This.
Good work, Matt Taylor, Rosetta Project Scientist at the European Space Agency, snatching the spotlight away from the technical accomplishment of your team and making it all about about your clothing choices, and for also doing it with such elan that you simultaneously denigrated all the enthusiastic young women watching the webcast. They may have been cheering at first, but then it sank in that their designated prop role is to be half-naked and posed poutingly on your shirt.
It would be nice if we could just blame Taylor’s crudity on Taylor, but it’s also depressing that no one at the ESA stopped him and said, “Jesus, Matt — we’ve got a continuous live webcast and a series of one-on-one interviews to do. You can’t go on looking like some cheesy stud who strolled out for a beer and a lad mag!”
He did change out of it later. I hope it’s because some higher-up slapped him silly and shamed him for embarrassing the organization.
i may be being naive but im pretty sure that his choice in shirts wasnt the most important thing on his mind
It wasn’t “cute”. It wasn’t “edgy”. It wasn’t an expression of how awesomely laid-back radasses scientists can be, oh look at how special he is with his tattoos and crazy shirts and such. He fucked up the entire experience for an awful lot of people. Those are news clips that should be shown again and again, for decades to come, in schools and inspirational videos and documentaries. And now they will all have him in that fucking shirt, unless (hopefully) he gets edited out entirely.
Gene Kranz and his vests he ain’t.
This was an awesome accomplishment for thousands of people and humanity as a whole. Focussing on one guy who made a jackass of himself does a disservice to all of them. Reprimand him, demand an apology and get on with the amazing science.
For fuck’s sake, Michael. There is zero possibility that he just tossed on that shirt with no thought at all. There is zero possibility that someone knows they are about to make international history and gives absolutely no thought to what they will be wearing today when all of the cameras of the world are on them. And EVEN IF that were the case, how much of a chance is there that what he pulled out of his closet on a whim was that particular shirt?
In fact, your interpretation is even worse. That interpretation would mean that he either has a whole closet full of those shirts because he likes them so much, or that he honestly can’t tell the difference between a picture of a half-naked woman and a solid color. Here’s what the fact that him wearing that shirt at this event means:
1. A really high-up scientist on this project thinks this kind of shirt is cool to own.
2. A really high-up scientist on this project thinks this kind of shirt is cool to wear at an historic event that will be televised internationally.
3. Everyone who saw him on the way in didn’t tell him to change his shirt, thinks this kind of shirt is cool to wear at an historic event that will be televised internationally.
4. His bosses didn’t tell him to change his shirt, meaning they think this kind of shirt is cool to wear at an historic event that will be televised internationally.
5. No one on any tv crews told him to change his shirt, meaning they all think this kind of shirt is cool to wear at an historic event that will be televised internationally.
Do you not see what message that sends to women who want to be in science? What message that sends to girls who want to be in science? What message that sends to men who are already in science? What message that sends to boys who want to be in science?
No, the one guy who was a jackass did a disservice to all of them. He’s the one who brought casual sexism into it, not the people who are rightly asking “what the hell?”
@ aiabx,
You do recognize that Matt Taylor (who knew he would be on camera — with the broadcast going into classrooms, among other places) bears a large part of the responsibility for shifting our focus away from the science by wearing that ill-advised shirt, right?
Well carlie, all you have to do is crop the image down to his head and it’s o.k. for posterity.
It is an amazing achievement and if you want some cool coverage just go here:
Landing
Dr. Rubidium at Skepchick just posted awesome geeky shirts for when you’ve just landed a spacecraft on a comet.
I don’t know whether he’s a good scientist (presumably the minimum bar for anyone to be on this project at all) or a great one, but there really are sartorial choices that mark one out as a less than stellar human being. Now of course he has every right to broadcast his own personal ghastliness – the shirt makes a great red flag, thank you – but it’s not acceptable for him to loudly belittle women while speaking to a world-wide audience on behalf of a hugely important project.
Nice one, Taylor – casually slap a huge proportion of your audience in the face, why don’t you.
David, I’m sure you didn’t mean it that way, but it sounds really condescending for you to be telling me that it’s an amazing achievement. It is precisely because it is such an important achievement that I’m so angry that Matt Taylor decided to make it all about himself and his clothes.
Since Mohawk Guy was such a hit, this might have been a very misguided attempt by NASA to show how hip and edgy its employees are. And, yes, the fact that no one stopped him before going in from of the cameras is deeply concerning.
I missed the shirt as I joined the webcast with about 30 minutes to go. With a very muted sound.
If MT wanted to wear a bright shirt, a Hawaiian shirt would work without the criticism. I suspect MT doesn’t really care.
#11, kosk11348
…by sneaking them into the ESA? Seems a bit of a convoluted plan!
Exactly. One scientist is a sexist asshole? Fine, whatever. But that he made it on tv like that means he’s the tip of the sexist asshole iceberg.
Seriously? He knows he’s not just coming for yet another boring day at work (at an extra-scuzzy bowling alley apparently), and somehow it just doesn’t occur to him that he should leave that ugly shit at home? You’re pretty sure about that? He was both raised by wolves and is a reasonably competent adult human being who’s working on fucking probes landing on a fucking comet?
Well, I’m pretty sure he thought it would make him and his whole project look cool to the people watching the interview he knew was going to give. His obviously-prepared description of “her” (the probe) being “sexy” but not “easy” seems to fall in line with that too. Then again, I’m pretty sure about a lot of shit I probably shouldn’t be pretty sure about.
So who knows which is sure about what? Let a thousand flowers bloom and all that. Asshats work in mysterious ways, and so forth, and so on, etc.
Ok, my bad. It may have been ESA’s misguided attempt to seem edgy. (thanks to anym for the correction)
@docfreeride: I chose the word jackass deliberately, and I stand by it. Tomorrow, I’ll demand an apology for his asinine behaviour. But this comet landing is an amazing scientific achievement by many dedicated scientists, and something we can all be proud of. If your number-one takeaway from today’s events is that one scientist is an misogynist asshole, I think you’ve missed the big picture. All of us, however individually flawed we may be, can collectively do great things.
You can shove that condescension right back where it came from. It’s not just him, it’s the entire group. And again, the reason people are upset is that they know exactly what the big picture is, they know what this means and how important it is, and yet this was allowed to happen and nobody involved thought it was a bad idea.
What pompous bullshit. In the big picture, it wasn’t one scientist, as others have already pointed out, and this project by these dedicated scientists obviously didn’t start (and end) today. So, yeah, this is one of the significant things that I got out of the events today. We’ve got robots landing on comets? Old news. What did we learn from it? Nothing yet — that happens later. Today’s portion of the story was spectacle, but it turns out not to be the spectacle of the thingy touching the frozen rock.
carlie, all I can say is that the second sentence stands completely apart from the first, and is not separated from it by a “but”.
FWIW, I remember seeing plenty of mission control shots of NASA Apollo controllers with some chain smoking like fiends at their desks. I can look at that footage today though and that fact doesn’t detract from their accomplishment:
Plenty of room for big ashtrays and a couple of packs of Tareyton 100s!
HE DIDN’T??!!! OOoooooohhhh… And I was soooo enjoying the reporting on this whole project, I really was. What. An. Asshole. Thoughtless, sexist, vile.
I don’t even… How did I miss this interview? And who the fuck let him on air in that shirt?
(Well, I know how I missed the interview, and I’m glad I did – at least my first impressions of the Rosetta project are of a competent, sober, professional team of scientists handling high-class technology. This guy just spits on all of that, and then stubs out his cigarette butt with the heel of his shit-covered boot right on the newly-polished, shiny new wood floor.)
Notice, he’s wearing a black polo shirt right under the loud sexist shirt. So, accident? I think not.
(And if he’s a part of the group of engineers whose picture I saw back home on Twitter, then it’s a group of men. Men only. The head group that I saw working at least had their token* woman scientist present.)
* By ‘token’ I don’t mean that she’s there by virtue of being a woman, as she was obviously competent and had a lot invested in the project herself, but she was the only woman out of 5 or 6 men.
We’re talking basic professionalism. If there was a woman whose supervisor came in dressed to work like that, in a lot of companies she could file a hostile workplace claim against him. Knowing not to wear clothes that depict half-naked people on it to work is not, shall we say, rocket science.
You… are honestly comparing smoking to a top scientist wearing a shirt with half-naked women on it in the context of the fact that science is an environment that has always been demonstrably and measurably hostile to women? Really?
David
Everybody can chain-smoke. It’s not specifically derogatory to a single group of people, as lung cancer doesn’t really select its victims by virtue of race or gender or age or sexual orientation.
That scientist’s shirt, however, however much you want to just laugh it away, makes women into objects that decorate him – him, the master of the ‘sexy yet not easy’ robot, the one that is the pinnacle of a slew of tech and maths and engineering feats right now. He is saying women are nothing more than the decoration, that it’s about the looks, honey, and never mind the science, don’t worry that pretty little head, see, I can put you on my shirt, and it’s just like you’re with me! He is actively doing harm to a group of people (women) by this action. You cannot equate that with chain-smoking.
Did those scienstists chain-smoking suddenly give you a massive kick to your self-esteem? Well, that shirt definitely did, to me. It made me (still makes me) cringe inside. Because that is not the kind of person I would want to work with, should any reasonably advanced scientific organization want me to work for them. The fact that this is the public face of the ESA right now? Kind of lowers the ESA down my list quite a bit. Now, considering what the ESA has just accomplished – what were you saying about getting more women into high-end science, there?
Also everything that carlie has said so far.
Hey, first of all, those aren’t photos of women but drawings. There also happens to be nothing particularly wrong with the female (or male) body, clothed, unclothed or partly clothed, and if a Euro Space agency scientist wants to make that point clear, probably ain’t no better way than appearing on a newscast wearing that shirt. What’s perverse is getting all bent out of shape by someone’s (non-obscene) clothing choices instead of focusing on his scientific accomplishments.
#20, David Wildford,
@aiabx (#17)
Here’s the thing: Given persistent objectification of women, including in professional contexts and in contexts where great advances for science and humanity are announced and celebrated, we don’t get to have the same “big picture” as men. We are constantly reminded that our primary value lies in being decorative, or titillating, or in suggesting sexualized metaphors for other things not-boring-cool-science-dudes get excited about.
In case you hadn’t heard, some of us have had enough of that. I’d like a chance to get excited about scientific advances without having to wade through crap to do so.
re aiabx @17:
right back atcha: if your number one takeaway from today’s snafu is that one scientist is a misogynist … , then you’ve missed the big picture.
Lots of scientists there, and not any of them pointed out his poor fashion choice? That says misogyny is endemic in the whole assembly of scientists there. THAT is what we are complaining about, not just focusing one that single faux-pas in isolation. The “big picture” is that no one objected to his fashion sense and just disregarded the “artwork” on it.
Even during the heyday of NASA in the 60s, steeped in rampant sexism and misogyny and innumerable barriers for women, I can’t imagine NASA ground controllers, project leaders, or administrators pulling a stunt as juvenile as this. Why not just pull down your pants and moon the world?
David @ #20
Are you really comparing a bunch of men smoking at their desks to a scientist wearing a sexist shirt on national TV during such an important event?! Uh.
@markkernes (#26)
Yeah, and no need to get bent out of shape at the climate it creates for his coworkers and his audience, amirite?
markernes @ #26
Ah, yes, only drawings. Eye roll.
“bent out of shape”
What’s next? You gonna tell us to stop acting so hysterical?
Newsflash: Even scientists can be sexist assholes and it’s not something we should ignore.
Yeah, so a lot more people smoked then. They (sadly) damaged their own health. What they didn’t do, I believe, is go on international TV wearing big badges saying “I Hate N*****s” or “I Hate F*****s”. I think if they had, we’d probably remember it. And it would have been them besmirching the achievement, not the people pointing out the fact that they fucked up.
Students were watching this, school pupils were watching this, people all over the world were watching this – and Taylor was telling them all, loudly and clearly, “hey, science is great – but it’s not for you, you’re just a collection of decorative body parts”.
#26, markkernes
So, if you’re not offended by something, it is quite unreasonable for anyone else to find it disagreeable?
There was a thread about privilege the other day… did you read it, by any chance?
@markernes: what difference does it make, if it is a photo or a drawing? I can show you a gazillion links to sexist and racist drawings, that are highly objectionable. As is the shirt. Even if it wasnt a day where millions of people watch your office live.
It’s quite telling, imo, that markkernes is calling out those speaking out against blatant sexism “perverse”.
No, no it won’t, and thank the nonexistent gods for that. And really people, I get it. Truly, I’m a former MRA recanted, swayed by your logic and your evidence. You’ve got a point on the things society must change with regard to attitudes towards women. But to pretend that this douche’s clothing choices (one’s I’d never make even in my MRA days) are a pimple on a flea compared to the larger monumental scientific and technological issues here is to take delusion where no
manperson has gone before.Phooey. The universe does not revolve around your ideological obsessions and its humorless puritanism. As if there weren’t real issues to raise about the status of women. It would be interesting to ask the female scientist who also appears in this video what she thinks about your denunciation of her colleague.
markkernes @26
docfreeride’s #28 also applies to you.
“Just drawings”? “[N]othing particularly wrong with the female (or male) body, clothed, unclothed or partly clothed”? Except for the rather unrealistic proportions, the suggestive, objectifying poses, all of which get thrown at women all the damn time, because that’s what men find attractive so get to it, ladeez!!! Because that shirt reduces women, once again, to objects subject to the appreciation of straight men, rather than people worthy of respect – by saying ‘nothing wrong with the female […] body, clothed, unclothed or partly clothed’ (a true statement, on the surface), you are casually dismissing the centuries of objectification women have endured to not be seen as objects to satisfy the sexual fancies of men. It’s 20fucking14, and this guy – this guy! – still thinks it’s okay to degrade women by using them as props for his own sick, juvenile joke and haha-moment. Totally cutting edge fashion statement. Like 5000 years ago.
(And really, if there’s ‘nothing wrong with the female (or male) body’ in any state of undress, why didn’t he choose a shirt with suggestively-posed, naked men on it? That might have been a bit avant-garde. Or both? Why just the women?)
carlie, I’m strictly looking at it in the historic sense. Even back then we knew smoking was unhealthy but people did it everywhere and there was a lot of passive smoke all around. And a lot of people died premature and painful deaths as a result. When I watched the film Apollo 13 there was a lot of smoking, and really, it was exaggerated to cheaply highlight the tension, but I still thought the film did a decent job of conveying the reality of that crisis and the professionalism of those at NASA’s Mission Control who dealt with it.
So today, sure, it’s sad to see a shirt distract from a fine accomplishment. It won’t be the legacy.
It’s such a good thing that we have such manly masculine thinky menz around to explain such abstruse concepts in ways our fluffy pink ladybrainz can understand. Thank you so much markkernes.
David
It won’t be the legacy in media or in any obvious sense, but it will be what upholds sexist attitudes currently keeping women out of such scientific endeavours.
That’s a legacy a lot more indelible.
Well, markkernes, nobody made Matt Taylor detract from the occasion, insult the audience and reflect incredibly shittily on his institution and his colleagues – he chose to do that all by his own self. He’s the one who chose not to make this about human achievement, but instead to broadcast the message that he and people like him are downright happy making the working environment unwelcoming to women.
What kind of douchebro do you need to be to even own that shirt in the first place? Much less wear it at a major PR event?
I mean, I’m no fashion plate, but THAT is just unacceptable attire for an event of this magnitude. Though to be honest, it’s unacceptable attire for anything more civilized than a drunken frat party.
This douchebag is NOT a steely-eyed missile man, I can tell you that. Gene Kranz would’ve kicked his ass out of mission control wearing that shit.
And for people complaining that this isn’t a big deal, here’s a little suggestion: shut up and listen to the people who are telling you that it IS a big deal. You might learn something.
is there a recording of his interview in that shirt?
scienceavenger @ #38
Followed quickly by:
Emphasis mine. Uh-huh. Sure. You’ve been swayed. Totally swayed. Suuuure.
And I like that you have to reassure us that you wouldn’t wear such a shirt. “I promise I’m not an MRA anymore! And even when I was, I wasn’t this bad! Promise promise promise!” Doth protest too much … much?
#39, jimharrison
I’d say it would be just as interesting to ask if she felt she could actually voice any opinions about a (possibly superior) male colleague’s attire, without being dismissed (its just a laugh, right? don’t be such a humorless puritan!), risking social exclusion because she’s the lone female in the group (and they’re so hysterical, you know) or even jeopardising her future career because she’d clearly be a troublemaker on top of the other faults we’ve just discussed?
#46, lutzifer:
Exactly 10 minutes in to this video, in fact: http://new.livestream.com/ESA/cometlanding/videos/67854347 (“Rosetta #CometLanding webcast Separation Confirmation Received on Ground”)
I don’t know if it appeared in other interviews, too. The wearer certainly did, though he was dressed a little more soberly later in the day.
(Also, incidentally, it’s been a lot easier to teach people about the negative effects of smoking than the negative effects of casual sexism, because the effects of sexism are far more pervasive and less physically felt by those who propagate it, whereas smoking affects everyone.)
Also, come to think of it, in the US at least, wearing that shirt at work would very easily qualify as sexual harrassment. What kind of government workplace allows employees to wear shirts with half-naked ladies on them?
jimharrison @ 39
Some day I’m going to figure out how to bottle self-awareness and I’m going to make a fucking fortune. Given your response to our complaints about the shirt, what the actual fuck makes you think that woman would feel comfortable saying so if she did have a problem with the shirt? I mean how fucking sympathetic to her concerns do you think Obnoxious Sexist Shirt Guy would be given that he fucking looked in his closet at every shirt he owns and picked THAT one to wear on this particular day? Fucking moron.
The legacy is that there are an awful lot of young women and girls who watched that today, who flinched and went “um, ew”, and who just got nudged a little further away from their dream of being a rocket scientist. They’re already swimming against the current; a tiny push back in the other direction can have a big effect.
It’s interesting that I see a lot of male-coded ‘nyms saying ‘Oh, haha, that shirt is perfectly fine and doesn’t take away from the amazing science of the moment’ and a lot of female- and neutral-coded ‘nyms arguing ‘Actually, that shirt is an atrocity and here’s why’. (And thanks to the male-coded ‘nyms who understand that yes, it is an atrocity.)
jimharrison@39: I bet you a million-gajillion dollars that she doesn’t like it. But I bet you the same sum that she will never say so where her employers can hear it, for fear it will mean the end of her career.
Shit fucking damn, how do all of you dudes not get it? Matt Taylor is wearing a shirt that screams “YOU DON’T NEED TO DO SCIENCE, GIRLIE. JUST GIMME A BLOWJOB LATER.”
An excellent way to discourage half the population from entering science. Think of all the brainpower we’re losing because of shit like this. Hooray, we landed on a comet! Maybe we could have done it in 1994 if we hadn’t lost out on some genius women who might otherwise have been rocket scientists.
markkernes, #26
scienceavenger, #38
You idiots, it isn’t the actual fucking landing on a comet this guy has ruined. It’s the human element in science, a field which already has sexism issues, that he has taken a shit on.
