Sam Harris criticized Israel and Judaism in the beginning of his article. He sounds neutral. But he is not. He is as Muslim hater as before.
The question I’ve now received in many forms goes something like this: Why is it that you never criticize Israel? Why is it that you never criticize Judaism? Why is it that you always take the side of the Israelis over that of the Palestinians?
Now, this is an incredibly boring and depressing question for a variety of reasons. The first, is that I have criticized both Israel and Judaism. What seems to have upset many people is that I’ve kept some sense of proportion. There are something like 15 million Jews on earth at this moment; there are a hundred times as many Muslims. I’ve debated rabbis who, when I have assumed that they believe in a God that can hear our prayers, they stop me mid-sentence and say, “Why would you think that I believe in a God who can hear prayers?” So there are rabbis—conservative rabbis—who believe in a God so elastic as to exclude every concrete claim about Him—and therefore, nearly every concrete demand upon human behavior. And there are millions of Jews, literally millions among the few million who exist, for whom Judaism is very important, and yet they are atheists. They don’t believe in God at all. This is actually a position you can hold in Judaism, but it’s a total non sequitur in Islam or Christianity.
Is Sam Harris sad because Jews population is much less than Muslim population? I am sure he knows the reasons why Muslims are more in number than Jews. If they are more, does not mean they are powerful. You have money and weapons, you are much more powerful than them.
Sam says, Judaism is very important for millions of Jews, even though they are atheists. Why should atheists care for any particular religion? If any religion is very important to X, X is not a true atheist. When a person becomes an atheist, he /she denounces his /her religion first, then start denouncing other religions. If your religion is very important to you and you are an atheist, then something is wrong with you.
There are millions of Muslims who are also agnostics or atheists, who do not believe in gods. But most of them say that they are Muslims, because it is safer to say it in Muslim countries and also that they believe though they are atheists, they live in Muslim culture, so they should be called Muslims. They are cultural Muslims.
You must not think all Muslims believe in the Koran or Hadith or they pray regularly. To my surprise I have noticed that it is Muslims, specially non Arabic Muslims, who know almost nothing about Islam or the Koran and the Hadith. If they knew, they could have easily become atheists.
If ordinary Muslims could get proper education, they would have believed in democracy, human rights, equality, freedom of expression the way enlightened people believe in. Muslims are deprived of their rights to become enlightened by corrupt Muslim authorities and oppressive religious systems they impose.
So, when we’re talking about the consequences of irrational beliefs based on scripture, the Jews are the least of the least offenders. But I have said many critical things about Judaism. Let me remind you that parts of Hebrew Bible—books like Leviticus and Exodus and Deuteronomy—are the most repellent, the most sickeningly unethical documents to be found in any religion. They’re worse than the Koran. They’re worse than any part of the New Testament. But the truth is, most Jews recognize this and don’t take these texts seriously. It’s simply a fact that most Jews and most Israelis are not guided by scripture—and that’s a very good thing.
Of course, there are some who are. There are religious extremists among Jews. Now, I consider these people to be truly dangerous, and their religious beliefs are as divisive and as unwarranted as the beliefs of devout Muslims. But there are far fewer such people.
There are two billion Muslims living in the world. The percentage of ‘dangerous Muslim religious extremists’ is not really much. If the percentage was high, we all atheists would have been killed a long time ago.
For those of you who worry that I never say anything critical about Israel: My position on Israel is somewhat paradoxical. There are questions about which I’m genuinely undecided. And there’s something in my position, I think, to offend everyone. So, acknowledging how reckless it is to say anything on this topic, I’m nevertheless going to think out loud about it for a few minutes.
I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. I think it is obscene, irrational and unjustifiable to have a state organized around a religion. So I don’t celebrate the idea that there’s a Jewish homeland in the Middle East. I certainly don’t support any Jewish claims to real estate based on the Bible. [Note: Read this paragraph again.]
Fine. I think it is impossible for a true atheist to accept any state which has been created based on religion. Mr. Sam, have you ever protested against the birth of Israel before? You say that you are against the creation of a religion-based state. Did you ever ask Israelis to come back to Europe and America leaving their stolen land to Palestinians?
Though I just said that I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state, the justification for such a state is rather easy to find. We need look no further than the fact that the rest of the world has shown itself eager to murder the Jews at almost every opportunity. So, if there were going to be a state organized around protecting members of a single religion, it certainly should be a Jewish state. Now, friends of Israel might consider this a rather tepid defense, but it’s the strongest one I’ve got. I think the idea of a religious state is ultimately untenable.
Needless to say, in defending its territory as a Jewish state, the Israeli government and Israelis themselves have had to do terrible things. They have, as they are now, fought wars against the Palestinians that have caused massive losses of innocent life. More civilians have been killed in Gaza in the last few weeks than militants. That’s not a surprise because Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on Earth. Occupying it, fighting wars in it, is guaranteed to get woman and children and other noncombatants killed. And there’s probably little question over the course of fighting multiple wars that the Israelis have done things that amount to war crimes. They have been brutalized by this process—that is, made brutal by it. But that is largely the due to the character of their enemies. [Note: I was not giving Israel a pass to commit war crimes. I was making a point about the realities of living under the continuous threat of terrorism and of fighting multiple wars in a confined space.]
Is Israel brutal because of the character of her enemies? Wow, this is so funny. Palestinians have no air force, no navy, no army, no cannons, no nukes that Israel have. Israel is the 4th largest military power in the world. Gaza is one of the poor places of earth. Gaza is also called an open air prison. We saw that the brutality of Israel by its air strikes and ground offensives already killed more than a thousand Gazans in the last few days, most of them were civilians. Gazans have home made rockets, bricks, bottles which they use against their enemies. There is no comparison between Hamas and Israel. When Israel kills 1000, Hamas only can manage to kill 20 or so.
Whatever terrible things the Israelis have done, it is also true to say that they have used more restraint in their fighting against the Palestinians than we—the Americans, or Western Europeans—have used in any of our wars. They have endured more worldwide public scrutiny than any other society has ever had to while defending itself against aggressors. The Israelis simply are held to a different standard. And the condemnation leveled at them by the rest of the world is completely out of proportion to what they have actually done. [Note: I was not saying that because they are more careful than we have been at our most careless, the Israelis are above criticism. War crimes are war crimes.]
It is clear that Israel is losing the PR war and has been for years now. One of the most galling things for outside observers about the current war in Gaza is the disproportionate loss of life on the Palestinian side. This doesn’t make a lot of moral sense. Israel built bomb shelters to protect its citizens. The Palestinians built tunnels through which they could carry out terror attacks and kidnap Israelis. Should Israel be blamed for successfully protecting its population in a defensive war? I don’t think so. [Note: I was not suggesting that the deaths of Palestinian noncombatants are anything less than tragic. But if retaliating against Hamas is bound to get innocents killed, and the Israelis manage to protect their own civilians in the meantime, the loss of innocent life on the Palestinian side is guaranteed to be disproportionate.]
But there is no way to look at the images coming out Gaza—especially of infants and toddlers riddled by shrapnel—and think that this is anything other than a monstrous evil. Insofar as Israel is the agent of this evil, it seems impossible to support its behavior. And there is no question that the Palestinians have suffered terribly for decades under the occupation. This is where most critics of Israel appear to be stuck. They see these images, and they blame Israel for killing and maiming babies. They see the occupation, and they blame Israel for making Gaza a prison camp. I would argue is a kind of moral illusion, borne of a failure to look at the actual causes of this conflict, as well as of a failure to understand the intentions of the people on either side of it. [Note: I was not saying that the horror of slain children is a moral illusion; nor was I minimizing the suffering of the Palestinians under the occupation. I was claiming that Israel is not primarily to blame for all this suffering.]
The truth is that there is an obvious, undeniable, and hugely consequential moral difference between Israel and her enemies. The Israelis are surrounded by people who have explicitly genocidal intentions towards them. The charter of Hamas is explicitly genocidal. It looks forward to a time, based on Koranic prophesy, when the earth itself will cry out for Jewish blood, where the trees and the stones will say “O Muslim, there’s a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him.” This is a political document. We are talking about a government that was voted into power by a majority of the Palestinians. [Note: Yes, I know that not every Palestinian supports Hamas, but enough do to have brought them to power. Hamas is not a fringe group.]
If Muslims followed Koranic advice to kill Jews, they would have killed Jews everywhere, in America, in Europe, in Asia, in Africa. But Muslims and Jews have been living together without any conflict in the other parts of the world but Israel and Palestine. Jews are living in Israel surrounded by Arab Muslims. Except the oppressed Palestinian Muslim extremists, no other Muslims go to kill Jews. And that is more for political reasons than religious reasons.
The discourse in the Muslim world about Jews is utterly shocking. Not only is there Holocaust denial—there’s Holocaust denial that then asserts that we will do it for real if given the chance. The only thing more obnoxious than denying the Holocaust is to say that it should have happened; it didn’t happen, but if we get the chance, we will accomplish it. There are children’s shows that teach five-year-olds about the glories of martyrdom and about the necessity of killing Jews.
Jewish children are also taught to hate Muslims. In Israel tvs, children recently said that they would occupy more and more lands and they would be able to control better. They got applauds. Look at those pictures, where Jewish children are writing ‘from Israel with love’ on missiles which will soon be dropped in Palestine and kill children. And the picture of a Jewish boy and his mother who were harassing and physically abusing a Muslim woman who was just walking on the streets. If Jewish were Palestinian Muslims, they would have done the same thing what Palestinians have been doing.
If Palestinian children could get security, secular education, proper nutrition, no poverty, no worries, and good environment, one day many of them could have become like Jewish physicists, scientists, film makers, writers etc.
And this gets to the heart of the moral difference between Israel and her enemies. And this is something I discussed in The End of Faith. To see this moral difference, you have to ask what each side would do if they had the power to do it.
What would the Jews do to the Palestinians if they could do anything they wanted? Well, we know the answer to that question, because they can do more or less anything they want. The Israeli army could kill everyone in Gaza tomorrow. So what does that mean? Well, it means that, when they drop a bomb on a beach and kill four Palestinian children, as happened last week, this is almost certainly an accident. They’re not targeting children. They could target as many children as they want. Every time a Palestinian child dies, Israel edges ever closer to becoming an international pariah. So the Israelis take great pains not to kill children and other noncombatants. [Note: The word “so” in the previous sentence was regrettable and misleading. I didn’t mean to suggest that safeguarding its reputation abroad would be the only (or even primary) reason for Israel to avoid killing children. However, the point stands: Even if you want to attribute the basest motives to Israel, it is clearly in her self-interest not to kill Palestinian children.]
Israel can kill anyone in Gaza tomorrow. They are doing it anyway. They are intentionally killing innocent people. How do you know that killing children on the beach was an accident? The beach was far away from commercial and residential areas. That beach killing could not be an accident. Even some Zionists blamed Israel for killing children who were playing football on the beach. But it is our big famous atheist Sam Harris who is defending the killer.
Now, is it possible that some Israeli soldiers go berserk under pressure and wind up shooting into crowds of rock-throwing children? Of course. You will always find some soldiers acting this way in the middle of a war. But we know that this isn’t the general intent of Israel. We know the Israelis do not want to kill non-combatants, because they could kill as many as they want, and they’re not doing it.
