It’s the beard. He look like he hiding something.
from Barcelona (no, I won’t write this in every comment like Byers)
1. I think “Catalonian” is simply “Catalan”
2. JustJoeP : it’s “Chacun sa merde”
As I said in an earlier thread, I can confirm that the Obama-caganer is the most popular here, in front of the Barcelona cathedral this afternoon there were loads of these kitschy things.
Bought one for my crêche, and I’m soooo sending one to PZ !
The caganer is supposed to bring prosperity (the feces fertilizes), I guess the next POTUS’s feces must bring us prosperity.
Spoofed handle at #23 wrote:
I agree, Myers do look like a Jew.
Riiight, everyone thinks that’s something I’d say. Thanks for playing, though!
Arguable. Who are you to say that baby jesus wouldn’t want to cuddle up with a few squid? Or that Spongebob Squarepants wasn’t present? What a few mistakenly call vandalism are really just improvements to something boring and clichey.
Sastra @ 33:
I hope you are right. However, PZed doesn’t do a good job of making it clear enough that that is what he actually means. A few people are going to take this thread the wrong way.
Adding things to other people’s display is a form of vandalism: it is hindering other people’s rights of self-expression. If this is what people are advocating, it’s a terrible idea.
Sastra scooter #32:
It’s the beard. He look like he hiding something.
That wasn’t me, somebody is plagiarizing handles. #32 isn’t weird enough to be me.
Just dropping in to say thanks for the link. I’m a regular reader but a rare commenter, and I’m really honored to have been linked here.
Teleprompter #38 wrote:
I agree, though I’d probably just call it a bad idea. After all, someone could “add on” something insulting to the FFRF display in Washington — like put a jester’s hat on it, or stick one of those “mooning” trolls in front of it, perhaps — and it would be a bother to have to keep fixing it all the time.
scooter #39 wrote:
Uh huh. How do I know it’s you now?
I thought it was sarcasm, or mockery. And weird. But I stand corrected.
Maybe. If it’s really you.
And this is really me.
(note: plagiarizing handles is a plagiarized form of vandalism. Whoever is doing it should stop it.)
NB : The Church does authorize the addition of caganers on nativty scenes here in Catalunya.
Not that anybody cares, but thought it might be of no interest to mention it.
That’s an unfair, sweeping generalization. One day you’ll befriend a real myer and regret having said that.
Well, any true Atheist should know that the Word of Myers should be taken metaphorically.
#44
See above at #36, this person is stealing handles. Not only does he fail at subject-verb agreement, he speaks of looking like a Jew as if that were a bad thing. ;-D
I´ve been thinking about it, and I think I changed my mind. Being a Jew is nothing good, greedy filthy scum is what they.
I apologize, I spoke before I let my thought accumulate properly.
OT, but you ought to see that Romania intends to remove evolution from its schools’ curricula, and teach only creationism:
http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/4652/46/
they what?
Didn’t get very far in school did you? Did all beating and raping from your father making your school work suffer?
I have a painstakingly crafted and painted antique pair (old peasant man and woman) of these figurines that my parents acquired in France in the early Sixties. I was always bemusedly fascinated by the notion of anyone creating such sculpture, my parents never did find out what they were, and I am so delighted to finally have an explanation, it’s one of those little “bucket list” checkoffs in real life! Wonder if these are worth anything…
Speaking as a Jew, the King of the Jews, the child of Jews, and the brother and friend of Jews, I find your hatred of me and your hate-filled cursing of me and my followers to be very disappointing.
And I am homosexual
Rev, Shaden Freud is being spoofed. #47 has all the hallmark of SF’s spoofer including incorrect spellings, using word incorrectlies, and sentence of word orders mixeds.
(That’s me, spoofing the spoofer of SF, but using my own handle, which is like spoof × spoof ÷ spoof, and you’d need some kinda crazy math that’s probably not even invented yet to figure out how meta-spoofy that is.
That’ll be my spoof-proof trademark: comments that totally blow your mind. Let’s see you spoof that, spoofer.
Alright. Dig.)
Yeah I know it’s some loser who spent his childhood locked in a closet spoofing him. But still…
Okay everyone, lets settle down and take it easy.
Yes, Jesus Christ was a disgusting JEW, that is true, but remember that God had to decide to be born amongst one of the filthy scum and simple decided at random that Joseph and Maria was the one to be responsible for Jesus birth.
Jesus may be a Jew, but he still died for our sins. The Jews may be the scum of the earth, but Jesus died for their sins as well, and all you have to do is to accept him in your heart.
(Please send me money, the New World Over put me in Prison in the Land of Go (AMERICA) and I need all the support I can get. GOD is on our Side, do not worry my children, my son has taken over the ministry).
What a tiresome little toad you are.
And Charity! Don’t forget to give to charity! ><
PZ,it might be time to have a look at logs and IP addresses.
Back to the Cantalonian Tradition… One of the local churches needs volunteers for their Living Nativity Scene. Think I’ll grab a roll of TP and head on down.