Appearing on world television like that has done a huge disservice to the people in the scientific community who are trying to get rid of sexism. It’s like a surgeon was performing a revolutionary procedure which was being televised and he appears on camera wearing something objectifying women. It’s unprofessional, offensive, and fucking off-putting to people passionate about space and science. That shirt would fly at the premiere of some Fast and Furious movie, not at an amazing scientific feat.
I did some googling.
Matt Taylor is usually pictured in a golf-shirt or t-shirt.
Yesterday, over a black golf-shirt, he wore a hibiscus flower “Hawaiian” shirt.
Today he wore this number.
“how do all of you dudes not get it? Matt Taylor is wearing a shirt that screams “YOU DON’T NEED TO DO SCIENCE, GIRLIE. JUST GIMME A BLOWJOB LATER.””
> Probably because that’s your personal interpretation of his shirt, and it’s not shared by everyone else. You don’t get to decide what other people’s clothes mean.
Wonder what the comments would be if his shirt had featured half-naked men?
Oops–just realized that could be read multiple ways. I don’t mean it as “what about the menz?”, I’m just curious if the people defending the shirt would say the same thing about it if it were men.
sw, try harder. Your trolling is showing.
You too, Doug.
Doug, #59
Easy. I’ll give you mine now:
It would be unprofessional and offensive. It would also not be damaging to the advancement of science (since there is literally no marginalization of men in science).
Jesus, this has to be the highest percentage of MRA type scumbags to appear in the shortest amount of time on any of PZ’s posts.
Hell, why not issue a copy of that shirt to every professional who is going to speak at a “career day” at local schools? And to all politicians for their acceptance and stump speeches? And to all college admissions and recruitment staff? No problem, rite?
Doug, #60
Shit. Too late. I had replied already. Sorry, disregard my previous post.
#53 Carlie – that is perfectly stated.
This guy’s shirt choice could have been the LAST STRAW for who knows how many young women who were thinking of pursuing a career in science or engineering. That last little push that made them say “You know what? Fuck that. I don’t need that bullshit in my daily workaday life.”
Guys, don’t let your behavior be someone’s last straw.
sw @ 58: Go fuck yourself, you deliberately obtuse piece of shit. This thread is full of people who are explaining exactly what the effect of that shirt is for a great many young women and girls who might like to have a career in science but see this sort of thing and decide they have better things to do with their lives than interact with sexist asshats on the job.
You’re a goddam douchebag with your head so far up your ass your every word stinks like nuclear farts. How’s that for me having a personal interpretation?
Or for that matter, don’t let your behavior be anyone’s First Straw, either. Or any straw in between.
Lucky for us, we gots plenty of dudebros here to splain to us all just how wrong we are to point out Douchy McDouchiness’ choice of attire.
Relax ladies, would you like me to fetch you a fainting couch whilst the menz mansplain things for ya.
(Do I need a snark tag here?)
And for the record, I hope this becomes the most memorable image of the day:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2QiDZHIEAABy43.jpg:large
He wore that to *work*?!
carlie, a shirt is one thing and I’m not discounting the unfortunate symbolism of it – but I do think it’s more on the molehill rather than the mountain scale when it comes to the overall impact on women in the sciences. What’s really needed is a transformation of culture that currently sees women as primarily childbearers and childcarers, because IMO that’s the single biggest barrier to women in general entering not only the sciences but any profession. That many, many women have done well in the sciences and elsewhere shows that we should look at our cultural norms with an eye to how they treat women unfairly as a class and change them, including making raising children something that isn’t placed primarily on the shoulders of women. That will also require a change in how we see work in not only women’s but men’s lives as well. For starters, this would be nice to see in more countries:
The Swedish approach to fairness
XKCDs following of this will always be my most memorable ‘image’ of the day.
http://xkcd1446.org/ Hit the back arrow above the image, and prepare to laugh.
David
That shirt? Is part of the culture that needs to be transformed. It is not a molehill. It may not be the mountain, but it’s a pretty large damn rock on the mountain. Because for women it’s not just the childbearing, but the objectification for men’s sexual gratification – as symbolized by this shirt. Women don’t suffer so much in science because men see them as incubators, but because men see fit to dismiss their (possible and potential) contributions in favour of their appearance (and other traditional, submissive roles of women). Which is exactly what this shirt does – it dismisses women’s intelligence in favour of their appearance. That is one huge cultural norm you want to be changing, by not wearing a shirt like this, if you want to welcome women into the sciences.
Because women-as-child-bearers? They kind of get the shit once they’re already in the game, so they might havea chance at floundering against the tide. This kind of public face? Keeps women out before they even get into the game – a far worse effect, in my most humblest of womanly opinions.
The end of your comment, there, sounds a lot like ‘what about the menz??’. May I remind you that the point of this shirt is to show how unwelcoming men scientists can be to women in the sciences, not how little paternal leave fathers get while working in the sciences?
Before I ban someone, I usually look up their whole commenting record to see if the recent behavior is anomalous or indicative. Some people are babbling here like obtuse wobblin’ testicles on stilts, and I can pretty much guarantee that your behavior here won’t lean me towards clemency on future potential offenses.
Maybe this is a purposeful jab at Gamergate? Those images seem very video gamefish.
Also, he’s wearing another shirt underneath it. He’s prepared to maybe have to remove this shirt if someone objects.
No way was this a mistake or a guy who just thought it was a cool shirt.
“gameish’…lol
Because, David, how dare we point at something that is a symptom of the way women are treated. It’s much more important to *mumblemumblemumble* and that will fix all the problems we wimmins have.
The US culture doesn’t see women as primarily childbearers and childcares… at least not at first. Over here, we’re seen as objects for sex first, and those other things second. Here, my primary cultural importance is to look sexy for men. So says tv, movies, magazines, and even many men…
So you can shut up. That shirt is goddamn repulsive and makes me damn glad I’m not in that field.
I think his shirt means if you don’t have great tits, you can’t work in science.
liz321
A purposeful jab at GamerGate? Please. He’s far more likely to be an avid supporter of GamerGate. On the ‘ethics in journalism’ side.
rq…that’s what I mean.
Nope, like a lot of your tone/concern trolling comments, it ignores the problem out of “delicacy” and deflection.
If you have had sexual harassment training, and actually remember it, there is no doubt that such behavior by MT IS the problem. That behavior is directly antagonistic toward women, and borderline, if not over the line (my opinion) form of harassment.
In a perfectly fair, egalitarian world I think the shirt would probably be in bad taste, but it wouldn’t be quite as frustratingly offensive as it is in our world. The shirt is a problem because it’s a hallmark of the objectification of women in general and the problems women face in the chilly environments that are STEM careers for them in particular. I don’t think it’s a good shirt to wear in general, and it really distracts from what would otherwise be a triumphant accomplishment.
“it’s one thing”
“it’s a molehill”
So how many “one things” and “molehills” do we need until you guys deem it a fuckin mountain?
Remember that really awful speach by the CEO of Microsoft? That “one thing” – that “molehill” – is part of the same fucking mountain.
#GamerGate is part of of that same fucking mountain.
Little molehills DO add up, and quite quickly, just like the women here have been saying over and over and ovr again in this thread alone. Just because YOU see “one little thing” and “one little molehill” doesn’t mean that the mountain isn’t there, looming right fucking behind you.
sw @ 58
I get to decide what they mean to me, fuckwit.
David Wilford @ 71
a) That’s not for you to say. It’s for the women affected by these attitudes.
b) Lots of molehills stacked on top of each other makes a mountain.
Again, nobody gives a rat’s ass about your opinion of why people who aren’t you are avoiding the sciences. What matters is the opinions of the people who are avoiding the sciences. They cite concerns over job security if they want to have kids and stuff like that but they also overwhelmingly cite stuff like this shirt and the general attitude about women that it takes to make a guy think that’s an OK article of clothing to wear to work.
Would you include in this unfair treatment of women the abject failure of so many men to FUCKING LISTEN TO WOMEN when they tell you why they’re staying out of these fields?
This reminded me of something from many years ago, when I was a teenager, working in retail. A store opened in the mall that sold TV and movie merchandise. One of the things I bought was a Little Rascals tie picturing Buckwheat. The first time I wore it at work, my boss told to change it. I changed it but (at the time) didn’t really understand the problem. I wasn’t racist, I had always had friends of a variety of nationalities, I liked Buckwheat. The thing I wasn’t getting was that it wasn’t about me. I had purchased something that would be offensive to some of our customers, and my ignorance didn’t change that.
Growing up (white) when I did meant that there was a lot of racism that had been normalized to the point where I didn’t see it. I was aware of racism but I still don’t understand how I missed the racism in Little Rascals; maybe it just got to me at too early an age. This is why it’s so important to listen to the people who are affected by it. I find it hard to believe that Matt Taylor didn’t know the message that would be sent by that shirt but I guess it’s possible. The thing that saddens me the most is that our current culture is such that nobody else thought of it and told him to take it off.
I wanted to show my 3-year-old daughter (who has met Chris Hadfield and thinks he’s awesome) about this amazing feat and now I’m going to have to pre-watch anything I find to make sure that shirt isn’t in it. (We have already started talking to her about the “ism”s but I don’t want that talk to tarnish this achievement). I am prepared just in case though: “Daddy, why aren’t those women wearing any clothes?” Me: “Because that man is a sexist jerk who doesn’t have enough respect for women.” I used to work with children and I guarantee a lot of them pick up on such things. Don’t even get me started on the sexist actions I’ve witnessed (boys -> boys, girls -> girls, boys girls) that are a direct result of McDonald’s Happy Meal toy gender prejudice.
P.S. Super proud moment from this summer: old religious guy on the train asked my daughter “Do you know who makes the clouds?” Her answer: “evaporation.” He had been trying to use her as an example of how kids aren’t satisfied when you tell them God did it, and they always follow up with “why?” or “how?” I was about to say that it’s because goddiddit is a tremendously unsatisfying answer, but his wife gave him a sharp elbow in the ribs.
P.P.S. Old religious guy also brought up Dawkins and his incredibly offensive (paraphrase) “It would be immoral to carry a fetus with Down’s Syndrome to term.” I really think it’s important to speak out about these things publicly (sexist shirts and half of what Dawkins says) so that society doesn’t think we (scientists, atheists, men, etc.) all think like that.
Looking over his twitter feed. He says this was his “birthday shirt” on October 9th. It was made by @EternalArtEssex
Still trying to figure out more basic ways to explain it:
The entry fee for being a rocket scientist shouldn’t be looking at a drawing of a woman who looks like you, but is wearing a leather dominatrix outfit, on the chest of the guy you’re working for. Those two things are not connected. You should not have to put up with that as the price for being a professional in that field.
(and I’m not even going near the subjects of what it’s like for a gay guy, or a lesbian, or a trans person, to have to work with that kind of display of macho cis male heteronormativity, because I’m entirely clueless on that subject, but not clueless enough not to know it’s probably some kind of issue there too)
Practical advice for all the lads just askin’ the questions*:
If you wouldn’t wear a particular thing to, say, go and visit your grandma, you shouldn’t wear it to work – much less on global TV to discuss a monumental scientific and technological achievement – even if you personally don’t think it’s offensive. For most people, choosing clothes for the day includes a base-level appropriateness check – if yours doesn’t, please set a reminder to activate your empathy subroutines and run a quick sim (hell, SpaceBro up there should’ve done that while he was buying that stupid thing on douchebro threads dot com**).
And, hey, after all that, if you would still wear a tasteless Hawaiian half-naked comic babe shirt to visit your grandma, well, you’re a clueless little fuckstick aren’t you?
Finally: you don’t need to be an elderly lady to find that particular shirt a crass, douchey waste of space. I’ve listened to metal my entire life and I’ve seen far more tasteful album art (except from The Scorpions, of whom I am not a fan because they suck, whose LP covers managed to repeatedly out-creep this shirt (GAYOR***)).
_________________________________________________________________________________
*Read: too obtuse to be able to figure out precisely why this shirt is pissing people off.
**Enter the code “TRILBYS4LIFE” to receive free shipping!
***Google At Your Own Risk
This wouldn’t be had either…
The problem, as you well know, is not that there is anything wrong with bodies in and of themselves, you dishonest little shit.
* correction in section about Happy Meals, the last one was supposed to be boys to/from girls but triangle brackets messed up. Essentially, they were all gender policing each other.
“It’s just a shirt.”
Sure, and Rosa Parks got all bent out of shape over “just a seat on a bus.” And wasn’t it sad how some people, rather than marvel over the engineering feat that allows fresh drinking water to be available on demand, complained that they couldn’t use the same water fountain as others?
And atheists should never complain about crucifixes on public property, or the Ten Commandments in courthouses, or “In God We Trust” on currency. Just words, people!
Carlie @ 61, I’m sorry if I gave the impression I was trolling. I think the shirt is offensive in and of itself, and beyond that, the decision to wear it at this event was in poor taste at best and actively misogynist at worst. I lean towards the latter–no one who owns a shirt like that is clueless as to the meaning of it. (Though, like some people in this thread, they might pretend that it has no meaning to try to discredit feminists.)
I just brought up the “half-naked men” shirt because the same people who shrug off this guy’s shirt would be outraged if it were men, because that would be disrespectful.
I also still can’t get over the fact that he wore it to work. I realize dress codes are more lenient these days, but NASA really would kick him out of the building for wearing that. There may be some places where such a shirt would be acceptable attire (I’d rather not patronize them myself), but I don’t think any of them involve landing space probes on comets.
liz321 @80
Okay. :) *fewf* Sorry for misreading you!
Un-fucking-believable… Whatever good might have been done through this mission (engineering accomplishments, technology advancements, scientific knowledge, etc.) was at least partially negated by the casual misogyny on display in this most hideous shirt.
Just imagine the message this kind of thing sends to young people – that older white men should do the thinking, and that women should just be scantily-clad eye-candy for the men.
All this talk of the sexism in science reminds of the scientist who transitioned from female to male and the fellow scientist who remarked, “Of course, he’s much more brilliant than his sister,” not realizing that they were the same person. But there’s no problem here, is there? Just move along, nothing to see.
I have no idea how anyone could possibly argue that this dingus wore that shirt by accident. The guy knew that today was going to have a lot of media attention, and when you know when the media is watching you, your appearance and attire is going to be something that must be on your mind when you are getting ready for the day. So, this guy most likely consciously chose that shirt on purpose to wear. And that’s ignoring that the shirt probably didn’t get into his wardrobe on accident in the first place. So yeah….
I’ve trained people in how to interview with the media, and one of the first rules is dress conservatively, unless your interview is about something risqué. I just can’t believe that the ESA didn’t have a PR pro vet Taylor before he went on air.
Rachel @98,
Exactly, nicely put. This shirt slipped past several lines of defense. The first being when it initially ended up hanging up in his closet rather than ending up in the trash; second, when it ended up on his person; third, when nobody else (family, friends, co-workers) intervened; and fourth, when the television folks decided to put this misogynistic attire on the air.
Those insisting this was some kind of accident are, perhaps inadvertently, supporting the culture of misogyny and the oppression of women in STEM.
@aiabx #3: Actually, it’s not about the science, it’s about ethics in games journalism.
This once again goes to show just how incredibly stupid some incredibly smart people can be.
That shirt is completely inappropriate for any workplace.
If someone wore that to my office, they’d be going home to get a change of clothes immediately.
How this man was permitted to wear such a shirt while AT WORK, while ON TV, is astounding.
Phooey. Fools. Puritan schoolmarms. These are mere drawings of women and also too plus they’re not even totally naked drawings. It’s not like they’re three-dimensional holographic animated movie flicks of like hot teen chicks with no clothes on at all but big tits and like maybe playing with toys in her heh heh butt or anything like that on the guy’s birthday shirt. DUMBASS THEY ARE JUST DRAWINGS QWITH NO NIPPLES EVEN. There is nothing wrong with naked female big-titted bodies and I’m sick and tired of you anti-sex humorless feminazi SJW prudes saying that all sex is rape. There is even less wrong with drawings of photographs of not even quite naked female bodies on a shirt. So stop trying to have all men herded into concentration camps and killed by castration-induced exsanguination, that’s TRUE sexism which is misandry because you broads have it easy. But you won’t let me fuck you!!!!!!!!!1!! So shut up!!!1!!!!!1
But seriously.
it’s a really fucking ugly shirt to boot.
Well, it certainly won’t be the memorable image for me. Personally that title will go to pictures of/from the Philae probe. I don’t believe one man’s inappropriate choice of clothing should/will achieve preeminence on a day in which yet another milestone in space exploration has been surpassed .
I think claiming that this will always be the most memorable image and that young women ” may have been cheering at first, but then it sank in that their designated prop role is to be half-naked and posed poutingly on your shirt.” is a bit presumptuous/exaggerative.
corvidd #105
Thank you for sharing.
Have a nice day.
@corvidd (#105),
It sounds like you are saying your memory is normative. Please consider the implications of that in terms of what you seem to be saying about people who will remember this event differently.
@100 We are Plethora
Yep, and that’s was focused in the fact that Matt Taylor knew that there was media attention. Even if there wasn’t, there’s no excuse for wearing that shirt, or shirts like it, to work.
I’m trying to imagine the reaction HR here would have if anyone showed up wearing that particular shirt. I’m pretty sure none of the dudebro mansplaining would fly, though.
Doug – I’m sorry, I get what you were going for.
There also happens to be nothing particularly wrong with taking a shit, but most people wouldn’t do so on international tv.
You realize that some of the people making these comments are women scientists, yes? And that, possibly, maybe a little, that they have a background set of knowledge of what it’s like being a woman making their way up through the ranks?
@105 corvidd
If this was just “one man’s inappropriate choice of clothing” as you put it, then his shirt wouldn’t have even made it to TV. His coworkers would have made him change before the cameras turned on.
Nothing wrong with the shirt. Everyrhing wrong with the absurd moralist tone of the all thread.
Whoops, fixed.
@112 groo
Shut the fuck up.
groo, #112
I know, dude. First they tell us we can’t have hot womenz in our vidya games and now they want them off our clothing too? Is nothing sacred?
What Rachel said, except afterwards fuck off too.
groo, The Ultimate Arbiter of All Things, sez
Oh, well. If you say so. I’ll just grab everyone’s coats then, shall I? I’m gonna stop for ice cream on the way home: anyone wanna join me?
What morality are you talking about? MRA/PUA morality?
Aw, groo. Do you think that we’re prudes? That we’re objecting because we think women shouldn’t ever be allowed to look sexy? You think it’s a problem of slut-shaming morality?
Well, bless your heart. Maybe someday you’ll get that clue you need.
groo #112
Bless your heart.
Why can these male whiners not see that by wearing that shirt on television coverage going out live to half the world Matt Taylor actually diminished the very considerable scientific achievement?
I thought science was about team work, not about “look at me I’m an attention-seeking prat.”
Thank goodness that if I ever have the misfortune to see this man again I’ll miss what he’s saying because I’ll be mentally pasting this picture across his image.
https://twitter.com/monaeltahawy/status/514678155102400512
dammit
Nothing wrong with the shirt? Fuck me. Misogyny aside, that shirt is butt ugly as fuck in the sense of an ogre’s butt. Or maybe the butthole of Azathoth kind of ugly. But I guess there’s no accounting for taste, or, it seems, values.
