I’ve barred the doors — I’m sure that any moment now, a squadron of goose-stepping nuns will come marching up the street to wag their fingers at me and rebuke me for what I’ve started. It seems the Youth of Today are going on YouTube and…flaunting their disrespect for crackers!
People can find a video of almost anything on YouTube: babies’ first steps, Saturday Night Live skits, news clips, concerts and now – to the shock of Catholics everywhere – desecration of the Eucharist.
YouTube has long been a destination for Catholics seeking video clips of Masses, apologetics lectures or devotions, but now Catholic outrage is growing as the site has become home to a string of videos depicting acts of Eucharistic desecration, including flushing a host down the toilet, putting one in a blender, feeding one to animals, shooting one with a nail gun and more.
They don’t provide links, perhaps fearing that this could become even more popular. Here you go, somebody is having lots of fun with his crackers. Gosh, maybe more people will be publicly committing heresy now!
You can guess what the response is.
“I don’t know what to say,” said a stunned Msgr. C. Eugene Morris, professor of sacramental theology at Kenrick Glennon Seminary in St. Louis, when told about the videos. “I am outraged that YouTube is tacitly supporting this and giving this behavior an audience.”
Hey, Eugene! It’s just a cracker! Get over it — as long as people aren’t disrupting your services or pilfering chalices, there has been no interference with your religious freedom, and no harm done.
Thomas Serafin is president of the International Crusade for Holy Relics, an internet watchdog group of Catholic laymen. His group has been fighting online affronts to the Catholic Church, including the sale of the Eucharist and of relics of the saints online, for more than a decade.
“YouTube has to be held accountable and stopped,” Serafin said from Los Angeles. “If Catholics don’t take a stand right now, they can expect such outrages to continue.”
Serafin added: “The internet is, in many ways, a new world, and it is our duty to evangelize this world, but we have to speak up and be heard to do that.”
Thomas and his organization are more than a little creepy — death cultists oblivious to their own bizarrely morbid obsessions. They have a right to evangelize if they want, but others have a right to mock and laugh at them, too. These wackos are organizing now, though, to get YouTube to censor and blacklist anyone who visibly makes fun of religious beliefs. YouTube has not cave in yet, though, and I hope they hold out — it is absurd to say that Catholic videos of blood and bones are not offensive, while videos of demolished bits of bread are outrages that must be yanked.
Serafin said people should call or write YouTube to demand that the videos be taken down. YouTube’s public relations email address is press@youtube.com
People who think YouTube should not be in the business of prosecuting blasphemy should also write and let them know that you are pleased they are not the religion police.
Now whose fault is all this? Mine. I am so proud.
One name still making the rounds in YouTube and bloggers’ discussions on Eucharistic desecration is Paul Z. Myers, the University of Minnesota professor who asked his blog readers in July to “score” him “some consecrated communion wafers.”
“If any of you would be willing to do what it takes to get me some, or even one, and mail it to me, I’ll show you sacrilege, gladly, and with much fanfare,” Myers wrote in response to the case of a University of Central Florida student who stole a consecrated host the previous month.
Myers later posted a picture of a host – which he claimed was consecrated and sent to him via mail – as well as pages from the Koran and atheist Richard Dawkins’ “The God Delusion” in a trash can, underneath coffee grounds and a banana peel.
As for the current YouTube videos, Dominique cited Myers as inspiration for the video series.
This is great! Everyone should join in! It makes me so pleased to see growing, vocal opposition to the fundamental absurdity of religion, do keep it up.
Of course, the price we pay is a lot of complaints back at us, which is fine — annoying, but it’s their right. Since I just got back from a long weekend, I thought I’d peek into the eucharist auto-trash folder and see what’s dribbled into my email lately, and you’ll find a sample below the fold. I just grabbed the top 15, so it’s also fairly representative of the content.
Most of these, by the way, are also being sent to President Bruininks and Chancellor Johnson, who, I’m sure, are thoroughly sick of them all. I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re filtering out anything that mentions “Myers”!
Your disciplining of Paul Z. Myers for desecrating the the Eucharist was not adequate. You will have to do more like terminating him or giving him a very long suspension. People are outraged at his behavior. Even if we do not share someone’s beliefs we do not show our disrespect in such an extreme way. I don’t think you recognize what has happened here. I advise you to rise to better than you have.
Dear Doctor Bruininks,
I recently learned of the actions of Professor Paul Myers at UMN in which he desecrated the Catholic Eucharist and then posted photos of the desecration on his website before disposing of it in the trash. Now why would a man in our hypersensitive, politically correct, multicultural society go out of his way to willfully and publicly offend one fragment of that society with whom he has no beef other than his rejection of their beliefs? Well, obviously it all has to do with Professor Myers’s attempt to self identify as a “controversial” , “iconoclastic”, and “tell it like it is” member of academia. Who knows what back-slapping and monetary/sexual favors will come his way as the result of his courageous stand?
The problem is, of course, that you can beat the tar out of the Catholic church with impunity. Kind of like that punk in the movie “Witness” who tormented the twice-as-strong, strapping young Amish man knowing full well that the Amish culture did not permit retaliation. I also recalled a comedy skit offered by Robin Williams in which he used his overrated and miniscule comic imagination to ridicule pro-life proponents. Writing the next day a critic referred to this performance as “controversial and brave”. The fact that you probably never heard of this part of his repertoire tells you all you need to know about how truly brave and controversial he was. Contrast that with Lenny Bruce who, the day after the Kennedy assassination, performed a comic skit mimicking and ridiculing Jackie Kennedy’s retreat over the back of the automobile after the bullets were fired. Now that was brave and controversial and members of the audience had to be restrained from lynching Mr. Bruce right there on the stage.
