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More like the Dork Enlightenment, am I right?

I am told I’m supposed to take The Dark Enlightenment seriously. I can’t. I just can’t. What it is is mostly a bunch of pretentious white dudebro computer programmers with a fascist ideology who write tortuous long-winded screeds off the top of their heads, with most of their ‘data’ coming from pop culture movies like The Matrix, and a few similarly clueless nerds who think it’s neat-o. I take it seriously only in the same way I take Libertarianism seriously: it’s a nucleus for idiots to coalesce around.

They also throw the term HBD around a lot. If you’re not in the know, HBD is short for Human BioDiversity, and it’s the hot new sciencey word for racism. The only people who use it are racists.

Human biodiversity is the rejection of the “blank state” of human nature. Creepily obsessed with statistics that demonstrate IQ differences between the races, the darkly enlightened see social hierarchies as determined not by culture or opportunity but by the cold, hard destiny embedded in DNA. One blogger calls it “The Voldemort View” (adding Harry Potter to the Star Wars/Matrix mix), claiming that, “mean differences in group IQs are the most likely explanation for the academic achievement gap in racial and SES [socioeconomic status] groups.”

Oh, please, fuck the whole “blank slate”, nature/nurture dichotomy. Biology affects everything human, and everything human is affected by the environment.

Comments

  1. dogmeat says

    Oh great, another group to abuse data and statistics to support their idiotic agenda, as if the Republicans weren’t bad enough.

  2. gog says

    They have the mix of creepy sci-fi fan and computer kook that leads me to believe that they’re also MRAs.

  3. Louis says

    I might be wrong, being an outsider to the social sciences/anthropology etc, but as far as I am aware, despite various different fashions/schools, haven’t the majority of experts in the relevant fields always said that the nature/nurture “debate” was a crock of shit? The “answer” has always been “both” and the interesting questions have always been “how much for this particular phenomenon?” (to simplify things mightily).

    Am I vastly awry on this one, as a very loose, handwavy, general impression?

    Louis

  4. chigau (違う) says

    Do these Sith-otaku know where electricty comes from.
    or the water for their instant ramen?

  5. says

    Human biodiversity? Seriously? Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t there more variation in the genome in sub-Saharan Africa than the rest of the planet put together?

  6. Nick Gotts says

    Despite the inane mouthings of Nick Land as reported in the linked article, it’s just another attempted reboot of fascism. It should be taken seriously in the sense that fascist and quasi-fascist ideologies have been gaining ground across much of the world, and we know exactly what they lead to if indulged, but intellectually they are, as they always have been, worthless trash.

  7. borax says

    I read the linked article and I’m confused. The quotes from the Dark Enlightenment people were just gobbledegook.

  8. says

    borax: You read it correctly. It is just gobbledygook.

    Nick: That’s what I saw too. It’s fascist noise. A whole bunch of longwinded babble to justify authoritarianism to the people who want to be the authoritarians.

  9. Dr Marcus Hill Ph.D. (arguing from his own authority) says

    Also, they keep harping on about IQ as if it’s a worthwhile measure. I’m a well educated westerner and a mathematician. My IQ tends to test north of 170 because the tests are culturally skewed to my background and thematically skewed to my logico-spatial turn of mind. It doesn’t make me more intrinsically “intelligent” (whatever that means) than an illiterate nomad form sub-Saharan Africa, just better prepared for the test.

  10. Rob Grigjanis says

    One blogger calls it “The Voldemort View” (adding Harry Potter to the Star Wars/Matrix mix)

    More than a smidgeon of Philip Pullman’s His Dark Materials as well, and a soupçon of Anton LaVey.

    Probably wouldn’t survive long outside their basements.

  11. Thomathy, Gay Where it Counts says

    Gregory in Seattle @ #3

    Until shown otherwise, I’m going to assume they are a parody group. They are so incredibly over the top, they have to be.

    It’s not parody. You don’t have to take them seriously, but it’s so lazy to dismiss them and also to expect to be shown that they aren’t parody.

    And if you’re not serious, that particular dismissive laziness is so bloody tiring as a ‘joke'; leave off it.
    _____

    It’s easy enough for me to understand the ‘mostly white male’ (presumably also cis and hetero) membership in this so-called movement, but is that said because of a lack of knowledge about the actual makeup to leave room for error or is there actually some part of the membership that isn’t ‘white male’? If there is, my only thought is, ‘What’s wrong with them?’

    Seriously, are there women, visible minorities, sexual minorities and other non cis-hetero-white-males who participate in this ideology (used so very loosely) who are okay with being chattle, slaves and in all ways secondary (essentially the lesser) to a particular sub-set of cis-hetero-white nerd-bros?

    (Nerd-bros …it just seemed like a good fit.)

  12. Thomathy, Gay Where it Counts says

    Rob Grigjanis @ #11

    Probably wouldn’t survive long outside their basements.

    That’s not helpful. It wouldn’t, of course, if they were all in basements. They’re not, though. It’s why this is vaguely scary. Also, as Nick Gotts points out, there is traction to fascist ideology across the world (particularly and worryingly in Europe). Despite the nerd-bro flavour to this particular brand, and the nonsense (but fascism is so much nonsense), it’s not new or different and it’s living just fine in full exposure.

    Vaguely scary. Or perhaps it’s just the crushing acknowledgement that there is yet another way in which people can own their awful that adds to that sinking feeling I have?

  13. brucegee1962 says

    I’m thinking “Trotsky” when I read these people. As in, they’re the ones who intellectually pave the path for thuggish authoritarianism; however, they themselves are not temperamentally thugs. So once the actual revolution comes, the real thugs will ride in on their coat-tails, then once they are secure, they would make sure these “Sith Lords” are disappeared and erased from all the history books.

  14. tungl says

    *clutches copy of “The Mismeasure of Man” and shakes it at the dudebros*

    What I find so hugely… disturbing? offensive? enraging?… is that these people always pretend like they’re totes the first people ever to be ‘brave’ and ‘clever’ enough to make that argument. As if the same fallacies hadn’t been repeated again and again with each generation of white surpremacists, the pile of data stacked against them only rising higher with each year. And still they think they’re edgy and thinky when they point out that ‘hey, African Americans do worse on IQ-tests”, when IQ-tests have from the very beginning been designed to favour educated, moneyed people of European background.

  15. says

    While he didn’t articulate how an anti-democratic, racially charged, anti-modern, authoritarian political movement could be, in any way, anti-fascist, he’s a bright enough guy. I’m sure he has an answer.

    It isn’t hard to guess. Since, as Jonah Goldberg has demonstrated in such detail and with such care, fascism is a form of liberalism, then being anti-liberal automatically makes you anti-fascist.

    QED

  16. Scr... Archivist says

    Thomathy @12,

    …or is there actually some part of the membership that isn’t ‘white male’?

    Look at the chart near the beginning of the article. There is a section labelled “Femininity” which includes the likes of Janet “Judgy Bitch” Bloomfield. Just above them are the “Masculinity” boys, including Daryush “Roosh” Valizadeh. In the “Tech” sector is someone with the last name Hsu.

    Look around and you’ll see a few more. And that’s before you get to the pseudonyms.

  17. says

    Here’s how I explain the Nature/Nurture thing.
    Nature made you intelligent then Nurture made you stupid. They’re not opposites you know. Even Forrest Gump got that right.

  18. gmacs says

    “Voldemort view”? Are they calling themselves Voldemort?

    I mean, they seem to be claiming an inherent superiority. And by talking about HBD, they seem to be laying groundwork for “pure-blood mania” as Sirius Black would call it?

    Basically, comparing yourself to Voldemort is like saying “Hi, I’m Magical Hitler/Stalin”.

    (Note: That’s not a Godwin. Rowling herself made that comparison.)

  19. anteprepro says

    “Voldemort view”? Are they calling themselves Voldemort?

    Yes, they are. Because being bad is cooooool.