How would we know that killing is not the general intent of Israel? We saw how Israel invading and occupying Palestinians’ land, dropping bombs on civilian houses, killing hundreds of children. Anyone could realize that invading, blockading, occupying and killing were Israel’s intentions. They could kill all Palestinians. But they are not killing everyone right now, probably because they want to kill systematically and slowly. Because they want to be recognized as victims, not as fascists. If they did not have any intention to kill people, they would not have killed people at all.
Hamas is a terrorist organization. You are a state. You should not and must not behave like Hamas. You should not and must not violate your neighbors’ right to live only because some terrorists disturb you.
What do we know of the Palestinians? What would the Palestinians do to the Jews in Israel if the power imbalance were reversed? Well, they have told us what they would do. For some reason, Israel’s critics just don’t want to believe the worst about a group like Hamas, even when it declares the worst of itself. We’ve already had a Holocaust and several other genocides in the 20th century. People are capable of committing genocide. When they tell us they intend to commit genocide, we should listen. There is every reason to believe that the Palestinians would kill all the Jews in Israel if they could. Would every Palestinian support genocide? Of course not. But vast numbers of them—and of Muslims throughout the world—would. Needless to say, the Palestinians in general, not just Hamas, have a history of targeting innocent noncombatants in the most shocking ways possible. They’ve blown themselves up on buses and in restaurants. They’ve massacred teenagers. They’ve murdered Olympic athletes. They now shoot rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas. And again, the charter of their government in Gaza explicitly tells us that they want to annihilate the Jews—not just in Israel but everywhere. [Note: Again, I realize that not all Palestinians support Hamas. Nor am I discounting the degree to which the occupation, along with collateral damage suffered in war, has fueled Palestinian rage. But Palestinian terrorism (and Muslim anti-Semitism) is what has made peaceful coexistence thus far impossible.]
The truth is that everything you need to know about the moral imbalance between Israel and her enemies can be understood on the topic of human shields. Who uses human shields? Well, Hamas certainly does. They shoot their rockets from residential neighborhoods, from beside schools, and hospitals, and mosques. Muslims in other recent conflicts, in Iraq and elsewhere, have also used human shields. They have laid their rifles on the shoulders of their own children and shot from behind their bodies.
Consider the moral difference between using human shields and being deterred by them. That is the difference we’re talking about. The Israelis and other Western powers are deterred, however imperfectly, by the Muslim use of human shields in these conflicts, as we should be. It is morally abhorrent to kill noncombatants if you can avoid it. It’s certainly abhorrent to shoot through the bodies of children to get at your adversary. But take a moment to reflect on how contemptible this behavior is. And understand how cynical it is. The Muslims are acting on the assumption—the knowledge, in fact—that the infidels with whom they fight, the very people whom their religion does nothing but vilify, will be deterred by their use of Muslim human shields. They consider the Jews the spawn of apes and pigs—and yet they rely on the fact that they don’t want to kill Muslim noncombatants. [Note: The term “Muslims” in this paragraph means “Muslim combatants” of the sort that Western forces have encountered in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere. The term “jihadists” would have been too narrow, but I was not suggesting that all Muslims support the use of human shields or are anti-Semitic, at war with the West, etc.]
Jews would have terrorized the way Palestinians terrorized if Jews were in Palestinians’ situation. If Jews were living in a land for hundreds of years, and suddenly saw that Muslims came from Europe, stole their land and settled there because their holy book asked them to do so— and then occupied more and more land and killed more and more people, — Jews would be doing every bad thing in their desperate situation.
There is no evidence than Hamas uses children as human shield. Hamas kept their weapons inside UN schools, thinking that Israel won’t bomb schools. But Israel bombed almost everything. They bombed civilian houses, hospitals, schools. And there was a roof knocking thing, yes Israel knocked roof before bombing. But after around 50 seconds of roof knocking Israel bombed and demolished houses, and killed children and women. Israel used illegal and dangerous dime bombs and depleted uranium to kill people, those bombs are also carcinogenic. It looks like Israel has an intention to wipe out Palestinians, to get rid of trouble makers, for ‘so called self defense’.
People shut their mouth, they won’t say anything against Jews even if Jews commit crimes, they won’t say because they fear of being called anti-Semite. Sam Harris, you yourself is an anti-Semite. Saying against the Quran and Arab Muslims are also anti-Semitic. Like Hebrew, Arabic language is a Semitic language.
Now imagine reversing the roles here. Imagine how fatuous—indeed comical it would be—for the Israelis to attempt to use human shields to deter the Palestinians. Some claim that they have already done this. There are reports that Israeli soldiers have occasionally put Palestinian civilians in front of them as they’ve advanced into dangerous areas. That’s not the use of human shields we’re talking about. It’s egregious behavior. No doubt it constitutes a war crime. But Imagine the Israelis holding up their own women and children as human shields. Of course, that would be ridiculous. The Palestinians are trying to kill everyone. Killing women and children is part of the plan. Reversing the roles here produces a grotesque Monty Python skit.
If you’re going talk about the conflict in the Middle East, you have to acknowledge this difference. I don’t think there’s any ethical disparity to be found anywhere that is more shocking or consequential than this.
And the truth is, this isn’t even the worst that jihadists do. Hamas is practically a moderate organization, compared to other jihadist groups. There are Muslims who have blown themselves up in crowds of children—again, Muslim children—just to get at the American soldiers who were handing out candy to them. They have committed suicide bombings, only to send another bomber to the hospital to await the casualities—where they then blow up all the injured along with the doctors and nurses trying to save their lives.
Every day that you could read about an Israeli rocket gone astray or Israeli soldiers beating up an innocent teenager, you could have read about ISIS in Iraq crucifying people on the side of the road, Christians and Muslims. Where is the outrage in the Muslim world and on the Left over these crimes? Where are the demonstrations, 10,000 or 100,000 deep, in the capitals of Europe against ISIS? If Israel kills a dozen Palestinians by accident, the entire Muslim world is inflamed. God forbid you burn a Koran, or write a novel vaguely critical of the faith. And yet Muslims can destroy their own societies—and seek to destroy the West—and you don’t hear a peep.
So, it seems to me, that you have to side with Israel here. You have one side which if it really could accomplish its aims would simply live peacefully with its neighbors, and you have another side which is seeking to implement a seventh century theocracy in the Holy Land. There’s no peace to be found between those incompatible ideas. That doesn’t mean you can’t condemn specific actions on the part of the Israelis. And, of course, acknowledging the moral disparity between Israel and her enemies doesn’t give us any solution to the problem of Israel’s existence in the Middle East. [Note: I was not suggesting that Israel’s actions are above criticism or that their recent incursion into Gaza was necessarily justified. Nor was I saying that the status quo, wherein the Palestinians remain stateless, should be maintained. By “siding with Israel,” I am simply recognizing that they are not the primary aggressors in this conflict. They are, rather, responding to aggression—and at a terrible cost.]
Again, granted, there’s some percentage of Jews who are animated by their own religious hysteria and their own prophesies. Some are awaiting the Messiah on contested land. Yes, these people are willing to sacrifice the blood of their own children for the glory of God. But, for the most part, they are not representative of the current state of Judaism or the actions of the Israeli government. And it is how Israel deals with these people—their own religious lunatics—that will determine whether they can truly hold the moral high ground. And Israel can do a lot more than it has to disempower them. It can cease to subsidize the delusions of the Ultra-Orthodox and it can stop building settlements on contested land. [Note: Read that again.]
This incompatible religious attachments to this land has made it impossible for Muslims and Jews to negotiate like rational human beings, and it has made it impossible for them to live in peace. But the onus is still more on the side of the Muslims here. Even on their worst day, the Israelis act with greater care and compassion and self-criticism than Muslim combatants have anywhere, ever.
And again, you have to ask yourself, what do these groups want? What would they accomplish if they could accomplish anything? What would the Israelis do if they could do what they want? They would live in peace with their neighbors, if they had neighbors who would live in peace with them. They would simply continue to build out their high tech sector and thrive.
What do groups like ISIS and al-Qaeda and even Hamas want? They want to impose their religious views on the rest of humanity. They want stifle every freedom that decent, educated, secular people care about. This is not a trivial difference. And yet judging from the level of condemnation that Israel now receives, you would think the difference ran the other way.
This kind of confusion puts all of us in danger. This is the great story of our time. For the rest of our lives, and the lives of our children, we are going to be confronted by people who don’t want to live peacefully in a secular, pluralistic world, because they are desperate to get to Paradise, and they are willing to destroy the very possibility of human happiness along the way. The truth is, we are all living in Israel. It’s just that some of us haven’t realized it yet.
Those Muslims are ignorant or bad who do not cry for the Muslims killed by Muslim terrorist organizations like ISIS, Boko haram etc but cry for Muslims of Gaza killed by Israel. But it does not justify Israel’s killing of innocent people.
This is my personal view based on my personal circumstances. As an atheist and openly gay men I could live in Israel without issues. I could even serve in the military. I could even (for all practical purposes) live as a married couple with my same sex partner under the common law marriage. On the other hand, in a Muslim country I would consider myself lucky if I kept my head over my shoulders, not to mention having any sort of equality or fair treatment. What is happening in Gaza is terrible but to say that both sides are the same or even comparable is just absurd. Although i don’t agree with the way they are handling the situation, i liked Sam’s piece and it is hard for me not to take Israel’s side.
Taslima, if Israel is finally defeated by sheer force of numbers, and most of the Jews are killed and the rest leave the area…will you be happy then?
Sam Harris forgets a few things, mostly related to the fact that the Israelis are invaders of the land.
Harris cannot say that Israelis want to live in peace with their neighbors, when the only neighbors the individual Israelis recognize are other Israelis, and while the original inhabitants of the land are driven from their own neighborhoods. In the larger, nation sense, the nation of Israel was set up in conflict with the nations around it, from the start.
Harris cannot excuse Israeli actions as being inevitable effects of war, when the Jewish people started the war. They invaded Palestine, deliberately and militarily, and Harris cannot now shrug off anything that they do as if it just happened to happen.
Harris cannot speak of Israeli civilians. The Israelis are invaders, still at war. If they chose to bring children into their war zone, they are responsible for what happens to them. If they expect special consideration of those “civilians” they are very close to using them as human shields. If the Israeli adults are all in their military or militia, or are all military trained, or are armed at all times with military arms, they are not civilians. If a nation the size of Israel has the fourth biggest military in the world, it cannot have many civilian areas.
Harris cannot say that the Jews wanted a homeland where they would be safe from persecution and death, and just drop the issue as if that justifies everything. First, the Holocaust and general progress in the world have made many nations safe for Jewish people to live in. They took that homeland through the persecution and death of the Palestinians. They now suffer persecution and death in that homeland.
Harris condemns the people in Gaza for their actions. He forgets that they have seen their homeland invaded, and their crowded refuge attacked by the invader, a heavily-armed religiously-motivated invader.
I do not support the Muslim religions, nor do I condemn Judaism any more than any other religion. I do not take the side of one or the other. I say that the Gaza situation is a mess, and the fighting isn’t going to clear it up.
Very well said.
Okay, I’m going to clue you in on something here… Please listen carefully…
IT IS IN THE HAMAS CHARTER THAT IT IS THEIR DUTY, RESPONSIBILITY, AND RELIGIOUS OBLIGATION TO REMOVE THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND REPLACE IT WITH A MUSLIM CONTROLLED GOVERNMENT AND FREE THE REGION OF BOTH THE PRESENCE AND INFLUENCE OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE.