Had Professor Myers really taken a unique and courageous stand, I’m sure he would have suffered a fate similar to Professor Larry Summers at Harvard. But instead of slapping this small minded man silly for his self-aggrandizing actions made at the expense of UMN’s reputation, you respond with hand-wringing over academic freedom and privacy rights. Had he posted on his web a photo of a polar bear that he slaughtered as a protest against global warming, I wonder if your respect for his privacy would have been equivalent. No, change that. I don’t wonder.
I make sure I use my mailing list to enlighten my circle of friends regarding the craven actions of your professor and your equally cowardly response, and I’ll ask them to forward the information to their circle of friends. Hopefully I’ll be able to create some significant level of the well-deserved disrespect for your University and its tinhorn biology teacher.
Sincerely,
John Conwell
Paul Z. Myers,
Now that you have desecrated the Eucharist and offended me and over a billion Catholics, I would like you to publicly desecrate the Koran.
I’m waiting to see that marvelous display of “academic freedom.”
David Lanser
Dear Dr. Myers,
As you are a scientist, you are objective.
As a scientist, I am objective. But I also know that there is an existence I cannot see. If someone else does not believe the same, I do not criticize them.
Why do you have a problem with the belief system of the Catholic Church? Why does it disturb you? From a historical perspective, the Catholic Church originated the university system that you enjoy so much.
To actively desecrate the Eucharist, in which you do not believe, has no meaning for you. It is an expression of an emotional or spiritual disturbance in someone who is usually logical in approach. Your hostility is a symptom, and you are using it to persecute. If I were not already Catholic, I would run to join up. A belief system so maliciously treated must have something of value as its basis.
If you are open-minded, I challenge you to say one sentence each day-“God, if You are real, prove it to me.”Sincerely,
Judith McGuinn, MD
I’m terribly sorry that you saw fit to desecrate the Holy Eucharist and show total disrespect for 67 million Catholics nationwide.Your bizzare behavior won’t be tolerated.You certainly owe all Catholics an apology.Knock it off.
Sincerely,
Carl R. Carieri
Dear President Robert Bruinks,
Today I received the information regarding your biology professor Paul Zachary Myers who had desecrated the Holy Eucharist and suffered no penalty. I was really shocked. I am from Minnesota, Winona County. Years ago I was told that one of my cousins lost his faith at the University of Minnesota. Now I can understand why. I beg you to do what is in your power to eliminate this professor and others who would like to destroy the Church from your staff.
Sincerely,
Marie Louise Jilk
Northfield, Illinois
Gentlemen and Lady,
We are a worldwide church of one billion people and 60 million in the USA. We love our Church and believe in its teachings. All we ask is that you respect our beliefs and leave us alone. We do not want our Eucharist belittled and desecrated. It is our belief and faith that Jesus is truly there and through the centuries there have been many miracles to prove it, if one takes the time to research this beautiful faith, founded by Jesus Himself. You will know this when you die. In the meantime, especially Dr. Myers, I hope you will mind your own business and grow up. We have freedom of religion in America — we also need to respect others’ beliefs. If that student took the Eucharist from the Church, it was wrong, and Dr. Donohue had every right to object and do what he did to defend it. He will be rewarded — will you?
Deanna Hohmann
West Caldwell, NJ
Mr. Meyers,
You really have some demented ideas. From your sacrilegious misuse of the Eucharist to your attempts to trash Mike Koelzer I really have to wonder what your real problem is. It’s plain to see you have no regard for God or for innocent human life. I do hope you get some professional help and I will pray for you. May the Holy Spirit change your heart and mind. Remember, Jesus does love you!
Mrs. Deborah Gallo
Dear Professor:
Jesus freely submitted to crucifixion and death on the cross as a sacrifice to atone for our sins. In fact, in His great love he has revealed to St. Mary Alacoque that even if yours was the only soul to die for it would still be worth His life. This sacrifice is renewed everyday through the Eucharist at Catholic masses throughout the world, where Jesus becomes truly present; body, blood, soul and divinity.
How unfathomably generous that God would permit himself to be veiled behind the most ordinary of materials to teach us what true humility means and provide manifold graces to poor sinners (myself included). Not only have you chosen to reject this marvelous gift which helps lead us to salvation, but you have committed the gravest of sacrileges. Please consider deeply what you have done and repent of this horrific act. It is never too late to seek the Lord’s forgiveness. He loves His lost sheep so very deeply despite the wounds they inflict on Him every day.
Eternity is a state to which there is no end. Are you willing to gamble that if you are wrong on this point, you are going to spend eternity in ceaseless torment apart from the Living God? I cannot imagine a scarier prospect. If anything, stop your persecution of the Catholic Church, for you are attacking the millions of faithful when you mock and mistreat Her.
I had never heard of the Morris campus of the University of Minnesota until one of your tenured faculty took it upon himself to desecrate the Holy Eucharist, a sacrament of the Roman Catholic Church.
It seems pretty obvious that your Dr. Paul Z. Myers has a problem above and beyond his hatred of Catholicism. In his current state, are the Catholic students in his classes safe?
Why don’t you put him on sabbatical and let the mental health professionals take him away for a nice respite? (Even Nancy Pelosi would understand the nature of his dastardly act.)
Maybe that would quiet down Bill Donohue of the Catholic League. In the meantime, why not visit his website at www.catholicleague.org.
I imagine a few of the Catholics, Protestants, Jews and Muslims that I’m blind-copying on this email will visit the site, assess the commotion created by Paul Z. Myers and elect, perhaps, to check in with you regarding their reactions to what Dr. Myers did and what you have not done, so far, in response to his actions.
Donohue, although a New Yorker, is an Irish Catholic of the stripe that I grew up with in Chicago.
Chicago Catholics understand Donohue because his ire reflects theirs but we don’t understand Myers nor your tolerance of him beyond the fact that he has tenure.
