Along comes the Playboy ethos.
What strikes me about this kind of advertising is the complete absence of empathy for the woman: she’s a fantasy object, and the man is the one doing all the fantasizing about the woman as a meat puppet. Yeah, it’s advertising targeted specifically for men, but only a certain kind of man: men who don’t like autonomous women.
I hope that’s a shrinking share of the market, but it’s ads like this that help keep it alive.
Wonder what Rebecca Watson would say about this? She’s used to coping with goons in elevators, I gather.
look, I’m just sayin’, is all.
(refers to comment #648 @ the linked thread)
Ed was informed about the “male gamers only” ad last week, and it was supposed to be blocked.
The issue with preview…our tech guy is trying to get the new home page done for release next week (I know, I believe we were talking about getting that done back in January), and that’s all he’s working on right now. I hope once that’s out we can get the niggling annoyances cleaned up.
I’d like to see this re-enacted on camera to test the average man. My guess is the 99.9% will be perfect gentlemen. I can’t imagine anything else, tho I know they’re out there.
As of c.24h ago, the “Rape me!” gamers ads (plural) were still being shown (in France). I don’t think I’ve seen one today, however…
What I’m now seeing is a whole shiteload of retirement plans (all frauds, I assume), both (judging by the currencies) USAlien ($) and British (£). Whilst admittedly nowheres near as blatantly offensive as the “Rape me!” gaming ads, I assume they are also preying on vulnerable people.
Press the button and — MACE TO THE FACE!
Honestly, they could have kept this to “only” a creepy male fantasy ad by replacing one of the floor buttons with a mysterious Playboy symbol instead, and play off the “what happens next” angle that way. But no, they opted to encourage potentially criminal behaviour instead.
“You’ve just trapped a woman in a confined space against her will. Imagine the fun that follows!” Press to play? What the fuck?
Not being able to “imagine anything else” and “guessing” while spouting statistics is the problem with making assumptions – and declarations – based on unexamined privilege.
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/
Between 4 and 8% of men will admit (if you phrase your questions without the word rape) to be serial rapists.
*being
Right, as opposed to the porn scenes that depict the rape explicitly. Those don’t help to keep that share of the market at all. It’s only harmful if it can’t be categorized without hesitation as porn. Once we follow through and enter the magical realm of fun liberal depictions of rapes, everything becomes contextless, cultureless and inconsequential.
That why I suggest testing it, like any scientific idea. An absurd add proves nothing. One rape and even one unwanted sexual proposition in an elevator or anywhere else is unacceptable. But it’s unfair for the average man to have to walk around with the label of ‘potential rapist’. There should be some perspective.
@ Howard: 8% of men are serial rapists?
I assume he means 99.9% of the guys in an elevator with a woman. Because anyone even thinking about pressing that button is out. Besides that perfect gentlemen is not the same as treating a woman as a human being, as chivalry can be and very often is pretty damn condescending.
When I watched the ad I was like… wait back up a second. Did you really just press the emergency stop button? You just trapped a stranger in an elevator! Can we acknowledge that? No? WTF is this a twin of a twin BS isn’t that just a triplet? Oh look she sneezes how awkward, yeah that would totally ruin the whole thing (sarcasm tag)… are we just not going to adress the fact that you trapped a stranger in an enclosed space? No? No of course not.
What a disgusting mess of an ad.
You stop the lift and your mother beats you to within an inch of your life for getting her stuck in a lift. Now to look up Stephen Fry’s Freudian joke.
@thomasbloom: Did you follow the link?
I haven’t seen the “male gamers only” ads here but have in other places. I do get a LOT of “free energy” scam ads here. Lately they’re from “Power4Patriots”. You could see about blocking those as well.
Just to be clear, this is what the link is considering:
This is the best and most recent science available on the subject.
Oh, and speaking of ads on FTB, the “Empowering Women Through Secularism” conference in Dublin ad is either a month out of date or about 10 months early.
@11 Jose
I don’t know who that was directed at exactly, but yes, broadly speaking, having a dirty sexual fantasy you don’t act on isn’t the same as presenting rapiness as a normal, acceptable attribute of the typical male.
@12 thomasbloom
Consider every man who currently lives. Now consider the number of those men who’d say things like “How can you rape a prostitute?”
8% is a VERY conservative estimate.
@12 Howard is referring to a study summarized in the linked article that interviewed 1146 newly enlisted navy sailors. The group of 1146 individuals identified 865 attempted rapes. However 95% of those were committed by just 96 people, or 8.4% of the sample.
Thus the 8% summary of the summary.
The sample size is pretty decent, but I don’t know how representative of society at large enlisted navy is (no officers, or people with greater privilege/power/wealth).
But, as the article notes, it’s about within error of other studies that concluded 6% or so as well.
What’s particularly interesting (in a horrible sort of way), is the amazing amount of concentration it has. For women, odds are good of running into one of the 6-8%, but it’d likely be harder for guys to see it. It’s a sizable portion of the remaining 92%, and society at large, that provides the cover, excuses, and rationalizations those 8% need to both get away with it, and feel supported in their violent misogyny.
So yeah. Right now the evidence suggests that 6-9% of men are serial rapists.
It’s very late here, and just a few too many, but one other thing to throw out: How many women would want to walk around with the label “potential gold digger” or “potential poisoner”. Why not test it, or do some statistical analysis, not just label men as bad? I’m not bad. Even drunk I’m pretty nice.
@Thomasbloom 12:
What makes the average man so special that it excludes them from the rapist category a-priori? Because to not even be a potential rapist in someones eyes they must have a decent amount of trust in you. I don’t expect random women on the street (or in an elevator) to trust me that much. Especcially when society makes it pretty damn clear whose fault they deem it when a woman doesn’t take all the possible precautions and more.
@22 thomasbloom
How is labeling less than 1/10 of men the same as labeling all men?
Why do you feel the need to challenge the idea that even a small percentage of men do bad things? ime way more than 1/10 of ANY group population are bastards in one way or another.
Thomasbloom, Consider the consequences of being wrong. If a woman opts not to get to know a guy who turns out to be “nice”. She can live without that. OTOH, if she opts to get to know a potential rapist, that could cost her her life. My question is why, given that 1 in 12 guys are a threat to her existence, would she even bother to give a guy the time of day?
What in the world did I just watch? Granted, I didn’t have the sound on, but did it make any more sense with it?
…statistical analysis like that link I gave you, that explains how you (yes, YOU) can help change this?
Don’t want women to treat all men like rapists?
Then LET’S START BY ELIMINATING RAPE JOKES.
Rape jokes let serial rapists know that other men will let them get away with rape and laugh about it.
Let’s start by believing women who tell us they’re raped. Do you know how many women in your country have been raped? Check official statistics, and get back to me.
Remember, serial rapists. Not one-time rapists. SERIAL RAPISTS.
Engage with the data, Thomasbloom.
Press the button and what happens next – she probably justifiably thinks you are a creepy arsehole. She may well fear for her safety. You have also just committed a criminal act, so it is possible that what may happen a few steps down the line is that you will face prosecution (though this is far less likely than it should be, given our legal system’s messed up attitude toward this kind of thing). That she finds you ‘bold’ and thus attractive? Not so much.
Frankly, I prefer Kagato’s scenario @ 7;
Kagato is referring to the chemical substance, but I was thinking more of a medieval flanged mace. That should cool the ardour of your avergae elevator creep.
Of course, a flying, magical talking mace that mocks the sexist arsehat as you belabour him with it would be even better…
Do you lock your house when you leave for the day, or your car when you park it in a parking lot? Why do you label everyone in your neighborhood a potential thief?
