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Mar 31 2014

[Thunderdome]

ferengi

This is Thunderdome, the unmoderated open thread on Pharyngula. Say what you want, how you want.

Status: UNMODERATED; Previous thread

703 comments

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  1. 501
    SallyStrange

    No, I’m not misrepresenting her views on domestic violence. See: http://manboobz.com/2012/08/16/girlwriteswhat-on-the-necessity-of-domestic-violence-i-dont-really-find-too-much-thats-seriously-ethically-questionable/

    (Not that you’ll even read that. Hopefully the lurkers will appreciate it.)

    She also thinks the Taliban are totes copacetic in terms of how they treat women. FTB’s own Avicenna did a long takedown of her disgusting post on that subject: http://freethoughtblogs.com/amilliongods/2013/07/07/a-voice-for-me-pet-rock/comment-page-1/

  2. 502
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Seriously, we’re giving you the links you can’t even Google for. I’m sure a pretentious twit like you has Siri, just make her search for you, you lazy, ignorant little pissant.

    And you should try responding me, at least attempt to look like you have any honesty or integrity. You’ll be banned soon enough the way you’re going, even Thunderdome has it’s limits. Working towards your 4th Thunderdome prattling, I can’t imagine you’ll last much longer.

    Well, now maybe I don’t want you to respond to me after all. Banning would at least end the misery.

  3. 503
    SallyStrange

    I mean, seriously… TVTropes?? You’re trolling us, aren’t you?

  4. 504
    Tommy Capitalist

    @SallyStrange
    Ok those are pretty terrible. I can’t believe she’d trivialize violence against women like that. I linked to completely different person though.

  5. 505
    Athywren

    According to tvtropes I think you may be misrepresenting her views on domestic violence. It seems she believes domestic violence is wrong but just wants the domestic violence laws reformed.

    Does tvtropes have a Pulitzer too?

    One hastily searched example of GWW’s expressed opinion of how domestic violence is wrong.

  6. 506
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    503
    Tomas C.

    I linked to completely different person though.

    ………WHO CITES HER AS WHY SHE’S AGAINST FEMINISM. And links to several videos of her disgusting fucking views to justify it. Please do keep up.

    Am I invisible here? Oh, right I’m an Invisible Pixel, I keep forgetting since I know I exist.

  7. 507
    Tommy Capitalist

    @JAL
    What did you want me to respond to? This

    Oh, and can you cut the sexist shit and actually name a feminist for once? You kept referencing specific feminist but instead treat them as other. No, instead of linking just keep posting links to their detractors. Don’t want to show you’re work? Have you actually visited, read or listened to an actual feminist or do you just stay in your little ignorant privileged bubble? Giving assholes page hits because you’re trolling?
    At this point, I’m just waiting for the ban since you keep repeating the same shit and refuse to listen and learn.

    I wasn’t criticising any feminist in particular

  8. 508
    Athywren

    It makes me sad that I know a guy who’s a fan of GWW. I saw him comment on one of her videos once – I think it was one of the “I’m a terrible person, so all women must be, because hive vagina” videos – “you’re a genius!
    Fuck. The guy used to be a skeptic. But then, I guess we all know people who abandoned reason after the dawn of the elevator.

  9. 509
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    What did you want me to respond to?

    Read all my comments, I’ve referenced my response to your LIES about feminists harming men’s rights for those bills.

    You have to be lying and trolling at this point. No way you missed it.

    *raises hand* I think it’s a slam dunk case for banning now.

  10. 510
    Tommy Capitalist

    @JAL
    I’m not saying feminists shouldn’t have opposed those laws. I think those laws were concerns for father’s rights that fathers should be concerned about and discuss with feminist opposition.

  11. 511
    SallyStrange

    Ok those are pretty terrible.

    Why, Tomas? Can you even articulate why it is that domestic violence is incompatible with equality for women? What is so bad about the way the Taliban approach gender and gender relations?

    I can’t believe she’d trivialize violence against women like that.

    Why can’t you believe it? Were you unaware that there is a sizable portion of American society that routinely trivialized violence against women like that?

    I linked to completely different person though.

    I’m going to refer you to JAL here.

    And, seriously, TVTROPES??!? What the fucking fuck is WRONG with you?

  12. 512
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    509
    Tomas C.

    @JAL
    I’m not saying feminists shouldn’t have opposed those laws. I think those laws were concerns for father’s rights that fathers should be concerned about and discuss with feminist opposition.

    NO, that’s not even remotely accurate to the context. You were citing them as Feminist are Evil and not for equal rights and defending MRAs. We can read your fucking words, you know. Going to actually respond to how we refuted your ‘knowledge’ of the bills and situation or just going to keep fucking lying?

  13. 513
    SallyStrange

    I wasn’t criticising any feminist in particular

    Obviously not; criticizing a particular feminist would require having specific, accurate knowledge of ONE SINGLE FEMINIST. Which you obviously do not. Which negates the value of any critique you might attempt to launch against feminism or feminists.

  14. 514
    Amphiox

    I can’t believe she’d trivialize violence against women like that.

    Perhaps you should take this as a hint that you’re not qualified to comment on this subject?

    It is VERY COMMON for women to trivialize violence against other women. It is part of how patriarchal oppression of women is perpetuated, when the women themselves are enculturated to dismiss, look the other way, excuse, or otherwise trivialize such violence.

    If ALL women actually took an active stand against such violence, it would have ended long ago. 51% of a population actively opposed to anything will destroy it. If 51% of all citizens in a society refused to pay their taxes, no amount of government sanctioned force could compel them otherwise, and your libertarian utopia would be achieved (it would only last a few weeks before collapsing, of course).

  15. 515
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    506
    Tomas C.

    I wasn’t criticising any feminist in particular

    Swing and a miss. You haven’t gotten one thing right so far, you should just stop or you’re going to hurt yourself.

  16. 516
    Travis

    Wow, I cannot believe this is still going on.

    Anyway, I just wanted to share a quote I just came across and liked while rereading Snow Crash, not really related to the ongoing discussion but relevant to a number of posts PZ has made about sexism in computing circles, especially the last one that declared that nerd types cannot be sexist like the bullies they used to deal with.

    He was working on bodies, she was working on faces. She was the face department, because nobody thought that faces were all that important — they were just flesh-toned busts on top of the avatars. She was just in the process of proving them all desperately wrong. But at this phase, the all-male society of bit-heads that made up the power structure of Black Sun Systems said that the face problem was trivial and superficial. It was, of course, nothing more than sexism, the especially virulent type espoused by male techies who sincerely believe that they are too smart to be sexists.

  17. 517
    Athywren

    It is VERY COMMON for women to trivialize violence against other women. It is part of how patriarchal oppression of women is perpetuated, when the women themselves are enculturated to dismiss, look the other way, excuse, or otherwise trivialize such violence.

    Who wants to bet that this is taken as evidence?
    “Oh, women support their own oppression? Surely that accounts for most of the discrimination then!”

    Hopefully I’m wrong. I do like it when my opinions of people are overly harsh.

  18. 518
    SallyStrange

    It is VERY COMMON for women to trivialize violence against other women.

    And against themselves. Lord knows I’ve done it.

  19. 519
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    And against themselves. Lord knows I’ve done it.

    I hear that. I haven’t trivialized violence against other women, but I’ve had to ignore it. When you’re poor in a poor neighborhood calling the cops on the beater next door doesn’t work. You could destroy their income or babysitter or lose the car or anything really. Even minor set backs could ruin you. So, you give a nod, offer support subtly, let their kids come play and stay the fuck out. Because that woman will fucking hate you and make you suffer if she loses her kids over you calling. And lord knows how those kids will fare in foster care. Or homeless shelters.

    It’s a shitty fucking situation all around. And extremely fucking common.
    *sigh*

  20. 520
    Athywren

    @Travis
    :(
    Sometimes it seems like every subculture I’m a part of is soaked with misogyny and nonsense. Hell, there even manages to be some among KSP players, which is amazing because the Kerbals are barely characters at all… but heavens forbid that anyone would try to mod in the ability to have female Kerbals (I mean, hey, it’s not like anybody’s ever heard of a feeeeemale in space, is it?).

  21. 521
    Athywren

    @JAL
    But remember, you totally chose all of that, so it’s not discrimination and it’s all alright!

  22. 522
    anteprepro

    How. How is it possible that Tomas is getting stupider.