And Groo is the first casualty of this thread. He’s been around for a while and seems to specialize in a kind of brutish insensitivity, so no loss.
Yes, because expecting scientists to not be raging misogynist asshats is just absurd. Lets all ignore that this person is going to be all over every newscast in the world giving the clear message that science is just like a frat party, so anyone with boobs need not apply.
Sorry. I missed an entire quarter of geometry and had to devise my own ways of solving the problems. My male teacher accused me of cheating, told me I didn’t need to know math anyway because girl, and gave me a C. It was the last math class I ever took. :(
You know, it occurs to me that maybe Monsieur Taylor wore that shirt because being an instrumental part of a mission that involves LANDING ON A FUCKING COMET HOW COOL IS THAT he felt that he was now a rock star. And rock stars get babes. And he wore that shirt to show that he is down to sexy-sex-sex said babes so babes please drop him an email and let him know you’re in line to get some Taylor lovin’.
Or, maybe he’s just a completely clueless ass.
Tethys #124
That sucks. :-( Sorry to hear it. The last math class I took was in 3rd year. Eigenvalues and eigenvectors. I started bleeding out of my ears and failed the course. And the damnable thing of it all is that who knows, you might’ve been good at it.
I think that he wore the shirt deliberately.
It was not an accident nor ignorance.
If it’d been a female scientist doing TV interviews on the big day, wearing a shirt covered with shriveled cartoon penises, I bet the ‘it’s just one little shirt’ guys would be singing a slightly different tune.
Jrfdeux
Um, considering that I was forced to invent geometry to get correct answers, that I was good at math should have been pretty fucking self-evident, but because I wasn’t a football player hoping for a scholarship or empenised he TOLD me I didn’t need to learn math. Years later when I was inventing calculus, my male engineering friend took pity and taught me sine and co-sine.
I think the fact that he began his remarks with that “she’s sexy, but not easy” crap removes any doubt about his sexism. The fact that he chose to say that, along with his choice in shirt (on a day where he certainly knew pictures/video would be recorded), pretty much screams “hostile workplace”. I would not want to be the only woman working on that team.
Thank you, comfychair, for that image.
*barfs*
Dr. Dudebro is the Project Scientist for Rosetta. The Project Manager or someone higher up should have had a word with him, but probably didn’t because they saw nothing wrong with the shirt.
As a high school math/science phenomenon, who didn’t go into either field because she couldn’t face the endemic sexism, I’d like to drop some anecdata here: this kind of shit is EXACTLY why I’m not a scientist or a mathematician today. Its called ‘hostile work environment’, and I would like to invite those who don’t recognize that to a little pool party I’m organizing for you on Charon. Definitely wear that shirt, because those pools of liquid gas get a little chilly. Don’t worry about bringing oxygen, you won’t need it…for long.
Carlie, and so many others, you’re awesome and I love you.
Its always ‘one little thing’, isn’t it?
It’s one little thing when I go to tech conferences with the products advertised by half naked women.
It’s one little thing when a guy at a meeting thanks me for making the coffee and not the presentation I just gave.
It’s one little thing when I get hacked off and someone makes a PMS joke.
It’s one little thing when my coworkers make comments about what female colleagues wear.
It’s one little thing when the guys hang nudie calendars on their desk partitions.
It’s one little thing when guys in meetings assume I’m the secretary, and the security expert is the graduate I’m mentoring.
It’s always one little thing, and then another little thing, and another and another. All those little reminders that you don’t really belong here, that you don’t really count. You sit there and think “Do I love what I do enough to keep putting up with this?”, and maybe today you do – but for five years, ten?
But what can you do?
It’s only one little thing, can’t you take a joke?
Tethys:
I SO could’ve used your help in 3rd year math. Hell, 1st and 2nd too, if you were building calculus from first principles. Total all around suckage, and I’m sorry women like yourself and CaitieCat were forced away from math/science because of the ubiquitous menz. :-(
jimharison @39 sez:
translation:
“Dear Muslima….”
really?
name the last time you saw a scientific achievement of similar magnitude where they interviewed the lead scientist, and they were wearing such a trashy shirt.
well?
because me… I can’t think of a single fucking example of that. not one.
your logic, it fails you. suggest you trade it in for a replacement.
comfychair
…
I don’t know whether to laugh or vomit at that image.
Probably both.
:D
And the other thing is, he’s wearing it OVER a black polo. Nobody does that. Nobody wears a Hawaiian shirt over a polo. That seems to indicate that the polo was the standard required gear, and he decided to throw the girlie shirt on over that for the interview, which makes it an even more deliberate choice.
agreed. the only issue is what message were they really trying to send, in their mind.
it’s pretty clear the message it sent to most of the world.
I find myself wondering if apologists for this goofball would be as jazzed about the spokesman of a science agency wearing This number (completely worksafe, if embarrassing as all get out) to the conference.
His chosen shirt is at least as embarrassing, with an added layer of creepy sexist PUA tone. This is why Matt Taylor should have been forced to change, if nothing else (and really, it’s not nothing else). It’s tacky and tasteless and projects an air not of cavalier rad-ness, but of being gross and not knowing the basics of fashion, grooming, or how to behave in public. It’s the shirt of someone who refuses to brush his teeth and bathes in Axe body spray. It’s someone who speaks too loudly on their cell phone in public places about their bathroom habits.
It’s not a good look.
Malala Yousafzai said that she was grateful to her father for not clipping her wings.
I look at this asshole and I see the scissor calluses.
carlie @ 139:
can’t argue with that. might be different if for some reason it just happened to be the only clean shirt he had, unlikely as that is, but it is indeed plastered on top of what looks like a perfectly fine shirt for an interview.
though really, if it were me, I tend to get dressed up for such interviews, even when it’s just about a shark sighting or something like that. most of my profs taught that projecting an image of professionalism when being interviewed about science, or even making a presentation of your work in public, is quite important. They took that shit seriously, AND personally. As in, if you didn’t, dress professionally, you’d get some rather angry phone calls about it from them.
GOKU!
*hides head in geek shame*
Karpad
If he’d been wearing the Dragonball shirt, I don’t think anyone would even have commented, except assorted geek complaints that it should have been Goku, or should have been a Star Trek shirt instead or the like, and as Ichthyic notes colleagues might have said “Hey, what’s with the loud Hawaiian shirt? This is the big day.” In fact, I think that if it had been a Dragonball shirt, that’s exactly the reaction he would have gotten, and it’s pretty telling that the shirt he actually wore didn’t get such a response from his co workers.
LOL
perfect.
Wow, I googled “Matt Taylor shirt” and he owns and wears quite a few of those nasty sexist numbers. It’s totally his thing. He’s the cool guy with the rad shirts and hip tattoos. Selection of the shirt was deliberate and entirely normal for him. Blech.
I’m a graduate student in a science field and when I saw this I expressed my disappointment to my husband, who is usually amenable to my feminist ramblings. He asked what the big deal was. I countered that it is a reminder that I, no matter what I accomplish as a scientist, will always be nothing more than a pair of tits. And he still didn’t get it…
“Oh drop the indignation, boys, it’s just one woman wearing one shirt with cartoon penises on it. What’s the big deal? She should be able to wear anything she wants, it doesn’t have to mean anything. But so what if it does mean something – maybe she just likes small penises, lots of women do, you know – you should take it as a compliment.”
CBS news just did their prime time story on it (all 2 minutes or so); they featured some comments by the same guy, but in that clip he was wearing the black polo with a zip-up hoodie jacket over it instead of the Hawaiian shirt.
Denverly #147
When I googled ‘matt taylor shirt’, I saw only this one.
Where are the other nasty, sexist ones?
So on that hand good on them for not using that clip, and on the other that kind of indicates that they thought it was a big enough deal to refuse to show him in that shirt, right?
nelliebly #134
I’ve been a woman in tech for three years. Today I thought the jokes might have been the last straw, but I guess I have a few more straws left.
And it was all exactly the same kind of objectifying shit as this guy’s shirt. And that’s why the culture that promotes misogyny in STEM (or any workplace, really) is a problem.
One way to look at it is that it has to be a big deal now in order to not be a big deal later. Stick with me for a minute. It is getting so soundly denounced, from so many corners, that hopefully nobody will make this mistake again. If there had been zero outcry, then he would have thought it was ok. Other people watching would have thought it was ok. We might have seen the same thing again, and again, and more often, and pretty soon every country’s mission control looks like Animal House. The only way to keep it from being a thing that keeps on happening and being an impediment is to loudly denounce it now. That’s how societal norms work.
Well, that would have been epic if one of the Apollo Lunar astronauts had done that.
I have a t-shirt with a picture of a drawing of a smiling, waving stick figure and the words “I live in my own little world, but it’s okay, they know me here!” and that would have made him look more professional.
I think if he’d worn this shirt to “Take your daughter to work day” he’d have been slapped down hard and possibly fired. What the free-shirt-imagery extremists may be missing is that probing a comet is an important event for kids and teens as well as adults. Office walls and office clothes are not the place for fetish art. Many types of “aesthetic jollies” aren’t right for work.
If you sent a closeup of some of that shirt art to your friends, would you mark it SFW?
If he’s worn these to the office before and the HR department hasn’t given him a warning, they aren’t maintaining a professional work environment. The black leather lace-up outfits don’t belong on office coffee cups or calendars either.
Is anyone in touch with current guidelines for what patterns do and don’t look good on television? Way back when, certain patterns like thin stripes would “dither” on old TV screens and the person who advised you about what to wear on TV would give some tips. But maybe screen tech today is substantially different?
Doesn’t matter. If on woman finds it makes her uncomfortable, it is harassment in the workplace. The victims feelings count, not what YOU think, which is irrelevant to harassment.
Understand that harassers, those who are harassed in ANY form make the decision on what is or isn’t harassment, not you. If you can’t live with that, I suggest strongly you keep your opinions where they belong, in the dumpster.
Otherwise, shut the fuck up and listen to the victims, and stop your offensive and aggressive mansplainin’,
Nerd
WTF?
Okay, to all those who think the shirt is “not a big deal”, imagine the following:
Matt Taylor wears a shirt which portrays 1) a big-lipped black man eating a watermelon, 2) a black woman picking cotton and 3) a black man, arms tied above his head, being whipped.
Now imagine it’s Neil deGrasse Tyson interviewing the guy, or NdGT commenting on television. Here’s a link to NdGT’s experience of racism in science http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=035lOhkNbkM
If you can see how that would be offensive, you ought to be able to see how jerkoff-babes on a shirt would be offensive. Note: offensive. Not illegal. Just horrible crappy, and shittily supportive of a restrictive and abuse status quo.
Something that has been needed to be said all day.
@docfreeride – 107
Well that’s true , although it’s not necessarily innate normativeness. My primary focus has been on the mission itself, and I’d prefer if one person’s attire was not my ( and the general ) memory of the climax of a project which has spanned over 10 years, cost 1.4 billion euros, and required huge temporal investment from the men and women involved. If I’d worked tirelessly for my entire professional career on this project (as some apparently have) I’d be very disappointed if the lasting memory of this day among the public was Matt Taylor’s shirt. I don’t mean to say it should be ignored, only that, in my opinion, it doesn’t warrant primacy over the climax of the Rosetta mission.
On the topic, I saw another picture posted of him wearing a Cannibal Corpse t-shirt, replete with severed limbs and a body being butchered. People have commented that his attire today was intentional, but it’s possible that provocative clothing is normal wear for him. On the issue of whether he was asked to change earlier than he actually did, maybe he was asked and said no. Maybe other members of the team didn’t want to cause tension on the what’s ostensibly the biggest day of their careers. Or perhaps his senior position was intimidating to others who might otherwise have suggested he remove it.
Nerd
What was it smhll’s comment that was ” aggressive mansplainin’ “?
Nerd, perhaps you misread smhll’s comment, I think you are both on the same team on this one.
Nope, more in mind to DW’s mansplainin’ (et al.. quite a few actually) on how his opinion trumped that of those who were offended.
This argument should never be given by anybody who has been through sexual harassment training and remembers what they were taught. My post was a reminder on what they should have learned and remembered forever.
My apologies to smhll.
opposablethumbs @9
I’ve never heard of this person (I don’t follow science news at all) but my first impression on seeing this pic was “What a loser.” Second was “What a creep.” Then I read the article. My opinion hasn’t changed, whatever sort of scientist he is.
aiabx @17
Oh, so misogyny isn’t a big picture? Something that directly harms some 3.5 billion people is less important than a probe landing on a comet? Nice for you to be able to see it that way. Privileged, even.
PZ @74
Greatest. Description. Ever.
Though now I need even more brain bleach.
comfychair @128
I’d go for Tom of Finland pics for maximum dude rage. (NB I never want to see anything like that, or this horrible shirt, in the workplace or for that matter on the street.)
QFT.
corvidd
Oh for fuck’s sake, maybe then he shouldn’t have worn the fucking shirt, then. But he fucking did. Maybe you should stop directing your disappointment toward the people — many of us women — who are tired of this “casual” sexism and instead point it at the man WHO WORE THE FUCKING SHIRT.
And what about the women who helped with this mission? Don’t you think at least some (probably most) of them are pretty fucking disappointed, too, that their male colleague decided to wear this shirt?
Another data point for women pushed out of science. My chem teacher wanted me to go into chemistry, and even wanted to sponsor me for a nation women in science conference for teenagers. Despite some stirrings of interest in the subject, I didn’t go, nor did I pursue chemistry any further. Why? Because at 15 I already knew I would have a harder time as a woman.
After being pushed out of music education, I’m now finishing up an anthropology degree. But I’m considering switching degree paths for graduate study, because a) my disabilities make it hard to do fieldwork, b) anthropology, regardless of subfield, is now considered ‘women’s science’, and c) BECAUSE OF FUCKING ATTITUDES LIKE THAT SHITHEAD IN THE OP. PZ’s posted before about the rate of rape and sexual assault in field schools and fieldwork. That shit doesn’t come out of nowhere. Most men who wear those kinds of shirts aren’t feminists who have a blind spot. Pattern recognition.
@corvidd
Too late. The only thing we can do now is make sure that everyone is aware that this is exactly what will happen if they allow spokespeople to appear on camera clothed in sexist attire. We can’t do that by pretending that it was insignificant. I for one (well another) will always now think of the Rosetta mission as “oh the one where that guy wore that vile sexist shirt and made a sexist comment in the interview”. I was thrilled and amazed at that the success of the landing only to be disgusted and shamed when I saw Taylor & his shirt. Yet another nice thing ruined because some men want to think of me as an object for their gratification. If I was 19, it might have been just the thing to make me walk away from considering a career in science.
None of these would make it better. It would make it worse. If such sexist shirts are normally tolerated, that means the hostile work environment is constant. If he was asked to change and said no, he’s probably sexist in other behaviour too–and *he thinks that’s ok*. If the others around him don’t want to challenge him, that means he’s deliberately using the power of his position to foster a sexist, hostile climate.
@marilove – 168
My empathy was more directed at the others involved with the project, and how their achievements and hard work are being eclipsed.
I have no idea what the women who worked on the mission thought of Taylor’s shirt. Indeed some of them might have been offended, others might not have cared. Given how much attention this has garnered, perhaps one of them will comment, so we might have at least partial clarity on that.
Their hard work isn’t being eclipsed. This discussion is happening in parallel to discussing the wonderful achievement that this was.
The fact that you find the discussion of sexism in science (this time, really fucking obvious sexism, even!) to eclipse anything at all is pretty shitty, actually. Personally, as a woman, I always find the open and frank discussion of sexism, particularly sexism this fucking blatant, to be pretty eliminating.
Do you suppose any of them are as confused as you about whether the problem regarding their work being eclipsed lies with the sexist dude who wore the sexist shirt, or the people who are unhappy about the sexist dude who wore the sexist shirt?
POOP. I meant illuminating. That’s what I get for trying to be clever and snarky at the same time.
I’m guessing you’re on your phone and meant to type “illuminating.”
What do I win?
Nope! I am in, fact not. I just typed the wrong word because I type at least 140 WPM and sometimes my brain can’t keep up lol. I am also half distracted by Accounting homework.
But you’re still a winner in my book, Sally. ;)
Also can’t do periods very well either, it appears!
Commas. Not periods. I give up on the internets today. Holy fuck. Weee. Back to Accounting.
140 WPM?
Envy! :)
Hrm… these images of shirts with lil’ shriveled penises… I suddenly had this idea…
See, yeah, I was over the moon (if you’ll pardon the expression) over this thing happening, too. Didn’t have any time to watch, though, busy at work… Caught some of the technical stuff about the harpoon and thruster malfunctions, didn’t see any of the press conference level stuff…
And now I come home to this, and yeah, disappointing. Thanks, dude. Seriously. What the hell? And agreed it’s a good question: what were the rest of them thinking? No one looks at this guy, thinks to say, listen: not cool. And yeah, how ever could people get the idea there are cultural barriers to women entering STEM fields. I mean, how very, very puzzling…
But like I said: idea!
That being: how ’bout we just fix this in post? How ’bout in all rebroadcasts of this footage, we just overlay Mr. Taylor’s image with that of a giant talking dick?
(… beat…)
(/… well, y’know… Just trying to give the compositors an easy one, here.)
At the end of his interview, he raises his arms with both thumbs up sort of like a chimp signalling victory. I wouln’t be surprised if he had a bet with someone about whether or not he’d get away with wearing that shirt.
I couldn’t find any other references either, but from this link:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/sciencetech/video-1135292/Dr-Matt-Taylor-wears-fun-shirt-calling-Rosetta-mission-sexy.html
(the daily mail, of course)
… I got the impression that he might have been trying to say something like:
“This mission was sexier than this shirt!”
which, I suppose could….
naw. It’s fucked up, no matter WHAT he thought his message was.
Anyone not on TV as part of his everyday life– and even people who are– think about what they will wear for mass media. Of course. We’re vain and insecure creatures, every one of us. And if someone is about to be embalmed in celluloid or electronic amber for the next hundred years, about to have his image spread like dandelion seeds, then you better fucking believe he’s been planning his Shirt For The Occasion for weeks. Hell, he may have bought it for this. When I (rarely) have be on TV, I spend an hour in from of a mirror trying on shirts and wondering, “Does my neck look yellow?”
And when he showed up today wearing this, or perhaps ran into his office to throw on the Press Conference Shirt then sauntered out to the conference room for interviews, either a) no one stopped him, or b) someone stopped him and he ignored the advice.
I doubt anyone at ESA cares that this jackass wore a tone-deaf sexist shirt. The Rosetta landing is remarkable; the regrettable ESA spokesdouche cannot diminish that. He does, however, point up the fallibility and structural sexism of ESA.
I can’t see how their commentary would in any way affect what I think of what Matt did here.
what he did stands on its own merits.
er, demerits.
yeah, watching an astronaut die from exposure and oxygen deprivation just so they could moon the audience from the moon would indeed have been memorable.
meh, I suppose they *might* have been able to pull it off during the exact right moment during transition from day/night, if one of the other guys was there to help zip up again, very quickly.
OTOH, we did get… golf.