    That seems to be what they are doing as much as possible. Dark Enlightenment, Dark Lords of the Sith, It’s pathetic.

  20. houndentenor says

    THANK YOU! Biology and environment interact in ways we don’t fully understand. The debate pitting one against the other shows a basic understanding of what little we do know.

    Also, if people would bother looking at the results of the human genome project they would know that randomly selected people from different “races” often share more genomes than non-related (or closely related I should say since we are all related to varying degrees) members of the same ethnic group. Race is a construct from the 19th century which looks only at a few superficial characteristics (and was intended to prove that Europeans are superior to everyone else) and should be rejected for the pseudo-scientific fraud that it is.

  21. robro says

    Once again the delusion of intelligence stumbles out ignorance. Who would think of basing an ideology on fantasy and fiction…other than Christianity, Islam, Libertarianism, et alia.

    The scary thing isn’t just this movement and its Internet horde, but all the similar and related reactionary movements that have emerged from the Internet. The fact that the Internet provides venue for these (mostly) young, white men to vent their angst over their presumed lost privilege creates opportunities for demagoguery, not unlike the exploitation of the media in the 20s and 30s by their “intellectual” antecedents.

    Interesting tie in with the Magic card art theme in the piece. It’s not mentioned in the article, but I wonder if that’s another source of their ideology.

  22. ChasCPeterson says

    Biology affects everything human, and everything human is affected by the environment.

    Of course.
    Both clauses.

    Marcus Hill, post a scan of your MENSA card or gtfo.

  23. brucegee1962 says

    I think the lesson here is that these types of poisonous seeds are always lying around in every society. They just lie dormant most of the time. But every once in a while — usually during times of economic upheaval and major unemployment, as recently happened in Greece — the conditions are right for them to start to sprout. And we know that every single time that happens, the result is horror.

    We have more than ample examples from history, and quite a few from literature as well. It’s actually a bit refreshing that these people advertise from the get-go that they stand for executing the different and persecuting the weak. Most fascists make at least a tiny effort at the start to keep their horror under wraps, but these folks are waving it around in the wind.

  24. anteprepro says

    Interesting tie in with the Magic card art theme in the piece.

    I wonder what the relevance of that is too. Especially since I know they aren’t Magic cards. I don’t know if they are custom or if they are based on another type of card game. Magic cards don’t have those stylized backgrounds, the weird symbols in the left hand corner, and they would normally have stats at the bottom. I am leaning towards the possibility that these are just custom cards, because they are relatively simple (plain white bottom that basically just quotes a screed from them, top covered in a background of their choice and middle section filled with pic, and then symbol of choice in upper left. Probably just playing around in photoshop).

  25. Amphiox says

    Once again the delusion of intelligence stumbles out ignorance. Who would think of basing an ideology on fantasy and fiction…other than Christianity, Islam, Libertarianism, et alia.

    Perhaps one day, income atom blasted future, there shall arise a creed about a saviour, descended from the heavens, who, blessed with superhuman power and wisdom, led the world to a brighter future, by the strength of his example*.

    Perhaps they shall erect mighty cathedrals in his honor, and pray before alters emblazoned with a crimson S.

    *(until he was betrayed and martyred by a villain wielding a green rock, of course)

  26. Great American Satan says

    ChasC@23, I bet the wanna-be Sith lords ask people the same question. MENSA has kind of a shit rep for a reason.

  27. Zeppelin says

    These guys are cute. They wouldn’t last five minutes in a room with actual organised fascists.
    Their cultural collapse narrative is also peculiarly American.

  28. ChasCPeterson says

    randomly selected people from different “races” often share more genomes than non-related (or closely related I should say since we are all related to varying degrees) members of the same ethnic group.

    “Share more genomes” is meaningless. And citation needed.
    In fact there is a strong signal of geographically correlated clustering of genetic variation among human populations. A pretty good introduction to the relevant literature can be found here.

    Race is a construct from the 19th century which looks only at a few superficial characteristics (and was intended to prove that Europeans are superior to everyone else) and should be rejected for the pseudo-scientific fraud that it is.

    Yes, Race is a social construct and yes, the early anthropologists who developed and popularized the idea were Europeans and convinced of their own superiority. But it was never a (conscious) “fraud”, and despite the gospel handed down from Lewontin and Gould it was not (entirely) pseudo-scientific either.
    There really are broad geographic patterns of human phenotypic variation (no, there aren’t sharp boundaries, no there is no one defining character, no there is not a definite and countable number of races, no I’m not talking about 19th-Century typological races, no of course I’m not arguing for the intrinsic superiority or inferiority of any group), and there really are biological/genetic patterns of variation that correlate with them.
    It’s time to move past the ideological dogma and deal with the data.

  29. Louis says

    MENSA? Any organisation that charges you money to tell you how smart you are is a lot smarter than you.*

    Louis

    *Not bitter, joined at 16, left at 16 and a half when I worked that out. I’m ashamed it took me that long.

  30. roro80 says

    Mostly white, male and angry, they lie in wait for the imminent collapse of civilization.

    That kind of says it all, doesn’t it? There’s always been a home for the most extreme elements that can be described in exactly this way. That this one in particular deifies the bad guys from much beloved sci-fi fairy tales seems a little odd, but it seems to be coming from the same place as the zombie-apocalypse bunker builders and evangelical end-timers, just with more megalomania. Like going Galt without the blithe laissez-faire attitude toward all the poor stupid souls who would be fine if they could just see what an awesome Superman you are. Harry Potter, the Matrix, and Star Wars are an interesting little trio — male-dominated (with a token awesome woman), a complex allegorical mythology heavily laden with prophecy and focused on the “chosen one”. In any case, these guys seem to be setting themselves up as semi-literal anti-Christs. Which is a little chuckle-worthy given their supposed interest in science.

  31. ChasCPeterson says

    MENSA has kind of a shit rep

    yeah, sorry. Local inside joke (there was a guy, Charlie Weaver, who once actually did post a scan of his (expired) MENSA card here to prove he wasn’t as dumb as the stuff he always said).
    It’s just that when people post their own IQ scores (and always always with use of the phrase “north of”) it gets my eyes to rollin’.

  32. says

    This is funny because I was just making fun of the Less Wrong community (in private conversation) for paying way too much attention to the same group (which they call the neo-reactionaries). It seemed like such a fringe group, not really worth such extensive rational arguments. But if they’re hitting mainstream news, does that mean I was wrong about how fringe they are?

  33. Louis says

    Dr Marcus Hill PhD,

    My IQ tends to test north of 170…

    There was (is?) a creationist who posted at Uncommon Descent who would always bang on about his IQ being “north of 150) and his being an autodidact. He was roundly mocked (at AtBC) for this gem. I always chuckle when I see an IQ containing comment with “north of” in it. Ahhh the old days, an autodildo with a hat size west of 50. Sorry, sorry, your comment, totally innocently of course, made me reminisce about a particularly egregious muppet.

    Louis

  34. robro says

    anteprepro – I’m sure the artwork isn’t Magic cards, Hasbro copyrights being what they are, just made to look somewhat like them. I can see the relevance, you know “The Gathering” and the boy-games-cum-cult theme of this Dark Movement, just wondering if the DM bofos are also into that fantasy. It would be fitting.

  35. Nick Gotts says

    There really are broad geographic patterns of human phenotypic variation… and there really are biological/genetic patterns of variation that correlate with them. ChasCPeterson

    Can you point me to anyone at all who ever denied that? I mean, you’d have to believe that differences in skin colour and hair texture (for example) are purely due to environmental factors.

  36. anteprepro says

    I’m sure the artwork isn’t Magic cards, Hasbro copyrights being what they are

    It’s hardly stopped anyone before!

    I can see the relevance, you know “The Gathering” and the boy-games-cum-cult theme of this Dark Movement, just wondering if the DM bofos are also into that fantasy.