@Jim Vernon,
Same here. With the sound off it’s still creepy, but it’s also completely incomprehensible.
@Howard, I did not make and would not make any joke about rape. I mentioned rape in the extreme negative. You’re nuts.
@Sharkjack, Because the average man is not a rapist, nor is the average woman a gold digger.
@Zibble, “How is labeling less than 1/10 of men the same as labeling all men?” Exactly.
….. or it turns out the woman is a plain clothes Police officer. Pile on the charges!
@Carlie, I don’t lock my doors. My neighbors are poor but honest, and they trust me the same. No one would want my bicycle, it’s too big for them.
@thomasbloom
You do know it is possible to express disagreement without calling into question someone’s mental state, correct?
Is it the ads that keep the market alive, or the market that keeps the ads alive? More depressing if it’s the latter.
@thomasbloom
You are a potential rapist. I am a potential rapist. I am also a potential sandwich, as are you.
Whether or not you qualify as that thing is entirely up to you, or possible some kind of very large predatory sandwich-making creature. Potential thing =/= thing. Keep up.
thomasbloom #31, you weren’t accused of making rape jokes here in this thread, you were told one very large socialisation reform that would remove cover from the serial rapists who are currently flying under your radar. Be one of the blokes who walks away in disgust from anybody who makes a rape joke, telling them why you’re doing it as you go. Don’t let those guys think that all the other blokes would do the exact same thing they’re doing because all the chaps are laughing along at the funny old rape joke.
You know who told me the first rape joke I ever heard? My uncle, and he and my dad cracked up over it because it was a really old campfire joke that made them feel nostalgic. I was 9 years old at the time, and then they kept on telling “punny” campfire jokes about rape for the next 10 minutes or so. Nobody even thought it was worth commenting on at the time, it’s only in retrospect that it absolutely horrifies me.
Be honest now – do you or do you not know what the punchline is to the one about the woman screaming “Grape! Grape!”? If you do know it, did you ever challenge the person(s) you heard it from?
I didn’t accuse you of making a rape joke. You asked a question, and I answered it. If you’re going to get peeved about that, instead of engaging with the data, then I’m afraid we aren’t going to have a very productive conversation.
Of course. But, OTOH, I don’t walk around all day carrying a concealed weapon. Some degrees of paranoia are excessive and we each have to decide where to draw the line.
Last Post
@ Sophia, Michelin-starred General of the First Mediterranean Iron Chef Batallion
and @ tigtog
I think I’m of to bed as the soberest bloke here. @Yazikus, feel free to disagree
Still a potential sandwich. Also a potential ballistic missile. Isn’t it fun how many things we all are in potentia, and how it’s only the opinion of an observer that assigns those states of potentia! :D
@Howard 31:
That’s why we use the word potential. You cannot expect a woman to put every man in the category “cannot be a rapist”, so they go in the not “cannot be a rapist” category AKA a potential rapist. Unless you expect women to be psychic and able to tell immediately who is and who isn’t a rapist, this is the standard way of looking at things. Also the don’t label me stuff gets old real fast. It’s not like it’s something actively put on you, it’s a passive personal assessment. One that you can change into something more positive, allthugh it’s allways up to the observer what they label you, since it’s their mind and all.
thomasbloom @ 12;
Consider the point of view of women who have to live in our society. The concept of Schrodinger’s Rapist is not merely some empty soundbite; as explained upthread with links, there are a minority of men – and not as small a minority as many people would like to believe – who are serial rapists. There is evidence that men are more likely to admit to having raped if the term ‘rape’ itself is not used. And all this must be considered in the knowledge that the vast majority of rapes go unreported. We do not even know what the true perecentage of men who rape would be if all rapes could be taken into account, leaving 8% more than likely a rather conservative figure.
The trouble is that rapists cannot be easily spotted by virtue of having horns, a trident, a tail, and a rather ruddy complexion – rapists look just like any other man, right up until they rape. There is no way for a woman to know whether this man she has just met is harmless or not.
When you combine this with a patriarchal culture that has created a dominant social discourse that places the blame for rape principally on the victim *major trigger warning* – Why was she out so late?/Why was she in that kind of neighbourhood?/Why did she dress like that?/Why did she drink so much?/What did she do to ‘lead him on’? etc. – and has a commensurate tendency to excuse the rapist – She probably enjoyed it but just got cold feet the next morning./But was it really rape? Weren’t they an item at one time?/She must have been sending him mixed messages./Why all the fuss? She should consider herself lucky that he even wanted to have sex with her., and so on – then women have every reaon to be cautious of any man they meet. The specific man in any given circumstance probably isn’t dangerous, but by assuming that he might be they lose little. Assuming that he is not a threat when he is could cost them everything, up to and including their lives, and will certainly place them in the crosshairs of pious, judgmental attitudes that trade in toxic tropes about ‘that kind of woman’.
That society still doesn’t take rape very seriously is made evident by continuing low conviction rates when viewed alongside other personal assaults of comparable seriousness. Even where victims brave the often life destroying social stigma of coming forward to report their rapes the police often refuse to take the complaint seriously, in many cases failing to act at all. An attitude that is them repeated within the court system. Then there is the ongoing spread and popularity of rape jokes; few things could express more clearly how little our society cares about rape victims than when their trauma is held up as a source of cheap laughs.
With all that to consider, why should any woman give any man the benefit of the doubt? We blokes sure as the fictional hell-trope haven’t earned it.
And @ 22;
No one is labelling all men as ‘bad’ – what is being acknowledged is that a minority of men are serial rapsist, and that we live in a culture that functions to support, enable, and offer validation to those rapists while condemning their victims. Given this situation, many women will reasonably consider it prudent to view any men they encounter with suspicion until they can become confident that he does not pose a threat, if they are ever able to determine that at all. This is not a case of women unfairly demonising men; this is a case of women taking essential steps to protect themselves and mitigate their risk.
Until society – a still male dominated, highly patriarchal society, let’s not forget – changes its attitude and stops blaming rape victims for their rape and makes some credible effort to to place the onus on men not to rape, rather than on women (and other victims of rape) to avoid being raped, then men like myself will just have to accept that when a woman sees you doing something like walking down an alley after her at night – however innocent your reason for being there might be – she is right to be concerned, and you should consider those reasonable fears before you take any action that might put someone in such a position.
Watson situation; nearly non-issue. Hitting the stop button; attempted rape.
“You want to spice things up, so you press the emergency button. Here’s what could happen:
She finds you creepy, says no, and then a few days later remarks “guys… don’t do that.” You then harass her and threaten to rape and kill her for the forseeable future.
New Playboy shower gels for him.”
Being cautious and alert around a stranger is not the same as “carrying a concealed weapon”.
Fixed that for you.
@42, Sharkjack
I think you meant to address that to Thomasbloom.
@Thomasbloom:
Now you think women are being overly cautious, but weren’t you just expressing surprise that large surveys find 4-8% of men are serial rapists? Again, you have to deal with the data before you can really begin to decide what is and isn’t cautious enough.
Why are all these perfect gentlemen hitting the stop button when a woman they find attractive steps on the elevator?
Sure, maybe they have nowhere to go, but perhaps the reason the woman got into the elevator is so that she could go to the floor she wanted.
What exactly is the harm done to a particular man by a woman sizing him up as a potential rapist? She’ll clutch her keys tighter in her hand when he approaches? She’ll walk faster when she exits the elevator? She *gasp* won’t talk to him? Oh, the horror.
How many women would want to walk around with the label “potential gold digger” or “potential poisoner”. Why not test it, or do some statistical analysis, not just label men as bad? I’m not bad. Even drunk I’m pretty nice.