There are 32 articles in the Hamas Charter… Articles 6, 7, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 20, 22, 28, and 32 are ALL concerning how it is the religious duty of ALL Muslims to fight for the dissolution of Israel and the expulsion of all Jews from the region as well as how this fight should be carried out
Ms Nasreen, Your pro terrorist rant ain’t enough to refute the charter of Hamas .
So a political organization in one group says it up front, and the actions of the military of the other group says similar things.
Sorry but I get to tell both Hamas and Israel to fuck off. Hamas might wish it could do what it’s charter says, but when the actions of Israel create similar sorts of indiscriminate violence I’m not going to ignore that. As far as I’m concerned until Israel decides that it should it should exercise more intelligence and care than the blanket bombings of cities in the world wars they should be politically abandoned at best. As a nation they do not act like any ally that I would ever associate with.
Taslima Nasreen was lying by bragging that there is no evidence that Hamas use women & children as shield. Demonstrably false. You have the confession of Hamas spokesperson in his own national television. Ms Nasreen proved herself as a deplorable, shameless liar . You’d NOT lie in a forum. Subjective analysis is one thing. You may agree or disagree but she is lying in her essay. Her perfidy is shocking.
Your criticism of Israel is Strawman fallacy. Israel warns the Palestinian with text messages that they are coming to bomb a particular house. Then they make a warning attack by firing rocket in air before demolishing the building and lastly they hit the building. No force in the world including US & UK does that anywhere. These humanitarian efforts give them enough disadvantages in their war against terror. Your post confirms that you don’t know a squat about the function of IDF. Your information is based on hearsay stories .
“Taslima Nasreen was lying by bragging that there is no evidence that Hamas use women & children as shield. Demonstrably false.”
Cite the portion of her text that demonstrates your claim. I can not and will not assess YOUR claim until you show me specifically where she is doing what you claim.
You can say that something is a strawman fallacy until you asphyxiate. Demonstrate it. Cite my text and show where it is a fallacy.
To Quote Taslima ”There is no evidence than Hamas uses children as human shield. Hamas kept their weapons inside UN schools, thinking that Israel won’t bomb schools. But Israel bombed almost everything. ”
This is one of many flat lies that Ms Nasreen made in her reply . There is no dearth of evidence . Infact Hamas spokesperson made confession of using women & children as shield in their own Al Aqsa TV. You can’t unsoil a criminal after his confession , which is my point . Evidence are overwhelming in demonstrating this lie of Ms Nasreen . This is one of many Strawman attack made by her .
Try again. That’s criticism of claims being made about Hamas and people can criticize claims about Hamas without actually supporting Hamas.
I simply don’t believe that Ms. Nasrin supports Hamas. For example up above where I said that both Israel and Hamas can fuck off.
I don’t know how interested you are, Taslima, in having “guest post” articles; but this comment by Menyambal is clear and calm and to the point. I think it deserves greater prominence and more discussion.
Would you post the comment as a “guest post”?
Did Ms. Nasrin write that this comment by Menyambal is “very well said”? Sad to say that I just lost all respect for her if she thinks that all Israeli children are legitimate military targets.
I am amazed that you translated Sam Harris’ words that way. It sounds like motivated reasoning is driving your position. Sam is simply saying, he “kept some sense of proportion”, and then proceeded to mention that there are 15 million Jews compared to 1.5 billion muslims. Then, he pointed out that by percentage, very few Jews actually take their religion literally and that a huge number of observant Jews are actually atheist. Sam has never said a word that indicates he hates any group of people. Criticizing an ideology is criticizing ideas.
Ma’m, with due respect to you as you being among most courageous people we know, but somehow I feel you are more leaned to wear comfortable hat rather than debating/proposing non-philosphical real solutions.
I don’t understand why you feel being neutral or being atheist are only fundamental values. They are neither fundamental laws of nature nor fundamental duties of humanity. They help you to look things impersonally, but certainly not the best way. Best way, anyways, are the scientific empirical methods, the premise on which modern world rests and field of knowledge has invariably founded.
Second, enormity of a thing certainly qualifies/disqualifies it as the top most preference to be seriously dealt with. Enormity of dangerous Islamic behaviour(not just ideology), is certainly fit to be debated for a solution most profoundly, along with problems due geopolitical population dynamics. Almost all nations, including muslims, are becoming great victims. This is becoming universally true.
My personal experience with general muslims(unrelated to Israel/Jews) is that they hate jews religiously and garb it with political reasons. That is on premise of Mohammed’s jewish interactions.
Muslim nations and people, fall on back of Mohammed, for smallest of laws. Close neighbours of Israel have always been attacking it. Muslims neighbours always in difficulties with non-muslims. India’s humiliation at hands of Islam is the most deadly happening, same thing happened with many other cultures. There will always be height to anything. Great genocides, hate of enemies, murder, loot, rapes, enslavements, conspiracy theories etc are Islamic consistent behaviour. Even with such great enormity of curses from Islam, muslim masses didn’t revolt especially in last century. This has created deep burning insecurities among non-muslims.
Either you propose rational realist solutions or don’t define a spectrum where you carve incoherent bandwidth for each individual irrationality.
Religions stand on their literature, figure heads, traditions-cultures and people. Hence, its a lie that all are same and equal on different standards.
I hope you won’t be neutral which emanates inconsistency but debate on solutions through empirical methods, without getting incoherent in criticism.
Are you saying that Ms. Nasrin is being neutral or arguing for some sort of nutrality? Because I don’t see her being neutral at all.
Also I have no reason to believe that your experience is representative of reality with respect to Muslims. Should I let the experience of randomly chosen parents of a child killed by Israel’s military determine my opinion of all of Israel? Neither will I let your single experience determine what I think of Muslims. You will have to do better than that.
Great Majority of theocratic constitutions among muslim nations, democratic muslim nations running through popular vote having islamic and sharia based constitution and Institutions of legislation, execution and judiciary is enough to say otherwise to what you say. And, then it is majoritarian, when lands have been divided on basis of religion and natives totally decimated or made second class citizens.
Population of Hindus in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kashmir before 1947 >24%, ~30%, >15%.
Now, in 2014, < 2%, < 8%, ~0%. Thats majoritarian muslims doing.
How it relates to current article is Sam Harris was also relating things to Islamic hate, but in-turn he is termed hater. Line is so fine, that, if you criticise religion, followers think their existence is criticized. Worst is independent observers also fall into this fallacy.
My personal little baby experiences dont amount to a rule. Muslims are humans in flesh, blood and consciousness. Its Islam, which is clearly hardening the wall.
I am just an average person, a Hindu from India. And what I see everywhere, insecurities among non-muslims is growing like never before. So, instead of normalization of facts, please do something to resolve things.
All these things doesn't mean, my religion and other religions, don't pose problems to human sensibilities.
As I said, "Religions stand on their literature, figure heads, traditions-cultures and people".
Problems came/come from any pillars among these. We must be cautious all around.
But Islam, is clearly standing out by exciting to the extremes.
1. You completely avoided my request. “Are you saying that Ms. Nasrin is being neutral or arguing for some sort of nutrality?” Because I don’t see her being neutral at all.” Please cite where Ms. Nasrin is being neutral or be shown to be a coward.
I don’t give a fuck about other Muslim nations unless you demonstrate the significance, stick to what is happening around Israel unless you have a specific reason to expand the region of interest.
“…when lands have been divided on basis of religion and natives…”
I’ve read about what native peoples suffer because of similar problems at the hands of Christian and other cultures and if you can’t keep things rational and relevant you are useless to me and you can fuck right off. I’ve seen Muslim and every other nation try to define by some arbitrary standard of what is a “True X” and the standards always suck. Your standards also seem to suck in a similar way.
“How it relates to current article is Sam Harris was also relating things to Islamic hate, but in-turn he is termed hater.”
Then cite Ms. Nasrin’s specific sections, and say why she is wrong with citations. I have ZERO reason to listen to you unless you do this.
“My personal little baby experiences dont amount to a rule.”
Then screw off until you can present a rationally created rule. If you can’t define a rule you are just part of the primate noise that surrounds me and I will rule your words out until you can give me a cited and logically explained reason to listen. You are noise to be filtered out otherwise.
“I am just an average person, a Hindu from India.”
And I’m just a,
You know, It does not matter what I am. Either my arguments make sense or they do not. Yours stand the same. Fuck who you are and where you come from without a reason why your arguments make more sense.
“…don’t pose problems to human sensibilities.”
You can’t tell me what to do with out a good reason and I will tell you to fuck off at every example of an order without a reason.
“All these things doesn’t mean, my religion and other religions, don’t pose problems to human sensibilities.”
At least you can sense that I suspect that religious thinking is toxic to humans in a general sense. But this is still a distraction from what is happening in Israel. Stick to the topic.
“As I said, ‘Religions stand on their literature, figure heads, traditions-cultures and people'”
And their real-world actions. I don’t give a fuck what they believe. If their actions are inconsistent with their beliefs they are not worth listening to. Cite the beliefs in question. I’ve experienced enough problems at the hands of non-Muslim religions to require more than what you present.
@ All
This guy Brony is pleading NOT to drag any other Muslim nation in Israel debate .Nonetheless , he is trying to deflect the criticism on Christianity . At the same time he is declaring that he is a Hindu . Two gram of logical thinking is enough to expose his Taqiyya .
You are a Indian Hindu as you put in . Your own government declare some organisation as terrorist or banned organisation . There are communist ,atheist , Maoist terrorist. There are some terrorist that are regional divide . The ONLY RELIGIOUS TERRORIST organisation as cognized by your own Ministry of Homes are Islamic organisation
Your self victimhood at the hand of non Muslim organisation is unverifiable fact. It could be a part of your Islamic Taqiyya . The way you misread and dodge truth , I have little trust in your honesty .
That, in a very tight competition with a LOT of entries, is the most hilariously stupid thing you’ve said so far. I cannot imagine how you’ll top it, but the form book says you’re odds-on.
My dear Brony,
Clearly she starts her case in 1st line with measurement of “neutrality ” and 2nd para with specifications of “atheism”.
She wrote “If your religion is very important to you and you are an atheist, then something is wrong with you. ”
But I can’t agree, Hindus have various tradition where they are atheists, and that is openly by choice without fear of anything-anyone, but remaining a Hindu.
I wrote “I don’t understand why you feel being neutral or being atheist are only fundamental values.”
This was like asking a clarification without assuming much not a hardliner preoccupation nor image building.
She wrote “He is as Muslim hater …” And then his articles.
He is clearly going few steps ahead and few steps back in his arguments, this makes debate keep going as fine details are put in words. He clearly didn’t express hatred atleast in this article. Instead he was making a point that there is an invariably consistent pattern to Islamic barbarian behaviour, which is adding to Palestinian woes.
I was clearly showing the consistent pattern among Islamic behaviours which is also coverging together from around the world in Palestine, to further the conflict. My real facts were highly relevant to create caution for everybody to go ahead sensibly.
But, my bad, you try to divert a lot and shoving yourself on me trying to be smart or bully.
No discussion of solution which I consistently appealed to, but serious things are boring I guess to bring to your attention and then you have nothing other than rants ie fuck off fuck off fuck off. Keep going.