It’s been kind of a slow day. This was a pretty funny bit, though.
This is my metaspoof of Brownian self-spoofing the spoofer’s spoofed spoof of Brownian’s pseudospoof.
Spoof that, motherfucker!
As a prank someone, who will remain nameless, replaced the usual baby Jesus in the typical manger scene with a discarded electric BBQ rotisserie, a fair simulation of hot coals created by a light bulb and crumpled colored plastic, and a spitted plastic doll covered with what looked like BBQ sauce. The unit was plugged into the existing lighting and the rotation added a bit of action to what is usually a static display.
The effect was both subtle and startling with the adoring looks of Madonna, Joseph and three wise men reframed as hungry longing for BBQ. As the baby slowly spins over the glowing coals.
Most people missed the difference. but in time there were a few cases of wild laughter. A few howls of outrage and at least one call to the police to end what might be considered sacrilege.
Evidently he or she failed to see the irony of eating the host, crackers magically transformed into the selfsame depicted Jew, and the implication this might apply to the infant Jesus.
“This is my metaspoof of Brownian self-spoofing the spoofer’s spoofed spoof of Brownian’s pseudospoof.
Spoof that, motherfucker”
spoof spoof spoof spoof spoof spoof spoof! spoof spoof spoof, spoof spoof spoof. spoof? spoof!
SPOOF
Oh god I broke the word, it means nothing when I type it now.
oh do please go look at my most excellent post inspired by prof. myers! please!
http://fromlaurelstreet.wordpress.com/2008/12/06/i-kid-you-not/
i know, i know, i’m being a blogwhore but i was particularly dlighted in coming up with the photo illustration and caption for this one.
and it is a noteworthy example of elected officials inappropriately injecting religion where it has no business.
Just found this quote by a creationist about a evolution video and I thought it was funny enough to be worth sharing;
I really don’t see a balanced view here. Charles Darwin was a racist – this is well known, but students aren’t being taught this. If anyone has actually read and understood the book you would be shocked. Micro-evolution is well known. Macro-evolution is not. Exactly where is there a new species? After years and years of (selective) adaptation in dogs – a pure chihuahua’s gametes are still compatible with a pure Rottweiler’s – thus still the same species. Same as the ‘peppered moth’ example. I’m still not convinced we are teaching the most scientific theory. All Rembrandt’s paintings are the same so the fact we share genes with chimpanzee’s just points to the same creator!
Even ignoring the rest of the rubbish, the final sentence is surely one of the greatest non sequiturs ever. In what sense did the author think that the second part of the sentence followed from the first part?
Please, also go to http://www.gaypornstar.com for the latest in erotica.
Just found this quote by a creationist about a evolution video and I thought it was funny enough to be worth sharing;
I really don’t see a balanced view here. Charles Darwin was a racist – this is well known, but students aren’t being taught this. If anyone has actually read and understood the book you would be shocked. Micro-evolution is well known. Macro-evolution is not. Exactly where is there a new species? After years and years of (selective) adaptation in dogs – a pure chihuahua’s gametes are still compatible with a pure Rottweiler’s – thus still the same species. Same as the ‘peppered moth’ example. I’m still not convinced we are teaching the most scientific theory. All Rembrandt’s paintings are the same so the fact we share genes with chimpanzee’s just points to the same creator!
Even ignoring the rest of the rubbish, the final sentence is surely one of the greatest non sequiturs ever. In what sense did the author think that the second part of it followed from the first?
The killfile is hungry for fresh blood…
are you 12 years old?
(yes i know this is a hijacked nym)
Please, also go to http://www.gaypornstar.com for the latest in erotica.
And you would know this how, little troll?
Makes perfect sense to me, but then again, I’ve been studying chimpanzees’ justs for years and thus know exactly where they point.
If man will never learn to not feed the trolls, then how will man learn to discard religion? The smug albeit well-meaning people here who have responded to the troll post are no different to excitable Christians whose knowledge is inversely proportional to their zeal.
I’m reminded of one of my favorite scenes in the 1982 Barry Levinson film, Diner:
“Fenwick’s in the manger, and he won’t get out!”
Hee-hee. This thread is really absurd. I’m not really sure if this is me typing or someone else.
Bhwaaaaaaa. Someone stoled my internetz identity.
(So much for netz-cred.)
Wankers.
awesome non-sequitur
Smug? Moi?
Yes we are all aware of the internet tradition of not feeding trolls.
But where is the fun in that?
I’m reminded of one of my favorite scenes in the 1982 Barry Levinson film, Diner:
“Fenwick’s in the manger, and he won’t get out!”
Julie Stahlhut:
Please post again. I didn’t get it the first two times, but then again I’m an idiot whose internetz handle may have been usurped. 10-4, good buddies.
Anyone notice how Halloween decorations become quite unacceptable when placed into a Christmas scene?
If he says this (which he wouldn’t), then there’s a problem.
Jews are the descendants of monkeys.
