This has been a fun and informative meeting here in Atlanta — I also think my talk yesterday went well — but it has had one downside: we broke the internet. Practically everyone here has a laptop or two, and the hotel network has been rendered nearly useless in a major net traffic jam. Who would have thought that attending a computer science meeting would be like being cast away on a desert island? Oh, well, having the web reduced to a slow trickle is a kind of vacation, anyway.
That’s about to end, though. I’m getting ready to run off and catch a plane back to Yankee-land, where the interwebs flow freely like water, and I’ll catch up with all my email then (which will be an experience to dread, I’m sure), and will also restore the outflow of regular posting. Until then, use this thread to talk about whatever.
“Whatever.” Is the expression over-used?
@ #1 Whatever dude.
I like big butts and I cannot lie!
Ok.
[ADVERTISE HERE]
My place is for sale.
Meanwhile, i think I’ll advertise myself ;)
I think I don’t LOL enough.
Ill throw one out there.
I was disappointed at Obamas reaction to the New Yorker cover. It was clearly satire, and the best way to react when satire is directed at you is to laugh at it. When I heard the official reaction was that he thought the cover was offensive, I was disappointed. If it had been me, I would have difused the situation by making light of it. Pointing out that its a joke, and I get it.
I guess its similar to Hitchens treatment of religion. Its ridiculous, make fun of it. When you treat obviously silly issues with serious comments, you give the issues far more weight than they deserve.
Is it just me or are journalists getting dumber? Here is the first line from an AP news release titled “Police: ‘Greatest Dad’ shirt worn to sex meeting”:”
“A 33-year-old Michigan man is accused of wearing a “World’s Greatest Dad” shirt to a meeting for sex with what he thought was a 14-year-old girl.”
He was accused of wearing a shirt? Really? You mean he wasn’t accused of attempting to conduct child sexual abuse and using the Internet to attempt child sexual abuse? After all, that’s what he was arraigned for.
Maybe that’s how all those Catholic priests got away with buggering children; they weren’t wearing the right shirt.
@ #6
I’d agree, but the subject of the satire(Obama as a muslin/terrorist) is a subject that that’s already been thrown at him by the likes of Faux News.
Maybe it was meant to funny, but they hit on a sore spot.
Andres D.
Very witty stuff! Your comments are consistantly droll and sharp, though there are a couple of people here who can’t determine if a post is humorous unless an emoticon and “lol” are used….
I’m not sure if it’s been mentioned here, but there’s a new book about atheism coming out early next year. I received an email about it from the author, William Lobdell, last week. Here’s the first paragraph of the email:
I received the email because I had written to the author of the L.A. Times article at the time. I’m not affiliated with him an any way. I’ve no idea whether the book will be good or bad, although I may read it just because I’ve always been fascinated by deconvertion (sp?) stories.
The BBC’s “Bonekickers” Obama substitute wasn’t obviously satire. The programme is very bad all round though.
Does anyone know if the much-touted debate between Dinesh D’Souza and Christopher Hitchens has been posted online yet? (Not the one from October last – I think this one was held on Sunday 13th July – just a few days ago.)
Anxious, I am…
“I like big butts and I cannot lie!”
Then you should just LOVE Bill Donahue. He’s the biggest ass I know.
Since this is an open thread:
Bride of Shrek,
will you marry me ? Dunny door in a cyclone and all?
This is getting altogether too close to Douglas Adams’ nightmare vision of a robot party. Do people want punk that can be inserted robotically anyway?
#9 why, thank you.
/blushes
Josh West, they defiantly hit a sore spot, but the reaction from a candidate for president must always be a measured response. He can’t afford to allow an opportunity to show maturity and humility pass. Those are his two weak points in the political theater, Experiance and Wisdom (tm McCain and co)
He needs to show that the idea of him being a muslim is laughable. The idea that they are seeking the whitehouse to fill a ‘black agenda’ is laughable. Its just a joke, and should be treated as such.
Pierre
If you like deconversion stories, there’s a slew of them at Cliff Walker’s site, positiveatheism.com. Just plug deconversion into the site’s search window and it will take you to them.
Yankee land?
Anywhere close to Boston?
We have some great pubs here!
Ever had Watermelon Ale? its actually quite nice.
I cannot, however, reccomend the concord grape stuff. Its fainly purple and smells like Welches grape juice.
And the Cranberry ale is just plain dreadful.
Let us know when you are in the neighborhood!
Thank you kindly
Andres: I believe in giving props when they’re due.
Bride of Shrek: You mean there isn’t a MR. Shrek?
Clinteas: What’s a dunny door?
Well, here in Australia World Youth Day continues.
The good news is that the regulations that would have banned us from “annoying” them have been partly overturned by the courts – http://www.newmatilda.com/2008/07/16/how-annoying
We can now legally annoy them by handing out condoms or wearing a T-shirt of our choice.
This is a good thing, so the competition to make the most annoying one has not been in vain –
http://video.sbs.com.au/player/news/index.php?mmid=13332&chid=12&tabid=87
http://news.sbs.com.au/worldnewsaustralia/top_10_antiworld_youth_day_tshirt_slogans_550966
Meanwhile, there is plenty of fodder for annoying T-shirts as the Catholic clergy sex scandals continue, as does the official denial – http://www.smh.com.au/news/world-youth-day/pell-silent-on-blunder/2008/07/16/1216162910430.html
I read that LATimes article, and I’m not expecting much. Lobdell’s reasons for becoming religious were not very intellectual, and neither were his reasons for deconverting.
You Boston area pharyngulites are giving me Mass. envy.
Some of the T-shirt slogans are pretty good –
“You can fine me $5,500… But I still won’t believe in God”
“We close 300 roads so 300,000 can close their minds”
“Oh no, I stepped in Dogma”
Any more suggestions welcome!
Is anyone else in any way disturbed by a feeling of growing anxiety when we were kept waiting longer and longer for the first post of the day? Am I getting addicted to Pharyngula or PZ? Oh FSM, do I have a man-crush? Are we really all just uncritical minions, fallen under the spell of the Tentacled Overlord, as the Cathoids insist we are?
A moment for introspection…
It’s a good thing I’m going on vacation for a week with no internet access. I just kicked coffee; I don’t need another monkey on my back…
Doctor Horrible’s Sing-Along Blog is hilarious. :D
Well if you want something to chew on and probably get righteously angry about read this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cristina-page/hhs-moves-to-define-contr_b_112887.html
I for one find it less then thrilling. [/understatement]
Sigh. SIGH!
It’s a freakin’ cracker!!!
I rejoyced yesterday when I saw that the Aussies had been allowed to try to induce some sense into Corrupt the Youth Day. Good luck to you downunder!
Why you shouldn’t let your squid onto the sofa.
@ #24
“The bible is like a penis… they both get shoved down your throat by a priest”
“A religion is just a cult with more members”
“F*** me, you mean Jesus was a Jew?!”
“Too many Christians, not enough Lions”
“. . .and when the revolution came, all those who went around saying “when the revolution comes all people like you will be put against the wall and shot!” were put against the wall and shot. ”
Virgil,
Like the first one.
E.V. (#20)
“Dunny” is Australian slang for an outdoor toilet. So “bangs like a dunny door” is used to describe a woman who is very sexually active (as is “roots like a rabbit”).
It’s been eight days since PZ made his promise to fold, spindle and mutilate a “cracker”, and given the enthusiasm he’s received from the PZians we can assume that he’s received at least one consecrated host…so what’s the hold up?
How long does it take to make a peanut butter and host sandwich? You have everyone assembled and we’re waiting for the main event…it’s just a frackin’ cracker, right?
Let’s get with the program, PZ.
If PZ’s already received at least one “consecrated host”, may I humbly suggest that he bring an identical, though “unconsecrated” one, tell the viewers they will not know if either cracker is consecrated; and then proceed with burning them both.
Call me selfish but I really really do want to see the looks on the Catholic people’s faces when they watch that.
PZ, thought I’d torture you with more embarrassing idiocy from Rep. Michelle Bachmann, who says in regards to ANWR that “we are the Saudi Arabia of oil.”
Or, better still, he can continuously videotape the cracker for a week to ten days in a barely lit, damp environment (a cupboard, maybe?) and publish the increased-speed-version (really don’t know the term, sorry) on YouTube and show the people how the cracker rots and decomposes.
While at it, let me abuse a precedent (#4) and advertise myself :D
If PZ has gotten a consecrated host, he should do both DNA analysis (the genome of God!!), and he should try to clone it ushering in the second coming of Christ!!! Glory.
bellerophon really has something there. In that way, PZ can stretch out the anguish those silly Catholics will experience for days, and we can all enjoy a thorough laugh at their expense.
Melt the “cracker”!
I’ve been waiting for an open thread here, because I need advice from this august community: I’ve been itching to dig into some good popular science writing, but when I went to the bookstore the other day I was overwhelmed by the array of interesting-looking choices… and I was also painfully aware that, aside from the obviously pro-spiritual books, I’m not really well-equipped to sort the quackery from the good stuff.
Soooo… I thought I’d ask y’all for some book recommendations. As a matter of background, I’m fairly literate in science and technology, but no more than an educated layman on any scientific topic (my degrees are in English and Creative Writing). My particular interests are astronomy/astrophysics/cosmology, the science of the mind, and the general history of science, but I’m actually more interested in the quality of the writing than in any one subject: I’m looking for great writing about good science. Any thoughts? (Thanks in advance, BTW.)
Back on the crackers?
Ok, I dissent with the majority here, in that I don’t think PZ needs to desecrate a host to make any point.
I have issue with acquiring it through deceit. At some point, someone is deceiving someone, and I’m not so cool with that – besides, it’s the idea that needs to be addressed, not the crackers themselves.
I don’t think that much would be accomplished by (if you’ll forgive my borrowing a horrible play on words from the Russell’s Teapot webcomic) playing The Smashin’ of the Christ. We know that he’s capable of it, the cracker won’t defend itself, and nobody claims it will. Dissecting it won’t matter, as the theologians have covered all that with the babble about how it retains the “accidents” of its former nature. The only thing that desecrating a host shows is that you are not afraid to do so – and I doubt that’s really a point worth making.
My hope is that PZ has a plan that will be more than simply upsetting people – that will just cause resentment.
Attacking the actions of those who are assaulting someone over the host? Great!
Ridiculing the notions of accidents and transubstatiation? Superb!