Is there any possibility that Bruininks and Johnson quietly agree with Myer’s histrionic behavior?
Is it possible that the Morris campus suffers from pandemic anti-Catholicism–and the world needs to know?
Maybe the Catholic press needs to survey the situation on a national level to see if Donohue has a legitimate complaint or is simply the victim of that gene so many Irish strive to keep under control–hyperbole stoked by righteous rage.
I suspect that as long as Donohue breathes we’ll learn more about the “Morris Three,” as some now call this gathering of Myers, Bruininks and Johnson, as well as their fellow travelers in Morris, MN.
Good luck in the deluge.
Donal F. Mahoney
Perhaps you will not even read this.
It is time for academia to stand up against all intolerance and not just ignore offending 24% of the population of the USA.
Anti-Catholicism is one of the last glaringly acceptable exceptions for passing a test of “tolerance” among the enlightened ilk. If anything of the sort was done to blacks, homosexuals, Jews, or Muslims there would be a swift penal reaction from your administration; we all know that to be true.
You have a chance to do the right thing. He should be on probation at the very least. If something like this happens again, I’m sure many names will become more familiar in Catholic circles and perhaps many e-mail boxes will be a bit jammed. That’s much better than what will happen to professor Myers if he continues to offend Muslims. We Christians reason with persecutors and pray for them, none of your University family will be safe if the Muslims feel slighted!
I hope you understand the difference. Godspeed, Fr. Kloster
Dr. Bruininks:
At the end of October my wife and I are travelling to Minnesota to see some old friends. We have never been to your state before and are excited to see all that we can. While we are there we want to tell our friends and to relay our message to their relatives and friends about the University of Minnesota.
We do hope they will be as disgusted as we are about a certain Dr. Myers on your faculty who, in the name of the university, has taken it upon himself to totally disrespect our beliefs in the Holy Eucharist of the Catholic Church.
We here in the East have heard about him and what he has done with what he irreverently calls a ‘cracker’.
It has lowered our opinion of not only your university but of the state in general since it is a state university. This could not happen at our beloved Penn State.
The tolerance you show for everything non-Christian is remarkable and your intolerance for anything Christian is more remarkable.
In conclusion, it might be suggested to that so-called professor who only studies little fish to show some courage and burn a Koran…after all, it’s only A BOOK !!Sincerely
Michael F. Gallagher
Abington, PA
You kick against the goad.
Acts: 9:4-6
“And falling on the ground, he heard a voice saying to him: Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? Who said: Who art thou, Lord? And He: I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. It is hard for thee to kick against the goad.”Instead of advocating peace, charity and good will to your fellow men, you give fire to the spirit of hatred and ill-will among your fellow men.
With your public rabid dog howling against the Holy Eucharist, and Jesus Christ you let the whole world know how spiritually in pain you are.
After you are dead, and your body turns to dust/ashes, the Holy Eucharist and Jesus Christ will still be alive and well. Read your history books. Jesus Christ yesterday, Jesus Christ today, and Jesus Christ tomorrow.
Death will come to let you know just how un-important you are.
You kick against the goad, and the GOAD will triumph.
Myers:
I’m seventy years old, and have been a Catholic all my life, as my ancestors.
I hold the Eucharist as a Holy precept, concept of my Catholic faith and resent anybody ridiculing or desecrating my religious faith.
You have a very hateful spirit. Like the howling dogs of hell you have so much hatred that you cannot tolerate spiritual joy so you attach it like a rabid dog.
Repent before you die howling like the dogs of hell with a soul full of hatred!! It’s not too late!! Give up your hatred!! Learn to give spiritual joy, goodwill and peace. With all your book learning you are still very ignorant. What so ever you sow you shall reap!
Hey Pauly,
All of the monkeys ain’t in the zoo; the rest are at the University of Minnesota. Even more illuminating is that all the assholes are there too, not to mention the bigots, frauds, perverts, and no-nothings. I think that pretty much covers the spectrum in the educated imbeciles category. But, you stand out a little more than others.
Your total inanity of blasphemy and sacrilege in desecrating a Sacred Host while disparaging Roman Catholicism is particularly interesting. But, you are indubitably an order of fries short of a Happy Meal – and to be pitied and prayed for. The “Light” will shine soon enough though.
Regardless of your self-imposed proclivities, Jesus believes you are someone special too. He died on the cross for everyone – the most arrogant, prideful, dishonest, disrespectful and hate-filled. But, He offered us all a chance to believe in Him, with the hope of salvation and eternal happiness after death.
Factoid:
No one is required to tolerate the intolerable. And you, Pauly, are . . . I-n-t-o-l-e-r-a-b-l-e!I’d suggest passing this on to a few of your elitist contemporaries for translation purposes, but I ‘m sure they’re probably more than just one order of fries short of their Happy Meal. What say you, Pauly?
Have a nice day, eh? J
PS – I won’t pretend to understand your outrageous blasphemy and misconduct as long as you don’t pretend to misundersdtand my justified anger.
One other development: while the flood of email is waning, the physical, posted, stamped, US Postal Service-type mail has actually been increasing. I’m getting a couple of letters, all still similar in tone to the email, and just as repetitive, every day. Here’s one example, unsigned, postmarked from Saginaw, Michigan.
ATH Z MYERS
I wouldn’t want to be in your place when you draw Your Last Breath!!!
Not too far off!!
Most of the email on this subject is now automatically trashed on arrival, and I don’t read it. I do still open and read every letter sent to me, though…and I laugh my wicked laugh, as my regard for religious superstition is confirmed every single time.
Not even if I tell you that I don’t exist directly?
Who are you going to believe, logic or Me?
Hey Nickie Trash: now we’re doing ethics eh? What’s Darwin have to say about that?? Altruism is hardly some necessary trait, to humans or animals.