This is so vague as to be meaningless. Can you give us some specifics as to what you’re complaining about? Some questions to start with:
1 – What are your objections to the way that women (on average) treat you today? I’m hoping you can name some specific acts, not generalities like, “They think I’m a potential rapist.”
2 – What would they need to do differently in order to make you happy?
3 – What motivation do they have to make these changes? (If you’re asking them to increase their level of acceptable perceived risk, then I think hazard pay would be appropriate.)
On the plus side, at least one of her alternate universe iterations is an assassin and gets to shoot him. Although it would have been more satisfying if they’d left out the eye problems and just had her shoot him for trapping her in the elevator.
Thomasbloom #22
Not from the evidence in this thread.
A small grab bag of metaphors.
I presume every strange dog I encounter is a biter until proven otherwise. Am I condemning all dogs ‘prima facie’ not blindly trusting them? Yep, based on a evidenced history that it doesn’t matter breed or size, dogs bite and even little ones can rip your face off if you stick it within reach. Am I cringing away at the sight of a dog on the street? Nope, but I do take note of it and its proximity and whether it’s leashed or otherwise controlled.
I take note of vehicular traffic even when I have right of way as a pedestrian crosssing the street. Am I condemning all drivers ‘prima facie’, not blindly trusting them? Yep, based on evidenced history that legal crossings don’t matter when drivers barrel through them, heedless.
When there is a litany of evidenced history for something, like men forcing degrees of unwanted interaction upon women, who then take the brunt of the aftermath of those interactions, why do so many men get pissy about being an unknown quantity that needs Risk Management S.T.O.P analysis applied to them? Constant risk assessment is a quality considered an asset in military forces and job sites, so why deny its value to people up against a daily routine requiring the same personal safety diligence?
The fact the individual must expend extra diligence in having to look out for personal safety is hard enough without being dismissed by people who won’t lift a finger to clean up the work site because its hazards don’t personally impact them. Yet.
cuervoduecero #53, QFFT.
It’s interesting that some people seem to not be able to grasp the difference between “X” and “potential X”.
Are all men potential rapists? Absolutely! Are all men rapists? Of course not!
However, it’s an established fact that a certain proportion of men are rapists, and that rapists appear pretty much the same as non-rapists, particularly if they’re unfamiliar to you.
Nobody is accusing anyone of being a rapist without evidence. All that’s happening is that people are acknowledging that a certain proportion of men are rapists, and that we don’t know which ones they are until they rape someone. ‘Potential X’ does not necessarily = X.
@ Anthony K
Are you aware of the difference between a stupid TV add and reality? There is no ‘stop for rape-sex’ button on any elevator. The ‘perfect gentlemen pushing the stop button’ are FICTION. Jesus fucking christ.
@ John Phillips, FCD
What would you have me, or any average man do differently? From my posts, I treat women with respect and consider rape and even unwanted sexual proposals unacceptable. What have I got wrong?
What is it that you expect women to do differently, and what impact would that have on you? Please answer Chaos Engineer’s questions at #50.
Sweet Zombie Jesus, that ad needs some trigger warnings. It damn near triggered me, and I’m not even a sexual assault survivor.
Hey thomasbloom, that sense of indignation that you are feeling about being a potential rapist? That’s male privilege. Try looking at it from a woman’s point of view–in a world where at least 1 in 4 women have been sexually assaulted (and probably more), how would feel if you were in an elevator with a man and he hit the stop button?
Empathy. Compassion. Humility. Try them, you might find your indignation fading away.
Pretty sure it’s the latter. Ad writers put a lot of thought and effort into knowing who their target audience is and what will appeal to them.
read and digest #53 and you might, just might, understand the difference between a potential rapist and an actual rapist and why the average woman has to make risk assessments all the time. The only information she has to go on is that something like 1 in 6 women suffer sexual assault and between 1 in 12 and 1 in 16 men are serial rapists. I.e. the odds are that, best case, 1 in 16 of the men she passes in her day are serial rapists and she has no way of distinguishing them from the non-rapist.
Plus in the right/wrong situation, a proportion of the non-rapists, while they will not rape her, will sexually assault her if given the opportunity, so the overall risk of some negative outcome is even higher. She also knows that if she is raped or sexuality assaulted a significant portion of society will blame her rather than the assaulter or rapist. So if you were a woman in today’s situation knowing all that, how would you look at males you knew nothing about.
#60 of course is a reply to thomasbloom.
@Carlie
First you answer my question: What do you think the average man should do other than chose not to make unwanted sexual advances and rape?
Explain your experiment that draws its inspiration from the ad.
How cute. Bloomey think he’s in charge.
Well, for one, the average man should probably not scream “Hey, but I’m a good guy, so shut up about commercials! They’re not reality!” when the commercial in question is actually one that celebrates women’s lack of agency.
So, the fellow in the ad is not a perfect gentleman. And yet, the ad is suggesting that his behaviour is the right thing to do. That’s the issue here.
And its in this context that you chose to toss in your (completely pulled out of your ass) assertion that 99.9% of men would be ‘perfect gentlemen’.
‘
What do you think you’re being asked to do? I’m just asking you not to support rape culture.
Well, for starters, I’d say that – given that study after study of men who are serial rapists (i.e. those ~8% of men) indicates that those men think that they are typical, I’d say:
DISABUSE THEM OF THAT.
How?
Studies show that those 8% of men support their belief that they are typical by pointing to things like the toleration of rape jokes – a rape joke is made, all/most of the men laugh, the serial rapist says, “These guys all think like me – rape is no big deal.”
Studies show that those 8% of men support their belief that they are typical by pointing to things like rape myths – since the average non-rapist guy would agree with the statement that “a woman wearing a short skirt is more likely to be raped than a woman dressed more modestly,” the rapist thinks that this gives him permission to be predatory towards women wearing short skirts.
Want to help? When someone makes a rape joke on it, call them on joking about bodily and psychological harm being visited upon someone. How is that funny?
@47 Howard:47
Yes this was very much meant for Thomasbloom. It’s probably because the first thing his post is on is a reply to you that I made the mistake.
I’d still like Thomasbloom to address that he understands the difference between potentially being something (from a strangers perspective no less) and actually being something.
Holy frack, that’s awful. And that the ending is basically suggesting that men go out and try this – what is wrong with people?
It’s just astounding that there are so many men out there who don’t see the problem with this. So let’s reverse the scenario, shall we?
You’re alone in a hotel and you get on the elevator. There’s a man in it already, but you’re tired, you want to get to your room, and how likely is he to really try anything on a short elevator ride, so you press the button for your floor and trust that the odds will be in your favor. Suddenly he presses the emergency stop. There’s no alarm associated with it on this elevator for some reason. Did he know that in advance? You realize he’s standing in front of the only control panel so that there’s no way you can reach it. At least not without putting yourself within inches of him. He outweighs you by about a hundred pounds and you suddenly notice that he’s staring intensely at you….
Yeah, he’s just flirting and having a little fun, right? No reason for you to feel threatened, right? Surely your fear is irrational? Or maybe it’s OK as long as he looks like an Italian model? Or maybe he stopped being a gentleman when he pressed the emergency stop.
O hey! It’s time to link to The Grease Dilemma again, for a reminder of how rape culture manifests and what average dudes could do to oppose it!
@thomasbloom – There are stop buttons on nearly every elevator. Many sound alarms, but not all do. Apparently you haven’t ridden many elevators.
Also: I, for one, couldn’t care less about being perceived as a “potential gold-digger” (whatever that is) by random dudes. Really, what’s the harm, to me?
Thomasbloom, thank you so much for serving as this week’s object lesson in “How To Be a Rape Culture Denialist.”