    Most likely. Or at very least something very similar, considering their choice of artwork (the first one reminds me of Cthulhu Mythos games I’ve played, the others all are vaguely remind me of World of Warcraft)

  37. Scr... Archivist says

    Thomathy @ 12,

    …or is there actually some part of the membership that isn’t ‘white male’?

    There appears to be. Look at the chart near the beginning of the article. The “Femininity” group includes Janet “Judgy Bitch” Bloomfield. Her neighbors among the “Masculinity” boys include Daryush “Roosh” Valizadeh. And in the “Tech” sector there is someone with the last name of Hsu.

    You might find some more. But I don’t know what you’d find behind the pseudonyms.

    Meanwhile, it’s funny to see the word “Futurists” in that chart. Many of the early-20th century Futurists supported Fascism. I wonder how many will this time around.

    And for an ongoing critique of the “techbrotarians”, including Michael Anissimov, I recommend the blog “Amor Mundi” by Dale Carrico. Maybe start with this “Superlative Summary”. They’ve given him material for critique lo these many years.

  38. robro says

    Amphiox — But it’s just been so done. We’re somewhere north of 5,000 years of men with messiah delusions and their minions inscribing stones, erecting stelae, building cathedrals and temples…and willingly killing and dying for their god-man*. You would think at some point these geniuses would be smart enough to catch on, that all their facts confirm their biases would be a prima facie clue. But no.

    * See Thomas Thompson’s The Messiah Myth in which he meticulously catalogs the extent of the trope in the ancient Middle East.

  39. Alexander says

    Desire for genetically determined ruling classes, distrust of popular democratic reform, distaste for the aesthetic standards of mass culture, and nausea over the political correctness of modern life—the Dark Enlightenment does have all the markings of a true neo-fascist movement.

    “Speaking entirely personally, I think the DE is the only coherent antidote to fascist thinking presently available.” While [Land] didn’t articulate how an anti-democratic, racially charged, anti-modern, authoritarian political movement could be, in any way, anti-fascist, he’s a bright enough guy. I’m sure he has an answer.

    My immersion into the hermetic truths of the Sith Lords left me wondering what exactly they saw as so disastrous about modern society. The world is richer, healthier, less poor, less violent, and able to access more information than ever before.

    I can’t see any way to understand this other than neo-Nazism, dressed in the Emperor’s New Clothes, and given an exciting new name to try and attract another crop of suckers who forgot what the end result of these ideas led to in the 1940’s.

  40. Louis says

    Chigau,

    Mine’s left down the High Street, east-ish along Broad Street and straight through the doors of the “Dog and Mildly Racist Landlord”. It then has a complex relationship with Sailor Jerry’s rum, briefly proportional then staggeringly inversely proportional. It has the number of digits that the person is holding up to test my sobriety as I emerge, blinking from the gutter.*

    Louis

    *Actual rabid alcoholism may be exaggerated. I’ve been known to be totally sober for, ooooh, hours. Frankly, I am always amazed that anyone can get through a day interacting with other humans and not want to drink heavily.

  41. moarscienceplz says

    I definitely get a whiff of Munich beer halls and brown shirts from these guys, except I doubt any of them have been in the military, or have enough organizational skill to do anything in the real world. What could happen though is that some of them could get rich from high tech stock options and then use that money to fund yet more ALEC-type nastiness.

  42. mothra says

    Not wishing to be part of the ‘Endarkenment,’ I attach a great deal of meaninglessness to IQ tests. Isaac Asimov in his autobiography thought of them as self-serving: IQ tests are set up to ask the type of questions that people (in the west) with high IQ’s like to answer. Just to ‘play the game’ and in defense of Dr. Hill, If I am very ill and deprived of a night’s sleep I can score 108 on such a test, if the test is skewed to mostly spacial relationship type problems and I am in ‘fine fettle’ I can score 165- talk about a worthless exercise.

  43. Raskos says

    Referring to this movement as the Dark Enlightenment gives it a ritzily wicked validity it really doesn’t deserve, and it also allows its proponents to set the terms of any discussion. As PZ says, the EnDorkenment is the label that fits the best, having that vital intrinsic element of ridicule.

  44. says

    Yeah I still trying to figure out a good way of replying to points like these in a discussion board that I moderate. The topic was social justice as a general idea and one of the links was this one,
    http://occidentalascent.wordpress.com/2012/06/10/the-facts-that-need-to-be-explained/

    That is a lot to try to explain. I know how I think I want to talk about the content in that page but one of the problems with this group is that they do have access to a lot of data that can be challenging to deal with because of the sheer amount of material that needs to be addressed. I’m still trying to figure out the minimal number of points that I need to challenge :P

    …and find a good way to introduce them to how epignentics and a hostile culture will likely affect intelligence and all sorts of other outcomes.

  45. anteprepro says

    I have new names for them!
    The Syber Smaug
    The Killer Klingon Krew
    The Hobbit Youth
    The National Capitalist German Lurkers Party For Men
    The GATTACAn City
    The Antisocial Darwinists
    The Geneva Unconventionals
    The Holofoil Cost
    #lolfascism
    Disciples of Godwin
    Imperial Grand Wizarding Guild
    4chanate Sons
    Gamerz for Gulags
    Next Genocide Console

  46. Rey Fox says

    So by “take seriously”, we mean mock mercilessly, right?

    They have the mix of creepy sci-fi fan and computer kook that leads me to believe that they’re also MRAs.

    Oh absolutely. Check out the faux-magic card for “hbd chick”, who I’m assuming is their resident “chill girl”.

  47. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says

    It’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye.
    In this case, it’s going to be some non-white person, who was minding their own business until some assholes finally acted on their own dark wishes.

    So no, you shouldn’t ignore this kind of group, no matter how fringe and out of touch with reality it seems. Even if they get nowhere, these kinds of groups feed on each other. Call it free market, if you wish. A niche opens up, and suddenly there are all these asshole wanna-be leaders rushing to fill it. Most will fail, but other will come in their place. Some groups will merge. Some assholes will stay in fringe groups, but be bolstered in their hatred by mere existence of others.

    In any case. This is dangerous. Shine a light on them, make their hatred obvious before they even have a chance to gain enough power to realize they are supposed to polish that turd a bit. Give it some shine so that witless folks join, not realizing what they are actually supporting.

    As Nick warns, this is happening in Europe, on a larger and more serious scale. Nazism, fascism and variants of extreme nationalism are popping up everywhere. Gaining power. This shit is real, and it’s scary.

  48. anteprepro says

    In any case. This is dangerous. Shine a light on them, make their hatred obvious before they even have a chance to gain enough power to realize they are supposed to polish that turd a bit. Give it some shine so that witless folks join, not realizing what they are actually supporting.

    Bingo. I very much doubt they are going to become a political influence, as the article implies: But they are a potentially dangerous hate group and they are a clear symptom of one of the many diseases afflicting American culture. They shouldn’t be taken seriously, because they are an absolute fucking joke. They should be taken seriously, because they are angry, delusional, malicious ideologues who might act on their pseudointellectual hatemongering at some point.

  49. unclefrogy says

    OK these “rational scientific racists” with all this DNA blather really do get it.
    Sure there are differences in populations as to skin color, facial features hair, height. there are populations that have other differences diseases , lactose sensitivity, sickle cell diabetes susceptibility lots of things. All of that may be the result to different selecting pressures and drift and isolation from different environments and history. At the same time there is no where an environment that favored the stupid over the intelligent nor any other of characteristics they pick out making them the superior ones. Well maybe there is one environment that favors the stupid over the intelligent it might be the more urban one. The more that individual survival is not dependent on there own actions with a good deal of local knowledge and luck and more dependent on the systems of agriculture and transportation the stupid might experience less of a negative selective pressure.

    does that make sense?
    uncle frogy

    dna

  50. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says

    Of course this particular group looks ridiculous. They could turn into something different, but right now they are a joke. What they are saying (if you ignore the Matrix and Harry Potter references) isn’t. It’s what other, less funny hate groups are saying as well.
    These are just easier to dismiss for being a joke. But the message minority groups are already getting from others, it’s just getting reinforced by these clowns.