Yr not even Darwinists. Indeed, racism could be a useful trait (and even TH Huxley suggested as much–one reason all the liberals (including atheist ones) objected to his writing. Eo Wilson also said as much. His books probably hasn’t made it to yr RN program).
That’s the trouble with atheists these days; they want to do it all on their own.
Which is why your mom and dad abandoned you at birth?
Well, at least you got something right in that logorrhoea. But then again, stopped clocks.
Your an ignorant moron and coward J. The evolution of altruism is a major topic in evolutionary theory. Try googling “kin selection”, “group selection”, “ESS”, “EEA”, “reciprocal altruism”, “reputation”, and “handicap principle” for a start. Better still, just fuck off and die.
Don’t we get credit for initiative?
Well Darwin didn’t have much to say that was relevant. There are plenty of evolutionary psychologists out there who have far more to say on the issue.
But to put it simply: genes that make someone more altruistic helps in social bonding. Empathy is a powerful emotion and helps those feel compassion for others. We can see consolation behaviour (comforting the loser of a fight) not only in our species but in other species too. We see acts of kindness and sharing all through nature. Quite simply to have altruistic tendencies means that people can work in groups and a group is far safer than any one individual. Having genes that make us want the safety of others will make us better adapted to surviving. Those genes would get passed on and on and on while group behaviour remained the social goal.
Keep going dumbass, and yr career will be over, puto.
you tell ’em Mr. asthma-hound Chihuahua!
better yet, I think you should get right on that letter writing campaign!
like I said, I saw the rising humor value in you.
I knew you could do it!
But we already know quite a bit about him: he is not a lawyer, an English major, or an art/design major — as a quick visit to his hideous blog proves — and he knows less about logic than he boasts.
When I want you to show initiative, I will by damn tell you so Myself. Until then, obey Me!
And I say now, “Stop believing in Me!!!”
To put it eloquently: no shit.
You can’t prove the absence of anything, but that doesn’t give any reason to believe in it. It’s the null hypothesis. Remember, atheism is a question of belief not of knowledge. To be an atheist all it entails is not believing in God.
I can’t prove God doesn’t exist, but I have no reason to believe God does, therefore I’m an atheist.
Wait…. This is a trick, isn’t it?
Altruism is hardly some necessary trait, to humans or animals.
oh?
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=393409
here’s a single article for your consideration.
I can give ya a fucking library on the subject, since it happens to be a specialty of mine.
it’s only tangentially related to the issue of “ethics” though, which is why neither Darwin, nor Dawkins, nor, for that matter, the guy whose work most directly related to the subject (WD Hamilton) had much to say about ethics wrt to evolutionary theory.
so much ignorance, so little time.
but.. keep going, you’re little tirades are becoming more amusing as your face gets ever redder.
Oh dear, the little one’s teething.
Wrong gender… What do you propose to do to end my career, honey?
NOMA was a stillborn idea. Nice attempt to salvage your pointless Gould remark, though. “Even Gould”, hah.
Got it in one, smart guy.
The only question is, is he trying reverse-psychology, reverse-reverse-psychology, or triple-reversed-psychology with an Immelmann loop and a Möbius twist?
what is it about people who use that handle?
you have an interesting point there.
what is this? the 3rd “J” of this caliber to appear here in the last 6 months or so?
meh, with only 3 data points, it’s probably just coincidence.
You’re overthinking it.
It is actually a variant on His favorite game, “Heads I win, tails you lose.”
I honestly had no idea it was even possible to develop anything so ugly on Blogger. Staggering lack of aesthetic sensibility.
In fairness to “J the British Bright”, he was in the ha’penny place in the asshole stakes compared to this tool.
Yeah, that was the ugliest blog I’ve ever seen. Though it matched the content
Every sperm is certainly not sacred. Yuck, you guys got a mess over here.
Even Doc Behe has more class.
ah.
I see.
By the way, while we’re on the subjects of Gould and altruism, anyone mind if I link for a second time in as many weeks to “Kropotkin Was No Crackpot”?
…
No? OK:
http://www.marxists.org/subject/science/essays/kropotkin.htm
(PS: Ichthyic – Speaking of bad art, I have some new pics up.)
And here I thought Behe was just a crude creobot lying for jebus. If he has any class, kindergarten comes to mind.
When someone concludes that it’s all about “class”, and uses Behe as an example, I have to conclude they are a McCarthyite.
…as in Jenny McCarthy
For the love of all that is unholy and not sacred.
PLEASE FUCKING STOP USING YR INSTEAD OF YOUR.
Indeed. I wonder how much effort is required to defecate such an abomination.
Some species show altruistic behavior at times: some don’t. Alpha male wolves might be cute and cuddly when shown on PBS: they also might eat a few newborn pups, and thereby increase the chances of survival and advance the gene pool for those remaining (ready to teach that in kinder gentler secular ed courses?? NO).
How long have sharks been around? Not too much cuddly altruistic behavior (in fact when in packs say with a dead whale often getting some cannibalism on). Eo Wilson doesn’t have the evidence to support his own claims (and appears to skew evidence greatly). In other words, natural selection means natural selection: without some sneaky normative assumptions introduced.
(No, it’s you who doesn’t know crap about logic. First off, most of the neo-atheists don’t quite understand the problem with disproving negative existence claims concerning a “God” (aka Russell’s Teapot problem–itself sort of a reductionist analogy).
It’s not merely basic inductive BS–“there are no black swans” (assumed to be true, until a black swan was found); it’s a claim about a Being in an infinite domain with infinite parameters (or damn near, unless you want to prove the universe stops…), and astronomer’s information is limited by a finite speed of light for one. Have you been to the Crab Nebula? No. And what’s more, the Crab Nebula we see is what it was some millions of light years ago. That doesn’t mean God exists. But it does mean you only know something about a very limited part of the domain).