I would love to see that as a public service announcement commercial endorsed by the Fraternal Order of Police.
Be thoughtful. Realize that women have every reason to hold non-zero belief that a strange man rapes. Realize that, to most women, you are a stranger. Then, don’t behave in ways that are likely to creep women out. It’s really, really easy.
Also: realize that you don’t deserve the attention of any woman. She is free to ignore you. She doesn’t have to make small talk with you. She sure as hell doesn’t have to smile for you. She can choose to avoid you altogether. You do not have the right to try to force her to interact with you and still be thought of as “not a jerk”.
How about another ad where the woman gets off at the next floor, A large scary looking man gets on, looks sexually at the young man and pushes the stop button?
Would a few privileged males get the point then?
I’ll take a stab @ Carlie 66, who seems to say that if I refuse to make unwanted advances and never have considered rape, I’m supporting rape culture. Right. A non sequitur if I ever saw one.
My interest in this blog was evolutionary biology. How this has gotten so far afield?
mikee – heck no, that would be played for comedy.
Big scary guy gets on elevator.
Narrator: “Playboy for him. So good…”
Big guy hits stop button, leers and smiles at other guy
Narrator: “You never know who might notice.”
Close-up on other guy with exaggerated horror/scared look on face
End scene
Nope. Supporting rape culture is whining about how mean it is of women to act defensively around strangers because they’re supposed to instead be able to psychically discern which guys are actual rapists and which are not. You still haven’t said how it actually affects you one way or the other, though.
You’re looking for this.
You’re a despicable, dishonest fuck.
So who fucking cares?
You opened your goddamn trap about a something you apparently don’t care about, and clearly know nothing about.
Next time, shut your goddamn, lying, know nothing mouth.
The first thing that you must do differently is examine your knee-jerk reaction to this ad. It wasn’t “OMG, creepy ad is promoting rape.” it was “OMG, its so unfair to be considered a potential rapist because I am a perfect gentleman.”.
In other words, it isn’t about you and your precious male fee-fees, so shut-up about them.
The vast majority of rapes and sexual assaults are not reported because of that same knee-jerk reaction. Assault victims do not need the further trauma of having their assaults doubted by other perfect gentlemen.
Anthony K #81, I’ll second that motion.
Hey Thom, now you get to answer the questions in #50, since Carlie was gracious enough to engage with you.
thomasbloom @ 78,
As you were unaware of / totally astonished by the research showing that 8% or so of men are serial rapists, as you then fell into the logical fallacy of thinking this was all about your hurt feelings and as you appear not to have taken in the meaning of cuervodecuero’s excellent post at 53 or any of the other references to rational risk assessment then we know exactly where to place you.
You belong in that rather large and generally boring cohort of people who have not yet done enough to prevent rape. Why? Because you don’t know, you don’t care and you want the cookie anyway because you’ve not actually raped anyone – yet!
Tough! Because there aren’t enough cookies for us to go around handing them out to anyone who has not committed a particular crime. Besides, some of us are far too busy trying to prevent rape.
Capice?
If they were perfect gentlemen, they wouldn’t press the fucking stop button.
As long as the scary man is not black, because then we open up an entirely new can of worms…
I was going to reply, but then I refreshed the page beforehand and @80 Carlie’s post said everything I was going to say to @78 Thomasbloom anyway, but far more succint, so I’ll refrain from doing that.
One thing I’ll say though is that why I’ll try to call out people for making rape jokes, sometimes the impact social pressure has on me still keeps me from saying it. That is something that pisses me off about myself. It’s not because I’m trying to be some knight in shining armor, I don’t do it for teh cookies. It just pisses me off that I let social pressure keep me silent when I know I should be saying something. That pressure is part of rape culture. And that’s just me, I can step out any time I want and not have to worry about it. I can only imagine the impact it has on the people that take the brunt of it without being able to just walk away.
This fact that this ad even exists rather disproves the idea that 99.9% of men are perfect gentlemen.
A perfect gentleman would not conceive of this ad. A perfect gentleman would not greenlight it. A perfect gentleman would not agree to make it. A perfect gentleman would not agree to direct it. A perfect gentleman would not agree to act it in. A perfect gentleman would not speak of this ad except to condemn it.
Speaking of creepy ads how about the following, which just started airing in Canada? Woman is suddenly pregnant after man puts on Brute. Yeah, because a woman being impregnated without her permission is just so funny.
Sorry about the imbed. Previewing the post didn’t indicate the ad would appear.
thomasbloom,
Hm, thomasbloom? Seriously? What part of “it’s advertising targeted specifically for men, but only a certain kind of man: men who don’t like autonomous women” made you get so defensive all of a sudden?
Others have answered this but, well, okay, let’s say you (or the “average man”, or whatever) already do everything right all the time and nothing wrong and the answer to those questions is therefore “nothing”.
So what? What do you want? Do you want women to be less alert when around strange men? Do you want us to shut up about rape culture? Do you want us to never bring up statistics like the one @#9 and to never mention that there are some men who do not treat women like autonomous human beings?
Come on. What is it we all should do for you to stop whining about how “not bad” and “pretty nice” you are?
Here are 101 everyday ways for men to be allies to women. With that many, there are going to be several that people won’t agree with, but you might take a glance at it if you’re saying you have absolutely no idea how to counter misogynistic cultural forces.
carlie,
That link is not working.
It works for me, Maureen. Here’s the URL: http://michaelurbina.com/101-everyday-ways-for-men-to-be-allies-to-women/
Thanks, Al Dente – can you get to either of them, Maureen?
Was kinda hoping one of them would knee him in the nadgers, rabbit punch him and steal his wallet
Thanks. That second link works fine. The valley is flooded again tonight so that may be what’s making my internet access a bit dodgy.
(In case that sounds a bit like trolls in the forest – a single main road goes up the narrow valley and all services follow it’s line so when the road floods, as it has tonight, then lights flicker, internet conks out and sewage system backs up. We haven’t got to that last yet. Fingers crossed.))
I’d like to play too. “You push the ‘stop’ button and…”
The woman is Emma Peel. She immediately incapacitates you with several painfully well-placed karate chops. You crumple to the floor with a whimper. When the elevator door opens, Steed looks in, pokes you in the kidney with his umbrella then tells you, “Let that be a lesson to you, old chap.”
(Sadly, this scenario shows my age. I wonder how many people know who I’m talking about?).
*applause* for cuervodecuero
–
QFT.
And so is that unquestioned assumption that it’s the women who are wrong, and should change to conform to your expectations.
–
thomasbloom, read this: Changing the Creepy Guy Narrative
Perspective, dude. You need some.
–
In the obviously-displayed opinions of those responsible for this ad, there is a sufficiently large target audience of men who will find it acceptable (i.e., not the “perfect gentlemen” of thomasblooms’ imagining), as to make it a worthwhile expenditure of resources for their purposes.
–
He wants women to be less alert/on guard when around him, ’cause we should (somehow) be able to tell that he is special.
–
sadunlap
I know what you’re talking about.
I spent a significant portion of my childhood wanting to be Mrs. Peel.
Nail on the head.
And then she just gives him a “WTF?” look, and he gets kinda uncomfortable and embarrassed, pushes the button to start the elevator again and wishes for the ground to swallow him up while he apologizes.
Oh yeah, I’d like to see that. I could then imagine assholes really backing off even if I can’t kick their ass, and then the next step being not pushing that button at all. Like, the next scene of the commercial being the same guy imagining how he’d like to get stuck in the elevator with her, maybe glancing at the button for a second, and then just standing there until his floor. Boring, I know.