Mocking the bizarre decision that gluten-free wafers can’t transubstantiate? Fine by me!
But acquiring a consecrated wafer through deception to smash it, for no other reason than to upset people? I don’t see the point.
I think that people have the right to believe that the host is special, even if they have no reasonable expectation that others will think so – and I wouldn’t destroy something someone else hheld as valuable simply to show them that I don’t think it is valuable. To me it reminds me of seeing beautiful spiderwebs laced with dew, and pointing them out to your friend, just to have some bully walk over and swipe them all down braying, “You love a spider.”
I am willing to respect the things that others believe are valuable, if they do not harm me. Their beliefs may be fair game – I don’t mind attacking beliefs.
My 2c.
Bill Dauphin #40 asked for books!
Umm I’m quite fond of Bill Byrson’s A Brief History of Nearly Everything, it’s not overly scientific so much as a historical over view of science; however it is very well written and just plain fun.
Those Catholic crackers are very dry. Before I eat one, I always put a little Miracle Whip on it.
Check out my blogs (both very much in their infancy):
http://creationistidiocy.blogspot.com
http://atheistwisdom.blogspot.com
Any comments/criticisms welcome.
Bill Dauphin (#40):
Anything by Carl Zimmer is eminently worthwhile, in my experience. I’m in the middle of Douglas Hofstadter’s I Am a Strange Loop (2007), and I’m finding it enjoyable — better, actually, than Gödel, Escher, Bach (1979). Richard Dawkins put a lot of nice pieces into the new anthology he edited, The Oxford Book of Modern Science Writing (2008), which I reviewed here. Fair warning: the book’s a bit heavy on biology, physics and cosmology, which has displeased some people but might be what you’re looking for.
I have not a tracking issue here on Scienceblogs. My wife and I, from home, access via different computers (and computer types) but through a singular router and cable modem. We cannot both post comments simultaneously otherwise we get the “You have too many postings” message. Evidentially it is reading the IP address of the modem or router and not the individual computers. I guess that is good for us in terms of security.
There’s something about firing a woman for the actions of her husband that strike me as unjust. If he sends out death threats to strangers, could he also be a wife-beater?
IMO, you’re missing the point entirely, Epinephrine.
PZ has brought great attention to himself and to this issue. He’s given several interviews and has reiterated his intentions repeatedly.
By not following through with his promises, PZ will, in effect have proved that it is indeed more than a “cracker”.
We don’t know that he is capable of it until he actually does it.
#6, I we should apply Poe’s Law to the cover of the New Yorker. It was meant to be parody but it wasn’t labeled as such and it should have been. Because in the cases of politics and religion, there are people out there who seriously believe your the content of the parody. I heard that 12% of American still think Obamma is a muslim. If the New Yorker labeled the picture with “This is how conservatives see Obamma” there wouldn’t be this controversy. There’d be another controversy but that’s a different issue.
Who could every be anxious about a D’Louza debate. Wow this is a big podium, I didn’t even need to wear any pants. And atheists are retarded because they don’t believe in God. Religion is good, just look at all the good it does.
Poll alert!
on http://edition.cnn.com/:
Quickvote
Should the Anglican church admit gay bishops?
People should check out The Giant’s Shoulders.
Great cartoon on your front page, #4.
This intentionally left blank.
RE: Obama’s mag cover
There are still some people who think that behind every joke there is some truth; or if you joke too much about something, it may very well have some truth to it. Besides, it wasn’t very funny. Imagine if the cover didn’t say “New Yorker,” but instead said “Fox News Magazine” or something like that (I don’t know any ridiculously right-wing propaganda mags). It could be taken any way, as a satire, or as a caricatured exaggeration of “reality” by a person who doesn’t know enough to discern.
I think a commenter at onegoodmove has it right.
@40 – books
That sounds like more fun!
I just finished Neil Shubin’s Your Inner Fish, it was pretty light, but entertaining. I can’t say I have much interest in astronomy/cosmology/astrophysics, so I can’t recommend anything in those areas.
I’d also like a good book on the science of the mind, despite my background being in neuroscience (or perhaps, because of my background?) I haven’t read anything on the subject lately.
One book that I thoroughly enjoyed (though a while back) was called Visual Intelligence
, by Donald D. Hoffmann; it examines how we see what we see, what the rules are for interpreting visual stimuli.
Hoffman builds up rules of vision by examining situations in which our interpretations fail – often exploring optical illusions to derive the hidden processes underlying visual intelligence. If you like reading about how the mind works and enjoy optical illusions, I highly recommend it.
Bill D,
Any of the “for the bright non-specialist” books by Steve Jones – geneticist, Prof at University College, London. And he’s funny with it. Probably start with Language of the Genes or In the Blood.
GEOFFREY SIMMONS SAYS WOW! A TREE!
———————————————————-
Geoffrey Simmons has coughed up another inane post over at the Discotute. In this one, he marvels that we actually have trees. From a prehistoric world of flat plants, how is it possible that a tree, complete with bark, root systems, and internal structure, could suddenly appear? All of these characteristics would have to have evolved at the same time. Therefore, scientists must be wrong.
Hmmm…I don’t recall scientists claiming that trees appeared suddenly out of nowhere. Sounds like a strawman argument to me. And when I think of the strawman, I think of the scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz and wonder (cue dream sequence) what it would be like if Simmons was hanging around with the Scarecrow as Dorothy came skipping along…
Just completely random: did anyone else know that McCain had given keynotes for the Discovery Institute? I was terrified but unsurprised to learn that. Why isn’t this issue talked up more by the mainstream media?
Lynnai (@42):
Thanks for the very quick response. I should’ve anticipated the Bryson recommendation and mentioned that I’ve already read it (I’m a big fan of all Bryson’s stuff; if you enjoyed Everything, you should check out In a Sunburned Country). Likewise, I’m pretty well up to speed on Simon Winchester (Krakatoa, A Crack in the Edge of the World, The Map that Changed the World), whose interests, like Bryson’s, span both science and the English language. Winchester also wrote (at least) two books on the writing of the OED, including the harrowing The Professor and the Madman. Both Bryson and Winchester are entertaining readers of their own work, which makes them especially rewarding to audiobook fans.
Epinephrine, I couldn’t have said it better (and was going to attempt it, until I came across your post here). The whole UCF situation is hilarious – but insulting a general religious belief is doing little more than entertaining yourself at the expense of others.
I’m not suggesting such beliefs deserve our respect (especially if we fail to believe in them). But the *people* who believe them do, to some extent. Imagine someone putting their cigarette out in your grandmother’s ashes…
Making fun of the easy targets requires little effort…
Obama did give a measured response to the cartoon. He said that it is insulting to muslims. Remember that the actual rumor was that Obama is a secret muslim, not that he is a member of Al Qaeda. So, for the New Yorker to equate muslim to terrorist (even if that was the intention of the smear) is irresponsible of them. Obama can now safely justify a critical comment of the cartoon for the sake of siding with a growing number of muslims upset at him for being offended at the “muslim” smear.
Plus, it involved his wife, and he has said time and time again that she is off-limits.
Geoffrey Simmons is less a straw-man argument, more an argument from utter idiocy. The man seems not to have noticed different kinds of plants at trees, and an attendant massive fossil record. Showing, quite clearly, that trees did not “appear suddenly out of nowhere”.
The Cracker Controversy has gotten the attention of some of the Higher Powers:
http://www.jesusandmo.net/2008/07/14/mass/
OT: I am aware of at least one internet tradition.
Bill re: Books
The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins. Brilliant stuff. Won some Royal prize when it was published, I guess. Should be on his CV.
Whatever? So I can advertise my class for Concealed Handgun Licenses in Texas? Alright: http://www.chl-tx.com.
BTW, I am not a Liberal (capital ‘L’), but I do find myself in occasional agreement with PZ. Except where he makes the implicit assumption that anyone who isn’t a Liberal (capital ‘L’) is a holy-book-thumping nutjob. Freethinkers come in all political persuasions, not just Liberal (capital ‘L’).
Should Obama’s wife be off-limits in the same way Hillary’s husband was? ;-)
Leave the cracker aloooooone! *sob*
If it was satire it was poorly done. Usually satire is best when spoofing stupidity. In this case the victims of stupidity were the subject of satire. I believe 12% of Americans believe that Obama is a Muslim. Over 30% believe that he was educated in a madrasa. Why, in an age when we are have access to information and yet seldom read for comprehension, would the New Yorker place this cartoon on their cover knowing that only a portion of the population will read the contents of the article.
Now this picture has been seen all over America and the world and only a small percentage have read it. There are those dim bulbs who will see this and have their erroneous beliefs about Obama reinforced.
Satire rule #1. Spoof the fools not the victims of those fools. The New Yorker screwed up.
(.)(.)
Ooh, since you mentioned a few books just now, you’ve jogged my memory.
I really liked Mauve, by Simon Garfield. Fascinating look at early organic synthesis and the importance of a rather odd discovery.
Salt: A World History by Mark Kurlansky, is a neat little book, though less science and more anthropological.
Oliver Sacks wrote several fun books: The Island of the Colour Blind; A Leg to Stand On (grr, I let someone borrow that one and never got it back); Uncle Tungsten; and his case studies in The Man Who Mistoook His Wife for a Hat and An Anthropologist on Mars.
I can’t seem to read any of this recent stuff without hearing Eddie Murphy say, “That ain’t no ordinary cracker!” That was from a routine in one of his 80’s stand-up movies, I think “Raw.” I had hoped to find a you-tube clip or something to refresh my memory of the routine, but had no luck. When I searched the google for “That ain’t no ordinary cracker,” PZ’s first eucharist post shows up #3. That ain’t no ordinary cracker!
Bill Dauphin
For the science of the mind, I’d recommend anything by V. S. Ramachandran (Phantoms in the Brain is in print now.) There are also several books by Oliver Sacks that are quite good as well(like The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat). They are both very entertaining writers as well.
“poorly done” barely gets into the New Yorker cover. It was so pathetically lame and weak that it skewers nothing. The targets of the satire (i.e. knuckleheads who believe the ‘Bama propoganda) won’t get it, and the intended audience is left unamused. IMHO, it wasn’t over the top enough.
So if you do satire, go whole hog, not half-measures. It’s like eating a fracker for the flavor.