Ah, and yes Counterpunch style independent secular-leftism bothers you, Herr Doktor Bottlewashers? It was intended to. You are the religious ones……
Yep that sentence right there did it.
J., Super Genius.
Been buying stock in ACME J?
Actually they ‘has’. That’s how I know that the evolution of altruism has always been a central question in Wilson’s work. I wonder how you missed that in your extensive reading?
Some species show altruistic behavior at times: some don’t.
wow!
sheer.
genius.
ROFLMAO
damn, did you go to clown school to learn how to be this funny?
Some species show altruistic behavior at times: some don’t.
What insight! What originality! Give that man a Nobel prize!
Herr Doktor Bottlewashers
keep that phrase in mind to help identify J when he sockpuppets here tomorrow.
Kinda reminds me of Baba, except able to write complete sentences. Still nonsense though.
I fear reading much more of this may cause permanent synaptic damage.
The fuck are you talking about? Do you even know? Which of “Eo’s” claims are you referencing? Can you cite an example of evidence-skewing?
(Man, that combination of ignorance and arrogance pushes my buttons every time.)
Come on. This is the “WHY ARE THERE STILL MONKEEES??????” gambit!
He’s got the hots for you Nick! You dazzler you.
Astronomy FAIL.
“The Crab Nebula (catalogue designations M1, NGC 1952, Taurus A) […] Located at a distance of about 6,500 light-years (2 kpc) from Earth…”
Summary of J.’s blog, for those who haven’t bothered:
“How clever I am,
How clever I am,
How very, very, very, very,
Clever I am!”
You flatterer.
But you’re still disobeying my direct command. STOP IT AT ONCE!
Patricia,
Nah, don’t think so. The only one J has the hots for is J.
This is getting entertaining.
Actually, the Crab Nebula does mean God exists. We were both bored a few millenia ago, and since bubble wrap had not yet been invented, God told Me to blow up a few stars. BOOM!
That was fun for a while, and then I ran into that Job character…
Hey Ikky/487: Did I EVER claim to support theism anywhere? No. Typical reactionary BS (sort of reminds one of TH Huxley). I said, or at least suggested, that you were a spineless right-wing cretin, incapable of reason.
For that matter, the Phan. RN posse responds with the usual conclusionary BS when hearing Behe: Behe knows at least as much about bio-chem as say Dawkins, or most naive Darwinists. Behe does not reject Darwinian evo. across the board or radiocarbon dating anyway. He holds to the old earth, rightfully, with modfications.
I don’t buy his argument from complexity completely, nor do I think IDT should ever replace traditional biology in public schools. He should not be burned in effigy or his ideas banned. IDT’s an interesting speculation: yet speculation sort of anathema to most ….yeah…..midwestern RNs
Right-wing atheists such as PhanCo also routinely reintroduce their own moral/PC code (something like “secular democrats are GOODness itself”) , while at once saying science offers no proof of any moral or spiritual realm, no proof of any altruistic obligations. PhanCo regs lack even the courage of their own barely worked-out convictions.
At least old school Darwinists, like TH Huxley, understood the rather nasty implications of Darwinism as applied to humans. So did, say, Nietzsche however much he offends most RN types.
Come on. This is the “WHY ARE THERE STILL MONKEEES??????” gambit!
moreover, recent observations have suggested that there actually is more cooperation and communication between sharks than previously thought.
I personally have witnessed white sharks cooperating on hunts and sharing kills.
as to whether it involves altruistic behavior, still remains to be determined (that’s a REALLY tough thing to test just by strict observation).
However, sharks are far from the “eating machines” most of the ignorant like J would like to paint them as.
Come for the science and cephalopods, stay for the troll baiting/demolition.
HEY! Ixnay on the ellingtay alestay!
Or I’ll turn You into a Middle-Eastern mythological being, see if I don’t!
Again to put it eloquently: no shit! No-one here is saying that we do, they are saying that it’s seen throughout nature in various degrees suggesting it is an evolved trait.
Where did you get this from? Is this simply you “talking out of your arse”? Find me one ‘new atheist’ who doesn’t understand the idea of russell’s teapot.
Maybe he should show some aptitude on here.
Hey Ikky/487: Did I EVER claim to support theism anywhere?
where in 487 did I claim you were a theist?
just because you use the same logic, you must have concluded that all on your own, AFAICT.
man, you’re nuts.
Lets compare our GREs, Ikky Nurse. And more logical fallaices! (like ad auctoritas, sort of the hick, wannabe MD’s speciality.) That you mastered organic chem (or pretend to) has no bearing on your arguments, except those that pertain to organic chem. But instead of dealing with a specific argument like Russells Teapot (however trivial sort of raises a few issues) resort to the defamation.
Really, many an hick-atheist RN like Ikky hates religion (and yr okie wrath itself sort of proof of how f-n stupid you really are, Ikster) because understanding requires some analysis, or even scholarship. Alas TH Huxley couldn’t make it through a latin grammar class, so moved into zoology.
Behe thinks that astrology is a science…
If only your strawman had a brain….
Behe knows at least as much about bio-chem
funny he never actually uses any of that knowledge in any of his arguments.
instead, he tries to argue about things like the immune system, of which he has less than a rudimentary knowledge, and gets spanked by “mere” grad students like ERV.
your colors are showing, and it’s a runny mess.
Hey Ikky–maybe a more Darwinian solution will resolve the issue: like step in the ring, Petunia. Legal-like of course, Marquess of Queensburied. Bring some of the PhanCo gals. 405 Roscoe, todas dias .
Not at all, but I think Gould emphasizes the HORRIBLE FROZEN WASTELAND of Siberia a bit too much. It’s mostly taiga! Perfectly respectable forest! :) (Would he have found competition there more easily if he had looked at plants?)