Clearly as I am getting aware of things, world should put pressure on Israel not to attack civilians. Hamas and arabs must be checked to put less money in arms and Islam, more money on education. Palestinians should be encouraged to not see Jews as enemies, same with Israel. They both shuold be encouraged to do joint excercises in field of education and infrastructure building. And, at the same time, they should be encouraged to either accept everybody to settle anywhere there or asked to demarcate the boundaries. Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Iran, Saudi, Syria have added more to woes, so, they must be checked to a point.
Dear Gwen Stacy,
Mr. Brony was replying to mine comment and I am the “Hindu” from india.
Mr. Brony is not serious about anything. He is clearly diverting and deflecting reasoning to gutter.
No way Sam Harris looks a Hater of Muslims in this article. He is putting more details to be debated for while taking stand against Islamic extremism.
The Author of this current page didn’t show much historical depth and is in over simplification of a very complicated case.
I request everybody to debate more on realistic solutions.
I rest my case.
@ Gwen
Pleading? Nah, I just don’t accept the reasoning. You can try to drag in whatever you want.
Deflect criticism of Christianity? Criticize away. Christianity is just as much bullshit as Islam, Judaism and all the rest. Hinduism included. But don’t let me stop you from demonstrating that you depend on group-think to get anywhere. It’s why you absolutely need to put a label of your favorite hated groups on me. Last week I got labeled a Jew, one I was called a Republican and a Democrat in the same thread. Folks such as yourself are quite robotic in your way but it does not have to be a permanent condition.
@ Prats
You clearly misread her piece. She was saying that Harris was trying to look neutral and was not. She was not claiming neutrality for herself. So all that other stuff is a little useless since you are attacking claims that she seems to have never made.
What I hate is that Sam Harris doesn’t really address the actual relevant recent issues.
Like what does it mean to “side with Israel”? Is peace not an Israeli goal here? There’s anti-jewish attitudes all around the Muslim world. How about we try to prevent that by not killing Palestinians? How is any of this productive at all for producing a better world?
Like it’s completely ridiculous to make this about ‘taking sides’ which is the attitude he’s taking here. There are plenty of Israelis who condemn this kind of action as well.
Israel averred ‘Palestinian Civilians’ to evacuate 5 Minutes before Israel is going to attack the Hamas terrorist base next door.What do these ‘Palestinian Civilians’ do? Gather more civilians and stand on the roof as long as ‘Allah wants’.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iu4FyGTZyK4#!
Before YOU call it propoganda video . I’m going to validate my position by their own confession in their own channel Al Aqsa TV. (Memri Tv merely translated the video) There is no dearth of videos enough to prove the use of civilian as human shield .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ6S0-o3uFI
The confession of Hamas spokesperson of using civilian as human shield is recorded in their own channel . The corrdinate of my position is that You can’t assoil a criminal after his confession, unless you plead insanity.Ms Nasreen, I urge you to stop lying . You bluff is all hot air & all it need a few evidence to deflate it.
I don’t even need to see the videos. I can totally believe that civilians are standing on the roofs of their buildings in order to prevent them from being bombed. If I was being that badly oppressed by and I had the benefit of the media attention I might choose to do something like that too.
No. I don’t have to assume that this is Hamas though I can believe that they are encouraging it. It’s just as likely desperate civilians that don’t really like having a prison camp for a country.
Israel left Palestines years ago . I concur with people who detest Israel for invading Hamas when they fire 2000 rocket per day . Israel was deluded in their belief that trying to make the lives of Palestine better by building schools ,hospital,water plant and making power supply would alter their hatred toward Israel.
The biggest mistake the Israel makes in the Middle East is misevaluating that REMNANT of the Middle East are “reasonable”, That if the Israel goes in and completely rebuilds the country turning it from a completely backwards UNION of illiterate goat-herders into a modern country where everyone is educated and living in comfort they would be happy. The sad fact is that natives of the Middle East are NOT reasonable… The more you help them and the better their lives are, the angrier and more resentful they become.
Don’t try to “win the hearts” of people like that… Just ignore them
Reposting my post” My favorite occurrence to date happened a few years ago when Palestine demanded that the Israelis leave Palestine and Israel basically said, “Fine!” and left. Within two weeks the Palestinians were complaining about the fact that the Israelis had left. Apparently the electrical and water plants started failing because all the Israeli engineers had left and none of the Palestinians knew how to actually operate those plants. So they demanded that the Israelis RETURN to Palestine. That had me laughing for nearly a week”
“Israel left Palestines years ago .”
Demonstrate this.
“I concur with people who detest Israel for invading Hamas when they fire 2000 rocket per day . Israel was deluded in their belief that trying to make the lives of Palestine better by building schools ,hospital,water plant and making power supply would alter their hatred toward Israel.”
And the solution to this problem is what if you don’t agree with the current responses?
“The biggest mistake the Israel makes in the Middle East is misevaluating that REMNANT of the Middle East are “reasonable”, That if the Israel goes in and completely rebuilds the country turning it from a completely backwards UNION of illiterate goat-herders into a modern country where everyone is educated and living in comfort they would be happy.”
Demonstrate that all of the middle east are “…illiterate goat-herders…” and most importantly why that matters. I have no reason to think that they are not reasonable until you demonstrate this. The opinion of one person and what they think about long-term help matters nothing at all without this.
“Don’t try to “win the hearts” of people like that… Just ignore them”
Personally I’m temped to just ignore you without reason for your words. Opinions are everywhere. Rationally supported opinions are more rare.
@Brony :
I guess it depends on where you draw the boundaries which are still highly contentious.
Hamas claims all of the former mandate of Palestine is there which would mean Israel cannot exist at least as we know it.
Israel handed parts of what it knows as Judea and Samaria and others know as the West Bank ( i.e.of the Jordan river- essentially West Jordan) to the Palestinian authority – formerly PLO and ruled by the Fatah faction in the early to mid 1990’s following the Oslo accords. Unfortunately these famous Nobel-wining accords broke down into violence with PA president Yasser Arafat turning down a generous peace offer and choosing to launch a war (second Al Aqsa Intifada) instead. Despite this war, some areas of Judea & Samaria / West Bank remain under palestinian governance today notably their de facto capital Ramallah.
Israel voluntarily departed form the Gaza Strip in 2005 withdrawing military occupation and jewish settlements and handing the whole area over into Palestinian control. The palestinian factions notably Hamas and Fatah then fought their own internal civil war over Gaza and Hamas emerged in charge and used it to fire rockets at Israel resulting in the present regular,tragic cycle of violence.
So, yes, the Israelis did leave at least large parts of “Palestine” many years ago. Nearly ten years of in the case of Gaza and longer still for some WestBank / Judean and Samaritan areas.
But to demand that they leave the whole of “Palestine” is to demand that israel is completely destroyed and wiped from the map replaced by another islamist state, which, I hope everyone realises is a rather appalling and unacceptable demand.
Also Brony, may I remind you the current conflict is about Hamas firing rockets and using tunnels to launch terrorist attacks on civilians. Those attacks and rocketfire needs to stop. Don’t you agree?
Hamas can end the war at end time by stopping its terrorism. What do you think they gain and why do you think they refuse to just do that?
@ StevoR
How do you think that relates to Gwen’s “My favorite occurrence to date happened a few years ago when Palestine demanded that the Israelis leave Palestine and Israel basically said, “Fine!” and left.”, a statement remarkable in it’s vagueness and characterization that makes it nearly impossible for another to look up.
“But to demand that they leave the whole of “Palestine” is to demand that israel is completely destroyed and wiped from the map replaced by another islamist state, which, I hope everyone realises is a rather appalling and unacceptable demand. ”
That is a black and white characterization that I do not accept, regardless of what the charters of associated organizations might say. Depending on the perspective “leaving Palestine” can mean everything from removal of Israeli citizens (unacceptable, neighbors need to learn to get along), to Palestinians getting the autonomy to control their lands (reasonable). I’m not one to pretend that everyone in the West Bank and Gaza is going to be identical on these issues (not making assumptions about you, just referencing other commenters here).
“Also Brony, may I remind you the current conflict is about Hamas firing rockets and using tunnels to launch terrorist attacks on civilians. Those attacks and rocketfire needs to stop. Don’t you agree? ”
I refuse to ignore the historical context preceding the current situation, and of course terrorist actions including firing rockets on civilians and related tunnel activities should be condemned and “dealt with”. The bit in the quotes is what I have a problem with.
Yes Israel can and should be able to take steps to protect it’s people and prevent terrorist activity. But there comes a point where the response is functionally and emotionally identical to what they are opposing and when they stray into that territory I put them in the same emotional box that I do Hamas and prioritize my criticism by who is currently causing the most suffering.
My favorite occurrence to date happened a few years ago when Palestine demanded that the Israelis leave Palestine and Israel basically said, “Fine!” and left. Within two weeks the Palestinians were complaining about the fact that the Israelis had left. Apparently the electrical and water plants started failing because all the Israeli engineers had left and none of the Palestinians knew how to actually operate those plants. So they demanded that the Israelis RETURN to Palestine. That had me laughing for nearly a week
I m more influenced by Sam’s explanation than Taslimas rebuttals ……although last lines by d blogger are absolutely right.
I concur with you . She’s trying to defend Hamas with logic . Her rebuttal is a blend of logical fallacies ” Argument from absurdities ” and ”argument from ignorance” . She’d have watched at least videos of Hamas in their own children . She’d have read Charter of Hamas
Show me where Ms. Nasrin is defending Hamas.
Show me where did Sam Harris shows hate? If he is going 2 steps forward and 1 step backwards, just to cover all aspects of conflict, he can’t be termed hater.
If by above commentary, he is hater, then Ms. Taslima is Islam lover(It goes both ways)
Clearly, Sam Harris was trying to see from top to relate to a root cause, that’s Islam, where I sense thats true for enumerable such happenings across time and globe.
Ms Taslima, seems to have a one event objective bias.
Second, when she says Israel is wrong, that is subjective. Israel is wrong in killing of civilians. But, Israel is not wrong in attacking.
When she defends Palestinians killed, she should have also said, majority Palestinians must not have put faith in Hamas by vote and Islam by strictness. She didn’t.
She says Israel is of invaders. Of 8 millions citizens 1.6 millions are Arab muslims, more than 2 millions jews came from Saudi, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Ottaman empire, Iraq, Egypt, all other north African muslim lands, apart from palestinian jews and europian jews. To say Israel are invaders, is gross wrong. It is just complicated.
But to say them invaders, has poor justification in history and vidicate Muslims stand that Mohammed was good man to brutalize jews out of muslim gatherings. If anything, She must be cautious in every word, if she expects it from others.
Thats why I said earlier, she has great incoherency in carving the bandwidths on her spectrum of irrationalities.
“Show me where Ms. Nasrin is defending Hamas.”
A real Advocate would be able to answer this question. Until you can actually answer questions you are not worth the effort because I have no reason to listen to you. Why should I answer your questions if you can’t answer mine? All else you say is noise until you get over your cowardice.
Dear Bony,
“If ordinary Muslims could get proper education….”
“Muslims are deprived of their rights to become enlightened by corrupt Muslim authorities and oppressive religious systems”
These are just a falsehood. Billion+ people, 50+ strong nations(few very rich) of their own following, then also if-buts on education and deprivation of rights, this argument is not acceptable.
“The percentage of ‘dangerous Muslim religious extremists’ is not really much. If the percentage was high, we all atheists would have been killed a long time ago.”