  23. 523
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    519
    Athywren

    Sometimes it seems like every subculture I’m a part of is soaked with misogyny and nonsense.

    Considering how ingrained in society at large, I image the only places not soaked in those had to work towards that goal.

    But I hate life and am cynical as fuck, so what do I know.

  24. 524
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    520
    Athywren

    @JAL
    But remember, you totally chose all of that, so it’s not discrimination and it’s all alright!

    *snort**bitter laugh*

    What’s the bullshit line about “equal opportunities doesn’t equal outcomes”. I’m sure that’s coming next from Thomas. Because we TOTES caused this all ourselves. It’s no wonder some women just go along with it for the rewards of being a “good girl”. Lord knows I tried that route with my father.
    ======================

    521
    anteprepro

    How. How is it possible that Tomas is getting stupider.

    On purpose? That’s all I got. His silence speaks fucking volumes, which is a nice change from his usual blather and video spam.

  25. 525
    Tommy Capitalist

    Most of the stuff I’ve seen about feminism is the ones I’ve seen on youtube and TV. The ones who try to ban men from saying words they don’t like like “bossy” or games they don’t like or get a man fired from his job for making a job about a dongle. I support equality , but I don’t agree with that stuff There is this british guy named thunderf00t who does this series I watch about them.

  26. 526
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    524
    Tomas C.

    Most of the stuff I’ve seen about feminism is the ones I’ve seen on youtube and TV. The ones who try to ban men from saying words they don’t like like “bossy” or games they don’t like or get a man fired from his job for making a job about a dongle. I support equality , but I don’t agree with that stuff There is this british guy named thunderf00t who does this series I watch about them.

    Troll. Motherfucking troll. Can we ban him now? He’s outed himself and we’ve educated the lurkers enough that another go around won’t make a difference.

  27. 527
    Seven of Mine, formerly piegasm

    Ahh so we’ve arrived at Thunderfoot, have we?

    Oy.

  28. 528
    Tommy Capitalist

    @JAL
    I’m sorry , if you disagree with me. I definitely agree with some things like ending domestic violence and equal pay for equal work. , but I disagree with others. I guess we’ll never agree.

  29. 529
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    I mean we can’t ban him, I know that. I just meant it as a short hand for send the alert to PZ because this is beyond ridiculous. It’s been 4 pages now of this asshole, and well over 1500 comments (at 500 comments per page for previous 3). Especially after that last comment.

  30. 530
    Tommy Capitalist

    @Seven of mine
    I take it you disagree with his videos too?

  31. 531
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    527
    Tomas C.

    @JAL
    I’m sorry , if you disagree with me. I definitely agree with some things like ending domestic violence and equal pay for equal work. , but I disagree with others. I guess we’ll never agree.

    Oh save that patronizing, condescending bullshit. You can’t possibly be ignorant of thunderfoot’s history here, or the threads about the dongle joke incident or that ban “bossy” bullshit.

  32. 532
    Tommy Capitalist

    I don’t want to get banhammered. I’ll drop the feminism stuff. And won’t discuss any more controversial topics.

  33. 533
    anteprepro

    Dismissing sexual harassment in the tech world, Anita Sarkeesian and others protesting sexism in gaming, and feminist concerns over sexism in language? SUPPORTING THUNDERFOOL? I second JAL.

    Go fuck yourself, Tomas. Even if you are ignorant, your ignorance is fucking malicious .

  34. 534
    Travis

    Athywren,
    Sadly I have to agree with JAL, pretty much every group is soaked in this stuff. Even groups that actively work on these issues should be aware that it can creep in and has to be watched for. I am a gamer and a programmer and both have some very toxic components.

  35. 535
    SallyStrange

    Why don’t you just fuck off.

  36. 536
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    There is this british guy named thunderf00t who does this series I watch about them.

    Ah, no wonder Tomas C is a clueless fool. He listens to other clueless fools, full of sound and fury meaning nothing, but of no evidence ever to back up those claims….

  37. 537
    Tommy Capitalist

    I guess I struck a chord here. Maybe a break would be best?

  38. 538
    anteprepro

    Wow. Tomas’s cowardice is impressive. I would pity him again, but I fell into the trap once already.

  39. 539
    Seven of Mine, formerly piegasm

    @Tomas

    You might as well just go all in and join the Hovindites at this point. Thunderfoot is about as coherent as they are when it comes to feminism.

  40. 540
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I don’t want to get banhammered. I’ll drop the feminism stuff. And won’t discuss any more controversial topics.

    Why don’t you just lurk for a while. That way, you can’t get into trouble.

  41. 541
    Travis

    At this point in time I think it is pretty clear Tomas is just a troll. I think they are just trying to push the buttons they know will get a response and is likely very aware of how thunderf00t is viewed here.

  42. 542
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    536
    Tomas C.

    I guess I struck a chord here. Maybe a break would be best?

    Make it permanent or I’ll feed you til you break.

  43. 543
    anteprepro

    I guess I struck a chord here.

    “Did I do thaaaaat? #trollface”

    Maybe a break would be best?

    We’ve been saying that for a while now. You have a fucking loooooooong reading list until you can really be anywhere near worth debating, you ignorant fuck.

  44. 544
    anteprepro

    Travis

    At this point in time I think it is pretty clear Tomas is just a troll. I think they are just trying to push the buttons they know will get a response and is likely very aware of how thunderf00t is viewed here.

    I don’t think Tomas is just trying to get a rise of us. I think Tomas really is just as stupid as they seem. It just is a very toxic, malicious stupidity.

  45. 545
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    540
    Travis

    At this point in time I think it is pretty clear Tomas is just a troll.

    Oh, well. No troll or smug “I told you so dance” will make me regret debunking bullshit.

    Trolls think “We’ll make them waste time and energy, trigger them too!”. Jokes on them, I love to vent this way. Rage fuels me fuckers, thanks for stopping by.

  46. 546
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    The long winded twerp is impressed by Tfoot’s highly untruthful crusade against feminism.

    And he is crowing about how this “struck a chord”.

    So glad I have been ignoring this long game troll.

  47. 547
    SallyStrange

    Tomas, I meant. Why doesn’t Tomas just fuck off.

  48. 548
    consciousness razor

    What are the prizes like for getting a Bingo these days anyway?

  49. 549
    Travis

    Trolls think “We’ll make them waste time and energy, trigger them too!”. Jokes on them, I love to vent this way. Rage fuels me fuckers, thanks for stopping by.

    Fair enough, I can understand that, sometimes I will comment back and forth with people I believe are there more for the reaction and time wasting than trying to make a point just because it feels good to get some of that stuff out.

  50. 550
    Inaji

    I sent a note to PZ, requesting a look at Tomas.

    This would no doubt be a good time for said troll to scamper off.

  51. 551
    Athywren

    @Travis,

    Sadly I have to agree with JAL, pretty much every group is soaked in this stuff.

    Yeah, I know… at least I know now – before the anti-Watson campaign, I was one of those people who thought that feminism was a great thing whose job was done. Since then I’ve been discovering that practically everything I enjoy is full of this anti-women crap. Blargh.

    Oh, an on the topic of thunderf33t, I used to be a huge fan of his… I kinda drifted away from him after he got started on the whole “ground zero mosque” thing, then I got linked to a video of his complaining about his groupthink blogs escapade, expecting me to be outraged at the violation of his precious freeze peach, and my palm hit my face with resounding force.
    Come on though, who takes thunderf00t seriously? The guy claimed he’d rather be raped than have to deal with a facial scar. Fucking seriously. Not only does he clearly have no empathy for women, at least not the ones who are violating his rights by wanting to be treated with respect at conventions, he obviously thinks rape is just sex that you didn’t much like. I am so embarrassed to have been a fan of his.

  52. 552
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Thunderf00t?
    Really?
    In a discussion about (among other things) feminism?
    Tomas I hope you do fuck off for good.

  53. 553
    Howard Bannister

    Hey, speaking of Libertarianism, this made me laugh. (from the “a good cartoon” tumblr)

  54. 554
    Inaji

    Athywren:

    The guy claimed he’d rather be raped than have to deal with a facial scar.

    Well, you know for a fact he has never been raped.

  55. 555
    omnicrom

    So things that Tomas has yet to do, and probably will never ever do:

    Admit they were wrong about the custody laws they cited and that they say totally different things from what they claimed the laws stated.

    Read up on company towns.

    Read a link posted by this thread in response to anything they have said.

    Demonstrate a knowledge on the difference between Prejudice and Racism.