For what it’s worth, as a long time reader of pharyngula, I think that we’ve done enough on frickin’ crackers -or at least PZ has. Point made, religious idiocy is just that. There seems little point in stirring them up on this blog; I’m sure we can desecrate the host somewhere else, and link to it from here, if, indeed, there’s any point to it at all.
After all, it’s just a tremendously silly idea which I think we pay too much lip service to. And the catholics are partly right; it would be a foolish person who deliberately “blashphemed” against islam.
Blasphemy may be a victimless crime, but it can still produce victims.
On a related note has anyone seen what I think is the best ever film about atheism/blasphemy – Luis Bunuel’s “The Milky Way”? In it two contemporary pilgrims confront a world in which everyone frames everthing in terms of pre-mediaeval arguments against three-in-one, transubstantion, and so on. And you get to see the real Jesus. Really. And they shoot the pope. PZ, if you’ve never seen this, look it up – it says everything about the current dispute. But please, let’s continue to laugh, and move on.
I have a suggestion to make.
I think the threat of desecrating a cracker is much more fun than the actual desecration of a consecrated Eucharist.
This is what I propose PZ should do :
1) by now the threat should be made very real
2) PZ should make it very clear that he has received at least one consecrated Eucharist, that he calls cracker one and show it
3) PZ should also buy N unconsecrated ones, ie cracker 2 to cracker N+1
4) every week, he should say : I feel like desecrating a cracker, but I won’t tell you which one I choose
5) and he should post a picture of a desecrated cracker on his blog
6) and he should terminate by asking the question : did I desecrate cracker 1 ?
The whole point is to keep the mistery going as long as possible. The whole idea is to try to maintain the threat as long as possible, without actually making the act real.
After a few weeks, the Catholics will go mad. But please note, that they still won’t know if PZ has really desecrated their holy cracker.
Jesus would roll over in his grave if he ever found out what the Bible and Christianity did to him.
Hi PZ,
Your talk did indeed go down well, in fact, more than that, it was excellently received. Thanks again for taking the time to visit us at GECCO. We’re in Montreal at the same time next year, with all the internet you can eat!
How about this. A journal club discussion had my lab considering a simple/working definition for epigenetics:
From a molecular standpoint, epigenetics consists of modifications to DNA or chromatin which changes gene expression.
Anyone care to disagree?
I know I shouldn’t bring his name up, but has anyone else noticed that
Polly PrissypantsMatt Nisbet is “alarmed” (yet again) over the damage to the “scienceblogs brand” that nasty PZ Meyers has wrought?:http://scienceblogs.com/framing-science/2008/07/on_pz_don_imus_atheism_and_ath.php
Aw, diddums.
[ (Hit the Road Cracker Jack and don’tcha come back
No more no more no more no more,
Hit the Road Cracker Jack and don’tcha come back no more) ]
What’d you say
[ repeat ]
Old relishun old relishun, oh you treat me so mean,
You’re the meanest old relishun that I’ve ever seen,
Well I guess if you say so
I’ll have to pack my things and go (that’s right)
[ repeat ]
What’d you say
[ repeat ]
Now churchie, listen churchie, don’t you treat me this-a way
‘Cause I’ll be back on my feet some day,
(Don’t care if you do, cause it’s understood,
You ain’t got no money, you just ain’t no good)
Well I guess if you say so
I’ll have to pack my things and go
(That’s right)
[ repeat ]
What’d you say
[ repeat ]
Well … ( don’tcha come back no more )
Uh, whud jou say? ( – don’tcha come back no more )
I didn’t understand you. ( – don’tcha come back no more )
You can’t mean that ( – don’tcha come back no more )
Aw now churchie, please. ( – don’tcha come back no more )
What you tryin to do to me!? ( – don’tcha come back no more )
… but it’s still just a friggin’ cracker!
Damn it, damn it. “Polly Prissypants” above was supposed to be struckthrough. OK, I’m the stupid. Can anyone tell me what the correct html is for that action? All the actions I use successfully for that seem not to work here on SB, and only here on SB. Is there something I’m missing?
negentropyeater,
Great idea.
A little variation. PZ can put the cracker no. 1 into a pile of other crackers and pick one at random from that pile everyday and burn it.
Just a little added anxiety there.
I can’t help but think about the two caskets Hezbollah just delivered to a “prisoner exchange”. I’m trying to remember the last time I heard of something quite so douche-baggy.
#78 I disagree. Epigenetics is the change in gene expression without changes in DNA. As a general case, Zimmer discusses in his new book that identical clones of E. Coli have different behaviors when subject to the same environmental stimulations. So, it must not be DNA that is strictly the cause of their actions.
I think PZ should keep control of the situation, it shouldn’t be random I think. It gives him more possibilities to play with the threat later on.
PZ, have you considered using another authentication method or perhaps a blog commentary service like Disqus? I can’t even imagine how you do all this blogging and teaching and ALSO moderating and troll and hater abatement :-)
Books for Bill Dauphin (#40):
Check out any of the books from the Science Master series. They are great introductory books written by some of today’s best science authors.
Some other good ones:
The Ancestor’s Tale – Richard Dawkins
Dinosaur in a Haystack – Stephen Jay Gould
The Elegant Universe – Brian Greene
The Large, The Small and The Human Mind – Roger Penrose
Metamagical Themas – Douglas Hofstadter
Also, check out any of Isaac Asimov’s popular science books. By awakening my interest in science at a young age, he probably did more to make me an atheist than any other person.
What a brave little girl!!
What a sick little world…
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/07/15/yemen.childbride/index.html
And apparently some carry guns.
For some reason I don’t believe you’ll get many takers / customers looking for instruction and certification for carrying a concealed handgun. (BTW – are there footguns?)
BTW – if you need to prove proficiency to obtain a driver’s license, why is proof of proficiency for a gun so onerous to many? I’m in the camp of gun control is hitting the target, but I also believe in responsibility.
Bill (#40):
Let me suggest “The Red Queen: Sex And Evolution Of Human Nature” by Matt Ridley and “Guns, Germs And Steel” by Jared Diamond.
The first few chapters of “The Red Queen” are a bit slow (he talks mostly of parasitism) but when he moves to humans and human behavior, it’s fascinating.
The question that “Guns, Germs And Steel”‘s tries to answer is why, if 14000 years ago humans lived on all continents with the same degree of technology, it was Europeans that invaded North America with sail ships, gunpowder and armor in the 1500s and not the other way around.
@Jams, might I suggest you re-word your phraseology so we aren’t left with a douche baggie? Just sayin’…
Bill Dauphin
I’ll just reel off a list, as it is difficult to know exactly what suits your tastes, or what you have already read:
1. Einstein, His Life & Universe (Walter Isaacson):
Isaacson is a brilliant writer and this is a brilliant book. It’s probably the best that I have read about Einstein.
2. Evolution – The Triumph of an Idea (Carl Zimmer):
For the layperson, you probably can’t find many better primers about evolution.
3. Consciousness and Cognition (Michael Thau):
This book has essays by Owen Flanagan, David J. Chalmers, Stephen P. Stick,and many others. It is principally concerned with the philosophy of the mind as opposed to science, but it will make you think, nevertheless.
4. The Logic Of Scientific Discovery (Karl Popper):
An oldie but goodie. This is a classic in the history of science.
5. Gravity’s Arc – The Story of Gravity, From Aristotle to Einstein & Beyond (David Darling):
This is very well written, and in my humble opinion, with flair and a passion for the subject matter.
6. Galileo in Rome – The Rise & Fall of a Troubled Genius (William R. Shea and Mariano Artigas):
This reads like a novel which is a real strength. It is both well written and well researched, as well as an extremely enjoyable read.
7. Second Nature – Brain Science and Human Knowledge (Gerald M. Edelman):
The opening blurb:
“THIS BOOK WAS PROMPTED by my efforts, desultory and otherwise, to understand how progress in brain science bears on issues of human knowledge. The results of my thoughts on these issues are couched in more lenient and heterogeneous terms than those of philosophers dedicated to traditional epistemology. I consider this difference to be a useful starting point for further explorations of how we know.”
8. The Emerald Planet – How Plants Changed Earth’s History (David Beerling):
This is a fascinating book about how plants have driven much of the development of the planet.
9. A History of Mathematics From Mesopotamia to Modernity (Luke Hodgkin):
This is a fairly comprehensive history which doesn’t simply rush through each new ‘breakthrough’, but focuses on the human stories and lays the foundations, so to speak.
10. Science in the Looking Glass – What Do Scientists Really Know (E. Brian Davies):
This is a nice book and it manages to squeeze a lot of scientific knowledge in to roughly 300 pages.
Right, I will stop at ten. :-) There are many more that I could have recommended (particularly about evolution), and these are really just off the top of my head. Most of the books that I own that are concerned with cosmology and physics, etc, are fairly technical, and I am not suggesting that you either wouldn’t enjoy them, or couldn’t understand them (how would I know?), only that they do not correlate with your request.
Guy. I’m in Atlanta. I’m attending and presenting at a science conference here. The cracker nonsense has a very, very, very, very low priority for me, despite all the noise from the Witchfinder General Bill Donohue.
You can’t imagine how trivial I find communion crackers. I don’t feel any pressing need to rush to crumble them.
If an unconsecrated cracker is sealed in a box, and then we get a priest in a sealed room and hook him up to a device which sends a mild yet stimulating electric shock whenever a nucleus of a U235 atom decays, causing him to then consecrate the cracker. Theoretically the cracker is both the body of christ and a normal cracker at the same time.
Great all I need now is a priest, and an ordinary bottle of household ammonia!
Olivia Judson wants to retire the word Darwinism.
Gary #43
Perfect!
:)
As the two main themes in this thread seem to be crackers and mag covers, I will happily advertise that you can read about both on my blog, Gnash Equilibrium.
Wafers of Mass Destruction (Defending Webster Cook, this time from civilized, non-violent critics.)
A Nation of Whino Comedians (This one gets to the New Yorker cover in the last two paragraphs.)
You can also find my letter of support for PZ there.
P.S. Not all of the blog is as serious as these 3 posts.
Wait. wait…
If PZ gets a consecrated cracker and hooks it up to a schrodingers-cat-omation device, so that it is destroyed when an atom of U235 decays, then he has effectively descrated and not desecrated the body of christ at the same time.
Would you go to Limbo for that?
Put the host in a small cave with a stone covering the opening, and set up a security camera.