“I can’t see how their commentary would in any way affect what I think of what Matt did here.
what he did stands on its own merits.
er, demerits.”
I agree, but it would clarify to what degree Taylor is sexist, and by extension, given that he’s one of the lead scientists, whether there’s a pervasive culture of sexism in the ESA. I know very little about the man, so I’d like to hear from women ( or men, if they have relevant information ) who’ve actually worked with him before I make any final judgements.
Thought to self: What is the minimum I can do to get a heap of the PC, Looney Left to foam at the mouth. I know, I’ll wear my favorite debate inducing shirt. Brilliant!
Why do idiots always ignore the evidence that is directly under their nose if sexism is involved? The fact that he owns that shirt, and wore it to a press conference is proof that he is a misogynistic asshole, and constitutes proof that ESA has a serious sexism problem.
dravid @ #187
Based on the above comment, I wouldn’t be surprised if you did indeed one (or several) “debate-inducing” shirts. That, and a poor understanding of what “foaming at the mouth” means, apparently.
But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night, dude.
dravid… when you use comments like “PC Looney Left” we don’t NEED to guess at your motivations.
brilliant isn’t the word that best fits there.
me @ #189
That should read “I wouldn’t be surprised if you did indeed own one (or several) ‘debate-inducing’ shirts”
dravid
Why would you stop at “the minimum”? You’ve already crossed the bar of human decency by demonizing a viewpoint which you have yet to critique in any valid way and insinuating mental condition is required to treat women respectfully – no not the cartoon women on the shirt who “Can’t help it, they’re just drawn that way.” – but the women who have to see that shirt. Duly noted on that last bit. Your exit from here will be heralded with much rejoicing. Convince with the offing of the fuck.
Can we return dravid? I ordered an extra-fresh troll and this one’s smelling like it’s been dead for a month. It’s not very lively either.
Maybe it’s pining for the fjords?
I would be extraordinarily pissed off if I were part of that team, even if his shirt had been, say, a Naruto shirt or a quad-color hibiscus shirt. Because what that shirt did was to call attention directly to him. It screamed ME ME ME ME ME LOOK AT ME I’M THE TOP PEACOCK. Even if you take the sexist tacky part out of it, it was very clearly him trying to be a standout kingpin rather than a member of a team.
dravid, #187
Woah, everyone……. you won’t believe this, but… I think I can read minds.
Saad @195
“Minds”? I thought I was reading a 1940 advertisement for kitchen appliances through a fuzzy jello mould!
Nuh-uh! It just means that he likes drawings of half-nude women adorning his clothing because he thinks they make good objects, er… pictures to wear! And it shows how much he loves and respects women that he will wear it to such an important event! And they all think that too! Why, he’s wearing that shirt to honor women, not to objectify them! We should be proud that he chose to highlight the beauty of women on his shirt!
Need some castor oil with that, or are you sufficiently gagging already?
;)
Oh, fuck you for playing the hyperskepticism game with sexism, ONE MORE FUCKING TIME.
Precisely how sexist is Dr. Taylor? Who fucking cares! Even supposing he spends every single weekend volunteering to teach little girls rocket science and helping at the battered women’s shelter, and never uttered a sexist remark in his life, this one incident is still sexist. And it was sexist in a way that guaranteed that this particular bit of sexism would be broadcast around the world. To millions upon millions of women and girls.
He packed more deleterious impact into that ONE choice than most men who aren’t rapists manage to pack into a lifetime.
And you want to quibble about precisely how sexist he is? WHY? Seriously, what difference does it make? You don’t need to know him to know that what he did was really fucking sexist, and very damaging.
Accounts from other people will only clarify the degree to which his anti-woman bias is encouraged vs. merely tolerated by his colleagues. Neither is a good look for either him or the ESA.
Why the FUCK are you hesitating to “pass a final judgment”, you pusillanimous asshole? It’s not like you can condemn him to death. It’s not like you hold the power to deny any grants he may have written.
Don’t try to comfort yourself thinking that hey, at least you’re not as bad as dravid with his overt hostility towards women’s equality. You’re not. You’re worse. He’s an obvious, easily dealt with enemy.
You’re a fucking snake in the grass.
As the OP and several other posters have already pointed out on this thread, what is disturbing here is not only that this specific individual deliberately wore a garment that is obviously misogynistic to what he surely knew in advance would be a highly publicised event – leaving him either a calculated bigot or spectacularly clueless about how his actions can have a toxic effect upon those exposed to coverage of his idiocy (and not only is such a high level of thoughtlessness unlikely, but in the event that this somehow did occur such utter disinterest in how his actions effect others is scarcely better than wilfull bigotry actively intended to exclude and marginalise women) – but that no one else on the team in any position of authority sought to stop him from doing this.
Even leaving aside the misogynistic content of the imagery, this is utterly unprofessional behaviour that would seem to give a very poor impression of the project, and when that is combined with a garment that expresses a mindset that views women as mere living sex toys (even as the difficulties in retaining women in STEM fields are well publicised and supposedly tackling this issue is a high priority) it is hard to credit that no one thought to take this guy aside and making it clear that a change of clothing was required. The fact that this didn’t happen leads to the unpleasent conclusion that his garb is merely the obvious tip of a very much larger iceberg of misogynistic sentiment so deeply entrenched that his behaviour was written off with the old ‘boys will be boys’ excuse, or was even tacitly endorsed.
It is hardly surprising that such a working environment would be unwelcoming to women, and so long as it endures then this kind of high profile project will (for the most part at least) remain a narrow boys club, which seems to be exactly what a segment of the male scientific community (not to mention some of the commenters on this very thread) wants.
There was a time when I would have expected better from a fairly prominent scientist. Sadly, those days of naivite are long gone.
They’re all white women, too, on his shirt. White women are decorations. Black women? Women of color? May as well not exist at all.
I’m still so angry about this. It makes me angry every time I think about it. And the false friend dudebros whining about how it “distracts” from the achievement? Fuck you. Sexism distracts half the population from being able to live to their fullest potential. You’re not helping.
Thanks guys, response exactly as expected, you went straight into abuse mode. By the way, I agree that the shirt is awful. Did you notice how he is wearing over his Polo Shirt?
So, there was this chick, yo. And she had a coffee cup. It said ‘I bathe in male tears’. And hey, you didn’t see men complaining about that, right? Because men are tough and it’s just words, and had logic and shit and so only focused on what was importan….
No, wait, they flipped the fuck out….
It’s almost like there is some rank hypocrisy going on with the defenders of this shirt….
—–Thanks guys, response exactly as expected, you went straight into abuse mode.—-
Translation from troll to English:
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!! Mommy, they hit me back! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
dravid, you deserved every bit of abuse thrown at you, you gormless fuckwit.
Fixed that for you Dravid.
@Tethys -188 I don’t believe I’m ignoring it. I just don’t want to base my judgement of Matt Taylor, a man who I know almost nothing about, based on one piece of clothing . I already acknowledged that his t-shirt was inappropriate.
I’d prefer to hear from women who’ve worked with him before I make that final judgement; whether this is regular attire and if it bothers them; whether they think there’s institutional sexism in the ESA; whether he’s acted inappropriately towards female colleagues in the past.
SallyStrange @201,
Very astute observation, we didn’t even notice that. It seems that racism and sexism go together like peas and carrots.
In other words, you smeared shit on the walls and think it’s some sort of accomplishment that mommy is yelling at you. Yes yes. Well done. You correctly predicted that expressing insulting, bigoted viewpoints would lead decent human beings to express their contempt for you and your views.
I’d prefer to
hear from women who’ve worked with himstick my head up my ass and yell lalalalalalalalalalala before Imake that final judgementwill acknowledge blatant sexism as blatant sexism. FIFMARGH I AM SO FRUSTRATED
WHY DO YOU DO THIS??!?
WHO asked you to pass judgment on Dr. Taylor as a person? NOBODY.
WHO asked you to be the lead investigator to determine whether Dr. Taylor’s workplace meets the criteria for a hostile work environment? NOBODY.
Why are you pretending like you are some sort of judge or criminal investigator?
Seriously, what the FUCK is going through your BRAIN? WHAT IS YOUR DAMAGE?
SallyStrange @ 201;
Exactly. That is just another sexist and racist cleft stick that our culture loves to force women into – if you are a white woman you can aspire to be a dehumanised peice of sexual decoration (how lucky is that?) and in the process be held to an unobtainable notional physical ‘ideal’ of womanhood that matches the preferences of the more privilged and influential dudebros out there. And of course be judged harshly for failing to be the perfect living sex toy they desire, or if you do happen to conform reasonably closely to the physical parameters arbitrarily laid down by society then you get to be treated as the ‘rightful reward’ for those privileged men who perform their gender in a sufficiently unenlightened and oppressive fashion (consent? What’s that?). And lets not forget that all the while you will be also be being judged as a ‘slut’ if you show any sexual agency of your own whatsoever, and yet also as a ‘prude’ if you show the slightest sexual reticence.
And yet, as bad as that all is, it is still better than the lot of women of colour who seem to possess a curious property of total social invisibility within our racism and patriarchy saturated culture, except when it comes to ‘putting them in their place’ when they get ‘uppity’. A smothering blanket of total marginalisation that doesn’t even offer the possibilty of really being recognised as a person at all, even if it is merely for one’s sexual desireability.
It is one of the most widespread expressions of caustic intersectional oppression, and it is so normalised in our culture that any attempt to simply point out that it is a problem will be met with immediate hostility and pushback.
As a woman in our society, you only ever really get different flavours of patriarchal poison poured down your throat; the vanilla flavoured one definitely tastes better than the excrement flavoured one, but both are toxic.
rq at 21
me at 139
But maybe women’s words are invisible to you?
Then why are you trying to upstage them by landing your head in Uranus?
@166,
Thanks, we’re fine. My use of a rhetorical question made it rather fuzzy about where I fell on the issue.
I think the boob-jutting pinup girls on his shirt aren’t appropriate for the office. I will back up anyone who wants me to back them up and say “not cool”.
And I would have been better if I hadn’t seemed to appeal to the “reasonable man” standard, when the EEOC (or the courts?) have stated (in the US) that the “reasonable woman” standard is what’s relevant when women report harassment at work. (I’m pulling this from so deep in the bowels of my memory that I might be pulling it straight out of my ass.)
(I’m not enough of a space exploration fan to know what country his office is in.)
Wipe your chins, it’s not a good look. I didn’t think that I was being subtle however, have you ever heard of the term “Devil Advocate”?
Carlie, wife and two strong minded daughters I ignore women’s words to my peril.
“Devil’s advocate” is typically used by assholes who know that their actual beliefs are horrible and unacceptable, but want to be able to air those opinions from the safety of a rhetorical.
Same with “But I’m related to women so…”
You know what I do with “Devil’s Advocates”?
I ban them.
Have you ever heard the term fuckbrained shitweasel?
If your comments here are any indication of how you think you’re not really sexist, I expect one of them should be hitting you upside the head with a clue by four any second now.
Playing the Devil’s Advocate means deliberately providing a contradictory argument to test for the soundness of a position and find flaws that should be amended or considered. Playing the Devil’s Advocate is not saying “U Mad Bro?” and dropping steaming piles of smug all around. Glad to be rid of you Dravid.
Thunk went the banhammer, and not a fuck was given.
Devil’s advocate= not arguing in good faith. Why, oh why, would anyone be annoyed by that?
“WHO asked you to pass judgment on Dr. Taylor as a person? NOBODY. ”
In the post to which I was responding, my response to which you quoted, Taylor was labelled a “misogynistic asshole” , and I’ve seen him described in similar terms in other posts throughout this thread, so I don’t think it was inappropriate to address that aspect ( I’m not trying to pass judgement on him as a whole, only on this particular part ) his character, given that many people have already done so. My opinion of Taylor will be far lower if it subsequently becomes apparent that he’s harassed female colleagues, or leveraged his position as a lead scientist to impede women ( or anyone ) working at the ESA.
“WHO asked you to be the lead investigator to determine whether Dr. Taylor’s workplace meets the criteria for a hostile work environment? NOBODY. ”
Several posters have also commented on the ESA, and what this incident reveals about it, so I don’t believe it was irrelevant to address this matter either. Single incidents like this can often, in my opinion, reveal far more egregious problems in institutions / regarding certain individuals, so now that Taylor has received so much scrutiny, a more unpalatable side to the ESA which had, up to now, received little or no attention, might be uncovered. If there is institutional , pervasive sexism at a major intergovernmental organisation , then that would be a much bigger problem in my view.
“Why are you pretending like you are some sort of judge or criminal investigator?”
I’m not pretending to be anything, or at least not trying to; this is the way I try to arrive at conclusions; apologies if it comes off as overly formal and pedantic, but it’s my preferred approach, because it allows me to make as impartial a judgement as I can, and remain relatively emotionless ( some people can argue fine with emotion, I can’t ) . And it’s probably influenced to some degree by OCD.
I think Taylor’s actions were :
A.) Unprofessional
B.) Inappropriate contextually ( large worldwide audience watching, attire clearly insulting to a significant number of people ).
I’m not sure where I stand on the overall appropriateness. If he was wearing this in the privacy of his own home I don’t know to what degree I’d be critical ( if at all ). I’m trying to apply the same standards to him as I would to someone I personally know, and if one of them behaved similarly I’d be equally critical; but along this spectrum, if I’m going to criticise men I know for having a picture of a model in a bikini on their wall, or women I’m friends with for having a poster of a topless guy posing on their bedroom wall / sharing a picture of Cristiano Ronaldo in his underwear on Facebook, I’m not sure I’d be immediately bringing out accusations of sexism.
If? IF????
Can I live in YOUR fairy fantasy land where a large organization comprised overwhelmingly of men does NOT have a problem with pervasive sexism? Clearly you don’t live on Earth.
@corvid #222
Funny thing about structural bigotry in society is that large, specialized organizations tend to amplify the effect of the bigotry. Unchecked (deliberately ignored?) privilege puts people with already overrepresented points of view and attitudes in positions of power. Privilege feeds itself. Privilege excuses bad behavior by minimizing its effect. Privilege draws people like you to rush in and defend somebody’s bad taste and judgement that hints at an underlying sexism.
Late to the party for dravid. buhbye
but
corvidd
This is not rocket surgery
Doing this
<blockquote>paste copied text here</blockquote>
Results in this
It makes comments with quotes easier to read.
It will do nothing for the content.
Also,
He wasn’t wearing this in his home, he was wearing it on a GLOBAL FUCKING TELEVISION BROADCAST. It’s pretty pointless to invent and mull over an innocuous scenario when an egregious one has occurred, don’t you think?
Look, corvidd, I’m going to cut to the chase. You’re dancing around admitting that basically you’re also kind of a misogynist asshole and as such it makes you uncomfortable to label another misogynist asshole, a misogynist asshole.
There. Now it’s out in the open. Now you can fuck off and cry about how mean and unreasonable feminists are.
@gog
Well, I don’t think I’ve defended Taylor ( I’ve stated that his attire was inappropriate and unprofessional ), I just haven’t gone as far in condemnation as other have. As for the ESA, which I presume was the focus of your comment, I’m not going to accuse an organisation of structural bigotry before I investigate in depth. If you’ve done so, and concluded that the ESA is indeed tarnished by this, fair enough.
@chigau
Thank you for reminder !
You are defending sexism, by refusing to notice the sexism even when it is this blatant.
Yep, so totally not defending Taylor. It’s just them silly wimmenz blowing things out of proportion like they do. *eyeroll*
@ SallyStrange
Well I disagree. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to avoid lurching towards judgements.
Also, while I don’t mind criticism, the commenting rules do mention being egregiously abusive, and some of the content of your posts ( 227 & 199 ) in my opinion fit this description ( if the moderators decide otherwise then fair enough ).
This is not egregious abuse, you warthog-faced whimpering pustule. You haven’t seen egregious abuse. And don’t pretend like your cowardice isn’t an insult to human decency in and of itself. Learn to deal with emotions. If you can’t handle discussion with emotion then this isn’t the venue for you.
Seriously. I would prefer that you fuck off and find some sexist men to cry to about how mean and unreasonable I am. It will save a lot of time.
oh myyy.
perfect setup, btw.
This is you, corvidd, spreading the pernicious lie that structural bigotry is NOT ingrained in all of our societal institutions.
That is false and insulting and it is leading you to defend sexism. Fix it or get the fuck out.
This is a rude blog asshole corvidd, and you are well beyond the 3 post rule. If you can’t deal with your fucked up opinions getting all the respect they deserve from Sally, perhaps you should crawl off to someplace that is more conducive to being a mansplaining sexist asshat.
yup, exactly right.
didn’t we come up with a term for people who degrade the obvious with discussion of obtuse hypotheticals?
I’m sure we did.
Also, your pretense that the existence of a lead scientist who felt comfortable and powerful enough that he could wear a blatantly insulting sexist shirt and not have anybody stop him before he went on camera and became a huge distraction from what the organization’s stated mission was, which was for Rosetta to send the lander successfully and for the media to cover the event and focus on the technical accomplishments of the team, is NOT sufficient evidence to conclude that there is some degree of institutional sexism at the ESA is false and insulting. The only question is how deep it runs. I mean come the fuck on! It’s Europe! He’s British! They practically invented sexism!
I know! Let’s ask Richard Dawkins what HE thinks of it!
Press conference attire; getting it right not exactly rocket science.
corvidd @230:
There are no moderators here.
@207:
Strange. I find it reasonable to decide that he’s a sexist pissant based on the sexually objectifying shirt he’s wearing. For some reason, you need further evidence before reaching the same (or a similar) conclusion. Hyperskeptical much?
corvidd
You could be next, unless you clean up your act.
ha! win.
corvidd @ 230:
Why? He’s not going to be harmed in any way by people judging him based on the sexist shirt he’s wearing. What’s the harm in making a judgement call about the guy?
Also, like you said, Tony, there is no fucking lurching. From “Oh hey, lead scientist, on day of big interview, chose to decorate himself with cartoonish images of sexualized and objectified white women” to “Oh hey lead scientist is a sexist arsehole” is pretty much a straight line.
Dr. Taylor shoved it in front of our faces and demanded that we notice. Whatever his motivations, it’s clear he wants people to draw SOME sort of conclusion from his choice of attire.
I don’t do Twitter.
Has Dawkins weighed in yet?
Unlikely, it’s just like 5 or 6 in the morning where he is.
@corvidd #230
The crux of the matter here is that we’re not lurching toward judgements. The shirt is sexist because it makes decorations out of depictions of idealized female bodies. The depictions aren’t even characters, either; they’re just drawings of femmes fatales with nothing else seemingly important about them, in an average-to-poor grade comic book style. Definitely tasteless. Probably sexist.
gog @246:
This is more accurate, IMO.
Yes, but he didn’t seem to notice or have an issue with the shirt.
My guess is that if pressed on the issue, DickieD will respond with a variant of “Dear Muslima”, similar to the way Jimharrison did at #39.
mark my words.
probably won’t use the word “phooey” though.
Also, I’m noticing a trend–and please forgive me if I’m late to this party, I’m still learning–that the people who are ignorant of their own shared privilege with this Matt Taylor guy are readily saying that it was unprofessional and tacky, but screech to a halt at the sexism part. They acknowledge the inappropriateness of the action (here: wearing that goddamn shirt), but why stop at acknowledgement? Why get that far and be like “well, I don’t know why he did it, but here are some scenarios that make it less bad than the most likely one.”