    Name a single actual feminist and what they genuinely believe.

    Climb out the Dunning-Kruger hole and appreciate how little they actually know about all the subjects they spent about one week and several hundred posts arguing about.

  56. 556
    vaiyt

    I guess I struck a chord here.

    “Yay! I managed to come across as a complete fucking douchenozzle! I win!”

  57. 557
    Amphiox

    here is this british guy named thunderf00t who does this series I watch about them.

    On the topic of feminism, on the grand scale of reliability of sources, tvtropes might rate a zero, as in utterly useless and inappropriate.

    thunderf00t is a -100.

  58. 558
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Athywren:

    The guy claimed he’d rather be raped than have to deal with a facial scar.

    Okay, can I resign from the human race now? Or take an exit ramp?

  59. 559
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Relevant post from Pleated Jeans (cited for source): direct linkage to picture here.

    I didn’t realize that either til I read it. I mean I knew the facts but didn’t connect them like that.

  60. 560
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Okay, can I resign from the human race now? Or take an exit ramp?

    Well, considering that the exit ramp goes in circles….

  61. 561
    Travis

    I am watching a BBC Four programme right now, “Hidden Killers – 1. The Victorian Home”, and so far it has been talking about adulterated food and just how extremely common it was due to the lack of regulation. I wonder how people like Tomas would deal with this? This is not really an area where we can just do our homework and decide not to buy from companies that adulterate their foods, unless you have your own lab and know how to test for every possible adulterate, you are at their mercy until someone happens to figure out they have been doing it.

  62. 562
    dobbshead

    It might help Tomas to have a small anecdote related to feminism.

    I was at a bar with some people from my research group. The bartender comes up to us and starts chatting. It comes up that we’re scientists and he starts waxing poetic about how great that is. He then turns to the only woman in our group and says to her: “These guys are going places, you should stick with them,” because obviously a woman, especially a pretty woman, could never be a scientist drinking with her colleagues. She must be somebody’s girlfriend. #patriarchy

  63. 563
    Rey Fox

    So I’ve been away for a while. I guess the younger generation is getting their information and worldview from dipshits with a webcam on Youtube now? We’re fucked.

  64. 564
    Snoof

    So I’ve been away for a while. I guess the younger generation is getting their information and worldview from dipshits with a webcam on Youtube now? We’re fucked.

    That’s what they said about the generation that got its information and worldview from TV.
    *looks around*
    You have a point.

  65. 565
    Rey Fox

    Thank heaven my generation got its information and worldview from fanzines.

  66. 566
    Kagehi

    There are definitely times I wish, after the fact, that I had bookmarked a page. With regard to “descrimination” I just remembered a post, not long ago, probably through Greta’s, or Rebecca’s site, in which one of the writers (it was probable the latter one) posted at length about how she had to deal with the game design world. Basically, once she stopped dressing up to work, and went with genes, and the like, cut her hair short, stopped using much, or any makeup, and generally went as far towards, “Possibly a younger man, instead of an obvious woman”, she got promoted, and people listened to her. The rest of the women get ignored, their ideas sidelined, or only asked their opinion when its something like what sort of bow they think the character would have in their hair. And, she comments in there that if she lets her hair start to grow out too much, she sees this sort of automatic tendency for them to stop asking her about things, or listening to her ideas, or otherwise treating her any differently than all the, “we only need you if its a female issue”, women on the sidelines. As much as I admit that “some” of this might be her own perception, I also believe, whole heartedly, from some of the crap female gamers go through, as well as female developers who try to get their own works published, etc., that a huge amount of it is almost 100% certainly very, very real. Guys, at least the macho, I am a geek, and make games, types, derail when they have to deal with women.

    I would argue that, in some respects, rich, white, CEOs, who likely spend a bloody lot of their time with dumb blonde types trying to chase their money (meaning the real, or fake, airhead, to get at the money, behaviors stereotypical of this trope), that they almost certainly have the same stupid attitude. The higher up in a company, or project team, etc., the more likely, regardless of field, that this is likely to pop up. I can easily imagine that women, *if* they managed to get the same positions, would have some of the same sort of stuff happening to them, and probably have a real bad attitude about men on the team too. Except… men are not taught to think, or act this way, so the actual result would likely be a pissed off female CEO, who has an endless line of asses, who all think they can do the job better than she can, or don’t have to listen to what she is telling them. An attitude that is no more conducive to equality, or the belief that it is possible, than having gold diggers running after your money would be.

    In any case, there may be, from the perspective of the men, “perceived” reasons for thinking women would be bad in a field, and therefor shouldn’t be in it. Some of it is less preparedness, due to having to fight uphill against everything, including schools, who might be much more willing to shove the girl into home economics, or cooking, classes, than a science lab. Some of it is just plain cultural assumptions on who should have the money, or, specifically, be making it, i.e., the most between the two partners. Some of it is assumptions, pushed from an early age, about what both sexes “should” want to be doing.

    But, a lot of it is the fact that there are still people out there who are old enough, and in charge, to think women, “shouldn’t be in the field at all”, and, unfortunately, sons, who grew up with that attitude, from one, or both, parents, who are now the ones struggling, when/if they bother doing so at all, with whether or not this person with a dress is actually doing a good job, or if, because they don’t think this can be possible, due to existing prejudice, are discounting their work, even when it is, objectively, as good, or better.

    The reality is, in too much of the economy, the opinions of both the odious boss, and the company owner, in the 1980 movie 9 to 5, are still all too real.

  67. 567
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    That asshole jenny633a has spewed shit once again. Funny that PZ hasn’t banned hir for ‘disagreement’ as so many of PZs detractors whine about. One would almost think PZ bans people for something more significant.

    Perhaps our nightly troll will weigh in when he drops by.

  68. 568
    Snoof

    That asshole jenny633a has spewed shit once again. Funny that PZ hasn’t banned hir for ‘disagreement’ as so many of PZs detractors whine about. One would almost think PZ bans people for something more significant.

    She also has this weird… thing about nudity/nakedness.

  69. 569
    chigau (違う)

    This
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturism
    is not such a good idea at -5°C.
    even less at -40.

  70. 570
    Snoof

    It’s not a great idea here in the skin cancer capital of the world, either. Fucking ozone holes.

  71. 571
    Athywren

    I wonder why there aren’t any MRAs [that I have yet seen] speaking out about Ben Radford dumping those pictures to the internet or ‘revenge porn’ in general?
    It kinda seems, to me, like, as this happens more, guys are going to have a harder time getting their hands on those kinds of pictures of their partners, and surely that’s a pressing men’s rights issue?

  72. 572
    Athywren

    Although… now that I give it a few moment’s more thought, it’s probably the fact that their actions have consequences that’s the men’s rights issue, and the actions themselves are probably men’s human rights in their own right, so never mind… forget I said anything. I forgot who I was talking about.

  73. 573
    Lofty

    Nakedness allows mozzies to latch onto even more bare skin than I feel comfortable with. Clothes are useful.

  74. 574
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @Tomas C #482

    You shoudl consider different views of feminism.

    What on Earth makes you think I haven’t?

  75. 575
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @Tomas C #507

    I wasn’t criticising any feminist in particular.

    That’s the fucking point, you moron. You’re arguing against straw feminists; they don’t exist, they’re just the stereotypical feminist archetype that anti-feminists have constructed from several singular offensive views held by individual feminists, and you have swallowed it whole and decided you are against feminism. That’s why we keep asking you to provide real world examples which demonstrate the views which you are convinced are held by feminists worldwide are actually held by feminists worldwide. You have so far, unsuprisingly, conclusively failed to do so.

  76. 576
    Athywren

    @Thumper

    What on Earth makes you think I haven’t?

    You disagree with him about what feminism means. He gets his information about feminism from Thunderf00t and libertarianisms. Thunderf00t and libertarianisms are logic incarnate, as demonstrated by the fact that they think they are. Therefore Thunderf00t and libertarianisms cannot be wrong, since being logic incarnate means that you’re immune to logical blind spots. Therefore you are wrong, since you disagree with them. Therefore you haven’t considered different views, since otherwise you’d be right.
    QED!

  77. 577
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    There is this british guy named thunderf00t who does this series I watch about them.

    BWAAAAAAHAHAhahahahahaha *ROFL*

    Oh, this explains so much.

  78. 578
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @Athywren

    I suspect you have his logic down pat.

    Jesus, I’ve had trouble taking Tomas seriously for ages, but after that fucking gem about Thunderf00t I think any chance is gone.