    Mock them mercilessly. I know I will enjoy reading, and support it to the best of my comedian ability (not much).
    Just don’t dismiss them.

  51. says

    Anteprepro @ 49:

    They shouldn’t be taken seriously, because they are an absolute fucking joke. They should be taken seriously, because they are angry, delusional, malicious ideologues who might act on their pseudointellectual hatemongering at some point.

    Take them seriously and mock them mercilessly.

  52. Holms says

    What do they believe?
    Post-red pill awakening, liberal progressivism is seen as a state religion, an unquestioned humanist ideology that determines all outcomes and silences dissenters through dismissal.

    In which being disagreed with is characterised as ‘silencing’.

  53. anteprepro says

    Beatrice:

    Mock them mercilessly. I know I will enjoy reading, and support it to the best of my comedian ability (not much).
    Just don’t dismiss them….

    Inaji:

    Take them seriously and mock them mercilessly.

    Perfect!

  54. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says

    I always end up owing people stuff.

  55. grumpypathdoc says

    A few years before I had ever heard of the Dunning–Kruger effect, I (sort of) coined the phrase “the arrogance of ignorance” in reference to some older friends of ours. Most of you know the type: otherwise kindly, generally soft spoken people who feed at the Fox News trough, in a effort to confirm their belief system.

    I am also concerned about the rise of NeoFascism in Europe, especially in the part I’m planning on retiring to. Putin was fractionally right about some of the protestors and instigators of the rebellion in the Ukraine. Some are indeed NeoFascists or at least ultra nationalists.

    Simply put: subjective opinion often trumps objective information, even if the information presented is irrefutable. But then we all know something about that or we wouldn’t even be reading Pharyngula

  56. AlanMac says

    Who are these guys? The intelligentsia of the Tea Party? How long are these people going to keep polishing that neo-fascist turd.

  57. anteprepro says

    There are Objectivists, who read a fantasy/sci-fi novel about a dystopian future and make it their cause to prevent that imaginary future from happening.

    And there are these guys, who would read a fantasy or sci-fi novel about a dystopian society, and say “you know what, I would like me some of that”.

    Some people fight imaginary foes. And some people imagine a foe, and decide to make it their idol instead.

  58. ChasCPeterson says

    IQ tests are an amazing measure of how good you are at taking IQ tests.

    as original as it is profound

  59. David Marjanović says

    anteprepro has won this thread twice.

    Human biodiversity? Seriously? Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t there more variation in the genome in sub-Saharan Africa than the rest of the planet put together?

    You’re not wrong.

    More recently I’ve even read that within the out-of-Africa branch there’s more variation in India than in the rest…

    Perhaps one day, income atom blasted future, there shall arise a creed about a saviour, descended from the heavens, who, blessed with superhuman power […]

    That one, unlike most gods, is in fact omnibenevolent. I think that would be progress.

    there was a guy, Charlie Weaver, who once actually did post a scan of his (expired) MENSA card here to prove he wasn’t as dumb as the stuff he always said

    Wagner. Charlie Wagner. And thank you so much for making me remember his name, which my memory had safely buried. *sulk*

    Nazism, fascism and variants of extreme nationalism are popping up everywhere. Gaining power.

    In most European countries they’re currently stable, not going anywhere. But I do agree with everyone: point and laugh.

  60. Muz says

    It’s funny; Objectivists/Libertarians get quite shirty when you suggest they might tip over into mad authoritarianism from their obsessive separateness and self reliance. I admit it’s not always obvious how they might, even though the defenses are in the vein of a pre-emptive ‘no true Scotsman’.
    But never mind figuring out how that might work, here’s some right here!

    Trotsky was mentioned. But no, they haven’t put that much thought into it. Godwin worthy though it is, I can’t help thinking of the post-Nietzchen convolutions of Himmler.

  61. John Horstman says

    Lovely, a new group that wants to actualize the Illuminati myth. Given that the likes of Frank Luntz and Roger Ailes have been doing a far better job of discursive engineering than these jokers, I’m not exactly worried. Some of them are pretty brilliant – I came across an incredible analysis of the ideological threads, social commentary, and semiotics of The Matix that I now recognize as written by one of these guys, for example – especially with respect to their understandings of information systems and the contingent social construction of meaning, but their aims are so blatantly awful that they’re never going to achieve widespread influence.

  62. Scr... Archivist says

    gog @2

    They have the mix of creepy sci-fi fan and computer kook that leads me to believe that they’re also MRAs.

    and Thomathy @12,

    …or is there actually some part of the membership that isn’t ‘white male’?

    There seem to be. If you look at the chart near the beginning of the article, you can find some women. For example, in the “Femininity” grouping, there is Janet “Judgy Something” Bloomfield. And next to that are the “Masculinity” boys including Daryush “Roosh” Valizadeh. So that intersects with the MRA/PUA nexus.

    I also notice someone with the last name of “Hsu”, and you might see some more names that might be Asian. And who knows what demographic information those pseudonyms obscure? (Probably pale males, though.)

    Another name on the chart is Michael Anissimov, in the “Futurist” grouping. He and they have been critiqued for some time by Dale Carrico on his blog “Amor Mundi”. You might want to start with his section “The Superlative Summary”.
    ———-

    Some these people are identified as the modern version of “Futurists”, which I find interesting considering the political inclinations of the “Futurists” of a century ago. Back then, the term referred to an art movement, many of whose members supported the Italian Fascists.

    ———–
    grumpypathdoc @58,

    Putin was fractionally right about some of the protestors and instigators of the rebellion in the Ukraine. Some are indeed NeoFascists or at least ultra nationalists.

    Which is funny, because I would argue that Russia is also turning fascist. Pot kettle. See Robert O. Paxton’s list of seven fascist “mobilizing passions”, and Putin’s Russia ticks the boxes. Also: http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-fascism-lurking-under-winter-games.html

    ———-
    Meanwhile, you can read more about the endarkenment here: http://techcrunch.com/2013/11/22/geeks-for-monarchy/

    Keep an eye on them.

  63. Jonathan, Endorkened says

    @24,
    “Even when your kind appears to triumph, still we rise again. And do you know why? It is because the Order is born of a realization. We require no creed. No indoctrination by desperate old men. All we need is that the world be as it is.”

    The question is, how do you change the world without herding most of its population onto reservations, spiriting away their children for reeducation, and otherwise committing acts of cultural extermination that amount to genocide? Because I don’t think these are the kind of bugs you can remove with a simple update–the system needs to restart.

  64. Nick Gotts says

    Putin was fractionally right about some of the protestors and instigators of the rebellion in the Ukraine. Some are indeed NeoFascists or at least ultra nationalists. – grumpypathdoc

    No, fascists is right. You don’t even need the “neo”. The deputy leader of Svoboda, which now has several cabinet ministers as well as the general prosecutor’s office, founded a think tank called the “Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre”. Svoboda are considered too liberal by the paramilitary Right Sector.

    Which is funny, because I would argue that Russia is also turning fascist. – Scr… Archivist

    Hardly surprising. Because extreme nationalism is central to fascism, fascists bearing allegiance to different countries are always liable to fall out. Whatever unity they achieve is always based on common hatred for some scapegoat.

  65. md says

    I also notice someone with the last name of “Hsu”, and you might see some more names that might be Asian. And who knows what demographic information those pseudonyms obscure? (Probably pale males, though.)

    Incorrect on the pale male.

    Steve Hsu blogs here

    And works at BGI Cognitive Genomics, along with being a Physics professor at Michigan State. Not entirely sure of his politics, but im fairly sure Id read he’s an Obama voter on his blog somewhere.

  66. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    “Even when your kind appears to triumph, still we rise again. And do you know why? It is because the Order is born of a realization. We require no creed. No indoctrination by desperate old men. All we need is that the world be as it is.”

