Some local godless heathens got mentioned in the Mankato Free Press, in an article titled “Becoming atheist akin to finding religion”. It highlights August Berkshire of Minnesota Atheists and an attorney, Jim Manahan, who say pretty much the exact opposite of what the title suggests. The article itself is good and explains a little bit about how one comes to abandon religion, but I suspect the title is an example of an editor doing some editorializing.
Here’s some useful local information from the Minnesota Atheists, too: A brief history of disbelief is being broadcast next week in the Twin Cities. Check the website for specific times.
We also have a couple of distinguished speakers coming to the big city: Steve Pinker on the 20th of September (Skatje will probably go “oooh” and tell me I have to take her), and Ian McKellen will be speaking in October (Skatje might just go “squeee!” and tell me to take her to that one, too.)
Oh, and big news: the Twin Cities will be hosting the American Atheists National Convention on March 21-23, 2008. I shall have to be there.
The article got it wrong, but Julia Sweeney got it right. It’s not about “Becoming Atheist”. It’s about “Letting go of God”. We are born atheists. Leaving religion and returning to atheism is simply a journey back to our natural state.
OEJ
I had a friend who was interviewed to a major Danish newspaper about her blog.
Her blog is very Sex & the City like, and she tells funny versions of stuff that happened to her.
One sunday morning when she was going to the baker, she saw the front page of said paper proclaiming “I fuck with everyone and everything!”
The editor had decided to spice it up a little!
Never trust newspapers to not go the low way!
(some time later she was offered a very good job on the basis of her blog, but when they discovered “her” headline they withdrew the offer based on political considerations)
Soren, thats disgraceful. The poor girl.
Do you still have her telephone number?
The clothing marketers seem to think it doesn’t take some people very long to become “born-again” atheists. About all any wearers of that particular outfit have time to have achieved is a token Christening and perhaps a ritual mutilation – all done to them involuntarily.
Knowing some people in the newspaper business, and seeing what headlines do to arts reviews (I’m active in the local performing arts scene), editors don’t write the headlines. A designated headline writer appears to read the first paragraph, two if you’re lucky, and writes the headline based on that and space available. If the focus and slant of the article changes in that little bit of copy, the headline won’t pick it up.
(going back to lurking now…….)
What a silly design. It would be much better with the word “again” scored out instead of the silly crossed-out jesus-cross.
The three “A Brief History of Unbelief” shows are on Veoh, together with three one hour shows of extended interviews with people such as Arthur Miller, Dawkins, etc. This is material that was not used in the shows. Veoh’s search engine is a bit idiosyncratic, but try feeding in “Jonathon Miller” and/or “Atheism”.
WWTGDD? (What Would The Great Dawkins Do?)
One-Eyed Jack (#1):
We may be born atheist, but doubt is a skill that takes a long time to develop. It means learning how to discern and how to question authority. Doubt in many people is quashed by their social network long before they have the chance to develop it. Then you find the absurd accusation that doubters, freethinkers, atheists, agnostics and all who approach skeptically the religion they were born into (or the one that surrounds them in their society) as being trapped by a “presupposition of materialism” into believing in evolution.
The Pinker event conflicts with my schedule. Dang.
Doesn’t the writer of the piece even get to suggest a headline? Multiple headlines of different lengths?
What!?! Allow interference from somebody who might have read the article? How could you suggest such a thing!
Interesting, 3 to 5 years indeed. It took me around 4 years to see the light. When I told my wife ( now ex-wife ) about it she went nuts! “How could you possible say you don’t believe in God, all of a sudden?, just like that? Don’t be an idiot!, You can’t be that ignorant!” and a lot other comments like that.
All members of my family are christians, pastors, church singers, involved in youth groups,etc and this is so true: “Berkshire compares his revelation to friends and family to a gay person coming out of the closet”.
One big problem for others in a similar situation is: children. My daughter is being taught about god and all the non sense but I just can’t go and tell her that’s BS ( she’s 5 ), my strategy so far is sharing with her a passion for understanding nature and hoping that in a few years she will have the necessary curiosity to make the right questions and see the truth.
It really hurts listening my daughter playing back the stupidity. Maybe little things will count, this was a conversation with her a few days ago: “Daddy you know what makes the rain fall? God, God does it”, Me: “Really?, well in fact the reason this little drops are falling is because…” and another one that I am enjoying, her mother and the rest of the family has all this expressions like “God!”, “Oh my God!” “Maria!”, so now I say something like “Zeus!”, soon she will ask who is Zeus :)
Any tips to plant the seed for young kids?