  79. 579
    SallyStrange

    Never fear, Athywren. I hear that A Voice For Men has taken up Ben Radford’s cause. Second-hand information there, haven’t checked it out myself.

  80. 580
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    This story will make you want to kick baby panda bears.

    The curricula adopted by the school district in Oxford called on students to unwrap a piece of chocolate, pass it around class and observe how dirty it became.
    “They’re using the Peppermint Pattie to show that a girl is no longer clean or valuable after she’s had sex — that she’s been used,” said Barnard, who works in public health. “That shouldn’t be the lesson we send kids about sex.”

  81. 581
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    There is this british guy named thunderf00t who does this series I watch about them.

    oh good grief

  82. 582
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    oh god fucking damnit, the motherfucking auto-playing piece of shit Noah advertisement video is going to make me kill something.

  83. 583
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Nerd:

    Well, considering that the exit ramp goes in circles….

    Sounds about right for where I am right now.

    Sallystrange:

    . I hear that A Voice For Men has taken up Ben Radford’s cause.

    Don’t even have to go there to already have a good idea the tack they are taking.

  84. 584
    Athywren

    @Thumper, 578

    I suspect you have his logic down pat.

    Well… like I said earlier, I used to be a fan of the noisy-footed one. I was an atheist for a very long time before I became a skeptic, at least before I became skeptical about more than creationism and fairies. I have some experience with the “but-but-but… HE said it… so it must be true!” thing. It helped that, at the time, he was mostly right since he was mostly sticking to science… but he still said some ridiculous shit that drifted right past my head unchallenged. Blergh.

    @SallyStrange, 579

    I hear that A Voice For Men has taken up Ben Radford’s cause.

    Seemingly not… I just went over there and added to their sphere of “look at all the peeple who agree with us! We must be right!” They have a link to his legal page thingie, but no commentary on it that I could see. Some other things, but I have no interest in pulling my hair out today. Though I would like to say that I find it interesting that, apparently, 20% female only + 18% male and female = almost 40% female. That’s some strange math.

    @Rev. BigDumbChimp, 580

    The curricula adopted by the school district in Oxford called on students to unwrap a piece of chocolate, pass it around class and observe how dirty it became.
    “They’re using the Peppermint Pattie to show that a girl is no longer clean or valuable after she’s had sex — that she’s been used,” said Barnard, who works in public health. “That shouldn’t be the lesson we send kids about sex.”

    So… if you want your chocolate to stay clean as you pass it around, make sure there’s some form of barrier in place? And, if you want to keep your body clean as you have sex with people, make sure there’s some form of barrier in place?
    I know it’s meant to be an abstinence only talk, but it kinda seems like they’re making the case for condoms right there.

  85. 585
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    I know it’s meant to be an abstinence only talk, but it kinda seems like they’re making the case for condoms right there.

    Yep.

    But of course they have to show how dirty the woman is, because penises are naturally antiseptic. duh.

  86. 586
    Athywren

    But of course they have to show how dirty the woman is, because penises are naturally antiseptic. duh.

    Apparently this is true! There was a guy on reddit a while ago who was talking about how women need to clean themselves up if they expect him to have sex with them! Of course, he doesn’t have to wear a condom, because reasons. His backing for this entirely logical position was that men get more throat cancers than women and, since some proportion of throat cancers are related to oral sex, then obviously women are filthy and need to tidy themselves up. Trufax! Yay logic!

  87. 587
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @Rev. 580

    I can at least take some personal solace in the fact it is not Oxford, England, as i first assumed… but still, godsfuckendammit! That’s so not OK. I hate this fucking purity culture bullshit the religious and the right insist on propagating.

  88. 588
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @Athywren

    His backing for this entirely logical position was that men get more throat cancers than women and, since some proportion of throat cancers are related to oral sex, then obviously women are filthy and need to tidy themselves up. Trufax! Yay logic!

    Right, that’s it, I’m done. Stop the planet! I’m getting off!

  89. 589
    birgerjohansson

    Now I know how Cyberdyne Systems design the eyes for their hunter-killer models:
    “Color pixels made of nanowires offer new paradigm for digital cameras” http://phys.org/news/2014-04-pixels-nanowires-paradigm-digital-cameras.html

  90. 590
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Right, that’s it, I’m done. Stop the planet! I’m getting off!

    I had the same reaction to Jennynumbers. Still looking for the exit ramp.

  91. 591
    birgerjohansson

    “This is not such a good idea at -5°C.
    even less at -40.”

    Unless you have acid for blood. I have never seen a xenomorph wear clothes.

    — — — — — —
    I thought jenny633a sounded very weird, but I thought it might be a wossname, someone parodying a wing nut.

  92. 592
    birgerjohansson

    May no one ever confuse jenny633a with Jenny Sparks, a very cool (fictional) character. Who eats misogynic people for lunch.

  93. 593
    birgerjohansson

    So this is why we never find those computer chips the aliens implant into their victim’s brains:
    “Scientist developing materials, electronics that dissolve when triggered” http://phys.org/news/2014-04-scientist-materials-electronics-dissolve-triggered.html

  94. 594
    opposablethumbs

    I am (obviously) open to correction, but I believe throat cancer in Japan used to be (is???) more prevalent among men than women because they were (are …) More Important and hence get to eat first when the food is piping hot while women, being Less Important, eat last when the food is cooler. Is this a myth, or is there anything to it – perhaps someone(s) in the Horde could say?

  95. 595
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    “Scientist developing materials, electronics that dissolve when triggered”

    But I tend to dissolve when triggered . . . .

  96. 596
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @Ogvorbis #590

    Today has been too much. I spent the morning arguing with some manchild who is so clueless he thinks that Libertarianism is a workable political philosophy and that the MRM have a point, Karen stollznow’s story, then jenny, then the new Harvard story, then Rev’s story, then Athywren’s quote… bah. My faith in humanity is at an all time low, and I am angry. I can feel the cynicism welling up inside me.

    @birgerjohansson #591

    I think you mean a poe. But no, she’s dead serious, and therefore a complete idiot.

  97. 597
    opposablethumbs

    Hang in there, Ogvorbis. I wish I knew what more to say, but hang in there.

  98. 598
    ChasCPeterson

    I hear that A Voice For Men has taken up Ben Radford’s cause.

    The odious pitizen ‘Mykeru’ has been lobbying them hard to take it up. There is a surprising amount of pushback among other pitizens to allying up with AVfM, but it’s moot.

  99. 599
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Thanks for the support.

    [TRIGGER WARNING]

    I have been (obviously) struggling for a few years, trying to come to grips with what was done to me, what was done through me, and what I did. Understanding the idea of a magician’s choice has helped. Right now, though, I have been remembering times when my rapist told me, asked me, “What do you want to do now?” OF course, nothing was not an option. So I got to ‘choose’ what I was going to do to S, or what I wanted the rapist to do to me. And I volunteered what I wanted him to do to me. I made suggestions. I participated fully in my own abuse. And I’m having a hard time dealing with this.

    [/TRIGGER WARNING]

  100. 600
    MattP (must mock his crappy brain)

    @birgerjohansson, 589
    Very cool and will be very nice to have in the lab whenever they achieve high reliability, high density manufacturing. Real-time multispectral imaging without a bunch of bandpass coatings or a tunable-LCD filter would be an awesome thing to have.

    Adding to my desire for the exit ramp was that one of the ‘popular’ link stories was more bullshit ‘supporting’ circumcision. Felt a bit like slc was in the comments there with the ‘too many people’ who are anti-circumcision are also both anti-semitic and anti-israel.

  101. 601
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @Ogvorbis #599

    “I participated fully in my own abuse. ”

    Not sure if this is really my place, so tell me to shut up if you want; but I disagree. Being told “I am going to do a horrible thing to you. Pick what horrible thing you would like to be done” isn’t really a choice. If you tell someone “I am going to cut off a body part. Pick which body part.” and force them to make that choice, you wouldn’t then say they participated in their own mutilation. Equally, it’s not at all fair to say you participated in your own abuse, or the abuse of others. As you say, “Nothing” is hardly an option in that situation. He presented you with the illusion of choice in order to kid himself in to believing you were participating, when in reality he held all the strings. He manipulated you, plain and simple. It’s not your fault.