    Is that from Assassin’s Creed or something?

  67. Zeppelin says

    I feel the rise (or increasing loudness, anyway) of these fascist flavoured fringe groups is actually a symptom of a generally POSITIVE development: their views are less and less tolerated in mainstream society.

    Take German political parties, for example: If I was a raging homophobe in the 1980s, I could vote for pretty much any party. At worst they weren’t bothered about gay issues and okay with the status quo, at best they were actively anti-gay like me.

    Now that kind of stuff is becoming impolitic even in the conservative CDU, so if I take my homophobia seriously I have to vote for some kind of fringe party. Same with other reactionary attitudes.

    Which isn’t to say that these groups aren’t a threat, but I don’t think their existence is a sign of cultural decline or anything.

  68. Drolfe says

    There are people that play Mass Effect and come to the conclusion that Cerberus is the good guys.

    :-\

  69. ChasCPeterson says

    “in”, Ing. The word you were trying but failed to spell is “in”.

  70. Crudely Wrott says

    From the linky to the Vocativ article, this, followed by the observations of an old fart:

    What is their blind spot? My immersion into the hermetic truths of the Sith Lords left me wondering what exactly they saw as so disastrous about modern society. The world is richer, healthier, less poor, less violent, and able to access more information than ever before. Even in the developed West, in America, the very Vatican of The Cathedral, poverty and economic turbulence cause less death and suffering than they did only decades ago. And Europe, despite its recent near-economic collapse and massive unemployment, looks more like a comfortable, retired continent than a truly suffering one. None of which is to deny or minimize the problems of modern society. It’s only to suggest that the solution may not be a return to monarchy and rigid racial castes. Anyone read much about how great things were in 14th century Europe?

    Well, then. From the beginning of this quote:

    What is their blind spot? My immersion into the hermetic truths of the Sith Lords left me wondering what exactly they saw as so disastrous about modern society.

    Matt Sigl asks the proper question. “What is their blind spot?” From my point of view it is too little exposure to life outdoors in the company of random people and waaaay too much time engaged in games that force one to “build empires” and waaaay too much time watching movies that portray time worn images of failure, a world gone bonkers and people in positions of responsibility and power acting like people that spend waaaay too much time trying to “build empires” and waaaay too much time watching moves that feature large and improbable explosions. Also, there are no red or blue pills. Belief in them, or unrewarding searches for them and the inevitable angst and anger that results from not finding them are most of what creates such fantasies as Dark Enlightenment.
    Really, I can see similar manifestations in my daughter’s man cubs. They are troubled that the real world is not the same as the screen world. Mischief inevitably results. Mischief that is eminently avoidable by taking one’s nose out of the screen and poking it into the real world. There, education is equally fraught with questions but, big difference, you can’t save game, adjust parameters and restart. In real life you must simply muddle on with what you got.
    tl; dr: There are no Siths and there are no Lords. With the exception of those navel gazers who one day became carried away that there might be and, since they thought it was an original insight, appointed themselves either Siths or Lords or Both. Pity the fools.

    The world is richer, healthier, less poor, less violent, and able to access more information than ever before. Even in the developed West, in America, the very Vatican of The Cathedral, poverty and economic turbulence cause less death and suffering than they did only decades ago. And Europe, despite its recent near-economic collapse and massive unemployment, looks more like a comfortable, retired continent than a truly suffering one.

    True, as can be ascertained by a cursory glance. Compare with Europe in 1955, 1965. 1975 and et cetera. Soviet hegemony, European nationalism, and the US and NATO fervently trying to out smart (out dumb, in hindsight) the USSR made Europe a testing ground of revamped politics that worked about as well as they did in the early twentieth century; not very well.
    Today’s Europe is something worth writing home about, even accounting for that barb about being a retirement community. They’re still making babies, aren’t they?

    None of which is to deny or minimize the problems of modern society.

    No, of course not. Nothing ever is. People are just too courteous as any fuel no. Additionally, the modifier “modern” is utterly lost in any discussion of history; all societies are modern when the first blossom. The use of the term is only to stroke those who think that the society that they live is is the only one that has ever been modern. Dismiss this term on sight.

    It’s only to suggest that the solution may not be a return to monarchy and rigid racial castes

    See the final line of the full quote that begins this rant. This one:

    Anyone read much about how great things were in 14th century Europe?

    I confidently venture that most of the regular commeters here have actually read the historical record that includes the 14th century vis a vis Europe; probably vis a vis the rest of the world where such histories exist.

    Personal note: About twenty five (thirty?!) years ago I received a booklet in the mail that was called “Neo-Thought”. Somehow my address slithered through multiple mailing lists and I was presented with a thirty or forty page screed full of sentences like this (not verbatim, from memory): “Having seen how former modes of comprehension have failed to promote human progress and having learned that outmoded explanations of integration have failed, Neo-Thought seeks to remedy these failures and supercharge humanity into the future.”

    I see no difference between that and this so-called [fill in the blank with your favorite misapprehension] Enlightenment.

    tl; dr, take two: I am unmoved.

  71. vaiyt says

    Again, this shit just bores me to no end.

    The first aspect of these groups is that they talk about self-serving ethics and social darwinism like it’s some sort of novel and amazing philosophical development no one’s heard before.

    The rest is just morality by tautology – using inequality and injustice as a starting point to justify inequality and injustice. The world is what it is because it is what it is, therefore we should do our damned best to make it more of what it is. Whatever we decide “is” is.

  72. says

    In which being disagreed with is characterised as ‘silencing’.

    This sounds vaguely familiar.

    ++++

    What is their blind spot? My immersion into the hermetic truths of the Sith Lords left me wondering what exactly they saw as so disastrous about modern society.

    The answer is power. Being given more shit for free (because they deserve it by accident of birth), even if that means less shit overall for everybody including themselves because everything is shit.
    It’s like those experiments where people decline a healthy raise in their salary because accepting would mean that somebody they perceive as unworthy would then get an even higher raise.
    It’s because they always think of themselves as the survivor and overlord in a dystopian future, never as part of the skull pyramid in the background or the minion whose time on screen is limited by how long it takes to get blasted to bits.

  73. Crudely Wrott says

    What vaiyt said. With the small correction, while nodding politely to snark, that the closely whittled definition of what “is” is is eminently ignorable in perfect mirroring of the ignorability of the whatchamacllit that started all this gabbling.

    What is is talked about endlessly with desperate homage to self or dogma or groupthink and so becomes something which is defined as something. Something that, to belay underlying fear of uselessness, arcs brightly into a sky of imagination and, having spent itself, arcs darkly down in admission of failure and disappears before it meets the ground from which it was launched.
    What ain’t ain’t despite being talked about endlessly and becomes more talk to talk about. Big fucking deal. Dogs do that. So do ducks and crickets and no-see-ums. Bzz, bzz, bzz.
    Way to fucking waste time. Way to declare a twisting path leads straight to somewhere. Way to fail to describe somewhere.

    Predictable behavior of those who, loving the sound of their own screams, scream ever more loudly at reality with growing certainty that reality will go away, leaving only their own screams to inform themselves. That others are informed? Fuck that!

    Transmission ended.

  74. Crudely Wrott says

    Breaks silence to say that Giliell’s mention of “accident of birth” is probably the most confounding factor of all.

    Shuts up again because this is an issue that has no viable issue.

  75. brett says

    Noah Smith over at Noahpinion had a debate with one of these guys over at his blog after an earlier post on them, if you can call it a debate. It’s about what you said – they’re basically a bunch of neo-fascist, neo-aristocratic white guys who buy into social darwinism and assume they wouldn’t end up at the bottom of the totem pole in such a society.

    I can’t imagine taking them any more seriously than I would take the racists over at Stormfront.

  76. laurentweppe says

    If you’re not in the know, HBD is short for Human BioDiversity, and it’s the hot new sciencey word for racism. The only people who use it are racists.