Of course there could also be the sci fi option of the woman morphing into some sort of predatory alien, werewolf, vampire who the idiot has just trapped himself in a confined space with.
One of my colleagues is a confident, karate black belt who, I could imagine would give a guy who did this such a stare that he would probably wet himself.
Of course the advert is shit. Two of the many ways to get attention in this world are to fling pearls or fling shit. Shit is cheaper, and we’re all talking about it, so it’s achieving the purpose of adverts. That doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t talk about it — negative feedback is important.
——————————–
but to continue the “You push the stop button and. . . ” theme :
“You push the stop button, and an alarm starts loudly ringing and a bucket of cold water is dumped on your head, snapping you out of your idiotic male fantasy. Then the elevator restarts.
or, more fantasy-like*
You push the stop button and suddenly the rest of the elevator continues, while the small square of floor you were standing on stops in mid-air. You’re now 129ft up in the air, with no way down, Asshole.
You push the stop button, and suddenly you’re dressed in the clothes your mom picked out for you, you have a big giant neon “L” on your forehead, and you smell like week-old dick cheese.
(*fantasy-like : I really wanted to use the archaic “fantastic” but I thought people would misunderstand.)
I’m just paraphrasing the ad intro, but I feel I should trigger warning this anyway for the mental imagery it might suggest. That’s how tone deaf this campaign is.
Woman walks in to elevator
“You find yourself sharing an elevator with a stranger, when he suddenly reaches over and presses the emergency stop button.
Here’s what could happen.”
cut to black
Changing virtually nothing but the point of view makes this a very different sort of ad campaign.
thomasbloom? As Rey Fox pointed out, carlie replied; it’s your turn to answer the questions.
Not very gentlemanly of you not to keep your word.
thomasbloom:
Your first comment in this thread mentioned “perfect gentleman”. How do _you_ define that?
For my part, I do not strive to be a perfect gentleman.
I strive to be a respectful person*.
*please note that this covers interactions with people of all genders, rather than the-how shall I put it-protector/provider “gentleman” which typically refers to how men are supposed to “treat a lady”.
After Dear Muslima, Dawkins suggested that pushing elevator buttons was a good method of escaping.
Kagato @ 108;
*Trigger warning*
To further expand upon that idea, and really hammer home the point about unexamined male privilege, you could have the scenario where the oblivious misogynist idiot reaches to press the stop button, and just before his fingers reach it his perspective suddenly shifts. The scene cuts to the man looking at himself through the eyes of the woman, with an internal monologue carried out in his own voice where he experiences the fear that this situation would cause for the woman – trapped in an elevator by a strange man whose agenda is unknown, who is far stronger than you are, and who is now leering at you. No way out, no means of calling for help, no witnesses, and the knowledge that society will almost certainly blame you for what happens now. Apart from anything else, you don’t even know if you are going to get out of this elevator alive.
Just as his level of panic reaches a fever pitch, he is suddenly returned to his own body. His hand falls away from the stop button. He is drenched in terror-induced sweat and on the point of hyperventilating. The woman gives him an odd look as she gets out on her floor; she is unsure what is going on with him, and decides that a swift exit is probably best. The elevator doors close, and it continues its assent to his floor. He slides down the elevator wall and crumples into a traumatised, crying heap on the floor.
The scene fades to black, and the tagline appears ‘if you could see things from her point of view, maybe you wouldn’t be such a misogynistic arsehole.’
Subtle? No, but subtlety rarely has any impact on privileged dudebros anyway – the only way to get through to them is by battering them over the head with the point you are making in the hope that it may finally sink it.
Thomasbloom,
No. No, you are not a nice guy or a perfect gentleman and no, you are not a friend to women. You’re oozing privilege and being both dense and incredibly rude. You not only expect women to disregard their own safety and lived experiences so thoroughly that they can control their thoughts and feelings to please you, but you stooped to complaining that this post wasn’t about what you prefer to read about, as if that mattered. You are hand waving and excusing rape culture as you deny it and telling us all to hush and do as you say because you are such a Nice Guy and your fee-fees are what really matter. You are supporting rape culture. Part of rape culture is pressuring people not to talk about rape and the culture that supports it. Part of rape culture is keeping survivors silent. If you really care about being a decent person; Shut up and listen. You are not informed. You lack perspective. You are being a jerk.
Fuck’s sake, man.
You came for science, so we played with numbers and large surveys, and you RAN AWAY FROM THE DATA.
You wanted to talk about subjective risk, and so PEOPLE TALKED ABOUT THAT.
And you ran away from that too.
Every time people have tried to engage with you, you have run away. Every single time.
Because wrapping yourself in your ignorance is so very important. Why?
If you’re not a rapist, and you’re a “perfect gentleman,” then why is it so burdensome and terrible for you to consider ways to try to stop rapists, to try to stop the normalization of rape, to try to halt rape culture?
thomasbloom @ 78;
You have grossly misrepresented Carlie’s position. @ 66 Carlie wrote;
A person can ‘refuse to make unwanted advances and never consider rape’ while still supporting rape culture. This is not the non sequitur you believe it to be, because people who have never raped or made what they would consider unwanted advances can still attempt to derail a thread about rape culture into being all about them and how their feelings are hurt because women may not automatically trust them.
They can still create false equivalencies between the legitmate fears women have for their personal safety and misogynistic, regressive myths that women are all ‘gold diggers’.
The can still demand explanations for why women have these concerns, only to ignore the evidence provided and attempt to move the goal posts when people show them that those fears have a rational basis supported by data.
And of course;
They can attampt to silence discussions about the topic of rape culture by complaining that the conversation that they barged into does not cover their preferred topic of interest and by suggesting that what is afterall a biology, atheism, and social justice focussed blog site is somehow an innappropriate forum for discussing rape culture.
You may not see it, but your actions here are those of a rape culture apologist. The very fact that you see yourself as a ‘nice guy’ and a ‘perfect gentleman’, while simultaneously whining about how awful it is that women actually look out for themselves and so might be cautious around you and other men they don’t know, speaks volumes about how much unexamined male privilege you have. The concept of the ‘perfect gentleman’ is a myth, and frankly a rather pernicious one. You might want to consider that a decent human being, who happens to be as man, might have a bit more empathy for the situation of women, rather than droning on at such length about how the attitudes women find forced upon them by the unpleasant realities of their day to day lives bruises his precious feelings.
QFFT
Also, Gregory, I would love the SHIT out of an ad like your 112.
I don’t know how many real-life rapes are committed in elevators, but it strikes me as an extremely risky proposition for the rapist. His victim might be trapped in an enclosed space, but so is he. Eventually the door will open, and he has no way of knowing how many witnesses, or even potential captors, will be on the other side when it does. Not to mention possible security cameras in the lobby, or even in the elevator itself.
How about this for an alternative scenario:
“You push the Stop button. She turns to you, smiles suggestively, and slowly starts to unbutton her blouse. After three buttons, she darts between you and the control panel, starts the elevator, and presses the button for the nearest floor. As the car rises, she rips the undone buttons off her blouse, grips her own arm hard enough to leave a bruise, and scratches you hard enough to get skin under her nails, all the while screaming hysterically.
“When the car stops, the door opens on a crowd of a dozen people. She screams ‘He tried to rape me!’. The crowd swarms you and beats you to tatters. When you regain consciousness, you are chained to a hospital bed. Shortly, a policeman arrives and reads you your rights.”
Wtf?
….
No.
rexlitlle,
This is a science blog. We deal in facts not in long-disproven and corrosive fantasies.
Yeah, bystanders totally side against rapists! Just look at the dozens and hundreds of bystanders in the Steubenville case, who… um… wait, no, bystander apathy and even participation is a horrifying part of rape culture.