Fucking infuriating.
@Tony #247
You’re correct, but I was mixing up wording to make the end less repetitive. That probably weakened the point I was trying to get across, though.
ayup
I shur am.
yup, it is.
I don’t see why anyone should be proud of being human. It’s not an accomplishment, it’s not something you did.
/snark
SallyStrange (#201)
Frankly, given how cartoon cheesecake of women of color almost always ends up with a hefty bonus helping of racism, that’s better than the alternative. They’d be dressed up as witch doctors or geisha or harem girls or slutty Indian princesses.
corvidd (#230)
You’re already starting from judgements, dumbass. Such as your refusal to entertain the infinitely more likely “it’s sexism” explanation as the null hypothesis here. You’re too busy patting yourself on the back for supposed moderation to notice your biases and fallacious thinking. Only it’s not actual moderation to demand absurdly high levels of evidence before arriving at the most probable conclusion.
I’m opposed to the idea that everyone in that position ought to be dressing conservatively. I’d like to see more bold, loud, and exuberant clothing out there. Men’s fashion is boring enough as it is, and I hate to see the “you can wear any shirt you like as long as it’s bland as fuck” being reinforced.
The problem with the shirt isn’t that it isn’t conservative, but the fact it’s sexist as fuck. He could’ve worn something similar to the styles Matías Duarte is known for, or even that Dragonball Z shirt linked upthread, and there wouldn’t have been a single problem.
The fact that a shirt that horribly sexist can make it to the forefront of media attention at an event that has never before occurred in the history of the human race – considering all the hurdles that needed to be passed to get on that TV screen, how many people (high and low) had to see that shirt and could have said something – yes, I’d say it’s pretty darn structural. And yes, Taylor is the public face of the ESA on this, and yes, that does tarnish ESA by default.
This is not the first time this has been said. Do y’all even read the comments before you say it’s not as bad as women are saying it is?
Bahahahaha. You mean there’s a longer route to take from “a high-profile scientist wearing a sexist shirt on global TV” to “he’s kind of a sexist asshole”? I did kind of lurch into that judgement, but only because the kick to the guts with that image was rather strong.
Also, his words. The words he used. It’s not just the shirt, it’s his entire attitude and use of sexist imagery that makes him the sexist asshole.
Though the shirt would be enough.
ck
Heck, even Don Cherry never wore sexist shirts. And he was a high-profile media personality with a loud sense of fashion (in Canada, I’ll grant you).
rq wrote:
No, but he’s an arch conservative, so he still lets his sexism occasionally slip. His xenophobia and homophobia, on the other hand, are worn on his sleeve.
ck
Oh, I agree with you there, it’s just that even with his vile views, he lets his mouth do the talking, and presents an acceptably non-sexist visual image to media.
… Which sounds like an endorsement of his views and his free speech, and it really isn’t meant to be, when it would probably be best to say that, even with his views, he enforces for himself a non-sexist, professional, public dress code.
8.61 kilodouches.
(Or 37.29 deciPUAs, if you’re American).
Next question.
Oh really?
Ol Scratch says he’s never heard of you, let alone hired you.
Now is that Misdemeanor “labelling a misogynistic asshole” or felony “labeling a misogynistic asshole?”
Really? All you have to do is dress like a white Englishman with money and you automatically get extra respectability points (the exact quantity, of course, depending on how “like” you dress). Whatsoever could be wrong with THAT?!
we’re in competition with the entire animal kingdom of course.
We’re just winning in the battle for space domination!
Suck it, Dolphins!
proud to be human!
;)
Feh. I have it on good authority at least one Mars probe is/was *covered* in ants.
Is Matt Taylor wearing “the hair shirt or something”? It would have been better had he rather just checked his privilege.
if it is as it has been noted that he has a lot of shirts like that I doubt he is only a problem for the few women that have to work with him. It suggests to me that he might be a little over bearing he certainly is advertizing to all that he is a big schmuck.
I am not sure if his actions were very good for his career, unless he posses some extraordinary skills in his field of science and has great team management skills that are not in evidence. Given the choice of who to hire for positions of responsibility and that interact with the public the top people have to consider how everything effects funding I am not so sure that “jack the lad” here is such a great spokesman to say we are doing great work here. More like ain’t we cool and we can party as well as work on the job!
it would not surprise me if he was not egged on by someone so they could laugh at him behind his back.
uncle frogy
@128 Indeed, comfychair! Or could you imagine the disingenious defenders of Taylor’s satorial choice rallying to the dude’s banner if he wore a shirt covered in Tom of Finland imagery? I think not.
@ gog
If it’s just tacky, it’s not hurting anyone. If they acknowledge its sexism, then there might be an argument for dudebros to change their behavior.
Well, it looks like the maker of the shirt could not be more pleased: http://www.facebook.com/ellyprizeman/posts/10154820845765191
#230, corvidd
Y’know, under other circumstances you might have a point here… innocent until proven guilty, and all that.
But that shirt just ended up on a global broadcast during a historic event, because everyone involved thought it was just fine, or because no-one involved thought they could speak out. Either way, that’s a big helping of sexism on multiple levels in a high profile, large budget project* right there in front of the whole world, which is why we’re having this conversation in the first place. This isn’t just rumour, or circumstantial evidence.
* 1.4 billion euros, about 2000 people involved over the project lifespan. It would be rather silly to imagine that there wasn’t a reasonable amount of upper management oversight going on here.
Also, a hefty “fuck you” to the independent, who are merrily repeating “Dr Matt Taylor is what every scientist should look like – rad shirt, sleeve tattoos. Rad” from some random twitter post.
sw
Yeah, why would we think that the person running around in sheets and with a pointy hat is racist. We don’t get to decide what that means, there are no well established symbolisms anywhere, the world is recreated every fucking second and history gets erased.
+++
This, absolutely.
We watched some children’s TV with news about this before the landing, lots of the featuring female scientists, but I’m pretty glad we didn’t watch the live broadcast because that is not appropriate for my kids of 5 and 7 to see. They are getting too focussed on how they should look like as opposed to what they can do already.
+++
carbonfox
I’m sorry your husband chose this moment to not get it.
dravid
Has it occurred to you that:
– we have indeed
– a few hundred times
– get fucking annoyed at being used for your personal entertainment
accidentially hit “post”, so let me continue…
–it’s the fucking metaphorical devil you’re advocating for, so you should be ashamed
corvidd
You know, when I see one of my neighbours wearing a shirt with the label of a neonazi clothing company, I don’t need to get to know them any further. I keep my distance. If I see a guy wearing a shirt with women as fucktoys, on international TV, for a major science event, I don’t need to know them any further either.
Azkyroth @263
Which says something about the quality of his advocacy, if you know that joke that ends with the Devil saying to God ” “Yeah, right. And just where are YOU going to get a lawyer?”
My goodness, this one isn’t that hard. There’s zero nuance here. This isn’t a difficult-to-dissect situation like “Chuck got the promotion instead of me, but we did come in at the same time and we each landed a major account, so I’m not sure if its sexism or if he’s just a better people person.” This is a shirt printed with women in leather sex outfits, being worn by a guy whose statement to the press was that “she was sexy, but not easy”. What else would it take for some of the people in this thread to decide that it’s full-on sexist? Would you only believe it if the guy also has a “no fat chicks” bumper sticker on his office door? Would you only believe it if he wears the shirt, has the sticker on the door, and always uses one of those mugs with a picture of a woman in a dress on it but when you put hot coffee in the mug the dress disappears? I mean, that shirt is Truck Nutz levels of obvious.
XKCD, Devil’s Advocate.
So, guys in this thread who are complaining that we are taking the emphasis off of the great event by talking about one man’s shirt – are you going to make the same complaint to The Independent? They’re doing the same thing.
And nice, Taylor got just what he obviously wanted – articles that paid attention to HIM AND HOW RAD HE IS instead of the even that was planned and carried out by a huge group of people.
For the love of all that’s good in the world, can someone, someone please, get to work on a woman’s size lab-coat decorated entirely with the works of Tom of Finland. If you are doing this already, I salute you.
I didn’t see the first interview when he was wearing that tacky shirt, but i did watch the second one where he wasn’t wearing it anymore. As i was watching the second one i was thinking “this guy is trying really hard to be funny and he is failing misserably O_o” then when he was done i saw the audience’s reaction which was….cold….
Now knowing that he had worn that shirt in the first one i’m guessing (or hoping, rather) that part of the coldness from the audience was as a result of having seen him being an arsehole in the first one.
It’s great that scientific events like this are becoming more relaxed and informal and that peopel aren’t being forced to comply to ridiculous cultural standards, but this wasn’t it….this was one fucking sexist idiot who thinks being completely inapropriate and offensive to half of the audience and to his female coworkers is funny and edgy. I’m going to be charitable and assume he wore it for the edginess and the geekiness rather than as a conscious sexist act, but that doesn’t excuse it one bit and neither does it excuse everybody who failed to stop him from embarrashing his team.
A year ago I’d have said that if the women on his shirt had been mammies, people would not defend him wearing it.
Oh, for those heady days when I didn’t realize just how fucked up our society is. My white privilege kept me from having to know lots of nasty things about society.
Now I know better. Whether a man wears a racist sexist depiction of women or just a sexist one, people are going to say it is petty, bad and no fun to point out that bigotry isn’t hip or fun.
HE disrespected the people’s achievements that were supposed to be celebrated, not the people pointing out that wearing that shirt was a shitty thing to do.
For a brain/palate cleanser: http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-30022765
Or maybe it makes it just worse. In the process of this I’ve seen so many women work hard on this project and the above picture is how they get represented.
We can land a craft on a comet, but we still can’t treat women like people instead of sex-things.
I don’t see that as an achievement.
Then again, I’m just a silly woman. Logic just doesn’t come as naturally as it does for men. What do I know? Shouldn’t I be somewhere being nurturing or posing in leather underwear for some man instead of having opinions? Thinking and speaking are more of a guy thing. That must be why women don’t go into STEM fields. /s
corvidd, #228
There is no need to investigate in more depth. The importance of the event and the amount of people around the world whose attention it had are more than enough reasons to be able to see it’s a bigger problem than just Taylor. If at an Olympic event, a famous athlete had those pictures plastered all over his outfit, it’s fair to criticize that country for thinking something obviously misogynistic like that is okay. Or if the vice presidents to wear a tie with half-naked women on it during a State of the Union, I’ll conclude the president and other people in power there are a bit sexist too.
chigau, #244
“Hey, I have the exact same shirt!”
SallyStrange, #231
I just want to take time to appreciate your posts when it comes to replying to this sort of stuff.
corvidd
Did you also ignore THIS statement the same man made about this mission?
And I quote: “It’s sexy, but not easy.”
Do we really need yet more proof? How much proof do you need?
And IF there is institutionalized sexism?! Are you kidding me? I am tired of people, largely men, ignoring the clear and obvious evidence presented to them. “Oh, it’s just one little thing. Just a molehill” as someone said above. As they ignore the fucking mountain looming behind them.
But sure sure, we’ll just keep presenting evidence of sexism and institutionalize sexism and you’ll just continue to say, “Welllllllllllll, we need more information.” Fuck that shit and seriously, fuck you. YOU ARE defending Taylor. You don’t seem to agree that this obvious evidence presented to you proves that he’s a sexist asshat. Well, I disagree. You’re wrong.
blockquote>It’s pretty pointless to invent
Notice that? Yeah. We wimmins just invent shit. We make shit up. We are delusional (as someone else alluded to above) and we invent sexism up in our poor little hysterical brains.
The gaslighting is obvious, dude.
Ah hell I can’t html today. One day I’ll comment without error!
Can you even imagine if one of the female scientists had actually dressed like the women on his shirt for this televised event? The uproar would be deafening.
Can you imagine a woman making those faces and stretching languidly in her corset as she is interviewed about the landing and pursing her high gloss lips?
Never
in
a
million
years.
That’s because her agency is horrifying, but his is considered natural.
I’m a bit of a fan of Rockabilly, Punkabilly, and Psychobilly. I like alot of the fashion around it too. I like the history of subcultures that tied politics, fashion and music. I like the idea of the lower class rebelling and setting themselves apart rather than trying to blend into and gain approval from the prevailing cultures that looked down on them them.
I understand that pin-up girl inspired fashion is popular. I get that people see the sexualized depictions of women of a certain era as glamorous and feminine, pretty, yet somehow updated, empowered and punk. I get that women want to own their sexuality. Just like the beard is back, ear gauges, tats and victory rolls go together now. They look fab-U-lous. I’m not knocking the look at all. There is a difference between how a woman chooses to express herself and displaying women as sex-things that exist to titillate and white, straight dudes.
Yet if a woman did dress like the women on that shirt, she would not be taken seriously or even allowed on TV. If she was she’d be getting hate mail and rape threats right now. That wouldn’t happen though, because she’d have been fired on the spot for wearing lingerie to work.
It is not hip or punk to have pictures of sultry, impractical under garment wearing Fedricks of Hollywood models plastered all over yourself, on international TV while representing a professional organization of any kind. The shirt was crap. It wasn’t even the good kind of cheap and tawdry. The seamstress showed poor judgement in making it and the the man who wore it showed even worse judgement. Not because it was “tacky” (which it was) but because it was sexist as fuck and if the man wearing it on TV and the people who did not stop him from wearing it on TV do not want to be considered sexist as fuck, they shouldn’t act as if they are.
@Giliell (#284) Thanks for that, it was wonderful.
Is the obtuseness in some of these comments intentional? I mean, they have to be really actively trying to not get it, right? Isn’t this simply the most obvious thing in the world?
Giliell
I’m still trying to find a good one of the woman with the lander team (the ones in the small room with Dr Ulamec – Elsa Montagnon in the picture here, also here). A lot of quiet emotion there, too, in the flurry of hugs. More of that, please. Too bad someone turned the attention onto himself.
Anyhow, this article has a nice contrast on how (not) to portray a welcoming atmosphere for women in science. Compares the landing of Philae with the launch of India’s Mars project.
Amy Cocks:
“For the love of all that’s good in the world, can someone, someone please, get to work on a woman’s size lab-coat decorated entirely with the works of Tom of Finland.”
And Amy wins the prize!
The works of Tom of Finland….displayed on TV coverage of space travel all over the world (evil laughter).
Alternatively, one of the background video monitors could display the original, uncensored video version of FGTH’s “Relax”
I’m sorry, what?
Never mind. Google is my friend.
Jackie @ 291;
Quoted for truth. This is exactly where a lot of toxic misogyny comes from. The problem with sexual objectification is not specifically that the imagery is sexual, but that it is of a sexual object, stripped of agency and humanity. PUAs and assorted other clueless doodz may love to parade around images that depict women in a highly sexualised light for their own amusement/titillation and that of their fellow travellers, but their response to women who are prepared to present themselves in a sexualised manner of their own free will, and do so in a fashion that unambiguously asserts their agency and humanity, is enlightening and disturbing in equal measure.
What one might have thought should be the partial consummation of the fantasies of these dudebros – a woman who is happy to actually present herself in the kind of highly sexualised manner the dudebros find so alluring in safely (from the dudebro persepctive) agency-free imagery – is instead met with misogynistic hostility about the supposed ‘sluttiness’ or sexual immorality of the woman in question, or with some other means of denigrating her. The MRAs and PUAs consistently reject the human component in the sexuality of women. They obsess over obedient, mindless fembots; unthinking gynoids in a pretty wrapper. They are entirely disinterested in accepting and dealing with the dreams, aspirations, character and humanity of the actual person that possesses the physical attributes they desire.
In the final analysis, these sexist bigots want a sex toy with a pulse, not an actual woman, and when reality fails to conform to their fantasy they lash out.
It is dehumanisation at its most rank and repugnant.
Speaking of anachronisms being in:
I wonder how much of white people (It seems like mostly white people, correct me if I’m wrong.) embracing anachronism as hip has to do with them consciously or subconsciously wishing for a time when they had even more privilege?
We know that the right longs for those “good” old days. I don’t think they are the only ones. There seem to be alot of brogressives around too.
You know, we have to do HR training every year on workplace harassment, and ‘sensitivity training’ (they call it something else now). I am going to save this picture, and bring to next year’s training as an example of how sexual harassment can be much more subtle than blatant hitting on your fellow employees.
So thanks, Mr. Dudebro Rosetta scientist guy, you are providing a great example of what not to do.
Gregory – good point, concisely expressed by @jenny_trout on Twitter:
And
So yeah.
Well after looking further into this there’s more clarity . It turns out that Taylor posted a picture of this shirt on Twitter about two years ago. Given that this was apparently taken in his office, it’s clear yesterday was not a once off, egregious lack of judgement on his part or on the part of the ESA. He’s worn the shirt at least twice in work, and quite possibly more that that, so I’d say the Agency definitely needs to investigate the work environment in its offices/labs and issue guidelines on appropriate attire, as the current ones clearly aren’t acceptable. And Taylor needs to be told that wearing an article of clothing to work which clearly objectifies women is highly inappropriate.
That being said, in a Twitter conversation yesterday between an astronomer colleague of Taylor’s and the astrophysicist Katherine Mack, the former mentioned that he didn’t believe Taylor was a misogynist, and claims this opinion was shared by his female colleagues.
Perhaps you should investigate that claim further before taking it at face value? Like, actually asking the female colleagues and all? Unless, you know, the word of a man is enough for you to believe.
@rq 302
Indeed. I should have qualified that. I’d much prefer to hear directly from one of his female colleagues. I’ve been trying to find any remarks from them but haven’t come across any yet.
But rq, men are obviously more qualified to speak on whether something is misogynist, because they’re not troubled by emotional reactions, and are thus able to be their usual, default-human objective selves about it, unlike we foolish ladies who are always bleating about being second-class citizens and other codswallop.
So yeah, if this guy spoke for all the women he knew in the workplace, and assured the interviewer that none of them had any problem with it, obviously that’s because they would confide in him about it if there was such a thing. Because he’s never actually hung a burning maleness-symbol on any woman’s lawn, so of course he’s not misogynist in any way, and therefore perfectly suited to recognise it.
One thing we know for sure: if it were a hostile, strongly misogynist workplace, definitely the women there would feel empowered to speak up about it to random guys in the office. Because Vulcans, amirite, bros?
I’m glad we finally have your fully reasoned opinion that a man representing a huge scientific agency’s amazing years-in-the-making accomplishment to the entire world could have been wearing a objectifying sexist shirt by mistake.
Do you think it’s only misogyny if you physically attack women? Of course wearing that shirt to work and to an important event is an act of misogyny, you hyperskeptical dumbass.
If you wear a shirt with cartoons of black stereotypes, you’re doing a racist act. You don’t have to have participated in lynchings.
My #306
Oops, in the first part that should read, “could NOT have been wearing”
If you are in a professional situation, your clothing should not look like an illustrated John Ringo novel. Period.
Well, that settles it. All of the info on microagressions and attitudes leading to actions and how that shirt is sexist have been completely canceled out by some guy saying he’s knows what women think.