I foresee we will see this argument in theology books yet to be written:
“In 2008, a heathen professor said he would desecrate a consecrated host, but didn’t. This proves that the host is not just bread, but the Risen Body of Christ.”
Par for the course, I guess.
I’m having a bit of trouble understanding how (or when) the Desecration of the Cracker became such a very, very, very low priority PZ.
Somehow during the past several days, you’ve managed to find time to give several news interviews and to appear on at least one radio show to promote the “big show”, and as recently as two days ago you reiterated your firm intention to follow through with your promise.
You’re not having second thoughts, are you PZ? It’s still just a cracker, right?
About books: I am reading Proust was a Neuroscientist (the author is a ScienceBlogger), and I really wanted to like it, but I don’t think it’s very good. Apparently George Eliot disproved genetic determinism and showed that nerve cells regenerate?? The chapter on French chefs and the discovery of umami is fun though.
Fabric of Reality by David Deutsch is good even if you are not willing to accept everything he says about multiverses and the fate of the universe.
Andrés Diplotti@99
On the other hand, if he does desecrate a cracker, we’ll see something like:
“In 2008, a heathen professor desecrated a consecrated host. However, in 20##* he died. This proves that the host is not just bread, but the Risen Body of Christ.”
*I’m assuming here that PZ lives a long life, but that contra Ray Kurzweil, the rapture of the nerds is not near.
Second thoughts? No. I commit sacrilege casually.
Others are much more concerned about it than I am. I get lots of calls to discuss the issue, and I simply answer forthrightly. It’s just a cracker, people. Treat it like one. Do not center your life around either veneration or desecration.
(I think the number of links in my last comment triggered a spam filter to hold it in a queue for moderation, but if you just follow the link in my signature you’ll find that the last 3 posts there are about crackers and mag covers, which seem to be the themes of this comment thread.)
Thanks to everybody for the book recommendations; keep ’em coming. Some of them, I’m happy to say, serve to confirm my good taste: I’ve already read not only Bryson’s survey, but also Sacks’ Anthropologist on Mars (audio; Sacks is also a good reader) and Diamond’s Guns, Germs and Steel (listened to the audio twice; currently [re]reading the paper version). And while I was staring at the overstuffed shelf in my bookstore, I came this close to bying Dawkins’ Oxford anthology. I’m looking forward to digging in on y’all’s suggestions.
One other question: Any recommendations for good fiction (and not necessarily genre SF) that either uses science as a key plot element or is set in the world of science?
GunOfSod (@94 & 97):
New addition to my list of prospective band names: Schrodinger’s Eucharist.
GunOfSod:
OK, OK, it’s official. You win the Internet.
Lavender wine = liquid Vogon poetry.
Hey everyone, I’m getting married in August and I’m looking for a reading for the ceremony. Does anyone have any suggestions? I’ve been looking for something from Carl Sagan, but I haven’t had any luck. Any ideas?
Bill Dauphin@105
A Game with Sharpened Knives by Neil Belton.
A fictional account of Schrödinger’s sojourn in Dublin during WW2. Very enjoyable and atmospheric, however, avoid if Schrödinger happens to be a personal hero and you want to keep your illusions!
Bill Dauphin (#105):
Lately, I’ve been growing enthusiastic about Greg Egan’s more recent work — it is, as they say, “hard SF”, but if you want to see “No Celebrities Were Harmed” versions of Alan Turing and C. S. Lewis debating whether machines can think, you’re in luck. Of course, Turing has the advantage that a gynoid from the future (or a future) has come back in time to save the world. . . .
Incidentally, Schrödinger was a Protestant!
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=31615
PZ may want to test the cracker to verify that it contains gluten.
There was a controversy a few years ago over a Catholic girl’s first communion. The Eucharist she received was declared invalid as the wafer was made of rice.
The girl suffered from celiac disease. This is a disease which the ingestion of gluten causes damage to the small intestine.
The above link contains details of this story from the Catholic World News.
You know, PZ, you really are a sweet and kind guy for not wanting to show us more of the threatening emails you receive, and it is nice of you to tell the press you wish Melanie Kroll hadn’t lost her job over an email….
But, seriously, I wish you’d post every single threatening email you received. Maybe if 1000 religious nutters lost their jobs because of the threats they were making over a cracker, it would teach them something about religious violence. I’m serious, if we let them off for making threats, then what if some nutter actually follows through against someone? Against you, Dawkins, Sam Harris maybe? I think it’s better to out every last one of them – and if that means they lose their jobs, then so be it.
Twilight: if 1000 religious nutters lost their jobs, it would make 1000 more jobless and bitter religious nutters likely to decide that they have nothing better to do than to proceed with their threats. Especially if they blame PZ for losing their jobs. Maybe it’s better for PZ NOT to post the threats.
That’s what makes it fine, except to the most uptight Catholics.
I’d like to see the wafer in the mouth of a Buddha–I don’t know if any Buddhas have their mouths open, though. I bet Buddha the man would have been happy enough to eat it.
Or as part a Christmas ornament–baby Jesus could be on it in some fashion.
As an offering to cthulu it might be nice. Hey, he could use some magical “goodness”, if indeed said cracker has that vaunted quality.
It could be placed in some fierce battle with another magical object, like crystals or pentagrams.
Subjecting it to Dembski’s EF might be fun (especially up against something more precisely “fashioned” but completely “natural”, like a cube of iron pyrite or gold), though I don’t suppose you really need the physical cracker for that.
These aren’t suggestions, I’m just saying that I’d not be averse to “desecrating” the cracker in such ways. It’s a silly thing, a silly idea, and I look forward to seeing it look even sillier.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
“Irreligion” by John A. Paulos – a waste of my money. Can’t even finish the thing. :(
As a recent follower of your blog, it’s good to hear the previous lack of posts is not typical.
Not to be derivative or anything, but riffing off previous suggestions… This might satisfy PZ’s purpose AND mollify the Pollypants contingent:
So, OK, what if PZ gets a cracker and mixes it into a bag of the same brand of crackers. Then he can proceed to desecrate all the crackers but one, and send that one remaining cracker back to the Catholic Church with a note that it might be the transsubstantiated one… or it might not… and ask them to figure out which. Showing their work, of course….
Geoff, I think you’d like something from Ingersoll. I’ll look up the passage I have in mind.
Kenny P:
Sorry, but you really need a new tag. I gag reflexively everytime I come across a K.e.n.n.y… That wingnut troll has ruined that name for readers here.
You may become a victom of friendly fire…(anti-troll flaming).
Cheers.
Ah, here it is… from the end of his essay “Why I Am an Agnostic”:
Let us be true to ourselves — true to the facts we know, and let us, above all things, preserve the veracity of our souls.
If there be gods we cannot help them, but we can assist our
fellow-men. We cannot love the inconceivable, but we can love wife and child and friend.
We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know. We can tell the truth, and we can enjoy the blessed freedom that the brave have won. We can destroy the monsters of superstition, the hissing snakes of ignorance and fear. We can drive from our minds the frightful things that tear and wound with beak and fang. We can civilize our fellow-men. We can fill our lives with generous deeds, with loving words, with art and song, and all the ecstasies of love. We can flood our years with sunshine — with the divine climate of kindness, and we can drain to the last drop the golden cup of joy.
Find the rest of Ingersoll’s works at http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/ There are lots and lots of gems there.
The Jack Chick tract on “Magic Cookie” is hardcore. Why hasn’t Donahue and the Catholic League of Justice (“WONDERTWINS POWER ACTIVATE!! -FORM OF A JESUS! SHAPE OF A COOKIE!”) gone after that asswipe?
Nick (@112):
Not for nothin’, but most protestant churches celebrate the Eucharist, and many of them (esp. the old-world churches) have beliefs about it that are very close to, if not identical to, those of the Roman Catholic church. Even the Lutherans, AFAIK, believe that the body and blood are “objectively present” in the Eucharist. (To me, the difference between what the Lutherans believe and transubstantiation, which they explicitly reject, seems arcane, but then I’m neither a theologian nor a Lutheran.)
Kenny P (@113):
I can’t speak to that story, but I know the parish my wife attends does offer gluten-free hosts, though you must arrange for them in advance with the priest. My wife’s gluten sensitivity is relatively mild and her mass attendance is not regular enough to accommodate the required advance notice, so she usually doesn’t bother.
It’s true enough that a lot of the “poetry” surrounding the Eucharist makes specific reference to wheat, but in my (admittedly limited) experience, mainstream middle-class American catholics are surprisingly non-anal-retentive about stuff like that. They may hold the Eucharist in bizarre (to us) mystical esteem, but they don’t typically geek out over the precise recipe for the wafer (in fact, I’ve even been in parishes that used leavened bread!). It’s the ultra-traditionalists and religio-political radicals who get their knickers in a knot over how many wheat grains can dance on the head of a pin.
@ #40 / #106
George Gamow: “Mr Tomplkins In Paperback” (= “Mr Tompkins In Wonderland” + “Mr Tompkins Explores The Atom”)
Edwin A.Abbott: “Flatland”
#14 clinteas:
Bride of Shrek is already married.
Bill Dauphin (@59)
Actually my introduction to Bryson’s work was In a Sunburned Country on Audiobook so I think that mkae me the choir here. *grins*
Simon Winchester sounds interesting and if you say he does good audiobook I’ll certainly put him on my to find list, I’m always looking for good audiobooks. (I have a job that uses my hands more then my brain for long stretches.)
As usual the typo is only visible after pressing send! In case it isn’t obvious from the other examples, Tomplkins = Tompkins.
Failing that, he could give it to Ganesha.
“Please do not offer my god a cracker.”
Speaking of Barack Obama, a chiropractor in Auburn, CA put up this sign at his office on July 4:
http://www.sacbee.com/101/story/1086044.html
Additional quote:
My take: Par for the course. He’s a chiropractor. He lives in a very conservative county. And even at that, most locals think he’s a crackpot.
More Cracker stuff. It is not the atheists who are holding the cracker hostage. It is the church.
“This “bottom-up, personal responsibility” message, as he describes it, appeals to Kmiec, allowing him to be not just a McCain skeptic but also an Obama supporter. That decision has not come without a cost — this spring Kmiec was denied Communion by a priest who denounced his endorsement of Obama. But with Catholics almost twice as likely to name the economy, Iraq and terrorism as their top concerns over abortion and gay marriage, Kmiec has plenty of company. Come November, that priest may be holding on to a very full bowl of wafers.”