See, rexlittle’s thought experiment is presuming that the woman is conventionally attractive and white, while the man is “scary-looking,” such as (for example) him being a big black guy.
Wow, rxlittle, and you didn’t even have sex with her! If any random woman can do what you described and say you “tried” to rape her, the world SURE IS a dangerous place! Maybe you should just stay at home from now on. Or wear clothes that make you look like less of a person who deserves to be accused of rape. And getting into an elevator with a woman, alone? WELL. I’m not saying you asked for it, I’m just saying that some behaviours greatly increases your risk of being victim of a crime.
I’m just talking common sense precautions here, of course.
rexlittle @ 118;
But you are happy to opine that women must be lying about the risk of rape in such scenarios anyway. Not that you are going into this with any unreasonable presuppositions, of course…
And he is most likely much stronger than she is, limiting the risk of physical injury to him. There are also no witnesses to hand, and she has no ready means of escape or summoning aid. I’m not really seeing the huge risk to the rapist here.
He could easily assess the risk, using factors like how active the building is and what time of day it is, to determine the reasonable liklihood that anyone will be around. And even if there were people waiting when the lift stops, they wouldn’ty be witnesses to the rape itself, would they? Which would limit the value of any testimony. There is also scant guarantee that anyone who was there would even believe the woman, still less try to help her.
Cameras in the lobby will only show who entered the lift, not what happened inside. Many lifts do not have cameras inside them, and if they are they will not be hidden. It would be a simple matter for a rapist to look for any sign of cameras before attacking his victim.
Because false rape allegations are so common! That is why men live in constant fear of being falsely accused, and must take extra precautions while going out at night, whilst bands of roaming women rule the streets, terrifying whatever poor blokes they meet with faked DNA evidence. This is why we live in a matriarchal society with a well documented dominant false-rape culture that oppresses and marginalises men to the point that they are massively under-represented within the corridors of power, and aggressive objectification and gross sexualisation of men in the media, to a far greater degree than women, is the norm…
Oh, wait a second… there is something wrong with those statements. Can you spot the mistake, rexlittle?
As noted by howard @ 121, the evidence of events like the Steubanville rape and its fallout does not suggest that average bystanders are given to siding with a rape victim against the rapist even when the rape happens before their very eyes, and still less that they will believe the account of events of a rape victim after the fact.
Furthermore, you do understand that, without DNA evidence from a sexual assault kit, a conviction for rape is, to put it mildly, hard to secure? Even leaving aside the repugnant misogyny inherent in your premise, your scenario bears no resemblance whatsoever to reality.
You could have stopped there.
Gen, Uppity Ingrate. @ 123;
Yup – in that scenario rexlittle was sort of asking for it; going out dressed in a provocative, rapist-like fashion. And getting into an elevator with a woman, alone, at that time of the night? I mean, I’m not saying it was necessarily all his fault, but what was he thinking? Doesn’t he know the risks? And I hear he was drinking. Why was he out at that time and inebriated? Talk about increasing your risk factors. Didn’t his father warn him about this stuff? Doesn’t he know any better? If you behave like that, eventually you have to expect to be falsely accused of rape…
Or is he one of those types of men, you know what I mean. The kind of guy who makes a big fuss after the fact, but he is really an attention seeker who wanted to be falsely accused of rape all along, and has now gotten cold feet the morning after…
Hmmm – now why does all that sound so oddly familiar…?
Huh? This whole thread is about fantasies–the ones in the actual ad, and the various proposed alternatives.
And how is mine corrosive? The major point underlying this whole discussion is that the man’s act of pushing the Stop button is threatening to the woman. In my scenario, the threat backfires in a way that makes it clear what he was (however unwittingly) threatening her with.
Gee, sorry, I didn’t make it clear that it was a fantasy scenario, like every other one in the ad and the comments. I do think it’s a bit more plausible than, say, the woman turning out to be Emma Peel (who in any case is now 76 years old and might find it difficult to deliver those incapacitating karate chops).
Huh??? My fantasy scenario (hardly a thought experiment) presumes that the man finds the woman attractive, or he wouldn’t have pushed the button in the first place. It also presumes that the man isn’t so scary looking as to paralyze the woman with fear or intimidate the crowd. I don’t see how anyone’s color plays into it, except that the woman in the original ad is white.
Well, you know, some guys will do anything for attention, including pretending to be accused of rape. Not that I’m saying that rexlittle wasn’t actually accused of rape. Of course not! I’m just saying that some guys make up stuff like that sometimes, and we have to presume innocent until proven guilty. We don’t have all the facts, only one side of the story. Maybe he really DID rape her. Or maybe nothing happened at all.
I’m just saying it’s possible.
rexlittle:
…
“You tell your version of the events. In the end, nothing happens to you, because everyone already knows that women lie and manipulate. And that woman, in particular, she’s untrustworthy. Because reasons, as it’s going to be shown in court if the case ever makes it that far. And besides, she was clearly asking for it anyway. Because reasons. You get pats on the back and sympathetic words for the horrible things that evil woman made you go through. You walk away, having learnt your lesson: whether you’re guilty or not, no one is going to believe her, so next time you may as well…”
That’s how it ends, right?
Sorry, no. We know it’s a “fantasy”. We know that the ad is a “fantasy”. The objections remain; your story plays on and perpetuates harmful cultural stereotypes.
Want your “fantasy” to be read as a fantasy that plays with and ultimately subverts societal expectations?
Don’t have it read like post on AVFM’s “true things that actually happen” section.
So what exactly is your point?
Gen, Uppity Ingrate. @ 128;
We have to take all scenarios into account, afterall, and it is not that we are saying that rexlittle is definitely an immoral little false-rape-accusation enthusiast, but we can’t just go about assuming that what he has said is true. After all, what about the woman’s version of events? We’re just supposed to ignore that because of a mere lack of evidence that she was raped, what with men being so infamously unreliable, overly emotional, given to sexual violence, and generally testerical and all? We have to be reasonable about this.
And even if it was a false accusation, you can sort of see why she did it. I am not condoning it or anything, but there he was, looking all rape-y and sinister, in a lift alone with her late at night. Didn’t he look at himself in a mirror before he went out that night? Didn’t he think how tempting a proposition he might make for a false rape allegation? I mean, that long, dirty trenchcoat, the unkempt appearance, those shifty eyes – he was basically screaming ‘accuse me of rape’ to everyone who walked past. He couldn’t have done much more short of hiding in the bushes. I mean, what woman wouldn’t be tempted to make an allegation against a man who is flaunting their potential rape-iness like that in public…?
Sure, maybe he didn’t rape her, but he basically did everything possible to make it look like he might be the kind of guy who would rape someone. After that, the rest was all but inevitable, and he has to take at least some of the responsibility for that…
It plays into the “women lie and deceive and falsely accuse men of rape, men are the real victims” theme. Even if you didn’t mean it to do so. It does.
You don’t see how the man’s skin colour could determine whether the typical bystander would side for or against him?
(If not, you’re clueless in more ways than I thought.)
No, in your scenario, the woman does something that women are accused of doing every time they report a rape. In your scenario, the woman does something that contributes to the abysmally low rate of conviction for rapes, because everyone is just “so sure” that women fake it. Your scenario is different from the others, because Emma Peel actions are obviously silly, whereas yours is something that people accuse women of doing, again, every time they report a rape.
Esteleth @131:
I never heard of AVFM before. Having just Googled it, I can see what you mean. It wasn’t intended that way; I apologize to those who took it so.