    Remember the good old days, when the fashionable hot new sciencey word for racism was, well, racism.

    Seriously, there are times I almost wish for the social dominators to become frank, to drop all pretense and say “We want castles and servants and harems, we want to be treated like pampered aristocrats and openly treat the rest of humankind like cattle and fucktoys

    ***

    Most fascists make at least a tiny effort at the start to keep their horror under wraps, but these folks are waving it around in the wind.

    Most fascists post-WWII have until recently made a tiny effort to keep their horror under wraps because they had their collective ass kicked so hard that Heavens sang and the Earth and Sea danced: once his arms have been twisted to the breaking point, a bully will listen to self-preservation until whoever beat him down is not here anymore… an lo and behold: the greatest generation is dying of old age, and the baby-boomer they raised have grown old after squandering their heritage: the fascists are becoming once again slightly more open about their goals (not totally open: as I said above, they’re still far away from openly admitting that it’s the parasitic lifestyle of hereditary nobilities they crave for) because the pain from the previous ass-kicking has faded and those who delivered it are gone or will soon be.

  77. Ishikiri says

    Human biodiversity, huh? I guess “race-realism” has become a worn-out euphemism.

  78. anteprepro says

    I can see their trajectory clearly. One of them will write a racist political screed called Mein Kraft. Next up, they attempt the Beer Hall Zerg Rush. Once they eventually get into political power, they will form The Third Riker. And they will then send all of the Noobs off to concentration camps in District 9. Eventually, they will begin executing them as part of, what they call, The Final Fantasy. They will then invade Pandaria and kick off World Warcraft II.

  79. alexanderz says

    Just something that bugs me:
    Fascism, Nazism and racism aren’t synonyms! These people aren’t fascist by any definition of that “ideology” – they are neo-Nazis. One of the key differences between those two is that Nazism is a revolutionary movement that seeks to change the entire world, while fascism is defined by glorification of one’s country (or perceived country, since most fascist believe in some pseudo-historical country with larger borders than their country currently holds).
    This is what makes Nazism worse than fascism, but it also makes it much rarer.

  80. anteprepro says

    Fascism, Nazism and racism aren’t synonyms! These people aren’t fascist by any definition of that “ideology” – they are neo-Nazis.

    For fuck’s sake, Nazism is a type of fascism, commonly characterized by racism (especially antisemitism). Pedantry fucking failed.

  81. Nick Gotts says

    alexanderz@89,

    You need to study a little history. It is true that Nazism and fascism are not synonymous (and many racists are neither Naxis nor fascists), but historical Nazism was without doubt a form of fascism. It shared the extreme nationalism, militarism, anti-egalitarianism, totalitarianism, racism, and gender essentialism of other fascist movements, with the nationalism in question being German. Its most distinctive ideological feature was its extreme, eliminationist antisemitism (the Italian Fascist Party, for example, admitted Jews, until pressure from Hitler led Mussolini to stop this). Most fascists now share that antisemitism, (although it is often disguised, and Muslims are now often the overt target), along with an admiration of Hitler, and so can reasonably be referred to as neonazis, even though they are not, except in Germany, German nationalists.

  82. anne mariehovgaard says

    haven’t the majority of experts in the relevant fields always said that the nature/nurture “debate” was a crock of shit? The “answer” has always been “both” and the interesting questions have always been “how much for this particular phenomenon?”

    More like “how much for this phenomenon in this group under these circumstances”.

    BTW, I wish people would stop demonstrating the Dunning-Kruger effect when talking about IQ tests. A few hints:
    1. The reason why differences in IQ scores between populations are (mostly) meaningless is not that IQ tests are worthless, it’s that they are made for measuring differences between individuals within a population. As soon as you start using them for anything else, the results are no longer valid – because you don’t know what you are measuring. And they’re made for educated Western populations, so using them in rural Africa is just silly – it might be an interesting experiment, maybe you’ll get some new ideas about the effects of different cultures on various cognitive skills, but it won’t tell you anything useful about differences in general cognitive ability. There’s no such thing as a culture-free IQ test, and there can never be – the ability to learn and retain knowledge and skills is an important part of what you’re trying to measure.
    2. “Different populations” doesn’t just mean US vs. Somalia; the differences between groups within a country can be so significant that you should really treat them as different populations.
    3. The higher up you get, the less reliable and valid the results will be. With an IQ of 170, you’re looking at something like 1 in 650 000 people. Do you really think anyone would be willing to pay to get reliable norms using that many subjects??? Sure, if the test is a) good and b) not exclusively verbal or non-verbal, a score like that means you would probably get a very high score on a completely different test as well, but I would not expect identical results – at those levels results 1 or 2 SDs apart would count as “similar”. And as for real-world validity – the difference in skills/understanding/ability between IQ 85 and IQ 100 is meaningful, the difference between IQ 145 and IQ 160… not so much.
    4. Some tests are more useful than others; I like the multi-scale Wechsler tests, partly because they give you an idea of where someones cognitive strengths and weaknesses are and partly because the results themselves can indicate how valid they are. Attention span is much more sensitive to things like tiredness or anxiety than vocabulary is, to give one example. A single-measure test result could be affected by any number of things and you wouldn’t be able to tell.
    5. A lot of factors can make a test result invalid; unfortunately people sometimes forget this even when it should be part of their job to know stuff like that. I once had a client who had been given a diagnosis of mild mental retardation after being tested during the first week of drug rehab…

  83. alexanderz says

    Nick Gotts #93:

    It shared the extreme nationalism, militarism, anti-egalitarianism, totalitarianism, racism, and gender essentialism of other fascist movements

    All true except for nationalism. Nazism didn’t recognize nations or national borders. The only thing that mattered was “biology”. In Hitler’s mind an anti-German ethnic Dane (provided he or she weren’t too troublesome) was better than an east-European Waffen-SS member.
    Such thinking was completely alien to fascist regimes (not just Mussolini’s Italy, but also to Franco and South American dictators).

    I agree that Nazism and fascism are sister “ideologies” (though I don’t think that fascism qualifies as an ideology), but I think it’s important to distinguish between the two, particularly when we are talking about a group that so clearly belongs to one camp and not the other. What irked me was the way the columnist was juggling those terms, as if they were nothing than swear words.

  84. anteprepro says

    All true except for nationalism. Nazism didn’t recognize nations or national borders.

    Bullshit they weren’t nationalists. They only disregarded borders insofar as they wanted all German-speaking states to be part of Germany. In what world does that not count as nationalism?

    I agree that Nazism and fascism are sister “ideologies” (though I don’t think that fascism qualifies as an ideology), but I think it’s important to distinguish between the two, particularly when we are talking about a group that so clearly belongs to one camp and not the other.

    Still bullshit. Nazism is not a sister ideology. Nazism is not a separate. Nazism is a subset of fascism. That is the common interpretation. If you are swearing that that is not on the case, the onus is on you to prove that yours is actually the current opinion. But it just simply isn’t.

  85. says

    What is so disturbing about these idiots belief system is that they think race is still somehow linked to genetics. Last I checked we don’t live in 1920 anymore and eugenics has been adequately smashed as a “theory”. They also succeed in ignoring half a century of cultural anthropology and sociology and have not yet realized that race is a social and cultural construct and not based in science at all. Seems to me to be like a internet era reactionary version of the Red Army Faction or other New Left movements of the 1960’s. Minus the militant aspects of course, I doubt the Dark Enlightenment would be willing to wander away from their computers for more than a couple hours.

  86. vaiyt says

    With the small correction, while nodding politely to snark, that the closely whittled definition of what “is” is is eminently ignorable in perfect mirroring of the ignorability of the whatchamacllit that started all this gabbling.

    What I said. Their definition of the status quo is, like everything else, selectively self-serving.