    Man, I hate thinking what you must have gone through, and are still going through :( *offers cyberhugs*

  102. 602
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Thumper, it’s not so much that he actually said, “I’m going to hurt you, you tell me how,” but rather, “We’re together, what do you want to do?” or “You and she are here, what do you want to do to her?” And I answered.

  103. 603
    Seven of Mine, formerly piegasm

    @Ogvorbis

    Seconding Thumper. Being asked to choose which horrible thing is going to be done to you is no choice at all. You were just surviving as best you could. <3

  104. 604
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    Ogvorbis; I understand he wouldn’t have been that explicit, because that removes the illusion he’s trying to set up: that of you being a willing participant. But the implication was there, so in reality that is the choice you were given. If “nothing” is not an option, then you don’t really have a choice. Having followed your link now, I’d say that describes it pretty well. It was the illusion of choice, not an actual choice.

    You answered because you had to, because you knew that “Nothing” or “no” were not options. You didn’t participate, you were forced to participate. You’re not to blame here.

  105. 605
    anteprepro

    Ogvorbis, I’m seconding Thumper. I’m going to add something, and I hope I’m not stepping out of my place or accidentally saying something that causes more distress.

    You didn’t participate fully, or even freely, in your abuse. You were forced to participate in your own abuse as part of the abuse. It was all part of that sick fuck’s power trip. The magician’s choice is a good example of that kind of manipulation. But it is also more than that, because it wasn’t just the illusion of choice: you were coerced and intimidated into something you didn’t want to do, even if the illusion of choice was given in order to fuck with your head more. The abuser used a legitimate fear that you would get worse if you didn’t “choose” and if you defied him to get you to play along.

    It can’t be easy, but we all sometimes overestimate how much control we have over a situation. There is little you could have done, Ogvorbis. The same is true for most abuse victims, but abusers are control freaks and often cunning and sociopathic. They make sure there are no escape routes. It is easier said than done, but I hope that over time you will be able to stop so much of the blame where it doesn’t belong: on you. You are stronger and a far better person than you give yourself credit for. If you are “failing at being human”, than I don’t think their insults fitting enough to describe about 60% of humankind! I hope that even if the wounds can’t heal, that you can at least some day find a semblance of peace. You deserve more than that, so it is a small wish on your behalf.

  106. 606
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Thumper; it all comes down to choice. He didn’t always make me choose, I volunteered to choose. The magician’s choice covers me when I chose to abuse another child — I could be abused or be the abuser, inflict pain or suffer pain. But when it was just him and me, I offered. And I see this as yet another example of failure. Sorry.

  107. 607
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    antepropro; I know it was a power trip. I know it was games. And I played those games.

    Some days I feel like I don’t deserve any semblance of peace.

  108. 608
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    Mate, don’t apologise.

    But that’s a different situation. He groomed you, you offered because he had you so well “trained”, for want of a better word. Again, you think you had a choice, but you didn’t really. You played the game because you had to. Because he taught you that not playing meant things would be bad for you. You had no control over that situation. It is not your fault.

  109. 609
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    Anyway, I’m really sorry mate but I have to be off. I hope you feel better, and please stop blaming yourself.I know that’s easy for me to say and hard for you to do, but you’re a decent guy and I hate to see you like this.

  110. 610
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    well, anteprepro beat me to it.

    What were the odds?

    But yes. I’d only add, Og, that interpreting the past as allowing your more choice and agency than you had is a normal human response to trauma.

    If it was your choice, then you can simply choose better in the future. If it was not your choice, is you couldn’t have done anything about it, well, you’re blameless, but you’re also admitting that there are times when you couldn’t stop it.

    That’s admitting that someone could do this to you again – which triggers all our fears. We’d rather believe that we had agency and are evil than that our choices were cut off by the superior power of another, for that other, of course, might establish superior power over us again.

    What you went through was horrible. It was so horrible that the thought that you might not be able to stop it happening again is more horrible than believing yourself a willing, accountable participant in evil.

    I understand the draw of finding agency in our darkest hours. I also know where it leads for humans of good will: a desperate need to hold ourselves accountable.

    I won’t lie to you, in the environment of fear in which you lived, there were nonetheless some choices for which you can be held (contextually) accountable. Maybe there was one trip where your parents said you didn’t have to go, but you chose to do so for whatever reason, and abuse happened. Possibly even to others. In this hypothetical the choice to go on the trip might have placed a tool in the hands of an abusive person. It still didn’t cause the abuse. This is someone that would have abused whether or not he ever met you.

    I love you, Og. I’m perfectly happy to hold you accountable. One of the ways I’m doing that is holding you accountable for blaming your “choice” instead of the abuser. This is rape culture in action, victim blaming at its finest. Because we do it to ourselves and the appeal of a power to make sure it never happens again is so strong. But getting something positive – a feeling of safety, however illusory – out of it does not negate that it is, at bottom, a tactic of blaming victims.

    This is something I do all the time to myself. My fears of horrific trauma are so great that I, too, would rather be at fault but safe. But let’s choose differently, you and I. Every so often – no set schedule, there is no failing here – we can each feel the self blame and then remind ourselves that, no, this is the fault of the choices of the jerkwad abuser, not my own. We can do it a few times and see if we can do the next few a little faster, a little more automatically, at a little higher rate compared to the opportunities provided by our moments of self-blame.

    We can fight victim blaming, fight rape culture, fight for a better world without leaving our own heads. Then we can see each other back here and love each other like hell when our sobs drown out our inner voices and fight victim blaming, fight rape culture, fight for a better world for the whole damn internet to see simply with the quality of our love and mutual support.

    I’ll do my part. Why not take my hand and wait for another one of those hateful, self-blaming messages, then take the opportunity to do yours?

    While I sit here.

    Loving you.

    Ogvorbis.

  111. 611
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    TW

    He took me by the hand, over to a human being, a little girl, S, about four, maybe five years old, and he asked me what I wanted to do. What I wanted. What I wanted. And I can remember actually wanting to use her for my own pleasure. I was nine or ten years old. And had already failed to be a human being. Oh, I am so sorry. So sorry.

  112. 612
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    And, Ogvorbis, I am not saying that that feeling is anything but contemptible. I am saying that you are other than contemptible because as true as that memory may be, you prioritize remembering certain things based on your needs. You are remembering all the things that make you accountable, because those are the things that make you powerful enough to stop it from happening again. You are less likely to remember everything else that was going on at the same time, including implied threats and your own thoughts about the relief of doing to instead of being the object acted on.

    I don’t know that those other thoughts existed, but I want you to consider whether it is really safe to allow yourself to think that this was something you couldn’t stop.

    If it’s not safe to think that. If that brings on panic, then perhaps you shouldn’t be trusting your memory to have created a realistic portrayal of Og at 9 and 10.

    I’m glad you’re sorry. I’m horrified that you think this makes you a human failure today.

    I know you’re lovable, Og. I know it because I love you.

  113. 613
    Inaji

    Ogvorbis:

    But when it was just him and me, I offered.

    Yeah…

    I did that with the family member who was raping me, Ogvorbis. The whole time, you’re being trained, and the grooming is effective. Highly so. It’s hardly unusual for an abused child to look to please their abuser, that’s actually standard behaviour. So yes, it’s a choice, however, it’s a choice in an extremely limited circle of choices. We all have to look out for ourselves, to find a way to survive psychically as well as physically. Looking back on those choices makes me feel like shit, that I didn’t do the right thing at all, however, now I’m not in a situation of constant threat. Now, I’m much bigger. Now, I have the tools to fight. Something else I have now – understanding of just how little actual choice I had as a child. I did what I had to do. So did you, Ogvorbis. Still loves you.

  114. 614
    rq

    ♥ for Ogvorbis, just so you know you have all of my support and a heck of a lot of my love.

  115. 615
    chigau (違う)

    Oggie
    Listen to Ináji.

  116. 616
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @chigau, who said:

    Oggie
    Listen to Ináji.

    Always a good idea.

  117. 617
    Athywren

    Ogvorbis, I know I don’t know you, and I don’t know the details, so I’m not going to pretend to. I’ll just keep this brief and try to avoid saying anything monumentally stupid.

    The whole point of manipulative, abusive behaviour is to shift the blame for as much as possible onto you. So they can say that you were the initiator – that you seduced them, that you were the one abusing others, that somehow you were the one to blame for everything. It’s all so that they can walk away happily, conscience wiped clean, and leave you to face the consequences for their actions. You can’t be responsible for what happens, even for what you do, when the whole world is being twisted around you by that kind of abusive manipulation.
    I hope you do find peace, because everything I’ve ever seen from you has shown me a good person. One who does deserve peace.