This is the bottom paragraph from this story:
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1819897,00.html
So if you don’t back the people that the church tells you to back, you can’t have the magic cracker and get into heaven.
I think if the church is turning into a political action group, they should have to pay income taxes.
#14 clinteas:
Bride of Shrek is already married. -Shrek
pwned
Re #79: My offer to start a betting pool on when Nisbet flounces out of Scienceblogs still stands.
As to the cracker, perhaps we could start a web site showing the cracker in front of various landmarks around the world, sort of like was done with “kidnapped” garden gnomes.
To Bill Dauphin, #124
Letter to the Presidents of the Episcopal Conferences from the Vatican. I’ve bolded the bits referring to non-gluten wafers (not allowed), and that celiacs can’t be admitted to Holy Orders.
More evidence of evolution in action.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7506157.stm
—–excerpt follows—–
“Stewart put himself forward for Make My Body Younger’s “living autopsy”.
Extensive tests
Every inch of Stewart’s body was examined and his vital organs were tested. ….
…
One of the most shocking moments for Stewart, Donella and his family was when his brain age was revealed, following a series of cognitive function tests.
Stewart is only 25 but all his hardcore partying resulted in a brain age of 68.
Donella’s shock at him “having the brain of a pensioner” was something his entire family shared.
Fertility under threat
But for Stewart the greatest surprise was the state of his sperm.
Due to his excessive partying lifestyle, Stewart’s fertility test showed his sperm had 91% deformed heads.
This left a serious question mark over his fertility as normal fertility allows for less than 70% deformed heads.
Stewart was left stunned by the news. “The sperm one was shocking, really bad,” he said. “I was close to tears.”
—–end excerpt——
“My brain: it’s my second favorite organ”
Woody Allen – Wikiquote
@Epinephrine:
I completely agree with your point: PZ Myers, after all the fun with cracker, now what?
Every catholic that heard about the incident “knows” that there are increasing numbers of atheists that are raving lunatics that want to create havoc.
Of course, most catholics (I know several that border on the fanatic) do not buy the transubstantiation idea. But they are not swayed to our side with this “discussion”. And a huge part of the Christians are not Catholic, and do not believe in it either. They also feel the attack, not the education.
The message should be one of understanding, not one of desire to harm.
Laughin_Guy asked:
If I got death threats aimed at me I’d be very careful how I went ahead with such plans. It would be a shame to waste the attention he is getting, but using that attention to good effect is hard to figure out.
SEF (@125):
Somewhere in my unruly bookshelves I have a copy of Gamow’s One, Two, Three … Infinity, which my father gave me, and I read, when I was in grade school. I don’t recall whether I ever read the Mr. Tompkins books, but the titles are familiar to me. I read Flatland in high school, and I’m sure I have a copy of that around the house as well. Time to re-read them, no doubt….
Lynnai (@127):
Unfortunately, Bryson doesn’t read the unabridged audiobook of Everything, only the abridged version. I normally hate listening to abridgements, but Bryson’s performance of his own work is good enough that I broke my own rule on that one. I listened to that book and Winchester’s Krakatoa both on one long cross-country trip (car trips and audiobooks are a match made in heaven!), and it was fascinating to listen to the two different versions of the history of geology (Winchester studied geology at Oxford before becoming a journalist and author).
Winchester’s new book ™ The Man Who Loved China, about Joseph Needham ™ looks interesting; I’ll have to check audible.com when I get home to see if it’s out as an audiobook.
My wife is knitting you an octopus. I picked out the yarn. It’ll be blue.
#132 – E.V. – Don’t count Clinteas out just yet. Bride of Shrek is a slut remember? She may be into polyamory.
Oh the suspense! ;)
D’Oh!! In my last (@138), ™ (twice) should have (obviously) been —! Serves me right, I suppose, for trying to be an HTML smartypants.
You may ask yourself:
Who will take care of my pets after the Rapture?
So a totally innocent woman got fired over this? Way to go, mob.
Anyone catch the HomeRun Derby the other night? The commentator Steve Phillips ( on ESPN) was remarking how Hamilton was a recovering drug addict, turned his life around etc etc etc. ANyway, he’s hitting his 20something HRs, and Phillips goes on to say how he found God etc then ends his tirade with “It’s a bad night to be an atheist in New York”. So, I am thinking what irony it would be if Hamilton, after hitting 28 HRs , were to lose. Sure enough, he lost. No metion of God then. Go figure.
I like bacon.
I’ve got fresh eggs.
Patricia:
Polyamory raises the fun quotient exponentially, but only if Mr. Shrek is into it too, or at least supportive. Who knows, perhaps they agree with Dr. Pangloss and pursue the best of all possible worlds (as well as the geometric possibilities). The more, the merrier – as long as you use a good lubricant…
I like bakin’.
Bill @ 40:
The Canon, by Natalie Angier, is a good overview of physics, astrophysics, biology, chemistry and other sciences, written for non-scientists. Her style is very engaging.
Is the Eucharist radioactive? That is, does the Jesus isotope have a short halflife?
Is this the REAL reason why the priesthood insists that it be eaten quickly: if all the Jesus isotopes decay back to ordinary wafer isotopes it loses its whammy?
If so, then PZ better make sure he gets access to a mass spec machine if/when the Chracker shows up, in hopes of detecting the small remaining faction of non-decayed Jesus particles.
(Hmmm… And maybe the image on the Shroud of Turin was flashed onto it by decaying Jesus particles.)
Actually it was Rick Reilly. I wrote about it on my blog.
He’s a douche
MORE Kracker Komix:
http://cectic.com/169.html
Thanks Rev. He sounds just like Phillips.
I make my own bacon.
We should combine these things.
Epinephrine@134
So, God hates people with celiac disease? Still, I suppose we already knew that – why else would he give them celiac disease?
I thought it was Phillips too when I heard it.
The totally innocent woman is married to the totally guilty man. Don’t shoot the messenger.
I don’t think PZ should eat the cracker unless he is very sure of its source.
I wouldn’t put it past a thumper to poison a cracker and send it hoping he would eat it with peanut butter or some other such thing. Then they could claim god killed him for his sacrilege.
Maybe crush it in his hand, drop it on the floor and sweep it up with the rest of the dirt and into the trash with it. The actions should be mundane though.
“So a totally innocent woman got fired over this? Way to go, mob.”
No, my logic challenged friend. Her husband used her company email account, for which SHE is liable. Just as my wife would be liable and subject to disciplinary action if I used her company laptop to email threats (especially if I used her email account) or downloaded porn or any other non policy activity. Due to her husband’s moronic actions, she too has to pay the consequences, unfortunately.
I’m sure Chuck is used to hearing “you stupid fucking idiot” from Melanie by now.
I propose a bumper sticker that all Catholics can use to recognize each other by: DO YOU SWALLOW?
Bakin’, bacon, ‘n’ eggs…
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I’m sure Chuck is used to hearing “you stupid fucking idiot” from Melanie by now. – E.V.
Actually, I doubt it. If it really was Melanie Kroll posting on Greg Laden’s blog, Chuck “always responds that way when he is upset”. Of course, it could be that his violence is merely verbal but still, I would imagine death threats across the dinner table can quite make you lose your appetite.
I propose we replace the term “sacred cow” with “sacred cracker”.
What do you all think this is? A truck that you just dump things on? Don’t clog the flippin’ tube.
Well, Officer, usually I dump stuff out of trucks, rather than “on” them, but that said, what part of
is confusing you?
Epinephrine (@134):
I’m not a canon lawyer, nor do I have any desire to even play one, however briefly, on teh intertoobz. It’s possible that I’ve mistaken our parish’s promise of low-gluten hosts for gluten-free ones… but I don’t really think so. It’s also possible that the doctrine has changed since 1994, when the letter you quote was written… but I don’t really think that, either (the letter’s author was Carnidal Ratzinger, now better known as Pope Benedict).
The more likely supposition — and this was really my point — is that local parishes just don’t worry that much about the letter of the law, any more than speed limits are strictly and universally enforced. For example, I believe the use of lay ministers to distribute the Eucharist is, according to the strict letter of the law, supposed to be reserved only for emergencies, when the priest(s) of the parish are incapable of handling the crowd. In practice, though, I’ve never seen a parish that didn’t use lay ministers, no matter how small and manageable the congregation.
My point is that most people are relatively pragmatic most of the time… even when it comes to practicing their irrational mystical rituals.
If I’m wrong about that… well, I don’t really care enough about the proper administration of the Eucharist to worry about it in any case.
Bake them biscuits! Chimpy’s home made bacon & fresh eggs. That bacon looks SOOOO good!
negoentropyeater just won my nomination for a Molly this month for post #75.
Truly evil Lovin’ it! :-D
Bill #166,
they have now approved 0.01% gluten hosts, compatible with most celiacs.
Where it gets even more ridiculous is that the church is seriously now wondering, “how low can we go” ? How are they going to determine that question ? They’re probably going to have to ask God the question, or something like that. Or are they just going to decide that as long as there is at least ONE molecule of gluten, then the host can fully transsubstantublobulblobate into the body of christ ?
Ah well, they’ll never stop to try to come up with some new imaginary story to get a few more worshippers.
Since Bill mentioned books, and all the authors I was going to recommend have already been recommended (Bryson, Diamond, Zimmer, Greene, etc.) I’d like to conduct a quick poll:
How many here were fans of Archie and related comics as children?
Of those, how many considered the Spire Christian Archie comics to be blasphemous perversions of Archie’s message of peace, love, and Chok’it Shoppe hijinxs?
Don’t know the Spire Christian Archie comics? Then you’ve been lucky up until now….
Bill Dauphin (@166)
I certainly wasn’t challenging you on whether your wife gets gluten free or low-gluten hosts, it was mostly in response to the story of a girl’s first communion being declared invalid, as the official take on the hosts would seem to support the story, at least making it quite plausible.
Yes, the majority of Catholics probably don’t worry about it, and for the majority communion is probably just a symbolic act – but it’s not bizarre splinter groups that are suggesting wackaloon nonsense, it’s the church itself.
Why have a ceremony at all? Why not celebrate just so?
—————–
Concerning good science writing, I recommend Unweaving the Rainbow by Richard Dawkins.
Assuming they’re sane to begin with.