  87. dccarbene says

    HBD, eh?
    In the world of Emergecy Medicine, we use that as an abbreviation for “Has Been Drinking”.
    Alerts one to ready to deal with possible total a-hole behaviour, up to and beyond risk of being barfed upon.
    Rather an apt metaphor for these good citizens.

  88. The Galdrux says

    What makes neoreactionaries like Mencius Moldbug and Nick Land interesting to me is not so much their (heretical) ideas about race, but the way they dare to deconstruct the “liberal consensus” and reveal its genealogical roots in Protestantism. I would think that the parallels between PC and Puritanism would trouble more atheist rationalists. But instead, what we see are many rather cowardly atheists, who instead of challenging the dogmatism and pseudo-Christian morality of modern “progressives”, seem all too willing to bow to its inquisitors and join them in pointing their fingers at the “racist” and “fascist” heretics among us. Real heroic, that.

    Neoreaction is a complex phenomenon that encompasses a diverse spectrum of people who feel their ideas are getting short shrift by the current memetic conquistadors. I think many of us are basically nihilists who try not to default to any moral position, since we don’t believe there is such a thing in a godless universe. What neoreactionaries do (and Nietzsche did long before them) is point out how many of the default moral positions of Western progressives are just cultural inheritances from Christianity, in a way that makes many of you uncomfortable. So neoreaction is like a Lovecraftian intrusion into the bogus moral order that Progressives, like Puritans before them, are attempting to impose upon the world. Neoreaction is unsettling to moralists, but it’s also a necessary antidote to progressive groupthink and totalitarianism.

  89. The Galdrux says

    I’m also curious why atheists are so quick to dismiss fascism; where in the laws of physics or evolution do you find your refutation? Fascism done right seems like a promising, efficient, effective system of government with the potential to defeat all competition. In fact, the way things are going we may get to see just that, if the liberal democracies continue to decline and a “national socialist” China and other nations continue to rise. Why is this a problem for atheists?

  90. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    I would think that the parallels between PC and Puritanism would trouble more atheist rationalists

    And those parallels would be what? Citation needed.Gee, I’m not bothered at all by amoral releativists who think they are above everybody else because they “dare to think outside of the box”. Show us the evidence, not your opinion of the evidence.

  91. says

    The Galdrux #101

    I’m also curious why atheists are so quick to dismiss fascism; where in the laws of physics or evolution do you find your refutation?

    Empathy. It’s this thing we use when we decide that morals need grounding on something other than a book of instructions handed down from on high.

  92. The Galdrux says

    Empathy is one value we’ve received from our evolutionary history, but so are tribalism, militarism, sexism and genocide. On what basis are you choosing to value empathy but deprecating the more “fascistic” aspects of our evolutionary heritage?

  93. Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive] says

    For fascism to work, we have to accept that some people have intrinsically greater worth than others.

    Who makes that determination? On what basis? What mechanism is there to prevent it from degrading into petty favoritism?

    Also, how do you know that you’d be at the top of the heap come your fascist revolution? That is what you assume, right? What makes you better and more qualified to hold power, wealth, and privilege than everyone else?

  94. says

    The Galdrux #104

    On what basis are you choosing to value empathy but deprecating the more “fascistic” aspects of our evolutionary heritage?

    Personal preference. I don’t want to live in a society where people are unnecessarily and avoidably harmed.

    This isn’t cosmology; when we’re talking of allowing or not allowing human suffering—an emotional state—we’re allowed to take our own emotional reactions to that suffering into account.

  95. says

    The Galdrux 100

    I would think that the parallels between PC and Puritanism would trouble more atheist rationalists.

    What the gibbering fuck are you on about?

    But instead…

    Nietzsche was a jackass and mental masturbator par exellence. The petty intellectual spooges you can produce are a poor pastiche of a boring blockhead.
    I will also note the irony of championing fascism immediately after expressing fears of creeping totalitarianism.
    101

    Fascism done right seems like a promising, efficient, effective system of government with the potential to defeat all competition.

    Fascism ‘done right’ is an oxymoron. Like libertarianism, it claims to be the most efficient and effective system and makes a great show of regimentation. Also like libertarianism, in practice the wealthy and powerful siphon off most of the wealth to sustain their sybaritic lifestyles while trying to keep up productivity through brutal penalties. This system inevitably collapses or mutates beyond recognition within a few (usually less than twelve) decades, less (usually much less) if they pick a fight with a nation that can match or exceed their military strength (which fascist regimes are prone to do).

    In fact, the way things are going we may get to see just that, if the liberal democracies continue to decline and a

    Citation needed.

    “national socialist” China and other nations continue to rise. Why is this a problem for atheists?

    Citation really needed. Growing GDP is not at all the same thing as ‘rising’. Leaving aside the problems involved in calculating GDP to begin with (China has been keeping theirs up by building ghost cities in the middle of nowhere, a project with at best dubious economic returns), they are sacrificing their future for it. China’s fisheries are declining to nonexistent, they’re losing tens of thousands of hectares of arable land every year to salinization, erosion, wind, and poor farming practices, and the air pollution in China’s cities is appalling. They aren’t a military threat to anyplace bigger than Bhutan, and if they actually tried conquering even a minor neighbor like that it would be like cutting their own throats.

  96. The Galdrux says

    Moldbug discusses the Puritan origins of progressivism in some detail here: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2009/01/gentle-introduction-to-unqualified.html . You really don’t see the parallels?

    I’ll grant that Nietzsche was a mental masturbator — what philosopher, artist, or writer doesn’t that label apply to? The point is he was a very powerful, insightful and entertaining mental masturbator, though his style is often lost on literal-minded, boring blockheads (i.e. about 96% of atheists I know).

    Anyway, I’m always baffled by atheists like you guys, who have somehow gotten from atoms and the void to moralizing about, say, progressivism, and think that this is not a ridiculous position. But as with believers in Yahweh and his prophets, if it fills your life with meaning and joy, then so be it. But if it conflicts my own meaning and joy (whatever I decide that is), then of course I can only say: See you on the battlefield!

  97. laurentweppe says

    Citation really needed. Growing GDP is not at all the same thing as ‘rising’.

    Especially when GDP numbers are fake by the current prime minister’s own admission.

    ***

    China has been keeping theirs up by building ghost cities in the middle of nowhere, a project with at best dubious economic returns

    Hey! it worked wonder in Libya, you know, apart from the “dear leader” being overthrown then raped to death with a bayonet, leaving his country ripe for sectarian violence when the local fundies failed to win the elections and its neighbours ripe for being plundered by his now unemployed mercenaries.

    ***

    They aren’t a military threat to anyplace bigger than Bhutan

    At least give them some credit: they’re great Jingoistic Dancers who learned Mao’s Paper Tigers lesson very well.

  98. Nick Gotts says

    The Gadrux,

    Ah, Nietzsche, the pretentious poseur’s favourite philosopher.

    I’m also curious why atheists are so quick to dismiss fascism; where in the laws of physics or evolution do you find your refutation? Fascism done right seems like a promising, efficient, effective system of government with the potential to defeat all competition.

    That you would think such a refutation would be found in “the laws of physics or evolution” just illustrates your stupidity. The refutation lies in what happened when fascism actually gained power: immense human suffering, political cultures built on lying, bullying, pseudoscience, hatred and toadying, and in the end, complete failure and the deservedly miserable fates of most of its “Übermensch” leaders.

    What neoreactionaries do (and Nietzsche did long before them) is point out how many of the default moral positions of Western progressives are just cultural inheritances from Christianity, in a way that makes many of you uncomfortable.

    You ignorant dolt; Nietzsche and “neoreactionary” fuckwits such as yourself are just as much influenced by cultural inheritances from Christianity as anyone else. It’s unavoidable, given the millennium and a half over which Christianity was culturally hegemonic in Europe. Racism, sexism, totalitarianism, militarism, antisemitism, genocide – all the major features of fascism – have deep roots in Christian culture, just as humanitarianism does. The great majority of fascists have been Christians.