Sorry for the long comment, Pharyngula is now part of my morning meditation :)
Interesting, 3 to 5 years indeed. It took me around 4 years to see the light. When I told my wife ( now ex-wife ) about it she went nuts! “How could you possible say you don’t believe in God, all of a sudden?, just like that? Don’t be an idiot!, You can’t be that ignorant!” and a lot other comments like that.
All members of my family are christians, pastors, church singers, involved in youth groups,etc and this is so true: “Berkshire compares his revelation to friends and family to a gay person coming out of the closet”.
One big problem for others in a similar situation is: children. My daughter is being taught about god and all the non sense but I just can’t go and tell her that’s BS ( she’s 5 ), my strategy so far is sharing with her a passion for understanding nature and hoping that in a few years she will have the necessary curiosity to make the right questions and see the truth.
It really hurts listening my daughter playing back the stupidity. Maybe little things will count, this was a conversation with her a few days ago: “Daddy you know what makes the rain fall? God, God does it”, Me: “Really?, well in fact the reason this little drops are falling is because…” and another one that I am enjoying, her mother and the rest of the family has all this expressions like “God!”, “Oh my God!” “Maria!”, so now I say something like “Zeus!”, soon she will ask who is Zeus :)
Any tips to plant the seed for young kids?
Sorry for the long comment, Pharyngula is now part of my morning meditation :)
I think the title is kind of clever, actually. The way the headline is, on the face of it, an obvious contradiction makes one look at it a second time. “Finding religion” in this context refers to having a revelatory experience, or otherwise experiencing a sea change in one’s way of seeing the world. Having the scales fall from one’s eyes. It reminds me of how Douglas Adams described reading The Blind Watchmaker. If an actual atheist were to say that the experience was like “finding religion”, we’d probably see it as a little joke. I think that’s the way it’s intended here. At any rate, it’s a fair shake better than “Becoming atheist akin to losing all hope and joy in the world”, isn’t it?
Andres, teach her more about other religions, what people believe in different parts of the world. And teach her the basics for the scientific method (- it boils down to asking one question – “what is the evidence for that?”).
After that she will find her own way.
That’s awesome about the convention. I’ll be there.
Andres,
I decided to actively become an atheist when I was 14 because of a world history class. It was easy for me to put into context the necessity of gods to, say, pull the sun across the sky, and how that changed up to the enlightenment and the rising popularity of deism (god created everything and then walked away). Science and evolution give a foundation of evidence to improve the atheist stance. You may find the world history/comparative religion tack to be all you need to plant the seeds. Check this article out: http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm
Knowing, for example, that “Elohim” is an ancient word describing a pantheon of pagan gods, is quite interesting. Of course, your daughter is taught that “God” is the one true god, but asking the doubter’s questions like, “how do you prove that?” and “how do you disprove other religions?” is a very leading way to plant the seed.
I agree that it’s important that doubt be nurtured with doubt, and not just asserted as the One True Way. It’s what distinguishes us from the beliefs that require indoctrination.
Good luck.
Andrés,
I recommend a library rich in hard science fiction, for a few years down the road. The Heinlein juveniles would be a good start around age 9, with some Niven thrown in few years later. Good hard SF authors force their protagonists to deal with the universe as it is, rather than as they would wish it. Pratchett and Douglas Adams (admittedly not SF) are good at poking fun at religion in general, thus leading to questions about one’s own specific brand.
Andres, this may sound cruel, but: when you can push alll the childhood fairies hard. The tooth fairy, the birthday goblin (at least one present from each year) and the big one: Santa Claus. At the same time insiduously give her critical thinking skills. It worked with our two, both champion school debaters and ardent disbelievers who eat JWs for breakfast.
What happens is the usual, the kid, usually with peer pressure as well, comes to disbelieve in the little lies. This teaches a valuable lesson: be skeptical when adults tell you to believe something without evidence. This can be helped by a suitably Machiavellian parent…
Andres,
I’m in a similar situation. My stepdaughter is five, and my soon-to-be-wife has an agreement with her (fundie nutjob) ex that he gets the kids for all the religious holidays. E often comes back crying that “Daddy {me} is going to hell because he doesn’t believe in God!” We manage to get her over that fairly quickly, and my ex has become extremely vicious about the evil ex and various other ‘friends’ planting those things in E’s head.
Last Easter, E spent the weekend with him, and came back talking about how Easter was about Jesus coming back from the dead. It took literally ten minutes from the time she got into the car with us for her to go from “Jesus rose from the dead” to “Zombie Jesus rose from the dead and is going to eat our brains! RAAARR!!”
