Do you recognize this description of the American Humanist Association?
The American Humanist Association, which hates all religion with much fire and brimstone, has launched a national campaign to inspire Americans to refuse to say the entire Pledge of Allegiance everywhere, all the time until Congress officially removes the famous phrase “under God” from the patriotic, 31-word oath.
What, humanists? Fire and brimstone? The humanists are the nice people. That’s so far off and so ludicrously mischaracterizing the group, you won’t be surprised to learn it’s from those far right-wing flamers at the Daily Caller.
It is true that the American Humanists have launched a campaign to get the discriminatory religious message out of the pledge (I’m all for getting rid of it altogether — why do we make kids recite a loyalty oath?), but it seems to me like a fairly calm, rational argument that they are making.
So now David Niose has challenged Tucker Carlson to a debate over the pledge. I’d like to see that: on one side, cool, collected David Niose making reasonable points about the discriminatory religious requirement tacked on to what’s supposed to be a national statement of patriotism; on the other, a dithering dweeb in a bow tie demanding intolerance. It should be fun!
Seriously, don’t our kids have anything better to do then mouth meaningless loyalty oaths? I can still remember various Bart Simpson-esque parodies my friends and used to substitute (we were sooooo funny) – and the I swear that the vast majority of my elementary school peers said “I pledge of allegiance” for years because they just weren’t listening and didn’t care. What purpose does this serve, other than as a political football for asshole adults?
Wow, that comment needs some editing. My friends and I… and an extra ‘the’ sitting between ‘and’ and ‘I.’ This is what I should have been learning when I was gibbering out the pledge…
I remember getting in trouble in high school in 1969 for refusing to say the Pledge of Allegiance. I still won’t repeat that damned loyalty oath.
This feels like the Nye/Ham “debate” where one side has all the facts and the other side has hysteria, outlandish accusations, and distractions that will dominate the debate.
What is the purpose of making children say the pledge of allegiance at all? First, it sounds terribly dictatorial; second, making some noises in synchrony is not proof of allegiance anyway.
Amerika, Amerika über alles!
Tucker Carlson, the real life Captain Black.
Catch-22. Everything you need to know about the way the world works in one book. Read the rest of the chapter here: http://www.sheilaomalley.com/?p=7225
Speaking of allegiances, Lillian Gobitas, plaintiff in a flag saluting case, seems to have died recently..
Praying to The Flag is Idolatry.
Vexillolatry, surely?
Ever since I was in high school, my policy has been to stand up with the crowd (because otherwise you’re stuck staring at the butt of the person in front of you), and stand quietly — not saying any of the Loyalty Oath, and especially not the god part. It’s never been a problem. Especially in the 70s and 80s, where we didn’t have such a fervent reactionary element — and I haven’t had to test it in many years.
This thread needs some Calvin and Hobbes:
http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2014/09/10?utm_source=ch_fb&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=scheduled
I haven’t said the pledge in decades, but I’m never in large public gatherings (e.g. games) where it might happen. I believe my son went through 14 years of school without saying the pledge, at least not very often…the upside of going to school with the children of a bunch of hippies here in Lala Land.
I’d like to see it go by the wayside altogether. Back in the ’60s, I refused to say it in Catholic school (we were supposed to stand and recite it every freaking morning), but I did stand and place my hand, to do otherwise was asking for torture a la Nun. I got caught once by a sharp eyed Nun who noticed my lips weren’t moving. Got in a fucktonne of trouble, too. After that, I silently recited a bit of Yeats’s The Indian Upon God.
I say change it to “one nation, under a groove.”
In boarding school, we had to go to church on Tuesday and Thursday as well as Sunday. And they took attendance. So I just sat in the pew and didn’t stand for the hymns or kneel for the prayers. The teachers gave me the hairy eyeball but they couldn’t do anything about it. They did, however, kick me out at the end of the school year.