Damn it Brownian! Thanks a lot for introducing my blissfully naive self to that unholy spawn of Veronica Lodge x Jack Chick.
That’s some sick and inappropriate proselytization right there.
Alas, poor Jughead; I thought I knew him well.
Now I gotta scrub out the memory banks.
aHA! I always knew the Rev. was a hedonist.
@#75
It could be presented as a version of the Monty Hall problem (possibly to their further confusion and annoyance, since that’s another thing over which people get strangely deranged).
Rev. BigDumbChimp do they make a lot of tomato gravy down your way?
Here’s an angle for the disposition of a sanctimonious, captive cracker: One side should be covered with cake frosting (white) and then both sides should have face features added, reminiscent of the two-faced biscuit of Frosted Mini-Wheats fame. Then the cracker is solidly affixed to Dr. Myers’ computer keyboard so that one side is facing the computer screen and the other side is facing PZ. Imagine if you can, a Jesus cracker (complete with two variations of forlorn facial expressions) being held captive, witnessing the frequent ranting of a godless heathen cephalopod overlord (from both sides, no less!). PZ could do one of his rants against superstition, gullibility and dogma, and then give a screen shot of the immediate reaction of one of the faces of his captive Jesus cracker (Oh horror!), like it was a web cam picture. All rather like he’s using his captive to literally judge when he’s hit the nerve he was digging for (basically a biopsy without anesthetic). Over time, as the whole cracker business begins to lose its shock effect, the facial expressions could be changed to reflect the wear and tear of the cracker’s soul, and ultimately, the cracker itself would be shown to be slowly crumbling. Also, the unfrosted side of the cracker could be displayed on screen for the warm months and the white frosted side could be shown during the winter months. The cracker face photo could be an icon on his website, like the red A.
I love posing it to the fellows at the pub after a snootful on an otherwise dull night when I feel like watching some fireworks.
#169:
It’s too late for that, they closed down the Limbo.
PZ advises: “Do not center your life around either veneration or desecration.”
Good, great…except two days ago you said:
I have to do something. I’m not going to just let this disappear…..Something will be done. It won’t be gross. It won’t be totally tasteless, but yeah, I’ll do something that shows this cracker has no power. This cracker is nothing.
So which is it, a powerless cracker that needs attention, or something you now wish would just go away?
I’m detecting second thoughts, PZ.
Here is my idea for how to deal with any and all wafers that might arrive at PZs home:
(Cracker desecration HOWTO?)
Things you will need:
1) Books (or websites) that are listed as references in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Host_desecration
(Don’t want to get messed up by any potential Wiki vandalism or typos)
2) A Sharpie permanent marker, preferably one with a calligraphic tip. You might also want someone with a good steady hand to do the writing described below.
3) About 20 candles or tapers.
4) A long table or shelf to hold the candles.
5) Cameras, still and video, that work well in low light. You might need the help of a professional/high-end amateur photographer/videographer.
6) About 20 wafers or so.
Photography Steps:
1) Using the references, and the Sharpie, write the dates and locations of the massacres and executions that resulted from accusations of host desecration on each of the wafers.
2) Place the candles on the shelf/table, spacing them evenly and widely, and place a wafer leaning against each candle (if they slide too much, use a blob of wax to affix them weakly to the candle). The dates on the wafers should be in chronological order.
3) Light the candles. Allow the tips to burn down so that the top of the candle is a relatively wide circle.
4) Turn of all other lights, and take photographs of the result.
Videography Steps:
1) Using the above setup, place additional candles behind and between the already lit ones, and light them.
2) Get the video camera set up for low light.
3) Opening: Explain that the wafers you received might be consecrated, and some might not, and either way, you don’t know, and neither does any one else. And there is absolutely no way to tell.
4) Describe the councils that lead to the doctrine of transubstantiation.
5) Start at the end with the wafers with the earliest dates. Describe the events surrounding the accusation, and the massacre or execution itself. If possible, name some of the dead. When you finish, take the wafer from where it leans, and use it to extinguish the candle. Leave the wafer flat on top of the candle.
6) Proceed down the row of candles, repeating step 5 as appropriate.
7) At the end of the row, there should now be a row of extinguished wafer-topped candles with lit candles behind them.
8) End with appropriate quotes. Suggestions:
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”
— Voltaire
and / or
“It was done by arrogance, it was done by dogma, it was done by ignorance. When people believe that they have absolute knowledge, with no test in reality, this is how they behave.”
— Bronowski
Possible variation: Use the opening (in step 3) as the closing, along with the quote(s).
Aside to Paul W., if you read this: If the Catholic Church brings a lawsuit against PZ for the above, I really think that even if they somehow win, they’ll lose. Yes?
Sorry Sven, but every so often I’d get one from my grandmother or a particularly peculiar aunt (the one who makes a habit of marrying rich Texans and giving all of their money to cults like JZ Knight’s Ramtha and the Brazilian con-man João de Deus), and every so often I get the urge to share the misery of my youth.
“No, my logic challenged friend. Her husband used her company email account, for which SHE is liable.”
Okei, then, glad she got fired. Don’t want vermin like that around.
GunOfSod:
Let me guess. You read about that in Schrodinger’s Catechism.
Not much is happening. Foley’s quest for added security at the GOP convention is being ignored, and he’s still (or was that someone else?)trying to claim that Myers career is finished because of this. Nonetheless, it’s kind of interesting, in how sadly they’re trying to still pretend it’s a big deal:’
They had better thank PZ when he does something with the cracker, because this story is just dying on the vine.
Gee, someone (or even everyone) might think “Polly wants a cracker” when PZ lectures? I’m sure that’s going to keep them from learning from someone who, as far as I can tell, is pretty good at getting science across (here, at least).
I’d actually have guessed that the GOP would pretend to listen to Foley. So much the better that they’re not even faking interest in the claim that Myers’s beard threatens the sanctity of Republican ceremony.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Brownian how can a dapper young smart fellow like you have a misery? Peculiar aunties are supposed to supply adventures.
Or..should we go there…?
Did everyone see this story, about a good guy running against a creationist for state legislature in Kansas?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/7/16/12325/4095
Andrew, #188
Neat stuff; I particularly like his webcomic-format plea for help.
Okei, then, glad she got fired. Don’t want vermin like that around.
Posted by: frodo
You are confused, my friend. Few, if anyone, expressed that they were glad she got fired. And no one referred to her as vermin. (Chuck, maybe…)
She shares her husbands culpability because he used HER business email account. ALL the blame is clearly on her husband Chuck; but she, by default, was let go for breaking company policy.
We have been made aware that Chuck is no stranger to making death threats. At least he didn’t hide behind his wife’s email account @1-800-FLOWERS for those threats.
I assume english isn’t your first language. Perhaps something has been lost in translation.
#186
Wait, what?
E.V.: You’re a smart person, and I usually agree with you. English is not my first (or second) language, congrats.
Please stop writing “my friend” in that shitty, condescending way.
“but she, by default, was let go for breaking company policy.”
Great. I’ve never broken company policy by forgetting to log out.
This did not have to happen.
On a lighter note:
I am aware of all Internet traditions.
And that’s why you’ve never been fired because somebody sent death threats from your company e-mail account. See?
(yes, I’m aware you were being sarcastic)
(and for the record, we, and that includes you, do not actually know what company policy she was fired for breaking)
So, Sven, if somebody sent death threats from my account, I should be fired? My English might be bad, but yours sounds… jenseits von gut und böse.
Not my call. However, according to knowledgable professionals in the corporate IT biz who have posted on this very issue in other threads ad nauseum, yeah: if you, through intention or negligence, permit somebody else to access your corporate e-mail account, and said hypothetical someone else uses it to send death threats, you should be fired. *shrug* Way of the world.
p.s. I never criticized your English, and Ich weiss nur ein bisschen Deutsch, but WTF was that comment supposed to mean?
#188 : Too bad I’m not an american citizen… =/
You guys better make him win! :P
“He also objected to Myers’ recent description of Catholic League President Bill Donohue as “braying,” which Foley, a self-described Irish Catholic, claimed was “a great insult for the Irish.”
Come on, have you ever actually heard Donohue speak? HAWWW HEE HAWWW bigotry HAAAAAWWWW…
“Great. I’ve never broken company policy by forgetting to log out.”
Then you are fortunate that no one issued a death threat from your computer.
(I apologize for the language misunderstanding. OK or Okay seemed to be spelled phonetically) As for the “my friend” as condescending, it was’nt intended as such. I was feeling gregarious today.
If one of my employees or their family members threatened anyone using company letterhead or a company e-mail address, I would be forced to fire them to restrict my liability.
Actually, I have fired an employee for her boyfriend’s actions toward a client. ( The employee allowed him to keep her company while she worked despite established policy. They had a public fight in a client’s home and the client asked him to leave. He didn’t until police were called.)
Children, significant others, and friends are not allowed to be on the job site without prior written permission. People abused that all the time and since most clients are away while the work is done (and they knew to keep out of sight when I showed up), they usually got away with it.
My employee would have been reprimanded anyway since the client came home unexpectedly to find a stranger who was not authorized to be in her house. The incident escalated to a crisis and it cost a very talented artist her job.
My company’s reputation was damaged. I lost a talented employee. I was able to keep the client, but no one won.
Yeah, sorry, Sven, got you mixed up with some other commenter who was proud to discover that English was not my language.
And I’m sure you’re right. To me, firing someone for forgetting to log out (unless they’re working for the CIA) just seems wildly harsh. And she never would’ve gotten fired were it not for the involvment of the Pharyngualites.
Foley isobviously deaf. Asses bray, the Irish go “bragh”.
I doubt that’s true. The company’s statement was that she was fired following an internal investigation. They said nothing about being dunned into it by a torrent of Pharyngulista e-mail.
Finally sent my letter to:
President Robert H. Bruininks
202 Morrill Hall
100 Church Street S.E.
University of Minnesota
Minneapolis, MN 55455
Re: The Myers Controversy
Dear Doctor Bruininks
I urge you to refrain from disciplining Professor Paul Z. Myers for his written statements regarding the UCF Eucharistic controversy.
A careful reading of Professor Myers’ original blog post will reveal the satirical intent- Dr Myers was condemning individuals who, in their zeal to protect a ritual wafer, threatened bodily harm to a human being. William Donohue, the individual who brought this case to national prominence, and urged disciplinary action against Professor Myers, is better known for his reactionary social and political views than for his actual defense of the Catholic faithful.