And while it may be more easy to see animals competing in the tropics, countless examples of symbiosis have also evolved in the tropics. Few are endemic to Siberia, AFAIK. So I’m a bit skeptical of saying that Kropotkin’s ideas owe much to the Siberian environment.
Lets compare our GREs, Ikky Nurse
I’m sure the GRE’s obtained from that clown school you went to would far exceed my wildest imagination.
say, you’re not an auto-didact too, are you?
Really, many an hick-atheist RN like Ikky hates religion (and yr okie wrath itself sort of proof of how f-n stupid you really are, Ikster)
my okie wrath?
LOL
damn you ARE funny.
do i need to keep pulling your string, or are you wound up sufficiently to keep posting this stuff for the next few hours without me?
I love your comedy, but a guy has to eat, ya know.
like step in the ring, Petunia
he accuses me of libel, then physically threatens me.
are we sure this isn’t a refugee from Uncommonly Dense?
sure sounds a lot like Dave Scott Springerbot, must be either a close relative or a devout follower.
He’s channelling the ghost of D’Souza… quite impressive as D’Souza isn’t physically dead yet.
oh, and before the break…
That you mastered organic chem (or pretend to) has no bearing on your arguments
WTF?
J. dribbled:
Does anyone know what this “Phan. RN posse” is that J has invented.
It’s hard to tell whether he is illiterate, a troll or a full-on timecube.
full-on timecube.
combined with some sort of ghetto-webspeak
gets my vote.
DSM criteria for narcissistic personality disorder:
1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is “special” and unique
4. requires excessive admiration
5. has a sense of entitlement
6. is interpersonally exploitative
7. lacks empathy
8. is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
You could probably make a living hiring yourself out to medical schools as part of a differential diagnosis test set for psychiatric interns, J.
I’m just having too much fun with this!
many an hick-atheist RN
there are a lot of rural-area, atheist, registered nurses?
or are they all teenage enema nurses in bondage?
That’s a fascinating question! He was an expert horticulturalist, but I don’t recall any attention to plants in his books on this subject (will have to check again).
I agree (from an admitted position of ignorance). It’s sad, but generally I’m happy that Gould points out that Kropotkin was no crackpot, despite the flaws in his own argument. I think the piece is also weak in implying that Kropotkin was trying to find an entirely natural basis for morality. It’s strange that he didn’t discuss Ethics, the successor work to Mutual Aid. Although unfinished, it makes it clear that Kropotkin was making a far more sophisticated argument than he’s given credit for, including by Gould.
On the other hand, I do like how he situates Kropotkin’s arguments within the larger context of Russian interpretations of Darwin.
I’m quietly hoping the ‘old’ J. shows up and goes crazy-eight bonkers at the ‘new’ J.
At least he’s coherent.
In other words.
in other words…
ssssuuuupeeerrrr
geeeeeenniiuuusssss
Does anyone know what this “Phan. RN posse” is that J has invented.
hmm, I’m sure it will totally wrong, but I’ll take a shot at it:
“Phan” is some sort of webslang for “fanboy”, and is meant to imply we are some kind of PZ/Dawkins fanboys.
I think the “posse” suffix stresses that point.
as to the RN, I guessed he really did mean “registered nurse”, but as to why that’s an insult, I haven’t a clue.
some sort of manhood slight or something?
I’m also guessing that the underlying mentality comes from overexposure to these kinds of mentalities:
http://www.dedduck.com/posse.htm
and when he accuses someone of “okie wrath” he’s really projecting from personal experience.
… ah, I should have figured that RN stands for “red neck”, not registered nurse.
but if I had done that translation, I couldn’t have slipped in the link to one of my favorite punk songs of all time.
… so, in short:
Phan. RN posse = Redneck fanboys
that’s my final answer, Regis.
J wrote:
J on his blog:
Curiouser and curiouser.
Posted by: Ichthyic | October 1, 2008 9:16 PM
Seems likely.
I was guessing Phan(atical) R(ight-wing) N(utters)!
Not so sure, though:
“Ikky Nurse”
“wannabe MD’s speciality”
“mastered organic chem”
Trying to make sense of a lunatic’s ramblings hurts my head.
gaah! formatting gremlins are attacking me
Posted by: Ichthyic | October 1, 2008 9:16 PM
Seems likely.
I was guessing Phan(atical) R(ight-wing) N(utters)!
Trying to make sense of a lunatic’s ramblings hurts my head. – SC
I think that’s the idea, roughly – we’re not supposed to understand all the acronyms and neologisms, because in J’s mind, this shows how much cleverer than us he is. I don’t think he is a lunatic, in the sense of being psychotic; I’ll stick with narcissistic personality disorder as a provisional diagnosis.(I’m not sure this is really any more scientific than saying he’s selfish, nasty and extremely conceited!)
‘night all! Cheerio J – mind you don’t get your head stuck as you go out the door!
Well, if you’re gonna get all technical and shit.
***
‘night!
Ironically a true sign of intelligence is the ability to communicate ideas effectively. By him posting in his own set of idioms, abbreviations and mock insults, he failed in the goal of effective communication.
Though even the coherent parts were lacking in any insight, so maybe it’s a good thing he obfuscated the rest of his babblings.
Bring some of the PhanCo gals
cheerleaders, maybe?
…btw, as to crackergate.com…
I decided to just play with it as I go. I’m just lobbing layout ideas, colors, content, etc., as I run across it.
I’ll be adding a lot of what was suggested in this thread later tonight.
I still plan on making this a “community” contribution, so I’ll eventually be making logins for anyone who is seriously interested in mucking with it, adding content, or contributing blog-like commentary (once that section is set up).
so, if feel like you want to jump in, or to toss out any comments, just shoot a msg to the email i posted up earlier.
Is there cooperation among plants?
Is there cooperation among plants?
hmm.
I’d have to say that strictly behaviorally speaking, no (any botanists in the house feel free to argue otherwise).
but there IS mutualism of several types.