  118. 618
    anteprepro

    Oggie

    , and he asked me what I wanted to do. What I wanted. What I wanted

    He taught you to “want” that. He expected you to think in that way, because that is what he did to you, and what he was implying he would do to you and possibly her as well if you answered wrong. He didn’t so much ask “what do you want to do” as much as really ask “what do I expect you to want and what do I expect you to do, given everything else I have shown you.” Leading questions coupled with indoctrination, abuse, and intimidation.

    She was his victim. He was the one who forced you into thinking sexually and coerced you into acting upon those thoughts. He was the one with all the power, pulling all the strings, and God knows what he would have done if you tried to deviate from the script, and ruin what he fully intended to make happen. He was the victimizer, and you were both a victim and a tool for further victimization.

  119. 619
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Ogvorbis
    *hugs* support and love. Inaji et al. have the right of it.

  120. 620
    SallyStrange

    I don’t think you were failing at being human, Ogvorbis. Why? Because I still remember, and feel bad about, the time when I held my brother down and kissed him against his will. I believe I was 12 at the time, making him about 9 or 10. I was simply curious about what kissing would be like. So I sexually assaulted my little brother. (Obviously I didn’t realize that’s what it was at the time.) If that sort of thing can happen unprompted to a child who has not been trained and groomed and traumatized by a sexual harasser, then I can only imagine what a child who has been trained that way could do. We all need help learning how to treat other people right. Getting the opposite–help learning how to treat other people badly–leaves you without much to work with on that front.

  121. 621
    Jackie

    Oggie,

    Listen to Ináji.

    ^this

  122. 622
    opposablethumbs

    Ináji is right, and Crip Dyke @610 and 612 has taken my breath away. Ogvorbis, you have made yourself into a decent adult who does some good in the world – the most any of us can aspire to, and more than most of us achieve. IN SPITE OF having been appallingly abused as a child. I’m stealing CD’s words, but yes of course I’m glad you’re sorry. I also think it’s fucking amazing that you managed to make yourself into the adult who is sorry. I hope that you and the other victims manage to stop suffering. Even in the light of everything you have said, you were the means he used to abuse others, and your coerced participation was the means he used to further abuse you. Maybe you even came close to becoming like him – he certainly tried hard enough – but your truly amazing achievement was that you did not become like him.

  123. 623
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Ogvorbis, your rapist was abusing you for a long time. Your rapist brought in an other victim. Your rapist spent time teaching you what was expected of you. You rapist was in control the entire time. You did not seek her out and brought her to him. You were just as much a victim as was that girl.

    As an adult, have you engaged in such activity? If not, you have made yourself better than what you rapist wanted you to be. It cannot be helped that you feel bad about her. But you did not bring her in that situation.

    I wish I could bring peace to you and to her.

  124. 624
    ChasCPeterson

    [Do not name pseudonymous commenters. --pzm]

  125. 625
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Chas
    More friendly advice from the king of NOT FUCKING HELPING, eh? We have found yet another topic on which the best thing you can do is SHUT THE FUCK UP.

  126. 626
    Seven of Mine, formerly piegasm

    Chas, GTFO. Who the fuck are you to tell people who aren’t you what they need? Fucking self-important, entitled ass.

  127. 627
    Jacob Schmidt

    1) Good advice; therapists can be very beneficial.

    2) What does this have anything to do with anything?

    3) “Need” is an irrelevant weasel word. Very few things are actually necessary. It does seem to be helpful, however; I’m not sure why you think we should dismiss unnecessary helpful things.

  128. 628
    chigau (違う)

    Could all you newbes please stop yelling at Chas.

  129. 629
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    I am hoping that Ogvorbis is seeing or will see a therapist about this. He needs the help that we here cannot provide for him. But I am happy to provide what little help that listening and responding can do.

    The only reason why I would give for to Ogvorbis stop talking about this is that there are malicious people who are lying about him and about us for associating with him. But they would be lying about us no matter what.

  130. 630
    Weedless Monkey

    chigau

    Could all you newbes please stop yelling at Chas.

    Why?

  131. 631
    Inaji

    Lofty:

    Trolls be nocturnal cos they can’t stand the scrutiny of broad daylight.

    I resent this comment, and this sentiment in general. I’m awake right now, at 6:55 a.m. because I’ve been working all night. I am nocturnal, not diurnal, and I’m sick and tired of people assigning all bad things to those of us who are nocturnal. There’s nothing all that fucking splendid about being diurnal, like most every other person on the planet.

    I’ll also point out the global nature of the internet – people aren’t all on the same fucking time, y’know.

  132. 632
    Lofty

    Inaji

    I’ll also point out the global nature of the internet – people aren’t all on the same fucking time, y’know.

    No kidding. It’s nearly 11pm here and it definitely ain’t light outside. And I’m poking a stick at trolls not night owls.
    Good evening/night/morning/afternoon to you all, depending on your timezone.

  133. 633
    Al Dente

    There’s nothing wrong with being nocturnal. If it’s good enough for wombats, two-toed sloths and cockroaches then it’s good enough for anyone.

  134. 634
    Athywren

    Star gazers are also nocturnal. The night is a beautiful thing. :3

  135. 635
    Inaji

    Athywren:

    The night is a beautiful thing.

    Yes, it is.

  136. 636
    Dhorvath, OM

    So is the morning. Well, at least for some people.
    ___

    I think I am going back to school. Toured the local university campus yesterday and I have buzz. If I can keep it buzzing and with a little luck from admissions a September start will follow. Yay me!

  137. 637
  138. 638
    SallyStrange

    Well I’m not a noob so I’m going to continue yelling at Chas. How much of an old-timer do I have to be to give the noobs total permission to give Chas as much shit as it takes for him to stop being an ass to everyone?

  139. 639
    Dhorvath, OM

    And I ought to have read farther up.

    Ogvorbis, I have naught to offer save eyes to read your words. And they will because you are worth knowing. Take care.

  140. 640
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    I have clearly not explored the wiki. A people section -of course there had to be! *

    And now Og is immortalized there! Right next to such luminaries as Sandiseattle! Oh, may I someday be so immortalized as to be remembered in the same electronic breath as John Kwok! Perhaps I may even earn myself a Leica Rangefinder with my astute commentary. Oh, the breathless anticipation of such a day makes living til such a day impossible.

    No, really. It does. Or would. Breathless, y’know.

    *Please note that this is me having fun with the people section, not with our beloved Oggie, who compares favorably in Ms Oggies eyes with such notable cuties as bees.

  141. 641
    anteprepro

    Also, what is the delineation of noob and non-noob? I have only been commenting regularly since the creation of FTB, but I’ve been a regular reader since 2006 or 2007 or so. When is the required start date for reading and for commenting to be considered a True Regular? Is there also a Posting Frequency factor? Or is it just the simple of equation of “Your Name is Familiar” x “I Like Your Comments”?

  142. 642
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    And we now have a commenter named “untarded”?

    Oh, joy.

  143. 643
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    I think that if you are preanteprepro, you are by definition not noob.

    If you are postanteprepro, you are by definition noob.

    If you are, however, anteprepro, you can only comment about chas after getting permission from a neither-live-nor-dead cat.

    Prefixes: that’s how they work.

  144. 644
    Athywren

    I’m also curious as to what makes a person a noob… I know I’m an outsider, since even my bursts of frequent commenting are infrequent, and comments from me between those periods are few and far between, but I’ve been a reader for years – probably similar timing to anteprepro – and even commented at least twice in the scienceblogs days. Maybe even as many as three times!
    Mind you, I also have no idea what Chas said, and so won’t be yelling anyways.

  145. 645
    Inaji

    Chigau:

    http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Ogvorbis

    *shrug* I don’t have to refer to the wiki to know or remember the nym Ogvorbis first used here, I remember those sorts of things, like you remember Sven and I remember Kiyaroru. That doesn’t mean that Chas using a former nym is okay. If he simply can’t help himself and must comment, he can use people’s current nyms. Shouldn’t be a big deal.

  146. 646
    anteprepro

    Crip Dyke, I don’t think my nym needs more prefixes.

    (A while back, somebody rendered my nym as apt retro. I kinda wish that I had actually made that my real nym!)

    Athywren, funny! I also commented once or twice in sb days. A different nym, around Crackergate. Pharyngula was too scary for me back then to really dive in, though!