Reading the article linked to by Matthias Neeracher, it is scary that the Supreme Court ruled that Gobitas wasn’t obligated to say the pledge because of sincere religions convictions. It sounds like if the student had objected to the pledge on some non-religious basis, she would have lost.
The pledge of allegiance is extremely creepy to begin with. Yes, children, unthinkingly recite this pledge, several words of which you probably don’t even understand yet. And remember the proper hand gesture! Oh, wait, they got rid of that part later on because of certain… similarities.
Why do we even have a pledge of allegiance in the first place? Were they afraid that without it kids would grow up to be communist, marxist, socialist atheists or something?
I haven’t said the damn thing since Kent State. The US is still on probation for me.
I remember reading a story years ago about an English family who were in the US temporarily and sent their kids to an ordinary public school. One day one of the kids told her mum how she recited the pledge of allegiance in the morning. “But, darling, you can’t say that – you’re British, not American.” The little girl’s reply was, “Mum, I’m the only one in the class who knows it.”
I seem to remember some Christians protesting the Pledge of Allegiance on the grounds that they shouldn’t have to swear loyalty to anything other than their God.
I’ll agree with getting rid of it, just as a waste of time.
Funny thing. The service pledge you take entering government service? You don’t have to say the “So help me God” part. They tell you that. When I was sworn in to one of the most conservative institutions in the world (DoD,) that choice was made explicit to my cohort respectfully by an earnest and patriotic lifelong civil servant.
Because the oath is to protect and uphold the principles in the constitution.
Why is patriotism considered such an obligatory positive? It seems that being accused of being “unpatriotic” in the US by some is akin to being accused of lighting puppies on fire.
…and that was a horrible sentence, and I’m too tired to correct. Sorry.
Tony:
Oh, you’re so young. (Teasing!) Francis Bellamy, who wrote the pledge, was a socialist. (The history of the pledge is right interestin’.)
The ‘under god’ business wasn’t added until 1954, and yes, Americans were all worried about the evils of communism. There’s more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance
Yes. “Liberty and justice for all” is supposed to be aspirational, not descriptive. Of course nobody hears it that way.
I’m just gonna leave this here.
I might be wrong, but I suspect that for many that is a feature, not a bug.
It pains me to keep hearing Kevin make himself into more and more of a douche. Come on, man.
What? I swear that I meant to post that under the Sorbo topic.
Well, damn.
lordwindowlicker @ 28, I think you got the wrong thread. The Sorbo thread is here.
29 originally up until the 50s.
In school, late 40s in England, we had to say the lord’s prayer each morning, I was about 9 and used to wonder what being “done in earth” meant, also I could not understand why God would even consider leading me into temptation.
I enjoyed Robin Williams’ quip that we were One Nation under Canada.
A man named Jello once said:
I pledge defiance to the flag of the United Snakes of Captivity
And to the Republic for which it stands, I dip it in kerosene, and stick it up the ass of you know who and light it
One nation, under God–or else
One nation, under psychopath Pentagon gangsters, whose idea of democracy is concentration camps for the people who go and use the drugs that the government supplies themselves
One nation, under Wall Street:
If the cops and the President are all criminals, I might as well be one too, ha ha!
One Nation of tabloid robots who actually believe what they see on tv, but when ask about it say “I don’t care.”
One nation, drowning in its own garbage
Indivisible from the from the fall of Rome
With liberty and justice for all who can afford it
Burn, Baby, Burn
Old Glory
The Yankee Swastika
Burn, Baby, Burn
Burn, Baby, Burn
Whenever I see you I see red
Whenever I see you I see red
If the Communists can do it, why can’t we
Throw the bastards out and try some real Democracy
Not by rich people
Not by Army people
Not by sons of senators sons of senators sons of senators sons
After all, have you noticed
The more they dole out Democracy over there
The more they take it away over here
Now, before it’s too late
Be a good boyscout
Take the Swastika
The Yankee Swastika
and let it
Burn
Burn
Burn, baby Burn
Offtopic, but did anyone catch Steven Pinker tweeting about “how true “The Bell Curve” is ” recently on twitter?