Gregory Greenwood @124:
Not at all. I think women are quite honest in their belief about that risk. I think they overestimate the risk (for the reasons I mentioned), but there are many risks that people (both sexes) commonly overestimate.
Rey Fox @132:
Two points, which probably should have been separated into two posts. The first was my opinion that the actual risk of being raped in an elevator is less than is commonly believed. A throwaway point, really, but I thought that by now the main issues raised by the original post had been gone over with a fine-tooth comb.
Then the scenario popped into my head. To understand where I was trying to go with it, start with the original ad. It depicts over-the-top utopian fantasies happening in reaction to the guy wearing the cologne (or whatever it was they were selling, I forget). I saw mine as sort of a funhouse mirror image of this: an over-the-top dystopian fantasy happening in reaction to the pressing of the Stop button (and the implied threat carried by that action).
Unfortunately, the use of the false rape accusation as a plot vehicle seems to have pushed a lot of people’s buttons.
(One way of looking at it is that it’s not a false accusation at all, at least not knowingly false. If she honestly sees the pressing of the button as a rape threat, everything that follows is self-defense.)
Rexlittle:
You know nothing about the rates of false rale claims.
You know nothing about how often women are raped.
You know nothing about how many women get raped.
You know nothing about how often women speak up about being raped and are not believed.
In short you have demonstrated a lack of even basic knowledge of this subject.
Then to add to that insult, you spin an MRA talking point.
Take a hike you heartless shithead.
More rexlittle:
You came to a feminist blog and spouted refuted Mens Rights Talking Points.
Now, even though you appear to regret regaling us with that offensive fantasy scenario, you do not appear to understand why people are mad. Which makes me question if you, well, UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE ARE MAD.
So tell me, do you get it?
(Also, when you fuck up as bad as you did, don’t offer explanations. Apologize sincerely for the specific offense, and NEVER, NEVER frame it as “I am sorry if anyone was offended…”)
Tony:
I made no statements about rates of false rape claims, how often or how many women are raped, or how often they’re not believed about rape. On what basis do you assess my knowledge, or lack thereof, on any of those subjects?
As for MRA talking points, the only ones of those I’m aware of have to do with divorce, alimony and child custody/support. I’m pretty sure nothing in this thread, much less my comments, has strayed anywhere near these areas.
No, rexlitlle, you had no need to mention precise figures. You relied upon the far more powerful and deeply ingrained negativity and assumptions about the how, where, when and why of rape. You know, the self-justifcatory stuff which is passed from man to boy through the generations. You used all the dog whistles of the rabid male supremacist and if you really did not realise you were doing so that just proves how deeply this rubbish is ingrained.
It’s what makes the effort to point people at actual facts, information, research such a Sisyphean task!
And I endorse Tony @138 on phoney apologies. Either apologise sincerely or belt up, OK? “I am sorry if …” just compounds the offence.
More like you dropped something gross in the pool and ruined the party, and are now standing around going “What are you all looking at me for?”
Oh? Maureen @120 says it’s a science blog. Based on various other posts I’ve seen here, I’d call it an atheism blog. But I won’t quibble with your label; if it walks like a duck. . .
You’re saying one of two things:
1. Using a false (or maybe not false, see @136) rape claim in a fantasy scenario constitutes “spouting a talking point.”
2. Something else.
If 1, bullshit. If 2, I have no idea what you’re talking about.
You’ve got it backwards. I understand why people are mad, but I don’t regret anything I’ve said. I didn’t set out to cause the reaction I did, but having done so, I stand amused.
If this makes my upthread apology sound insincere. . . well, yeah, it kinda was.
So you’re saying it amuses you when women react badly to someone making a joke that goes “ha ha, women fake rape reports, that’s so funny” ?
Really?!
Troll.
Seriously. You just said that you’re amused by the fact that people don’t take it as a joke that women get accused of falsely crying rape, which leads to actual dismissal of actual rapes in the real world and contributes to actual dismissals of rape cases, decreased rates of reporting, and slut-shaming to the degree that the fucking “Paper of Record”, the New York Times, can say that an 11 year old was asking for it.
And that amuses you.
You’re fucking pathetic.
Rexlittle the insensitive asswipe who is perpetuating Myths About Rate that faaaaar too many men believe and if he understood why that is harmful he would sincerely apologize:
…
That about covers it, actually.
Carlie @143: No, but I haven’t seen such a joke made here.
Oh wait, you’re saying that I made that joke? Well, it does amuse me when people (of either sex) display their lack of reading comprehension.
As plainly as I can do it, rexlitle, this is both a science blog and a feminist blog.
Feminism is simply the idea that women are fully human, an hypothesis which science in all its relevant manifestations confirms. The tests and experiments are repeatable.
Q.E.D.
Everything done after the fact, the denial, the attempts at shifting blame (first it was intent, not comprehension; now it’s comprehension only), the “looks like I touched a nerve” statement, the seemingly accusatory “walks like a duck. . .” cliche with regard to feminism, the fact that they “stand amused” rather than “bowed apologetically”… It’s fairly obvious where rexlittle is coming from and what their purpose truly was in making their initial “joke.”
Obvious troll is obvious. 0/10
Based on pure speculation and pretty much no evidence whatsoever. And not really all that relevant to the experience of anyone who suddenly finds themselves trapped in an enclosed space with a stranger.
I still don’t see the point. Except trolling. And you’ve done nothing to disabuse me of that notion.
Bullshit. No one is that naïve.
Yeah, we understood what you were doing. It wasn’t sophisticated humor. What you’re missing is that women live in the dystopian reality wherein they are accused of doing exactly that when they are the victims. That kind of makes it not funny.
You created a hypothetical situation dependent on false rape reports, which were long ago refuted, later claiming to be amused and non apologetic.
You pissed off people bc rather than discuss this subject with the care and seriousness it deserves–because every day, women across the planet deal with the very real ramifications of rape and rape culture, not hypotheticals*–you chose to present a scenario that strains belief to the point that many of us realized your opinion of this subject is woefully lacking at best and horrifically misinformed or even willfully ignorant at worst.
Your hypothetical has very little to do with reality, and as an exercise was utterly pointless (that you think you made a point highlights your ignorance on this subject, hence my earlier comments about all the things you did not know about).
And now, rather than thinking about the responses you have received, rather than take some time to reflect in the criticism, you just double down and make an even bigger ass of yourself.
Every time you post, you show no hint of understanding why people are upset. You dismiss the women in this thread who are justifiably offended. You show a lack of compassion and empathy in your comments as well as an inability to accept criticism or even reflect on the possibility that you did something wrong.
Stop trying to see this through the lens of your personal experience and
FUCKING LISTEN TO WHAT WOMEN ARE SAYING.
*yes, there are cases of false rape. They happen so rarely that they are insignificant in my book. If we ever live in a world where actual rape and false rape occur with the same frequency, MAYBE I will take that idiocy more seriously. At the moment, and likely the rest of my life, that ain’t gonna happen. Because all the ostracization and hate and criticism a man could get from a false rape report is insignificant compared to violating the bodily autonomy of women.
For any lurkers out there, rexlittle’s #142 implies that he does not see an intersection between:
1- Science
2- Feminism
and
3: Atheism
Through the pursuit of knowledge about the world around us, one can reach the conclusion that:
1– there is insufficient evidence to believe in any deity
AND
2–that there is no reasonable, evidence based justification for women being anything other than equal to men.
2b–rejecting belief in a deity and rexamining your beliefs as they were affected by a god delusion can lead to feminism as well
No, not everyone believes they are related (as we have seen in the last few years in this community), but I made no claim to that. I said this was a feminist blog (it is). It is also a science blog. It is also an atheism blog.