  147. 647
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @anteprepro:

    A while back, somebody rendered my nym as apt retro. I kinda wish that I had actually made that my real nym!

    Not too late!

    or is that advice … outdated?

  148. 648
    anteprepro

    Crip Dyke, with me, nothing is ever outdated :P

  149. 649
    chigau (違う)

    Inaji
    When I googled pharyngula brother billy, the wiki is the first thing that came up.

  150. 650
    Jackie

    chigau,
    Chas is a flaming asshat. Why don’t you sit him down and ask him to change his behavior?

  151. 651
    chigau (違う)

    Jackie
    In all the years I’ve been here Chas has never taken my advice.
    I don’t have any reason to think he’ll start now.

  152. 652
    brianpansky

    well now that there’s a nice lull in the thunderdome hurricane:

    I saw your last message to me Crip Dyke, and yes I might want sometime to do more discussion of gender stuff.

  153. 653
    birgerjohansson

    Night watching:

    Around dusk April 5-7 the moon will pass beneath Jupiter, which will itself be underneath Pollux and Castor.
    .
    Before dawn 14-17 the crescent moon will get close to the horizon, near Venus. I think Mars will be visible thereabouts (but low in the sky) too.
    .
    Violets are red, roses are blue
    Metamaterials http://xkcd.com/1351/

  154. 654
    chigau (違う)

    Geese!

  155. 655
    Athywren

    Pharyngula was too scary for me back then to really dive in, though!

    I know, right? Everyone’s so smart, and they know what they’re talking about… and if you make a mistake, they will see it, and they will tear you apart, like those Scarab beetles in The Mummy! And I am nowhere near smart enough to not make mistakes… but that’s why I love this place, now. I don’t mind the idea that I might be wrong if I’m commenting here, because somebody will probably spot it, and I’ll be corrected. It makes this place very comfortable.

    @birgerjohansson
    Not that you probably need it, seeing as you already know where/when to look for those, but I like this site for a quick and easy astronomy guide:
    http://astronomycentral.co.uk/planets-to-see-in-the-sky-tonight/

  156. 656
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Ogvorbos
    *leaving you a pile of hugs*
    That kid you were then would not be considered mature enough in some countries to ride a bike on the street. That kid you were then would not be considered mature enough here to walk into a shop and buy a Playstation. That kid you were then would not be considered mature enough to watch the Lord of the Rings here. There are very good reasons for that. You judge yourself now with the moral understanding and the mental capacities of an adult. You were not an adult back then.

  157. 657
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @Athywren:

    I don’t mind the idea that I might be wrong if I’m commenting here, because somebody will probably spot it, and I’ll be corrected. It makes this place very comfortable.

    Yep. I just made a mistake on the nature of privacy torts in the US, and qwints totally set me right.

    Now? I’m smarter. Thank you, Pharyngula!

  158. 658
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    chigau 629
    I’m sure it’s within my capacity, and if he ever stops being such a total flaming asshole, I might even consider actually doing such a thing.

  159. 659
    Seven of Mine, formerly piegasm

    In other news: I’m installing a new SSD + Windows 8 right now. Everybody cross your fingers that I don’t melt my PC.

    D:

  160. 660
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Not a defense of Chas but an example of the scumfuckery of some people.

    Warning, above links to a dimension more vile than our own.

  161. 661
    Athywren

    I’ll sacrifice a penguin to Clippy for you, Seven of Mine.

  162. 662
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Okay, Janine. Now Imma gonna charge you for a gallon of brain bleach.

  163. 663
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Crip Dyke, I did warn you it was vile.

    I fucking hate how that bonehead and his friends misrepresent that. Dishonest bunch of shitstains.

  164. 664
    Athywren

    Heh, today is the first day that I looked at the #FTBullies hashtag.
    So I very often worry that I’m on the wrong side of most issues, because you can never be completely sure that you’re not making basic mistakes or falling into lazy thinking… but, yeah… no. Quote mines, misrepresentations, poop-flinging and cheap cartoons… something tells me I’m not wrong to avoid that brand of “skepticism.”
    I do like the one saying ‘PZ Myers thinks separation of church and state is “trivial”,’ though. Gotta laugh at the inanity of that.

  165. 665
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    The person who “invented” the term FTBullies (He is very proud of that act.) is known for leading acts of rebellion that only happens in his cramped imagination.

    Also, full disclosure time, I have been labeled a “woman abuser” by this fine example of humanity.

  166. 666
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Althywren, you should have provided a link to where PZ claimed that separation of church and state is trivial. It really is rather funny.

    And look here, there liar knows he is lying because he is mere poking at PZ. A true comedian.

  167. 667
  168. 668
    Athywren

    @Janine
    As misnomical rebrandings of this site go, I think I preferred GroupThink Blogs. At least that one demonstrated a degree of wit.

    Given that all the demonstrations of the abusiveness, closed-mindedness and general evil that I’ve seen referring to this place revolve around the idea that criticising someone for what they say or do is a terrible thing, I wouldn’t be surprised if the woman abuse you’ve engaged in was pointing out that she said something ridiculous, then got annoyed when she dug her heels in, declaring that her statement can’t have been bad, because she’s been treated badly by a third party. I’m not going to assume that’s true, because, obviously, I don’t know the details of what you’re talking about… I just wouldn’t be surprised, given the things that I have been told in the past with the expectation that I would see the light about how awful everyone here is.

  169. 669
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    The same idiot using #FTBullies because he does know what else to do. Actually, this is common. Many will add the hashtag out of habit.

    Also, some seem to think that Suey Park is a FTBully.

    And an other asked a random person named Paul Myers is he was part of this.

  170. 670
    Athywren

    My face hurts now. Damn you, Janine!
    They really don’t expect the people who listen to them to fact check them, do they? Skepticism at work!!

  171. 671
    Seven of Mine, formerly piegasm

    Also, some seem to think that Suey Park is a FTBully.

    Does this predate the whole Colbert thing? If not, I bet that’s the source of it.

  172. 672
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    I am sorry about my obsession here but I was not aware of this person until today. And I am struck by how his dishonesty is matched only by his stupidity.

  173. 673
    Seven of Mine, formerly piegasm

    They really don’t expect the people who listen to them to fact check them, do they? Skepticism at work!!

    The other night our resident morph claimed the A+ forums were “so dead lol” as if I couldn’t just go look and find out that there were 30+ active threads with hundreds of replies and thousands of views.

  174. 674
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    This is the last one, I promise.

    I have no idea which is worse. That he understands what he is reading and is knowingly lying or if he truly does not understand what he is reading.

  175. 675
    Seven of Mine, formerly piegasm

    The funny thing about that tweet is that PZ does, now and again, use problematic language but these shitwits wouldn’t know it if it bit them on the ass. So they seize on inane shit like pretend th-fronting, thinking they’re all clever.

  176. 676
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    This person is both a member of the pit and of AVfM. And this is typical of what he presents. If I remember correctly, he did get the banhammer years ago.

  177. 677
    Athywren

    Oh, wow. AstrokidNJ and others thought this was representative of feminism, and they think the poe’s law explains why they didn’t understand that it isn’t. No. No, you didn’t understand that it’s not because you have zero understanding of feminism, as is demonstrated by tweets like this. That’s right, kids! Patriarchy is an organisation with a leader, and that leader is the US president. Fucking hell, how do they ignorant so well?

  178. 678
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @Athywren:

    As a sideline graphic to that “feminist” article:

    Study Shows Racists More Likely To Read Click-Bait!

    If only they had prepended “shocking” to the headline.

  179. 679
    Seven of Mine, formerly piegasm

    They really are just like young earth creationists who get all their info about science from AIG.

  180. 680
    Jacob Schmidt

    Looking throiugh the links above, I found this:

    You are drowning in a sea of confusing advice, prescription meds and chronic insecurity. You’re obsessed with your appearance and ruled by your unstable emotions. You dread talking to women, resent your peers and couldn’t care less about the world.
    In short, you feel stuck and unable to do anything about it. Your frustration is understandable.
    We’re here to cut through the bullshit.
    Manhood Academy is the only accredited worldwide social education center in existence today. It is specifically designed to teach men like you how to create satisfying relationships. And best of all—our content is ABSOLUTELY FREE. Whether it’s going on a first date, creating friendships with classmates, saving a troubled marriage, addressing your girlfriend’s [filtered] behavior, dealing with an unreasonable mother, motivating your employees, or standing up for yourself in this emasculating feminist environment, our goal is to teach you how to form the best relationships possible!