Fucking around with this identity-crisis thing.
Cheerfully nihilistic.
idiot
Wait…did that guy just say I look like Paul Newman, son of a Jewish father? I’m flattered. Thank you.
PZ smack this fool please
Yikes! This is possible. And easy to do. Sorry, Chimpy, but you carry some weight around here, being a Molly-winner and all, and I stole your ID (no, not that kind,)to see if it were possible, and lo and behold . . . .
Is there no god?
PZ, will you at least delete its anti-Semitic comments? Just reading those made my stomach turn.
While we’re on the topic of anti-Semites, there’s this fool on here giving Canada a bad name…..
“Myers look like a Jew to me.
How do a Jew look?”
More importantly, how is babby formed?
thank you for defending my honor, rev. bigdumbchimp.
and thanks to all who came by to see the pic.
it makes me laugh.
Just to make it clear, Karen, I was aware that the comment about gay porn wasn’t yours.
For those who missed it in the troll droppings, a resident of Barcelona reports that the caganers are depositing fertilizer on the Nativity scene, which is why they are often figurines of respected, popular and/or powerful persons:
Back on topic here
Here is a cute film about the Catalonian shitting statues. Or at least I find it cute when little kids sing about tio’s shitting candy.
As teenagers, friends and I used to drive around certain neighborhoods at night, steal a large number of baby Jesuses from lawn nativity scenes, and deposit them all in one lawn.
RevBDC @49
The beatings from my father and mother did make my schoolwork suffer. It also made me hesitant to use any factor beyond a person’s control such as physical deformities or learning impairments as an insult.
Why is everybody in this thread using the adjective Catalonian, when Catalan is so much simpler ?
Examples :
Fine Catalan tradition
Catalan shitting statues
Even Wikpedia uses “Catalan” in its english version :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language
Look, this is why we can’t have nice things.
If you are an atheist and want to be CONSTRUCTIVE, then put up your own sign on your own lawn.
Leave everyone else alone. You have the rights to free speech, nobody is going to say otherwise. However, why be a jerk? You can’t find a way to express yourself without being a loser?
This is why people don’t like militant atheists, because they think their rights become more important than anyone else.
From the manner that people post on here, they need to learn to get along with people and gain some social skills.
You can learn to respect people even if you don’t agree and you can tollerate people and still have free speech.
Putting a nazi symbol on a jewish headstone is not going to help your cause and the same thing here. Putting up something opposing the nativity isn’t going to help.
Shorter KC @95: “You have the rights [sic] to free speech”, but don’t use it.
From the manner that
peopleKC posts on here,theyhe needs to learn to get along with people and gain some social skills.KC #95 says, “Putting a nazi symbol on a jewish headstone is not going to help your cause and the same thing here.”
What in tarnation are you talking about? OUR “CAUSE”? Are you fucking insane?
No atheist has so much as painted a mustache on the baby jesus, you idiot.
Who is being discriminated against here? Everyone but Xians. By who. Xians, mostly the Death Cultist Liars and Killers for jesus bunch.
Technically xians have no legal right to put up religious displays on public property, separation of church and state. If they are allowed, the courts say everyone has to be able to put up a Holiday display. So when atheists, Wiccans, or Scientologists put up their displays, who screams bloody hell and vandalizes and steals them. Xians. Take your mindless hatred and lies and shove it.
BTW, xians make up 78% of the population, atheists maybe 5 to 10%. So who is the persecuted minority here? With xians like KC, that 78% is gradually shrinking. Few other than deranged cultists want to be dumb and stupid and head on back to the Dark Ages.
This:
http://portlytruestories.blogspot.com/2007/12/portly-true-christmas-story.html
is the most awesome Nativity prank I have ever seen.
Why not put Jesus in the nativity scene, I mean full grown up Jesus holding baby Jesus as if some rift in the spacetime continuum occured creating a time paradox. After all, they can’t get mad at you for putting Jesus in a nativity scene, can they?
Many years ago we made a crêche starring characters from our daily life. In those days, you see, we had five birds in the house: three budgies (Dirk, Ulrike and Pippo), a cockatiel (Heinz-Rüdiger) and a mynah (the Terminator). So we made fetching wee papier-mâché figures: Heinz-Rüdiger was Mary, the Terminator was Joseph, and the three budgies were the Magi. And in the middle of it all, sleeping in a nest of straw, was the baby Jesus, a Kinder Surprise Egg.
Defecate on their display?
That’ll show ’em moral high ground!
And intellectual bankruptcy.
Oldman, read the whole thread. It’s not defecating on the display.
Doctor Brown #101, what a good idea! In fact way better than anybody else’s. But not mine – mine’s way kewler. :-P
Nerd of Redhead #104, what are you talking about? Nobody reads comments! People just post to be read and don’t have the courtesy to read what others have written. Pff. Bah.
Has anyone modified a nativity scene by giving one of the wise men a copy of the bill of rights? That would probably be subtle enough to last a while, as well as funny on a few levels.