In fact, PZ has been pretty explicit about the connections between all three.
Tony:
Fine, I’m an ass who lacks compassion and empathy. I’ve been called worse (ironically, for making atheist talking points on a blog dominated by evangelicals). However,
What personal experience? The closest I’ve ever come to a false rape charge was reading about the Duke lacrosse team case. And the fact that that made national news is evidence of how rare false rape charges are, not the opposite.
That’s true so long as the false report doesn’t lead to a false conviction. I have it on good authority (from someone who has spent time behind bars) that rapists rate just above child molesters in the prison food chain. (I was actually surprised to learn this. I don’t deny that rape is too often excused, and I had thought that would hold true in prison as well.)
Oooh! I like this one! “You think you want some fantasy, guys? You can’t handle fantasy!”
–
“The first rule of
Fight ClubRape Culture is that you do not talk aboutFight ClubRape Culture.”–
More than there are rape frame-ups, I’d guess.
In connection with which: Does the “protect yourselves” advice guys are given (say, in the wake of real (or rumored) false rape accusations)(oh…wait…first we must ask, “are there such advice sessions typically organized which all guys are encouraged to attend, in the wake of such incidents?”) include, “Men, never get into an elevator alone with a strange woman”? I’ve never heard of such; but then, I wouldn’t have, would I? I’m not a guy in danger of such a frame-up.
–
But it quacks so very much like the rape culture apologists’ “But what about the men falsely accused of rape because she changed her mind???” rejoinder, that it’s hardly shocking if it is taken for a duck.
Or at the very least, a grebe.
–
Fine. My point was poorly expressed. I should have said “stop looking at this based on your personal opinions and listen to the lived experiences of the women who live with this shit”.
Go take a while and read about rape culture. Talk to people about their experiences with rape culture. Ask questions in the appropriate venues.
But for love of Zeus, shut up and listen.
rexlittle, if you are not trolling, then maybe you need to Lurk Moar. A lot Moar.
Greater familiarity with this blog (and a reasonable amount of thought on your part) would have suggested that your “dystopian fantasy” wouldn’t go over as well as a lead balloon.
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not trolling
jaq
jaq
jaq
If such advice were given, it might well include “Never get into an elevator alone with a strange woman, and then press the Stop button.” That was the point of my scenario, however you might feel about how it was made.
If you think about it, someone dumb and/or misogynist enough to actually press that button in real life might also believe that my scenario could really happen to him if he did, and be deterred for that reason. (He certainly won’t refrain out of respect for women.) So if my scenario were shown as a counter to the original ad, it might conceivably change someone’s behavior for the better.
(Yes, I know, even if it changes behavior, it doesn’t change their thinking, and rape-culture attitudes get reinforced. I’ve long since given up on changing anyone’s thinking.)
I saw what you were going for, rexlittle. And I sighed, because I knew it wasn’t going to go over well. I’ve done the “He’s just ASKING to be accused of rape” thing before, but the thing is, I’ve never fabricated an actual narrative of a false accusation because that’s just too sensitive and too fraught. Better luck next time. Also, a little more humility and a little less “You are all too sensitive and dumb and humorless to get me!” would be in order. It’s not that nobody gets you. It’s that we’ve seen that narrative before, only totally presented totally sincerely, and it’s not far enough away from the real narratives of misogynists for it to succeed as humor or satire.
Don’t hold your breath. They must have been handing out humility the same day as empathy and compassion, and I took the day off to pull wings off flies.
For the record, while I do consider you (collectively) to be sensitive and humorless, I don’t consider you (again, collectively) dumb. It may have seemed like I was talking down at @136, but that was a response to a specific question (“What is your point?”). The individual who asked that question might be dumb, but that doesn’t reflect on the rest of you.
Forgot to mention:
is the best summary of the point of my scenario that anyone, including me, has come up with.
The odor of rotting wood from a long buried stump is wafting into my nostrils now… Could it be?
[meta]
rexlittle:
What?
Your furious backpedalling doesn’t obscure the fact that there is only one category of circumstances that merits that button (and they all involve an emergency), but you think it’s the wrong thing to do because it’s likely to backfire.
(You’ve actually bought into its trope!)
Obviously, your consideration is (collectively) not reciprocated.
rexlittle:
“Sheesh! Why are you people so sensitive! It’s just rape, fer cryin’ out loud, not anything serious!
Lighten up – real people know rape’s plenty funny!”
and…
“But WHAT about THE MENZ??!!??”
No, it won’t, because it does not address the actual problem. It does not tell people not to rape or even intimidate women, it just reinforces the notion that Bitchez Lie and actual rape accusations are likely to be false.
Considering how it took you a good dozen comments or so to finally get to your point, then I think it was a valid question. Particularly given the typical attitude of people who post false rape accusation scenarios.
rexlittle @ 160;
Even if it did deter such behaviour, it would only do so by trading on the toxic, misogynistic trope that women are compulsive liars who are likely to make false rape accusations against a man at any opportunity. A trope that does immense harm to women, since it leads to a widespread preconception that any report of rape by a woman must be viewed as highly suspect, leading to low reporting rates, low rates of actioning those rapes that are reported, and low conviction rates when those cases go to trial. The attitude that women habitually lie about rape is not some abstract talkling point diviorced from daily life. It regularly leads directly to real rape victims being denied the protection of the due process of the legal system.
Changing peoples’ minds is difficult but acheiveable over long time frames – that is why slavery went from being viewed as a cornerstone of a successful economy to being rightly identified as the abominable commodification and abuse of innocent people that we know it to be today. However, it is not difficult at all to contribute to the reinforcement of beliefs and attitudes that a person already holds.
Every time someone uncritically references the common memes about women lying about rape, this reinforces the notion that most or all women are untrustworthy when it comes to rape allegations in the minds of those who already buy into the misogyny or groups like AVFM and other MRAs. It reinforces the belief in the minds of potential rapists that what they have done before and/or intend to do is not really rape, just one of those flighty, mendacious woman changing her mind after the fact, and that the bulk of other men think the same way they do. It may also embolden rapists to rape, in the belief that even if they are caught their victim is unlikely to be believed, and will probably not even bother to report the rape because it is unlikely that anything will come of such a report, and even if action is taken then the victim will most likely be under greater scrutiny, and will have more blame apportioned to her by society, than the rapist will.
Your words have impact, even if you do not realise the fact, and should be chosen with commensurate care, if for no other reason than to mitigate any potential damage that may be caused.
No, the point of your scenario was “Never get into an elevator alone with a strange woman, and then press the Stop button, because bitchez lie and you might be wrongfully accused of rape”.
The corollary to such brilliant argumentation is “Don’t believe a woman coming out of the elevator and crying rape”. Which kinda make the point of educating men useless, don’t you think?
It amazes me that you are daft enough to call us dumb for calling you out for your idiocy.
That, of course, assuming you’re genuinely clueless and not another troll JAQing off all over us.
Yeah, and then you wonder why people have problems with the shit that spews from your mouth.
There are times I have believed it nigh-impossible to change peoples’ minds. While I am not certain, I suspect this frustration follows yet another horrific story of human brutality or evil. The rape, violence, murders, child abuse, misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, gender or racial inequalities, corruption in politics, human suffering…yes, it is deeply frustrating. It is wearying. It does seem like changing minds is impossible.
If that were true, womens rights, civil rights, gay rights…all these advancements would not have happened. They did. Advancing toward equality happens. Not on the massive scale that would be preferred, but on a smaller scale. Often a personal, one on one scale.
I wonder if the large scale atrocities overshadow the individual achievements made on a daily basis.
Here’s an example of why “she’s faking it” isn’t funny.