For this I already shown you the truth in earlier post –
“Great Majority of theocratic constitutions among muslim nations, democratic muslim nations running through popular vote having islamic and sharia based constitution and Institutions of legislation, execution and judiciary is enough to say otherwise to what you say. And, then it is majoritarian, when lands have been divided on basis of religion and natives totally decimated or made second class citizens.
Population of Hindus in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kashmir before 1947 >24%, ~30%, >15%.
Now, in 2014, < 2%, < 8%, ~0%. Thats majoritarian muslims doing."
"Israel is the 4th largest military power in the world"
"When Israel kills 1000, Hamas only can manage to kill 20 or so."
"If Muslims followed Koranic advice to kill Jews, they would have killed Jews everywhere, in America, in Europe, in Asia, in Africa"
"There is no evidence than Hamas uses children as human shield"
"Saying against the Quran ….. are also anti-Semitic."
These last 5 lines more look like work of PR agents in support for Hamas.
Israel clearly is beyond top 10-15 big armies.
Israel killed in defensive attack. Hamas started it. Israel killed 1000 but Hamas couldnt but Hamas did attack in fierce gravity. Israel could defend successfully. There is no justification of killing of children but sheer foolish justification to make attack-to-attack as game of equality.
"If musims …. would have killed jews…." Again, if doesn't help, in other countries they have their own laws, which muslims can't bypass just for fun of Islam. In there own lands, jews lived like dimmis or historically killed. Mohammed was a choicest example.
"…no evidence.. that Hamas…." rant rant, plain lie, PR work, as Lady Gwen above show by examples.
"Saying against Quran… also anti-semitic". Greatest of all delusions or may be falsehood.
PR work for Hamas is semi explicit support. No further argument.
Finally you came out to be a diverter and no worth reasoning. No further argument. I loose. You don't have anything to answer or acknowledge numbers or facts, but justify foolishness of your choice, no talk of resolution(most important thing) but just rant.
Keep going.
Prats, those quotes have to do with Muslims, not Hamas. I said for evidence that she defended Hamas. Unless you happen to believe that all Muslims are like Hamas. If that’s the case you have just put yourself in the same box as the ones that think all Jews use the blood of Christians in crackers, or those that think all atheists are baby-eating monsters.
@Doublereed
If you’re familiar with combat engineering the term CEP ,circular error probable , is a measure of weapon system precision . The CEP in world war 2 was around half a mile but thanks to LGB,laser guided bomb , it is only 10 feet .Nonetheless , this 10 feet is futile if Hamas fire rocket from civilian institution . The meat of my argument is that Israel or any other nation cannot minimize civilian casuality .
Now you’re getting into the second most important motivation of terrorism, narcissism. The reason terrorists choose the targets they do is to achieve the most media attention they can… It makes them feel important.
Most of the terrorist leaders follow the same trend, seeking media attention over everything else. However, addressing the underlying problems WILL reduce their recruiting effectiveness
Terrorists use human shields, hide in civilian institutions like hospitals and schools to avoid detection, and don’t wear uniforms to distinguish them from non-combatants.
If they are so concerned with the wellbeing of “innocent people” that get killed in the bombs dropped from above, they shouldnot be hiding in these places to begin with.
As long as Palestinian despise Jews more than they love their own Children they will harm themselve . Muslims have dysfunctional family . When children see their dad beating mom as permitted and encouraged in Quran 4:34 ,you’d not develop a healthy society . Children need a harmonious society . Loving parent can suffice such biosphere to them . You need to reanalyse your society instead of blaming Jews ,CIA and ,Mossad
If civilians are being killed I really don’t give a fuck about accuracy. If I used a means of securing my property that came with a probability of harming innocent bystanders that would be unacceptable no matter who I was trying to defend against. I really hope you are not one of my neighbors.
As for the rest of your garbage, I find it very fascinating that most of it amounts to excusing bad behavior by pointing to more bad behavior. None of the things that you point out justifies the systematic conversion of homes and territory into a humanitarian nightmare. If the local police started destroying the homes of innocent people living in the same neighborhoods as criminals “cause accuracy problems” that would be unacceptable.
That “rest of your garbage” bit was more globally directed at all of your comments here and not just this comment just to be clear.
You’re engaging in the logical fallacy of ”reductio ad absurdum” . You’d always have civilian casualties in war. There is NO way OUT. You’re NOT computing dynamics between militaries and civilians. Whether you believe it or not, civilians control the military.
It should also be pointed out that the Israel is actually being MORE careful about civilian causalities than Hamas that I’d demonstrate next . They gather intelligence reports, urges civilian to vacate places where Hamas hide their rocket with next, they also give warning signal by firing rocket in air as warning before demolishing a building & then they only hit building . These efforts poses great disadvantages to ’em . Yet they are doing it for humanatarian purposes . Your denial and ad nauseam is untenable .
After IDF fired a warning shot at this target in Gaza, civilians ran to the roof and brought their kids.
Hamas and the other terrorist organizations in the Gaza Strip have adopted various tactics of using civilians as human shields. One of them is encouraging civilians to gather on roofs to prevent terrorists and their houses from being attacked by the Israeli Air Force.
The civilians that are providing logistical support to the terrorists (They’re elected representative of Palestinians) hiding in their midst are willingly taking risk. Ergo, if they choose Omerta over expediency, they can’t complain later when Israel strike.
“You’d always have civilian casualties in war. There is NO way OUT. You’re NOT computing dynamics between militaries and civilians. Whether you believe it or not, civilians control the military. ”
Then show me the dynamics. Talk is cheap, you smell cheap.
“They gather intelligence reports, urges civilian to vacate places where Hamas hide their rocket with next, they also give warning signal by firing rocket in air as warning before demolishing a building & then they only hit building . ”
Citation needed. Otherwise I have no reason to listen to you. The rest of your screed is dependent on this.
But, “The civilians that are providing logistical support to the terrorists (They’re elected representative of Palestinians) hiding in their midst are willingly taking risk.”
Cite the election you refer to.
Masha Allah . Your taqiyya is baffling . Your rapist Prophet taught you to lie in Sunnah . As you admitted that you’re from India . The revolt of 1857 from Indian & mutiny by Indian force of East India company is a fact which demonstrate civilian controlling military . The Islamic revolution and overthrow of Shah & removal of Muslim Brotherhood are the example of Civilain controlling Militia . Your demands for such reference confirms that you’re ignorant like mule in your own history .
You want evidence for para second . Fair enough . Watch the interview of Israeli leaders in Al Jazeera . Poor guy . You don’t know anything in middle east and has strong opinion already .
Naftali Bennett slams Al Jazeera in interview: Your sponsors are the “world’s biggest funders of terror”
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183492#.U9lakuOSw2R
This is a video clipping from You Tube
Israel informs ‘Palestinian Civilians’ to evacuate 5 Minutes before Israel is going to attack the Hamas terrorist base next door.
What do these ‘Palestinian Civilians’ do? Gather more civilians and stand on the roof as long as ‘Allah wants’.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iu4FyGTZyK4#!
Its clear to even these dimwits that Allah wants them dead. In huge numbers
Retard Hamas “Mothers” sending their retard inbred children to provoke Israeli Soldiers and following them with Cameras. Hope to get their own children thrashed and catching their footage to emotional infuriate Muslim Monkeys around the world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ax-Jk2iJL0k
But of course, Civilized Israelis know better than falling for these cheap tactics.
You’re demanding for the evidence that Hamas is elected . What is your age ? You must be ten . Muslims stop growing after ten . I urge you to read this from BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1654510.stm
You really have no idea how to argue without appealing to group-think do you? I’m an atheist. I’m insulted by you thinking that I am from India as I know several nice people from India, but I’m basically a European mix with no tribal affiliations of any kind.
When I said talk was cheap I referred to there always being civilian casualties. But of course you have your pattern of completely ignoring it when others are asking you back up what you are saying and dropping links to other things instead because you are a coward that redirects instead of actually supporting what they say and people that can’t support what they say and distract are not to be trusted.
I did not ask about the Islamic revolution. I did not ask about terrorist funding. I did not ask about civilians on roofs (though that one could be related if you actually get around to actually responding to what I asked). Let me be clear. There are terrible acts being committed by Hamas and they deserve condemnation. That will not stop me from condemning Israel for being shitty human beings either. Every example you bring up of mean ol’ Hamas people simply do not justify Israel being shitty in return.
“Retard Hamas “Mothers” sending their retard inbred children to provoke Israeli Soldiers and following them with Cameras.”
Well aren’t you just the cutest bigoted shit stain! I had a feeling we would get around to the roots of your emotions at some point.
I actually think that it’s a great strategy actually. If Israel does something shitty on camera, it’s still Israel doing something shitty and shitty things are to be condemned. I think oppressed people should use that tactic all they can because oppressors really only look good to other oppressors (and I can admit that my country does a lot of shitty oppressing as well and that also deserves condemnation). It’s also a good tactic for people to stand on the roofs of their houses since decent human beings actually think that civilian casualties are a bad thing. You can show all the videos of Hamas trying to convince people to do this all you want but I still have no problem believing that many are doing it independently of Hamas. People that choose to be human shields to protect their homes, schools, and hospitals are quite courageous to me. That Hamas might be storing things in some schools or hospitals is bad, but that takes nothing away from the people that don’t support such and want their homes, schools, and hospitals protected. I’ll not pretend that all Palestinians are the same thing like you obviously do.
That should read “I’m not insulted by you thinking that I am from India as I know several nice people from India, but I’m basically a European mix with no tribal affiliations of any kind.”
Bad Brony. Shitty typo.
Your first paragraph is irrelevant to my post. So I choose to ignore it
You’re accusing me for the character demonstrated by you. The fact of the matter is that I sufficed link from your own Hamas Al Aqsa TV. You’re dodging evidence to safeguard your prejudiced. Closing eye in a sunny day doesn’t sublimate sun from the sky. You’re beguiling yourself. Keep lying, keep deceiving. This is what Muhammad taught Muslim under Al Taqiyya scheme.
Your third paragraph demonstrates your perfidy. You asked me to demonstrate some evidence to show civilian control the trajectory of military. Now you’re whining that you’re NOT looking for Islamic revolution, that being an example. In the same paragraph you’re resonating the logical fallacy of ‘’ Ad Nauseam ‘’. Your accusation that Israel is bad is demonstrably false when Hamas spokesperson confessed in his own national TV that using ‘’ civilian’’ as shield is quite effective. The meat of his argument is that Palestinian knows that Israel doesn’t hit civilians & Hamas reckon that this method is quite effective. Two gram of logical thinking disproves your imagination. Also Palestinian coming on roof doesn’t demonstrate courage but humanity of IDF. Why? Because Hamas consider this method quite effective to deflect Israel Air Force attack. I’m NOT ignoring your post. Your imaginations are NOT evidence to me.
You call me bigoted in fourth paragraph to demonstrate the sickness of sick minded Palestinian women. Your accusation of bigot ain’t enough to refute their sickness. Not many women jeopardize their children for some imaginary god in the Sky. Palestinian women do. This requires extreme insanity. Even mammals in animal kingdom put their life of fire to save their children. The sense of morality and motherhood of animal is far more than Palestinian women.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4vFxt5U8Xo
Your notion of bravery is sacrificing life. My notion of bravery is protecting life as demonstrated by a mother cow in one of the above video fighting the lion for her kids.