David73 @ 32:
I had to recite that often, too. Always did strike me as a very silly prayer. The version we had in Catholic school tacked For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever onto the end, which I always felt embarrassed over. It was like something out of a He-man cartoon.
Shadow_Nirvana @ 34, a good place for that is Thunderdome, an open thread.
Ryan Cunningham @ 22
Yeah, about that.
At least we’re not stuck with the Colonel Balch salute to the flag written 3 years before Bellamy’s pledge; “We give our heads and our hearts to God and our country; one country, one language, one Flag.” I don’t know how the Republicans missed out on this one; It has God and one language.
Talking to flags looks silly, but I had to recite the lord’s prayer in Welsh. Luckily God understands all languages, just like dogs.
@ Iyéska #36:
Interesting; I always used that as a taxonomic descriptor to distinguish Catholic from, say, Anglicans who did the He-man power trip add-on mutterings.
Iyéska @36
?? I was raised in conservative Protestant and the version we recited about every 5 minutes ended for thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory forever and ever amen. I remember attending a Mass once (this is a funny story – it’s how I got kicked out of Girl Scouts) and being baffled that the prayer was different.
Anyway, on topic: I grew up in the ass end of the Bible Belt. The Pledge began every school day. There was a kid in my class who was (I think) Jehovah’s Witness, and her parents thought the pledge was idolatrous or something, and she had permission to sit quietly. In reality, she stood, put her hand over her heart, and stood quietly. To avoid getting bullied.
One of my top three moments from the 25 years of Simpsons episodes is the one in which Bart is writing on the board, “The Pledge of Allegiance does not end with the words ‘Hail Satan'” It always gives me a smirk.
I remember reciting the pledge every morning in elementary school (the early 1970s, Clear Lake, Texas). Never thought much about it. But the thing I remember most, that over the PA system, the principal would occasionally play a recording from the Red Skelton (IICR) commenting what the pledge meant, not that it made all that much more sense to us kids either (just another adult going blah blah blah to my ears). http://www.usflag.org/skeltonspledge.html
Back in grade school in the mid-late 1960’s, I put my left hand over my heart while saying the pledge and was sent to the principal’s office where it was determined that, being left handed, I could in-fact use that hand. The incident caused me to think about the words and I quit saying the pledge.
If American school children do not recite the loyalty oath (including the Roman Catholic Knights of Columbus prayer part) every school day they will grow to be Canadians, or worse, French.
ftfy.
In semi-related news, I read today that a member of the US Air Force has been told that he is not going to be allowed to re-enlist unless he swears a loyalty oath including the phrase “so help me God,” despite being an atheist.
Apparently the re-enlistment form has this oath, and in the past the Air Force let people who didn’t want to swear a religious oath cross those words out, which is what he did.
They’ve started cracking down on that though… in Oct. they issued orders dropping that option, and you either have to swear “so help me God” or you can’t enlist anymore.
Well, I can tell you that the elementary levels of the public schools in Springfield, Missouri, recite the pledge every morning. I tend to go silent for the “under God” bit.
The original pledge emphasized the phrase “indivisible” and as a subtle dig at the still-sore Confederates who needed to be reminded that they had gotten their treasonous asses kicked a few decades earlier. Perhaps if people start bringing up the post Civil War context of the pledge, a lot of the people now who still think the text is found in the Bible will STFU a bit more.
Mention of Calvin and Hobbes with the pledge made me think of this one
http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2009/10/22/
but I think pentatomid’s is more appropriate.
I remember in back in High School going through an procession of ways I dealt with the usual recitation of the pledge. After I became an Atheist and heard about how it was added in later I stopped saying the “Under God”, and then after reading some unvarnished history of America I stopped saying it eventually, and then after a while I started saying my own little pledge.