    It reads like a blatant scam, like those “How to get free live cam’s” or “How to make $364 an hour from home” popups that litter the internet.

    Also, how the fuck are they accredited? What organization oversees that? How can they possible be the only accredited one: “accredited” implies there’s a standard, and if only one group adhere’s to it, then it isn’t much of a standard.

  181. 681
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @Jacob Schmidt:

    Several friends have accredited them with getting a date. Several.

  182. 682
    SallyStrange

    Why is Chas not banned after that display of bullying? Seriously.

  183. 683
    anteprepro

    Wow, the A* segment of the Twittosphere sure is fucking spiteful and inane. They are able to generate a massive amount of incoherent outrage out of imagined slights. They just hate because they hate because they hate. They don’t really have any reasons, it is just pure Rage all the way down, and every single thing they bring up isn’t so much a critique as just a pretty picture that they think looks interesting through their Rage Googles. It very much reminds me of creationists. An irrational basis without justification, corrupting any piece of evidence and spinning it to better suit their worldview, denial of incoherent facts or arguments, selective skepticism, obsession with a select few targets, reliance on style over substance, use of “humor” in order to avoid actually making an argument rather than as an addition to arguments, thriving on vagueness and lack of specifics, quote mining, and a willingness to co-opt scientific authority coupled with an allergy to actually basing their arguments on grounds on which there is robust, factual basis.

    Basically, they are bullshitters with no basis in reality that are lying to themselves because it is more simple and emotionally satisfying than dealing with reality.

  184. 684
    Inaji

    SallyStrange:

    Why is Chas not banned after that display of bullying? Seriously.

    I don’t know, however, now I’m quite glad the comment was disappeared before I arrived.

  185. 685
    chigau (違う)

    Chas suggested that Ogvorbis get professional therapy.
    Chas referred to Ogvorbis by a previous ‘nym.

  186. 686
    Seven of Mine, formerly piegasm

    Well that’s an extremely charitable characterization of what Chas said…

  187. 687
    Inaji

    Chigau:

    Chas suggested that Ogvorbis get professional therapy.

    Ogvorbis will do that when and if he feels it’s time. I’m sure Chas was all upset about icky emotions invading his thunderdome again. Perhaps Chas should indulge in professional therapy.

  188. 688
    anteprepro

    A video in the twittoverse has this in the description: “Why are so many young men injured and killed by overprotective fathers for trivial and non-violent offenses? ”

    lolwut? Making up a Violence Crisis, probably largely based on stereotypical behavior on TV and in movies, and ignoring, ya know, actual massive rates of domestic violence? No, don’t worry about fathers abusing children, or boyfriends beating girlfriends. Don’t worry about rape. Worry about a girlfriend’s father beating the boyfriend for no reason! Because that is totally thing that happens often! Men’s Rights!!!

  189. 689
    Seven of Mine, formerly piegasm

    and I’m sure the “trivial and non-violent offenses” involves playing fast and loose with the concept of consent.

  190. 690
    anteprepro

    and I’m sure the “trivial and non-violent offenses” involves playing fast and loose with the concept of consent.

    True, I bet that is the case in a good chunk of the cases of this that actually do exist. But regardless, I don’t have any reason to believe that this is a significant subset of violent activity that should be worried about, focused upon, and should be anywhere on anybody’s statistical radars. It’s a complete and utter manufactured issue, which is just what the Menz love to do. Manufacturing false issues in order to complain about how Men are the True Victims is their fucking bread and butter.

  191. 691
    chigau (違う)

    I think I should sober-up before I make any final decisions.

  192. 692
    Athywren

    Time and time again, listening to, reading or watching that lot, I’m reminded of this scene from Sword In The Stone:

  193. 693
    David Marjanović

    On the topic of feminism, on the grand scale of reliability of sources, tvtropes might rate a zero, as in utterly useless and inappropriate.

    I don’t think so. Plenty of trigger warnings.

    This story will make you want to kick baby panda bears.

    Rather than, say, crying and snuggling up with baby panda bears?

    oh god fucking damnit, the motherfucking auto-playing piece of shit Noah advertisement video is going to make me kill something.

    Download Adblock and rage-donate to the programmer.

    The whole point of manipulative, abusive behaviour is to shift the blame for as much as possible onto you.

    That’s one point. The other point is for the abuser to convince himself that everyone (or at least his victims) really is like him deep down, really does want what he wants them to want, and anyone who claims otherwise is lying/prude/repressed or a girl. It’s an elaborate form of lying to himself.

    *heap of fluffy hugs for Ogvorbis*

    Warning, above links to a dimension more vile than our own.

    I love Accused Unindicted Rapist. Aren’t these the same people who believe accusations of rape are false until proven otherwise? Sweet, sweet double standard…

    The same idiot using #FTBullies because he does know what else to do. Actually, this is common. Many will add the hashtag out of habit.

    :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

    I have no idea which is worse. That he understands what he is reading and is knowingly lying or if he truly does not understand what he is reading.

    He’s obviously a bullshitter: he doesn’t try to read it for understanding, because he doesn’t care what it says – he only cares if he can somehow make it say what he wants it to say.

    Manhood Academy

    LOL! That name! :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

  194. 694
    SC (Salty Current), OM
    Trolls be nocturnal cos they can’t stand the scrutiny of broad daylight.

    I resent this comment, and this sentiment in general….

    Are you a troll? If not, there was no reason to think the comment applied to you. Unless you’re using Special Indignation Logic, there’s a difference between “Trolls are nocturnal for reason X” and “Everyone who is nocturnal is so for reason X.”

  195. 695
    chigau (違う)

    oh goody

  196. 696
    Inaji

    Yeah. Assholes I do not need, I’m out for now.

  197. 697
    David Marjanović

    Ah. I finally figured out what the reference to TV Tropes was about.

    *facepalm*

    Good Wikipedia articles at least cite their sources, so you can click through and then cite those sources instead of the summary that is the Wikipedia article.

    *headshake*

  198. 698
    chigau (違う)

    yup
    citing the sources is a good thing
    as long as it’s not too haaaaaard

  199. 699
    ChasCPeterson

    I’m sure Chas was all upset about icky emotions invading his thunderdome again.

    To the contrary; Chas was offering sincere and heartfelt good advice to one of the few commenters around here for whom Chas has much respect left (and not for the first time).
    Chas used the name he did to address Ogvorbis because Chas wanted to speak to the actual real-life human being, not the pseudonymous internet typist. Chas felt OK doing that (not revealing secrets, not ‘doxing’, sure as hell not “bullying”) because the identity of the two names is no secret, being well known to all long-timers here and being easily found, for example, on the public Pharyngula Wiki.

    I’m sure Chas was all upset about icky emotions invading his thunderdome again. Perhaps Chas should indulge in professional therapy.

    Chas has, in fact, sought professional therapy during two different times in his life when he was depressed enough to be barely able to function, and a third time, jointly, during the collapse of a marriage. It was not ‘indulgence’; it was hard as hell. But it did him a world of good. That’s exactly why he has suggested it, again more than once, to Ogvorbis.

    To call that comment “bullying” is to miss the mark by several country miles, but I suppose it’s consistent with the 24-hour festival of confirmation bias that this place has become. Seriously, if you honestly think that the best way for Ogvorbis to be dealing with the shit he’s dealing with is via pouncehigs and affirmations from other pseudonymous internet typists, then I think you’re really, really wrong. Honestly and sincerely.

    Oh, and Inaji? It’s you who is, yet again, the asshole.

  200. 700
    Seven of Mine, formerly piegasm

    Chas if Ogvorbis takes comfort from the reassurance he gets from people here, who the fuck are you to tell him he doesn’t need that? Who the fuck are you to tell him he needs to seek therapy according to your timeline? Who the fuck are you to dictate the right way to cope with one’s abuse? That is of course leaving aside the asinine false dichotomy that he is necessarily seeking help here instead of seeking therapy.

    But hey, giving Ogvorbis credit for being able to figure out what’s best for himself is secondary to Chas getting another opportunity to be a supercilious fucking asshole. You are vile.

  201. 701
    ekwhite

    Goodbye Enemy Janine @660.

    I had words with that fellow on Twitter about an hour ago. He is currently trolling #skeptech. He is my first block on Twitter – yeah!

  202. 702
    chigau (違う)

    clearer and clearer

  203. 703
    PZ Myers

    NEW THREAD.

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