It would seem to me, as a former communicant in the Roman Catholic Church, that Donohue is attempting to stir up a culture war in an election year in which Catholics are trending Democratic. In former years, he has railed against “secular Jews” in Hollywood, and a “liberal media” which was reporting on numerous sexual abuse scandals in the church. In one of his press releases, he denigrated the Theory of Evolution (in opposition to church doctrine) as “The King Kong Theory of Creation”.
The ideological nature of the false outrage expressed by the individuals calling for Professor Myers termination is betrayed by the multiple exhortations for Dr. Myers to desecrate Islamic ritual objects, and the numerous threats of bodily harm conveyed to Dr. Myers. It is worth noting that many of the individuals calling for Dr. Myers resignation would, doubtlessly, defend a certain right-wing media figure who called for the forced conversion of muslims at gunpoint. At the very least, they would speak out against the dangers of “political correctness”.
The individuals calling for the termination, or worse, of Dr. Myers have acted in bad faith throughout this entire affair, and the loss of such an erudite, humane teacher as Dr Myers would be a blow to your institution.
Sincerely yours,
Name and Address
redacted due to excessive sexiness
“They said nothing about being dunned into it by a torrent of Pharyngulista e-mail.”
Oh, come on.
And it does to me as well.
But it also seems to me that 1-800-Flowers may have felt that her house was just insufficiently secure in general. Would she be able to guarantee that her husband would never, ever use her account again?
She also would never have gotten fired if her husband had not used her e-mail account to send a death threat.
Do you imagine bragging to Pres. Bruininks about your excessive sexiness will help or hurt PZ’s case?
;^)
Bill Dauphin (#40):
Prothero’s “Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why it Matters” is very accessible, and the illustrations are gorgeous.
Regarding the 1-800-FLOWERS situation, the punishment for Mrs Kroll is harsh, but if hubby’s dumb enough to send threatening e-mails using her work computer, he’s probably dumb enough to surf porn sites, and pick up viruses.
The Pharyngulites who e-mailed the company were, in many cases, acting under the assumption that Mrs Kroll had not sent the e-mail, and that some individual was exploiting a security breach in the company network.
Frodo? …more likely Tom, Bert, or William, ‘cos yer a TROLL.
Frodo:
For the record, I have the utmost respect for anyone who is proficient in two or more languages. I once argued with an Italian friend and was humiliated when I found I failed to interpret what was obvious to him. Nuances can be missed and completely undermine an argument.
This isn’t the case here.
Usually we assign blame when someone commits an illegal or non-policy act, guilt by commission . Are you aware of the concept of guilt by omission? If I leave my backyard gate open and a neighborhood child drowns in my pool, I can be legally charged and/or sued under American Law. Is it fair? Jeeeze, we’ll have tons of people debate that.
You want to blame those who complained to 1-800-FLOWERS, (I wasn’t one of them, I trusted that PZ had it handled, he’s a big boy.). Yes, perhaps her employers should have given her a warning instead, but that is up to their discretion.
Melanie Kroll isn’t out of the woods yet. She and her husband will be under scrutiny from authorities to see if one or both broke Federal laws.
Most every US Co. has specific policies on company property. I reitereate, if anyone or their spouse were to even download porn on a company computer and they were caught, then many American companies could and probably would fire them . It happens all the time. (I know of 3 specific cases) Any HR people out there to back that up?
“She also would never have gotten fired if her husband had not used her e-mail account to send a death threat.”
True. So what.
“Do you imagine bragging to Pres. Bruininks about your excessive sexiness will help or hurt PZ’s case?”
Bill, the Prez. won’t know about my excessive sexiness unless he reads these comments. I am a snarky person, for the most part, but when composing letters to save the bacon of someone I like and admire, I am in “deadly earnest”. In the past three months, I have had to generate two of these letters!
Patricia,
He didn’t say anything about going travelling with her – yet.
But to be fair I don’t know if Brownians ‘mother’ is dead yet. As long as no lovesick young men threaten him with folding knives, I’m sure he’ll be alright.
Peace. I knew what you were about; I was just teasing a bit. I suppose I should’ve bolded the smiley:
;^)
Okay (correct?), E.V.
I think we pretty much agree here. It was the overreaction from the mob that bothered me.
“I reitereate, if anyone or their spouse were to even download porn on a company computer and they were caught, then many American companies could and probably would fire them.”
Maybe this is where the European in me kicks in. No fucking way would anyone fire anyone over something so trivial.
Frodo, you’d have to take that up with your employer; I really doubt that anyone here makes company policy for her/him/it/them/fictitious person regarding use of company computers, time, or internet accounts. That even letting someone else use an employee’s access to the company account or site is a firing offense wouldn’t be unusual, quite aside from the public and nasty nature of the offense.
I’ll admit that I giggled like a grannie at the New Yorker cover. The reason it involved Michelle Obama is that she was half of the “terrorist fist-bump?” that the cartoon is making fun of, along with the middle-name nonsense et alii.
AND I’ll enthusiastically agree that Gun of Sod wins the thread. I’d buy him or her a beer anytime.
But hey, since this is a dumptruck or something: Here’s a photo set of wonderments that are in PZ’s backyard. Metaphorically speaking, I hasten to point out to the Republicans crouching at the keyhole.
I won’t disagree with you on how fucked up it seems. The U.S. is the most litigious society in the world. Evidently, our motto should be “don’t say we didn’t warn you”; and consequently most Corps. operate from a C.Y.A point of view. Their problem with death threats? obvious. Their problem with porn? Possible sexual harassment suit from a coworker. And on and on…
BTW. I apologized. Was the “Okay” dig necessary? Want to call it even, now?
I got nothin’ but love for ya, Bill… but nothing excessively sexy.
“Maybe this is where the European in me kicks in. No fucking way would anyone fire anyone over something so trivial.”
Frodo, that’s because Europe has a strong labor movement, you know, like unions and stuff. Gleaning a bit of Mr Kroll’s personality and political convictions from his postings, he would probably criticize unions as being “socialistic” and “un-American”. At any rate, his wife was hoist on the petard he set up to take down PZ.
She should divorce his Paleolithic ass.
No, E.V., it was not necessary. I apologize.
Danke
I am the poster formerly know as Kenny P. Since I am coming clean on this, I am not a sockpuppet or whatever that internet term is. I am told my name gives shivers as it is errily similar to some previous troll-poster.
The name Kenny P comes from my name which is Kenneth Paul Sholes. I am replacing it with Qwerty in that the inventor of the first practical typewriter was Christopher L. Sholes, a Milwaukee printer. (Don’t know if I am related.)
Christopher Sholes invented the QWERTY layout for an early typewriter which has become a worldwide standard for all keyboards. It has been assailed by many but still remains the standard.
So, now those of you who may feel queasy can calm down as I will now post as Qwerty. Hopefully, there isn’t any troll with that name.
“Frodo? …more likely Tom, Bert, or William, ‘cos yer a TROLL.”
Hmmm…
I’m feeling pretty exasperated today.
I’ve been having an ongoing discussion with a fellow non-theist who nevertheless insists on embracing “mysticism.” I’m not sure what to make of it. On one hand, I’m glad that he at least agrees with me that the various holy texts are human productions. On the other hand, I find this “magical soul” business uncomfortably close to religious faith.
I’d like to hear what others think. Is this is a fight worth waging, or should we just accept mysticism as a less threatening type of, as Randi might say, “woo woo?”
Should the Discovery Institute have the sub-title ‘Village Idiot Repository’, or is that just an impression?
As to the cat’lickers and world’s deluded youth day in Sydney thingie, this is still the best, in my view: http://www.writeone.com.au/WYD2008.htm which was found in another competition for best t-shirts to show opinion of that event and the Chief Pedophile.
@ 126 :
I knew that silly.
QWERTY aka Kenny P: you know, the QWERTY keyboard was invented for the mechanical typewriter as a means to regulate the typing speed so as to prevent jamming the levers.
Later, when linotype machines were invented, they used a completely different keyboard, with all the most frequently used letters on one side and the less frequently used letters on the other. Eventually, the QWERTY keyboard became outdated, but it hasn’t been replaced yet because too many people have learned touch typing on them.
@ Neg and 176:
We had great fun on a night shift recently playing with the Birthday paradox,asked every ambulance officer and ward nurse their birthday,and took us 36 or so to find a match !
On that note,Bill Dauphin if youre still around, Mlodinov’s “The Drunkards Walk” is a beautiful book about probabilities and chance,and contains all these little tricks,if you havent read it yet.
And another one thats on the pile waiting to receive some love : “Deep Simplicity” by John Gribbin,on complexity theory and chaos mainly,sounds promising.
Hmm. Where did I put that fedora?
Kidding. I’m more of a Tilley man myself.
Given that atheists/secular humanists typically favor rationality over irrationality and the ability to question authority over unquestioning submission to authority, how do most of you godless folk here view military membership? Generally, joining a military branch entails performing a lot of seemingly irrational tasks/rituals (including group prayer), not being able to question orders (especially, in a war zone, when it concerns who or whom you are to kill), etc. I am a 22 year old atheist, and I have been considering joining the US Air Force when I finish college a year from now. Any ideas? If any of you are atheistic and have served in either of the branches, advice would be much appreciated. Danke.
I was slumming at the Answers in Genesis website, and read that they’re planning to advertise their creation museum on Fox News. This is bizarre, so I blogged about it.
Kubenzi’s bad joke of the day:
Q:What compact and somewhat dangerous vehicle does PZ Myers sometimes drive?
A: http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee223/amishewe/PZ.jpg
Keith B, I think there are more than a few here who have served (I’m not one of them, though I was an air cadet when I was a wee lad), but brokenSoldier is the first that I can think of. If no one responds on this thread, ask him next time you see him.
@ #40: David Quammen: Natural Acts, The Reluctant Mr. Darwin, lots of articles for National Geographic, and a ton of other essays and articles and a few more books.
You might find this article interesting. Tasmanian researchers have discovered that Tasmanian Devils are breeding earlier and younger in response to the fatal facial cancer that is devastating the Tassie Devil population. Supposed to be the first time a mammal has changed its reproductive behaviour in response to an infectious disease.