Meanwhile all of the women who are telling you the shirt is sexist? We’ll just wait for a man to tell you what we probably think. Apparently that is when you will listen.
No, it is. What part of being on TV don’t you understand? Evidently, the whole concept.
Gee, more mansplainin’ by men. And not the women involved who might consider that shirt makes for an hostile environment in the workplace. Not making any case, except for you being an apologist for the bad conduct of MT. Remember your sexual harassment training, and who makes the judgements. Not you.
The opinions of his female colleagues are only of relevance if you are trying to assess his level of sexism when he is at work. We are assessing his level of sexism when he is on tv in front of the entire world.
More explicitly, we are assessing his level of sexism when he is on tv in front of the entire world serving as an ambassador of science. So women who are involved in science in the entire world get to weigh in.
you’re fucking deaf. seriously.
My best advice to you, and this WILL help you for the rest of your life…
FUCKING JUST LISTEN.
women told you, with perfect clarity, what was wrong with the SINGLE event, it did not need any more “evidence”, at all.
but you just fucking ignored them.
you ignored the very people who feel denigrated by the event.
you’re totally disconnected from what people are actually telling you.
As an analogy, it would be like someone who was in a car accident, knocked on your door for help, and you refused to help them without actually seeing the car crash first hand.
is any of this getting through to you?
please respond if you have the remotest inkling of what I am saying.
Even if they don’t mind, the shirt is still sexist.
Meanwhile it has been explained to you why women would be afraid to complain that the shirt is sexist or that her college is misogynist.
If I wore a shirt depicting Mammies, would you have to ask all my black co-workers if they considered me a racist or would you concede that I was being racist and that my racist actions were motivated by racist attitudes?
clueless motherfucker is clueless.
that was SARCASM, you dolt.
I don’t have a cluex4 big enough to make a dent in that thick head of yours.
pathetic.
Oh no, this is a complete and total referendum on the man himself. Before invoking the dread word “sexist”, we must consult a dozen character witnesses (men of good standing in the community, of course) and examine all his life choices up to this point. If we were to act too rashly, the consequences would be DIRE INDEED!
corvidd, #303
The irony here is that you’re being a huge misogynist piece of shit right here. All the women that exist are just one single unit to you. If some of them say they find something sexist, but then you find a few women that say they don’t, that totally cancels out the offense felt by the first group, right?
What an asshole.
corvidd
Some day one of you fuckwits will manage to answer the following question: Why would his female colleagues feel comfortable speaking up about that shirt? You just found that this is not the first time he’s worn it. If he wore it once 2 years ago I’m sure he’s worn it since. Clearly they work in an environment where this guy feels comfortable not only wearing this shirt but appearing on international television on an extremely important occasion wearing it. Male colleagues apparently feel comfortable speaking on their behalf. The internet is clearly full of jackasses like you who fall all over yourselves to defend this shit. WHY WOULD THEY FEEL SAFE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT IT?
Seriously. Imagine yourself in an environment where something is making you uncomfortable but also the prevailing attitude is clearly that the thing making you uncomfortable is just totes coolio. How likely are you to speak up? How likely are you to possibly risk your job but at the very least to almost certainly make your work environment even more uncomfortable by being the killjoy who whined about that thing that everyone thinks is such fun? Imagine that you’ve gotten to this position 100% aware that your presence is tolerated largely because you don’t rock the boat.
Holy shit, would I never where a shirt like this to work. Or anywhere. FFS, why is it so hard to realize that this was a stupid decision? Shirt could be taken as sexist? (It is, but in many people’s minds they aren’t sure). Gonna be on TV for historic event? Don’t where shirt.
Marylove @83
Just once, I’d like to hear that brought up and also hear how the CEO very quickly realized his mistake and made a genuine apology. He even went so far as to say “I answered that question completely wrong,” and “Maria’s advice was the right advice.”
Yes, he said something very stupid and clueless. He also did the opposite of digging in his heals. Countless people make ignorant and sexist statements all the time. The big thing about that story is the fact that he owned up to his ignorance and worked to correct it.
Corvidd, your continued refusal to acknowledge what or any other woman has said on the subject of misogyny in this thread is in itself an act of misogyny.
Like I said before, it’s pretty clear that your a sexist jackass yourself, and THAT, not some high-minded concern with standards of evidence or interpersonal fairness, is what is preventing you from drawing the obvious conclusion.
*you’re
Have you made any progress in being able to deal with FUCKING EMOTIONS, Corvidd? Because your obtuse and obstinate failure to actually engage with what anyone here is saying is making me REALLY ANGRY and I think it is unfair and destructive of you to go around causing unpleasant emotions in other people while professing an inability to deal with them yourself. If you’re that unprepared to process emotional content then you really ought to SHUT THE FUCK UP about sexism and misogyny, two topics which are inherently bound to provoke emotional responses in people.
To ICTHYIC @ #312
Well, I’m 300 comments in, but I have to say something about the first comment, because it really pisses me off and I’ve seen it elsewhere this morning. Yes, they are doing very important work, so our silly women’s feelings over his clothes are just so trivial, right? Fuck that noise!
jackie #291
I am too, and I also used to go swing dancing on a very regular basis. ( wooo syncopated rhythms) I have a closet full of amazing vintage dresses that are triumphs of dressmaking, and sexy as hell. Any guy who walked into the dance hall wearing that shirt would get major stink-eye from all of the dancers and the heavily tattooed rockabilly people. Not cool dude, soooooo not cool.
well, to his credit, he at least noted he possibly was being naive.
of course, that’s probably also just a line to avoid the slaughter the comment so richly deserves.
how many genuinely ignorant menfolks are there who would bother to comment here, on Pharyngula, at this point in time?
Sometimes they seem to stumble in from elsewhere. Pharyngula doesn’t tend to get as many Donnies as it used to, but sometimes.
@marilove #289 RE: It’s pretty pointless to invent
As you partially blockquoted part of my statement, I’m assuming you’re referring back to my comment. I was referring to corvidd making up excuses for Taylor.
It’s marilove, with an i,not a y, gmacs.
Yeah, I know the CEO of Microsoft apologized, but he still made that incredibally terrible and sexist speach for the whole world to see and didn’t see any problem with it until AFTER the h, when it was pointed out to him. I’m glad he apologized but that’s pretty damn big proof that he never actually stopped to consider anything he was talking about, and I wonder what other weird shit he believes that he hasn’t bothered to analyze.
gog
I think I may have misread something. My apologies!
Cait
*pictures in mind – ooooOOOOoooo*
carlie
I may not be a physicist or a mathematician, but I looked into those fields before heading into chemistry (later – biology). I’m still (something of a) scientist, and what this guy did for the global, public image of science was not a service, never mind what he wears on a daily basis (in this instance – though if he is taken to wearing shirts like this one regularly, I would not want to be a colleague of his).
corvidd
Because his horrible public presentation (and acceptance of it by the public and by other colleagues) wasn’t enough to keep them from speaking out publicly? Yeah. I’m not surprised you’re not finding any remarks. You’re not likely to find any, unless you manage to infiltrate the super-secret women-conversation of his female colleagues over the next couple of days. I have no doubt at all that they’re talking about it – or, if they aren’t, they are rolling their eyes and mumbling “Not again, what an asssss…” to themselves.
I love the ‘research’ you have put into this. Soooo much easier to dig through old photos of Taylor than to draw conclusions from the information provided right under your nose. You’re so cute when you’re all skeptical like that!!!
A few posters have commented on the contents of the tweet :
I mentioned yesterday that I wanted to hear from his female colleagues to find about his behaviour at the EPA before I started labelling him in such visceral terms as “misogynist asshole” and “sexist pissant”. At the time I knew next to nothing about him aside from the fact that he was a lead scientist on the Rosetta mission and that he’d worn a highly inappropriate shirt to a massively publicised event. I’ve been looking out for any comments from them ( female colleagues ), and this indirect information is all I could find thus far. The exact wording was “I have corroboration from female colleagues.” I certainly haven’t drawn any final conclusions of their opinions based solely on this single tweet. Even if they were to state a belief that he wasn’t sexist, it still wouldn’t change my view that his actions were wrong. Yesterday, I only had his choice of clothing to go on. Now, I know that this isn’t the first time that he’s worn that objectifying shirt, and that he uses language like “She is sexy, but I never said she is easy”, in front of a wide public audience. So, given all that I’d say yes, he has been sexist in his behaviour.
@ SallyStrange
I’m looking back at what people have said throughout this thread, and from what I can see I’m broadly in agreement with much of it in that I believe Taylor’s acted :
1. Unprofessionally
2. Highly inappropriately
3. In a way that could discourage some women from entering STEM fields due to a perceived hostile work environment
I’ll add in a sexist manner to that list also.
clueless. git.
you should go now.
pitchforks are being readied.
The matter at hand isn’t whether you’re in broad agreement with the rest of us; it’s the nitpicking about whether or not Matt Taylor is a sexist, even in light of his behavior and attire. You seem to have struck every single sore spot possible, really.
What part of that is so hard to understand?!
corvidd @301:
This just means that women are not a monolith who all share the same opinion. Katherine Mack can believe what she likes. It doesn’t invalidate the concerns of women who say the shirt is sexist. Nor does it invalidate the complaints of women who say that choosing to wear such a shirt reflects on Taylor’s view of women.
I love (read: hate) your continued refusal to listen to the concerns of women in this very thread as if they’re not qualified to comment on institutionalized sexism.
My god, but you’re a willfully delusional sexist pissant.
Via carlie and made by some dude named Stephen Taylor, the value of non-verbal communication. And an example of how to show yourself as a cool, avant-garde, totally rad (seriously?) scientist.
Crap. I misread this:
My point remains largely unchanged though. It doesn’t matter if someone says that Taylor isn’t misogynist. It doesn’t matter if some women share that opinion (bc women are not a monolith). You, corvidd are choosing to value the opinions of those people, while dismissing the concerns of the women in this thread. Their concerns are not invalidated bc other people don’t agree with them.
You remain a willfully delusional sexist pissant.
Tony
Just to be clear, Katherine Mack is most likely the one agreeing that Taylor is a misogynist (I follow her on Twitter). It is the unnamed male colleague of Taylor’s who is insisting otherwise.
*ahem*
Crossed signals, Tony. :)
@Tony!
I don’t have any objection to women criticising Taylor for his behaviour, and I agree that if his female colleagues state that he’s not a misogynist then that in no way invalidates the complaints of women here, many of which, as I mentioned in my last post, I agree with.
corvidd,
A friendly word of advice: I suggest you do some major shutting the fuck up right about now. You should also read every single post on this thread to help you get a hint why continued output from you might be counterproductive.
OH GOOD! A man, corvidd has spoken and ‘splained to us that another man has “acted in a sexist manner”. Well, that settles that! A man is in agreement with us! We must now celebrate! Clearly we wimmins need a man to figure sexism out for us. We wimmins just have no idea what sexism is without a man to tell us!
You couldn’t just see the evidence presented clearly before you, and the many women telling you why this was sexist, oh no. You had to argue with us and then “do your own investigation” even though your “investigation” is a fucking repeat of EVERYTHING WE HAVE ALREADY SAID, and what was ALREADY CLEARLY EVIDENT before you even started in on your “but but but maybe it’s not really sexist, I need more info!” line of bullshit.
But hey! We’re only silly little wimmins. How are we supposed to know what sexism is unless a man confirms it with us? Oh boy! You think he’s “acted in a sexist manner!” How great for you. Here is a cookie for noticing the MOTHERFUCKING OBVIOUS.
(I also note how wiffly-waffly that is; no, he didn’t “act in a sexist manner”; he IS sexist.)
corvidd:
Talk less. Listen more. Leave your biases at the door.
Tony the Rhyming Queer Shoop:
Talk less, listen more;
Leave you biases at the door.
QFT, as it were.
marilove
Well, I’m certainly relieved to know I was right all along. Time to give the ol’ brain a good, pink, fluffy rest now! :P
@corvidd
If somebody acts in a bigoted manner, is it wrong to attribute bigotry to their character? Particularly if said person has yet to come out and say “My behavior was deplorable, and I will do better in the future to be more sensitive.”
You’re still being waaaaay too fucking charitable, really.
Yeah, because you want to go down on record being the woman who objected while still having to deal not only with all the assholes on the internet who think you’re an uppity b**** who needs to be put in her place, but also with that very particular asshole at your workplace in an environment in which the management obviously shares his idea that this is totally OK for him to do.
Do you have any clue with how much sexist bullshit we just go along, smile along and laugh because the alternative is godsdamn frightening and comes with serious consequences?
I don’t know at how many sexist jokes I have laughed at work, or smiled, or at least not said anything because they come from my adult male students and I need to be nice to those people because if I’m not they don’t come back and then I’m out of work. I’m not laughing at their misogynist bullshit because I find it funny and have no problem with it. I laugh along because they basically pay me to do so.
Hi all,
I’m a female astrophysicist (a postdoc). I don’t know Matt Taylor, I don’t work at ESA, and I don’t work in this sub-field. Still, yesterday morning when I woke up I immediately checked my news and Twitter feeds to see if the Rosetta/Philae separation had gone well. I was so excited that it had. What an amazing day for science!
Then I saw the shirt, and heard about some of Matt Taylor’s verbal comments.
And then I just wanted to go back to bed, curled up into a little ball. It’s yet another message that I’m not really welcome. All that science I’m doing? It’s irrelevant; nobody will cite my work anyway because I’m just a girl. All those colleagues I work with? They probably just forget about my work and talk about my boobs after I leave the room. That female student I’m mentoring? I should tell her to get out while she’s still young enough to build a career doing something else, in a field where the culture is gender neutral so it’s easy to pick out and avoid the few sexist assholes. You know, one of those magical career fields where everyone works 9 to 5 and makes tons of money and loves their job and no one is underrepresented and everyone has a critical mass of advocates for whatever categories they fall into.
I’ve joined a little in the discussions online but not much, because I’m just so tired of this. I’m furious too, but it’s trapped under a thick blanket of exhaustion. And I also feel like my anger isn’t allowed somehow; like I shouldn’t express it because it’s “unhelpful” to the debate, like only the gentle, positive guiding approach to pointing out sexism is going to avoid disapproval from most of my peers. Partly this is because one of my colleagues (more senior than I am) is very outspoken about sexism and I have heard what people say about her behind her back, and what people who’ve never met of her think of her. I don’t have a permanent job so I can’t really afford to take that kind of risk, and that in itself is part of the problem.
So I wanted to say thank you. Really thank you for these comments. Thank you for being direct and cogent and for calling out both the trolls and the snakes in the grass. And for using the phrase “warthog-faced whimpering pustule”. I feel like I owe every other woman in my field an apology for not jumping in too, but I’m just not sure I have it in me right now. So thank you for fighting the good fight on my behalf.
corvidd
one more addition to what Tony! and Al Dente and others have advised above: you need to be open to having a deeply held value (in this case, that what you consider as “being reasonable” doesn’t matter a single bit, and that you are right now WRONG) completely turned on its head.
I used to think I was very reasonable about how I viewed sexism. I learned otherwise. I suggest you give it a try.
This was completely inappropriate and did take away from my enjoyment of the news of their fantastic feat. I am certainly stunned that there were not rules in place to keep this shirt out of the office ( you could not wear it at my workplace for sure) but moreso by the fact that no one thought to stop him before the cameras rolled.
My work place, for better or worse, has a dress code. My sister’s office does as well …they aren’t allowed to wear cargo pants for some odd reason. Too many pockets offend maybe?
Thank heaven we finally have a verdict from the MISPWOSO.
marilove: Now, will you make corvidd a sammich? You know, since ‘e’s mansplained just how awesome it is that ‘e mostly agrees with ya and all.
(There ain’t a snark tag big enough…..)
corvidd:
Here is some homework for you. Throughout this thread, you’ve had multiple women tell you that they found Taylor’s shirt to be misogynistic. You had multiple women tell you *why* they found the shirt to be misogynistic. Yet you felt you needed more information. You felt you couldn’t “lurch toward judgement”.
Your homework:
Examine your beliefs about women. Why do you not believe women when they tell you they find something sexist or misogynistic? Do you consider the opinions of women to be worthless, or worth less than men? Why do you need corroboration from others before believing women when they say that something is misogynistic? Why were you so quick to defend Taylor and dismiss the concerns of women?
As part of your homework:
• learn what sexual objectification is and why it is harmful.
• learn what the term ‘chilly climate’ means and how it affects women in the workforce
• learn what ‘institutionalized sexism’ means and how it affects the ability of women to participate in society
Bonus points:
Why do you feel that clothing does not reflect the opinions and beliefs of an individual (note: clothing doesn’t *always* do this, but it can, and in the case of Taylor, it does)?
Why is judging someone based on their clothes-clothing that expresses a demeaning view of women-somehow bad?
What!? You have spent an entire day objecting to the criticism you clueless git. You even went so far as to research what his male colleagues opinion might be, while ignoring his female colleagues. Katherine Mack is being very professional about this, but her twitter feed does contain a clue or two:
Yes Alice and Katie, it is a problem that so many people go to great lengths to ignore blatant misogyny .
Julie @348
Probably the person who wrote the dress code thought cargo pants looked unprofessional. In my office nobody is allowed to wear jeans or t-shirts for that reason.
Astro Barb
Don’t feel bad – I only feel okay (and not brilliant, just okay!) doing this because (a) I don’t work directly with anyone of that sexist calibre; (b) I’m not in astrophysics and (c) I can hide behind my computer screen in a far-away land of which nobody takes much notice. Were the threat much more direct to me, I have no doubt that I would hunker down and do my work in silent acquiescence. Kudos to you for being in the field and sticking it out. Your anger is allowed and it is well-deserved by those who strut their little peacock parade in public like this. If it helps, feel free to jump in the fray here, if nowhere else, as a form of catharsis. :)
You’re brave and strong just for doing what you do, always remember that.
+++
Incidentally, the interviewer was a woman – I wonder what the response would have been, had she requested Taylor remove that shirt before going to a live interview with him? I also wonder if, were I in her position, I would have the guts to make that kind of request at that moment…
Astro Barb @346:
Thank you for speaking up.
Btw, I don’t think you owe anyone anything. If you don’t have the spoons for jumping in, there is nothing wrong with not speaking up. Self-care is very important.
You’re welcome! And thank you for being who you are. Not everyone needs to be an outspoken activist. I work in construction, so I totally get it about laughing along with those jokes. And also the contemptuous remarks I’m sure get made behind my back anyway when I do speak up about sexism and racism. It’s all good.
Simply taking good care of yourself in a hypermasculine culture that devalues both women and the entire concept of self-care is a revolutionary act.
I note that Corvidd continues to completely ignore the fact that I have accurately pointed out that, as a person who has self-confessed to having a difficult time processing emotion in debate, he has a moral obligation to SHUT THE FUCK UP about sexism and misogyny, since these are subjects where an inability to process emotion means that you are literally unqualified to discuss it.
I’d go with hyperskeptic pissant instead of delusional myself.
not like we haven’t seen it before.
I posted this in the Lounge, but I’ll do it here again, since it’s relevant for the topic.