Hmmmmmmmm…I can’t think of a single example. I’d love to be wrong, though.
I googled ‘altruism in plants’ and found one real-world example.
LOL my memory is gone. Now I even remember asking for a reprint of that paper when it came out.
still, there was a LOT of argument as to whether kin recognition by itself is sufficient to label it “altruism” in the behavioral sense.
it’s on the “cutting edge” so to speak.
…in fact, for those that know my history on PT, you might have guessed I had something to say about it at the time.
:)
Well but it’s not so much that they recognized kin, but rather that they backed off on competitive root growth in the presence of kin. Pretty cool.
*contented sigh*
I love this blog. Thank you all.
So nothing like biofilmish?
Since plants do a lot of chemical signaling (and chemical warfare with other plants and insects), it would be interesting to know the signal. It could even be from a specific symbiotic bacteria in the roots. Science–always something new to learn.
There is altruism among crackers. The one at the top of the package always submits to being eaten first, in a brave attempt to save its kin.
On the other hand, if the one holding the box is Cthulhu, maybe it’s selfishness.
Never mind!
Hi, Kseniya!
I was just wondering earlier today where you’d been.
Hi, SC. :-)
Thanks. I figured everyone had forgotten about me by now. I’ve been away from the blogs for a month or so. Real Life was kicking my ass for a while, and not it’s just busy, but either way, I needed a break from the relentless merry-go-round of creationism, politics, and religion. It all started to look the same, and there was nothing left to say that hadn’t been said a hundred times before, and nothing ever changed, and the supply of trolls and dogmatic fundies appears to be infinite. I haven’t left a meaningful comment in at least a month (some might say “years” but let’s not go there) and though I’ve left the occasional drive-by comment, I really haven’t been here much, not even lurking. I do miss it, but I needed to get away. It was just too… distressing, aggravating, depressing, annoying, you name it. I can’t even stand to read the news anymore.
It was a tough summer anyway. I was forced into the role of “breadwinner” again, thanks to a layoff at my dad’s company, so my compulsive need to be responsible and be the family hero kept me pretty busy all summer. My two brothers weren’t much help, unfortunately. Now it’s over, things are back to normal, but I feel worn out, and it seems like I missed the summer completely.
Ah well. At least everyone’s healthy, my dad got a good job a few weeks ago, and nobody’s firing mortar shells into my neighborhood. Life is lush, I tell you.
Not everyone! Great to see your shining pixels again.
<clinton>I feel your pain!</clinton> I’ve been uncharacteristically (some might say “blessedly”) quiet around here myself, owing to having spent nearly two weeks working away from my normal daytime desk/computer. For good or ill, though… “I’m baaaaaaack!”
Kseniya — The Kseniya — wrote:
Pfft. You are officially Omni Memorable. And if you forgot, well, I think more than a few things Ought to act as Mementos. Such as, for example, Orange Marmalade, Oval Mirrors, and October Maples. And perhaps even (this being Pharyngula), Octopus Movies.
…and Owl Mirrors?
Summary of J.’s arguments:
1. Display only a superficial understanding of every topic you mention
2. Constantly point out how much smarter you are than everyone else (because no one would notice otherwise – wonder why?)
3. ???
4. Profit!
Whoever mentioned the DSM criteria for Narcissistic P.D. is probably on the right track.
I used to think and argue exactly like J. is now. And when I think back about that period of my life, a self-diagnosis of N.P.D. is always my semi-humorous way of summing it up.
Liberally salting my arguments with as many technical terms as I could throw in was always one of my classic strategies to try and demonstrate how much smarter I (thought) I was than everyone else. And lo and behold, what do we see J. doing?
I’ve since learned that an idea that can’t be communicated in clear, simple language probably isn’t developed enough to be worth communicating.
Random quotes I thought were fun, his posts are just so full of stuff to pick on it’s useless to grab it all:
“Some species show altruistic behavior at times: some don’t.”
Yeah, and? ‘Some species have fins and some don’t, therefore fins don’t fit into evolutionary theory.’
“And what’s more, the Crab Nebula we see is what it was some millions of light years ago.”
Barring the fact that the crab nebula is certainly not millions of light years away, seeing something as it was ‘millions of light years ago’ doesn’t even make sense. A light year is a measurement of distance, not time.
Bullseye!
And nice to see Kseniya again — *wave*
If only he could have figured out step 3.
Hi Kseniya,
Great to see you back! I know what you mean about needing a break from the endless parade of trolls here, but missing the place too. I’ll be away for two weeks soon (family holiday in Spain, visiting my brilliant former PhD student and some Moorish historical sites), and hope to return a kinder, gentler commenter! (Well, a bit.)
few things Ought to act as Mementos
don’t forget the Shakespearean insult generator that was used so well for the Kennybot,
Thou tottering crook-pated clotpole!
J @ #469:
Nonono. Theism, in general, should be the target, and not restricted to monotheisms. The (so far as I know) entirely-invented-for-this-occasion Bongobongo of the Congo and his celestial and infernal cohorts should be just as derisible (derision X risible; ala Lewis Carroll) as any of the Big Boys.
Well, frack! I got so wrapped up in the joy of word creation that I plum forgot the whole rest of the post! Okay, post 601b:
The point is that while Bongobongo and the Big G are on the same level, as far as having any real existence goes, B’s temples are not strewn around on every street corner in these U S of A, and for that matter, neither are Allah’s, or Shiva’s, or Apollo’s. Why would you expect anyone to go after Bongobongo’s paltry-and-hypothetical temples, clergy and adherents when he’s such a scrawny little fish in the local sea? Take care of the big sharks, and if the little fish don’t take care of themselves, we can always harpoon them later.
Take care of the big sharks
O.o
what exactly do you mean by that? bloody fish genocide is what THAT is.