Clearly the only way for CrackerGate to be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction is for PZ to collect all of the supposedly consecrated ones sent to him (some of which in theory could have been poisoned may malicious senders), buy a bag of non-consecrated crackers and mix them in. He should then take them all to a local Catholic Church for proper disposal (and remind them that some might be potentially dangerous to consume).
The Church have their Jesus back and PZ has proved his point (they will have to treat all of them as consecrated as tehy are just damn crackers)
Geoff #109:
I had exactly the same thought before my wedding. My wife insisted on a catholic ceremony (she’s Polish, so it’s expected), and I wanted to inject something non-theistic as my reading, as a bit of rebellion. Question is, do you really want to have something sciency or overtly anti-religious in a church ceremony? I had no luck with Sagan but found something incredibly romantic (and non-religious) instead: a passage from Maud by Lord Alfred Tennyson. You’ll find the passage quickly if you google for it; it worked on many levels for my bride, but may not work for yours.
Cheers
Keith B,
Actually, the military is not necessarily as bad as you may think. There are an awful lot of very worldly, practical people serving, and that holds all the way through to the highest ranks. Most are very much into live and let live (or, rather, live and kill the other bastard… hey, it’s the military!), rather than poking their nose into your personal life.
I served in The Royal Australian Air Force for 9 years as an officer, including my time at Officer school… Admittedly the Australian military has much more of a tradition of troops answering back to superior officers than does the US, but I have worked with plenty of US military personnel, and the difference wasn’t huge. Generally speaking, superiors prefer that you stop them from making an ass of themself, even if that means that you have to disagree with them. Certainly in my experience, agreeing with a superior when I should have been advising a contrary policy landed me in trouble more often than disagreeing (respectfully!) ever did.
As for following orders in a warzone – well, if you’re joining the Air Force, there is only a very limited likelihood that you would ever have to take moral decisions in that respect. Pilots and their kit are too expensive to use for anything other than missions that have been approved from way up, where the Fog of War is dissipated to some extent, and ground staff are generally on protected bases, not under fire from supposed friendlies…
Probably the biggest question you’ll have to answer is whether or not you can trust the politicians to not put you in a morally difficult situation. I left the Australian Defence Force when the Prime Minister started using us for morally dubious missions, such as harassing refugée seekers, or invading a non-threatening country, rather than for peace-keeping or defence.
But, honestly, if you have any doubts on this score, don’t join up. And never forget (in the words of one of my commanders) “Our job in the military is to inflict controlled violence to achieve a political goal. If you have a problem with that, you’re in the wrong job”.
PZ:
When you compile all of this cracker craziness for your memoirs, I have an idea for the title. I suggest “WAFER MADNESS” done in a wavy typeface like you’d use for REEFER MADNESS.
Keith B: Before you do anything irrevocable, you should ask yourself seriously if you are prepared for what you are getting into. You may have a long and fulfilling career in the Air Force and never be asked to do anything more disgusting than clean the toilets if you get unlucky on the duty roster. However, you may be ordered to bomb civilians, torture prisoners (including those you know are innocent civilians who were at the wrong place at the wrong time) and commit other war crimes. If placed in that situation what would you do? Do you have a way to keep your mind clear and resist criminal orders?
I’m not saying this to discourage you and I certainly don’t believe that all military personnel are criminals. But criminals do exist in the military, some of them high up and you should be prepared to meet them and, if possible, stop them from committing crimes. Or, if that is not possible, at least to refuse to be part of the crime.
Personally, I can’t see how any self-respecting person can put so much of their life under the control of others. Military service is fundamentally about dehumanization, regardless of whether you are required to commit crimes against humanity.
Keith B: My problem with Atheists serving in the U.S. military since 2001-09-11 has been that the conflicts are all about religious terrorism, or playing peace keeper between warring religious factions in Iraq. I would think that an Atheist would rather not even get involved in that, especially after already having graduated from college (making it more difficult to reap benefits from the GI Bill). An Atheist dying as a combatant in a religious war just seems wrong to me, unless the war is to defend freedom of/from religion, which doesn’t seem to be any one of the goals of the U.S. military. Also, even with the possibility of a regime change here at home, I’m not sure that would reduce our involvement in the Middle East, where religious wars often have to wait for the field of combat to be cleared before conducting a fresh engagement.
Bill, I really enjoyed the 3 collaborative works of Ian Stewart (Mathmatician), Jack Cohen (biologist of some sort) and Terry Pratchet (author). “The Science of the Diskworld” volumes 1-3. They are very good. The first vol. covers the history of the universe from the big bang to a speculative future, not too far away. The second, “evolution and development of the human mind, culture, language, art and science”. And the third focuses more on the development of the theory of evolution through natural selection.
The clever part of it all is that all 3 volumes alternate chapters between a fictional story and a factual explanation of the science behind it. Of course, the fiction is written by Pratchett.
“….and that the procedure for making such hosts is not such as to alter the nature of the substance of the bread.”
Do they mean ‘substance’ as in the wheat flour and water or the their other special meaning of “substance” as in it actually being Christ’s body (despite all evidence to the contrary)?
Thanks for the replies, guys. I wasn’t sure whether or not I was going to receive any. As for why I’m considering joining, it’s really because I need a way to simultaneously pay off the student loan debt I’ve accrued (a little under $90,000), receive more money to pay for the masters degree I want, get free housing and get intelligence analysis training so I can put my foot in the door of a civilian federal intelligence outfit (CIA, NSA, etc). There seems to be job security in the military because they’re so desperate for people, especially officers. Trust me, I’m not eager to sign my life way. I just can’t think of a better way right now. How does someone with an International Security Studies BA, and no real related job experience, make civilian money while staying in that same field? :P
“Given that atheists/secular humanists typically favor rationality over irrationality and the ability to question authority over unquestioning submission to authority, how do most of you godless folk here view military membership?” – Keith B.
I’ve never been in the military. My views are as an outsider.
There’s something special about being able to say to yourself: “well hey, I’ve never murdered anyone.” When people talk about the sacrifice soldiers make for their country, they’re partially talking about the bad food, the terror, the limbs and lives lost, but more universally they’re talking about that special little thing in each of us that assures us we aren’t murderers. You can learn to live as a killer (many do), but that sense of corruption will never go away. I’ve known a lot of vets, and not one will tell you different.
Not that I’m urging you not to join. I just think you should know what you’re sacrificing.
I don’t think godlessness informs this at all. It seems to be the reality no matter what one believes.
Ah, the draft on the poor. <facepalm>
What you need to do is go into politics, not the military, and campaign for making university education free or almost free the way it is over here. People with a completed university education usually go on to have jobs with such high incomes that they pay more back in income tax than their education ever cost — and for that they’re being punished by having to enter adult life with a huge pile of debts?!?
Something is rotten in the States of America.
(Yeah, and Australia, too.)
Over here you can buy T-shirts saying
“I AM NOTHING
I CAN’T DO ANYTHING
GIVE ME A UNIFORM”
The bachelor was a stupid invention. Go on and make an MA. If you find the money anywhere, that is <headdesk>
damned intertoobz ate my post.
Keith, there are plenty of other gummint jobs. State Dept, Dept of Your Papers Please, NSA/NRO*, FBI come to mind.
The military branches all have large civilian workforces, so don’t sign up to be IN the military – then they have you 24/7 for X years.
*Of course, if you ask, then you’re probably a spy…
In German, languages are abilities, so they’re treated like verbs. You don’t know German, you can German — ich kann nur ein bisschen deutsch.
Sili & Brownian – Sorry, I was teasing. Peculiar aunties used to be popular in kids books. They furnised unlimited amounts of money for travel, gifts that arrived just in time & other such fun nonsense. :)
Robert Baer went to the CIA, asked if they had a job for him, and got one.
Vladimir Putin went to the KGB (when he was just 16 years old), asked if they had a job for him, and was told “not you look for us, but we look for you”. Insert “In Soviet Russia, X Ys you!” joke here. Anyway, a few years later, they suddenly offered him a job. The rest is history.
Thanks, David (#246). Goes to show just how kleine my bisschen is!
My cyberpistol, on the other hand? Huge.
Thanks, David M. That kind of thing is why I left CIA out of my list. CIA conducted job interviews on my campus, and that was in mid-80s.
I submit that as it’s just a cracker, we can’t really “desecrate” it in a theatrical or overly symbol-laden way without appearing credulous of the cracker’s “special status.”
Instead, we should do something one does with other “crackers” – like heading to the park and feeding the birds with them.
I think the frackers should be thrown, a la a playing card, and see if they can cleave a koran, or maybe a piece of the True Cross.
Ah! Sorry, Patricia and Brownian. I thought we were talking Graham Greene.
Dame Maggie is the sexiest woman alive.Hi PZ (or JJ) and everyone! I’m sorry it took me so long to write about the recent “cracker controversy”. I’ve done so now at http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com/2008/07/let-jesus-contend-with-p-z-myers.html
Let me know what you think!
“The bachelor was a stupid invention. Go on and make an MA. If you find the money anywhere, that is” – David Marjanović
Yeah, that’s the whole thing. I’m really out of options as far as money via student loans goes. A masters degree is either going to be straight out of my pocketbook or the government’s.
“Keith, there are plenty of other gummint jobs. State Dept, Dept of Your Papers Please, NSA/NRO*, FBI come to mind.” – True Bob
I just looked into the Department of State’s FSO program, and that actually looks pretty sexy. I might give that a shot before settling for the USAF.
Today I had to replace the staples in my stapler. I was looking at the box which promised me “5000 quality staples.” It also said there were 210 staples per strip and 24 strips per box. 210 × 24 = 5040. So it appears there are 5000 quality staples and 40 non-quality staples.
My question is, why can’t Bostitch remove the 40 non-quality staples? Or at least color code them so the user can easily identify them to throw them away?
It’s my birthday – can I get some love?
It’s my birthday – can I get some love?
Yes, but only if you admit to how old you are. And it’ll still only be cyber love. Happy birthday!
Okay, I’m 35. Let the love begin!
Oops – rather late to spot that addition but here you are anyway: ♥
Happy B-Day, Wowbagger. Or Happy Bidet, whichever you prefer.
Good luck, Keith B. And seriously, stay away from enlistment or officerdom. With a civilian job, you can up and leave if you want.
srilanka
The arriving in Atlanta seems to be very interesting. The content shows some important things that we realize about your work and it shows how you are busy.
………….
GAYATHRI
Wide Circles