That’s my girl. :-) And no, I didn’t prompt her on it.
We don’t hide xtian thought from her, though we don’t promote it. We take her to various churches, neopagan events, and lots of different things, with no judgments as to what’s ‘right’ and what isn’t. We expose her to lots of different experiences, and make it clear that she is to make up her own mind. So far, she likes the UU’s and the neopagans the best.
aestheticpisces
Whoops; “my SO has become extremely vicious…”, not “my ex”.
And E is also known to very loudly proclaim, “I TOLD you, I don’t believe in Santa Claus!!”
aestheticpisces
Damn, I felt like the only atheist in town when I was living in Mankato. Glad to know there are some others (but I’m sure as hell not moving back)
Greg,
“Of course, your daughter is taught that “God” is the one true god, but asking the doubter’s questions like, “how do you prove that?” and “how do you disprove other religions?” is a very leading way to plant the seed.”
My question always is “How do you know?” Even a pre-schooler can assimilate that, and they soon realize on their own that “Mommy said so” doesn’t quite answer the question; after all, Mommy said Santa Claus was coming last year and it was just Daddy.
And “Daddy said so because his pastor said so because his teacher said so because his mommy said so because …” (which corresponds to the typical progression of 4-year-old “Why?” questions) is a dead give-away. As Christian fundamentalists, we were trained to stop that line at the first authority figure, because otherwise it is fatal to gullibility.
FWIW, I heard Pinker at UT-Austin about a decade ago, and his glib responses during the Q&A session really turned me off. I wouldn’t walk across the street to hear him again.
Raising one of those asantists, eh?
What, PZ, no details?! I need to know where (and, more importantly, how much), dang it! What better place to be on my birthday? Their website wasn’t much help, as that’s all info for 2007. The only relevant result for “American Atheists National Convention” 2008 on google is your post. There’s nothing on the No God Blog. Give us the details!
I don’t have the details — just the announcement on the Mn Atheists site. They haven’t even picked a hotel yet.
There are a lot of us in that situation. I’m doing the same, trying to instill skeptical thinking on everything and hoping it gets applied to God too. I have been a bit more direct at times. The other day my 7 year old said that he didn’t believe in God, and I said that was ok, a lot of people don’t, and there’s nothing wrong with that – that’s a message that I NEVER got growing up, that it was ok to doubt. I also gave both kids a talking-to after church last week when a similar subject came up, and gave them the spiel about not believing anyone just because they’re an adult, or a teacher, or even me, but if it sounds strange to always ask why? or how do you know? and then decide for themselves if they think there’s enough support to believe it.
Funny anecdote: Last week the 7 year old was having a bad day at church, and I heard him yell “I hate church!” from across the room. His teacher said “Oh, no, of course you don’t” in a patronizing voice, and he yelled back “What – do you think I’m lying? I’m not a liar!!!!” I was so proud. :)
Andres,
My parents were Southern Baptists and I was brought up in a rather devout household. To paraphrase George Carlin, I was a fervent believer up until I reached the age of . . . reason (which translates to about 12).
The only thing my parents ever did to get me going in that direction was to encourage me to seek answers to questions on my own. I don’t think they realized they were undermining my faith at the time. Simple logic puzzles provided the foundation for my critical thinking skills and religion pretty much became a nonstarter for me in the 7th grade. That was when my own interest in science introduced me to genetics and when my school work started to include more classical mythology and comparative religion.
BobApril recommended a lot of hard science fiction and I did read quite a bit of that, however, it seems the nonfiction was more influential for me.
Hope that helps in some way.
SDEJ
Andres when your daughter is older I strongly reccomend you introduce her to Terry Pratchett’s Discworld books though you can start her off on his kids stuff, the the Gnomes trilogy, Truckers, Diggers and Wings. In the Discworld books I particularly reccomend The Hogfather, a very wise book on how we humans create things with our beliefs. Sky TV on this side of the pond did a tv series of it last xmas. Despite my fears I thought it was very good.
Then when she is a bit older still Douglas Adams, the whole shebang. Also have a copy of Dawkins’ Unweaving the Rainbow to hand for the inevitable angst when she hits science at school.
DVR alert for the Chicago area. When I contacted WTTW about showing this program, they blew me off. I happened to notice in today’s listings that WYCC is showing ABHOD on Thursdays at 9:00pm CDT starting today. I’ve never been inclined to contribute to WYCC, but as Atrios says, “Reward good behavior”.