For anyone in the Copenhagen area (i.e. Denmark), there’s a one-day event on December 1st; Gender Equity in the Natural Sciences. Registration deadline is November 25th. Information can be found here.
I’m surprised we haven’t had any “You Americans are a bunch of prudes. European women are too mature and at ease with sexuality to be upset with a shirt like that.” style comments yet.
astrobarb
Welcome to pharyngula! The only place in the world where I can say exactly what I think about sexism without fear of reprisal. My usual response to people who gossip about the evil feminist b*****ch (yep…that’s me!) is to point at them (important non-verbal communication*) and calmly say something like “OMG, the words you use for women trying to do their job! If she were male you would call her bold, or decisive.” which leads to grumbling, but they do learn to avoid sexist slurs. IME the engineers are both my biggest allies, and often as clueless as corvidd. *I learned this trick from a professional dominatrix. It is f-ing amazing how men shut up when a women points at them.
Corvidd
And then comes your “but”, about the subject. Typical of all those who don’t want to appear like they have problems listening to women, but do have problems listening to women.
Or, they would just shut the fuck up, which you can’t seem to do, proving my point, and the points of those complaining about your lack of cogent points about not listening to women, and mansplainin’ instead.
#26 markkernes comes the closest.
1. It was unprofessional because it was sexist.
2. It was inappropriate because it was sexist.
3. Discouraging women from entering STEM fields due to a perceived hostile work environment is sexism.
In conclusion: fuck you.
For those concerned the shirt is going to be seen widely around the world: like the BBC, the Australian news has shown Katherine Mack and quoted other members of the team. That shirt has meant Matt Taylor is unseen and unheard.
It is entirely possible that our very conservative media saw the boobies and thought immediately of The CXhildren, but end result is the same. Not a peep has been seen of Mr. “I am a Sexist Arsehole” Taylor.
A small silver lining.
corvidd, #330
I’ve been looking out for comments from you and thus far, all the information I have received leads me to conclude that you’re a stupid, sexist piece of shit.
Oh, this one’s good: sexism in science as a toxic miasma men are not equipped to detect.
Also, all points within relevant to this discussion.
Tony, #351
I have a feeling corvidd’s gonna skip that class altogether, Tony.
rq, #368
This part stood out to me:
Strange, their reaction to Rose Eveleth the same way they react to Anita Sarkeesian.
Could it be that this is actually about ethics in science journalism?
Saad
I’m going to call it, and call you psychic.
Aw, I should have edited out the slurs from that article quote. Looks like the censor ate my post. =/
So, the artist who made the shirt is over the moon (or comet, as the case may be) about him wearing her handiwork at a televised event:
http://www.facebook.com/ellyprizeman/posts/10154820845765191
For shame. Someone needs to talk some sense into her.
rq
I hope what went through her mind is something like ” OMG, what kind of a creep wears that shirt? I’m going to broadcast this idiot to the entire world! bwahahahahahahah!”
We’re so puny and empty and shallow that you just had to come and comment again at us. I’d try saying something snide, but you’re just so goddamned boring that it’s not worth even the minimal effort.
You can’t be a victim. Rather, you are the oppressor, with a puny ego that can’t stand competition from those not like them, be it color or gender, because you know you don’t have a abilities to compete in a truly egalitarian society. Without your privilege, you are mincemeat. So all you can do is oppress others by various means. Pitiful, very pitiful, stupid and lacking both morality and empathy.
aaaaand forgot to close my tag. Oh well. Back to work!
groot/groo:
Fuck off.
You’re going to get banned again, bc PZ hates when people do shit like you’ve done. He kicked you out, which means he doesn’t want you here, so go the fuck away.
Saad @369:
I suspect you’re correct.
Ah, le victime has returned, the poor bébé. Clean up in aisle 3, please!
Pitiful display of an epsilon male in action folks. Can’t compete with the power structure, can’t compete with ideas, so it has to fling poo and shriek at the females and children to maintain an semblance of self-worth. Nothing but noise and whines to anybody who understands the situation, which excludes them.
Some farewell message. Now you’re just lingering in the doorway, groot. Do the polite thing and just leave – please close the door behind you.
groot:
Seriously, why are you doing this?
You’re not wanted here by the blog host. What is your purpose here? Would you attempt to keep coming back into the home of someone who kicked you out? Do you think you’ve got something wonderfully insightful to add? Did you think this thread was in dire need of your shitwittery? Are you that fucking full of yourself that you’d keep commenting somewhere that you’re clearly not welcome?
I guess a trolling troll’s gotta troll.
Tony
You got that right.
groot
Actually, when Tony says ‘fuck off’, you fuck off, that’s the point. And preferably don’t come back, either.
+++
Sending monitor note.
I like how a lot of comments directly call him sexist or an ass-hole, while failing to research even the most basic things, like for example that the shirt was a HANDMADE BIRTHDAY GIFT from a FEMALE FRIEND.
But yeah, keep telling yourselves he’s the ass-hole.
Here’s the female friend’s tweet about it.
https://twitter.com/ellypriZeMaN/status/532927131098300416
But to raise to that level, you have to stop trolling, acting stupid, and embrace feminism. You don’t have it in you, you are so pathetic.
And how very full and deep you must be. Full of shit, that is.
I just can’t wait until we get to this part of your script. Hurry it up:
To troll or not to troll, that is the question….
@ Tony – 351
This is my last comment ( much to most people’s relief I’d imagine ! ) . As when any person criticises my behaviour/opinions/beliefs I’ll look at their criticisms and make any necessary changes. I’ve already amended my opinion of both the ESA , Taylor and the implications of his behaviour based on a combination of investigation and listening to other’s opinions.
Anyway, all the best.
@groot I’m not talking about you, I’m talking about the scientist.
Aeder Liliaceae
A hand-made birthday gift that has NO PLACE IN THE WORKPLACE. Birthday gifts, handmade or not, are not automatically exempt from sexism, racism, etc.
Also, the fact that a woman made it? Sweet, he has a cool woman friend with whom he probably shares all kinds of in-jokes, and she made him a shirt. That is a private matter, between the two of them, and he can wear that shirt at home as much as he likes – the moment he put that shirt on in public, at work, on the global stage, he made it public, and he forgot to think about what effect that has on all the other women he doesn’t know out there, especially the ones who are in science. Way to be selfish. Still makes him an asshole. Oh, and that shirt.
So thanks, but your arguments are invalid in this case.
(I’m glad at least two people get a lot of joy out of shitting on thousands of others. Must be nice to live so obliviously to the world surrounding.)
Awww. This is not how Deep Trolls™ with Full And Meaningful Lives™ would act. How pathetic.
Aeder Liliaceae @396:
I love it when someone gives me permission to call out sexism and misogyny. Thanks buddy.
Read the fucking thread you unmitigated shitwad. People have explained the problems with the shirt. It doesn’t matter who made the shirt. In this situation, what matters is that Taylor chose to wear a shirt-onethat sexually objectifies women, remember-in front of the world for a momentous occasion. It has sent a message to many women that they aren’t welcome in science. It sends the message to women that this is a Menz Zone. If you had the first fucking clue what you’re talking about you’d know this, but you’re as clueless as every other d00d in this thread.
****
groot:
I was telling you to fuck off you shitstain.
groot @397:
Decided to showcase your condescendingly sexist side I see.
<blockquoteI like how a lot of comments directly call him sexist or an ass-hole, while failing to research even the most basic things, like for example that the shirt was a HANDMADE BIRTHDAY GIFT from a FEMALE FRIEND.
That doesn’t matter.
If I get a button from a minority friend that says “F*** the N*******”, and then I wear that button on a globally televised event, am I an asshole?
corvidd @401:
I was hoping for “I think I’ll take some time to reexamine my beliefs, bc it’s clear I am biased and prejudiced against women and I want to be a better person.”
Tony
Lower the bar. :P
Oh, you are psychic and therefore know that we have failed to do basic research? Just as ironic sexism is still sexism, sexist shirt does not stop being sexist because a woman made it. If you really had done your research, you would also know that Matt Taylor was the best man at Elly Prizeman’s wedding. She made him that ugly, awful shirt as a thank you, and since that is what she want’s to do for a living, of course she is thrilled he wore it. That doesn’t erase the fact that Matt Taylor is a harmful sexist douchebro. I bet he has a fedora to go with his ironic sexism.
@rq I’m still waiting for the evidence that wearing a shirt depicting scantly clad females somehow oppresses females. I’m pretty sure I’ll have to wait a lot of time. Also offending someone is not oppression.
Some other people elsewhere pointed out how there’s a real discriminatory bias in science, but curiously enough wearing tasteless clothes that show sexualized females in public events were not among the problems.
—————————————————————————————————————–
@Tony! The Queer Shoop I never understood how people on the internet expect me to believe that they have a point or are behind a just cause when they are quick to hurl insults at others and condemn them, sometimes without bothering to confront them or letting explain themselves.
And by the way, objectification =/= sexualization
If you argue against sexualization you’re not different than a puritanical religious nut who thinks all women should be covered and never depicted in lewd ways.
To objectify implies that you remove agency, and there’s no way to show the characters have agency in a t-shirt, so it’s a pretty bad argument.
groot @415:
That’s nice.
Her tweets don’t change the fact that Taylor made the choice to wear that sexist shirt (remember, it sexually objectifies women, which is a huge problem in society), which reflects on his sexism and opinion of women. Your support for him and refusal to treat women with respect also point to your sexism. The fact that you don’t believe the women in this thread who are telling you how misogynistic the shirt is speaks volumes.
Believe me, the baseless contempt you feel is far outstripped by my disdain for you.
@nikolai Your comment is funny. The shirt is not directly attacking anyone. And no, just because something offends you doesn’t mean it’s attacking you. Your entire argument is a straw-man.
Aeder Liliaceae
First, read the thread, since your points about the offense and oppression of women in science have been addressed.
Also, the discriminatory bias in science has been addressed here, ad nauseum, and it does include such things as wearing a tasteless, women-objectifying shirt in public, as a representative of a large scientific organization.
Google ‘chilly climate in STEM’, while you’re at it, and you’ll see that wearing this shirt falls right into the category of being unwelcoming to women, if not downright harrassment (because sexualized images of anyone do not belong in the workplace, period – the sexualization, puritanical or not, belongs in one’s private life).
Those women on that shirt have been placed there as decoration – for the titillation of straight men. Yes, I would say that this implies a lack of agency, because they’re fucking decorations.
And it’s not about oppressing
femaleswomen, in this case, so much as making them into worthless decorations rather than valued members of the scientific community. About being an unwelcoming asshole in a field that already pushes women out of it. Did you read Astro Barb’s comment above? And all the other comments from women in the sciences, regarding this shirt? You should.It’s not a t-shirt.
Me too. Shows that they’re paying attention.
Your Ferengi language suggests you probably wouldn’t understand anyway.
You’re projecting. I never said it was attacking me. I never said the shirt was directly attacking anyone. But wearing it still makes him an asshole.
Your entire reply is a strawman, assnugget.
“I never said it offends me”, I mean, obviously.
So I’ll say it: I’m offended on behalf of, sure, but whether or not I am offended makes no difference. Wearing that shirt makes him an asshole.
groot @415
Pardon us, asswipe, you must have mistaken us for people who give a fuck about your contempt.
Aeder @416:
1. You’re the one who barged into a thread spewing the same shit that’s been discussed for over 400 comments. There are people in this thread who have explained-over and over again-how the shirt is sexist and misogynistic. I didn’t feel the need to do so again with you d00dbro, so I chose to insult you. This is a rude blog (this is truly truthful, read the commenting rules). If you don’t like it, you can leave at any time.
2. I don’t have any problem with women who wish to express their sexuality. I think it’s healthy for people to do so. That shirt is a different story. This isn’t a case of a woman choosing to express her sexuality. It’s about a man choosing to wear a shirt that treats women like sexual objects. It treats women like sexual objects for the male gaze. And Taylor chose to wear that shirt during a momentous occasion…a time for celebration of all the people involved in this accomplishment. Women are not objects existing for male pleasure. I guess Taylor didn’t get that message. Nor did he think twice about wearing a shirt that displays that message to the world.
I’m arguing against that sexual objectification. It’s clear you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, nor the extent to which the problem of sexual objectification affects women in society.
Talk less. Read more. Check your biases at the door.
Aeder Liliaceae
“Oppression is violence, even if not physical. Sexism is oppression.”
That shirt is sexist. Draw your own conclusions.
And you seriously think this makes a difference how? Why on earth would you think this is somehow a mitigating factor? Sadly, the fact that it’s handmade, the fact that it was a gift, and the fact that it was given by a woman friend doesn’t make the shirt any less of a slap in the face to all the pupils and students and scientists and people who watched that broadcast and saw Taylor’s visual declaration that science is not for them; that some of the highest-level scientific work currently being done on planet Earth is being done in a workplace where that kind of ugly shit is considered just fine. Ugly shit that would be considered solid grounds for a formal complaint in a great many workplaces. Yeah, great inclusivity there!
Who needs oppression for it to be sexually harassing, and another micro-aggression against women. All it needs to be is inappropriate for the circumstances (it was), and found offensive by women, to which there is plenty of evidence in the form of testament on this thread alone. Anybody who has taken sexual harassment in the workplace training and actually paid attention knows that. So, the question is, why don’t YOU know the obvious, unless you are just trolling?
Aeder lilacea
Oh FFS, you are an idiot who doesn’t understand that his shirt is covered in women being depicted as sexual objects. Take your hipster whinging over to AVFM. I’m sure they will be in complete agreement with your ignorant ideas on sexism.
Thank you, Nerd, well-said.
Aeder Liliaceae, #396
I’m glad you pointed this out. A woman thinks it’s not sexist, therefore the women who do must be wrong. Because women are like fucking Sauron’s army. They immediately crumble to the ground en masse as soon as one woman says something contradicting other women, because they’re all linked by estrogen or something.
Did you know women can also abuse other women?! Take that domestic abuse activists!
You’re a stupid fucking idiot.
@rq I will agree with you on the fact that sexualized images do not belong in the work place. And that’s about it.
I googled the term you asked me to, it leads to articles mixing unrelated issues (a PR agent with an history of behaving like a child getting fired getting mixed with more legitimate claims) or even worse to articles basically blaming it on the inability of women to overcome stereotypes because of psychology (the kind of conclusion that implies that women somehow lack the ability to go against expectations). And even the best results point to specific hurdles that either can be solved or cannot by their very own nature (both cases meaning that all that’s left is to modify things that won’t be modified until people specifically request it). None mentioned shirts or images as issues. Did you have a specific link in mind?
Maybe, just maybe, an analogy will help you get your head out of your ass….
Somebody wears a t-shirt with strips of bacon or BBQ pork ribs on, or something like that. (This doesn’t directly affect people, so we don’t tend to speak up about such things.) Say what you will about vegetarianism, but such a person person clearly considers it okay to depict pigs (or what’s left of them, when he abstracts away the stuff that doesn’t matter to him) as food-stuff, instead of as animals with the ability to suffer, to have lives of their own which don’t depend on how they taste to you. Their instrumental value to you as food is what’s being depicted. On top of that, you somehow thought this statement was a good one to make in a professional fucking environment at your fucking job. But the point is that it’s no different when it comes to women as sex-objects. Now, pigs aren’t agents in the full sense that a human being is, that much is true, but women are. So what you’re saying here is a distinction without a difference.
Also, seeing a problem with this sort of thing can come in many different forms. It’s simply false that people who object to it all do it on exactly the same grounds. To go back to the analogy, some say you shouldn’t eat meat for “puritanical religious” reasons, some for ethical reasons, some because they think it’s unhealthy, and so on. You’re just plain ignorant or stupid or dishonest if you say they’re all the same. Stop being so fucking ignorant or stupid or dishonest.
Besides, you gain nothing out of this. I can’t imagine what you think is being threatened here by criticizing some asshole’s shirt, but give it a fucking rest.
Had a feeling we’d have to get out the hand puppets with this one.
Some advice to our new friends. All that your continued posting is doing is keeping this thread going. If you shut up most of us will soon move on to some other thread. After all someone is likely even as I write this doing something that PZ will find worth condemning.
And does anyone else find it amusing that groot, in his first post to this thread, seemed to be indicating he thinks PZ never used the Red Letters of Death until he came along?
No, you will have to agree, because it is the law here in the US, that what a woman finds offensive in the workplace can be considered harassment, especially if the behavior is repeated for minor issues that the offender will not resolve, using by changing their behavior. One time major issues are a different story, and can lead to immediate termination of the offender.
@ nikolai
You is a pronoun used to describe someone that is being spoken to, or to describe a hypothetical person or group of people.
——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
@Tony! The Queer Shoop Feel free to be rude then. Bear in mind that it makes easier to dismiss everything you say as angry rambling though.
——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
@Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls Already addressed the workplace issue. The shirt shouldn’t be a problem outside of it though.
——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
@Tethys No idea what AVFM is.
Aeder Liliaceae
I like how you think showing the shirt was made by a woman proves its not sexist. What exactly is it about being female that you think precludes having biases about women?
Aeder Liliaceae
I’d like to point out to you the sheer idiocy in this statement. Do you think that if you don’t pay attention to something, it can’t be correct? Do you think that reality is dependent upon your willingness to believe something? What, practically speaking, are you expecting to convey by saying this? How self-important do you have to be to think that announcing that you refuse to listen until the speaker is properly deferential to you accomplishes anything other than making you look like a blithering fool?
@Seven of Mine: Shrieking Feminist Harpy
Nothing. But I also don’t believe that something having fictional scantly-clad women on it is inherently sexist.
It could be interpreted as sexist in the context of using it during a live conference or in the workplace, but it’s not the shirt that’s inherently wrong.
That day, at that time, it was his workplace. And if not the workplace, what the fuck are you arguing about? Trolling is the only thing you are doing.
There is only one place for that shirt. Private parties, and household use. It should not be worn in public.
@Seven of Mine: Shrieking Feminist Harpy
It’s not idiotic when you take into account that as much as feminists want it, their views on what constitutes sexism are not mainstream by any margin. If you’re trying to convince people in general that something is bad, you don’t do it by yelling “You’re just a bunch of mentally impaired retards who don’t get it”.
It merely means that if everyone is treated like that merely because of differences in how they interpret stuff or even because they ignore a crucial fact to completely understand, you will never convince them to support that position.
And if you’re not trying to convince me that I’m wrong, then why bother replying to me?
Aeder Liliaceae and groot,
No offense intended, but you are clearly outclassed here, and obviously haven’t (yet) experienced the consciousness raising that would lead you to accept the radical notion that women are people too (otherwise know as feminism 101).
We suggest that you give the output a rest, and try to carefully read and understand what others have been telling you. There is much wisdom and truth being spat here and unfortunately right now you seem blind to much of it.
Sure, maybe. If you ignore the context. But in the particular context the shirt was worn? Choosing that shirt to wear to work on that day was grossly unprofessional, and unapologetically sexist.
<blockquote cite="Aeder Liliaceae"You is a pronoun used to describe someone that is being spoken to, or to describe a hypothetical person or group of people.
So your aim was to talk to a hypothetical opponent, and you accused me of attacking a strawman?
My apologies for crediting you with intelligence.