IDF save the Child of this ungrateful mother. No amount of love is enough to deter there insanity. They are NOT normal. They are bereft of empathy. Buddhist religious leader of Burma is right that you might be full of love and compassion but you cannot sleep next to a mad dog. Even mammals love their kids. There thinking is less evolves than mammals. They are still reptiles who can kill their own children
. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClYwDzrTaEs
You’re lying in the last paragraph of your post. The testimonial of Hamas that Palestinian using their body as human shield is effective to deflect ISRAEL AIR FORCE demonstrate humanity of Israel. You’re drawing a conclusion off the cliff.
You’re harping bravery of Palestinian. Palestinian don’t fight like men, they don’t even fight like ladies. They fight like cowards and pussies. They fight in civilian clothing (a war crime), they fight from civilian buildings (also a war crime), theyuse human shields (yet another war crime).. They kidnap and behead people (war crime). They arm children (war crime). I can’t think of one honorable thing a wartime Arab has done to be honest, not one.
Israel defense force jeopardize their life collecting intelligence report of terrorist & reporting IDF for surgical attack trying to save the life of Palestinian who want Israeli dead anyway. They are saving their enemy with a hope that life of civilian is sacred. Yet Palestinian harbor terrorist and shot rocket in Israel. They get medical, schooling, power from Israel & they want to kill Israel & Jews .
@ Gwen
Of course you don’t want to think my first paragraph is relevant. But when you start making assumptions about what I am you are going to get corrected and your inability to correctly identify what I am is quite relevant to this situation. I am not a Muslim so references to what Muhhamad taught or “…your own Hamas Al Aqsa TV” is quite irrational. I don’t give a fuck about Muhhamad or what he taught and Al Aqsa TV is just not a part of my experience. Every judgment I am making is based on your demonstrated behavior and there is nothing “pre-” about it.
You made a claim about civilian casualties, I asked you to back it up and none of that that stuff you posted was even close to an attempt to do so. No one has any obligation to accept what you say at face value and I’m going to point it out when you redirect from you unsupported claims. As a person that has to try to make me a Muslim fan of media I don’t watch, and as a person that has to dishonestly modify the text of others when quoting your claims of perfidy are meaningless, mine are demonstrated.
>” Your accusation that Israel is bad is demonstrably false when Hamas spokesperson confessed in his own national TV that using ‘’ civilian’’ as shield is quite effective.”
Bad behavior does not excuse more bad behavior. If you want to demonstrate that Israel is not bad you need to address the Israeli actions that people are complaining about, not distract by pointing to something bad that someone else is doing. I will not be accepting bad things done by party B as justification that bad things done by party A are not bad. You would simply not accept it if someone tried to say that rocket attacks by Hamas were not bad because Israel is oppressing Palestinians. It’s a bad argument no matter who is making it.
>”our third paragraph demonstrates your perfidy…”
I observed that you are bigoted. Let me quote that bit again.
“Retard Hamas “Mothers” sending their retard inbred children to provoke Israeli Soldiers and following them with Cameras.”
Anyone willing to characterize children who are all impressionable and don’t get to choose their parents in such a manner is a bigot as far as I am concerned. But of course to get the level of hatred that you have you even need to hate their children.
>”Not many women jeopardize their children for some imaginary god in the Sky…”
Every religion and extreme political group and more can include parents that brainwash their children into such behavior. It’s a sad thing and your way of looking at it is disgusting.
>”Your notion of bravery is sacrificing life. My notion of bravery is protecting life as demonstrated by a mother cow in one of the above video fighting the lion for her kids.”
After your attitude about civilian casualties your words with respect to sacrificed lives mean nothing to me.
>”IDF save the Child of this ungrateful mother.”
While I’m sure some IDF soldiers do try to save lives, I’ll not be distracted from the deaths cause by the IDF.
>”Even mammals love their kids. There thinking is less evolves than mammals. They are still reptiles who can kill their own children”
Definitely a bigot. You can’t simply oppose people, you have to dehumanize them and create illusions for yourself. Every group has good people and terrible people. You are clearly one of the terrible Israelis who has managed to see all of a group of people as a threat to be eradicated. So ironic given Jewish history. But even a sad excuse for humanity like you won’t get me to see Israel in such black and white terms. I feel sorry for you. You are still a nasty bigoted piece of shit but I feel sorry for you.
>”The testimonial of Hamas that Palestinian using their body as human shield is effective to deflect ISRAEL AIR FORCE demonstrate humanity of Israel.
I honestly don’t know if it’s effective or not. On it present course I can easily imagine Israel deciding to commit genocide one day. But it’s got people like me screaming about Israel’s indiscriminate killing and I’m certainly not going to stop for a sadly common and normal yet awful example such as yourself.
>”You’re harping bravery of Palestinian. Palestinian don’t fight like men, they don’t even fight like ladies. They fight like cowards and pussies.”
So gendered insults too. Men and women fight like people and if you take that primitive line of reasoning farther one could say that hiding behind cockpits and bombs is more cowardly still. Keep going please. You are exactly the sort of example that needs to be shown around as the sort of thinking that is informing the politics that is creating the mess.
>”They fight in civilian clothing (a war crime), they fight from civilian buildings (also a war crime), theyuse human shields (yet another war crime). They kidnap and behead people (war crime). They arm children (war crime). I can’t think of one honorable thing a wartime Arab has done to be honest, not one.”
So you are not only equating all Muslims with groups like Hamas, but all Arabs. You just got upgraded from bigot to full on racist. A shining example of political support for Israel.
>”Israel defense force jeopardize their life collecting intelligence report of terrorist & reporting IDF for surgical attack trying to save the life of Palestinian who want Israeli dead anyway. They are saving their enemy with a hope that life of civilian is sacred. Yet Palestinian harbor terrorist and shot rocket in Israel. They get medical, schooling, power from Israel & they want to kill Israel & Jews .”
And none of that removes the indiscriminate killing that has resulted in the deaths of more civilians than the Hamas terrorists have managed. Bad behavior does not justify more bad behavior you racist, bigoted, child-hating, representative of a culture inching towards becoming what they hate.
It should also be pointed out that the Israel is actually being MORE careful about civilian causalities than Hamas that I’d demonstrate next
Mmmmmmmmmright, that would explain why there are so many more civilian casualties being inflicted by Israel, then?
Israeli casualties have been predominantly military, Palestinian casualties have been disproportionately civilian. What does that tell you about who is targeting civilians?
Well-said, Taslima.
It occurs to me – Taslima, I wonder if these posters have any idea how completely off-the-rails savage they sound to anyone who isn’t on their side?
Because I’m not. I don’t think Hamas is right to be lobbing rockets, and I don’t think Israel is right to be invading their prison-camp Bantustan.
And you Israel-defenders are slavering for blood, telling us how non-human your enemies are, and are completely un-self-aware about how it sounds to anyone else, and how grimly and grotesquely ironic that this is who a chunk of the Jewish people have become, dehumanizing their opponents in just the same way they’ve been dehumanized for so long. It’s sickening, and is so, so not helping Israel in any way.
Get that, Gwen Stacy and the other shills here? YOU’RE MAKING IT WORSE FOR ISRAEL. You’re making your beloved country sound like a completely horrific collection of savages, while it behaves in ways that are demonstrably savage.
You’re not helping. I know, now you’re going to come and reply to me about how I love Muslim dogs and Muhammad’s a pedophile and blah blah blah, pretty much making my point for me. But you need to know: you’re not helping Israel by doing it. You’re just shouting from the rooftops that “we’re no better than the terrorists we decry”.
You don’t need Jewish people to deride Islam & Muslim . I urge you to read your own Sira ,Hadith and Quran . They are in war with even peaceful Buddhist . So your defence is all hogwash .
Over the past few days before IDF strikes , Hamas has launched over 2000 rockets into civilian neighborhoods from Gaza. Since over these days not one single Muslim has stepped up to condemn those attacks, my question is rather simple… Exactly how many rockets will Hamas in Gaza have to launch into civilian neighborhoods before Muslims will step up and say, “Okay, enough is enough. Now Israel is justified to respond.”
Obviously the 2000 rocket attacks over the past fews days that have killed 30 innocent Israeli women and children and injured 300 more isn’t enough. How many THOUSAND rocket attacks will it take before Muslims would admit that perhaps Gaza is bringing all this on themselves?
The Palestinian elected a government with a charter of complete destruction of Israel . They are willingly taking risk by defending Hamas by standing on the roof of their home & this technique is effective . Even Hamas & Palestinian know that IDF won’t kill ”em indiscrimately like your terrorist brother of Al Shahbab , ISIS .
Forget terrorist , the Pakistan army invaded Bangladesh & raped 250,000 women because the Muslim cleric in Pakistan declare them as Kafir . You’re harping ethics to IDF . Come on , it is like Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi in a peace conference .
Quoting my own post ” It should also be pointed out that the Israel is actually being MORE careful about civilian causalities than Hamas that I’d demonstrate next . They gather intelligence reports, urges civilian to vacate places where Hamas hide their rocket with next, they also give warning signal by firing rocket in air as warning before demolishing a building & then they only hit building . These efforts poses great disadvantages to ‘em . Yet they are doing it for humanatarian purposes”
Within two weeks after IDF left Palestine , the Palestinians were complaining about the fact that the Israelis had left. Apparently the electrical and water plants started failing because all the Israeli engineers had left and none of the Palestinians knew how to actually operate those plants. So they demanded that the Israelis RETURN to Palestine. You want Israel to give you free electricity , water supply & you’d let your government that is a terrorist organisation to thrust 2000 rocket on Israeli civilian.
Don’t you see shame, hypocrisy in your position ?
It does not matter how many rockets are fired at Israel. That does not justify military action so indiscriminate that it literally does more damage than the terrorists and is de facto terrorism itself.
Israel is slowly becoming the very thing that that the Jewish people once endured. A holocaust to others.
Ms Nasreen :‘’There are two billion Muslims living in the world. The percentage of ‘dangerous Muslim religious extremists’ is not really much. If the percentage was high, we would all have been killed a long time ago’’
Gwen : This argument is so silly . All Germans weren’t evil . Only a few mad Nazi killed more than six million . Also , there is no shortage of video that prove that Palestinian are shamelessly using their women and children as human shield . You have palestinian mother instigating their children to commit suicide for their religious goal to harm Israel . Suicide bombers ain’t scholars of Quran ,Hadith & Sira .Nevertheless they blow themselve in a populated area .
Your assumption that education is enough to alter terrorist into civilize is demonstrably false . Most terrorist are far more educated . The educated Muslim in west riots & harms life and property . Hatred,love and religion are the function of reptilian brain so even an educated person like you defend Hamas terrorist .
Ms Nasreen : Did you ever ask Israelis to come back to Europe and America leaving their land to Palestinians?
You spoke like a true terrorist. Hamas terrorist also avers that Jews should leave Isreal like . Do you think it is okay to forge your Arab brothers to Saudi Arabia their original land . You ignorance about history is also baffling . Your rapist Prophet invaded a Byzantine Colony . Why shall Jew leave their land ? It was a European Colony . Your Prophet killed those jews , raped their women (read Tafsir of Quran 4:24 ) and sold women for profit & banished them from Arabia. The Charter of Hamas is derive from Hadith, Quran and Sunnah .
‘’There are two billion Muslims living in the world. The percentage of ‘dangerous Muslim religious extremists’ is not really much. If the percentage was high, we would all have been killed a long time ago’’
Why did you change Ms. Nasreen’s words?
“Your Prophet killed those jews , raped their women…”
You seem to know absolutely nothing about Ms. Nasreen.