“I pledge allegience to the Ideals of the United States of America, and to the Republic, as long as it stands one nation indivisible with Liberty and Justice for All”
I still stand by it.
jnorris #45
And what does this say about French Canadians? Hmm?
*refuses to so much as look at jnorris*
Although the UK is far less overrun with jingoistic nationalism than our former colony, the occasions when the national anthem is sung can be a bit of a moral decision point. A colleague and I, both ardent republicans (no, not in the American sense!), were in the ranks of academics on stage at a graduation ceremony, and had a discussion prior to deciding that no, we weren’t going to ask a nonexistent deity to save a monarch whose position we would rather abolish, even if the ranks of proud parents might notice.
I’ve only done it once (at a mass citizenship sweary thingy) IIRR I said “One Nation’s underwear”.
That commercial was great! Short, to the point, not at all confrontational. One minor nit: It might have strengthened the point somewhat to mention that the pledge as worded also is exclusive towards polytheists.
#53 / Marcus:
Give it a week…
I never really though about the Pledge until I moved out of the US and realized that it was a loyalty oath. Given the number of “Jet Noise: The Sound of Freedom” bumper stickers where I grew up, there wasn’t a lot of questioning of it…
I’m with others here in that the “under god” section of the pledge is the least troublesome part of the whole thing. Yes, it is a problem, but the bigger problem is having a pledge at all.
Oh, by the way, school has changed a bit. There isn’t JUST a pledge of allegiance anymore. Now, schools start with that pledge, then go to a “state pledge”. Yes, a state pledge. After THAT, some schools even add a “school creed”. Then a moment of silence, then announcements. I point all this out because a lot of kids might not get why the pledge of allegiance is being “singled out”, when to us, that’s all we ever HAD. It’s a generational gap thing, and it’s important to be aware of just how bloated all these oaths and creeds are getting.
Do these Hair On Fire™ types realize the original pledge was written by a Baptist minister? Had he felt the need for some theocratic mention in a purely secular statement, he would have included one. It was the Red Menace Among Us™ types who created a very special type of Frankenstein’s Monster.
I was forced to sing the national anthem every Friday (and the whole bloody thing too, instead of just the first verse like everybody else in the damn world), but we were a country barely out of a military dictatorship.
We had to pray (and pray correctly) at school or get caned, which is literally physical and emotional child abuse. Thinking back, it’s bizarre how all the parents were okay with that. I guess not rocking the boat is worth your child being abused by random teachers.
Saad @5
First, there is always the hope that it gets programmed in, and by all appearances, it seems effective when used with the other tools of authoritarian nationalism.
Second, even if it didn’t work, theatre is another favorite of authoritarian nationalists.
#59 vaiyt
Before I got to the end of your sentence, I thought you were talking about the US, but when I finished, I wasn’t sure. In one of my morning classes years ago, we too had to sing the entire “Defence [sic] of Fort McHenry” to start the day. (How many people even know what that is?)
At least it wasn’t completely wasted. I loved the lines
“Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps’ pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:”
(Take that you British oppressors) immediately followed in the next verse by
“Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: “In God is our trust.””.
Years ago when our fine patriots were stumbling over trying to get through the first verse at ball games and other fine occasions, I would sing either the third or fourth verse — and no one seemed to notice.
Returning the original topic, at a very young age, other than wondering why our nation was invisible, I didn’t understand why we were swearing an oath to a piece of cloth (and later to a piece of plastic). Later, after they added the bit about “under God”, I wondered whether God had punished us in WW II and the Korean police action for not acknowledging His divine interventions. (It took another year before I finished reading the Holy Bible and realized I was an atheist.)
Anyway, thanks for the fond memories.
Yeah, like pretty much every other student, I rarely actually said the pledge (well, after 3rd grade or so).
Except for my Freshman year of high school – My homeroom was in my Spanish class, so we were required to say it, in Spanish, minus the “bajo Dios” part