Aeder lilicea
Yes, it seems there are many things that you are ignorant about. Here, let me google that for you.
Citation needed MRA fuckwit. Your unevidenced opinion is dismissed by the old adage.
@We are Plethora
Or maybe it’s just that I’m neither American nor European, and that feminism here is radically different from what you’re used to (feminists here vandalize buildings and physically assault/sexually harass the people that oppose them).
So there’s no way any University will ever have a Women’s Studies equivalent or that anyone moderate will ever want to approach feminists.
I am guessing the Aeder Lilicea studied feminism with Rush Limbaugh. Apparently The Colbert Report, The Gurdian, and Beyonces thirty foot high letters at the VMA’s are not mainstream media.
Are you telling us you live in Bizarro world? That would explain the abject stupidity of this claim.
nikolai:
(off topic)
<blockquote>quoted text</blockquote>
will produce
Any of the idiots on this thread claiming that Matt Taylor will be remembered for his technical achievements can do a quick Gooogle News search and see myriad articles lambasting him in mainstream media sites: CNN, Washington Post, Business Insider, etc., multiple British papers, and even the local FauxNews station out of Denver. This dude is getting roasted. What a moron.
Yep, and PZ was right.
@Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls
Citation? How about the fact that feminism exists in the first place? How about the piles upon piles of studies trying to demonstrate how sexism is real and what are their causes? What about the essays trying to show how certain behaviours are sexist? What about women earning between 90% (it can be as low as 77% if there’s other factors like race, education,etc.) of what men earn in the US? Would the gap exists if such views were mainstream? Why would you advocate a point of view if it’s already mainstream?
Do you see many groups these day advocating that the earth is round and that it orbits the sun? No, you don’t because the majority accepts it as a fact.
Where exactly do you live then? And if you realize that this blog and America’s and Europe’s definition of Feminism is radically different than yours why do you continue to argue against the definition of feminism you understand? And if it’s the definition of America and Europe how on Earth can it not be mainstream? And why, if you don’t understand Feminism, do you argue like one of the dime-a-dozen, bargain basement MRA assholes who occasionally roll in here to get their “Banned by the wicked feminists” merit badge?
Aeder Liliaceae @ 445
Do you know what a non-sequitur is? It’s what you just did. “It’s it’s not idiotic for me to refuse to pay attention to things that are said angrily because feminist views aren’t mainstream.”
Well, then, it’s a good thing nobody did that. First, nobody here would have called you such an ableist slur under any circumstance. Secondly, nobody would have insulted you without also making an argument. That you refuse to pay attention to the substance just because there was an insult included is YOUR issue and yours alone.
That’s just factually untrue. There are tons of people around Pharyngula who were convinced to listen precisely because we were so harsh. Had we been more polite, those people would have found us easier to ignore. The anger we express is what many people have needed to stop and try to understand where that anger comes from.
We’re not necessarily trying to convince you. I doubt you’d engage with anything that didn’t fit the script you came here with regardless of how polite anyone was. But for every person who comments here, there are probably 10 people lurking who may be convinced.
Nerd said
It’s nice to be able to agree with you Nerd. Once I got a laugh out of a t-shirt that said “Bring Back Hairy Pussies” so I bought it. I actually imagined myself wearing it around town (isn’t it a good cause after all?). But once I got it home, put it on and looked in the mirror, I realized I’d be too embarrassed to even wear it alone, asleep and with the lights out.
are you part snail I wonder?
Here’s a small sample of what happens every-time the feminists are done with their conventions and go to vandalize churches:
Also sprach ComicBookGuy.
you mean the ones where she talks about how excited she is that her horrific shirt got public press?
those?
yeah….
Citation mother fucking needed, or your claim is dismissed without evidence. And, by implication to a liar and bullshitter, everything you say is subjected to extreme skepticism. Not where you want to be, if you want us to believe you are telling the truth….Put up, or shut the fuck up.
relevancy is not your strong suit in logic.
suggest you trade your logic module in for a new one.
Aeder Liliaceae @450,
So because you live in a different place and because other people (who also call themselves feminists) behave differently American and European feminists do, that somehow means you are unable or unwilling to learn the basic tenants of true feminism that would help you to understand this shirt-debacle in the proper context?
Nobody here is setting buildings on fire so we’re confused why you even brought that up? Attempt at a detail, we thinks.
@Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls
In addition to my previous video, this is how cities look after feminists are done with their protests
goats on fire?
yeah, we need a cleanup in isle 3. too much troll dung.
@We are Plethora
Where would I even start? A proper course here would help a lot rather than reading random stuff on the internet with varying degrees of accuracy.
Aeder Liliaceae @460 and 466
What’s your evidence these women are feminists? Your word that they are is not evidence.
who fucking cares? the ass is just trolling for lolz.
the thread apparently has reached the dregs, and the trolls have come to see if there’s any cheese to be had.
Can you give a single example of a sexism issue in science that by definition can’t be solved?
And you don’t recognize that as a cognitive error on your end? Being angry doesn’t preclude being right. In fact, in serious issues like these, I’d say that not being angry is an indication that you don’t really care about the issue. Vulcans aren’t real, you know.
Yeah, the logo on that video says god is here and I can’t quite make out what the women are chanting other than your god is trash. All of it is trash? Que es lixo?
Aeder Liliaceae,
A man who uses sexualised language to describe the successful conclusion of a two-decades-plus scientific project involving at least 2,000 people is an ass. A man who does that on live television to half the world and while wearing that shirt is an attention-seeking baboon.
A workplace where there are apparently no standards of behaviour, no standards of dress for public occasions, no media training, no diversity training. no-one senior willing to him check him, no ability to predict the effects of social actions and where senior management has not caught up with the idea that women are people is, by definition, an environment with major problems. First among them, the problem of sexism.
They may do good science at ESA but on every other test they fail.
Why do you feel the need to make excuses and abuse us? I’m not a scientist but many here are. They know that basic social skills are part of the job – in a team of 2,OOO even more so.
And this man is supposed to be a leader? Come on! Pull the other one! We were having a fairly civil conversation in which every half-baked point you raise has been addressed – several times if you’d bothered to read the thread.
I don’t know why you imagine we need your brand of contrarianism. I’ll tell you a secret – we don’t.
Oh, and that shirt is a mess – it needs ironing and the right sleeve is set in none too well.
Aborto légal ya ! Ni putas ni sumisas ! Estado proxenete ! Ni Dios Ni Amo ! Iglesia de Mierda ! Religion = Misoginia ! Ejercito lesbico de Libéracion Social ! Ni Dios Ni Patron Ni Marido ! Iglesia Basura !
So, Lilly Boy, you are from Argentina.
Aeder Liliaceae @469,
Pretty much anything Anita Sarkeesian has to say recently would be a good place to start. It’s focused on sexism and misogyny in video games but most of what she says is universally applicable. Her stuff is thoroughly researched, relevant, recent, well produced, and hip.
Can you stop posting irrelevant shit and actually address the points being made to you by all these feminists in this very thread?
Or did you think you could just change the topic like that and get away with it? I’m afraid you’re not nearly clever enough to do that, you bigoted little turd.
Get back to trying to defend this asinine opinion you spewed earlier:
#396
@Al Dente
Are you trying to use the “No True Scotsman” fallacy? It’s a pro-abortion feminist meeting. I can provide more evidence but unless you understand the language it would be useless.
In case you want the sources anyway:
Local newspaper speaking about the incidents where they spray-painted the group trying to defend the church by forming a human shield:
http://www.unoentrerios.com.ar/pais/Incidentes-en-el-encuentro-de-mujeres–20131126-0007.html
A list of the workshops they have, note the word “feminismo” and “feminista”:
http://www.politicaymedios.com/politica/Se_viene_el_29__Encuentro_Nacional_de_Mujeres_Salta_2014_20141007132851.php
Oh no! GRAFFITI! Le gasp! Shock horror!
Yes those women are feminists and I support them, I think they’re really cool. But they are not all the feminists. You don’t have to tag churches or go topless to be a feminist. It does help draw attention to your cause.
Excuses, liar and bullshitter.
And your problem is? It is their bodies, not that of the church members.
Nice nonsequitur, but, as usual, doesn’t prove your point. You have no point, other than you object to feminism, and who the fuck who thinks cares about your ignorant and stupid views of feminism.
Put up or shut the fuck up.
You could start by listening to the feminists in this thread. You know, the women and men you’ve dismissed out of hand. You could watch one of Sarkeesian’s videos. You could look through the archives of this blog for other posts tagged “Feminism, Gender, and Equality”. You could google “Feminism 101” which is a phrase that was mentioned to you a little bit ago. You could have started by asking “I don’t have a good idea of what feminism is, can someone help explain it to me?” You could have taken your realization that your understanding of Feminism and our meaning for Feminism are not the same thing as the queue to pay attention and ask questions.
It’s not too late. You can start now. Will you?
Pinche idiota, yo hablo espanol. (my keyboard does not so pretend the proper accent marks are there) Cagaste y saltaste en la caca , chingate pendajo.
No kidding. I prefer rude language in service of a good point over reams of mealy-mouthed blather like those of corvidd. In fact, I give the side-eye to pretty much anyone calling for civility and respect anymore, it tells me that they’re most likely more interest in the nice quiet* status quo than actual justice.
* for them, anyway
Tethys: You can add accent characters (for Latin-based alphabets) easily on Windows machines. You’ll need to enable an alternate keyboard with an international setting.
Here’s how I do it on Windows 7/8:
Open Control Panel > Clock, Language, Region > Change Input Methods > Options (on the display language) > Add an input method
Now you’ll get a language/keyboard control on your system tray right next to your clock or on your taskbar. Switch over to English (International/INTL).
This allows you to use “, `, ~, and ^ keys to input accents. So if you want ë, you enter the sequence “e or for ñ: ~n.
I hope this helps. :)
@omnicrom I would like to. It will take a lot of time though. There a lot to read.
@Tethys So? The message was not addressed to you. Al Dente wanted evidence that those were feminists. Whether you can read them or not is irrelevant since I did not lie when I said those were feminists. You seem to be implying that I just quoted some random article in Spanish.
Which you still haven’t provided. I see a bunch of people yelling outside a church and some topless women yelling at something or other. No evidence they’re feminists. They probably are feminists of some form or other, but if you want us to be outraged because a church got graffitied then you’re at the wrong blog.
Also, this was utterly preciosa:
Aeder Liliaceae @460:
Also fix’d.
So, a protest got out of hand. This is all feminism’s fault, apparently, for being an ideology rooted in the ideology that …. Oh wait, there is no root to the ideology of feminism which makes its proponents more inured to violence/vandalism. So yeah, what a fucking non-starter your “sample” is.
BwaahahahaHA, are you really so stupid as to think what you say here in a room full of people is private? That makes what you say even more questionable.
Which you haven’t proven that those are mainstream feminists, not a radical fringe. You are trying to make a strawwoman, where it doesn’t exist. Typical modus operandi of the MRA fuckwits.
throwaway
Thanks for the instructions. I know that I could make it so that my keyboard types proper accents, but I don’t think troll is worth the effort.
LOL
nice one.
you don’t know fucking abuse, little argentina boy.
I’m betting you’re actually Catholic, and just pissed off that the institution that supports misogyny in most of South America, not just Argentina, is finally, and rightly, being attacked by people angry at what it has done to society for hundreds of years.
run along and go get yourself spray painted, you fucking moron.
Indeed. Oh, the impolitic of fighting for your right to dominion over your body! A church gets graffiti’d. Meanwhile, an impoverished woman cannot have access to reproductive care and is further impoverished thanks to the opposition of the church to such things. I’m sorry, but I can see who the villains really are, and Aeder Liliaceae is cheering for the villains.
LOL, so, Aeder Liliaceae provided evidence that some feminists (probably) in Argentina used graffiti and vandalism… that little thing he mentioned about them assaulting and sexually harassing people? No evidence. I bet he’s hoping nobody brings that little tidbit up again. Too late for that!
Graffiti, oh dear me. Someone fetch me my fainting couch! Are there any pearls I can clutch? This is pretty rich coming from the guy who tried to criticize Tony for being like a puritanical religious nut.
But they forced young catholics to look at their boobies!! That counts right?!!
Besides, a little confrontation is perhaps expected, maybe even required, for social justice issues to gain traction, if history is anything to go by.
More importantly, did Aeder Liliaceae ever get around to explaining how these protests are relevant to a discussion about a sexist ass-hat and his unprofessionally sexist shirt choices?
Hold on, jste, maybe I can bring this back around.
Feminists in Argentina are jerks, therefore wearing a shirt full of images of sexually objectified women on international TV as a representative of scientific achievement isn’t sexist. Did I get that right, Aeder?
It’s relevant because some feminists going topless in Argentina means there’s no sexism in tech because everything with feminism is wrong forever.
FOREVER I tells ya.
Creationist grade logic. Trolls that imagine that if you can find one single person who/data point which disagrees with the theory then the whole thing crumbles into dust. Evolution, climate change, sexism, whatever. They are all ignorant fools with poor logic skills.
So, a bunch of women got tired of being punched in the face and so punched back, therefore feminism is bad?
Spoken like someone who never bothered to pay attention in any history class dealing with any civil rights movement anywhere.
I peeked at the video that supposedly shows the mass destruction following the feminists protest. The horror movie soundtrack is pretty laughable for images of graffiti, but at the 1:25 mark is an atheist A in a circle and an A+. I am a bit chuffed over that. You rock Argentinian feminists! Please continue to spit on the assholes who think their church of pedophiles and sexism deserves respect. Abortion legal, YES! Not whores, not submissives. God is not love. The church is shit. Their misogyny is trash! ( a poor translation of what they are chanting)
Aeder Liliaceae
I’m new here–actually my first post–but don’t you think it might undercut your credibility to be linking to a video provided by a group strongly opposed to women having control of their own bodies like Argentinos Alerta in a thread about women’s issues?
Also, judging your reaction to the videos, it seems that women asserting their own agency and control of their own bodies is frightening to you. I think, just maybe, that fear of women’s agency might be linked to you being okay with the shirt that dehumanizes/objectifies women (removes their agency). Just a thought you might want to reflect upon.
Oh yeah, women protesting against one of the organisations that has denied them humanity for millenia and that still opposes their right to have fundamental control over their bodies. An organistation that defends and supports laws that kill women. An organistion where rapists are forgiven, but people who carry out an abortion that saves the woman’s life are condemend. And last but not least, in Argentina, an organisation that fully supported a bloody dictator under whose regime women were killed, raped, had their babies stolen from them and then sold to good catholic families.
No son solamente las Madres de la Plaza de Mayo, son las Abuelas tambien.
Pero si, un poco de agua, y ropa interior, eso es violencia, te digo, violencia! Ayuden a la pobre iglesia católica y sus probrecitos jóvenes católicos!
If your argument against feminism sounds like something from The Onion, you’ve probably gotten something wrong somewhere.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/i-dont-support-feminism-if-it-means-murdering-all,37301/
Someone fixed that shirt. And is doing a Kickstarter so you can get one of your own. :)
Really, it’s about ethics in gaming journalism.
Well gosh, we appear to have a grammatically impaired church of the lilies among us. How delightful. (Perhaps if David M is around he might be kind enough to correct that). It would be particularly apt, then (especially considering your little youtube clip) to cordially invite you:
andá a llorar a la iglesia
The Horde may be amused to know that in Argentina one invites a person – usually a person of whom one does not think very highly – to “go and cry in church” when they have fucked up and are flailing impotently. A colloquial recognition, perhaps, that praying carries exactly the same weight in the real world as talking to oneself.
Here’s another tweet-by-tweet explanation of the harm this shirt does, in short, easy-to-understand wordbites.
I disagree with the spitting on people and spray painting people, but it’s awesome that they’re doing everything else. Get in those assholes’ faces, yell at them, do whatever you want to do with your body to make those privileged shits uncomfortable, etc. I support them.
But enough of that aside, Aeder. That’s a sexist shirt, and it is just one more reason why women (and thus science) are being held back. Who made the shirt is of no consequence.
I don’t know which livestream, but Matt Taylor apparently just apologized for the shirt, using these words. Can’t find the video, hopefully will be up very soon.
I’ve just watched the first video. They’re singing “Iglesia, basura, vos sos la dictadura” (Church, trash, you are the dictatorship). I can’t see that showing their tits would detract from the truth of that statement. I can’t see any vandalizing either (and being a Spaniard, I know a bit about that). The martyrdom look on the part of the boys seems insufferable, though.
And I had to laugh loud at comments like 487 by Carlie. Thanks.
Registered after years of lurking just for a small huzzah.
Taylor just apologised during the live hangout running right now. It was very brief, just by saying (roughly), “My shirt last week was a big mistake. A lot of people were offended and I’m sorry”, but considering the circumstances I think this is a good start.* He had just been asked his first question regarding the mission and he took the time to at least put out this short apology before actually starting to answer. And I think this is also good because the hangout will probably be seen by many more people than would any separate apology.
Of course a follow-up would be nice, a “full apology” including why it is necessary for those who don’t get this. But this is good news, right?
I have been fiercely annoyed by this whole thing. I missed the shirt at first and am glad it was pointed out here and, indeed, widely. Watching the livestreams I mentally noted “colourful shirt” without registering the pattern. I think I was distracted wondering who wears shorts working an endless night-shift while knowing they’d also be on television.
Ever since I have been cursing every those infamous pictures popped up though, so maybe things will get a bit better now. At the very least I’m pleased we have this small apology and that ESA picked up on the issue (hard to miss at this point, which is also good). I love ESA and I hated that this magnificient achievement was soured by this incident, so it’s good they are addressing it in at least a small way.
*You may correct me on this and you probably will.
Others have already picked it up, great.
The stream is still live and can be found here:
http://blogs.esa.int/rosetta/2014/11/14/rosetta-mission-results-from-comet-landing-14-nov-1300-gmt/
I’m glad he did. The whole pushback against the criticism of the shirt has been that it’s not offensive or sexist. So Taylor contradicting that message by saying he offended people and is sorry is a pretty good start.
It sure as hell takes care of the “a woman made the shirt so it’s okay” nonsense. The guy WEARING the shirt just agreed that it was offensive.
The hangout just finished so I finally have time to go back through it. You will still find it here (I assume it won’t be moved or anything but don’t really know how hangout vids work):
http://blogs.esa.int/rosetta/2014/11/14/rosetta-mission-results-from-comet-landing-14-nov-1300-gmt/
The apology segment starts at 15:20.
Emily Lakdawalla spoke
(https://twitter.com/elakdawalla/status/533257602768310272)
Thanks for that – he did sound emotional while saying it. I don’t know if it was from having to choke out the words, but I’ll believe that he was moved by the whole thing and really did mean it.
This right here (BBC video) is what I wanted from the successful landing. I spent the few days before going holy crap I hope it works! All those people! All their hard work! 10 bloody years! If it misses the comet I will be heart broken for them.
It’s too bad MT tried to make it all about him. JMHO but Monica Grady epitomizes the reaction that should have been at the heart of this fantastic moment. She made me cry… I was that thrilled for her.
This is a beautiful statement about it:
people matter, civilization is about the people and how we interact, not about the cool toys we can make.