Also that second section you are responding to is completely missing the point of what Ms. Nasreen said. She is pointing out inconsistency by Sam Harris. You have no idea what you are responding to.
She is demonstrating Stockholm Syndrone with her defence to Hamas terrorist . She cannot even lace the boot of Sam Harris much less to argue him . She was lying with her mental dysentery that there is NO proof of human shield . The evidence are recorded in Al Aqsa TV , Palestinian National TV . This is fact . She doesn’t know even the charter of Hamas . She has ONLY demonstrated lies & her logical fallacy.
Answer the fucking question coward. Otherwise I have no use for you. WHY DID YOU CHANGE MS. NASREEN’S WORDS.
Ms Nasreen :. Gazans have rockets, bricks, bottles which they use against their enemies. There is no comparison possible between Hamas and Israel. When Israel kills 1000, Hamas only can manage to kill 20 or so.
Gwen Stacy : Israel invested millions of Dollar in Iron Dome defence system to protect their civilian . Hamas were bragging to transform Palestine into Hong Kong . They are ONLY transforming their civilian into monsters . Your civilians are killed because you fight under the skirt of your women & children as confessed by Hamas Spokesperson in his own national TV. Go ahead , alter your sinsiter method of fighting before harping ethics .
Ms Nasreen : If Muslims followed Koranic advice to kill Jews, they would have killed Jews everywhere, in America, in Europe, in Asia, in Africa. But Muslims and Jews have been living together without any conflict in the other parts of the world but Israel and Palestine. Jews are living in Israel surrounded by Arab Muslims. Except the oppressed Palestinian Muslim extremists, no other Muslims go to kill Jews. And that is more for political reasons than religious reasons.
Gwen : You’re enlisting Darul Harb nation. Jews have been killed all over middle east . Your ignorance about the Charter of Hamas is also baffling . Muslims are in war with Buddhist,Hindu, Sikhs because Quran 9:5 command them to kill disbeliever. Your argument that it is NOT religious reason flies in the face of logic with enough Hadith quotation in their Charter of Hamas encouraging the genocide of Jews in Isreal . You’re bluffing..
Palestinian women are shameless enough to jeopardize the life of their own children . They are less evolve than most mammal in animal kingdom much less human being . You’d find such mentality in reptiles like snake .This backwardness is reason for their miserable condition .
Do you even hear yourself channeling the words, wisdom and the energy of a certain man with a little mustache? That’s the extent of empathy he had against an entire race of people.
Sam Harris is a notorious warmonger who’s let his dislike of Islam make him push for war against Muslims. He’s been doing it since The End of Faith when he supported the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and praised the IDF. I’ve seen him debunked so many times now by so many Leftists that I’m surprised he’s even taken seriously. The guy hates Muslims and has called for them to be bombed, tortured, profiled or nuked at various points in his career. He’s a cross between Ann Coulter and Ayn Rand. A complete joke with nothing of value to say about international relations. I’m sick of atheists falling for every guy with a science degree and a book deal. There are legions of such people. It doesn’t make them experts on politics. Good job exposing this clown.
Nice attempt at “proving Sam is a Mushlum Haterz”.
Here, my thoughts on your criticism of Harris’es position.
“Is Sam Harris sad because Jews population is much less than Muslim population? ”
No. READ. Comprehend. Stop indulging in straw-men fallacy. He stated (CLEARLY) that he maintained sense of proportion while criticism. Jews are 100 times less than Muslims. Obviously there are more cases of Islamic fundamentalism than Jewish fundamentalism. Hence the amount of criticism will never be the same. Only idiots would use it to accuse someone of bias.
Ebola and cancer, both are fatal. But more money is spent on research for cancer cure because it is more common. Likewise, more criticism is expected towards groups who are more numerous and hence more effective and dangerous.
“The percentage of ‘dangerous Muslim religious extremists’ is not really much”
Says the female who was driven out from her country Bangladesh, and then driven out from India where she came for asylum, because of Muslim religious extremists. And yet she thinks they aren’t “too many”.
Here, a reality check. How many Islamic theocracies can you find? How many Buddhist, Christian, Jewish, Hindu theocracies can you find? A “tiny negligible minority” of Muslims are responsible for so many theocracies? And the whole OIC which wants a global anti free speech, blasphemy law passed in UN? Stop kidding.
Forget all that. Look at Palestine.
Hamas was elected by a majority of Palestenians into power. Hamas’es charter states obliteration of Israel as it’s goal. Simple logic proves what majority of Palestenians want and refutes your “tiny minority of extremist” rhetoric.
” When Israel kills 1000, Hamas only can manage to kill 20 or so.”
This is not a sport where you expect some sort of equally equipped opposing teams.
Israel uses iron dome. Hamas doesn’t. That does not mean Hamas is not dangerous. It just means Israel is far more capable of protecting it’s citizen. Fools can keep thinking that it is morally unjust to have superior defense.
“There is no evidence than Hamas uses children as human shield.”
Type “Sami Abu Zuhri” in Google and click on the first video. He is Hamas’es spokesperson who admits in the video that “human shield technique is very effective”. While at it, type “Rocket Arsenal UNRWA” and read what comes.
“How would we know that killing is not the general intent of Israel? We saw how Israel invading and occupying Palestinians’ land, dropping bombs on civilian houses, killing hundreds of children. Anyone could realize that invading, blockading, occupying and killing were Israel’s intentions.”
That is like saying America was not actually after Taliban but wanted to kill Afghans and Pakistanis.
Why doesn’t Hamas come out in the open and stop hiding among civilians? Which military in the world hides among civilians? Except for terrorists.
“Jews would have terrorized the way Palestinians terrorized if Jews were in Palestinians’ situation. If Jews were living in a land for hundreds of years, and suddenly saw that Muslims came from Europe, stole their land and settled there because their holy book asked them to do so— and then occupied more and more land and killed more and more people, — Jews would be doing every bad thing in their desperate situation.”
Ah, the silly “invaded our home” argument.
Arabs did not pop out in Palestine from ground. They invaded it and conquered it. Check history. invasion and conquest was the legitimate way of acquiring territory – and the legitimacy of this method was accepted by British, Ottoman, Arabs – all. So save the rhetoric of “invaded our land and drove us out” for conflicts post UN, and not for Pre UN colonial times.
“I’ve seen him debunked so many times now by so many Leftists that I’m surprised he’s even taken seriously.”
You mean the sly or daft leftists who either can not actually read or can not comprehend or both?
Take this quote from Sam’s book for instance.
“It should be of particular concern to us that the beliefs of Muslims pose a special problem for nuclear deterrence. There is little possibility of our having a cold war with an Islamist regime armed with long-range nuclear weapons. A cold war requires that the parties be mutually deterred by the threat of death. Notions of martyrdom and jihad run roughshod over the logic that allowed the United States and the Soviet Union to pass half a century perched, more or less stably, on the brink of Armageddon. What will we do if an Islamist regime, which grows dewy-eyed at the mere mention of paradise, ever acquires long-range nuclear weaponry? If history is any guide, we will not be sure about where the offending warheads are or what their state of readiness is, and so we will be unable to rely on targeted, conventional weapons to destroy them. In such a situation, the only thing likely to ensure our survival may be a nuclear first strike of our own. Needless to say, this would be an unthinkable crime—as it would kill tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day—but it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe. How would such an unconscionable act of self-defense be perceived by the rest of the Muslim world? It would likely be seen as the first incursion of a genocidal crusade. The horrible irony here is that seeing could make it so: this very perception could plunge us into a state of hot war with any Muslim state that had the capacity to pose a nuclear threat of its own. All of this is perfectly insane, of course”
Now, given the comprehension issues typical in your pseudo leftist, according to them it somehow means Sam wants war.
Nice attempt at “proving Sam is a Mushlum Haterz”.
Here, my thoughts on your criticism of Harris’es position.
“Is Sam Harris sad because Jews population is much less than Muslim population? ”
No. READ. Comprehend. Stop indulging in straw-men fallacy. He stated (CLEARLY) that he maintained sense of proportion while criticism. Jews are 100 times less than Muslims. Obviously there are more cases of Islamic fundamentalism than Jewish fundamentalism. Hence the amount of criticism will never be the same. Only idiots would use it to accuse someone of bias.
Ebola and cancer, both are fatal. But more money is spent on research for cancer cure because it is more common. Likewise, more criticism is expected towards groups who are more numerous and hence more effective and dangerous.
“The percentage of ‘dangerous Muslim religious extremists’ is not really much”
Says the female who was driven out from her country Bangladesh, and then driven out from India where she came for asylum, because of Muslim religious extremists. And yet she thinks they aren’t “too many”.
Here, a reality check. How many Islamic theocracies can you find? How many Buddhist, Christian, Jewish, Hindu theocracies can you find? A “tiny negligible minority” of Muslims are responsible for so many theocracies? And the whole OIC which wants a global anti free speech, blasphemy law passed in UN? Stop kidding.
Forget all that. Look at Palestine.
Hamas was elected by a majority of Palestenians into power. Hamas’es charter states obliteration of Israel as it’s goal. Simple logic proves what majority of Palestenians want and refutes your “tiny minority of extremist” rhetoric.
” When Israel kills 1000, Hamas only can manage to kill 20 or so.”
This is not a sport.
Israel uses iron dome. Hamas doesn’t. That does not mean Hamas is not dangerous. It just means Israel is far more capable of protecting it’s citizen. Fools can keep thinking that it is morally unjust to have superior defense.
“There is no evidence than Hamas uses children as human shield.”
Type “Sami Abu Zuhri” in Google and click on the first video. He is Hamas’es spokesperson who admits in the video that “human shield technique is very effective”. While at it, type “Rocket Arsenal UNRWA” and read what comes.
“How would we know that killing is not the general intent of Israel? We saw how Israel invading and occupying Palestinians’ land, dropping bombs on civilian houses, killing hundreds of children. Anyone could realize that invading, blockading, occupying and killing were Israel’s intentions.”
That is like saying America was not actually after Taliban but wanted to kill Afghans and Pakistanis.
Why doesn’t Hamas come out in the open and stop hiding among civilians? Which military in the world hides among civilians? Except for terrorists.
“Jews would have terrorized the way Palestinians terrorized if Jews were in Palestinians’ situation. If Jews were living in a land for hundreds of years, and suddenly saw that Muslims came from Europe, stole their land and settled there because their holy book asked them to do so— and then occupied more and more land and killed more and more people, — Jews would be doing every bad thing in their desperate situation.”
Ah, the silly “invaded our home” argument.
Arabs did not pop out in Palestine from ground. They invaded it and conquered it. Check history. invasion and conquest was the legitimate way of acquiring territory – and the legitimacy of this method was accepted by British, Ottoman, Arabs – all. So save the rhetoric of “invaded out land and drove us out” for conflicts post UN, and not for Pre UN colonial times.
1. It doesn’t matter what reasons there are for more Muslims, he is talking about proportions. More Muslims, means it is legitimate to talk about their influence more. 2. You don’t understand the term “secular Jew”, look it up. 3. You argue against yourself when you point out that agnostics Muslims say they are Muslim because it is safer. 4. Your paragraph starting with “You must not think…” sounds exactly like things Sam Harris has said. 4. Stop making Sam’s case by saying “if the percentage was high, we would all be killed..” The rest is mostly justification of violence and of those who are not seeking political solutions to the problem.