:P
I can only assume it’s so we can all have nice delicious shark for dinner.
It’s been a while since I’ve eaten shark actually, I should look to do it again soon.
Hi again, everyone.
Thanks, Owlmirror, I almost forgot. :-)
My favorite J moment:
J: The witch hunts weren’t important. Only 60,000 people were executed, and that’s nothing in the course of human history. Lots more people die in wars, sometimes in a single battle.
Me: By the numbers, that’s true, but the witch hunts weren’t comparable to a war, so comparing raw numbers is misleading, even meaningless. If the witch hunts were to happen again today on the same scale, adjusting for population differences between then and now, we’d be seeing two or three hundred people being arrested, tried, and executed in Europe (excluding Russia) annually, for an imaginary crime. These hundreds of executions would continue, year after year, for three hundred years in a row. This, in an era where the most bloodthirty penal system in the western world – here, in the United States – hasn’t executed more that thirty people in a single year for over forty years. The witch hunts cannot be dismissed as socially or historically insignificant by the numbers alone.
J: The witch hunts weren’t important. Only 60,000 people were executed, and that’s nothing in the course of human history. Lots more people die in wars, sometimes in a single battle.
Me: ** headdesk **
It’s been a while since I’ve eaten shark actually, I should look to do it again soon.
watch it, sonny!
just…
watch it.
:P
seriously, though, spewing off some Ichthyological Ecology for ya all; sharks are a horrible, horrible source for commercial fisheries. They breed and grow extremely slowly compared to just about any bony fish you can imagine, and every shark fishery to date has basically gone belly up due to overfishing in less than a decade.
I personally watched Cal. Fish and Game and NMFS open a commercial fishery for angel sharks in California, against the well informed opposition of EVERY fisheries biologist worth a damn, in the mid 80’s. In less than 5 years, it became a defunct fishery as angel sharks became so rare it wasn’t worth targeting them directly them any more.
…and that’s just one example of dozens and dozens from around the world.
The shark fin industry is especially hard on our finny friends, as they can just cut the fins off the sharks and dump the bodies overboard, thereby loading their boats with far more profitable “bits” and unfortunately wiping out an order of magnitude more individuals than they would have if fishing them for meat (there have been laws passed in the US to help prevent this, but they are meaningless for 99.999% of the international fisheries out there).
/rant
(Dunno if anybody’s still reading this thread, but…)
Cicely:
While I agree broadly that all theism is to be opposed, if we’re going to do any triage, I’d move monotheism to the head of the queue. It seems to me that the majority of the objective social harm caused by theism derives from (mono)theists’ conviction that they have access to a single immutable, inarguable Word of Truth™.
If, OTOH, the (multiple) gods you believe in can argue with each other (as they invariably do in polytheist mythology), it’s at least plausible to believe that humans can argue/disagree with god(s), too. Mythology is still mythology, of course; it just strikes me that polytheists are marginally less likely to be cocksure bastards willing to oppress others or even destroy the world in order to uphold The Truth.
Jus’ sayin’…
Kseniya:
Your takedown of J’s witch hunt argument is impressive, but please take better care of your head (at least get a padded desk). J isn’t worth the headache.
Bill Dauphin @ 607:
Well….I’m still here; I generally follow any thread I contribute to (however small and trivial my contribution may be; Caution: ego at work :) ) right up until it disappears from the easily-accessible pages.
You said:
I agree. This is in the category of “taking out the big sharks” (see how I go out of my way to make Ichthyic flinch another time?). But whatever they say (“they” being the “monotheistic” Christians), the more popularly-available brands of Christianity are polytheistic. 3 does not equal 1, no matter how much you squint at it. Or they are saying that their “one” god is schiz. And we all know that anyway.
Yah, me too.
Yah, me too! ;^)
And, completely tangential to the subject, how do you get the little TM as from Word Of Truth (TM)?
Cicely:
It’s & trade ; …but without the spaces (and don’t forget the semicolon.
I haven’t internalized HTML coding, but it’s usually pretty easy to find what you need with teh Googlez. Here is a list of codes for symbols, special characters, and Greek letters. As you’ll see, the general form is a word-label preceded by an ampersand and followed by a semicolon… and sometimes you can just guess at the label (e.g., “trade” for the trademark symbol or “spades” for ♠).
Of course (and speaking of ego) sometimes it’s so much fun to play around with this stuff that it tempts one to engage in Gratuitous Nonsense®!
Bill, thanks, I’m glad you appreciated my argument. I’d like to be clear, however, on why I succumbed to the *headdesk*. I thought I made a pretty good case for the social/historical significance of the death toll of the witch hunts by placing the numbers in a meaningful context, but that doesn’t make me incontrovertibly right, or deprive J of his right to disagree. It wasn’t that he disagreed, was that he cavalierly dismissed everything I’d written without actually addressing a single point.
It’s no big deal. I’m not losing sleep over it and, generally speaking, I don’t have the allergic reaction to J that some folks here experience, but it was a frustrating, throw-up-my-hands exchange.
Hot diggity pig! Thanks bunches, Bill! Why, just earlier today I could have really used that ≠ ! I’ll just tuck that table into a Favorites folder….
I’m not losing sleep over it and, generally speaking, I don’t have the allergic reaction to J that some folks here experience, but it was a frustrating, throw-up-my-hands exchange.
you might be mistaking this “J” for the previous J that you are more familiar with.
not the same person.
Shit. I lost track of y’ll.
Oh. Not the same person? Ok, I can believe that.
Is it sign of NPD to use a single letter as a handle on the toobz?
I have no idea to what you might possibly be referring, but I do not care, either, since only I say things that are understandable and are worthy of being said. Indeed, I have no need to converse with all the rest of you ilk, if you will not heed what I have to say.
aye, aye, cap’n.
:P
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