    Anyway, I’m always baffled by atheists like you guys, who have somehow gotten from atoms and the void to moralizing about, say, progressivism, and think that this is not a ridiculous position.

    Your bafflement is easily explained: you’re ignorant, stupid, and so far up your own arse you can’t see anything, and can’t smell anything other than your own shit, which you clearly think possesses a fine fragrance. We all choose which elements of our evolutionary and cultural heritage to value and which to oppose; scumbags like you, Lane and Moldbug choose the values of fascism, others choose those of rationality and compassion. I won’t pretend I know who will win, but I do know that if your side do, it won’t be pseudo-inteellectual poseurs like you and Moldbug who actually end up on top.

  99. Nick Gotts says

    Oddly enough, I find that the majority of those who insist that atheists should, to be consistent, adopt Nietzschean or similar values, are Christians. They use exactly the same “arguments” as the Gadrux.

  100. The Galdrux says

    The great thing about atheism is that it liberates us; we are free to be racist or non-racist, fascist or liberal, progressive or regressive, etc. Since there is no moral order written in the stars nor any god to punish us for our sins, these things come down to who has the stronger will, the greater power and the better evolutionary fitness. I.e., a godless universe is essentially a fascist universe.

    The intellectual bullying on display here is a case in point; you have no argument except “you’re a scumbag fuckwit” or “I prefer vanilla ice cream to strawberry,” so let’s at least stop the moralist posing and admit that none of us has a good-guy badge — all we have are guns.

  101. says

    The Galdrux #112

    Since there is no moral order written in the stars nor any god to punish us for our sins, these things come down to who has the stronger will, the greater power and the better evolutionary fitness.

    Evolution (including natural selection of the “fittest”) is a great way to “create” diverse species without intelligent input. That very same lack of intelligent input makes it a fucking stupid way to build a society.

  102. says

    The Galdrux:

    these things come down to who has the stronger will, the greater power and the better evolutionary fitness. I.e., a godless universe is essentially a fascist universe.

    That’s not only a rather large pile of bullshit, it’s an old fermented pile of bullshit. Humans form communities, societies, and morals/ethics come from wanting the best for all peoples, and working together.

    All you have is a pile of fetid shit and fantasies of being a super fascist, with you sitting on top of your shitpile. It’s sad. Laughable, too.

  103. The Galdrux says

    But again Inaji, you offer little more than name-calling. Humans form all kinds of communities; some of them are liberal, some are fascist; some are racist; some are not; some are theocratic, some are secular, etc. You speak of diversity but demand conformity to your progressive ideology. And all this talk of “Wanting the best for all peoples” is a rather large pile of quasi-religious bullshit. I don’t give a flying fuck about that personally; I want what’s best for me and my kind, just like you guys do.

  104. Al Dente says

    Daz @118

    The Galdrux would probably be happier sitting in a cave and grunting “fire bad” to his fascist buddies.

  105. says

    Daz:

    Heaven forfend that we should try to improve on the “natural order.”

    Well, these doucheweasels spend all their time imagining that they would be on top of the food chain, superior to all, rather than being reality based at all.

  106. Al Dente says

    Daz @122

    I’m reminded of a Bill Maudlin cartoon from World War II: Two soldiers are sitting under a small tree in a rainstorm and one is saying to the other, “This damn tree leaks.”

  107. anteprepro says

    interesting to me is not so much their (heretical) ideas about race,

    Yeah, racism, how rebellious. *eyeroll*

    but the way they dare to deconstruct the “liberal consensus” and reveal its genealogical roots in Protestantism.

    If you think mainstream American culture is accurately described as a liberal consensus, and you think of Protestants as liberal, then no wonder you sympathize with fascism: you are fucking delusional.

    I would think that the parallels between PC and Puritanism would trouble more atheist rationalists.

    You would think the far more obvious and convincing parallels between your ideology is Nazism would trouble you. But nope.

    But instead, what we see are many rather cowardly atheists, who instead of challenging the dogmatism and pseudo-Christian morality of modern “progressives”, seem all too willing to bow to its inquisitors and join them in pointing their fingers at the “racist” and “fascist” heretics among us.

    Ironic considering how Christian most fascists were, that you claim that the morality that brings us to oppose such things is “pseudo-Christian”. Do you know how logic works? Or is that too Christian for ya too?

    I think many of us are basically nihilists who try not to default to any moral position, since we don’t believe there is such a thing in a godless universe.

    Congratulations on becoming living Straw Atheists.

    So neoreaction is like a Lovecraftian intrusion into the bogus moral order that Progressives, like Puritans before them, are attempting to impose upon the world. Neoreaction is unsettling to moralists, but it’s also a necessary antidote to progressive groupthink and totalitarianism.

    Neoreaction: For when you want to be an emo AND a bully.

    I’m also curious why atheists are so quick to dismiss fascism; where in the laws of physics or evolution do you find your refutation?

    Where in the laws of thermodynamics did you get permission to post stupid arguments on the internet?

    In fact, the way things are going we may get to see just that, if the liberal democracies continue to decline and a “national socialist” China and other nations continue to rise. Why is this a problem for atheists?

    Liberal democracies declining? China is Nazi now instead of totalitarian pseudo-communist? Again, delusional.

    Empathy is one value we’ve received from our evolutionary history, but so are tribalism, militarism, sexism and genocide. On what basis are you choosing to value empathy but deprecating the more “fascistic” aspects of our evolutionary heritage?

    On the basis of maximizing happiness and mutual well-being, through maintaining successsful, stable societies?

    Anyway, I’m always baffled by atheists like you guys, who have somehow gotten from atoms and the void to moralizing about, say, progressivism, and think that this is not a ridiculous position.

    I’m baffled by you living straw atheists who seem to think that because existence boils down to atoms, and because there are no Space Ghosts, that means fuck it, everything is pointless. Speaking of being influenced by Christian ideology: You are the kind of atheist that Christians think we should be. Without God, we cannot account for minds, cannot justify morality, cannot do anything but indulge ourselves with little regard for other people or for the value of life. Well, at least you and fundies can find common cause. In politics too! You were made for each other!

    Since there is no moral order written in the stars nor any god to punish us for our sins, these things come down to who has the stronger will, the greater power and the better evolutionary fitness. I.e., a godless universe is essentially a fascist universe.

    I’m sorry, but where in the laws of physics did you get your might makes right ideology?

    so let’s at least stop the moralist posing and admit that none of us has a good-guy badge — all we have are guns.

    Yes, because arguing about morality is simply disgusting. It is simply superior to settle things via violence.

    The Nazi seems to not hold high regard for logic, and is only interested in science insofar as supports their amorality. Surprise surprise.

    You speak of diversity but demand conformity to your progressive ideology.

    Because if there is any ideology that is about non-conformism, it is fascism!

    A Nazi who is a fuckwit? Say it ain’t say!

    And all this talk of “Wanting the best for all peoples” is a rather large pile of quasi-religious bullshit. I don’t give a flying fuck about that personally; I want what’s best for me and my kind, just like you guys do

    Mein Kampf, Nietzsche, and now Atlas Shrugged too huh?

    Verdict: Pseudointellectual asshole desperately trying to justify own assholishness.

  108. Anri says

    The Galdrux @ 116:

    But again Inaji, you offer little more than name-calling. Humans form all kinds of communities; some of them are liberal, some are fascist; some are racist; some are not; some are theocratic, some are secular, etc. You speak of diversity but demand conformity to your progressive ideology. And all this talk of “Wanting the best for all peoples” is a rather large pile of quasi-religious bullshit. I don’t give a flying fuck about that personally; I want what’s best for me and my kind, just like you guys do.

    So, your concern for humanity, in that case, is only limited by how narrow-mindedly you draw the circle of “your kind”. How narrow is that, for you?
    Are you so stunted that you can only care about people you agree with?
    People you are related to?
    People you enjoy the company of?
    How limited is your thinking about the rest of humanity?