There is an aspect of your post I want to address — and please don’t take it as a comment on anything ELSE you’ve written — but it’s something that’s often repeated in commentary critical of Israel and Israel-supporting Jews, and it’s wildly inaccurate. Specifically, it’s the whole Jews=Judaism thing. You say that Israelis are actually Europeans who should return the land they’ve stolen from Palestinians and go “back” to Europe. First, what do you even mean? That Israelis are ETHNICALLY European, that the European Continent is their land of origin? Do you think people who live in Europe would agree with that assessment? I grew up in Russia. In Russia, as in all of Europe, Jews are considered to be a distinct ETHNIC group, not a religious one — a group that’s genetically different from “real Russians”. Despite the fact that my ancestors lived in Russia for as many generations as we knew of, I grew up being told I wasn’t Russian; that I was a “foreign element”, or, at best, a half-breed. It doesn’t matter whether you believe in god or not, or what religion you follow. You can be an atheist, Buddhist, Wiccan. Hell, you can be a devout Russian Orthodox, and it still won’t make you Russian. If you are a “Hebrew”, you are always a Hebrew, regardless of what you believe or practice. Hebrews are interlopers. As in foreigners. As in, they aren’t native. This encapsulates the European attitude towards Jews. A Russian Jew isn’t a Russian in the majority’s eyes. A Polish Jew isn’t a Pole. A Spanish Jew isn’t a Spaniard. A German Jew isn’t a German. That’s why the Nazis exterminated Jews on ETHNIC grounds, not religious ones. Or do you really think escaping the gas chamber was as easy as renouncing Judaism? The Nazis exterminated even Christian clergy for being ethnic “Hebrews”. Edith Stein was a Catholic nun. So, to the extent that the majority of a country’s “native” population has an absolute right to determine who does or doesn’t belong, Jews are not considered originally European, at least not by Europeans themselves. So, Israelis can’t go back to Europe. Can’t go back to America either. America should belong to Native Americans. This land is stolen too. Since Israelis aren’t Native American, they don’t belong on Native American land. Then there are Israelis who were expelled from Arab and North African countries. Not sure why THEY should go “back” to Europe or America, but I guess this just illustrates my point that when the push comes to shove, Jews are actually perceived to be an ethnic group, not “really” Arab, Berber, Persian, European, etc. So, could someone please tell me where Jews’ “original” country is, the one where we should all live, so we don’t steal land or resources from any native inhabitants? It’s not Europe, it’s not the Middle East, it’s not North Africa, and it’s not America. So … where? I’m just curious.
Anti Muslim people are calling us Hamas supporters who are criticizing Israel for killing people in Gaza. I am anti religion, anti Islam. But I am not anti Muslim or anti human. I criticized Nazi Germany for killing Jews, I criticize Israel for killing Palestinian Muslims. I criticize Muslim fanatics for torturing Hindus in Bangladesh, and Christians in Pakistan. I stand besides oppressed people. I am not supporting Hamas or any other terrorist organization. I am very much against terrorism, all kinds of terrorism. I respect those Jews who oppose Israel, I respect those Muslims who oppose IS, Boko Haram, Al Shabaab, Al Qaeda, LeT, Taliban etc. Hatred and violence will not take us anywhere. We have to share this world with our fellow humans. Religion is here today, it will be gone with the wind tomorrow. Thousands of religions have already gone extinct. It is insane to kill each other in the name of mythology in the 21st century. What we should do now, is, to work hard in order to make the world a better place.
That’s a very noble sentiment, but it doesn’t answer my questions. Though to be fair, I didn’t expect you to address them. I just wish that you give some thought to the fact that “Jewishness” — at least as seen by “native” residents of various countries — has a very hefty ethnic component; and that telling Jews to go “back” to places where we aren’t considered native is basically the equivalent of reminding us (as many of us have been told explicitly), that we don’t belong anywhere on Earth, except as a minority that’s “tolerated” from time to time, upon varying conditions.
I did not say Jews from Israel should return to Europe. I asked Sam Harris this question as he was saying he was against the creation of Israel, a Jewish state .
“Anti Muslim people are calling us Hamas supporters”
How do you justify such slanders?
This is what you are doing. You have begun with a presumption that anyone who does not oppose Israel is Anti Muslim. Where is the proof for this? You haven’t provided any.
Jeremy Bowen, BBC Middle East editor: “I saw no evidence during my week in Gaza of Israel’s accusation that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields.” The Guardian: “In the past week, the Guardian has seen large numbers of people fleeing different neighbourhoods.. and no evidence that Hamas had compelled them to stay.” The Independent: “Some Gazans have admitted that they were afraid of criticizing Hamas, but none have said they had been forced by the organisation to stay in places of danger and become unwilling human-shields.” Reuters, 2013: “A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields.”
—-Suppose they are all wrong. Hamas uses children as human shields. Israel bombs and children die. In this case two things should be done. Hamas should stop using Human shields, and Israel should stop bombing.
The current conflict is about Hamas firing rockets and using tunnels to launch terrorist attacks on civilians. Those attacks and rocketfire needs to stop. Don’t you agree?
Hamas can end the war at any time by stopping its terrorism. Why don’t they do that?
And yes, when they’re not being fired upon Israel needs to and will stop as well.
Then too, maybe they can sort out some of the deeper issues behind the conflict as well. The Palestinians have had a really raw deal, they have been treated unjustly at times -but shooting rockets at innocent people and resorting to violence isn’t the way to solve things.
You’re cherry picking one of the BBC report. to cement your position. At the same time you don’t use same BBC report that contradicts your position. This is perfidy.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6162494.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7818122.stm
The fact of the truth is that the Al Aqsa TV, the National TV of Hamas, record the confession of Hamas spokesperson bragging about his cowardice of using civilian as human shield. You cannot unsoil a criminal after his confession unless you advocate insanity.
-Absolute nonsense. Hezbollah is not composed of “oppressed Palestinian Muslim extremists”, but of formerly oppressed Lebanese Shia Muslims. Likewise, the Arab-Israeli conflict was not begun by “oppressed Palestinian Muslim extremists”, but by the combined armies of Syria, Jordan, and Egypt.
[I am sure he knows the reasons why Muslims are more in number than Jews. If they are more, does not mean they are powerful. You have money and weapons, you are much more powerful than them.]
Yes. So what is the point you are trying to make? Do we have a moral responsibility to side with the underdogs in a conflict?Conflicts are rarely, if ever between two evenly matched sides. If there is a conflict between two evenly matched sides the conflict would go on for ever.
If a few thugs try to rob a man, not aware that the man is trained in martial arts and gets beaten up do we have a moral responsibility to side with the thugs or to blame the man for learning martial arts?
[If any religion is very important to X, X is not a true atheist. When a person becomes an atheist, he /she denounces his /her religion first, then start denouncing other religions. If your religion is very important to you and you are an atheist, then something is wrong with you.]
Why do you think that an atheist should not favor one religion over another? An atheist may favor one religion over another for purely pragmatic reasons such as realizing that one religion is a greater threat to rationalism, freedom of expression and other secular values.
[There are two billion Muslims living in the world. The percentage of ‘dangerous Muslim religious extremists’ is not really much. If the percentage was high, we all atheists would have been killed a long time ago.]
This is silly really. lets assume that 1% Muslims are dangerous extremists. so 1% of 2 billion makes 20 million dangerous Muslim extremists which is much greater than the total population of Jews . The fact that the percentage of dangerous Muslim extremists is very low doesn’t change the fact that the number of extremist Muslims is large enough to pose a significant threat to any country.
[Fine. I think it is impossible for a true atheist to accept any state which has been created based on religion. Mr. Sam, have you ever protested against the birth of Israel before? You say that you are against the creation of a religion-based state. Did you ever ask Israelis to come back to Europe and America leaving their stolen land to Palestinians?]
Does Israel follow a Jewish constitution? to the best of my knowledge it doesn’t. So to the best of my knowledge the state of Israel is not a Jewish state. It is a state created so that the people of Jewish ancestry can live in peace and prosperity and determine their destiny after centuries of persecution. Unfortunately Sam Harris could not protest against the creation of Israel for the very good reason that Sam Harris was born in 1967 approximately one fifth of a century after the creation of Israel and another one tenth of a century passed by the time he learned to spell Jerusalem correctly. Are you calling for a protest against formation of Israel after more than half a century had passed since its formation? Such an action would inadvertently lead to another Jewish holocaust resulting in the extermination of all Jews. Is that what you want? Do i smell a Jew hater here?
[Is Israel brutal because of the character of her enemies? Wow, this is so funny. Palestinians have no air force, no navy, no army, no cannons, no nukes that Israel have. Israel is the 4th largest military power in the world. Gaza is one of the poor places of earth. Gaza is also called an open air prison. We saw that the brutality of Israel by its air strikes and ground offensives already killed more than a thousand Gazans in the last few days, most of them were civilians. Gazans have home made rockets, bricks, bottles which they use against their enemies. There is no comparison between Hamas and Israel. When Israel kills 1000, Hamas only can manage to kill 20 or so.]
Have you seen a cornered animal fight? It fights with nothing held back simply because it cannot afford to lose the fight. The situation that Israel is in is no different than that of a cornered animal. It cannot afford to be soft. Failure means extermination. Now considering the situation that Israel has been in, the restraint that they have shown is remarkable.
To put things into perspective The United States of America sprayed agent orange over Vietnam because it was losing too many troops in the war. Do a google search to find out the consequences. USA did that even when there was no threat to its existence from Vietnam. Now you can see why it is correct to say that Israel is showing considerable amount of restraint while dealing with Palestine.
Now the question is whether it is possible on the part of Israel to deal in a more Humane manner to minimize civilian causalities. Perhaps it is, but when a country sends its soldiers to war, it is the responsibility of those in command of the army to ensure minimum causalities on their side. Its their responsibility to try to ensure that every soldier returns safely to their family and to ensure that a country has the rights to use any means necessary to ensure the survival of its soldiers (drones etc). The responsibility of ensuring survival of the civilians on the enemy’s side lies with the government that the civilian’s have elected (in this case Hamas). So Israel has the right to use any amount of force that it thinks is necessary
“Except the oppressed Palestinian Muslim extremists, no other Muslims go to kill Jews.”
Palestinian Muslims – and Muslims in general – hate Israel because of Jews, and not Jews because of Israel.
Their whole issue is not that someone conquered Palestine, but JEWS conquered Palestine.
Which is evident with the fact that Muslims do not care about Muslims killing each other over territory dispute.
Their whole issue is not that someone conquered Palestine
Right, when the brits conquered it, they thought everything was peachy keen? Is that what you’re saying?
[I am sure he knows the reasons why Muslims are more in number than Jews. If they are more, does not mean they are powerful. You have money and weapons, you are much more powerful than them.]
Yes. So what is the point you are trying to make? Do we have a moral responsibility to side with the underdogs in a conflict?Conflicts are rarely, if ever between two evenly matched sides. If there is a conflict between two evenly matched sides the conflict would go on for ever.
If a few thugs try to rob a man, not aware that the man is trained in martial arts and gets beaten up do we have a moral responsibility to side with the thugs or to blame the man for learning martial arts?
Why are the moderators approving my comments?
*aren’t
Why did the moderators take so long to approve my posts?
I’m a big fan of yours Taslima, but I think you’ve fundamentally misunderstood what Sam Harris is saying and the distinction he makes between Muslims and the religion of Islam.